admitted in some others â—t in a scholler that pretends to haâ— reade the Question in him and â—â—th vrge his authoritie against the â—hurch of God such a pretence â—th no place §. III. Waldensis yeilding to the Scripture a preminence in Authoritie will haue vs depend â—on the Church for the sence of it 2. She is â—o to declare which bookes are Canonicall â—ripture A speach of Canus touching Walâ—sis his Opinion examined 3. When he saith 〈◊〉 Fathers testimonie hath abolished all Heâ—â—es he doth not exclude the Authoritie of 〈◊〉 Church symbolicall or representatiue 4 â—e symbolicall Church he saith against Wiâ—ef is not the Predestinated people only but 〈◊〉 Vniuersitie of right beleeuers spred ouer the whole world 5. He held that the Church of Rome cannot faile 6. and that perfect oecumenicall Councels be infallible in their decree HAecipsa fides authoritas Ecclesiae quantum homiâ—â— supergreditur rationem tantùm fateor diuina legis â—â—thoritati succumbit Baro p. 365. ex Waldensi Media est 〈◊〉 inter supremam authoritatem Scripturae infimam ratioâ— fides Ecclesiae Scripturas venerabiliter attollens exhibeus rationem vagam hominis ad hanc geminam authoritaâ— alligans zona Pauli Idem ex eodem 1. WALDENSIS saith the authoâ—â—tie of the Church is inferiour the authoritie of Scripture What this will you inferre that wee thâ—refore neede not obaie the decrâ—â— of Councells or that the Châ—â—ches authoritie is fallible Infallibâ—â—tie may be in others besides Scâ—â—pture The Apostles were not Scâ—â—pture yet were they infallible â—nesses of the trueth The Churcâ— the pillar and ground of trueth thoâ— the Church be not Scripture 1. Timoth. 3. Thâ— may be diuers Authorities infallâ— and one of them Subordinate to 〈◊〉 other And so are these two accâ—â—ding to this Author as you may â—by the places represented in the a Quamuis fides vniuersalis Ecclesiae inuenitur per Scripturas expressa ficut est paenè tota non tamen est eiâ—n authoritate par sed subijcitur Waldensis de principijs fidei Doctr tomo 1. li. 2. c. 21. Fides vt est Ecclesiae Catholicae in hoc accedit fidei Scripturarum quod non licet de ipsa dubitare eo quod testimoniuÌ„ Ecclesiae Catholicae est obiectuÌ„ fidei Christianae legis latio scripturae canonicae Subijcitur tamen ipsi sicut testis iudici testimonium veritati sicut praeconâ—zatio definitioni sicut praeco regi Ibâ—dem Quod aliquis pater vnus singulariter per se sensit potes aliquo saltem colore tuo decredere quod autem poenè omnes quasi vnus homo loquuntur fidei robur habet quia vnitas ipsa in Ecclesia hoc loquitur omnium gentium linguis Idem c. 25. margine One onely I will putt here because it serues also for that which followes In the 18. Chapter of his 2. Booke Doct. Fid. he declares how the sinceritie of the Churches testimonie in matters of faith is beleeued in the Creed there where we professe to beleeue the holie Catholike Church and amongst other things to this purpose hath these words Before the written Gospell this in the heart of the Church was the Gospell which Iesus Christ wrote and which the Apostles wrote in the harts of men and to whose testimonie euerie one must stand in the controuersies whether the text of the written Gospell be vnderstood or taken by the faithfull or subuerted by the Heretick whereof the Apostle speaks to the Corinthians saying â—ow are our Epistle written in your hearts which is knowne and read of all men declared that you are the Epistle of Christ manifested by vs and written not with inke but by the spicit of the liuing God not in tables of stone but in fleshlie tables of the heart And a litle after Though the law of nature which men beare written in their hearts be most certaine yet much more hath the law of Christ certissimum interpretamentum a most certaine interpretation in the hearts of the faithfull succeeding one another from the beginning of the rising Church and the Apostles times foreuer according to that of the Prophet this is the testament which I will make to them giuing my lawes in their hearts and in their sense or minde I will write them I must not omitt to putt you further in minde that in the place by you cited he saith b Haec ipsa fides Ecclesiae eius authoritas quantum hominum supergreditur rationem tantum fateor diuinâ— legis authoritati succumbit sed tamen quaâ— minoris esse authoritatis fidelibus si eam Ecclesia non praeferret Waâ—d to 3. de Sacramentalibus tit 7. c. 63. Si verum sem per sit testimonium Ecclesiae semper credenda est si quandoqâ—â— fallere consueta in omnibus est suspecta Ibidem the diuine law were vnto the faithfull * Non licet de ipsa dubitare c. vide in Addit of lesse authoritie if the Church did not preferre it And c Hoc est quod superius dixi quantumlibet eminent Scriptura diuina sanctioni Ecclesiae ipsa tamen taxabeâ— se sum eius quo aliter sentire non possis cuius interpraetationi resistere capitalis est culpa dicit Origenes Ibidâ—â— howmuch soeuer the diuinâ— scripture is higher then the decree of â—he Church ipsa tamen sensum eius â—axabit she notwithstanding shall deâ—ne the sense wherein thou maiest not â—old otherwise and whose interpretaâ—â—on to resist is as Origen speakes a â—apitall offence So he AD Concilium vniuersale praecipué pertinet definire qui liber sit canonicus Quam quidem propositionem aequo aniâ—o paterer ab haereticis non admitti sed illud tamen doleo veheâ—enter quod eam nonnulli fideles inficiantur in quibus Thoâ—as Waldensis esse videtur li. 2. doc fid c. 19. Baro. p. 365. ex â—no Addit Baro c. 20. 21. SEcondlie it is obiected that he denies to the Church now â—â—esent power to determine which â—â—e bookes of scripture And for this â—â—e cited three Chapters of his 2. â—â—oke Doct. Fid. the 19. 20. and 21. â—ut there I finde it not He doth inâ—ed hold that the Catholick Churh â—â—d no other is able to d Et hoc est secundum dictuÌ„ gloriosum de Ecclesia quod sc ipsa sola est cuius testimoniuÌ„ est tantae authoritatis praeconij vt ipsos libros diuinarum scripturaruÌ„ taxare decoruÌ„ authoribus certificare possit fideles nec fas erit tanto testimonio contraire wald li. 2. doct fid c. 20. Incertum ergo esse non potest cos esse libros canonicos habere pondus authoritatissuae quibus Ecclesia declarata per omnes gentes ab Apostolis propagata testimoniuÌ„ certum reddit Ibidem Dico quod Ecclesia eam doctrinam docet esse credeÌ„dam sub poena contumaciae Ea dico quae praesens est quae iudicia directa
quâ—d antiquitus abomnibus Ecclesiae Catholicae Sacerdotibus vniuersalis Concilij authoritate decretum Deinde si qua noua c. c. 41. ExeÌ„pluÌ„ adhibuimus SaÌ„cti CoÌ„ciliâ— quod antè trienmum fermè in Asia apud Ephesum celebratum est c. Vniuersis Sacerdotibus qui illò ducenti feré conuenerant c. omnes verò Catholicos sacerdotes fuisse c. c. 42. Wee haue said that in the antiquitie of the Church two things are greatlie and with greate diligence to be obserued quibus wherevnto all those must adhere steedfastlie that will not be hereticks why do you start first of all if any thing should be auncientlie defined with the authoritie of an oecumenicall Councell by all the Priests of the Catholick Church and next if any new question should arise wherein that were not found recourse to be made to the opinions or sentences of holie Fathers those onelie who euerie one in their owne time and place were found to be approued masters continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith and what soeuer they be found to haue held with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple should be iudged the true and Catholike doctrine of the Church Here besides the faith and profession of the Church symbolicall or vniuersall be two other rules wherevnto all that will not be flat heretiks must of necessitie conforme themselues the decrees of oecumenicall Councells and the vniforme consent of Fathers I leaue you now to compare your condition with his opinion What he deliuers in this matter is not his doctrine alone c. 1. That you conceaue him the better he presentlie brings for instance or example the proceedings of the Councell of Ephesus held l c. 42. three yeares no more before he wrote this booke wherein Nestorius was condemned the anathematismes of the Councell you may see when you please It is worth the noting by the way for it is your practise too and indeed of all hereticks that Nestorius as he relates in the end of the chapter renounced the authoritie of the Church in deciding controuersies affirming m c. 43. totam etiam nunc errare semper errasse Ecclesiam that the whole Church euen now in the time of the Councell doth erre and alwaies hath erred In the last chapter of all he brings in the authoritie of the See Apostolike and in fine concludes his booke If neither Apostolicall definitions nor Ecclesiasticall decrees whereby according to the sacred consent of vniuersalitie and antiquitie all Heretikes euer and in fine Pelagius Caelestius Nestorius haue been deseruedlie condemned be to be violated it is necessarie verilie that all Catholikes hereafter which haue a care to shewe themselues lawfull children of the mother-Church be associated and close ioyned vnto the faith of the holie Fathers and so insist that they die in it and that they detest abhorre speake against persecute the prophane nouelties of prophane men §. XIII Exceptions against a text or two refuted THE last Opposition which you make is against two of the places of Scripture which our Deuines bring to confirme the Councels infallibilitie These also least you conceaue there is difficultie I will consider as farre as your Opposition goes though otherwise not meddling with the Question de Iure which you finde in our Deuines discussed at large and then make an end The one of these places containes our Sauiours promise of the Holie Ghosts assistance made vnto the Church The Spirit of Truth when he comes shall teach you all truth Ioan. 14. 16. The other of the places represents vnto vs the interpretation of the forsaid promise as it was vnderstood by the Apostles who relying on it met in Councell and there defined a Controuersie It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghost and to vs. Acts 15. Against the former place you saie first that it is meant of the Apostles onlie This is false for it is foreuer I will aske my father and he will giue you another comforter that he remaine with you for euer the Spirit of truth And apud vos manebit he shall remaine with you Io. 14. the Catholike Church is his mysticall bodie which cannot subsist without his Spirit and for confirmation and illustration of her faith not onelie in the Apostles time when our Sauiour was gone but euer since after they be gonne she needs assistance of the Spirit Neither was it his minde to leaue the faithfull without such comfort non relinquam vos orphanos Ioh. 14. I will not leaue you orphans O father establish confirme sanctifie them in the truth I aske not for them onlie Ioh. 17. the Apostles but for the Church for those which by their word shall beleeue in me That by thy prouidence for my sake in our Spirit all be as it were one and agree to their proportion as wee doe who doe iudge and approue still the same But tell me hath the Spirit left the Church or is he still in it if he hath left it how hath she supernaturall operations how doth she beleeue the diuine word how doth she subsist as the Gospell saith she shall notwithstanding all the endeuours of hell it selfe Mat. 16. If he doth remaine in it it is then true that the promise holds still euen that which was made vnto the Church in the Apostles time and began first to be fulfilled in them The greatest promises in all the Scripture be two one of God the Father to send his sonne to redeeme the world the other of God the Sonne to send the holie Ghost his spirit to teach and instruct his Church if you doe not beleeue the later is performed you will giue vs cause to thinke that you would euacuate the former too and not trust God at all in his promise nor in his couenant neither though so farre you trust one another Ierem. 35. Ezech. 37. I will giue my lawe in their bowels and in their hart I will write it and I will be their God and they shall be my people My Spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth Isa 59. shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord from this present and foreuer See the Disp li. 3. Secondlie you saie that it is not to be vnderstood of all the dogmaticall points or doctrine by our Sauiour reuealed and deliuered vnto the Church but of some points onlie â—hose which are expressed in the Apostles Creed and not necessarilie of all those neither Here againe you doe manifestlie contradict the text of Scripture and open the waie to let errour and heresie into the Church For if the holie Ghost teach no more by the promise of our Sauiour then those fewe points it is impossible for men to knowe the truth touching other reuealed verities though they be necessarie to be knowne
