persecution when the Church was least to be suspected of pride no Secular consideration being to flatter this power nay on the contrary they alwayes bore the first brunt of the Persecution and how none opposed it if this was not introduced by Apostles or Apostolical men passeth my divination Neither can any thing be alledged against this but some few or disjoynted places of some Authors which at most prove that they judged not the origine of Bishops to be Divine But none except Aerius branded upon that account with Heresie both by Augustine and Epiphanius â—id ever speak against the difference was betwixt Bishops and Presbyters And for the few places they alledge should I reckon up all that from these same Authors may be brought for it I should grow too tedious Ierom is he for whom they triumph but upon very small ground for beside that he being but a Presbyter might have exalted his own dignity to the height and his fervent I had almost said fiery spirit drives him along in every thing to an excesse as may appear from not only his ingadgements with Iovin Vigilan and Ruffin but even with the incomparable St. Austine all can be drawen from his words is that the difference betwixt Bishop and Presbyter was only of degree and not of office and that the difference was not of Divine but Ecclesiastical authority but even he expresly confesseth that Presbyters did not ordain and that the origine of the exercising power was in the dayes of the Apostles to prevent Schisms for he sayes that from the dayes of St. Mark till Denis and Heraclas there were constantly Bishops in Alexandria and he compares the Bishop Presbyters and Deacons in the Church to Aaron the High-priest his sons the Priests and the Levites in the Temple and sayes that it was decreed through the whole World that one Presbyter should be set over the rest and to root out the seeds of difference the whole care was laid upon one for all this see Ier. ad Euag. and upon Titus and from this you may see how little shew of ground there is from him or any other Church-writter to reject the Episcopal authority N. But these Bishops were not such as ours are C. I confess they were better men than either Bishops or Presbyters alive are But he knows little Church-story who knows not that the Presbyters did nothing without them and that particularly Presbyters could never ordain without a Bishop N. Well then as it was good then so it may be ill now and there is our present case C. I say still it is a rational just and a most necessary thing that the Senior and most approven Church-men be peculiarly incharged as well with the trial of Intrants as with the inspection of the Clergy since no order of men needs so much to be regulated as that of Church-men And therefore unless they be all equal in gifts and parts they ought not to be equal in power and authority If the power of Bishops be at any time abused it is but that to which all humane things are lyable nor can Presbytery be freed of that but let the common maxime in such cases be applyed to this remove the abuse but retain the use DIALOGUE IV. N YOu have said I confess a great many things that I cannot well answer yet my conscience still tells me that Episcopacy is no good Government and I cannot act against my Conscience C. You must remember this is the Plea of all Hereticks who still pretend Conscience I confess there is nothing in the world wherein I desire to be more tender than in offering the least violence to Conscience there not being a wider step to Atheism than to do any thing against the conviction of Conscience But see it be not humour and wilfulness that you scorn to change your opinion or love to your party whom you dare not displease or vanity that you may be noticed or faction Or simple and blind following of your Leaders without clear convictions in your own mind all which for most part are the true reasons of schisms though Conscience be ever pretended And remember that God will not hold them guiltless that take his Name in vain so you shall not pass unpunished if you pretend Conscience and be not acted by it N. How then must I examine any perswasion to know if it be conscience or not C. If you find in your heart a serious desire to please God in all things together with a desire of obeying the Laws of the Kingdom and of complying with the Church in what you judge lawfull but out of grounds which appear to you founded upon the will of God you are led to a perswasion this is Conscience provided there be joined with it a modest distrust of your self with a charitable opinion of those that differ from you And such as are of this temper were their judgements never so bemisted I reverence and love Weigh the matter therefore in just scales and I doubt you shall see that at best you are led by a blind and implicite obedience for I will not uncharitably censure you as guilty of worse N. You are so proudly blown up with an opinion of your self that you think all who are not of your mind are â—lind and ignorant at best whether is not this arrogance in you C. Consider my grounds ere you give a judgement against me I say then private persons have nothing to do with matters of Government your business is to submit in these things and not to judge For whether think you God in the great day will call you to answer at his Tribunal if you were Episcopal or Presbyterian As also since the great design of the Gospel is to purify the heart these things which have no tendency to the purifying or