doe erre by their authoritie and the authoritie of their Successors after them to this time no greater authoritie in the meane time clearely ruling ouer the case to the contrarie parte but rather the more it is scanned the more continully it appeareth that their part is still to bée followed and the contrarie parte still to be condemned and accursed ¶ The fourth Chapter That he chargeth the saide Primitiue true Church with sundrie errors wherewith he neither doth nor will nor can charge vs. HEre I haue to present him with an other reason why he shoulde graunt vnto vs the true Churche rather then to the olde Fathers for so muche as he will confesse vs to bée frée from diuers errors that he chargeth them withall most of them also being so great and so grosse that none of the errors that he imputeth to vs can be thought comparable by the iudgement of any man that is any whitte indifferent and not altogether blinded with an huge beame of partialitie And let the Reader lay this to the last Chapter before and conferre all diligently together That he confesseth I say that there may bée a Companie which erreth not onely some principall members but also the whole bodye of it and which erreth obstinately and moreouer whiche erreth the grossest errors that can bée and them in no small number and yet the same companie maye bée the true Churche and in déede also hath bene the true Churche so that no péece of this nor all this together will serue him him I saye to proue our companie not to bée the true Churche And then afterwarde let it bée considered what better or what other stuffe he hath to proue the same and if he haue any suche eyther better or other then this refuse a Gods name to bée of our Churche and séeke after hym thy saluation where else thou canst finde it Well then to come to those other errors that were as he sayth the Primitiue Churches and are not ours and to beginne at the toppe Ar. 35. D. Allen requireth the Protestantes to declare when the true Church decayed To this I answere saith Fulke First Euen in the Apostles time there arose manye heresies whiche did not a little trouble the Churche Secondlye But immediately after the Apostles time while the Fathers of the Churche were earnestly occupied in resisting of horrible heresies by the crafte of Satan some errors and abuses crepte into the true Churche of Christ which at the first because they were small and men occupyed in greater matters were eyther not espyed or not regarded And howe declareth he this Iustinus Martyr was in this error that the Angells lusted after women and therefore were turned into diuells What more Irenaeus affirmeth that our Sauiour Christ lyued here .50 yeares And what more Also both he and Papias the Disciple of S. Iohn helde this error that Christ shoulde raigne a thousande yeares after the Resurrection here in fleshe And what of all this Whereby it is manifest seeyng these auncient Fathers and pillers of the Church were thus stained with errors that the Church in their time could not be free from the same Againe It seemeth also that the Churche in Iustinus his time was in some error about Second mariages and diuorcementes After all whiche he concludeth in the end And so it is euident that the true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles time Where the diligent Reader marketh that he vseth decaying and erring indifferently one for the other As for that which he sayeth there of abuses and corruptions entered into the Church of Christ as a preparatiue to the Religion of the Papistes it belonged to the last Chapter and therefore I noted it there Supra pag. And so much of the Apostles time and also of the time immediatly after the Apostles Let vs procéede and come downe lower Cyprians time was such a time saith he as Cyprian and all the Byshops of Africa decreed in Councell Pur. 287. that those which were Baptized by heretikes shoulde be Baptized againe And therefore it was no such time but that he and all his fellowes might and did erre in some opinions contrarie to the trueth of Gods worde And lower agayne Vnder the Emperours Ar. 15. Constantius Constans and Valence the true Churche was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius what time also Liberius Byshop of Rome was infected with the same heresie Straight after that time did Sainct Hierome florishe whom amongest others in the seconde Chapter he confessed to bée a member of the true Churche And him he chargeth not onely Supra pag. as I alleaged in the last Chapter that he was almost fallen into the heresie of Tertullian in condemning Second mariages Pur. 419. Ar. 46. But also thus in an other place Consider what perilous assertions these be that the Lambe is euery where and that the Martyrs are euerye where this is to destroye the humanitie of Christ and to geue