the Church And for their Holiness I have spoken to that before and surely it is but like their neighbours And for their Miracles I have given you a taste of them from Loreto and beside others do claim that mark as well as they Yea the Turks produce Miracles and the Protestants do the like and others as the Quakers the like and the Baptists can say of a truth that God hath done for and amongst them some things which have exceeded the course of Nature And so their Miracles will not more prove them a Church than the Miracles of others will prove the contrary unless they can prove the others to be Illusions And that they have not the mark of Unity is evident if History may be heeded for saith my Author there is an hundred Sects of Monks and Fryars amongst them and some of them so divided as they burnt one another for matters of Religion And for different Opinions there are no less than three hundred See Fox Act. and Monument p. 260. and Willit in his Book called Tetrastilon Papis I know the Papists do make a great deal of noise about their Pastoral Succession as if they could derive it from man to man up to the Apostle Peter But I find the learned Protestants making it a great Question whether ever Peter was Bishop of Rome or not And Jerom is said to have seen some old Books which shew that Narcissus ruled the Roman Church when Paul saluted him and his Family in his Epistle to the Romans No small contention is there likewise among the Learned Whether Linus or Clement were the second Bishop of Rome So that this Pastoral Succession the Papists pretend to meets with shrewd Objections in the very first and second person of that Line Against the uninterrupted continuance of their pretended Succession many things are objected as That there were sometimes three and sometimes two Popes and that for more than twenty years time together so that no man could tell where the true Pastoral Authority lay And then comes in that strange disaster of Joan the female Pope who for almost three years cut the chain of this pretended Succession This thing is famous in History Lastly Although the Papists could prove a continued Succession of persons claiming the Title of Universal Bishop yet this would not justifie them all to be the Pastors of Christ's Church For these two Rules are given us even by the Antients 1. That Peter left his Innocency hereditary as well as his Seat and that he which hath not the one as well as the other is not Peter's Successor 2. That it is not the Chair but the Doctrine that maketh a Bishop Now 3dly add but Paul's Rule in this matter 1 Tim. 3. and Titus 1. and then I am bold to affirm That many Popes of Rome were not the true Successors of Peter in Pastoral Authority For I find it laid to the charge of divers Popes that they were Drunken-Whoremongers Theeves given more to War than Christ rooted in all unspeakable sin furious men prophane Scoffers of Christ Incestuous persons Murderers Poysoners of their own Parents and Kindred open Sodomites or Buggerers Blasphemers incorrigible Hereticks Enchanters callers upon the Devil to help them to play at Dice Drinkers of the Devil's Health and Traitors to Princes These things are so notorious and evidently true of the Popes of Rome as that the Papists do not deny them T. B. End to Controvers and the Author of the Seven Queries as you may see in part before Yea Bernard was not a little moved with the wickedness of the Popes of Rome when he called them Tyrants Defrauders Raveners Traytors Darkness of the World Wolves and Devils And can we think that Succession to be good which is derived from Devils I need say no more See for the proof of all that I have said these Books Fox Act. Monument Willit Synops Prediaux's Introduct The Tenth Reason The present Assemblies of Baptized Believers and they only are the true visible Church of Jesus Christ Therefore the present Papal Church of Rome is not the Church of Christ The Explanation of this Reason or Argument THis Reason or Argument is not so to be understood as if we do shut all men out of Heaven who are not Members of our Church No verily This is the express Doctrine of the Papists for they say that out of the Church is no Salvation and by Church they mean only those that adhere to the Papal Church of Rome and hereupon they teach expresly and so do some Protestants also That without Baptism or the desire of Baptism c. none can be saved And therefore it is that they give power to Midwives to baptize Children sometimes between the Womb and the World That which we teach is this That the ordinary way appointed for men to receive Salvation in is The preaching of Repentance and Remission of sins to all Nations in the Name of Jesus Christ and the administration of Baptism as a pledge thereof to all that give acceptance to these Glad-tydings and upon this account this Ministration is called The Baptism of Repentance for the remission of sins And we do teach as a most infallible Doctrine That without profession of Faith manifestation of Repentance and being baptized with Water in the Name of Jesus Christ c. no person can be orderly admitted into the Church or Kingdom of God on Earth And that therefore it concerns every man living to years of understanding and having the Gospel tendred to him only to look for Salvation this way as he will answer it before the Lord for contemning God's ordinary way and presuming to challenge the Grace of Eternal Life in a way of his own devising Nevertheless we do not hence conclude That all persons shall be damned that seek not Life in this way For first No Infant can seek for it in the way which the Gospel proposeth Life to men of years Yet surely it is a most cruel Doctrine to say that any Infants dying in their infancy shall be damned in Hell because as one very well said God will not damn any persons for that which they cannot help Again in Rom. 1st and 2d chapters Paul teacheth That if the sons of men act forth themselves in a way of Love Fear Obedience and Reverence to their Creator according to the means of Light vouchsafed to them that this shall be as much as shall be required of them in the day when God shall judge the secrets of all men by Jesus Christ for God will not gather where he hath not strewed at which time God will not judge them by the Law that never had it Howbeit let all that have it I mean his written Law expect to be judged by it And therefore though we will not presume to judge of the final state of this or that Society of men professing conscionably this or that Form of Worship but leave that wholly to the
Lord yet we will not cease humbly to beg of all such persons in the Name of Jesus Christ that they having his Law would carefully observe the terms whereupon Life is held forth unto them and become such glad receivers of the Word as is mentioned Acts 2. 41. Then they which gladly received the Word were baptized and the same day were added to the Church about three thousand souls The Argument thus explained I shall now endeavour to make it good The Tenth Argument maintained That the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers and no other present Assemblies of men are the true Church of Christ I prove thus Either the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers or else some other Assemblies now in the practice of Infant Baptism must be the true Church of Christ because without Baptism the Papists say and say truly too there can be no true Church of Christ at this day Now these two wayes of Baptizing only I mean of Water-Baptism is pretended as necessary in order to a visible Church-state viz. the dipping or baptizing persons upon their personal profession of Faith as the present Assemblies of the Baptists do practise or baptizing or rather sprinkling of Infants without personal profession of Faith as the present National Churches do practise For most undoubtedly the true and legitimate claim to this Title of Christ's Church must be found in one of these two Parties And that no National Assembly gathered together by Pedo-baptism can fairly claim this Title I have shewed before whither now I refer my Reader And for the evincing yet further that the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers are the true visible Church of Christ I thus argue They and they only have the true Ecclesiastical Marks of truly Antient Primitive or Apostolical Gathering Constitution and Government Therefore they and they only are the true Church of Jesus Christ These three points namely Gathering Constitution and Government I take if right to be the infallible Marks of a true Church And that the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers and they only have them will be evident to him that considereth what they were at first and how they agree with what in these respects is only found in the Assemblies of the Baptized Congregations The truly Antient Primitive and Apostolical Gathering in respect of the first means used in order thereunto was the preaching Repentance and Remission of sins or the Gospel unto every Creature and upon their conviction to command them as from the Lord to be baptized every one of them in the Name c. as appears Matth. 28. 19 20. Mark 16. 15 16. Acts 2. 38. Acts 8. 37. Acts 10. 47 48. And herein onely the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers do closely follow Christ's Primitive Ministers The Primative and Apostolical Gathering of the Church of Christ in respect of the subjects gathered were only such as through the virtue and prevalency of the Word preached or made known did give a demonstration of their Regeneration by the profession of Faith and manifestation of Repentance and being dipped in Water in the Name of the Father c. For the proof whereof I appeal to those several Scriptures alledged against the gathering of Christ's Church of such persons as of whose Regeneration no demonstration is or can be given answerable to what the Scripture doth require in order to persons admission into the Kingdom of God or Church on Earth And secondly I appeal to the practice of the Apostles acting in pursuance of that Commission given them in that behalf And thirdly I do appeal to the Churches themselves which were gathered by the Apostles as they are described to us in these several Texts following These Texts do shew to the diligent Reader that here is such things spoken of this numerous Church as is necessarily exclusive of any Infants being admitted into their Society as to participate of any Church Ordinance And the like will appear to the Scripture-searching Soul in all those other Churches as the respective places will sufficiently convince I have it freely granted under the hand of a learned Clergy-man That Churches at the first were gathered only as we affirm but he tells me That when Persecution ceased God took in all Nations or whole Nations which hitherto he hath not proved The Church at Jerusalem Acts 1. 