Absurditie of the Demonstrator or all finite or infinite number must be chusers and opposers now They who can do no more but render an account or reason of their owne faith if they can do that must heare the audite and reckoning of others faith and trie their skill in high points of diuinitie and so the shepeheard not lead the sheepe but the sheepe the shepeheard for he must teach them the next day that examined him the day afore The 6. Demonstration They whose testimonie the people may best credite Demonstration must examine But the Elderships iudgement the people may best credite being a company of able and sufficient men Ergo All goeth to popular democracie Remonstrance To the Minor This is idem peridem The Eldership is nothing else but a few vnlearned people for the most part can no more iudge of gifts other then volubilitie of speach then a blind man of colours The 7. Demonstration They who can best perswade the people of his sufficiencie must examine Demonstration But the Eldership can best perswade Ergo To the Maior The Maior is false Remonstrance For a craftie Orator may seduce the people and best perswade in a bad matter To the Minor The bishop of the dioecesse and others vnder them can best iudge of the qualitie of learning themselues being learned As for the sillie Eldership they are vncunning to perswade and more vncunning to examine Lord what a confusion barbaritie and indignitie were this to haue vnlearned men examine ministers Can they tell who is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that neither know tongues arte liberall or methode nor can tell a Paralogisme when they heare it The sixt Chapter Assertion 1 ALl must be preachers receiued into the ministerie 2 The Church may not be gouerned by Commissaries Officials Chancellors The 1. Demonstration He that may be receiued into the ministerie Demonstration must be able to teach the people all that Christ commanded Mat. 28.20 Onely he that is able to teach the trueth and conuince the aduersarie can teach the people all that Christ commaunded Ergo none must be receiued into the ministerie but such as be able to teach the trueth and conuince gainesaiers To the Maior That whosoeuer may be receiued into the ministerie Remonstrance must be able to teach all that Christ hath commaunded for so is it here propounded vniuersallie is not true for then no man since the Apostles might or can now bee receiued to the ministerie Things that Christ commaunded to the Apostles were of two sortes either things for knowledge or for conuersation what was to be embraced and what eschewed For matter of knowledge it was so eminent in the Apostles being ledde by Gods spirite vnto all trueth as that they could not erre in their doctrine deliuered to the Churches and that the 72. Euangelists or any since were not indued with like measure of it Augustine Hierome with all the olde fathers and learned bishops that haue written haue both erred and therefore were not able to teach all knowledge that Christ had commanded his Apostles to know and in sundrie points of Scripture confesse their ignorance Beza and Caluine whose examples I vse because you doe most account of them doe differ in sundrie interpretations By this rule then the one of them light on whether it will was not able to teach all that Christ commaunded and commended to his Apostles and consequently no minister because none omniscient minister They doubt of some places and some Beza himselfe professeth he vnderstandeth not as that in the Corinthians Propter angelos and I know other places which I perswade my selfe verilie he vnderstood not at least not aright and shall not he be allowed with you an able minister Then woe be to your selues of the faction that are of this opinion for you will I hope giue place to Beza for sufficiencie in learning But especially woe to them that neuerthelesse thinke you ministers and receiue as they thinke sacraments at your hands yet in trueth nothing if wee might beleeue your owne doctrines The errour hereof riseth because the Demonstrator folowing the steps of the deuill when hee tempted Christ alleageth this Scripture defectiuelie Math. 4. For it is not teaching them all that I haue commaunded you but teaching them to obserue all that I haue commaunded you What that all nations should obserue all that Christ commaunded the Apostles either to know or to put in practise no but teach them to obserue what Christ commaunded the Apostles to haue obserued for the Apostles were to vse many things as Apostles which are not requisite of euery Christian to bee obserued and kept And as the Apostles knew many hid mysteries and depthes of knowledge which is not necessarie for euery minister to the being of his ministerie in that hie measure to know and as it is not necessarie to the being of euery Christian to haue as manie and as excellent degrees of knowledge as any bishop or minister of the worde else were no difference betweene teacher and scholer so I doubt not but that the Apostles were not indued with knowledge and other gifts all alike and therefore that the like inequalitie may bee of ministers amongst themselues and amongst common Christians in comparison one of another without derogating hereby from them the essence and being either of an Apostle minister or good christian The diuersitie of giftes are in all sortes of men of great multiplicitie and varietie and euery one hath not all but as pleaseth God to dispense There is in Scriptures milke and strong meate rudiments and perfection for a lambe to wade and an Elephant to swimme and yet as S. Augustine saith In these things which are plainly set foorth in Scripture are all things that containe faith or conuersation and maners of men Act. 20. And though S. Paul kept backe nothing of the whole will of God ver 27. from the ministers of Ephesus yet doeth hee expound himselfe afore vers 20. 2. Cor. 12. v. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I kept backe nothing that was profitable but haue shewed you c. For all was not profitable for them as namely he in reuelation heard words not to be spoken which was not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lawfull for man to vtter Euery minister cannot bee of perfectest knowledge and giftes as in the pricke of perfection for that which is superlatiue Arist in Topic. agreeth onely to one Are all Apostles are all prophets are all doctors 1. Cor. 12. v. 29 30. do all speake with tongues do all interprete c. Of necessitie therefore the ministers teaching of the people whether in matter of beliefe and knowledge or what to follow and eschew must be according to the proportion of his owne knowledge and gifts wherewith he is endued If notwithstanding all this ioined with the experience of ministers in all times and that which they might find
to Pastors and Doctors which onely remaine Ergo Elders and Deacons are both needlesse and vnlawfull neither will their old sillie shift shroud them viz. that Ministers of the word are there only meant First because no such distinction is there made or to be collected Vbi lex non distinguit nec nos debemus and they should least of all so gather who reason in all matters negatiuely out of Scriptures for either it must teach this distinction or else it is no good way that is taught Secondly for that Elders Deacons either are contained vnder some of these or else they haue no gifts or blessings from Christ annexed to their callings for that those are the gifts which Christ ascending gaue to his Church Thirdly because those officers mentioned Ephes 4. are giuen as sufficient of Christ not onely for the worke of the Ministerie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but for the gathering together of the Saints and building of the bodie of the Church two speciall effects if we should beleeue them of their presbyteries then what giftes will remaine and to what end which may be bestowed on their Elders and Deacons all that Christ gaue as themselues speake being appropriate and taken vp afore by others Or thus If all such gifts for the worke of the ministerie c. bee appropriate to Pastors and Doctors which still remaine then are the gifts peculiar to Apostles Euangelists and Prophets either ceased with them because seuerall functions they say haue alwayes seuerall and peculiar giftes è conuerso so that Pastors and Doctors shall not haue any gifts which any of the other three had or if this be absurd because Christ hath giuen them all to his Church as is there testified vntill we all meete together in the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God vnto a perfect man and vnto the measure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ which shall not bee till the consummation of all things therefore setting aside some extraordinarie points that were personall to some few in those times all these functions and offices are ordinarie and remaine still in the Church whatsoeuer some writers say to the contrarie albeit through the great diuersitie of the measure of gifts it be difficult to set downe certainly in all times what offices doe answer vnto which of euery of them But forsomuch as the consent of all ancient writers making bishops both a diuine institution sauing onely Hierome in two places being thereby also contrary to himselfe else-where and successors of the Apostles for the planting of sundrie Churches at first or establishing and gouerning Churches alreadie planted concurreth with the vniforme practise of all the Churches in the world from the Apostles time downeward and is not contraried by the worde therefore I mustneedes with that incomparable man Zanchus iudge their institution and office to bee of the holy Ghost Zanchus in confess as succeeding therein the Apostles As for an Archbishop he is a bishop of his seuerall dioecesse yet chiefe amongst many of a prouince for better direction of matters of order and for iustice vpon appellations which being but an accident maketh no seuerall kind of office therefore that addition to the Minor is vntrue whereof he is none because in all those offices the greater includeth the lesse and a bishop is both a successour of the Apostles and also a pastour or minister he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as S. Peter although in order chiefe Apostle yet a fellow elder in the lord For teaching and feeding to vse Saint Hieromes wordes Vt vnus idémque sit paster ouium magister hominum Ephes 4. one and the same man may bee a pastour amongst his sheepe and a Doctour amongst men Note the feature of this deformed argument If God hath giuen all sense and intelligence to T.C. and the Demonstrator which are but two men Absurdities of the Demonstrator which he is lead vnto by ignorance of All collectiue and All distributiue All the world besides are sencelesse and witlesse men If the lord hath put the spirite of wisedome and cunning into Bezaleel and Aholiab By this collection of the Demonstrator all the rest after are vnskilfull and vncunning men If God gaue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 omnem fidem to his 12. Apostles whereof Paul was none being borne out of due time Ergo Paul the Apostle had no faith The 5. Demonstration That office is vnlawfull which none may lawfully bestow Demonstration But none may lawfully bestow the office of the Archbishop because none can giue new gifts to adorne it withall Ergo vnlawfull To the Maior By this rule you may take exception to Moses Remonstrance and to S. Iohn Baptist who tooke not their office from man but from God Your Maior had bene true if the ground of it were Nemo sibi arroget honorem vnlesse he be called by God or by the ordinance of man vnderneath God To the Minor This is not onely vnreasonable but treasonable because the Queenes maiestie doth and ought to giue and bestow the office of the Archbishop vnto which office no extraordinarie but ordinarie gifts are belonging None can bestow saieth the Demonstrator the office of an Archbishop because he can giue no new gifts to garnish it withall Ergo according vnto him some may bestow the office of an Archbishop who is able to giue new gifts to adorne it withall But I would gladly for my instruction learn how they prooue the contradictorie Proposition vnto this viz. None can bestow an office of gouernment in charge vnlesse he giue new giftes to beautifie it withall or that office which holy Synode and Parliament doth allowe none can bestow As if the substance could not be without changeable Accidents and alterable qualities belonging vnto it Absurditie of the Demonstrator as if no man can bestow a new mantell vnlesse hee giue new buttons together with the mantell or none can bestow a clokebag on the maker of these woorthie Demonstrations vnlesse he giue new strings to tie both ends withall Thus I retort it vpon them That office which none may lawfully bestow is vnlawfull The office of their Pastors Doctors Elders and Deacons none can lawfully bestow because as they reason None can giue new giftes to adorne them withall more then they had afore their ordinations Ergo by this their owne position all those are vnlawfull If they answere God hath bestowed giftes on these offices alreadie wee replie that so hee hath giuen to Apostles and vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernements in the Church Rom. 12. a matter wherein Bishops and Archbishops are especially bestowed and yet as I haue shewed afore they must by their owne collection pull their Elders and Deacons out of that ranke for they are not once mentioned where the gifts are sayd to be giuen Eph. 4. but come cleane after the dole The 6. Demonstration If the office of an Archbishop be lawfull
without any such Eldership as is since dreamed of The 2. Demonstration As it was in the planting of the Church Demonstration so in the building it must be for euer But they ordeined neither Pastor nor Doctor Deacon nor Elder but to a place that had neede Ergo nor wee vntill there be neede The Demonstrator concludeth in the third figure Remonstrance and neuer a mood The Minor is negatiue contrarie to all lawe of apt conclusion To the Maior The Maior is too generall to be geneerally true Prophecie interpretation of tongues giftes of healing myracles were requisite in first planting of the Church all which are not required in building of the Church In Salomons time Infidels did helpe to set vp the materiall Church which afterward were debarred to come in or prophane the Church To the Minor Howe prooue you the negatiue vz. They ordeined neither Pastor c. vntill they had neede Why there is alwayes neede Messis multa operarij pauci a great haruest but fewe labourers Yet this Donec might be well spared vntill wee haue neede of it for they neuer made any when any place was voyde excepting Matthias case which was a singular case vna hirundo non facit ver one swallowe maketh no sommer vnlesse you meane of such an auoidance which is priuatione praeuia where neuer any was before and then it is true but farre estranged from your meaning In vacuum venerunt they made these officers where neuer any were before and quae nullius sunt in bonis cedunt occupanti To dismisse you without laughter due vnto your folly Absurditie of the Demonstrator let all the world iudge what a consequence this is In the beginning first planting of the Church they baptized in theriuer ergo we must christen our children in the riuer The Churches were in priuate houses ergo we must practise our religion in our priuate parlours In the first they had communitie of goods 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ergo none may nowe possesse in vse ought that hee hath but as they brought and layde it downe at the Apostles feete euen so wee must lay downe our substance at the doctors and pastors feete As it was in the planting so it must bee in the building of the church for euer But Apostles the first planters were called by Gods owne immediate voyce being men vnlettered to them were 72. euangelists adioyned and after prophets ergo the church must bee built by these and such like for euer and consequently they are not ceased as elsewhere you affirme The 3. Demonstration These things that are of one beginning continuance and ending Demonstration cannot be one before and after another But the minister and the execution of his ministery be relatiues ergo a minister ought not to bee ordeyned before there bee a ministerie whereunto he is allotted To the Maior Albeit in this paralogisme are 4. termini Remonstrance because hee concludeth the ministerie of a certaine person instead of the ministerie of a certaine place yet my answere is Those things c. cannot be but one before and after another that is idem subiecto one and the same in subiect which is a contradiction to it self that one thing is one and the same and yet one and the same is prius posterius seipso before and after it selfe To the Minor But they are relatiues sayth the demonstrator say I not proper but improper viz. a minister and his ministerie to a determinate place for a minister if you will make a reference is a minister of a ministerie be it gospel or lawe his ministerie is not precisely tied to a certaine place although his care must be to doe good at once in one place his readines to do good and that in euery place God chose his Apostles whome after his ascension hee sent into all places They who conuert infidels are not sure of intertaynement This argument proceedeth not but retroceedeth against themselues Those new fangled runners before they are sent Retortion haue no ordination or designement to a certain place ergo their ministerie is a nullitie and without lawfull calling according to them selues in whatsoeuer place as if they will they shal heare in particular for none more factious then those who haue no sette places but intrude vpon others and winne credit of zeale by nouelties and defacing of the ministers of the place The 4. Demonstration If none ought to bee called a shepheard that hath no flocke of sheepe to keepe Demonstration nor watchman which is not allotted to a place to watch then none may be ordeyned to any office before the place be voyd the 1. is true Ergo the second I denie the antecedent and sequel of the same Remonstrance for a man may be called a shepheard and haue neuer a flocke of sheepe of his owne or others to keepe as many poore men who are expert in the knowledge and are not worth a sheepe or as Iacob he and his fathers were shepheards accounted themselues so in the presence of Pharao for that was their trade Or a man may bee called a captaine if he haue instruction of military discipline though he doe not euer leade a bande of souldiers denomination is rather of the habit then of the acte If a shoomaker haue sold all his shoes or a grasier all his cattell belike their trades and names are cleane gone Now farther to say that none may be called to the promotion of a shepheard vnlesse forthwith some man deliuer him a flocke of certaine sheepe it is a pretie imagination as if he could be his craftsmaster before his craftsman But to the sequel of the Antecedent this is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to argue hee cannot bee made a shepheard before a place bee voyde Ergo hee cannot be made a minister before the place be voyde This is easily auoyded For no man is so made a minister for a particular parish or small precinct of place as that his ministerie were gone if the parish were dispeopled and the houses burnt vp but hee is made a minister for the church of Englande whersoeuer his seruice shall be required in the prouince or place This is an olde stoppegamball No more coates then backes to weare them No more ministers then places to dispose them The ministerie shal be like to a drawebridge keepe them sure enough that are within keepe them secure enough from dealing in the ministerie who albeit of their pure zeale as many with vs which would preache the gospel because of lacke of roome shal be faine to stand without The first therefore is false and semblably the second How doth the olde rule holde nowe One shepheard must haue one flocke by their delineation or many shepheards may not haue one flock for feare of thronging or intrusion which otherwhiles they admit of the puritane transformation vnum ad vnum est aptissimum one is
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance with reply a very barbarisme or nugation for it followeth that they diuided Churches into Churches for the Church alwaies is a Congregation You might haue quoted if you had a quote where the Apostles by constitution did diuide nationall Churches into Diocesses or Diocesses into Parishes The Councell of Nice in very deede appointed to bishops certaine of them their bounds and limits of iurisdiction though sundrie bishoprikes were appointed before In which diuision the diuision of the ciuil state of Rome into Prouinces Diocesses Prefectures De Rep. Rom. c. was for the most part followed as Lazius testifieth The fourth Chapter Assertion of the Demonstrator IT belongeth to the Church to elect the Officers which Christ would haue placed Demonstration and not to the Patrons c. Therefore that which is practised in the Church of England must returne to Antichrist The practise of this Church is neither of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance false Christ nor of Antichrist but drawne from the purest times of the Primitiue Church For neither in the Apostles times nor any times after that I can reade of is there pregnant proofe to be found that for the choise and ordination presbyteri alicuius of any priest or pastorall elder onely for there were no Lay elders heard of any moe then one bishop was required In deede when a bishop was to be chosen it is often to be founde in the Primitiue Church that the priestes or pastorall elders which for most part then liued in the great cities where bishops Sees were planted though according as the bishops thought good they were sent out into the territorie a dioyning to preach baptize and minister the supper being with the people assembled and often with the Metropolitane and some other bishops direction did nominate whome they thought good to haue chosen for their bishop whome if the people liked they would crie Dignus est iustus est he is well worthie he is a iust man If they liked him not who was named they would with great clamours yea often times with outrages of blowes and murther importune them to another nomination So that there was no scrutinie of suffrages of the people as hauing interest but a tumultuarie proceeding and acclamation or exclamation of the multitude present at such actions Therefore the olde Canons speaking hereof doe vse for the most part but the wordes Testimonij ciuium conscientiae populi of testimonie of Citizens and knowledge of the people with which these elections of bishops onely were made but because they breede great tumults sedition and murders as the ancient Fathers and histories of the Church testifie they were abrogated both by counsell and appointment of Christian Emperours vpon whome by lawe the people in al matters had bestowed their whole right since which time the priests of seuerall Sees in the name of the rest which we cal now the Chapters of Cathedral Churches haue had the election of their bishops being if the Emperour or prince thought good directed to some one speciall man by his nomination In England according to the auncient common law of the land the prince granteth leaue to the Chapter to elect a bishop to the void See which licence is called Conge d'eslire and withall sendeth letters to them nominating him whom her maiestie vpon graue aduise of her honourable counsell iudgeth fit requiring their choise of him The election being made she giueth her roiall assent vnto it requiring the Archbishop to confirme the election if it be dulie canonically made after with two other bishops to consecrate the elect the day and place for confirmation whereof is published a competent time afore that if anie thinke good to propound against the person of the man or forme of election they may be heard After this confirmation followeth the consecration according to the prescription of the booke then is the bishop to doe his homage personallie to her maiestie for his temporall reuenues and after to haue them restored vnto him Now to the temporalties of a bishoprike a Baronrie by law is annexed whereby he is a lord of the parliament Other ministers in the dioecesse are to be examined approoued and ordained by the bishop hee and such other ministers as be present at the ordination laying their hands vpon them And when any is presented to a set place or benefice by the patrone thereof the bishop is to examine his life and learning and to institute him in title thereunto after hee haue approoued of him This course of placing in the title of certaine roumes or benefices grew by these degrees and meanes which will not be amisse also to point at because many that will needs be medling either know it not or are wilfullie ignorant At first as was shewed afore the bishop and all his clergie liued in a kind of communitie in the citie wherof he bare the name of bishop he and they going abroad at certaine most conuenient times to preach and minister the Sacraments in the territorie adioining at what time all Church reuenues of the whole dioecesse whether landes tithes oblations or legacies were in common amongst them but at the distribution of the bishop One fourth part whereof was emploied pro mensa episcopali for the B. hospitalitie another to maintaine those of the Clergie the third for building and repairing the churches of the citie rest of the dioecesse the fourth for redemption of captiues for the poore for other godly vses But when sundry persons partly vpon deuotion and partly the rather induced to haue the nominating of a Minister thereto had built and endued diuers Churches in places farre distant in the countrey abroad so that so many seuerall parishes could not conueniently nor so often be respected by those who attended alwaies about the Bishop sauing at certaine set times and that the former cōmunitie began through multitude of the clergy being for the most part in one place and sundry other inconueniences to bee ouer-troublesome and also enuious then in most parts of the christian world they grew to a diuision of all the church reuenues so that the bishop the clergie that was to remain in the cathedrall church of the chiefe citie and the clergie of the rest of the dioecesse had euery of them their seuerall portions allotted as was thought expedient Out of which euerie of them seuerallie besides their owne maintenance was afterward to defray for the reparation of the fabrikes that were to be vpholden by them to relieue the poore c. as their seuerall abilities should serue In so much as the bishop who first was as a common past our of the whole dioeces as the common law also at this day doth account him and had afore towards the vses aforesaid the common reuenues of the Church in title as a kind of proprietarie himselfe did then at the presentation of the founders or Patrons to whom the Canons gaue