blotting of the Soul are not matters of Conscience And these are two easie Rules whereby private persons might well examine their Consciences N. But if we think you are wrong can we joyn with you C. First I say you can have no rational ground to think us wrong in matters of Religion And since it is not a matter of Religion and Salvation you cannot without being Schismatical separate from us But further even every errour in Religion ought not to unty the bond of the unity of the Catholick Church unless the errour be of greater importance than the Communion of Saints is a consideration which you never seem to weigh How did the Apostle St. Paul become a Iew to the Iews though he tells us to do these things out of an opinion of necessity in them was to antiquat the crosse of Christ. And let all men judge whether to circumcise and purify in the Temple were not greater compliances in matters more justly to be scrupled than what we contend about Nay the free spirit of Christianity made St. Paul see well that these externals were of themselves nothing so that either doing or forbearing in them might
than you will grant that all particulars must be determined since then as Moses determines the dayes of separation for a legal uncleannesse why doth not the Gospel determine the separation â—oâ— spiritual uncleannesse Nay further consider Moses instituted no Church-Government in the way we use it for that of the Tribe of Levi and house of Aaron was only Typical and to wait on the Temple and the Worship to be performed there Beside which they had Synagogues all the Land over and wherever they had Colonies in the World and in these they had their Rabbies their Scribes and their Rulers and their chief Ruler of their Synagogues which read their Law performed such Worship as was not tyed to the Temple at Ierusalem and they inflicted Discipline upon offenders and these might have been of any Tribe not only of that of Levi and yet our Saviour never challengeth this but went in to the rulers of their Synagogues the like you finde done by his Apostles and they never declame against it as an humane invention Whence it must follow that you must grant either what they did was founded on divine tradition which no Christian will grant or that a form of Government was devised by men and yet no unlawful thing And if the Jews had such liberty certainly the Christian Church is at least more free as to these externals And after all since Christ is the Head of the World as well as of the Church why did not he determine the order of the one as well as of the other N. The odds is very great for his Church is dearer to him than all the world C. Why then doth he not determine how his Church should be governed as to the civil matter since Justice is a part of his Law as well as devotion and the civil peace I hope you will grant is more necessary to the very being of the Church than is order in Discipline and so it was determined in the old Law but yet it is left at liberty in the new And though I should grant the Church as Church is dearer to Christ then as they are men a foolish and childish nicety Yet a King though he looks most to what is dearest to him he will have his authority acknowledged in all his dominions whence it will with the same parity of reason follow that since Christ is the King of the earth there should be no Offices in it but of his appointment N. I never loved this carnal reason it is an enemy to Religion Our Ministers bring us to the Bible for every thing they say but you come on with your reason C. Truly you have good cause to be against reason for it and you cannot both prevail If by carnal reason you mean a sober examining things by the dictates of Nature see that you condemn not that which is indeed the voice of God in us and therefor is to be received And if you make this contrary to Religion you bring as great a stain upon Religion as an Atheist could devise But if by reason you mean little pittiful nibling with some ill understood and worse applied distinctions out of Aristotle and Ramus as is very frequent among you that is justly called vain Philosophy And for Scripture do not think they build surest upon it who are ever quoting it fastest the Devil did that and so do all Sects And thus if you can rightly weigh things I have said enough to convince you that in matters of Government the Church is at liberty But if you will still go to Scripture I can positively say though in it nothing amounts to a demonstration There are fairer likelihoods for Bishops from that of the Angels of the Churches than ever you shall find in it for Presbytery but I will not say more of this Next let me tell you how soon this Government was in the Church N. I will not deny tares sprung very early in Gods Husbandry but that will never convince me To the Law and to the Testimony for from the beginning it was not so C. You do well to possess your self with a prejudice against these Churches but think soberly whether is it likelier that those who lived so nigh the sacred time understood the mind of the Apostles better then we do at the fagg end of an thousand and six hundred years As also whether is it liker that the Church then alwayes in the fire of persecution was purer then she is now God bless me from the pride of comparing my self with these worthies who were honoured to convert the world and to die for the truth N. But Bishops were not in the two first Centuries as our Ministers say C. They are grossly ignorant or disingenuous who say so all History being against them Ignatius Epistles are plain Language The Apostolical Canons a work of very venerable antiquity at least the first 50 of them though none of theirs perhaps all over shew the difference was then betwixt Bishops and Presbyters particularly the 40. Can. The Presbyters and Deacons shall finish nothing without the Bishop's sentence For he is intrusted with the people of God and shall be required to give account of their souls And the same thing was also enjoyn'd Syn. Azel Can. 19. And in Cyprian's time it is undenied that their power was then well regulate and settled For though that great Saint and Martyr tells lib. 3. Epist. 