the picture of Iesus or sōe of the Saints yet he cōdemneth it as contrary both to the scriptures and Christian Religion therefore perswades him not to suffer any such thing any more for it became him to banish such superstition which was vnseemely for the Church of Christ Yea Lactantius lib. 2 cap. 19. of his diuine institutions saieth flatly that their can be no Religion where there is an image he liued florished in the yeare 320. And S Augustine who liued after al these before named for he died not before the yeare 430. de consensu Euangelistarum lib. 1. cap 2. writeth that they euen deserue to erre which seeke Christ and his Apostles not in bookes but in painted wals Yea Gregory the great as they cal him Bishop of Rome though thē the painting of stories for an ornamēt of the church was thought tolerable yet he lib. 7. Epist 109. lib. 9. Epist 9. to Serenus slatly cōdemneth the adoring worshipping of images And whereas by occasiō of this tolerating of historicall painting of them through the superstition corruption of mans nature within short time by litle litle the worshipping of thē grew to be too much vsed liked of many especially in these Westerne parts of the Bishops of Rome thēselues by the yeare of Christ 700. the Emperour Leo the third in a coūcell held at Constantinople consisting of 330. Bishops there with the consent of that coūcell decreed that they should be quite remoued out of churches burnt seuerely he punishes those which notwithstanding would perseuere in the worshipping of them And the same course tooke his successour Constantine by another great coūcell held their ratifying the former two Emperours more succeeding him notwithstāding al this while the Bishops of Rome with stood thē what they might decreed as fast for the retaining worshipping of thē as they could as it appeares in Sigebert Blōdus others Howbeit though also in the time of Irene the nonage of her sonne Constātine in the east through the suggestiō of Therasius Bishop of Constantinople they got there a councell helde at Nicea consisting of three hūdreth fifty Bishops where to currie fauour againe with the Bishops of Rome who vpō the former occasiō as it appears in Sigebert others had bene a shrewd traiterous meanes to cause these westerne parts to reuolt frō the empire they decreed according to their humour for the honour of images Yet Africk Asia the greater could neuer be brought to receiue those canōs there made yea that more is though by that time the Pope had made Charles the great very much beholding to him in being the means to trāslate the empire of the west vnto him so were those canōs in this point misliked cōtradicted here in thes western parts that a coūcel in his time by his meās as the Emperour being called at Francford whereunto came many Bishops of Italy Frāce Germāy other cūtries yet there euē for this point was that coūcel of Nice reiected cōdēned as a wicked councell witnes both Regino lib. 2. anno 794. also one Hinckmare not lōg after those times Archbishop of Rhemes writing against another of his name thē Bishop of Iandune or Lauedune as some cal it ca. 20. where he for further proofe of this to be true writeth that the Bishops their assembled caused a booke of purpose to be writen sent to Rome cōteining at large a cōfutatiō of al the reasons vsed for images at Nicea which in his yoūg yeares he saw which the keeper of the Popes library Augustine Steuchus cōfesses to lie there writē in anciēt caracters de donatione Constantini lib. 2. cap. 59. nu 60. And Roger Houodē who liued 400. years ago in his cōtinuatiō of Bedeas story in the year 792. shewing how Charles sēt the canōs of that coūcel of Nice hither wherin as he saith it was decreed that images ought to bee adored which the church of God vtterly detesteth reports that one Albirus here wrote an epistle against that determinatiō maruelously grounded vpō the scriptures which he caried into France as he saith in the name of our Bishops by occasion whereof the rather it should seeme shortly after Charles thought meete to call the foresaid coūcell at Francford All these things notwithstanding neuer were images pillers and crosses more idolatrously decreed to be worshipped their nor euer were idols more grosly adored of heretiques or the very pagans and heathen then they haue bene yet be of superstitious Papists For they crouch kneele vnto them present offerings before them they run a pilgrimage vnto them and teach that they are to be worshipped with that honour that is due vnto them whose images and monuments they be though in an other manner not for their owne sakes but for theirs whose remembrances they be But indeed if in worshipping of them they did not principally respect the Images themselues why should there not be as great deuotion as many pilgrimages as great offerings presented yeelded to the image of Christ Mary or of any other aswell in one place as in an other Well howsoeuer they will do wickedly herein and when they haue done seeke to colour the matter such in truth all the worlde sees herein hath beene their dealing that Euthymius in his panoply had neuer more cause to name the Armenians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Idolaters to the crosse for their grosse and superstitious worshipping of it then we haue generally to count and call the Romanists flat idolaters for their behauiour towards it and other images also Thus then hoping by this that I haue said cōcerning this point that not onely thou maiest see goodreader when and how this point of popery first came in but how and by whom it hath beene oppugned but consequently also that the Romish church is herein destitute both of scripture fathers consent of Christian regions and al that she bragges of let vs see if wee can shew the like concerning the other point of forced single life vpō the clergy which she holds to be so necessary and holy an ordinance as that by no meanes without deadly sin it may be transgressed Euen in this as in the former if we search the monumentes of antiquity well we shal finde that they haue very auncient heretiques to be their first fathers leaders For the Tacianists commonly cald Encratites of their abstinence from mariage certaine other thinges who began about the yeare one hundred forty two were great condemners of mariage as appeares in Aug. ad Quodvult Deum in Epiphanius writing of them Heresi 46. After them spronge vp the Manichees who in like manner were enemies to mariage but not so vniuersally as the former for they permitted it to others and restraine onely their clergy from it whō they calde their elect as August witnesseth of them Epist 74. but indeed as many as
that they come to them by the ordinary way by right succession of Bishops and pastours continuing in one Catholicke faith downe from Christ to this present time thus childishly begging in one piece of one short sentence these foure great points all which in this case are betwixt vs and them in question namely that their officers all of them come to their roomes by the ordinary way that they haue right succession right Bishops and pastours and sounde and Apostolicke doctrine And yet though he knew well enough that wee constantly deny all these yet to proue that they come lawfully to their offices hee onely nakedly and barely affirmeth them as though he presumed that he was and should be such a Pythagoras in the conceit of all his Readers that for him once to say it were enough and enough againe For by and by after that thus he had onely saied hauing vsed neither proofe nor colour of proofe to backe his saying hee slippeth into another matter not yet called in question Whither a visible knowen and alwaies a demonstrable personall and locall succession of Bishops pastours be necessary for the perpetuall continuāce of the Church and preseruatiō of the trueth therin And thus hee windeth frō matter to matter leauing alwaies that vnproued which hee had most neede to haue proued labouring sweating continually about the proofe of that which though it were graūted him yet he might wel enough loose his cause As for example hauing entred into the foresaid matter in maner before saied in 3. or 4. whole Chapters following he shewes how the trueth is continued in the Church by succession of pastours how profitable their ministry is to bring men to to settle them in the truth that the anciēt trodē way by Christs sheepe downe from Christ to this day that the ancient Catholicke faith that the faith which in Irenaeus and Augustines time was helde and taught at Rome had vnto their times beene continued from Christ by succession of Bishoppes and pastours is the waie and faith that a Catholicke man must liue and die in whosoeuer saieth to the contrary In which propositions no maruaile though he goe on roundly for he hath winde and weather with him none of vs gainesaies him yea these things being rightly vnderstoode wee constantly affirme and teach the same But these things being all graunted him what is hee nearer his cause seeing as yet all the sort of them neuer could nor shall bee able to proue that their pastours succeed Christ his Apostles or the ancient holy Bishops pastours that were before Irenaeus Avgustines time in teaching the same doctrine that they taught But herein is his popish subtlely that standing thus vpō these points he would haue his Reader graūt him all these that their successiō of Priests Bishops is that successiō of pastours so profitable for the continuāce of the trueth and Church that their Romish Religion that now is is that ancient way that Christs sheepe haue alwaies trod so the ancient Catholicke Religiō which in Irenaeus Augustines time they the holy pastours Bishops at Rome and else where had soundly succeeding one another from the Apostles continued in vnto that time which are things whereof not one the Pope and all his confederates shall euer be able indeede to proue and therefore it seemeth Iohn de Albine thought it good policy seeing these thinges could be got no otherwise to trie whether he could get them thus by flatte begging of them And it seemeth also that hee presumed that hee should come onely to such liberall mens dores that all these should be graūted and giuen him euen at the very first asking for alwaies after he behaues himselfe in such sort as that without all peraduenture he had them all graunted him Onely a little in his thirty seuēth Chapter belike somewhat growing ashamed of his shamelesse begging al the while before he begins to make shew that if men should be so hard harted as to deny him that their pastours doctrine and Church are sound Catholicke that he is able to proue them so to bee whither such will or no. And yet euen there when all comes to all though indeede hee bragge that he could and would but for being too tedious to his Reader iustify the rest of their doctrine by the testimony of a number of doctours holy confessours and martyrs he onely by mustering of a sort of dumbe doctours vpon the stage makes his poore Reader beleeue that in the places quoted by him they speake directly to iustify their ceremonies their Auricular Confession praier for the dead and to the dead as though these were the principall matters in controuersy betwixt them and vs. But doubtles hee knew well enough that no one of his Readers amongst an hundred would and could turne the places and so try whither the men he name make there so for him or no. For otherwise for shame he would not haue quoted them so negligently falsely and corruptly as when I come to that place I shall shew thee hee hath These thinges considered Christian Reader thou must bee very simple and haue before hand thy minde wholy forestalled with his false principles or else hee shall winne with thee little credit to his cause or disgrace to ours Howbeit seeing both his whole drift and his publishers in his preface was as it euidently thereby appeares vnder the odious names of heretiques and schismatiques to disgrace vs and the trueth that wee professe as though it were not once to be called in questiō whither they and their crue were the onely sound Catholickes and Christians in the world before I let thee proceede come to the view of his declamation made to that ende and of my answere thereunto this vpon good and most cleare ground I protest vnto thee and assure thee what brags soeuer he or any other of his fellows make of their popish and Romish Religion that now is prosessed amongst them besides all other things that can or may be saied against it it is such a Religion and their Church the vpholder thereof such a dame as is the very nurse and baude of monstrous impietie as is intolerably iniurious to the right of the good estates of all Christian Princes and their people and as lastly howsoeuer it may seeme to carry a shew of holinesse it is not so but indeede cunningly vnder the colour thereof aymeth at no marke more then to aduaunce the pride pompe and gaine of her louers The first is euident in that their doctrine of their Popes supermacy is such as that for money hee may pardon any sinne as their practise teacheth either committed or to be committed yea their verie Hedge-priestes by the authority of the power of absolution giuen vnto them vpon penaunce done how light soeuer if it so seeme good vnto them haue and doe take vpon them marueilously that way to breede immunity and impunity by their absoluing whom for
sometime lesse or howsoeuer in like sort they haue varied both as touching the Clergy and the people that should haue to deale therein wherein they haue had as many diuersities as about the former or finally whatsoeuer concerning other circumstances of their election they haue thought good to adde or detract from the ordinary way before in force they haue neither long continued anie one ordinary waie neither during the time of the continuance thereof haue they followed inviolably that waie And as it hath beene with that chiefe Sea of theirs so hath it bene with other inferiour places so that no constancie hath beene in anie of their ordinarie waies of entrance nor yet anie due care either carefully to obserue the canōs of the scripture the canons of the Church or their owne decrees made for that purpose In their late councell of Trent by sundry canons and Chapters therein set downe it appeares that they there assembled considering what horrible abuses there had beene in the election and ordination of vnfit Bishops and Priests amongst thē thought it most needeful to preuēt the like for the time to come to deuise to enact sūdry holesōe canons to breed a learned preaching ministrie and to procure an election and ordination thence forth for them as free from corruption as in their wisedomes they could conceaue but yet who knows not but that those canōs haue since bine and yet are as carelesly lookt vnto and herein kept amongst them as though they had neuer beene made Wherefore to conclude this point let Albine and neuer so many more of them brag that they enter by the ordinary way vnles thereby he meane a way that ordinarily is naught and corrupt he speaketh more then euer he can proue and so therein hath saied nothing to proue the comming of their Bishops and Priests vnto their places to be lawfull and good And yet if we will beleeue him their Bishops and Priests are right Bishops and Priests but if it be true as it must needes bee that they can not be so who neither haue a lawfull way of entraunce to their offices nor yet their offices are themselues of Gods ordinance then it is apparant euen by that which I haue saied already that neither their Bishops nor Priestes are right Bishops nor Priests Their Bishops from the highest to the lowest by their vsage and practise chalenge and take vnto themselues an office of another essence and nature then the office that Christ and his Apostles haue left and prescribed to true Bishops and so likewise is it with their Priests For one vniuersall and head Bishop ouer all others such as they take their Pope to be Christ neuer ordeined for he made all his Apostles by giuing them all equall one and selfesame commission his officers equallie to beare for their times the generall and vniuersall care of ouersight ruling ordering and directing his Church and to bring it to full perfection ascending into heauen when he was disposed this waie in bestowing Church officers vpon his Church by the ministery of his word and sacraments to consummate it vnto the ende besides these as inferiour ministers hee gaue onely as you may read Ephesians the fourth Euāgelists Prophets Pastours teachers where neither your Popes Cardinals nor Masse-priests are once remēbred The matter wherein the full execution of the off ce of al the ministeries cōsisteth that Christ hath left vnto his Church is duely soūdly to feede Gods people committed vnto them with heauenly foode by painefull and diligent preaching vnto them the word of God and ministring vnto them the sacraments and rightly and oderly to gouerne the Churches of Christ by the administration of ecclesiasticall order and discipline which are things that the greatest and fattest in your Romish Synagog thinke themselues little or no whit at all bound vnto These things are too base matters for your Popes to be occupied about their office consists and therefore they accordingly must busie themselues in other matters as namely in making and marring in setting vp putting downe seculer Princes as they call them in studying by all meanes faire and foule to mainetaine and to enlarge their authority and patrimony in deuising by a thousād waies though neuer so couetously tyrānously insatiably to gather together infinite sums of money to buy or to winne by force of armes great principalities for their bastards nephews and neeces to spend in the persecuting subduing better Christiās thē thēselues to build sumptuous pallaces banquetting houses temples to shroud idolatry idols in costly beutified the better to intice men for their further aduantage to commit spirituall whoardome with them In and about these things your Popes now these many 100. yeares haue spent their wits all these parts of the world and all Croniclers of any credit can and wil testify If they haue any leasure from these affaires then they must shewe themselues not to haue beene idle and fruitlesse in deuising some newe ceremonie in adding some patch or other to their Church seruice in proclaiming the crosse against the Turke for the recouery of the holy land in publishing some Iubile and indulgences in setting vp some new order of Religious men for the better support of their kingdome or at least in plotting and contriuing some conspiracy or trecherous deuise to supplant and murther some Christian Prince that hath drawen or is like to draw his people from their Antichristian Religion And your other Bishops occupation lieth most in blessing with their fingers in consecrating of their vnholy holie Chrisme in christening of belles and Churches in ordering vnorderlie and contrary to their owne canōs of an idolatrous and new found sort of Priests in running vp downe fondly and superstitiously to minister the sacrament as they count it of confirmation scarse the tythe of them euer had either skill or will to preach And as for your Cardinals as they are of an order but of a late deuise so by their behauiour we can not iudge their office to lie in any thing else but to serue the Popes turne for the better setting forth of his magnificence at home and to bee his agents in forraine kingdomes the easelier to contriue his purposes their They are and haue beene a long time their first natiuity considered notable fellowes to haūt and maintaine the stewes at Rome and to deuoure and to consume in ryot vanity and impiety all the Bishopricks and benefices that they could heape together without any care for the good of the people and the vse of them hath beene to brawle and to breede scismes in choosing of Popes and to stur al coales and to moue euery stone as fast as they could one after another to thrust into that place Now to come to your ordinary Priestes though the matter of teaching and ministring of sacraments especiallie was posted ouer vnto them and vnto Friers yet either were they not able to doe it which was
must needs be good and lawfull and ours the plaine contrarie Howbeit if we examine this point throughly we shall find that they haue as weake helpe hence as from the other or from any thing else For whither they vnderstand by right succession succession without interruption in place person or office seuerally or iointly togither neither can their Bishops and Priests as they are now truelie saie they haue it nor yet if they could they being gone as they be from the soule and life of right Apostolicke succession namely the Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth are they euer the better And of the contrarie though it were neuer so true that we could not deduce vnto our present Bishops and Pastours downe from the Apostles or their times without interruptiō the line of succession in place person and office yet we being able to shew as wee are that we holde one and selfesame doctrine with them that would iustify our Church and ministers sufficientlie notwithstanding the want of the former This is quickly and easily sayed you will saie but these thinges cannot so readily bee proued I graunt to proue them will cost the more paines otherwise the proofe is readie and pregnant enough and that I doubt not but if with any indifferency that which I shall write to that ende bee marked shall ere it bee long appeare I say therefore first that the Roman Bishops and Priestes as they are now and haue beene a long time whatsoeuer they brag no not their verie Popes vnto whose right succession Stapleton and others trust most haue any right succession either to any Apostle or Apostolick man in place person or office For first they can neuer soundly proue the proofes out of the scripture are so strong to the contrary their proofes out of the stories so disagreeing and variable in all circumstances that Peter the Apostle whose successours their Popes claime to be and from whom al other Bishops and Priests amongst them haue their vocations and authority deriued was either euer at Rome or being there that hauing laied aside his Apostleship which was the greater and higher office he sate there as Bishop Secondly vnto this day they cannot agree of the order of succeeding one another betwixt Linus Cletus Clemēt Anaclet Vrspergensis in the life of Claudius hath notably at large set out both the difference of opinions in this matter and also the vncertainty of the trueth Thirdly none of any learning and reading can be so ignorant in the stories of the Bishops of Rome but he knowes that they haue not succeeded one another frō the Apostles to this day wtout interruptiō alwaies neither in place persō nor office For besids that sūdry times many Popes for some short time haue sate from Rome it is notoriously knowen that Clement the 5. about the yeare 1305. translated the Popes see from Rome into France to Auinion where it continued aboue 70. years And as for immediate orderly successiō of persons amongst them how is it possible truely certainly to define set downe that seing that see hath not onely stoode vacant daies weekes monethes and years somtimes 2. sometimes more but also there hath bene at once so often not only 2. but often 3. sometime more euery one striuing with his fauorers to be accoūted to be the right Pope And lastly by that which I haue said before of the nature of their offices of Popes Cardinalles Bishoppes Priestes their practise prouing daily my words therein to be most true how dare any mā that hath any feare of God once say or think that they in their offices haue any affinity with the Apostles or any Apostolicke man Light darknes are not more differing the one from the other then the offices of Apostles Euāgelists Prophets Pastours Doctours in the ancient primitiue Apostolick Church differeth from these offices of theirs Secondly whereas I sayed though yet they could which now you see they cannot truely say that they succeed the Apostles Apostolicke men in place person and office yet they were neuer the nearer my reasons thereof are these First I finde that wicked people wicked Priests in the scriptures often haue had this kinde of succession to pleade for themselues against the true Prophets and against Christ himselfe as you may see Ierem. 7. vers 4. cap. 8. vers 8. Iohn 8. v. 44. Vriah the Priest in King Ahaz time had this successiō frō Aaron and yet he to please that Idolatrous king set vp cōtrary to the commandement of the Lord an altar according to the patterne that the King had sent him of one that hee had seene at Damascus 2. King 16.10.11 The high Priests that withstoode alwaies Christ his doctrine and in the ende crucified him had this kinde of sucession yet none of these or their doings were any thing the more iustifiable for this Againe though Stapleton lib. 13. doctrinalium principiorū cōfesses that the Greekes haue beene scismatiques and heretiques this 500. yeares yet he all the sort of them of any reading know that not they only but also the Patriarches of Antioch and Alexandria and the Bishops of sundry other famous Churches in the world all which likewise they holde bee scismatiques and heretiques can doe make as great shew of this kinde of succession for the countenancing of their ministery and Churches as they themselues for they knowe that the Patriarch of Constantinople doeth deduce his locall and personall succession from Andrew the Apostle that the Patriarch of Antioch now sitting at Damascus doeth likewise his from Peter which he may doe more certainly then the Popes when they sate at Auinion could for it is euident Gal. 2. ver 11. euen by the scripture it selfe that Peter was at Antioch so is it not that he was at Rome In like maner they knowe that the Patriarch of Alexandria now holding his seate at Alcairum deriues his from the Euangelist Saint Marke And ignorant they are not that the Arrians preuailing as they did and in the ende hauing got the most seats of Bishops to be furnished with men of their dānable opinion that they for that time were able to holde this plea aswell as themselues and yet I am sure they will graūt that none of these were therfore or are therfore to be allowed iustified They will say I am sure for so I finde thē plainly to reply in their writings yea euen Iohn de Albine himselfe afterward Cap. 7. that though these all can and doe plead succession in place person and office that yet it cannot iustifie them because not onelie they haue helde some of them detestable heresies but presently also doe still Indeede I must needs confesse that I read that Macedonius Nestorius and Paulus Sergius abrupted the line of right successiō by their heresies at Constantinople that Paulus Samosatenus did the like at Antioch and that Dioscorus and Petrus Moggus did likewise at Alexanderia And
according to the successioÌ„ of those Bishops vnto whoÌ„ only the Apostles coÌ„mitted the custody of the Church throughout the world the which saith he is come to vs. This saied Irenaeus doeth write in his third booke and second Chapter that he and his fellowes did withstand the Valentinians and the Marcionistes which were great heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles d A cursed glosse for it corrupteth the text for the tradition that he speaketh of had good warrant in the writeÌ„ word that is to say the doctrine not writen but receaued from age to age of the Apostles and so continued till their time He saith likewise vnto the Traditions which are of the Apostles and that by successioÌ„ of pastours haue beene vsed in the Church we doe persuade and prouoke those that speake against Traditions Hee writes as much more in the third Chapter of the saied booke Forasmuch saith he as it were to tedious to set forth in one booke the Successours of al the Churches and to tel theÌ„ one by one we doâ—â—â—â—â— throw those that for vaine glory doe seek to gather disciples togither touching them contrary to that that doeth appertaine vnto the traditions of the Apostles the which we doe shew to theÌ„ by the saied Traditions and by the faith that hath beene taught and is come to vs by succession of the Bishops of the great and ancient Church of Rome the which was founded by the two glorious Martirs and Apostles Saint Peter Saint Paul These are his words in his third booke aduersus haereses a The third you should say the fifth Chapter And at the beginning of the saied Chapter he saieth thus All these that will vnderstand the trueth may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles which are manifest throughout the world and wee cannot count the number of those that haue bene instituted and ordeined Bishops in the Church and their Successours till our daies which haue neither knowen nor taught any thing like vnto the fables and tales that these doe preach vnto vs. b If you say so you say it without cause and vntruely Not without cause we may now a daies say the like of the Lutherans Caluinistes other sects of our time After this he doeth set forth all the Popes of Rome c If the Popes euer since had beene like these you and wee should not haue needed to striue as we doe from Saint Peter vnto Eleutherius which was Pope in his time And he did affirme that that number did suffice to proue that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false very hurtfull because that it was vnknown or at the least not receiued or approued by the Church being vnder the gouernance of any of thâ—se Popes Then with greater reason ought prescription to take place against d True but such you shall neuer proue ours to bee a new doctrine which hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at the least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false perâ—itious hereticke The V. Chapter YOu must remember that Vincentius liued 1000 yeares ago by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ that therfore he speaketh of their time and of the Catholique Church and ancient faith that then was Whereof if you vnderstand him we say as he saied and are more willing to ioine and holde communion with that Church of Christ that he speaketh of then you but then his saying maketh directly against you For neither your Church nor faith was in his dayes We grauÌ„t you also that Irenaeus did vrge succession of persons to stop the mouthes of the heretiques as you shew in this Chapter out of him but withal then you must not forget that he liued not long after the Apostles times when as yet they whose Succession he alleadged continued in the sincerity of the Apostolique doctrine from which long ago your Roman Church as it is now hath fallen by antichristian apostacy For that hee calleth the principall succession and those bishops onely he teacheth are to be obeyed who togither with the succession of their Bishoprickes haue receiued the gift of trueth as I noted vnto you out of his fourth booke 43 Chapter in my answere to your first Chapter But Irenaeus no where prescribeth that his example of vrging hereticks to see their folly by Succession for a perpetuall rule to followe neither therein doeth he prophecy that for 1000 yeares after further those successiue lines of Bishops or any other would continue so in possession of the trueth of doctrine as that safely alwaies they might be ioyned vnto For he was not ignorant what was prophecied concerning the comming of Antichrist 2 Thess 2. and Reuel 17. and that Paul tolde to the Pastors of Ephesus Act. 20. that after his departure there would arise vp euen amongst themselues grieuous wolues not sparing the flock which must needs import that howsoeuer in his time he thought sometimes of succession of bishops that continued in the trueth that yet it was farre from his meaning to prophecy that so it would be alwaies You reason therefore in this point as one that to proue the stewes at Rome now to be pure virgins should alleadge for proofe thereof that they were so when they were yong children For euen like difference and ods there is betwixt the Church of Rome now and her bishops and pastours and that that was in the daies times that you and the authours that you alleage speake of For whereas vnto these times the Church of Rome her bishops pastours stoode and continued in the trueth since not only many of the bishops of Rome themselues whom you hold are freest furthest of of al other from erring as I haue shewed already most plainly fell into heresie but also al your Romish doctrine which we now count cal papistical was diuised found out since those times and is also not only beside but contrary to the doctrine then taught receiued by the ancient Church of Rome her pastours as ere I haue done with you I hope at least in great part sufficieÌ„tly to proue It should seeme therfore that either you in thus reasoning are very childish your selfe or els you thinke you haue to deale but with babes and fooles in that because Irenaeus that florished within two hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was yet pure and vndefiled in comparison of the tymes that followed could and did vrge Succession of persons ioined with succession of trueth therefore you may that liue 1500. yeares after Christ and more You must first proue that succession of trueth is vnseparable from personall succession that euer since and now also the Bishops pastours whose personall succession you bragge of haue continued in the trueth as well as they did whose names he reciteth Whereof neither shall either you or any of you be able to proue as long as the world standeth Fye therefore for shame that you
and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in
Catholicâ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene
printed in our hearts that he be holden as an * Galat. 1. Anathema or an excommunicate person yea although it were an Angell of heauen The which doeth perswade vs not to receiue your d Ours is new to you as the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles was to the Iews in that time that vnderstoode not the Scriptures new doctrine or Gospell but to keepe our selues vnder the gouernaunce of our olde Pastours and Bishops without hauing any respect to their euill or good liues for as touching our faith and saluation that doeth import nothing e This is hardly boldly saied for any thing that you know some take occasion the rather thereby to haue them and so to be conuerted The good and holie liues of Iesus Christ and his Apostles hath profited nothing neither to the obstinate Iewes nor to the vnbeleeuing Gentiles f Open confessioÌ„ would haue open punishment Nor in the like case the depraued life of manie euill Bishops that haue beene at Rome and in other places haue not shut the dores of heauen against those that are true Catholickes and leade particuler liues the which are two principall pointes that doe quiet our consciences g The first is talke and the laâ—ter iâ— little bene seeing how many of you haue learned to be lâ—â—dâ— of them I meane the one that we beleeue that that our Pastours and the vniuersall Church haue beleeued these thousand and fiue hundred yeares and the other that their euill liues cannot hurt vs. For as the Apostle doeth say euery man shall beare his owne bundell The IX Chapter NOw perswading your selfe that you haue yeelded vs a sufficient account of your ministrie when as onely you haue countenanced it with a shew of personall succession and a bare bragge without any proofe at all of succession also in the Apostolique trueth as it may appeare by that which hath beene sayed you call vs to a reckoning for ours and will vs to shew that God is the authour of it or else to giue you leaue to say it commeth from his aduersary We answere you that our calling is of God first because orderly according to the order of the Church wherein wee liue wee are by them that are deputed by the Church for that busines tried and examined and then with imposition of handes and speciall prayer vnto God fitte for that purpose admitted and ordained ministers of his worde and Sacramentes Secondly because our office of the ministery it selfe is the same that Christ gaue vnto his Church vnder the names of pastours and Doctours whose office and properties are set downe and described Actes 20. 2. Corinthians 4. 1. Timothy 3. Titus 1. 1. Peter 5. And thirdly because we are able to proue by the writen word that we feede Gods people committed vnto vs with that onely foode which God hath allowed for his children and minister the Sacraments according to Christes institution Lastly God himselfe hath sealed ratified our ministery to be of him in the effectual vocatioÌ„ conuersioÌ„ of many thereby Let vs now therfore heare what you can say either to weaken this our assertion that our calling is of God or any of these reasons that we vse to proue the same by First in Tertullians words de Praescrip aduersus haereticos you bid vs shew the beginning of our Churches and reckon vp the succession of bishops down to vs from the beginning c. you haue heard that the same Tertullian in the very same place yea euen in the words immediately following yours addeth Be it that heretiques deuise thus to doe for what is not lawfull for them being once fallen into blasphemy But though they shal deuise so sayeth he they shall gaine nothing For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine by the diuersity and contrariety thereof will pronounce that their Churches haue neither Apostle nor Apostolique man for the authour thereof Whereof when he had giuen a reason he addeth that those Churches which caÌ„not shew any Apostle or Apostolique man to be the founder thereof in that they were founded long after as many are yet in eâdem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae de putantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae that is they are no lesse to be reputed for Apostolique agreeing with them in the same faith euen for the affinitie therof You thought it good to stop before you came to these words For these words indeede take away all the force of the obiectioÌ„ grouÌ„ded vpon the former in that hereby it is euident that howsoeuer Tertullian in his time could shew the originall of the Catholique Church by deducing it and the doctrine therein professed euen from the Apostles to his time yet hee thought it was possible for heretiques to make shew of the like succession of persons but secondly and especially because thereby it is most cleare that to proue a Church to be Apostolick it is not necessary for it alwaies to be able to deduce such a line of personal succession down from the Apostles but it is sufficient to be able to make it appeare that the doctrine thereof agreeth with the doctrine of the Apostles Which vnles we be able to doe by the Scriptures whereby we most cartainly may know what their doctrine was let not our Churches be accounted Apostolique But if this we be able to doe which we doubt not of and yours compared and conferred with the Apostolique doctrine therein expressed shall proue both diuers and contrary then for all your fiction of succession we say vnto you in Tertullians worde that so your Churches shall be proued to be founded neither by Apostle nor Apostolique man For as the Apostles taught not contraries amongst theÌ„selues so neither did the Apostolique men saieth he vnlesse it were they that departed from the Apostles and ours shall proue themselues though they were not able to deduce their Succession from the Apostles by their affinity of doctrine with that of the Apostles to be Apostolique and so to haue their originall and beginning from Sion and so also in the end it will fall out that Tertullian spoke rather against such as you are theÌ„ against vs. And thus you see Tertullian hath sufficiently answered himselfe and also hath giuen vs weapons against you to defend our selues withall You gaine euen as little by your similitude taken from tenants who to proue their title good must shew their Land-lordes how by succession they came to their landes For if all Land-lords should thrust all their tenants from their possessions which are not able to deduce the descent of their tenimeÌ„ts froÌ„ one to one euen froÌ„ the first that held it purchased it the 10 tenant in the world should not long quietly enioy his owne Yet you for your parts if your bare bragge were a proofe are such tenaÌ„ts to the inheritance of the church of Christ and the Catholique trueth that you haue not onely proued your title thereunto to be good by