your cures when you are at Synodes at your Classies at Termes at Parliamentes in visiting your friendes in halfe a dozen shires The 3. Demonstration That which is from Antichrist is vnlawfull Demonstration To haue more then one is from Antichrist Ergo vnlawfull I may reason also thus euen with as great probabilitie To follow the example of S. Paul is to follow Christ Remonstrance To haue more charges to looke vnto then one is to follow S. Paul cura omnium ecclesiarum incumbit mihi I beare a care of all Churches Ergo to haue more charges then one is to folow Christ Ergo it is not simpliciter euil to haue more charges then one For none can follow two contrary masters Christ Antichrist neither is it absolutely to haue more charges then one deriued from Antichrist and therefore your Minor is false The 4. Demonstration That which declareth a minister to be more desirous of the fleece then to profit the flocke that is vnlawful But moe charges then one is so Ergo. Demonstration This fallacie is non causa pro causa Remonstrance To haue more charges then one proceedeth not from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 couetise of more but from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sufficiencie or competencie of liuing and from priuiledge fauour of the law For they that preach the Gospell must liue of the Gospel as also the Geneua note vpon these words 1. Timoth. 5.17 Qui benè praesunt presbyteri duplici honore digni sunt that is they must haue sufficiēt maintenance But that expositiō is not the only meaning of the text for double honour is something more then sufficient maintenance the proportion is double 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Now double is more then sufficient and honor presupposeth maintenance or els it wil be very single honor The 5. Demonstration He may not haue more charges Demonstrator vnlesse he be willing to be quartered that euery charge may haue a peece The Demonstrator is at great coste and charges to bestowe this argument Remonstrance but I take it that if euery quarter of the Citie had a quarter of him that made this Demonstration and many like to this whatsoeuer came to the H. mans part he could not boast of the least fraction vna quarta one fourth part of an honest man The 6. Demonstration or Allegation Hooper vpon the 8. commandement reckoneth them among theeues and their actions theeuerie Demonstration by that commandement His wordes are 76. pag. super 8. com Such as liue of spirituallty thes Remonstrance c. who do neglect their dutie in teaching office commit sacriledge he speaketh against vnable men or those who haue more then competency with vndesert The 2. Assertion of the Demonstrator One minister may not haue soueraigne authoritie and Lordship ouer his fellowe ministers Demonstration The Demonstrator cannot distinguish betweene soueraigntie dominion Remonstrance or entier Lordship which is one thing and superioritie or authoritie ouer others which are different things both in Church and Common-wealth The 1. Demonstration They that haue their commission indifferently giuen them without difference are equall Demonstration and not one aboue another But such is the commission of all Ministers 28. Matth. 19.20 ergo equall not one aboue another To the Maior Although par in parem non habet imperium Remonstrance touching the commission yet in other respects in comparably they may be superior one vnto another as experience daily teacheth If you were in a commission of peace c. with my Lorde Treasurer would you be his equall therefore and as good as he To the Minor There are two commissions included in 28. Matth. One as they were Apostles chiefe builders and planters of Churches in which respect they had also gouerment authoritie ouer them and such they also gaue to bishops of places as Timothie and Titus whome they so ordeined Another in that they are also Pastors and herein euery minister is their successor as bishops only in the other respect The one bringeth equalitie in the essence for the exercise of the ministerie the other an inequalitie of authoritie rule that are exercised in the Church and must be for gouernment and order An instance is the very example of the Apostles whereof some were chief pillars chiefe Apostles Iames a standing superior amongst the Apostles at Ierusalem Act. 15. 2. Cor. 12. Bishops and ministers are for their ministerie equal but for order policie of the Church in gouernment vnequal This is both Caluins and Bezaes answer The 2. Demonstration That which Christ hath directly forbidden is for euer vnlawfull Demonstration But Christ hath directly forbidden this dominion of one minister ouer an other Matth. 20.25 Luc. 22.25 Ergo To the Maior This is directly auerred for that is directly forbidden Remonstrance which by one of the 10. commandements or by some new commandement or speciall forbode is forbidden not that alwaies which in the letter of the word seemeth forbidden Els were it not lawful to sweare at al nor to cal any mā your father on earth nor to preach to the Gentiles Christ forbiddeth arrogant dominion or domination not all authoritie Absolute tyrannicall dominiō is forbidden among all christiās Aristot in his politikes maketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the dominion of Barbarians To your places the answer is Our Sauiour destroyeth not there either his owne primacie or the superioritie of the Apostles ouer other callings ecclesiasticall inferiour but rather establisheth it attempering them neuertheles to humilitie He that is great or will be great amongst you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let him be your seruant or as Luke 22. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that is greatest let him be as punie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the chiefest as he that serueth he doth not deuest himselfe of lawful superioritie but willeth them after his owne example to be inuested with humilitie for he himselfe did not degrade himselfe from his supremacie when by washing of their feete he serued them But because this is a matter that they do no lesse insist vpō and applaud vnto themselues in then the papists doe in their Hoc est corpus meum I wil craue leaue that I may a litle dilate hereupon further then that breuitie requireth which I first propounded to my self In those two places of S. Mathew S. Luke are to be cōsidered both what Christ reprooued also the general doctrine which by that occasion he deliuered If both the stories be to be vnderstood of one action then must we interprete that the contention of all the Apostles who of them should be the greatest mentioned by Luke had his original occasion of the request of Zebedees children at which the other Apostles tooke indignation as Mathew testifieth both they and all the Apostles dreamed of an earthly kingdom of Christes and therefore to sit at his right hand and at his
answered before cap. 1. not to concerne any pollicie of Elders Remonstrance but to keepe the general commandement of the lawe of the spirite of life they might as well say that the commaundement to drinke no water were meant by that place The holie ghost hath there warily vsed the singuler number 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which nowe you woulde make to pertaine to the perpetuitie of euerie thing conteined in that Epistle if it did so yet could it not helpe you for there is no such commandement for anie such Elders in that whole Epistle no nor anie mention by the way of them The 17. Demonstration That which is in euery ministers commission must be in euery congregation Demonstration But the ordination and practise of this office Mat. 28.20 is so or els they ordeined elders without warrant from Christ Ergo they must be in euery congregation Ex nihilo nihil fit Of nothing commeth nothing Remonstrance This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a great space betwene these two go 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make Disciples or teache all nations Ergo make vnpreaching Presbyters in all nations This the Demonstrationer made the Ministers Commission afore and is it nowe the Commission for vnteaching Elders to be ordained in euery place The reason of the Minor is false for neyther made they any such Elders in euery congregation neither doeth their authoritie for ordinations and sundry other points of Church-gourernment depend only vpon that Commission which respected the ministery of the word and Sacraments The 18. Demonstration Where a Bishop must be Demonstration Elders must be A Bishop must be in euery Congregation Ergo Elders This Demonstration is no guest but an ordinarie seruant Remonstrance for this serueth your turne often 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The one of these is no better knowne then the other there must be parish Bishops Ergo parish elders And it followeth not by any coherence any more then this There must bee a Constable in euery towne Ergo 24. Aldermen The 19. Demonstration If the Apostles established one vniforme order in al Churches Demonstration then there must be Elders in euery congregation but the first is true Ergo the second For S. Paul saith thus I teach in all Congregations To the Antecedent This is the fallacie of consequence Remonstrance The Apostles did stablish vniformitie for essentiall points of discipline but left not any policy for Lay elders The consecution of the maior is false Can there be none vniformity except such your Elders were euery where appoynted who indeede were nowhere To the Assumption S. Paul might very well leaue all pointes of wholesome doctrine all good order for the Church but neuer institute the particularities of your discipline The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator God hath giuen soueraigne authoritie ouer the Church to Christian Magistrates Demonstration which these Elders would abridge Answere of the Demonstrator No more then the eldership in Dauids time did abridge Dauids soueraignty ouer all Israel for his gouernment is temporall theirs is spirituall O foolish answere Remonstrance and fond conceite of an imaginable Elderdership in Dauids time who can abide this Master Elders haue spirituall gouernment but Kings and Queenes noursing fathers and mothers of the Church haue but ciuill and temporall gouernement onely ô tempora ô mores or as the learned discourse saith The prince is but a feeling member of the church the heads and chiefe gouernors are the ecclesiasticall Aldermen or presbyterie of the Church That yours abridge the Queenes soueraigntie is a little touched afore and shall more plainlie be shewed when you are at leasure to heare The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Demonstration Gualt 1. Cor. 5. denieth the presbyterie to be needfull vnder a christian magistrate Answer of the Demonstrator Gualter denieth excommunication to be lawfull vnder a Christian magistrate He is as partiall as D. Whitgift It may be Gualter and others may denie it to be of the essence of a Church or rash excommunication Remonstrance with reply then the which nothing is more Anabaptisticall or where hope of repentance is he is not partiall nor he that taketh part in a good cause As for Gualters opinion if hee vtterly denie excommunication Pro Coelio Nolo cuiusquam fortis illustris viri vel minimum erratum cum maxima laude coniungere But it is vntrue to say he simplie denieth it or if hee did erre herein doth he therefore erre in the other But if you can so soone shake off Gualter in this point for his errout as you fansie in the other then may we also reiect Caluin in a matter whereof he was first father for his error against the lawfull supremacie of Christian princes in causes ecclesiasticall The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator Demonstration The Prince hath the authoritie which the Elders had Answer That is no truer then to say the Prince hath authoritie to preach which he must see done The Eldership you say may make ecclesiasticall lawes Remonstrance with replie may censure and excommunicate In taking these from the Prince to be done by her Delegates doe you not denie her Supremacie as for any ordaining shee may euen as well as your Eldership doe it but God forbid shee should claime it as they very absurdly doe HIErgo by this grosse position the prince must waite in euery place to see the elderships their dueties done but it is certaine Ex quolibet sequitur quidlibet in maintaining this imagination as for the Prince to see it done by your Elderships is a seruilitie and no soueraigntie especially when you say and T.C. before you that the princes must subiect them selues and submit their scepters and throwe downe their crownes before the Church and for the Church you roundly interprete the Presbyterie Absurditie of the Demonstrator Princes must lieprostrate to the Presbyterie And if your Elderships in deede haue this authoritie by their right in causes ecclesiasticall which the Prince must but see done then doe not they slaunder you which say you giue to the Prince potestatem facti non iuris and so yeelde her iust as large a supremacie as the Papistes doe Demonstrations to proue the eldershippe necessarie vnder Christian princes as in the Apostles time The 1. Demonstration The lesse able the ministers are to direct in godlines Demonstration the more neede they haue of Elders but ministers nowe vnder Christian magistrates are lesse able by reason of ease and peace Ergo. To the Maior Nay the more neede they haue of preachers and labourers in the haruest Remonstrance the more neede of discreete ouerseers not those pragmaticall busie-body elders To the Minor Doe not say that Salomon forbiddeth you say the dayes are worser nowe rather then the dayes of olde for that were a foolish thing Our dayes are blessed dayes blesse God for them This fallacie is secundùm non causam vt
vrged in perpetuitie but yet for any such Eldership we hold there is neither commaundement nor example for one time nor for other The 4. Demonstration That whose partes are perpetual perpetuall giftes with it that is perpetuall Demonstration But the seuerall partes of the Eldership as Pastor Doctor Elder are perpetuall as it is proued in the 10. and 12. cap. Ergo To the Maior It is false for that whose partes are decaying and ruinated Remonstrance Plutarch in Theseo may neuerthelesse bee continuing or perpetuall as the shippe wherein Theseus sayled into Candie to subdue the Minotaure kept by the Athenians vnto the time of Pericles euerie planke and piece altered and yet the same shippe as also our common wealth and Vniuersities are the selfe same they were 200. yeres agoe though neuer a man of that age of life To the Minor Your answere hath bin many times before they are not perpetuall as partes of any eldership Pastours and Doctours are perpetuall as an entire office or ministerie in the Church as for Elders as you meane them they are in praedicamento nusquam and therefore they and their giftes are no partes nor yet entire officers in the Church I take your fallacie to be Elder is perpetuall and shippe is perpetual which are partes Ergo the whole Eldership is perpetuall or that your eldership is in the letters of the Alphabet Ergo in the scripture The 5. Demonstration That which is grounded on the generall commaundement of scripture Demonstration is perpetuall but the gouernment by the Eldership in election ordination censure c. is so proued in the seuerall Ergo This Syllogisme is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mere trifling and tumbling vp and downe in cloudes of generalitie Remonstrance a meere daliance and faileth of prouing If elections and ordinations be named in scripture cannot they be done by any means but by such an eldership as you speake of your Minor is false The 6. Demonstration That gouernment which hath power from God to beginne continue and strengthen both the gouernours Demonstration and the people in their callings and obedience to Christ that is perpetuall But so is the gouernment by the eldership because the Apostles vsed none other Ergo The Maior draweth a goodly large compasse Remonstrance yet false as you thinke for the Apostles Euangelists and Prophets had that vertue and yet are ceassed But proue the Minor by some quotation of a Text that your Eldership is so because the Apostles vsed no other and that they vsed it or else I will not beleeue it for your sake or for T. C. your maister for whose sake you beleeue it In the meane season all that you depaint out for your Eldershippe is a picture or poetrie vt pictura posuerit The 1. Demonstration That gouernement which the twelue Apostles Demonstrat and Paul before they consulted together did vniformely agree vpon and neuer repealed must needes be of God and perpetuall But such is the Eldership as all the aduersaries do agree thereupon Ergo To the Maior The Maior is a contradiction to your owne conscience Remonstrance for what reason may this be They did neither conferre vpon it nor consult together nor made another priuie nor asked one another aduise nor by cōmandement enioyned nor by tradition receiued it and yet they did vniformely according to one forme paterne condescend agree vpon it as much to say they did agree that is they did not agree vele contra did not agree Ergo agree To the Minor Such is not the eldership for the Demonstrator hath no scripture no Synod of the Apostles for it It is a shame to charge vs with the acknowledging of it The 8. Demonstration That which hath the same grounds Demonstration which the preaching of the worde and ministration of the Sacraments that is perpetuall but such is the eldershippe grounded vpon the commaundement of Christ and his Apostles and their practise Ergo. To the Minor This is saucily spoken but not so soone proued Remonstrance To make your eldership equiualēt in durablenes with the word of God which is more lasting then heauen and earth for the heauen and earth shal passe but the word of the Lord endureth for euer The eldershippe after your proiect is not so much nor euer was temporarie much lesse perpetuall either by commandement or practise The 9. Demonstration That which hath like grounds to be perpetuall as the Apostles Demonstration Prophetes Euangelistes to be temporall that is perpetuall but such is the Eldership for the gifts of the immediate calling are gone and the gifts of these are left Ergo To the Maior I denie the Maior if you meane euery Apostleshippe Remonstrance Euangelist or Prophets office for there are yet Apostles Legatione pro Christo fungimur wee are Embassadors or Apostles for Christ though not immediatly called thereunto It is shewed before that they be in that place perpetuall aswell as Pastors or Doctors 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 till wee all meete together c. Ephes 4. but that which was extraordinary in their offices is ceassed as the immediate calling which the Demonstrator absurdly calleth a gift Pastors also then had gifts extraordinary of healing and working other myracles which though they be ceassed the whole office is not To the Minor There is no proportion betweene ens non ens betweene Eldership which neuer was and the Apostles 12. or 72. that sometime were The giftes for teachers and spirituall gouernours are left but the figment of the Eldership hath no shewe of them What giftes of gouernment hath one of your Elders after imposition of hands more then afore and doe you choose all that can gouerne neither part of your Minor is true for neither are sundrie of the Apostles Euangelists or Prophets giftes ceassed neither haue your Elderships any peculiar giftes to such an office remaining in euery congregation The 10. Demonstration The ordinary remedie to cure diseases is perpetuall Demonstration the Eldership is so for Dic Ecclesiae will cure the diseases of the Church Ergo. To the Maior This Maior will make Apostles Remonstrance Euangelists and Prophetes perpetuall who were such remedies in their times To the Minor Supposing that which ought not be supposed any conclusion foloweth thereupon as for the elderships physicke or chirurgerie al that followeth thereupō is but palliatiua cura a pretēce of cure and if by dic Ecclesiae the eldership be meant then shal the church be an ordinary remedy to cure the diseases of the Church that is of it selfe The 11. Demonstration That gouernment which was vnder the lawe in respect of the substance continued in the Gospel Demonstration and bettered by the accidents that is perpetual but such is the Eldership 12. reason of the 1. cap. Ergo. To the Maior If you can or haue proued the beginning of the eldership in the law Remonstrance
continuance in the Gospel let it stand to the worldes end if not quid dignum tanto feret hic promissor hiatu To the Minor The madde sicknesse of your reason and disproportion appeareth in the answere there There is no correspondence of any eldership either to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the greater number of 70. or of the 23. which is said to be the lesse which do you challenge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speake plainely if you dare or else the reason will retire vpon you thus That gouernment which neuer was vnder law or Gospel Retortion for essence or accidence of Church pollicie may not be continued or begun in the Church The eldership fancied ouer men matters hath neither originall of time nor priuiledge of authoritie Ergo the golden eldership may not begin or continue in the Church The 12. Demonstration If this eldership be alterable being once setled Demonstration either it is in respect of the extraordinary offices ceassed or of the addition of the magistrate Not the first for if the Church doeth neede God doth euer giue giftes extraordinary nor the secōd for the magistrate is to defēd the building of the church Ergo. You might haue saued your paines in the antecedent Remonstrance for alteration foloweth or succeedeth that which was and doth not succeede that which is not That which neuer was in the church admitteth no alteration no more then Tragelapsus or Hyppocentaurus or the man in the moone if you wil haue an issue in the question let it be this where a Christian magistrate is there needeth no eldership it is ex super abundanti and where it wanteth God also hath other wayes then by such mixture of offices to gouerne the church But thus I retort To euery institution of his that hath neede Gods sends gifts extraordinary To your elders that want ordinary giftes fitte for so great gouernment hee sendeth no gift extraordinary Ergo your Eldership is not his institution The 13. Demonstration Either this is the best gouernment and perpetuall or none at all Demonstration but some gouernment must be the best and perpetuall Ergo this is perpetuall This is handsomely concluded this is best and worst Remonstrance or none at all better none at all then neuer a whit the better better nothing then this Anarchicall or tumultuarie gouernment vnlesse perchance you holde praestat malè esse quà m non esse But there is a Christian ecclesiasticall gouernment already though you will not see it Christ in the middest of vs though some do not know it You must proue your disiunctiue Maior a litter better The 14. Demonstration Demonstrat Cofes Helue Tig. Ber. Gen. Pol. Hu. Scot. Horm Cap. 8. No man may iustly forbid de to returne to the olde constitution of the Church of God If you proue this to be the olde and the institution to be for a perpetuitie then this olde constitution is the best Remonstrat The 15. Demonstration Experience teacheth this order was not for one but necessary for all ages Demonstrat Caluin inst lib. 4. cap. 3. sect 8. It is certaine that experience proueth it not so necessarie nor profitable for else the Apostles would not haue instituted and al succeeding ages followed so diuers an order of Church gouernmēt by Byshops which Zanchus thinketh was of the holy Ghost The 16. Demonstration Though the common wealth change her gouernment Demonstra P. Mar. 3. Rom the Church must keepe hers That is Remonstrance the lawes of the eternall lawgiuer for the essentiall matters of the Church gouernment not external pollicie which is variable Belike your meaning is our common wealth must change our Monarchie into Tetrarchie to establish your Tetrarchicall gouernment of the Church The 17. Demonstration Bucer dereg Christi lamenteth that some would not haue the same discipline vsed now adayes which was vsed in the Apostles time Demonstration And so may we lament the foolish and proud resistance which is made to the superioritie of our prelates and gouernours Remonstrance which is no other then that was The 18. Demonstration Whittaker contra Duraeū speaking of discipline Demonstration The Apostles haue written these lawes not for a day or for the first age but for all times to come and that with obtestation 1. Timoth 6. Aetatem habet Remonstrance the man is of discretiō let him answere for him selfe It cannot be he meant your rules of discipline he knoweth the absurditie of it and that your presbyterium est figmentum humanum and is no such commandement as Paul maketh obtestation to haue kept The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator By this euery Parish shall follow Demonstration their Seniors and then there will be so many diuers fashions seeing one may not meddle with another Answer of the Demonstrator The gouernment desired is vniforme for euery Church and admitteth no change not in outwarde ceremonies without a Synode of choise men out of euery Eldership Here is nothing but eldership vpō eldership Remonstrance with reply infinite elderships which the word of God describeth not what neede we exchāge the vniformitie which we already haue for that which is at the least suspicious to any well-sighted eye if not pernitious But if one Eldershippe will breede molestation in the planting of it at all aduentures what a doe will it make in the supplanting thereof Quae nascentia mala sunt ea crescentia peiora They must haue he saith vniformitie euen in ceremonies not to be changed without a Synode of choise men And were not ours so established And yet they will not obserue them May not we make as bolde with their ceremonies and vse as small vniformitie as they doe now The 2. obiection of the Demonstrator If the Eldership being meane men choose an Erle he must be at their becke The answere of the Demonstratour Demonstrat No man chosen is compelled against his will but he that despiseth to consult with others in Gods matters because they be poore reprocheth God that made them 17. Prou. 5. Heare this O ye princes and Earles of the land you must be at the Elders becke and commaunde Remonstrance or else you blaspheme your and their maker Salomons words are 17. Prou. 5.14 cap. 31. verse He that mocketh or he that oppresseth the poore not a word of Elders This is a contradiction to your selfe Any Earle or any man may choose or refuse to take it vpon him because euery one hath a negatiue voyce and yet he must be taken to disdaine if he doe refuse The 3. obiection of the Demonstrator It ouerburdeneth the Parish to prouide for so many Elders to be nourished Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator They shall not neede vnlesse they neede the liberalitie of the Church They shall not neede vnlesse they need This is a fine reciprocation Remonstrance They will neede foorth with
