Corrupt Discipline in your Church gives ground of separation from you His Fifth and Last Proposition That though we have a just Cause to refuse Communion with the Church whereof we are members in some instances yet we are not therefore to proceed to so total a separation from it as to Erect a New Church in Contra-distinction to it or to joyn with those that do The Reason he gives is because we are bound to obey as far as we can but at no hand to disturb the Peace To the Reason I Briefly answer that these Ministers and People obey as far as they can when they by obeying neither commit sin or what they suspect to be sin or when they neglect not some known duty Daniel might not obey when he was forbid praying for some days to the true God But for the Ministers of Christ not to go on in their Ministeriall work and for the People not to enjoy all ordinances is to neglect known duties in some things only and not in these they suspect and therefore such a separation is Lawfull notwithstanding his Reason and now I answer to the Proposition I may very well doubt whether this proposition be universally true when this very Author himself grants it is not For if a Church be so greatly and generally Corrupt in Doctrine and Practice as the Church of Rome so that the Salvation of those that Communicate with her be indanger'd it is then not only lawfull to separate but to Erect a new Church this he confesseth in a very few lines following Thus he hath provided wisely good shelter for himself his from the first charge of his proposition with respect to the Church of Rome whilest he hath left the poor Non-conformists to shift as they can with respect to their own Church but by his leave I shall make bold with his own evasion for a covert to them also from this storm for what though the Corruptions and Doctrines and Practices be not so great and so generall in an other Church as theirs in the Church of Rome yet if they be but so many and so great as to endanger their Salvation it is sufficient to warrant such a separation And now if you will give me leave I will tell you how these People concieve their Salvation is indangered through your corruptions If they should not separate as they do I say then These outed Ministers do not wonder if they conceive it is by reason of the corruptions that many hundreds of them have been cast out and silenced as much as in them lies and why because they will not swear and forswear assent and consent to all that they would have them by reason whereof they are reduced to these straits either to swear and do as you would have them and that against their Consciences or else to wrap their Tallants through slavish fear like slothful Servants in a Napkin and forsake the work of the Ministry which their Lord has intrusted them with if they do the former they like wicked Hypocrites will go against their own Consciences and so will indanger their Salvation or else like false and treacherous Stewards must desert their masters work and so incurre the doom of such Stewards so that let them look on the right hand or on the left they see nothing but damnation what then is left for them to do but to go on in their work as now they do for their own safety that is to Preach Teach Father and Rule his People which you are pleased to call the erecting of new Churches which as I said is no more than to do the duty of Christs Ministers and therefore cannot justly be charged on them as their sin You call these erected Churches new and what if they be new in respect to the time of their rise that is not their fault but if you consider them with respect to their rule either of their Worship or Government so they may be more Antient than your own for such Societies of Christians that meet with Christs Ministers to worship God according to the way of the Gospel Churches without imposed Forms of Prayer or without the use of any superstitiously imposed vestments or when they meet to Administer Sacraments without any impertinent superstitious use of the sign of the Crosse or to Eat the Supper in a Feastival posture as Christ and his Apostles did or such Churches that are governed by Christs Officers and such Presbyters unquestionably are not by lay Chancellors unheard of in the first Churches where nothing is imposed on the Members but what Christ by command hath made necessary and nothing censured as scandalous and threatned with Excommunion but that that is an evident transgressors of Gods laws as Drunkenness Whoredome Swearing are in a manner connived at or if at any time censured in some poor People the censure is upon very slight grounds taken off upon a very slight and formal Repentance or the payment of a few groats But where the transgression of a Ceremonious law or a Tradition of the Elders is dealt with as a sin unpardonable fines imprisonments silencing banishments Excommunications are punishments all thought little enough for so great a scandal Let now any man well consider both these sorts of Churches both as to their way of Worship Administration of Sacraments or way of Government and then tell me whether of them are more conformable to the Antient Apostolical pattern and so which of them deserve the name of old and which of new Churches But notwithstanding all this peradventure you will say that we have broke the Unity of the National Church which we ought to have preserved I Answer we have but broke it by accident and you perceive but by accident for no man can be said to sin or to be a Peace-breaker when he is but doing his duty and I conceive it hath been proved that we do no more Elijah was charged with being the troubler of Israel and the Apostles with turning the world upside down and yet they were faultless But you rather are breakers of it per so for do but you impose no more up-us than Christ our Lord hath done either by Himself or his Apostles as necessary conditions of Communion and be but you willing to receive these as Ministers and Members which Christ receives and owns and I dare say we shall soon enjoy a blessed Peace and that upon Righteous Foundations which Christ would certainly bless and cause to last but if you will drive us to such straits as that either we must wound our Consciences by a sinful compliance with you at least with such a compliance that we suspect sinful or else live in the neglect of our known duties and without the enjoyment of some Ordinances I beseech you blame us not for what we do for you your selves have made it necessary this I think is a sufficient answer to your fifth and last proposition which being all you have said that directly concerns us I shall take the boldness to conclude with your own words I am verily perswaded that I have said nothing in this my reply but what is very agreeable to Scripture and reason and the sence of the best and Antientest i. e. Apostolical Christians and Churches FINIS
SEPARATION YET NO Schisme OR NON-CONFORMISTS NO SCHISMATICKS BEING A full and Sober VINDICATION of the NON-CONFORMISTS from the Charge and Imputation of SCHISME IN Answer to a Sermon lately Preached before the Lord Mayor By J. S. Isaiah 66.5 Hear the Word of the Lord ye that tremble at his Word your Brethren that hated you that cast you out for my Names sake said Let the Lord be glorified but he shall appear to your joy and they shall be ashamed London Printed in the year 1675. To the Reader Reader IF thou wouldst have a reason of publishing these sheets the Author will tell thee That it is now about four years since the People he pleads for among whom he believes there are thousands in the Land that are Worshippers of God in Spirit and Truth according to the Gospel have through the good Providence of their great Shepherd the Lord Jesus Christ and through the granted license of an indulgent Prince enjoyed a sweet and blessed Calm But observing lately the Clouds again to gather and to have begun to discharge themselves upon many of this People about England and withal lately meeting with a Sermon wherein this People are not sparingly charged with Schism and the penalties where with the laws threaten them are pleaded for as very innocent harmless things that Sober men as he says may be ashamed to call persecutions I could not but thence conclude that the Authors drift was to stir up and encourage the chief Magistrates of the City for to them the Sermon was preached to a rigorous Execution of those gentle punishments which are but such little things as banishing or imprisoning or spoyling them of their Goods and so undoing them and their Families which are very trifles in his account Now what can probably be the consequents hereof except the Magistrates as David prove wiser than their Teachers but that this people must needs be smitten impoverished scattered and as to their outward concernments ruined But if this shall come to passe and who knows what their God may permit for a time for their tryal what will they have left to support and comfort them under such pressures except the innocency of their Consciences and the Righteousness of the cause for which they suffer And this I say whether their cause be good or bad doth not as to the determination depend upon the meer dictates of any Mortals and I am very