of Rome C. Tell mee I pray you what is that which holdes you from vs R. To bee plaine with you since the Church of Rome is your mother Church you can with no good conscience forsake her C. If that be all your scruple I hope to resolue you for this day by Gods grace I will shewe that we of this Church of Scotland had neuer our faith from the Church of Rome yea that in her best estate shee was no more but a sister Church vnto vs. The next day God willing I wil shew you that the Church of Rome is Apostatique now not like that Church of olde which the Apostle commended and is not onely a Whoore her selfe but the mother of Whooredomes R. You haue taken much in hand C. No more then by Gods grace I hope to qualifie if you wil with patience heare me and interrupt me not R. Speake as long as you please I shall heare you C. No Sir I will be loath to burden you with multitude of words but shall bee very well content when you heare any point wherein weight is that you warne me to cleare it R. Well I shall doe so God willing C. Then first I will saye Rome hath beene no mother Church neither to the Churches of Asia these were planted by Apostles and Apostolicke men Nor yet to the Churches of Aâ—ricke Christianity was first conueied to them by Marke the Euangelist and the Eunuch of Ethiopia whom Philip baptised And I can let you see but that I shall disgresse ouer farre that fiue huÌ„dreth yeres after Christ the Churches of Africke would not acknowledge the Bishop of Rome their superiour R. Our question is not now concerning them for I knowe the Church of Rome receiued her faith from the Churches of Asia and they of Asia receiued it not from the Church of Rome And as to them of Africke whatsoeuer is disputable there wee leaue it as not pertaining to our present puropse C. Oh good Sir you will grant then that the Church of Rome is farre posterior to the Churches of Aâ—ia and if it bee compared with them is but a daughter Church R. That I can not denie But the Churches of Europe and specially these of the west parts were first conuerted to Christ by the Church of Rome C. No Sir yee are deceiued in that also and this is the point wherein I am to contradict you R. I am sure you will not contradict mee without some warrant C. That were no reason I will let you see that the most famous Churches of Europe as their Records testifie had not their faith from the Church of Rome and then I will come to our owne R. I think long to heare that C. And I will delay you no longer In the Councel of Trent there was a great question betweene the French and Spanish Prelates about the first place The greatest Argument that any of them vsed was from the Antiquitie of their Christianitie which none of them alleadged they had from the Church of Rome albeit at that time both of them sought the Popes fauour R. From whence got they it then if they got it not from Rome C. The Spaniards alleadged they were made Christians by Saint Iames who after hee had Preached the Gospell in Spaine returned to Palestina and was president of that famous Councell holden at Ierusalem Act. 15 then being Martyred his bones were brought to Compostella and there buried The French replied that their narration was fabulous and that it is more likely if any Apostle came to Spaine hee came rather by land to France and so taught them by the way then otherwise by Sea And if any credit might be giuen to such traditions they could also with more probabilitie alledge that Lazarus and Nathaniel taught the Gospell among them this at that time they spake for themselues But out of more certaine Storie this might bee said also for them thâ—t Philip Preached the Gospell in France CRESCENS also Pauls Disciple for there it is said 2. Tim. 4. TITVS is gone to Dalmatia and Crescâ—ns to Galatia Euseb. lib. 3. cap. calles it Gallia Besides him Trophymus another of Pauls Disciples taught at Orleance Photinus againe a very worthy man and after him Irenaeus taught the Gospell at Lyons Germaine was first conuerted by Lucius of Cyrene Paules kinsman and companion Yea the Churches of Italy will not bee found to haue the Church of Rome for their Mother Church for why Barnabâ—s first Preached the Gospell at Millan as testifieth Sabellicus and Apollinaris taught at Rauenna But to come to the Church of Rome tell mee who did first conuert the Romanes to the Christian faith R. Who but Saint Peter C. I will not now contend with you about that matter though it bee very dispuâ—able Whether Peter was at Rome or not and your owne man Clemens and Dorotheus also affirme that Barnabas first taught the Gospell at Rome But if Peter came to Rome what time came he to it R. I cannot well remember C. I will helpe you Irenaeus sayes S. Peter came to Rome when Saint Matthew wrote his Euangell in the third yeare of Caiâ—s fortie one after Christ. As for Saint Paul hee wrote not his Epistle to Rome till the thirteenth yeare of â— Claudius and fiftie fiue years after Christ and himself came not to Rome till the fiftie eight yeare after Christ. R. What would you make of all that C. Either yee must grant the Church of Rome was not conuerted by Saint Peter or then there was no Church there before the fortie one yeare after our Lord at which time Saint Peter came to it R. Let it be so C. Then I pray you consider that the Church of this Land being little posterior in time to the Church of Rome there is no reason they should beare vs downe with the shadow of their Antiquitie nor insult ouer vs as if they were a mother Church to vs seeing it pleased God to conuert vs to the Christian faith almost as soone as themselues and that not by them but by others whom he sent among vs. R. But yee haue not made that cleare as yet C. What I haue not I shall by Gods grace In the second yeare of Claudiâ—s and fortie foure yeares after Christ Simon Zelotes an Apostle came to Britaine and Preached the Gospel This was but three yeares after Simon Peter came to Rome R. How will you proue that C. My proofes are Dorotheus in his Synopsis Simon Zelotes peragratâ Mauritaniâ Aphrorum regione Christâ—m praedicauit tandem in Britannia vbi crucifixus occïsus sepultus est Doroth. Againe Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 40. sayes that Simon Zelotes hauing Preached to many Countreyes at length Euangelij doctrinam ad occidentalem Oceanum insulasque Britannicaâ— perfert and both of them are cited by your late Cardinall writer of the Historie Baronius R. Is that all you haue for you C. No I haue more
