view of all the Israelites so those Books of Scripture though I exclude none which are plainest and most obvious to the understanding of all Christians are specially to be accounted as our pillar of cloud and fire to direct us how and where in all ages we should follow the Lamb Thirdly It is strange to me that you should affirm That the foundation of the Beast doth consist in an usurped power of Church-Discipline footed on mans will without Gods call It is true that what Discipline is exercised only on mans will without Gods call is bestial as you term it and Antichristian As 1. That which for the thing it self was wholly invented by Antichrist not being once mentioned in the Gospel such was amongst others the Popes interdicting of whole Realms for having any service of God used in them upon their offending against his commands and Ordinances 2. And if for the matter it self it were Christs Discipline yet it was managed not by the hands of Christs Officers but of Antichrist and against Christs faithfull servants such was Excommunication exercised by the Pope papal Bishops Commissaries and the like Notwithstanding Discipline nor the usurped power of it cannot be the foundation of the Beast There are three things in Christian and so in Antichristian Religion Doctrine Worship and Discipline and these so answer one another that look what place any one of them hath in the one the same it hath in the other Religion Now none ever did or can affirm Discipline to be the foundation of Christian Religion it is but as the roof or at best but as the wals of it and serves to beautifie or to guard and preserve it It is sound Doctrine in the principles of faith that is the foundation of Christian Religion 1 Cor 3. 11. So it is the false Doctrine of the Roman Church that is the foundation of the Beast and Antichristian Religion And this the Apostle S. John doth teach 1 Joh 4. 23. Every one that confesseth Christ to be come in the flesh is of God but every one that denieth Christ to be come in the flesh is not of God this is the spirit of Antichrist It is in effect as much as if he had said Sound Doctrine concerning Christ his Nature Person and Offices is the main ground and mark of Christian Religion and false doctrine touching these things the principal note and ground of Antichristian Religion Besides the Popes extravagant exercise of Discipline in excommunicating suspending c. not onely single persons but whole Nations and disposing all Church-dignities c. was founded on that false Doctrine which was first laid That the Pope was an Vniversal Bishop Vicar of Christ and the visible Head of the Church Doctrine then is the foundation of the Beast and not the usurped power of Church-Discipline Lastly None can comply with the Beast in the foundation of his estate without losse of his salvation as who doth lie and relie on some other besides the onely foundation of salvation which is Jesus Christ and worshippeth the Beast in acknowledging him for the Vicar of Christ in the Church and supreme Head under him and submits to his Decrees and new Articles of faith But many may and have too much complied with the Beast in the exercise of Discipline viz. Excommunication Suspension Ordination c managing it in a Popish manner whom yet we have just cause to acknowledge and should deal most uncharitably not to acknowledge for the main to have been godly Christians and out of doubt saved Such as were those Diocesan Bishops in Queen Maries dayes Ridley Latimer Hooper c. and Grindal Jewel and others in Queen Elizabeths Reign Fourthly It is a new conceit not heard of before among Interpreters of the Apocalyps and which I cannot imbrace That in these our times we are called onely to separating from Babylon and rewarding her so that upon separating from her if Gods people go further as to set up reformed Churches and gather themselves into Church-order it is in your opinion against or at least without Gods command But First This is a course flat contrary to that which the Lord hath followed and prescribed to his people in former times whose separation from Idolaters and prophane Nations was still accompanied with a present setting up of a Church-society for Gods service and mutual edification No sooner did God call Abraham out of his idolatrous Countrey but he set up a visible Church in his Family teaching him to call on God and set up alturs for his Worship Gen. 12. 8 and furnishing him with some power of Discipline Genes 17. 14. and 18. 19. So when the Lord brought the Israelites out of Aegypt he brought them not out to wander up and down as a confused multitude but within short time formed them into a Church and within a year or thereabouts gave them the Law furnished them with a Tabernacle Sacrifices Ministry and Ordinances of all sorts This did the Jews also upon their return out of Babylon take to be their duty in a Church-way to set up Gods worship in building the Temple providing Sacrifices restoring the Ministery and ordering means for them And when the Jews slacked their hand this way upon a pretence that the due time to build the house of God was not yet come much like as you now say it is not yet time to set up visible Churches or Church-Discipline they were reproved for the slacknesse and vain pretence by the Prophet Haggai Hag. 1. 