verily perswaded it is not prsedtsdih be bad by all this Author hath said although he ha oved to cour and reasoned against it as if in his conceit he had spoke nothing but demonstrations which I should now have immediately begun to reply to but that I thought it most expedient first to give the Reader a view of the case and cause of the Non-conformists for which they are charged of Schism and are thought to have deserved all those severities which the law threatens The Non-Conformists case is this There are some hundreds of true Ministers of Jesus Christ commissioned by him to Preach the Gospel and to administer the Sacraments for so all true Ministers are those according to their commission do Preach and there are many thousands likewise of visible professors of Christianity do willingly hear and joyn with these Ministers in the Worship of God and in a participation of Sacraments as the Gospel requires These meet in dictinct Congregations separate from the legally established Congregations in the Land with whom they Will not because they Cannot hold Communion Because they thus separate and refuse Communion they are charged with Schisme The reason why they thus separate and refuse Communion is because they cannot have it with them I say they Cannot have it because they cannot or ought not to sin or to speak modestly because they cannot do such things which they extreamly suspect to be sinful and if they do but strongly suspect them it is enough for no man can be bound to act against a doubting Conscience and herein I have the suffrage of the Apostle which every good Christian ought much to preferre before any other who may presume to Philosophize to the contrary who says Rom. 14. he that doubteth is damned if he eat because he eateth not of Faith for whatsoeover is not of Faith is sin If it be demanded what those things are which this people suspect as sinful It may be answered they are too well known as that any among us should stand in need of an information but briefly those that are Ministers either they suspect the sinfulness of admitting a re-ordination or of abjuring or of assenting and consenting to the use of all and every part of the Liturgy and therein of every Ceremony Now this I say though the Friends of these impositions shall with the highest confidence affirm the lawfulness of them all yea and endeavour with a thousand arguments to prove them such yet if those Ministers herein concerned upon a serious weighing of these arguments find them too light and after much prayer to God for a resolution yet find themselves to doubt in this case they ought not upon the Apostles rule now named to yeild to any such impositions against their doubting Consciences If it be here replyed why do they not then degrade themselves or quietly suffer themselves to be degraded of their Ministry and in the condition of private Christians Communicate with this Church for so they may do and free themselves from these impositions It will be answered that this is an imposition they suspect as sinful as the rest for so long as they are perswaded that their mission is originally from Christ they cannot believe that it is either in their own Power or in the Power of any other Inferiour to Christ to give them a discharge from executing this their Office except it be for Heresie or obstinate scandal against some known laws of Christ and then indeed Christ hath left an order not only for excluding them from their Office but also from the Church but neither of these latter are in the least pretended and therefore it is they cannot without suspicion of sin either degrad themselves or quietly suffer themselves to be degraded And still I adde if any reasons be urged for the lawfulness of this degradation but such that are short of their conviction so that still they doubt it will continue yet their duty to serve the Church as Ministers and not to list themselves among private Christians as is advised If it be asked but may not supream Magistrates if they cannot divest Ministers of their Office may not they within their Dominion suspend some of them from the exercise thereof when they conceive it is for the Peace of the rest It will be answered that that Lord of Lords who giveth the Office and the Commission and hath by divers Providences designed the men thereto hath certainly with the Office designed them to the exercise thereof for else verily the Office is in vain and hath
from censuring their brethren as being to stand or fall to a higher Master he censureth them as guilty of Schism obstinately maintained pag. 7. And instead of perswading them to forbear doing those things which some think they may lawfully do as the making use of prescribed Prayers and Ceremonies least a stumbling block should be cast before their weak brethren he falls pag. 5. into Encomiums of the excellency of the present Church Government the easiness of the Terms of Communion the Lawfulness of the use of the publick Service and Antiquity of the Ceremonies and then doth conclude that Sober men should be ashamed to call the penalties which the Laws inflict on those that separate from the Church in these things Persecutions The plain English of all this is that the great Apostle and this Person are of two minds concerning these things which make for Peace the Apostle is for not judging the Lords Servants and he is for judging them The Apostle is still for holding Communion notwithstanding those differences remain but he is for forcing them to say and do as the Church doth or else for punishing them with fines imprisonments as the Laws require But certainly as he herein leaves the Apostle so the Apostle leaves him and in this deserted Condition as we find him I hope it will be no presumption to call his reasonings about this matter to an account The strength of what he hath said to justifie his charge of Schisme against this people he hath comprised in five Propositions which we shall examine in order His first Proposition begins pag 10. which is this That every Christian upon the very account of being so is a member of the Church of Christ and is bound to joyn in external Communion with it where it can be had I answer this Proposition is very obscurely laid down nor is it releived by any light afforded in the after explication and certainly if it be to be understood according to the proper meaning of the words and phrases therein contained as it ought to be I shall not scruple to call the Truth thereof into Question For. First If we consider a Christian upon the very account of his being so which is the Subject of the Proposition who can think but thereby as you phrase it you intend to affirm nothing of him as such but what doth necessarily and essentially belong to him without which he could be no Christian and consequently if he be a Christian he must necessarily be a Member of Christs Church in the sence of Church in the Proposition which is such as therewith an external Communion may be held If this be your meaning as I suppose it is because in your explication of this Proposition you seem to hold that Christ died primarily for his Church and but in a secondary sence for individual Believers so that it seems to follow that none can be true Christians or in a salvable state but as they are considered incorporated into and so made one of this Church so that Church-Member-ship is esâ—ential to them If this I say be your meaning then give me leave to take the boldness to deny the Proposition for I cannot understand that a Christian as such includes any essential relation to a Church in your sence That I may clear up this matter a little give me leave to tell you that this term Christian may fall under divers considerations as first by a Christian we may understand a man whose Nature is changed by the Preaching of the Gospel so as thereby he is of an ignorant Infidel and wicked man made an intelligent Believer and a good man certainly in this sence it is easie to understand a Christian without any such correlate as a Church so that in this sence a Christian as such is no more related to a Church than a man considered as a man speaks any Relation to a Kingdom or Common-wealth and therefore your Proposition in this scence cannot be true But because this change of Nature can't be wrought in any man but by the Power of God co-working with the Gospel and since this exertion of Power is called Regeneration upon this account a Christian is to be considered as a relative viz. as a Son of God the correlate is God his Father and the Foundation of this Relation is Regeneration But here a Christian is not considered as any ways related to a Church but only as realted to God and who is not able to understand a Christian as well as Adam to be a Son of God without any Relation to any Society of men whatever But since it is certain that God hath exerted this Regenerating Power to more than one and that he hath many Sons and Daughters hence it is that every Son of God stands in an other Relation and that is to all the rest that are in the same manner born of God which in conjunction make up Gods family or Church But them I say that the Church here is to be taken for the invisible Church for the Father or Head of this