10. That he had decreed in the beginning of his Bishoprick to do nothing without the advice of his Presbyters yet Ep. 9. of that book to Rogatian a Bishop who had asked his advice concerning an affront he had received from a Deacon he sayes that by his Episcopal vigour and authority of his Chair he had power presently to punish him And towards the end of that Ep. he sayes these are the beginnings of Hereticks and the rise and designs of Shismaticks to please themselves and contemn their Bishop with insolent pride And it is clear Presbyters at that time even in the Vacancy of a See did not judge themselves sufficiently impowred for Ecclesiastical administration by what the Presbyters and Deacons of Rome write to Cypr. lib. 2. Ep. 7. saying That since a Bishop was not at that time chosen in place of the deceased Fabian there was none to moderate all things amongst them who might with authority and advice take account of matters Sure they thought little of Presbyters being equal in power to their Bishop who write so of a Church wherein the Episcopal power might seem devolved on them But I believe few of you know these Writings In the Council of Nice speaking of the power of Metropolitans which was an additional thing to that of Bishops over Presbyters The Canon sayes Let the ancient Customs be in force Now how this excressing power should have crept into the whole Church and no mention when it came in no temporal Princes nor universal Councils to introduce it and that at a time of
artificial and formal but in your discourse how few of your words are seasoned with salt ministring grace to the bearers which is a more genuine and native and so a more convincing way of commending Godlinesse to people But what great things of devotion or holinesse appear amongst you who of you despise the world give away your goods to the poor who bear injuries without resentments and revenge who are willing to be set at nought who are mortifying themselves even in the lawfull pleasures of sense who bear crosses without murmurings and for the devotional part who of you seem to live only to God and consecrat your time and strength to divine exercises truly these things are as little among you as any party â— know nay one thing I cannot passe by that you generally seem so desirous of being noticed iâ— your Religion this is far from our Saviour practice N. This is all your prejudicat opinion againâ— us but had you been ever with us at our Communions you would have been forced to confesâ— that God was amongst us C. I never denied it for I am far from being â— hidebound as to affix God to a party as you to confidentlie do But for your Communions I aâ— not like to be much convinced by them I cannâ— like your running so many miles to them this â—umultaurie and disorderlie for if it be the Sacrament it self you value you may have it neareâ— hand but this shews you idolize men too much â— Next at your Communions all your businesse iâ— to hear and talk whereas the truest preparation for that work is an inward stillnesse and recollection of mind and certainly much talk at that time particularly in the very action it self doth buâ— draw out and disturb the mind and by reason oâ— your crouds you cannot have occasion of such retirement as is necessary at so solemn a time And to speak plainly I cannot think persons very devout who love rather to hear one talk were it never so good purposes than to retire inwardly and commune with their own hearts and with God Some of you will be many hours in publick worship and perhaps not a quarter of an hour in secret devotions It would look likeâ— Christ to be many hours secret in prayer and very short in publick N. I see nothing among us pleaseth you but we are never the worse for all that C. Truly I cannot admire what I judge but simple and mean But another fault about your Communions was that you had them so seldom against the expresse practice of the Apostles who continued daily breaking Bread and the whole Church in all ages and places were frequent in this which you brought to once a year And who taught you to separate it from the rest of the solemn worship and not have it every Lords day N. That was that by the unfrequency of it it â—ight be the more solemn C. Then at length you confesse you use your â—wn devices to make the worship of God more â—lemn But it had been much liker the Apostles â—o have celebrate frequently but withall to have â—oticed well such as did receive N. Did you never observe the great devotion â— our worship C. Truly I am sorry I saw so little of it what â—rreverence is it that when prayer is in the â—hurch most of you â—it on your breeches is this â—o approach unto God with the reverence beâ—omes dust and ashes notwithstanding of the exâ—resse command of Scripture O come let us worâ—hip