by BertraÌ„ and others before named and their followers as we haue made it most euident in many bookes writeÌ„ to that purpose namely of late in a great booke called Orthodoxus coÌ„seÌ„sus the true catholick coÌ„sent of the holy Scriptures ancient Church of the trueth of the words of the Lords supper and of al the coÌ„trouersie thereabout printed at Tygure 1578 which booke al the swarme of you wil neuer be souÌ„dly able to answere coÌ„fute as long as you liue And therfore al the rest of this Chapter is needles wherein you suppose that betwixt Christ and his Apostles and vs there is none that we caÌ„ produce of our iudgemeÌ„t or otherwise against you But you take vpoÌ„ you to proue that we cut of theÌ„ al that haue bene betweene theÌ„ vs because Caluin hath writeÌ„ haÌ„dling this matter of the sacrament that he did find that they of old time had chaÌ„ged the fashioÌ„ of the administratioÌ„ therof otherwise theÌ„ Christs institutioÌ„ would beare c. wheruâ—oÌ„ your coÌ„clusion followeth not for diuers causes For an argumeÌ„t froÌ„ one to al holdeth not as Caluin hath done so ergo it is all out opion we al do so For though we accouÌ„t of him as of a rare singuler minister of the Lord yet wee doe not binde our selues to doe and say whatsoeuer he did and saied For we know him to haue beene a man subiect to error and infirmity for al his gifts neither wil you be coÌ„tented that such an argument should hold alwaies drawn froÌ„ any one of your greatest most famous learned writers to presse al the rest And a second reason of the weaknes of your argumeÌ„t is that there is more in your coÌ„clusion then is in the antecedent giuen you by him For you would conclude for those are your words to the proofe whereof you cite Caluin that we condeÌ„ne cut of al the ChristiaÌ„s that haue bene are betwixt Christ his Apostles and vs wheras Caluin speaketh not of al but of some of olde time The 3 reason Caluin himselfe giueth you in the eueÌ„ in the words set downe by you he sheweth plainly that though in theÌ„ that he spake of he noted some aberration froÌ„ the simplicity of Christs institution yet he did not therfore cut theÌ„ of froÌ„ the Church nor coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ What are you such a cutter that you straight cut of al those froÌ„ coÌ„munioÌ„ with you in whoÌ„ you caÌ„ iustly finde any fault or errour in opinion or practise of life Surely then you must cut of most of your best frends That which we can foundly proue to be a fault in brethren either ancient or of later time we may safely note tel them of and labour to reforme yet as long as they ioine togither with vs in one God faith and Baptisme otherwise we can and ought to holde peace Christian communion with them or els where caÌ„ there at any time be any true concord or peace kept in the church For some differences of opinions vsages there haue alwaies yet beene and wil be betwixt one particuler Church and another and betwixt some members of the true church or other You needed not therfore I warrant you one whit haue beene afraide that Caluin his fellowes were so scrupulous that they would not ioine in fellow ship with some such as he speaketh of there and yet the letteth not but that he should couÌ„sel his readers to prefer Christs own simple institution before the vsage of them or any other differing from it The XI Chapter YOu doâ— verie wel that S. Paul doth coÌ„pare many times the mistical body of the church vnto a natural body seing that Iesus Christ is the head vnto whoÌ„ the body is ioined by ioints bones sinews If one should then demande of you how the feete are ioined to the head you will answere me by the legs which are next vnto the feete And if I aske you how the legs are ioyned to the head you will answer by the ioints and by the 〈◊〉 of the backe and so consequently from member to member I doe beleeue that we are all of one accord * 1 Cor. 10. that the ende of the world is at hand and so consequently that we are the lower most part of the body so that 〈◊〉 the feete or the legs Then my masters you that haue made so fâ—ne aâ— Anotomie of the Masse at my request make another of the ministrie of your congregation a You were a very pleasant man be like that could thus play your selfe a fit of mirth and when you had done daunce after your owne pipe it seemes you thought that the sport then would be so pleasant that no beholder could forbare laughter If you should see such another as Apelles that would paint a man and that he had drawen his head and without painting the rest of his bodie he had set his feete vnder his eares what would you saâ—â— to such a Table Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici Would you not thinke that he was a simple painter or else a great Iester Euen so doe you deserue that one should laugh at your ministerie b This is vntrue and a grosse slaÌ„der for we hold and teach that euer since Christ to our daies there haue bene both shepheards and sheepe ioyning with vs in the vnity of faith therfore you laugh at your owne shadow and vaine fansie For you will ioine your Church if it may bee so called vnto the church of the Apostles without setting forth anie members betweene them You take but scant measure when you will cut of all the Bishops Pastours and doctours that haue beene from the Apostles time till our daies they being the members that followe the head of the church This maie well be called a new Religion or to saie the truth it is a meere presumption to flie without winges or to climbe without a ladder And I saie to you againe that this is not the waie to followe the counsell of the great Sheepheard that I mentioned before who doeth saie vnto vs that if we will not misse the waie of the Catholicks we ought to follow the flocke of those sheepe that haue gone before vs that is to saie that we should reckon c But thâ—s in truth yours caÌ„not do therefore yours is not the Catholicke Church by your owne reason by succession the Pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which as we haue shewed the Catholicke church doeth and hath euer done The XI Chapter As though you had most substaÌ„tially proued by Caluins words that we cut of all Christians betwixt the Apostles and vs in this Chapter you vrge the metaphor of a body whereunto vsually the church of Christ is compared whereupon you gather that as there is an orderly connexion and situation of members in a body so there must be in the church and that therefore our church must
Christ doth say He that hath sent me is with me and he hath not left me alone And therefore Theodorus his fellowes did conclude that there was no more vnion betweene the diuinity humanity of our Sauiour then there is betweene God vs. Of the which * c 1. Cor. 5. S. Paul doeth speake where he saieth hee that is ioined to God c Well quoted you would haue saied 6. is made one spirit with him The XXVI Chapter IT doeth suffise that one maie see by these fellowes how soone one that is ill disposed may alleage scripture in corrupt sense to maintain such heresies as these the which I will not staie to confute for thankes be to God they doe not raigne now for they haue perished and their authours a This is but a blind Prophetes dreame as you shall and your followers if yee doe not repent in time And besides this our Doctours haue fullie answered b It is wel yet that you wil confesse thus much by textes of Scriptures these olde heresies as you maie see in al the ancient ecclesiasticall writers and confuted them not onely with pithie reasons but vvith the true worde of God and the authoritie of diuerse generall councels And if I haue noted here some part both of their authours and of them to shew how they did seeke to confirme their damnable opinions I doe it only to warne the simple people that they should not so soone giue eare to false Pastours which haue nothing in their mouthes but the holie scripture and the pure word of God couering the cuppes of their poison with the gold and pretious stones which they haue taken from the image of the eternall king to paint those subtill Foxes that will leade them all to damnation And therefore in the name of God I doe desire those that are not much vsed to reade the Scriptures nor to heare how the Church and the doctours doe expound the hard places a So doe we but not to driue theÌ„ from reading theÌ„ but to shew them hat they must be read and searcâ—ed diligently to beware how they reade them for feare of falling into errour taking onelie the letter which manie times hath a contrarie sence to that that is outwardlie writen For if so manie men of great learning excellent vnderstanding haue found such great rocks in this rough sea which haue manie times ouerthrowen their shippes how dangerous then must it needes bee vnto those that will take it in hande so doubtfull a nauigation hauing little skill or none at all But as for you my masters of the contrarie side you can saile with all tides all windes giuing the gouernance of the shippe or the guiding of the sterne without consideration b This is a meere slander to all kinde of people We haue at this daie in France I will not saie in England manie that haue the holie spirit Interpreters of the scriptures And for sooth what are they Mary Pedlers Coblers Tanners Bankrouts Runnegates such others which hauing no other liuing c Here the authour bewrayeth himselfe rather to haue beene an English man then a French For when this should be wrâ—ten there were no Lord Bishops in France to make such but papists sue to my Lord Bishop and hee makes them ministers beeing not one of them but hath the holie spirite d All this is but slanderous rayling lying for we doe not say or thinke thus but cry vpon Bishop that they admit no suc vnfit meâ— and we call vpon such rather humbly to content them selues with the places of earners then to presume without sufficient knowledge to be teachers for assoone as they can saie the Lorde and raile vpon the Pope the Bishops and all the learned men that haue beene in times past Oh these are great doctours no place of scripture to them is hard all the ancieÌ„t doctors were men the generall councels did erre I knowe that you doe maintaine your opinion with the saying of * e John 8. Christ alleaging it as other hereticks haue done the which is That the heauenly father hath hid these high and profound thinges from the great Clerkes and hath reuealed them vnto the meeke and humble This is true but it ought to be vnderstoode to the humble and meeke of spirit and not to those which trust so much to their owne wittes beeing puffed vp with arrogant ignorance that they thinke to know more in three daies reading then the doctours could in fiftie yeares studie faming themselues to be like the Apostles as if that God gouerned by their appetites did send euerie moneth the feast of Pentecost c Mat. 11. you should haue saied The XXII XXIII XXIIII XXV XXVI Chapter NEither our owne Doctors nor any thing els that yet you haue saied for all your great brag haue any force either to disproue that lawfulnes of our vocation or to condemne our religioÌ„ Neither is it true that we stand so much vpon our extraordinary calling as you would insinuate to your reader For we tel you that if you take ordinary calling in your owne sence if ther be any good at al in that Wickliffe Iohn Hus Luther Bucer and the rest that haue bene the first formost in these late daies in detecting the errours of the papacy and in renuing the light of the gospel had that kinde of calling And as for the rest since they haue had a better ordinary calling theÌ„ that in that it hath bene more agreeing to the order of calling by the Apostles and primatiue Church But in that to expresse what you meane by our extraordinary calling you say that therby you meane a calling without commission of the pastours and bishops c. I perceiue that therefore it is that you charge many of our ministers to preach the gospel extraordinarily because howsoeuer otherwise they had before they tooke vpoÌ„ them any dealing in the ministry the ordinary calling allowed of in the reformed Churches of Christ where they were to exercise the same they tooke not first any of your popish orders at the hands of some of your popish lord bishops after your popish maner In which sort I graunt you many of our ministers haue an extraordinary calling but then I say vnto you againe that their extraordinary calling hauing an eie to that order that Christ and his Apostles left in this case vnto the Church is more ordinary then the ordinary calling that you speake of And therefore though their calling of late daies here amongst vs hath not bene according to your order that they haue neither beene chosen by your pastours nor had imposition of hands of your Lord bishops yet you cannot say truely that any of them take vpon them extraordinarily that is as you expouÌ„d it without the commission of the pastours and bishops to preach the Gospel Name the man time and place you caÌ„not when and where any that is
to John de Albines booke is extant vnder the tytle of a deliberate aunswere to a rash offer c. and it vvas printed by Iohn Charlewoode in London 1588. They both haue vvith their aunswere set downe the words of the offerer The trauels of these two men haue eased both me this booke of mine of medling any further then I haue sayed with that Chalenger and the rather because since hee had his first aunswere we neuer yet heard that hee had either skill or will to replie I might well ynough considering the largenesse and sufficiency of Master Crowleys answere thereunto haue omitted that vvhich I further haue sayed to aunswere his six signes not touched by Doctor Fulke but that vvhat I haue vvritten thereabout vvas written before I sawe Master Crowleys answere and that I thought it not amisse to let it stande that so betvvixt vs three the vvhole thus might bee tvvyse aunswered Though it were Master Crowley vvho as I noted before in the first leafe of his booke making aunswere to this offer that gaue that iudgement that Iohn de Albines booke had beene the cause of so much apostasy of late here amongst vs yet he as he there shows would not bestowe tyme in aunswering of it because supposing by the title it was written by a Frenchman therefore either in french or latine he thought that either Beza or some other french protestant had done it already sufficiently This when I redde first it caused me to be the slacker both in finishing and publishing this answere of mine Yet in the ende forasmuch as this was now amongst vs in English and therefore in his opinion had hurt so much and so many English persons and I could neuer learne of any certainty that in any other language it had beene directly answered by any I thought it needefull and the best way whether any such answere in any other tongue had beene made vnto it elsewhere or not to preuent as much as maie bee anie further such danger amongst vs by it to accompany such poyson with his fit counterpoyson that is such an English popish discourse with an English christian answere And the rather because howsoeuer by the title there is shew that the author was a Frenchman yet indeede I can hardly be perswaded that he was so For his publisher in English taking leasure as he hath to trouble his reader with a long tedious and friuolous preface hath not therein so much as secretly once insinuated vnto vs in what language the author wrote it yea he hath not once meÌ„tioned any traÌ„slation of it either by himselfe or any other the consideration whereof together with sundry phrases and matters conteined in the booke makes me rather thinke that some of our owne fugitiues English Iesuits or seminary priests indeede haue made it then any such Archdeacon of Tolosa in France as is pretended But howsoeuer it be in this respect it is not much materiall and therefore I haue not beene herein curious for these my reasons notwithstanding in all this my answere vnto him I frame my speech as to the author whose name it beares And howsoeuer I may doubt of his person and cuntrey of this I am certaine whosoeuer he were French or English the sonne of that bondwoman Ismael was neuer cunninger in persecuting the son of the freewoman Isaac with scoffes mocks then the author thereof was by the same meanes to doe what might be done to vex and grieue vs. Whosoeuer he was the right popish vaine spirit of writing he had For in so short a peece of worke I am perswaded by that you haue viewed him ouer together with this answer of mine your Lordship will be of opinioÌ„ that neuer any of that factioÌ„ weÌ„t beyond him in shameful begging alwaies the things most in questioÌ„ in subtle slipping froÌ„ the matters vndertakeÌ„ to proue into other more easy for him not in question in false quoting abusing the testimonies which he alleadges or in barrennes of matter or methode in such copy of swelling bragging and triumphing words Sure I am for my owne part though I know these be the common ornaments of popish writers that I neuer redde any whose book coÌ„sisted so wholy of these as this of his But to leaue him as hee is whosoeuer he was and to returne vnto your Lordship once againe I dedicate and offer this my poore labour vnto your honourable view protection which I doe not because the truth of god which I haue therein taught and defended standeth neede of the patronage of man For god the author thereof can and will defende and protect that though al the great meÌ„ in the world should band themselues against it but for diuers and sundry other reasons iustly me mouing thereunto One is which I haue touched already that of right the dedication hereof appertayneth to you because I had neuer taken it in hand but by your Lordships motion perswasion An other is that you since my comming to the place where I am for these eleuen years last past haue alwaies been yet are a most louing fatherly patrone to my ministry mee and mine by which right though that former reason had not beene your honour may worthily chalenge not onely in this but also in all other such poore fruites of mine growing from me thus nourished and cherished vnder your Lordshippes patronage greater interest then this which I offer you nowe herein But if neither of these two reasons had been yet you being the man you are that is by the grace goodnesse of God as far as you are knowen which is very farre amongst the godly and truly religious a man by birth honourable for martiall prowesse more and for giftes of sounde learning religion and vertue most of of all to be honoured and esteemed euen that would haue drawen me though otherwise I had been a meare stranger vnto you by this means to haue sought to haue testified my duetifull and hartie good affection towardes you For pietie ioyned with Christian nobilitie hath been the auncieÌ„t cause why the godly learned in auncient times haue dedicated their works to such as they haue iudged truly qualified therewith doubtlesse therby both the better to encourage them to whom they dedicated their labours to proceede and goe on in the good course they had begun and thereby to prouoke others to imiâ—ate their good exaÌ„ple that the like honourable opinion may by such also bee conceaued of them likewise when occasion should serue to their comfort testified publickely of them in the church of God What else mooued Ambrose to dedicate his bookes of fayth and the spirite to Gratian the Emperour What else caused Lactantius to dedicate his diuine instituâ—â—ons to Constantine or what else enduced the holy â—uangelist S. Luke to dedicate his historie of the â—ctes of the Apostles to noble Theophilus It was â—oubtlesse great honour vnto these men in their â—imes in the churches of Christ
word to trust them any more in their quoting or citing of the fathers But lest we should thinke that this was but a slippe of his by chance that hee was not his craftes-master in this kinde of dealing he hath plaide vs the very like trick againe with this same father pa. 18. where he alleadgeth the fourth chapter of the said Irenaeus third booke to iustify their traditions not warranted by the written word For in the beginning of the saide chapter not fiue lines before the wordes cited by him hee speaking of the scriptures written by the Apostles Euāgelists he saith that they into that rich treasury most fully haue brought all things that belōg to truth so that euery one that will may frō thence take the drink of life And that which he speaketh in the words alleaged by him of following of tradition it is spoken only by way of supposition to shew what course had bene best for the Church whē any questiō should haue arisen if they had not left vs scriptures For his words are these if the Apostles had not left vs scriptures must we not haue followed the order of tradition which they gaue to them to whom they committed churches In which case which is not our case nowe seeing they haue left vs scripture we grant we should haue beene in the deciding of all controuersies that could haue arisen ouerruled by that which they deliuered by word of mouth to such and therefore that being the case no better or readier way for the ending of controuersies should there haue been then to haue recourse to the most ancient Churches wherin they were conuersant and so by their tradition to haue learned the certainty therein But thus by way of supposition Irenaeus speaking of their tradition in the case supposed by him certaine it is that by their tradition he vnderstādeth that soūd form of doctrin which they deliuered by their preaching teaching which thē would should haue been the same forasmuch as they spoke wrot by one spirit that now they haue left vs in writing And therefore euē then the Romish Church should haue been as far to seeke as she is now for hauing any warrant from thence for those things that she holdeth either contrary or besides the word written And that by tradition he meaneth here no other thing it is euident for in the first chapter of that booke he saith plainely Quod tum praeconiauerunt postea per Dei voluntatem nobis tradiderunt in scripturis columnam fundamētum fidei futurum that is that which first they preached after by the will of god they deliuered vnto vs in the scriptures to be the piller and ground of faith And in the third chapter of that book hauing before spoken of the Apostolicke tradition he after sheweth what he meant thereby namely this that god the maker of heauen and earth c as he is described in the olde testament the Apostles haue taught to be the father of our Lord Iesus Christ contrary to the phantasticall franticke dreame of Valentinian so plainely shewing that they that would euen by the scriptures themselues might learne what the Apostolick traditiō was Now what is this for the authorishing the vnwritē traditiōs of the Romish church which are not ōly al beside the scriptures but whereof the most are contrary thereūto But this gentle reader is the right trick of all the crue of these Romanists thus by the ambiguity of words out of the fathers to seek to colour their absurd opinions so er thou be a ware to deceaue thee if thou take not heede As for example to perswade a mā to like of their beggerly vnwritten traditiōs whatsoeuer any father speaketh of traditiō though it be neuer so plaine in the author himselfe that thereby he meaneth nothing lesse then such traditions as theirs yet that must be confidently brought in as fit most pregnant for their purpose Likwise whatsoeuer any father hath said of any sacramētall chāge of the outward elements for that therein their name vse estimation are chāged though the same father in a thousād other places shew that his iudgemēt is that there is no change at all there in substance yet that must be quoted as a flat place for Popish trāsubstantiation And euen so if they find in a father speaking of the Eucharist any mention of a sacrifice as though there were no kind of sacrifice but that which they dream to bee there that must be vrged as a strong place to proue their blasphemous sacrifice for the quick the dead And this iugling with the fathers and cosening of their poore simple readers vse they in al their cōtrouersies But at this time thou must pardō this preface writer this fault because herein he doth but study to bee like him before whose book he hath set this his preface For chapter the fifth he himselfe most grosly committeth this same fault in the detection whereof I haue more at large discouered this lewde dealing of theirs In the meane time let vs not forget that Irenaeus hath taught vs what that church is who those pastours be what those traditiōs are that we must obey be ruled by namely onely that Church that hath the scriptures for the piller groūd of her faith lib. 3. cap. 1. those pastours that succeede the Apostles in truth of doctrine li. 4. cap. 43. those traditiōs which haue good warrant from the scriptures themselues lib. 3. cap. 3. whereof it must needes follow that all the places reasons quoted by him either out of the scriptures or fathers to binde vs to yeeld obedience to their churches ordinances their prelates cōmandements to the points warranted onely by their traditions their Church hauing another foundation of her faith then the worde written namely alwaies their popes will as it hath the commādemēts of their prelates traditions being not only beside but also often most grosly contrary to that word of God writtē as I shal shew in sundry places er I haue done with Albine in Irenaeus iudgemēt ar but so many abusings and corruptings of their holy good meanings And yet thus hauing to no purpose bestowed a great deale of idle paines as one that had said inough to proue that the authority of all the learned fathers the cōmon consēt of all Christiā regions prescriptiō of time were al ful fast of his side he lustily braggeth p. 22. that if their be any weight in any or al these together that his side hath the true gospell the true sence thereof That their Religion is the very Christian Religion their order of ceremonies the right order and that their fasting and praying is according to the scriptures and that therefore their church is the lawfull and true spouse of Christ from which who so seperates himselfe is in state of damnation This thus only said thereupō by and by as though there were no
in b But that place you find not in this booke some other place but at this time we must treat of our vocation to answere him and his complices how and by what vertue we exercise our ministry c This I deny that you come to your calling in this sort for neither is there right succession amongst your Bishops and Pastours nor continuance in that trueth which yet you say only neuer proue We are called to this estate according to the ordinary way that is to say by the right succession of Bishops and Pastours and by the coÌ„tinuance of one Catholique faith deriued froÌ„ the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally d That trueth indeede hath alwaies coÌ„tinued and shall by the meanes of faithfull teachers but neither with you nor by meanes of your teachers is at all proued by there places Math. 5. Ephes 4. for in diuers places of the world it hath beene euer cleare and certaine manifestly shining like the light set on the table to giue light to all those of the house and not vnder the bushell to be shadowed with darkenes Saint Paul e Peruse the place you shal finde that though Paul reckon vp there those ministeries which should fully be sufficieÌ„t for the Church yet he once meÌ„tioneth not your gretest Prelacâ—es Howsoeuer therfore it may be as you hold they be necessary and most necessary for the pompe of your Church that so the better she might answere her patterne Apoc 17. yet thereby we may see Christs Church shall may grow to her perfection yet neuer bee acquaâ—nted with them after that he had recited by order the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchie I meane of the Apostles Prophets and EuaÌ„gelists he doeth declare at the last the cause why they were instituted being for the edification of the mistical body of Christ the which is the Catholique Church vntil saieth he that in the vnity of faith we go to meete him He taketh his similitude of many that come from diuerse waies and meete all in one way f Indeede hee plainely there teacheth thaâ— there shall bee alwaies to that ende teachers in he Church but hee saieth not that they shall so succeede one another either in person or place aâ— you would â—eene thereupon to builde For no such line of continuall locall or personall succession from his time to this day can be produced And thus hee meanes that the spiritual edification of the Church ordeined of Bishops Pastours and Doctours shall endure vntill that the Gospell be preached through all nations By the effect of the which Gospell both French Spanish English Greeke Persian Arabian Latines Barbares with many other nations which were too iediâ—â— to name haue met together hauing of great antiquity all one kinde of Catholicke faith by the Apostles and their successours for euer As the some of God before he suffred did attaine arriue to the perfectioÌ„ of his age euen so his misticall body of the Church shall continue in this world vntill it be perfect in his members and that the number of the chosen be accomplished And euen as a materiall building caÌ„not be perfectly atchieued without g We see and heare of many great goodly buildings in the ende perfited in building whereof there haue beene many and sometimes long intermission continuance of workemen and masons euen so the spirituall building of the Church cannot be atchieued without the succession of Biâ—â—ops and Pastours preaching or causing the word of God to be preached which is the very spiritual building the which hath beene euer common and visible in the Church according to the prophecie of Esay h Sap. â—1 say you wel hit the place is in Esay 62. Sap. 61 â—ho meaning to declare the care that God taketh as touching the preâ—eruation of his Church hee did say as it were representing the state of Hierusalem I haue established and ordeyned i But few such haue beene in your time of succession these many yeares watchmen vpon he walles the which shall neuer holde their peace neither day â—or night These watchmen are those that haue annouÌ„ced to vs our salâ—ation They are the trumpets of Iesus Christ which neuer haue left their â—ounding in the true Church of God from the Apostles time vnto this â—resent day AN ANSWERE TO MASTER IOHN de Albines discourse against heresies called and accounted by his frendes A notable discourse to that purpose made by Thomas Sparke Pastour of Blechley in the countie of Buck. .1591 Chapter first CALVIN we esteeme and account of as of a rare singular minister of Christ his writings as they well deserue wee thinke reuerently of and you haue tried them to be of great force power to shake the very grounds and pillars of your Babilonical building but our Patriarch we neither account nor cal him though you in your third word take it and therefore set it downe for graunted that we doe It seemeth you thinke scorne that hee should charge your Priesthoode not to bee of God and so to cal you to an accouÌ„t of your vocatioÌ„ Indeede I caÌ„not blame you that it grieueth you that that should be called into question seeing it is a thing you haue bragged on so long haue gained by at the hands of the blind ignoraÌ„t both al the credit wealth you haue especially seing also that what words soeuer you vse to countenance the matter yet you shall neuer be able to iustifie it Howbeit as though not onely you were able to answere Caluin to the full in this point but also as though there were either some great impiety or vanity at the least in his words you recite them twise admonishing your Reader that they are his wordes Be it that they be so what haue you saied either to argue the least folly in theÌ„ or to iustifie your vocation in such sort as therein he proueth you must or els it cannot be of God First you woulde proue Caluin in these wordes to offer you wrong in that out of the 5 to the Hebr. he gathereth that vnlesse you can proue God to be the authour of your vocatioÌ„ it cannot be of God because the Ciuill law prescribeth that one should proue his right of possession before he demaunde it and that he should restore the spoile before the suit proceede But who seeth not that that which he alleadgeth out of the 5 to the Hebr. doth more iustifie his demauÌ„de that either you must shew that god is the authour of your Priesthoode or els confesse that you are not called of God then anie thing that you haue noted out of the Ciuil law can proue that he offereth you any wrong in calling for this at your hands Because you are an Archdeacon it should seeme that you would faine that men should thinke to the ende you may be iudged the fitter man to execute your office that you haue some skill in the
the condition of most of them or else if they did it in steade of feeding the people with the milke of Gods word which onelie Saint Peter warrants to bee without deceit 1. Pet. 2.2 they fed them with vaine dreames fansies tales and traditions of men For these onely are the grounds of that which is properly now the Romish Religion And in very deede when they were ordered their especiall businesse appointed for them was to sacrifice for the quicke and the dead which is a thing not onely beside the office of anie true minister of Christ but also directly contrarie both to their office and Christs also For they by warrant expressely from the canonicall scriptures are to teach their people that Christ himselfe in his owne person once for all when hee dyed for the redemption of man offered the sacrifice that for both quicke and deade soly and wholy fully and effectually must serue the turne for euer and that in offering this propitiatory sacrifice he is an euerlasting Priest and may haue no successour either to offer another sacrifice as though this were not sufficient or to offer this againe as though hee had not himselfe offered it well enough Besides herein commission is giuen them directlie to peruert Christes institution of the sacrament of his bodie and bloud For whereas by the right vse thereof thereby should bee offered vnto man the bodie broken and bloud shed of Christ for him to bee fed on and receiued by him to saluation by their commission and intention herein they offer these thinges to God the father Further if wee consider their reading vnto the people all in an vnknowen tongue their praying to Saints and Angels their praying for the dead their blasphemous imagination that they by breathing a set number of wordes vpon a wafer cake make it very Christ and other their superstitious and magicall incatations and coniurations of water oyle salt palmes and other creatures these beeing so directly contrary to the word of God as they bee whatsoeuer here Albine hath sayed of them wee may most iustlie and truely aduoutch them to bee right Priestes of Antichrist and consequentlie no right Priestes of Christ But seeing hee will needes so indefinitely and generallie pronounce his sentence That their Bishops and Priestes bee right Bishops and Priests to leaue these generall obiections and reasons against them and to come to some particuler examples first I would faine knowe of him whereas there haue beene a twenty three scismes at least in the Papall see sometime two sometime three sometime foure all at once contending that they were right Popes which of these was alwaies hee that for the time was to be accounted the right Bishop And if neuer but one of them yea sometimes none of them were right and therefore they were driuen to depose and suppresse them and to set vp a newe they all during their times hauing had manie followers and many were made Bishops and Priests by them and so successâ—uelie from these infinite others haue had their consecration and orders how can wee count these right Bishops and Priestes that were made by such as had no right to make any or how shall we seuer them that if they fetch their pedegrees haue had their originall from such from those that are descended from them that were made by the right Popes This nutte will trouble the whole Church of Rome to cracke But to deale plainely and particularly what can he or any of them vnlesse they be disposed to be conuinced of wraÌ„gling by a cloud of witnesses say for Ioan the eighth that in the ende proued her selfe openly in a solemne procession to bee a harlot by her fruitfulnes for Christopher Sergius Laudo Iohn the 11.12 13. all Popes in a rowe and yet especiallie aduanced vnto and kept in that dignity by their concubines and harlots for Siluester the second and a number of his successours who were promoted by Nicromancy and poisoning their predecessours or for Hildebrand after called Gregorie 7. who the same euening that his predecessour was dead thrust into the place not one Cardinall subscribing to his election rather euen by force then by any meanes else Boniface the eightth got the place by cosening Caelestine his predecessour by the sound of a voice through a tronke through the wall of his chamber Boniface the ninth was chosen Pope by the Cardinalles at Rome and yet as I saied before when they chose him hee was but twentie yeares olde he could neither write nor sing nor vnderstand his latin tongue Balthazar de Cossa Cardinall through feare at Bononia draue the Cardinals to refer the nomination of the Pope whom there they were about to chuse to himselfe who by and by chose and set vp himselfe Sixtus the fourth builded a famous stewes at Rome of both kindes as Agryppa writeth of him and witnesse Wesselus Groningensis hee graunted an indulgence to the family of S. Lucia that for the three hoate monethes in the yeare they might vse the sinne not to be named The like Indulgence graunted Pope Alexander the sixth to a Spaniard Petrus Mendoza Cardinall of Valentia so to abuse his base sonne Marques Sanatensis MoÌ„strous are the incests adulteries Sodomitries that stories report of Paul the 3. And Iulius the 3. his Sodomitrie especially with one Innocentius whiles he was Cardinall at Bononia whoÌ„ therefore hee made being still but a very boy Cardinal when he was Pope is in the stories reported very ill of And the rather that which in this respect is writen of him should seeme to be true because in his time there was one HieroÌ„ Mutius set vp publickely in bookes to defende certaine filthie and lothsome amarous verses writen by one Camillus Oliuus companion to the Cardinal of Mantua to one Hanibal Coliuus that in his time IohaÌ„nes Casa Archbishop of Beneuentum Deane of the chaÌ„ber Apostolicke and the Popes Legate in the dominioÌ„s of Venis wrote in the commendation of that filthy fact of Petrus Aloysius Paulus 3. his sonne with Cosmus Cherius Bishop of Fane and that with the applause and liking of that time Now what Will Albine say for all these things that these were right Popes Bishops and Cardinals right and seemely they maie be to serue the whoar of Babilon otherwise such can neuer be right Bishops and Priests to serue the Lord Iesus But if neither that which he hath saied concerning their comming to their places by the ordinary way nor this vaunt of his that their Bishops and Priests be right Bishops and Priests can doe him any good yet it may be he hopeth some credit will growe vnto them in that he hath saied they haue their places vy right successioÌ„ Indeede succession and the deriuation of it without interruption downe froÌ„ the Apostles especially in their line of Popes is a thing that such as he brag much of saying that that they haue we haue not that therfore their Church the ministers thereof