Family is the invisible God and the Children are Members who considered as to their Regeneration that is the Foundation of the Relation are also invisible and therefore neither in this sence can the Proposition be true for every Christian upon the account of his internal Membership is not therefore a Member of a visible Church for there may be 7000 such invisible Members in Israel when there was no appearance of a visible Church as to them where any external Communion was held and yet this is that the Proposition drives at that every Christian as such is a Member of such a Church with which external Communion may be held which is in this sence apparently false Yet again all these internal Members of God's Family may be considered as outwardly professing their Faith and associateing together as they can for the Worship of God among whom creep in many Hypocrites by professing the same Faith and joyning in the same Worship with them which together make up the Catholick Visible Church in this sence I grant that every professing Christian may be reckoned as a Member of the Catholick visible Church But yet I deny that this relation is essential and necessary to him upon the very account of his being a Christian for he might be a Believer and a Son of God and internally related to all invisible Members without this Catholick visible Membership nor doth he indeed deny it for in case says he that no such visible Church can be found or in case they be scattered by extream Persecution or in case of an unjust excommunication Christians may be Christians without being members of Christs visible Church which indeed are concessions that overturn the Truth of his Proposition for if a man may be a Christian without being a Member of Christs visible Church then it can not be true that every Christian upon the very account of his being so is a
so to do why else do you call this a clearing of that now it is evident you take Church in the Proposition for the Catholick visible Church existing in the World with whom you say an external Communion is to be sought as hath been before shew'd But how absurd is what you say if you take Church in this sence For First you hereby say that Christ did primarily design to save this present existing Catholick Church what can be more absurd did not Christ think you as primarily design all those parts of his Church that in their past Generations did once exist here on Earth and doth not he alike design to save that part that is yet to be born Again you herein say that Christ primarily designed to save the Catholick visible Church which is evidently false for Christ never designed to save his visible Catholick Church much lesse considered as visible and therefore cannot be said Primarily to design Their Salvation for Christs design was to save only a part of his visible Church and that part not considered as visible but as invisibly united to himself by a livving Faith Yet again if the quite contrary be true viz. That Christ first designed the Salvation of particular Christians and but in a secondary sence the Church that is made up of them then what you say must needs be false viz. that Christ designed Salvation to the Church primarily and to particular Members secondarily as in Union with the Church The former of which I affect for these reasons First Because all individual sincere Christians have all qualifications that are absolutely necessary to Salvation antecedently to a visible Church state as actual Faith and Repentance if they be adult or the promise of the Covenant upon their Parents Faith if they be Infants which are Foundations of and give Title to a visible Church State Therefore our Saviour primarily designed to save them as such and as for his designing such to be admitted into a visible Church State by Baptism it was but to Seal that Salvation to them and to promote and carry on that Salvation that was antecedently secured to them by the Covenant upon their Repentance and Faith in the Lord Jesus the very Truth is Christ did not intend at all to save men as visible Church Members but only as true Believers for the fundamental saving Doctrine of the Gospel doth not run thus he that is a Member of the visible Church shall be saved but he that Believeth shall be saved and he that Believeth not shall be damned If it be objected But doth not the Apostle Peter Preach not only Repentance but likewise Baptism as necessary to Remission of sins and consequently to Salvation when he says Repent and be Baptized every one of you for the Remission of sins And is not Baptisme an Ordinance of admission into a visible Church State Acts 2.30 I answ they are both indeed commanded but not as equally necessary for Repentance gives the fundamental title to remission Baptisme doth only give the Seal the former is so necessary that without it no remission can be obtained the other is but for the more comfortable assurance of that priviledge to the penitent but not absolutely necessary as the other and this our Saviour most clearly intimates when he saith Mark 16.16 He that Believeth and is Baptized shall be saved but he that Believeth not shall be damned Men shall be damned meerly upon the account of their unbelief and not meerly for want of Baptism provided they have Faith And yet Baptism hath its great use as I have acknowledged but as I said not absolutely necessary for if men only Believe and never have an opportunity of being Baptized and so of being admitted into a visible Church state thereby then Salvation is not at all hazarded My next reason is this It cannot be true that Christ only designed to save particular Christians as Members of the visible Church because it were impossible then that any Christians that were not visible Church Members should be saved for if it must fare with particular Christians with respect to this body Politick as he is pleased to call it the Church as it doth with the Members of the natural Body where it is confest that God by his Providence only intends to give life to each Member and likewise the continuance of Life as united together in one body it will certainly follows that if any Member of the Church be separated from the Church it must necessarily perish as if a hand or a foot were separated from the natural body it doth certainly perish But by his leave this is very false as to particular Christians with respect to the Church for first all Christians do not spring out of the Church as the Members of the natural body do out of that body for when Infidels belive they spring out of the World or Masse of mankind and not out of the Church and by believing are first united to Christ and then as Saul converted they essay to joyn themselves to the Church so that first they are internal members of a Church or are fit matter to be made members of and afterwards making a profession of Faith are made formal Members of a visible Church which is solemnized by Baptisme Secondly and if it so happen that by unjust excommunication any true Christian be cut off from the visible Church yet it keeps its Life as no Member in a natural body can do The conclusion is this that if Christians are in a salvable state before Union to a visible Church and if they may be in a salvable state when wrongfully cut off by Excommunication then it cannot be true that Christ did but in a secondary way intend the Salvation of particular Christians viz. as united to a Church My third and last reason is this I say Christ did not primarily design to save his Church and but secondarily particular Members as he asserts which I thus prove That respect which individual men have to civil Society as Kingdomes or Republicks that respect have particular Christians to the visible Church of Christ according to his own notion of a Church which he considers as a body Politick Now I say God in making the World did not primarily design Kingdomes and Commonwealths but he primarily designed the giving of particular men their existences and secondarily Kingdoms and Republicks for their better accommodation Men were not made for Kingdoms but Kingdoms for Men. Therefore so did Christ he first designed the putting of particular men into a State of Salvation by giving to them Faith and Repentance and Remission of sins and then designed as a consequent thereof to collect them into a Society or Societies under Governours of his appointment to be ruled by Laws of his own Ordination for the building them up in their Faith and comforts to his Glory so that this Society or Societies of Church or Churches with the Laws and Ordinances thereto