hundreth and fiue Gallia Britannia Africa Persis oriens Iâ—dia omnes barbarae Nationes vnum Christum adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis R. But why then by some is Palladius called Scotorum Apostolus C. Men may giue names as they please but hee and Servanus Sedulius Nimanus and many more came but in the fiue hundreth yeare of our Lord and may well haue beene waterers of our Church but sure it is they were not the first planters of it R. It is likely indeed to be so C. But to returne Vnder Diocletian in the three hundreth yeare great persecution was made by that Tyrant in al Christian Churches and among the rest the Church of South Britaine was also persecuted by his Deputies for the which many fled to Crachlint King of Scots who did louingly receiue them and assigned to them the Isle of Mâ—n and erected there a Temple dedicated to Christ called otherwise Sodoâ—eÌ„sis ecclesia wherin they peaceably worshipped Christ Iesus and this our owne Chronicle witnesseth After this in the dayes of Fethelmacus which was about the â—ift yeare of the Emperour Constantius there came into this Countrie one Regulus Albatus out of Achaia a Prouince in Graecia but the Countrie was conuerted also long before hee came Therefore â—iergusâ— King of the Pictes gaue him his Palace hee had in Fyâ—â—e where hee built the Church of Saint Andrew desire you still to heare any more R. Truely I am very glad to heare that we haue beene so ancient Christians and yet there remaines a doubt in my heart that the Gospell came neuer hither but out of Rome C. Remember you not what I haue prooued seeing wee are but three yeares in Christianitie behinde Rome thinke you in so small time they did so encrease that they spread out their branches to the vttermost parts of the earth Yea rather if you will reade the Storie you shall finde that for three hundreth yeares wherein are many three yeares they were so vexed by the persecutors that they could not get their owne Church stablished as after it was when God relented the persecution But to come nâ—erer yet vnto you whether hee was an Apostle or an Apostolicke man that first planted our Church I will giue you two great reasons that wee haue our Faith from the Greeke or East Churches not froÌ„ the Latine or West Church R. Nowe that is the point and I pray you once cleare it for I thinke if you euince that the Church of Rome in her best estate hath beene vnto vs a sister Church but no mother church C. My first Argument is from Petrus Cluniacensis Abbas writing to Bernard who affirmes that for seuen or eight hundred yeares after Christ the Scottishmen did celebraâ—e the Passeouer all this time after the Grecian maner not aster the Romane R. I vnderstand not that C. Then I will tell you it Soone after the dayes of the Apostles there happened a controuersie betweene the Churches of the East and West about the celebration of the Passeouer They of the East did obserue it the fourteenth day of the Moone that same day wherein the Iewes kept their Passeouer They againe of the West thinking they would haue no communion with the Iewes did celebrate it the next Sabboth after the fourteenth day Polïcrates with the orientall Bishops alledged the authoritie of Iohn Philip Policarp yea the prescript of the Euangell for their warrant Victor and the Bishops of the West alledged for their warrant Saint Peter Saint Paul Such as were more moderate misliked to see a Schisme in the Church for so small a matter Irenaeus iudgeth Obseruationes illâ—s esse liberâ—s Socrates Ostendit nec Victorem nec Policraten iustam habuisse causam de festo Paschatis tam odiose digladiandi Nam nec Seruator inquit nec Apostoli 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Seeing neither our Sauiour nor his Apostles by any Law hath commanded the obseruation thereof R. Truely it was a lamentable thing to see so sore a renting of the Church for so small a cause C. It was indeede and yet that in this controuersie the Churches of Britaine obserued the manner of the Easterne Church it is an argument they reuerenced the East Church for their mother from whome the grace of the Gospell had come to them R. It is indeede likely If these Churches had beene planted by Romish Doctors they would haue also receiued the Romish ceremonies C. But there is yet an other Argument Galsrid the Cardinall in his Storie of Britaine which hee wrote in the seuen hundreth yeare witnesseth that the Britans would not receiue Augustinus Iunior the Legate of Gregorie the great nor yet acknowledge any primacie of the Bishop of Rome ouer them An euident argument they esteemed not the Romish Church to be their Mother Church To cleare this you shall know that in the sixt hundreth yeare Gregorius magnus sent into England Augustinus Iunior to perswade the Church there to receiue the Romish ceremonies which to that day they had not knowne as Altars Images Vestiments Crosses wherein albeit hee had not such speedie successe as hee would yet at length did he obtaine it and intended also to effect the like in the Church of Scotland but was strongly resisted by Daganus and Columbanus Qui nullam in ritibus mutationem admittere voluerunt Againe in the seuen hundreth yeare a great schisme was in the church of Britaine some refusing the Ceremonies of the Romish Church keeping still their ancient custome for the which they pretended the authoritie of Saint Iohn the Evangelist Others againe embracing the Romish ceremonies which part waxed the stronger in that King Osuvius inclined to them Alway the matter was debated with so hot contention that from words it came to wepons and twelue hundreth Church-men were slain that refused the Romish Ceremonies this is all the good the Britaine Church got from the Popes Legate yet the euill rested not heere for at length in the eight hundreth yeare by thâ— perswasion of one Ecbertus this part of the Isle was also induced to receiue the Romish Ceremonies and thereafter their corrupt doctrine And thus did the Bishop of Rome first obtaine superioritie ouer vs and disgrace by his foolish inventions the glorie and sinceritie of the Churâ—h of Britaine By all this discourse which truely I haue made vnto you it may be evident how vainely and without a cause the defenders of the Romish Church brag of their ancient Primacie ouer all Churches and specially how far they wrong this Isle when they will haue Rome caled a mother to the Churches here which vnlesse you will adde one syllable cannot be admitted for indeed she is a Stepmother and in a word that Infamous Whoore of Babel who as shee hath corrupted the Churches with her abhominable Superstitions no maruell if shee hath at length infected vs also That Rome is Bâ—bel I will shew GOD willing in our next conference where we shall yet more abuÌ„dantly
the streetes of your Cities with innocent blood Nor like an Herod to take the Wife of an other Your Maiestie might shake the lappe with Nehemiah against oppressours in signe and token of innocencie Your Highnesse might cast the first stone at adulterers in a good conscience could make purgation with Samuel if so it were that your Highnesse came to bee iudged of man Whose Oxe or Asse haue I taken or to whome haue I done wrong If thâ—re be any fault for the best want not their own blemishes it is vpon that extremity which is neerest to vertue Namely in too great mercie and clemencie which of old was noted for an infirmitie in good Theodosius Quod ex mansuetudine in nimiam lenitatem declinauerït yet euen of this will I say with Nazian Etiam haec est dei humanitas Clementia This also is a resemblance of the clemencie of God whose deputie on earth your Highnes are for hee is gracious slow to wrath long suffering and ready to forgiue Many a time he bends his bowe to shoote at the wicked the arrowes of his anger but is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 slowe and loath to let them go Yea oftimes hee shoots purposely misseth his marke sparing yet for a time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his warnings are many but where they worke not hee strikes at length and no more but once 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thus eueÌ„ the Lord whose mercie is marueilous meanes him to iudgement where mercie is abused It is no pietie but superstition to spare when