and bow down and kneel down before the Lord â—ur Maker and you cannot say this was one of Moses rites N. God looks not to the outward man it is â—he inward bowing and kneeling of the soul he regards and it is your superstition to stand much â—t these outward things C. But we are commanded to glorifie God as â—ell with our bodies as with our spirits And â—ow unhandsome is it that we will not testifie that reverence to God we would shew to a man were â—he but a few degrees above us beside you who alwayes call for Scripture ought quickly to be convinced here most Scripture-prayers being â—aid either to be in that posture or in that which comes next in reverence to it to wit standing Our Saviour kneeled when he prayed to the Father St. Paul both at Miletus and Tyre kneeâ— ed down and prayed with the people though â— Tyre it was upon the shore a pretty inconvenieâ— place for kneeling You know how much Scriâ— ture I can bring for kneeling or standing N. But it is written David sate before thâ— Lord and prayed C. But is not this strange that you will brinâ— one practice and follow that rather than the coâ— stant and universal practice registrated in Scriptureâ— Beside the word there doth not import that hâ— sate but rather that he sifted himself before thâ— Lord. And then you do not consider that prayeâ— was private and it is undoubted more solemnitâ— is necessary in publick than in the private worship Why then do you not kneel or stand in Churchesâ— since you do so in secret and in your Family-worâ— ship and why not as well if not rather in the one nor in the other truly this bewrayes both greaâ— weaknesse and great irreverence And beside thâ— irreverence of that wretched posture of â—itting it is so convenient for your ease that we see moâ— sold themselves to sleep in the prayers and sucâ— as do not so seem to listen to the prayer as theâ— do to the Sermon without thinking they are tâ— joyn in it And indeed to fit is so grosse an abusâ— in prayer unlesse some bodily infirmity imposâ— it that I rather not see you come to our Churchâ— es than come to them thus to give a bad example N. But since you named Family-worship take but notice what order was amongst our Families they looking like little Churches Our Masters of Families praying praising and expounding Scripture with their Families what was not this a heavenly thing C. I do approve of a part of it and think it a pious and a Christian custome to have Families worshipping God together providing the way of it be grave and regular of which I shall speak afterwards But for Masters of Families their expounding Scripture it is intollerable unlesse they be very intelligent persons How patent a way otherwise may this prove for venting and broaching errours and heresies but I would not have you value this too much Otherwise I shall send you to the religious houses in the Church of Rome where they have worship seven hours a day in a word those external things make not men good of themselves N. But I hope you will not condemn private meetings especially when a Minister is with us for spiritual conference C. Truly the thing in it self looks fair and well but since these secret assemblings have been much scandalized since also they may be a cloak for hatching mischievous practices and for debauching peoples minds
reproach for a man to grow wiser it can be none for a man to see he was once mistaken This generation was engaged by you ere they could well consider things to your way and your oaths and then you strive to keep them alwayes in a non-age by telling them they must be stedfast and that it is a snare after vowes to make enquiry And what strange doctrine is it to tax an obedience to the Laws of the Kingdom when in our consciences we can so do as time-serving Nay perhaps as I hinted before you are the greater time-servers N. Well though I owe charity to your perâ—ons yet I owe none to your wayes and I call what â—s black black therefore I can never be reconciâ—ed to your Episcopacy C. This head falls asunder in two things The one is a general consideration of that Government The other is supposing it were as you think it how far you ought to separate from what is â—misse Now tell me what are your quarrels at Episcopacy N. I cannot think that Church-men should be called Lords and be great persons C. This belongs not to the thing it self but is an addition of the Christian Magistrates and Sir â—or Lord and Gentleman and Nobleman differ but in degree Since then a Minister were he never so meanly born gets the temporal honour of a Gentleman put upon him why may not the temporal honour of a Lord be as well put upon a Bishop surely this must not be considered by you N. But they should not Lord over Gods heritage therefore away with your Lord Bishop C. If you understand all Scriptures as you do this you may write excellent Commentaries for by Lording is meant a tyrannical domination as the word clearly imports and not a title Next Gods heritage which you apply to the Clergy is not in the Text. All in the Greek is not tyrannizing over your Lots or divisions and with whatever reason you put down Bishops from being as Noblemen that same will prove you Ministers ought not to be Gentlemen excepâ— they be born such and I sear your Leaders wiâ— have no minde to this N. But this is not all my chief quarrel againâ— Bishops is that they are a function of mans deâ— vising and no where instituted by God C. Truly you may speak soberly here for beâ— fore I meddle with