diuinitie vnto the Martyrs I doubte not but Sainct Ieronym if he had quietly considered these absurdities He lacked but such a monitor woulde haue reuoked them as erroneous and hereticall but whyle he rather followed affection then iudgement you may see howe he was deceaued At the same time was the thirde Councell of Carthage and Sainct Augustine one of the Byshops thereof Ar. 89. It he chargeth thus The Councell of Carthage the third Cap. 23. determined that all prayers at the Altar should be directed onely to the Father and not to the Sonne or the holy Ghost Whether this be an error to define That it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost let euery man iudge And to put more weight to this his accusation he addeth But you will except that this was a prouinciall Synode and not a Generall Councell But I answere you it hath the authoritie of a generall Councell because it was confirmed in the sixte generall Councell holden at Constantinople in Trullo But of all others most insolently he insulteth and triumpheth against the auncient Church for ministring the blessed Sacramēt to Infants Ar. 87. I will proue vnto you saith he that the Church of Rome hath falsly interpreted diuers sentences of Scripture and therfore by that which she hath done it can not be doubted but that she may do it One then for example S. Augustine was in this error that he thought Infants must receiue the sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ vnder payne of damnation and was deceiued by false interpretation of this Scripture Except ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man drinke his bloud c. Ioh. 6. This error and false interpretation he affimeth to be common to all the Westerne Church and to Pope Innocent him selfe Contra duas Epist Pelag. ad Bonifacium li. 2. cap. 4. contra Iulianum li. 1. cap. 2. Againe in an other place where D. Allen admonished his Reader saying Pose M.
scient quia ego dilexi te and they shall knowe that I haue loued thee Which all if you also did knowe you would not say thus in one place to vs Euen in the Apostles time when the superstition of Angels beganne to be receiued there was one steppe of your way Pur. 287. which you holde euen to this day Colos 2. iiij Of abstinence from fleshmeat and from mariage Nowe to another error common to the Fathers and to vs Supra ca. 3. pa. 2. diui 2. You sayde in the same thirde Chapter and confessed that they counted Aerius an heretike for teaching against our prescript Fastingdayes and so Iouinianus likewyse for denying the merite of abstinence from fleshe and from mariage and for licensing therevpon Votaries and Priestes to marrie You on the other syde charged the Fathers and saide Pur. 419. that they tooke prescript tymes of Fasting and vnmeasurable so you terme it extolling of Sole life in the Cleargie frō the Manichees Tacianistes Montanistes But you bring no proofe thereof Ar. 45. Onely this you haue in another place Augustine by authoritie of Philaster chargeth the same Aerius with abstinence from fleshe If this bee an heresie then bee all Papistes heretikes which count abstinence from fleshe an holy fast Still you take Richard for Robert These thrée heresies condemned fleshe mariage as pertaining to the yll God and not to the good God according to the heresie of the Valentinians before them So writeth S. Augustine of the Tocianistes or Eucratites Nuptias damnant c. They condemne mariages August ad quoduult haer 25.40 53. and esteeme of them all a like as of fornications and other pollutions neither admitte they to their number any that vseth mariage be it man or be it womā Non vescuntur carnibus easque omnes abominantur They eate no flesh but count all flesh abominable He hath there of Apostolici or Apotactite likewise saying Eucratitis isti similes sunt c. These are like to the Eucratites They receiue not into their Societie them that vse mariage and haue proprietie Such as the Catholike Churche hath both Monkes and of the Cleargie very many Sed ideo isti haeretici sunt c. But therefore these are heretikes because separating them selues from the Churche they thinke that there is no hope for them which vse these thinges that they do not vse Nowe saieth he of the Aerians afterwarde Some saye that these doe not admitte into their Societie but onely such as conteyne them from mariage and haue renounced all proprietie being therein like to the Eucratites or Apotactites Yet from flesh meate Epiphanius saieth not that they absteine But Philaster layeth to them also this abstinence What abstinence and howe from fleshmeate but such as in those Eucratites he had saide afore Sure it is that this Aerius of his maister called Eustathius Gang. con Can. 1.19 Soc. li. 2. cap. 33. had this heresie to whom therfore Concilium Gangrense sayeth Anathema and to