dicens Eccâ—â—go vobiscum sum omnibus diebus Non dixit recum sum sc cum aliqua singulari persona sed vobiscum sum cum toâ—a Ecclesia Catholica Apostolica quae seduci non potest â—ec seducere habet fidele testimonium de Christo noâ—it omnia mysteria Sponsi sui cap. 19. vide etiam suprà pag. 49. certaine testimonie to the truth Wee cannot addresse our selues to the Predestinate for instruction â—or absolution for orders wee know not who they be nor how to finde theÌ„ out They be not the Symbolicall * wickliffs Argument The predestinate do perseuer in the faith Ergo they be the Symbolicall Church Is like this A mans soule is rationall Ergo a mans soule is a man Church they haue not all â—he conditions of it Neither is any â—articular Church or Congregation The Church symbolicall no not a Geâ—erall Councell A Councell is not â—till in being they be celebrated only sometimes whereas the Symbolicall Church is to be still So likewise is the Church diffused or Vniuersall Dan. 2. Matth. 16. Ioan. 14. Ephes 4. And against a Councell or a particular Church he that were disposed to cauill would pretend that faith were not allwaies in it and it therefore at that time no Church for Ecclesia is fidelium congregatio whereas the Church symbolicall is in 〈◊〉 times neuer failing which thing notwithstanding doth agree well vnto the Church vniuersall which is in 〈◊〉 times existent and in faith indeficient Esay 59. Ierem. 31. Ezech. 37. Dan. 1 Matth. 16. 28. Ioan. 14. 16. Tiâ— 1. ep 3. c. Ephes 4. She only hath * The predestinated preciselie haue them not all See the Disp li. 1. c. 5. 6. 7. li. 2 c. 2. 3 li. 3. c. 1. 6. 〈◊〉 the conditions of and indeed is thâ— symbolicall Church This construction of the wordâ— of Waldensis to one that reads thâ— whole discourse in him is plaiâ— and obuious This which hetherto I haue described This I saie thâ— Catholik and Apostolicall Church 〈◊〉 Christ the mother of beleeuing people which hath faith indeficient accordinâ— to the promise of Christ to Peter 〈◊〉 â—hen did beare the figure of the Church I haue asked for thee Peter that thy faith doth not faile is the symbolicall Church Hauing established this tenet he presentlie drawes from it an inference Non est ergo c. that being the vniuersall Church it is not anie particular as the African or the Roman particular Church or Dioces vide Disput pag. 619. ex Innoc 3. These are no more the symbolicall Church then particulars are the vniuersall Neither it is a generall synod such haue erred sometimes one at Ariminum another at Constantinople and some others But it is the Catholik Church of Christ dispersed ouer all the world come downe from the baptisme of our Sauiour by the Apostles and others their successors to thâ—se times which Catholik Church verilie doth containe veram fidem true faith there is one thing required to the Symbolicall Church and that which Wickleff also thought necessarie but that is not all and testimonium Christi fidele the faithfull testimonie of Christ there is an other and the exercise of both followes giuing wisdome to the litle ones amongst extreame errours retaining the truth firme The Deuil by wickleff suggested pestilent inuentions to abbet Rebellion and Schisme Praescitus non habetpotestatem c. Nullus est Dominus ciuilis nullus est Praelatus nullus est Episcopus dum est in peccato mortali Recitantur in Concilio Constant Sess 8. apud Wald. passim See aboue pag. 50. lit r. Here is the sence of his words to the full and for my part I see no more in them But you that can gase vpon chimeraes would persuade vs there are two things for your purpose the one that the Church of Rome may faile or erre and the other that no Generall Councells haue infallibilitie The former of these you ground vpon that part of his inference nec vtique particularis illa Romana neither also is it the particular Roman Church the later vpon those other quam Synodum aliquoties errasse percepimus c. which Synod wee haue vnderstood sometimes to haue erred as that of Ariminum gathered vnder Taurus the Prefect and that Constantinopolitan vnder Iustinian the yonger and some other These two parcels then and his opinion in these two points are next to be considered I take them in order 5. Nec vtique aa Suprà ad lit q. particularis illâ— Romana The forme of speach is negatiue and the author by it denieâ— something of the Roman Church aâ— â—s a particular Church the Queâ—on since you will needs make a â—estion of it is Whether he denies â—o be the Symbolicall Church as it â—eares he doth by what hath â—ne said of this place hetherto or â—ether he denies it perpetuall conâ—ncie in the faith and indefectibiliâ— In answer to which question if â—u turne to the 48. Chapter whose â—e is de praerogatiua perpetuae immuâ—atis Romanae Ecclesiae in fide Christi â—ab omni bb contagione haeresis illibatae Locus ergo vnde fluxit ab exordio sapientia Chriâ—na Romana est Ecclesia Ab hac enim praestatur huâ—nae inertiae dirigendae assistriâ— sapientia sedium diuinaâ—n vt nobiscum sit nobiscum laboret vt sciamus quid â—eptum sit coram Deo omni tempore Walden to 1. li. c. 48. Quomodo erit vna fides quando pro captu suo â—squisque varia meditatur inuenit nisi vno magistro â—ante vnus doceat paedagogus Ille puta quem ad hoc â—cium prae caeteris Christus elegit dum diceret Ego rogaâ—ro te Petre vt non deficiat fides tua Ibidem Et quid miâ— si Christo rogante Romana Ecclesia non potest in fide â—cere non est magnum Haeretice non est magnum vt â—od per se caderet Christo sustentante non possit cadere â—dem Ergo audacter dico in Christi nomine Christo â—ante Romanam Ecclesiam in doctrina Christi esse imâ—cabilem Ibidem Interrogat quis vnde Romanae Eccleâ— tanta authoritas Mihi videtur ex concessione Chriâ— ad confessionem Petri primi Pontificis Primus enim confessor fuit diuinae generationis c. quomodo ergo 〈◊〉 dubijs fidei ad illam de fide consulendam non curritur 〈◊〉 per quam totam Ecclesiam suam Christus fundasse coâ—uincitur Ibidem you shall finde auouched anâ— proued that Ecclesia Romana non pâ—test in fide deficere the Church 〈◊〉 Rome cannot faile in the faith Aâ— further I affirme boldlie in the naâ— of Christ and Christ aiding the Româ— Church that it is in the doctrine 〈◊〉 Christ impeccable The origen of thâ— he refers there to our Sauiouâ— prayer and his graunt and conclâ—ding the Chapter he saith cc Ibidem vide Sixt. Sen. in Cyr. Pits
And the iudge of controuersies the holie Ghost being put â—o silence errour in all other matters of that kinde is remedilesse For example if a man denies the Sacrament of Baptisme this errour were pernicions to the Church and â—hould it preuaile in all as it might â—f the holie Ghost taught nothing but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed both infants and others inmumerable would be ruined thereby for vnles a man be borne againe of water and the holie Ghost Ioh. 3. he shall â—ot enter into the kingdome of heauen The Eucharist is not expressed in the Apostles Creed yet you saie that it is necessarie to receaue it and by the diuine commaund in both kinds The commandements and the interpretation which our Sauiour gaue of them be not expressed there yet the Church hath them and the whole Christian lawe written in her heart by the spirit of the liuing God Our obligations towards superiours of all sorts in conscience and by diuine precept to be performed and the rules of Christian conuersation be not expressed there though the Church may not be ignoraÌ„t of them Pastors and Bishops are necessarie and by God ordained for her direction and the Prophecies be necessarie for confirmation of her faith and therefore she is to knowe both the one and the other though they be not expreslie in the Apostles Creed I speake of that Creed because you name it as also because the certaintie of other Creeds set out in Councells or of the explication made and proposed by the Church is the thing here disputed I acknowledge it as proceeding from the assistance of the holie Ghost to the Church in more then is expressed in the Apostles Creed Hence it is that I beleeue the Nicene or that of S. Aâ—hanasius if you beleeue it too then â—ecall your answer for whilst it stands there is no remedie for errours in these matters and many more nor way of assuraÌ„ce for many things which it is necessarie for the Church to knowe Moreouer it is certaine by the Gospells that our blessed Sauiour â—aught many things to the Church â—oth before his passion and after his â—esurrection which are not expresâ—ed in the Apostles Creede whereunâ—o you think only assistance is exâ—ended Reade the Gospell of S. â—ohn all ouer or of S. Luke or S. Maâ—hewe and you shall finde this to be â—ue And these things also the Spiâ—it according to promise doth suggest I haue yet many things to saie vnâ—o you which you cannot beare nowe â—ut when he the Spirit of truth comes â—e shall teach you all truth for he shall â—ot speake of himselfe Ioh. 16. but what things soeuer be shall heare he shall speake This before his passion and after it for fortie daies he appeared to them speaking of the kingdome of God Act. Apost c. 1. Now that all this whether written or not written otherwise then by the holie Ghost in the minde and heart of the Church is included within the obiect of the promised assistance I proue by no lesse authoritie then of our Sauiour Iesus Christ vpon whose promises all that acknowledge him to be true God Ioh. 14. should relie beleeuing them and him as most faithfull He the Spirit of truth shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all whatsoeuer I shall haue said vnto you It is also necessarie for the Church to knowe the Scripture and the seÌ„â—â— which without assistaÌ„ce of the holie Ghost caÌ„not be done as I could easilie shew were I to treate of that matter Vide Disputat li. 3. c. 4. 5. but forbearing that discourse 〈◊〉 demaund Whether it be necessarie for the Church to knowe that oâ—â— Sauiour did ordaine Baptisme and Eucharist and Order if perchancâ— you thinke the institution of Bishop to be * Acts 20. deuine and how a man may knowe the meaning of those passages of Scripture which doe mention these things or that the texts indeed be Scripture if the holie Ghost doth by promise teach the Church no more then what is expressed in the Apostles Creed I demaund also how you come to be certaine that he doth teach that which in the Creed is expressed or that he doth teach any at all if by the Scripture theÌ„ he teacheth more then is expressed in the Apostles Creede for the Scripture is not expreslie there And my demaund returnes againe with a greater difficultie then before If he teach none but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed how be you certaine that the Gospells be diuine Scripture who taught you that The same Question I will aske and you must answer mark well of euerie Chaâ—ter and of the meaning of euerie verse which you pretend to be against any part of our whole doctrine or to make for any peece of your Religion Thirdlie some perchance will obiect that though he teach the Church all the dogmaticall points or heauenlie doctrine which our Sauiour taught and commended yet this is not verified of the Bishops and Pastors but onlie of the symbolicall or vniuersall Church which may retaine it though the Bishops and Pastors all should erre You knowe out of the begining of this Relection where this euasion is insinuated and being beaten from your owne hereticall tenet of the whole Church erring you seeme to make an offer in the end to repose heere But none that beleeues the Scripture can rest in it First because our Sauiours words are directed to the Apostles and their Successors who were to teach and needed assistance in it Ioann 14. he shall teach you And so they did vnderstand it as appeares by their decree whereof I am to speake afterwards Secondlie the symbolicall or vniuersall Church doth include Pastors and people and the people are to learne of the Pastors whose office is to teach how shall they beleeue vnles they heare and how shall they heare with out a preacher Rom. 10. Teach all Nations was said Matth. vlt. not to the people but to the Pastors Ioann vlt. and S. Peter and his successors in him were bid to feede the flock of Christ wherefore it was requisite the Pastors on whom the people and among them the predestinate depend for instruction should be assisted in their teaching especiallie then when they speake all the same Thirdlie our Sauiour ordained Pastors and Doctors in the Church Ephes 4. to the end that wee be not wauering and borne about with euerie winde of doctrine in the circumuention of errour and if this meanes which is established till the worlds end be fit for this purpose as no Christian can thinke otherwise of our Sauiours prouidence whom he beleeues to be God it is assisted so that it neuer errs in the doctrine of the faith which it deliuers to the world with obligation to beleeue it Fourthlie if euer wee are to beleeue that Christ speaketh and resolueth doubts by the Pastors of the Church according to that He which heareth you heareth me Luc. 10.
