it publikly in all partes or the most of Christendome since the happy time of our blessed Sauiour and therefore that our Church hath alvvaies bin a visible state though not so stately as they boast of theirs to their ovvne shame if Saint Augustin may be iudge vvho calleth Rome in regard of this pompe and pride the Western Babylon the second Babylon another Babylon de cinit d 16. c. 17. l. 1 22.27 the daughter of the former Babylon the earthly citie Yet for their further satisfaction I further aske of them doe not they thēselues say they beleeue all these former points doe they not stand vpon it that they haue euer so professed Is there any thing in there religion of more moment and vveight or any other part of doctrine besides these absolutely necessarie to saluation vvhy then doe they aske vs vvhere and by vvhome this religion of ours vvas professed before Luthers time May vve not vvell and charitably affirme that it vvas professed in Fraunce Spaine and Italy yea in Rome euer since first Rome embraced the gospell preached by the Apostles Doubtlesse I am persvvaded that many thousands euen nowe in these countries where the popes keyes preuaile doe truely hold the 12. articles of the Apostles creede and Athanasius his creede which he calleth the Catholike faith with all the other points of doctrine set down before which if they doe holding the foūdation though they build vpon it woode hay 〈◊〉 3. or stubble that is some erroneous doctrine yet they are the true Church of God and shall be saued A pearle is a pearle though in an heape of dust wine is wine though mingled with water and wheate is wheate though couered with much chaffe and is not the mysterie of godlinesse whereof Paul speaketh god manifested in the flesh 〈◊〉 3. iustified in the spirit seene of Angels preached vnto the Gentils beleeued on in the world receiued vp in glorie still the mysterie of godlinesse and that trueth and sure foundation whereō the house of god is builded though matter vnsutable vnto it be laide vpon it yes verely And therefore seing the Church of Rome hath euer held the misterie of godlinesse though mingled with many dregs of mens inuentions I doubt not but God hath euer had a people amongst them and a true Church more then 7000. which haue not bowed the knee vnto Baal what we are to thinke of their leaders and teachers which indeed haue corrupted this doctrine with their owne leauen and endeauoured by all meanes to shut vp and obscure this mysterie is another question especially for those that haue done it wilfully and malitiously and died in that malice But of the rest thus we iudge and thus we answere that so many as truely holde and professe all the former articles of doctrine as I assure my selfe many doe are fellowe members with vs in the same mysticalll bodie whereof Christ is the head And therefore our church hath euer beene in theirs though not euer so manifest to the eye of the worlde as it was for the space of the first fiue hundred yeares Me thinkes this answere should well content them and fully satisfie them being so charitable towards them But to giue them an answere of their owne and by themselues to let them see that the true Church is not alwaies so visible as they pretende They knowe that nowe in England they haue not authoritie to countenance their religion and Church and yet they say that they haue a Church amongest vs and where they dare well say it they are bold to say it is a great one yea the greter part though I trust they shall neuer prooue it in that number Why then in persecution and when the Lord punisheth the vnthankefulnesse of men with taking awaie our publike and autorised assemblies may not we as well haue a church holding the true faith of Christ according to his word as they now a flocke cleauing to the Bishop of Rome M. Rome hath alwaies beene called the Mother Church and they doe ioyne with that Rome is not he mother Church S. Howe can Rome be the mother church when shee is later then those first churches of Hierusalem and Antioche Can a mother be yonger then her daughters or her daughters elder then their mother The very scriptures teach vs that all churches and euen Rome it selfe haue risen out of the Churche of Hierusalem Fou out of Sion shall his lavve come and the word from Hierusalem M. You answer me well that Rome cannot be the mother Church of al because other churches haue beene before her Neuertheles of this Church of England shee is rightly the mother because this land receiued the faith frō her first by Eleutherius the Pope and martir who sent Daminianus and Fugatius to teach it to the Britanes at the request of their king who was then Lucius and after by Gregory the great who sent Augustine and Melitus with other holy priests to teach our auncestours the english who then were planted here and had remooued the Brittaines into an other corner S. Deare mother all this you are taught and told by them who abuse gods people