all that holde the like to witte that a Christian vsing mariage and eating fleshe in Regnum Dei introire non possit can not enter into the kingdome of God Et spem non habeat Nor hath ought to hope for Though withall he taught Ieiunia praescripta auersanda that the prescript fastes shoulde be detested Dominicisque diebus ieiunandum and to fast on Sondayes iiij Of Ceremonies and Liturgies Ar. 91. Next after this you charge the auncient Church with approuing Ceremonies that were as you thinke vnprofitable and hurtfull because S. Augustine complained them of presumptions and because many of them are nowe abrogated I might here and in many other places exclaime against you as you did often against D. Allen vpon light causes for not quoting your testimonies and that you haue not read them in the authors but taken them out of some blinde or wilfull collector But to spare words all that I can and let the things only to cry agaynst you Doth not S. Augustine in the very same Epistle and the very same Chapter whence your place is taken of certayne that were more earnest for their owne priuate obseruations Au. ep 119. ad Ianuar. cap. 19. then for Gods commaundements as that against dronkennesse say constantly Tamen Ecclesia dei quae sunt contra fidem vel bonam vitam non approbat Yet the Church of God approueth not any thing that is against the faith or against good life And there also playnly distinguished those presumptions from such things as are eyther conteyned in the authorities of holy Scriptures or found in the statutes of Bishops Councels or fortified by custome of the whole Church Saying also in the Epistle next afore to the same man Au. ep 118 ad Ianuar cap. 5. that if the whole Church vse any thing it is a poynt of most insolent madnes only to call in question whether that thing should be so vsed Neither if some such vsages be afterward abrogated doth it folow therof Pur. 265.393.400 Tertul. de Cor. mil. Hier. adue◠Lucif Act. 15. that therfore they were before vnprofitable or hurtfull or not of the Apostles tradition though Tertullian affirme it S. Hierome also euen in Tertullians words or els that the Church is blasphemous which abrogateth them as you conclude For there might be good cause both of that afore and of this after as you sée euen in that decrée of the Apostles which is recorded also in the Scripture Of not eating bloud nor fleshe that hath not the bloud let out of it Likewise in that custome of the Apostles and of the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. for men publikely to praye and prophecie or preache bareheaded Which of Bishops in olde time and nowe also of Doctors yea in many countries of all preachers is not obserued What ordinarie authoritie the Church had in the Apostles time the same it hath still and also the same spirite to vnderstande what are the immutable grounds of Religion and what traditions howe and vpon what causes maye be chaunged Of euery particuler to giue a reason requireth a speciall worke by it selfe but generally the quicker witted maye consider that in a Nation when the fulnes thereof is baptized and the articles of faith throughly rooted there may iustly must néedefully be a great mutation in the Ceremonies specially of Baptismus adultorum and Missa Catechumanorum And so to plant the Euangelicall article of the Resurrection the Apostles vpon Sondayes and in Quinquagesima did forbid Solemne faste and Solemne genuflexions and the Church afterwarde muche more straictly what time the Manichées other heretikes put al their strength to plucke vp againe the Apostles plant But nowe all such heresies being by such diligence of the Church quite confounded and that marueilous article so fastned in all Christian hearts as it is wonderfull specially knowing what resistance and rebellion it hath suffred Now I say the Church might
exauditions partely of curinges are done in so much that the bodies of Geruasius and Protasius Martyrs which laye hidden so many yeares they were Martyred in the Apostles time were reuealed as if they will aske they may heare of many vnto Ambrose and that at the same bodyes one that had bene many yeares blynde very well knowen in the Citie of Millayne receiued his eyes and eye sight Or because such a man had a dreame and such a man in Spirite heard a voyce that he should not enter into the side of Donatus or that he should goe out from the side of Donatus Where hee addeth of these miracles and visions saying Whatsoeuer suche thinges are done in the Catholike Church therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church otherwise not be they done in Donates side or in Luthers or in Caluines Non ideo ipsa manifestatur Catholica quia haec in ea siunt But not therby is the Catholik church made manifest because these things are done in her You translate