to order and administer the affaires of Gods House signifying the territory or circuit of a Bishop So Creet may be well called the Diocese of Bishop Titus having under his inspection as t is plaine the Elders of the Cities there W. The Cities were not under Titus his Government he was not a Ruler of the Iland B. He was Ruler of all the Christians I mean onely them through all the Cities and Country Tr. But Titus was an Evangelist Therefore no Bishop B. I deny the Consequence He was an Evangelist while he went about Preaching and Planting the Gospell And he was the Bishop of Creet when he was fixed there by Paul to Ordaine Elders and put in order the things that were wanting H. We find Titus in other places beside Creet and Bishops of those times were not non-residents Therefore he was not Bishop of Creet B. Bishops may lawfully be and were antiently non-resident for some time to wit while they attend the business of Religion abroad and procured the greater good of the Church In which time of their absence their places are supplyed at home by their Deputies Tr. But Sir I pray consider Titus was an extraordinary Governor and therefore no Diocesan Bishop And you dispute fallaciously unless you put in the word Ordinary B. I say he was a Diocesan Bishop or if you will rather an Archbishop For I conceive the Elders of every City to have been Bishops and Overseers of severall Ministers and Congregations therefore he was an ordinary Governour Thus I argue He that ordaines Elders and orders the things in the Churches is an Ordinary But Titus ordaines Elders and orders things in the Churches Therefore Titus is an Ordinary Tr. But I mean he was called to that office in an extraordinary manner B. No neither He was called in the same manner as Timothy and others by Imposition of the Presbytery Therefore He was called in an Ordinary manner Col. A. Timothy was called saith Paul in another place by the laying on of his hands B. Noble Sir you say very true and the places are easily reconciled thus Divers Elders laid hands on Timothy among whom S. Paul probably was chief H. And was Paul too a Diocesan Bishop B. The Apostles common Diocese was the whole world which by agreement they divided among them and S. Paul was especially the Apostle of the Gentiles But in the Apostles I grant some things are extraordinary Tr. Pray make it out cleerely that Titus his case is not extraordinary otherwise you dispute fallaciously B. Truth needs no sophistry Thus I make it out The office that is to continue in the Church and to be succeeded in through following ages is no extraordinary office But this office of Titus is such Therefore c. H. What is it to continue to the worlds end B. Yes to the worlds end For it is Christs Promise I am with you alway even to the end of the world Mat. ult ult What say you to my argument Ordination and Jurisdiction are Offices or Powers needfull to the Church in all Ages This Office of Power or Titus was Ordination and Jurisdiction Therefore this Office of Titus is needfull to the Church in all Ages and therefore no extraordinary Office And my Brethren I would have you to know we are able to shew out of the best Records and Monuments of the Antient Church that there was a succession to the Apostolicall Bishops in these parts of their Office And the Catalogues of succeeding Bishops in severall Apostolicall Sees are yet extant And the Fathers and Councills and Ecclesiasticall Histories come in here with undeniable evidence that Diocesan Bishops are successors of the Apostles in the Government of Churches H. See godly Brethren the subtilty of this man He will not contain himself within the Holy Scripture but tells us of Fathers and Ecclesiasticall Stories and human Authorities B. Who succeeded in the government of Churches after the Apostles we must learn out of the writings of the next Ages And I tell you not only Fathers and Church-story but all other good learning is requisite in a compleat Divine Mark this you bold unlearned new-speakers and expounders of Scripture Mark it and remember it well And for the question of Church-government especially it is impossible to find a better way to understand the Scripture than by the practice of the primitive times of the Christian Church H. Expound Scripture by the practice of the primitive Church Do ye heare him brethren as if Scripture needed the help of the Church We thought we should finde him enclining to Popery B. I detest all Popery charge me not so ignorantly Upon my life I will make it good by the judgment of the most learned and sound Protestants that the practice of the primitive Church is a great light to Scripture But this requires the searching of Books which at your lesure I should be glad to shew you W. Protestants Whom do you mean by Protestants B. I mean those that protest against the Errors Innovations of the Roman Church in latter times and endeavour to reform Religion according to the Scripture and the primitive pattern H. You see he takes in the practice of the Primitive Church again B. I do and must and thus I argue That Government which in the primitive Ages took place in the Churches planted by the Apostles is the Apostolicall and Scripture Government But the Government of Diocesan Bishops took place in the Churches planted by the Apostles Therefore the Government of the Diocesan Bishops is the Apostolicall and Scripture Government Now let me see who will answer me W. Antichrist Antichrist was working betimes B. Whether it be Antichristianism to establish or to over throw the Function of Bishops let all considering men judge by the Premises W. But why do you take in any thing else with Scripture as if that alone were not sufficient for us H. Yea Scripture Scripture we are contented with Scripture B. Give me leave to explain my self to All and I entreat you Harken The Scriptures perfection I do thankfully acknowledge but the things conteined in the Scripture are some of them conteined in it plainly and expresly to be apprehended by every Reader other things are conteined there implicitely virtually and so as there is need of many helps to make our deductions thence And for the Scripture-government I know no better light to shew it than the practice of the Antient Church I argue thus They that have commended to us the very Books of Scripture are fittest to give us the sense of them especially in point of Government But the Antient Church hath commended to us the very books of Scripture Therefore the Antient Church is fittest to give us the sense c. And I pray Mr. W. how will you prove that the Scripture is the Word of God W. I know it by the Testimony of the Holy Spirit in me B. But how will you convince another that will not believe your