bought with his pretious blood But it hath beene answered truely that this can not be so For first Eleuth confesseth in his answer to king Lucius his message that he had the scriptures wherin were the lawes of God farre more to be regarded then the Romane lawes he praiseth his zeale and telleth him that out of the scriptures with the aduise of his counsell he might draw conuenient lawes for his kingdome he beeing in his owne land Christs vicar c. Howe then was Eleutherius his first Apostle Againe doth not Nicephorus plainely saie in his story Simō Zelotes doctrinam Evangelij ad occidentalium Oceanum in sulasque Brittanicas perfert Lib. 2. c. 40 Simon Zelotes carried the doctrine of the gospell vnto the west Ocean sea and vnto the Islandes of Britraine This was before Eleutherius Doe not others write that Ioseph of Arimathea did it hat S. Paul in his passage this way into Spain did it and alleadge authors for it Might not the Greekes doe it or some others since euidently it appeareth by Eleutherius his own cōfession he was not the first Then for Augustine and the rest doe not these plaine testimonies of the fathers vsually alleadged to this end satisfie any man liuing not way warde that this land had the faith before him and them Tertullian liued about the yeare of our Lord 210. And his words are these Brittannorum in accessa Romanis loc a subduntur Christo 〈◊〉 Iudaeos The countries of Britane which the Romanes coulde never attaine vnto are now subiect to Christ Origen about the yeare 212 writeth Ezech. hom Terra Brittanniae in religionem Christi consensit The land of Britane hath yeelded to Christ his religion ◠Apolog. 2. Athanasius about the yeare three hundred thirtie foure hath the like
the tares were cast into the good fielde Shall not a white head be taken so to be vnlesse the precise beginning of white haires be known A chinke in a wall is spied and mended but the beginning vsually vnknown When the Scribes and Pharises had corrupted religion what bookes doe we reade to be written against them How able were Ioseph Simeon Marie Anna c. to confute them Falshood is falshood though no man write against it And therefore let the doctrine of poperie he sifted whether it be sound or no and the beginning let goe of which yet you see what I haue said M. Sonne you haue said much and still I wish that one of vs would heare another more then we do I see I see it is profitable god hath commaunded meanes and liketh meanes S. Mother many a good man and woman that nowe liueth in ignorance woulde heare and reade but that they are so terrified in holes and corners by false charmers vnder the paine of excommunication not to doe it nor to conferre with any Yea they are often snared with an oath not to doe it and all to keepe them in darknesse because the hooded hauke is quietest and Sampson when his eies be out may be mocked and vsed at will but the Lord is able to touch his peoples hearts to thinke of their craft and cast from them such deceitfull workes which I beseech him to doe euen with speede For the impietie and boldnesse of these wicked charmers is great and worthily reprooued by S. Hierome who saith of some in his time that they did tantam sibi assumere authoritateÌ„ in Esai l. 9. c. 3. vt siue dextra docerent siue sinistra id est siue bona siue malanolint discipulos ratione discutere sed se praecessores sequi some did take such autority vpon them that whether they taught right or wrong good or badde they would not haue their auditours to examine it but to followe them M. Yea but it is a great matter sonne in our eyes that the Church of Rome hath alwaies beene a visible state maintaining that doctrine visible I say and still appearing and knowne whereas your church before Luthers time either was not at all or was hidde as some say and your doctrine not receiued by publike authoritie S. But good mother you know trueth is trueth although the whole world were set against it And therefore still I wish your eye bent not vpon the fauour of the world for that is commonly against the good and for the badde but vpon the face of almightie God his good pleasure and the rule thereof his worde And then for answere to this obiected which seemeth so strong a bulwarke in the iudgement of many Papists â—â—e â— church 〈◊〉 nor alwaies â—â—sible first I say that the true church is not alwaies visible in the worlde as they take visible that is glorious in credit and fauour supported by authority of worldly powers so that all people may know whether to resort vnto it For the Church is either Catholike 1. vniuersall or particular The Catholike or vniuersall church cannot be seene and therfore we beleeue it as an article of our faith Credo sanctam ecclesiam Catholicam Symb. Apost I beleeue that there is an holy Catholike Church not as some would haue it I giue credit to the church and beleeue what soeuer it teacheth for then it should be Credo Ecclesiae not Credo Ecclesiam