exercise the censure of excommunication as they are called vnto it As for the second they were not vnlike our Church wardens or Sidemen if any such were which I rather beleeue not The 14. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat Idem ibidem It is dangerous to permit to one man Hee doeth not say It is vnlawfull for one to doe it Remonstrance neither can it be dangerous in open Consistorie being directed by lawe when wherefore and against whom to doe it for so it is lesse dangerous then if many had to doe in it going onely of head and without all forme or direction of lawe as is vsed by your Elderships The 15. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat Caluin instit li. 4. c. 11. sect 6. It openeth a way to tyrannie and abrogateth the Ecclesiastical Senate ordeined by Christ It is false For vnder a Christian Prince and pastorall Elders the spirituall iurisdiction is exercised lawfully without tyrannie Remonstrance Why bring you not Cartwr also to proue it Caluin was the first in all the world that erected such a Senate The 16. Allegation The Bishops of themselues if they excommunicate doe it ambitiously contrary to the Canons See Bucer against Gropper Ephes 4. de animi cura Demonstrat Idem Instit 4. li. 12. cap. Sect. 6. and Swinglius in Ecclesiast According to your quotation I finde no such place in Caluin Remonstrance When you alledge thus in grosse you must not looke to be answered in particular As for the Bishops excommunication it is according to S. Pauls practise 1. Corinth 5. where he excommunicated Hymeneus and Alexander 1. Tim. 1. ca. The 17. Allegation Demonstrat See the Abstract pag. 165. It is forbidden by that filthie puddle the Canon lawe That is filthily spoken Remonstrance If the Abstracter had vnderstoode the lawes hee bringeth hee might haue founde an answere where he found the obiection But is this with our Demonstrator a good argument The Canon law forbiddeth it Ergo vnlawful It so forbiddeth Priestes mariage and the Communion in both kindes Are they therefore vnlawfull The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator The right of excommunication was in S. Paul and not in the rest Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator He gaue onely the direction otherwise if they had not done it hee had remained vnexcommunicate If they neuer had denounced and published the excommunication yet S. Paul had neuerthelesse excommunicated him Remonstrance with reply and also the chastisement had proceeded on him And might they lawfully haue disobeyed the Apostles iudgement or crossed his determination The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Christ gaue Peter and euery Apostle power to binde and loose which the interpreters expound excommunication Demonstrat Matth. 18. Answere of the Demonstrator That was power of preaching in denouncing Gods iudgement or pronouncing his mercies not of this action It is to be vnderstoode of both Remonstrance with reply the wordes are almost all one Iohn 20.22 v. Matth. 16.20 v. and Matth. 18. Albeit the place includeth that binding and loosing which is by preaching of the worde it doeth not exclude binding and loosing which is in excommunication and absolution by power of the word See Chrysostome super Matth. 16. What impudencie is this to denie that an Apostle had authoritie to excommunicate who could take life and sight away from an offender But see howe hee contrarieth himselfe For if this be not meant of excommunication why doe you afore bring it to proue that your Eldership is thereby authorized to excommunicate The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator Paul did excommunicate Hymenaeus and Alexander Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator That is he was but moderatour of the action or did pronounce it euen so Ambrose and the fathers did Nay Remonstrance with reply hee did it without consent of the Church of Ephesus for there was some more castigation vnderstoode and emplied in those words 1. Timoth. 1.20 v. I haue deliuered them to Sathan The argument doeth hold good S. Paul 1. Cor. 5. did it and seconded the action Ergo S. Paul was alone a doer in the action If without Scripture or reason a man may surmise and adde what hee list and when hee list then we may also aswell say that the whole senate of Rome consented with him in that action You finde no consent of Eldershippe or people in Ambroses action requested Either leaue falsifying and mangling or giue ouer demonstrating Conclusion IF the Demonstrator cannot neither as yet hath shewen by the light of nature clearenesse of reason report of historie allegation of Councell testimonie of fathers grounde of lawe euidence of Scripture nor euer shall be able to proue by necessarie demonstration any exacte platteforme for particularities of gouernment and externall Church policie that Christ hath prescribed any such foure Tetrarchies of speculatiue Doctor who must teach and not applie any such abstractiue Pastor who must exhort and not teache any such gouerning Elder who may neither exhort nor teache any such Deacon whose deaconshippe is distribution to the poore onely that is a meere corporall office and no attendance on the ministerie any such tumultuary election to bee perpetuated by the common people and their approbation of ministers election any such prophanitie of ordination and censuring by lay Elders any such Democracie in the Church or equalitie of all to be parishe Bishops any such indefatigable continuall residence of Pastors on the place without naturall or legall dispensation for absence vpon any occasion any such laicall or mixt Aldermanshippe or Eldershippe ouer all mens doctrine manners and matters in the Church any such censure of admonition suspension excommunication by a companie of Church Aldermen as in their owne right Then let the Demonstrator blush and be ashamed of so many fabulous narrations absurd collections out of text brutish reasons so many and so many falsifications of authorities childish paralogismes and anapodicticall or vndemonstrable demonstrations and let him bee touched in conscience and repent of all his slaunderous and calumnious speaches wherewith hee hath blasphemed this Church of Englande And in the name of God let our Church be gouerned still by rules of Gods worde by such canons of the Apostles and Councels and prouinciall constitutions and ordinances subordinate to the worde of God ratified by our most Christian and vertuous Prince Let vs thanke God for our gouernours Archbishops Bishops and superiour ministers and magistrates whose offices and equitie of the offices are in the worde and continued practise of the Church hitherto and let the inferiour ministers of what name or calling soeuer be gouerned by them as lawe prescribeth Let the examination be by the Ordinaries and Diocesans of men eligible and ordinable who knowe more then a thousand vnlearned Let the ordination be by the imposition of the Bishops and other pastorall Elders and ministers hand Let the execution of their offices be stil with diligence in preaching exhorting ministring of the Sacraments prouiding for the poore as God giueth abilitie Last of all let the exercise of the whole ecclesiasticall discipline be put in vse by worde of admonition or censure of suspension or excommunication where neede is by those able gouernours whom God the Prince Synode and Parliament haue put in trust withall and let vs holde on one and the same tenour of doctrine and discipline which maugre this wooden Demonstrator and T.C. Demost 1. Olynth that is tryfling curiositie we haue held 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 would all were well for euery mans sake Laus Deo Errata Fault Correction In the Preface pag. 3. line 24.  equinoction equiuocation P. 5. lin 12. dele ergo  P. 13. li. 6. demonstrate demonstration P. 20. li. 6. 20. two P. 25. li. 31. Syndicts Syndics P. 26. li. 20. any some one ibi li. 32. ordiancion ordination P. 27. li. 21. members numbers P. 33. li. 17. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 P. 37. li. 34. reuenge him reueage himselfe P. 49. li. 11. demises deuises Ibi. marg example epistle P. 53. li. 21. whole while P 72. li. 33. breede bredde P. 75. li. 6. is the is in the. P. 77. li. 16. lay ministring lay vnministring Ibi. li. 22.6.1 1. and 6. P. 81. li. 26. lowe lower Ibi. li. 38. columned continued P. 83. li. 32. runne not runne riot P. 87. li. 37. Irenaeus Grinaeus P. 109. li. 5. vnliable vnhable P. 110. li. 26. sence it sence as it P. 128. li. 33. by to P. 138. li. 18. Cicester Chichester P. 147. li. 11. preach practise P. 164. li. 34. posuerit poesis erit P. 166. li. 3.72 72. Euangelists P. 167. li. 14. Tragelapsus Tragelaphus P. 176. li. 28. were come were to come P. 177. li. 6. Papists Popish P. 108. li. 22. they they of the faction P. 201. li. 26. did had
he suffer vs to be lawlesse Ergo he hath giuen vs the vse of Christian libertie and the gifts of his spirit to his Church to be disciplined thereby in matters not contained in Scripture els it were no gift to gouerne if all were specificallie set downe Diuersities of graces one spirite diuersities of ministrations one lord diuersitie of operations one God The difference is in the maner of dispensatiō not in the things dispensed and yet one and the same Christ in no maner of prescript gouernance to be accused of caring more or of caring lesse for the gouernment of his Church vnder the Gospell or vnder the law The 8. Demonstration Demonstration He that was as faithfull as Moses left as cleare instruction for the gouernment of the Church but Christ was as faithfull ergo Heb. 3.2 To the Maior He that was as faithfull as Moses Remonstrance left as cleare instruction for doctrine of faith and maners nay he left clearer To the Prosyllogisme But Moses gaue direction for euery particular ergo Absurditie of the Demonstrator according to this your sence adde vnto this but Moses from the Cherubin to the lowest pinne in the tabernacle ergo Christ from the Communion table to the sweeping of the Church Moses left an heape of ceremonies Ergo Christ must bring in another heape of ceremonies Moses made Iudicials Ergo Christ newe Iudicials Moses ten commaundements of old Ergo Christ ten commandements of new Aaron had an Ephod or superhumerall and girdle ergo euery thing must be proportioned in Christ of whom Moses was a figure or in Christians their gouernment of whom Moses was neither type nor figure The better is not the shadow of the worse but the worse of the better The 9. Demonstration If the word of God hath described sufficient ministeries and ministers for the building ordering of the Church Demonstra Rom. 12.5 6 7. 1. Cor. 12.28 Eph 4.11 then is our assertion true But it hath set downe sufficient for doctrine exhortatiō ouerseeing distribution c. ergo This reasoning inferreth Fallaciam consequentis Remonstrance fallacie of the consequent viz. à non distributis ad distributa To the Antecedent Albeit the word hath set downe sufficient ministers and ministration yet is your assertion short of the trueth The Assumption bewraieth your fals dealing in the Antecedent Although the word setteth downe different sortes and diuersities of functions and duties yet our Axiome and rule is Euery particular gift and qualitie maketh not a new setled office in the Church of God Except you will haue a seuerall officer also to shew mercic Rom. 12. that so your selues need to shew none till you haue that office E diuersitate accidentiū non sequitur diuersitas subiectorum but è contrar subiectum est principium emanationis accidentium If the word c. then is your assertion true say you Omne verum vero consentaneum euery trueth is agrecable to a trueth but this is manifestly false and vtterly vntrue that the word hath set downe the liuclie image or imaginarie face of your Church-discipline the counterfeit whereof you haue or pretend to haue This togither with the former is vntrueth disagreeing in it selfe and iarring with the trueth Let your owne reason march vpon you thus Either in those places you haue found Absurditie of the Demonstrator or in no place else can be found the foure states of Doctors and pastors gouernors and Deacons in vse perpetuall but not in those places which is the issue that we ioyne and therefore to seeke in so many bookes that which you deeme to bee alreadie found is a fond matter and alreadie frustrate or to seeke that neuer can be found is an infinite matter and better vnsought then found Quicquid sine fine fit aut infinitum est aut frustra fit vnlesse you doe as Inachus the good man that sought his daughter transformed into a Cowe sed quam non inuenit vsquam Esse putat nusquam atque animo peiora veretur The 10. Demonstration That gouernment which the Apostles taught and planted Demonstration is expressed in the word But the Apostles taught and planted pastours and teachers for instruction Elders for ouerseeing Deacons for distributing Ergo a certaine forme is expressed in the word To the Maior Indefinita locutio restringenda est Remonstrance First the Maior is ambiguous that which the Apostles c. It is not expressed so precisely what all the Apostles taught and planted in the Church but the summe substance of it Secondarily the Maior is not conuersiue or reciprocall in euery parte and therefore no demonstratiue proposition viz. to say that which the Apostles taught is expressed in the word that which is expressed in the word the Apostles taught To the Minor Answer is neither by writing nor by practise did they euer establish an vniformitie of externall Church discipline that perpetually to hold An instance is of your Laie and vnpreaching elderships being temporarie and liuing not of the Church hauing imposition of hands and interest of ordinatiō and censures contrarie to all Scripture and practise of antiquitie Or Deaconship of women neuer to bee continued for Apostolicall constitution as your selues for the most part confesse Note the apparence of this maner of reasoning Retortion retireth vpon your selues That which the Apostles taught and planted all or that our Sauiour taught himselfe is impossible to be expressed in the word for the whole world cannot containe the bookes but the Apostles our Sauior conuerted many millions taught many doctrines in particularitie of conference the Apostles planted many churches in the dispersion ergo it is a matter of impossibilitie to expres it so largely in the word Or that which is necessary to saluation is expressed in the word That which is vnnecessarie is silenced in the word Puritans Idaea or fantasie is not necessarie to saluation for many millions of soules of Martyrs others haue bene saued without it Ergo it is not specifically expressed in the word The 11. Demonstration All lawfull action and office in the building of the Church Demonstration is from heauen but euery thing in the ordinarie building of the Church from heauen is reueiled in the word Ergo euery lawfull office action is reuealed in the word An eleuen men must lift a strawe in this 11. Demonstration Remonstrance needes you must confesse a flat Paralogisme in this This is faultie both in forme and matter or professe your selfe absurd The medius terminus is disposed secundum habitudinem nullius figurae in no order either of moode or figure By transposition of the partes which may neuer be allowed in a Demonstration or this faire Demonstrator meaneth to conclude by an affirmatiue in the second figure To the Minor Whereas the Minor saith euery thing from heauen with a decent Parenthesis to salue an inconuenience in the ordinarie building is
obserue Demonstration is set downe in the word But they are to teach obedience to the particular forme of gouernment Math. 28.20 Ergo the particular forme is set downe To the Maior The Maior is vndemonstrable not reciprocall most false Remonstrance The Ministers need not teach all that is set downe Which is the conuersiue of the Maior An instance is Instantia soluit argumentum Many things in Moses lawe as to abstaine from bloud are not of necessitie to be taught to bee obserued which neuerthelesse are distinctly set downe The error hereof resteth in the ambiguitie of this word set downe whether particularly or generally set downe be vnderstood Ministers are to teach obedience to the particular forme of gouernement and lawes ciuill of any lawfull common wealth Ergo all ciuill lawes are particularlie set downe in the Scripture To the Minor The Minor proceedeth of Supposall Ex suppositione sequitur quidlibet Supposing that gouernment of necessitie to bind vs they must necessarilie teach it vs Supposing that our Sauiour Iesus when he sayd 28. Math. 20. ver Absurditie of the Demonstrator Goe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Teach and make disciples baptizing and teaching them to obserue all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that I haue commaunded you c. did commaund their discipline It will easilie follow as if he did preposterously commaund a faithfull conuersation before conuersion to the faith or as if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 alludeth onely vnto discipline not respectiuelie looketh to the whole summe of Christianitie which the Apostles were to teach so they may dallie for their discipline with any place You know the old prouerbe Abegger is neuer out of his way Eckius to prooue transubstantiation alleageth Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie These men to turne doctrine into discipline all into gouernment euerie way is an high way euery coniecture is an inuincible demonstration to shewe and present vs with the face or maske of disguised discipline The 15. Demonstration Euery gouernment consisteth in the matter and maner Demonstration But in the word is described the particularitie of both as in the 9. Demonstration Ergo the word hath prescribed a prescript gouernment Here is a conclusion in 2. figura affirmatiuè Remonstrance and by a leape from described to prescribed quatuor termini To the Maior Things coincident are considerable together All gouernment consisteth not in the matter and maner onely but in the efficient and finall causes also As God the author and beginning in Christ and the glory of God which is the scope or latter end To the Minor The Minor is very false but to retort it If both matter and manner be described then what neede your variable Synodicall discipline or any moe orders at all as the Barrowists contend and you would seeme to oppugne The 16. Demonstration Cyprian saith Demonstration Sermone de baptismo Christi From Scripture rules of all doctrine haue sprung and hither doth returne whatsoeuer the Ecclesiasticall discipline doeth conteine The wordes of Cyprian are Remonstrance De bapt Christi manifest Trinit Legat hoc verbum in hoc mandato meditetur Christiana religio inueniet omnium doctrinarum regulas ex hac Scriptura emanasse hinc nasci huc reuerti quicquid Ecclesiastica continet disciplina in omnibus irritum esse friuolum quicquid dilectio non confirmat Cyprian speaketh of loue and charitie he treateth not there of an Ecclesiasticall pollicie but thereby meaneth onely the doctrine of the Church which is recapitulated in loue which chapter being very briefe of one word I would our Discipliners had once read ouer Cyprian right well did skill of Christian discipline viz. a rule of doctrine which is another manner thing then this fansied discipline of Church-frame which you pretend to haue being a salte discipline not the salte of discipline which Cyprian woulde haue Te docente ad siccandas corruptionum mearum putredines prodesse cauterium Sermone de bapt Christi mundare cicatrices veteres salem disciplinae tuae Euangelio tuo medente infusum God being the Doctor or heauenly doctrine is of as great auaile as a burning yron to seare vp the rottennes of putrified flesh the salte of discipline sprinkled vpon vs out of the diuine Gospell doeth mundifie olde sores and purge and heale them cleane In both which places you see that which he first called doctrine he after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 calleth discipline Therefore this salte of discipline might very well serue to mundifie and heale the wound of charity which you haue made Luculentam plagam declarat cicatrix 2. Philip. the scarre whereof in the forehead of our Church doeth manifestly appeare But I perceaue the Demonstrator for all his bragge is but a sorie reader of Cyprian or had his allegation gathered to his hand and neuer had the leasure to reade ouer Cyprian The 17. Demonstration We may not giue our selues the libertie to bring in any thing that other men bring of their will Demonstration we haue the Apostles for authors who themselues brought nothing of their owne will But the discipline which they receaued of Christ Tertul. de praescript adu haere they deliuered faithfully to the people I take your meaning Remonstrance and not your wordes Your quotation is of Cyprian but your meaning of Tertullian who hath such like wordes Nobis ex arbitrio nostro indulgere nihil licet speaking against the doctrine of men and deuils vt aeones formas nescio quas trinitatem hominis apud Valentinum as the Commentator vpon Tertullian doeth obserue Tertullian directeth those wordes against Marcion and Apelles and others Tertullian saith we may not giue our selues libertie neither abridge others of their Christian libertie Tertullian is not contrary to Tertullian else where he requireth consanguinitatem doctrinae consanguinitie of doctrine from Christ and his Apostles downeward so that it is plaine to him that weieth the place he meant of doctrine If he had meant it of the pollicie and outward gouernment of the Church it maketh not against ours which for the substance of it we are readie to auerre to be grounded of the worde and taught by the Apostles and reteined euer since in the Church theirs being neuer heard of till about 50. yeeres agoe it was set vp in one towne being a popular state The 18. Demonstration It is adulterous Demonstration it is sacrilegious whatsoeuer is ordeined by humane furie that the diuine disposition should be violated Cyprian speaketh of Heretikes Remonstrance and of Schismatikes who departed from the Church as our Puritanes doe from the vnitie of the godlie proceedings established in the Church against Foelicianus and the fiue Priestes Nunc apparet Foeliciani factio vnde est quibus viribus quibus radicibus staret hij fomenta quibusdam confessoribus hortamenta tribuebant ne concordarent cum