time is to strike And it is a cruell clemencie which is declared vpon one with the destruction of manie The Pillars which vphold a Kingdome are Mercie and Iustice since by them Kinges are conserued Your Highnesse out of your rare wisedome will haue a care to conserue them both that neither Mercie make preiudice to Iustice nor Iustice againe take away the praise of Mercie But to returne as Sâ—desprima vita ima are most vnseemely so is the dignity doubled where the preferment is beautified with pietie and herein also hath the Lord magnified his mercie toward your Maiesty that as by an high calling he hath exalted your Highnesse a Head Ruler ouer this Mightie people so hath hee made your Highnesse no lesse eminent by communication of his grace then your Maiestie is by the Honor of the place liuing in the eyes of all men a patterne of Vertue yea an image of the heauenly King walking so among the euill that you are not infected with their vice and so with the good that the best are made better by your example God make vs wise to know what wee haue for because the Lord hath loued his people therefore hath hee set such a King ouer them to rule them with equitie and righteousnesse The Lord make vs thankefull for it and long may your Highnes liue raign a happy king of many blessings to your people Amen Your Maiesties most humble Subiect and dayly Orator WILLIAM COVVPER B. of Galloway The Contents of the seuen Dayes Conference The I. dayes Conference Concerning Antiquity in Genâ—rall The II. Day Concerning the Antiquity of the Church of Scotland and how the Church of Rome in her best estate was but a sister and not a mother Church vnto it The III. Day Concerning the Apostacie of the Church of Rome and how shâ—e is now become that mother of Wâ—â—redomes Reuel The IIII. Day Wherein is declared that Rome is the seate of Antichrist The V. Day Wherein the common questâ—on of the Aduersaries is answâ—red Where was your Church before Luther The VI. Day Wherein an other Question commonly obiected by the Aduersâ—râ—es is answered Seeing you cannot denie thaâ— your fathers were Papists what thinke you are they all damned or not And if they be not damned why may not we be of their Religion The VII Day Wherein the order obserued in the Church of Scotland is declared to be conform to the ancient order prescribed by the Apostles and pâ—â—ctised in the Primitiue Church SEVEN DAYES CONFERENCE BETWEENE A Catholicke CHRISTIAN and a Catholicke ROMANE C. SIR you are wâ—lcome home from Italie R. I thanke you heartielie good Countriman C. Tell mee I pray you how it goes with you are you sound both in bodie and in minde R. Why what meane you by that C. Because many trauelled in these partes where you haue beene hauing returned worse then they went a field R. Wherein worse C. With the botch of Aegypt in their bodie the iust plague of God for corporall whoredome and the leprosie of Babel in their soules wherewith God also punisheth theÌ„ who loue not Sions beautie and delight not in the light of the Gospell R. But I was neither in Aegypt nor in Babel C. How so was you not in Rome and other parts vnder the Popes Dominions R. Yea that I was C. Then was you both in Aegypt and Babel B. I vnderstand not your mysticall Theologie C. Neither can yee so long as you are in the mist and haue your mind couered with a vaile R. You speake your pleasure there for I see all is well as your selfe C. I would you did for so you might easily see that Rome is Spirituall Aegypt wherin the light of God is obscured and Babel wherein is a fearefull captiuitie of Gods people and such a horrible confusion of languages that when the Builder speaks the people vnderstands not what he sayes yea it is Sodom which for her vile abhominations will shortly bee burnt with fire and brought to vtteâ— desolation neuer to bee repaired againe R. Let mee alone I see you are stil in your old humour and it maruels me much that so many in this Land being conuerted to the bosome of the mother Church of Rome you should still continue in this new Hereticall opinion C. O now I see the bile of Babel vpon you you will call her a mother Church whom God cals a mother of Whoredomes and you charge vs with noueltie and heresie but wee will proue by Gods grace what you call heresie and noueltie is veritie and antiquitie R. Antiquitie say you fie speake neuer of it for your eldest Doctours are Luther and Caluin C. Nay by your leaue Sir wee haue neither our faith from Luther nor from Caluin but answere you as the Apostle Saint Paul answered his aduersaries when they charged him with the like crimes that you charge vs with and I pray you marke his Apologie I confesse that after the way which they call Heresie so worship I the Lord God of my Fathers R. What euer Saint Paul speakes I would not haue you speaking of Fathers seeing you haue forsaken the Religion of your Fathers C. You deceiue your selfe if you thinke wee wil not stand to the Religion of our Fathers R. Ah but your Fathers were Papists C. Nay but our Fathers were Protestants R. Now in good faith you moue me to laughter C. You may laugh as you
be most true which is most ancient C. I say that same yet And that you may conceiue it the better I pray you consider that truth and errour suppose they came not of the same parents yet in regard of time they are like two twinnes but the vantage of time that is truth hath it suppose very little R. I pray you let me heare that at more length for I see it will greatly helpe to cleare this point C. Will you goe vp to the Church in Paradise and you shall see the first voice that sounded there was Gods voice For in the first two Chapters of Genesis you will heare nothing but Deus dixit God said but incontinent in the third Chapter comes in Et Serpens dixit and the Serpent said R. I see that clearely C. And I am glad you doe so But I pray you consider wil any man be so mad as to thinke that Sathans lies shall bee receiued for a truth because they are now neere sixe thousand yeares old R. It were no reason indeed because albeit his lies â—ee olde yet as you haue said there is a Truth elder C. I pray you remember that that it may confirme you against the craft of Sathan when hee would couer errour with a shew of Antiquitie R. I hope to doe so C. Now will yee come down againe to the dayes of Christ Iesus may you not see that when our Lord sent out his Apostles Sathan also sent out his false Apostles and when Simon Peter comes out to Preach the Gospell Simon Magus is stirred vp to Preach heresies R. I see that also C. Then let vs agree in this since Truth is to bee sought from our fathers according as we are commanded Enquire for the good and olde way we will goe seeke it from our most ancient fathers R. Truely it caries with it I thinke a reason that we should not be mooued with the opinion of any father where they varie from the doctrine of the first fathers C. You speake now as you should and as before I shewed you was the mind of that ancient father Iustine Martyr when it was obiected to him such a father thought such a thing he answered Sed pater patrum Apostolus aliter sensit And herein to confirme you if controuersies of Religion were decided as our Sauiour decided the question of Polygamie the debate betweene vs and the Romish Church were soone ended R. How did Christ resolue that controâ—ersie of Polygamie C. By this rule It was not so from the beginning Leauing this to vs as a maxime in Religion and a most sure rule whereby to trie truth from falshood What hath not beâ—ne from the beginning let it bee reiected as a noueltie And herein the ancient fathers agree with vs. Be yee sollowers of me saith the Apostle as I am of Christ if I or an Angel c. Mihi antiquitas Iesiâ— Christus est cui non obedire manifestus est irremissibilis interitus Ignat Epist. ad Philad Non attendendum quid quis ante nos faciendum putauerit sed quid qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit Cypri lib. 2. Epist. 