Sentent l. 3. distinct 2â— There is great difference saith P. Lumbard following S. Austen betwixt Credere Deum Credere Deo and Creaere in Deum the first is to beleeue that there is a God the second to giue credance vnto God and to beleeue all that tâ—u which he speaketh the third to rely vpon god and to put our confidence in him for protection and blessing So doubtlesse may I say that there is an apparent difference betwixt Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam Credere Ecclesiae Caetholicae and Creaere in Ecclesiam Catholicam the first is to be assuredly perswaded and to beleeue that there is a Catholike Church which is the meaning of the article as the very phrase of speach sheweth and the other articles following Credo communionem Sanctorum I beleeue that there is a communion of Saints Credo remissionem peccatoruÌ„ I beleeue that there is a remission of sinnes Credo carnis resurrectionem I beleeue that there is a resurrection of the flesh c. The second Credere Ecclesiae catholicae is to giue credit vnto the Catholike Church and to embrace as trueth whatsoeuer the Church shall propound vnto vs which can not be the sense of the article except we will both confound these two phrases Credere Eccslesiam and Credere Ecclesiae so accurately distinguished by the master of the sentences and S. Augustin and make the wordes of men equall with Gods word The third Credere in Ecclesiam Catholicam is wholly to depend vpon the Catholike Church which we cannot make the sense of the article without violence to the wordes and great blasphemie to God Thus much by the way and by your gentle patience good mother of this article and the true meaning of it in generall because the mistaking thereof hath misled some into errour Now to returne seeing we beleeue the vniuersall or Catholike Church it followeth that it can not be seene â—eb 11.1 For faith as the Apostle writeth is the ground of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seene Not seene I say againe and intreat you to marke the worde And that a particular Church is not alwaies seene the storie of Elias prooueth pregnantly who could not see one and therefore was wery of his life â—ing 19.18 whereas God had kept vnto himselfe euen then when he complained and in that place where he liued yea in the middest of that people of whome he complained 7000. that had not bowed their knees vnto Ball. What may we thinke of these 7000. among the tenne trikes of Israel were they not Gods people worshipping him in spirit and in truth or is not the nuÌ„ber sufficiet to make a church Surely the number might well make seuen glorious particular Churches Rom. 1â— and the Apostle saieth of them first that God had kept them to himselfe secondly that they were his people thirdly that he knewe them before to wit in his eternall councell and almighty God himselfe to his prophet acknowledged them as his beloued and promised his protection vnto them that they should be safely kept Reasons 1. Reg. c. 19 1â—.17 18. I suppose sufficient both for number and weight to prooue that God had his church in that place and at that selfe same time when where the prophet Elias complained for want of a Church and fellowe members to worship God with him O if so many so deare vnto god at one time in one countrie worshipping the true God truly by the testimony of
that good woman Lydia the purple seller 〈◊〉 16. whose heart was also opened This blessed gift doth the Apostle think of when he wisheth to the Ephesians the spirit of wisdome and revelation that the eyes of their vnderstanding might be opened â—hes 1.17 lightned that they might knowe c. So to the Philippians and to the Colossians and of this speaketh Elihu in the booke of Iob â—lip 1.9 â—lost 1.9 There is a spirit in man but the inspiration of the almighty giueth vnderstanding Iob 32.8 This did king Dauid knowe and therefore asked this heauenly gift by earnest prayer often saying Teach me O Lord teach me thy statutes teach me thy waies open mine eyes that I may beholde the wonderfull things in thy lawe Origen saith Orandus est Deus vt aperiat librum obsignatum we must beseech God by prayer to open the booke that is sealed The Lord is no respect of persons but as he hath done he will doe and heare the desires of his children that wish to know his will This is the way mother this is the way that neuer failed any who vsed it neither will it faile you But you shall see by it the true and right applying of the scriptures howsoeuer others abuse and mis-construe them In a worde therefore marke I beseech you that we doe not affirme all cases of doubt to be by manifest and open wordes plainely expressed in scripture for so there should neede no exposition but we say and affirme that there is no case in religion necessarie to Gods worship or mans salvation so darke and doubtful but it may necessarily be either prooued or disprooued by true collection and conference in scripture M