Christ for externall policie of the Church and to bee constituted for mere humaine policie Vide Sarau lib. 1. de diuersis grad minist This conclusion therefore driueth the dust and winde of their folly into their owne eyes God and christian policie ordeyneth all ministers Ergo all ministers haue the same efficient Or God and christian policie ordeyneth all ministers God and christian policy are not diuerse efficients as this diuerse man doeth dreame but subordinate for all christian policy is the good gift of God and therefore no efficient absolute of it selfe but effected by God The 2. Demonstration A diuerse forme maketh diuerse things Demonstration ministers of the word and the LL. BB. haue diuerse formes as their ordinacion sith one L.B. may ordeine a minister but there must be three to ordeine one of them Ergo To the Maior Whether you meane accidentall forme or substanciall Remonstrance it is not euer true viz. diuerse formes make diuers things you know the olde sayde saw Ouorum inter se similitudo Nothing so like as an egge to an egge Nothing so like as Hypocrates two twinnes which in specie were not different things yet the one was not the other Againe diuerse formes are in any thing as Trigonus in Tetragono the one included in the other or where the one is ordeyned for the complement and perfection of the other 2. physic Homo prius viuit vitam plantae deinde bruti postremò hominis To the Minor The ministers and the LL. BB. haue one essentiall forme in their ordinacion to the ministerie as in giuing them the ministeriall charge of the word the administration of the sacraments which is his commission for the ministery The forme is all one the consecration of a B. which is a commission for superiour authoritie in ordinacions and iurisdictions with the censures or whatsoeuer else is annexed thereunto is neuer a deale the more for the presence of three any newe or straunge ordiancion of a ministery For accidens non mutat speciem subiecti yet is it such as if we read al the old fathers counsels and other antiquitie who were like to know best in what sort the apostles planted established churches ye shal neuer find aboue one B. required at the ordination of any presbyter a priest or minister but 2. BB. at least and the Metropolitane at the consecration of a B. according to which number our booke of ordination in that behalfe was framed it may be gathered from the like ordination of Paul and Barnabas in the thirteenth of the Acts the one of which was an apostle the other vir apostolicus before from which example I reason thus Either this new ordination of Paul by the prophets and doctors of Antioch gaue him a new and diuerse ministerie from his former so that he continued not an Apostle still or else by this accession no such alteration is made But he continued an apostle still ergo by this accession of ordination or function no such diuersitie was made And consequently an accession of function or authoritie vnto our BB. by their consecration maketh them not cease to be ministers of the worde still which is contradictorie to their maior and therefore that vntrue But to pommell them about the pates with their owne swordes thus againe I may reason A diuerse forme maketh diuerse things Ministers and Elders in a church not yet established must bee chosen and ordeyned by the whole church but in a church established by the presbitery alone as their owne platformers describe which two bee diuers formes and diuerse members of ordeiners ergo they who be chosen and ordeyned after the first manner haue a diuerse ministery and eldershippe from such as be of the latter making and consequently the first being of another kinde cannot choose or ordeine any of the second sort and so shall their newe discipline be nipped in the head and stand after possibilitie of issue extinct Or thus A diuerse forme maketh diuerse things All our new discipliners sauing the church of Scotland which thinketh it a needelesse abrogated ceremony in ordination of elders doe necessarily require and vse imposition of hands ergo the ministers of Scotland haue a seuerall function and ministery from all reformed churches besides Or reason for your selues and reason thus Mixt formes put together make either no thing quia species cum specie non copulatur c. or a mingle mangle Retortion of their argument erratum naturae a monstruous thing The newe manner and guise of ordination by combining laitie and clergie is not actus purus but a compound and mixt forme ergo such ordination by the imposing of handes of laitie and clergie maketh their ministerie either a nullitie or a monstruous thing The 3. Demonstration Members of one diuision are distinct one from another Demonstration The L.BB. and ordinarie ministers are members of one diuision for the ministers are diuided into the Rulers and ruled Ergo To the Maior The axiome is Remonstrance Membra vnius diuisionis contra distinguuntur de se inuicem non predicantur are not verifiable one of another As a man is not an horse prudence is not fortitude fortitude is not prudence howbeit they are concident in vno subiecto as temperance and prudence in one Scipio Secondarily conueniunt in aliquo superiori meete and concurre in one generall or vniuersall a man and beast in one liuing creature This is T.C. ouersight See the defense of the answere to the admonition 203. pa. To the Minor The Minor we distinguish The Ministers are not oppositiuely distinguished but relatiuely Or the diuision is of the common of more into the common of the lesse They are not of diuers predicaments The argument to be framed is thus Euery B. is not an inferiour minister ergo euery inferiour minister is not a B. in or out of his parish viz. a parish B. which these men craue The fallacie is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Absurditie of the Demonstrator It is absurd to argue thus The BB. and other inferiour ministers are according to superioritie and inferiority of order distinct ergo altogether and in euery respect distinct Or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the worde that importeth ministers aswel as deacons or ministers are diuided into BB. and priests ergo BB. are not priests Or thus Their officers ecclesiasticall are diuided into pastores doctores presbyteros et diaconos ergo Pastores non sunt presbyteri et per consequens non sunt de presbyterio Pastours are none Elders and therefore are not of the Eldership The 4. Demonstration The thing that haue diuerse effects are diuers in themselues one from another Demonstration The LL.BB. and other ministers haue diuerse effects The one effecteth gouernment the other subiection Ergo To the Maior What a confident Demonstration call you this An 100. Remonstrance Instances to one thing Eaedem causae sunt interimentes quae efficientes
Demonstration The office which is needlesse in the Church is vnlawfull Demonstration The Archbishops office is needlesse because the ministerie is perfect without it Eph. 4.11 Ergo. Eph. 4.11 To the Maior This demonstration is rather follie then fallacie Remonstrance the Medium or proofe there is needlesse In deed lesse need of this then of that before Bare neede maketh you demonstrate after this sort your argument is but mistaken It is not à non necessario sed ab independente My answer therefore is Not euery thing seeming needlesse in humane preiudice is foorth with vnlawfull in Gods diuine iudgement To the Minor This is a most lewd affirmation in the Minor that the Archbishops office is needlesse because the ministerie is perfect without it The Demonstrator is as bold as any man and as blind as whosoeuer but boldnesse and blindnesse are the two helpes As for the reason that the ministerie is perfect without it it is an vnperfect reason For as iustly may he say the office of a Christian King is needlesse in the church because the ministerie is perfect without it This is a doubtfull clause to leaue the ministerie in speculation not in action or to consider of the being of the ministerie not of the well being of the same Let this one word serue for your answer if you will be answered The perfectnesse of the ministerie doeth not ouerturne the needfulnesse of gouernement or direction by the Archbishop I dare auouch hee knoweth not wherein an Archbishops office here consisteth That which is needlesse is vnlawfull c. Retortion of the argument The office of Church-Aldermen ouer all men and all maners is needelesse in our Church where a Christian magistracie is established alreadie and because no place of Scripture affirmeth for it Ergo it is vnlawfull in the Church and none but T.C. idest thanklesse curiositie would bring it in place Or this That which is needlesse is vnlawfull All courtes of Record as Chancerie and Common pleass c. shall be found needlesse if the Consistorie of Presbyters and Elders were set vp which is onely needfull or else full of neede in the Church or congregation of the faithfull brethren because they may determine all matters wherein any breach of charitie may be as the Admonitioner saieth Ergo all Courts of Record as Chancerie Common pleas c. by their reason will be found all vnlawfull Thus then we reason out of their owne grounds What office soeuer is needlesse idest is not necessarilie required in the Church the same is vnlawfull The Christian princes supreme gouernment in causes ecclesiasticall if wee beleeue these men is needlesse for the learned discourser who saieth the Church was most flourishing when there was no Christian magistrate T.C. saith no lesse who findeth no difference betweene an heathen and a Christian king touching the matter of intermedling in church gouernment iumping therein with Harding and other papists Ergo by this assertion the princes supreme gouernment is vnlawfull which vnsound and rebellious conclusion very necessarily followeth not only of this assertion but of infinite other their speeches Or thus The office which is needlesse is vnlawfull The hauing of an Eldership in euery congregation is needles for one Eldership in the towne serueth for the whole country belonging to Geneua where neuerthelesse they haue diuers Churches and their seuerall ministers And so in Scotland where there be but few Elderships in comparison of the seuerall congregations yet these Churches were reformed will you say Likewise the hauing of a Doctor in euery congregation and Deacons to be of the Eldership is an office needlesse for they haue them not so in France or Scotland though most of our platformers require both Ergo the hauing of an Eldership or of Doctor or Deacons to be of the Eldership in euery congregation are offices vnlawfull By which examples also appeareth the falshood of the Minor because the ministerie is perfect without those in such places and yet the Demonstrationer will not affirme the Eldership Doctor and Deacon to be needlesse The 4. Demonstration If all giftes for perfecting of the Church needfull be appropriated vnto other ministers Demonstration then is his ministerie vnlawfull But all are appropriated to those foure Ephesians 4. Pastor Doctor Elder and Deacon whereof hee is none Ergo. This Hypotheticall Syllogisme is as bad a Paralogisme as T.C. his simple Syllogisme refuted at large in the defence of the answer to the Admonition Remonstrance pag. 316. I may well call it T.C. his whirlepoole because he drowneth himselfe and his scholers in it Thus Those functions onely are sufficient for the Church which haue all gifts needfull c. But all those functions reckoned of Paul Ephe. 4. 1. Cor. 12 haue the gifts needfull ergo those functions onely are sufficient for the Church As if a man did argue thus Those things onely are sufficient to saluation which are contained in the Scripture Absurditie of T.C. and of the Demonstrator But all things in the Aue Maria are contained in the Scripture ergo those things in the Aue Maria are onely sufficient to saluation Or as cunningly after this sort Those only are men which are endued with reason But all the Costerdmongers of London are endued with reason ergo the Costerdmongers of London are the onely men Where the Maior is particular the argumentation of sole particulars and hath no force of reason the Medium or argument hath this word Onely in the Maior cum subiecto and is left out in the Minor Besides all this it concludeth affirmatiuè in the second figure against the lawe of due conclusion finally it lacketh both moode and figure and lacketh no fault To the sequele of the Antecedent The sequele is vntrue for dealing with the Church stocke thēselues say it was appropriate Act. 6. to 7. Deacons yet Act. 11. the collection was sent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for the administration not to such as we call commonly and peculiarly Deacons but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the priests or ministers yet this not vnlawful in them To the Assumption Both sides backe and bellie turne which side you will hereof is a shamelesse vntrueth for God hath not appropriated the gifts to those 4. nor to any other 4. or 5. titles and names of offices in Church but he doeth tie and vntie conferre and bestow the gift on such an office which is fit for the commoditie of the Church in what measure he pleaseth Elders and Deacons are not once mentioned in that text therfore thus I reason If all giftes needfull for perfecting of the Church be appropriated vnto the Ministers mentioned Ephes 4. then the ministerie of Elders and Deacons is vnlawfull much lesse is it needfull for perfecting of the Church But by the Demonstrator and his customers of whom he boroweth all needfull gifts are appropriate to Apostles Euangelists Prophets nowe wholie ceased as they saye and
as they chuse their Presidents And we do not hold Caluin or any humane authoritie affirmatiue and therefore we rather defend it was for order Superioritie both of dignitie office Eusebius whom Caluin citeth to this purpose maketh Iames the sonne of Alpheus Byshop of Ierusalem and Byshop of the Apostles because the Synode of the twelue Disciples and 72. Euangelists continued from Christ his ascencion to the dispersion of the Apostles It must needes be amongst the Apostles and other Pastorall Elders not onely a gouernment for continuance of order but also preeminence in the action Act. 15.19 For there the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I iudge or determine is vsed whereupon after much disputation all rested and the matter was concluded for it is no preiudice to the equalitie of the Apostleship or ministerie a modest orderly and temperate authoritie This is worth the whole It was of order say they not of Superioritie as the speaker in Parliament as if all Superioritie were opposite to good order but as neere as they can they will borrow from the high Court of Parliament Belike they meane one day to keepe a Court of it Retortion The Speaker doeth not gather the voyces neither hath voice but when all the house is euen The L. Chanceller in the vpper house asketh the Clarke gathereth but the L. Chanceller remaineth the propounder so long as he is Chanceller And this their temporarie Presidencie is for order say they nay it is for disorder ordo est rationis Aristotle in his physicks To choose one this day another to morow and the third day choose a neewe is a tumultuous order Note this by the way Their gouernour or president of order in euery meeting is to propound matters to gather voyces viua voce or by scrutinie Ergo some authoritie is left vnto him for he is to propounde Ergo it is in his choyse to gather or scatter to silence or propound Ethicorum 3. eadem quae agere possumus non agere which is as much in valewe as a Warden amongst his schollers with a negatiue voyce which is a great preeminence and Superioritie The 6. Obiection Paul was Superiour to Timothie and Titus Demonstrator The Answere Paul and they had diuerse offices Paul an Apostle and they Euangelists ouer others Let him shewe me a reason Remonstrance with reply An Apostle being Superiour to an Euangelist and he to a Pastor c. why a Byshop may not be Superiour to a Pastor succeeding the Apostles for if vos autem non sic doe take away all Superioritie then an Apostle and euery Pastor is euery way equal a Pastor but equal with their lay Elder and Deacon As for Paul Doctor Gentium a Doctor of the Gentiles he was their Superiour this is beyond all question As for Titus and Timothie if as you say they were Superiors as Euangelists Ergo euery way Superior for Ecclesiasticall order ouer ordinarie Ministers It is an Absurditie to say Absurditie of the Demonstrator hee was Superior as an Euangelist Ergo not Superior as a Byshop sith hee that desireth a Byshopricke praeclarum opus desiderat desireth a good worke Paul sayth that Timothie worketh the worke of the Lord euen as he 1. Cor. 16. But hence followeth not that he was an Apostle euen as Paul was no more then hereof that hee was an Euangelist Or as well to make the holy Ghost say Episcopatum eius accipiat alter Let another take the Byshopricke of Iudas but let no man take the Apostleship of Iudas The fallacie of this is the caption adidem Our positiue learning is better then your negatiue learning they were Euangelists in some maner signification as Preachers but no such Euangelists as a seuerall office Ephes 4. as you imagine of them for by their owne authoritie they did not plant Churches but by commission and teaching of Saint Paul The one Timothie being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Prelate of the Ephesians 1. Thes 5.12 1. Tim. 3.14 Ephesus Metropoliticall citie of Asia where after his abode which Saint Paul requested of him for to stay no where you can finde Saint Paul afterward to sende for him especially from the date of writing the Epistle The other Titus being Archbyshop of Crete whether in that time or after times Crete were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Homer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iliad reporteth hauing three or an hundreth cities be it for ordeining or gouerning the one the other had Superioritie of all the Pastors there Iustin Martir one of the next writers to the Apostles calleth Timothie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernour or Prelate of the Church of Ephesus which he could not call him if hee had bin chosen for one onely meeting or action This worde in Plato 7. Epist. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Prefect of a city therefore al his Superioritie was not so much of order as of greatnes in authoritie and the Church from time to time hath admitted the title of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordeined by imposition of hands first or chiefe Byshop not so much for time as dignitie for he had to denounce and commaund 1. Tim. 1.4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is with power denounce and commaunde with many other wordes in that Epistle importing his Iudiciall authoritie and Superiour dignitie The 3. Proposition of the Demonstrator None may be ordeined to an office in the Church vntill the place be voyde Demonstrator The 1. Demonstration As was the twelfth place for Matthias so is a certaine place for euery Church officer But Matthias was not ordeined to the place til Iudas had made it voyde by hanging himselfe Ergo none is to bee ordeined before the place bee voyde Adde vnto this conclusion which you ought to do Remonstrance by hanging himselfe or by lot Or when an Apostleship falleth or when euery twelfth place is voyde by such maner of Resignation Absurditie of the Demonstrator as hanging himselfe or when Matthias commeth againe to bee chosen in Iudas place This Argument leapeth from one praedicament to another from the praedicament agere to vbi He ordeined him to an office Ergo to a place and a certaine place as if the Apostles were not to preach 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in all the world The Maior proposition is false For Christ appointed the number of twelue such as had bin conuersant with him so that there might of the Apostles be no lesse or more albeit he had 72. Disciples besides that had bin instructed by him which were Euāgelists but there is no set number of ordinarie Ministers prescribed to any nation which it may not come short of nor exceede In one Church of Antioche Ast. 13. was there not sundry both Prophets and Doctors there named yet no stinted number for it is there noted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as happely the Church then stood and it stoode very flourishing
fittest for one It is in very deede the best referencie for one thing secundùm idem cannot haue sundrie relation The 5. Demonstration To doe contrary to the precept and practise of the apostles is vnlawfull Demonstration To ordeine an officer without a certaine place is contrary Ergo vnlawfull Titus 1.5 acts 14.23 To the Maior To do contrary to the precepts and practise of the apostles is not euer vnlawfull as Act. 15.29 Remonstrance v. is commanded Absteyne from blood and strangled yet it is now lawfull to eate bloud or strangled therfore this vniuersall maior is false To the Minor To ordeine an officer without a place or to ordeine many officers in readines to doe office and seruice to the whole church is not contrary to the practise or commaundement of the apostles in any of those places but rather iustifiable out of the place Act. 14.23 Paul and Barnabas returned to Lystra and Iconium and Antioche 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is ordeyned vnto them or for them pastoral elders in euery church and commended them to the Lord in whome they had beleeued They ordeyned pastoral elders in euery church or in the church howe followeth it hereof that they did not or might not ordeine some ouer and aboue for the prouision of the whole church likewise out of the place Tit. 1.5 v. It is an impossible collection Absurditie of the Demonstrator for this were handsome reasoning I haue left thee to make pastorall elders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in euery citie Ergo make no elders nor ministers for the countrey or I haue left thee to make elders for euery citie Ergo make iust no more elders then there be cities Sometimes these fellowes would gather by the plurall number their laie elders from hence They holde it pollicie of their church to make more Bishops then one Rotortion where the maintenance will stretch for one towne or citie and why may not our vniuersities and cathedrall churches being colledges of the prophets keepe within them as they do and foster with their maintenance many ministers and pastorall elders to furnish towne and countrey The 6. allegation of the Demonstrator Demonst. Conc. Chalced. Can. 6. Artic. 15 It was ordained that neither deacon nor elder nor other should be ordained 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is loosely but in a church citie or towne The wordes are Neminem absolutè Remonstrance id est sine titulo the exception is nisi in ecclesia suae ciuitatis siue possessionis aut in martyrio aut in monasterio There are exceptions ynough to authorise any ordination in our church sith many are ordained for our colledges and cathedrall churches c. Great ods betweene absolutè et dissolutè which is to be let runne at randome Demonstration Conc. Vrban Test Gra. c. tuum distinct 70. as most of you are persons of no church and vicars of the same The 7. allegation of the Demonstrator The ordination that is made without a title let it be voyd This is maruaile you will borrow out of Gratian or out of the Canon lawe Remonstrance drawe cleare demonstration from puddle water vnto which you often compare the Canon lawe I perceiue euery place you can make must serue your turnes yea puddle wharfe Your answere was before with the exceptions afore remembred Besides a title is not alwaies a charge or flocke but an assignation of set maintenance least they should begge cum dedecore clericalis ordinis as the Canons speake The 8. allegation of the Demonstrator Hieronymus ad Nepotianum complained that ministers were ordeined being chosen by no church Demonstration and so went here and there hauing no place There is no such matter to be found in S. Hierom as is here alledged Remonstrance but if Hierom had complained belike hee did not complaine without a lawful cause It is pitie and shame they should wander vp and downe but this would haue argued that absolute ordinations were then vsed yet wee graunt the Canons sauing in some cases doe forbidde them as inconuenient and so this church practiseth if the lawes be followed if not the men are blameable not the lawes The 9. Allegation of the Demonstrator That action which is read to be practised neuer but by Idolaters is vnlawfull Demonstrator To haue wandring officers is so Iudg. 17.8 Ergo vnlawfull This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fight with a shadowe Remonstrance or to wander from the purpose More is in the conclusion of the Syllogisme then in the premisses The question was of allotting Ministers to a place the conclusion is of a wandring apostacie or forsaking his ordination and his place If there be any like Micah for entertaining such or like the wandring Leuite that did goe from Bethlehem Iuda from the better to the worse and goe to dwell as it is in that text where he may finde a place your selues are such hostes and such guestes rather then we For many amongst you are wandring starres and wayfaring mates a life chosen by your selues not imposed The Obiection of the Demonstrator Paul and Barnabas did wander Ergo. Demonstrator Answere The Apostles office and the Euangelistes was to preach the worde and to plant Churches But the order that they left is a president for vs that euery Church should haue their proper officers and that there be no other else where to be founde Bray a foole in a morter hee will not leaue his folly Remonstrance with replie no more will this man his bable nor babbling obiections Paul and Barnabas did not wander as in our behalfe you would seeme to obiect but for the watring and planting of the Churches passed to and fro as any may doe that haue care of many Congregations to visite them or as Saint Paul who confessed solus ego I onely haue care of all Congregations this is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or incoherent or a president neuer to be found Euery Church must haue proper officers Ergo there are no other nor ought to be els where any other found Once againe howe prooue those men a negatiue This is to stoppe the encrease of Gods diuine grace This is fine in conceite Your gouerning Elders must be numerus infininitus or indefinitus Ergo Absurditie of the Demonstrator our Pastorall Elders must be numerus finitus a certaine number Why not sans number of those who to Godward are professed The third Chapter The Assertion of the Demonstrator EVery Church officer ought to execute his office Demonstrator and be continually resident on his charge The Demonstrator is too too peremptorie Remonstrance because he comprehendeth neither natural nor legal nor other dispensation by the worde continually But let vs heare the Demonstration The 1. Demonstration A Shepheard hath a flocke continually to feede it The Minister is a Shepheard and his charge a flocke Demonstration Ergo hee ought continually to feede it
