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church_n apostle_n brethren_n elder_n 4,487 5 9.8925 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A77129 A conference between a Presbyterian minister, and a lawyer concerning all the material points that are in difference between the Presbyterian and the Independent, and in what particulars Presbyterie is an hinderance to Reformation. One great hinderance is, the mainteining of great parishes. Boun, Abraham. 1651 (1651) Wing B3835A; ESTC R230048 53,222 206

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aught_o as_o well_o as_o other_o offering_n be_v lay_v aside_o according_a to_o that_o thou_o shall_v not_o bring_v the_o hire_n of_o a_o whore_n nor_o the_o price_n of_o a_o dog_n into_o the_o house_n of_o the_o lord_n etc._n etc._n and_o what_o agreement_n have_v the_o temple_n of_o god_n with_o idol_n deut._n 23.18_o pr._n but_o now_o i_o pray_v you_o according_a to_o your_o judgement_n what_o must_v become_v of_o all_o our_o church_n it_o seem_v by_o your_o argument_n if_o one_o may_v believe_v you_o they_o must_v all_o be_v pluck_v down_o as_o the_o brownist_n teach_v what_o say_v you_o to_o that_o ph._n touch_v the_o name_n church_n in_o your_o sense_n i_o do_v not_o great_o like_o it_o for_o it_o proper_o signify_v a_o company_n and_o be_v use_v for_o the_o company_n of_o the_o faithful_a yet_o for_o the_o present_a i_o shall_v admit_v the_o word_n by_o a_o metonymy_n to_o signify_v the_o place_n of_o their_o meeting_n and_o i_o do_v not_o conceive_v there_o be_v any_o 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as_o william_n laud_v late_a prelate_n of_o canterbury_n marc._n the_o vulson_n des_fw-fr libert_n de'l_o eglise_fw-fr gallicane_n lib._n 3._o pa._n 233.234.235_o pr._n you_o can_v deny_v the_o succession_n of_o faithful_a minister_n which_o if_o you_o admit_v you_o must_v also_o admit_v the_o succession_n of_o church_n since_o the_o time_n of_o reformation_n ph._n for_o your_o succession_n it_o be_v a_o mear_v dream_n if_o at_o any_o time_n there_o be_v no_o visible_a parish-church_n than_o be_v there_o no_o pastor_n of_o those_o church_n for_o although_o there_o may_v be_v a_o visible_a church_n without_o a_o pastor_n as_o when_o the_o pastor_n die_v the_o church_n be_v not_o unchurch_v yet_o can_v there_o be_v no_o pastor_n of_o a_o church_n unless_o there_o be_v such_o a_o church_n in_o be_v and_o for_o your_o succession_n since_o the_o last_o pretend_a reformation_n it_o be_v interrupt_v in_o queen_n
mary_n day_n when_o a_o popish_a priest_n be_v your_o predecessor_n who_o have_v his_o authority_n from_o the_o bishop_n who_o be_v a_o papist_n and_o hold_a of_o the_o pope_n i_o can_v tell_v you_o their_o name_n if_o need_n be_v and_o neither_o that_o priest_n or_o any_o of_o his_o successor_n ever_o since_o have_v have_v any_o other_o call_v or_o ordination_n but_o from_o the_o bishop_n as_o long_o as_o they_o be_v stand_v pr._n if_o this_o be_v true_a touch_v succession_n yet_o you_o can_v deny_v but_o that_o we_o have_v the_o word_n and_o sacrament_n and_o a_o company_n of_o faithful_a christian_n communicate_v in_o those_o ordinance_n under_o a_o faithful_a pastor_n be_v a_o visible_a church_n of_o christ_n ph._n touch_v the_o word_n and_o sacrament_n i_o have_v already_o give_v you_o a_o answr_n and_o indeed_o the_o