15 21 22. Acts 2. 41 42. Heb. 5 6 8 Chapters The Church at Samaria Acts 8. 12 13 14 15 16 17. The Church at Cesaria Acts 10. 33 44 45 46 47 48. The Church at Antioch Acts 11. 20 21 23 26. Acts 13. 12. with Acts 9. 38. The Church at Philippi Acts 16. 12 13 14 15 31 32 33 34 40. Phil. 1. 6 7 8 9 10. The Church at Thessalonica Acts 17. 1 2 3 4. 2 Thess 1. 3 10 11. The Church at Colosse Coloss 1. 4 5 6. Coloss 2. 10 11 12. The Church at Corinth Acts 8. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8. 1 Cor. 1. 2. The Church at Rome Acts 28. 24. Rom. 6. 3 14. The Church at Ephesus Acts 19. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. Ephes 1. 13 14 15. The Church at Galatia Gal. 3. 26 27 28 29. Gal. 3. 1 2 3 4 5 6. These Scriptures duely considered shew That all those famous Churches were gathered in a way contrary to that of the National Churches and consonant to the way of the present Baptized Churches And be it here observed that no man ever yet could shew by any Record of such Authority as may suffice to be a Foundation of Faith in this case that by the Apostles any were ever admitted into the Church in their infancy Wherefore look well upon the Scripture and then upon the gathering of the Churches of the Baptists and you will find that they and they only have the true Antient Primitive or Apostolical-mark of Church-gathering Of CONSTITUTION THey onely can be truly constituted that are rightly gathered which the Baptized Churches onely are The Primitive Constitution of the Church consisted principally in these two heads viz. Free-fellowship in the Doctrine of the Apostles Acts 2. 40 41 42 47. Job 1. 11 12 13. Act. 17. 4. 1 Thess 1. 5 6 9. 1 John 1. 3. Rev. 22. 17. No force of a worldly nature was used in the begetting or continuing her Fellowship for it was a mutual consent The second thing pertaining to the Constitution consists in the disposing of her Members to those places to which they are fitted to serve in the body 1 Cor. 12. 27. with vers 18. 28. Acts 6. 3 4. Now that the present Assemblies of the Baptized Believers have this form of Constitution in both respects is evident to all that will take knowledge of their Constitution Of GOVERNMENT THe true Ancient Primitive and Apostolical Government of the Church was only Spiritual and did recide not in the Pastors apart from the Church but in the Pastors together with the Church yet so as that those to whom the Church hath committed her
THE BAPTIST AGAINST THE PAPIST OR The SCRIPTURE and ROME in Contention about the SUPREAM SEAT of JUDGMENT in CONTROVERSIES of RELIGION Together with Ten Arguments or Reasons discovering the present Papal Church of Rome to be no true Church of Christ WHEREIN It is also evinced That the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers are the true Church of Jesus Christ By THO. GRANTHAM a Prisoner for Truths sake Luke 16. 29 31. They have Moses and the Prophets let them hear them If they hear not Moses and the Prophets neither will they be perswaded though one should rise from the dead Ezek. 20. 18 19. But I said unto their children Walk ye not in the Statutes of your fathers c. I am the Lord your God walk in my Statutes and keep my Judgments and do them Joh. 12. 48. The Word that I have spoken the same shall judge you in the last day LONDON Printed in the Year 1663. THE AUTHOR TO THE READER Courteous Reader NOt because I envy those of the Papal Church or desire them any evil Not that I desire they should be exposed to a suffering condition for matters of Religion or that they should be denied any liberty in that respect which I desire my self nor for any other prejudice God knoweth do I publish this small Treatise But because I judge my self concerned at this time to give my Testimony for the Truth against some Papal Tenents for divers causes As first I am at this time under restraint and though nothing hath been laid to my charge yet it is rumour'd by some that I am a Papist yea in this place of my Confinement have I been told to my face by some of the Protestant Clergie that I am a Roman Jesuite And indeed this is an ordinary aspersion which hath been cast upon those in general to whom I am related upon a religious account viz. That we are all Papists or will turn Papists c. and this not so much to our personal prejudice as to the dishonour of that antient way of Truth by us professed Secondly A more particular occasion of the publication of this Treatise proceeded from the Papists themselves in sending Seven Queries to the Baptized Congregations in this County commonly called Anabaptists To which through the importunity of some Friends I formed a brief Answer little thinking I confess that so much contention would have risen thereupon as since I have met with And I likewise confess that the undertaking is such as that it requireth a more fit Instrument than my self to manage it Nevertheless I hope I may say that hitherto what hath come to pass in this contest hath fallen out rather to the furtherance of the Truth for which cause I have thought fit to offer it to the perusal of others so much of it I mean as I conceive is at present needful and that is the substance of what hath passed about the means whereby we must decide or resolve Controversies in Religion It now wants but few months of a year since I sent my final Answer containing a Review of all that had been said in way of Answer to the Queries before in which I produced the Testimony of divers Antient Dictors as concurring with what I had therein spoken and as being directly opposite to my Antagonist But I have heard of late that he is gone out of this Nation so that I expect no more Reply from him And though for divers Reasons hereafter shewed I have not published the whole Discourse which if need be may in due time be brought to light yet I have thought it meet here to set down all the Seven Queries that so if any Christian of suitable endowments for the Vindication of Truth against the opposition that lyeth in the said Queries shall think fit to lay forth his Talent in that Service he may take hold of this occasion wherein to do it for the Queries were not directed to any particular person however I shall joyn to each Query one Antiquery which may serve at this present to blunt the edge of them as they carry an opposition to the Truth The QUERIES The ANTI-QUERIES Query 1. Antiq. 1. VVHether we are to resolve all Differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God VVHat Differences in point of Religion can you resolve without the written Word of God and whether the written Word of God be a perfect Rule for matters of Religion Query 2. Antiq. 2. How know you precisely what is the true Word of God Whether some Book must not of necessity speak for it self and whether the Scripture doth not best deserve this priviledge And whether it be not a bold presumption to say there are no holy Books but them which we or you have received for such sith those which we have tell us there are other holy Writings which never yet came to our hands nor to yours Query 3. Antiq. 3. How know you that your Copies and Translations of the Bible are the true Word of God since the Original Writings are not come to your hands What Copies and Translations of the Bible have you that are more true than ours and where are the Original Manuscripts of the Prophets and Apostles Qu. 4. Antiq. 4. Where we differ about the sense of the Word by whom must we be tryed the dead Letter cannot explain it self When we differ about the true Church and about the meaning of Authors by whom must we be tryed They cannot speak for themselves more than the Scripture and whether the Scriptures compared together do not explain themselves also whether it be not an opprobrious and ignominious speech for you to call the Scripture a dead Letter and whether the true lovers of the Scripture ever vouchsafed it such ill and indeed improper language Qu. 5. Antiq. 5. What clear Text have you out of Scripture for the procession of the holy Ghost from the Father the Son or for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday or prohibiting Poligamy or Infant-Baptism And whether there be not as clear Texts to prove unwritten Tradition Purgatory and the real Presence Whether the Baptism of the true Church be not one and whether that one be not expresly found in the Scripture And whether the Scripture doth not prohibit all beside that one And whether the Papists have not confessed in many of their Books that Infant-Baptism is not found in nor grounded upon the Scripture and then whether it be not clear that all the Texts which speak of Baptism do not prohibit Infant-Baptism Also whether Joh. 15. 26. and 14. 26. and 16. 7. be not clear Texts that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son Also whether 1 Cor. 7. 1 2 3. do not as much prohibit one man for having two Wives and one woman for having two Husbands and whether it do not clearly prohibit the latter Also whether there be any that hold the first day under the notion of a Sabbath