3. Neque enim hominis consueâ—udinem sed Deiveritatem sequi oportet Ibid. Non est de consuetudine praescribendum sed ratione vincendum Ad Quintinum Obstinatio est praesumptio humanam traditionem diuinae dispositioni anteponeâ—e nec animadvertere â—ndignaeri irasci deum quoties diuina praecepta soluit praeterit humana traditio Ad Pompeium Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas est erroris Ibid. Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus Ibid Frustrà quidam quiratione vincuntur consuetudinem nòbis opponunt qâ—asi conâ—uetudo sit mator verâ—â—â—â— â—d â—ubaâ—anum Nec 〈◊〉 nâ—c mâ—iorum erroâ— seqâ—â—â—â—â— eâ—â— sed auâ—horitas Scriptâ—râ—râ—â— â—â—i docem is imperâ—â—â—m 〈◊〉 â—â—â—iaei poâ—â— Baalim abieruns quos â—idicerunt a patribus Hieâ—on in lerem cap. 9. Omnes hâ—retici aetati Eccleâ—ie vniuer saâ—is comparati minores tempore congrue vocantur quia ipsi ab eâ non autem ipsa egressa est â—b illis Greg. in Iob. lib. 10. Sect. 37. Sicut in omnibus veritas imaginem antecedit postremò similitudo succedit ita prior veritas quam haeresis Tertul. praescrip aduersus haeret R. But what makes these against the Church of Rome C. Yea very much for all these nouelties which shee hath inuented and intruded into the Church she colours them with the shadow of ancient custome and so very craftily vnder the name of Antiquitie fights against Antiquitie R. It is not enough to affirme that vnlesse yee qualifie it C. I will make it cleare to you if first yee heare a notable testimonie oâ— Vincentius to this same purpose R. What sayes he C. It is a propertie of Christian modestie not to deliuer their owne things to the after-commers but to keepe things receiued from their fore-beers R. Very well that place makes â—gainst you who will not keepe the Religion of your fore-beers C. It makes not against vs but against the Church of Rome who hath departed from the Religion of them who are theirs and our foreâ—eerâ— also as the remnant of his words will declare vnto you R. Reade them out then C. Hee is expounding heere he Apostles words If I or an Angell from heauen should bring to you another doctrine then that which yee haue receiued let him be accursed R. What sayes hee of it C. These are his words If Peter if Andrew if Iohn yea if the whole Apostles would Preach to you an other way then is deliuered in the Gospell let them be accursed To Preach vnto Christian Catholickes besides â—hat which we haue receiued was neuer is neuer shall neuer be lawfull R. Let it bee so the Church of Rome hath deliuered no doctrine but that shee hath recâ—iued C. Yes but shee hath and now once for all I will giue you amongst many one cleare example of it In the thirteenth Session of the Councell of Constance as is Recorded by Carranza one of your owne and Registred in your Canon Law there is an Act made of this tenour Licet in Primitiuâ Ecclesiâ huiusmodi Sacramentum reciperetur a fidelibus sub vtraque specie tamen haec consuetudo ad euitandum aliqua pericula scandala est rationaâ—iliter introducta quòd a conficientibus sub vtraque specie a laicis tantummodo sub specie panis suscipiatur Albeit in the Primitiue Church this Sacrament was receiued of the faithful vnder both the kinds yet to eschewe some perils and offences this custome now with very good reason is brought in that the Priest should receiue it vnder both the kinds but the people should receiue the bread onely and not the cup. What thinke yee now of this place Hath not the Church of Rome here deliuered a Doctrine which shee hath not receiued Is there not heere a manifest changing
of Christs ordinance and by their owne confession a plaine departing from Antiquitie What thinke you of this one instance R. I will aduise vpon it C. Doe so but I pray you fight not against the cleare light and remember that all bee it the Doctours of your Church pretend alwayes Antiquitie Antiquitie the â—athers the fathers yet this one instance among a hundreth prooues them to bee fathers oâ— nouelties what say yee Tell me like yee to heare any more of Vincentius R. I am content but let mee know â—irst what writer hee is and whose Translation is that C. He was a French-man he writ this Treatise in the fiue hundreth yeare of Christ and heere it is Translated by Ninian Winzet a Masse-priest of the Church of Rome which yee cannot refuse R. Reade on what sayes he further C. There is a commaund giuen to Timothie Deposâ—um serua which in all good reason should binde his successors Thus hee expounds it Keepe that which is committed to thee not that which is inuented by thee which thou hast receiued not which thou hast imagined wherein thou art no Author inuenter sorger but a keeper not a Law-maker but a Law-keeper not a guide but a follower saue that which is giuen thee saue the talent of Catholick faith vnbroken vncorrupt what thou hast receiued render it againe if thou hast receiued Gold render Gold againe slippe not in one thing in stead of an other for Gold lay not downe lead nor brasse R. I heare all that and I thinke hee writes like a sound Diuine C. Then take heedâ— the Apostle protests he dâ—liuered that to the Corinthians which hee had receiued from the LORD IESVS R. I know that C. Hee commanded Timothie and all others his successors in the worke of the Ministerie to doe the like R. And good reason so they should C. Then there is the point How is it that the Church of Rome takes on her this libertie to doe otherwise R. Wherein doe they otherwise C. Haue you forgot so soone Saint Paul deliuered to the people as wel the Cup as the Bread because hee receiued it from Christ Iesus how is it then that the Church of Rome takes away the Cup from the people R. Why May not the Church make Lawes C. No such Lawes as derogate to Christs Lawes for in that sense you heard Vincentius denie that they are Law-makers but Law-keepers I pray you giue place to the truth and consider how little cause they haue to bragge of Antiquitie who dare make the like of that Albeit Christ and his Apostles and the Primitiue Church did this yet we for good causes will doe othâ—rwayes R. Alway that is but one â—oint C. But seeing you cannot denie but they haue broken and corrupted the auncient Catholicke faith in one point you haue the lesse cause to beleeue or defend them in the rest vnlesse you wil incurre Gods curse threatned on them that pares or addes to his word R. The Lord saue me from his curse C. Amen but pray first that the Lord would saue you from the sin that deserues his curse R. God grant it C. And so I wish from my heart it may be But I pray you consider as in one Sacrament you are guiltie of sacrilegious paring so in both you are guiltie of sacrilegious adding and changing and so cannot â—schew the curse if you abide in Communion with the Church of Rome that now is R. How So C. As yee haue taken Wine from the Bread