use for advice and counsell not for goverment or for the exercise of any jurisdiction B. Then as I conceive your modell is very imperfect and me thinks your Ministers in their severall Congregations look like so many little Popes For the Pope is the Great Independent and will allow of no Appeal from him no more will you H. Pray Mr. B. quiet the People B. I beseech you good people I beseech you attend with silence and patience Tr. Where presently followes Execution there can be no appeal But after the sentence of the Congregation presently followes execution If he hear not the Church let him c. Therefore from the sentence of the Congregation can be no appeal B. Well argued I repeat Where presently c. I answer first to the major or first proposition There may be an appeal after execution of the sentence of the Congregation In your own way may not the wronged person appeal from you to your selves In the Presbyterian you know there lyes an appeal to the Classis but that I take not on me to maintain I know no power to excommunicate but Episcopall Tr. Then it seems by you the Bishop is the Church and the sole judge of the Congregations B. Not so neither Hear my Answer I pray and do not you ignorant fellowes laugh at that you do not understand The Bishop is considered either Sole or alone or as he sits in Cathedra crowned with Presbyters In this later sense I humbly conceive the Bishop is or ought to be Governour of the Congregations within his Diocese And such Bishops we can shew innumerable in the ancient Records of the Catholique Church I am very sorry these Gentlemen are so ill read in good Books of our own English Divines as to deny a truth shining so bright upon them Mr. Tr. have you not seen the learned Thorndike of the primitive Government c Tr. We cleave to the Scripture and call you to the foresaid text Can you shew one place where Church is taken for the Bishop and his Presbyters B. What if I cannot The Authority of the antient Fathers is sufficient for the present to commend my interpretation to such as reverence Antiquity But because I would gladly please you I will offer another sense of the words in question which will come neer to you but is not fully yours That is after the first admonition by one and the second before two or three it is the mind of Christ that a greater number should be made acquainted with the business tell it to the Many for the shaming of the offendor as the Apostle somewhere speaks the words may the more probably be taken in this sense because as yet the Disciples were not setled under a Church-government and so there remaining no more to be done after this shaming of the offendor before a good number of Fellow-Christians i. e. the Church he was to be henceforth till his amendment accounted as a heathen and might be prosecuted for any offence before the heathen Tribunalls Which prosecution was not lawfull against those that would hear the Church See 1 Cor. 6. But this will do you no pleasure unless that which followes in the next verse belong unto the Congregation too but that cannot be if Christ spake the words to his Apostles and gave the Keys and Power of Binding and Loosing to them and their successors as I believe he did Consider of it See the learned Dr. Hammond of binding and loosing To. Give me leave to add somewhat here in confirmation of what was last said Scripture you know gives light to Scripture Christ elswhere saith to Peter that he would give the Keys to him Matth. 16. 19. And John 20. 21 21 23. he speaketh to his Disciples and thus enstateth them in that power Then said Jesus to them again Peace be unto you as my Father hath sent me even so send I you And when he had said this he breathed on them and said unto them Receive yee the holy Ghost whosoever sins yee remit they are remitted unto them and whosoever sins ye retain they are retained these are the solemn words of Ordination W. The words are spoken to Peter and to the Disciples as they were Christian professors and so they do belong to our people not as they were appointed by Christ to be Governours of his Church To. The words signify a power committed to them which they used as Governours 't is plain and which they left to the Bishops their Successours Tr. The Apostles had no successors being gifted with a miraculous power B. The Apostles are to be considered in two respects either as planters of the Churches and to that purpose endued with a miraculous power to make way for and to give confirmation to the Gospel or else as Governours of the Churches invested with the ordinary lasting power of ordaining Elders of binding and loosing and of setting things in order herein who were their Successors you may see if you will inform your selves in the book of binding and loosing and in the Latin dissertations against Blondellus Pray take it not ill that we often assert this it is of such concernence that with this truth the Ministers of England must either stand or fall We speak not for Bishops to be Lords of Lands but Fathers of the Church You must all mark that Tr. The difference 'twixt us appears plainly you are for Bishops which you call the Primitive Apostolical Bishops and in them you place the power which Christ hath left to his Church We are for the Bodies of Congregations which we say are under no superiors neither Bishops nor Presbyters but absolute and independent in respect of man and immediatly under Jesus Christ Col. A. Bishops and Presbyters are all one in the New Testament namely Acts 20. 17. Paul sent to Ephesus and called the Elders of the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and v. 28. the holy Ghost hath made you overseers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Therefore Presbyters and Bishops are all one P. Noble Sir I answer Bishops in the new Testament are also called Presbyters but they are more than those we now call Presbyters who are to be ordained and governed by the Bishops Any Presbyter may be called Bishop or Overseer of his own Parish but those we eminently stile Bishops now who are Bishops or Overseers and Rulers of those Parish Bishops or Presbyters The Presbyters St. Paul sent for from Ephesus were properly Bishops Tr. No Hear my Argument The Church of Ephesus was but one Congregation I prove it out of Eph. 2. the two last verses In whom Jesus Christ all the building fitly framed together c. A building fitly framed together is but one Congregation But the Church of Ephesus was a building fitly framed together Therefore c. B. To the Major Not only one single Congregation but many united under one Bishop may be so called And that Ephesus was not a single Independent Congregation but a
