in the Church untill the harvest are hypocrites profane men shall be cashiered or rather never admitted into the Churches of Christ But I cannot devise how its possible these Parochiall Congregations can be purged without disbanding there are so few who are fit to be Church-members and so many of the wicked Pr. Although we have not the Discipline set up to sweep and cleanse the Church yet we endeavor to put a difference between the precious and the vile and to give everie one their portion and to order things in the best manner we can both for the Ministerie and people Ph. It s true you have the Image or rather counterfeit of some such thing as putting a difference in he Popish Vestries But I pray you what garments have you to keep there that the Vestrie must needs be upheld the Whoores smock with the Cope Rochet Tippet and other trumperie are gone And I know not any of Baals Priests here who now use such vestments that there is any need of a Vestrie to put them in or that so manie men need be trusted with them Pr. That meeting which you scoffe at is no such Vestrie it s only a place for the heads of the Parish to meet in to consult about the affairs and Orders of the Church and for setling and chusing the Minister when there is need and providing maintenance for him Ph. It seems then that those Vestrie-men who are there to consult are more worthie then the rest who are without and may not intermeddle with these things about which they consult These do very well resemble the conclave of Cardinals at Rome advising about the chusing deposing and ordering the affairs of the Pope and his Church But I pray you by what Law of God have these your Vestrie men autoritie to elect and put out the Minister and to prescribe rules and Lawes for the residue of the people I protest against all their Orders and agreements how just soever they may seem as not daring to submit to such an usurped power being contrarie to Christian libertie in which the Apostle Paul commands the Galatians and in them all Christians to stand fast and to maintain the same as being purchased by Christ himself Gal. 5. 1. compared with chap. 3. 1. 3. chap. 4. 10. Pr. I confess this Vestrie is not a right Presbyterie nor claim they any such power by colour of any divine Law But yet for order and conveniencie I think they ought to be tolerated untill the time of reformation But Sir what doth this concern you It becomes you to be a hearer and a learner rather then a Teacher having no calling thereunto Ph. It concerns me and every Christian as a member of the Church if your Church be a true Church to elect our own Minister and not to have him thrust upon us either without or against our wills or consents as the manner now is And he that comes in otherwise then by the suffrage of the people enters not by the door but comes in as a Thief and a Robber and hath no lawful calling Calvin Instit. l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 15. Act. 14. 23. Pr. For our calling to the Ministerie we doubt not of it nor ever questioned it being confident its warrantable Those who ordained us being Bishops and lawfull Presbyters or at least they stood in the place of such and acts don by them are valid Sacraments administred by Papists and other hereticks are right Sacraments so they be duly administred for the matter although joyned with their corruptions And I hâ—ld it unlawfull for any man to take upon him the Office or function of a Minister without a lawfull calling And I finde that in those ancient Canons called the Canons of the Apostles it is ordained that one Bishop may ordain a Presbyter Ph. This is a poor and insufficient calling if a Bishop had any autoritie to ordain a Minister or to judge of his gifts in order to his admission to a Church which I denie and the same is a point of Poperie yet that thereupon the Churches suffrage or assent should be by the Bishop conferred upon the Minister is against all sense and reason much more against Religion which ought to be squared by the word as the Rule Mar. de vulson de libert. de le Eglises Gallicane Pag. 148. ca. 9 And for your Canons of which you speak none regard them but the more ignorant sort of Papists they being known to be of a later date then the Apostles and are credited as much as Lucianus scoffes Tobits and Judiths stories or Jeffery Munmouth his tales And those Canons were coyned just at his time some four hundred years since by some of Jeffery's Religion But can you shew no more then this for your calling then give over railing against others who have not the same and yet it may be a better calling then you have Pr. Why what do our Ministers of the Church of England want or what is requisite to a lawfull Calling to the Ministerie Ph. Besides abilities of gifts and inward graces every Minister ought to have a more due ordination and this is to be performed by the Church or Congregation for the better effecting whereof they may take the advice of the learned who are able to make tryal of his gifts and of his abilitie and aptness to teach And then the same is perfected by the free election or suffrage of the people who are Church-members And in these things the Scripture is plain shew how you have such a calling Pr. For the first I had thought I had given you satisfaction alreadie when I told you we were ordained by Bishops who had abilitie