so yee haue added Water to the Wine which is a new inuention and forgerie albeit your Doctours to excuse it cast it on Alexander the first yet it is certain it was not in Christs institution and by your owne confessions was brought in many yeares after Christ and so should bee reiected as a noueltie R. That is but a smal thing and there may be many reasons to excuse it C. No not one Let no man bee wiser then God Who dare adde to the ordinance of Christ But you haue done worse in Baptisme adding Spittle Oyle and Salt to the element of Water was this done by Christ or his Apostles You father the Oyle vpon Siluester but confesse it was not vsed in the Church in Baptisme before him and so it is an other ancient noueltie R. It may bee they haue thought good to vse these for reasons and respects which I know not but this pertaines not to the substance of Baptisme and can not annull it C. I graunt they doe not annull Baptisme yet are they inexcusable who in the smallest thing dare alter the institution of Christ Are not his Sacraments the Seales of his couenant R. I confesse they are C. Why then since it is treason to pare or adde any thing to the forme of the Princes Signet is it not Sacrilegious boldnessâ— to pare or adde to Christs Sacrament But least you should thinke the controuersiâ— onely to bee about these things you shall know that except the Article of the Trinitie the Church of Rome hath left no Article of our Faith vncorrupted so that it is most certaine This Church of Rome with the doctrine and iurisdiction nowe maintained by her was not in the Primitiue Church R. O but I wil tell you what I once heard concerning that matter from one of their Doctors That there is a great difference betweene a Church in her infancie and her older and riper age For as it growes in age so may it and should it increase in many things which it had not in the infancie thereof C. Nowe I see you speake from such knowledge as the great labours of the Iesuites workes in the hearts of their captiues and because it is your last and greatest defence I will let you still see out of the words of Vincentius which you will like better then mine that this makes nothing for you R. Come on let vs see what sayes Vincentius C. He grants There should be an encrâ—ase in Faith but not a change of Faith R. That is a strange distinction and yet so honest that in truth I dare not gaine-say it C. Heare him then hee expounds the two parts of his distinction To encrease saith he is when a thing biding in it selfe is more amplified To change is when a thing going out of it selfe is translated turned into an other To make this cleare hee illustrates it by a proper similitude Let sayes hee the Religion of soules follow the nature of bodies which albeâ—t in processe of yeres they grow yet they remaine the same the same members the same Ioyntes are in Children which are in Men though in the one stronger and greater in the other smaller and weaker but if the shape bee turned in any forme not of the owne kind or any thing bee eked to the number of the members or taken from the same then either the body perisheth or becomes monstrous or at the least becomes weake So in Religion if wee shall begin to mixe noueltie with
thinke it goes very hard with them when their best Doctors can say no more in defence of Rome but it was Babel or it will be Babel that is either Antichrist sate there or will sett there C. I hope you shall thinke much more before you goe for now I will improue their distinction and let you see it is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours nor the Towne of Rome in the last time of the World that here is called Babel but the whorish Church of Rome gouerned by Apostated Popes R. Make that cleare and the cause is wonne Babel in the Reuelation is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours but Rome once Christian now corrupted vnder Popes C. It is euident S. Iohn prophecies of the state of Rome as it will bee in the dayes of Antichrist so sayes the Iesuite Viega Haec est quarta visio huius operis eaque illustrissima ad Antichristi tempora pertinens So also sayes the Iesuite Ribera a ca. 12. ad 21. Est huius libri pars secunda iota ad Antichristum eiusque tempora pertinet But the dayes of persecuting Emperours were not the dayes of Antichrist if they so say they destroy all their owne doctrine concerning Antichrist and therefore this prophecie of Babel is not to bee vnderstood of the Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours Secondly Ethnicke Rome as yet had not embraced the Gospell and was not married with Christ and therefore cannot be this Whore which Carthusian their owne man expounds to be An adulterous Whore You shall finde no people in holy Scripture charged with spirituall Whoredom but such as haue beene married with Christ none can bee Apostates from the faith who neuer stoode in the faith there must bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This whoorish Babel then can not be Ethnicke Rome vnmarried with Christ. Seeing themselues doe grant it is Rome it must bee Rome once Christian but now corrupted once Apostolicke standing in the faith now Apostatiâ—ke fallen from the faith Thirdly this Whore of Babel hath a cup in her hand full of abominations and the filthines of her fornicationâ— wherewith shee makes drunken the inhabitants of the earth By this golden cup Berengandus their owne man vnderstands Documenta erroribus plena And so this Babel can not signifie Rome vnder Emperors who subdued the world by force of Sword and plaine violence but must signifie Rome vnder Popes which hath deceiued the world by false doctrine and lying myracles Fourthly this Babel is called the mother of Whoredomes and abominations in the earth which not onely her selfe hath played the Whoore corrupting the true worship of God but hath inforced her corruptions and superstitions vpon othâ—rs Now it is knowne that olde Rome sought no more but subiection of bodies leauing the consciences of people free to any kind of worshippe they pleased They subdued the Iewes and forced them to pay tribute but left them to their owne Religion yea so farre were they from inforcing their superstitious worship vpon any nation that by the contrarie themselues were infected with the superstitions of all nations as is euident by their Pantheon which they erected in the honour of all Gods And so it is not Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours which heere is called the Mother of whoredomes Fiftly the name of this Babel is mysterium in quo aliud cernitur aliud intelligitur Quia enim tot simulatis virtutibus decoratur non omnibus mulieris huius prauatas innotescet sed viris iusâ—is prudentibus So then by this Babel some mysticall enemie is vnderstood being indeede an enemie but in shew pretending friendship and therfore called afterward Gog and not Magog that is not an open and plain enemy as is the Turke But Gog a couered enemie for this cause figured also before by a beast with two hornes looking like a Lambe but speaking like the Dragon To this purpose sayes IEROME Simulabit se ducem faederis And Hilarius that Antichrist shall bee contrarie to Christ vnder a â—orme of fained and hypocriticall godlinesse And Chrysostome Antichrist must bee knowne by his doctrine not by his titles miracles nor words of godlinesse And therefore it is a silly defence of the Iesuites The