actionem Haec etiamsi subtilius disputari possunt tamen ad regendas mentes hoe modo propositâ— accommodata videntur Accusemus ipsi nostram voluntatem cum labimur non quaeramus in Dei consilio causam contra eam nos erigamus sciamus Deum velle opitulari adesse luctantibus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inquit Basilius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Excitetur ergo cura in nobis laudetur Dei immensa bonit as quum promisit auxilium praestat Haec non scribo ut tibi tradam quasi dictata homini eruditissimo ac peritissimo exercitiorum pietatis Et quidem scio haec cum tuis congruere sed sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad usum accommodata Haec Bonnae scripsi apud D. Bucerum cum eo accersitus est ut Ecclesias in Diocesi Coloniensi emendaret Haec consilia Deo piis votis commendes Philippus Melancthon Of the power of the Congregation LEt not any man think now that the Apostle communicateth this power with the Congregation of the Church of Corinth when he writeth to them 1 Cor. 5. 4 5. being assembled with his spirit to deliver the incestuous person to Satan For it is plain that the sentence is given by the Apostle vers 3. where he writeth For I verily as absent in body but present in spirit have judged already as though I were present concerning him that hath so done this deed And to cause this proceeding to be the better digested he hath vouched his power in the end of the chapter afore verse 18. Now some are puffed up as though I would not come unto you but I will come unto you shortly if the Lord will and will know not the speech of them that are puffed up but the power What will you shall I come unto you with a rod or with the spirit of meekness Which power otherwhiles he setteth before them in case of their disobedience And therefore it must be acknowledged that he writeth to them to see his sentence published ratified and executed which the Presbyters there had either neglected to do or perhaps were not able to bring the people under the Discipline of Christ's Kingdom which must needs oblige the Apostle to interpose And this without doubt is the reason why the Apostle writeth in these terms 1 Cor. 5. 12. For what have I to do to judge those that are without do not ye judge those that are within speaking to the Church in general though the sentence passed by Bishop and Presbyters because matters were censured in the Congregation and executed by the people And thus the practice of that time giveth a reason without straining why our Lord seemeth to refer these matters to the Congregation when he saith Tell it to the Church because they passed at their Assemblies though under Censure of Bishop and Presbyters And great reason there is why this regard should be had by the Apostle and by the Church afterwards to the People because the Church being a meer spiritual Commonwealth and not indued with temporal strength so much as to execute those sentences which the power of the Keys given by Christ obligeth it to inflict always setting wide that power of working miracles which was in the Apostle upon which some think he reflecteth in some passages of those Epistles requisite it was then the Congregation should be satisfied of the course of those proceedings which must come into execution and effect by their voluntary submission to the will of God and the office of his Ministers And as the matter is now that things of this nature proceed not upon mens private Consciences and Judgments in particulars but upon general rules of Common right requisite it is that the Common-wealth have satisfaction of those Laws according to which the Church now must proceed in their censures it being acknowledged that they cannot proceed with effect but by vertue of those Laws that are put in force by the secular Arm. Mr. Thorndike of Prim. Government p. 144. Reader Take for a Conclusion of all at this time that too pertinent Relation which you may read more at large in Mr. Hookers preface collected out of Guy de bres Of the Errour of the Anabaptists THey so much affected to cross the ordinary custome in every thing that when other mens use was to put on better attire they would be sure to shew themselves openly abroad in worse the ordinary names of the days in the week they thought it a kind of prophaness to use and therefore accustomed themselves to make no other distinction than by numbers The first second third day-They boldly avouched that themselves only had the truth and that since the Apostles lived the same was never before in all points sincerely taught Other disputation against their opinions than only by allegation of Scripture they would not hear besides it they thought no other writings in the world should be studyed in so much as one of their great Prophets exhorting them to cast away all respects unto human writings so far to his motion they condescended that as many as had any Books save the Holy Bible in their custody they brought and set them publickly on fire When they and their Bibles were alone together what strange phantasticall opinion soever at any time enterd into their heads their use was to think the Spirit taught it them Their own Ministers they highly magnified as men whose vocation was from God the rest their manner was to term disdainfully Scribes and Pharisees to account their calling an human creature and to detein the people as much as might be from heâ—ring thâ—m The custome of using God-fathers and God-mothers at Christnings they scorned Baptizing of Infants although confest by themselves to have been continued ever sithence the Apostles own times yet they altogether condemned The Eucharist they received pretending our Lord and Saviours example after Supper and for avoiding all those impieties which have been grounded upon the mysticall words of Christ This is my Body This is my Blood they thought it not safe to mention either body or blood in that Sacrament but rather to abrogate both and to use no words but these Take eate declare the death of our Lord Drink shew forth our Lords Death In rites and ceremonies their profession was hatred of all conformity with the Church of Rome for which cause they would rather endure any torment than observe the solemn Festivals which others did in as much as Antichrist they said was the first inventor of them The pretended end of their civil reformation was that Christ might have dominion over all that all Crowns and Scepters might be thrown down at his feet that no other might reign over Christian men but He no regiment to keep them in awe but his disciplin amongst them no sword at all to be carried besides his the sword of spirituall excommunication They laboured to bring in Community of goods because Christ by his