he which contemneth you coÌ„temneth me wee must beleeue that when all deliuer one and the same thing as Gods word or meaning vnto the world then without all doubt our Sauiour speakes by them and he who heares or contemnes them doth heare or contemne Iesus Christ whose ministers and Embassadors they be 2. Corint 5. Neither doe you satisfie this argument by saying that you will heare them if they speake according to the word of God Disput li. 3. c. 1. 2. for therein you challenge vnto your selfe without warrant that which you denie to the whole clergie who in the Apostles were bid teach and had the promise of assistance and in the Question Whether they or you haue the true sence of Gods word as of this This is my body you most arrogantlie doe make your selfe the iudge Your selfe I say without the Spirit denying in the meane time and impugning the power of iudging in this case in and to them which haue and shewe the promise of the Spirit Vt Diodorum ac Theod. non expellereÌ„t PP aut inuenerunt eos iam mutasse sententiam aut quod extremum est admonitos mutate fecerunt Nam aliter coâ— in Ecclesia Catholica manere potuisse quis sapiens Catholicus credat Cum verò tanta quae dicta sunt ego indoctus Latinae linguae de causa apud Graecos habita post centum annos pro meo captu facultate vel intelligere vel explicare potuerim quanta credendum est illam Sanctorum Patrum Congregationem in causa penes se recenti memoria cognoscere potuisse illo etiam reuelante qui dixit Vbi sunt duo vel tres congregati in nomine meo ibi in medio eorum sum Nam fideliter inuocatus non solum à Sacerdotibus sed ab omni quoque populo suo cuius fides expectatio ex illorum Authoritate dependet dat omnibus congregatis vnum cor animam vnam vt nullus eorum suam velit esse sententiam nisi quae fuerit veritatis Quoâ—ies ibi doctiores indoctioribus plures paucioribus illo eorum medio cedunt Qâ—oties etiam per nescientes scienter operatur ipse qui potest omnia facere supra quam petimus aut intelligimus qui promisit quòd nobiscum sit omnibus diâ—bus vsque ad consummationem saeculi Vtinam sibi nunquam saecularis potestas quod ei creditum non est in his negotijs vsurparet quae nunquam faeliciter vsurpauit Caeterùm congregatis in suo nomine Christus deesse non potest quia cùm sit omnipotens Veritas mentiri nullatenus potest Facund Episc Defens Chalced. Concilij li 8. c. 7. Et in eandem sententiam plura li. 12. c. 2. inter alia verò de sancto Leone dicit Neque vlterius retractare neque discutere se posse professus est ea quae semel fuerant Chalcedonensi definita Concilio velut quae nosset non tam humano quà m diuino Spiritu constituta This Father as also S. Aug. when they saie God reueales vnto the Councell vse the word something largelie in the sence imported in the promise of Assistance docebit vos suggeret vobis See the Disput pag 404. See the Disput l. 3. c. 6. Fourthly he that seeth the truth of this and would yet flie Councells will imagine perchance that although the Pastors all dispersed when they consent haue the warrant of the Spirit yet not when they be gathered in a Councell But this imaginatioÌ„ argues a weaknes in coÌ„ceauing the termes which are spoken of for in this congregation or Councell there is the whole teaching-power which teaching power as hath been shewed hath and by promise diuine assistance and is to establish the rest predestinate and all in faith and true beleefe Fiftlie you will saie that in generall Councells all the Pastors or Bishops be not present if they were you would beleeue what they propose because the whole exteriour teaching-authoritie is there obliging and they shewe their warrant Luc. â—0 he that heareth you heareth me Would your fellowes doe this there were but one thing more to be disputed in this matter that is Whether it be necessarie to the generalitie of a CouÌ„cell that all the Pastors and Bishops without exception be actuallie present in it the resolution of which Question wee haue in the practice of the Apostles and of the primitiue Church so that no further difficultie can be pretended if the truth be reallie our desire and hereticall obstinacie put aside See the Disput li. 4. c. 7. 8. Against the later place which brings with it the Apostles interpretation of the promise registred in the former it is said first that although that Councell had the assistance of the holie Ghost in making of their decree so that it was his also as their words import yet others after haue it not it was you think a priuiledge in them and lasted no longer in the Church but wilst they liued This euasion is precluded both by the words and the circumstances of the graunt it was made vnto the Apostles as Pastors for establishing of the Church dedit Pastores Ephes 4. vt iam non simus paruuli fluctuantes circumferamur c. which Church needed it not onelie in the Apostles time but afterwards The Arian Sabellian Nestorian and other Heresies as other difficulties whereof some were about the most fundamentall points in the verie Creed did arise and the diuel hath not yet donne suggesting heresie and oppugning the doctrine which our Sauiour left vnto the Church and thereby impugning Him and Her wherefore still it is necessarie And accordinglie the promise was absolute without limitation of yeeres or ages Yea the text it selfe hath in aeternum Ioann 14. Ephes 4. for euer and donec occurramus omnes vntill wee meete all Secondlie it is said that vnto Pastors so assembled the holie Ghost by vertue of the promise is present assisting to fundamentall points but no further Before you would haue detracted from the graunt and wiped out of it the latitude of time now you limit it for the matter If a Lawier should vse your lease so you would exclaime that he did corrupt it WheÌ„ our Sauiour had prayed to his Father that he would establish or Sanctifie his Apostles and those who by their meanes were to beleeue in him that is his Church in the truth he did presentlie vnfould what he meant by that truth and said sermo tuus est veritas thy word the word of God is the truth and in this which comprehends not the Apostles Creed onlie he would haue theÌ„ established This sanctification is according to S. Cyrill a participation of the holy Ghost ad intelligendas rectè Scripturas Ecclesiae dogmata Cyrill Alex. in Ioan. li. 11. cap. 25. to vnderstand the Scriptures well and the doctrine of the Church In a like fullnes doth our Sauiour himselfe expresse the latitude of
this assistance the shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you Ioann 14. So did the Apostle vnderstand it also in saying that Pastors are giuen to the end wee doe not wauer Ephes 4. nor be borne about with euery winde of doctrine Such a giddines happens in other things also besides fundamentalls The Church likewise beleeues the graunt to be thus vniuersall to all our Sauiours doctrine as appeareth by the matters which she defineth in generall Councels as in that of Trent And so much you will acknowledg of the primitiue Church if you reflect vpon that which hath beene said out of S. Augustine in the Donatists case about Baptisme which controuersie not being expressed in the Apostles Creed was in a Councell defined and in vertue of this assistance by the whole Christian world Neither doe you finde the difficultie which was resolued by the Apostles in their Councell put into the Creede Thirdlie you saie that out of a generall assistance such as God giues euerie man towards euerie good worke infallibilitie cannot be inferd and more you will not graunt But our Sauiour graunted more he promised the holie Ghost should teach the Church all truth Ioh. 14. 16. and his lessons must not be doubted of he cannot misse the truth or teach a lie The sence which he doth inspire teach affirme is certaine and the falsitie of any one thing were it possible he should teach a falsitie would infinitelie preiudice his authoritie in the estimation of his creatures yea the whole Scripture would be questioned if this ground were not firme â— Petr. 1. if that were not certaine which men inspired by the holie Ghost and affirming as from him or he in them might be false Fourthlie you saie that if the Councell follow Scripture it hath assistance and is infallible but not els This supposeth that the Church without assistance can vnderstand the Scripture or teach and define matter of faith whereas our Sauiour in the Scripture saith Ioann 15. without him wee can doe nothing and therefore he hath promised assistance that wee may knowe his will and our dutie and left the holie Ghost in the Church to teach her all truth The Iewes and Pagans and heretikes looke on Scripture but they doe not vnderstand it The Church hath a Master the Holie Ghost left to teach her and by his helpe doth vnderstaÌ„d What need a Schoolemaster if your child doth by himselfe vnderstand his booke or will you call it instruction if he neuer tell him any thing but what the child himselfe knowes before you knowe moreouer that when the Controuersie is about the Scripture the written word or about the Apostles Creed or generall tradition assistance is necessarie and also for the sence of Scripture more then is by your definition fundamentall To omitt that in your answer you allowe the Church no greater securitie from errour by the promised assistance then you graunt to be in pagans and heretikes without it for they dot not erre if they followe Scripture and iudge as it is there So little is the discretion of this answer and so small a benefit or rather no benefit you coÌ„ceaue to be bestowed in that faire promise Whereas wee beleeue our Sauiour to be God who neither mocks his Church nor breakes his word he can and will make and bringe to passe Ezech. 36. that she walke in his precepts He writes his lawes in her heart Ierem. 31. what hinders him and keepes his words Isa 59. in her mouth He hath opened a Schoole and put a Master in the chaire Docebit saith he he shall teach and if the lessoÌ„ be forgot suggeret Ioan. 14. he shall bringe it to minde againe he is not to staie till men finde it of them selues he is Master and shall teach it Fiftlie you saie that you are content exteriour obedience be giuen to generall Councells but no more Yet more must be giuen to the holie Ghost and in Councells He defineth Visum est Spiritui Sancto nobis Act. 15. were the words of the Councell it seemeth good to the holie ghost and to vs not to vs onlie but to him in himselfe and in vs heere assembled with his assistance promised in cases of this nature and wee are certaine that he who promised will performe to decide a controuersie our act is his act 2 Cor. 13. to Him it hath seemed good In S. Paul Christ spake the Apostles words 1. Thess 1. were acknowledged to be and were indeed the words of God Luc 10. the holie Ghost speakes in the Church the definition is his you must beleeue it and Matt. 18. remotis dubitationibus to vse S. Augustines words S. Aug. suprà there is no more doubt to be made of it In the conclusion of your discourse you repeate againe what you said in the beginning Alij fatentur opus esse iudice loquenteâ—eâ— homine Volunt tameÌ„ posse ab eo prouocari in foro in â—erno sea conscientiae Siâ— Wittakerus c. Sed hoc facilè refellitur tum quia in hac materia gratis confingitur haec distinctio fori tum etiam quia pax Ecclesiae sita est potissimum in foro interno scilicet in fide ergo non licet in eo foro prouocare à Iudice Ecclesiae alioquin nunquam pax esset conscientiae tum praeterea quia praxis Ecclesiae in Concilio Apostolorum aliorum generalium Conciliorum planè declarat quod Iudex Ecclesiae habeat potestatem dirimendi lites in foro conscientiae tum demum quia si quis teneretur obedire iudicio Ecclesiae in foro externo non in interno teneretur aliquando silentio sepelire veritatem Dei eamque non confiteri coram hominibus nempe si Ecclesia sententiam ferret contra Dei veritatem Accedit quod potestas Ecclesiae est spiritualis in animas ipsas ergo potestas illius iudicandi se extendit etiam ad forum internum Reuerendiss Chalc. in Collat. li. 2. c. 28. that wee beleeuing the Councels to be directed in their Decrees by the Holie Ghost in vertue of our Sauiours promise made vnto the Church attribute more to them then Antiquitie hath donne The vanitie of which your pretence sufficientlie appeares by that which hath beene answered to your exceptions in particular You finde none that denies what wee beleeue Yea those whom you produce to speake against vs affirme it constantlie And who more Auncient in the ranck of Christians then the Apostles themselues whose testimonie you haue heard in our behalf You haue beene told also that in Sainct Augustines daies the Catholikes vniuersallie and amongst them the greatest schollers submitted their iudgments to the iudgment of the Church in Councell and this too though the point so determined were neither fundamentall nor found in Scripture You shall finde also as hath beene likewise insinuated