Pope say they prayers humbly to God and calles himselfe seruus seruorum Dei therefore is not an aduersarie for the Question is not what he calles himsâ—lfe but what hee is But to hold vpon this point it is euident by what which I haue said that by Babel here is not meant Rome Ethnicke nor yet Rome which at the last shall rebell for both these are open enemies but Rome vnder Popes a mysticall enemie Sixthly in this Reuelation there are two women described the one Chap. 12. clothed with the Sunne which is CHRIST hauing on her head twelue Starres for a Garland the glorie of the true Church is the doctrine of the twelue Apostles and vnder her feete the Moone figuring this mutable world This woman as themselues confesse represents the true Church The other woman described Chap. 17. is arayed in Purple Scarlet Gold and precious stones voide of inward beautie and chastitie shee sets forth her selfe with all externall brauerie that shee may drawe many louers to her Now I say seeing the first woman signifies the true Church as themselues confesse and afterward is called the Lâ—mbes wife why doe they not â—ee that this whorish woman must signifie the false Church And since they grant that Babel is Rome what else can the whoore of Babel be but the whoorish Church of Rome And therefore their owne Doctours expounding that prophecie of Saint Iohn Babel is fallen and become an habitation of diâ—els Ribera expounds it of an externall desolation accâ—rding to that of â—say prophâ—cied of the first Babel The â—im and Zâ—m shall leape there But Viega Nobis etiam illud dicendum viâ—etur cum Arethâ Primasio Ambrosio Ansberto Haimone idololatriam eius vrbis significari desecturamque esse Romam a fide atque adcò futuram esse habitationem daemoniorum ob execranda slagitia iâ—olotriae superstitioneÌ„ expounds it also of Rome her falling from the faith which hee sayes is a thing which will be but we say according to truth is a thing that is done already the foretold defection is come Antichrist that man of sinne is discouered God by the breath of his mouth is dayly consuming him THE FOVRTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein is declared that ROME is the seate of Antichrist C. GOod morrow Sir how doe you to day R. The best I can C. It is most like you haue not rested well this night R. To say the truth Thinking on our conference made my rest the lesse C. It agrees but ill with you to heare the Church of Rome conuicted of Apostasie R. I thinke so indeede and still will so thinke till ye resolue this question what is the cause there being so many VVise and Learned men in the Popes Church that they cannot see
yeare Thetgandus Episcopus Treuirensis Pontificem Romanum Antichristum lupum vocat Romam Babylonem Cùm sis seruus seruorum dominus dominantium esse contendis libidine dominandi in praeceps â—bis quicquid tibilibet licet fucusque factus es Christianis There hee calles the Bishop of Rome Antichrist a Wolfe a vsurper of domination a deceiuer of Christâ—ndome and Rome he calles Babylon And the like at that same time was testified by Guntherus Episcopus Coloniensis ad Nicolaum Pontificem Romanum Tu pontificis personam praete fers at tyrannum agitas sub cultu pastoris lupuâ— sentimus titulus parentem mentitur tu te factis Iouem esse ostentas quum sis seruus seruorum dominus dominantium esse contendis Bernard saith Bestia illa in Apocalypsi cui datum est osloquens blasphemias bellum gerens cum sanctis Petri cathedram occupat tanquam leo paratus ad praedam The beast spoken of in the Reuelation hauing a mouth speaking blasphemies and which Warres against the Saints is now gotten into Peters Chaire as a Lion prepared for his prey What thinke yee of these words R. What should I thinke for my owne part I maruaile that the Pope did not burne Bernard for an hereticke C. So you may But heare yet moâ—e Ioâ—chimus Abbas who liued three hundred yeres since saith Antichristus iamdudum natus est Romae altiùs extolletur in sede Apostolicá Antichrist long since is borne in Rome and shall bee aduanced yet higher in the Apostolicke seate Franciscus Petrarcha Archdecon of Parma who liued in the thousand three hundreth and fiftie yeare Epist. 5.14 17 18 19 c. Compares the Pope to Iudas who betrayed Christ with a kisse his Clergie to the Iâ—wes who said to him Aue Rex Iudaeorum His Prelates to the Phariâ—ies â—ho in mockerie clothed him with Puâ—ple and after crucified him And againe Denie it now if thou canst That thou art shee whom S. Iohn saw in the spirit sitting vpon many waters Thou art shee and none other that Babylon the mother of the whoredomes of the earth drunken with the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus thou art shee which hast made all Kings of the earth drunken with the Cups of thy poyson In the thousand and three hundreth yeare lib. 2. cap. 5 In Synodo Reginoburgensi habita est haec oratio â— quodam Episcopo contra pontificem Romanum Sub Pontificis maximi titulo pastoris pelle lupum saeâ—isâ—mum nisi caeci simus sentimus Romani slamines arma in omnes habent Christianos audendo fallendo bella ex bellis serendo magni facti oues trucidant occidunt pacem concordâ—am terris depellunt intestina bella domesticas seditiones ab inferis eliciunt indiès magis ac magis omnium vires debilitant vt omnium capitibus insultent omnes deuorent vniuersos in seruitutem redigant c. Ingentia loquitur quasi verò Deus esset noua consilia sub pectore volutat vt nouum sibi constituat imperium leges commutat suas sancit contaminâ—t diripit spoliat fraudat occidit perditus ille homo quem Antichristum vocare solent in cuius fronte coâ—tumeliae nomen scriptum est Deus sum errare non possum in templo Dei sedet longè lateque dominatur In the thousand and foure hundreth yeare lib. 1. cap. 4. Iohannes vicesimus tertius wrote vnto the Oriental Church an Epistle declaring that there was but one Christian Church onely and that hee was head thereof and the Vicar of Christ The Grecians wrote backe to him this answere Potentiam tuam summam erga subâ—itos tuos firmiter credimus superbiam tuam summam tolerare non possumus auaritiam explâ—re non valemus Diabolus tecum quia Dominus nobiscum Thy great power ouer thy Subiects we firmly beleeue thy surpassing pride we can not tolerate thy auarice wee are not able to satisfie the diuell is with thee for the Lord is with vs. R. God be mercifull to vs. C. Amen Now Sir I must craue your licence for some friends are attending mee with whome I appointed to meete this houre R. Good reason but before you goe I would fain he are an answer to two questions which commonly they demand C. Which are those R. The one is Where was your Church before Luther the other Are all our fathers damned C. With a very good will But if you please deferre the conference concerning them till to morrow R. Let it be so now the Lord bee with you THE FIFTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein the common question of the Aduersaries is aunswered Where was your Church before LVTHER C. NOw Sir you remember you propouÌ„ded two questions to me yesternight R. It is very true and I would gladly heare your answere to them for my further resolution What thinke you then because you call Papistrie heresie are you of that minde that all our fathers are damned that no Papist can be saued C. I am not to iudge of mens persons many are called Papists who know not what Papistrie meanes