Baptism and from the Orders and Ministry of that Church wherein they were Baptized than to charge the Worship thereof as corrupt when the corruption is only in themselves 2. Whether any People can have enjoyment of all Gods holy Ordinances that have not any Minister among them Ordained after the Apostolical manner 3. Whether Ecclesiastical Power be grounded in the People and not derived from Christ and his Apostles by a succession of Church-men 4. Whether it be not Schism to cast off obedience to the antient Apostolical Government of the Church And to be of these new Congregations to communicate in Schism 5. Whether Schism be not a great crime when as every Christian is bound upon his Salvation to maintain the Unity of the Church 6. Whether any example or pattern of a Congregation without dependence upon some higher Ecclesiastical power can be found in any Age till this last 7. Whether mutual Admonition and all that is good in this Covenant may not be practised keeping our dependence still on the lawful Guides of the Church 8. Whether they can be said to walk humbly and inoffensively toward All that take upon them to condemn the whole Church as corrupt and renounce Communion with all that joyn not in this Covenant Another Letter to Master H. about the same time SIR ALthough I have promised to write no more Letters such as the former wherein it seems you have found some dislike that you will not tell me of nor will I oppose your new Church-State any further than in modesty and charity I may yet having missed of your Company to day and having understood by Mr. Tr. that you have had a report brought you concerning your Orders and Me I desire you not to believe it before you hear me and the like I desire concerning any Report you hear of my Preaching One thing more Whereas I am informed that the last Lords Day you were much in confuting my Interpretation of 1 Cor. 5. 11. and brought consent of Interpreters that no not to eat is not as I understand it spoken of common eating I have here transcribed Diotat's note No not to eat Namely in common course of life shun all manner of voluntary sweet and friendly conversation with him The same shunning of Infidels was not required and therefore you must acknowledge your proof weak They might eat with Infidels Therefore much more with Christians I will trouble you with his note upon v. 4. When ye are He speaks to the Pastors and Conductors of the Church The meaning is Being gathered together in Ecclesiastical judgement having this my Declaration c. Whereby you plainly see your foundation for an Independent Congregation taken away Pray Sir weigh this and if you please the former Letter with the same quietness of mind wherewith I wrote it and return me two lines of Answer that I may know my friendly Office is not lost and take you the same liberty of correcting me who am your Christian Friend No Answer was returned to the former Letters and so there was a Cessation till the next year But in the mean time this following Paper came to my hands supposed to be written by Mr. B. out of a desire to have somewhat done in the way of Reformation by the neighbouring Ministers to take away somewhat from the grievous Criminations Mr. H. and such others usually cast upon them as hinderers of piety and hardeners of the people in their Sins This Paper I believe the pious Reader will take kindly from me intitled A Reformed Congregation 1. WE do in thankfulness acknowledge the great Mercy of God in not giving us up utterly to confusion and desolation but preserving us under any Government wherein Law and Justice is so administred that we may if we be not wanting to our selves lead a quiet and a godly life And we content our selves with the present State not seditiously seeking after changes 2. We do much honour the Church of England wherein we have been Baptized and bred and notwithstanding any small faults in the Constitution and Disciplin or great faults in the late Officers and Governours thereof we insist upon the same Grounds and adhere to the same Church as it was in Queen Elizabeths time defended against the Roman by Jewels Apology and against the Innovators by Hookers Ecclesiastical Politie 3. Yet do we not think all the forms and rites thereof so necessary but that we may as discretion shall require omit them upon occasion and in their stead without coutempt of the former use some that are different and serve well for order and decency in the service of God 4. To rest in any forms and rites whatsoever and to serve God only externally we hold a very imperfect and unacceptable serving of God who requireth chiefly the heart But as God hath made both our Bodies and Souls and Christ hath redeemed Both so do we desire to glorifie Him with Both. And as we would express the power of Godliness in our lives so would we also preserve a decent form of it such as is for edification in our Assemblies 5. The Litury of the Church of England for the substance and main of it we heartily embrace but in the use thereof shall not retain any thing offensive and opposite to the present Government but in all our Religious exercises shall be as careful to shew our due submission to the Magistrate which all good Christians have ever done as our reverence to the Antient Church 6. That Sum of Religion contained in the old Catechism we do especially commend for the education of Children And we shall then think our selves good proficients in Christianity when with the profession of the necessary Articles of Faith and due participation of the Sacraments and frequency of the Word and Prayer we joyn the careful daily practice of Gods moral Law and of those excellent Evangelical precepts of our only Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 7. Difference of opinions in lesser points and matters shall not make a breach in our Charity and Communion with one another Nor shall we for any such difference be alienated so much or estranged from any Christians in the whole world but that we shall be glad to communicate and close with them in all that is good and lawful 8. That we may for the present supply the want of publick Church-Government as well as we can we resolve to put into more diligent practice that command of Christ concerning fraternal Admonition First by one in private then by two or three and lastly by the Church or Congregation or those that represent it And whosoever shall obstinately stand out against the last Admonition with such a one we will have nothing to do but avoid him so far as the Law of Nature and this Nation will permit 9. This our Congregation shall be guided by one or more lawful Ministers assisted with such Officers as our Necessities shall require and the Church by common consent shall elect