3 5. And did not the Apostles the like also at the first preaching of the Gospel so call men from Paganism and Judaism as those that did separate from them and imbrace the Gospel were with all convenient speed gathered and formed into Christian Churches to exercise Gods Worship and Discipline among themselves And what sound reason can be given why the separation Gods people are called to Revel. 18. 4. should not be thus presently followed with joyning together in visible Churches to serve God aright and enjoy all his Ordinances but that they must remain a separated people without any Church-order among themselves untill all the vials be poured out that is none knows how long Secondly This is against a common rule for interpretation of Scripture Among which rules this is an approved one That what Scripture doth command the avoiding any thing as evil the same doth virtually command the pursuing of the contrary good Hence commonly those two commands go together Flee evil and follow good Psal. 34. 14. Isa. 16. 17. Rom. 12. 9. and in many other places The reason whereof is plain because as the perfection of a good tree is not in wanting bad fruit but in bearing good so the true goodnesse of a Christian is not in forbearing evil but in doing good This then is certain that the voice from Heaven which cals Gods people to depart from Babylon as idolatrous and to keep themselves from her sins doth virtually call upon them
to seek our Sion and to joyn with her in society for the worship of God which Sion if it were not then extant or to be enjoyed the command were vain and their endeavour would be to no purpose Thirdly This conceit and course doth cast a foul blot of gross ignorance or rash presumption upon all reformed Churches which upon their breaking off from Rome have not contented themselves with a bare separation but did also set up evangelical Churches opposite to the Roman for Doctrine Worship and Discipline some lesse and some more pure and perfect So hath all Reformation been practised in Germany France Netherland Scotland Old and New England of late And what man is he or who be they unlesse they can prove themselves new Apostles or Prophets or have the pregnant word of God for it and build not only upon their own conjectural interpretation of prophetical mysteries about which other godly learned are at a stand who will presume to tax and blemish so many famous Churches and so many godly and learned Divines which were their guides and leaders Surely it is not piety to condemn the generation of the righteous Psalm 73. 15. nor humility to slight the consent of so many Churches of God 1 Cor. 11. 16. Fourthly It is well worth the while to scan the time when this call for separation Revel. 18. 4. was given And if all circumstances be well weighed this call was not proclaimed untill God had put it into the heart of some Kings and States to joyn to invade and destroy Rome itself which preparation is intimated before Chap. 17. 16. and was surely about the pouring out of the last or some of the last vials And now being ready to give the on-set on Rome by this voice they are called on to plague her thorowly Revel. 18. 6. At which time this call is directed to such of Gods people as might then be hidden in that idolatrous City or the adjoining Territories by a personal flight to forsake her and those places of danger and provide for their safety Which things considered it is not clear that the time of this call is yet come since we see small preparation made as yet or intended by Christian States or Princes against Rome the Throne of the Beast or Italy his Nest and Fortresse And how long it will be ere this be effected onely the Lord knows I am sure that most accounts that learned men have hitherto made of these things have missed and they are in a mist about the three or four last vials not being able certainly to unfold them So that if you have no other ground for your separation then that call as you produce none other you are in danger to prevent the due time of separation and to do all you do in it meerly upon your own will without Gods call As for the spiritual separation made by Protestant Princes and Churches from Rome in Doctrine and Worship as they had a warrant for it from this call the reasons whereof being such as belong to all times and persons not to partake in Romes sins do sufficiently enforce it so had they pregnant grounds for it also from other general commands to flee Idolatry and set up Gods Worship I may last ask Why you and your company go farther in your practice then bare separation For if by separation Revel. 18. 4. you understand a separation meerly negative to be meant as you needs must to make it serve your turn by what warrant do you on the Lords-day celebrate holy Assemblies and exercise the main parts of Gods Worship by your selves and in opposition to our publick Assemblies which you account bestial For this kinde of separation allows no such practice but confines it self to an abstaining from all communion in the publick Worship if corrupt and so farre as it is corrupt But if it be a positive separation that the godly are called to as your practice doth interpret it then nothing lets but others also may set up Churches for the enjoying of all Ordinances as well as you for some And surely when the Apostle did urge such a call for separation unto the Corinthians 1 Cor. 6. 