aside the Commandments of God you hold the Tradition of men THO. GRANTHAM THE BAPTIST AGAINST THE PAPIST The FIRST PART sheweth the SCRIPTURE and ROME to be in Contention about the SUPREAM SEAT of JUDGMENT in Controversies of RELIGION THe first of all Controversies is founded upon this Query What is the authoritative Judge of Controversies And indeed till there be some agreement in this point there can be no expectation of any fruitful issue of any Controversie Now all Controversies amongst the sons of men are reduceable to one of these two heads namely things humane or things divine things precisely pertaining to this life or things which only pertain to that which is to come concerns of a secular consideration or concerns of a religious consideration And according to the nature of these Controversies such ought the Judge for decision thereof to be Concerning this Judge of Religious Controversies there are divers opinions Some say that the Light or that of God in Every Man is this only infallible Judge of all Religious Controversies But if this be admitted a multitude of inconveniences must needs follow of which this is not the least That there can be no end of Controversies because if every man have this Judge of all Debates in himself and he aver that what he saith and doth is according to the voice of this Judge or that of God in him no man can take in hand to judge contrary thereunto without becoming the Judge's Judge and so violate the Rule proposed For this opinion refers not doubtful matters to that of God in some men or a select number of men but to that of God in every man There is another Opinion which saith That amongst all men which pretend to own Christ and challenge to themselves the title of his Church and yet do deny each other to have an interest in that title That amongst all such parties of the sons of men the only infallible and authoritative Judge of their Controversies about Religion is the LORD Himself as he speaketh by his Spirit in the holy Scriptures together with right Reason or thus which is all one The Apostles and Prophets as they speak in their holy Writings are the onely infallible authoritative Judge in these Controversies Yet three things are in this Opinion allowed first That the living voice of the Pastors with the Church in their respective Ages wherin they live are of great importance in order to the terminating strife in the Church as a Church Secondly That Records of Antiquity are of some usefulness for the resolving some Controversies and for the better discovery of some Errors yet not so absolutely necessary but that the Church may sufficiently resolve her Controversies without them Thirdly That there is a Judgment of Science to be allowed every man as touching all things which he chuseth or refuseth in matters of Religion to be used with moderation and discreet subjection And this is the Opinion to which for my part I do adhere There is another Opinion which saith That the Papal Church of Rome is the Supream Judge and Catholick Moderatrix of all Disputes in matters of Faith and that All are bound to hear and obey her Voice under pain of Damnation and that the Scriptures as taken in the second Opinion is not the Judge of Controversies Now this is the Opinion which at this time I am to examine which in much seriousness I humbly purpose to do and leave it to the sober consideration of all men And for the better discharge of this duty it is meet we should understand what the Papists mean by the Church of Rome And this I find that under that title they would involve the whole Church of Christ from the Apostles dayes until this present time at least all the Faithful since the time that Paul declares the Roman Church to have been famous as Rom. 1. 8. But this is the very thing denied by us for though we willingly grant that there was a very famous Church at Rome when Paul wrote his Epistle to them yet it followeth not that there is such a Church there now or that all that ever from that time to this have walked in the steps of true Faith must needs be supposed to have been Members of the Roman Church or rather of the Church of Rome so called especially since it was Papal So that in this Controversie they must be content to define the Church of Rome on this wise viz. All that in any Age since Christ was of the same Faith and Practice in things religious which is at this day found in the Papal Church of Rome and those only are the persons of whom the Papal Church of Rome doth consist And indeed this is as much as they can reasonably desire for if those holy men who lived in times past were of a Faith and Practice contradistinct to that which Rome hath now received Then may not the present Papal Church without wrong challenge them to be of their Church As for example Paul who bore witness for Christ at Rome and the Christians there in his dayes was of the Church of Christ at Rome yet we deny that they were any part of the Papal Church of Rome The Church of Rome therefore defined as before I do deny to be the infallible authoritative Judge of all Controversies about matters of Faith or Religion And I do further say That the Scriptures and right Reason as laid down in the second opinion much more deserves to be received for this supream Judge of Controversies than the Papal Church of Rome and that there is not an other Umpire that can so effectually decide the Controversies of Religion which depend between such parties of men as lay claim to the Title of Christ's Church and yet deny each other to have an interest therein And how far forth the truth in this Point hath been evidenced in that pro and con Discourse so far as it relateth to the first of them which hath been occasioned by the writing of the Seven Queries I have before spoken of is here offered to the Consideration of all sober men that profess to own the Glorious Gospel of the blessed God and our Saviour Jesus Christ The first Query of the Seven was this propounded by the nameless Papist PAPIST Whether we are to resolve all differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God BAPTIST To which Question these ensuing Answers were given before I received the Adversaries last Paper which with the Answers thereunto I will transcribe verbatim I say the Answers were That the word Controversies being understood of such Controversies only as depend between those parties of men who deny each other to be the Church that then there is no other way whereby WE can resolve those Controversies but by the assistance of God's Spirit speaking to us through the undoubted Prophets and Apostles and Primitive Churches in the lively Oracles of God the Scriptures of
with it I am sure that work is so clearly for us in this very point that our Adversaries the Calvinists and Calvin denies it to be his St. Aug. and Tertull. are as clear for us and what you bring out of them clearly answered by Bellarm. de Euchar. And you are to know that it is a general rule amongst the Learned that we are to explicate obscure places by those that are clear if we mean to know the Opinion of any Author it being impossible for any man to write so warily but that sometbing may be objected out of him especially if he have writ much as it is our case which may seem contrary to what he expresly teaches And you had need observe this rule in expounding the Scriptures themselves or otherwise you will meet with a thousand absurdities and contradictions Against the Councils you produce that of Constantinople under Constant Copron. as crying down Transubstantiation But this was a factious Meeting never owned for a Council neither by the Greek nor Latine Fathers and expresly condemned in the Nicene Council and the jest is this Mock-Council was so far from condemning Transubstantiation as you affirm that they swore by the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist to abolish the Worship of Images Something should here have been said concerning Bertram who is said to have opposed Transubstantiation but in the transcription of my Third Paper there was an Errata and the Instance is not material so that what is said about him I will expunge in both Papers You say further against the Authority of Councils That they have contradicted each other in their Decrees about the Laityes communicating in one or both kinds But we grant that the Church may vary in Customs of this nature which being indifferent may be altered as she shall think fit according to several circumstances What we deny is that the Church or General Councils ever made contrary Decrees about the belief of any point of Faith It is no wonder that you have a fling against the Pope after you have been so bold with Holy Fathers and General Councils but I must tell you Though many of our Divines hold him infallible when he speaks ex Cathedra as they call it yet is it not the Opinion of all and consequently no Article of our Faith Only we agree in this That for preserving peace in the Church all are bound so far to submit to the Popes Decrees as not to oppose them until a General Council be called from whose Judgment we admit no Appeal What you say of the wicked Lives of some of them is nothing to the purpose for as wicked Caiphas play'd the Prophet so might the Bishops of Rome with the assistance of the Holy Ghost be true interpreters of God's Word for all their wicked lives such Gratia gratis date which are given for the good of others do not argue his Sanctity that hath them To make you a true Prophet I will here cry out What is become of the living voice of the Church since you have done what you can to discredit her by casting all the dirt you can in her face as it is evident unless you will throw out the Holy Fathers and General Councils the Churches Representatives out of the Church BAPTIST I perceive our Judgments differ concerning the living voice of the Church what it is I have told you That I take it for the present Church and her Pastours in those particular Ages wherein they live You take this living voice to be the Decrees of Councils and Books of the antient Fathers And here I cannot but marvel why you should be willing to Appeal to the Books of the Antients and their written Decrees as a living voice and clear way to decide our Controversies and yet appeal from the Books of the Prophets and Apostles as being but dead Letters and senceless Characters Certainly if any Writings now extant may be called the Churches living voice the Holy Scripture doth better deserve that title than any other Nor will it suffice here to object as it is the Papists usual way that our difference is about the Scripture and the Sense thereof c. for the same difference is found amongst us touching the Books and Sense of Councils and Fathers yea I think I may be bold to say That even the Learned are so much divided concerning them in both respects as that they can never be therein reconciled But is it so that the voice of the Fathers c. who only speak in their Writings is a means or way of equal clearing to decide our differences as the voice of a living Judge in a Case of Law amongst men Then what reasonable man can render a reason that the voices of the Prophets and Apostles though only speaking to us in their Books and Decrees may not be appealed to as a clear way to decide our differences Sith all men professing Christianity must confess that the Prophets and Apostles speak with as much Life and Power Certainty and Authority as any that ever writ since their time No-whither now can you turn your selves but to your selves as I have formerly noted and take upon you to be the only living voice that must without controul interpret Fathers Councils and Scriptures too and when you have done sit down as Judge to give Sentence for your selves and against your opposers Well you have assigned us a Judge of Controversies To wit the Fathers and Councils of the Church long ago deceased and this is a clear way you say to agree all But I have noted that it 's a very cloudy way and that because they could not yet agree themselves for they are opposite each to other to this day insomuch as you are utterly unable to reconcile them since as I have shewed you must not make use of the Scripture to that purpose because before the Scripture can have any authority to any purpose according to your Judgment your Councils must deliver it to us as the Word of God which they cannot do till they be found First holy Fathers and Councils of the Church And secondly at unity among themselves and each with himself And I have asked you How you will effect this difficult work To which you Answer First That General Councils have no such Controversies as I talk of Secondly That when there is such difficulty in any one of the Fathers we must look upon the rest what they say and so follow their unanimous consent for say you if we take them singly no doubt they have erred and these errors we know by their dissenting from the rest I answer first That General Councils have erred and that in matters of Faith is undeniable if Records may be credited rather than you As first The Council of Arimi did err so as to conclude for the Arrian Heresie namely That there was a time when Christ was not the Son of God and sure you account that an errour in