is vnlawfull But the congregation hath neede of vs Ergo vnlawfull Syllogizari non est exparticulari Remonstrance To be absent from one man or one particular congregation is not vnlawfull his employment being otherwise beneficiall I might reason as well thus Absurdity of the demonstrator To be absent from those who haue neede of vs is vnlawfull The church of Ephesus had neede of Timothie the church of Galathians and Corinthians neede of Paul Ergo Pauls and Timothies absence were both vnlawfull Or after this wise To be absent from those that haue neede of vs is vnlawfull The Paynims and heathen in America terra australi where no church is haue neede of vs Ergo our absence is vtterly vnlawfull This fallacion is secundum quid ad simpliciter The 15. Demonstration Demonstration If the priests might not dwell farre from the temple then the ministers may not be non Resident But the first is true 1. Chron. 28. ca. 13. v. ergo the second I may argue as substantially and as well Remonstrance If the Exchequer men must of conueniencie dwell neere to Westminster hall and the singing men of Paules neere there abouts ergo they must neuer goe out of the place The place which you alledge is Dauid gaue to Salomon a paterne of the courts of the house of God and for all the chambers round about which serue for the treasures of the house of God and for the treasures of the dedicate things and for the courses of the Priestes and Leuites Now the later may expound the former ergo the Priestes and Leuites waited in their courses It proueth not an indefatigable or continuall howrely attendance You deale hardly to make them de genere affixorum or to naile them to a place The 16. Demonstration or Allegation Let no Clerke be placed in two charges for it is filthie merchandize Demonstra Concil Nic. c. 15. c. No man can serue two Maisters Let euery one tarrie in the place where he is called The olde prouerbe is now verefied 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance Like egge like birde like master like man T.C. the maister misalledged the Councell and so doeth V. D. his yeoman See the 247. pag. of the Defense of the answere to the Admonition These men to euict their purpose will not refuse omne genus testium etiam ab inferis viz. the most blasphemous corrupt and depraued the 2. Councell of Nice which to bleare mens eies withall they call simply the Councell of Nice Out of this Councell they may proue adoration of reliques inuocation of Saintes worshipping of images with the same worship that the Trinitie is worshipped if they wil take farder serious counsel in the cause I may say of them as Seneca said of a wanton Poet Non ignorauit sed amauit sua vitia they cannot be ignorant but they loue their owne faults and errors Let no man c. in the ende of the canon in Regia ciuitate be placed in moe great cities then one In other towneships and villages it is lawful and so Gratian expoundeth Caus 20. quaest 1. Clericus and the Councell of Chalcedon and the glose A man may be intituled to two Churches if they be poore and with dispensation or by way of trust or Commendam As for allegation 6. Matth. No man can serue two maisters that is contrarie Masters God and Beliall God and Mammon For the other place 1. Cor. 7. Let a man tary in his vocation that is his kinde of vocation not in the locall place These fallacies are fallacies figurae dictionis This therefore must be the meaning of the place Let no man c. without abilitie to discharge them both be placed in two charges or let no man make a filthie lucre of his charge The 17. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstration Damasus compareth them that set ouer their charges to harlots that put out their children Concil com 2. c. to nurse to giue themselues to more pleasure This man heard T. C. say it was in the second Tome of Councels Remonstrance which is in the first See what it is to take euery thing by heare-say Damasus in his epistle speaketh against Chorepiscopi which occupied the place of their bishoprikes some part of their office as consecration of Priestes Deacons and Virgines imposition of handes dedication of Churches who were both insolent themselues and made others their bishops liue in pleasure and idlenes This concerneth nothing honest learned and sufficient Curates If you thinke your owne wife or any other onely for putting out their children within the compasse of an harlot you are within the compasse of a iealous headed foole It were more reasonable to iudge her so if she were with childe before you maried her The 18. Allegation or Demonstration It was ordeined that none Demonstra either Bishop or Elders should goe from Citie to Citie Theodor. l. 1. c. 9. The place is in the Ecclesiasticall historie of Theodoret Remonstrance albeit you quote it not Theodoret speaketh of Eusebius Nicomediensis an Arrian who leauing Nicomedia Ad sedem Constantinopolitani Episcopatus per ambitum arrepsit idque contra Ecclesiae canonem qui vetat tum Episcopos tum Presbyteros de vnius ciuitatis sede ad alterius sedem transferre who translated himselfe by sute and ambition from one Church to another for as it is in the same Theodoret Cùm ei Beryensis Ecclesiae administratio concredita esset inde ad Nicomediae Episcopatum gerendum se transtulit where he was Gouernour of the Church of Beria he translated him selfe to Nicomedia and from the bishoprike thereof to Constantinople leaping from Church to Church by sute after the promotion and contrarie to the Canon of the Church which forbiddeth ambition and sute both vnto Priestes and Bishops and translation from one See to another of their owne heades without a cause allowed by their Superiors according to the seuerall orders of euery Church The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator Two parishes may be vnited ergo one may haue charge of them Demonstrator when they are two or diuided Answere of the Demonstrator One sheepheard may keepe one flocke being great but not two flockes being litle going in diuerse pastures That is falsly answered Remonstrance with replie for Iacob in the 30. Genes kept Labans and his owne flocke of sheepe and put them in diuerse pastures As for the obiection when they are diuided his paines are the greater he must repaire to them but in the vnion whatsoeuer is the distance they must repaire to him except it be otherwise especially prouided The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Parishes were diuided by men by the Monke Denys Pope of Rome Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator That is vntrue for the Apostles in the Actes diuided the Churches into Congregations Nay that is more vntrue This is as the Schoolemen speake 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
that preheminence in regard of their cost bestowed call other ministers in partem sollicitudinis into a part of the charge and by institution of them vnto seuerall churches and the reuenues thereof did as it were inuest them to the title of that part of Glebe tithes c. which was accounted as his own afore but vnto the said vses which course now hath continued many hundred yeeres downe vnto these times It resteth to consider what the Demonstrator can prooue therein to be impious and to be returned againe to Antichrist as proceeding from him being Antichristian The 1. Demonstration The constant practise of the Apostles Church must be folowed 1. Tim. 6.14 Demonstration The constant practise of the Church was to chuse her officers Ergo It belongeth to the Church to chuse her officers Act. 1.6 Act. 6.5 Act. 14 25. Here be quatuor termini for in stead of must be followed is put belongeth to the Church which is the conclusion Remonstrance but is in neither of the premisses and besides the Maior speaketh of the Church which is the Apostles and therefore a Paralogisme Besides it is vntrue for their constant practise was to abstaine from blood and strangled to celebrate the supper at night to prophecie in course so many as thought good not to weare any thing at all on their heads at praier and to speake strange languages in the congregation 1. Cor. 14. which need not be followed of vs. To the Minor I denie the constant practise of the Apostles to haue bene or to be prooued out of those places in the Acts. Mathias was immediately chosen by God vnto the Apostleship by casting lots ergo by no free election of the people The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they did propound or nominate is not necessarilie to be referred to all then assembled viz. 120. but rather to the 11. Apostles there particularly reckoned and named Otherwise we should say that the apostles wiues and Mary the mother of Iesus had an interest also in this nomination and propounding which our discipliners will not in their owne platforme admit but whosoeuer propounded those two men sure it is they which propounded them did not elect them for they were referred to Gods owne election by lot Shew which of them thou hast chosen If this example must alwaies be followed then the Church shall onely and alwaies haue the nomination of two to bee chosen but shall haue none election which neuerthelesse is the thing shot at Thē also shall there need no fasting nor any ordination by imposition of hands for neither of these was here vsed If they say somthing herein was ordinarie something extraordinarie why do they then by this place vrge a constant practise of the church and let them prooue also by scripture how much is ordinarie how much extraordinarie not to be pursued by vs. But let vs see also what constant practise agreeing with the other two places or with your own vsage you can find in the election of the 7. chosen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that were to serue table Acts. 6 They were such as the Lord gaue none expresse cōmandement to be ordained but grew by a collateral occasiō viz. the grudge of the Greekes against the Hebrewes and the toile which the Apostles through the nūber of beleeuers were drawen into ministring alone to all the holy supper at their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Loue-feasts They were but 7. chosen for the Church at Ierusalem vpon that special occasion to serue tables at the Loue-feasts The course of circūstances in which feasts is ceased therfore this choise is an vnfit rule to exact all elections of church officers vnto Because these seuen called commonly Deacons were chosen must ministers of the word needs iumpe iust with them Must all officers needs haue all circumstances in their elections alike What Logike is this thus to reason à disparatis adidem The 12. Apostles in this action called the disciples together propounded perswaded the matter told them the number qualities of those men to be chosen but for auoiding suspition of partialitie appeasing the mutinie permitted the whole electiō to the number of the disciples And shal we therfore in all elections giue to the wisest learnedst BB. and other ministers of the Church no further direction sway or interest but permit all elections the maner of thē to the rest of the Church why this our platformers themselues will not like For their presbyteries haue the entire nomination and election of all and the people must allow of their choise if a cause sufficient bee notalleaged though all els were against it Of the sufficiencie of which cause the eldership themselues be iudges sauing that the latest platformes for choise of a minister wil haue some other minister neere to lay on handes with the laie elders least also they should seeme to giue that functiō which none of thēselues haue In this action 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euen all the whole multitude was called and vsed in election but women children and youths the discipliners themselues will exclude from giuing voices When the multitude had chosen thē they presented thēto the Apostles but our elderships wil first haue both nominatiō election and thē they wil present the elected to the people Here neither the Apostles nor the multitude are said to haue fasted and therfore not to be presumed where the holy ghost in wisedome hath omitted to mention it as themselues reason when it serueth their turnes But the examples Acts 13.14 not touched by the Demonstrator do mention fasting the platformers do necessarily require it in all ecclesiastical elections The apostles after praier made without further inquisition or examination into the persons do only lay hands vpon thē the ministerie of the word sacraments being included in their apostleship But our platformers I hope will not refuse hereupon all examination of those who first are elected by the multitude and yet being meere lay elders wil presume to impose hands not onely vpon Deacons but also vpon ministers of the word function offices which themselues haue not this they do where their discipline is alredie planted but where it is to be planted there I thinke as the people shall chuse so shall they also ordaine impose hands vpon the ministers then they vpō the elders the ministers elders both vpō the Deacons after which time the people for euer shall giue vp this office Here by the way we note that this notable Apostolicall Church established at Ierusalem was without any lay ministring Eldership which might impose hands and ordaine Deacons which they would not so long haue lacked if Christ by dic ecclesiae had so long afore appointed and commaunded it by which foundation laid thus I retort The constant practise of the Apostles church must be folowed In the election of church officers Act. 6.1 appeareth no
constāt practise of the Apostles church ergo In those elections appeareth nothing that must be folowed And againe of the contrary thus That which differeth from the practise of the apostles church must not be folowed The platformers elections as in sundry points is shewed here differeth from the practise of the Apostles Church Ergo the platformers elections must not be folowed Now for the 14. Act. 25. v. Paul Barnabas ordained ministers with praier fasting 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ergo they ordained them without election of the people because no mentiō is made of the election or approbation of the people antecedent or subsequent The place serueth to prooue the right of election and ordination whatsoeuer was in Paul and Barnabas and not any wise in the people as it is an inuincible argument to bee gathered out of the wordes if the Demonstrator did vnderstand or T.C. for all his bragging a Greeke text aright When they had ordained vnto them ministers or pastorall elders for one the same in one respect cannot be ordainer those for whom they were ordained the consequence therfore is they did not ordaine with them or with the promiscuous multitude but for thē for here be three sundrie persons mentioned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the ordainers Paul and Barnabas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 priests or ministers ordained and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for the Churches of Antioch Iconium Lystra and Derbe That it must so be vnderstood appeareth thus Those which preached and taught v. 20. comforted the mindes and exhorted v. 21. praied with fastings v. 22. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it was they which as I translate it by imposition of hands ordained ministers vnto those churches for all those participles haue none other verbe to relate vnto But Paul and Barnabas were the persons onely that preached c. Ergo they only were the persons that so ordained ministers But against this cleare light they seeke to shadow themselues by the doubtful and heathenish interpretation of this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifying by etimologie to stretch out the hand they say is an allusion to the maner and custome of the multitude in some popular common wealths of Greece to signifie their assents by lifting vp their hands to matters proposed To grant thē that such custome was somewhere amongst the Grecians though rarely obserued is it likely that this confused course was thence borowed and brought into the Church by the Apostles Nay rather as vpon a custome not vnlike vsed amongst the Romanes all that doe assent by what gesture soeuer euen at this day may not vnaptly be said in Latine Pedibus ire in sententiam so was this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 drawen from that vsage to any ordaining or appointing of men to functions in what maner soeuer by one or moe as may appeare by infinite places in the purest Greeke writers prophane and diuine One example in S. Luke himselfe Acts 10. v. 41. may suffice where the same word is vsed viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 witnesses afore ordeined for the ordination and choise that God himselfe made of his apostles And the like is said Act. 22. v. 14. of Paul that God did ordaine him to know his will 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a word deriued of the hand They might hereof then as wel gather so might as probably translate those places as they doe this place that the Apostles Paul were chosen not only by God but by the suffrages of the people also that testified by lifting vp of their hands a thing absurd to be deemed and is not this a pretie opinion sufficiently wel grounded to trouble the church with that is built vpon nothing sauing the doubtfull interpretation of one single word This is no maruel for in trueth vpō the diuers interpretations of 8. or 10. such wordes in the testament is the whole frame almost of the new platforme builded as were easie to bee shewed in his due place Because they wil not beleeue me perhaps herein let thē for the true vnderstanding hereof peruse al the old Latin translations to be found the fathers Greek Latin that euer either writ of this place or haue occasion to vse the word for ordination of ministers they shal find that it importeth no creatiō or election by suffrages of the people but ordination with laying on of hands for if it should not here so signifie we should be driuen to confesse that Paul Barnabas laid not their hands of the ministers whom they ordained Chrysost in Act. 6. homil 13. S. Chrysostome an ancient Greeke father and Archb. of Constantinople thus writeth Nō dicit quomodo c. he telleth not how saith he but simplie saith that they were ordained by prayers for this is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is ordination The hand is laid vpon the man but it is God who worketh all and it is his hand that doth touch the head of the ordained if he be ordained as he ought And S. Hierome most plainly Hierom. in 58. Isaiae Three other interpreters saith he did translate the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a finger stretched forth but the most of vs do interprete it the ordination of clergie men which is performed not alone by the praier of the voice but by the laying on of hands But if the Demonstrator meant not deceitfully why did he not for proofe of the constant practise of the Apostles church herein produce all ordinations of ecclesiastical persons to any function in the whole testament Forsooth he saw the further he waded the lesse likelihood of his purpose For in Act. 13. the 4. prophets doctors of Antioch beside Paul did with praier fasting and laying on of hands ordaine separate Paul Barnabas to that holy function which the spirit there called thē vnto Here are no traces of peoples propounding electing or of any eldership to concur with these ecclesiastical ordainers yet was it then a most famous Church In 1. Tim. 3.4 c. he is taught the qualities of bishops Deacons and precepts are giuen to him that he might know how to conuerse behaue himself in the church of God 1. Tim. 3. 1. Tit. Titus was left by Paul in the Isle of Candie to supply that which wanted to ordain bishops and ministers in the congregations as S. Paul had afore prescribed to him In both which whole epistles not the least tidings are to be learned of any popular or Oligarchical intermedling in elections of people or of any such elders The conclusion therefore is that there is neither constant nor inconstant rule and practise of perpetuall election by the people from any example of the Acts or other part of the new testament The 2. Demonstration If the people had interest in the liking of their teaching Leuites Demonstration Then much more the people now But the first ergo the second Num. 8. v. 9. I like
serued It is a shame for you to alledge that Canon which maketh so directly for Priests Remonstrance Byshops and Metropolitanes The witnesse you bring for you you may not reiect The 19. Allegation Demonstration If any Bishop be chosen but out of the Bishops of the same prouince and of the clergie and citizens let another be chosen Con. Gabilon cap. 10. Wee confesse such elections of Bishops were in vse then the people hauing the least stroke therein Remonstrance but that maketh nothing to the state of the question whether it must needes bee so now in al ministers because it was then vsed in Bishops elections That which was vsed then these men themselues abrogate by taking away all such Byshops Note by the way the Demonstrator and T.C. can vse the testimonies of Councels which otherwise they impugne yea vse the testimony of a prouincial councell yea such a councell which 14. can giueth ordination of clearks vnto Bishops and forbiddeth 4. can any two Bishops to bee in one citie ordeined or abyding the contrary whereof the puritans draught doth importune and craue making euery pastor a Bishop by which reckoning there would be 129. Bishops in London The 20. Allegation out of the Emperors lawes Following the doctrine of the apostles c. we ordeine that as oft as any place of ministers shal be voyde in any citie Demonstration voyces shal be giuen of the inhabitants of the citie that one of three for right faith and holinesse Iustinian in cod be chosen to the Bishoprike The words of the constitution are craftily suppressed Remonstrance yet borrowed of Illiricus at second and third hand The demonstrator who doth gather the rapsodies she weth not where in the codi but in nouellis cōstitutionibus 123. following c. We make this pragmaticall law that as often as it shal be necessarie the clergie and primates of the citie shall assemble for which citie the Bishop is to be ordeyned and sweare to choose c of three one fitte aboue 35. yeeres olde The wordes are vt ex tribus illis personis quae decretis hoc modo eliguntur melior ordinetur electione et iudicio eorum qui ordinandi ius habeant By the inhabitants he meaneth clergie and chiefe of the citie so the inhabitants must choose three the Emperour choose one to be ordeyned Vnderstand in this law he sayth following c. Not for kind or manner of election but for the men eligible vt sint integerimi incorrupti for no such election for one to be chosen amongst three is to be deduced from the apostles of Christ The 21 Allegation Demonstrator Being not ignorant of the holy Canons c. We assent to the Ecclesiasticall order that the Bishop be chosen by the election of the Cleargy and people Carol mag distinct 63. sacrorum Canon He doth not say Canons of the Apostles or holy scripture which argueth sundry kinds maner of elections in sundry places but rather he saith Secundum statuta Canonum in propria diocaesi Remonstrance according to the statutes Canonicall of euery Dioecese for the Emperors would not suffer the diminution of any of their priuileges The 22. Demonstrator Allegation Ludouicus Caroli filius decreed that he should be Bishop of Rome whom the people should consent to choose This I take to be Distinct. 63. Remonstrance I know no better Illatiue a man may draw from this then Ergo it is in the power of the Emperour who made it to alter also the decree to what ende else saith he We decree The 23. Demonstrator Allegation Out of Platina in vita Adriani 2. the Romanes were commanded by letters to choose their owne Bishop Platina This is an vntrue report He doeth not command the doing but commend them for doing Remonstrance Romanos admodum laudat quod sanctè integrè creassent But howsoeuer the Emperor swallowed and digested the iniurie the Emperors Ambassadors were secluded and the election was tumultuous as for the most part popular elections are wont to be And euen then the Bishops of Rome began to vsurpe a tyrannie The 24. Allegation In the life of Leo the 8. Demonstrator Let the people saith Otho the Emperor choose I will approue This proueth the power of the ciuill magistrate Platina being Christian for election of Ministers Remonstrance and that the consent of the people is not necessarily requisit for this Otho put out Bennet whom the people had chosen in steede of Iohn the 13. and placed Leo againe whom the people had displaced But one thing must bee often iterated and inculcated vpon these learned Demonstrators The question is not betweene vs and antiquititie whether the people had approbation in elections of Bishops in diuers places of Christendome and especially in Rome But the question is betweene vs and the Churchwrights at this day whether the whole manner of all Ecclesiasticall mens elections be constantly precisely and singularly deduced from and attributed by the scriptures to the whole people of that Church The 25. Allegation of new writers Musculus in his common place of the title of magistrates Demonstration Bullinger 1. Timoth. 4. Caluin Institut 4. lib. 3. cap. sect 15. Confess Heluet. cap. 18. are ours and many others in this behalfe This Qui dicunt or Iurors cannot agree on their foreman Remonstrance to speake one thing or deliuer in one verdict For if Musculus say aplebe ministris in primis Ecclesys eligebantur antistites The Prelates were chosen of the people and ministers he will adde and say the trueth and the whole trueth Talis tum erat ecclesiarum status such was the state of the Church pollicie then nowe there is a Christian magistrate the state is otherwise As for Caluin Huius res certae regula ex Apostolorum institutione peti non potest he holdeth that there neuer was instituted by the Apostles any vniforme order in Church elections li. 4. Instit. ca. 3. sect 13. As for the confession it maketh no necessitie of such elections And for Bullinger contra Anabaptistas What doth he meane Remember him I pray you when he writeth thus The Anabaptists pretend a calling by the people But our calling is authorized from the Christian Prince who is therewith credited by the Christian people The 26. Allegation or Demonstration If there be none write against it but the Papists Demonstrator and no other argumentes but Papisticall then the election belongeth to the people the 1. is true Ergo the second This is a long leape from the antecedent to the consequent Remonstrance à personis adres If none but Papistes or if all Papistes bande against election by the people then is the election by the people true aswell if all transubstantiators write against consubstantiators Ergo all consubstantiation is by the reason a likelihoode of truth If no