by occasion of your discourse in the Councell of Chalcedon six hundred Fathers together acknowledging diuine assistance to the Nicene so farre that the Decrees they said could not be retracted without 1 Si ergo Spiritus SaÌ„ctus coÌ„sedit Patribus vt manifeste consedit ordinauit que ordinata sunt qui retractat ea Spiritus Sancti cassat gratiam SaÌ„cta Synodus dixit Omnes haec dicimus Anathema qui retractat Conc. Chalced. Acti 1. making void the grace of the Holie Ghost And others accordinglie saie they were 2 S. Leo Epist 53. 54. vide etiam S. Aug. li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. diuinelie ordained 3 Si quis fidem illam à saÌ„cta magna Synodo optimè diuino afflatu definitaÌ„ ac expositam dicere voluerit basim animarum nostraruÌ„ fundamentum que inconcussum munitum is vtique probatissime loquitur Lib. 1. de Trinit apud Cyrill Alexand Suis auteÌ„ verbis à nobis scribatur diuinuÌ„ sanctissimum Synodi illius Oraculum IbideÌ„ Vide S. Ambros li. 1. de Fide ad Gratian. oracles of faith It sufficeth to make instance in that one being the first oecumenicall that was celebrated after the Apostles daies to shewe that it stopped not in them but was continued after their the Apostles time vnto the Church And in like manner it was affoorded afterwards to the second and the third and fourth the decrees of which 4 li. 1 Regest Epist 24. Quintum quoque Concilium pariter veâ—eror Ibidem S. Gregorie our Apostle did honour as the Gospels and so also to the rest by vertue of one and the same Promise made absolutelie to the Church Vpon which promise that also of the Apostles did relie as before hath been obserued Moreouer the Fathers held that the definitioÌ„s of oecumenicall CouÌ„cells might not be called into a Conc. Chalc. acti 1. anathema â—â—qui reâ—ractat De rebus apud NicaeaÌ„ apud Chalcedonam definitis nulluÌ„ audemus inire tractatum tanquaÌ„ dubia vel infirma sint quae tanta per Spiritum sanctuÌ„ fixit authoritas S. Leo epist. 78. vbi plura in eandem sententiam doubt that they were rather to loose their b S. Ambros epist 32. S. Hier. contra Luciferian liues then to denie them that those who did oppugne them were c Nullo modo fieri potest vt qâ—i diuinis aâ—dent contradicere sacramentis aliqua nobis communioâ—e socientur S. Epist 78. Patâ—facieÌ„tes in omnibus probantes non esse omnino inter Catholicos computandos qui definitiones venerabilis Synodi Nicenae vel sancti ChalcedoneÌ„sis Concilij regulas noÌ„ sequuntur Ibidem not Catholikes but d S. August de Haeres nu 69. S. Basil epist. 78. S. Athanas epist ad Epict. Vincent Lyri c. 41. heretikes And the Councels themselues did e Conc Nice Ephesin c. anathematize all that reiected or dissented from them Now by these anathematismes and excommunications by the deepe censure and branding with the note of Heresie by the deniall of the name of Catholike to such as did stubbornelie contradict oecumenicall definitions by the knowne custome of the Pastors in all ages and cases of greatest difficultie when soeuer they could with safetie meete in Councell to define sub anathemate and to oblige all to conformitie without further dispute or doubt they being the men whom our Sauiour hath giuen to teach his people and establish theÌ„ in the truth by the generall obedience of the Symbolicall or vniuersall Church in all times to the Pastors so teaching manifested in their acceptation of such Decrees and conformable profession of the faith by the esteeme which holie Fathers had of Councells whereof in Saint Augustine I gaue an instance in the case of S. Cyprian and by the Apostles practice in regard and contemplation of the promise together with their reall interpretation of it the meaning of those words The Spirit of truth shall teach you all truth and He gaue Pastors and Doctors that wee be not wauering or borne about with euerie winde of doctrine is so discouered and the tradition of assistance and direction afforded to Councels oecumenicall in their decrees of faith so confirmed that a weaker sight then yours may discerne it You may further call to minde that the Councels wherein the Controuersies betwixt the Protestants and vs are defined be receaued by the whole Church and by it vniuersallie approued Wherefore had any of those you name told you that an oecumenicall Councell might mistake and erre the decrees of faith made in these Councels as in that of Trent for example had still beene according to their iudgment notwithstanding to be admitted because the Vniuersall Church hath receaued and approued them And you opposing them do oppose not a Councell onlie but the Catholike and Vniuersall Church and the Spirit in her the Spirit of truth remaining in and with her to teach her all truth That this is the Catholike Church and not yours nor the whole companie of such as professe themselues Christians as it includes both the Orthodox and Hereticks you see proued and defended f Disp of the Church elswere If your Spirit be disposed to contradict it bring your Catalogue of men that held your Articles all men purelie Orthodox according to the new straine without any defect or superstruction whose tenents intirelie be * The Vniuersalitie of the Church and the long Communion of the Graecians and other Nations with it is demonstrated at large by C. Baronius in his Annals and briefelie in the Disputation of the Church pag. 145. 146. 147. 148. By the Church thus Vniuersall in her flourishing time the Nestorian and Eutychean Heresies which made against the fundamentall articles of Christianitie and the coÌ„mon Creede were you know coÌ„demned and such as abbetted theÌ„ were cut of froÌ„ CoÌ„munion lawfullie and oecumenicallie in the Councels of Ephesus and Chalcedon Wherefore in the Catalogue which you are to make do not put vnder the titles of Orthodox or Members of the Catholike Communion any Nations or People howeuer great approuing and maintaining either of these Errours Such as were the Nestorians Armenians Iacobites Abassins and Aegyptians or Cophti as appeares by Photius Damascen Euthymius Nicephorus Prateolus Guido Baronius Miraeus Godignus and others Neither can you challeng them as yours when they were re-vnited to the Church and See of Rome as the Grecians Armenians and others were in the Councell of Florence Acta Conc. Flor. in Decreto Eugen. Aemilius Platina Chalcondas Gordonus See also Miraus Not. Episc li. 1. c. 18. but you must finde a time when they neither held with vs nor abbetted either of the foresaid Heresies but were entirelie Protestant or Orthodox in your sence And the Catalogue must represent vnto vs in all Ages some of these so many as may challeng from all other Communities the title of the Catholike and Vniuersall Church If you looke vpon the whole aggregation of Christian Churches that euer were in the world before Luther you shall finde the Societie of beleeuers in Communion with the See of Rome to be without all Controuersie the greatest and most Vniuersall And that Arians Nestorians Iacobites Armenians and others going out of it to subsist by themselues neuer could arriue any of them to that Vniuersalitie Where you will finde or feigne your ProtestaÌ„t more Vniuersall Congregation or of what kind of men or what fantoms rather it doth consist wee shall know when your descriptioÌ„ of the Spaces Imaginarie comes out in print What is to be obserued in the drawing of your Catalogue hath beene partlie told you in the Disp lib. 1. c. 1. 2. 3. 4. currant there and iustified by you their children and this continuallie euer since the Apostles daies with Pastors lawfullie ordained Proue that yours was and that ours was not the Church which hath celebrated Councels condemned Heresies conuerted Nations c. Meane while and euer for this taske will be neuer donne wee do securelie subscribe to the Decrees of Councels oecumenicall approued and receaued generallie by that CoÌ„munitie out of which your Father Luther went and do not doubt at all to imbosome our selues in that Church which by SuccessioÌ„s of Bishops froÌ„ the See Apostolike hath euen to the acknowledgment and confession of mankind obtained the top of Authoritie Hereticks in vaine barking round about and condemned partlie by the iudgment of the very multitude or common people partlie by the grauitie of Councels and partlie by the maiestie of miracles To which Church not to giue the prize it is verilie either extreame impietie or foole-hardie presumption
works openly denied infallibilitie to the decrees of approued generall Councels Much lesse can the passage alleaged serue your turne if the word Christians be not heere taken so strictly as your inference doth suppose but so farre extended that heretickes come vnder the name too for then it may be true that some Christians doe seeme to thinke so and yeâ— no Catholikes thinke so there being other Christians in the world beside Catholikes euen in his opinion that said and was it not the same b Quaeso vt mihi reueles an aliqui sentiant quod tota multitudo Christianorum valeat haeretica prauitate foedari Mag. Iudaei Sarraceni etiam Pagani firmissimè tenent fidem ChristianaÌ„ esse erroneaÌ„ Disc Non intendo quaerere de illis sed de Christianis sub Christianis etiam Haereticos comprehendendo Mag. Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teueat Ockam dialog par 1. li. 5 c. 35. Ockam thinke you that vnder the name of Christians he did also comprehend heretikes who desired also in this Dialogue to heare the contrarie Opinions of whomsoeuer Catholikes or Heretikes yea and sometimes others â—hat no c Nolo vt quod tenes in mente reueles sed respoÌ„siones aliquas quae cogitari vel teneri potuerint à quocumque non differas recitate c. sententias contrarias quorumcumque Catholicorum Haereticorum interdum alia quae à nullo Christiano tenentur licet possint habere Catholicos Haereticos defendentes te desidero recitare sic enim multiplicius efficacius exercitabimus studiorum ingenia Idem c. 34. Christians hold This for your argument of omnes and quidam Christiani some Christians and all Christians VNa sola est Ecclesia militans quae contra fidem errare non potest quia de sola vniuersali militante inuenitur in Scripturis authenticis quod errare non potest Concilium autem generale licet sit pars Ecclesiae militantis vniuersalis tamen non est Ecclesia vniuersalis Igitur temerarium est dicere quod Concilium generale contra fidem errare non potest Baro. p. 361. ex Ockam dial 2. THe next thing obiected is an argument of those some Christians whereby they imagined that perhaps the thing which they did seeme to thinke might be proued The vniuersall diffused Church onlie iâ— vnerrable but a generall Councell iâ— not the vniuersall diffused Church Ergo. In which argument the proposition or is Maior false as our Deuines doe proue by playne testimonieâ— of scripture and our aduersaries 〈◊〉 necessitie must acknowledg aâ— much vnles they will oppose them selues to the Apostles and Father and Pastors of the Church all together For if onely the Symbolicaâ— or vniuersall Church diffuse through all Nations and times hatâ— the priuiledge of not erring in matter of diuine Faith it followes thaâ— the Pastors and Fathers and Apostles all consenting are not to bâ— relied on as a proponent infallible since these be not the whole 〈◊〉 they neuer so glorious a part of the Church vniuersall Howbeit tâ— Question here is not of that argument or proposition but whetheâ— Ockam doth denie the infallibilitie of approued generall Councells or whether he doth name or giue other sufficient notice of any Catholike that denied it He names here none â—t all neither doth he say that they were Catholikes who seemed