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church_n	apostle_n	deacon_n	presbyter_n	3,199	5	9.7644	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A69753	The generall demands, of the reverend doctors of divinitie, and ministers of the Gospell in Aberdene, concerning the late covenant, in Scotland together, with the answeres, replyes, and duplyes that followed thereupon, in the year, 1638 : reprinted in one book, by order of Parliament.	Forbes, John, 1593-1648.; Henderson, Alexander, 1583?-1646.	1663 (1663)	Wing C4226; Wing C4225; ESTC R6298	125,063	170

practise of indifferent things but knowing these things in themselves to be approvable we did swear obedience to the publick Laws requyring our practise in these thinges so long as the Law standeth in vigour and our obedience thereto is required by our lawfull Superioures 4. This course we hold to be more agreable to our duety then upon private conceptions of scandalls unnecessarily taken to break off our due obedience to that Authority which GOD hath set over us 6. Out of our assertion Reply 4. concerning the administration of the Sacraments in private places to sick persons in case of necessity ye doe collect that we cannot forbear the practise of these although our ordinary and other lawfull superiours should will us to doe so And hence ye infer that herein Pearth Assembly for which we stand is wronged by us two wayes 1. That we differ in judgement from them about the indifferency of the five Articles and next that at the will of our ordinary and ye know not what other lawfull superioures we are ready to forbear the practise of these things which the Assembly hath appointed to be observed 7. As for your maine Question Whether a duety necessary by divyne Law may be or may not be omitted in case our ordinary other lawfull superioures should will us to omit it before we answer to it we must expound what we mean by our other lawfull superiours because of your jesting pretence of ignorance hereof We mean hereby the Kings Majesty the Parliament the secret Counsell and other Magistrates and ecclesiasticall Assemblies whereunto we owe obedience in our practise required by them according to publick Lawes 8. The Question it self ye doe express more clearly in your Answer to our 4. Reply wher ye alleadge that we find some of the Pearth Articles so necessary that although the generall Assembly of the Church should discharge them yet we behoved still for conscience of the commandement of GOD to practise them Thus are we brought to this generall Question Whether or no any thing necessary or commanded by divine Law may in any case without sin be omitted when publick humane Authority dischargeth the practise therof For resolving of this question we desire the Reader to take notice of these Theological Maximes received in the schools grounded upon holy Scriptur 9. Affirmative preceptes doe binde at all times but not to all times but only as place and time require that is when opportunity occurreth Praecepta affirmativa obligant semper sed non ad semper nisi pro loco tempore id est quando opportunitas occurrit But negative Precepts doe binde at all times and to all times Praecepta negativa obligant semper ad semper As for example A man is not obliedged to speak the trueth at all times for he may be some time lawfully silent but he may never lawfully lie 10 Of Affirmative necessary dueties some are the weightier matters of the Law 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Judgement Mercy and Faith Matth. 23. 23. Others lesse weighty such as are those of the Pearth Articles which we call necessary and ye doe reject 11. The exercise of some affirmative necessary dueties may be some times omitted by Authority without sin for the publick peace or some pressing necessity Thus Moses permitted repudiation of a mans married wife not fallen into adultery neither did he urge strictly the affirmative duety of adherence and that for the hardnesse of their heart Wherein Moses had respect to the peace and unity of the Tribs of Israell as Alexander Alensis observeth in his Summe of Theologie Part. 3. Qu. 46. Membro 1. Art 1. Art 2. David did not execute in his own time judgment against Ioab for his murthering of Abner and Amasa because the sonnes of Zeruiah were too hard for him Circumcision was omitted because of the uncertainty of their abode in one place when the people were with Moses in the Wildernesse 12. Exercise of ecclesiasticall Discipline against open obstinate offenders is an affirmative duety incumbent by divyne Law upon the Pastors towards those who are committed to their charge Yet it may and ought to be forborn when it can not be used without an open rupture and unavoidable Schism Because in such a case the publick peace is rather to be looked to lest in our inconsiderate zeal to seperate the Tares we pluck up also the Wheat And what we can not get corrected by censure we can doe no more but mourn for it and patiently wait till GOD amend it as Augustin proveth at length Lib. 3. contra Epistolam Parmeniani Cap. 1. Cap. 2. Lib. de fide operibus Cap. 5. For in this time sayeth Gregory the holy Church doeth correct something by fervour something she tolerateth by mecknes some things by consideration she dissembleth beareth so that often by bearing dissembling she compesceth or putteth away that evill which she hateth And Prosp. saith for this cause therfor they most with gentle piety be borne with who for their infirmity may not be rebuked 13. When a doctrinall error not being fundamentall prevaileth by