their due estimation And saith Origen We have need to bring the Scriptures for witness for our Meanings and Expositions without them have no credit the discussing of our Judgements must be taken ONLY of the Scriptures Thus you see the Fathers were not of your mind that the Readers of their Books should not try them by the Scripture but the contrary and that as we find them consenting to or dissenting from Scripture not one another as you teach accordingly they advise us to believe or not believe them As I have said it is a cloudy way to appeal to Councils and Fathers so you now prove my saying true for I alledged Augustine as being opposite to you and your Church touching the meaning of Matth. 16. Upon this Rock c. and first you tell me I read him not but I must tell you I read him after a Scholar sufficient and though your reading differ something from his yet they both destroy the received Opinion of your Church concerning that Text for if Christ be that Rock as you confess Augustine there teacheth then it cannot be meant positively of Peter and so not consequently of your Popes My quotation out of Chrysostom in Ps 22. you invalidate by telling me that Book was not writ by him And this I find to be the usual way of Learned-men when the passage alledged is clear and convincing then a suspition must be cast upon the Book c. I could instance the best part of a thousand Books Epistles c. which are intituled under the names of the Antient Fathers amongst which as you observe is reckoned the Book of Dynis the Areopagite which I alledged in my Rejoynder And do not these things contribute something towards the proof of my Assertion namely That it is a cloudy way to appeal to Fathers and Councils to decide Controversies in Religion If then your way be cloudy mine must needs be clear unless you can assign a third way opposit to both for undoubtedly there is a clear way to decide Controversies You again prescribe me a way to find the meaning of the Fathers and that is to explicate their obscure places by such as are plain c. But by your leave we can neither know which of their speeches are obscure or plain without some rule whereby to know this And now what can supply this our necessity For example Augustine is sometimes read affirming the Sacrament to be the real Body and Blood of Christ otherwhiles he is read directly opposit to this And how can you or any body else tell which of these sayings is clear or obscure fith none must be permitted the use of his reason by you in this Controversie and how he should judge according to Faith I know not sith you as yet debar us of that by which Faith NOW cometh namely the Doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles as contained in the Scriptures PAPIST Something you would say for this living Voice of the Church you once had required as necessary to resolve Differences in Religion but this signifies nothing in our present Query for after all your shifting I cannot perceive that you make use of her Authority in point of Faith which is our Qu. but only to take up other quarrels by exhorting reproving c. and in this also it seems you will be your own Judge whether she follow Christ or no. Three things you affirm in relation to the Churches Authority 1. That she is to rule her self according to Scripture which no body denies 2. That the Church in former Ages is not to be a Rule for after Ages to rule themselves by because she could not foresee the Controversies that rise up afterwards What if the same Errors be revived now which in their times were condemned is not the Judgment of the Church in those dayes a safe President for us to condemn the same Errors Besides Is it not evident that the Pastors of the Church the nearer they were to Christ's time were the better able to judge of Christ's Doctrine You say 3dly That the Church is to be no Rule for those that are out of her communion A strange Assertion As if a clear light as the Church is in holy Scripture with so many marks to know her by as Unity Sanctity Universality Miracles c. were not a good means for him that gropes in the dark to find out his way Look well upon these marks and you will find them to agree Only to the Roman Catholick Church and to no upstart Congregation and consequently that you ought in all reason to give her the hearing in matters of Faith and to have recourse unto her as to the pillar and ground of Truth 1 Tim. 3. which place you let slip and this under pain of being accounted a Heathen c. Matth. 18. for though this place doth point out chiefly the obedience which Members of the Church owe her in point of Discipline as you say well enough yet hath it no small force in our present Debate since those that will not hear her Voice when she ecchoes out the Voice of God may well be esteemed by her as a Heathen And in your own sence I suppose you will have your proviso That the Church is to be obeyed only when she ruleth according to God's Word of which you will be Judge too So in conclusion all comes to this That you and your spirit must be Judge of all Disputes And then have not I reason to ask again since I or any body else may challenge as large a share in the Spirit and right Reason as you who shall take up the Quarrel And is not my comparison here very pat That there must needs be as great confusion in your Church as in a Kingdom where every one were left to decide his own case This was not the old way as you may see Deut. 17. 8 9. and Malach. 2. 7. which places you had no mind to take notice of and yet you charge me for letting pass your Instance of St. Stephen concerning the Libertines Alexandrians c. which makes nothing at all for your pretended Evidence of God's Word For though his Judgment might be well taken in expounding Scripture as being full of the holy Ghost and confirming what he said by Miracles as the Scripture tells us he did yet this is not your case for I think you will not arrogate so much to your self What you say of Christ and his Apostles vindicating their Doctrine out of Scripture is very true and our Church doth the same but it is not true that either Christ or the primitive Saints were alwayes wont to send their Proselytes to the Scripture to regulate their Faith Did not Christ himself send St. Paul to Ananias for instruction Had you been of his counsel you would have rather wished him to look into the Word of God and see there what he was to do And when there arose a Debate even in the Apostles dayes about
the necessity of Circumcision Act. 15. did they not assemble the Church and so pronounce Sentence conciliariter with a visum est Spiritui sancto nobis BAPTIST It is here worth noting how you dispute beyond the due bounds of the Query which as it concerns you Papists and us Baptists hath no relation to the Differences which arise in the Church as such and indeed you go amiss in this matter throughout the whole Discourse Here you seem to acknowledge that the Church ought to rule according to Scripture but you will allow me to judge whether she do so or not But I answer that there is a Judgment of Science as well as a Judgment Authoritative the latter I know cannot be exercised by me nor any other Member of the Church because this Power lyeth in the Church as imbodied together but the former to wit a Judgment of Science or Knowledge is particular to each individual and so my self if a Member of the Church am allowed the exercise thereof even in matters of Religion 1 Cor. 10. 15. I speak to wise men judge ye what I say The Apostle doth not here give any wise man at Corinth leave to judge of that which he said so as to censure what he had delivered yet he must exercise his understanding to judge of what Paul had said thereby to find out the verity of what was spoken But yet I do confess that our case and the case of Christians then do differ for Paul was a Foundation-layer a Master-builder so that the Members might not so well judge then as now yet the Church now is to build upon the Foundation which is laid already and you know that I have in my Rejoynder acknowledged that it very nearly concerns particular Members of the Church to have great regard to the Judgment of the Church when after serious debate they deliver their Sentence in any point disputable And further as touching your Church you tell me anon that even a Heathen may judge of the holiness of your Church by the Law of Conscience and then why may he not by the same Law judge your Church concerning her unholiness nay verily he must be able to speak both wayes or else he hath no Judgment And if a Heathen have this priviledge and ability then why not a man professing Christianity who hath not only the Conscience-Law but also the written Law of God by which he understands things more excellent Rom. 2. From all this I only conclude that each particular ought to have the free exercise of his Judgment in what he chuseth or refuseth sith without this he cannot chuse or refuse any thing with confidence nor to his comfort And concerning Controversies in the Church I do not see that in these dayes we are bound to follow the sentence of a multitude though assembled in Council SO as to hold their Sentence absolutely infallible for the promise of infallibility is not made to a certain select number of Bishops but to the Church taken collectively and we may remember that a great Assembly of Prophets in the old Church erred in Judgment with unanimous consent when yet the Lord had one Micaiah at home which understood the