papist_n and_o almost_a all_o heretic_n pretend_v as_o you_o do_v and_o have_v the_o word_n among_o they_o and_o their_o minister_n or_o priest_n have_v as_o orderly_o a_o call_v and_o ordination_n as_o you_o have_v and_o yet_o this_o make_v they_o not_o the_o true_a visible_a church_n of_o christ_n as_o all_o you_o do_v acknowledge_v pr._n i_o do_v not_o conceive_v that_o the_o papist_n have_v either_o the_o word_n or_o sacrament_n among_o they_o for_o that_o the_o word_n be_v so_o corrupt_v by_o their_o false_a gloss_n and_o translation_n that_o it_o be_v make_v a_o leaden_a rule_n to_o be_v bow_v every_o way_n to_o serve_v their_o own_o turn_n for_o uphold_v their_o superstition_n and_o their_o service_n be_v in_o latin_a which_o the_o common_a people_n understand_v not_o and_o for_o the_o sacrament_n of_o baptism_n it_o have_v so_o many_o addition_n that_o the_o nature_n of_o it_o be_v destroy_v and_o for_o their_o ministry_n they_o be_v profess_v papist_n and_o adversary_n to_o christ_n in_o all_o his_o office_n ph._n i_o do_v confess_v their_o minister_n be_v no_o minister_n of_o christ_n but_o limb_n of_o antichrist_n in_o respect_n 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this_o sacrament_n administer_v by_o the_o papist_n who_o do_v not_o administer_v it_o but_o with_o these_o addition_n to_o be_v a_o true_a sacrament_n and_o you_o hold_v that_o those_o who_o be_v baptize_v by_o papist_n be_v not_o to_o be_v rebaptise_v pr._n for_o my_o part_n i_o have_v cast_v off_o these_o corruption_n and_o be_o constant_a to_o those_o principle_n tend_v to_o reformation_n which_o other_o my_o reverend_a brethren_n of_o the_o clergy_n have_v approve_v of_o and_o i_o be_o now_o about_o to_o set_v up_o the_o government_n of_o christ_n in_o my_o parish_n ph._n i_o full_o understand_v your_o design_n you_o and_o your_o fellow_n intend_v the_o old_a but_o not_o the_o old_a way_n of_o pretend_a reformation_n wherein_o you_o shuffle_v and_o cut_v as_o fast_o as_o hocus_n pocus_fw-la and_o your_o proceed_n be_v so_o ridiculous_a that_o every_o indifferent_a capacity_n have_v light_a enough_o through_o your_o figleaf_n to_o see_v your_o nakedness_n pr._n wherein_o be_v we_o guilty_a of_o such_o shuffle_n or_o why_o be_v we_o so_o ridiculous_a ph._n in_o your_o proceed_n for_o uphold_v your_o parish_n you_o pretend_v one_o thing_n viz._n reformation_n but_o your_o end_n and_o design_n be_v to_o avoid_v the_o danger_n of_o lose_v your_o live_n in_o case_n the_o parish_n shall_v be_v dissolve_v pr._n i_o know_v nothing_o we_o do_v for_o which_o we_o can_v be_v just_o censure_v we_o continue_v our_o preach_n and_o do_v endeavour_v to_o settle_v presbyterian_a government_n according_a to_o god_n word_n ph._n for_o your_o preach_n i_o earnest_o desire_v you_o may_v sincere_o apply_v yourselves_o to_o it_o for_o that_o probable_o may_v do_v some_o good_a but_o for_o your_o other_o fetch_n and_o device_n they_o savour_v more_o of_o politic_n than_o religion_n square_v by_o god_n word_n pr._n what_o policy_n can_v there_o be_v in_o settle_v the_o presbyterian_a government_n with_o the_o class_n and_o synod_n we_o settle_v nothing_o but_o what_o we_o be_v willing_a likewise_o to_o submit_v unto_o and_o to_o be_v judge_v by_o as_o well_o as_o the_o people_n ph._n let_v the_o government_n be_v what_o it_o will_v so_o your_o