Sonne I marke your speech well and your words fall not to the ground yet I hope you will confesse that our men doe well in regarding the doctours as they doe S. Surely mother I doe confesse the doctours of the Church worthy of more regard then is giuen them sometimes by Romish Catholickes Doctoures And you see by my alleadging of them that I greatly regard them But seeing you haue mentioned this matter I doe hartely intreat you to marke a fewe things in that behalfe First that they are not Domini sedduces nostri Not our Lords but our leaders And therfore S. Augustin saith Other writers or fathers besides the holy scriptures I read in this sort that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great I wil not thinke it true because they haue thought so but because they are able to perswade me so either by Canonicall writers or els by some likely reason Likewise againe This kind of writings meaning the holy doctoures must be reade not with necessitie to beleeue each thing but with libertie to iudge each thing For we may not consent to the bishops notwithstanding they be Catholike â—nit Eccl. c. if they iudge contrarie to the holy Canonicall scriptures This is the right credit of holy fathers they are not the trueth of God it selfe but onely witnesses vnto the trueth no more haue they they theÌ„selues euer desired no lesse ought we euer to giue them Heare I pray you the words of the same father againe we receiue not the disputations or writings of any men be they neuer so Catholicke or praise-worthy Fortunat. â—â—t 111. as we receiue the Canonicall scriptures but that sauing their reuerence we may well reprooue or refuse some things in their writings if it happen we finde they haue otherwise though then the trueth may beare them out such am I in the writings of others and such would I wish others to be in mine He writeth to S. Hierom againe to the same effect Non puto frater ep 19. c. My brother I doe not thinke you would haue vs so to read your bookes as if they were written by the Apostles and Prophets To the like purpose writeth Tertullian of himselfe and the rest wherein their holy modestie is worthy great praise for euer they tooke not vpon them to be Lords but leaders and to that ende the Lord hath giuen theÌ„ as excellent lights to his church So of Counsels S. Austen telleth vs that the former are reiected by the later c. Likewise Panormitan saith vve ought to giue more credit to on lay man then to an whole councell and to the Pope if he bring better authority and more reason This is my first obseruatioÌ„ in this matter of the doctours My secoÌ„d is this which I humbly pray you to marke that as scriptures haue beene abused by heretiques so haue fathers and therefore if we must giue ouer the one for mis-applyings so must we the other also for the same reason The Arrian heretiques alleadged Origens bookes for their defence and safegard Socr. l. 4. c. Concil Ch act 2. p. 732 the heretique Eutiches saide I haue read the writings of the father Saint Cyprian as also of other holy writers and of the holy father Saint Athanasius Another of his sect cryed this is my faith according to the exposition of 318 fathers The Nestorian heretiques alleadged the Counsel of Nice p. â—â—7 and not to weary you with many Dioscorus the heretique cried out in the open Councell of Chalcedon 〈◊〉 1. p. 767. Ego habeo testimonia sanctorum patrum I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers Athanasius Gregory Cyrill I varie not from them in any point I am thrown forth and banished with the fathers I defend the fathers doctrine I haue their iudgement vttered not by chaunce or vnaduisedly but remaining expressed in their bookes Therefore you see good mother that heretiques haue cried as well fathers fathers as scriptures scriptures and yet neither the one nor the other for this cause to be reiected My third obseruation might be of counterfeit and young yesterday fathers alleadged by papists and of small credit or reuerence giuen to fathers by them that boast thus of fathers when they please whereof I assure you we haue notable examples with many things moe but that I feare to be troublesome vnto you M. Yet sonne seeing our faith was long before yours me thinks the fathers should rather make for vs then for you S. And why say you not so of the scriptures which were many yeares before any of the fathers Surely if your faith were before ours Old faith as well scriptures as fathers would giue on your side and indeed both would make for you New faith the fathers desiring to holde nothing but that they iudged agreeable to scripture which euer they make the rule and ground of faith and trueth and not their own writings as you haue seene But good Mother they abuse you and many moe that tell you your faith that is as nowe you meane the Romish faith was before ours for I assure you it is not so but very newe and younge in comparison of ours M. What our faith newe Sonne yours old Alas I see these