I cannot deny but that I finde all these and the Churches vnder them still charged to holde errours and heresies but this then withall I infer the more true that it is and hath beene thus with them the more euident it is of what small acount this personall and locall succession is of it selfe either to giue credit to Bishops and Pastours or their religiō that can plead that And this further I adde if these be sufficient causes to make their alleadged succession to be of no valew then there is as great cause why succession bragged on so much by the Romanists should be reiected as a thing not worth the naming For not onely in inferiour places of Bishops and Priestes which is a thing that they will not striue with vs about it is so manifest that there haue beene many heretiques amongst them but also euen in their line of Popes who as some of them hold cannot erre there haue bene sundry heretiques also For Tertullian contra Praxeam writeth of a Bishop of Rome that did allow of the Prophesies of Montanus as he saieth therefore sent letters of communion to the Churches of Asia and Phrigia thereabout And Athanasius in his epistle ad solitariam vitam agentes and so also Damasus in the life of Liberius and Hierō de ecclesiasticis scriptoribus testifie that Pope Liberius was drawen in the ende to subscribe to Arianisme And Honorius died an heretique as it is to be seene in the first general councel Act. 12. 13. c. Liberatus also Breuiarii Cap. 22. witnesseth that Vigilius in secret fauoured heretiques Anastasius the second fell into a condemned heresie as we read Dist 19. Cap. Anastasius and therefore would haue restored Accatius a condemned heretique And yet I say nothing of Pope Iohn 23. condemned for an heretique by the councell of Cōstance the schole of Paris for denying in effect the immortality of the soule Yea the euidence of the trueth in this point is so open and strong that it hath caused their owne frends to condemne them of grosse flattery that holde that Popes haue not and cannot fall into heresie as any man may see that will read Alphonsus contra haereses lib. 1. Cap. 2. 4. Lyra vpon the 16 of Matth. and the third Synodall Epistle of the councell of Basill And that the Romish Church doeth now holde as grosse and palpable errours and heresies as they charge these withall if I proue not ere I haue done with Albine I will neuer craue credit either to our ministers or to our Churches and cause Wherfore to leaue the proofe of this to his place or places to goe on with that which I haue vndertooke to proue against them concerning this their brag of right succession whereas thirdly I saied that though we were not able to deduce or deriue downe from the Apostles wtout interruption any locall and personall succession vnto our Ministers that now bee yet as long as ours teach and our people embrace the same doctrine that they taught wee are well enough whatsoeuer they say to the contrary that resteth onely now in this case to be proued But before I come to the proofe of this least in this my assertion I be mistaken I would first that it were marked that I speake but by way of supposition that is if we were not able to set downe a continued line downe from them to vs without any interruption for in the 4. Chapter following I hope I shall set downe such a descent of our Church from them to vs as whereby it may sufficiently appeare that there was neuer age nor time since but our Church and religion hath had her teachers and hearers Secondly I would haue it also vnderstoode that my meaning is though it were so that wee could not make recitall or demonstration of any such descent or succession in that processe of time distance of place and the force and subtlety of our enemies kept vs from knowing their names persons and places that yet for the continuance of the trueth and the Church of Christ amongst men I constantly holde and beleeue that there hath beene a continuall and vninterrupted succession of teachers and embracers of GODS trueth whereof his Church consistes euen from the first beginning thereof and shall bee to the ende Onely this is it that thereby I am contented bee insinuated that the Churches of Christ if they can proue that they are taught by such ministers as God doeth raise vp vnto them according vnto his good pleasure whither ordinarily or extraordinarily and that they embrace no other doctrine but that which Christ and his Apostles taught witnes the canonicall scriptures that then they are to be accounted Apostolike and holy Churches of God and that in such a case especially in and after great persecutiōs ruines long oppressions of their mēbers children they neede not to be daunted nor discouraged neither in respect of their ministers and teachers nor in respect of their doctrine though they cannot be able lineally to name the persons either by whom their ministers downe from the Apostles haue had their vocation deriued vnto them or else by whom euer since that trueth hath beene continued For howsoeuer in visible Churches of GOD whiles they stande in florishing or vnoppressed state and condition by the fury of persecutours there is a set order and forme visibly to bee obserued in the vocation of Church ministers in respect of which estates and times it is easie for them that liue therein or within the knowledge and remembrāce thereof to make demonstration of the lyne of succeson yet when in the iust iudgement of God the Churches shall bee oppressed as now a long a time they haue beene vnder the tyranny of Antichrist then and after such a time such a thing growes to many not onely harde but also impossible And in such tymes wee finde that the Lorde of his wisedome and power to continue yet his Church rayseth vp men though not by the ordinary way vsed in the former tymes as after the dispersion of the Church at Hierusalem by meanes of the persecution there when Stephen was stoned we reade that the Disciples beeing dispersed and namely with them Philip the Deacon that hee preached the Apostles not aware thereof for any thing that appears so vnder Cōstātine Antonius the heremite taught at Alexandria and vnder Valens Aphraates Flauianus and Iulianus at Antioch beeing then but Monkes who in those dayes were not so much as counted amongst Clarkes as wee reade in Nicephorus libro 11. Chap. 15. These thinges thus premised thereby not onely my meaning shall rightly bee conceiued but also that which I haue saied in some sort is already confirmed But my reason indeede is that true and sounde apostolicke doctrine in the good prouidence of God towards his Church opened and continued in the same though by men not comming to their places of teaching by the ordinary way alwayes but sometimes somewhat
extraordinarily as he seeth need thereof is and may be such effectuall seede to beget childrē vnto God and so holesome foode to feede thē yea euen vntil they grow to a full age perfectiō in Christ Iesus that though their teachers cānot shew for the defence of their calling who alwaies successiuely in person and place haue gone before them yet euen this trueth of their doctrine doeth proue them and their people to be Apostolique Churches whereas though they could doe the other without this it were nothing And because my aduersary seemeth in this point otherwise to make great reckoning of the testimony of Irenaeus Tertullian and Augustine I will stande to their iudgement in this whither to succeede the Apostles in doctrine be not sufficient without the other locall and personall demonstrable succession and not this without that Irenaeus in his fourth booke and forty three Chapter teacheth vs onely to obey those Elders in the Church which from the Apostles with the succession of their Bishopricks haue receiued Charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum patris that is the certaine gift of trueth according to the pleasure of the father for as for all other whatsoeuer they pretend for he excepteth nothing he there immediatly sheweth that absistunt a principali successione that is they are gone from the principall succession and therefore must be suspected And Tertullian in the very same place de praescriptionibus haereticorum quoted by Albine after in his 9. Chapter immediatly after the words there cited by him wherein he calleth for personall succession hath added these Cōfingant tale aliquid haeretici c. but let heretiques deuise some such thing for after blasphemy what is not lawfull for them saieth hee but though they doe faine some such thing yet it shall nothing preuaile thē For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine by the diuersity cōtrariety thereof wil pronoūce that it hath neither Apostle nor Apostolique mā to be the authour therof For saith he as the Apostles taught not amōgst themselues contrary things so neither did Apostolique men teach contrary things to those that the Apostles taught After this sort therefore let them be prouoked by those Churches which though they cannot produce either Apostle or Apostolique man to bee the founder thereof in that they were long after planted as dayly there bee tamen in eâdem fide conspirantes non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae yet they agreeing with thē in one faith are no lesse to be reputed Apostolicke Churches then they that were planted by the Apostles What can be plainer then this to shewe that though our Churches could not satisfie his request in pleading the former succession that yet if they can shewe this that they agree with the Apostles in doctrine that they therefore are far rather Apostolicke then they that can produce the former without this And though Augustine in his 165. epistle and also in his fourth Chapter against the Manichees epistle which they call their foundation remembred by Albine cap. 6. doe there seeme to make great reckoning of personall succession yet when he had shewed of what force that and some other reasons were with him he preferres trueth indeede warranted by the scriptures before them all Wherefore what I haue saied concerning the vanitie of their brag of personall and locall succession either to iustifie theirs or to disgrace our Church or ministrie is sufficientlie proued But all this labour will Albine say I might haue spared for he spake not simplie of succession but expressely of right succession of Bishops pastours and to shew what he ment thereby he expresly added the continuance of one Catholicke faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally at anie time Moreouer I confesse that sundry times after so forcible was the trueth in this point with him that in wordes he confesseth that personall and locall succession without continuance in this trueth is not the thing that he vrgeth and yet for all this this that I haue saied of this point is not needlesse For besides that fewe of his opinion will bee brought to confesse thus much this both in others and in himselfe in sundrie Chapters following maie be obserued that when this confession is made by anie of thē it is wroong frō them much against their wils for their shew of proofes run wholy for the magnifying of personall successiō to be the marke whereby true Churches and the ministers thereof maie vndoubtedly be discerned Againe if in this he spake as hee thinkes why doeth he make so much adoe about the personall and visible succession of Bishops and pastours and neuer ioines this issue with vs to trie out soundly and throughly whither they or we haue this Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth For herein onely lieth all the controuersie betwixt them and vs and this determined the question betwixt vs were quite ended let them once therefore but proue indeed that they are in possession of this soūd trueth and that alwaies downe from the Apostles they haue continued therein if we ioyne not streight with them and repent vs hartely of our departure from them accursed be we Yea if we cannot proue by cōparing their doctrine with that which wee are most sure the Apostles taught to be both diuerse from that and contrary vnto it vnderstanding by their doctrine as wee doe that which is proper to them and wherein we are against them let vs for euer leese our credit and cause Now for the decyding and determining of this great maine cōtrouersie wee appeale to the canonical scriptures which we knowe are most fit and sufficiēt iudges herein whereunto vnles they will deserue the name of lucifugae that is of shunners of the light which for the like cause Tertullian gaue the heretiques of his time de resurrect carnis they will be contented to bring their doctrine as to the touchstone Indeede in Tertullian and Iraeneus time the heretiques as it appeares in their workes for the triall of their opinions fled from this touchstone and when they were vrged herewith they behaued themselues the likest these our aduersaries that euer I saw For Iraeneus in his third booke and second Chapter testifieth thus of them cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionem that is when they are reproued by the scriptures then they are turned streight into an accusation of them as though they were not right nor were of authority both because they are so set downe as that variably or diuersly they may be taken and because by them the trueth cannot be found out by those that are ignoraunt of tradition This notwithstanding it appeareth both there and elsewhere that he calleth them to this triall
Catholiques that withstood the Arrians in the sight of this Emperour had but a poore visibility to bragge of Yea Piggius your owne man confesseth Hierar lib. 1. cap. 6. that their poison had defiled not a part but almost the whole world in so much that almost al the Bishops not only of the east but also of the West by one meanes or other were blinded and no small time continued this heresie and this is certaine that they bragged then as much of visible succession of the name of the Church and vniuersality as euer since you haue done calling the true Christians Homousians as you doe now Lutherans Zwinglians as appeareth in the writings of those that wrote against them You may see therefore that these weapons or staies are coÌ„mon to you with blasphemous and condemned heretiques These places of Scripture and experiments therefore caused August vpon the 10. Psalm 78. Epist to compare the Church vnto the Moone which besides the monethly waynings suffereth oftentimes ecclipsies And surely vnles we be too too wilfull al these things togither may make vs out of doubt that the Church of God both before Christ since hath ofteÌ„ failed to cary any such outward visible shew in theeies of the world that it is so easie a matter to make at al times demonstration of her Pastours teachers who they were and where they taught as you our aduersaries would beare the world in hand it is And therefore for answere to this Chapter to any reasonable man this is sufficieÌ„t The II. Chapter SAint a Thus you are falne from prouing that you are come to your places by the ordinary calling of such as haue ri htly succeeded one another both in person office trueth of doctrine which is the thing you should haue proued to shew that there hath alway bene and must be a successioÌ„ of Pastours to continue settle meÌ„ in the truth which is another point For though this were grauÌ„ted you yet you haue not therby wun the other Paul followeth this discourse in the fourth Chapter vnto the EphesiaÌ„s where as he doeth declare vnto vs the fruit that doeth proceed of this successioÌ„ of Pastours and of the perseueraÌ„ce of the reasonable sheepe in one kinde of spirituall doctrine called the vnity of faith For he sayeth that God established this order to that ende that wee should not bee like light children a The more is your sinne that haue suffered yourselues to be caried away froÌ„ the truth by the enticements of Antichrist caried away with euery blast of false doctrine through the subtilitie of men their crafty words full of deceit In these wordes you doe see how the Apostle doeth declare vnto vs the counsaile the intentioÌ„ of the holy Ghost b If you had beene constant in this faith wee and you had beene all of one minde and vnles we can â—ustifie our faith to bee euen so grounded as you say we will forsake it and ioine with you but if we caÌ„ then you are to forsake yours to ioine with vs if you will answere the intention of the holie Ghost I meane that we should be constaÌ„t in our faith the which is grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the Doctours Pastors that successiuely haue continued in one kinde of faith Catholick religion froÌ„ the first time that it was preached with out turning with euerie winde but rather that we ought to stand firme stable Here is to be noted that wheÌ„ the Apostle doeth tel how he hath left vs pastors doctors to warne vs of the subtletie of false teachers he doth vse a certaine greeke word very apt for this purpose the which hath in English the signification of the c I would not you had forgot this note for it doeth liuely paint out your doctours which by this their skil in cogging and cosening doe make the scriptures to haue a flexible sence alwaies sutable to the practise of your Romish Church how variable so euer that be playing or cogging at dise And euen as he that hath no great skill if he plaie with such a one he wil soone lose his money because the other caÌ„ cast what he will EueÌ„ so if a simple maÌ„ being vnlearned doe chaÌ„ce to talke with such a one as caÌ„ cog or to speake plainelie falsly interprete the Scriptures he may soone be deceaued as we see it daily happeÌ„ to many that play away put in hazard the rest of al their spiritual inheritaÌ„ce I meane the faith which hath bene left to theÌ„ by their fathers froÌ„ age to age since Christs time Thus haue the Arrians the Nestorians diuers other heretikes deceiued manie a man as I will shewe more at large hereafter The II. Chapter IN this second chapter you obserue further out of the 4 to the Ephe. before alleadged that God established a ministery in his Church that we should not be like childreÌ„ caried away with euery blast of vain doctrine thorow the subtlety of meÌ„ their crafty words full of deceit whereupoÌ„ you inferre that thereby God hath taught vs to be constaÌ„t in our faith grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the doctors pastors that successiuely haue coÌ„tinued froÌ„ the beginning in the same Who of vs euer either wrote spoke or thought otherwise But herein is your subtlety that you take this stil for grauÌ„ted which indeed is the maine question betwixt vs and for determinatioÌ„ wherof on your side you haue as yet saied nothing that the faith and religion which your Synagogue is in possessioÌ„ of is that faith which you speake of which we constantly deny affirming the faith religion which we professe to be that indeede wherein the Apostle would haue vs constant and setled and which hath alwaies coÌ„tinued in the Church and hath bene taught and iustified out of the word writen by the true pastors thereof in one place or other froÌ„ time to time And therfore herein you haue saied nothing but the we vnderstanding it of our faith and religion maketh as much for vs as for you We grauÌ„t you also that false teachers and wrong interpreters of the Scriptures worthily there may haue their subtlety expressed by a word importing cogging or cosening but then still we adde that your teachers a long time haue bene the meÌ„ that haue vsed and yet doe vse that cogging tricke Which if it would please you once by the souÌ„d rules of interpreting the scriptures to let your interpretations and ours be examined we doubt not but to make most manifest vnto all men quickly The III. Chapter THe place that I haue quoted of the Apostle doth shew how daÌ„gerous a thing it is to fal into the hands of such Coggers of the scriptures likewise how certaine a thing it is a Such interpretation of the doctour we will most willingly follow and if you should you would
quickelie forsake your popery and ioyne with vs. to follow the interpretation of the ancient Doctours standing to that that euer the Catholicke Church hath taught not to turne at euery blast Vpon this matter one * Lib. con haer Vincentius Lyrinēsis who florished aboue a thousand yeares agone he saith thus If anie mā perchāce demaund saying Since that the rules of the Scripture are certaine b Yea and more then sufficient saieth he Marke he graunts the rules of the scripture to be sufficient how is then that true which your Andradius saieth the greatest part is left to tradition not writen sufficient of thēselues And what neede haue we thē of the authority of the Church He answereth For that saieth he that the secrets misteries of the holy Scriptures are such that euery mā doeth not vnderstand thē interprete thē after one sort but that of one place this mā that mā shal seeme to maintaine their opinions being cleane cōtrary one to another so that looke how many mē so many interpretations For one way it is interpreted by Nestorius another way by Arrius another way by Sabellius so forth according to diuers heresies that haue risen from time to time And therefore it is necessary for the knowledge of the trueth among so many errours to draw the c And for these reasons we allow of Vincentius rule vnderstanding as he doth that by the right line and rule of interpreting is ment that sence which hath the consent of the Prophets Apostles and Catholique Church for no other sence we giue of the Scriptures right line of the Propheticall Apostolical interpretatiō according to the rule true sense of the Catholicke Church This is the learned opinion of this anciēt father Vincētius Lyrinensis The III. Chapter IN the 3 Chapter you say as little to the purpose as in the second For vnderstanding by the Church the true catholique Church indeede and not your late Synagogue of Rome falsely by you so named because neither it nor the faith thereof is vniuersall neither in respect of time nor person whatsoeuer you haue writen therein we confesse to be most true and sure we are it maketh more for vs then for you For we neuer denied the ministry of the true Church to be needefull according to Vincētius rule to finde out the true sence of the scriptures and certaine we are that we are farre better able to iustifie our interpretations thereby then you are yours and he liuing a 1000. years agoe as you write we boldely affirme that you shall neuer bee able to proue that the Catholicke Church and her doctours and pastours before or in his time taught the errours and heresies now taught by yours for the which wee account yours Antichristian And yet as in the former Chapter most beggerly you begged this principle that your doctrine is the ancient Catholicke faith so here in this you begge this also that your Church is the true and vndoubted Catholicke Church But you must vnderstand howsoeuer your owne frendes will giue you at your first asking both these that yet we will graunt you neither of them both And therefore writing as you would seeme purposely against vs you should not thus miserably alwaies haue begged them at our handes but by sound and iust proofe at least haue endeuoured to proue that you had iust right thereunto and then with some more honestie and credit might you haue gone on in this supposall that they are yours This also you must vnderstand that when it is in question which is the trueth of Religion yea euen in the fundamentall points as indeede it is betwixt you and vs it is alwaies also in question which is the Church of Christ For as both parts imagine they haue the trueth so will they perswade themselues that they are the true Church Your frendes also and all others must bee aduertised that it is no newe thing for damnable heretiques to brag much both of the truth of the titles of the Church of the doctours thereof least through too much simplicity they think streight that you haue al these things on your side because you haue them so much and so often in your mouthes For as Cyprian writeth Epist ad Iubaianum de baptizandis haereticis the Nouations after the fashion of apes challenged vnto themselues the name of the Church and all other they called heretiques And we reade that in the time of Arius Macedonius and Donatus these heretiques accounted themselues the onely Christians and that the true Christians indeede were counted by them Homousians Macarians Caesarians and Caecilianists So doeth Tertullian de Prescrip aduersus haereticos testify that the heretiques did in his time So did the Donatists saieth August Contra Epist Parm lib. 2. cap. 1. and Epist 161. and he writeth Cōtra Epist Fundamenti cap. 4. that amongst the Manichees there was great brags of the trueth Bernard also in his 66. sermon vpon the Cāticles speaking against certaine filthy heretiques that condemned mariage and superstitiously absteined from meates yet saieth that they gloried that they alone were the body of Christ bragging also that they were the successours of the Apostles and Apostolicke the Church of Christ And indeede wee finde nothing more vsuall with the ancient hereticks then to boast that they had the Church and Catholique trueth on their sides And very vsuall we finde it also with them to stand much vpon fathers in the defence of themselues and their heresies For it appeareth in the Councell of Calcedon the 1. Action that Eutiches bragged that he had reade Cyprian and Athanasius yea that then and there he confidently saied for his defence that he had so learned of his ancient predecessours and that he had beene baptized in that faith had liued and hoped to die in it And we reade in the 4. Action of the same councell that Carosus an Eutichian heretique saied stoutly I beleeue thus according to the exposition of the 318. fathers and so was I baptised Dioscorus also in the 1. Act of that Councell cried and saied I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers Athanasius Gregorie and Cyrill on my side I go not from them in anie thing I am cast out with the fathers I defend the fathers doctrines I haue their testimonies euen set downe in their bookes for me And as we reade in August contra Cresconium the Donatist 2. booke cap. 23. and in his 4. booke cap. 17. he cited for himselfe Cyprian and it seemeth that Maximinus the heretique against whom August wrote vsed to alleadge for his defence the councell of Ariminum and therefore Augustine saieth vnto him Neither will I obiect the councell of Nice against thee neither oughtest thou to obiect that of Ariminum against me 3. booke 14. chap. What a vaine thing is it these things considered for you and your fellowes then to carie away the simple vnder the bare titles of Catholique trueth Catholique Church
suffering their Croniclers to mention them or else in causing them to deface them with strange name and false slaunders maketh it very hard yea if impossible no marueile you hauing the euidences whereby we should doe it for the most part a long time in your owne keeping to vse at your owne pleasure for vs to name from time to time the places and persons that haue alwaies succeeded one another for the continuance of our faith and Church But to returne againe to the consideration of this place of the Canticles further I saie as I saied before that you erre in alleadging this or any other place of the Scripture to proue that the Church of Christ may safely account those flockes in possession of the trueth and therefore to bee followed and those sheepheardes true sheepheardes and therefore meete alwaies to bee consented vnto that lineally downe from Christ can deduce their personall succession For so as I haue shewed in the first Chapter and it is not denyed of your selues sundry heretiques in their times haue done and can doe still If therefore you say you meane still that flocke and those sheepheardes that together with their visible personall succession haue alwaies beene in possession of the true ancient faith I answere first you begge still the thing in question in supposing that to haue beene alwaies ioyned with your flockes and sheepheards which we say and are able to proue they fell from many hundreth yeares ago Secondly I tell you once againe and now this time for all that you shall neuer bee able to proue but that both that personall succession may bee separated from trueth and also trueth from it and that therefore it is neither a certaine meanes to knowe the trueth nor the Church of Christ by Thirdly for your collection out of this place for the iustifying of your Church before ours because as you say from time to time for this thousand and fiue hundreth yeares you can shew the descent and continuance of yours and we cannot of ours for one hundreth yeares no not beyonde the yeare one thousand fiue hundreth and seuenteene we affirme that both in the one and in the other herein you write vntruely For first if your Church as it is now either in respect of the doctrine or gouernement thereof bee compared with the ancient Roman Church in the Apostles times or for many hundreth yeares after there is such diuersitie betwixt the one and the other as that the one beeing founde the chast spouse of Christ the other must needes bee proued to bee the very whoar of Babylon The simplicity of the ministerie that then was is turned amongst you into a pompous Lordly and more then Princely prelacy And then the Church was fedde with the pure worde of God conteyned in the Scriptures and so ledde thereby perfectly to vnderstand the will of God and with you as carefullie as may bee that is kept from her and in steede thereof shee is fedde with the dreames inuentions and traditions of men Then she was taught to account the name of Christ the onelie name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and therefore that in him all thinges were prepared Math. 22. and now with you besides him Saintes Angels your owne merites and the merites of others satisfaction in this life by your selues and after by others with a number of baser things must ioyne with him in the office of intercession betwixt vs and God and in the most glorious worke of our saluation as though hee either could not or would not go perfectly through with the worke of our saluation in himselfe and by himselfe but had so begunne it as that the accomplishing and perfecting thereof were left to these vaine and foolish by-meanes Then her faithfull doctours and teachers taught her that Christ in saying Hoc est corpus meum this is my body meant that it was a signe figure of his body as you may reade in Augustine against Adimantus the Maniche cap. 12. and in Tertull. against Marcion cap. 4. and in infinite places elsewhere in the ancient fathers and now contrary to nature yea to the verie nature of a sacrament contrary to the analogie of faith and good manners yours teach that those wordes being vttered by your Priestes thereupon followeth such a transubstantiation of the bread into his bodie that whosoeuer receiueth the outward parte of that sacrament receiueth in by his mouth the naturall bodie of Christ If thus I were disposed to go a long as farre as I might and to leade the reader to a full view of the difference betwixt the Romish Church that nowe is and that which hath beene I should euen therewith make a great booke But further of these differences I haue noted as you may reade Chapter 19. 20. and else where in this booke And Doctor Fulke against Stapletons Fortresse hath noted out of Bede and other authours of good credit 50. differences betwixt the church of the English Saxons in the time of Augustine the monke who was 600. yeares after Christ at the least and the Popish church that now is and infinite be the differences then betwixt the Church before in her puerer times and the Popish Synagogue now And therefore whatsoeuer you bragge neither you nor all your fellowes shall euer be able to proue indeede that your personall succession hath beene ioyned with the continuance of one and selfesame doctrine of Christ vnto these daies And to come to the other point therein I saie you write vntruely also For so far of is it that we graunt Luther to haue beene the first that preached the Gospell that wee now embrace and that wee cannot shewe by whom and where it was preached and receaued before that there is nothing more common with vs in answering this your obiection of newnes then to tell you that so farre of is it that it is newe indeede that it is the very ancient Religion and Gospell taught both in the olde testament and newe and therefore though it grieue you wee tell you that the ancient Patriarches and Prophets Christ and his Apostles taught the verie same and no other and all the ancient doctours and fathers as farre forth as they were able to iustify that which they taught by the Scriptures were sheepheardes of our church and teachers of our Religion Indeede we confesse that as Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiahs time 2. King 22. found the booke of God and was so a meanes to bring those thinges to light that by the wicked proceedings of Manasses Amon and others had for a certaine season lien hid So Luther in these late daies was a singuler instrument of God to reuiue and bring to light diuerse pointes of Christian faith which your Antichristian Synagogue had long laboured to smother and hide from the eies of the Church And yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion then vpon the former it followed that Hilkiah was then first the