17. out of Isa. 52. 11. he did conceive that the Christians of Corinth were not onely called barely to separate from Paganish Idolatry but also to join together in the true worship of God Fifthly Here follow some things which I apprehend to be some reasons of this your Assertion touching this point of separation 1. We are yet you say but in our journey to Sion visibly separated and not arrived thither and so may not take on us to set up Sion-like Churches Answ. But why are we but on our journey unto Sion visibly separated when as the Apostle describeth this to be the estate of all imbracing the Gospel that they are come to Mount Sion and the celestial Jerusalem and the same not meerly invisible but visibly separated from the impious world Heb. 12. 22. 2. St John saw many thousands Revel. 14. 1. walking with the Lamb on Mount Sion and the same visible as seen by John during the time of the great Apostasie and before the time of this more publick departure and Reformation And why may not our late reformed Christians be ranged among those thousands and admitted to the same Mount Sion with them since in their Reformation they have endeavoured to conform unto them 1. In bearing their Fathers name in their forehead by an open profession of Religion 2 In restoring an orderly performance of Gods Worship by the Ministery and Church-assemblies as they praised God before the four Beasts and the Elders 3. In ascribing their redemption only to God and praising him for it which is meant by the new Song those hundred fourty four thousand did sing 4. By cleansing themselves from Popish Idolatry as those kept themselves virgins and undefiled 5. By holding forth the practice of holinesse as in the mouths of the other there was no guile 3. Admit that we be but in our way to this Sion what lets but that we may set up and use all Gods Ordinances as well as some in this our journey The Israelites whenas they were but in their way to Canaan had all Gods Ordinances set up amongst them and made use of them more or lesse as their unsetled estate and sudden occasions of removing would give leave What you seem elswhere to conclude to this purpose from the Jews bringing along the Temple-vessels with them from Babylon but not officiating with them in their way shall in its place be considered About these matters you referre me to Revel. 15. 8. where we read that the Temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God c. that none could enter into it untill the seven plagues of the seven Angels were fulfilled From whence it seems you would conclude that we are not yet come to Sion Answ. I wish you had made the argument your self opened the
bent themselves to finde out the mysteries of that Book then any one man though he would be held as singular in this mystical Divinity as Plato was in Philosophy And that which you point unto farther out of Isa. 62. 5. if they both concern one thing and time as you seem to intimate doth much confirm this Interpretation For it directly and expresly speaks of Sion and its restoring as appears by the beginning of the Chapter and what follows which if it had not its full accomplishment in the Jews Deliverance out of Babylon and their Church and Commonwealth restauration thereupon it cannot well be applied otherwise then to the last conversion of the Jewish Nation and to that excellent Church-condition whereunto they shall then be brought Secondly Touching this allegation and all other of the same kinde much used by you I wish that that notable saying of Irenaeus so much approved by learned Divines were known to or regarded by you Omnis Prophetia priusquam habeat efficaciam anigmata ambiguitas sunt hominibus Cum autem venerit tempus evenit quod Prophetatum est â—um Prophetiae habent liquidam certam expositionem All Prophecie before it be accomplished presents nothing but Riddles and matters of doubt unto men but when the time is come and that is fulfilled which was prophesied then Prophecies have a clear and certain exposition According to which most right sentence I say that the mystical Prophecies of the Apocalyps or other Scripture which are but in part fulfilled but specially such as yet are wholly to be fulfilled and so subject to various Interpretations are too too weak grounds to build such lofty opinions and assertions upon as befool all learned Divines over-turn all right and orderly Ministry and turn all latter Christian Churches into Antichristian For who is he that can infallibly say What is meant by the vials poured out on Euphrates or on the Air by the Marriage of the Lamb and of his Bride and sundry other things in the following Chapters as he ought to be able to doe that will inferre and make good such high and destructive Paradoxes as are above-mentioned There are many Prophecies in that Book already in part fulfilled as many things about the two Witnesses the distinction of the first and second Beast the vial poured out on the Sun with divers things Chap. 14 and 16. about which the learned which have searched into those Mysteries do so differ that a man cannot finde from them any sure ground to rest upon It is doubtlesse lawfull and profitable as you and others do to search into the Mysteries of that Book But for a clear and full Interpretation of some things already fulfilled much more of