live_n and_o estate_n may_v be_v secure_v it_o be_v no_o great_a matter_n if_o the_o parliament_n please_v but_o to_o declare_v that_o all_o your_o parish_n be_v visible_a church_n that_o you_o may_v hold_v they_o entire_a and_o the_o people_n be_v enforce_v to_o pay_v you_o all_o your_o tithe_n oblation_n obvention_n mortuary_n and_o other_o due_n you_o will_v be_v satisfy_v and_o wait_v for_o further_a reformation_n when_o it_o may_v stand_v with_o your_o honour_n and_o profit_n and_o upon_o that_o condition_n you_o will_v submit_v to_o the_o present_a government_n of_o the_o commonwealth_n but_o if_o your_o interest_n in_o these_o thing_n be_v interrupt_v or_o in_o danger_n you_o know_v no_o other_o way_n to_o secure_v they_o but_o by_o settle_v this_o government_n and_o this_o be_v the_o mark_n at_o which_o you_o shoot_v take_v but_o a_o view_n of_o those_o place_n your_o own_o parish_n for_o one_o where_o the_o elder_n be_v choose_v do_v they_o serve_v for_o any_o thing_n but_o cipher_n or_o do_v you_o and_o they_o act_v any_o thing_n towards_o reformation_n but_o mere_o to_o this_o end_n and_o purpose_n pr._n i_o do_v confess_v if_o the_o church_n be_v equal_a or_o independent_a so_o there_o be_v government_n as_o well_o in_o church_n as_o commonwealth_n and_o other_o thing_n in_o order_n it_o may_v be_v well_o and_o where_o the_o elder_n be_v choose_v if_o reformation_n go_v not_o on_o it_o be_v because_o the_o elder_n refuse_v to_o act_v or_o join_v with_o the_o minister_n ph._n i_o confess_v i_o know_v some_o nominate_v for_o elder_n who_o make_v scruple_n to_o join_v with_o you_o in_o your_o business_n haply_o because_o they_o have_v find_v out_o your_o deceit_n which_o be_v mere_o to_o make_v a_o show_n of_o reformation_n but_o your_o chief_a end_n be_v the_o secure_v your_o live_n pr._n that_o be_v not_o the_o cause_n of_o their_o refusal_n it_o be_v because_o the_o parliament_n do_v not_o arm_v they_o with_o power_n to_o execute_v their_o office_n and_o compel_v obedience_n to_o their_o injunction_n as_o be_v fit_a for_o ecclesiastical_a magistrate_n ph._n if_o your_o proceed_n be_v of_o god_n you_o will_v not_o need_v the_o secular_a power_n to_o compel_v to_o obedience_n such_o as_o be_v within_o the_o church_n and_o for_o those_o which_o be_v without_o you_o have_v nothing_o to_o do_v with_o they_o the_o censure_n of_o the_o church_n be_v god_n ordinance_n for_o that_o end_n and_o be_v most_o effectual_a but_o for_o that_o compulsive_a power_n you_o speak_v of_o it_o savour_v of_o the_o tyranny_n of_o antichrist_n and_o so_o do_v your_o title_n of_o ecclesiastical_a magistrate_n which_o title_n i_o have_v not_o hear_v
use_v by_o any_o orthodox_n minister_n since_o the_o lord_n bishop_n those_o popish_a ecclesiastical_a magistrate_n be_v cashier_v who_o be_v indeed_o neither_o magistrate_n nor_o minister_n but_o like_o the_o pope_n between_o both_o pr._n i_o confess_v the_o elder_n former_o choose_v some_o year_n since_o in_o my_o parish_n have_v refuse_v to_o act_v to_o my_o great_a grief_n but_o now_o late_o i_o myself_o and_o the_o churchwarden_n have_v nominate_v other_o and_o the_o parish_n have_v assent_v to_o the_o choice_n and_o although_o the_o person_n choose_v will_v not_o take_v upon_o they_o the_o office_n of_o the_o eldership_n yet_o they_o have_v assent_v to_o join_v with_o i_o in_o