to judge of the Ministers gifts and were or stood in the place of true Presbyters And for that which you call Election or the Suffrage or assent of the people although it have no place with us regarding everie circumstance in the formalitie of it yet we have that which is equivalent to it Ph. I pray you what is that Pr. We at the least some of us have the consent of the Parish or at least the most of them either before or after our admission and if not we are presented by the Patron of the Church who is instead of all the Congregation being their representative in as much as he was intrusted by them all to chuse for them all in regard of their weakness and to avoid confusion in the election and his act in presenting is the act of all the people as the Acts of Parlament being made by those who are chosen by the people are the Acts of the people And the people are bounden as well by the Acts of the one as of the other yet if any man except against the person presented he hath his liberty to do it Ph. O most profound divinitie or rather notable poperie By the same Rule and upon the same ground the Pope collated to many Churches in England and the Bishops had
ridiculous offering and were anciently given as an amends and satisfaction to God but they went to the Priest to purge the guilt of the deceased which he contracted by his non-payment of Tythes whilest he was living and ought as well as other Offerings be laid aside according to that Thou shalt not bring the hire of a Whore nor the price of a dog into the house of the Lord c. And what agreement hath the Temple of God with Idols Deut. 23. 18. Pr. But now I pray you according to your judgement what must become of all our Churches It seems by your argument if one may believe you they must all be plucked down as the Brownists teach what say you to that Ph. Touching the name CHURCH in your sense I do not greatly like it for it properly signifieth a Companie and is used for the companie of the faithful yet for the present I shall admit the word by a Metonymie to signifie the place of their meeting And I do not conceive there is any necessitie to pluck these Churches or meeting places down I confess I put no holiness in them and think the Congregation may as well meet in any other convenient place and that there is neither Legal nor Evangelical holiness in them And that plucking down all the Popish and superstitious and Monuments of Idolatrie I do not mean the Arms of men of renown and placing a faithfull Ministerie there is a sufficient purging of these places to make them fit for the people of God to meet in for partaking of the holy Ordinances of God Pr. Why say you so These Churches were founded by Papists and have been used to Idolatrie And therefore you may as well allow of the things you speak against even now as these Churches I think both ought to be allowed indifferently Ph. I hold there is great difference First for those I spake of formerly we are sure they were the inventions of the Man of sin and its possible to shew when and how they were brought into the Church of Rome But these Churches at least manie of them are more ancient then Poperie or Antichrist for it s not possible that Antichrist could come untill the Roman Empire was broken and removed which was at least four hundred years after Christ Before which Christianitie was plentifully spread in England and many Churches and Congregations planted for the true worship of God 2. Thes. 7 8. Reve. 13. 2. Antiquitie with full consent agree that Christianitie was here planted in or neer the Apostles daies and that upon occasion of the Persecution that rose about Stephen Acts 11. 19. divers of the Apostles and Disciples came into England amongst whom the Ancients reckon Peter Paul Joseph of Aramathea and Symon Zelotes And that some Brittaines both men and women were famous Christians and some suffered Martyrdom here in the first ten Persecutions Fox Act. Mon. vo p. 147. 148 Speeds Chron pa. 〈◊〉 Arch-Bishops we cannot conceive but that the pietie and devotion of those times when they had a Christian King Lucius An. 180. pr. Christ and Christianitie countenanced and priviledged by divers of the Emperors especially Constantine and Theodosius would stir up the Christians to build them meeting places Besides about the year six hundred when Augustin the Monck falsly called the English Apostle came into England sent by Pope Gregorie the Great who had not taken upon him the Title of universal Bishop he found the reliques of manie Churches and Congregations of Christians planted in England and Wales Fox Act. Mon. vo pa. 150. 151. And he disputed with the Monks of Bangor about Ceremonies by which it s conceived he brought not so much Religion with him 〈◊〉 he did superstition and Introductions to Popery for the Brittains had learned Religion from better Tutors It s true afterwards these meeting places were generally all polluted with Popish Idolatry all which with the Reliques thereof being swept out they are clean as before Pr. But what say you to this many of our Churches were Idols Temples Goodw Ant. Ro. ca. 20. de delubro Ph. The Parish Churches I conceive were built for the service of the true God the forms of them are unlike the Idol Temples But I confess some of the Cathedrall Churches were the Temples of Idols as of Jupiter Apollo Janus and Diana some of which are demolished and some were new built as Pauls at London by Ethelbert the King about 1060 years since At which time hee put out the Flammins and Arch-flammins and set up Arch-Bishops and Bishops These Churches were built and dedicated to Idols or rather Devils and false Gods and therefore ought to be demolished as I conceive according to that Law Ye shall destroy all the places where they served their Gods and break down their Altars c. Deut. 12. 