it that she is not proued therby as though S. Augustine said that also true allowed Miracles visions wherby in the Scripture also it selfe we sée Christ him self and so many other things purposely proued lacke weight and fashion of iust probation Whereas in deede he saith no more of theÌ„ then he saith of Scripture which is obscure not that it wanteth authoritie to proue the Church but that it doth not make the Church manifest requiring therfore the Donatistes to bring such Scripture as needeth no interpreter Sicut non eget interprete Which we alleage saith he out of so many most manifest places for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence growing on continually ouer al Nations euen till Domesday Such Scriptures do make the Church manifest but so do not obscure Scriptures vntill the interpretation be allowed Neither Miracles and visions vntill they be allowed Now the Donatistes would none of the Catholike Church in their time but both we and you confesse it And therefore when we alleage the Miracles done in it you haue not to except agaynst vs by this place of S. Augustine And that againe because we also do apeale with him to such the same Scriptures for manifest triall of the Church so that my vâ—ry first demaund is therof though we vse also other probations to shew that Scripture and all is for vs and nothing for you As he also doth where he saith to the Manichees vpoÌ„ the same matter Aug. coÌ„ ep Fund ca. 4. In Catholicae Ecclesiae c. Many things there be which in the Catholike Churches lappe most worthily do keepe me There keepeth me Consensio Consent of peoples and Nations There keepeth me Authoritas Authoritie by Myracles begon nourished by Hope by Charitie encreased by Antiquitie made firme and sure There keepeth me Successio Sacerdotum Succession of Priestes from the very See of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord after his Resurrection committed the feeding of his sheepe euen to the Bishop that now is There keepeth me finally Iohn 21. ipsum Catholicae nomen the very name Catholike which not without cause among so many Heresies this Churche alone hath obteined Ista ergo tot c. These then so many so great most deare bonds of Christian calling do wel keepe the man that beleueth in the Catholike Church although as yet he vnderstand not the truth which he beleeueth To which place of S. Augustine you pretend to answere saying vnto vs All this you will say maketh exceding much for vs Ar. 69.70 yea but heare that which followeth Apud vos autem c. But with you Manichées and Protestantes where there is none of these to allure me and keepe me sola personat veritatis pollicitatio there ringeth onely a promising of trueth Then to your purpose as you think quae quideÌ„ si tam manifesta moÌ„stratur c. Which trueth if it be shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt is to be preferred I graunt before all those things by which I am holden in the Catholike Church And what of this By this you may playnly see quoth you that though Consent and vniuersalitie Antiquitie Succession and the name Catholike be good confirmation when they are ioyned with the truth yet when a truth is seuered from them it is more to be regarded then they all As though S. Augustine graunted that the trueth might be seuered from them Where he playnly saith also moste sincere wisdome syncerissimam sapientiam that is truth and vnderstanding of it without all corruption to be in the said Catholike Church though the Heretikes will not beléeue so muche but thinke that the Catholikes are grosse heades and blind folowers of mens commaundements But them selues though destitute of all that should moue any man to be of their side yet to haue the truth most manifestly and without all doubt For that cause S. Augustine ioyneth with them in that booke and answereth their foundations as I do yours in this booke shewing that all this glorious talking of trueth is but winde of vayne words One such place more you alleage twise to the same purpose Ar. 14. Pur. 203. De pastoribus cap. 14. To a strayshepe seeking the Church what say you Syr Donatist Partis Donati est Ecclesia The peece of Donatus hath the Church Reade me that out of the Scriptures out of the Shepeheards voyce For out of them do I recite Ecclesiam toto orbe diffusam The Church which is not any mans piece but beginning at HierusaleÌ„ spreadeth ouer al the world Sed illi codices tradiderunt But thou sayst such men trayterously deliuered the holy bookes to Dioclesians ministers and suche men offered incense to the Idols such a one and such a one Quid ad me de illo de illo What is that to me of such a one such a one quia nec de illis vocem pastoris annuntias For it is thy selfe that accusest them But tell me the Shepheards voyce if that voyce accuse one I beleeue it alijs