to thinke c. and least any should suspect him he professeth in the person of the other Dialogist to be of the d Quamuiâ— firmissimè puteÌ„ quod Concilium Generale haereticari non potest tamen rationes pro assertione contraria libenti animo auscultabo Mag. Quod Concilium generale possit errare contra fidem rationibus exemplis videtur posse probari Prima autem ratio talis est Vna est sola vniuersalis Ecclesia c. vt pag. 5. Ockam li. 5. c. 25. argumenti verò solutionem apud ipsum innenies cap 9. habetur inferius ad lit h. §. ad vndecimam minde that a generall Councell cannot â—rre in faith The like proceeding you may obserue in him els-where as in the last Chapter of this booke where he bringes reasons and leaues them without answer too to proue that the whole multitude of Christians hauing vse of reason pastors and people men and women may erre against the faith and that it is temeâ—arious to say they will neuer doe so though he there confesse this which â—e goeth about to proue to (e) Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teneat Disc Licet nescias Christianum aliquem hoc tenere tamen pro hoc al quas rationes excogitare nitaris Mag. Ad quaestionem falsam nulla ratio nisi sophistica potest adduci Disc Concedo quod pro assertione praedicta nulla valet ratio nisi sophistica allegari tamen saepè rationes apparentes difficiles ad soluendum pro falsis inducuntur Vnde qualescunque inuenire coneris Mag. Quod tota multitudo Christianorum vsum rationis habentium possit contra fidem errare tali ratione probatur c. Ockam li. 5. c 35. Ergo temerarium est asserere quod nunquam tota multitudo Christianorum vsum rationis habentium contra fidem errabit Ibidem in fine be â—â—lse as it is indeed and manifestly against the Scripture Daniel 7. I say 49. Mat. 18. Io. 14. Ephes 4. Apoc. 20. and that he knewe no Christian at all he liued before the Protestant Religion that held it ESt quaedam opinio quae viam eligens mediam praedictis omnibus in aliquo aduersatur tenens quod Scripturae diuinâ— contentae in Biblia eiusdem sacrae Scripturae scriptoribus Vniuersall Ecclesiae atque Apostolis absque vlla dubitatione in omnibus est credendum Nullis verò alijs quantacunque doctrina vel sanctitate praepolleant est in omnibus absque omni exceptione fides necessariò adhibenda Ita quod nec in Concilio Cenerali si esset congregata vniuersalis Ecclesia noâ— decretis aut decretalibus vel assertionibus summorum Pontificum nec Doctorum dictis siue fuerint ab Ecclesia approbati siue non fuerint approbati est necessariò credulitas in omni dicto casu absque omni exceptione praestanda Licet in multis negari non debeant quoad multa Christiani ipsis credere teneantur Baro p. 361. ex Ockami dial 3. par tract 1. li. 3. c. 4. 3. THe third thing obiected is that he mentions an Opinion holding amongst many other things that credit is not to be giuen to a generall Councell in euery thing it saies and in euery case without exception Were this his owne tenet our cause were not hurt for wee do not maintaine in Councells of the Church approued much lesse in all Councels that are stiled generall such an vnlimited and vniuersall infallibilitie as these words import in omni dicto casu absque omni exceptione in all they say and in all cases without exception neither indeed
decreuit à temporibus Apostolorum vsque ad praesens vel vsque in praesens per successiones Patrum id ipsum sapieÌ„tium atque docentium ei inquam credi debet sub poena perfidiae tom 1. doctrina 2. certifie â—hich bookes are scripture and that â—â—e can commend none in this naâ—â—re but such as were written in â—â—e Apostles e Ipsis patriincumbebat qui tunc praesidebaÌ„t Ecclesijs ducere scripturaruÌ„ volumina ad perfectum tunc enim fuit temporis plenitudo non dubium libri non reciperentur in authoritateÌ„ sacri canonis nisi qui de illis teÌ„poribus Apostolicis agereÌ„t tunc temporis essent quia aliter non facerent de diuinis rebus fidem summam Idem li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà daies but this is â—t to denie the present Church or Councell power to propose againe the same There were notwithstanding the Apostles approbation of diuers parts of the new testameÌ„t which approbation came not at least so manifestlie to the notice of all some who doubted of f Vide Disp pa. 431 or denied them as for example the Apocalyps and S. Iudes Epistle and the later oâ— S. Peter yet you your selues doe and Waldensis did receaue them aâ— the hands of the Church by thaâ— part which then liued when he did Neither doth Canus saie that hâ— denied a Councell power to propose bookes in the manner wee noâ— speake of but he saies onelie thaâ— he seemes to be of those who denie thâ— power to define which booke is Canonicall to belonge chieflie to a generâ— Councell It is one thing to saie thâ— a Councell can doe it another tâ— saie the power belongs chieflie 〈◊〉 the Councell as you will perceaâ— by the declaration of the next placâ— obiected Waldensis as Canus worâ— import seemed to denie not the foâ—mer but the later neither doth 〈◊〉 saie that he denied it but that 〈◊〉 did seeme to doe so some things thâ— â—hilosophers vse to saie do seeme 〈◊〉 be and are not and some thing â—emes to one otherwise many tiâ—es then to an other Had it been so â—deed I make no question but that â—ou who haue been diligent in your â—inde to seeke in him what might â—e brought against vs would not â—aue omitted to relate the words When you seeke for them next â—ou will finde in him first as I said â—efore that in his exclusiue he speaâ—es of bookes not written in the Aâ—ostles time or before to which purâ—ose he g Waldens li. 2. fid doc c. 20. brings the place of scriâ—ture Dominus narrabit in scripturis â—opulorum principum horum qui â—uerunt in ea with S. Ieroms Comment on it wherein are these words vt exceptis Apostolis quodcunque aliud â—osteà dicitur abscindatur non habeat â—osteà authoritatem And to the same â—enour he himselfe a litle after let vs â—ote the differences of Scripture because the scripture or writing onlie of â—he Princes that is of the Apostles hath after our lord the crowne of authoritie I meane of canonicall authoritie for the saying of the Saincts which followed them haue their authoritie bâ— not canonicall Secondlie whereas 〈◊〉 might be obiected that the Churcâ— in a generall Councell might wriâ— a booke and put it into the canon 〈◊〉 scripture to be among other bookâ— of holie writt since S. Gregorie thâ— great doth professe to honour theâ— as the Gospels in those words h S. Greg. mag li. 1. Regesti epist 24. citatur in Decret d. 15 Quintum quoque Concilium pariter venerot Ibidem Sicut Sancti Euangelij quatuor libros 〈◊〉 quatuor concilia suscipere veneraâ—me fateor Waldensis there answere to this argument and expounds thâ— words of S. Gregorie Thirdlie because it might againe be obiecteâ— out of the decrees whence the former obiection was taken that i Gelasius c. Sancta Romana d. 15. Nec obstat Pelagiana epistola de librâ—s recipiendis non recipâ—eÌ„dâ—s vbi scripturaruÌ„ libros in authoritate pleâ—â—râ—a quomodo sint habendi denunciat noÌ„ ad authoritatem per seipsum in instaurat walden vbi supra Pelagius the Pope seemes to determine what bookes are to be receaued into the canon and what not he answers with a distinction which doth explaine his minde and dotâ— suffice to stopp your mouth wheâ— occasion require Scripturarum libâ— saith he in authoritate plenaria quâ— modo sunt habendi denunciat non 〈◊〉 authoritatem per scipsum instaurâ— That is in briefe he doth not giue but declare their sacred and diuinâ— â—thoritie And the same the Church 〈◊〉 all times might and may doe â—hensoeuer there shall be cause â—hey were by the holy Ghost inâ—red and written by the Apostles â—d Princes of the Church qui fueâ—t in ea and were approued by them 〈◊〉 but it hath beene since necessaâ— to declare some of them to giue â—timonie that they be diuine and â—s testimonie the Church still can â—e Neither is our Sauiour offenâ—d with her testimonie giuen to 〈◊〉 word who was pleased that she â—ould giue testimonie of himâ—fe Of which matter this author â—th much in the former Chapters â—eciallie the eighteenth Fourthlie 〈◊〉 doth esteeme the iudgment of 〈◊〉 Pope and of a perfect Councell â—e infallible as you will heare beâ—e wee leaue him and therefore â—ch more is he to be esteemed to â—eld this honour to the whole wheâ— they be All which being conâ—ered that which you did vrge out 〈◊〉 Canus so appeares that it is but a â—ere videtur without an est vnâ— it HAec est sola machinae Christiana quae cunctas haereses mel aboleuit ipsa sc professio concors sanctorum Patrâ— secundum suorum temporum interualla reddentium testiâ—nium Christi verbis consuetudini primitiue Baro p. 3â— ex wald to 3. de Sacramentalibus doct 3. 3. THirdlie it is inferred that 〈◊〉 takes infallibilitie froÌ„ Couâ—cells and from the present Churcâ— because he saith that the vnanimâ— profession of the holie Fathers giuâ— testimonie according to the distanceâ— their times to the * Latiùs patet verbum quà m scriptura words of Christ 〈◊〉 the primitiue custome is the oâ—â— Christian engine which hath once â—â—lished all Heresies Wherevnto I aâ—swere first that he speakes withâ— exclusion of the Church presentâ— each heresie for it is well knowâ— that the Church which did aboâ—â— Arianisme and Nestorianisme 〈◊〉 the rest of the heresies before 〈◊〉 times was that Church whâ— knewe of them and that she diâ— by her Pastors and for the most pâ— in Councells though not without 〈◊〉 censent of that part of the Chuâ—â—â— and those her Pastors which liâ—â— in the precedent ages which o◠〈◊〉 or agreeable profession was â—nd partlie by their bookes as in 〈◊〉 acts of the Councells appeares â—his daie and partlie by the tradiâ— of the particular Churches wheâ— they had liued and died Which â—â—nner the Church doth still obserâ— in condemning heresies as they
manâ—d and the parts such as be reâ—rsed are ill putt together so that 〈◊〉 intent and meaning cannot be â—ceaued as the learned reader â—y obserue by looking on his â—rds related in the p addition q Etsi lex naturae certissima est quam geâ—t homines scriptam in cordibus suis vt refert Apost â— 1. multo magis lex Christi habet certissimum interâ—amentum suum in cordibus fidelium succedentium sibi 〈◊〉 ab initio nascentis Ecclesiae temporibus Apostolorum vsâ—in sempiternum secundum quod per Prophetam dicit â—minus hoc testamentum quod testabor ad illos dando leges â—s in cordibus eorum in sensibus eorum scribam eas Quod â—onens Ambrosius ô verè inquit testator aeternus qui â—ris in cordibus leges affigit suas scribit in sensibus â—ihil aliud cogitare nisi diuina praecepta possimus 〈◊〉 aliud sentire nisi Dei oracula debeamus Walden li. â— 8 and continuing his discourse Haec est saies he Eccleâ—â—ymbolica Ecclesia Christi inquam Catholica Apostoâ—â—mater credentium populorum quae fidem habet indefect biâ— â—ecundum promissum Christi ad Petrum qui tunc fiâ—m gessit Ecclesiae Ego rogaui pro te Petre vt non deficiat â—tua Non est ergo specialis Ecclesia non Africana vt â—atus dixit Nec vtique particularis illa Romana sed â—ersalis Ecclesia non quidem in generali synodo conâ—ata quam aliquotiens errasse percepimus velut illa â—ninensis congregata sub Tauro praefecto illa Conâ—inopolitana sub Iustiniano minore tempore Sergij Papae secundum Bedam quaedam aliae sed est Ecclesiaâ— Christi Catholica per totum mundum dispersa à baptismo Christi per Apostolos caeteros successores eorum aâ— haec tempora deuoluta quae vtique veram fidem continet testimonium Christi fidele sapientiam praestaâ— paruulis inter extremos errores stabilem retinens veritatem c. 19. in principio That others also may conceaue the same it is to be obserued that Waldensis is disputing there against Wickleff about the Church which is the Creed wee professe to beleeue and is therefore by him called thâ— Church symbolicall Wickleff considering that the faith of it is to be indeficient it being still true to saie there is such a Church or congregation would haue it to be the r Quod Ecclesia nostra symboliba est Ecclesia Catholica Titulus Cap. 17. li. 2. Mugit acriter wickleffus contra Papam Pastores Ecclesiae sub titulo iustae appâ—lationis Ecclesiae Christi quae est obiectum fidei Christâ—nae de qua articulus est in symbolo Credo Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam Difficultas autem eius est ista Quanâ— credere debemus Ecclesiam Sanctam Catholicam taâ—quam fidem iterum credere debemus quòd quodliâ— membrum istius Ecclesiae sit praedestinatum ad gloriam credere debemus quod iste Papa vel Episcopus sit meâ—brum Ecclesiae credere debemus quod repugnat ipsum peccatum finalis impoenitentiae cadere Haec Wicklef Actor Sub hoc globo verborum vnà cum praesumpto sâ—â— Ecclesia symbolica c. Initium capitis 17. Prima ergo diâ—cultas de quidditate huius Ecclesia symbolicae quam vtiâ— credere debemus c. Ibidem Predestinate onlie who do finallie perseuer in the faith Waldensis ouer and aboue an indeficiencie doth auouch and according to Scripture Matt. vlt. Luc. 10. Ioan. 15. 