meanes to preach the lawe of God And I tell you truely that I cannot maruaile yet sufficientlie that anie man of anie reason iudgement and learning as you would seeme to bee should be so farre past all shame as confidently to set downe in print that wee cannot deny but that Luther 1517. began first our Church and Religion that we can name none 100. or 200. yeares before that taught it when you cannot be ignorant vnlesse your ignorance be verie grosse that we name vnto you verie manie and that in all ages to haue beene of the same Religion and Church that wee are now of For first there is nothing more vsuall with vs then to tell you that all the ancient Patriarches Prophets Euangelists and Apostles witnesse the canonicall Scriptures liued and died in our Church and Religion The same opinion wee tell you wee haue of all the Christian martyrs whose number is infinite that were slaine in the first 300. yeares after Christ vnder the 10. bloudy persecutions that were in that time For during that time our Religion was onelie professed and embraced in the Church and verie little or nothing was there of those opinions for the which especiallie wee account your Religion Antichristian vnlesse it were of heretiques and such as had learned it of them in those daies once thought of And after for three hundreth yeares more at least in all the most substantiall pointes of Christian Religion and the greatest questions betwixt vs and you all the ancient doctours and the Christians that liued in their times as wee haue diuerse times sayed so haue wee often so proued it that you shall neuer bee able therein to disproue vs were fully ours And though after these times when Boniface the third had once obteined of that traiterous murderer Phocas the Antichristian title of Oecumenicall or vniuersall Bishop the mysterie of iniquity did euery day work more plainelie then other hasted to his height yet as I haue shewed in my answere to your publishers preface and in the sixteenth Chapter of this my answere to your selfe where you bragge againe as you doe here of 1500. yeares antiquity and continuance there were after these times from time to time that both spied the growth and proceeding thereof and set themselues against it For Bertram Iohannes Scotus were with vs against your grosse real presēce aboue 700. years ago Trithemius maketh mētion of a booke writen 400. yeares ago which is supposed was writen by one Arnulphus for as Sabellicus and Platina testifie much about that time was hee put to death of the Romish cleargie in which booke the authour grieuously complaineth of the enormities amongst the saied Cleargie and findeth many faultes in the Romish Church Gisburne also in his storie writeth that in the yeare 1158. Dulcinus Nauarensis and Gerrhardus preached earnestly that the Pope was Antichrist and that they had thirtie followers whom they brought into England who were persecuted then here for preaching that and other such like doctrine against the Romish Church Much about this time but somewhat rather before a company of Christians who by your Prelates were nickenamed Albigenses did florish and there were great multitudes of them euen about Tholossa whereof you Master Albine are called Archdeacō who did vehemently resist your Pope and his proceedings setting vp vnto themselues a Bishop whom they called Bartholomew oppugning the grosse pointes of your Religion euen as wee doe witnesse Nicolas Triuet and others in their Stories Hildegarde though shee were a Nunne yet in the yeare 1146. prophesied the ruine of your kingdome at Rome and bitterly inueighed against the wickednesse of your Cleargie and Friers So did Geffery Chaucer about the same time namely in his Dialogue called Iacke Vpland very saltly taunt and deride the vanity of your frierly superstition In the yeare 1164. was Petrus Valdus a citizen of Lions whose followers after had giuen them diuerse names to disgrace them withall For your frendes call them Waldenses Albigenses pauperes de Lugduno Picardos Boslauienses Thaboritas and Leonistas changing their titles and names according to the diuersities of places and times they liued in howsoeuer their Religion was all one And these haue beene of ancient time and of great continuance in very many places namely in Prouince Sarmatia Lyuonia Bohemia Morauia Polonia Silesia Belgia and in Calabria and of you wheresoeuer or whensoeuer they were they haue beene cruelly persecuted for heretiques and yet if their opinions bee iudged of not as you the more to disgrace them haue charged them but as they in their owne confessions of their faith and Apologies haue set them downe they in many thinges helde the verie same that wee doe and condemned the same for errours in you that wee now doe They are of 400. yeares continuance at least For Aeneas Syluius a man of your owne for he was Pope ere he died writeth handling the stories of Boeme that they had continued vnto his time from the yeare 1160. And Gulielmus Paruus writeth that their doctrine was examined in Oxforde and found sound concerning God and the merites of Christ for your doctrine concerning the iorning of our owne merites with Christes to make vp full satisfaction and redemption is of farre later inuention and their life saieth hee was commendable but in the doctrine of the Sacrament they were found to differ from the Church of Rome Yea Reinerus a writer 300. yeares ago who as he himselfe saith was often at the examination of them in his booke of inquisitions writing of them calling them Leonists confesseth that some saied they had continued from Syluesters time and that some saied they had beene euen from the time of the Apostles he further reports that they had great shew of holy life in liuing iustly before men and that they beleeued all things well of God and all the articles contained in the creede onely he chargeth them that they hated blasphemed the Romish Church And this he further writes that there was no land wherein that sect did not creepe speaking but of thē that were thē but in one cuntrey yet this he testifieth that they had there ten schooles in one parish called Camach that there were forty congregations or Churches of them euery one hauing their leaders or teachers and that their power in his time was such that none as hee saieth durst then openlie resist them There are yet to bee seene as good authours report the consultations and records of the proceedings of foure great Bishops in France against them writen three hundreth yeares ago namely of Narbonensis Arelatensis Aquensis and Albanensis yea 355. yeares ago I read there was a Councell kept in Tholossa especially against them And yet though both of ancient times and later daies the Synagogue of Rome hath sought to roote them out by all possible cruelty they and their successours continue vnto this day in great numbers in Bohemia and in other places But because you very
hundred yeares haue beene at contention yet doubtles are not agreed about the conception of the Virgin Mary whither it were in sinne or no about diuers sundry other great mysteries of their religion Yea euen in the Sacrament of the body and bloude of Christ wherein they would seeme to be at greatest vnity yet if a man were disposed to note the diuers opinions therein amongst themselues he should scarse euer knowe when to make an ende For there be some of them that holde that there Christs body is torne and chewed with the teeth as it appeareth in the Recantation that they prescribe to Beringarius others as Guymund de Consecra Dist 2. thinke that too grosse Some as Gardener would haue Hoc to signifie indiuiduum vagum a certaine thing that is but they cannot tell what others now would haue it to note that which is vnder the accidentes of bread and wine Scotus and Innocentius the fourth holde consecration to be not by the fiue wordes but by Christs blessing others holde now that it is done by the fiue wordes When it commeth to the eating some holde that it entreth the mouth but no further others wil haue it to passe into the stomacke but not into the guttes others wil haue it to go thither also Infinite are the questions that they are fallen into about this matter And in their last conuenticle at Trident where they had hoped to haue healed all these sores yet euen then there grew a great contention betwixt two great captaynes of theirs Archbishop Catharinus and Frier Soto and that about no small matters namely about assured confidence of the fauour of God Predestination originall sinne free-will and such like matters Insomuch that for all the councell could doe for six yeares together they continuallie went on in writing bookes bitterly one against another The same Catharin also wrote a booke against Caietan a Cardinall laying therein to his charge 200. errours CoÌ„tention also the same Catharin had with FraÌ„ciscus Torrensis a man otherwise of his owne faction about single life of priests residence of Bishops both which the one helde was as hee taught therein warranted by Gods worde the other stoutly holding the contrary In the Articles of iustification free grace and originall sinne Ruard Tapper a great Papist and Deane of Colen in his second tome wrote against Piggius an Archpiller of that Synagogue contending to proue that he was deceiued and erred in those pointes But what should I take vpon me to reckon vp the contentions and controuersies that are amongst them For certaine it is they are so many and infinite that a man if he were disposed might write a booke of a whole quire of paper consisting onely of a bare recitall of the differences of opinions that their writers haue set downe in their owne bookes about points and questions of religion And yet see as though there neuer had beene iarre amongst them they brag of vnity amongst the simple and labour our disgrace with the obiection of variety of opinions amongst vs especially about this one point of the maner of Christs reall presence in the sacrament But seeing now hereby in parte you see at what agreement they are I hope you thinke it reason that they should agree better amongest themselues before they insult any more against vs for our disagreement Lastly they doe vs wrong in seeking to disgrace vs and our religion in that since Luther beganne to preach there haue risen vp diuerse and sundrie fonde and foolish heretiques For wee read that immediatly after the Apostles tymes euen within few yeares Epiphanius by his tyme could reckon vp eighty and Augustine more seuerall errours and heresies which in effect did growe togither with the Gospell and yet the Gospell not to be blamed therefore but Sathan who where the good seedes-man sowed good seede vseth to sowe also his tares Matthew the thirteenth And yet it seemeth by Saint Iohns preuention of this obiection that some aswell affected to the Gospell then belike as you be now were ready hereby to discredit both the Apostles and their doctrine But Iohns answere is they went out from vs but they were not of vs for if they had beene of vs they would haue continued vvith vs. But this came to passe that it might appeare that they were not all of vs 1. Iohn 3. Euen so wee answere you concerning those that you say haue any where since Luther risen amongst vs and fallen into heresies Yet further so much the more apparent is the wronge that you offer vs in this behalfe in that not onely you knowe we shun communion with them as wel as you but that also it euidently hath appeared to the world that wee haue beene both the first and the forwardest in detecting of them and in confuting of them from time to time Wherfore I conclude that hitherto you haue saied nothing of any force for the iustification either of your vocation Church or religion The V. Chapter THe like vnto this is confirmed by Vincensius Lyrinensis of whom we haue spoken before for he saith in the booke aboue named that that person ought to be esteemed a true Catholicke a This rule is sound and good but it quite ouerthroweth popery because it cannot be proued to be this ancient Catholique faith For â—he contrary is certaine both by scripture and all sound antiquity that hath nothing in greater coÌ„meÌ„dation then the true religion of the Catholick faith yea although it were the wisest man in the world and the greatest Philosopher and the fairest speaker that euer was if he came to speake against the old doctrine that hath beene taught vs of our forefathers time out of mind we ought saieth he to disdaine that learned Clarke with al his philosophy cuÌ„ning to holde our selues to the ancieÌ„t opinion of the church the which hath continued vntill this present day b But such as all popery and no part of our religion And if that nowe one should bring a new doctrine that was not heard of before contrary vnto that that hath euer bene taught in the Church say that it doeth not appertaine vnto the state of the Catholicke faith that it is no religioÌ„ but a temptation And therefore if we wil be saued we ought to liue and die in that faith that hath continued by succession of Pastours euen froÌ„ Christs time vnto these daies S. Irenaeus a very famous writer Lib. 4. contr haer cap. 65. in his fourth book against heresies the 65. Chapter who was within a few yeares of the Apostles Archbishop of Lions writeth the very like c Proue your religion now to bee the same that was in Irenaeus time and then you say something his testimony make for you otherwise not and this is impossible saying that the true faith the true knowledge of God is the doctrine of the Apostles the ancient estate of the Church throughout the world
neuer hauing proued either of these nor yet being able to doe it you should cōclude that your prescription against our doctrine which you call newe at your pleasure though indeede it be most ancient witnesse the olde testament and the newe much rather ought to take place then his in his time against heretiques that then taught diuerse basphemous heresies directly against the scriptures You say our Religion hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false pernitious heretique But you doe but say thus you proue it not nor euer shall For it was both heard and knowen many 100. yeares before yours was hatched and if euery one were so condemned that taught it then was Christ and his Apostles so condemned For vnlesse by scriptures we can proue ours to be the same that theirs was wee aske no fauour at your hands And as long as we can doe so the more we and our predecessours haue beene condemned by you the more we knowe we haue beene blessed of God Now whereas you say in this Chapter further that Irenaeus did withstand heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles adding your glosse that is to say by doctrine not writen but deliuered from hand to hand and so receiued from age to age frō the Apostles to that time therein through the ambiguity of the word Tradition craftsly you seeke to deceiue your simple reader and indeede you giue a glosse that corrupteeh the text For let that place of Irenaeus in his third booke and second Chapter be perused and that also which followeth in the third Chapter of the same booke though either you or the Printer mistaking it send vs to the fifth Chapter where the wordes are not which you cite and most euidently it shall bee proued that though Irenaeus haue there the words by you cited yet by the traditiōs of the Apostles which he speaketh of there he meaneth no doctrine nor points of doctrine as you doe vsually by that word contrary or besides that which was also taught in the word writen For the question was of God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ which Valētinian Marcion denied against whō he there sheweth that he fought first with the scriptures wherewith when they were vrged he saith they are turned streight into an accusation of the scriptures as though they were not right had not authority might diuersly be takē saying further that trueth could not be found of them by those that are ignorant of traditiō For the trueth was not deliuered by them but by liuely voice that therefore Paul saied we speake wisedome amongst them that are perfect not the wisedōe of this world And this wisdome to euery one of them saieth he is that which he himselfe hath deuised Of which heretiques their wordes yours when you are called to the touchstone of the scriptures are so like vndoubtedly you haue learned to plead against the scriptures for your vnwritten traditions Now when thus he had shewed how the heretiques in his time shunned triall by the scriptures and appealed to tradition he goeth on and sheweth that when he was contented to come to the traditiō of the Apostles kept obserued in the church downe from the Apostles to those times by succession of pastours then they resisted tradition also saying that they were wiser then either those pastours or the Apostles themselues and so indeede neither by the scriptures nor yet by making demonstration vnto them that the same doctrine taught in the scripture was also deliuered by liuely voice first by the Apostles and so receiued from age to age and continued in by those pastors of whose successiō he speaketh could stop their mouthes And thus any mā of meane capacity may perceiue that in these places Irenaeus his drift only is to shew the heretiques that the doctrine which he taught concerning God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ first was warranted by the Apostles writings and then also taught by them by liuely voice and so deliuered and continued from hand to hand amongst the faithfull pastours succeeding one another euen vnto that time And that he calleth this the tradition of the Apostles and not as you falsly expound him doctrine vnwriten beside or contrary to that which is writen as the Popish traditions you striue for bee if you had beene disposed you might haue learned in the 1. Chapter of the same booke where he saieth That which first they preached after by the wil of god tradiderunt nobis they deliuered vs in writing to be the foundation and piller of our faith And indeede it is an vsuall thing with the fathers of the primitiue Church often by the tradition of the Apostles to vnderstand the very same doctrine which is conteined in their writings Herein therefore so likewise in all other points in controuersy betwixt vs it is a cōmon tricke with you papists to vrge the fathers wordes quite contrary to their true meaning But because you first and namely bring in Irenaeus for your vnwriten traditions which is the window indeede that you would haue faine left open vnto you for then thereby you hope you may thrust in and vpon the Church what you list and so countenance thereby your Antichristian doctrine when all other shifts faile let vs see whither this cannot yet further be made manifest out of him He as Eusebius reporteth Hist Eccles lib. 4. cap. 14. saied that Polycarpe taught that one and sole trueth which he had learned of the Apostles quae Ecclesia tradit which the Church deliuereth forth Where of necessity by those things which the Church deliuereth by tradition that he there speaketh of you may not vnderstand any other but those which haue warrant from the word writen and in no case those things that are besides that or cōtrary thereunto for then hee would not haue called that which Polycarpe preached the one and sole trueth for questionles those things are true that are conteined in the scriptures And this clearely appeareth if you marke the wordes as they are in Irenaeus himselfe in his 5. booke 20. cap. that Eusebius hath relation vnto which are these Polycarpe did mention or teach those thinges which he had heard of the Apostles that is all things agreeable to the scriptures Againe the same Irenaeus in his 3. booke and 3. cap. which is one of the Chapters by you before alleadged saieth that vnder Clement the Church of Rome wrought to the Corinthians shewing them quam traditionem what tradition of late they had receiued of the Apostles that is to say that God the father almighty and so forth as is expressed in Moyses is the father of our Lord Iesus Christ And that he is so taught to bee of the Churches saieth hee they that will learne may by the Scriptures and so they may vnderstand the Apostolique tradition of the Church Where it is most cleare that he telleth vs himselfe
that by the Apostolique tradition he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father which before they wrote the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice afterward as it appeareth they set down in writing Is this thē honest dealing in you to make your Reader beleeue that he meant of vnwriten doctrine such as the is for which you we striue seeing he telleth you himselfe that by the Apostolique tradition of the church you are to vnderstād this doctrine of God the father most plainely plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures You might haue learned of S. Paul 2. Thes 2.15 that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tradition may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture as that which is deliuered by word of mouth where the Apostle as then very litle of the new testamēt being writen and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed saith Hold fast brethrē the documēts deliuered you whither by word or by our Epistle But you are the lesse to be blamed the more to be borne withall for this your wilful thus abusing your reader because the making or marring of your church and Religion stādeth vpon vnwriten verities or rather forgeries which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions For there are few or none of those points of Religiō wherein we differ from you and striue with you about but your owne great champions haue confessed haue their ground from hence and not from the scriptures As any man that will take the paines to reade them may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme in the 5. booke 100. c. of Lindans panoply where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them vs in Religion and when they haue done plainely cōfesse the ground thereof to be but tradition And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church Religion at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning cānot examine your quotations it is not your fault here alone but the cōmon fault of you all where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwritē traditiōs To preuēt you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple I would wish thē all others to mark how flatly against your vnwritē vnwarāted traditiōs by the writē word the fathers with one consent haue writē for the absolute sufficiēcy of the scriptures Besides that which you heard out of Irenaeus Tertulliā to this purpose Irenaeus saieth further in his fifth book we must run to the Church be brought vp in her bosō nourished with the scriptures of god And Tert against Hermog writeth Let Hermogenes shew that it is writen if it be not writē let him fear that wo that is threatned or appointed to the adders or takers awaie As for Origen we haue heard him tel vs before that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures haue no credit in his 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth against Idol Hillarie saieth it is wel that we are content with those things that are writen in his third booke of the Trinity Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede that all things that Christ did are not writen but hee saieth those things are writen which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie Homil. 9. saieth If there be anie thing needefull either to learne or to bee ignorant of we shall learne it in the Scriptures and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome wee read these golden words They that be in Christianity let them flee to the Scriptures because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity but by the Scriptures To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth that it is a most euident argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen or bring any thing not writen seeing the Lord saieth My sheepe heare my voice and they follow not the voice of a strāger in his treatise of true and godly faith Where also he noteth that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men most vehemently forbiddeth that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God or which God forbid saith he be added thereunto And therefore he in Moral Reg. 26. saieth further Whatsoeuer we say or doe it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth that seeing faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture seeing it is not of faith must needes be sinne and therefore he addeth in that rule let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides Hierome vpon Agge cap. 1. saieth those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise as though they came by Apostolique tradition without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture the sword of God striketh who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth that which hath not authority frō the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And contra Heluidium he saieth we beleeue it because we reade it and we beleeue it not because we reade it not August against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke writeth That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles by which bookes we iudge of all other writings both of the faithfull and of the Infidels out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose especially that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap Damascen is as plaine as any of these in his 1 booke of right faith cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt c. All thinges saieth hee which are deliuered vs by the Prophets Apostles and Euangelists we embrace wee acknowledge reuerence beyond those seeking no further For all things concerning faith and maners he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited out of the ancient fathers for they are full of them whereby it sufficiently appeareth that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them of the sufficiency of the scriptures If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall consēt as often times you will
but especially their doctrine hath bene directly contrary in a multitude of most material points of Christian religion to the doctrine taught vs in the Scripture as I shew in diuers places of this booke wee haue as we are counselled Apocal. 18. seperated our selues froÌ„ you and them least by holding society with you in these your sinnes we should in the iustice of God haue beene driuen also in the end to bee partakers with you in your plagues And therefore to conclude this chapter though you bragge that you haue two things to quiet your consciences withal that you beleeue a doctrine that your pastours the vniuersal Church haue taught you 1500. years and that their ill liues cannot hurt you yet in deede and trueth you haue neither of both for your ill liues being ioyned with ill doctrine hath bereaued you of both so you haue had nether the vniuersal Church of Christ but a particuler Synagogue of your own nor any sound or good pastour either for life or religion these 600 or 700 yeares to teach you your faith The X. Chapter NOw to turne vnto the taking of your accompts maie it please you to shew vs how you haue followed the steps of the flocke of Christ according to the counsel that we gaue to his reasonable sheepe as we haue saied before who hath taught you the way that you doe follow what doctours were your first tutors who hath taught you that the precious body of our Sauiour is not really in the Sacrament of the Altar who hath taught the doctrine or if it be not griefe vnto you heresie which you would haue vs to receiue as a Gospell I know before hand that you will alleadge me Iesus Christ and his holie Apostles whose steppes you doe professe to follow preaching euery where that there is no difference betweene your Church or to say trueth Synagogue the church of the Apostles But I pray let me vnderstand by what means you can ioine your selues vnto the Church of the Apostles seing that a This is an impudent vntruth you condemne cut off all the Christians that haue beene are betweene you them For to verifie this I will alleage no other but your owne workes for Caluin in his Institutions at the Treatise of the Supper of the Lord speaking of the oblation of the bodie of our Sauiour Christ as it was offered in olde time he doeth write punctuallie these wordes Caluinus in suâ institutione traditâ de Coenâ Domini I finde saieth he that those of old time haue changed this fashion otherwise then the Institution of our Sauiour did require seeing that their supper did represeÌ„t a certaine spectacle of a strange inuention or at the least of a new maner There is nothing more sure vnto the faithful theÌ„ for theÌ„ to holde themselues vnto the pure ordinance of the Lord by whoÌ„ it was called a supper to the ende that onely his authority may be our rule Yet it is true that when I consider their good meaning and that their intent was neuer to derogate froÌ„ the onely sacrifice of Christ I dare not condeÌ„ne theÌ„ of folly and yet I thinke that one cannot excuse theÌ„ that they haue not somewhat failed in the exteriour forme for they haue followed more the Ceremonies of the Iews theÌ„ the order of Iesus Christ did permit And this is the point in which they ought to be resisted for they haue conformed to much vnto the old TestameÌ„t not contenting theÌ„selues with the simple institution of Christ they haue to much inclined themselues vnto the shadowed Ceremonies of the Iewes law These are Caluins words The Reader may by them see well how this noble Reformer of the Gospel doeth correct al ages and Churches bee they of Martyrs CoÌ„fessours Doctours Interpreters Preachers or any others from the Apostles time vnto our age yet doeth he not denie but that hauing some regard of their simple ignoraÌ„ce he is content to be so good to theÌ„ as for this time not to condemne their errour or impietie because that which they did was with a good intent but yet fearing that the bearing them to much fauour would trouble his conscience he giueth sentence against them saying that a Yet this proueâ—h not that for the which you alleadged him they ought to be resisted because they were not content with the onely institution of Christ but rather that in this case they haue followed the shadowes of the Iewes Now for my part I thinke Caluin his fellowes so scrupulous that they would not ioine themselues vnto persons that are spotted with Iewish Ceremonies b Are you not ashamed thus to bely him is it not euidâ—nt in his words that hee speaketh but onely of some in olde time And because that all maner of people how wise soeuer they were from the Apostles time vntill our daies haue fallen into this errour he doeth counsel my masters his deformed followers according to his sentence to follow none of them at al but only the pure word of the Lord preached by Iesus Christ and by his aboue mentioned Apostles The X. Chapter IN that by the Scriptures we are able to iustifie our doctrine and therfore diuerse times haue called vpon you to come to that trial and yet cannot by any means bring you vnto it that we are sure that that doctrine therein warranted hath alwaies by God by the meanes he hath appointed for that purpose beene preserued and continued in his Church You returning now againe to take accounts of vs how we haue followed the flocke of Christs sheep that weÌ„t before vs fed by the tents of his shepheards are answered And yet for your better and more plaine satisfying who hath taught vs the way that we follow who were the Doctours that were ouâ— first tutors we answere you that Christ his Apostles EuaÌ„gelists in the new Testament were our first tutors since them in the principal points of our religion the aucient Fathers whose names and monumeÌ„ts are knowen vnto the Church that liued for 1000. years after Christ those that I named vnto you before in my answer to your 4 Chapter But particulerly you would know of vs who hath taught vs to deny the reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament of the altar Here I suppose you meane by real presence that real presence which is in this case now taught and receiued in your Church vnder the formes of bread and wine to the mouthes of al receiuers be they faithful or faithlesse for otherwise none of vs doe deny a true and most certaine presence of Christ to the faith of the right receiuer This theÌ„ being your meaning we do not onely as you suppose answere you that we haue learned of Christ his Apostles to deny it but also of al the ancieÌ„t writers of credit accouÌ„t in the Church for 700 or 800 years togither since we haue bene coÌ„tinued in the same
ministers of our Church and Religion and no maruell that they that are not light headed send vs to preach in new found landes c. This in effect you haue often saied and if that will serue you will not sticke with vs to say it in euerie Chapter But this being indeede the question whereupon the determinatioÌ„ of the whole controuersie betwixt you and vs dependeth namely whither our Religion bee not the true ancient Religion taught by Christ and his Apostles for you to passe it ouer thus with bare words and neuer to go about soundly to proue that it is not is but too too childish and ridiculous Well may you in your owne conceite and in the opinion of the simple silly reader seeme herein to haue done a great act but in the iudgement of any of meane witte capacity howsoeuer you may bee counted a wordy man yet you shall neuer be accounted a worthie champion to fight in this greatest question onely with bare wordes The XV. Chapter YOV will saie to me that this argument ought to take place in an ordinarie commission but a Though in such times estates of the Church wherein Luther and some others liued there were iust occasion why God should stirre vp men extraordinarily to serue him yet you know well enough that both he and others whose calling you most cal in question were not without an ordinary outwarde calling of men yours is extraordinary as that was of the Prophets of the olde Testament whom God did sende to correct the Scribes and Pharises and that euen so God hath inspired you and others of your sect to the like effect that is to say to correct the superstitious liues and doctrine of the Papists Idolaters and by this as farre as I can see ye are coÌ„missaries of God in his behalfe yee maie saie wel with S. Paul although yee haue not bene rauished vnto the third heauen * Gal. 1. that ye are not sent by man or of man but by the authoritie of our Sauiour Christ But what would you saie if we should speake against it as a number doe and that to reuenge this quarell we should write against your commission we might well aide our selues with a Sillogisme of our Sauiour Christ if we would come to pleade the matter which is this c* This argument the contrariety betwixt your religioÌ„ Christs being as it is proues neither your Church nor Priests to be of God He that is of God doeth obey *b Joh. 6. b Iohn the eight you would haue saied the word of God but you doe not obey the word of God therefore yee are not of God I knowe that you will denie the Minor and therefore it doeth appertaine to vs to proue it Christ doeth saie * Mat. 22. a In this particuler respect witnes your Popes vsurping ouer Christian Princes none were euer more â—uilâ—y in denying to Cesar that which is Cesars then you Giue vnto Cesar that that appertaineth to Cesar and to God that that appertaineth to God That is to saie to speake familierlie giue Geneua vnto his Lord and the Bishopricke vnto his Bishop Now you doe not obeie this commandement therefore as one that doeth not appertaine vnto God you haue prouided your selfe a new master And because we would not haue some to thinke that we that are not of the cuntrie doe beare false witnes against you or that we doe it without hauing anie interest vnto the matter b Nay the euidence of the matter sheweth that your owne sauage dealings contrary to the publicke edicts of that cuntrey hath caused the stâ—rs there and now of late you haue reuiued them by open treason and rebellion I am sure that all the world doeth know that yee haue set all France in as ill an estate as ye haue done the Dukedome of Sauoy In that that appertaineth to the Church is there anie Bishoprick or Dioces left where ye haue not sought with al your power to preach your holie doctrine where haue ye forgotten that that Saint Paul doth saie which is * Rom. 10. how shal they preach if they are not sent What right haue you to come to reape other mens corne Doe not you remember that that Tertullian doeth write against your elders that did persecute the catholique Church against whom he saieth in his c This TertulliaÌ„ would surely haue saied of you â— he had liued in these daies booke de praescriptione haereticorum What are yee and from whence doe yee come By what right O Marcian doest thou cut downe my woode Why doest thou O Appelles remoue my landes And a little after he sayeth the place is mine I haue beene thus long time in possession and before thee I haue good title and euidence to maintaine my right of those to whom it did appertaine which left it me by inheritaÌ„ce from the Apostles c. Our church of France which is one of the principal members of all the Catholique Church might with good cause saie vnto you the like And I praie what would you answere You cannot denie but that d If this were true as it is false that your religioÌ„ were a thousand yeares olde yet being no elder it is too young by fiue hundreth yeares at the least to be the true religion aboue a thousand yeares before ye were borne that the faith in which yee were baptized and the which you haue falselie denied was planted I doe not saie in this onelie kingdome of France but ouer all Christendome If you pretende any right to the contrarie shew the reason of your possession by the euidence of the e This we can haue often done already ancient doctours and after come to demande it as I haue saied before I meane that you should yeelde the ecclesiasticall gouernment which you haue vsurped in manie places with too great libertie of conscience and licence to doe euill which is the verie death of the soule f S. Augustines words are these quae est pejor mors anima quam libertas erroâ—is as Saint Austine doeth saie Epist 166. And after that yee haue restored France to his olde estate then there will be more apparence of the matter that ye are sent to preach the true word of God then there is now But is this estate that yee are although that God had giuen you commission the which he neuer thought he would haue called it backe because of your noble actes Theodosius and g Areadius I think you ment Arcades which in olde time were Emperours of Rome L. si quis in tantam cod vnde vi did establish or make al Edict that if the true owner or lord of a thing should vse anie force or to seeke by the waie of violence without staying for the senteÌ„ce of the Iudge h Euen thus you and your predecessours got possession of your places therefore by this law you haue but right