truth of his Will Wherefore I here conclude although the Members of the Church ought to weigh with great respect the things concluded of by their Pastors yet so may it be that they may swerve from the Truth whilst God clears it up by some particular rather than by such an Assembly And to this agrees very well a saying of Gerson If it should so happen that there should be a General Council assembled in which such a man were present as is well instructed If the greatest part should decline through Malice or IGNORANCE to the opposition of the Gospel such a LAY-Man may be objected against the said General Council And saith Panormitan In matters WHICH CONCERN FAITH the saying of a LAY-Man ought to be preferred before that of the Pope if his saying be more probable by better authority of Scripture than that of the Pope You often tell me that to appeal to the Spirit speaking in the Scriptures c. is not a sufficient way to decide OUR Controversies and that because you may challenge them to be for you c. To which I answer by retorting your Argument thus That which you call the living Voice of the Church to wit Volumns of Fathers and Decrees of Councils is therefore insufficient to decide OUR Controversies because your opposites do say they are for them and against you and now you must answer your own Query viz. Who must take up this Quarrel You answer that we must explicate them one by another the places which are obscure by such as are plain And then I still ask you why we may not as well agree our selves this way by the Volumns of the Prophets and Apostles I shewed before how you misapply that Text Matth. 18. and though the case is so plain as that you cannot defend your self yet you seem loth to decline your error and would fasten a very gross passage upon me namely that I should say That the Church is no Rule for those that are out of her Communion as not to be a light for such as grope in the dark A manifest wrong I only say and prove That those that are not of the Church are not within the power of her Discipline nor can she reasonably desire unconverted ones to appeal to her Judgment-seat in Controversies between them and her And I asked you If you would not scorn us if we should call upon you to appeal unto us as your Judges Whether we or you be the Church and not doubting but you would I concluded that it is equally absurd for you to desire us to appeal to you as our Judges But you may find it plain enough in my Papers That I do believe the Church SO to be a Rule to the world as to shew them the way of Life and so a good means for their Illumination and Conversion As for your three Texts 1 Tim. 3. Deut. 17. 8 9. Malachi 2. 7. As they do your cause no good so they do mine no harm I grant the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth and that she hath Power to hear and determine all Controversies among her Members as aforesaid and that it is the duty of the Members to enquire of their Pastors what is the way of God concerning them But what of all this Ergo The Papal Church of Rome is the only infallible Judge and Moderatrix of all Contention about Religion Ergo we must all appeal to the Papal Church of Rome as our Judge in this Question Whether we be of the Church or not though we be in doubt Whether she her self be a true Church or not yea though we are satisfied she is not Are not these Monstrous Consequences Be it here observed That I do believe the Church of
Christ to be the Pillar of Truth so as that she was never so over-clouded with error but that she hath enjoyed the fruition of that Promise Matth. 16. in some good measure ever since it was made Nor shall she ever so close with the gates of Hell as by general consent and full authority to dissert that Faith which having Christ for its object is the Rock she is built upon and therefore you see I hold the Church cannot err in some sense and indeed he that holds the contrary must for ought I see raze out that Promise Matth. 16. and many other And yet nothing from all this accrues to the Papal Church of Rome I alledged Stephen as defending the Truth by the authority of Scripture Only c. Nor can it be groundedly imagined that had it been the mind of God that such as are not of the Church should be summoned to her Tribunal Stephen being full of the holy Spirit the leader into all truth would have omitted the use of that means but he knew that such authority the Church had none as I shewed from 1 Cor. 5. What have I to do to judge them that are without do not ye also judge them that are within And therefore he could not mention any such power And though Stephen did many wonders among the People yet at this time when he so powerfully vanquished his adversaries he did none at all but only overcame them by the assistance of the Spirit speaking in the Scripture c. I desired you to shew me but one Instance where ever any of the Primitive Saints did appeal to the Church of which they were present Members as Judge between them and such as never received their Doctrine but you have not done it nor indeed can it be done As I shewed that Stephen appealed to Scripture ONLY c. so I also shewed That it was the way of Christ and his Apostles frequently to vindicate their Doctrine against such as were not of their Church by appealing to the Scriptue especially amongst such as owned the Scripture this you confess and also you tell me that your Church doth the same But this cannot be true of All your Doctrine because you have told me That many Points of your Faith are resolved without the written Word of God or else you never answered my first Antiquery which demandeth What Controversie in Religion you can resolve without the written Word of God And in your Answer you assigned The Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son Sabbath Infant-Baptism and MANY OTHER POINTS OF FAITH and I shall shew anon that we have it pro confesso from your Champions that there be some Points of your Faith which is not GROUNDED UPON nor MENTIONED IN the SCRIPTURES and therefore your Church cannot vindicate such Points of her Faith and Doctrine by the Scripture Although Christ sent Paul to Ananias for instruction yet it followeth not that we must take Romes instructions without Scripture Is there no difference between the time that now is and then was Much of the Scripture if not all the New Testament was then unwritten Again Ananias was immediatly sent of God If you are so sent prove it to us as Ananias did by shewing the Miracle of restoring Paul's sight If you are not so sent to what purpose do you alledge this Text I believe I might form you a monsirous Consequence here PAPIST You that will not trust the Churches Judgment lay down four wayes of resolving Doubts The first To argue it out till Truth prevail But if we must argue only out of Scripture and be our own Interpreters of it there can be no end of arguing as I have often shewed The second To appeal to God as the two Tribes did Josh 22. A rare way to end Controversies to look for Miracles in our Disputes The third To appeal to Scripture and right Reason But if I challenge them to be on my side who must take up the difference The fourth To cast Lots But though the Apostles did it who certainly were inspired to do so yet must not we presume to tempt God or to look for the like Miracles or to build our Faith upon such doubtful events BAPTIST You here wrong us to say that we will not trust the Judgment of the Church for the Church truly and universally taken we do credit as her that is appointed of the Father to be the Pillar and Ground of the Truth of which Church we take the Prophets and Apostles to be the principal Members and so in all Points of Faith to be credited in the first place But if by Church you mean the Papal Church of Rome I confess we dare not trust her Judgement at least not in all that she saith for example these following 1. Your Church tells us That it is not needful for the Scriptures to be read to or by the Laity in a tongue which they understand and that though they Pray after another in Latine though they understand not what they say yet such prayer is sufficient Rhem. Test Annot. in 1 Corinthians 2. Your Church tells us That the Sacrifice of your Masse is available to take away or obtain remission of sins by the work wrought Con. Trident. Sess 22. That the whole Masse is a propitiatory Sacrifice for the quick and dead and whoso saith it is only a commemoration of Christ's Death c. is accursed Con. Trent 3. Your Church holds That such as deny that the real Flesh and Blood of Christ is in the Bread and Wine of the Sacrament ought to be burnt to death 4. Your Church holds and tells us That Images and old clothes of Saints ought to be worshipped with religious Worship 5. That men are AS FULLY Justified by good Works AS THEY ARE DAMNED BY evil Works 6. That it is unlawful for Ministers of Christ to Marry 7. That the Scripture doth not contain all things necessary to Salvation To omit many other these are Points of your Churches Judgment which we dare not trust till by you or some other proved to be Truths I assigned the use of Lots as lawful in some doubtful cases to end Controversies and for proof I quoted Acts 7. and this you will not allow for two Reasons 1. Because you say the Apostles were inspired to use them but were it so as that you cannot prove yet it cannot be denied but we may do some things which they were inspired to do for the Holy Ghost was to lead them into all Truth and they were to lead us into the same Truth by their Example and Doctrine Joh. 16. 13. 1 Cor. 11. 1 2. And be it here observed That the Holy Ghost led those our Teachers to ordain the Ministry by Prayer and laying on of Hands Acts 6 and Acts 13. which practice of theirs is a good president to act by a president I say for this practice is not expresly commanded in Scripture no more than the use