2 3 c. Pr. Well I hope shortly to see the Church-government setled with the Classes and Synods and that thereby all things will be well reformed for the Appeals will regulate every thing which is irregularly done and many will see more then a few Ph. I should be glad to see a through Reformation but I do much feare these Prudentiall things the Classes Synods and Appeals to them will prove but imprudentiall and Physicians of no value And I doubt not but those who put the Parliament upon them have their own ends and aims in them Pr. Why say you so the Church of Antioch did appeal to the Councell at Jerusalem in a case of Conscience Acts 15. and why may not we do the like Pr. I deny that there was any such Appeale as you mean its true the Church of Antioch in a case of conscience did voluntarily send Paul and Barnabas and other brethren to Jerusalem to advise with the Apostles Elders and Church there about that matter And accordingly they received the sentence and judgement of the whole Church as well Brethren as Apostles and Elders which Apostles had extraordinary gifts of knowledge and revelation and what they directed them was in stead of the written Word We have no persons so gifted in these daies but must have recourse to the Law and the Testimonies the written Word of God Pr. But do you not think that these Classes and Appeals will be of excellent use for cropping and curbing of Errors Heresies and Sectaries and keeping the Church free from pollution Ph. I am unwilling to tell you what I think of Presbyterial Gouernment I le say nothing of it but take thus much mark the end and observe it These things the Classes Synods and Appeals can never profit the Church of Christ The Appeals are in effect the same wee had before from the Arch-Deacon to the Consistory of the Bishop from thence to the Arches then to the Audience and then to the Delegates so from the Congregation Presbyterie to the Classes from the Classes to the Provinciall Synod then to the Nationall Here is work for the Civill Lawyers to wyer-draw
Parish and not follow Sectaries and seducing teachers If these and such like were looked to and observed the Church and Common-wealth would soon bee quiet and the want of these things is the occasion of all the miseries which wee lie under as well the late Warrs as all the sad effects thereof Ph. Indeed War is an heavie judgment and I think I may truly say that the rigid Presbyterians to advance those things you have mentioned and other worldly respects and carnal ends have been the occasions thereof Pr. How can that bee Ph. By their preaching and prayings they have everie where disgraced the Parlament stirred up the people against the Armie incouraged Neuters and Malignants and put the English and Scot's Malignants in hope to finde a partie strong enough in England to destroie both Parlament and Armie Pr. I confess wee have justly complained against the Parlament and Armie becaus the one did not settle the Presbyterian-government and the other countenanced all Sectaries and Hereticks but wee did it not to the end to destroie the Parlament Ph. What ever your intents were I am sure your practice was abominable you fill'd all places with your clamors and out-cries against the Parlament and Armie as the Scotch Ministers likewise did untill you and they had conjured up more evil spirits then you could allaie And I am confident had it not been for the men of your faction who prepared the people for a new War by the courses aforesaid neither our conquered enemies at home nor the Scots durst have attempted anie more to make head against us Pr. What prejudice can the Parlament or Armie receiv by the Ministers It 's well known wee praied for them both And what can you object against our Praiers or Preaching Ph. I could fill a volume with your reproaches and evil surmises scandals disgraces calumnies and other unsavorie matter by you cast upon the Parlament and Armie in your Sermons for a taste whereof view the book called the Pulpit-Incendiarie and let anie man judg whether this did not much alienate the people's hearts from the Parlament and Armie And for your praiers for them they were for the most part like your Sermons and still in your Sermons and praiers you speak of the Armie as enemies Pr. Well it was time for the Ministers to speak and praie and deal plainly with the people when all things were grown into such confusion and disorder as they were far wors then under the Episcopal Government Ph. I do confes there were disorders but the Churches are not in so bad a condition as under the Prelacie for that Hierarchie was Antichristian Pr. I denie that it may bee som things injoined by the Prelates were Antichristian but not they as they stood in the Church of England for Antichrist wheresoever hee is described in Scripture is described by his fals doctrine and manie of our Bishops were Orthodox men free from Popish Errors and Heresies Ph. I 'le grant you they might hold fundamental truths and yet their calling bee Antichristian for who know's not that Antichrist is described as well by his power pride crueltie blasphemie hypocrisie and idolatrie as by fals Doctrine Rev. 17. 