non credo other accusers I do not beleeue Sed acta proferes But thou wilt bring foorth Court rolles wherein their crimes are registred Acta profero And I also bring foorth Court rolles wherein the same mens innocencie is registred Credamus tuis crede tu meis Shall we beleeue thine beleeue thou mine also Non credo tuis noli credere meis I do not beleeue thine and I geue thee leaue also not to beleeue mine Auferantur chartae humanae sonent voces diuinae Let mens Court papers be remoued and let Gods sayings be rehearsed Ede mihi vnam Scripturam pro parte Donati Geue me one place of Scripture for the piece of Donatus or of Luther or of Caluine or of any other broken piece Audi innumerabiles pro orbe terrarum But for the Church of the whole world I am ready to rehearse innumerable
a sacrifice or no and how it is or is not we nede not stand here about it As also because he doth not say that no sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs as you pretend but he speaketh of external sacrifice the definition wherof you may conceiue by that litle which I said cap. 6. pag. 49. and of one certaine externall sacrifice We offer the sacrifice to the one God Aug. de ci li. 8. ca. 27. That prayer to Saintes is not a sacrifice to Saintes who is both the Martyrs God ours At which sacrifice they be named in their place and order In so much that by this one Sacrifice he answereth the Paganes touching certaine dishes of meate brought by some Chrystians to the Martyrs churches euen as I answere you touching prayer made to them Non autem ista esse c. But that these be not sacrifices to the Martyrs he knoweth that knoweth the One Sacrifice of the Christians which is there offered to God Those Christians do meane no more but to haue them there sanctified by the merites of the Martyrs in the name of the Lorde of the Martyrs Let the third example be of ceremonies generally suche as he confesseth here cap. 3. pag. 15. to haue bene in the primitiue church also And two obiections of his against them I haue answered cap. 6. pag. 45. But now he will reproue them out of Scripture also first by his vsual argumeÌ„t ab authoritate negatiue Ar. 19. Because they are destitute of God his word which only is able to giue theÌ„ strength and estimation And yet in other places cleane contrary not only Scripture but also example of the Primitiue church is sufficient for them as where he saith Ar. 21.42 If any thing be allowed without controuersie on both sides it did either procede from the Scripture of God or froÌ„ the Primitiue Church Ar. 48. Iust Apol. 2. or els it is a thing meerely indifferent And to this purpose he citeth Iustinus Martyr who declareth playnly he saith what order of seruice and ministration of Sacramentes our Church vsed before Papistrie preuayled As though the booke or books of seruice were no more then these few lines in Iustinus And yet also to sée the blindnesse of this maÌ„ so litle as he bringeth out of that Martyr yet is there plaine against his CommunioÌ„ booke Water mingled with wine But no one word against the Masse booke yea it is the very suÌ„me of the Masse vnlesse you be so foolish to thinke that the Bishops sermon the Receauing of all present the Carying of it to them that be absent and the Rich mens offering may not be omitted in any Masse nor for any cause Now let vs here against Ceremonies Ar. 19. your authorities of Scripture affirmatiuely We detest and abhorre all your beggarly Ceremonies which you count holy and solemne obseruations For we know that God is not to be worshipped with such thinges but that the true worshippers must worship him in spirite and veritie Ioa. 4. Then belike you detest all Ceremonies and all outward thinges those also of the Primitiue Church yea and of the Scripture it selfe which erewhile you allowed You saw this reply and therefore in another place you would moderate the matter saying The seruice of God hath small neede of furniture Ar. 51. in outward things For God beeing a spirite is not worshipped with outward Pompe but with spirituall and inward reuerence And as for other furniture that is necessarie was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his Successors Notwithstanding the Church was in better case before such furniture was graunted then since Like one that will not hold his peace and yet cannot tell what to say If Gods being a spirite admitteth some outward furniture well ynough then haue you missensed that text The meaning is that outward thinges without the inward man please not God But for all that the inward man may vse outward gestures outward wordes and other outward thinges as Christ him selfe his Apostles and all the Church euer did For so to do is to adore God who is a spirit in spirit truth And touching the other text that you alleage not but allude vnto those weake beggerly elemeÌ„tes Gal. 4. are the Ceremonies of the old law specially after the death of Christ whom they shadowed and much more the Galathians being Gentiles to whom they neuer parteyned and you wrest it against the Ceremonies that are vsed in the administration of the gracious Sacramentes of Christ and that by the order of them that could say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath seemed good to the holy Ghost and to vs. Like as agaynst the Lessons Responses Versicles and suche other distinctions or varieties in the Seruice you alleage Matth. 