of Lots in the election of Ministers If it here be objected That Christ might give laying on of hands in Precept when he was with his Apostles I Answer So also might he give them the other to be used when there might be persons found of seemingly equal fitness to serve the Church 2. You reckon the use of Lots Acts 1. amongst Miracles as your other Reason why we may not use them to decide any Controversie but why you should so do I see no more reason than to say Josh 22. mention'd any Miracles towards the composure of the difference between the two Tribes and Israel where in truth no such thing can be found though you seem to affirm it PAPIST In my last Paper I took notice how you sent us to Heaven for Miracles to take up our Quarrels after the Example of Moses whose cause was cleared that way Here you deny you brought in the Instance of Moses to this purpose which how true it is every one that can reade must needs see For are not these your words But you say Reason is on my side c. and demand by whom we must be tryed who must take up the quarrel I answ Even the same that took up quarrels of this nature in times past Exod. 7 c. Do you not here tell us plainly That God must take up our quarrels AS he did those of Moses And truly otherwise I might as you foresaw very possibly tell you that your Allegation was nothing to the Question Who must take up the quarrel It is pretty to see what stuff you make of it and then how you digress to rail at our Baptism and Pastours I say rail for you bring no proof at all BAPTIST I have said enough to satisfie any reasonable man that it doth not follow from my alledging Exod. 7. that I send you or any body else to Heaven for Miracles to decide our Controversies For at the first I shewed that in the case of Moses there was Miracle against Miracle only God gave a note of distinction between those signs insomuch as the Serpent that came of Moses Rod devoured the other from whence I only noted That it's God's way to give some powerful note of distinction between the Witness of his Servants and Deceivers And now is not this my Observation very pertinent to our case You say you are the Church We say we are the Church Here is Testimony against Testimony as there was Miracle against Miracle and if the Lord do not now give some powerful note of distinction between our Doctrine and yours concerning the Church as he did between Stephen's and the Alexandrians I pray who must take up the quarrel between U S Is it fit that you should be Judge in your own case here If so why may not we If the Councils and Fathers were of the Papal Church then it is not any more reasonable that you should summon us to their Arbitriment than it is for us to summon you to the Judgment of our Predecessors but forasmuch as you and we are agreed that the Prophets and Apostles were infallibly assisted to write the Mind of God for us to observe therefore it 's most reasonable that we should both appeal to them If you object the Prophets c. are not alive to interpret their Writings and that our difference is about the sense thereof I Answer This objection is every way as forceable against the Decrees of Councils and Volumns of Fathers for their Writings must be interpreted expounded c. and we differ about the meaning of them Secondly the way you assign us to agree them is to consult them together c. Now I would know why we may not be allowed this way to seek out the meaning of the Prophets and Apostles In a word there is not one Objection which yet I have met with levelled against our appealing to holy Scripture c. as the only infallible means to decide all Controversies between YOU and US but the same objections are more forceable against all that you appeal to for decision of the said Controversies PAPIST You except against our Miracles because we bring them to prove our Church by but if it appear as it doth that God works Miracles upon those that actually call upon his Blessed Mother and his other Saints or whilst they are performing some of our Religious practices which you abhor is it not an argument that God approves them It is God then and not we that brings Miracles to prove our Church BAPTIST You will still have your Miracles to be an infallible mark of the truth of your Church especially those of the Blessed Virgin you mean the Image so called at Loreto or as you phrased it in your third Paper The Lady of Loreto But let me tell you that there is small cause you should refer me to what is done there as an infallible mark that your Church is the Church of Christ For by the relation of two eye-witnesses which I have read it is a place of most gross Idolatry blind devotion and deceit One of which Authors was once a Teacher of your Church who before his separation from you travelled to Loreto to see if the Image of the Virgin would inform him of the truth or falshood of the Roman Church as it is now constituted for he was doubtful in this matter and had been informed that if any person were guilty of Mortal sin which if the Papal Church be the Church of Christ he concluded he must needs be guilty of in questioning her at least in the Judgment of the Fryers who waited there upon that Image he had been informed I say that if such as were guilty of Mortal sin did but pray before the Lady of Loreto the said Image would either blush or fall into a sweat and so resolve the Petitioner in the affirmative But if we may believe the Lady of Loreto and this Informant then it is no Mortal sin to think that the Papal Church is not the Church of Christ For this doubtful man prayed earnestly and beheld the Lady as stedfastly but no sweat nor change befel her at all Therefore according to the Fryers rule it is no Mortal sin to think the Papal Church of Rome is not the Church of Christ But this one thing is especially observable here That whereas you would perswade your self and others that I send men to Heaven for Miracles to decide Controversies it is manifest that you are the man that is herein guilty For the Controversie is Whether the Papal Church of Rome be the Church of Christ You affirm I deny To decide this Controversie you refer me to Miracles as the special means or chief mark whereby I may be resolved in this matter as is evident in this and your two former Papers So that what you would cast upon me falls clearly upon your self save that instead of sending me to Heaven you send me to Loreto In my Rejoynder
do decide a Controversie by insisting upon the Scripture this is no more than my Answer included for I do not imagine that the Church must not pronounce what is contained in the Scripture but if she hath power to speak as from the Lord in these dayes when yet the Scripture saith no such thing then I profess my self short of understanding the power of the Church 2 Thess 3. 2. I only made use of this Text thus far that in Religious Controversies the Apostle gives Reason her place and therefore desired to be delivered from unreasonable men PAPIST ONce more you offer to justifie your Consequences drawn out of the five Texts But I ask once more To what purpose did you bring them was it not to prove what you had said in your Answer to my Query That the Scripture so we took right Reason along with us was sufficient to resolve all Controversies in matters of Faith No rational man can reade your first Paper but must think so and indeed otherwise you must have brought them to prove something that was not under debate which had been impertinent Must not that very Assertion of yours be the Consequence to these five Texts and them have I not reason to cry out that there never appeared such Monstrous Consequences But to avoid this inconvenience you fall into the other and will have some of your Texts brought to prove certain Propositions which you had not mentioned in your Answer Howsoever let us now see what you make of them Isa 8. 20. God's People are commanded to have recourse rather to the Law c. than to superstitious Oracles Ad Legem magis c. And they have a sign given them to convince such Oracles of falshood if they speak not according to the Word or Prophesie of Isaiah This is the clear sense of that place out of which you draw this strange consequence Ergo the Scripture c. is to resolve all matters of Faith A strange Consequence I say as will appear if we turn your Euthymeme into a Syllogism thus Recourse is to be had rather to the Law than to false Oracles whose falsehood appears if they speak not according to the Word or Prophecy of Isaiah But if this be so the Scriptures c. are to resolve all points of Faith Ergo c. What a prodigious minor have we here How doth it follow that because God's Word is to be more credited than superstitioas Oracles or that such Oracles are not to be credited when they speak against God's Word Therefore the Scriptures c. are to resolve all points of Faith I know you have not the word rather in your English Translation as we have in ours but the clear sense of the place bears as much 1 Tim. 6. 3. saith they are proud that teach contrary to the Doctrine of Christ Ergo you infer that the Scripture is to judge whose Doctrine is of pride This is as mad a conclusion as the last for when there is no clear Text of Scripture for either side as it often happens or Scripture brought on both sides How can the Scripture judge whether party be proud or how can it be judge of its own sense when it is alledged on both sides who both pretend to have the Spirit and Reason on their sides 1 John 4. 6. Those that hear not the Apostles are not of God nor have his Spirit Ergo say you the Scripture resolves who are religious Doth it follow out of this Text that when parties contend that they hear the Apostles the Scripture can resolve the difference and pronounce who are religious c. Not at all 2 John 9. 10. Gives Judgement against those that follow not Christ's Doctrine You infer ergo the Scripture must try whether men bring this Doctrine Strange Logick for unless your Text proved that the Scripture containes all Christ's Doctrine which it doth not your Consequence must needs be faulty 2 Thess 3. 2. you say proves that Reason is some wayes necessary to decide Controversies in Religion I will not examine the goodness of this Consequence but I am sure you need not have brought Scripture to have proved so manifest a Truth which cannot be denied by any but such as pretend to have so much of the Spirit that me-thinks they should have little need of the use of Reason BAPTIST Concerning my five Texts and what I infer thence I need not speak much here yet it is worthy observing how apparantly you miss the clear sense of Isa 8. 20. whilst you restrain the relatives this word to the Word or Prophecy of Isaiah whereas it is as clear as the Sun at noon that they ought to be referr'd to the Law and Testimony for thus I read To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to This Word Having thus missed the sence of the Text then in all that you say further you discover a taunting spirit endeavouring to bespatter me with what dirt comes next to hand I did not quote any one of the five Texts as taking it singly to prove the whole Assertion and therefore you did injure my understanding to argue from them apart as brought to prove the whole Position but I brought them to prove such Propositions as being laid together do amount to so much as my Assertion as I explicate it doth contain For the first four Texts do all of them shew how God's People ought to try and defend themselves against such as oppose the Church and Truth of God as I shewed in my Rejoynder and the fifth gives Reason her place in Religious Contests But there is not one of the Arguments which I formed from my five Quotations but you deprave and abuse it by both adding terms of your own and omitting mine yea sometimes whole sentenoes and when you have so done you flout at the Conclusions Which dealing is too bad for a sober Disputant It were a very easie thing to turn all your Objections here against the Scripture as insufficient to resolve differences in Religion upon the Church as therefore insufficient to resolve them For whereas you say That when both Parties pretend to have Scripture and Reason on their sides then the Scripture cannot decide the Controversie Might not I as well say when both parties pretend to have the Church on their side as that 's the case between us the Church then cannot decide our difference Again where you seem to say that when both parties contending do say they hear the Apostles that then the Apostles cannot as they speak in the Scriptures decide the Controversie Hath not this the same force against the Church when both parties contend they hear the Church See how you can defend your self and I doubt not but therein you will defend my Arguments for the Scripture And because you do cry up the Fathers c. for so clear a way to decide all our Controversies I will therefore shew you that they do clearly