1 2 3 4 5. 18. 3. 13. 2 6 11. Ph. Well notwithstanding what you saie if Episcopacie had been lopped the abuses taken away those which were naught removed and good men put in their rooms wee had never seen these disorders and confusions for that government although but prudential as som would have it was an excellent means for staying the growth of errours and heresies in the Church Ph. Indeed that was the pretence at first but the cure was worse then the disease for it proved a heavie scourge to the Church of God and out of that egge grew the Serpent that Antichrist the head of Prelacie and I conceive that Government could never have been profitable to the Churches of Christ Pr. I will say no more of that Hierarchie seeing the same is abolished and the State hath thought fit to take it away but why is not the Church setled Ph. What do you mean by a Church in Gospell sense Pr The word CHURCH besides the general acceptation of it signifying all the Elect hath a double signification 1. It 's taken for a particular Congregation so many as may or do meet together to partake in divine Ordinances or as wee call it a Parish and so the word Church is strictly taken 2. But the word Church in a larger sens comprehends not onely such a company but also the Christians in a whole countrie as Ephesus and Achaia and so many Thousands who could not possibly meet together in one place yet they are called a Church Act. 2. 41. 21. 20. Ph. Time will not permit mee to enter into that controversie but for mine own part I am satisfied that the Churches under the Gospel are not Oecumenical National Provincial or Diocesan but * Congregational which Congregational Churches ought to consist of so many Christiâ—ns as may join in Christian fellowship and communion under one Pastor who ought to convers with them and know their state and condition and apply his Ministrie answerably unto them but for your greater Church and Parish Church I acknowledg none such Pr. However you think yet it is plain in that place of Act. 2. 41. 21. 20. where the Christians were many Thousands Myriads they are called the Church c. Ergò c. Ph. It 's evident the word Church applied to so many Thousands as you speak of is not to bee taken properly but tropically and so by a Synechdoche it may bee taken for many Churches or els for part of the Catholick Church which manner of speaking is usu al in a Scripture But I marvell why you should endeavouâ— to prove that a Church in Gospel sense should contain more Christians then can convene in one place to partake in Divine Ordinances Pr. I doe it to let you know that men of greater parts and learning may have more dignitie and superintendencie and also a greater reward and encouragement Ph. So plead the Papists and the polititians amongst the superstitious Protestants of this last age for the Prelacy and Hierarchy who affirme that the Angells of the seven Churches of Asia and Timothy and Titus who were Evangelists were Diocesan Bishops And the same argument likewise serves for maintenance of the Bishop of Rome his preheminencie above all other Bishops which I think you will not defend Pr. I will not dispute the right of Episcopal government seeing with us it 's abolished but you must admit a difference and degrees amongst Ministers and Churches or greater inconveniences will follow for the Parishes which are the particular Congregations are not all of a bigness nor equall and I think they are well divided conducing much to my purpose Ph. The Pope and his agents dealt not so equally in that point as they might have done It s true that
professing Christianitie are not members of the visible Church but such as are admitted as Church-Members Pr. Well what ever some others think in all places in this Land where Parishes are divided there is either a lawfull Minister or one who stands in place of such who in some degree preacheth or at least publisheth by reading the word of God and administreth the Sacraments to the people therefore in charitie they ought to be accounted the Church of God Ph. The division of Parishes and such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of are not sufficient to give the Parish Congregation the denomination of a visible Church of Christ For then must almost all the Congregations under the Papacie be visible Churches for amongst them the Parishes are divided and so they were in England almost 340. before any Reformation And those Popish Congregations had the word of God dailie read nay and preached constantly and expounded in manie places by their Friers and Postillers as may be seen by their works in Print Nay and their verie Mass-Books have much of the word of God in them although most miserably corrupted and mingled with their own inventions They have also had both Sacraments amongst the Papists for a long time and have yet at least Calvin Instit. l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 11. Baptisme mingled with Popish Ceremonies of which the Cross is the worst and some other footsteps of a true Church And if these had made a Congregation a true Church poore