15. Ar. 20. In vayne do they worshippe me teaching for doctrine the preceptes of men Such is your ignorance in the Scripture by reason of your malice The preceptes of men are those which be of men and not of God as those traditions of the two late Elders Hilleb Sammai béeing partly friuolous as those vayne lotions partly also contrarie to Gods Commaundementes as that of Corban Tit. 1. wherevppon S. Paule biddeth Titus to be earnest wiâ—h the Cretensians that they listen not to Iudaicall fables mandatis hominum and to the preceptes of men that turne away from the trueth Wherevpon the inuentions also of Luther Caluine and all other Heretikes are the preceptes of men and their followers worship they knowe not what Ioan. 4. Pur. 21. and if they be also zelous it is without knowledge Rom. 10. But so are not likewise the preceptes of them to whom our Sauiour saide He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you Luc. 10. despiseth me And therefore S. Paule commaunded them of Syria and Cilicia Act. 15.16 to keepe the preceptes of the Apostles and Priestes that were decréed in the Councell of Hierusalem S. Augustine likewise here cap. 6. pag. 45. embraceth the Ceremonies decréed in Councels of Bishoppes and muche more them that are vsed throughout the whole Churche And you falsifie the Councell of Laodicia when you saye It decreed Conc. Lao ca. 59. that nothing should be song or read in the Churche but the Canonicall bookes of holy Scripture No Syr that did rather your friende Paulus Samosatenus who reiected the Psalmes and Songs which to the honour of our Lorde Iesus Christ Eus li. 7. c. 24. decantari solent are wont to be song saith Eusebius tanquam recentiores as beeing but lately made and set out by men of late memorie Renewing the Heresie of Artemon agaynst the Godhead of Christe the whiche a certayne Catholike doth there confute long afore ex Hymnis a fidelibus fratribus antiquitus perscriptis concentu quodam Eus li. 5. c. 27. By the Hymnes made of olde in meeter by faythfull brethren He
occasion 24. Priesthood and Sacrifice Mot. 21.38 Article 13. Heb. 7. In the 24. Demaund being of the Priesthood and Sacrifice I touch your Apostasie at the very roote For S. Paule saith The Priesthood being translated from Aaron and them of his order to Melchisedec or Christ and them of his order it is necessary that translation of the Law also be made That your Heresie of Caluinisme is not a méere Heresie that is a corruptioÌ„ of Christianitie in one or two pointes but a mutation of the whole new Law almost of Christ it commeth of this I say that you haue made a mutation of the new Priesthood And that you haue chauÌ„ged the new Priesthood or Priesthood of the New Testament I shew because you haue chaunged our Catholike Priesthood For this Priesthood wherin we serue came to vs from no other but from Christ and his Apostles The Priesthood that they delyuered our forefathers and we haue to this day kept the same vnchaunged To be perspicuous I come to particulares First the very Apostolike names Episcopus and Presbyter Note that is Bishop and priest we neuer went about to change them you haue labored to change them into these Superintendent and Elder Wherevpon it followeth that you haue chaunged the Apostolike order as it followeth the Apostles to haue chaunged the Aaronicall order because they chauÌ„ged the former names Pontifex Sacerdos for which we haue no English I touched this here afore in the .6 Dem. pag. 231. and you haue no where answered it but I finde where you haue holpen it For wheras the Fathers keeping those new names Isa 66. s 21. yet according to the Prophesie of Esay vsed euermore also the former names considering that the newe order no lesse then the old is a true species of that genus SacerdotiuÌ„ wheras we accordingly do in translating put the English word Priest not only for Presbyter Pur. 283. but also for Sacerdos you sir translating a passage of S. Cyprians do put the Priestes twise where he putteth Sacerdotes but where he putteth Presbyterum you shun the word Priest which is the very same and put your newe inuented word an Elder Secondly you helpe another argument of ours where you say I would desire none other place in all the scripture Ar. 29. Pur. 