avouch the Answer which I have given to this your first Query as will evidently appear to the impartial Reader of the several Quotations which I have before alledged and which do here follow The ANSWER to the FIRST QUERY Avouched sufficient by the Sentence of divers DOCTORS both Antient and Modern VVHether of us be Schismaticks ask not me I will not ask you Let Christ be asked that he may shew us his Church Neither must I alledge the Nicene Council nor you the Arimi I am neither bound to the one nor you to the other let the matter be tryed by the Scripture Augustine saith Let the Scriptures judge let Christ judge let the Apostles judge Yea it is confessed by the Papists that Aug. Optatus and Basil summoned their Adversaries to the arbitriment of holy Scriptures and did allow the sufficiency of holy Scripture to decide the Controversies depending between them In time past saith Chrysostome there were many wayes to know the Church of Christ viz. by good Life by Miracles by Chastity c. but from the time that Heresies did take hold of the Church it IS ONLY known by the Scripture which is the true Church Again he saith The Lord then knowing that so great confusion would come in the latter dayes therefore willed the Christians that would take to the sureness of true Faith to have refuge to nothing but to the Scripture otherwise saith he if they regard other things they shall perish not understanding what the true Church is Thus my Answer is avouched good as it respects the means to decide the differences which are about the Church Next hear what they say touching such differences as are in the Church Iren. If there be any disagreement risen up among Christians concerning Controversies in Religion what better course is there to be taken than to have our recourse into the Most antient Churches which must needs be those planted by the Apostles considering the time when he lived and to receive from thence what shall be certain and manifest Augustine Because the Scripture cannot deceive whoso feareth to be misled in the obscurity of this Question let him ask COUNSEL of that Church which the SCRIPTURE without any ambiguity pointeth out Constantine Mag. There are the Gospel the Prophets and Apostles which do teach us what to hold in Religion wherefore expelling all hostile and bitter contention let us seek the Solution of these Questions out of the Scriptures Thus spake this famous Emperor in the Council of Nice at what time the Bishops had like to have jarred into pieces THus have I given an impartial Relation of what hath passed between the Popish Querist and my Self in our two last Papers which contains the sum of what passed in the other as touching this Question about the Judge of Controversies And now for further satisfaction That the Scripture as aforesaid ought to be admitted the high Prerogative of Judge in our Debates consider that of necessity it must be so My reason is because either the Scripture or some other Writings must be our Judge especially in this important Question WHICH IS THE TRUE CHURCH For when we contend about her it is very unreasonable that any party contending for that title should be permitted to give Judgment in their own cause As for example The present Assembly of Papists say That they are the true Church and the present Assemblies of Baptists say That they are the true Church Is it fit that either party contending should here give Judgment decissive What then must we do why of necessity we must to some Writings whereby to be decided or agreed in this Controversie These Writings must be either the Scriptures or some other but no other can compare with those so that they do deserve this Prerogative better than any other The Papists ordinary way in this difficulty is to tell us that we must here be tryed by the Tradition of our Fore-fathers in which they say we cannot be deceived which Tradition they say is the only thing that is unquestionable and needs no other ground to stand upon but it self And against the Scripture's being received upon its own evidence or authority they usually do thus object that before we can receive what it teacheth we must be assured of its truth And again they say the Scripture may not be the Judge of Controversie because it may be corrupted translated ill interpreted not rightly understood And by these and other like objections they usually in all their Writings invalidate the Scriptures certainty authority and sufficiency that so they advance the authority of their Traditions But let it be seriously considered whether these Objections have not the same force against what they rest upon which they have against the holy Scripture First then whereas they tell us the Scripture cannot teach us any thing till we be assured of its truth Doth not this conclude against any other thing as strongly Ought we not to be assured of the truth of the Church before we receive her documents Ought we not to be assured of the truth of that Tradition which we receive for the Rule of our Faith But how must we be assured of the truth of the Papal Church and Tradition There is not a man living that can remember when either began and so avouch its beginning to be of divine Institution and the continnance of the same ever since its beginning to have been without any corruption What then must we do Why we must search Romes Records And then I ask are they not as questonable and liable to mis-interpretations as easily mis-understood as the Records of God What is now become of these Objections the force whereof is evidently against the Papal Church and her Traditions of the truth whereof we must be assured BEFORE we can be taught by either of them I say again There is not a man of all the Papists that can evidence Rome to have been a Church two hundred years ago and then much less one thousand six hundred years ago So that OF NECESSITY we must to the Writings of some men whom we never saw write one word to find the Church And then I would know why we may not make enquiry at the Pen of Paul what the Church was at first and what it ought to be now as well as at the Pen of Augustine Cannot the Pen of Peter the Apostle give us as good information in this matter as the Pen of any Pope pretending to be his Successor If the Papists answer That we know not the Pen of Peter or Paul We answer as well as they know the Pen of Augustine or Gregory If they say Paul's Writings may be corrupted and must be interpreted may be mis-understood I return the same Answer of all other Books whatsoever yea those which contains Romes Tradition See therefore what is gained by devising objections against the authority or certainty of the holy Scriptures Such
God service by compelling Families Towns Countries Nations or many Nations to be of one mind in matters of Religion I say it is in vain because the Scripture foresees and also foreshews that the contrary effects must follow the preaching of the Gospel and yet they may yea and ought to live in one form of Civil Government for that is the will of God concerning every soul Rom. 13. 1 to 8. 3. The Gospel-Church cannot be National because that takes away from her Persecution for the Gospel-sake makes her become a Persecutor For it is impossible for a Church to be National without penal Laws whereby to force men to that kind of Worship which the greater part approveth which may as possibly be false as true But the true Church must not look to be free from Persecution if she live godly in Christ Jesus nor is any thing more uncomly for her than to punish or persecute men into a Conformity to her Faith or religious practice John 15. 19 20. Mat. 10. 22. 2 Tim. 3. 12. Luke 9. 56. And the greatest part of the Revelations do shew that the Church was to be in a suffering condition and are therefore bid to be patient until the coming of the Lord Jam. 5. 4. A National-Church cannot observe the discipline of the Church of Christ for in the case of withdrawing from disorderly persons they do not only separate men of disorder from the Church both in Civil and Religious concerns but they cast them wholly out of the World from all Markets and Fairs yea quite out of their Livelihoods c. which kind of Excommunication the Scripture foresees to be proper to the Churches Adversary Rev. 13. 16 17. 5. If the Gospel-Church ought to be National then she was imperfect in point of Power in the Apostles dayes for she had not then any Power to put Hereticks to death for their Heresie But to say that the Primitive Church wanted any Power to punish any sin as it concerns the Church to punish it is to disparage the Apostolical Churches and is also contrary to the Scriptures which plainly shew they had Power then to revenge all disobedience 2 Cor. 10. 