ministers either are the authours of any wronge to the Duke of Sauoy or that either they or their followers were the cause of the ciuil warres and troubles in France If the Duke of Sauoy haue any such right to Geneua as you pretend and that it be withholden from him it beeing a ciuil quarrell betwixt him and the states ciuil of those parts why should it be layed to the charge of the ministers who you cannot proue haue had any intermedling therein And as for the troubles in France it appeareth by the stories thereof that they haue proceeded first from your owne side and that the doings of the protestant Princes there haue oftentymes beene iustified euen by the Kings owne edictes and proclamations to haue beene done in all loialty and that their warres haue beene but defensiue against the oppressions offered them contrary both to the ancient lawes and present edictes of the Land by certayne ambitious persons and not offensiue either to the Kings person or dignity And as for your Bishops and Priestes of whose being driuen from their lyuings by our men you complayne so much in some sorte I confesse thorow their occasion indeed they haue beene dispossessed thereof but that seditiously or tumultuously by force they haue beene driuen there from by them we vtterly deny For in most places they haue beene dispossessed thereof by mature deliberation and consideration of the badnes of their titles thereunto in solemne and lawfull assemblyes of the estates of the countries by the lawfull authority of the same estats as namely here with vs in EnglaÌ„d in Scotland and in other kingdomes where the Gospell is receiued and established by publique authority and by the same authority orderly our men whose right thereunto in those assemblyes and Parliamentes haue beene founde to be the better haue beene put into possession thereof And in other places your Bishops and Priestes as not able to stand in the presence of the light of the Gospell when will they nill they they sawe it would take place in their territories forsooke their places and left them to those that had more right thereunto as for example they did in Geneua when the Gospell was first established there And no marueile though vpon the bare preaching of Gods trueth and the entertainment thereof many of your proude Bishops and superstitious Priestes can stand no loÌ„ger in their places For when the Arke of God came in presence Dagon could staÌ„d no longer though his frends set him vp againe neuer so often yea the more they stroue to haue him stand the more dangerous fall got he as you may read 1. Sam. 5. And it cannot be leâ—ted but Christes saying will take place and be verified one time or other Euery plant that my heauenly father hath not planted shall be plucked vp by the rootes Matth. 15.13 whereupon it commeth indeed that the proude prelates of your Antichristian Hierarchie hauing gotteÌ„ vnto themselues titles and offices through the ambitious and fond deuise of mens heads which God neuer allowed to be for his house must needes when God meaneth to reforme his house and to establish his owne orders therein auaunte their roomes and leaue their liuinges for the Lordes true officers and allowed seruantes indeede Blame therefore the badnesse of your foundation and title for leesing of your liuings and nothing else You bid vs shew our euidence that our right to them is better then yours out of the ancient doctours In the meane tyme you apply Tertullians wordes in his booke of Prescription against heretiques against vs and that of Paul How shall they preach vnlesse they bee sent Romans 10. I answere you not onely out of the ancient doctours but out of the Canonicall Scriptures also our ministers long ago haue made euident demonstration vnto the Princes and estates that haue driuen you out of possession and put them in that their title to your liuings was good and yours starke naught in that thereby they proued vnto them their religion to be ancient sound and Apostolique and yours to be but of a later Antichristian stampe though you according to your maner say we cannot deny but that your religion was planted throughout Christendome 1000. yeares before wee were borne which you shall neuer be able to proue true for wee most constantly deny both that antiquity and vniuersality of it And whensoeuer you will wee are ready againe by the same Scriptures and Doctours to proue our right by the same argument to bee good and sound and yours to be of no force come to the triall of it when and as oft as you will And therefore seeing it is a thing most euident that the reason why either you or we should pretend anie right to these or any other liuinges of the Church is that we feede the Church with wholesome and sounde doctrine wee hauing oft proued ours so to be by the grounds aforesaied and you being neuer able to doe the like for yours both Pauls saying and Tertullians must rather take place against you then vs. For I trust you will confesse that there Paul accounteth none sent of God to preach but those that preach the truth and questionles Tertullian vseth those words of his as by the wordes themselues as they are set downe by you it is euident not against those that were able to proue their doctrine sounde by the Apostles writings but against fantasticall heretiques such as had taught and did teach doctrine dissonant from the Scriptures deuised vpon their owne heades Against whom he being to prescribe both by the Scriptures and by the sounde testimony of those that succeeded the Apostles vntill his tyme he might lawfully and to good purpose say what are yee and from whence doe you come c. And truely when any man shall enter into a consideration of the state of the Church in Tertullians tyme both in respect of doctrine and gouernment and on the one side weigh the simplicity of the pastours and teachers then and the agreement that their doctrine had with the writen word and then therewith on the other side compareth the more then princely prelacy and Hierarchie that hath beene these many yeares and yet is in yours ioyned with doctrine not only manifoldly differing but in a number of points directly contrarying the word writen hee shall be enforced to thinke that if Tertullian were aliue againe and sawe notwithstanding how confidently you ruffle as though all were yours and no man had any right to any thing but your selues he would more vehemently vse these words here recited by you against your prelates then euer he did against Marcion Apelles or any other heretique in his time But you are so liberall vnto vs as to tell vs that though wee had commission from God yet he would haue called it backe euen for our noble actes and deedes in driuing you out of possession and taking possession though of our own before the sentence of the iudge was giuen Which you
be perceiued that none of these points as they are now taught by you were receiued for catholicke 360. years ago For if when they brake of cōmunion from you these had then beene so accoūted and taken doubtles they had then bene acquainted with these and so by al likelihood had held them as they doe other things which with you they had learned before vnto this day I am not ignorant that not long after in Gregory the tenthes tyme in a councell at Lyons and after that agayne in the Florentine councell labour was made to bring them to cōmunion vnion with you againe and that in the first Michael Paleologus so the better to compasse helpe to keepe his kingdome which with brutish murder he had got and some other of his frends assented vnto a decree to that end and that in the other likewise Iohannes Paleologus Emperour of Constātinople and the patriarch there with some other greeke bishops amongst whom was Bessarion assented in some sort to your Popes title and your doctrin of purgatory But withal good reader I must tel thee that I finde the consenting of the first was so misliked of the rest of the bishops of Grecia when they came home that the stories report that euen therefore they held them that so assented alwaies after as persons cut of from the communion of their Church and when they died denyed them the honour of buriall And that likewise the same stories report not onely that in the later by no meanes they coulde be brought to allow of transubstantiation though there they were vrged much thereunto but that for their yeelding in the other they were so resisted when they came at home by one Marcus the bishop of Ephesus and other bishops that they were brought to recant and to declare merely voide al that they had done there yea moreouer it is recorded in an anciēt register of the church of Herford that in 29. articles there also set down the greek Church differeth quite from your Romā church And therfore hereby it should seeme that these points of popery which it hath not yet receiued were either not at all or at least not vniuersally receaued before the foresaied breach and that therfore these haue not 400 years continuāce on their backs which comes far short of your account of 1500. years Further euident and apparent proofes there are to make it vtterly without all question that both these many other points of the Roman religion that now is are far yoūger then your reckoning For before the coūcel of Cōstance in the yeare 1414. we finde not the ministering the cōmuniō in both kinds publickly forbid to the cōmon cōmunicāt And in the councel of Basil it was permitted againe in the year 1431. to the Bohemiās to receiue vnder both kinds so there from that day to this many haue vsed to doe Certaine it is as it appeares in the first Epistle of Cypriā that in his time with was 260. years after christ it was by him accounted absurd to deny the cup to any communicant de consecratione dist 2. it is recorded that Gelasius who was a bishop of Rome about the yeare 500 made a flat decree to binde al men to receiue in both kinds saying Either let him that receiueth receiue both or neither because the diuision of one mistery cannot bee without sacrilege and yet now your Popes their councels which you hold cannot erre condēne it for a cursed heresie to holde it to be needful that this sacrament should be receiued of al communicants in both kinds And it appeares in the same distinction Cap. peracta That Pope Calixt in the yeare 223 made a flat lawe contrary to your receiued vse now of your priests receuing al alone For there he decrees that cōsecratiō being done al that wil not be shut frō the church should cōmunicate for so saith he the apostles taught the fashiō thē of the Romā church was How is it thē that your Roman Church that now is contrary to this ancient decree thus grounded both vpon the authority of the Apostles the practise then of that church in this point now practiseth the quite contrary Trāsubstantiation the very life of your masse your owne doctor Tonstal in his book of the sacramēt diuers other of your frēds as I haue shewed before Cap. 11. cōfesse was not enacted decreed for a catholicke truth amōgst your selues before Innocēt the 3 time 1215 in the Laterā coūcel which was after the greeke church was gone from you so it was rather the decree of a particuler assembly then of the Catholique Church and therefore no marueile though the Greekes reiect this your councel and decree Your owne schoole-men Canonists and Croniclers as Durand Albertus Gabriel Biel Innocentius Vrspergensis and others shew from point to point and frō peece to peece who inuented deuised your masse withall the ceremonies thereof as also Polidor in his 5. booke and 9. Chapter of the inuentours of things and Platina in the liues of the Popes and namely in the life of Pope Sixtus the first It was so long a licking before it came to the shape it now hath and was patched together as it appeares in these and other your owne writers by so many Popes so long distant one from an other in time that it would require a good pretty long treatise to set downe the seuerall shreds and morselles thereof with the authours and deuisers of them Which things considered it is the likest a beggers cloake consisting of an infinite sort of patches at sundry times and of sundry colours sowed and cobled together that can be The masse now vsed in your church commonly called S. Gregories masse was first receaued and established in the time of Pope Adrian 780. years after Christ at the least for others accoūt it more as witnesseth Durand Nauclere Iacobus de voragine in the life of Gregorie the first for before that S. Ambrose Lyturgie was much in vse And the last of these authours reports that when with much a do Adrian had got it to bee decreede in a councell that S. Gregories masse should be vniuersally vsed and Charles the Emperour had laboured both by faire and foule meanes to cause the same decree to bee executed and yet many would hardly be drawen from the vse of Saint Ambroses one Eugenius seing this stir about it gaue the Pope this graue aduise that the bookes of both the Lyturgies should be layed vpon the altar of S. Peter and that the Church dores should carefully be shut and sealed with the signets of sundry Bishops and that then they should giue themselues all that night to earnest prayer that God by some euident signe might shew which of thē he would haue to be vsed whose counsell being in euery point followed in the next morning when they went into the church they found as saieth the story onely S. Ambrose booke opened and lying vpon the
deal with such an one as he had thē to approue his calling by miracles wheras ours in this is far more substātiallie iustified by the scriptures frō whēce our doctrine hath warrāt that hath wrought this effect then it could haue by miracles For as whē the law was first published with al the ceremonies therof it was needful because thē it was new that Moses credit the publisher therof the law it selfe should be cōfirmed by miracle but whē in the raigne of Iosiah Hilkiah the priest foūd the booke of the law which had lien hid before a long time so did but reuiue or renue the same law that was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles he wrought no miracles neither was there any called for or looked for at his hāds for it was needles Euē so whē the ceasing of the ceremonial seruice of the law was to end the new priesthood of Christ to come in place thereof so withal that then first it should be notified both to Iew and gentile who was and is the very person of the Messias what new gouernment sacraments he would haue in his house it was necessary that miracles should be wrought to confirme the ministry of thē that should teach these new strange thinges first vnto the world but now these things hauing bene already then sufficiently cōfirmed by miracles we comming in these later daies of the world and not taking vpon vs to preach any other doctrine then the former and so onely renuing and reuiuing the knowledge of that which by the ignoraunce and wickednes of former times had lyen in great part hid no more at our hands ought miracles to be looked for Indeede if it could be proued but once that we labour to set abroach a new doctrine as you often in wordes charge vs that neuer was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles or if the maner that we vsed to reuiue it by were any other but the ancient ordinary way that God hath alwaies allowed in his Church there were yet some colour of reason why they should bee thus called for at our handes But seeing wee stand vpon that point and haue alwaies done that our religion is the very same and no other that Christ and his Apostles taught which by them in their times was confirmed by miracles and the maner of our dealing to spread the same againe is but the ordinary ministerie of the worde and sacraments by them left for the same purpose vnto the church there is no reason at all in matching vs thus as you doe with Moses and in requiring miracles of vs as of him And vntill you can proue by the scriptures that the doctrine that we preach is false which you neuer shall be able to doe the three places which you cite out of Ieremie 14.27 29. vttered by him to admonish the people in his time to take heede of suffering of themselues to be seduced with the false and lying Prophets that were in those daies make nothing at all against vs nor yet appertaine to the matter in hand which was to proue that seeing we worke no miracles therefore our commission cannot be good in taking vpon vs to reforme you For in these places euē by the words as they are set down by your selfe it most euidently appeares that he warned the people to take heede onely of such Prophets as prophecied falsly in the name of God hauing no vocation from him and labouring to seduce the people by false visions naughty diuinations southsayings and their owne dreames whereas we haue ordinary vocation from God preach nothing but trueth warranted by his word and neuer vse but alwaies abhor the vse of all these meanes that they vsed to seduce the people by But herein most certaine it is that the Lord most plainely forewarneth his people of such as you be For you be they indeede that were neuer sent of Christ but of Antichrist and that preach false doctrine as doeth appeare not only by the dissenting but by the contrariety of your doctrine in a number of points from the vndoubted word of God as I haue noted in sundrie places in this my answere to you and then whom neuer any false Prophets in the world more relied vpon false visions diuinations southsayings fond dreames for indeede they are the best most vsuall pillers grounds of your Popish doctrine For what is more common with you then to the ende these may haue place to complaine and by long rhetoricall discourses to make what shew you can of the obscurity vnsufficiency and vncertainty of the word writen that so with some colour you may shew the triall of your doctrine by that touchstone and all because in your owne consciences you know that it cannot be iustified thereby And then when thus you haue satisfied your selues in weakning what you may the credit of the scriptures to prepare a way for your selues to fly from them then you breake out into commendation of the word vnwriten traditions and liuely practise of the church that so by that window you may thrust in and out to the Church whatsoeuer pleaseth you be it neuer so fond a visiō diuination or dreame of your owne drowsy heads But yet once againe for lacke of miracles howsoeuer the case stand whither we be sent of God or no for your refusing to yeeld vnto vs you thinke you may pleade simplicity and ignorance for your excuse as Abimelech did Gen. 20. especially you say seeing you are willed not to beleeue euery spirit and seeing you reade that the Angell of darknes will sometime trāsforme himselfe into the shape of an Angell of light c. But withall you must remember that you are willed to search the scriptures Iohn 5. so to trie the spirits whither they be of God or no 1. Ioh. 4. For they are able to make the mā of God wise to saluatiō thorowly to furnish him to all good workes 2. Tim. 3. which if you did as you ought thereby you shall be driuen to perceaue that not only our calling is of God but that also we teach the trueth according to the same and that therefore notwithstanding we worke no miracles yet your ignorance cannot be simple ignorance as Abimelechs was but either wilfull or of an idle peeuish negligence and therefore such as cannot excuse you in refusing to beleeue vs. And as it is writen that sathan will so transforme himselfe as you write and that we should take heede what way we take for there is a way that seemeth good and yet leadeth to destruction so you must remember that still the due consideration of the writen word is the meanes to preserue vs frō the dāger of both For thereby Christ hath taught vs to withstand him Mat. 4. euen when he would seeme to fortify his temptations with the word writen it selfe whereby else shall a young man learne to frame his waies aright but by taking heede thereunto according
our ReligioÌ„ to be the true ancient Catholicke faith taught by the Apostles and euer since continued in Christes true Church namely first for that by the Canonicall scriptures we can proue it to be the same that they preached seeing it caÌ„not be denied but their preaching and writing agreed and secondly because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient groundes of the Catechisme the ten coÌ„mandemeÌ„ts the articles of the faith the Lords praier c. And for these causes indeede we most confidently say and aduouch that you doe vs extreame wrong the trueth soundnes of these two reasons notwithstanding either to call our Church or ReligioÌ„ new or thus to call for miracles to confirme it now as though it had neuer beene confirmed thereby before But in all this with you we say nothing to the purpose yet with the indifferent Reader I hope it is to good and great purpose seeing hereby we labour to proue that our church and Religion is not new and but of 40. yeares continuance as here most vntruly you charge it but olde ancient because it agreeth in euery point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechisme All you say to confute this argument of ours is that we haue learned our Catechisme of you otherwise we should not or could not haue come by it Whereunto I answere that if wee had had no better Catechisers then you we had yet beene but badly Catechised and this further you may be sure of your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so crackt with vs if we had not found these parts of the Catechisme either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed and grounded in the Canonicall scriptures vpon your credit we had not receiued them besides as I haue plentifully shewed in the 4. Chapter we haue had in all ages from Christ downe to our owne very manie of our owne Religion that haue continued and from hand to hand deliuered vnto vs these partes of the Catechisme more soundly and faithfully then you haue done so that if you had neuer beene we should farre better and sooner haue learned these things But in the most wise prouidence of God these were in some sort also continued amongst you that so you might be the more without excuse in that notwithstanding the light that migh haue shined vnto you thereby you yet chused rather to walke in grosse and palpable darknesse then in the light thereof And therefore sathan the Prince of darknesse in your Synagogues through the helpe of his vicar generall your Pope and his Chaplaines neuer ceased vntill by one blinde and hellish perswasion or other whatsoeuer Paul had taught to the contrarie 1 Corint 14. he brought to passe not onely that all your Lyturgie and seruice should bee in Latin and rather lying legends permitted to be read in the Churches publickly in the mother tongue then the Scriptures of God but also that these portions of the Catechisme should either not bee learned at all or else onely in the Latin and vnknowen tongue which he knew was all one in effect Otherwise then thus by your good wils how little soeuer we had vnderstoode the latin tongue wee should not nor could not bee suffered to learne them and therefore this learning being altogether wtout edification neither is there any cause why you should brag that we haue learned our Catechismes of you nor why we should accouÌ„t our selues any thing in your debte for the same Further to make it yet more appeare how little beholden we are to you for teaching vs the Catechisme let vs but a little consider euen your most diligent Catechising of men in these three partes thereof here named by you the ten commandements the creede and the Lordes prayer First concerning the ten commandements in steede of one God which there we are commanded to haue you in teaching vs to worshippe Saints Angels your breaden God and your Pope as you doe haue taught vs to worship so many more Gods then one and secondly that your images and idols might staÌ„d to the enritching of your cleargy with the idolatrous offrings vnto theÌ„ it was and is a common trick with you in setting down the commandements in your Catechismes and elsewhere to leaue the second commandement quite out which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them and yet least you should of euery one be spied in finding them but 9. you deuide the tenth into two And as for the other 2. coÌ„mandements of the first table by your ordinary most coÌ„mon practise the people were taught whatsoeuer is there to the coÌ„trary that it very well becommeth them of your schoole vsually to sweare by a number of things that are no Gods and to season all their common talke with oathes of all sortes and to turne the day which should bee kept holy to the Lorde to a daie of the greatest vanitie and impiety of al the daies of the weeke And to proceede to the second table neuer did the Iewes more make the 5. commandement of none effect for loue of their Corban then you haue done to maintaine your infinit orders of monks friers nuns in all contempt and neglect of duety to their pareÌ„ts if once you could entise them into those cloisters How pretious soeuer bloud be yet so small a matter hath it bene with you that your Synagogue is drunke with the bloud of Gods saints and euery varlet is not only easily dispensed withall with you but also often much commended if hee can though neuer so traiterously embrue his haÌ„ds for the furtherance of your kingdome in the bloud of subiect or Prince brother or of whoÌ„ soeuer else And as for adulterie or fornication yea for sinnes against nature not to be named your great Catechisers neuer haue seemed to make reckoning of in that notwithstanding they know that these haue followed in such infinite measure vpon their inforced single life in euerie corner that the stench thereof hath long ago reached vp vnto heauen to pul downe Gods fearce vengeance against you yet rather then they would let go this tricke of hypocrisie they are contented that this â—ench increase stil Your infinite and open sacriledges in building founding your cloisters and Prelacies in spâ—â—â—ing the seuerall parishes of their ordinarie maintenance for their ministers other your innumerable vnsatiable pillings polings of Gods Church your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you couÌ„t heretiques and your ordinary doctrine that bare concupiscence â—s no sinne shew what Catechisers you are for the rest And whereas in the creede we be taught indeede to beleeue onely in the Trinitie in that you vsually teach vs to trust yea in the matter of saluation to a number of things besides and to praie vnto saints and Angels it being plainly taught vs in the word that beside God there is not sauiour Esa 43. and that Christs name is the onely name of
gentiles namely to Augustus Cesar which profes though they were granted to be of sufficient force to proue that the gentiles had thereby some knowledge of the cōming maner of cōming office of such a Messias yet they proue not but that it was notwithstāding a thing newe and not vnderstoode to most of thē neither doe they at all proue but that still the doctrine concerning the particuler person of that Messias namely that Iesus the sonne of the virgin Mary whom the Iewes crucified was he no other was a new doctrine both to Iew and gentile and therefore in that respect it was necessary for the Apostles for all these thinges to confirme that by miracle whereas now amongst vs that beare any waie the name of Christians that doctrine is not newe neither anie thing else that wee preach but to those to whom the ancient doctrine taught in the Scriptures is newe and therefore as yet there remaineth cause sufficient why the Apostles should worke miracles and not wee This also I cannot but tell you of that howsoeuer the Sybilles are reported to haue prophecied of Christ your comparison is verie odious when you saie they did it as fully and as plainelie as anie of the Prophets and that you wrong Augustine too too much in making your Reader beleeue that hee either in the place quoted by you or anie where else ioyneth with you in that malaperte comparison But these comparisons of yours argue the profanenesse of the spirite that directeth your pennes The XX. Chapter THVS you see that Iesus Christ was anounced among the Gentiles before the comming of the Apostles who notwithstanding this did not let to set forth the doctrine that they were sent to preach vvith manie notable miracles although they did not teach but that doctrine that was verie ancient And although that their doctrine vvas newe and vnknowen to the Gentiles yet you cannot alleadge that it vvas so a Yes it is evident that the true doctrine both of his person and office was new and strange vnto thē vnto the Iewes for they beeing studied and learned in Moses lawe they hearde nothing of the Apostles but had beene prophecied by the Prophets Doeth not Saint Paul saie at the beginning of his Epistle to the Romanes that hee was seperated to preach the Gospell the which God promised by the holie Scriptures * Act. 3. Saint Peter talking with the Iewes doeth giue them plainelie to vnderstande that his vvas no newe doctrine because that hee did preach Iesus Christ of vvhom Moses had prophecied long before saying thus * b Deut. 16. God shall raise a Prophet among your brethren b Deut. 18. you would saie you shall obey him as you doe me and hee that doeth refuse it shal be put to death Saint Peter saieth afterwarde All the Prophets that haue beene from Samuel vnto this time doe announce vnto you these daies that is to saie the doctrine that wee doe preach That that the Apostles did preach vnto the Iewes that is to wit the remission of their sinnes by the death and passion of Christ it was no newe thing for as * Act. 10. Saint Peter saied vnto Cornelius All the Prophets haue vvitnessed that those that beleeue in him shall obtaine remission of their sinnes for it had beene so prophecied by Esay c 53 you should haue saied cap. 55. vnto the people aboue eight hundreth yeares saying that hee had laied vpon his sonne all our iniquities as it doeth appeare in his booke in the vvhich he doeth shew himselfe more an Euangelist then a Prophet for there hee doeth vvrite the tormentes of our Sauiour euen as if hee had beene present at his passion Dauid likewise doeth talke of the like where hee doeth mention the extreame affliction of our Redeemer and of the Gall and Isope and the Vinager Daniel did not onelie discrie the death of our Sauiour but therewithall the verie time that he should come And to bee briefe all the Prophets haue announced vnto the Iewes that that the Apostles did preach vnto them Now if wee desire to knowe why this olde doctrine preached aswell to the Gentiles as to the Iewes by the Apostles was confirmed vvith manie miracles vvhich they did in the name of God vvho sent them the cause is this the Deuill had so obscured and hidden the trueth ouer all nations that superstitious Idolatrie had taken place in steede of the true seruice of God so that the poore Painims did not put their trust in one God but in a multitude of Gods And in like maner the true Religion giuen by God to the Israelites had beene troubled and almost cleane abolished by the traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees in the vvhich they did trust for the iustification and remission of their sinnes d And in your owne consciences you cannot but see we haue iust cause The like doe you report of vs and of your great curtesie yee are contente to match vs vvith the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous Paynims placing your selues in the degree of the pure Gospellers and the true children of God taking vpon you the succession of the Apostles and calling your congregation the true Catholicke and Apostolical Church This sounds notablie well but seeing that your cause is absolutely to reforme the Church as they did preaching the ancient doctrine of God as they did and dealing with superstitious Idolaters that cleaue more to the traditions of men thē vnto the pure word of God as the Iewes Seing then that our case is reported vnto the similitude of the Iewes and yours to the Apostles and Prophets how comes it to passe that you doe not as they did seeing that you are sent frō one master Why e Because our doctrine being the very same that theirs was their miracles serue sufficiently to confirme it to take away al excuse from them that will not beleeue it to the worldes ende doe ye not make your commission appeare by signes and miracles seeing that God hath euer done the like heretofore when he hath sent the like Commission to yours The XX. Chapter I haue shewed you my reason in the former Chapter why you must stay for all your premises from the conclusion that you beginne withall in this For howsoeuer some few of them thē heard in some sort that such a Messias either should come or was come yet the particuler person who that same was was first preached by the Angel Gabriel secondly by Zacharie and Elizabeth his wyfe Luke 1. before he was borne then by the Angels to the shepheards the day of his birth after by Simeon and Anna Iohn Baptist the Apostles of Christ and the rest as it followeth set downe in the story Luke 2. c. But you say yet further that though their doctrine concerning Iesus Christ the Messias was vnknowen to the Gentiles yet it was not so to the Iewes for the Apostles preached nothing but that which
had warrant from the law and the prophets as you proue I graunt wel out of the 1. to the Rom. and 10. of the Acts conferring those places with the 53. of Esay though wrong quoted by you and out of the prophecy of Daniel I graunt they preached nothing that ought to haue beene new vnto them forasmuch as euery thing that they preached had ground in the olde Testament but yet as you after seeme to confesse it was growen new not onely to the Gētiles but also to the Iewes in that they were misse-led in the vnderstanding of the prophecies that went before of him both concerning his person and office through their ignorance corrupt glosses interpretations that by false teachers were made thereof Insomuch that when the Messias came and executed his office though indeed all the ancient prophecies were yea Amen in him and most plainly in respect of euery circumstance verified yet they could not be perswaded either that he was such a one in person or office as he was and therefore then once it was necessary by all other good meanes miracles also to confirme the doctrine concerning him which was thorowly done by Christ and his Apostles in their tymes Now whereas hereupon you would inferre that seeing wee match you with the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous Painims and our selues take vpon vs Succession to the Apostles and to the true catholique and Apostolique Church and to reforme you of your errours as they did theirs therefore we preaching that ancient doctrine of God and of his Christ that they did we now also should confirme our doctrine commission by miracles as they did Beside many other there are two principal things that let you from this conclusion The first is that howsoeuer other things were old y they taught of God the Messias yet this was new who was the very person of the Messias Wherin if they had erred though otherwise they had rightly vnderstood the generall doctrine both of his person and office it had bene most dangerous for thē and therefore that doctrine especially is vrged by thē as for example you may see in Peters sermon to Cornelius Act. 10. And for the confirmation of that doctrin they work al their miracles not generally in the name of the Messias but particulerly in the name of Iesus Christ of Nazareth as it appeareth Act. 3.6 c. Which thing in respect of you we haue not for that is a thing agreed on betwixt vs. Another stop to your conclusion is seing that doctrine hath bene once sufficiently confirmed by miracles by Christ and his Apostles that we teach and you haue the same doctrine and miracles set downe in the new Testament whereunto you seeme to giue credit as wel as we it is thenceforth needles for the ministers thereof howsoeuer they meete with people that for Idolatry superstitious errours match the Gentiles the Iewes in the Apostles times to vse any other proofe thē from those records of the scripture which ought now to be accoūted sufficient therefore now the calling for miracles to be out of time To reason therfore as you doe It was necessary for the Apostles in their time to worke miracles Ergo it is necessary also now for vs though our doctrine be the same is besides and without reason And yet for al this we recant no whit for comparing you to the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous heathen For if either be worse then other we thinke it is like to proue your selues in that hauing far better meanes and more knowledge of God and his Christ then they had yet you multiply your Idolatries and superstitious conceites far beyond them And euen for this that notwithstanding your better meanes to keepe you in the waies of God and your more knowledge then they had when Christ and his Apostles came first vnto them to preach this Gospel you match them in grosse Idolatrie and in multitude of superstitions and false opinions is it that God vouchsafing the better to conuert them to worke miracles then thinketh it fit to answere you now as the rich glutton was enforced in the like case ye haue Moses and the Prophets yea also the books of the New Testament and if you will not beleeue them you would not beleeue though one should rise from death againe or what miracle soeuer els were wrought But wher as you suppose that the cause why the Apostles wrought miracles was the blinde Idolatry of the heathen superstitions of the Iews onely and not any newnes of any part of their doctrine you are much deceiued as you may perceiue by that which I haue saied Againe if you would perswade that their doctrine was in no point new because in the doctrine of one God and in the doctrine of the Messias in some points it was not or ought not to haue bene so your logicke is flender For in other points it might be new as I haue tolde you and so in respect thereof though not of the other miracles were necessary But this your obiectiō of lacke of miracles pleaseth you so well that you cannot haue done with it let vs therfore heare what further you can say touching this matter The XXI Chapter YOu doe coniure vs by the name of the liuing God to receiue your Gospel and pure word of God or els you doe threaten vs that you will shake off the dust of your feete in testimonie against vs because that vvee will not beleeue your words But in this matter ye doe alleage a wronge text for we were very simple if we should forsake or remoue the foundation of our Church vpon such an occasion as I vvill shevv by this discourse that doeth followe I am sure that you are not ignoraunt howe that Luther after he began to preach his Gospell was not founde barren for immediatelie after his beginning he did ingender another Gospeller that is to wit Andrew Coralstadius and from thence was produced another called Zuinglius and of Zuinglius Oecolampadius Then Thomas Muncerus considering that he had no lesse the gift of the spirit then the rest hee beganne to forge a newe Gospell of the Anabaptists vvith the which hee thought to gratifie the Towne of Milhouse vvho had receaued alreadie the Gospel of Luther But the Senate of that towne beeing vvearied already with two manie straunge Gospels they aduertised Luther you first Apostle of it And he wrote to them againe that Thomas Muncerus ought not to be receiued if hee could not proue his vocation by some miracle And if you demaund where I haue founde this I saie to you not in the workes of some lying Papist but in the Commentaries of your deare Historiographer master * a Lib. 8. fol. 4. Sleydon vvho hath so good a grace in his writing and is so mooued with the trueth of his spirit a Either you had wondrous ill hap for your quotations or else your printer was too bad for it is