Spirit that the Scripture is divine Here you may make very good use of the Testimony of the next Ages that received it from the Apostles and gave it down to their Followers W. and H. Popery to depend upon the Testimony of the Church To. Since you are many at once upon one which is not fair give me leave to put in sometimes in behalf and for the case of the Respondent We say we depend upon the testimony of the Antient Church not of the now Roman Church The Roman Church is a very corrupt Church the Primitive times were far more pure W. What do you talk of Purity after the Apostles times Did not many Heresies creep in To. By this Argument you will condemn the Apostles times also for even then were not wanting Schismes and Heresies B. Will you leave this as it is and proceed to some farther Argument and come close to the business of the Sacrament I say it is lawfull for me to Minister the Sacrament in the Congregation at Sudeley H. Thus I proceed to shew that your calling is null therefore you cannot Minister Ministers that Prophane the holy things of the Lord their calling is null But many Parish Ministers prophane the holy things of the Lord Therefore their Calling is null B. You should say All Parish Ministers for you hold it is not lawful to Minister in any mixt Congregation and such you say are all Parish Churches But say neither All nor Many but apply the minor to me whom you have publikely in your Sermons condemned before you used the Christian wayes of more private Admonition and then I deny both your premises both Major and Minor both are false and Scandalous Neither doth the prophaning of Holy things null the Ministers calling nor have I prophaned the Holy things in the said Ministery H. First then I prove the major fully you that have Bibles Brethren pray turn to the places Ezek. 22. 26. 44. 13. B. What prove you thence H. That prophaning the Holy things nulls the Priesthood for they shall be no Priests unto me saith the Lord. B. I answer to the Text by distinguishing between the Order of a Priest and the Office of a Priest They shall be no Priests unto me here is a suspension from the Office and work of the Priests no nulling of the Priesthood it self W. Then it seems by you They were Priests and no Priests God saith They shall not you say they shall remain Priests To. He hath shewed you how They were Priests and no Priests in divers respects They were still of the Order and race of Priests they were not to officiate any more in the Priestly office God would not accept them he saith They shall be no Priests unto me Yet who knoweth but upon their repentance God might readmit them not by a new Consecration but by Absolution And so Ministers when they are restored after suspension are not new Ordained but only the Censures taken off Tr. Well you grant at last a removall and suspension from the office though the calling be not nulled And so you will confess you deserve to be removed from Officiating if you prophane the Holy Things of the Lord. B. I will grant that a Minister if he be so prophane ought not to officiate but I think the proceedings against a Minister must be tender and wary Receive not an accusation against an Elder without two or three witnesses Conviction must go before Censure and upon Repentance restauration followes And I refuse not to be so dealt with Tr. Proceed therefore and prove your minor that he doth prophane the holy things of the Lord. H. They that administer the Sacrament promiscuously to All do prophane But you so administer Therefore c. B. Your minor's false and Scandalous The Congregation of my hearers I will confess is mixt not so the Company of my Communicants Understand what my practice is After divers preparations when the Sacrament is to be administred I proclame All that are not prepared Depart You that are prepared Stay These after the departure of the rest I look upon as prepared in some measure and so I go on H. If you do administer the Sacrament to the unregenerate Tr. No no say thus to the ignorant and Prophane H. You Minister the Holy Sacrament to the ignorant and prophane B. You do well to prompt one another Prove it Or if you please I answer persons may be ignorant and prophane either in the eye of God that searcheth the secrets of the heart or in the eye of the Church that looks upon the outward appearance In the former sense some of us may be such we are not so in the latter Tr. Pray Mr. B. let me ask you Do you know every one that you Minister the Sacrament to B. I will give you an ingenuous answer I do not know every one Tr. O! how can you justify your self in this W. Why here 's a confession of the fault we lay to your charge you give the Sacrament you know not to whom We have done now H. We thank the Lord Brethren that the good work is so happily brought to a conclusion this day You hear what he confesseth he doth not know some of them who they are and yet he should know them to be visible Saints A good Shepheard knows his flock B. Hold a little my Masters and take me with you Have patience while I give in my Answer I do not know them and yet I do know them I know them not some of them by name I have no familiar acquaintance with them I do not know them in civil relations but I do know them and own them in a religious relation I know no hurt by them Tr. You Know no hurt by them Alas Alas poor creatures B. Hear me out I do not only know no hurt by them but I know much good by them their visible and cheerful profession of the true Christian Faith their reverent behaviour at their Prayers their humble Confession of Sins earnest desires of pardon hearty promises of new obedience An appearance of Faith and Repentance joyned with Charity and thankfulness satisfies me very well for the time till I find they do deceive me H. You are deceived with too good an opinion of them If I durst I could say somewhat against some particulars B. God forbid you should have hurt for telling any one a necessary truth For my part I think and hope the best of all that promise fair I Judge according to charity I know one may act the Saint to day and the Devil to morrow Let me tell you 't is the judgement of our Church after the Fathers that Christ delivered the Sacrament to Judas also who went out immediatly after to betray him and before that was discovered by his Master to be a Devill You will not grant this however you know Peter himself that was so zealous upon triall the very next day denied his Master yea denied him