debar_v the_o scandalous_a and_o profane_a from_o the_o lord_n table_n which_o be_v a_o chief_a point_n of_o reformation_n and_o i_o rejoice_v much_o in_o it_o ph._n how_o do_v you_o prevail_v to_o bring_v the_o business_n so_o far_o pr._n i_o have_v find_v some_o difficulty_n in_o it_o but_o that_o at_o last_o i_o give_v the_o honest_a party_n who_o best_o like_v our_o proceed_n good_a satisfaction_n and_o so_o the_o choice_n be_v very_o free_a and_o unanimous_a none_o oppose_v ph._n how_o be_v that_o possible_a see_v all_o the_o people_n within_o your_o parish_n like_v not_o of_o your_o proceed_n how_o come_v it_o to_o pass_v that_o none_o declare_v against_o it_o pr._n i_o do_v confess_v some_o few_o there_o be_v in_o my_o parish_n who_o i_o know_v to_o be_v of_o contrary_a judgement_n and_o some_o stick_v not_o to_o say_v our_o proceed_n be_v antichristian_a and_o have_v no_o foundation_n in_o the_o word_n of_o god_n but_o i_o take_v a_o course_n to_o have_v all_o such_o absent_a when_o the_o matter_n be_v debate_v and_o at_o the_o choice_n of_o those_o assistant_n ph._n what_o course_n do_v you_o take_v i_o desire_v to_o know_v for_o i_o have_v hear_v you_o censure_v for_o that_o business_n pr._n first_o i_o confer_v with_o the_o wealthy_a best_a and_o most_o lead_a man_n in_o my_o parish_n before_o i_o come_v to_o the_o choice_n some_o in_o private_a and_o some_o in_o company_n with_o other_o at_o several_a meeting_n and_o give_v they_o satisfaction_n and_o these_o i_o know_v will_v draw_v the_o most_o of_o the_o common_a sort_n and_o for_o the_o rest_n who_o i_o know_v i_o can_v not_o convince_v i_o warn_v they_o public_o in_o the_o church_n to_o absent_v themselves_o and_o by_o message_n private_o i_o desire_v such_o as_o i_o think_v will_v oppose_v to_o forbear_v to_o hinder_v we_o in_o that_o business_n and_o by_o this_o mean_n and_o by_o tell_v the_o man_n who_o be_v to_o be_v choose_v that_o they_o shall_v only_o assist_v i_o in_o keep_v the_o scandalous_a and_o ignorant_a from_o the_o communion_n and_o do_v nothing_o else_o they_o assent_v and_o i_o hope_v whll_o cheerful_o join_v with_o i_o in_o that_o work_n ph._n now_o do_v you_o think_v this_o be_v a_o sufficient_a reformation_n pr._n it_o be_v a_o principal_a part_n thereof_o we_o must_v wait_v until_o we_o can_v bring_v on_o the_o rest_n ph._n it_o seem_v there_o your_o pretend_a elder_n be_v no_o elder_n but_o assistant_n i_o be_o sorry_a you_o have_v show_v yourself_o so_o bold_a as_o to_o set_v up_o a_o new_a office_n in_o your_o pretend_a parish_n church_n show_v i_o where_o ever_o any_o man_n pretend_v to_o be_v a_o minister_n of_o christ_n by_o himself_o or_o with_o two_o three_o or_o four_o more_o usurp_v that_o power_n over_o a_o thousand_o person_n as_o you_o and_o your_o new_a fashion_n elder_n if_o they_o be_v rule_v by_o you_o intend_v to_o do_v i_o confess_v in_o the_o popish_a congregation_n and_o late_o here_o in_o england_n the_o same_o be_v practise_v the_o bishop_n or_o his_o chancellor_n with_o a_o presbyter_n or_o minister_n do_v excommunicate_a or_o debar_v from_o the_o sacrament_n but_o in_o worst_a time_n no_o man_n can_v be_v suspend_v without_o a_o presbyter_n join_v in_o that_o act_n and_o the_o churchwarden_n which_o be_v yet_o in_o request_n be_v assistant_n to_o the_o priest_n as_o your_o new_a fashion_n elder_n