21. Act. 20. Cor. 1.12 Ephes 4. c. that it is to teach and giue testimonie of the truth in that sort that all may learne of it And therefore it is to be a visible Congregation * Ecclesia est fidelium congregatio It inuolues à Hierarchie Ephes 4 Who told Wickleff that all the beleeuers the predestinated only excepted do fall from the faith before they die or Societie Hierachicallie disposed Whence he determines it to be according to the words of the Creed it self the Catholike or Vniuersall Church that is the wholeranke or companie of the faithfull people successiuelie descending from the first assemblie made by Christ in the bank of Iordan vntill our times and from henceforth vntill the end of the world and reaching into all partes of the world wheresoeuer the shining testimonie of the faith of Christ the head and author is kindled Ibidem In which description by him there proued out of scripture and confirmed by the testimonie of S. Augustine he hath comprehended a two-fold vniuersalitie one loci of place another temporis of time as is more distinctlie there specified in the same chapter by himselfe And the benefit of this vniuersalitie heâ— saith is vt t sciamus discretè quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia veramque habenâ— doctrinam fidei that wee may knowe distinctlie as a communitie so vniuersall is found easilie which is the true Church of Christ and hauing the true doctrine of faith Heresies are limited as he shewes for time and place but the Symbolicall Church is both waies vniuersall And to it when heresies arise u Ad hanc Ecclesiamergo quae per totum muÌ„dum vnam habet doctrinaÌ„ Apostolicam omnes fideles intonante noua haeresi debent habere recursum ipsi enim Apostoli cuÌ„ vna sana doctrina adhuc manente imbuerunt totam Ecclesiam ob hoc tota Ecclesia Catholica etiam Apostolica nominatur Walden c. 18. fideles omnes debeâ— habere recursum all faithfull must haue recourse as he saith in the next Chapter The reason is because she hath x c. 18. vt suprà ad lit q. in her heart the Gospell written by the holie Ghost together with a most certaine interpretation of the Christian lawe and also giues y Addit adhuc Ecclesia symbolica id est quam tenemâ— in dubijs credere sub poenae perfidiae addit enim Ecclesiâ— sic dictae communiter id est communi rationi Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 omnibus Ecclesijs abstracta rationem vnius fidelis induâ—bitantis testimonij hoc ratione qua est vna Sic enim â—credimus vnam sanctam Ecclesiam non quidem gente vel patria sed professione vnam fide de qua fide vnicum â—cunctis gentibus reddit testimonium cap. 18. Nam hoc est credere Ecclesiam Catholicam credere eam habere veram â—fidem de Deo vera Sacramenta Ibidem Ratione ergo qua Ecclesia est obiectum fidei Christianae sic facit testimonium abundanter de Christo cuilibet eam vel secundum eam credenti Ibidem Definita veritas antequam habeatur pro definita plus exigit sc vltra authoritatem Scripturae Spiritus sancti reuelationem fidem in dictis assumentis quod non extorqueat industriam quod per elusionem non seducatur aut non fingat hoc ipsum est quod sponsus ille Ecclesiae sponsae reliquit in dotem
de biblioth wald Cyâ— not without cause extolles the Româ— faith when expounding those wâ— portae inferi non praeualebunt teâ— Peter quoth he it is said the gates 〈◊〉 Hell shall not preuaile against it 〈◊〉 Church according to this promiseâ— our Lord the Apostolicall Church of â—ter remaines cleane from all misleadâ— and hereticall circumuention aboue 〈◊〉 the Prelates and Bishops and aboue Primates of Churches and of Aposâ— in her chiefe Pastors in most abundâ— faith and in the Authoritie of Peâ— and whereas other Churches are compâ—d with errour she alone established â—moueablie doth raigne imposing siâ—ace and stopping the mouthes of all Heâ—tickes and wee by necessitie of saluation not by pride deceaued nor inebriaâ—d with the wine of pride doe acknowledge and professe openlie with her the â—me of truth and Apostolicall tradition Hereby appeares what Walâ—nsis thought of the Church of â—ome and by those words secunâ—m Domini professionem and those â—abilita inquassabiliter he sawe which himselfe had professed dd Non potest in fide deficere vt suprà â—efore that this immunitie and hoâ—our was to continue And by this â—nd much more which you may â—ade in that Chapter where the thing 〈◊〉 professedlie discoursed of I â—aue as manifest that you did mistake him in your first pretenâ—e which was about the Church of Rome Non quidem generali Synodo conâ—egata quam ee SuÌ„prà ad li. q. aliquoties errasse â—rcepimus velut illa Ariminensis â—ngregata sub Tauro praefecto illa â—onstantinopolitana sub Iustiniano miâ—ore tempore Sergij Papae secuudum Bedam quaedam aliae Here againe you will haue the thing disputed what he denies of a synod and what he affirmes He denies that it is the symbolicall Church this is plaine by the coherence of the discourse as I declared before He affirmes of generall Synods that some haue erred as the Constantinopolitan vnder Iustinian the Ariminian vnder Taurus and some others Whence it followes that the Church so assembled is not the symbolicall Church for that neuer erreth Holie diuine faith is in her essence and therefore as her essence or being cannot faile no more can her faith She hath fidem indefectibilem such a faith as by reason of our Sauiours ff Matth. 16. care cannot be deficient and without exception of any time without admitting corruption to the preiudice of her integritie she retaines the truth euer gg Suprà pag. 49. steedfast whereas a Councell or assemblie may be corrupted and want integritie as appeares in those which he speakes of Moreouer there are vnder the name of Generall Councells as appeares by him in this place and elswhere some that are sincere some that are not That of Nice was sincere and was generall that of Constantinople vnder Iustinian was not sincere yet is it here putt in the number of those which he calls generall The infallibilitie of such as are sincere and approued by the successor of S. Peter the Pope wee maintaine the infallibilitie of all that are vnder the name of generall wee doe not Neither doth Waldensis contradict vs in the former part which is of the sincere and approued He saith indeed that some which goe by the name of generall haue erred you may adde if you please that others like them hereafter may But your argument will not hold Some therefore all Some men stagger in their faith men denie God sometimes you are not wise if you vnderstand this of all men or of wise men When Wickleff obiected as you doe hh walden to 1. li. 2. c. 26. Peccauit scimus Ariminense Concilium peccauit Nicenum Thraciae the Ariminian Councell wee know did amisse and so did the Nicene of Thrace The author the same whose authoritie you are medling with answers peccauit vtique magnus exercitus Angelorum c. a great armie verilie of Angells did amisse yea and the holie number of Apostles euen in apostacie after they had receaued the faith before the comming of the holie Ghost the spirit of truth to teach them all truth and yet neither is the companie of other Angels therefore depriued of their felicitie nor the assemblie of the Apostles regularlie without doubt of the principalitie of the Church nor a generall Councell of its authoritie Thus in the 26. Chapter and in the next which is the 27. he deliuers his minde touching the matter whereof wee are disputing in these words Non dubitat Ecclesia sancta Dei toties assistere sibi Spiritum sanctum quoties congregati fuerint authoritate plenario in nomine Christi ad fidei dubium resoluendum The holie Church of God doubteth not that the holie Ghost assistes her as oft as they by full authoritie be assembled in the name of Christ to resolue a doubt of faith This was not onelie certaine with him but it is he saith a thing which the Catholike Church holds as a matter out of question non dubitat she doubts not of it And a litle after Plenarijs Concilijs Ecclesiae si tamen maneant incorrupta Spiritus sanctus adest definit de fide The holie Ghost is present vnto plenarie or generall Councells of the Church if so they continue sincere or perfect and doth define of faith And if this be so then not exteriour onlie as some would shift it of but interiour obedience is due to the decree for such obedience wee owe to the holie Ghost who is present assisting as was before said and as it is further heere expressed doth make the definition definit And consequentlie this Author had reason to saie as he doth in the same Chapter afterwards that it ii Multitudini ergo credentium est potius adhaereduÌ„ quae cum claruerit quod in Christi nomine coÌ„gregetur ab eius decreto vnanimi non nisi cum periculo declinatur c. 27. is daungerous to swarue from such decrees To this purpose in the Chapter whence you dispute he ponders those words of the first Councell assembled in Hierusalem which gaue the forme to all others and taught them how to vnderstand our Sauiours ll Ioh. 14. 16. promise It hath seemed good to the holie Ghost and to vs. mm waeldendens to 1. li. 2. c. 19. marke saith he they said not it seemed good to the holie Ghost and the Church but to the holie Ghost and to vs who heere doe represent the Church and yet not to vs without the holie Ghost but to the holie Ghost in himselfe and to the * when this authoritie comes in the fortè sic and fortè noÌ„ haue no place The Holie Ghost cannot be deceaued What he doth auouch is most certaine Remouentur dubitationes Be mindfull of this note when you come to S. Aug. holie Ghost in vs in the Church who in doubts of faith is neuer wanting to the Church Christ promising to her the holie Ghost shall teach you all truth And therefore what seemeth good to him the same