297. to ouerthrow the Popish Hierarchie which is the gretest glory of their Church then this place of Paule Eph. 4. He speaketh of Apostles Euangelistes Prophetes Pastors Teachers But where are Popish Byshops Priestes Deacons Subdeacons Exorcistes Cantors or Lectors Acolytes Ostiares By this you declare that you haue chauÌ„ged the order Hierarchie or Priesthood of the Primitiue church wherein as it is infinitly Eus li. 6. ca. 34. witnessed you cannot denie but the same degrées were which here you call Popish And doth not S. Paule him selfe in other places make expresse mention of Bishops Priestes Deacons And so you might aswell by your wise reason out of Ephe. 4. ouerthrow S. Paules Hierarchies Who also in the names of Deacons 1. Tim. 3. includeth subdeacons and the other inferiors as in the name of Priestes Tit. 1. he includeth likewise Deacons themselues And the like is common in the auncient Fathers who yet because Deacons or Ministers is a distinct order Sup. p. 251. do like better to call all vnder Priestes by the name of Leuites Pur. 383. because that was the generall terme in the old Law of all the varieties of them that were not Sacerdotes to call all to-together Clerum the Cleargie or in Clericos or in Clericali ministerio constitutos â—yp ep 66 or ad ordinatione clericaleÌ„ promotos Al which termes S. CypriaÌ„ hath in one Epistle with the names of Episcopus and Presbyter Sacerdos coÌ„mon to them both And it is but your ignorance to thinke that S. Paule should haue named them Eph. 4. considering that he speaketh there onely of the ministerie of the word only of preachers vt iam non circumferamur c. that we be not now caried about with euery wind of doctrine whereas these other are belonging to the ministerie of the Altar Which are two distinct offices as you may sée Act. 13. where some preachers had not orders as yet 1. Tim. 5. where some good Priestes do not labour in the word and doctrine Thirdly the Apostles Bishops Priestes were made by other Bishops and Priestes as also with vs it continueth to this day But yours be onely of Lay mens making as of Kings and other Ciuill Magistrates I passe ouer the difference of liuing Single Marrying as a thing extrinsical touched before in the .21 Dem. Pag. 250. Fourthly your selues confesse our orders to be good ynough in that hauing béen ordered by vs you séeke not to be reordered as Cranmer Parker Grindall Sandes Horne c. whereas we as you knowe account your Orders for no orders Ar. 50.51 To this you say You are highly deceiued if you thinke we esteeme your offices of Bishops Priests Deacons any better then the state of Lay men For we receiue none of theÌ„ to minister in our church except they forsweare your religion so their admission is a newe calling to the ministerie How true it is that you receiue none otherwise I passe that ouer But sir A nevv vvay to giue Orders we also make your ministers to abiure yet after that they be but lay men still And I would ask you if two Catholikes abiure with you one a lay man the other a Priest are they both Priests ipso facto O your diuinitie O your scripture As for the Sacraments of Baptisme Matrimonie we doe not iterate them after you though we supply the Ceremonies because a Bishop or a Priest is not the necessarie sole minister of them as he is of the Sacramentes of orders of our Lordes Body Which is a sounder cause then yours of reteining the forme of woordes and for as much as the Sacramentes take not their effect of the minister but of God For herevppon you allowe you say our Baptisme If that be ynough what néedeth Abiuring Yea belyke with you it is the Sacrament of our Lordes Body if a lay man or wooman also reteyne the wordes for as much as the Sacraments take their effect of God What is this but to deny the Priesthood and so to runne hedlong to Apostasie As that also where to defend Pilkinton not to be a mocke Bishop Pur. 343.428 Ar. 72. you bring no more but his excellent learning and diligent preaching Inueying against our Catholike Bishops as vnlearned or vnpreaching and therefore no Bishops Whereas in déede we that knew both sydes by experience can truly testifie that in Catholike Countries where your Desolation could not yet remoue the Orders of seculare and religious Preachers ther is more preaching to say nothing of the stuffe in so many Churches for so many in one yeare