The XXIIII Chapter THe Catholicke Church continuallie hath faithfullie holden doeth holde that our Sauiour Iesus Christ is true God and man hauing taken natural flesh in the wombe of the virgin Marie wholie like vnto ours as touching the corporal essence that is to saie excepted onelie sinne the vvhich bodie he did forme of the verie flesh and substaunce of his mother by the operation of the holy Ghost vvho hath vvrought so notable and excellent a vvorke that tvvo contrary or diuers natures are miraculouslie ioined vnited in one person without confusiō or conuersion of the one substance into the other but by coniunction vnion of them both called by the diuines Hipostatique This doctrine hath euer beene receiued and holden by the Church in equal degree of trueth and reuerence with the rest of the points of religion which now you seeke to abolish And notwithstanding this diuers Ministers and Preachers deriued from the sacred consistories of Valentinus Photinus Manes Theodorus Nestorius Apollinaris Eutichus Macharius Eutiocheus besides a great number of other famous heretickes that I cannot here name haue sought to teach the contrary saying that they were sent from him that sent the Apostles to reforme the Church b Thus at your pleasur◠you father vpon these heretiques to make them resemble vs that the contrary whereof the ancient fathers attribute vnto thē namely that they shunned trial by the scriptures that they accused them of vnsufficiency darkenes and so fled to vnwriten traditions and fond reuelations euen as you doe for al the world not by the Traditions of men which you cal Papistical but by the pure word of God For euen like you my masters did Valentinus his fellowes begin the reformed Church taking vpon them the correction of al the Magistrates and Fathers in times past saying that they did abuse the people because that they taught that Iesus Christ had taken flesh and bloud of the Virgin Marie saying that this vvas a great errour the vvhich ought to be reformed and that the people should beleeue that he brought his bodie from heauen and that he caused it to passe through the wombe of the Virgin Marie as the water doeth through the chanell This Gospel was verie straunge yet the saied Valentinus did not want Scripture as you haue to confirme it interpreting it euen as you doe interpret here in France He did alleage for his text the third of Iohn where Christ doeth saie No person is ascended to heauen but hee that did descende from heauen And therefore did he maintaine that seeing Christ is in heauen and descended from heauen that he tooke no flesh of the virgin Marie Nestorius another notable hereticke did lincke his Gospell to Apollinaris opinion in this case seperating the manhood from God and saying that the sonne of man ought not to be called God for seeing saied Apollinaris that this man is descended from heauen it doeth follow that hee tooke no flesh of the virgin besides this Christ saiethe * Ioh. 6. I am descended from heauen not to doe my will but the will of my father Here hee doeth not speake as one that is God for if it were so he would haue no other wel but the will of his father and so he doeth speake like a man And he saieth that he is descended from heauen for the which cause this same Valentinus did take the conclusion of this Gospel to his aduantage for the third authoritie that is writen in the first to the Corinthians where Saint Paul saieth the first man is of earth earthlie the second is of heauen heauenly The which passage or place is as fit to serue Valentinus opinion as all the places that you and all those that hold your opinion can alleage The XXV Chapter ANother Minister likewise called Apollinaris followed after these sent by the saied master yet according to his saying he did preach the pure word of God affirming that the Church ought to bee reformed which had beleeued that the two natures were cōtained in Iesus Christ that the true religion was to beleeue as it is writen in the 1 of Iohn that the word was indeed become flesh or cōuerted into flesh And to confirme this he did alleage the saied place where S. Iohn doeth say And the word was made flesh whē the catholickes did reply against him saying that the verbe or word tooke flesh not as touching the conuersion of one substāce into another he did fortifie his Gospel with another text where S. Iohn doeth write of the mariage at Canaa where the water was chāged into wine that is to saie as touching the very substance of the water which vvas turned into wine Euen so saieth he that it became at the verie Incarnation of Christ alleaging that that we haue saied And the word was made flesh Arrius which was the most famous hereticke that euer hath bene did pretēd to verifie another gospell his was that our Sauiour Christ had not taken at his incarnation a perfect soule another men haue but that he had onely a body and that his diuinity did supplie the absence of his soule Of this opinion was Apollinaris Theodorus Mossnestenus and Nestorius came after and they did blame the Catholick Church because it did teach the saied vnion called as I haue saied Hipostatique that is to saie of the two natures in one person And they did alleage for their argument a verie subtil reason the which was that God did inhabite within the body of our sauiour as he did within a Temple that is to say by grace and not by being vnited togither And therefore euen as it were a great folly to saie that God is a Temple that so it is to saie that God is a man This Gospell did seeme verie new yet did not they want Scripture to maintaine it a That is not because we haue not plainer places rightly alleaged for proofe of our religion but that in Gods iust iudgement such as you haue eies and ee not and that more plainer then euer I could see anie place to maintaine your heresies Christ did saie vnto the Iewes * Joh. 2. Vndoe this Temple and in three daies I will build it againe He meant it by the Temple of his bodie saieth S. Iohn Then the bodie of Iesus Christ is the Temple of God God is not his temple See whether this be not a notable argument to deceiue the simple man that is not vsed to read how the doctours expound these hard places And moreouer they did alleage S. Paul in the first to the Colloss where hee doeth saie that the plenitude or fulnes of diuinitie doeth dwell in Iesus Christ corporallie they do alleage this place greatly to their purpose to proue that God is b In him as in left out I thin e. a Temple that is to saie by grace not being vnited For the third place they take the 8. of Iohn where
of those men then we shall be this other way Seeing therefore Christ tooke this way himselfe both with the deuil himselfe with his chaplaines both to confute their errours erroneous interpretations to confirme the trueth by searching the scriptures and neither he nor his Apostles sent vs either by word or their example to the high Priests then or vnto any other for resolutioÌ„ of the church or trueth this way as the best only way we thinke all ChristiaÌ„s bound to take And in so doing let not any man despaire but that through the goodnes of God he shal be inabled to trie the spirits to discerne who amongst all other alleadge the scriptures soundliest For we see it is the fashion of our God to reueile his trueth and the misteries thereof to those that be his how simple soeuer when he doeth conceale hide them from the great men of the world Mat. 11.1 Cor. 1. But you say If this may and must be atteined by the grace of the holy ghost obteined of the lord by faithfull inuocatioÌ„ of his name how chanceth it that since Luther for no ancienter you say though it be neuer so false our ReligioÌ„ is you haue not obteined that holy ghost to ende your hoat contentions and debates amoÌ„gst your selues that so you might be at vnity yet amoÌ„gst your selues This is spoken as though it must needes follow that either we haue not faithfully praied vnto God for his spirit or els if we haue that then of necessity there neither could be nor would be any difference of opinions and contentions at all amongst vs. If you be of this mind then the manifold differences schismes sects varieties of opinions that haue beene and yet are in your church as I haue noted cap. 4. argueth in your Logicke that your church neuer yet praied faithfully and effectually for the holy ghost But indeede your argumeÌ„t is naught For it appeareth Ioh. 17. that Christ himselfe praied for vnity amongst his Apostles and all that should beleeue their doctrine no doubt of it he was heard in that he praied for Heb. 5.7 and obteined for his heaueÌ„ly father would deny him nothing and yet you haue heard cap 4. after this there were varieties of opinions and hoate contentions betwixt some of them that doubtles of both parts were within the compasse of Christes praier And therefore that praier of Christ and the prayers of his seruants made to that ende are to be vnderstoode to take place and to be effectuall in that there is so much vnity amongst the true members of the Church atteined thereby as is sufficient to holde them togither in the communion of saints which is if they ioyne togither in holding the foundation and fundamentall points of Religion though otherwise there be differences and hâ—at contentions sometimes amongst them And it may not be thought as you seeme to take it that such prayers either are not effectually made or els there must followe thereupon simply an vniuersall accorde in all things For then Christes prayer was not effectuall in that after Paul and Barnabas were at aâ—arre Act. 15. c. That vnity that you speake of the Church may striue for here but she is not to make her account to atteine vnto it before she come in heauen and bee maried to her husband there And so much vnity there is betwixt vs and those whom we count members of Christes Church with vs as that though there be some variety of opinions and therefore also contention but too much yet we ioyne so togither here in the foundation and other most principal points of our Religion that we doubt not but the Lord hath heard our praiers and graunted vs the spirit of vnity so farre forth as that one daie we hope in heauen all to ioine together in perfect vnity notwithstanding the iarres that otherwise in the meane time to trie vs withall be fouÌ„d amongst vs. You know we praie daily that Gods will may be done in earth as it is in heauen and so doe you or you are to blame and herein we hope we are heard and yet simply we neuer found nor shall as long as the world standeth the will of God so done here as it is in heauen For continually there is disobedieÌ„ce to his will here in one thing or other one way or other euen amongst the best but in that in such measure as God seeth this fit to be obteined here he granteth it we are notwithstanding to thinke our prayers effectuall Christ himselfe praied Iohn 17.15 to deliuer his church from euill and yet though that prayer was heard in that God so farre forth preserueth his church from euill as he seeth it expedient for the state thereof here we see daily that many are the troubles and euils that the poore church is encombred withall And therefore to conclude you must vnderstaÌ„d that the faithfull praiers of Gods saints are to be accounted effectuall though the thing they pray for be not obteined in full perfection here as long as so much here is obteined as the Lorde seeth to bee necessary and conuenient for the estate of his seruantes So that notwithstanding the differences amongst vs you might and would if you had the grace ioyne rather with vs in our Religion then continue in that wherein you are the professours whereof are torne a sunder with moe and greater differences then the churches that receaue ours are howsoeuer you deceiue the simple with the vizarde of vnity in that you ioyne together vnder your Pope against the trueth The XXVIII Chapter NOw to turne againe to our former purpose if it were so that of our owne free deliberation wee were minded to forsake our Catholique Religion a If you should be of no Religion whiles all of one were full of one mindâ— you must die a nullifidian I warrant you the iniurious disputations that you vse among your selues were sufficieÌ„t to make vs to suspeÌ„d our iudgemeÌ„t without leauing to any of both parties vntill that we could see more resolute in your opinioÌ„s being the bardest matter the knowing in what cuÌ„try the residence should be kept for that matter b Where wheÌ„ nay our absolute sentence iâ— as our bookes doe testifie and we proue it out of the ancient fathers that your doctrine in this point is but new a very young â—â—ng in comparison of that you would here haue it seeme You haue giueÌ„ absolute senteÌ„ce saying that the Catholique church hath erred euen froÌ„ the Apostles time vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are deade constituted in a third place called Purgatorie You should mee thinke at the least allowe a third place although it bee not that to receaue the soules of those whose consciences you haue so troubled that they know now neither what is their faith nor of what ReligioÌ„ they should be c Such vâ—setled and vnstable persons for all your foolish
yet without fruit to the receiuer the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant the matter is not of so great moment weight as that either you should neede to make such a doe about or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for Which I hope God will in his good time reueale vnto them and so make them to giue ouer their contention and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter that you verie greatly belie vs when you write that we haue giuen absolute sentence that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead constituted in a third place called Purgatorie For both your deuyses of Purgatorie and of praying to God for the releife of soules there wee saie and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason dreames and fond visions and apparitions and neither taught by the Apostles nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ for three hundred yeares at least after Christ Tertullian was the first and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead And vntill the Florentine councell the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie to haue spared this your merrie conceit and pleasant deuise of wishing vs though wee refuse your Purgatory to prouide a thirde place for them whom our contentions make constant on neither side For either if you had beene wise you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it or els you would haue let it alone for altogither The XXIX Chapter IT doeth appeare well by that that I haue saied howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his ovvne particuler sense beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques as I haue alreadie saied There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion and to reforme ones conditions for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners a Good stuffe by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences there is no need to regard whether the doctrine be new or olde for as the Apostle saieth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to bee talked of as touching ones faith the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b And such be all they whosoeuer made them that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures of whâ—ch kinde your popish interpretations be singular interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious c If this rule be receiued and followed your popery will bee found new deuises and wil you nil you you shall become all one with 〈◊〉 He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church without making any accompt of al these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to any mason although his cunning bee but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can finde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seekes to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture not altogither to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I knowe his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me change my naughty life and to leaue my ill conditions d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue â—opery to be thus grounded But when he shall come to touch my faith and to perswade me froÌ„ that that all my ancetours did euer holde from that that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verie best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you saie that they maie all erre I praie remember the olde prouerbe that saieth he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise and all the other fooles that it is more agreeable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as they say commonly two eies see more then one and foure more then two The XXIX Chapter WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen to disproue either our vocatioÌ„ or Religion for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter by weighing togither your obiections and my answers now let the indifferent Reader iudge vnto whom I doubt not your bragge notwithstanding it shall and will well appeare that both may be builded vpon the rocke for any thing you haue yet saied The onely new thing that you set downe in this Chapter is this that the former variety amongst theÌ„ that alleadge scripture considered you allow well that one should listen to meane men alleadging scripture though not very aptlie to reforme maners withall But when they are alleadged to teach faith then it is meete that the Catholique man trust none but the best and those alleadging them according to the general Councels and all ancient doctours And therefore you write that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations that he must follow the sentence helde taught by the ancient Catholique Church not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith that all his ancetours did euer holde the Catholique Church hath euer helde the Scriptures generall Councels and all the ancieÌ„t doctours doe teach In which case if one should take vpoÌ„ him to be wiser then all these you would haue him according to the prouerbe accounted a foole that thinketh himselfe onely wise and all others fooles because in reason it is more likely that one should erre then al these c. Be it that al this were very true what haue you woonne hereby against vs For neither shall you euer be able to proue as we haue often tolde you that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures general councels or
is no reason in the world why you should count from that yeare for neither Daniels words will beare it neither yet the true account of the time from thence to Christs death for that was about the yeare of the world 3354 and he suffâ—ed Anno. 3996. as Functius calculateth Neither is there any mention in Dan of 72. weekes but of 70 of numbers whereinto he deuideth that Beside it seemeth that your Arithmetique or wits were very sleÌ„der to reckon 72. weekeâ— that is so maâ—y times 7. years to be iust fiue hundred when as if you account againe you shall finde that your number is not so iust by 4. as you would seene for 72. times 7. makes 504. A shaâ—efull learned man sure you haue shewed your selfe here but he did assigne the very time that is to say by the seuenty two weekes counting from the fourth yeare of the raigne of Zedechias vntil the time that our Sauiour was naâ—â—ed vpon the Crosse the which time was iust 5. huÌ„dred years TheÌ„ seeing that Christ came at the verie prescribed time he might well haue saied vnto the Iewes that the Scriptures did beare witnes of him But yet to say the trueth if he had done no other but this he had not fully approued his vocation to condemne their incredulity For they might haue saied vnto him we know wel that by the saying of the olde prophetes the Messias should come of the line of Iacob about this time forasmuch as the scepter of this kingdome is taken froÌ„ the line of Iuda to be deliuered vnto Herod But what though is this a good consequence a But now that tâ—is point is sufficiently confirmed already so also al the doctrine of the gospel by him and his Apostles therefore now to refuse to beleeue the ordinarie ministers of the Church vnles they proue the same againe by miracles which is your deaâ—ing with vs is an euident signe of vnbeliefe the Messiaâ— ought to coÌ„e about this time therefore it is I No no shew vs your coÌ„mission let vs see some signes how we shal know it for if we should receiue you as our king it may be that some other would come and craue the like saying that we were abused Our Sauiour Christ sore fearing this obiection toâ—ke another witnes with him besides the scripture I meane his miracles The workes that I doe saieth * John 5. Christ in the name of my father beare witnesse of me The like proofe is made wheÌ„ S. Ioh. * Mat. 11. Baptist sent his disciples to our Sauiour to haue him teach the true beliefe that they should haue in him this question was put to him art thou he that should come or ought we to attend for some other Go your waies saied Christ and tel Iohn what yee haue heard and seene The blinde receiue their sight the lame doe walke vpright the dumbe speake the deafe heare the lepers are cured the dead are raised againe and the poore are preached vnto the which is as much to say as tel Iohn that I am the true Messias that he ought to attend â—â— other I doe verifie my doctrine both by the Scripture and by Miracles For first Esay doeth write that when the Messias should come he should doe the Miracles aboue mentioned Then seeing that I haue done theÌ„ in your presence it foloweth that I am he that should come Thus you see Sirs that both the b And by the same scriptures and by the same Miracles we iustifie our vocatioÌ„ and religion what wil you haue more Scripture and Miracles were necessarie for the confirmation of the comming of Christ among the Iewes who were neuer harder of beleife then we are according to your opinion and therefore blame vs not if we sende you packing like Coggers of the Scriptures c But they doe 2. Thess 2. Apoc 14. vers 8.6 and 7. the which doe neither beare witnes of your comming nor yet doe any miracles the which two thinges and more are necessary to make vs beleeue your reformed Gospell The XXX Chapter THe drift of this Chapter is to proue that Christ did not onely warraÌ„t his vocatioÌ„ doctrine by the testimonies of the Scriptures but also by miracles which I grant you proue sufficiently Wherupon you would coÌ„clude that we accouÌ„ting you as hard of beleife as euer were the Iewes therefore we should proue our calling and religion vnto you by both whereas if it be true that you say we can doe neither and so are to bee sent packing like coggers onely of the Scriptures Whither the Scriptures giue testimony vnto our religion or no. I referre to the reader to iudge by that which I haue writen already by that we haue writen from time to time in our bookes made in the defence of our religion And concerning our vocation and calling I trust I haue sufficiently confirmed that by theÌ„ also in that I haue shewed our calling to be conformable to the calling of true Pastors in the Apostles time But if further you require a more speciall testimony from thence of our comming by our calling I sende you now to 2. Thess 2.8 and Reuel 14.6 c. where it is prophecied that God would towards the later end send his messeÌ„gers againe to consume Antichrist and by preaching the euerlasting Gospel to ouerthrow Babylon And as touching miracles you haue bene answered sufficiently already but that you complaine not that we refuse to answere you as long as you can obiect any thing to this now alleadged I say that you must vnderstand that it was necessary for Christ to confirme his calling by miracles because it is true as you alleage out of Esay that it was prophecied that the Messias should worke miracles when he came so also it was necessary once to establish and confirme the particular doctrine of his person the ceasing of the ceremonies of Moses law and other such new strange things as the comming of the Messias brought with it both to Iew and Gentile which reasons you cannot shew why we should work miracles now to confirme our vocation or religion by to you For neither was it prophecied that the ministers of Christ should bring Antichrist to consumption or the whore of Babylon to her fall by working of miracles but as you haue heard by the spirit of Gods mouth breathing in his euerlasting gospell the force whereof in our ministry you perceiue daily to be such that it is eueÌ„ a miracle and wonder vnto you to see in how short time it hath preuailed and preuaileth still against your kingdome doe you what you can to let it neither neede those things so notably once confirmed by Christ and his Apostles which are the onely things that wee teach to be for your sakes confirmed againe though you be neuer so harde hearted The word writeÌ„ and the miracles therin recorded already must serue the turne to conuert you to our religion therein taught and
thereby sufficiently ratified or else gibe at it howsoeuer here you shall one day to your smart I feare find your selues to be without all excuse One tricke of your learning yet I maie not forget which you haue in the beginning of this Chapter which is this that alleadging this saying of Christ Search the Scriptures for they are they that testifie of mee you note that he saied not they are iudges but they bearewitnes of me which you tell vs are two different things This was by the way to giue vs a blow that would haue no other Iudge but the word of God And to what end would you haue the Scriptures but to staÌ„d at the barre as witnesses Truely that your Pope and your Church might sit on the bench as iudges to giue seÌ„tence as it pleased them whatsoeuer the witnesses depose But what little reason there is therein nay what blasphemy that sauoureth of you euery maÌ„ may learne by the certaine infallible trueth alwaies witnessed vnto vs by the one of the manifold errors iudged and practised by the other It is worthy the marking to see how still it grieueth you that the Scriptures or certaine word of God should sit aboue your Popes you to check controle your doings and how faine you would bring them vnder to bee iudged ouerruled by you But to answere this your obiectioÌ„ you must be put in remembrance that there is not such a difference betwixt a iudge and a witnes but one selfesame man may be both a witnes a iudge that if there be such a force in this word witnes here to driue the Scriptures to the barre to stand but amongst witnesses there is as great force in the word Iudge in another place to bring them to the beÌ„ch againe to sit as iudge Remember your selfe therfore that the same Christ that saied here that the Scripture beare witnes of him sayed Ioh. 12.48 to such as you are He that refuseth me receiueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him the word that I haue spoken shal iudge him at the last day And neuer disdaine you that the scriptures that bare witnes to Christ sit as iudges ouer you and your doings if you doe the wil not serue your turne For Christ hath tolde you what you shal trust to if you wil not stand to their iudgement here you shall one day wil you nil you be iudged by them to your smart elsewhere Wherefore howsoeuer in the end of your former Chap. you couÌ„t him a foole to be reiected that counselleth you to leaue that which you take to be the catholicke faith confirmed by the ancient Doctors general councels if he bring scripture indeed on his side you wil proue most foole if you beleeue him not This your Gerson saw therfore he hath writen that there is more credit to be giuen to one man learned in the Scriptures and hauing theÌ„of his side then either to the Popes senteÌ„ce or to the decrees of a general councel And your Abbot PanormitaÌ„ ad CanoneÌ„ Titulo de Electionibus hath the like saying But indeed whiles we labour to draw you from your errors to ioine with vs in our religion we doe not perswade you from that but to that indeed which our ancestors whom we may safely follow the Patriarches Prophets Christ his Apostles hath taught vs and which the true Church of Christ hath by her sound and faithful pastors lawful Synods and councels euer since vnto this day taught vs. This wee are sure is true For we finde our selues able by the Scriptures the sound monuments of antiquity the Cronicles of al times ages to proue and iustifie it to be so against al gaine-sayers And therfore I would wish you for fear of the senteÌ„ce of this Iudge the scriptures though you labour neuer so much to bereaue theÌ„ of that office of a Iudge amongst you that neither lacke of miracles working by vs nor the glorious dombe shewes of catholique faith Catholique Church ancient fathers and councels c. hold you any longer froÌ„ ioining hands with vs. For to pretend all these neuer so much wil no more excuse you from falling vnder the sentence of this Iudge then the like did your predecessors the hie priests Scribes and Pharisees in Christs time who by reason of such falsely pretended arguments kept theÌ„selues backe from yeelding vnto the same religion then preached by Christ and his Apostles to their vtter destruction The Lord of his infinite mercies open your eies in time and giue you once grace in simplicity of heart to search for the trueth of religion in his writen word and to leaue deceiuing of your selues others with these sounding and swelling words of vanitie Amen Your childish and grosse ouersight ignorance by the way shewed about Daniels 70. weekes in this Chapter is most pitifull For whereas he speakes but of 70 you say he did speake of 72 those you count to containe lesse yeares by 4. then they doe and contrary to al trueth of story the expresse wordes of the Angel Chapter 9. set downe by the Prophet you appoint them their beginning before the Captiuity wheras they must of necessitie beginne after The XXXI Chapter YOu a But not alone foâ— especially we comfort our selues in the goodnesse of the cause do alleage the inuincible patience of your holy Martyrs in times past for at this present if it pleased God that you did martyrizate no more soules with your false preaching then there are bodies that suffer for your doctrine your sect were nothing so dangerous as it is You glorie in your Martyrs of times past which haue sealed with their owne bloud the doctrine of that holie Cittie Geneua But in this ye are much deceaued for S. Iohn Chrysostome in his first oration against the Iewes doeth say that the paine doeth not make the Martyr but the cause for otherwise the theeues murderers might claime the like title although they suffer for another cause for we honour and loue the martyrs saieth he not for the tormeÌ„ts that they doe suffer but for that it is for Christ that they suffer for Iustice b There is no such thing there turn the place who list yet I deâ—â— not but in some other place he may write so but no wher against such as we but rather against such as coÌ„moâ—ly your fellowes be here in England who dying for t eâ—sâ—n yet you wil canonize for holy Martyrs And S. Augustine in his first booke contra Epistolam Parmeniâ—ni Cap. septimo writing against some of your fellowes that presumed to be Martyrs he doeth say that euery one is not a Martyr that is punished by the Emperour or by the king for matters of Religion otherwise saieth he the Deuils might attribute vnto theÌ„selues the glorie of martyrdome because they suffered persecution at the Christian Emperours hands when throughout the worlde their Idoles were
to escape this 1000. more such contrarieties betwixt your doctrin and the reueiled wil of God in the scriptures but by subtle sophistrie fonde quiddities and distinctions deuised of your owne heades without all warrant and ground frō thēce which in matters and questions of diuinity is intollerable These and such like contrarieties betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Prelates and the trueth taught in the scriptures we hauing oft obserued and tolde them of and yet finding them most obstinatly to persist in the same hath caused vs rather in respect of their hereticall doctrine to call them wolues thē in respect of their negligence onely heretiques And for this same cause seeing all yours are thus infected you wish vs in vaine to ioyne some of the best of them with some of the best of ours to reforme things amisse in both For there is no hope of any good reformation at all where any such as yours haue any thing to doe therein And seeing it is and hath beene so cōmon a thing with vs as you cannot be ignorant if you haue reade anie of our bookes writen against you to denie that you continue in the doctrine which was preached vnto you at the first yea seeing you all know that we count your synagogue Antichristian for her manifold Apostasies from the ancient doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught first vnto the Romans I wonder with what face or forehead you could write as you do in the cōclusion of this Chapter that we our selues cannot denie if we will confesse the trueth but that you haue continued in the doctrine that was first preached vnto you And therefore not onely for your lewdnes of life and negligent sheepherds bad sheepe doeth your kingdome decay as you would insinuate but especially for this also that in the points we striue with you about you are quite gone from the ancient sound Catholique faith and religion first taught by Christ and his Apostles and receiued and continued many yeares in the ancient Roman church others The only way therefore for you is to preuēt an vtter vniuersall subuersion and confusion first to returne againe from your new Antichristian Religiō doctrine to the true ancient Catholique faith taught in the scriptures and thē to amend your maners according to the direction of the same The XXXVII Chapter ALL our ancient doctours a This is but an arrogant false brag as we are able to proue come to particulars when you will as well of the Greeke as of the Latine church since the Apostles time and the Christians of all the foure quarters of the world which were in those daies b Christians haue alwaies vowed and promised lawful thinges onely to God they haue had a care to make those vowes and promises discreetly of such things as they saw he had made possible vnto thē which things are neglected in the vowes that I feare you most mean haue made their promises and vowes vnto God euen as we doe now and at their baptisme they did vse euen those verie ceremonies that we doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings that we doe vse in our Catholique church which you call Papisticall and to proue this true we will bring the saied ancient doctours as witnesses if it please you to reade the c Neuer man had worse hap in quoting so few places as is euident in the answer to this Chapter places that we will quote Tertullian who liued verie neere the Apostles time doeth make mention in his booke that he intituled De resurrectione carnis of the annointing vsed at the Baptisme and of the renouncing the Deuill all his pompe In his booke de coronâ militis he doeth speake of the third dipping vnder the water in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost S. Cyprian the Martyr who was aboue 1300. yeares agone doeth write in the second volume of his Epistles Epist 12. how they did vse in his time to giue the holy Chrisme vnto the children that were baptised Origen in his twelfth Homilie and in diuerse other places of his workes doeth make mention of the renouncing of the Deuill at ones baptisme of the making of the signe of the crosse vpon childrens faces when they were christened S. Iohn Chrysostome in his 12. Homilie vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. And in his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians he doeth make mention of the saied renunciation made from the Deuill and all his workes Reade I praie if it be your pleasure S. Aug. in Psal 31. Aug. li 15. contra Iulia. Pelag. li. 1. ca. 2. Item de nuptiis cōcupiscentia lib. 1. cap. 20. in Ioannem tract 33. in Canonicam Ioannis tract 3. tractat 6. Et de eccle dogmat cap. 31. De Simbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. lib. 2. cap. 11. Et libro de his qui initiantur sacris Cap. 1. Basilius de Spiritu Sancto cap. 15. 27. Arnobius in Psalm 75. All these doctours which were aboue a thousand yeares agone if you reade in them the places that heere I haue quoted you shall finde that they did vse at the Baptisme of their children those verie ceremonies that wee doe now vse and that you doe so mislike And as for confession before the receiuing of the Sacrament our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the Ecclesiasticall ministers haue authoritie to binde and forgiue sinnes Saint Cyprian in his fifth Sermon de lapsis Origen vpon the thirtie and seuenth Psalm and in Leuit. Hom. 2. Saint Augustine libro 2. de visitatione infirmorum Cap. 4. Saint Cyril libro 12. in Iohannem Cap. 56. Saint Hierom in Ecclesiast Cap. 10. All these doctours according to the Scriptures in these places doe confirme auriculer confession And as for praying vnto the Saintes in Paradise to helpe vs vvith their praiers read Origen in his third Homilie vpō the Cāticles and in his 2. book vpō Iob his eight book in Eccl. Reade Chrysostom in his eight Homilie vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians the fourth Chapter and S. Augustine in his twentie booke against Faustus the one and twenty Chapter and Saint Hierom against Vigilantius All these make mention of the praying vnto the Saintes And for praying for the dead reade Tertullian in his booke De Monogonia and in his booke De corona militis and Saint Cyprian ad plebem Furnensem and in the first booke of his Epistles and Origen in Hieremiam Homil. 12. Item in Epist ad Rom. libro 8. cap. 11. Reade Chrysostome in his thirde Homilie vpon the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Philippians and S. Augustine lib. 2. de gen against the Manichees cap. 20. in the Encheridion ad Laurent cap. 110. Item libro de cura pro mortuis agenda All these doctours whose workes haue continued these 1200. yeares doe teach vs all these thinges that now we doe obserue the which