and many liue Papists who dare not die Papists or if so they doe they know not what they doe But Papistrie it selfe I affirme it is a pernicious doctrine yea as the Apostle cals it a doctrine of diuels killing the Soules of them who beleeue it But this is the second of your questions which we will reserue till the next day R. Let it be so What then say you to the first Where was your Church before Luther C. Euen where our doctrine was sometime in one Countrie sometime in an other as it pleased God in his wise dispensatiâ—n who caries the light of his Gospell as he doth the Sunne â—hrough the World to illuminate Nations at sâ—uerall times therewith according to his will R. That is a faire Generall but will yee tell vs who were these What Countrie people What Doctors who taught as yee teach R. Looke the Churches of Asia Asricke and of Europe consider them as they were before the mysterie of iniquitie came to the hight and you shal see that they all had the same doctrine and forme of a Church that we haue in all substantiall points pertaining to Religion R. But you are not able to name one before Luther teaching in all things as he did C. This is a peece of Sophistrie whereby your deceiuers blind the ignorant R. How so should not the teachers of the truth agree in al things in one harmonie C. I grant they should and thanks be to God they doe also in al substantial things which are Articles of our faith But is this a good reason because some Doctors in some opinions differ whereof men may bee ignorant and saued neuerthelesse that therefore these Doctors teach no truth and their Churches are no true Churches R. That seemes to bee hard indeed C. You haue reason for you so to thinke for in one age Viâ—tor with the Church in the West was in a
shameles then the other plaine contrarie as I remember to the Apoles doctrine Let not a Woman forsake her husband who beleeues not if hee bee content to dwell with her C. You take it vp very well and you may see how Papistrie breakes the band of fellowship betweene Husband and Wife R. I see it indeed and this resolues me of an other doubt for I haue maruailed often what should mooue so many Ladies to become Catholique Roman but now I see it is a plausible Religion for such Wiues as are male-content with their Husbands for it loosâ—th them from that subiection where vnto God hath bound them C. Take the third It disslolues the bands betweene the Father and the Sonne Pater qui filium habet haereticum exhaereditare tenâ—turâ— talem filium A Father that is a Papist and hath â— Sonne that is a Protestant he is bound to disinherit him Again Prâ—pter haere sin patris sâ—lij sunt sui iuris by the Heresie of the Father the Childâ— is freâ—d â—rom obedience R. Fie vpon them that maintainâ— such grosse positions C. Yâ—t there is worse following Haeretici fâ—iâ— vel consanguineinon dicantur sed â—â—xâ—alegem sit mâ—nus tua super eos vt â—undas sanguinem ipsorum Heretiques may not bee termed Children nor Kinsmen but according to the olde Law thy hand must bee vpon them to spill their bloud There are all the bands of Nature Affinitie Consanguinitie destroyed by Papistrie and they thinke it lawful for Papists to slaie their own Children or their Kinsmen if they bee Protestants What thinke you is it good dwelling with such Vipers and are our Protestants wise to make alliance by marriages with them R. In good faith I am ashamed in their behalfe and I think it no maruell you call Papistrie a Pest of Common-wealthes C. You shall heare but one and I will trouble you with no more It dissolueth the band of subjection wherin people stand bound to their Princes Subditi licitè possunt haeretico domino negare obsâ—quium Popish Subjects may lawfully denie obedience to a Protestant King Againe Non licet Christianis tolerare regem Haereticum It is not lawfull for Christians to tollerate an Hereticall King they may expell him depose him yea murther him And this they say is agreeable to the Apostolique Doctrine R. Away with it for it may rather bee called a Doctrine of Deuils who is the Father of lies Seditions Diuisions and Murthers C. And yet these are the common lessons which are taught and practised by the Doctors and Disciples of that whorish Church of Rome But how falsâ—ly they call this Doctrine Apostolique Consider what was the Apostles Doctrin concerning the obedience of people vnto their Kings Read there what Saint Peter saith R. I perceiue he bids honour the King and commaunds the people to submit them selues vnto the King as Superiour or vnto Gouernours vnder him C. Very well Tell me now who was King and Supreâ—me Gouernour when Peter wrote this was it not Nero a vile Monster a bloudie Persecutor yet you see Peter bids not depose him farre lesse bids he kill him Looke againe to the Fathers of the Primitiue Church see Iustine Martyr Deum solum adoramus in alijs vobis inseruimus laeti Imperatores Principes honum esse profâ—tentes simul precantes vt cum imperiali potestatem sanam quoque menâ—em obtinere comperiamini We worship God only in all other things we serue you with gladnesse acknowledging you to be the Emperours and Princes of men praying also that with your Imperiall power yee may haue a sound mind Here you see in all thingâ— except in matter of Gods Worship Seruice professed to the Emperour and Prayer made for such Princes as are contrarie minded to Christianitie but no treason neiâ—her taught nor practised The like hath Ignatius Caesari subâ—iti estote in ijs quibus sine periculo est ipsa subiectio Bee subiect to Caesar in all thinges whâ—rein you may without peril of conscience And Tertullian also Coâ—imus Imperatorem vt hoâ—â—inem a Deo secundum solo Deo minorem VVee reuâ—rence the Emperour as next and immediate vnder God hauing none but God aboue him Againe Christianis nullius est host is nediùm Imperatoris quem sciens a Deo suo constitui necesse est vt ipsum diâ—igat reuereatur honoret salvum velit cum toto Romano Imperio A Christian is no mans Enemiâ— farre lesse the Emperours Enemie hee knowes that hee is placed by the Lord his God and therefore it cannot be but he must loue him reuerence him honour him and wish his safetie and the welfare of the Empire Let Papists now bee ashamed to pretend either Apostles or Apostolique men as if they were Patrons of that pernicious Doctrine whereby they teach their people to murther Princes if they be contrarie minded to them in Religion R. Doe it if they will they haue good cause C. Now Sir because to morrow is the Sabbath if you please to goe to the Church I will come and goe with you R. I am vâ—rie well content and I thanke you for it THE SEVENTH OR SABBOTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein the order obserued in the Church of SCOTLAND is declared to be conforme to the ancient order prescribed by the Apostles and practised in the Primitiue Church C. GOod morrow Sir are you ready to goe R. When you please C. What Church wil yee goe to or whom of the Preachers desire you to heare R. Make you the choice I will accompany you C. Let vs goe then because you are a ftranger here you will pardon me to goe before and shew you the way into the Church and shew you where you should sit R. I thank you for it What is this the people are going to doe C. They bow themselues before the Lord to make an humble confession of their sins and supplications for mercy which you will heare openlie read out by the publikâ— reader Now when it is done what thinke you of the prayer R. Truly I thinke there is no thing in it but that wherunto eueriâ— good Christian should say Amen and it hath done me much good to see the people with humble reuerence sighing and groning accompanie the praier vp to God But what goe they now to doe C. Euerie one is preparing as you see their Psalme-book that all of them with one heart and mouth may sing vnto the Lord. There is the Psalme which the Reader hath proclaimed if you please you may sing with them or if you caÌ„not follow them in your heart R. So I will What doth the Reader now is he making an other praier C. No yonder booke which now hee open is the Bible you will heare him read some portion of holy Scripture Vndâ—rstand you what he saies R. Yea for sooth wel enough for hee reades very distinctly C. These are the three exercises which are vsed in all our