publick authority in any Church a private Pastor or Doctor espying it may lawfully and laudably sorbear publick striving against it when he evidently perceiveth that unavoydable Schism would follow thereupon In such a case he should content himself to seed his hearers with that wholesome Milk of the Word which they may receive and delay the giving of stronger Food unto them because of their infirmity Considering that more necessary and weightier duetie which he oweth for preservation of order and peace and labouring in a milde and peaceable manner to cure them To this purpose belongeth that saying of Gregorie Nazianzen Let no man therefore be more wise then is convenient neither more legall then the Law neither more bright then the Light neither more straight then the Rule neither higher then the Commandement But how shall this be If we take knowledge of decencie and commende the lawe of nature and follow reason and despise not good order 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And that of the ancient Church of Lions in France near eight hundreth years agoe Who doeth not calmlie and peaceablie moderate that which he thinketh but is readie incontinent to contentions dissentions and scandalls although he have not an hereticall sense most certainlie he hath an hereticall minde 14. Divine Institution by the Ministery of the Apostles craveth Deacons ordained by imposition of hands for all their life time Acts 6. Yet in our reformed Church of Scotland we have no such Deacons Which oecomenicall defect necessitated by detention of Church mantenance necessary for their sustentation we hope shall not be imputed to our Church as sin so long as she despiseth not that Institution and acknowledgeth and lamenteth this deficiencie and endeavoureth by peaceable lawfull means to have it ●emedied 15. Although some affirmative Dueties necessary by divine precept doe

uniformity of divyne service throughout this Nationall Kirk and a more perfect forme then we yet have that the publick Service were not permitted to the severall judgements and private choise of every Minister and Reader Which also was thought convenient by the Nationall Assembly of the Kirk of Scotland holden at ABERDENE Anno 1616. 2. Whether that Service Book now discharged containeth any Innovation of Religion or any thing contrary to the Protestant Religion as ye alleadge we doe not dispute now But we doe assuredly believe the piety and sincerity of His Majesties intention ever to have been and still constantly to be as it is graciously declared by His Majesties late Proclamation And we are certainly perswaded that His Majesty hath given order to discharge all the Acts of Counsell made anent the Canons and Service Book and are credibly informed that they are discharged by Act of Counsell at Holy-Rood-House the fifth of Iullie last according to the order given by His Majesty Also we see no such just cause of Fear as may import your alleadged necessity of Covenanting seeing His Majesty will not presse any thing of that nature but in such a faire and legall way as shall satisfie all his loving Subjects that he neither intendeth innovations in Religion nor Lawes as we declare in our former Replye to which ye have not sufficiently answered Neither was it necessary for removing of any just Feares that his sacred Majesty should disallowe that Service Book as ye require but it was sufficient to discharge it in manner foresaid 3. Ye doe conclude your Answere unto our third Replye with an uncouth and incredible Position whereof ye bring no proofe at all but onely this bare Assertion Whosoever professe themselves to bee perfectly satisfied with the Proclamation doe proclaime in the ears of all the Kingdom that they are better pleased with the Service Book and Canons then with the Religion as it hath been professed in this Land since the Reformation This your Thesis is so evidently weak that we need no more for the over-throw thereof but to oppose thereunto this our playn and undenyable Antithesis Who professe themselves to be perfectly satisfied with that Proclamation whereby the Service Book and Canons are discharged and the Religion professed in this Land since the Reformation is established doe proclaime in the ears of all the Kingdom that they are better pleased with the Religion professed in this Land since the Reformation then with the Service Book and Canons The IV. DUPLY. YE● alleadged before and now again doe affirme that we have mistaken your Interpretation of the old Covenant as if it had been given out judicially by you and as if ye had intended to enforce it upon others To free your selves of this imputation ye said in your first Answere that ye intended onely To make knowne your own meaning according to the mynde our Reformers and in charity to recommend it to others Hence we inferred in our Replye that ye ought nor to obtrude your Interpretation upon us nor molest any man for not receiving the same To this now ye say in your second Answere Although you neither use threatnings nor obtrude your Interpretation upon us yet we must pardon you if ye match us not with the greatest part of this Kingdom in whose name by all fair meanes ye recommend it to us Truely Brethren we are not offended with you for preferring the judgement of so many to our judgement who are but few in number neither need ye to crave pardon of us for this But concerning these faire meanes and that force of reason whereby ye say ye recommend your Interpretation of the old Covenant to us pardon us if the experience we have both of your