and ceremonies noted by him to haue bene in the churches of Christ insomuch that in the 21. Chapter not onely he writeth that altogither truely and in al obseruances of godly praiers two churches could not be found that did fully agree amongst themselues but also that this notwithstāding the vnity of faith christiā peace was preserued maintained amōgst them The like may be seene in Zozomens 7. booke 29. Chapter Your owne Tridentine Catechiser of your parish Priests could see as I noted before that touching dipping the party to be baptized in water pouring it vpon him or sprinkling him with it so that euery one follow therein that order that hee seeth in vse in the Church wherein hee is it is not materiall which way be vsed for which of them soeuer be vsed so saieth he this sacrament may rightly be ministred So much the stranger is it that both you here and he there your whole Tridentine councel should so peremtorily seeke to bind all churches and persons to the strict keeping and obseruing of all your foresaied rites and Ceremonies in the ad ministring of the same Further cōcerning this point I must tell you that for your pleasure I hauing turned to these places which you quote for this purpose as I finde by comparing of yours with them that they mētiō you haue many that they speake neuer a word of in these places as namely your consecrating of your water and Chrisme so lōg before your dealing with the party at the church dore your putting of salt into his mouth your dressing his nostrels and eares withspettle and your giuing him a waxe cādle burning into his hand so thereby and by view of some other places in them I plainely see that you haue now giuen ouer the vse of some which then were vsed vpon the like ground that the rest were which you would seeme to haue from them For first Tertullian in his booke de coronâ militis which is the second place you quote as there he mentions thrise dipping renouncing of the Deuill his pompe and Angels which you would seeme to allow and vse with him so he saieth that being taken from out of the water we tast before hand the temper of milke and honie and from the time of our baptisme for a weeke we absteine frō daily washing and all these doeth he ground a like saying Harum aliarum disciplinarum c. that is of these disciplines if thou requirest the law of the scripture thou shalt finde none tradition shall be pretended to be the authour custome the confirmer and faith the obseruer yet you haue left these two last long ago for any thing that I can learne And Augustine an other of your authours in this case in three of the places named by you mentiōs exufflation which you haue giuen ouer as he doeth some other that you retaine And the same authour vpon the 65. Psalme shewes that in their exorcisme they vsed fire because it is writē in the Psalm passing through fire and water thou shalt come to a refreshing and in his 4. booke ad cathecumenos de Symbolo lib. 4. cap. 1. he saieth that before baptisme was vsed beside the Catechisme exorcisme praier and canticles in sufflation sackcloth bowing of the neck humility of the feet And Hierom vpon the 55. of Esay and against the Luciferians shewes further that then was vsed the tasting of wine and hony Wherefore if the doctours and fathers mentioning of some of your ceremonies binde you to thinke the vse thereof lawfull and necessarie still why should not their authoritie bee of as great force for these which you see they ground aswell as they doe the other And if their mentioning and thus grounding of these notwithstanding you will be at liberty to leaue these why may not we aswell be at our libertie to leaue off some of the other that we finde most needles and most to haue beene abused by you to obscure and darken the simple institutiō of this sacramēt Wil you follow the fathers as farre as you list and leaue them when you list and may no body but you doe so Moreouer in looking vpon this occasion into the monuments of antiquity and the writings of the ancient fathers I must needes aduertise thee Christian reader that I finde great variety in the enumeration of ceremonies about this sacrament in them and likewise great oddes betwixt the opinion and conceite that some of the fathers shewe they had of them from that that others of as good credit as they had whereby it is euident not only that they were not vsed alike al in euery place but in some places and times more and in some lesse but also that some vsed them to one ende and some to another So that no certaine rule either for the ceremonies themselues or for the maner or ende of the vse of them can be deduced from thence Whereupon it must needes follow that for any thing writen by the ancient fathers hereof so that the essentiall parts and things belonging hereunto which haue expresse warrant from the institution thereof be obserued first and then next according to the practise and example of the Apostles and the times next after them necessary instruction and explanation to and of the right vse thereof with conuenient praiers and thankesgiuing meete to be vsed in such an action bee vsed and that also in due time and place by to before fit persons any Church of Christ in any kingdome by the prouinciall authority that it hath may freely reiect so many of the other rites ceremonies as it shall thinke good and likewise reteine so many of them as she findeth may fitly bee reteyned for order and comelinesse without placing any opiniō of necessity holinesse or of merit in them And therefore forasmuch as our Churches carefully haue taken this course in these three points and follow the same in trueth there is nothing that these fathers that you haue named consent vpon about the administring of this sacrament but we fully doe obserue the same And here in Englād especially what fault can you find Of the 5. things your fathers mentiō we reteine vse though not with any superstitious intentiō as you do 2 of thē the rest we haue cut of according both to S. August aduise your pope Stephanus iudgement before noted because the multitude before was too great for the time of the Gospel they were growen into grosse abuse amongst you No essential or necessary thing to bee done is omitted with vs and wee haue besides fully inough for the time of the new Testament wherin we liue in which time it is more likely in such ceremonies rites and fashions for vs to erre rather in retaining too many then in abolishing too many But because neither you shal say nor your reader thinke y these fathers whose names you bring vs to countenance al your ceremonies which you vse about baptisme
wel to proue that then of such notorious faults there was vsed and lookt for publicke and sorrowfull confession But what is this to the enumeration of all sinnes remembred in secret in the eare of a Priest Sure I am in that sermon before he came to these wordes contrary to your doctrine and practise in this very point he teacheth that veniam peccatis quae in ipsum cōmissa sunt solus potest ille largiri qui peccata nostra portauit c. that is he onely can giue vs pardon for our sinnes that bore our sinnes c. adding streight man cannot be greater then God neither can he being a seruant by his indulgence remit or forgiue that which is grieuously cōmitted against God least so to him that is fallē this fault come vnto his other that he forget that it was saied lōg ago Hier. 17. cursed is that man that hath his trust in man And therefore both immediatly and thorow that sermon he is earnest to moue them that were fallen to fly to God in prayer in weeping and mourning Now indeede both for their better direction to turne vnto the Lorde effectually and for the further declaration and testification of their repentance to be vnfeyned he would haue confession of such their falles to be made with all sorrowfulnes before the Lords Priests Let this doctrine therefore of his onely be receaued and your auricular confession will come short home For if none but such that haue so fallen as he there speakes of should confesse such their falles and that onely to that ende that he teacheth without all opinion when they haue done that any can absolue them but God your confessours and ghostly fathers as you tearme them might be set a begging for any liuing they could get by hearing of confessions The next you alleadge is Origen vpon the 37. Psalme and in his 2. Hom. vpon Leuiticus wherin indeede he coūselleth those that haue fallen into any greeuous sinne though secret yet to seeke out some discreet and skilful Phisition to open their disease and distresse of minde vnto that according to his counsell and aduise they may doe either in publickly confessing of them or otherwise in repenting of them and this is the most that can be made of any thing fated by Origen in these two places but this his coūsel may bee followed thorowly and yet you come very short of prouing the necessity by gods law of your auricular confession or speciall and precise enumeration of all the sinnes and circumstances thereof in the eare of a Priest The phisicke that they fought at the Priestes handes in these cases was direction how to repent and to recouer comfort vnder the burden of their sinnes by the meanes of such comfortable doctrine and coūsell that he should giue them out of the booke of God and the thing that you seeke for at their hands is absolution to be pronounced by them vnto you for your so confessing So that neither for matter to be confessed nor for the ende thereof haue you any warrant and countenance from them After Origē Augustines 2. booke de visitatione infirmorum is produced in which booke the authour threatneth dānatiō to such as hauing sinned shunned the iudgement of men yet tooke not occasion by the consideration of Gods iudgement which they could not shunne to repent and amend but if they iudged and amended themselues he doeth not so Allen will not stand to it that those bookes were Augustines writing of this matter And Erasmus censure therof was that it is sermo locutulei nec docti nec diserti that is it is the speech of some pratler neither learned nor elequent yea hee addeth what forehead or minde had they that thrust vpon vs such writings vnder the name of Augustine And the diuines of Louain say flatly it was none of his therfore with farre more credit to your cause might you haue let this testimony alone and neuer haue mentioned it But whosoeuer were the authour thereof no more can be grounded thereupon but that be thought it good to further the repentance of the party that hee should confesse his sinne that he had fallen into and offended Gods Church withal to the minister that by him he might be dealt withall by correption admonition or consolation as he saw good And the edge of his speech is not simply against such as did refuse to confesse their sinnes to Gods ministers but onely against such as refusing so to doe did not repent for he saieth si ea confiteri aut emendare noluerint and againe si in malo permanserint that is if they will not confesse them nor amend and if they continue in euill Besides if the words in the place quoted by you be well marked it wil therby sufficiently appeare in that there were then so many reasons that staied men as there by that authours wordes it seemeth there were from cōfessing to the priests that it was not then thought that so to confesse sinnes was so necessary as you would now pretend yours to be If it had beene either thought to be simply necessary by Gods law or it then had beene thought and knowen to be a set law of the Church to confesse sinnes in secret to the ministers why haue not you nor yet any of your side brought vs any anciēt doctor that euer vsed either of these reasons to perswade men vnto it Cyril in his 12. booke vpō Ioh. cap. 56. is the fourth man you cite for this purpose which place if you had euer read you should haue found him to set down this first as a most sure principle that only God is he that must loose a man from his sinnes for to whom else saieth he shall it be lawfull to deliuer transgressours of the law but vnto the authour of the Lawe himselfe Which position if it were receaued there would be smal hast made to your eare shrift But then indeede it followeth in him how then did Christ giue this diuine power to his Apostles Whereunto his answere is that he gaue it them because he gaue them the holy ghost because the holy ghost by thē forgaue sins which he sheweth the holy ghost did by vsing their ministry to baptise men and to bring them to repentance by rebuking of sinners and by shewing them fauour againe as Paul dealt with the man of Corinth So that you see his doctrine is there that men come to haue their sins forgiuen them by the holy ghosts vsing our ministry effectually to bring men to repentance where to make auricular confession to men of all their sinnes is not reckoned vp as anie meanes whereby in the Apostles or by the Apostles the holy ghost forgaue anie their sinnes but to preach the worde to minister the Sacraments and to vse the censures of the Church in due season are noted to bee the meanes Hee sendeth vs there you see to the example of Pauls dealing with the man of Corinth of
true word of god since the Apostles time there hath bene h I would meÌ„ would could read theÌ„ as you wish for theÌ„ I am sure they shuld find theÌ„ to be far more with vs theÌ„ with you neuer a Christian doctour in the Church for they haue all taught the contrary to your forged gospell as euery man may see that will take the paine but to looke in their workes or to read those places that are quoted by me and diuers others that haue confuted your heresies many a hundred years agone by their authorities Let them then that haue any eies beholde the hazard that yee runne into and so many others throughout the world which followe your opinion i EueÌ„ thus do you with vs If one should come to accuse an other of falsehoode and that before hee bee assured of this matter wherewith hee did seeke to atteinte the defendaunt would not one thinke his matter verie great or his knowledge verie small to run headlong into the danger of that crime which if he could not proue he should be condemned for himselfe What then shall become of you O most simple sheepe which seeke with fained arguments to condemne not one or two k These are but words feare theÌ„ not but seeing the man had nothing else he thought good belike to haue enough of them and those swelling enough but all the Christians and Catholiques that haue beene in this world since the passion of Christ the which haue refused and reproued your doctrine as hereticall haue taught vs this that we hold at this day But now to answere vnto that that was mentioned a little before that which a nuÌ„ber of your flocke haue told me when I haue conferred with theÌ„ which is that l We doe not hold that ignoraâ—ce wil excuse any that dye out of the true faith of Christ and therefore it is likely you tell but a tale the errour of our predecessours was not imputed vnto theÌ„ forasmuch as these good simple people went to worke after the grossest sort thinking to doe well and that as then they did not vnderstand well the trueth which is now brought to light through your gospell I say that in this yee are deceaued more then halfe the valewe of your Religion m You would seeme then belike that your simâ—le and ignoraÌ„t papistâ— haue all beene great and profound claâ— kes for before some of them died they had forgotten more theÌ„ euer you haue learned for all that that you knowe you haue learned it of their bookes or stollen it to saie the trueth interpreting both their workes the scriptures contrary to the trueth of their meaning And although it were so that they had al erred your coloured excuse of simplicity could auaile them nothing for the word of God would accuse them If n I am glad to heare you cite this testimony to pâ—oue that ignorance of the gospell shall not excuse any but why plead you then sometime that ignorance is the mother of deuotion the Gospel saith * 2. Corinth 4. S. Paul had bene hidden it hath beene hiddeÌ„ to those that haue perished the spirits of the which the God of this world hath blinded theÌ„ if that those vnto whom the trueth hath beene hidden haue perished wherefore doeth your excuse serue theÌ„ This being true as it is most like I meane that they haue not erred nor that you onely shal be saued they all condemned To my iudgement our auncestours with al their simplicitie did neuer erre so much as your disciples doe to follow such masters o This brag hath beene vsed so often without proofe that now it is stole and lothsome as condemne that faith that the Catholique church hath taught mainteined these 1500. yeares to mainteine those heresies that haue bene buried in hell many an hundred year agone now are called vp againe by Martin Luther Caluin his fellowes The XXXVIII Chapter THe vanity of the brag wherwith you begin againe this Chapter by that which I haue saied in answering of the former hath appeared I hope sufficieÌ„tly already but whensoeuer it shall please you or any for you to thinke that it will not bee tedious for the Reader to bring vs forth this number of Doctours confessours martyrs that you here boast of and to make it appeare indeede by their owne words or other good euidence that they were liuing dying so on your side as you here pretend I doubt not but one of vs or other will easily make it euident vnto the world that you are far greater in words and shew then you are in deedes and trueth You would haue your reader beleeue that onely to auoide tediousnes to him you haue forborne by their testimonies liuing and dying here to confirme all the rest of your doctrine and all that you doe vse at this day but alas your owne conscience telleth you that indeed not onely the tediousnes of it to your selfe but the impossibility of it altogither drew you to be glad to vse this prety shift piece of cuÌ„ning to salue your credit your causes with him CoÌ„sidering therfore what already hath beene answered to the fathers quoted by you in the former Chapter in whose euidence for those matters belike you durst be boldest what otherwise vpon sundry other occasions in answering of your booke I haue set downe out of theÌ„ directly to proue the contrary to this that you say you could proue out of theÌ„ your question with vpon the supposall of your brag here to be but a trueth you haue inferred put forth whither these doctours confessours martyrs that you talke of be in heauen or hel is childish friuolous needles For you know well enough that there is neuer a doctour confessour or Martyr of any credit and worthie so to be accounted for the Catholique Religion they taught and dyed in but though in some of them we doe not deny there might be found some inclinations towards some things now held by you that yet we holde that forasmuch as not onely they held with vs the foundation and other principall points of Christian Religion wherein you are contrary both vnto them vs but that also the Lord in his mercy towards them kept theÌ„ in the rest froÌ„ the grossenes impiety that you are therein fallen into since that they were and are ours and not yours And therefore we comfortably assure our selues that they holding the foundation and other principall points as they did though they as men builded thereupon some wood hay stubble yet the Lord souÌ„d the meanes by the fire of his spirit and affliction so to descrie the same vnto them to coÌ„sume al that vnsutable building in them ere they went hence that we neede not thorow any such scrupulositie of conscience as you imagine feare to giue our iudgement or opinion of them For wee feare not their being in hell for
wee onely are saued or they al condemned For I haue shewed how a nuÌ„ber yea infinite numbers of them might be saued this notwithstanding As for your iudgement that they neuer erred so much as our disciples it is not material For you are no competent iudge in this matter And the reason of your iudgement that we condemne the faith that the Catholique Church hath held this 1500. yeares and maintaine the olde rotten condemned heresies is a thing which by begging after this sort at our hands though therein you be neuer so impudent and shamelesse a begger as that way in this your book your greatest skill hath appeared you shall neuer get And therefore set your hearts at rest your words though they be neuer so lowde stout shall neuer make vs yeelde you this for an almes You must therefore proue your words true and so make vnto vs euident demonstration thereof which you shall neuer be able to doe before we may yeeld vnto you that you haue any right at all to this The XXXIX Chapter IF that by a good and a right title your disciples cal themselues the children of God this maketh me beleeue that the saying of our Sauiour is fulfilled in them the which is * Luc. 16. The childreÌ„ of this world are wiser in their generation then the children of light To proue this true wee see this dailie experience for a wise worldly man when he doeth put out his money to gaine he vvill not trust the promise so soone of one or two or three as hee vvill doe the bondes of a vvhole Towne or Cittie that should warrant or assure his gaine But you nor your disciples haue not done thus but rather the contrarie It had beene better for you to haue first put your faith and trust in God beleeuing that he hath giuen his holie spirit and declared the meaning as touching the Scriptures vnto the Catholique Church a We build not our faith religion or hope of saluatioÌ„ of these meÌ„s credits but vpoÌ„ the credit of the vndoubted worde of God set down in the scriptures which is for credit to be preferred before the credit of all men speaking beside or contrary vnto them and not to hazard the hope of your saluation putting it into the hands of Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius and three or foure other such pelting merchantes vvhich haue newlie set vp shoppes at Wittemberge Geneua Losane vvhich one of these daies we shal see bankeroutes as their predecessours haue beene before them the vvhich after that they had deceiued the poore simple Catholiques b Beware of dogs Phil. 3. ergo take heed of this Romish barker the best is hee is but one that barketh to bite hurt he hath small or no power and gained some of their soules for the deuill they haue at the last sold al their honestie and credit so that at this daie except that it be those that reade the ancient histories no bodie else doeth remember that euer they liued in the world You are come now last of all to make vp their merchandise but your credit can hardlie be good before God c Will you neuer haue done with this bare vaine brag Shew this but once to bee true and then we yeelde and then brag and spare not for you shall haue against you all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day all the Doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires Kingdomes and priuate state thoroughout al the worlde which haue receiued and honoured this doctrine that you call Papisticall And if you saie that you will not trust meÌ„ but the verie word of the Lord we agree to the like that we ought al to beleeue the Scripture but we varie about the interpretation for you interpret it after one sort and we after another you expound it after a new sort and the Catholicke Church doeth follovv d When it commeth to the trial it will be found that our interpretation rather then yours hath continuance froÌ„ all the sound ancient Doctours and the vndoubted Apostolicall â—raditions the olde exposition of the ancient Doctours traditions which you haue forsaken or to saie the trueth your Ministers haue led the sheepe astraie froÌ„ the old flocke at the departing froÌ„ the which they haue beene al scattered abroad some following Luther some Caluin some the Anabaptists so forth for the which the Popes kings others that haue had the gouernment of the Church shall answere at the last daie of iudgement for as much as while e Ergo you haue had sleepy Popes they slept you haue come sowedweeds among the good corne Then seeing you are the sheepe that rome astraie what excuse can they make before God that wilfully follow your steps We confesse that we are the poore sheepe of God that haue continued with our old flocke stedfast whole as touching our religion but very weake and sickely f Amend them for shame as touching our maners that is to say g But your wounds sores sicknes is grown so desperat that you will account none such but them that wil tel you you are sound and in health where you are most sicke full of sins vices attending some sage phisitions to heale vs good pastors to keepe vs casting out the chaffe froÌ„ the corne I meane cutting off those abuses that are offensiue not to such scrupulous consciences as you haue but vnto him that doeth threaten theÌ„ for the carelesse liues of their sheepe so to continue in that h Proue this once some of you or else for shame neuer say it almost in euery leafe for lack of matter as you doe ancient faith that by succession of pastours we haue receiued from the Apostles The XXXIX Chapter In this Chapter there is nothing but your old great words stout begging the maine questioÌ„ that your Church is the true ancient Catholicke Church that al the ChristiaÌ„s great small since Christ haue bene flat on your side that you are the only men that follow the sound sence of the scriptures deliuered vnto you by the ancient doctors and true pastors of the Church that we are but two or three in coÌ„parison of you sprung vp yesterday such as you prophesie wil shortly grow banckerout both of credit and honesty This bladder ful of nothing but winde is sufficiently I hope prickt and let out already by that which I haue saied in sundry places before Howsoeuer I hope the reader is not so simple as that seeing in you neuer so great store of these swelling wordes as long as he knoweth your aduersaries denie them as stoutly of the other side and he seeth you bring nothing but bare wordes without proofe he wil any whit be mooued therewith And yet as not able a discourse as this booke of yours is accounted the greatest stuffing that it hath is onelie
traditions because they wil not stand with the plaine scriptures themselues we reiect Otherwise we are ready alwaies to proue our sence thereof to agree with the ancient Church her doctours better then yours can And as for the variety amongst vs of interpretatioÌ„s which you charge vs withal sure we are it wil neuer proue so great as hath beene and is amongst you or as is betwixt your interpretation and that which was of them 900. yeares ago and therefore for any thing you haue yet saied you your selues are the rouing sheepe froÌ„ the ancient sheepfold you are they which whiles men slept haue sowed cares amongst the good corne and which are the sheepe sicke in religion as well as in maners and not we And therefore they that haue ioined with you whosoeuer they haue beene are like at the day of iudgement to smart for nothing more then for taking part with you And so to conclude this Chapter whatsoeuer hitherto you haue gained at the handes of the simple by these your vaine and swelling wordes you shall hereafter loose ten times as much amongst them that are wise thereby The XL. Chapter I Know wel that you will take this confession of mine to your aduantage saying that for feare of being infected with our superstitious diseases you haue seperated your selues froÌ„ the coÌ„mon flocke but if you doe consider my first words they haue barred you al maner of waies to reply iustly for I haue already saied that although wee be sickely weake sheepe as touching our doings or maners yet in regarde of our faith thaÌ„kes be to God we are safe sound keeping stil a Indeede you haue saied and saied it againe againe but yet you haue neuer proued â—t nor 〈◊〉 that integritie of religion that by succession of pastors we haue receiued froÌ„ the Apostles without adding or diminishing any thing to the ground of our Catholicke beliefe for as for ceremonies the Church hath vsed the euer as touching the time the place to the honour of God edification of our neighbours b Your antichristian religion is that that hath caused vs to separate ourselues from you as wee are biddeÌ„ Reue. 18. vers 4. therfore if you did seperate your selues froÌ„ our kinde of liuing to lead a holy solitarie life as the holie Heremites Saints haue done in times past forsaking the coÌ„uersation of the coÌ„mon people to liue in coÌ„teÌ„plation without seperating theÌ„ selues froÌ„ the coÌ„munioÌ„ of the Church in the which they haue beene baptised had receiued their faith your doings had beene as much worthie of praise in that respect as now they are daÌ„nable considering how you forsake the coÌ„moÌ„ tabernacle within the which both you we haue receiued the sacraments of regeneration our spiritual food altogither And to the ende that no body run astraie froÌ„ the right path that he should follow the good ChristiaÌ„ ought to fixe in his minde this resolution I meane to serue God to liue in the catholicke faith coÌ„monlie or priuatelie for wheÌ„ there is any questioÌ„ put as touching the life the coÌ„moÌ„n are c This is a right popish glosse that is a plaine peruerting of Christs meaning as * Mat. 7. Christ doth say doth lead one to perdition the narrow waie doeth guide vnto the part of saluation But if one speake of religion the contrarie is verified for the coÌ„mon way is the waies of health the priuate waie is the path of damnation d And this is an other The Prophet Dauid in the 24 Psalme had a regard to this when he praied God to teach him his waies by the religion his pathes by the maners and customes The XL. Chapter YOu were deceiued in thinking that we would pretend your euil maners or your difference in ceremonies for the defence of our seperation from you For we haue alwaies protested that it was especially your Antichristian doctrine that hath caused vs to accouÌ„t that Reuelations 18.4 Go out of her my people that ye be not pertakers in her sins and that yee receiue not of her plagues directly spoken to vs concerning your Romish Synagogue and religioÌ„ And therfore is it that we haue so seperated our selues from you as we haue because we find that you are apostataes long haue bene from the ancient Catholicke Church of Christ and from the truly coÌ„mended ancient Roman Church it selfe with whom we cannot growe in common vnlesse we had forsaken your fellowship And this kinde of seperation of our selues from you we know was more necessarie and is more coÌ„mendable then al the seperation of Heremites or any other of your caged birdes howsoeuer you could haue allowed that better then this of ours But you would seeme to haue bound vs to haue continued with you because that we receiued many of vs baptisme at your hands What I trust you are not so meane a diuine as to thinke it alwaies best for men to continue communion with them in all things that haue baptised them You know I am sure that the Arrian heretickes their heresie spreading it selfe so broad as it did and continuing diuers 100 yeares and other heretiques as well as they baptised many and yet I hope you wil not thinke that they might not after forsake their heresies to turne to the truth You know many did forsake them and came to the trueth yet it was counted an heresie to baptise them againe The better yet to shew that we should not haue departed from you you tel vs that you haue continued without adding and diminishing in that doctrine which was taught by the Apostles first and since from hand to hand in all integrity hath bene by the succession of faithful pastors conueighed downe vnto you and so we had both baptisme and all our other spirituall foode with you These are but wordes the euidence of the thing is to the contrary as I haue sufficiently made demonstration before Proue this indeed and we will repent vs of our departing from you most ioifully willingly wil wee ioyne with you againe I like very well your counsell that euery good Christian should fully resolue and determine to serue God and to liue and die in the Catholicke faith but then I adde that he had need well and throughlie to bee resolued what and which is that true Catholicke Faith For his direction in this behalfe how to discerne which is the right way to heauen and which not and consequentlie which is the true catholicke faith which is not you teach him that when there is any question put as touching life then the common way as Christ doeth say Mat. 7. doeth lead to perdition and the narrow to saluation but in religion it is contrary whereunto you saie Dauid alluded Psal 24. saying shew me thy waies O Lorde and teach me thy pathes by waies meaning religion and by pathes maners Where learned you this diuinity If you looke vpon Christs
as the Iewes had beene for not receiuing of our sauiour Christ e It was expresly prophecied that whē the Messias should come he should worke such works and therefore it was necessary that he should work them and herein he had priuilege and prerogatiue beyond all men the like is not prophecied that preachers of the gospel should do alwaies therfore this is required at our hands without all reason And yet therefore we haue not more priuiledge but lesse thē Christ if he had not done so manie miracles For we know no cause why you should be more priuiledged then Christ And seeing that you haue shewed nothing to verify it this waie and that the Scriptures make no mention of your vocation nor you shewe no miracles that your liues are at the least as ill as ours f Thus to threatē you we may boldly without shame because we are able to proue our doctrine by the scriptures to be the same that Christ taught and confirmed with his miracles what moues you to be so bolde and so vnshamefaced as to threaten vs with eternall damnation if we receiue not your hereticall doctrine the which is so full of discords and diuisions that one maie easilie gather by this from whence it came and whither it doeth leade one although yee haue nothing in your mouthes but the Gospell and the word of the Lorde And as g Whoso reads that tract of Augustine shall finde the Manichees to whom he speaketh farre like◠you then vs. S. Augustine saied vnto your semblables Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio h I would you would go on with Augustine and saie if that be found with you it is more worth then al the rest and that you would be contented to try that by the scriptures as he was and then you would sure so many of you as haue any grace quickly ioyne with vs. I saie no more at this time but that I beseech God to drawe you as neere to vs as you are farre from vs and to inspire your mindes to turne to the flocke of Christ the which both to your owne harme and ours you haue forsaken The XLII Chapter THere is no question of that but that euery one is to begin first to reforme himselfe and the Lord giue both vs and you grace effectually so to doe But if neither side should call vpon the other for reformation vntill the one side were growen wholy cleare of sinne you know well enough that then they must neuer doe it For what company and society of men euer was there but therein was some bad as well as good As Adam had an Abel so had he a Caine. There was an Ismael as well as an Isaac in Abrahams house And Isaac had an Esau as well as a Iacob Amongst the eight that were saued in the Arke there was a Cham. In the foure that left Sodom one that looked backe And amongst Christs 12. Apostles there was a Iudas Yea Christ hath taught vs by the parable of the good seede and tares Math. 13. that we are to expect no other in Gods owne field but that euen vnto the haruest there wil be a mixture alwaies of bad with good But you charge vs further that amongst vs there are many kinde of vsuries and interests and that though one way we care not for your images yet we loue them so well an other way that we haue robbed your churches of them Whereunto my answere is that we cānot deny but there are too many amongst vs who by such vnlawfull meanes seeke to enrich thēselues and that there are too too many profane and carnall men that haue our religiō in their mouthes who by their lewd conuersation dishonour the glorious gospell of Iesus Christ we are most hartely sory for it and dayly pray vnto God for amendmēt thereof But this we must tell you that we preach against al sinne impiety whatsoeuer and namely against vsury and al tumultuous and disorderly spoiling of churches of such thinges as you talke of And our Religion and the lawes in our common weale condemne and disalow such dealing therefore we are wronged that in these things we generally or our religiō at al should be charged Surely many of our vsurers extreame dealing men amongst vs are either men of no Religion or yours rather then ours neither doe I thinke where your Religion is in greatest credit that in those common weales vsury lieth dead and buried Sure I am your Popes haue beene for a long time the cunningest and vnreasonablest vsurers in the whole world in that they haue sold their palles their lead and other their hallowed ware which are indeede trifles and thinges of no valewe for such summes of money and gold as they haue You flatly slaunder vs in saying that there are some of vs that affirme we are wholy without spot or sinne For we both detest that opinion and count them that should holde so euen worthy to be detested for their so holding Yet you say if it were so that ought not to moue you to leaue your religion taught you by your forefathers What a sound ground of Religion forefathers without distinction is I haue shewed sufficiently already In which point I would alwaies haue the Christian to learne to distinguish betwixt the olde and ancient forefathers the Apostles and their successours in doctrine and life in the primitiue church and the later forefathers and neuer to thinke the latter worthy following any further then they haue followed the former and then the danger of this dart is auoided And that it is reason we should follow them no further we may learne in that Paul himselfe 1. Cor. 11. requireth no further to be followed then he followed Christ But you haue a further reason not to be moued from your Religion for our life were it neuer so Godly because Christ though he was without sin and confirmed his doctrine both by the anciēt scriptures and Iohn Baptists testimony yet he saied that if he had not done in their presence the workes and miracles that neuer mā did before him they had had no sinne Iohn 15.24 For hereof you gather that you may securely whatsoeuer we say vnto you or howsoeuer we liue refuse vs and our Religion and continue in your owne still as long as we proue not the lawfulnes of our vocation and the goodnes of our Religion by miracles For you know no cause you say why we should be more priuiledged then Christ This argument you vrged before cap. 30. and there I answered it Where I haue shewed you amōgst diuers other reasons that there was this especiall reasō that Christ should worke such miracles as he did to proue himselfe the Messias because expressely the Prophets had prophecied that he so should when he came which reason you cannot shew why now wee should work miracles For the Prophecies that were giuen forth by Paul 2. Thess 2.