confirmed or approued Councells 3. It is a sophisticall proceeding to impugne one veritie with another veritie FAteor equidem quodcunque Concilium generale vniuersalem Ecclesiam representare Sed dum vrges Ecclesiam errare non posse verum est in eo sensu qui à fidelibus accipitur Intelligimus enim totam simul Ecclesiam hoc est fideles omnes non errare at nihil obstat cur maior Ecclesia pars non erret Baro p. 381. ex Cano. loc 5. c. 5. CANVS Is pretended to contradict vs though he be knowne to maintaine the Councells infallibilitie such as wee speake of adding withall that the contrarie is hereticall In the fourth Chapter of his fift booke where he treates of that controuersie his third conclusion is a Tertia Conclusio Concilium generale confirmatuÌ„ authoritate Romani Pontificis certam fidem facit Catholicorum dogmatuÌ„ Quam quidem conclusioneÌ„ ita explorataÌ„ habere opus est vt eius coÌ„trariam haereticam esse credamus Canus li. 5. c 4. A generall Councell confirmed by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome doth make certaine the faith of Catholike tenets Which he there proues with many reasons resoluing also the doubts which Heretikes obiect against it 2. Hauing established that authoritie he disputes further whether 〈◊〉 Councell not confirmed by the Pope hatâ— certaine and firme authoritie or no some learned men b Dubium excutiendum est an Concilium per legatos suÌ„mi PoÌ„tificis celebratum firmam certaÌ„que habeat authoritatem an potius episcopi Romani confirmatio expectaÌ„da sit vt certa habeaÌ„tur decreta CoÌ„cilij Idem c. 5. viri doctissimi doe affirme it because it represents the vniuersall Church which cannot erre Wherevnto Canus answers that the whole Church or an approued Councell which doth perfectlie represent it cannot erre but a part of either may c Ibidem The iudgment saith he of the greater part of the Councell though the Legates follow it is not certaine certum autem esset si a summo Pontifice confirmaretur but if it should be confirmed by the Pope it would be certaine And in the same manner he doth answer to a second argument of assistance made for the same purpose d Ibidem euen as saith he that which seemeth good to the whole Church the same also seemeth good to the holie Ghost but not presentlie what the greater part of the Church shall haue iudged the same is the iudgment of the holie Ghost so if anything be iudged by all the Bishops it is verilie iudged by the spirit of God but not presentlie if many fathers of the Councell agree into one sentence shall it be to be beleeued the sentence of the holie Ghost vnles it be confirmed by the Pope 3. By the waie I obserue here two things one is that if an author interprete those words Ecclesia errare non potest the Church cannot erre of the whole or vniuersall Church it doth not followe that he denies therefore infallibilitie to generall approued Councells which are perfect representations of the Church diffused for this e Simile in S. Antonino obseruare licet de quo suprà Et nota post verba ab aduersarijs citata vt supa pag. 86. seqâ—i immediatè in authore sic igitur non ego admitto vt totum Concilium cuÌ„ legatis errare possit at errare poterit maior pâ—â—s Concâ—lij eâ—â—nti illi poteruÌ„â— le gatis subscribere Aâ— que id est quod nos in praesentia dicimus â—udicium maioris partis etiam si legati sequantur non esse certum certùm autem esset si à summo Pontificeconfirmaretur Nec enim opus est quemad moduÌ„paulò antè docuimus sententiaÌ„ Concilij omnes simul patres approbare Canus li. 5. c. 5 q. â— man whom you cite for the former part doth also maintaine the later And the manner of arguing is indeed absurd because it would impugne one truth by another As if I should saie the whole Gospell of S. Iohn is the vndoubted word of God therefore the first Chapter of it is not And were it admitted it would proue as before I said on the same occasion that euerie Apostle yea all the Apostles and Fathers might haue consented in a grosse yea and in the most fundamentall errour because they be not the whole and vniuersall Church The other thing which I obserue is that without sinceritie or conscience you doe make vse of mens words contrarie to their knowne professed meaning and intention which proceeding especiallie in matter of religion is inexcusable The like obseruation I might haue made in Antoninus who is alleaged against that which he did openlie maintaine §. VIII 1. Stapleton did acknowledge degrees of extension in diuine assistance and maintaine the infallibilitie of the Church in her publike decrees of faith 2. To be obnoxious to errour in matters not reuealed doth not any way impeach the promise of assistance and infallibilitie in all that doth intrinsecallie appertaine to the substance of diuine faith QVando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertinent sed salua fidei compage variè a varijs intelligâ— possunt c. consulitur vel obiter disputat Ecclesia aberrare aliquando poterit c. ex Stap. 1. STAPLETON is brought as if he gaue no more to the Church and her Councells then Protestants doe because he doth not maintaine their infallibilitie in curious subtilities and questions indifferent vnto faith nor thinke it so ample in obiect as was that of the Apostles Where first it is to be considered that as in faith or science so likewise in assistance or infallibilitie more or lesse extension doth not change the nature of the thing Mathematicall science in one is more extended then in another one knowes more conclusions then another doth yet is it in both of the same nature The light of glorie in all the Saints is of the same Species and kinde as the Deuines teach though one by it knowes more another lesse Faith in vs and in the Apostles before and since the Incarnation is of the same nature but more extended in the Apostles then in vs and since the incarnation more generallie then it was before The like wee saie of assistance or infallibilitie in iudgment it hath been more extended in some then in others more at one time then at another Secondlie it is to be considered that the Apostles who did write scripture had infallibilitie in a Singuli Apostoli de omnibus plenissimè à Deo instructierant ita vt eorum quilibet de quocunque dogmate ad fidem siuè necessariò siue noÌ„ necessariò pertinente pronunciare potuisset idquetanta certitudine vt non solum pastores essent fidelissimi sed etiaÌ„ magistri peritissimi omniaque etiam subtilissima circa fidei mysteria penerarent Staeplet de princip fidei Doctrinal li. 8. c. 15. Quod autem de Apostolis modo diximus
intellecta vel à nobis S. Aug epist 111. Other bookes haue not in euerie part that infallibilitie other writers haue not such ample assistance as the Sacred writers had SI diuinarum scripturarum earum sc quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur perspicua firmatur authoritate sine vllae dubitatione credendum est Alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti ad faciendam fidem vel habere vel non habere perpenderis Baro p. 336. ex Aug. epist 112. 2. THe Second exception is that S. Augustine in an other place Epist 112. speakes not of writings only but of witnesses and leaues it as it is pretended in our choise whether wee will beleeue or not beleeue any but the Scripture Wherevnto I answer that he doth not either there or in any other place of his writings reiect all authoritie or testimonie that is other in your sence binding vs onlie to the scripture so as you pretend For it is manifest that he doth admit the testimonie of the Church as infallible esteeming it c S. August epist. 118. c. 5. most insolent madnes to contradict it yet the Church is not scripture To this purpose there be many places in him whereof I will cite one In his booke de Vnit. Eccl. disputing with an heretick about the Question of rebaptizing such as out of the Church had been baptized and vrging the custome of the Church which did receaue such as were penitent into communion without rebaptizing he makes this discourse d S. Aug. de vnit Eccles c. 19. If some wise man to whom our Lord Iesus giues testimonie should be consulted of vs in this Question wee ought no waies to doubt of doing or putting in execution what he tould vs least wee should be esteemed to repugne not so much him as our Lord Iesus Christ by whose testimonie he was commended now our Lord Iesus doth giue testimonie to his Church wherefore as that Church diffused thorough all Nations beginning at Hierusalem doth receaue such penitents so without all windings and tergiuersation thou art to be receaued And if thou wilt not thou doest most perniciouslie cōtrarie to thy owne saluation striue against not me or any mā but our Sauiour himselfe whilst thou wilt not beleeue that thou art so to be admitted as that Church which he whom not to beleeue thou doest confesse to be detestable commends with his testimonie doth admit The same is confirmed out of the Gospell wherein our blessed sauiour saith to his Apostles and Disciples and in them to the Church that they should beare e Matth. 24. Ioan. 15 testimonie of him yet the Apostles the Disciples the whole Church be not Scripture Againe f Luc. 10. he that heareth you heareth me saith our Sauiour he that contemneth you contemneth me There is therefore an authoritie aliue and distinct from the written word which wee must yeeld vnto by S. Augustine also confessed and consequentlie it is not in our choise to beleeue or contemne any but the scripture Nor were the primitiue Christians without obligation of beleeuing the Gospell proposed vnto them by the Apostles before it was written downe as you knowe by those words which immediatelie followe their commission g Marc. vlt. he that beleeueth not shall be condemned To the place obiected Supra pag 107. alijs testibus vel testmonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi creder◠vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti c. Pag. 108. his words aboue cited doe suggest an easie answer as this Others not commended by this authoritie beleeue or not beleeue as you see cause but others commended by this authoritie you must beleeue as farre as by it they are warranted and commended Our Sauiour proued that those who beleeued Moyses and the Prophets and the Psalmes must beleeue him for of him they giue testimonie The like it is of the Church if you beleeue the Prophets you must beleeue the vniuersall Church for they giue testimonie of it and as S. Augustine saith more cleere then of our i S. Augu. Enarr in psal 30. conc 2. Sauiour himselfe One testimonie may warrant another and so they will become in a manner one He that obaieth the magistrate doth therein honour the Prince by whom he is put in authoritie And he that yeildeth all due reuerence to Princes doth therein a dutie vnto God who commands it Wee stoope to God when with all reuerence we receaue his word written or vnwritten and wee submit our selues to the written word or Scripture when wee listen to the Church which the Scripture doth commend When S. Augustine in his dispute with Cresconius about rebaptization was come this k S. Aug. li. 1. contra Cresco c. 31. 32. quia nec vos potestis proferre de Scripturis quarum nobis communis est authoritas ab haereticis venientem denuò baptizatum nec nos ita susceptum quantum ad hanc remattinet par nobis causa est Since neither you can produce out of Scriptures whose authoritie is common to vs one comming from Heretikes againe baptized nor wee one so receaued for as much as concernes this matter that is producing out the Scripture an example of the one or the other our cause is equall he shewes notwithstanding how euen in this point the Church in his time and he with it followed the most certaine authoritie of the Scripture l Ibidem c. 35. neque enim paruï momenti c. for it is not of small regard or moment that whe among the Bishops of the age precedent to the time when Donatus part or faction began to be this Question did wauer and had the different Opiniōs of compartners or collegues amongst themselues without breach of vnitie it was thought good that this which wee now maintaine should be obserued by the whole Catholike Church spred ouer all the world And a litle after wherefore though trulie there be not any example of this thing brought out of the canonicall Scriptures yet the truth of the same Scriptures is held of vs and euen in this thing when wee doe that which hath now seemed good to the vniuersall Church whom the authoritie of the same Scriptures doth commend that because the holie Scripture cannot deceaue whosoeuer feares to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this Question and of any other obscure Question pertaining to faith it is the same eandem Ecclesiam de illa consulat let him require in it the iudgment of the same Church which the holie Scripture without ambiguitie doth demonstrate There is yet a further Answer in the word Alijs You know that actions donne with ones owne hād by the motion of his owne spirit a man reputes not aliene but his owne So doth our B. Sauiour esteeme the actions of his mysticall bodie donne by the motion of his Spirit Settle