belonging are but for the sakes and subordinated to the welfare of particular Christians and therefore it is necessary that Christ should first intend the welfare or Salvation of particulars before the meer associating them into Church or Churches under government which is but a means to that great end of saving particulars For certainly that which is more excellent in the Nature of things is primarily designed by every rational Agent before that which is lesse excellent so certainly is the restauration of particular Persons in giving them renewed Natures Remission of sins and a Title to Salvation before that meer order that ought to be amongst them for their security and comfort which is acquired by associations or Church Government If it yet be not clear give me leave to illustrate this matter yet further by this similitude Let us consider Christ as the general of an Army who is by the Apostle called the Captain of our Salvation and the Church under him as an Army under several Officers for their better Order and Government and all particular Christians as so many particular Souldiers Now let us consider the several ends which a general hath in gathering his Souldiers into an Army and which end is more principally intended and which end lesse principally or subordinately intended His first end is to subdue his Enemies to the Praise of his Justice and Valour the next end intended is the preservation of his Souldiers without which the more principal end cannot be obtained and that which is an end subordinate to both these is the keeping his Souldiers in Union and Order under their several Officers for without this Union and Order the particular Souldiers cannot so well be preserved so that here it is evident that the uniting of his Men and keeping them under Discipline is subordinately intended for the preservation of particulars In like manner God in Christ designing to save sinners First he intends the Praise of his Glorious Grace Secondly he intends the Salvation of particular sinners by Regenerating and pardoning of them And lastly he intends the Collection of them into a body or bodies under Discipline for their better safety and security this last is not principally or lesse principally but that which is subordinately intended to both the other The conclusion that ariseth hence is this that this Author is much mistaken when he saith that Christ did primarily intend the Salvation of his Church and secondarily the Salvation of particular Christians cujus contrarium verum est as I have shewed We shall now further consider what he hath said for the confirmation of this his nation concerning Christs primary intention to save his Church c. This saith he is no more than what is the sence and Language of the Holy Scriptures wherein whatever Christ is said to have done and suffered for mankind he is said to have done for them not as scattered individuals but as incorporated into a Church Thus Christ sav'd the Church Eph. 5.25 Act. 20.25 Eph. 5.23 and gave himself for it Christ Redeemed the Church with his own precious Blood Christ is the Saviour of his Body The plain consequence from hence is saith he that every person so far as he is a Christian so far he is a Member of the Church and by virtue of that Relation to the Church it is that he hath any Relation to Christ or any Title to the Priviledges of the Gospel I answer it is a wonder to me to see the Authour otherwise a Person of good abilities so strangely misled into the confidence of a conclusion that is raised upon such palpable mistaken principals He says that what ever Christ hath done and suffered for mankind he hath done it for them not as scattered individuals but as incorporated into a Church I perceive by this that the Authour is not for Universal Redemption as some of his brethren are for I cannot see how Christ dying for all is consistent with Christ's dying for men considered as incorporated into his Church for it is certain that the greatest number of individuals that hath been or are in the World were or are not like to be so incorporated Yet further certainly the Author doth run himself and his Reader into much confusion for want of a Regular stating of the several Aspects which Christs sufferings have to mankind as they fall under divers considerations As first if mankind be considered as lapsed into a state of sin and death so they are said to be Enemies to God and Righteousness Dead in Trespasses and sins without God without hope I hope the Author doth not take men so considered as in any Church state and yet it is certain that according to Scriptures Christs suffering was with Relation to men as such Rom. 5.8 God commendeth his Love towards us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us So Col. 1.21 And you that were sometime alienated and Enemies in your mind by wicked works yet now hath he reconciled in the Body of his Flesh through Death In these Texts it 's evident that Christ's death respected men as incoporated in the corrupt Masse of mankind and not as incorporated into a Church Secondly Christs sufferings respects men considered as such that de futuro were to partake of the benefits of Christ's Death which benefits are either of an absolute or of a Relative and Politick Consideration Those that are absolute are such as the changing of mens Natures Remission of Sins Faith in Christ Repentance from dead Work these are all given and bestowed on en with respect to what Christ did and suffered for them Here men are to be considered absolutely as individual Christians and not as any members of a Society or a Church for I can as any man else may easily consider a man as a Believer as a Penitent as in favour with God without considering him under any Politick Relations as we may conceive of men as wise just and innocent without conceiving them as Citizens or Subjects There are other benefits that are likewise the purchase of Christs death and they are of a relative and Politick consideration and here it is that the Communion of the Saints or church Fellow-ship hath its place which Communion is either internal and this is a priviledge peculiar only to that Church of Christ which every Member is considered as really and sincerely united to Christ by a true Faith and to each other in a love unfeigned or external which properly belongs to Christians co-united together in an external profession of Faith in associating for publick worship and submitting to Christs Discipline Now of all these benefits some are more principall some less some are of absolute necessity to Salvation others not Those that are of a more principal consideration and of absolute necessity to Salvation are such that belong to Christians as individuals such as Faith and Repentance Remission of sins and such like which they have by virtue of Union
so in your sence I am sure not all or but very few for Christianity objectively is the doctrine of Christ subjectively the same Doctrine as believed by us with a resolution to obey it but assuredly the Doctrine of Christ is first preached and heard and believed and a resolution taken up to obey it and all this is antecedent in the adult to baptisme or ought to be so As for Baptisme it is but a professing sign of my being a Christian or a seal of the promises that God hath made to me as such and is not a Ceremony that makes me a Christian or gives me my Christianity Abraham was a Believer and a Friend of God and justified by his faith antecedent to circumcision and so are the seed of Abraham they are believers friends of God justified by their Faith in Christ antecedent to Baptisme But it is added doth not Paul say we are all by one Spirit baptized into one body True he doth so But I deny your consequence thence deduced that therefore Christ died primarily for his Church and but secondarily for the individual members thereof or that we have primarily a relation to the Church and but secondarily to Christ i.e. by virtue of the former relation There is not one word or syllable in the text tending that way For First what is there in these words we are baptized into one body to signifie a priority of our relation to the Church any more than in those Rom. 6.3 where it is said we are baptized into Christ to signifie a priority of our relation to Christ and by him to his Church reconcile these if you can to the sence of your consequence and give us some evident reason why we must needs understand that thereby is meant we are baptized into the Church primarily and into Christ secondarily But I shall be bold to tell you such an interpretation is evidently absurd as is manifest in several instances in other kind of relations Whoever said that King Charles the 2d was only related to Charles the First as he is related to his brother James Duke of York and the rest of the Royal Family certainly as he is the Elder Brother his relation to his Father was first both in nature and time to any relation he stood in to his younger brethren Or whoever said that the individuals of a Kingdome cannot be considered in relation to their King and Soveraign antecedently to their being considered as fellow subjects when certainly the relation of fellow subjects doth arise upon the supposed relation of those individuall subjects to their soveraign for the formal reason why you and I are fellow subjects is because we are individually related to the same King and therefore relation to him is antecedent to our relation to one another as subjects The sence of this text now urged so far as I understand is only this that all that are baptized upon a just title are supposed to partake of the sanctifying operation of the Spirit of which the washing of the water of baptisme is a sign by which they are declared to be animated by one and the self-same Spirit as all the living members of Christ are and consequently that they are one