etiam in scripturarum interpretationibus praesertim ubi plerique omnes consentiunt deflectere non audere toti Ecclesiae Christi ingenuè fateor Et postea Hoc ego ingenuè denuò profiteor talem esse meam conscientiam ut à veterum patrum sive dogmatibus sive scripturarum interpretationibus non facile nisi vel manifestis sacrarum literarum testimoniis vel necessariis consequentiis apertisque demonstrationibus convictus atque coactus discedere queam Sic exim acquiescit mea conscientia in hac ment is quiete cupio etiam mori Idem ad Cap. 25. QUid quòd in Ecclesiis etiam Protestantium non desunt reipsa Episcopi Archiepiscopi quos mutatis bonis Graecis nominibus in malè Latina vocant superintendentes generales superintendentes Sed ubi etiam neque illa vetera bona Graeca neque haec nova malè Latina nomina obtinent ibi tamen solent esse aliquot primarii penes quos fere tota est autoritas De nominibus ergo fuerit controversia verùm cum de rebus convenit quid de nominibus altercamur Idem in fine PRecor omnes Christianos per Dominum Jesum ut positis vanis privatorum hominum somniis positis etiam propriis carnis affectibus odiis inimicitiis amplexi verò certum ac salutarem veteris Ecclesiae doctrinam Christianamque dilectionem coeamus omnes in unam fidem sanctamque amicitiam sicut nobis quoque omnibus unus est Deus unus Mediator unum Baptisma una spes vocationis nostrae ad gloriam nominis Dei Ecclesiae aedificationem salutemque animorum nostrorum Citius enim quam putamus sistemur ante tribunal Christi ut referat unusquisque prout se gessit in corpore in hac vita quando post hanc vitam nulla spes veniae nullus resipiscentiae locus est Hooker in his Preface Sect. 4. A Very strange thing sure it were that such a Discipline as ye speak of should be taught by Christ and his Apostles in the word of God and no Church ever have found it out nor received it till this present time contrariwise the Government against which ye bend your selves be observed every where throughout all generations and ages of the Christian world no Church ever perceiving the word of God to be against it We require you to find out but one Church upon the face of the whole earth that hath been ordered by your Discipline or hath not been orderd by ours that is to say by Episcopal regiment sithence the time that the blessed Apostles were here conversant The same Sect. 6. AS for the Orders which are established sith equity and reason the Law of Nature God and man do all favour that which is in being till orderly judgement of decision be given against it it is but justice to exact of you and perverseness in you it should be to deny thereunto your willing obedience Not that I judge it a thing allowable for men to observe those Laws which in their hearts they are stedfastly perswaded to be against the Law of God but your perswasion in this case ye are all bound for the time to suspend and in otherwise doing ye offend against God by troubling his Church without any just or necessary cause The same Sect. 8. AGain it may justly be feared whether our English Nobility when the matter came in tryal would contentedly suffer themselves to be alwaies at the call and to stand to the sentence of a number of mean persons assisted with the presence of their poor teacher a man as sometimes it hapneth though better able to speak yet little or no whit apter to judge than the rest From whom be their dealings never so absurd unless it be by way of complaint to a Synod no appeal may be made unto any one of higher power in as much as the order of your Discipline admitteth no standing inequality of Courts no Spiritual Judge to have any ordinary Superior on earth but as many Supremacies as there are Parishes and several Congregations Neither is it altogether without cause that so many do fear the overthrow of all learning as a threatned sequel of this your intended Discipline For if the worlds preservation depend upon the multitude of the wise and of that sort the number hereafter be not likely to wax over great when that wherewith the Son of Syrach professeth himself at the heart grieved men of understanding are already so little set by how should their minds whom the love of so precious a Jewel filleth with secret jealousy even in regard of the least things which may any way hinder the flourishing estate thereof choose but misdoubt lest this Discipline which alwaies you match with Divine Doctrine as her natural and true Sister be found unto all kinds of knowledge a Stepmother seeing that the greatest worldly hopes which are proposed unto the chiefest kind of learning yee seek utterly to extirpate as weeds and have grounded your platform on such Propositions as do after a sort undermine those most renowned habitations where through the goodness of Almighty God all commendable Arts and Sciences are with exceeding great industry hitherto and so may they for ever continue studied proceeded in and profest To charge you as purposely bent to the overthrow of that wherein many of you have attained no small perfection were injurious Only therefore I wish that your selves did well consider how opposite certain your positions are c. Master Edward Leigh a dilligent Collector in his Body of Divinity P. 454 c. THe Socinians say Cum adhuc nova c. The Apostles had a call when the Gospel was newly published there needs not a Ministry now that the Gospel is generally taught and it is promised we shall be all taught of God If we should look for a Ministry where shall we find it Our Ministets were ordained by Bishops they by the Pope Therefore their Calling is Anti-Christian But That there is such an Institution of Christ and this to continue till the worlds end may be thus proved First there are some to whom the word of reconciliation is committed and not to others 1 Cor. 5. 18. Rom. 10. 15. there is a peculiar mission Men cannot Preach as the Embassadors of Christ unless sent Jo. 20. 21. Gal. 1. 1. Secondly because a special authority is committed to such by vertue of their office they have the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Is 22. 22. Mat. 16. 19. The Brownists say our Ministers are not rightly called into their offices because we received it from Rome Ans Not every thing ordained by Anti-Christ is forthwith to me rejected but only that which he doth qua Antichristus as he is Antichrist But Bishops were before ever Antichrist appeared in the world Brown the father of the Brownists was the first of note that did separate himself from the Church of England and said that we had no Church he meant a true Church But after he