Papists had written against popular election Absurditie of the Demonstrator popular electiō is neuer the truer If none but the papists did first extirpat heresies then were those heresies to haue likelihoode of trueth To the Assumption But none c. Many orthodoxe old and new writers write against their popularity of election and against their positions As for arguments they are plentiful in scriptures Councels Fathers besides the practise welneere of al the world of Christianitie The 1. obiection of the Demonstrator They were vnder the crosse and fewe in number Ergo the fitnesse sooner knowen and easier espied Demonstration The Answere of the Demonstrator The gospel was dispersed throughout al Asia Affricke Europe and coulde keepe lesse together Ergo that maketh for vs. Although the gospel was sowen in Asia Remonstrance with reply Affricke Europe Neuerthelesse it is not so much to haue it sowen in many places as to haue it deepely suncken in many persons and generally receiued Ergo this maketh rather against then for you And therfore could not be such vniforme assemblies as immediatly in Ierusalem vpon the assension of our sauiour multitudinis credentium erat cor vnum via vna The 2. obiection of the Demonstrator There are many hypocrytes Demonstration Ergo dangerous to grant elections vnto them The Answere of the Demonstrator True but it is a principle in hypocrisie to be forward in elections and such actions Belike the demonstrator hath read ouer the Aphorismes of hypocrisie Remonstrance with reply or an hypocrite himselfe being a man so forward to set forward these elections sauouring of popularitie Me thinketh I may mislike the answere it should be thus shaped to his owne obiection because hypocriticall men are many in the church Ergo many such may set forward such elections The argument doth not hold à coniugatis but that hypocriticall electors will make hypocritical elections and eligible hypocrites and fewe others in their church The 3. obiection of the Demonstrator They had knowledge our people are ignorant Demonstration The Answere of the Demonstrator Our people would haue knowledge if they had teaching they cannot choose worse then the Bishops and the patrons Our people would c. This is an apparant digression and no answere to himselfe Remonstrance with reply Our people haue not the knowledge together with those gifts the primitiue christians had howbeit if the patrons might present and the Bishops freely without suite in lawe choose you should finde the commoditie of Bishops election As for patrons some I know most honourable most vertuous and religious patrons who wil not to gaine a world of commodities defile their hands with pitch of briberie as for cormorant patrones whereof some I knowe no man meaneth to patronize their sacrilegious impietie The 4. Obiection of the Demonstrator The Church was noe then established Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator That is vntrue for the Apostles did better establish without the helpe of the Christian Magistrate then we with the helpe of them Nay it is most infallibly true that colourably you now obiect Remonstrance with reply For the Church was not established concerning ciuill gouernment and Magistracie which did persecute the Church and killed the children of it in manner altogether massacring the Christian professors howbeit the church was established concerning faith and spirituall gouernment not concerning the visible societie and pollicie of the Church externally being then vnder persecution And therefore the Illation is false and erroneous to say the Apostles did better establish the outward face of Christianitie and practise of religion then Christian Kings and Queenes in their tender care and maintenance of the Churches pollicie But hereof may be gathered howe gladly these men would seclude all Christian Princes from rule in matters Ecclesiastical as I haue afore noted The 5. Obiection of the Demonstrator Drunkards and Papistes will choose like themselues the best disposed are fewest Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator Such are not of the Church but without 1. Cor. 5.12 v. Knowne drunkards are in the Church but not of the Church Remonstrance vnlesse they repent As for the eldership to reforme the people which you would haue is for the multitude to reforme the multitude And as for the schooles of the Prophets if you meane the Vniuersities which you must send your Ministers vnto they will send fewe enough to you their maintenance being taken away by those whome you haue organized all might come to barbaritie and Turcisme The 6. Obiection of the Demonstrator Paule commaundeth Timothie to lay handes on no man rashly Timoth. 1.5 cap. 22. v. ergo One did it Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator Hee teacheth what to doe for his parte though others would be rashe hee should not ioyne with them He teacheth him his dutie Remonstrance and in him all others that haue power to ordeine Ministers to do nothing with temeritie Looke vpon the place S. Paul speaketh singulariter to Timothie not to any Eldership This interpretation is but a newe tricke of one of their Patriarkes in his Ecclesiasticall discipline neuer heard of afore and is conuinced by the pregnant circumstances of the place and the vniforme consent of all ancient writers thereupon For the epistle is directed to Timothie himselfe to the end to teach him how to demeane himselfe in the Church Immediatly afore this place he giues precepts how widowes should be maintained and what proportion of allowance he was to make vnto ministers howe Timothie should receaue an accusation against a minister what course he should vse in admonitions and rebukes according to the diuersitie of sinnes Then Paul adiureth him most earnestly that in the exercise of his office in this behalfe he obserue an equall course of iustice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without all preiudicate opinion or leaning to one side more then to another viz. preiudice and partialitie two wordes iudiciall and two things that are the very banes of all vpright administration of iustice Then followeth after iurisdiction this precept of ordination wherein he ought not to deale rashly lest otherwise his sinnes whome he so ordeineth be imputed vnto him the ordeiner And after a litle answereth an obiection that might be made howe it shoulde bee possible for him to knowe afore hande other mens sinnes that in this behalfe he might keepe him selfe blamelesse Therefore Paul to take this away saith That his meaning is not of sinnes that such shall commit afterward but of such as were committed afore which could no more be hidden then a mans good conuersation by past could be so that by the whole course appeareth that the other mens sinnes whereof in ordinations he is willed to beware lest he communicate with them and be made guiltie of them are the sinnes of him that is to haue imposition of handes and not any eldership sinnes by reason of their rash ordeining of others which these men had
taketh vpon him to preach is a preacher nay according to the first Demonstration and others of this chapter and his interpretation of it none be The hauing a Reader debarreth not from seeking to a Preacher and therefore it is better to haue readers then none at all As for parrat Preachers it is better to haue a discreete Reader then one of them who are bolde and hambolde to speake but speake not to the purpose or else speake schismatically and therefore are turned out The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator It is impossible to haue preachers euery where Demonstration ergo readers Answere of the Demonstrator This is a disgrace to say it is impossible and yet to say all is well and to violate the Lordes decree He that is challenged so to say by you Remonstrance with reply saith it is not possible as the state is nowe to haue such supplie in euery free chappell or place of seruice of a preacher there is some difficultie in compassing of this But to depraue other mens word is your speciall grace as for breaking Gods decree you must better proue it then you haue or else neuer say that the parte of a ministers dutie to reade in the Church to be thus vnlawfull In the feare of God be it spoken we will thanke God for our freedome both to reade Gods word and preach and pray for her Maiesties gratious continuance for so much quantitie of dominion no such plenteous preaching is in all the world as in her Maiesties dominion God increase the number of learned and well aduised preachers The 4. Obiection of the Demonstrator It were vncharitablenes to turne bare Readers out Demonstration for they their wiues and children should begge Answere of the Demonstrator Better 3. or 4. begge then damnation of 1000. Yea it were iniustice and impietie to turne them away Remonstrance with replie because they cannot preach for they can exhort and teache and minister the sacraments no such feare of damnation of a 1000. But it is your preiudice and condemnation to auouch that by their ministerie God cannot saue soules I doubt not but much better by sundrie mens labours being but simple in learning then by the most of that crue their vaine verball babling which with griefe of heart I knowe the most of your humour to vse in sermons for set aside a fewe resonant ill applied wordes culled together to astonish the simple a litle for that time what order what learning or any thing else tending to the building of the inward man in spirituall knowledge is to be founde in most of their speakings or exercises So that I see no difference betwixt such vnlearned talkers and the ignorant ministers whome with great disdaine they terme neuer better then Dumbe dogges but that these because they cannot preach will not and therefore are lesse impudent the other in truth cannot barke but yet will be bolde to be balling though it be but against the Moone or with running riot How much different is S. Hieroms iudgement from yours he saith thus It is a fault in some Bishops Hierom. 〈…〉 19. 〈…〉 that chuse not into the Clergie those who be the best but who talke the best non meliores sed argutiores and thinke simple and harmelesse men to be vnliable for the ministerie The 2. Assertion of the Demonstrator That the Church ought not to be gouerned by Commissaries Officials Demonstration and Chancellors The 1. Demonstration They who are no elders ought not to haue any thing to doe in the gouernment of the Church 1. Tim. 5.17 Those Chancellors Commissaries Officials are no elders whether you take elder for a minister or assistant ergo To the Maior The Maior proposition is intricated both with schisme vntruth Remonstrance and treason For the Queenes Maiestie is no elder no minister no priest and yet hath and ought to haue the gouernment of the Church whereas such elders as you meane haue nothing at all to doe in the Church either by precept or president The conuersion is false which the Demonstrator would haue gathered Elders gouerne well ergo they that are no Elders doe not gouerne others may gouerne in the actions of the Church who are no pastorall elders which is the answere to your Minor For Chancellors Commissaries Officials they are assistant to the pastorall elders or doe gouerne in foro litigioso and yet many of them also pastorall elders and ministers It is a loude lie to say none of them are ministers Well the griefe is that euery minister may not gouerne and rule without checke of all superiors not onely bishops or their substitutes but any other This is a wise Demonstration which is a paralogisme consisting all of negatiues and is like to this viz. No bishoply authoritie is lawfull none eldership is a bishoply authoritie ergo none eldership is lawfull The 2. Demonstration They who must gouerne the Church Demonstra must haue a warrant for so doing from Christ But the Chancellors c. haue no warrant from Christ ergo The Maior is false if you meane immediately from Christ Remonstr or especially and positiuely warranted otherwise then as all superiour power is of God It is sufficient to be warranted from the Christian Magistrate those who occupie the place of the Apostles else a Maior Sherife and Constable Iustice of peace and maister of an Hospitall should haue an vnlawfull authoritie For a man may no more deale without lawfull warrant in the Common-wealth then he may doe in the externall gouernment of the Church To the Minor Their warrant is out of the worde of God He that gouerneth in diligence Rom. 12. The bishops and others make them partakers of their authoritie by way of delegation and substitution which in Church and Common-wealth is both lawfull for not onely by the equitie but by examples of Scriptures and practise of the Primitiue Church substitution may be approoued lawfull The 3. Demonstration They whose names Demonstration offices and practise be deriued from Antichrist may not gouerne the Church of Christ for who will suffer his wife to be gouerned by the maister of a Brothell house but so are the names c. of our Chancellors because they are grounded in the filthie dunghill of the Canon lawe ergo To the Maior The Maior is of infinite distance from the Minor Remonstrance I answere to the Minor The name of Chancellor is not founde in all the Canon Lawe in that sence it is vsed but in the Ciuill Lawe of the Romanes is vsed for any chiefe assistant sitting intra eosdem tribunalis cancellos cum Magistratu as I haue learned of those who be skilfull and is not repugnant vnto but may be said to be deriued out of Gods lawe if the deriuation be drawne à cancellis to keepe vnbrideled or inordinate men intra cancellos within their boundes So the name of Commissaries by reason of commission or matter of
matrimoniall or for preseruation of Churches and Church goods or lastly of punishing faults which the temporall law doth not punish those are either diffamation of a mans neighbours at the sute of some partie or of other faults as blasphemie sorcerie adulterie drunkennesse c. the publike corporall punishment whereof if it bee commuted into pecuniarie to their owne priuate gaine it is not by law warranted but is the personall fault of the man deepely punishable and therfore this Minor is both without apparance of trueth and very opprobrious The seuenth Chapter Assertion of the Demonstrator OFficers of the Church are to bee ordained by imposition of hands of the Eldership Demonstration The 1. Demonstration As in the Apostles time they were ordained so they must bee still ordained But in the Apostles time they were ordained by laying on of hands c. Ergo they must continually be so ordained To the Maior This word As Remonstrance in the Maior proposition importeth either the whole action of ordination it selfe with the maner or forme or the ceremonie alone vsed in ordaining there is ambiguitie and doubting in this Tell vs first which you vnderstand and then we can tell you after whether euery forme or accidentall ceremonie ought of necessitie to be vsed or refused now which in the ordaining of ecclesiasticall persons was vsed then To the Minor But in the Apostles times c. by the Eldership Act. 6. v. 6. and cap. 13.3 say you Nay imposition of hands cannot be attributed to any eldership there vnlesse you will force a strange interpretation of the text viz. Apostleship to be Eldership Apostles to be vnpreaching elders your elderships now to be as the Apostles were then in the Church for the first mention of Elders viz. ministers is Act. 11. And so all things may bee one Omnia sunt vnum Turne Laitie into Clergie and Clergie into Laitie ouerturne all In like wise no more probabilitie is to bee gathered out of the other place Acts 13.3 There were in Antioch 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Absurditie of the Demonstrator In the Church as it then stood certaine Prophets and teachers as Barnabas and Simeon called Niger and Lucius of Cyrene Manahem and Saul Now as they ministred and fasted to the Lord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whiles they preached saieth Chrysostome expounding that place or whiles they ministred vnto or for the Lord. But how followeth it out of this place that because there were Prophets and Doctors in the Church there Ergo there were vnpreaching Elders also though not specificallie named to be there Or these fasted and prayed and laied their hands vpon Barnabas and Saul Ergo other vnpreaching elders also laied their hands you may as iustly conclude They were not there ergo they were there or the elders laied not their hands ergo they laied on their hands But hereof we thus reason against you As in the Apostles times they were ordained so they must bee still ordained In the Apostles ordinations is no one word of ordination by such laie elders that might not minister the word and Sacraments nor in any other pregnant place of Scripture nor euer practised for fifteene hundred yeeres and an halfe in any Christian Church Ergo In ordinations your Elders must haue nothing to doe for it were intollerable presumption where the holy Ghost mentioneth not nor insinuateth any such thing for man to say they were neuerthelesse there What like Elders to yours were at Mathias election Actes 1. at the choise of the seuen Actes 6. where none are named but the Apostles and the rest of the beleeuers At the separating of Paul and Barnabas in this place Actes 13. but foure other Prophets and Doctors at the ordination of so many ministers for sundrie Churches Acts 14. other then Paul and Barnabas the ordainers the ministers then newly ordained and the people for whom they were ordained at Timothies ordination more then Paul Per impositionem manuum mearum as shall appeare In Crete to assist Titus ad Tit. 1. except you will say they had elderships before they had any Elders or yet ministers or before the Churches were planted And againe If ordination must needes as is here concluded continually be made by the eldership thē can no church or congregation newly to be established elect and ordaine their owne ministers and Eldership But in this case you doe attribute this whole action to the people of such congregation ergo by your owne rules all ordinations must not bee continually by the Eldership for if it should your Church gouernment shall neuer haue any beginning The 2. Demonstration Church officers must bee ordained by them who can assure them of their calling Demonstration Onely the eldership can assure 1. Tim. 4.14 Ergo I much muse how the author can terme his booke a Demonstration Remonstrance So many chinkes in one planke argueth vnseasoned timber The conclusion hath onely the Eldership which onely lieth not in the Maior proposition The Demonstration is neither formall nor materiall To the Minor Viz. Onely the Eldership can assure 1. Tim. 4.14 that is no way the purpose of the place as shall easilie appeare Despise not the grace or neglect not the grace which is in thee and was giuen thee by prophesie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With laying on hands of the Eldership Whether you doe vnderstand and expound Neglect not the grace which is in thee and was giuen thee by prophesie that is by diuine oracle and imposition of handes with prayer of other pastorall elders as by speciall occasion of a speciall grace confirmed vnto thee which Beza himselfe doth insinuate and not his creation for the Ministerie Or whether wee vnderstand Despise not c. the grace or gift which is in thee now and was sometime by prophesie conferred vpon thee by a farther confirmation of the laying on or imposition of hands of the function and office of Pastorship and presbyterie which is laied vpon thee as Caluin doth allow rather then to be by any Colledge and officers of the presbyterie It can neuer be vnderstood either in part or in whole of a Laicall presbyterie to assure men of their ordinarie calling in the ministerie for they that cannot conferre the like grace how can they by the imitation hereof assure the calling In those dayes by laying on of hands were often the visible graces of the holy ghost bestowed The fallacie is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Fallacie secundùm figuram dictionis For presbyterie there is not the companie or colledge of ordainers but the ordination or order giuen by one alone principall in his authoritie The figure is Metonymia the signe the imposition of hands for the thing signified At the least this is a foule absurditie Absurditie of the Demonstrator that neuer any was either in the practise of the Apostles Church or succeedingly or in our church assured of his