writings and proceedings make us to oppose this your assertion For in your writings we expected indeed but have not found that force of reason whereof ye speake and as for the proceedings of those who have subscrived your Covenant we of all men have least reason to believe that they use no threatnings seeing we hear daylie so much their threatnings against our selves 2. Whereas for clearing of that which ye said before concerning the minde of our reformers ye affirme that The authoritative judgement of our reformers is evident not only by the confession of Faith ratified in Parliament but also by the books of Discipline Acts of Generall Assemblies and by their own writes First we marvell how ye can say that the private writings of Master Knox and others who with him were instruments of that great worke of Reformation have publicke Authority to obliedge the Subjects of this Kingdom The legislative and obligatory power of the Church is only in Synods or conventions of Bishops and Presbyters and not in particular persons expressing their minds apart Next this Church in the former age by abrogating the office of Superintendants established in the first book of Discipline hath declared that the statuts and ordinances contained in those books are not of an authority perpetually obligatory but may be altered or abrogated by the Church according to the exigencie of tyme. The same likewise is manifest by the abrogation of summary excomunication which this Church did abolish although it was established in Generall Assemblies wherein Master Knox and other Reformers were present We need not to insist much in this seeing so many of you who are Subscribents mis-regard the ordinances of our Reformers prefixed to the Psalm Book concerning the office of Superintendants or Bishops Funerall Sermons and set formes of Prayer which they appointed to be publickly read in the Church Hence the Reader may perceive that ye have no warrand for your Interpretation of the old Covenant from the authoritative and obligatory judgement of the Reformers feeing ye can not ground it upon the Confession of Faith ratified in Parliament As for those other meanes mentioned by us to wit Scripture Antiquitie and consent of the re●ormed Churches that they truly make for us and against you the unpartiall Reader may perceive by these our Disputs Whether or not Episcopacie and Pearth Articles be abjured in the late Covenant 3. As for the second mistaking mentioned by you in your Answere we did show in our Replye that in your Covenant Pearth Articles and Episcopacy are abjured And for proving of this we asked of you what ye meaned by the recovery and liberty of the Gospell as it was established and professed before the foresaid Novations and what is that period of tyme to which your words there have reference that is Whether it be that period of time when the Service Book and Book of Canons were urged upon you or if it be the time when Pearth Articles and Episcopacy were received in this Church But truely your Answere to this is nowise satisfactory nor hath so much as a show of satisfaction For ye are afraid to expresse that period of time lest ye beforced to grant that which we before objected And yet your

things were left indifferent by the negative Confession yet may we not forbear the practise of them because since that Confession Lawes have passed on them which remaining in vigour require our Obedience as we said before 7. The other horne of your Dilemma is that if these points were abjured for ever before Pearth Assembly then wee who practise them are perjured To which we answere That it followeth not for we never did swear to that negative Confession And therefore though these points were abjured therein yet are we free from all guiltinesse of Perjury And in the mean time ye have not resolved how he who is perswaded of the lawfulnesse of those points can swear the negative Confession if by it the Swearer be tyed to the abjuring of those points which was the other part of our Dilemma Thus if ye will consider rightly ye may perceive that our Dilemma standeth unmoved with the hornes of it still towards you Ye farther insinuate that our Reasons are not solide and grave but velitations of such a sort as ye looked not for Let the judicious Reader pronounce his sentence of this only we wish that ye had chosen rather to satisfie then to contemn our reasons That which ye here againe adde concerning the change of Cōmissioners is answered in our fourth Duply 8. To give light to your former discourse ye subjoine a distinction of discipline into three members First ye say it is taken for the rule of Government of the Church and censure of manners by office bearers appointed by CHRIST and thus ye say it is unchangeable Secondly for constitutions of counsells and Acts of Parliament about matters of Religion And thus ye say it is alterable or constant according to the nature of particular objects Thirdly for the ordering of circumstances to be observed in all actions divyne and humane and so ye say it is variable First by these distinctions the matter seemeth rather to be obscured then cleared For ye doe not expresse in which of these senses the discipline mentioned in the negative Confession is to be taken which was the point required of you 9. Secondly ye seem by this distinction to intangle your selves yet more For first if ye take the name of discipline in any one or any two of these senses what say ye to these following words of your dispute against the English Popish ceremmies Parte 4. cap. 8. Sect. 8. The Bishop