and this custome onlie was opposed to those which endeuoured to bring in that noueltie of rebaptization because they could not apprehend the truth yet afterwards whilst amongst many on both sides it is spoken of and sought it is not only sound out but also brought to the authoritie and strength of a generall Councell after Cyprians passion indeed but afore wee were borne And a litle after the words obiected gg c. 4. Neither durst wee affirme any such thing if wee were not well grounded vpon the most consenting or agreeable authoritie of the vniuersall Church vnto which vndoubtedlie he S. Cyprian would haue yeelded if as then the truth of this question being cleered and declared had been established by a generall Councell Hence it followes first that he did acknowledge in generall Councells authoritie to determine controuersies and this controuersie particularlie of rebaptization which you hh Error de rebaptizatione hereticorum qui certè fundamentalis â—o fuâ—â— noâ—dum erat in concilio plenario damnatus c. Baro p. 348. confesse was not in a matter fundamentall and that therein the truth was established by authoritie not of scripture this matter was not so resolued but of the world in a Councell and so farre established that all were to beleeue it and remotis dubitationibus without as much as doubting of it Whence it comes secondlie that to resist such a decree it is diabolicall which word he doth vse vppon another occasion and that such as maintaine the contrarie are indeed heretikes Thirdlie it is to be repeated which hath been said oft before that though wee maintaine the infallibilitie of sincere and approued generall Councells in their decrees of faith yet wee doe not beleeue that their infallibilitie is extended vnto all they write or speake and in all kinde of matter as not equallizing their acts with bookes of Scripture and consequentlie there may be something in such a Councell sometime that may need mending Neither yet doe wee maintaine or beleeue that all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall haue infallibilitie in their decrees some haue as those which are approued some haue not and these later may need mending euen in the decree they make touching faith Moreouer though the Councell that is plenarie and approued cannot commaund a vice or condemne vertue by decree yet may it commaund that which after may proue inconuenient or forbid what after may be admitted when circumstances are changed And if a lawe which at first was well made the circumstances of time and persons being afterwards other then they were before and notablie changed become inconuenient and consequentlie not good in these circumstances though good in it selfe and in other circumstances such as those were wherein it was first made it may be changed by power equall to that which made it The Apostles by decree did forbid the eating of suffocata things strangled yet afterwards when the circumstances were charged and feare of scandall quite remoued the Church began to doe the contrarie To frequent the ceremonies of the lawe now it were a Sinne peccaret mortalitersi quis nunc ceremonias obscruaret S. Tho. 1.2 q. 103. a. 4. though you knowe by what authoritie for the time they were commaunded If you be sick physick is good if you be well the same is bad for you The same thing may be conuenient and inconuenient good and bad in diuers circumstances When the common-wealth is distempered a lawe may be necessarie and at other times not vsefull yea inconuenient and therefore to be annulled And the common-wealth in anulling of it mends her Statute-booke respectiuelie to these later circumstances though when she made it first she did not commit a fault Fourthlie it is to be noted that by the doctrine of S. Augustine before deliuered there be some kinde of Councells which in their decrees of faith are not to be mended nor to be doubted of that it is hereticall to oppose them and consequentlie that they haue nor exteriour onlie but interiour obedience also remotis dubitationibus due to such their decrees which being manifest in him you labour in vaine to be extend his words obiected vnto all which were to make him contradict both the truth and the Church of his time and himselfe He saith and wee too that some generall Councells may be mended when by tryall or experiment that is opened which was shut vp and knowne which before was vnknowne but some generall Councells cannot be mended no nor questioned or doubted of in their decrees touching faith Now to your obiections in particular First you saie that he speakes of mending in matter of faith I answer that those words in matter of faith be your addition He speakes indeed of mending in such matters as by triall or experiment may be knowne but diuine verities which are the obiect of our faith be not of this nature Neither if there had been expressed in that clause which is of generall Councels matters of faith were you able to conclude any thing against vs for wee graunt that some which beare the name may be mended in that also Of all wee cannot graunt it without contradicting S. Augustine and making him withall to contradict himselfe Secondlie you saie that his scope or intention was to distinguish the authoritie of Scripture from all other authoritie wherefore since no generall Councell whatsoeuer is Scripture he meanes them all and will haue all subiect vnto mending I answer that he intended to satisfie three things obiected 1. S. Cyprians sentence or example 2. S. Cyprians writings 3. S. Cyprians Councell The comparison of Scripture is with writings and it is a part of his answer to the Second point as I haue related it And it is true that this writing hath the prerogatiue aboue all writings vide suprà pag. 130. pag. 106. marg that nothing at all can be questioned which it affirmes To S. Cyprians Epistles or any other mans wee owe not that seruice or honour Of Councels he speakes afterwards in the third place and you knowe that it is not essentiall to their decrees to be written There is also great difference betwixt Councells and the Scripture in infallibilitie as hath been showne many times although the decrees in faith of such as are approued are infallible But if you will haue him aime at this that all generall Councels whatsoeuer may be mended and in their decrees of faith you make him as before was obserued to contradict himselfe For these are contradictorie some may not as that of Nice and all may Moreouer by that saepè it is manifest that his speach is not generall as you would haue it saepè is short of Semper And the qualification which he doth vse is another argument of the same Thirdlie you saie that vnles S. Augustine speake in the words principallie obiected of amendment in matter of faith he leaues vnanswered the Donatists obiection But neither will this make any thing to your
superare Omnium enim Haereticorum quasi regularis est ista temeritas Sed ille fidei imperator clementissimus per conuentus celeberrimos populorum atque gentium sedesque ipsas Apostolorum arce authoritatis muniuit Ecclesiam per pauciores piè doctos verè spirituales viros copiosissimis apparatibus etiam inuictissimae rationis armauit S. Aug. Epist ad Diosc 56. reason against the Church to the end they may seeme to bring something greater for to oppresse or ouercome her authoritie as S. Augustine well obserued long agoe And by the like stratagem did the pagaÌ„s heeretefore striue to withdraw men whollie from the Creede by shewing the contrarie so cleerelie that no doubt as they pretended could be made of it which was a way they thought to get qq In Catholica me tenet consensio populorum atque gentium c. apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat sola personat veritatis pollicitatio quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur vt in dubium venire non possit praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in catholica teneor Si autem tantummodo promittitur non exhibetur nemo me mouebit ab ea fide quae animum meum tot tantis nexibus Christianae religionis astringit S. Aug. contra Epist Manich. Fundam c. 4. Promittebaâ— scientiam veritatis nunc quod nescio cogis vt credam c. 5. Multò iustiùs cautiùs facio si catholicis quoniam semel credidi ad te non transeo nisi me non credere iusteris sed manifestissimè ac apertissimè scire aliquid feceris Quocirca si mihi rationem redditùrus es dimitte Euangelium Si ad Euangelium me tenes ego ad eos me teneam quibus praecipientibus Euangelio credidi his iubentibus tibi omnino non ctedam Quod si fortè in Euangelio aliquod apertissimum de Manichaei apostolatu inuenire potueris infirmabis mihi catholicorum authoritatem qui iubent mihi vt tibi non credam Qua infirmata iam nec Euangelio credere potero c. Sed absit vt ego Euangelio non credam Ibidem schollers but it proued a meere bragge §. X. 1. Optatus cited his Aduersaries who refused to submitte them selues to the Church to be tryed by the Testament admitted by themselues But the cause it self was in the iudgment of the whole Catholike world to be decided in a Councell and was in fine so determined 2. For finding out the truth in matter of faith recourse is to be made to the fountaine VOs dicitis licet nos non licet inter licet vestrum non licet nostrum nutant remigant animi populorum Nemo vobis credat nemo nobis omnes contentiosi homines sumus Esto Quaerendi sunt iudices si Christiani de vtraque parte dari non possunt quia studijs veritas impeditur Deforis quaerendus est Iudex si paganus non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudaeus inimicus est Christiani baptismatis Ergo in terriâ— nullum de hac re reperiri poâ—erit iudictum de caelo quaerendus est Iudex Sed vt quid palsamus ad caelum cum habeamus hic in Euangelio testamentum Baro p. 328. ex Optato 1. HAuing answered what was obiected out of S. Augugustine he will vndertake for vs to satisfie that you bring from Optatus and where he lookes about for a Iudge to decide the controuersie moued by the Donatists this great Doctour doth answer yea the a S. Aâ—g contra Donatiâ—tas passim Specialiter vide li. 2. de Bapt c. 7 li 5. c. 23. li. 1. coâ—t Cresc c. 31. 32 whole Catholike world did agree that the matter was to be defined in Councell and that not by cleere scripture there was none but by tradition By the testament yes not the written but the nuncupatiue By the holie Ghost c S Aug suprà inter citat ex Ock lit 1. a iudge from heauen but speaking b in a Councell The whole world did iudge that this verie Controuersie whereof Optatus speakes was to be determined so and accordinglie it was so determined and ended Neither doth Optatus denie that which all Catholikes when Saint Augustine wrote graunted and he himselfe yeelded as much of the c Serpit corum sermo vâ—lut cancer dixit hoc de haereticis quorum caeperat esse illis temporibus vitiosa doctrina c. Dictum est hoc de Arrio cuius doctrina nisi Nicaeno Concilio à 318. Episcopis dissiparetur pectora multorum sicut cancer intrauerat Optat. Milleu li. 4. Nicene Councell of whose authoritie wee shall presentlie heare more from S. Anathasius who was in it that the Church which hath promise of assistance or the Pastors all assembled in a CouÌ„cell those whom the holie Ghost hath placed to gouerne and our Sauiour hath giuen to keepe vs from being borne about with euerie winde of doctrine haue power to determine a controuersie in Religion But the Donatists excepting against the Catholikes as parties in the cause he betakes himselfe to scripture against which being admitted on both sides that pretended exception had no place children that contend about a Legacie both admit their father testament and if there his words decide the controuersie they rest and so he pleades the Donatists must do when the words of our Sauiours will or testament be showed vnles they proceede as they had denied Church-authoritie so to denie that and him So on he goes to shewe the thing inscripture But what if the words of the testameÌ„t be obscure The matter then requires a Iudge and this Iudge must haue authoritie and assistance if the case be as this was about diuine faith which assistance none hath but by vertue of our Sauiours promise and his promise was made to none but to the Church not to Pagans nor heretikes but to the Church wherefore the Church is to iudge Yet further what if the words of the testament haue it not at all the question was Whether one baptized by an heretike was to be baptized againe when he came into the Church The answer to which Question you doe not finde in scripture the d Qui lotus est c. place which Optatus brings doth not mention such as were baptized by heretikes There is not in all scripture Saint Augustine saies an e Quamuia huius rei certè de scripturis canonicis non proferatur exemplum c. S. Aug. li. cont Cresc c. 33 vt suprà Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt sed consuetudo illa quae opponebatur Cypriano ab eorum traditione exordium sumpsisse credenda est sicut sunt multa quae vniuersa tenet Ecclesia ob hoc ab Apostolis praecepta benè creduÌ„tur quanquam scripta non reperian tur li. 5. de bapt c. 23. Cùm in Scripturis non inueniamus aliquos c. De vnitate