this father that I named vnto you saith they wrot that which they deliuered and they wrote it by the will of God as not trusting tradition vnwritten and they wrote it to be for euer the ground of our faith noting that vnwritten tradition may not be the ground because it is vncertain and full of imperfection as I could shewe you if we were to speake of that matter Therefore seeing this which is written is certainly and assuredly that which they deliuered and we hold nothing but that which is agreeable to this which is written you see it is most plaine that we holde nothing but that which the Apostles themselues deliuered and so our faith the old faith which was from the beginning and first M. Surely if you holde nothing but that which is written it is certaine that that which was written was deliuered by the Apostles and so it followeth that you hold nothing but that which was deliuered by the Apostles and Prophets and therfore your faith olde indeede and not to be reiected And for tradition although we may be told that this and that was deliuered by the Apostles and their successours and so by them to theirs againe to this day yet I must needes confesse that is not so manifest and plaine as which is written neither doth it yeeld such contentment to my conscience But I can not tell what to say it is a sure and steadfast way to trust to that which is written rather then to that which is reported and yet I am loath â—o offend you shal giue me leaue to pause think more of it S. Yea deere Mother and with the hart of a dutifull child I say the father of our Lord Iesus Christ lighten the eyes of your vnderstanding in all things to the glory of his great name and your eternall comfort but be you assured in this that we hold nothing as needfull to our saluation but that which is written in expresse wordes or by sure and plaine collection and therefore make the consequence as the Lord shall direct you M. Howe then commeth it to passe that your religion is still called new new S. Even as I told you before it is one of Satans trickes to discredit trueth and hath in all times beene vsed of him But as then your selfe collected by that which I alleadged that it is not safe to be lead by tearmes and names without due considering howe iustly and truely they are giuen so I beseech you do here again and be not mooued with the name for questionles there can nothing be more spitefully spoken against the religion of God then to accuse it of noueltie as a matter lately found out For as there can be no change in God himselfe so ought there be no change in his religion Yet still I say Satan hath taken this course euen from the beginning to call trueth newe which indeede is not onely of greatest antiquitie but also froÌ„ euerlasting That vngratious blood thirstie Haman when he sought to procure the king Assuerus his dspleasure against the Iewes vsed this slaunder against them of noveltie telling the king that he had in his domion a kinde of people that vsed certaine newe lawes of their own c. Act. 1â— WheÌ„ Paul also began first to preach and expound the Gospel at Athens he was called a tidings-bringer of new Gods that is of a newe religion for said the Athenians may we not knowe of thee what newe doctrine this is Origen again telleth vs of Celsus that when he wrot of set purpofe against Christ to the ende he might scornefully scosse at the gospell he accused it of noueltie and said Orig. conâ—a Câ—lsum vvhat hath God after so many ages now at last bethought himselfe whose vile blasphemies that auncient father in his bookes written against him answereth Eusebius also saith that the Christian religion from the beginnnig for verie spite was called new and straunge Euseb l. 1 c. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sentence was giuen of condemnation that S. Audrewe should be crucified for teaching and enterprising a newe sect and taking away the religion of their Gods Shall we then bee mooued with this tearme and carried away with this name No God forbid These examples are a faire warning for vs to take heede of that lightnesse and rashnesse Let the deuil rage against trueth with what names God shall suffer him and his members yet this shall euer stand that the doctrine of the Church is elder then any Idolatrie or superstition of the Gentiles that the doctrine of the Gospell was preached in Paradise by God himselfe saying The seede of the vvoman shall bruise the serpentâ— head That the writings of Moses are elder the any writings of the Gentiles the doctrine of the Apostles elder then Popery or any other heresie and that we at this day hold nothing as I haue often said but what appeareth out of the Apostles owne writings alowed both by vs and our aduersaries to be their vvritinges to be their ovvne doctrine deliuered to the Church to be beleeued and for men and vvomen to be saued by M. Surely I see still it is not safe to be