this I will shew in a few things that however you talked bigly of jus divinum yet you minded it as little as any could Youâ— Lay-Elders though I deny them not to be a good institution are founded on no Scripture as noâ— the most judicious of your party own For wheâ— you urge that because the Apostle gives rules onâ— ly for Bishops and Deacons that the other ordeâ— of Diocesan Bishops must be shuffled out how aâ— that same time did you not see that ruling Elderâ— were not there and the places you alledge foâ— them are so abused that it appears you firâ— resolve to maintain them and next to seek Scripâ— ture-proof for them The Brethren in the Council of the Apostles proves too much that theâ— are judges of doctrine which yet you will noâ— own Beside it is absurd to think that was â— Church Judicature as shall soon appear Thaâ— of ruling with diligence is fond for there is madâ— an emuneration of Christian duties and if you makâ— an office for all there we shall I have more ranks oâ— Church-men then they of Rome have And it iâ— palpable that by helps and Governments are meantâ— some extraordinary Gifts Who would not pity men who build upon such sandy foundations N. But what say you to the Elders that rule well C. Truly this is far from instituting an office for this speaks of an office then in being so by some other place you must prove their institution There are five or six several glosses put on these words but I protest I think any of them appears more genuine then yours That which I conceive the true sense of the words is Let such among you as are fixt to rule particular charges be doubly honoured but especially those Evangelists who have no medling with rule but labour in word and doctrine Thus you see how â—ill grounded your Elders are Next how want you Deacons N. It seems you know our Discipline ill that know not we had Deacons C. I know very well you had somewhat called Deacons but this was only a name to deceive the people who otherwise might have been startled to have found Deacons in their Bibles and not in your Churches but I tell you your Deacons are â—o Scripture-deacons who were not as yours are Lay-persons but Ecclesiastick and separate by the â—mposition of hands for that function and so were â—o continue Beside where was it ever heard of â—hat a Church-office was taken from any without â— fault whereas you yearly altered your Elders â—nd Deacons Next why wanted you Diaconesses â—nce the Scripture is so particular about them telling of their order of their being received to it of their Qualifications of their Age and of their Imployment N. Truly I have heard many of our Ministers say the want of them was a fault C. Next why wanted you Evangelists since there are still men who have peculiar eminencies in preaching why should they be confined to one charge and not to be made to preach over a countrey as they shall be called N. That was an extraordinary thing which was in the dayes of the Apostles C. This is well asserted any thing in Scripture that makes for you call it ordinary and what doth not please you is extraordinary But truly since it is impossible to get a whole Church served with such a Ministery as were to be desired it seems to be necessary even in those dayes to have an office of Evangelists But further in what place of Scripture read you your classical Subordination of Sessions to Presbyteries c This I acknowledge is rational and orderly but founded upon no divine right N. How did they of Antioch send up to these at Ierusalem and are not the spirits of the Prophets subject to the Prophets C. By the last place it is clear he is speaking of Parochial Churches which subjection none deny but for the former it is ridiculous to urge it since it is certain they of Antioch sent not up to Ierusalem either as to a Church superior to it or as to an Oecumenick Council but to men there who were immediatly inspired by God as the Iews consulted the high Priest his Uâ—im and Thummim and if that was a Council then all Councils may speak in their stile which none but a Papist can say For to preface our acts with It seems good to the Holy Ghost and yet to say we are subject to error is a contradiction And thus the subordination of your Courts was a meer humane device so that if the jus divinum be the rule the Independants had the better of you But as for your
we declare we are not only ready to unite with them but are extreamly desirous of it And if you will believe me I assure you I daily pray for them in this strain most cordially whereas there is nothing they fear more than an accommodation nay in their Books they directly own that all that can be done ought to be done for keeping life in our differences and who could ever have expected to have heard this doctrine in the school of Christ And let all men judge if there be not a bitternesse in the preface to Mr. Rhetorfort's letters the Apologetical Narration and Naphtali which is unsampled in any Satire not to say grave and Christian writing And what cursed doctrine is it Naphthali broacheth concerning private persons their punishing of crimes in case of the supinnesse of the Magistrate for ransack all the Provincial letters Escobar or the other profane Casuists of that wicked school you shall not find a more impious and detestable opinion among them and what cursed effects this produced all the Nation saw when in the sight of the Sun a vilain with a pistol invaded the persons of two of the Fathers of the Church and that in the