with them and that therefore they ought all of them to be both internally and externally as usefull and helpfull to each other as possibly they can But how you can draw such a conclusion hence that therefore these individuals are no ways related to Christ but as they are thus united to one another I cannot understand for the reasons before given The other text is Eph. 5.22 where it is said that Christ hath sanctified or separated his Church by the washing of water and the word Very well what of this we grant you that every Church member if adult is converted by the word and afterward if it may be ought to be baptized upon this account it is said that the Church is separated by water and the word because all its individual members are or ought to be so converted and baptized Therefore saith he every individual Christian is saved as incorporated into the Church I deny the consequence for conversion by the word is antecedent to Baptisme or to a Visible Church State and of it self gives a title to Salvation though never any such visible Church state by baptisme follows But if Baptisme follows I say again Christians are not saved primarily as baptized and as externally Church members but primarily as true believers and internally united to Christ And certainly a believer as such speaks no necessary relation to any Church or visible society whatever and therefore it could not possibly be the Apostles intendment in that place or the other to signifie that Christians had no relation to Christ or saving interest in him but what they derived from a participation of Baptisme and a conjunction with a visible Church Having thus finished his proof that all Christians are members of the catholick visible Church he proceeds to the proof of the second part of the proposition which is that therefore every Christian is bound to joyn in external communion with the said Church This he thinks is clear upon two reasons First because without such a conjunction the ends of Church society cannot be obtained which ends are the solemn worship of God the publick profession of our religion and the mutual edification one of another Secondly Because without such a conjunction in external communion with the Catholick visible Church we cannot be made partakers of the benefits and priviledges that Christ hath made over to the members of his Church such are the pardon of sin and the grace of the holy Spirit and so he concludes we have no promises of spiritual Graces but of those means so that in order to the partaking of them there is an absolute necessity laid upon us of joyning and communicating with the Church Thus far he I answer first whereas he says that he hath made it evident that every Christian upon the account of his very being so a member of the catholick visible Church that I have already denied and upon what grounds and reasons I have denied it is before shewn as for his consequence that therefore every Christian is bound upon the very account of his being so to joyn with the Church catholick visible in external communion That I have also denyed and the reasons why I have shewed as First there is no such external communion to be had with that vast body as the catholick Church is besides if there were it might be unlawfull because if communion could not be had but upon sinfull conditions or without a manifest hazard of my salvation or in case one were wrongfully excommunicated there is in these cases no obligation on a Christian as such to any such external communion but a Christian may be still a Christian without it But let us see how he proves his consequence His first reason is because without such
us lies which the Fundamental Laws of Society and the expresse precepts of Christianity require of every Member Answ I would now fain know of him what are those Fundamental Laws of Society as suppose of Kingdomes or Corporations that oblige its Subjects or Citizens to seek the Unity and Peace of those Societies or Citizens to seek the Unity the known Laws of the said Kingdoms and the orders of Corporations regulated by the Charters granted by their Princes but if any inferiour Officers of Kingdoms or Corporations shall impose Laws upon the Subjects or Citizens that are not agreeable to but rather seem contrary to the Laws of the Kingdom and the Power granted in those Charters if such Subjects or Citizens oppose and refuse subjection and will not communicate in those things who dare say that such do not seek the Peace of Kingdoms and Corporations as much as in them lies or as much as is fit And let him likewise tell us what are those expresse precepts of Christianity that oblige its Members any further to seek the Unity of the Church than to believe do and observe those things which Christ the Head of his Church hath commanded Christians then seek the Unity of the Body so far as in them lies when they seek it according to a Gospel rule for it doth not lye in their Power to seek it any other ways But saith he to separate from Congregations with whom we may lawfully Communicate is not to seek the Vnity of the Body so far as in us lies Answ This is not universally true for what if one shifteth his Habitation to another Parish for the benefit of the Labours of a more pious Minister here is a separation from an established Assembly and yet no breach upon the Unity of the Body But suppose one still abides in the Parish and yet constantly Hears and Communicates with a Church of an other Parish as I suppose some of your own do how can you say such so long as they continue Communion with your National Church seek not the Union of the Body as sar as is fit or needful If you say but neither of these are the cases of those you speak of because they hold Communion with you to be sinful Very true and you deny not that in case they could not Communicate with you without sin but that they may lawfully separate without being guilty of any breach of union If you had here proved they might hold Communion with you without sin or what they extreamly suspect to be sinful you had said something but since you have reserved your pretended proof thereof to the fourth Proposition I shall therefore referre my answer thereto His third Proposition That the being a Member of any Church doth oblige a man to submit to all the Laws and Constitutions of that Church I Answer if by Laws and Constitutions he understands such that Christ either by himself or his Apostles hath ordained such as to meet together to Pray Praise Preach Hear Baptize or Eat the Lords Supper or to Admonish Comfort Reprove or cast out the Obstinate so I grant the Truth of the Proposition But if by Laws and Constitutions he means such that are meerly of mens devising and imposing under the penalty of Excommunication without any command from Christ for so doing of which kind are the Observations of Days Abstaining from Meats Crossing in Baptism Kneeling at the Supper Reading Prayers and that in a Surplice without the use and observation whereof it shall not be lawful for men to Preach the Gospel or partake of the Sacrament but for refusal shall be cast out and not esteemed worthy of the name of Christians In this sence I say the proposition is very false And whereas he saith that this Proposition is in the general so unquestionable that no sober man will deny it I on the contrary say that in the general without a sound limitation it is so mischievous that no sober man but may be ashamed to assert it For who will deny but that our Saviour with his Apostles were of the Church of the Jews and who dares say that either Christ or they thought themselves obliged to observe the humane Laws and Traditions of that Church either in washing before Meat or in not Healing on the Sabbath-day which Traditions they made no scruple to transgresse and to justifie such Transgression to the shame and confusion of their Imposers Again who knows not that the Rulers of the Jewish Church had agreed and so made it a Constitution of that Church that if any confessed Christ he should be cast out of the Synagogue and what Christian hath the Forehead to say that all the Members of that Church were obliged thereby not to confesse Christ or to bear any part in casting out such as did confesse him from their Synagogues He adds this is the Basis upon which all Societies are founded and by which they do subsist He means that the Truth of that Proposition is at the bottom of all Societies whether Civil or Ecclesiastical but I pray how is it the Basis of Kingdoms which are civil Societies Thus far I grant that all the just Laws Enacted by the supream Power in such Kingdoms do oblige all the Subjects Answerably all the Laws and Constitutions in the Church that are Enacted by Jesus Christ its supream King and Governour do bind all the Members But in civil Societies if the Inferiour Magistrates as suppose the Heads of Corporations shall Enact Laws and make Constitutions and bind them on the Subjects so as in case of refusal to submit they shall be deprived of the right and priviledges of Subjects and that without any Authority from the supreme Power for so doing I say in this case that this Proposition is so far from being the Basis of these Societies without which they cannot subsist that I say it 's the Basis of all Confusion to such Societies answerably if any Officers of Churches shall presume without warrant from Christ to make Laws and bind them on the Disciples necks upon the penalties of depriving them of the rights and priviledges of Christians as they do by excommunication I say this is a meer usurpation of the Regall power of Christ and tends directly to run Churches into confusion and all manner of disorders as the sad Effects thereof do cleerly demonstrate And whereas he saith To suppose a Society and yet to suppose the members of it not under an obligation to obey its Laws and Government is to make Ropes of sand and to suppose a body without sinews and ligaments to hold the parts together I Answer That t is confessed that the just Laws of the supream Authority of any Society are Sinews and Ligaments of that society But if the Laws be either unjust or imposed by any Authority inferiour to the Supream such Laws are not the natural sinews in any Government but are certain Monstrosities in the body politick as such kind of Sinews