be_v and_o both_o alike_o keep_v christ_n out_o of_o his_o kingdom_n and_o so_o most_o suitable_a to_o your_o parish_n church_n which_o be_v not_o fit_a for_o lawful_a elder_n no_o more_o than_o they_o be_v capable_a of_o lawful_a minister_n pr._n i_o have_v erect_v no_o new_a office_n but_o the_o same_o which_o the_o scripture_n hold_v forth_o only_o their_o power_n be_v limit_v by_o mutual_a assent_n of_o they_o and_o the_o minister_n and_o for_o the_o exercise_n of_o that_o power_n in_o keep_v the_o scandalous_a and_o profane_a from_o the_o sacrament_n it_o be_v include_v within_o and_o be_v part_n of_o their_o office_n mat._n 18.17_o where_o the_o church_n signify_v the_o minister_n and_o elder_n who_o be_v the_o representative_a church_n for_o the_o rest_n it_o be_v answer_v before_o ph._n that_o question_n concern_v the_o church_n i_o will_v not_o enter_v into_o but_o leave_v it_o to_o the_o learned_a who_o have_v sufficient_o discuss_v it_o but_o for_o my_o part_n i_o be_o confident_a no_o such_o construction_n can_v be_v make_v of_o that_o place_n for_o the_o church_n always_o signify_v the_o whole_a body_n minister_n and_o people_n or_o the_o member_n distinct_a from_o the_o officer_n pr._n this_o question_n be_v one_o of_o the_o principle_n upon_o which_o all_o the_o controversy_n between_o we_o and_o the_o independent_o be_v found_v i_o shall_v whole_o wave_v you_o you_o have_v hear_v my_o opinion_n in_o public_a to_o which_o i_o adhere_v and_o shall_v do_v until_o i_o see_v better_a cause_n to_o alter_v my_o judgement_n ph._n let_v that_o pass_n but_o what_o be_v the_o reason_n why_o you_o carry_v the_o business_n of_o choose_v your_o pretend_a elder_n so_o clandestine_o and_o with_o such_o policy_n without_o hear_v other_o man_n opinion_n who_o be_v of_o contrary_a judgement_n pr._n to_o tell_v you_o the_o truth_n i_o fear_v opposition_n and_o that_o the_o work_n may_v be_v 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that_o which_o the_o bishop_n never_o allow_v nor_o do_v your_o brethren_n of_o the_o province_n of_o london_n approve_v thereof_o but_o be_v this_o all_o you_o do_v i_o do_v suppose_v you_o and_o your_o elder_n shall_v have_v inform_v your_o selve_v whither_o such_o as_o intend_v to_o communicate_v have_v set_v up_o christ_n in_o their_o family_n and_o place_n in_o the_o exercise_n of_o religion_n and_o have_v show_v forth_o by_o their_o conversation_n the_o sign_n of_o faith_n and_o repentance_n these_o thing_n be_v necessary_a for_o all_o communicant_n ph._n for_o the_o life_n of_o the_o communicant_o they_o be_v better_o know_v to_o other_o then_o to_o i_o and_o for_o my_o part_n i_o shall_v not_o take_v notice_n of_o they_o but_o do_v desire_n that_o those_o who_o be_v privy_a to_o such_o offence_n as_o may_v just_o debar_v the_o receiver_n from_o the_o sacrament_n will_v make_v it_o know_v to_o i_o and_o i_o shall_v acquaint_v the_o church_n viz_o the_o elder_n with_o it_o and_o 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the_o continuance_n of_o the_o old_a idolatrous_a babel_n which_o yet_o together_o with_o all_o your_o device_n will_v ere_o long_o come_v to_o ruin_v pr._n nothing_o be_v perfect_a when_o its_o first_o bring_v forth_o what_o ever_o you_o think_v i_o conceive_v this_o to_o be_v a_o good_a begin_n of_o reformation_n and_o i_o hope_v we_o shall_v