chief street of our royal City And though the providence of God shielded the one totally from his fury and preserved the life of the other though with the losse of his arm all shattered with the wound yet his malice was not to be blamed for that asassinations were only wanting to compleet the parallel betwixt that spirit and the Iesuits which is indeed the same spirit moving in different Characters I do not charge the fact on that party but acknowledge I never spoke with one who did not express their abhorrency of it but without all uncharitableness I may charge it on the Author of Naphthali N. But one thing ever sticks with me I confesse at our last discourse you gave me good rules in order to a Christian life but still you design to make me regardlesse of the state of the Church which is that I be only self-concerned and neglect the interests of Christ whereas what ought to be dearer to me then the glory of God and surely when that suffers all that love him will be tenderly affected so was David and Ieremiah for the desolations of their times and it is a strange piece of Religion to be unconcerned in Gods glory which is to be like Gallio to care for none of these things C. All things have two sides so this doctrine of resignation if you look to it on the wrong one seems like unconcerned stupidity yet rightly considered it is one of the highest pieces of Christianity for if you believe which you must believe else you are no good Christian that Christ governes his Church you must also believe that he doth all things well since he hath all power in heaven and earth committed to him and in him are all treasures of wisdom and of knowledge and he loved his Church so that he died for it Now since his power enables him to do what he pleaseth and his goodness inclines him to please what is best and his wisdom cannot erre in the choice Where is there rowm for any miscarriage in the government of the World why then are we to vex our selves with any anxiety doth not that tacitly accuse God as if he did not mind his Church as he ought or doth it not imply if we were of his council we could adjust things better Therefore as in all our personal concernments we ought to go about our duty with diligence leaving events wholly to Gods care So in the publick conceâ—nments of his Church we are to commit the management of them to him on whose shoulders the Government was laid by the Father and rest securely in this perswasion that all things cooperat in promoting the grand designs of eternal wisdom and goodness but still we are to concern our selves in the good of the Church above all things next to the salvation of our own souls but this is to be expressed as in our most servent solliciting of God in behalf of his Church to which we are oblidged as well as to pray for our selves we thereby expressing to God our zeal for his glory and our servent charity to the brethren so also we are to let no opportunity slip that God puts in our hands of doing good But as we are called we are to do good as far as our station reacheth and that upon all hazards yet even in that we are with David not to meddle in matters too high for us and with St. Paul not to stretch our selves beyond our own measure and line but withall we are to let no inward dejecting melancholy possess our souls which is contrary to the end of Religion wherein we are called to rejoyce evermore it being contrived of God to beget in us joyes which cannot be taken from us and nothing marrs the souls inward joy in God more than such sorrowes N. But all this is still contrary to the holy men of God What sad complaints are in the Psalms and Prophets and chiefly in the Lamentations And certainly we in the new dispensation enjoying a clearer manifestation of the love of God ought to be so much the more zealous for his glory C. It seems you consider little the difference of the two dispensations for that of Moses was carnal chiefly made up of temporal promises of an external prosperity so these outward desolations were then signes of Gods displeasure against them and therefore they did lament because of them but now the Scene is wholly altered and these outward afflictions and persecutions are so far from being curses as they were of old that our Saviour hath pronounced them blessings yea he hath made these trials the Badges of our conformity to our Head who was made perfect through sufferings And therefore we are to glory and rejoyce in our sufferings as did the Apostles and in the primitive Church though they were made havock of in the most cruel manner some torn by Lyons and other wilde beasts some killed by the sword some burnt in the fire some roasted on Gridirons some thrown in boyâ—ing Caldrons some had their flesh torn off by pincers some were starved to death by hunger and cold in a word all the crueltie that diabolical malice could devise was exercised upon them yet not only the Martyrs themselves bore all singing in the midst of their tortures but the Churches also rejoyced in it And the dayes of their death were Festivals called naetalitiae Martyrum they counting their Martyrdom their most glorious birth And by the Epistles Eusebius inserts in his History we see they were far from complaining because of their sufferings But you because the Lawes are altered and the Magistrate hath denied you further encouragement and punished you not for your Conscience of which you cannot brag much since none hath suffered because he was for Presbytery or against