Penry was unwise to publish that a great part of Wales never had the face of a Church of Christ the Parishes being divided and the Churches furnished with such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of Yet he and others have formerly charged the State with refusing the Gospel and rejecting Christ and his pure worship in as much as there was no Reformation although it cost him and others their lives for their boldnes Entri Cook Judit pa. 352. Pr. You speak of dark Corners of the Land as if none were in better condition you may finde amongst the manie thousand Parishes of this Nation manie visible Churches of Christ and mine in particular Ph. I doubt not but there are manie visible Churches of Christ in this Common-wealth and true Ministers of Christ lawfully called But when I pray you became your Parish to be a true visible Church of Christ Pr. My Parish hath been a visible Church ever since it was instituted and the Church founded you know not the contrarie and therefore ought to admit it having so continued beyond the memorie of man until this day Ph. When was your Church founded Pr. You your self have confessed that the Gospel was planted in England before Poperie came to its height and the Ministerie and Churches were then setled and had succession from the Apostles daies shew me when the Succession failed Ph. If I should admit the place that you call Church viz. the meeting Place to have been built before Poperie yet this proves not that the Congregation is a visible Church your succession hath had several interruptions and discontinuance First it is to be considered that the whole Current of Historie agree that the Romans commanded the better part of Brittaine from the time of Julius Caesar until Theodosius the younger which was almost five hundred years and the tenth Persecution about 337. years after Christ during which time there were not above five of the Emperours who were either Christians or shewed favour to Christians but generally all the rest first or last in their times were wicked Persecutors Heathens and worshippers of Idols some of which by exquisite Torments wasted the Churches of Christ and drove the Professors into corners they not daring to meet in publick When the Roman Empire was broken or at least was grown to an ebb the Saxons invaded this Island and about the year foure hundred and fiftie the Brittains were beaten into Wales by Gormundus and thence grew the great Colledge of Moncks at Bangor with whom Austin contended And the Saxons as well as the Romans were Heathens and had their Idol Priests Flammins and Arch Flammins like the late Bishops and Arch-Bishops for dignitie and Power and these continued until about six hundred years after Christ where is now your Succession Pr. But yet there were manie faithful Christians both Pastors and others in the worst times and I could tell you of manie who suffered Martyrdome for Christ's cause in this Nation and if we cannot prove Succession it is rather for want of the light of Historie then for that there were no such Churches or Pastors Nevertheless from the time of the abolishing of the Heathens Hierarchie and Idolatrie which was done by King Ethelbert above a thousand years since we have a verie fair Succession Ph. This indeed manie of you boast of but it makes little for your purpose To omit to speak of the miserie brought upon this Land and the decay of the true Religion by meanes of the incursions or rather Conquests of the Saxons and Danes after Ethelberts time It is certain and you cannot denie it that all your successions both of Ministerie and Parish-Churches came from your Mother the Church or rather the Whore of Rome who had all at her devotion until King Henrie the eight drove out the Pope and kept Poperie Cath. Divine An. Caudreys Case P. 108. 109. Bed l. 1. Hist. Angl. ca. 22. 27. Pr. Well its true that for about five hundred years untill the Reformation began the Bishop of Rome usurped authoritie over the Church of England but yet all did not submit alike some faithfull men escaped both Ministers and people as John Wickliff and his followers persecuted by the name of Lollards who grew in great number even in our Countrie about two hundred years before the Reformation From which time of Reformation you cannot denie but that my Parish in particular hath been a true visible Church where there hath been a competent number of faithful people and a Minister who claimed nothing from Rome for the Popes Supremacie was abolished by King Henrie the eight as you now said Ph. If the rejecting of the Popes Supremacie make your Parish a true Church then likewise are the most of the Popish Congregations of France true Churches for they likewise have rejected or refused to receive the Popes Supremacie and have not received the Councel of Trent but have had a Pope a Cardinal of their own for manie years past And Cardinal Richelieu called a Prince of the Church was as great a Pope as William Laud late Prelate of Canterburie Marc. de vulson des Libert. de'l Eglise Gallicane lib. 3. pa 233. 234. 235. Pr. You cannot denie the Succession of faithful Ministers which if you admit you must also admit the Succession of Churches since the time of Reformation Ph. For your Succession its a mear dream If at any time there was no visible Parish-Churches then was there no Pastors of those Churches