carried away vvith names and to beleeue all to be nevve vvhich is called so or all olde vvhich is named olde for so vve may be deceiued But yet in shevve of the vvorlde ours hath had a longer continuance then yours S. I must needes here once againe remember you what I meane by your religion to wit those pointes of doctrine onely wherein you differ from vs. And then I answer first that your religion euen in shewe of the world hath not had a longer continuance then ours especially for the principall points whereon wee stand as namely 1. the articles of our Creede which is a briefe and summe of catholik faith as Athanasius plainely witnesseth Symbol Athanas Haee est fides Catholica and the Councell of Trent confesseth 1. the acknowledgment of gods diuine law and the worshipping of god according to that law 3. the doctrine of repentance froÌ„ dead workes and of faith in Iesus Christ for the remission of sinne 4 the doctrine of the Sacraments Baptisme and the Lords supper which are the fundamentall points of out faith and religion and the rocke whereon we build our soules and Church and without controuersie of greater antiquity then those points of doctrine which we call popery Besides I answer although your religion in shew of the world were more ancient then ours yet that ought to be no disparagement to ours or aduaÌ„cemeÌ„t to yours for god afflicteth his church as pleaseth him maketh vs see that it is like the moone whervnto it is compared now growing now ful now waining we may not mesure truth by worldly couÌ„tenaÌ„ce but by that rule which neuer faileth the word of God and if our faith be that which there is taught warraÌ„ted the you haue heard which is the old true Catholik faith
indeed and therfore to be receiued helde and defended though for a thousand yeares the Lord hath made it a straunger in this or that place to punish thereby the sinnes of a kingdome or countrie Vetus consuetudo non praeiudicat veritate Olde custome doth not preiudice the truth saith good S. Austen Nec dici debet â—ug De Ciuit. l. 10. c. 32. quare modò quare sero quoniam mittentis consilium non est humauo ingenio penitrabile Neither may we say why commeth it now Good Mother marke it why commeth it so late for the councell of God that sent it is vnsearchable to the wisdome of man Thus speake the Papists in these daies where was your religion before Luther where hath it beene this many hundred yeares had God no Church till now c. But S. Austen telleth theÌ„ they speake not well they ought not to say so for Gods councell is known to himselfe and we cannot reach vnto it Religionis autoritas non est tempore estimanaa sed numine nec quo die sedquid colere caeperis iutueri convenit quodenim verum est serum non est The autority of religion must be weighed by god not by time we must coÌ„sider not vpon what day but vvhat thing we began to worship the thing that is true is neuer to late The Iesuits tell vs wonders of their conuerting the Indians and other people to the Romish faith and woulde they like that those nations should say where hath this religion beene all this while woulde they not say as Arnobius saith that which is true should euer be vvelcome Arnob. coâ—â— Genâ—â— howe long soeuer the time of darkenesse hath beene Why doe they then teach any to stand vpon such questions against the Gospel nowe preached Our Sauiour saith If I speake the trueth vvhy doe you not beleeue me and that is the good issue indeede to consider the matter whether it bee true or no which is euer found by the weight of the sanctuary the word of God Certenly we teach no false religion but offer the trueth for issue praying that if it be found true by the touchstone mentioned it may be entertained and so much the more hartely by how much shee hath beene long from home For so wee deale with our friendes and doe not vtterly denie them if they haue beene long away Certenly we haue planted no newe religion but renewed the olde I meane in respect of certen pointes corrupted by your men that was vndoubtedly founded and vsed by the Apostles of Christ and other holy fathers in the primitiue Church of this long late time by meane of the multitude of Romish traditions and vanities hath beene drowned with traditions fantasies though painted with colour of antiquity and continuance yet are new vaine and naught M. I cannot deny sonne but it is true that you say there may be vetustas erroris an antiquity of error for you know I haue some latin not yet forgotten and â—here may be a late beginning of truth in some particular place but it followeth not that either the error is truth because it hath bin continued long or the trueth error because in that place it was receiued but lately I like not this kind of reasoning whosoeuer vseth it for it is not sound neither stateth the conscience S. Good mother I know well you vnderstand the latin tongue and therefore haue I repeated many testimonies in latin to giue you your