went into France and being at Geneva he saw the Sabbath much prophaned and the wafer-cake given in the Sacrament instead of bread whereupon he began to think better of the Church of England and returning home he became Pastor of a Church in Northhampton-shire called Achurch The Church of Rome was a true Church the Reformed Churches separated from it becoming a false Church Though Ministers were ordained in the most corrupt estate of the Church of Rome yet if they forsake the corruptions of the Church of Rome they are true Ministers as the Church of Rome it self if it would cast off its Corruptions should be a true Church There is a double Calling necessary to a dispensor of the Mysteries of salvation Inward and Outward The Inward enableth men the Outward authorizeth them to discharge their sacred function Where there are Gifts if God encline the heart of the party to enter into the Ministry there is an inward Calling Yet this alone sufficeth not without an outward Calling either Ordinary or Extraordinary We are not now to expect extraordinary callings since Miracles are ceased The Ordinary calling is by the Imposition of the hands of the Presbytery Jer. 14. 14. 27. 15. Rom. 10. 5. No other Ordination was heard of for fifteen hundred years or at lest approved of Dr. Featly's distinction of Clergy and Laity In the Reformed Churches of France and Geneva the people give no voice in the Election of Ministers but are only permitted if they have any causes of dislike or exception to make them known to the pastors guides of the Church and the power of judging such exceptions resteth wholly in them When one Morelius a phantasticall companion sought to bring the Elections of Bishops and Ministers to be popular and swayed by the most voices of the people he was condemned by all the Synods in France as Beza sheweth Epist 83. In Scripture we find Election and Ordination frequently distinguished not only as distinct acts but oft-times in distinct hands Deut. 1. 13. The people chuse them who shall be Rulers but Moses makes them Rulers Act. 6. 3. The people chuse the Apostles appoint the Deacons The chusing of a person to an office is not the authorizing of the person elected but the designation of the person to be authorized See Mr. Gillesp Miscell e. 4. The Socinians acknowledge it is fit for Order and Decency to retain Ordination in the Church Peradventure many of the Sectaries of this time will hardly acknowledge thus much Some think that the Ceremony of laying on of hands may be omitted sometimes we must be tyed to example in the lest gesture though not prescribed and yet men presume to dispense in a circumstance prescribed Tit. 1. 5. Timothy was ordained by laying on of hands and enjoyned to lay hands on others in their Ordination 1 Tim. 5. 22. Thus were the Deacons ordained Act. 6. 6. and thus were Paul and Barnabas set apart for the execution of their calling Act. 13. 3. Augustin and Chrysostom preached every day in the week and year at least once or twice without fail Ye heard yesterday yee shall hear to morrow is common in their Tractates and Homilies Mr. Bull 's trial of Separat p. 81. The Papists by way of scoff called the Evangelical Ministers praedicantici Wheras Paul judged preaching his chief Office and would not baptize lest it should be an impediment Bellarmine and the Councill of Trent style preaching praecipuum Episcopi officium The Question saith Mr. Mode on Act. 5. 3 4 5. should not be Whether Tithes are due to the Ministers of the Gospel meaning as a duty of the people unto them but rather Whether they be not due to God for so is the style of the Scripture All the Tithes are mine These I give to Levi and not you There are many other uses for the employment of Bona sacra if they be more than is competent for them and theirs That men though gifted without being called to the Ministry and by Ordination set apart for it should take upon them the office or ordinary exercise of preaching seems repugnant to those Scriptures Rom. 10. 15. Heb. 5. 4. 1 Tim. 5. 22. Christ therefore frequently urgeth this That he was sent from his Father Punishments have been inflicted on those that have medled beyond their call as Uzziah Apage vaesanam illam prophetandi libertatem imo licentiam blasphemandi ut liceat maleferiato cuique tyroni prodigiosissima cerebri sui phantasmata in apricum producere populo commendare praelo Concio D Halli ad Syn. nat Dord Such as want Authority from the Church 1. are none of Christs Officers Ephes 4. 11. 2. They are expresly forbidden it Jer. 23. 21. 3. The blessing on the Word is promised only to sent Teachers Rom. 10. 15. Mr. Owen's duty of Pastors and people distinguished p. 46 47. Inprimis displicet mihi illa quam tuentur libertas prophetandi certissima pernicies religionis nisi cert is finibus acriter coerceatur Casaub epist 320. The same Collector pag. 683 684. Obj. WE are commanded not to eat with a Brother if he be so and so Ans It signifieth to have familiar civill society with them in inviting them or feasting them But if one may not have familiar civil conversation with such much less may he eat with them at the Sacrament It follows not for in withdrawing our selves from them we punish them and shew our dislike of them but in withdrawing our selves from the Sacrament because of them we punish our selves Mr. Downame on 1 Cor. 11. 28. saith None ought to refrain coming to the Lords Table because they see scandalous sinners unworthy guests admitted For 1. The Apostle here doth not enjoyn us to examin others but our selves 2. Because the Apostles yea even Christ himself did joyn with those Assemblies in the service of God and particularly in the use of the Sacraments which were full of corruptions both in respect of doctrin and manners viz. This Church of Corinth it self 3. Because one mans sin cannot defile another nor make the seals of the Covenant uneffectuall to him who cometh in faith and repentance and even hateth that sin which he seeth committed especially when he hath no power committed unto him by God and the Church of repelling the wicked from this holy Communion 4. Because the punishment denounced against unworthy Receivers is appropriated to them who thus offend and reacheth not to the innocent because they are in their company Zanchy saith Non aut ob talem abusum Ecolesia de sinit esse Ecclesia Christi aut pii impiorum in sacris Communione possunt contaminari Beza de Presbyt p. 28. Etiamsi suis oculis Minister quenpiam viderit aliquid agentem quod coenae exclusionem mereatur jure tamen nec debeat nec possit nisi vocatum convictum legitimè denique secundum constitutum in Ecclesia ordinem damnatum à mensa Domini cum auctoritate