doctrine of a particular example or singular may not be concluded Remonstrance with reply we may not follow the examples of the Apostles and the time which were peculiar vnto them to the time but such as the Apostles would haue vs to embrace and follow But you haue for ordinations by Lay men neyther rule reason example neyther in Scripture nor at anie time since til at Geneua they begunne it not as an ordinaunce of Christ as is now vrged but as a kinde of gouernment in Church causes fitting that popular state Gualter complaineth that whereas at first they of Geneua writ to them of Zuricke for aduise but whether they might plant such a gouernement they did after finde fault with the Tigurines for not establishing the like What is this but to make Geneua the protestantes Rome whereunto all others must conforme The eight Chapter The Assertion of the Demonstrator THE ordayning of Church officers must be by prayer of the Eldership Demonstrator and the Congregation Eccles Discipl fol. 50. The Demonstrator quoteth one of his fellowes for this Remonstrance as if it were Saint Paul God wote it is a sillie fellowe The Ecclesiastical discipliner But he need not slanderour ordination as done in a corner 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 26.27 None of this as Paul said so can wee say hath bin done in a corner they may come to the celebration of it if they lift to come I will trusse vpshorter these three waste Demonstrations 1 We must behaue our selues as the Apostles and Elders did Demonstrator 2 By how much greater the action is by so much more humble our selues in prayer 3 The Eldership the people haue part of the comfort or discomfort Ergo All ought to ioyne together in prayer We confesse al this Remonstrance but bid them first proue their new formed eldership must alway be a partie not onely of the solemnitie but of the necessitie of the action I obserue by the way this The Apostles and they who did ordeyne ioyned therewith Act. 13. Act. 14. fasting and prayer Act. 13. Act. 14. which our Demonstrator leaueth out who otherwise are so curiously precise in bynding vs to the example of primitiue imitation Belike fasting is popish except they that fast be holden together with foure or fiue Sermons arowe that they cannot breake their fast though they would except they doe as some Iurors do bring some what in their pockets with them The ninth Chapter FOr the profite of imposition of hands the Demonstrator vseth three Demonstrations Demonstration 1 That which stirreth euery party to feruencie must be vsed 2 That which helpeth forward the party ordeyned in his care 3 That which worketh an acknowledgement of Gods ordinance in the peoples hearts must be vsed So is the ceremony of laying on handes Ergo it must be vsed The Demonstrator is busied about matter of ceremonie Remonstrance let him alone in Gods name But this ceremonie that thus is vsed would haue beene better vnderlaide with scripture especially where such notable effectes not onely as signes bee attributed vnto it and by those that pretend the least matter may not bee admitted in Church matters without direct proofe out of Scripture This maketh nothing for the new conceiued Eldership of Lay Presbyters who are to be erected forsooth to prophane our holy and sacred ordination make it cōmunicable with the common people Here I obserue that to this ceremonie not onely a signification of a doctrine as they therfore cauil against the signe of the crosse in Baptisme but euen spirituall effectes are attributed vz. to stirre vp Feruencie in prayer a feeling sensible of the charge spirituall layd vpon the ordeyned to worke a care of walking in a good conscience and to giue hope of Gods continual assistance in that calling If we had sayde halfe so much it had bin making a new Sacrament popish and blasphemie at least But this Chapter maketh not against vs who retaine it but those reformed churches that haue left the imposition of hands in ordinations The tenth Chapter The Assertion of the Demonstrator ONe Bishop at the least must be president ouer euery congregation Demonstration which Bishops are equal in their seueral charges in the general gouernment of the Church Out of this Assertion of one B. President are deduced two branches Remonstrance 1 One may haue but one benefice 2 One may not bee aboue another but all this serueth for their parish Bishops The 1. Demonstration One may not haue more then he is able to discharge No man in anie measure is able to discharge more then one Demonstration because hee cannot preach in season and out of season Ergo none may haue more charges then one The whole conclusion is of negatiues if the Demonstrator will speake congruitie Remonstrance for one may not is as much as none may haue Besides the Medium is praedicatum in maiore subiectum in minore But we must forgiue you this misdeede though it be not primum tempus with you it is a common fault To the Minor One and the same morter wil dawbe your Maior Minor No man may haue more then hee is able to discharge in some measure per se aut vicaria fide By himselfe or his sufficient deputie as for deputation it is lawful both in ciuill and Ecclesiastical functions or make instance to the contrary As for the reason he cannot preach 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nothing is so sure as that hee may preache both by worde example and hospitalitie though he doe not alwayes corporally reside The rectorie of a small village or towneship is not as the gouernment of a whole citie territorie which did import Titus and Timothie to doe their dutie in season and out of season in straiter measure Besides the Minor is false for in good measure may one man discharge two not farre distant preach as shal be sufficient at both If you so vnderstand in season and out of season as if a man should preach continually then shall not a man haue any time to pray which he is also willed to doe continually then shall there be no cause of being away allowed no not for an houre which your selues find to be absurd therfore take as much libertie many of you as any that hath two cures doth at either The 2. Demonstration That which maketh an open entrance to the enemy to spoyle Demonstration cannot be lawfull To haue more charges then one doeth so Ergo vnlawfull To the Minor It is not the diuersitie of charges for it is alway Regimen animarum Remonstrance one regiment or cure of soules nor the hauing them but the hauing no care of them which is a spoyle left to the enemie A man may be absent and yet haue continuall care and leaue both direction and instruction for them I pray you who driues the diuel away from
left and to be the greatest was an honour and ciuil preheminence and authoritie next vnto Christ in such his kingdome that they shot at He reprooued therefore this erroneous conceit and for thinking that ciuil iurisdiction should appertaine to them as they were apostles and drew them to another consideration of his heauenly kingdome If they desired that to be giuen them to haue the very condition state of their persons so aduanced with earthly honor authoritie ciuil in regard of some speciall affection which each of thē seuerally supposed Christ did beare vnto him in this respect was it their ambition the was reprooued But if ech of thē thoght such an honor due to himself by reasō of some excellēt qualities aboue others which he fansied to be in himself then was their arrogancie and want of humilitie withall rebuked And lastly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the brawle contention that all the apostles burst foorth into about this matter was by our Sauiour taxed and blamed Now the BB. in this church of England do not claime any ciuil iurisdiction or authoritie to be incident to their callings although if as citizens of the common weale subiects some such be imposed vpon them by the prince as they may not lawfully refuse so we know they may lawdablie vse it But if either erroneously any of them should thinke ciuil iurisdiction of or vnder earthly princes to belong vnto them as successors of the apostles or if they seeke after any authoritie whatsoeuer ambitiously arrogantly or contentiously such should iustly incurre our Sauiors censure and reproofe in this place In that by the law and customes of the land they haue the title of lordes this is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 simplie in it selfe in regard of their bishoprikes but by reason of the Baronries which are annexed of old vnto those dignities yet it is but a mere title of external honor as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the Gręcians Dominus with the Latins without any authoritie or iurisdiction annexed For there is neuer a lord in the land either of the ecclesiastical or ciuill state that hath any iote of authoritie or iurisdiction in him as he is a Baron Neuertheles the apostles and BB. their successors are not therfore without all rule superioritie for they are termed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ouerseers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernements or gouernors 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 men set ouer others 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rulers guides or directers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 feeders rulers which they cannot be except they haue some rule gouernment authoritie But this rule and authoritie is but ecclesiasticall whereas that which was affected by the apostles was ciuill which ecclesiastical authoritie whether it be wholy or in part condemned by that generall doctrine there deliuered by our Sauior doth now rest to be considered We are therfore in these words Vos autē non sic it shal not be so amongst you to note these two things viz. vnto whom such prohibition reacheth what rule it is which is there forbidden First it was not spoken to the apostles as they represented the whole Church as may appeare by the example the Christ propoundeth to thē of his own abasing of himself Neither was it forbiddē so to euerie one of them seuerallie as if it might haue bene permitted to them all together or to the greater part of them Quia nihil est in composito quod non est in simplicibus vel actu vel saltem habitudine If no one of thē might exercise such rule nor any part of it thē cannot they altogether haue it neither yet was the prohibition personall to them for then it would follow that albeit no one of them might haue authoritie ouer the rest yet their successours neuerthelesse whether more properly taken as bishops or generally as all ministers of the word might haue had such authoritie as is there forbidden which were absurd to imagine so that the prohibition reacheth to thē all to euery one of them to their successours also The whole difficultie therfore now resteth in this what kind of authoritie or rule either ecclesiastical or ciuil it is which vnder the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is forbidden And because there are many resemblāces between ecclesiastical ciuil authoritie the exact laying foorth of ciuil authoritie serueth aptly for the vnderstanding of the other I wil distribute ciuil or temperal authoritie into his parts differēces according to Arist other Politiciās Authoritie ciuil or temporal as we speake is either oeconomical such as is exercised within the limits of one family or Politicall ouer greater societies Oeconomicall is either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the husband ouer the wife being the most moderate Or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the authoritie of the father ouer the children being more ample or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is of two sortes either of the housholder ouer such of his houshold as bee of condition free men and is lesse milde then the other two or of the Lord ouer his bondmen and villaines which is most seuere and absolute of all the others Politicall authoritie is either supreme that is Soueraigne or els subordinate and delegated Soueraigne or supreme is either Absolute called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is of two sortes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Seigneuriall such as the good Emperors of Rome had and vsed who though they had all authoritie in thē without restraint so that their word was a law yet did they vse it according to the rules of ciuill honestie iustice or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tyrannous where not onely their will is a law but they also vse it contrary to all rules of ciuill honestie or iustice as the Empire of the Turkes Russes and other Barbarians or limited by certaine boundes of lawes That which is Soueraigne and yet limited is also of two kindes either wholy limited by lawes as is the authoritie of ordinarie chiefe magistrates in all free common weales as the dukes of Venice c. or restrained but in part as for the most part in all monarchies and kingdoms For albeit kings and such soueraigne Monarches are so tied to lawes as that they cannot dispose of their subiects liues or liuelihood and goods contrary to them yet are they at libertie to allowe or disallow lawes to be made to enhance or decrie the price or standerd of their coines to pardon offenders condemned by law and to make warre or peace truce or league Those which haue subordinate or delegated authoritie by the supreme magistrate they may not claime nor exercise more then is allowed vnto thē either by commissiō or by law Of all these authorities there is none as I take it simply vnlawfull but the tyrannicall gouernment which maketh self-wil a law And therefore this both here and also by other places
the authoritie of Metropolitane dicecesan bishops as also of Presbyter and bishop in the same canon The 7. Demonstr 3. Conc. Carth. Allegation or Demonstration If an elder be accused he may call 6. bishops from the place hard by These are fractions and not distinct demonstrations Remonstrance Your allegation hath an answer before The paucitie or fewnesse of our BB. doth not make against the multitude of theirs therefore this demonstration serueth you to no vse The 8. Demonstr Euseb li. 5. ca. 16 Socrates 4.26 Quest 16. dist 50. Theod. li. 5. c. 4. Allegation or Demonstration Stories make mention of one Sotichus bishop of village of Cuman Of one Mares of Solicha Gregorie of Nazianzum a small Citie Bishop of a castle The towne or place of their See might be litle their iurisdiction great Remonstrance I know not whether it be your or your Printers fault Theodoret remembreth one Mares of Dolicha as for the bishop of Solicha and the bishoprike of that God send all the packe of you no better bishoprikes Dorchester was once the bishops See of Lincolne Shirburne of Sarum Selsey of Cicester Thetford of Norwich Cridie of Excester c. yet the iurisdictions and dicecesses as large as now and some of them much larger The 9. Allegation A minister Demonstr Hier. ad Euagr. super Titum ad Oceanum that is to say a bishop A minister and a bishop all one to Titus With the ancient fathers bishops and ministers all one I must remember you what is said also in the same place Remonstrance Presbyter episcopus aliud aetatis aliud dignitatis Non dico de presbyteris non de inferiori gradu ad episcopos venio Priest a name of age Bishop of dignitie and office Priest an inferiour degree other where priests supplie the Apostles place the bishop supplieth Christes place Be your owne remembrancer in the epistle to Oceanus the drift of Hierome is to shew a difference oddes betweene Deacon and Priest because of certaine who made the Deacon equall to the Priest and yet for all that alway the preheminence of the bishop before the Priest Nam Alexandriae à Marco Euangelista vsque ad Heracliam Dionysium episcopos presbyteri semper vnum ex se electum in superiori gradu collocatum episcopum nominabant Euen from Marke the Euangelist downward to his time the bishop of Alexandria had a superior degree aboue the pastorall elders The 10. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr D. Barns Acts Monum fol. 216. in the 6. art I will neuer beleeue one can be bishop ouer two or three cities or a whole countrey by the law of God I know not whether he saith so or no but if he haue read and remembred that Titus was bishop of Candie Ignatius of Syria Remonstrance with infinite moe out of the Fathers and Councils he would bee of another beliefe Many things slipped such men vpon hatred to popish bishops The 11. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr Hooper super 8. comm pa. 90. The office of a bishop is degenerate In the primitiue Church they had no bishops as we haue He speaketh of bishops vnder the Popedome Remonstrance or els the speach might very well be spared his words are If the fourth part remaine to the bishop a third part to the teachers two parts to the poore one part to the souldiours it were better bestowed c. then it is bestowed now None of our bishops haue a fourth part vpon the diuision of all the ecclesiasticall reuenues of his dioeces and therefore no cause herein to assigne a fault in the diuision But if there might be as bishop Hooper thought a more equall diuision what is this to prooue a bishops authoritie in euery Pastor of a parish The eleuenth Chapter Assertion of the Demonstrator THere must be Doctors in the Church Demonstration which is an office different from a Pastor The 1. Demonstration That which the Apostles doe distinguish are distinct but the Apostles distinguish Doctours from Pastours 12. Rom. 7. Eph. 4.11 v. as he doeth distinguish man from woman Gal. 3.28 v. Ergo To the Minor The Apostle maketh distinguishment of giftes Remonstrance not of offices in the first two places albeit distinct giftes and offices yet coincident in one The Apostles did exhort they did teach Actes 2. Peter and Actes 7. Steuen Paul a Doctor and yet spake the word of exhortation Of euery action or qualitie groweth not a separable office and function perpetuall in the Church There are certaine who must distribute Absurditie of the Demonstrator shew mercie prophesie gainsay and stop the mouthes of the gainsaier ergo there are seuerall and set offices officers so many in number as are qualities numbred But the Demonstrator saith distinguished as man and woman Gal. 3. v. 28. S. Paul maketh no distinguishment but a combination or connexion of all in Christ he saith not there is bond there is free male and female but neither male nor female c. The Demonstrator had this obiection for the acception of a copulatiue in that place to the Galathians out of the Fenny water of the Country-poison but the good soule vnderstood it not The meaning was that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the copulatiue maketh a distinction betweene Doctor and Pastor Eph. 4. as it doeth Gal. 3. distinguish betweene male and female But how like those two places are the one to the other to make any such shew I would those that haue but a smacke of Greeke or of any iudgement would consider The 2. Demonstration As the gifts are diuers Demonstration so the offices but the giftes of Doctor and Pastor are diuers 1. Cor. 12. as also experience teacheth Ergo To the Maior Diuers gifts make not diuers offices Remonstrance many gifts go to one facultie science office gift of memorie subtiltie to penetrate betweene the cause and the effect iudgement action eloquution to an Orator One man may be better able to diuide his text another to perswade and yet an office of a preacher To the Minor Though they be sundry giftes yet are they not sundered into seuerall offices Apollos was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 eloquent and yet full of forcible perswasion Act. 18. but you could not haue a more probable place against the making of the Pastor and Doctor two seuerall offices then this of the 1. Cor. 12. for the same officers are here reckoned vp that are in the 4. to the Ephesians and yet no mention here of Pastors but onely Doctors which argueth that vnder the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Doctors Pastors be also contained for els were the diuision vnperfect and the Doctor might better then the Pastor haue bene omitted whome you make not so necessarie as Pastor The 3. Demonstration They who are to take a diuerse course are diuerse The Pastor is to exhort Demonstration the Doctor to attend doctrine
causam The Iudges and Iustices are lesse able to execute the lawes at full by reason of mens insolencie and custome of offences Absurditie of the Demonstrator Ergo shall it followe that the Parliament must erect some other new kinde of magistracie The consequencie is Ergo they must execute the lawes with more seueritie If the ministers be not able to direct in godlines it is but a poore helpe they are like to haue of your Elders for such direction The 2. Demonstration If Christian magistrates must maintaine the order set downe by 1. Cor. 12.8 Demonstration v. then Elders must bee vnder a Christian magistrate but they are c. Ergo 49. Esai 23. You haue bene answered and reanswered againe for that allegation of text 1. Cor. 12.8 v. Remonstrance that you haue no aduantage for your elders to bee deduced from that text but see see howe the elder would obteine the title of a Christian magistrate As for the argument out of Esai 49. ca. 23. v. Kings Queenes they shall worship thee with their faces towards the earth Absurditie of the Demonstrat Ergo great homage belike shal be done to the eldership the rather because it shrowdeth it selfe vnder the appellation of a Christian magistrate The 3. Demonstration If the rule of Christ Dic Ecclesiae cannot be obserued without elders Demonstration then may they bee vnder a Christian magistrate but the former is true Ergo the latter To the Assumption By the Church is meant the Senate of ministers and elders Remonstrance saith the Demonstrator This is newe interpretation of dic Ecclesiae this were newes in Christendome a man cannot informe the Church of a matter vnlesse he go to the Aldermen and ministers of euery particular Church Dic Ecclesiae with Chrisostome Chrisostome 61. Hom. super Matth. is tell the presidents and gouernours and prelates of the Church Praesulibus scilicet praesidentibus If none haue neede to tell the elders then the rule of dic Ecclesiae tell the Church may bee kept without them but no man hauing ordinarie and ecclesiasticall lawfull magistrates neede to runne to the laicall elders Ergo for ought that I knowe the rule may be kept without them The 4. Demonstration If the whole gouernment of the Church be described to Titus and Timothie to be obserued to the end then there must be elders vnder a Christian magistrate Demonstration but the first is true Ergo the second 1. Tim. 6.14 v. To the Antecedent I denie the sequell of the Antecedent Remonstrance for all the descriptions there yet there are no elders If you meane the whole and sole gouernment of the Church to bee described I denie the whole Antecedent for the deaconship of women is but a temporarie and no perpetual thing which is there described so you are once againe to seeke for your elders To the Assumption The ecclesiasticall gouernment is described not in specie but in genere and so it is prescribed The 5. Demonstration Demonstration Where sinne is most outragious there is need of all helpers to punish sinne c. so it is vnder a Christian magistrate Ergo need of Elders There needeth no new magistracie nor ministerie in the church Remonstrance but the ciuill and ecclesiasticall helpe that alreadie is This is but a base and accidentall originall and birth of elders Ex malis moribus nascuntur bonae leges Because there are inordinate men we must of pure needs haue these ignoble elders to correct them The thirteenth Chapter Assertion THere must be Deacons who must only receiue and distribute the liberalitie of the Saints Demonstration not intermeddle with the ministerie The 1. Demonstration That wherein Stephen and the rest were employed is the office of a Deacon but they were only for the poore Acts 6.4 Ergo the office of a Deacon is only for the poore To the Minor The Deacons serued occasionally by reason of the same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance murmuring for reliefe of the poore but principally they serued for attendance and ease of the ministerie and distribution to the poore Not onely therefore for the poore They were mensarum viduarum ministri saith S. Hierom at which feasts it is knowen the communion was celebrated The 2. Demonstration That office which the Apostle maketh distinct Demonstration may not be mingled But Rom. 12. distributing in simplicitie is so Ergo The Maior lacketh a word perpetually distinct The Minor is false Remonstrance the reason holdeth not frō distinct vertues to offices Let my reason bend against you Either all those or some of those or none of those are distinct If all why cause you not seuerall offices out of all None you will not say That were to gainsay you selues If some are and some are not shew by some demonstration and not by allegation which are and which are not Why to distribute is perpetuall and distinct why to shewe mercie is not perpetuall why a distributer is better then a shewer of mercie may no man that distributeth vse simplicitie lest he incroch vpon the Deacons office The 3. Demonstration That which the Apostles found themselues insufficient for Demonstration that no man can nowe discharge but they were insufficient for the Ministerie of the word and ministration to the poore Act. 6.2 ergo The Maior is false Remonstrance The Apostles hauing the generall care to plant Churches in all the worlde might be vnmeete and so vnfit to serue the tables of the widowes of the Greekes and Hebrewes after the Church so mightily increased and yet some men now for a narrowerprecinct be able both to preach and to doe the like sith the seuering of those two offices in the Apostles time which is not clearely demonstrated by you is not to make them seuerall for all succeeding times The Elders or Ministers after the seuen were chosen dealt with the Church stocke Act. 11. and yet our bishops or ministers claime not this care from the Deacons To the Minor The worde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is not meete they doe not say we are insufficient we may deriue the care vpon others hauing extraordinarie affaires to doe for the whole Church They were able to doe it but it was vnmeete for them to bee in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 daily ministration It is vnmeete for a king to be a common souldier and yet he not insufficient to beare armes The argument doth holde he is insufficient ergo vnmeete è contrario the conuersion is not good The 4. Demonstration If the Ministeries of the worde be perfect without the Deacon Demonstration then he may not intermeddle in preaching of the worde where there is no neede of him but it is so Ephes 4.11 v. ergo Out of this fabulous conditional proposition If c. it followeth Remonstrance there are diuersities of ministeries of the worde and all