doeth but needlesly question what is meaned by the discipline whereof the Oath speaketh For howsoever in Ecclesiasticall use it signifieth often times that Policie which standeth in the censuring of manners yet in the Oath it must be taken in the largest sense namely for the whole Policy of the Church For 1. The whole Policy of this Church did at that time goe under the name of discipline and those two Books wherein this Policy is contained were called the Books of discipline And without all doubt they who swore the Oath meaned by discipline that whole Policy of the Church which is contained in those Books 10. Secondly when that little Confession was framed the government of the Church was only by Presbyters and not by Bishops and therefore if ye think that the name of discipline in that Confession comprehendeth under it the first part of your distinction which as we conceive ye will no● deny ye may easily perceive that we are urged by you to sweare and subscrive against our Consciences since we think the rule of the government of the Church which then was to be changeable and that the Government was lawfully changed by following Assemblies and Parliaments from Presbyters to Bishops 11. Thirdly If these Constitutions of Counsells concerning objects alterable mentioned in the second member of your distinction be one the same with ordering of variable circumstā●es mentioned in the third member why have ye distinguished the one from the other But if they be different then ye grant that Ecclesiastick constitutions may be made concerning some alterable matters of Religion which are not bare circumstances which is repugnant to your ordinary doctrine whereby ye mantain that nothing changeable is left to the determination of the Church in matters of Religion but onely circumstances of Actions We can not see how ye can mantain this doctrine and yet oppose the determinations of the Church concerning Ceremonies which are indifferent 12. We had reason to inquire your judgement concerning Rites or Ceremonies which are not of divine Institution whether they be lawfull or not though ye still shun the declaring of it Since by your Covenant ye intend a reformation of Religion and a recovering of the Liberty and Purity of the Gospell as ye speak if ye in your judgement condemne such Ceremonies as ye insinuate we can not expect but that if ye obtain your desires all such Rites shall be expelled and condemned especially since by this your late Covenant ye tye your selves to that old Covenant wherein ye disclaim and detest all Rites brought into the Church without the word of GOD. Now we can not concurre with you for promoving this end because such a judgement is plain contrary to ours yea contrary to the universall judgement and practise of the Ancient Kirke repugnant also to the judgement of the Protestant Churches and most famous Divines therein as may appear by the quotations on the margine But if ye be of the same mind with us and think that there are some Rites of that kind lawfull why doe you hide your minde from us and others since the acknowledgement and manifesting of this Trueth would be no small advancement to your cause by removing this great offence Of Matrimoniall Benediction and God-fathers in Baptism 13. As for solemn blessing of Marriage we asked what warrand ye had for it by precept or practise set down in GODS Word In your Answere ye insinuate that it is a blessing of the people commanded in the Law and more plainly we find this set down in the Dispute against the English Popish Ceremonies Part. 3. Cap. 2. Sect. 10. Yet plain it is from Scripture it self that Matrimoniall Benediction ought to be given by a Pastor for GOD hath commanded his Ministers to blesse his People Numb 6. First who ever before you did ground the necessity of solemne blessing of Marriage upon these words Numb 6. 23. Speak unto Aaron and unto his sonnes saying on this wise ye shall blesse the children of Israel saying unto them the LORD blesse thee and keep thee c. Learned Melanchton was not so well versed in Scriptures as to see this For he sayeth in his Epistles Pag. 328. Ye see that the Rite of the Ancients is that the Bridegroom and Bride are joined before the Altar in the sight of GOD and with the incalling of GOD. Which custome undoubtedly hath been ordained by the first Fathers that we may consider that this conjunction was appointed by GOD and is assisted by Him 14. Secondly By this

Souls of the guiltinesse of it The XII DUPLY. TO justifie or excuse your omission of publick disallowing and condemning the publick disorders and miscarriages of some who have subscrived the Covenant especially the offering of violence to Prelats and Ministers in time of divine Service and in the House GOD whereof we spake in our twelfth Demand and Reply ye answer first that ye acknowledge not the Service-Book for the LORDS Service Ye might say the same of any Service Book If ye allow the Reasons lately set forth in Print against the Service-Book for there a Prescript form of Prayer is condemned which directly crosseth the practise of the universall Church of CHRIST Ancient and Recent 2. Ye alleadge that ye acknowledge not the usurped Authority of Prelats for lawfull Authority For ought we can perceive by the Doctrins of those with whome ye joine ye acknowledge no lawfull Authority at all in Prelats above your selves and other Ministers and ye seem so to insinuate so much here by blaming us for calling them Reverend and holy Fathers We are perswaded of the lawfulnesse of their Office and therefore are not