congregations euerie Saboth one houre before the preacher come in first prayer then psalms then reading of holiâ— scriptureâ— and by these the hearts of â—he people are prepared the more reuerently to heare the word you see all is done with great quietnâ—sse deuotion and reuerence R. I see that indâ—ed C. We haue no serâ—ice hâ—re you see in a strange languâ—ge the Preacher speakes and the people prayes in their mother tongue but the new forme of the Romish Church is to haue all their diuine seruice in the latine tongue R. Truly I haue ofttimes maruelled at it what should moue them to make their praiâ—â—â— in a language the people vnderstands not C. Vitalianus Bishop of Rome was the first father of this nouelty R. Put what are they doing now C. You heare the third Bell ringing and in this space the reading ceaseth and at the â—nd of the Bel ringing the Preacher will come But till the Preachâ—r come in reade this place of the Apostle Saint Paul and you shall see what was the old form vsed in the Primitiue Church and that ours is very agreeabie vnto it Read the 1 Corinth 14. ver 6. And now Brethren if I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues what shall I profite you except I speake to you either by Reuelation or by knowledge or by prophesying or by doctrine 7 Moreouer things without life which giue a sound whether it be a pipe or a harpe except they make a distinction in the sounds how shall it be knowne what is piped or harped 8 And also if the Trumpet giue an vncertaine sound who shall prepare himselfe to battell 9 So likewise yee by the tongue except you vtter wordes that haue signification how shall it be knowne what is spoken for you shall speake in the aire 10 There are so many kindes of voices as it commeth to passe in the world and none of them is dumbe 11 Except I know then the power of the voice I shall bee vnto him that speaketh a Bâ—rbarian and hee that speaketh shall bee a Barbarian vnto me 12 Euen so forasmuch as yee couet spirituall gifts seeke that yee may excell vnto the edifying of thâ— Church 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue pray that hee may interpret 14 For if I pray in a strange tongue my spirit prayeth but my vnderstanding is without fruit 15 What is it then I will prâ—y with the spirit but I will pray with the vnderstanding also I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the vnderstanding also 16 Else when thou blessest with the spirit how shall hee who occupieth the roome of the vnlearned say Amen at the giuing of thankes seeing hee knoweth not what thou sayest 17 For thou verily giuest thaÌ„ks well but the other is not edified 18 I thank my God I speak languages more then yee all 19 Yet had I rather in the Church to speake fiue words with mine vnderstanding that I might also instruct others then ten thousand worâ—es in a straenge tongue You see here that by the Apostles precept the seruice of God in the publike assemblies of thâ— Church should be done in such a language as the people may vnderstand R. I see it indeed C. Now if it like you for your further confirmatioÌ„ I wil shew you how the same order which this day is obserued in our Church concerning the exercises of Gods worship was also obserued in the Primitiue Church neerest the Apostles dayes R. It likes me very well to heare it C. Then will I tell you it out of Iustin Maertyr R. What a Father was he C. A very ancient and learned man hee liued in the yeare one hundred and fiftie and of a Philosopher was conuerted to be a Christian he wrote to the Empâ—rour and Senate of Rome two Apologies in defence of Christian Religion in the secoÌ„d of them so he writes Die qui solis dicitur omnes qui in oppidis vel agris morantur vnum in locum conueniunt commentariâ—que Apostolorum vel Prophetarum scripta leguntur quandiu hora patitur deinde vbi is qui legit destitit is qui prae est admonet hortatur vt eâ— quae lecta sunt bona imitemur tum surgimus omnes ac compreâ—â—mur conclusisquâ— nostris precibus panis vinum aquae offeruntur tum is qui primum locum tenet â—odem modo preces gratiarumque actionem pro virili mittit populusque bene dicit dicens Amen ijs quae cum grâ—tiarum actione consecrata sunt vnusquisque participat eadem ad eos quiabsunt diaconis dantur perferenda Quibus copiae suppetunt ij si volunt quisque siâ—o arbitratu quod vult largitur quodque colligitur apud eum qui praest reponitur isque pupillis viduis ijs quos morbus aliaue caeusa inopes fecit ijs qui in vinculis sunt hospitibâ—s â—ubuenit Vpon that day which is called Sunday all Christians resident in townes and villages assemble in one place where the written Commentâ—ries of the Prophets and Apostles are read for the space of an howre the which being done the Preacher or President ouer the flocke admonisheth exhorts vs to follow the wholesome word read then get wee all vp and pray together our prayers being finished bread wine and water are presented and then the Preacher conceiues feruent praier and thanksgiuing and the people blesse God saying Amen then euery one taketh a part of these things which were consecrate by thaÌ„ksgiuing the same things also are giuen to the Deacons to beâ— conuaied to these who are absent And such as haue the things of this world contributes to the poorâ— as they please and that which is collected is giuen him in trust who is President hee therwith supports the widdow fatherlesse these whom sicknes or any other cause hath made indigent as also strangers and these who are imprisoned I might shew you the like out of of Tertullian in his Apologie aduersus Gentes Cap. 39. But now the time serues not R. It needes not for that place you haue brought from the Apostle and this other from Iustin Martâ—r may let any man see the order exercise which Christians of the church Primitiue obsâ—rued in their holy assemblies for I see no other thing among them as you said but publikâ— reading of the word in a plaine language done by the Reader till the Preacher come in theÌ„ publike singing of Psalms by all the people thâ—n preaching prayer and collection for the poore C. You take it vp very well and God be praised you see that same order among vs And you who haue seene their seruice dumb guise of their Masse their mumbling of prayers in the Latine tongue and the vnreuerent prophaning of the sabbath that is among their people for laâ—ke of discipline may soone discerne that how soeuer they brag of an Apostolike Church yet they haue not kept the ancient Apostolike order R. It is