due praise this ability being not ordinary in women And what you say I thanke God hartely for praying you to consider that there be men on your side which so reason and so say Popery hath bin in england so long therefore it is truth and the gospel was reuiued but of late therfore it is error heresy apostasie and what not Surely mother you haue touched the quick such arguing is loose and staieth not the coÌ„â—cience it followeth not but is very childish Men may be called at the eleuenth houre yet as truly called as they who were brought into the vineyard at the very first and as fully shall be regarded if they come then The Lord may doe with his own as pleaseth him M. Yea but what say you sonne to our baptisme for that is a matter of moment we were all baptised into the Romish faith and vowed at the font to continue in the same Howe then shall we start from it without breaking our vow and offending both god and man In what faitâ— baptized S. Deare mother here first I wish a lattise window in my breast that the ioy of my heart for these your questions so fit and pertinent I hope profitable might appeare vnto you for they lead vs as it were by the hand to the consideration of those things which may fully satisfie any Christian heart And who can tell what the Lord of mercy wil doe who willeth not he death of a sinner but would haue al meÌ„ saued come to the knowledge of the trueth The Lord Iesus Christ who is the true sheapheard samp bishop of our soules giue a blessing to our conference Then to your doubt so well and to so good purpose moued I answere thus God forbid that either all or any of vs had beene baptized into the Romish faith You are deceiued and those cursed charmers that whisper such things to Gods people and cast such stumbling blockes before their eyes to turne theÌ„ out of the right way shall answer the Lord for so doing You are taught and told that all those who were baptised in those times when popery was receiued by the realme of England were baptized into the Romish faith which is not so wherein appeared the great mercy and goodnesse of God in preseruing the Sacrament of entrance and admission into Gods Church pure and sound concerning the substance of it euen in the greatest darkenesse and authority of popery This therefore I pray you vnderstand that we were all baptized in the time of popery into the same faith which nowe wee hold and baptize children in that is into the faith of the 12. articles for thus said the priest then in latin Credis in deum patrem c. as the minister doth now in English Doest thou beleeve in God the father almighty c. And the godfathers and godmothers answered then in the name of the child Credo as we doe nowe answere All this I stedfastly beleeve Then said the priest in latin againe as the minister doâ—h nowe in english wilâ— thou be baptized in this faith they answered then for the childe volo we nowe that is my desire Then tooke the pâ—â—â—st water and saide in laâ—in Ego baptizo te in nomine â—atris c. we say the same in engâ—â—â— I baptize thee in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost And this beeing the substance of baptisme see howe the Lord preserued it euen then pure and holy and all one was baptisme then
God himselfe were hidde from so great a Prophet why may we not thinke that in the many mightie nations of Christendome there haue indeede beene many thousands more belonging to God then the eie of any man could discerne S. Augustin saith Aliquando in sola domo Noah Ecclesia erat â—â—l 128. in solo Lot domo eius Ecclesia erat in solo Enoch Ecclesia erat Sometimes the Church was onely in Noah his house sometime in Abraham alone sometime in Lot alone and his house sometime onely in Enoch Therefore neither a particular church is euer so visible as papists would make it wheÌ„ it lieth hidden sometimes in one house sometimes in one man Assuredly S. Augustin was farre from that opinion when he wrot thus â—nit Eccl. c3 c. 16. asch c. 14. Looke therefore howe Christ was knowen when he was vpon earth so is his Church namely by the worde not by the outwarde Pompe and shewe Shee cannot be hidde from those that still diligently seeke her in the scriptures where onely I say againe the certaine knowledge of her is to be found â—al 10. Neuerthelesse shee is compared by S. Augustin and many more to the moone which is often hidde and he acknowledgeth that shee may be so secret that the members know not one another Persecutions haue bin so great that the world sawe not for a long time together such an outward shewe â—â—g de bapâ—â— cont Doâ— l. 6. c. 4. as Popery speaketh of Dioclesian and Maximinian boasted that they had vtterly abolished the superstition of Christ as they call it and name of Christians The like diuelish boasting made Nero in his time where was then this visible face of the Church so glorious that notable place of the Apostle what shall we say to it They were tried by mockings