4 5 6. The Fourth Reason The Papal Church encreaseth her self more by the Carnal Sword than by the Spiritual Word Therefore she is not the Church of Christ The fourth Reason maintained THat such Churches as are National do most encrease their numbers and keep them also when they have them by the terror of Death and Penal Laws both Experience shews and Reason tels that it cannot be otherwise How often hath our Nation changed their Religion with the breath of a Prince sometime to Popery and otherwhiles to Protestancy and under O. Cromwel to a compound of half Presbytery and half Independency according to the temper of those that sat at the Stern of Affairs And now how are they turn'd again to Prelacy Of which last change I say if any have conformed as judging it their duty to God so to do those though this doth not justifie their way to be good yet are honest men But if any for self-interest have done it they are the very dregs of men and will be any thing and so nothing 2. I remember a notable saying of Hillary who lived about the 4th or 5th hundred and in his dayes the Church was a degenerating from her Regeneral Constitution into a National Form where he saith Ambition doth aid it self by the Name of CHRIST the Church doth fear and compel the People through Banishments and Imprisonment to believe her in those things which she had received through being imprisoned She that could not be beloved of Christ if the World had not hated her now glorieth to be extolled and beloved of the World c. And that the Papal Church hath ordinarily encreased her self more by terror of the Carnal Sword than the Word of God doleful Histories do declare namely these Sleidan Comment A Book entituled The Indians Tears or Inquisition for Blood as also Fox his Acts and Monuments And here I think it meet to give an instance from one of their own Historiagraphers namely Fabinus He tells us that after Austin the Monk had gotten a considerable settlement in England it happened that there was a Council assembled in this Nation where Austin proposed several things to which the other Bishops could not consent but by your leave when Austin could not prevail by the Word or rather his words he told them If they would not submit they should be compelled by the wasting that should be made in their Country through War and Misery This was not Paul's way 2 Cor. 5. 20. The Fifth Reason The present Papal Church of Rome labours to keep the World in darkness and the Church also Therefore she is not the Church of Christ The fifth Reason maintained THe Consequence of this Argument no man can deny for there is nothing more opposit to the true Church than to love or cause darkness to seize upon any And that the present Papal Church of Rome labours to keep all men in darkness is thus proved 1. She forbids almost all men to reade the Scriptures and thereupon hath greatly withstood the Translation of them into every Tongue as is evident partly from what History declares and partly from that which themselves do say To omit History hear what they say themselves In their Preface to the Reader in the Rhemist Testament thus they speak Order was taken by the Deputies of the late famous Council of Trent in this behalf and confirmed by supream Authority That the Scripture though truly translated into the vulgar Tongues yet may not be indifferently read of all men nor of any other than such as have express Order thereunto of their lawful Ordinaries So that we see the Liberty here given is unlike the Liberty given by Christ to his enemies whom he commanded to search the Scripture John 5. 39. And the rich Glutton's Friends are said to have the Prophets and Moses Luk. 16. 29. Israel was of old indifinitly required to lay up the Book of the Law in their heart to talk of it as they sate in their houses as they went abroad they must teach them to their children and write them upon the posts of their doors Deut. 6. 4 to 9. Notwithstanding all this and much more liberty given by the Lord both to his Enemies and Friends to reade his Word you see the Council of Trent will have none permitted but whom the Ordinaries permit to reade the Scripture and they are only such as they judge discreet c. Pref. Rhem. Test Is it not strange that men pretending to be Christ's true Followers should thus contradict him He allowed that to his Enemies which they will not allow to his Friends Sure they have neither heard his Voice nor seen his Shape or at least not learned of him Miserable is the Gospel-Church by the Council of Trents Doctrine they have not
hundred years after Christ and if she be not now what she was then in that respect I desire to be informed where that blood-drunken Fornicatrix mentioned Revelation 17. is now to be found The Ninth Reason The present Papal Church hath not those Marks which they themselves assign as the Marks by which the true Church can only be known infallibly Therefore the present Papal Church of Rome is not the Church of Christ Those Marks are 1. ANTIQUITY 2. SUCCESSION 3. VNIVERSALITY of Time and Place 4. VISABILITY 5. SANCTITY 6. VNITY 7. MIRACLES c. These are the Principal The Ninth Reason maintained THat the present Papal Church cannot have the true Mark of Antiquity is thus evidenced viz. The Papal Church is a National Church But no Gospel Church was National in the first Age Therefore no National Church hath the true Mark of Antiquity The strength of this Argument lyeth in the clear difference of the state of the Church under Abraham and Moses to what it was under Christ and his Apostles For The Jewish Church which was to be National took its form in a National way even in the very first Family where it began as appears Gen. 17. where Parents Children and Servants too must all be brought into that Church-state forthwith or not be suffered to co-habit together Which order must be kept in all the Families of the Jews as well in respect of their Servants such as they bought with money as their Children or any other And so the Jewish Church both in its beginning and its continuance acted forth it self in a way suitable to it self But when the Gospel Church began it is very evident that it took its beginning in the division of Families and that by vertue of Christ's Doctrine who affirms That he came to send fire on the Earth not Peace but rather Division For saith he From henceforth there shall be fixâ—â— in one house divided three against two and two against three the Father against the Son and the Son against the Father the Daughter against the Mother and the Mother against the Daughter c. and all this for the Gospel sake Here a man must leave Father Mother Wife and Children For this cause ye shall be betrayed both by Parents and Kinsfolks For this cause the unbelieving Husband will put away his believing Wife And for this cause the Servant may refuse to follow his unbelieving Master being Christ's freeman and yet dwell in his Service as a Servant notwithstanding Thus it 's evident That the Gospel-Church took its beginning in a way quite contrary to the Form of a National Church even by turning the World or Church of the Jews up-side down which caused the Jews to cry out MEN OF ISRAEL HELP This is yet more evident by that thundring Doctrine of the Baptist when he said Think not or begin not to say within your selves We have Abraham to our Father No saith Paul We meaning the Gospel-Church which are of Faith are the Seed of Abraham and Heirs according to Promise For the Promise which chiefly is enjoyed in the Gospel was not made to such as were born after the Flesh but such as are born after the Spirit Whereupon he saith We henceforth know No man after the Flesh or because he descends from the loins of Abraham or any other For if any man be in Christ so as to be a demonstrable or visible Member of his Gospel-Church he is a new-creature Old things are passed away yea the old priviledge of standing in the Church by the Father's interest though the Seed of Abraham himself is now passed behold all things in this respect are become new Whereupon Peter contributeth his sentence and saith Of a truth I perceive God is no respecter of Persons but the Persons accepted upon a Gospel-account so as to be his Church are such as in every Nation fear him and work Righteousness which no Infant can do But what Hath God rejected Infants wholly that now he will not shew them so much favour as afore-time God forbid He hath not shut up his tender Mercies from them wholly or in part For as they are such and dying in their infancy through Adam's transgression so in Christ shall they be made alive Wherefore look how far soever they fall in the first man of the Earth so far they shall be restored by the Lord from Heaven yea the Gift to them by Christ shall exceed the Loss they had by Adam But if they live to years of understanding and become actual sinners against God then the way appointed for the remission of their sins is to repent and be baptized every one of them that they may receive the holy Ghost and so be by it led into all Truth and attain at the end the salvation of their souls through Jesus Christ our Lord. Another Argument whereby it appears the Church of Christ cannot be National is this No man is bound to become a Christian under pain of corporal punishment as Death c. but living peaceably as men no man hath power to compel them to be baptized or to walk in the Christian Profession as is clear from the Texts before recited Now take away Force in matters of Religion and a National Church cannot stand in an absolute National Form this all experience can testifie Again That the Church of Christ at the first or in the first Ages was not National in the first method or way wherein a Church beginneth to be so namely by the admission of Infants into the Church is very evident because it is utterly incredible that the many thousands of Infants of such as in those dayes believed should be admitted into the Church and not so much as the whisper of such a thing to be found in all the holy Writings of the Apostles And beside I have shewed from the Testimony of Vives Augustines Commentor That the Church had not the custom to baptize Infants in old time It is likewise certain if History be true That the Gospel-Church used no compulsion in matters of Faith for more than three hundred years after Christ About which time Constantine ordained grievous punishments for such as spake against Christ and allowed the Christians to use the Unbelievers hardly But God did not bless these doings for Constantine became an Arrian Heretick and persecuted the Bishop that baptized him as also others that continued faithful Hence then I conclude That seeing the present Papal Church of Rome hath not the true Mark of Antiquity Therefore they lose at once the next three Succession Universality and Visibility For Antiquity being wanting no true Succession can be found because the Root of Succession if good must be the Antiquity of it So take Antiquity from them and then wanting that first Age they cannot be found in every Age and not being found in every Age especially the first Age then they lose Visibility as themselves propose it for a Mark of