or Ligaments in the body naturall are reputed which are not necessary or usefull but are Impediments to a regular motion of the members and of this kind are the Laws and Constitutions of Churches about which we contend Well but let us see how he clears this he further saith pag. 16. It must be acknowledged in the first place that the Church must as all other Societies be entrusted with at least so much power over her subjects as is necessary for the securing of her own welfare and preservation For to think otherwise is to suppose God to have founded a Church and Intended the well being and continuance of it which are things that every one must grant and yet to suppose he hath denyed her the use of the means without which the well being and continuance cannot be attained which is monstrous and contradictious It is plain that the Author speaks here of a particular Church as may be seen by a review of the proposition where he speaks of a membership with any Church i. e. with any particular Church and now I answer First This Argument proceedeth upon an Hypothesis that is not necessarily true as the Author imagineth viz. that God in causing this or that particular Church to be planted must needs Intend its continuance for many such Churches have been planted but not continued and certainly when it hath so hapned it hath not been besides the intention of God Perhaps you will say that was through their own fault by not making use of that power that God gave them to preserve themselves say you so what then say you to the Church of Christ first planted at Jerusalem we read Acts 8.1.2 that a great persecution arose and they were all scattered and none left at Jerusalem except the Apostles And it is as easie to conceive that the Apostles might have been scattered as the rest I ask now was this Church continued or if it was not was it because they made not use of that power that God intrusted them with for their preservation what would you have had them done what repelled force with force I know you believe no such power was intrusted with them and yet it 's certain that this dispersion was not besides the intention of God therefore it is not necessary as you suppose that God must always intend the preservation of every particular Church he causeth to be planted But in the next place let us grant your supposition that God intends the continuance of every Church he causeth to be planted what then you say then he must needs intrust the said Churches with so much power that is necessary to preserve themselves or else he is wanting to them I deny your consequence because since a Church may be broken and so discontinued as well by Armed Force from Persecutors as by Intestine Broyls arising from Heresies and Schismes God must then necessarily have provided every particular Church with an Army Superior to all the power ef Persecutors or else have ingaged himself to work miracles for their preservation or else according to you he must be thought wanting to his Churches But since God hath neither provided the one nor engaged himself to the other it is certain your Consequence taken universally cannot be true Perhaps you will say if the Consequence be not universally true yet it is as to the particulars of Heresies and Schismes that arise out of the Church For if God had not provided the Church with so much power as is necessary to suppresse those evills he must be wanting in providing means for the Churches preservation I Answer that will be soon seen if we consider all that power that God hath truly given his Churches to keep them from these evils which are so far as I understand the Bible and Ministers and the promise of the Spirit to guide them that sincerely Implore his Aid and Assistance Now its true these means are sufficient and as much in their kind as is necessary yet they are not of themselves sufficient except Ministers and People make a good use of them For in case either the one or the other do sinfully neglect the studying of the Bible and praying earnestly for the guidance of the Spirit it is very possible and easie for either of them to lapse into Heresies and Schismes as many Churches have done and yet when they so do the have not to blame God for not intending their continuance nor for not affording what means are in their kind sufficient for their continuance For the fault is their own in not making a due use and improvement of the means afforded I know the Author is dreaming of other sorts of means Entrusted with the Church for the preventing the destruction thereof by Heresies and Schismes and that is of a power of determining Controversies in points of doctrine and of making Laws and Ordinances for the suppressing Schismes so at least as to oblige the members to acquiesce which are different from studying the Bible praying for the Spirit and to add a Living up to what they know But by his leave I will be bold to tell him that such a power of determining controversies is not a sure means of it self to prevent Heresies for what if the Pastors themselves by a neglect of those means I named should lapse into Heresies it is certain if they came to determine they would Establish Heresies and not root them up Nor is that power of making Laws and Canons to oblige all members to acquiesce in any sure means to prevent or to put an end to Schismes for except the members of the Church are assured that what their Pastors determine in doctrine and what they would be Cannon oblige them to in matters of worship be agreeable to the word of God they may justly make no scruple to dissent in the one and the other True indeed if Governours of Churches could make out such a power they pretend to that they have received it from God and that they are infallibly guided as the Pope and Quakers pretend in all their determinations then somewhat indeed were spoken to the purpose and the People would see some ground to take them for Oracles and to stoop to their determinations but till then it is best for Governours of Churches to leave the People to their Bibles and to presse nothing upon them as necessary but what they find to be Evidently there written and commanded But no more of this as yet for I have herein almost prevented my self in what I have to say as to that which follows He proceeds thus That since the preservation of a Church cannot be secured but by a providing for a due and orderly performance of the worship of God and by maintaining peace and unity among its members it necessarily follows in Generall that whatever power over her subjects is necessary in order to either of these things all that at least must be supposed to be Lodged in the Church that
is to say in those that have the Government of it I answer If you mean hereby that Jesus Christ hath by directions and precepts provided what is necessary for the due and orderly performance of Gods worship and likewise for the preserving his Churches in peace and Unity and that he hath in a special manner intrusted those directions and precepts with the Pastors of Churches to teach and command the Churches to worship God according to these directions and to keep unity among themselves and likewise to reprove and censure the obstinate according to the said directions and precepts so I yield the whole of what is said But if you mean thereby that Christ hath intrusted the Governours of Churches with an Arbitrary power to institute such things for a pretended due and orderly worship which neither were in use with Christ and his Apostles or those first Churches or that are no ways necessary in themselves but are at least seemingly contrary to the Genius of a Gospell-worship which is Eminently spirituall and to presse these under the penalties of Excommunication as if the Churches could not duely and orderly worship God and be kept in unity without them In this sence I deny that any such power is to be supposed to be Lodged in the Governours of the Church for it is a power altogether uselesse and impertinent and in the consequence destructive For Christ and his Apostles and those first Churches worshipped God and kept unity in a more excellent manner than we