things to be fulfilled we must wait the Lords time to which somewhat doth accord that proverbial Speech That Veritas est temporis filia and his Revelation of them by clear and indubitable events But by these mistakes and differences of learned men as diligent and understanding searchers as our selves we should learn to be moderate and wary how we did peremptorily determine matters so abstruse and upon such our private determinations lay the weight of such notable Paradoxes and strange strains which to doe is rather rash presumption and self-confidence then true knowledge and wisdom Sixthly Now follows your fourth Assertion viz. That the breathing of the Spirit both in Officers and Ordinances which acted in them in the Primitive times is now restrained and as seems to be your meaning hath been restrained ever since the Apostasie so that they were all that while and now are but as a carcase without a soul Answ. If this be so What means have there been all this while for mens conversion and salvation For which the Lord out of his goodnesse cannot but ever make due provision From whence hath proceeded the conversion of thousands which have been wrought on since the Apostasie if not from the Officers and Ordinances that have succeeded the Primitive times and in some measure continued under the corrupt state of the Church and the spirits breathing in and working by them St John saw and that under the Apostasie a hundred fourty four thousand waiting upon the Lamb in Mount Sion Revel. 14. 1. Whence now had these their conversion but from the Spirit in those times breathing in and by the Officers and Oâ—dinances that then were Again S. John saw it seems after this on Mount Sion upon the declining of Antichrist a great number standing by a glassie-sea mingled with fire which had gotten the victory over the Beast his Image his Mark and the number of his Name singing a new Song and praising God for their deliverance Rev. 15. 2 3. Whence had these their conversion They were not I ween Aborigenes a people sprung out of the earth or let down out of the Heavens but surely had their spiritual birth and being from the Spirit breathing in the Officers and Ordinances of those times Lastly Have not thousands in these latter times in the reformed Churches and so are many the Lord be praised unto this day been converted to the faith by the preaching of the Ministers in them And what more ample testimony can there be then this that their ministery is not a carcase without a soul but that the Spirit doth breathe in the Ordinance of pteaching and Sacraments administred by them It may here by you be suggested perhaps that in all these Ages and so now they preached but as gifted men and in that way the Spirit went along with them Not as Ministers by Office Answ. This is but said and not proved and so may as easily be denied as it is affirmed 2. They in all Ages former and latter stood and acted as Ministers by Office were so acknowledged and received by the Churches yea and also Christians converted untill of late that they have been taught a new ungratefull lesson who felt the power of the Spirit working on them by their preaching did look on their conversion as a fruit of their true official Ministry and a seal thereof 3 The Apostle Paul doth produce the conversion of the Corinthians by his preaching not so much for a proof that he was a man sufficiently gifted for the work of the Ministry but as a seal of his Apostleship and as a divine testimony that as he acted as an Apostle in his Preaching so indeed he was and so they were to acknowledge him 2 Cor. 3. 2. 2 Cor. 9. 1 2. If therefore the conversion of the Corinthians were proof sufficient for Paul that he was an Apostle that is an official Minister though extraordinary surely the work of conversion formerly and now wrought by them doth suffice to make good That the Ministers of the reformed Churches have been and are right Ministers of Christ and rightly in office under him Lastly For that of Revel. 7. 1. which you point to of the four Angels holding the four windes that they
that should conduce to make them partakers of the Covenant and benefits of it causing them to imbrace it and stablishing them in it But then this is not a thing peculiar to the first kinde of Ordinances but belongs also to the latter which have their use both in admitting men into fellowship with Christ and his Church and maintaining them in it Sixthly You grant That these first Ordinances have never been lost but continued all the time of the Apostasie But what doth this grant avail for any benefit to Gods people all that while or now when you did before affirm that they are but dead Ordinances and have not the Spirit breathing in or by them nor shall have untill the brightnesse of Christs coming Seventhly How doth it appear that those latter Ordinances have been lost as you seem to imply during the Apostasie more then the former 1. The use of them was held up all that while in the Antichristian Church where was Ordination Excommunication Absolution c. and that as Ordinances of Christ as well as Teaching Baptism the Lords Supper c. and since the Reformation have more or lesse been taken up and used in the reformed Churches 2. To that you say they were not alwayes rightly used nor alway in right hands I answer That if that abolish them upon