ashamed with Scripture and Godly Antiquity to call such as are advanced to this sacred Dignity Fathers and Reverend Fathers Neither should personall faults alleadged by you hinder our observance till what is alleadged be clearly proven For so long as things are doubtfull we should interpret to the better part Luke 6 37. And it is a rule of Law that in a doubtfull case the state of a Possessor is best and consequently of him that hither-to hath been in a possession of a good name as also that in things doubtfull we should rather favour the person accused then him that accuseth 3. If ye be of this same judgement with us concerning the lawfulnesse of their Office why doe ye not reverence them as well as we But if their very Office seem to you unlawfull we esteem your judgement contrary to holy Scripture to all sound Antiquity and to the best learned amongst reformed Divines Hear what Melanchton sayeth I would to GOD I would to GOD it lay in me not to confirm the Dominion but to restore the Government of Bishops for I see what manner of Policy we shall have the Ecclesiasticall Policie being dissolved I doe see that hereafter will grow up a greater tyrannie in the Church then ever was before And again in another Epistle to Camerarius he sayeth You will not beleeve how much I am hated by those of Noricum and by others for the restoring of Iuridiction to Bishops So our Companions fight for their own Kingdom and not for the Kingdom of CHRIST So in other places See Bucer de Regno CHRISTI Pag. 67. 4. Thirdly Ye alleadge the zeal of the People by reason whereof ye say that it was nothing strange that in such a case they were stirred up to oppose Suppone they had opposed yet that they should have so opposed as to have offered violence to sacred Persons Prelats or Ministers who are spirituall Fathers seemeth to us very strange for all that hitherto ye have said There is no zeal without the extraordinary instinct of GODS Spirit which can warrand men destitute of Authority to lay their hands on such persons Touch not mine anoynted and doe my Prophets no harme sayeth the LORD Psal. 105. Let all things be done decently and in order sayeth S. Paul 1. Cor. 14. 40. GOD is not the author of confusion or timult but of peace sayeth that same Apostle there verse 33. To this purpose Gregorie Nazianzen in his 26 Oration speaking of the chief causes of division in the Church sayeth One of them is unrulie ferventness without reason and knowledge and that another is Disorder and undecencie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 5. The Sonne should account the person of his Father sacred ff de obsequiis Leg. 9. So we ought also to esteem of our spirituall Fathers and therefore to offer injury to their persons and that in time of divine Service must needs be a grievous sin In the Novell Constitutions of Iustinian Authent Collat. 9. Tit. 6. Novella 123. de Sanctiss Episcopis c. Cap 31. there is a remarkable Law to this purpose cited upon the Margine The like Law we find in Cod. Iustin. Lib. 1. Tit. 3. de Episcop Clericis Leg. 10. Now although in these imperiall Lawes the sanction be severe yet we wish no such severity to be used amongst us but praying GOD to forgive them who have transgressed We desire them to consider that anciently amongst Christians such doings were greatly disallowed 6. Chrysostom speaking of the reverence due by people to Pastors sayeth A man may now see that there are not so great s●offs and reproaches used by the unfaithfull against the Rulers as by those that seem to be faithfull and to be joined with us Let us therefore inquire whence commeth this negligence and contempt of pietie that we have such a hostilitie against our Fathers There is nothing there is nothing that can so easilie destroy the Church as when there is not an exact jointure of Disciples to their Masters of children to parents and of them that are ruled with their Rulers He that but speaketh evill against his brother is debarred from reading the divine Scriptures for what hast thou to doe to take my Covenant in thy mouth sayeth the LORD and subjoineth this cause Thou sittest and speakest evill of thy brother and thinkest thou thy self worthie to come to the sacred porches who accuseth thy spirituall Father How agreeth this with reason For if they who speake evill of Father or Mother should dye according to the Law of what judgement is he worthie who dare speake evill of him who is much more necessarie and better then those Parents Why feareth he not that the Earth should open and swallow him or that thunder should come from Heaven and burn up that accusing tongue See him also Lib. 3. de Sacerdotio Cap. 5. 6. 7. In the next place ye say that the keeping of GODS House from pollution and superstition belongeth to Authority to the community of the faithfull and to every one in his own place and order but certainly if every one or all the community keep their own place and order they can doe nothing in this by way of force without far lesse against Authority Hence Zanchius in his first Book of Images Thes. 4. sayeth Without Authority of the Prince it is lawfull to none in this Countrey to take Idoles out of Churches or to change any thing in Religion he that doeth so should be punished as seditious This he confirmeth by reason and by the testimony of S. Augustin Tom. 10. de Sermone Domini in Monte Homilia 6. And a little after he subjoineth Augustin handleth this Argument piouslie he dehorteth his people from such a practise and sayeth That it is pravorum hominum furiosorum circumcellionum 8.