do and yet without the use of these humanely invented things that you Impose He goes on From hence saith he it is plain that the Church hath a power to restrain the exercise of her Subjects Liberty as to oblige them to all such Laws Rules Orders Ceremonies as she shall Establish for the ends aforesaid I answer When you have either better proved the necessity or real usefullness of the laws rules ceremonies to the ends aforesaid or that Christ hath given any such power to the said Governours which hitherto you have but meerly beg'd then I will yeild to what you say as true But otherwise it is but a poor naked Lanck Assertion that stands by it self unproved and so I leave it But as to what he adds And if it be Questioned whether her Appointments do indeed conduce to that end of that she her self is to be Judge her members being no farther concerned therein than onely before they obey her Impositions to see that they be not repugnant to the known Laws of God I Answer First let it be considered that he grants a Judgment of discretion to the people antecedent to and a ground of their Obedience to such Laws upon this I say it will follow that if the members upon searching the Scriptures and praying to God for his Spirit to direct them are left after such a search under strong perswasions that the very making such Laws and appointing such Ceremonies and binding them on the disciples necks under the penalties of Excommunication is a meer usurpation and that those Ceremonies themselves are of such a low carnall beggerly consideration extreamly ill suited to the manly State of the Church and the Spirituality of a Gospel worship I say if upon these and other considerations they continue strongly perswaded that both the one and the other are thus repugnant to the Will and Law of Christ it will be the members duty in such a case to disobey It will not here be sufficient for you to say but they are mistaken there is no such real repugnancy as they Imagine For since you leave them to be Judges whether there is or is not it is but equall that those you leave to be Judges that they should be left to act according to their judgements in such a case as this is which you yield to fall under their cognisance And the truth is if you will not yield such a Liberty of judgment as this is you must bid them put out their eyes and follow their Leaders in a blind Obedience and in case their Leaders be blind also you would there in direct them to an excellent expedient how they may come all to fall into the Ditch He Infers again Hence it will follow that the Church must be furnished with a power to end and determine controversies of Religion that arise among its membmers that is to say to give an Authoritative decision of them as that all parties are bound to acquiesce in it else she could not preserve her self in peace and unity What you say here may be differently understood according to the nature of the points about which the controversie is if the matters of difference or controversie be such as may be held by both sides without any considerable damage to either of their Solutions then I grant that if Church Governours determine as the Apostle you confesse pag. 1. doth that those differing parties should remember each other as brethren and Communicate with each other as such forbearing to censure each other as being the Lords servants to whom they must stand or fall that the members ought to acquiesce in this their determination But in case that Church Governours shall side with one party and with them shall contrary to the said rule and practice of the Apostle endeavour to force by their determination the other party to do and say as they do or else to excommunicate them I say in this case these Governours usurp an Authority to themselves above and beyond what the Apostle had or thought fit to exercise And Likewise that it is not the Duty of the party so Imposed upon to submit contrary to what they conceive to be the Will of God in that case For he that doth or saith any thing against his doubting Conscience is in the same Condition of Damnation as he that doubteth and eateth which the Apostle Instanceth in If the points of Controversie be about such matters where those that hold on one side do Espouse such doctrines or ways of worship that are of very dangerous Consequence to the Salvation to their Souls such are they that are espoused by Arians Socinians Papists I say In these instances if Church Governours determine on the right side according to the plain Revelations of Gods word in Scriptures the Members are bound to acquiesce therein but not meerely because of their determination but because their determinations are sounded on the Revelations of God but in case the said Governours should contrary to the said Revelations determine on the wrong side that is to say for the Socinians Arrians Papists I say then the Members were not obliged to acquiesce in these determinations notwithstanding all the pretences of Unity and Peace that may be obtained thereby The Author being sensible that what he last said if taken in the utmost extent of its signification would be dangerous begins to limit his sence thereof and indeed it is but high time he should Here saith he it may
religious Customes and Usages contrary to these General rules c. Thus having given you our true sence and meaning of unscriptural Ceremonies now I answer to your dilemma Either you say these things thus imposed are in themselves lawfull or unlawfull I answer Your argument as you form it is trivial and not to the purpose for it speaks not to the Question under Consideration for the Question is not about the nature of the things imposed taken Absolutely but about the Religious use of those things in the worship and service of God Thus then your argument ought to proceed Either the religious use of these things imposed in the Worship and Service of God is lawfull or unlawfull I answer Now directly the Religious use of them is unlawfull and this antecedently to the imposing of them and therefore the imposing of them cannot make them lawfull Here had been a fit place for you to have shewn your strength if you had any in Convincing us that the Religious use of these things in Gods Worship is Lawfull antecedently to the Imposition But we have not a word hereof and therefore since I find no more opposition therein I might justly dismiss this first thing without any further Reply Yet if any shall ask for what reason is it that we say that such a use of them is unlawfull I answer our reasons are ready and they are such that do at least Convince our Consciences so far as to doubt and really suspect their use to be unlawful Which is sufficient to make their imposition a warrantable ground of withdrawing though the Evidence thereof be not so great as to Convince our Gainsayers no nor possibly to demonstrate fully the unlawfulness thereof to our own Consciences as hath been already proved If I be yet urged to shew our reasons of this our perswasion or supposition Methinks it were reason enough if I onely told such that these things imposed are only the productions of a humane spirit and are beholding for their Continuance in being to the Traditions of men and so hold in no respect of Christ the head which is sufficient not only in my opinion but in the judgment of the Apostle Paul to give members of Churches Caution against the reception of them Col. 2.8 Beware lest any man make a prey of you through Philosophy and vain deceit after the Traditions of men after the Rudiments of the World and not after Christ Whoever pleaseth to see an excellent paraphrase upon this verse let him read it in Mr. John Dale in his exposition on this Epistle which hath the Imprimatur Tho. Tomkins Ex Aed Lambeth and therefore I hope the testimony of this excellent person may obtain some repute his words are these The Scriptures calls those doctrines Traditions of men which have men only for their Authors which come from men and not form God these with the errours of Philosophy of which the Apostle speaks immediately before may bear the same name since they both flow'd from the spirit of men and had no other source but this imagination A little after he saith Whence it doth appear that no productions of an humane spirit are receivable in Evangelicall Religion neither those that are supposed by some pretended reasons nor those that are sounded upon Use and Antiquity they are all of them nothing but solly and vanity in the sight of God with what Colour soever they be painted over And though men boast of their utility they are extreamly hurtfull as pestering Consciences and busying them about things which God hath not ordained and turning them aside from his pure service to matters of nought Accordingly you see that our Lord Jesus Christ rejects and roughly thrusts away all the Traditions of the Pharisees how much esteemed soever they were for their Antiquity and pretended Use reproaching them that by holding fast those Traditions of Men they did let loose the Commandements of God Applying to them those words of the Lord in Isaiah In vain do they Honour me teaching for doctrines the Traditions of men As indeed it 's an unsufferable presumption that men