the same grounds those former Ordinances may as well be said to have been lost as having been in many things corrupted and usurped by those who had little right to meddle with them 3. What reasons soever are or can be alledged for the continuance of the first sort are as strong for the continuance of this latter kinde 1. There is for these Christs Institution as well as for those 2. They were instituted not only for a time but to be continued untill the last day Ephes. â— 11 12 13. In the 11 verse there is the Institution of an Ecclesiastical and Official Ministry distinct one from another as some to be such and others to be such So that they that were Apostles Evangelists c. were not properly Pastors nor Teachers Nor they which were properly Pastors and Teachers were not Apostles nor Prophets c. If they were all the same in office and power what should need such an enumeration of so many kindes distinct one from the other verse 12. is specified the end for which they were given namely the perfect Knitting together of the Saints the work of the Ministry the edification of the body of Christ If that then during the Apostasie Christ had any Saints among men to be joyned together any work of the Ministry to be done any mystical body to be edified as doubtlesse he had all these things were to be performed by the officiall Ministry which Christ gave for that end But these things could not be all that while performed by Apostles Prophets Evangelists and therefore were done by other Officials Pastors and Teachers which Christ gave for that end and in some sort continued all those corrupt times In the 13. verse is set down how long this Ministry was to continue even untill we all meet in the unity of the faith and attain to a perfect man in Christ which will not be until the last day of the restoring and consummation of all things 1 Cor. 13. 9 10. Now if Christ did ordain such a Ministry and for such a time he hath surely for the substance maintained and continued it hitherto and so will to the end And if he have not or shall not do so it is either for want of power in him to do it or of love and care for his Churches good either of which to charge upon Christ were sinfull And if this continuance have not been in a successive order of Apostles Prophets and Evangelists which long ago have ceased it hath been continued in an Official Ministry of Pastors and Teachers such as Christ first gave and ordained 3. There is a solemn Commandment for the exercise and keeping up of Discipline untill the coming of Christ 1 Tim. 6. 13 14. There is a streight charge laid upon Timethy to keep that course of Discipline which he had prescribed him in that Epistle Vntill the appearing of Christ Now this command cannot concern Timothy onely who was not to survive so long or to that day But belongeth to the Ministers and Church-officers who in after times were to succeed him in the care and rule of the Church And if Pray continually which you alledge from 1 Thess. 5. 17. to prove that prayer as a Church-ordinance hath been alway continued it being but a command for the continual use of it and that rather of private prayer by Christians in their common course of life then of publick in Church-Assemblies be valid enough to prove your purpose this command of Paul unto Timothy for the exercise of Discipline by him prescribed to be continued unto Christs coming doth necessarily prove the continuance of it in the Church Lastly What you alledge out of Matth. 28. 19 20. for the perp tuity of teaching and Baptism makes as much for the like continued use of Discipline For as the Apostles there are bid to teach and Baptize So likewise are they commanded To teach the Nations to observe all things that he had commanded Among which the exercise of Discipline was certainly one For the maintenance of which his promise is to be present with his Ministers to the end of the world as well as for the continuance of the other Ordinances Now there are many other Scriptures which you point at for proof of this and your other points touching which I wish that you had shewed how the Scriptures pointed at conclude your points For my Logick doth not suffice to conclude the one from the other Eighthly There ensue some reasons as I conceive of them why this second sort of Ordinances are lost First This Key of Discipline was wholly resolved into the Pope I take it that you mean that it was wholly seised on by the Pope and no Discipline was exercised but under and from him Answ. So was it with Teaching Baptism and the Lords Supper and other Ordinances you speak of they were so got into the Popes hands that they were administred and managed by none but those that were authorized by the Pope or by such as under him did conferre authority for the same And if that did not null or abolish Teaching Baptism c. why should it null or abolish Discipline or any part thereof though ingrossed by the Pope and abused by him It was the policy of Satan and that great Impostour under him the Pope to seise into his hands all the Ordinances of Christ that by the shew and pretence of them he might get the credit of Religion and upholding the Christian faith and so the more closely and effectually deceive the Christian world which he could not have done if he had wholly rejected and abolished them and set up onely his own