not amisse vnto my former answer to Iohn de Albine to annex this short answer thereunto His first signe of such as hee speaketh of hee saieth is their departure from the cōmon knowen catholick Church of Christ wherin they were baptized first receaued christiā faith and religiō and this to be such a signe he proueth out of the second chapter of S. Iohns first Epistle where he speaking of such saieth they departed frō vs but they were not of vs for if they had they would stil haue cōtinued with vs. Wherupon he thinketh that forasmuch as hee saieth wee cannot deny but that wee are the men that haue thus departed from their common knowen catholicke Church faith and religion wherein we were first baptized and that wee cannot say that they haue so departed from vs they still remaining in the same church faith and Religion that they first receaued that of necessity we must be enforced to graunt that this signe agreeth to vs and not to them This good Christian that he hath saied were of fome force if he any or all his fellowes togither were euer able to proue that they their church faith and Religion were such as Saint Iohn spake of when he so taxed men for their departure therfrom but seeing onely most beggerly all the packe of them this being the maine question betwixt them and vs alwaies take this for graunted them euen for their bolde impudent and importunate begging of it which we will neuer graunt them nor they shall euer be able to winne at our hands all that he hath saied herein is childish and vaine For we are alwaies most ready and willing to ioyne this issue with them for and about al the controuersies amongst vs that if we be not able by due conference of the Catholique and Apostolique doctrine taught by the Apostles Apostolicke men in the primitiue church testified and extant in their owne vndoubted writings with ours that we are of the same common knowen Catholique Church faith and Religion that they were and that the Romish Church in the thinges wherein wee differ from them is cleane departed from them and from the church of Christ her faith and Religion that then was that then we will as he saieth most willingly submit our selues yeelde and recant And I hope in answering of Iohn de Albine vpon occasion in sundry places I haue so shewed the agreeablenesse of our faith and Religion with the Apostles and the manifolde disagreements of the Church of Rome that nowe is from them and the ancient church of Rome planted by them as that euery one euen thereby sufficiently may see that not wee but they are the men that Saint Iohn spake of that haue departed from the true Church of Christ faith and Religion and that therefore this signe doeth so farre better agree to Papists then to vs that if this offerer will be as good as his worde hee must presentlie submit himselfe yeelde and recant In the meane time the manifest contrariety betwixt their doctrine and Christs and his Apostles made manifest vnto vs by the view of the scriptures thēselues and the notorious difference betwixt their churches practise now and the ancient churches of Rome for sixe hundreth yeares after Christ at the least made likewise euident vnto vs by all sound monuments of antiquity haue assured vs that in respect of them and their Romish Synagogue in these later daies to embolden vs to doe as we haue God from heauen by an Angel saied vnto vs go out of her my people least you be pertakers of her sinnes and so receaue of her punishments Apoc. 18. vers 4. And therefore as it was lawfull for Abraham to follow the Lordes calling Gen 12. to depart out of his owne cuntrey Chaldea and to forsake the abhominatiō thereof as it was wisedome for Lot at the admonition of the Angels to go out of Sodom Gen. 19. and as it was necessary that Christ and his should separate thēselues from the high Priests Scribes and Pharisees and their errours and superstitions though they then their followers bragged that they were the people of God his church so was it meete requisite for vs to depart as we haue from their Popish church and the popery thereof And as for our receauing our baptisme amongst them that bindeth vs no more to hold cōmunion with thē still in their false erronious religion then the receauing of circumcision bound Christ his Apostles those of the Iewes that beleued by their doctrine to continue felowship with the blind and superstitious synagogue of the hard harted Iewes or the receiuing of baptisme in former times at the hands of the ancient heretiques the Arriās or any other such like bound thē that were baptised by such y◠they might not separate themselues frō such to returne home againe to the true catholique church of Christ Againe if they thinke that men are bound alwaies to liue and die in that Religion whereof they were that baptized them why doe they labour by their Iesuits seminaries to seduce to their Religion such as we haue baptized But yet to touch them more neerely for all this brag of their still continuing in the faith and Religion they first receaued let euen their owne Baptisme and their faith and Religion that they after professe bee compared togither and the contrary will appeare For they being al baptized in the name onely of the Father the Sonne the holy Ghost as it is well knowen they are thereby they are bounde onely to beleeue in this Trinity in Vnity and Vnitie in Trinity and yet afterwardes all the sort of them notwithstanding the Apostles Creede and all other ancient Creeds teach them the same become plaine apostataes from this faith in beleeuing in a number both of persons and thinges that without blasphemy they cannot count either God the Father God the Sonne or God the holy Ghost Proofe and most palpable demonstration hereof is their beliefe in their owne merits merits of others Popes pardons halowed water other halowed things their beliefe in and therefore praying vnto Saints Angels In the wonderful prouidēce of God doubtles this forme of baptisme these creeds were preserued continued amongst thē not only to make it euen thereby euident whatsoeuer any of thē brag to the contrary neuer so oft that they are the men that daily depart both frō the faith of Christ first taught them their forefathers and after particulerly in their baptisme cōfirmed to euery one of them but also to make thē before both God man without all excuse of their so grosse apostacy from the same notwithstāding Wheras they know all the world els that knoweth vs know that we simply continue in this faith first deliuered vntd vs briefly by the holy catholique church in these creeds daily sealed vnto vs in our baptisme that euen for that it is that we are so hated and persecuted of
them that with them we will not run out frō this church and faith to beleeue in a 1000. things that are not God as they doe And therefore these things considered by this note they are proued to be the Antichristian false prophets heretiques schismatiques that he speaketh of and not we His second sure marke signe and token of false prophets c. is saieth he that they being departed from the catholique church doe of thēselues of their owne authority without warrant being not sent set vp a new gospell a new faith and Religion and so by preaching a newe doctrine assemble and set vp a newe church and congregation And to proue this Heb. 5. Rom. 10. and Exod. 4. are quoted whence onely we may learne to this purpose that none may take vpon them an office in Gods house without lawfull calling and warrant from him Yet hereupon as though these were most pregnant places to proue that to be necessary to a lawefull calling which the learned protestant can neuer proue to bee in our calling he promiseth likewise to yeelde and to recant when wee shall bee able to proue our iust and due vocation ordinarily or extraordinarily to proceede of God and not onely of mē By his owne words in describing this note or marke two things must concurre to the making of it namely the preaching of a newe Religion or Gospell and the doing of it without a iust and due vocation from God and yet in the prouing it to be such a marke in the applying it to vs he forgetteth altogither the former maketh only shew of proofe for the later Belike his own cōscience tolde him that howsoeuer it was an easie matter to insinuate that our religion was new that yet he was not able so much as to make any shew that he could proue it so to be indeed And touching the other howsoeuer the places quoted by him serue to proue a lawful calling or sending by God to be necessary for and to all such as shal take any office vpon them in his Church yet they proue not at al that there is any thing needful to the prouing of our vocation to be such wanting in ours neither doeth he name any thing required in any of these places to be in ours which he could say we wanted which it is likely he would not haue omitted to haue done if he had seene that with any probability he might haue done it And therefore any man may see that euen in this signe as in the former his onely ground is a false supposition that those things must needs be graunted him all which both most iustly and confidently we alwaies deny For without any proofe or shadow of proofe he in one periode assumeth three things against vs most vntruely slanderously as at large in sundry places of my answere to Albine I haue made it manifest namely that we are gone out of the true catholicke Church that wee haue set vp a new faith and religion and that we haue assembled a new Church and congregation Yea christian reader if thou wouldest but vouchsafe by the table annexed vnto this answere of mine to turne to the places in the saied answere where these points be handled the antiquity of our church and religion the newnes of popery and the contrariety betwixt the Romish church that now is the scriptures fathers and councels in the true catholicke church of Christ the lawfulnes of our calling to the ministry and the vnlawfulnes of their priesthood and vocation thereunto vnto other prelacies amongst them and when thou hast found them to read ouer wtout partiality what I haue writen hereof I doubt not but thereby thou wouldest see not onely that he vniustly hath here charged vs with these three faults but the most iustly we may charge thē with thē al. And therfore therunto referring thee for further answere vnto this threefold charge of his in this place vpon that which there thou shalt finde I hope with mee thou wilt conclude that this beeing a marke and a most certaine signe of antichristian heretiques as he saieth that it standeth faire vpon thē and not vpon vs therfore he should recāt The third signe tokē that the offerer talketh of is that such ouer and aboue the properties touched in the two former doe preach and teach contentiously and seditiously against the doctrine before time taught of the common knowen Catholicke Church of Christ as namely saieth hee against the sacraments of Christs Church by a flat denial of many of thē against the real presence of Christs body in the holy eucharist against the blessed sacrifice of the masse propitiatory both for the liue and the dead against penance the worthy fruits thereof by fasting watching and praier al straightnes of life against vowes inuocation of Saints praier for soules departed and finally against the Church it selfe flatly denying that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible Church to be heard speak perceiued or seene The ground of which signe he maketh that saying Hebrues 13 be you not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines so tearmed of the Apostle as he expoundeth him because they agree not but are contrary to the receiued and common knowen doctrine of Christs holy catholicke Church whereupon he groweth to his conclusion that when the learned protestant shal be able to proue that they and not we are by our preaching of these strange doctrines the raisers vp of these strifes and contentions then he wil recant and not before Whereunto I answere that vnderstanding by the common knowen catholicke Church the true Church of Christ which is knowen and acknowledged so to be alwaies of him and his faithfull members then we graūt that this is a right marke of such as he would haue it to be a marke of and that worthely in the thirteenth of the Hebrues all men are warned to take heed that they be not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines from that which she hath vniuersally taught and receiued But so taking the common knowen catholicke Church of Christ and not otherwise I say it and haue proued it in my answere to Albine that the Church of Rome that now is hath too long and doeth still not onely cōtentiously and seditiously but also furiously tirannically bloudely and euery way antichristianly preach against the doctrine before time taught by her and commonly receaued and professed by hers touching the true vse of the law and the gospell the office of Christ faith in him the doctrine of faith and workes and of praier and the sacramentes and almost of all other principall pointes of the true Christian religion And thus I am sure hee must vnderstand the church of Christ if either he would haue this to be a certaine signe of heretiques or to be thought rightly to haue expounded the 13. to the Hebrewes And therefore vnderstanding by the common knowen catholique Church of Christ
that which he should this marke is euident vpon them and not vpon vs. But if by the common knowen catholicke church of Christ that hee talketh of here and alwaies else he vnderstand as it is apparent that hee doeth their Roman church that now is most beggerly still hee beggeth that almes that neuer an honest and wise man in the world would giue him For in all these points here named by him that Synagogue a long time hath taught and doeth still so contrary to the true and chast spouse of Christ that though nether seditiously nor contentiously yet vehemently and earnestly it is the part of all skilfull painfull and faithfull ministers of the Lord to cry out against her and her so doing And thus onely haue we and doe we labour to manifest vnto the world their corruptiō in doctrine in these points least thereby to their perdition they should be seduced by them Otherwise whatsoeuer he saieth neither he nor all his faction shall euer he able to proue against vs that we either deny any thing or hold otherwise of any point here reckoned vp by him then we haue most sound and good warrant for both out of the scriptures and out of the ancientest and soundest monuments of antiquity But where as he saith that we flatly deny that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible church to bee heard speake perceaued or seene hee shamefully and vntruely reporteth y◠of vs. Onely cōcerning the visibility or not visibility of Christs church this wee holde and teach that who be the right members thereof whereof properly she doeth consist it is not discerneable by humane sence but knowen onely vnto God and vnto those to whom God giueth spirituall sences to discerne it withall but if otherwise by the church of Christ here vpon earth be vnderstoode generally all those that by outwarde profession seeme vnto men to be thereof then we hold and confesse that Christ hath alwaies had here vpō earth since the beginning and wil haue to the ende a visible spouse and church to be both heard speake perceiued seene though not alwaies alike nor of al sorts kinde of men as I haue shewed at large in the first and fourth chapters of my answere to Albine The onely thing that we deny is that it alwaies hath beene and euer must be so visible and apparent both for multitude and gouernment that euery one should be able therby not only to discerne it but frō time to time downe frō Christ to the ende of the world to name the principall persons by whose orderly succession one to another wtout interruption it hath bene cōtinued in one place or other Now hereupon to infer that wee simply deny it to be heard seene or perceiued argueth that they that doe so are growen so grosse that they can neither heare see nor perceiue that there is any difference betwixt the maner of being of a thing the simple being therof Iohn that neuer taught that the Church of Christ here vpō earth should neither be heard seen or perceiued yet teacheth Re. 12. that she would be driuē by persecution of the dragō into the wildernes where for a time in cōparison that she was before she should be hiddē Christ that hath taught vs that hel gates shal neuer preuaile against his church Mat. 16. yet foresheweth that towards his secōd cōming true faith should hardly be found vpō earth Luke 18. And doe we not read 2 Thessalonians 2. and 1. Timothy 4. to that end that before that day there shall be a great departing from the faith which by that which we read Reuelations 17 and 18. we may vnderstand shal be so great and so farre preuaile that the whore of Babylon there figuring vnto vs Antichrist and his kingdome shall haue vniuersality and all outward pompe that may be so on her side that shee shall make kings and people yea all nations drunke with the wine of her fornications During the fulfilling of which prophesies if it bee hard for some either to heare or see the Church or to vnderstand where shee is so that they cannot name the persons successiuely that she consisteth of no maruell For distance of time and place and ignorance or vnfaithfulnesse in Croniclers ioyned with a speciall care that Antichrist would alwaies by all likelyhoode haue to keepe from men all meanes to make thē to haue knowledge of these things least therby in the end he should fall into his cōsumption in respect of sundry former times and vs that liue now might make this impossible And yet he that should say so doeth not simply say as he here chargeth vs. But Gods name be blessed for it the Church yet was neuer so driuen into the wildernesse by the dragon or oppressed by Antichrist but as I haue shewed in my fourth Chapter of my foresaied answere to Albine some haue so heard seene and perceiued where she was and who were her true mēbers at al times that there was neuer time or state of the Church so bad but that we are able to nāe some of her frēds and where they liued or died in the profession of her trueth against antichristian abhominations As for the other points here reckoned vp by him gētle reader though he would make thee beleeue that they are such as in euery point as they teach thē now haue alwaies before beene taught of the true Catholicke church of Christ it is nothing so as in great part I haue shewed in answering of Albine as others thorowly vniuersally haue shewed of them all in seueral bookes writen against them for their Antichristiā doctrine therein Howbeit least by his words in the meane time whiles thou gettest leasure to peruse what we haue writen cōcerning these points thou shouldest cōceiue worse of our doctrine thē in any shew we deserue vnderstand that we preach against none of Christs sacraments neither doe we deny any sacrament of his in that sence to be a sacrament that he appointed it neither doe we deny Christs reall true most certain presence in the eucharist to the soule of the right receiuer onely a grosse presence of his body to the mouth of euery receauer fancied by thē cōtrary both to scripture the nature of a sacramēt of Christ himselfe is the presence that there we deny Indeed we as zealously as we can preach against their masse denying it to be any propitiatory sacrifice either for quicke or dead much lesse for both because we haue learned out of the epistle to the Hebrewes that only Christ is cōsecrate of his father as the fit Priest of the new testament in his owne person once for all to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the redemption of mankind that we learne by the words of the institution of this sacrament that it was neuer instituted to repeate that but with faith and thankesgiuing to make a commemoration thereof and rather to offer and deliuer Christ to vs thē
euer those that are sanctified Heb. 10. that he is able to saue perfectly those that come vnto God by him He. 7. that as there is but one God so there is but one mediatour betwixt God and man the man Christ Iesus 1. Tim. 2. and that S. Paul most confidently tolde the Galathians that if with that opinion that the false Apostles had taught them they would be circumcised Christ should profit them nothing at all they were falne from grace Gal. 5. And yet notwithstanding the most cleare and plaine euidence of these scriptures and sundry other places to the like effect so giuen is the church of Rome that now is and hath beene a long time to spoile Christ of a great part of this special honor glory that is due vnto him that it can abide nothing in the world worse then that men should he driuen by the schoolemaster the law out of themselues quite in Christ fully and freely soly and wholy by faith to seeke for their iustification here and saluation hereafter And therefore in it that in the deepe policy of Sathan to blunt the edge of the law that it haue not this force to breake and make contrite the heart of man with the ougly sight of his owne infinite sinnes and punishments due vnto him for the same to driue him to hunger and thirst after that effectuall iustification and saluation offered vnto men by the gospell in Christ they teach that man hath free-will to good that concupiscence or the first motions to sinne rising in man not consented vnto are no sinne that many sinnes euen for their owne littlenes are veâ—iall that by good deedes man may satisfied God for his misdeedes that man may fulfill the law yea that man may haue workes of supererogation more then hee needes for his owne saluation and that men by their workes maie merit a great part of their owne saluation yea haue merits both before iustification flowing from their pure natural faculties and powers to prouoke GOD to thinke it congruum that is meete and conuenient that euen therefore hee should bestow his grace vpon them and after merits de condigno that eueÌ„ for their very worthines deserue an euerlasting reward of blisse at Gods hand both for themselues and others And when they would seeme to be come vnto Christ and to beleeue in him yet in no case wil they trust to him alone and that that hee hath done and still doeth for them but then his sufferinges and their owne his merits and their owne and their frendes his sacrifice and their owne in their masse his mediation and the mediation of Saints and angels and an hundreth things els euen childish and rediculous for the matter of saluation must be trusted vnto That it is thus all the world seeth and they themselues in printed bookes stand vpon it that it must be thus and that we are heretiques because we will not let them alone in thus apparelling themselues their frends and their toies with the spoiles of our Christ and so their very glory is their shame A Christ that is so base minded in the office of iustifying and sauing of mens soules thus to be iumbled and ioined with so many partners and helpers is a Christ of their owne deuising such an one doubtles as we can heare no news of either in old or new testameÌ„t And therefore out of all question they shall finde that whiles they run a madding after this fansied new Christ of their owne the old true Christ will profit them nothing at all and that they are quite fallen from grace No man whose eies God hath opened aright either to vnderstand the law or the gospel but seeing and knowing these things to be true of them he must needs thinke and bee resolued that popery is euen that mystery of iniquity that Saint Paul speaketh of 2. Thess 2. and that the papists be flat those flase teachers that Saint Peter speaketh of 2. Epistle chap. 3. Which priuily should bring in damnable heresies euen denying the Lorde that hath bought them and so bring vpon themselues swift damnation whom yet many should follow and by whom the way of trueth should bee euill spoken of c. It is needfull therefore I would thinke especialy considering how earnest Saint Peter is there to perswade men to shun such for vs to leaue them and forsake them as we haue the thing which in this behalfe we haue especially to mourne for is that we forsooke them no sooner Howbeit though the better to countenance their Church and religion and to proue vs in thus forsaking of them to haue brought in such a schism as he talketh of he would make thee christian reader beleeue that all the world were at vnity with them in their faith and false bragge as if thou readest the fourth chapter of my answere to Albine and the 11. 37. thou shalt most plainely see It seemeth the man was very impudent or very childishly ignoraÌ„t of histories that would thus write For who of any learning or reading is ignorant that not onely the Greeke church and other Easterne Churches some hundreth yeares before the time that he speaketh of brake of communion with them but that also euen here in these Westerne parts in France Bohemia here in England and elswher long before this time Petrus Valdus Iohn Wickliffe Iohn Hus Hierom of Prage had so many followers and pertakers against them and their abhominations that for all the tyranny and most sauage persecutions that they haue vsed to roote them out by from time to time that yet notwithstanding they haue continued doe will stil in one place or other maugre all their malice euen to recompence that whore of Babylon as shee hath deserued at their hands As for the variety of opinions amongst vs that he vpbraydeth vs withall it is an obiection that Iohn de Albine often harped vpon therefore which in answering of him I haue sufficiently I hope answered Only this therfore to yâ— I further say here that though they be more and greater then we like of yet they are nether so great nor many as these our aduersaries by amplifying of this obiectioÌ„ by multiplying of names would seeme to make theÌ„ nor yet in such points but that notwithstanding we all agree in the fundamentall most principal points of christiaÌ„ religion whereby we hope it will thorow Gods goodnes come to passe that we shall shortly also grow to vnity in the rest In the meane time sure I am that they whom by any reason he may say be of vs for our holding felowship and coÌ„munion togither in our confession of the christian faith are all amongst our selues at farre more vnity then such as he liketh of at far better vnity then they be or euer haue beene since they departed froÌ„ vs. As for the Anabaptists diuers others whom sometime they charge vs in this case also withall they know wel enough we
to be christians and of him onely and of his vndoubted spirit speaking vnto vs in the canonicall scriptures haue we learned our religion with which as far as we finde any man to agree we reuerence him as it becommeth vs in the Lord further we take not our selues bound to follow any man whatsoeuer he be That Puritans and Precisians haue brought the ancient Protestants of this land of all sortes to any such point by any such meanes as he speaketh of he speaketh both vntruely and slanderously For such as for their preposterous zeale and factious turbulent spirits amongst vs deserue so to be called and accounted neither are for number so many nor for credit so affected of the common people nor wincked at of the magestrats as he pretendeth But if ther were as many fond sectaries that haue arisen vp amongst vs these late yeares as this man and other of his fellowes sometime would haue men to beleeue as long yet as we for all that continue constant not onely in the very same religion that we were of when we first broke of from them but also in that which hath plentifull and most playne warrant both from the canonicall scriptures and al sound antiquity as we haue a thousand times shewed and yet still are willing and ready alwaies to doe why should they thus odiously be obiected against vs to disgrace either vs or our religion especially seeing wee are sory for it and shew our mislike thereof as wee doe May any man iustly disgrace the Apostles and the Apostolique churches for that euen in their times there arose so many sectaries and heretiques amongst the Churches planted by them as both by their owne writings and other Ecclesiasticall histories it is notoriously knowen there did Hath not Christ euen of purpose to preuent all offence taking hereat compared his kingdome Matth. 13. to a field wherein the good seeds-man hauing sowen good wheat the enuious man so soweth his tares that they come vp togither with the wheat and so will doe vnto the haruest To let vaine words and brags go let thē proue but once any of them or all of them togither either that their religion is the plaine way of saluation beaten by our forefathers for these 1500. yeares past or that ours is not that very trueth that Christ and his Apostles taught as a perpetual trueth for the true church constantly to hold to the worlds end and we will striue with them no lōger But as this is a matter too hard heauy for them so they are content to let it alone and with fallacies vaine words to trie if they can beguile the simple people and bring them to a misliking of that which to mislike indeede they are not able to giue them one sound reason And therefore to conclude that both beginning ending and alwaies this mā may be like himselfe he taketh it for graunted that their religion is the sound catholique faith that the martyr Sebastian meant by his loafe which broken and broken againe after it was once well made and baked by sectaries heretiques as he told Genserichus the tyrant would neuer become better and that ours is but a breaking of it to make it better againe which will neuer be Whereas we constantly hold affirme that we may iustly say to all papists euen as Sebastian saied to that tyrant For the loafe that we feed on and would haue all others to feed on with vs we are able to proue is that the graine whereof Christ himselfe by his faithfull seruants hath sowen in the sound field of the canonical scriptures which he himselfe hath ground kneaden baked for vs and for all his children And likewise we are able to proue that this fine white loafe of the Lords own preparing alwaies lying ready in the storehouse of his writen word the Romish church hath a long time doth stil as much loath as euer the children of Israel did Manna And therefore as they preferred in their conceits garlicke leekes onions the flesh-pots of Egypt before that heauēly food so hath she and doeth she a massiue loafe the corne whereof must not come onely out of the foresaied field of the Lord for then it would haue no fauour with them but in great part out of the rotten field of mens traditions inuentions before the pure white loafe of the lords own making Wherefore to conclude all his speech or exhortation groūded vpon this story out of Victor de persecutione Vandalorum any man may see we might farre more iustly vse against thēselues of the Romish Church to persuade them as they regard their owne saluation c. to content themselues with vs with this Sebastians loafe of the first and best making I haue thus thou seest good reader but briefly past ouer these things and the rather I haue so done first because I found no matter in them but grounded vpon shameles begging of that which is most in question and secondly because in my answere to Albine I had vpon occasion giuen me by him already answered al or most of his assumptions against vs in the applying of these signes vnto vs. But lastly by view of an answere made at large by master Crowley both to the 22. demaunds and these six signes also that came to my hands since my finishing of this answere of mine I see if it had beene vndone I might well haue spared al my labour herein If therefore thou desirest any further answer concerning any of these I refer thee to him And thus I take my leaue of thee beseeching the Lord now and euer to blesse both thee and me and heartily praying thee to remember me alwaies in thy godly prayers to God to whom be all glory praise and dominion now and euer Thine in the Lord Thomas Sparke A Table whereby readily to finde out the principal matters contained in the former answere to Albine or any of his fauourers wherein because vntill thou commest to the answere to Albine himselfe the pages are not figured in the top as in the rest for any thing before handled the page of the letter in the bottome of those leaues whereof there are 16 for euery letter is noted for thy direction A. Abbeyes why and how suppressed pa. 287. Albine conuicted of blasphemy p. 95. 96. 186. 375. 378. Albine sheweth himselfe to haue beene of a profane spirit 269. Albines publishers methode in his epistle to the reader discouered b. p. 11. 12. 13. Albines owne methode and the folly thereof laied open E. 4 5. 6 Albines cunning in running from the question 6 7 9. 10. 11. c. Albine notorious in abusing scriptures 2. 3. 36. 37. Albine worthy to be famous for abusing of fathers 47. 51. 85. 86. 119. c. 126. c. 131 134 156. ca p. 37. through out Antiquity protestants rather haue then papists and true antiquity protestants stand vnto 102. 158. c. Auricular confession dangerous E. p.
9. p. 322. Auricular confession coÌ„futed at large c 37. p. 322. c B. BAptisme and the ceremonies at large spoken of 308. c. Baptisme that is outward sometimes separate from regeneration 280. c. Baptisme bindeth not alwaies the baptised to be of his religion that baptised him p. 395. 410. Bad alwaies intermingled with good 404. Beza defended against Albines slanders 400 Bondage vnder poperie as great as Israels vnder Pharao 170. c. Bohemians doings coÌ„sidered and defended 291. c. C. CAluins argument against the popish priesthoode that it is not of God vnanswered by Albine p. 5. Ceremonies popish how and when many of them came in and how withstood C. p. 15. 16. Colliers faith what it is 222 Christ will bee a whole and sole Sauiour or else no Sauiour at all 419. Christs Church perpetuall but not alwaies visible in the popish sence 37. c. 122. 413. c. Church why called catholicke and so the popish church is not catholicke p. 360. Contentions and varieties of opinions amongst Christians no news they ought not to preiudice the trueth 68. 69. 250. Contentious popish many and great 70. 71. 97. 252. c. Corpus Christi day when and by whom it came in 161. Caiphas had not the spirit of prophesie as Albine would seem he had 94. 95 Crueltie of papists in seeking to preuaile to stand by force 155. c. 291. c. Cathechising in popery how bad it hath bene 179. c. Councels haue erred and that euen papists confesse 230. c. Communion vnder one kind is but a new deuise 159. Christ was to proue his calling by miracles and yet not we 188. c. 403. D. DEdicating of bookes to great persons hath good and ancient presidents A. p. 11. and 12. Departure from the Roman Church that now is lawfull 149. 394. 417. c. 409. c. E. EDucation bindeth not the party to bee alwaies of their religion that brought him vp 181. to be read but not so as to discourage the simple from the study of them 205. 208 c. Scriptures alleadged in their true sence the ground that protestants staÌ„d vpoÌ„ 205 c. Scriptures though neuer so much abused by heretiques yet by them they must be confuted 226. Scriptures must expound scriptures 47. 210. 224. Scriptures they which alleadge best they are to be followed 245 c. Scriptures must trie who hath the spirit of God 222 c. Scriptures are to bee studied and read of all men 209 c. Scriptures shamefully spoken of by papists the better to shun triall by them 82 c. 212 c. Scriptures fondely allâ—adged and applied by Papists 35 c. 218. Scriptures in some sence may well be vnderstoode according to the tradition of the Church 87. 393. Scriptures whither rightlier alleadged by protestants or papists examined 215. 216. c Scriptures are so alleaged by protestaÌ„ts that they therfore are to be beleeued and neither papist nor heretique 215 c. Scriptures are both iudge and witnes 262. Scriptures are the only souÌ„d touchstoÌ„e both of trueth church al. 33 c. 46 c. 244 406. Scriptures by Papists thought neuer to bee soundly interpreted but according to the present practise of the Roman Church 214. 219. Sinne is more strictely condemned by protestants then by papists 285. 404. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Personall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Locall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither not reall 21 c. 27 Succession Popish we reiect not so much for their bad liues as doctrine 92. 301. Succession neither locall nor personall anie certaine note of trueth 27 c. Succession in the trueth the onely succession indeede to be stood simply vpon 31 c. Supper of the Lord wonderfully peruerted of the Papists 31. 416. Supremacy of the Pope new how by whoÌ„ it came vp and by whom still resisted p. 11. c 161. c. T. Traditions beside the word writen countenanced by abusing of Irenaeus and others p. 1 2. 76 c. Traditions vnwriteÌ„ the ground of popery C. p. 5. p. 82. Traditions beside and contrary to the word writen reiected by the fathers C. 2. p. 46 78. c. 224. c. Traditions spoken for and allowed by the fathers alwaies warranted by the scriptures C. p. 2 3. Traditions vnwriten heretiques commonly flie vnto eueÌ„ as the papists doe p. 5 6 33. Transubstantiation wheÌ„ it came in and how confuted D. 7 8. p. 109. Tree that is good bringeth forth good fruit and in what sence that is to be taken 274 278. c. Trueth is to be preferred before custome all things else C. p. 7. 86. 100. 406. Trueth is not tied to bishops mouthes and chaires 28. 29. 94. 95. 151. c. Trueth is most ancient and that is it that came from the Apostles 102. Turkes and Iewes take occasion the more to be hardened for the popish doctrine of Images and transubstantiation 217. V. VIsible demonstrable succession is neither certaiâ—e note of Church not trueth 28 â—7 c. 51. Vnity and Christian peace may and ought to be kept in the Church though the rites be diuers 312. c. Vnity vnlesse it bee in verity men are not to continue in 417. c. Vnity in euery thing followeth not vpon right praying for the spirit 247. c. Vnity papists haue not though they bragge thereof neuer so much 70. 71. 97. 246. 252. Vnâ—uersalitie indeed the Romish Church hath not 388 c. Vocation ordinary hath not alwaies beene found in them that haue beene meanes of the conuersion of nations that haue profitably preached 30. 123. c. Vocation may be good and lawfull though the called haue faults 131. Vocation of what sort popish prelates haue 14 c. Vowes in popery foolish and superstitious 306. c. W. VVAnts and faultes of the Church to reforme men are not bound onely to vse praier 141. Way that is narrow both for life and religion is to bee preferred before the broad way 395. c. Workes that are good indeed rather founde with protestants theÌ„ with papists 280. c. 286. 404. FINIS Faults escaped in printing through the absence of the authour the hardnes and smalnes of the hand wherein the copy was offered to the presse and the vnacquaintance of the ouerseers with the same A. p. 1 l. 26 â— why for when 4. 16. before for vnto B. 1. 7 the for that l. 33. the for their 15. 16 for second 11. l. 20 when for whom l. 35 for the their C. 1. 12 pruning for prouing 7. 12 them for them l. 25 put in I say next therefore 12. 23 for first sixt 15. 11 put out of desposed the first s D. 2. 9 Paula for pacta and in Armonians e for o and in Moralia is for l. 6. 9. put in next them they doe 7. 1 that for the 9. 34