handes or the censures of the Church inflicted in or since the Apostles time by or vnder the authoritie of those that themselues are no ministers but in all other respectes are meere lay men and but annuall or biennall officers in the Church If they cannot shewe it let them for euer hereafter holde their peace and confesse it to bee in trueth a deuise of mans braine which they woulde seeme so much to detest in Church gouernment The 1. Demonstration That which our Sauiour Christ refused ruling and gouerning the Church Demonstration and teaching the Church that is not lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person to doe but Christ refused to diuide the inheritance Luk. 12.14 Ergo Ecclesiasticall persons may not iudge in ciuill matters The syllogisme is to be concluded newe againe Remonstrance here are foure termini foure termes in three quarters of a yeere One conclusion is Ergo ecclesiasticall persons may not iudge in ciuill causes another should be Ergo ecclesiasticall persons may not diuide lande or inheritance Amphor a caepit institui currente rota sic vrceus exit To the Maior The Maior is to be denied all that our Sauiour refused euery of vs may not refuse he because he came to be a mediatour betweene God and man would not become a common diuider and iudge of euery secular cause of title of land who made me c. neither my heauenly father sent me to that end neither haue I commission from thy brother to sende thee into the moietie of the possession Besides if he had intermedled in the matters of the common weale it would haue strengthened the conceipte that he sought an earthly kingdome and to dispossesse the Romanes To reason from Christes refusal is the refuse of all good reason à non facto ad ius Christ woulde not or did not answere Pilate in iudgement must we therefore conclude Ergo at the tribunall of a Iudge it is at our discretion to answere or not to speake Christ did not condemne the woman taken in the acte of adulterie shall not therefore officers Ecclesiasticall condemne any such sinner To the Minor Christ refused to diuide the inheritance it was because hee woulde not vse the authoritie that hee had as Lorde of Heauen and earth when he came as a seruant not because either a Christian magistrate or minister shoulde after his example lay aside all authoritie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 who hath appointed me emplieth rather that if he had bene appointed by both the parties he might haue done it and so may any minister arbitrate and compounde a controuersie ciuill that is committed vnto him If any Christians may be iudges of ciuill matters 1. Cor. 6. why may not some ministers in some ciuill matters If then hee may whome the Church appointeth nay whome two priuate men consent vpon though he be a person ecclesiasticall may not the Christian Soueraigne Prince much more commit a ciuill cause vnto them and they lawfully deale in it Or if it will be saide they may not so deale in causes ciuill delegated vnto them is then the sinne hereof in him who delegateth or who is delegated or in both But I neede not wade further into this matter I haue spoken something to it afore More authoritie ciuill then is delegated vnto them no Byshop hath may haue or doeth claime in this Realme and therefore except they will impugne this point their labour is superfluous By the way I will propounde this vnto them If all ciuill rule and authoritie bee denied to persons Ecclesiasticall as in it selfe impious howe may they rule their wiues children and housholde which is oeconomicall power and therefore ciuill as ciuill is opposite to ecclesiasticall Likewise howe may they cast their accompts receiue their rentes c. Nay when they are rubbed with their laye Elders and can no where finde them then they say they are not lay but Ecclesiasticall persons because they haue imposition of handes If they bee therefore so to bee accompted Countrey poyson then howe may they lawfully euen in the yeere of their Eldership be also ciuill magistrates as Sheriffes Iustices of peace maisters of their companies counsellours Syndicks and what not though most ciuill as dayly experience teacheth where that discipline is in vre Belike their assertions and rules are made onely against byshoppes not against themselues The 2. Demonstration That which was forbidden to the Apostles Demonstration is vnlawful for ecclesiastical officers but such dominiō was forbiddē Luk. 22.28 which is to rule ciuilly Ergo. That which was forbidden c. is vnlawfull Remonstrance But ambition tyranny contention for absolute seigneurial and ciuil authoritie was forbidden not a modest either ciuill or ecclesiastical superiority ergo to be ambitious contentious c. is vnlawfull In that here he applieth that of Luke to ciuill rule hee cleareth our Bishoppes from the daunger of it in exercising anie authoritie Ecclesiasticall This Argument is answered before The 3. Demonstration If necessarie dueties are to bee left rather then our duetie in the Church Demonstration then may not a Church-officer deale in ciuill iurisdiction but the former is true for a man may not burie his father Luc. 6.59 Ergo I denie the sequele of the Antecedent Remonstrance albeit some corporall or bodily offices which duetie biddeth to be done may vpon Christes commaundement be left vndone yet this is no barre to ministers and preachers of the Gospel to deale in any necessarie ciuill cause And how is it proued that no ciuill iurisdiction may stand with doing of his Church duetie There is none of themselues but they can be content to be executors to a wealthy widow or such like being no more afraid of it then they are to burie them To the Assumption Your quotation should be the 9. of Luke the meaning of which place is All Christians must lay aside all impedimentes and hinderaunces that may drawe them from comming to Christ but some ciuill authoritie amongst Christians is rather a furtherance What consequence cal ye this A man may not bury his own father rather then not follow Christ or if Christ otherwise encharge him Ergo a minister that liueth in a Christian common wealth may not lawfully haue a branch of commission from the prince for ciuil iurisdiction The 4. Demonstration If he that hath an office must attend on his office Demonstration then may hee not intermeddle with another office But the first is true Rom. 12.7 Ergo not with ciuill iurisdiction He may not intermeddle without lawfull calling or vocation Remonstrance yet the connexion hath no sequele Doe you not see some that haue two offices looke neere inough to both This will roaue at temporall men as well as at ecclesiasticall S. Paul disputeth of diligence in our function not of diuersitie of functions which diuerse functions may concurre in one See the answere to the first thus I retort against your selues He that
hath an office may not intermeddle with another Retortion A Pastor hath an other office in the Church then his Presidentship in their Eldership Ergo A pastor may not intermeddle in the Consistorie or Eldership The 5. Demonstration As the Souldier is in warfare Demonstrat so is the Church-officer in ruling of the church but the souldier entangleth not himselfe with things of this life which place Cyprian alleadgeth against a minister that became an executour of his friends will Ergo Church-officers not with things of this life To the Maior The Maior holdeth wherein the proportion is to be held Remonstrance for readines and expedition To the Minor The souldier is not to be a pragmatical fellow in other worldly affaires 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 No more the Diuine or preacher to be a worldling As for the place of Cyprian lib. 1. epi. 9. it may serue any of your elders that would encomber thēselues eyther with that or any other troublesome execution yet it is spoken of a tutorship or Gardianship which was by the Romane law more troublesome and lesse beneficial then an executorship and often times very dangerous to the state of the Tutor The 6. Demonstration Thinges of contrarie qualities cannot concurre Demonstrat The gouernment of the Church and common weale are so for they are both next speciall members of one generall the one spirituall the other temporall the one for the soule the other for the bodie Ergo To the Maior Things of contrary qualities may concurre in vno subiecto Remonstrance in one subiect not in extremities of degrees but remissiuely not in intenso gradu but the Maior is the contradiction of the Minor where you say they are speciall members of one general c. I take your meaning and not your wordes things desparated are not verifiable one of another or one of these two differences are not coincident one vpon another True it is ciuill gouernment is not Ecclesiasticall nor Ecclesiasticall ciuill Ergo say you these cannot meete in one This is most false for Morall vertues are not intellectuall nor intellectuall morall Ergo shal it follow none shall haue them both they may be in vno subiecto communi adequato not proprio Occonomie is not policie nor policie Oeconomie Ergo none can gouerne his house and priuate wealth and the common wealth also This is also false As for the addition of your Minor the one c. Ecclesiasticall gouernment is not onely spirituall which concerneth the conscience inwardly but Christian magistracie is also spirituall concerning the visible Church The other temporall It is not onely temporal vnlesse ye meane amongst the Church spiritual gouernment respecteth principally the soule not onely the soule Temporal gouernment not onely the body but secondarily toucheth the conscience and soule vnlesse you can fayne a body without a soule Here is your errour you doe not vnderstand that Christ doeth gouerne by the magistrate and minister both spiritually and externally howbeit by himselfe onely spiritually which doeth plunge you in this Turkish errour The 7. Demonstration If the whole gouernement of the Churche in particular office Demonstra and in the whole Eldershippe bee of great weight then may not a Churche officer intermedle in anie other calling But the first is true Ergo the second If you meane your imaginable Eldershippe Remonstrance and offices of your owne creation vpon your owne surmise you may conclude what you list if you meane pastoral eldership and our rightfull officers the sequele of the antecedent may iustly be denied For if the Church-gouernment be neuer so weighty yet it is not diminished by laying on the commission of some ciuill authoritie deriued especially from the supremacie of the prince Let my reason march vpon you thus If their Eldership ouer all mens doctrine and manners be too ponderous a weight for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 certaine priuate men artisans and plowe men and others for to beare then may they wel forbeare But the former is true Ergo the later The 8. Demonstration If the Apostles were vnsit for two offices both ecclesiasticall Demonstration then is the best church-gouernor vnfit for two the one of the common wealth the other of the Church But the first is true Act 6.2 Ergo This Antecedent commeth to this summe Remonstrance If the Apostles were vnfit to be Deacons and ministers then is no Christian or the best gouernour for two more different offices vnfit First the Apostles were not vnfitte for it but it for the Apostles Secondly the text speaketh not of vnfitnesse or insufficiencie but of inconueniencie or vnmeetnesse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thirdly though it were vnmeete for the Apostles to leaue the ministration of the worde and to minister vnto tables because other might be founde who were meete for that place Neuerthelesse they beyng Apostles and extraordinary men might at their discretion relinquish one office and exercise another It must not necessarily follow hereupon that none being Ecclesiasticall men may beare a ciuil office amongst Christians and for Christian men To the Assumption That is denied to be expresly in the text But let the argument be drawne indifferently for vs both Either you account those two offices of Deaconrie and ministerie greater or lesse then a ciuill office and Ecclesiasticall all in one If greater why then you see that successiuely for the commoditie of the Church the Apostles vsed both If lesse howe holdeth your argument from the lesse to the greater or from the greater to the lesse sith with you the least Ecclesiasticall officer for the soule is greater then any ciuil officer for the bodie But if your reason be thus One man may not beare two hie offices both of great importance Ergo he may not beare one ecclesiastical office another ciuil the one of great the other of lesse credit The reason doth bende against your selues the Apostles did exercise one office of greater another of lesse weight for the well ordering of the Churche in their owne person For where haue you proued that they did cleane relinquish and put off the same Sith Saint Paul was carefull for collection and distribution of almes 1. Cor. 16. cap. Ergo an Ecclesiasticall person may haue in remissis gradibus both authorities in a Christian Common wealth which neither is nor ought to be secluded from the Church Goe and reconcile your selfe with your brother that writ so absurdly and confusedly de Politia Ciuili ecclesiastica for he is directly against you herein The 9. Demonstration That which was intollerable in the Papists in vs is vnlawful Demonstrat To beare both swords was intollerable in them Ergo in vs. To the Minor To beare both swords for the Q. or Prince that is Remonstrance to receiue as well temporall as spirituall iurisdiction from and for God and the Prince is not intollerable neither repugnant to the worde To vsurpe Christes office or to vsurpe
supreme ciuil power iure diuino as certaine Bishops of Rome haue done and claime or to place themselues in Princes thrones that is vnlawfull You can neuer shewe any such resemblance betwixt a Bishop being a Iustice of peace or counseller and the Popes vsurped authoritie claimed as due vnto him The 10. Demonstration If it be lawful for an Ecclesiastical man to exercise the office of a ciuil magistrate Demonstrat then è contra for the ciuill magistrate to exercise the office of an Ecclesiastical person but the later is vnlawful ergo the former The one is not as lawfull as the other Remonstrance though vpon a lawfull calling I see no reason why a ciuill magistrate may not exercise c. But where the example of the one is more frequent then the example of the other there it may seeme more lawful for the one then for the other It was lawfull for Samuel to kill Agag which was the office of Saul but not lawfull for Saul to offer sacrifice which was the office of Samuel The office of the ciuil magistrate may by commission or deriuation of power be committed to whom best pleaseth him not è contra The reason is the ciuill gouernment is a matter of accident not of the essence of the Ministerie I see no refusal you can make of this absurditie Absurditie of the Demonstrator if you so deeme it If a ciuill man may exercise the office of an Ecclesiasticall person then may an Ecclesiasticall man much rather execute the office of a ciuil person for that is but an accessorie thing to the principall office which hee beareth But a ciuil man may be an Elder that is an Ecclesiasticall officer and the most honourable may not refuse without disdaine of God as you say Ergo the Ecclesiastical person may beare the office of a ciuil magistrate The 11. Demonstration Demonstrat They may not entangle themselues with worldly affaires Can. aposto c. 80. but Ecclesiastical He must commodum se exhibere vsibus Ecclesiasticis Remonstrance so that hee may best serue for the vses and seruices of the Church Or so that one be not an impediment to another The 12. Demonstration or Allegation Demonstrat None of the clergie shall receiue charges of those who are vnder age Conc. Calcedon ca. 3. 7. or be steward to noblemen or receiue any secular honour That is Remonstrance none of the Clergie shall take the tutorship of any or make a confusion of callings and functions otherwise the Canon carieth no sense The 13. Demonstration Demonstrat or Allegation The Bishops shall onely attend to prayer 4 Conc. Carth. ca. 20. and preaching and reading The wordes are Episcopus nullam rei familiaris curam ad se reuocet Remonstrance Or he shal be so employed vnlesse vpon lawful commaund and calling His housholde cares may not make him forget his charge yet hee must haue care thereof bene praeesse propriae domui as S. Paul teacheth But doe you thinke this Canon barreth you from prouiding for your household affaires or to be masters in your owne houses The 14. Allegation or Demonstration Caluin Institut lib 4. cap. 11. sect 9. bringeth diuers reasons to prooue that Bishops may neither take nor vsurpe any ciuil office Demonstrat Caluin bringeth them Remonstrance but you can not bring forth the reason but like god Mercury in the high way point which way they go but vtter nothing There is neuer an one of his reasons concludent to proue it simply vnlawfull but by way of that which may happen by it The 15. Allegation or Demonstration Beza confess cap. 5. Sect. 32. 42. sheweth the distinguishment of offices Demonstrat and how the father 's dealt in things of this life and how the Apostles punishments were extraordinarie Ergo is not so cleare on your side Remonstrance for if the Apostles censures were extraordinarie how dare you draw some of them into consequence If giuing of aduise in all matters of warre and peace and in determinations iudiciall be matters of this life then Beza himselfe vseth ciuil authoritie as much as any one Ecclesiasticall man in any reformed Church in Europe The 16. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat When both offices meete in one the one hindereth the other Martyr 13. R◠That is when the ciuil power is excessiue or illimitable Remonstrance The same Martyr out of Chrysostome saith The Gospel was giuen to stablish the policie and gouernment of Princes and why not the policie of Princes for the Gospel The 17. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat There is no man so wise holy able to exercise ciuil ecclesiastical power Bucer 5. Matth. That is in plenitudine potestatis Remōstrance The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator It countenanceth and mainteineth religion Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is the Papists reason which Caluin confuteth Inst lib. 4. cap. 11. sect 9. for the two swords The reason is no worse whose reason soeuer it be Remonstrance with reply but to two swordes it serueth not there is one indepriuable authoritie to beare the sword The 2. obiection of the Demonstrator It is good to punish vice by corporall punishment that the word may be obeyed Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is good to preach the word that they may obey their Prince for conscience sake May the magistrate therefore preach We must doe good agreeable to our calling Yea therefore it is good Remonstrance with reply being granted frō the Christian magistrat to punish sinne corporally as for the wanderment of your instance if the magistrate be so called he may preach obedience in his owne person and he that inflicteth corporall punishment doe no more then may stand with his calling The 3. obiection of the Demonstrator Eli and Samuel were both Priestes Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator They were extraordinarie and so was Eliahs killing of Baals priestes and Christs whipping of buyers c. God separated them in Moses and Aaron Cohanim in Hebrew signifieth princes and priests Remonstrance with reply and therefore that is doubtfull Though the men were extraordinarie the offices are not alwayes so but they leaue the vse of corporall infliction to punish Atheisme and Idolatrie and to augment godlinesse It is ordinarie with you to answere all thinges by extraordinarie when you can hit of none other all the old Testament is full of such examples of Ecclesiasticall men who exercised ciuill power yea not being delegated by any superiour Magistrate and therefore seemeth ordinarie that falleth out so often and in so many The 4. Obiection of the Demonstrator Peter killed Ananiah Demonstrat Ergo Bshops may haue prisons Answere of the Demonstrator It was with the worde onely If they can doe like Peters example wil serue If not then it is extraordinarie Hierom epistola ad Demetriadem
faultes if the persons did not like you I knowe your disposition where I dwell The 4. Demonstration That which is contrary to naturall affection and worketh the trembling of the very heart Demonstration may not be done but in extremitie So is excommunication Ergo. Why are not you afraid in your owne cause sith many of your crue stand excommunicate Remonstrance and yet like prophane Esau or Lucian the dogge make a ieste of it if you esteeme it not because Bishops doe inflict it we will and may vpon better ground contemne yours that lay elders determine whensoeuer you set vp shoppe The 2. Assertion of the Demonstration Excommunication must be done by the Elders Demonstration not by one man The 1. Demonstration That which Christ commaunded to bee done by the Church may not be done by one man but Christ commaunded so 18. Mat. 15. Ergo. What force is in your Maior Remonstrance The Church must pray for princes Ergo no one man may Christ commaunded at one time the Apostles to preach Ergo all must preach together and no one of them To the Minor This is most absurde for then hee commaunded to be done and ouerdone that is both done and vndone viz. both by the Presbyterie and then by the whole Congregation for so you teache If in those wordes Tell the Church the Church is the Eldership then the rest of the Congregation hath not any warrant to giue consent or to deale in it which else-where you require For when the Church that Christ committed it vnto haue once determined the matter what haue those to doe further that were not meant nor thought of by him And if hee that tels the Eldershippe any thing telles it to the Church what neede any moe bee acquainted with that belonges not to them For if they be of the Church they knowe it already Et qui certus est amplius non debet certiorari if they be not then let them pacifie themselues but if the whole Congregation be theremeant then hath not the Eldershippe therein authoritie giuen by that place And if the Church be the Eldershippe then the one is the other idem numero conuertuntur so that he that is not of the Eldership is none of the Church To auoide these absurdities they will say the Eldershippe is called the Church because it hath herein the authoritie of the Church This is strange Shall they bee the Church it selfe that haue herein the Churches authoritie then he is a king that in some thing hath the kings authoritie Well let it goe Those that with vs doe excommunicate haue the Churches authoritie also and let them shewe a reason out of the worde of God why the Church may not giue her authoritie to one aswell as to many If this bee one of your essentiall pointes that the Church cannot giue it to one for shame finde some Scripture for it If you say that the Church being a collectiue must needes bee more then one true but yet one or a fewe may haue the authoritie of many committed to them as one man may bee Syndic or Legate for a whole common weale If it cannot bee represented but by a number then two may serue else shewe by howe many and both of these by Scripture or confesse your gouernement not to be grounded on Scripture And when such authoritie is giuen to many shew that any thing may bee done except euery of them agree for if you say as you practise that the most voyces ouercome the fewer shewe Scripture for that and howe the odde voyce that makes the greater number hath such a power as to make that to bee the determination of the Church which otherwise were not so And if in such case one odde voice perhaps of a very odde fellowe may haue such force why may not a Byshops voyce bee of as great force in this matter where the Church committes it to him That by this place the power generall of excommunication is not established may thus appeare For if this be the very warrant and cōmission that it hath then may none excōmunication proceede in any other matter then vpon priuate offences originally and onely by the same degrees that there bee propounded otherwise the commission were violated That an Eldershippe as is fancied shoulde haue that power here giuen to them cannot be entended for if Christ had ordeyned them afore this time then their authorities whatsoeuer were no doubt giuen withall vnto them but wee reade no such thing The pollicie of the Iewish Synagogue had still his continuance and Christ had not yet setled the Church which hee was in gathering That by these wordes at this time it was erected it coulde not be for neither were the officers afore ordeyned of which it consisteth viz. of Elderly doctor and Pastor vndoctorly and vnpastorally Elder and of deacons nor yet were they here ordeyned For the Apostles could neuer out of this single worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Church haue picked this great varietie and distinction of officers and their authoritie which they had neuer heard of afore But Christ speaketh hereof to them as of a thing knowen whereunto in like case resort might bee had But if it were here appointed consisting of Christ and his Apostles then was Christes headshippe of the Church taken from him and hee ranged with his Apostles as his collegues in the Eldershippe Then also must they either say that Christ was not perpetuall president in such eldership but as it fell to his lotte or choise as they now practise in Synodes and conference albeit the Pastor in their Elderships be the President perpetuall or they must haue a perpetuall president in all their Synodicall assemblies to be conformable to this being the best and first It will also hereof followe if your Elders mind to be successors of the Apostles in an eldership here they must be ministers of the worde and Sacraments as the Apostles and all the first Elders were Then also cannot your Eldership haue any other parts of authoritie then Christ at this their institution here bestowed vpon them as namely you must abandon ordinations depositions and other gouernment Lastly if he ment to erect an office or authoritie that afore was not the wordes would haue bene praeceptiue and dispositiue for such purpose not imperatiue commaunding onely a course to be holden before such a tribunall as was not afore erected or heard of for it woulde thus or in some like forme haue beene conceiued let such and such Church gouernours bee erected to whome you may alwayes tell it If therefore to auoyde these inconueniences it wil be said that he made allusion to the Iewish Sanhedrim or College of 72. in vse with them and wel knowen to them with insinuation that as the Iewes had so hee would haue established in his Church which should after be gathered of the Iewes and Gentiles Besides that it is likely the name of Sanhedrim would haue