should attempt to prescribe the form of Gods service especially after the declaration which himself hath vouchsafed to make of his holy will nor is there one among men that would indure his servant should treat him in that manner and instead of obeying his Orders and causing others to dispatch them fall a Philosophising in his house and giving his Family a new Rule to observe as if he were wiser than his Master I know well the Authors of these Traditions and those that follow them are not without fine reasons to palliate their temerity but it is Evident that they do the very same for Substance Neither is it to be doubted but a Servant that should be culpable of such a vanity would alledge likewise his motive and designes to any that would give them audience But Common sense dictateth to the meanest capacities that such undertaking Spirits merit not so much as to be heard especially where God is concerned in Comparison of whom they with all their sufficiency are but poor worms of the Earth Hold we firm therefore this Foundation of the Apostle that the Traditions of men ought to have no place in Religion it concerns me not to inform my self of their age whether they be the Traditions of Men Antient or Modern it sufficeth that I know they are Traditions of men having the Apostles advertisement we should not be moved with any reason or splendor or antiquity they may come cloathed with if you would have me receive them shew me that they are prescriptions of Gods institutions of his Christ Doctrines of his Scriptures without this However specious you make them appear to me I shall never believe it it is but to make a prey of me and your diligence shall have no effect but the making me suspect them so much the more Thus far you have had the Judgement of as great Divines as the Church in this last age hath produced and who ever thinks there is not reason enough in this discourse to give Foundation sufficient to tender Consciences at least to suspect if not to be confident of the unlawfulness of the Religious use of these things in the service of God I know not what such will yeild to be sufficient nor would I wish such any greater punishment for their being otherwise minded than that they were obliged to give a more rational account of this verse of the Apostle and likewise to enervate the force of this Authors reason here produced In confesse such is the vanity of mans mind that whilst he either not at all or very negligently hath regard to that Jealousie that God hath over his Worship as is frequently taken notice of in Scriptures is apt to think of these fictitious Ceremonies of Worship as very indifferent and harmless matters for who could of a sudden think there is any good ground of making such
Authority that enjoynes them before we withdraw our obedience to it otherwise we do not proceed upon safe grounds but now we are absolutely certain that God hath commanded us to obey them that have the rule over us but we are not certain that the Actions we here speak of are any where forbid by him for if they were they would be no longer doubtful or suspected they would be certain sins so that if we will follow the surer side as all Christians in these cases are bound to do we must continue our obedience to the Church notwithstanding we suspect or doubt of the lawfulness of her commands Thus far he I answer this Argument notwithstanding the prittiness of its contrivance is certainly falatious for ex vero nihil sequi potest nisi verum for the rule there laid down of always obeying the Church Rulers where the Conscience is in doubt is in many instances a ready way to involve many a weak Conscience in damnable guilt For suppose there had been many a doubtful Conscience among the Israelites in Ahabs time as it seems there were who halted betwixt the VVorship of Jehovah and Baal suppose yet a little further that the Consciences thus doubting were rather inclined to believe Jehovah the true God and Baal but an Idol but yet were not absolutely certain what say you now what Councel would you have given such an one if he had askt your advice do but look how ill-favouredly such an answer as this would seem true might you say according to your rule I do believe that Jehovah is the only true God and Baal but a Devil and that your worshiping a Devil is a damnable sin but as for you you are not so certain hereof as I am yet your Conscience is inclined to believe as I do my advice therefore is this that since your Rulers have commanded you to worship that Devil I Counsel you so to do till your Conscience be better resolved and why because you are certain God hath commanded you to obey your rulers but you are not yet so certain that Baal is a Devil I dare say you abhor such a resolution of the case and yet I see not but you must be forced to give no better if you follow the rule laid down in this argument I might instance in other like cases as if a Jew in the dayes of Messiahs being in the Flesh had been inclined to believe in him as the Messiah but yet was not so absolutely certain thereof as he was of this command thou shalt obey the Rulers of thy people according to you he must go against the inclination of his doubting Conscience in disowning and rejecting Christ that he might yeild obedience to his Rulers who command him so to do in like manner if a poor man were inclined to believe the Masse Idolatry he must go on in that sin against his doubting Conscience till he comes to be as certain it is Idolatry as he is that God hath commanded us to obey our Rulers From what hath been said it is evident there is a fallacy in your Argument and now to shew you where it lies give me leave to tell you it lies in your arguing from particulars to an Universal vel a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter That because I am sure that God hath Commanded me to obey my rulers in some things therfore I am sure that God hath Commanded me to obey my Rulers in every thing yea in such things which I suspect to be sin Do but you make this Evident that in that very Command which I suspect to be sinfull that I may be sure that God hath Commanded me to obey and then I will give up the Cause But this you can never do for upon those very arguments upon which I suspect the sinfulnesse of the Command upon the same Arguments I suspect whether God hath given them Authority to Command or whether God would have me to obey for I can never be sure that God hath Commanded me to obey my Rulers in such instances where I suspect my Rulers Command me to sin So that whereas your Argument supposeth that a Doubting conscience may be more certain that God hath Commanded him to obey his Rulers than he is of the thing he doubts and so he is therefore to take the surer side and so to obey his Rulers against his Conscience I have made the contrary appear by shewing that a man can never be sure that God hath Commanded him to obey his Rulers in such cases where he suspects they Command him to sin So that in obeying them he doth not take the surer side Thus is the strength of this Argument and so the strength of his second Charged upon the Nonconformists broken wherein he hath been endeavouring to prove they have no just Cause of Separation though it be upon the account of avoiding what they suspect to be sinfull which is made the Condition of Communion Thirdly saith he Neither can it be true that Errours in a Church as to matter of Doctrines or Corruptions as to matter of Practice so long as these Errours and Corruptions are only suffered but not imposed can be a sufficient Cause of Separation The reason is because the things are not sin in us so long as we do not joyn with the Church in them I Answer First I would fain know what kind of Errours of Doctrines or Corruptions of Practice you do here mean for they are of divers sorts and kinds and accordingly what you here say may be either True or False If by Errours of Doctrine you mean such that are consistent with the holding of Christ the head or such that touch not upon the Fundamentals of the Christian Doctrine some such were those in the Apostles days that related to the Abstaining from meats and observation of days in such cases doubtlesse Christians ought without imposing to bear with one another and to continue Communion with each other notwithstanding such differences which was the Apostles counsel in that case in this sence what you say is true Or if by Corruptions in Practice you should mean such infirmities that all Members of Churches are subject to more or lesse for who can say that he is without sin in this sence you are right or if you mean by errours and Corruptions such that are of a more Grosse and Hainous nature which are not publickly known or of which the Members cannot have sufficient proof for the conviction of themselves that those that are accused are really guilty so also I grant what is here said for till it be evident by some overt Act that Judas hath a Devill and is a Traytor he ought to be look'd on as an Apostle and might be heard In like manner if the Governours of the Church were with many of the Members Arrians or Socinians in their judgments but not known evidently to be such it may be the Duty of sound Christians not to