Heb. 11.36 c. and scourgings yea moreouer by boÌ„des and imprisonment they were stoned they were hewen a sunder they were tempted they were slaine with the sword they wandred vp and downe in sheepe skinnes and in goat skins beeing destitute afflicted and tormented whoÌ„e the world was not worthy of they wandred in wildernesses and mountaines and dennes caues of the earth Were not these the childreÌ„ of God were not these the Church what outward pompe had these men in the worlde to mooue others ledde by such inducements to resort vnto them O folly therefore to dreame of any such thing Howe differeth it from that errour of the disciples exspecting an earthly kingdome of their master and worldly preferments for themselues That vision of the woman forced to flie into the wildernesse to avoide the rage of antichrist Apoc. 1â— doth it not convince my conscience that the Church is hidde sometimes from mens eies Howe can that Church be saide to flie into the wildernesse which hath alwaies a visible face a visible place a visible grace and glorie a great companie of fauourers might power authority c. were not Christ and his followers on earth the Church had they any such shewe Nay they were poore base and not regarded in comparison of the Scribes Pharisees high priests and that rabble You shall be hated of all men for my sake c saith our Sauiour of his Church and is this to be visible euer in the world in manner and forme now often mentioned who seeth not that it is farre from it And thus I hope I haue sufficiently cleared this first point that the Church is not alwaies visible as they meane visible which may suffice for answer to this vaine obiection of theirs as vtterly ouerthrowing the ground thereof yet I answere further first to their Church that no Romish Catholicke liuing and I pray you consider well what I say shall euer be able to prooue that there was any visible Church for fiue or sixe hundred yeares after Christ which maintained all or the cheife points of popery wherein they differ from vs. Then for our Church we truely affirme that it was long before Luther euen in the primitiue Church For we stand vpon this that we embrace and professe onely that doctrine which springeth as the water of life out of the sanctuarie that is out of the writings of the prophets and Apostles and therefore that our Church doth not differ saue that in degree of excellency from those famous churches planted and watered by the Apostles themselues which shall yet more manifestly appeare by the doctrine it selfe duly considered the main points whereof as hath been already touched in another place are these 1. Concerning the morall lawe of God comprised in tenne precepts that it is the perfect rule of righteousnes wherein we see as in a Christall glasse both what we should doe and what we doe not and howe farre short we are of that obedience which is required at our handes by god 2. The doctrine of repentance that finding of our selues transgressoures of Gods diuine lawe and guiltie of his wrath wee should in due humilitie and contrition of heart throwe downe our selues at the throne of his grace and in the anguish of our soules confesse our iniquities and rebellions against our selues and euerie man say with the poore Publican God be mercifull to me a sinner 3. The doctrine of faith that trauelling thus and groaning vnder the burden of our sinnes wee should goe vnto our Sauiour for ease comfort and refreshing that is that we should steadfastly beleeue that he died for our sinnes and rose againe for our iustification and eternall saluation â—om 4. 4. the doctrine of good workes and a godly life that we ought euer to bee carefull to abound in good workes and haue our conuersation in heauen 5. The doctrine of praier that we should in all our necessities call vpon God in the name of his sonne as our blessed Sauiour hath taught vs in the Gospell â—â—t 3. â—al 3. and especially that we should frequent the house of God by publike praier to speake vnto him and by his word to heare him speak vnto vs for instruction 6. The doctrine of the Sacraments Baptisme and the Lords supper 7. Lastly the twelve articles of our creede I beleeue in God c. These are the pillars and foundation of our religion yea the very soule and life of our Church and all of them founded grounded vpon the rocke Iesus Christ and his sacred word and without controuersie the very essence and beeing of all Churches that haue been euer or shall be to the ende of the world Wherefore when our aduersaries ask vs as they doe very often where was your church before Luther we may well answere as our Sauiour did in the Gospell by another question videlicet These points of doctrine before mentioned were they before Luthers time or no If they will ansvvere vs to this we vvill ansvver them yea they shall be forced to ansvver themselues that this doctrine is of god and from heauen and that there neuer vvanted some to professe