prohibere Object We are commanded to separate our selves from the wicked and to come out from amongst thom 2 Cor. 6. 17. Ans We must indeed come out from amongst those that do serve false Gods and separate our selves from the familiar society of wicked persons but other separation was never practised by any Prophet or Apostle or ever meant Immediatly there it follows Touch not the-unclean thing that is Do not joyn with others in their pollutions Ephes 5. 6 7 11. p. 682. This Sacrament saith Mr. Burroughs on Hos 5. 3. is not defiled to the right receivers of it meerly because wicked men are present there but because the Congregation neglects their duty of casting out the wicked from thence whence they discover themselves Particular persons and Communicants come to be defiled in this if they neglect the duty that belongs to them as Christians Matth. 18. 15 16. If thou hast done thy duty to all scandalous persons in the Congregation then the sin be upon the Church thou maist receive the Sacrament with comfort though wicked men be admitted there p. 481. Dr. Ames saith Falsum est iniernas virtutes à nobis requiri ut aliquis sit in Ecclesia quoad visibilem ejus statum Bellarm enerv Tom. 2. l. 2. c. 1. s 5. The Apostles at the first gathering of the Church of the new Testament never required any more than the profession of the faith of Christ in fundamentals and that they were willing for the time to come to walk in Gospell rules John Baptist received Publicans and sinners Soldiers Scribes Pharisees when they confessed their sins and desired to be admitted into the faith of him whom John preached See Act. 2. 41 47. Vide Calvin ad Matt. 3. Many a one that may have real grace yet out of bashfulness and because he hath but weak parts may not be able to evidence it to others and others who have greater gifts may carry it away when they are not inwardly wrought upon I suppose therefore those are to be received into Church-Communion which profess the faith of Christ and subject to the rules of the Gospell if they be free from damnable errors and scandalous conversation Mr. Martial on Rom. 12. 4 5. I am verily perswaded that were the union and Communion of the people of God rightly known there is no Saint in any part of the world but where ever he comes might demand upon the profession of his faith and his voluntary subjection to the Gospell his right in the Ordinances hear the Word with them pray with them receive the Sacraments with them Mr. Baxter in the Dedicatory of his Rest YOu know I never conformed to the use of mystical Symbolical Rites my self but only to the determination of Circumstantials necessary in genere and yet I ever loved a godly peaceable Conformist better than a turbulent Non-conformist I yet differ from many in severall Doctrins of greater moment than Baptism c. And yet if I should zealously press my judgment on others and seek to make a party for it and disturb the peace of the Church and separate from my Brethren I should fear lest I should prove a firebrand in hell for being a firebrand in the Church Paulo post Make conscience of the great duty of reproving and exhorting those about you Make not your souls guilty of the oaths ignorance and unworthiness of others by your silence Admonish them lovingly and modestly but be sure you do it and that seriously This is the first step in Discipline Expect not that your Minister should put any from the Sacrament whom you have not thus admonished once and again Punish not before due process Dr. Ham. Pract. Catech. l. 6. s 3. Of preparation for the Sacrament THat every man is infinitely concernd to have his soul always possest with every part of that preparation That he careless oscitancy fatal stupidity of the world in never so much as considering whether they have any of them or no is a most prodigious thing That the time of preparing our selves for the Sacrament which ought to be frequent but how frequent is not defined in Scripture but left to the judgment of the Church is a very fit time for that self examination That till that be done and all and each of those graces Repentance faith c. found sincere in our hearts we ought not to come to that holy Sacrament which yet will not excuse any for not coming because he is not prepar'd but rather aggravate the sin upon him that rather than thus fit himself he will part with so great a treasure The same Authour Of Idolatry s 70. FOr the sign of the Cross used by our Church in Baptism which hath been by some cryed down under the title of Idolatry two things it will not be amiss briefly to have observed 1. That the same ground of zeal or passion that hath incited some men lately to charge it of a breach of the second Commandement hath long since moved one Parker on the Cross of the same spirit to accuse it as à sin against the other nine and to entitle his severall Chapters of the swearing Sabbath-breaking murder adultery stealing fals-witness and at the last of the concupiscence of the Cross as well as the Idolatry of it the reasons being much alike for the whole charge 2. That the signing with the sign of the Cross in that Sacrament is somewhat distant from that which the Papists use and an act of departure from them in King Edwards second Liturgy more than had been in the first Reformation The former custome was to cross the Child at the Church dore when it was brought to Baptism but this of ours as a mark of initiation or reception into Christs flock immediately following Baptism and a kind of tessera or military sign that the person thus consigned into Christ's Militia shall for ever after think himself obliged manfully to fight c. A change made meerly out of compliance with them who were jealous of too great an inclination to Popery and yet now charged with the guilt of that which it was on purpose designed to decline The same Author Of fraternall Admonition pag. 11. THis of Correption saith Gerson is by Christ's precept become our duty whensoever these 6. Conditions do concur 1. That I have a certain knowledge of the brothers sin a suspicion being not ground sufficient for so doing 2. That I use all mildness or mansuetude in admonishing the angry passionate correption being apt rather to provoke than to amend 3. If on consideration I discern not that some other is fitter for that performance than my self i. e. either more familiar with him or els his superiour that may have some authority over him as for a third consideration whether some body els be not more pious or better qualified I shall not put that into the scheme lest the most pious men being also the most humble should by that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