proceed_v in_o it_o to_o more_o perfection_n but_o touch_v the_o reformation_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n i_o never_o expect_v any_o they_o be_v appoint_v to_o destruction_n these_o be_v but_o the_o discouragement_n of_o you_o and_o other_o who_o oppose_v the_o set_n up_o of_o all_o government_n in_o the_o church_n ph._n i_o have_v often_o tell_v you_o we_o do_v not_o oppose_v all_o government_n we_o will_v only_o have_v this_o building_n demolish_v that_o a_o better_a may_v be_v set_v up_o in_o the_o room_n of_o it_o pr._n what_o course_n will_v you_o have_v for_o preach_v the_o gospel_n if_o the_o present_a ministry_n shall_v be_v remove_v and_o the_o church_n disband_v ph._n without_o doubt_v the_o parliament_n see_v how_o that_o may_v be_v provide_v for_o for_o my_o part_n i_o wish_v that_o all_o the_o parish_n be_v dissolve_v as_o to_o the_o matter_n of_o the_o church_n and_o all_o the_o tithe_n belong_v to_o the_o late_a bishop_n arch-bishop_n dean_n and_o chapter_n donative_n parson_n and_o vicar_n be_v release_v or_o sell_v at_o a_o reasonable_a rate_n to_o the_o owner_n of_o the_o land_n out_o of_o which_o they_o arise_v and_o these_o probable_o without_o any_o addition_n may_v raise_v a_o sufficient_a revenue_n for_o maintenance_n of_o a_o godly_a and_o able_a ministry_n through_o this_o whole_a commonwealth_n to_o preach_v the_o gospel_n to_o all_o who_o will_v hear_v the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o all_o who_o shall_v be_v find_v worthy_a may_v be_v employ_v pr._n what_o will_v this_o conduce_v for_o reformation_n ph._n by_o this_o mean_v this_o plant_n i_o mean_v this_o popish_a order_n of_o ministry_n who_o unjustlie_o usurp_v authority_n over_o the_o body_n soul_n and_o state_n of_o man_n call_v they_o their_o church_n their_o parish_n their_o flock_n their_o sheep_n and_o their_o tithe_n as_o if_o all_o be_v they_o nothing_o christ_n not_o be_v of_o the_o plant_n of_o our_o heavenly_a father_n will_v be_v pluck_v up_o which_o be_v remove_v the_o faithful_a will_v have_v liberty_n and_o opportunity_n to_o separate_v themselves_o from_o the_o wicked_a and_o profane_a and_o be_v gather_v unto_o christ_n under_o true_a pastor_n and_o church-officer_n who_o will_v lead_v they_o in_o the_o path_n of_o righteousness_n and_o truth_n where_o be_v associate_v together_o in_o church-fellowship_n they_o will_v be_v more_o reform_v then_o ever_o can_v be_v expect_v from_o any_o company_n in_o any_o parish-congregation_n pr._n well_o i_o now_o full_o perceive_v what_o your_o intent_n be_v in_o a_o word_n you_o set_v yourself_o to_o cast_v contempt_n upon_o our_o learned_a and_o reverend_a 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reader_n thou_o may_v perceive_v by_o some_o passage_n in_o this_o dialogue_n that_o the_o same_o be_v write_v some_o month_n if_o not_o year_n since_o which_o be_v true_a and_o the_o author_n be_v resolve_v find_v it_o difficult_a to_o get_v it_o pass_v the_o press_n to_o bury_v it_o in_o oblivion_n hope_v also_o that_o the_o pretend_a clergy_n of_o the_o land_n will_v have_v consider_v their_o way_n and_o be_v wise_a but_o find_v the_o folly_n of_o some_o of_o they_o through_o their_o pride_n and_o covetousness_n to_o grow_v into_o madness_n this_o messenger_n be_v send_v to_o stop_v their_o way_n farewell_n finis_fw-la