then with you in ten and namely to declare the effect of the Sacraments according to the Councell of Trent Sess 8. c. 7. which in another place you cite to such as receaue thē Fiftly argumentes néede not you say playnly The spirituall Priesthood is common to al Christian men and women Pur. 450.451.299 1. Pet. 1. as true it is and against all other Priesthood of any Christian men you say in the same place There is no Priesthood to offer sacrifice propitiatorie but onely the Priesthood of Christ according to the order of Melchisedech Heb. 7. By and by after making vs as in a great absurditie to say Christ is not onely our high Priest according to the order of Melchisedech For euery hedge Priest is of the same order Why you call thē hedge Priests looke you But this cannot be denyed that in the Scriptures and in the Primitiue Church certaine Christian men were Priestes otherwise then Lay men and women as the Apostles S. Timothie S. Hierome S. Cyprian c. And therefore then there was some other Priesthood besydes the spirituall Priesthood which is common to all And therefore againe you haue taken away the Priesthood by your owne confession Sixtly and lastly if to salue this deadly sore you will inuent some third kind of Priesthood I say that the primitiue or fathers Priesthood was according to the order of Melchisedech to offer a sacrifice in bread wine The sacrifice of the Masse as Melchisedech and Christ did And therfore you be against the Priesthood because you be against this Priesthood arguing rayling at it al that you can But we Christians to whom this Priesthood is playnly descended from the Apostles and Fathers none of you all being able to shew any later origine of it regard not your arguments they be but obiections And yet to defend the truth more fully for our Fathers and not onely for our selues we solue them euery one But first that the Reader may see whose aduersarie you be herein he shall heare S. Augustine The Manichée had falsified S. Paule making him to say qui sacrificant Au. cō Ad uer leg prophet li. 1. c. 19.20 1. Cor. 10. daemonijs sacrificant They which sacrifice do sacrifice to diuels quasi omnes qui sacrificant non sacrificent nisi daemonibus as if al that sacrifice do not sacrifice but to deuils He therfore sheweth the Apostle not to say qui sacrificant they which sacrifice but quae sacrificant the things that they sacrifice speaking of the Idolatrers They do sacrifice to the diuels and you therefore are communicantes with the diuels if you eate of those sacrifices euen as Israel secundum carnem the Iudaicall people eating of their sacrifices was therby partaker of the Altar in their Temple Deinde secutus adiunxit ad quod sacrificium iam debeant pertinere Then he followeth and addeth to what sacrifice the Corinthians now must pertaine being Christians and Israel secundum spiritum saying The Chalice of blessing which we doe blesse is it not the Communication of the bloud of Christ The bread which we breake is it not the participation of the body of our Lorde vt intelligerent ita se iam socios esse Corporis Christi quemadmodum illi socij sunt altaris That they might vnderstand themselues now to be Communicātes of the body of Christ so as the Iewes are Communicantes of their Altar And then a few lines after The Churche from the Apostles time by most certaine Successions of Byshops to our time and hereafter doth continue et immolat Deo in corpore Christi sacrificium laudis and doth sacrifice to God in Christes Body a sacrifice of praise Psal 49. For this Church is Israel after the spirit from whom is distinguished that Israel after the fleshe who serued in the shadowes of sacrifices by which was signified the singular Sacrifice which now Israel secundum spiritum doth offer Iste immolat Deo sacrificium laudis c. Psal 109. This Israel doth sacrifice to God a sacrifice of praise not after the order of Aaron but after the order of Melchisedech Nouerunt qui legunt c. Gene. 14. The Readers know what Melchisedech did bring forth when he did blesse Abraham And now they be partakers thereof they see such a sacrifice now to be offered to God ouer all the worlde Mala. 1. Et quod Deum non paenitebit c. And where the Psalme sayeth God will not repent him it is a signification that he will not chaunge this Priesthood for he changed the Priesthood after the order of Aaron And not onely S. Augustine but the whole rancke of the holy Fathers doth teach the same such a Priesthood to be and to continue in the Church to offer suche a sacrifice in the forme of bread and wine tearming it after the order of Melchisedech Pur. 295. in so muche that you also confesse and say Those of the olde Writers which compare the celebration of the Lordes Supper with Melchisedeches bread and wine which you say they call sometime the Sacrifice of bread and wine noting that as though it made against Transubstantiation which vayne collection I haue refuted here cap. 8. pag. 148. and also adding further And yet but a sacrifice of thankesgiuing Whether but for thankesgiuing and not also for procuring mercy I haue here at large examined cap. 9. pag. 196. to 204. But that is nothing to the matter which we haue nowe in hande For a Sacrifice of thankesgiuing is and in the olde Lawe was a Sacrifice no lesse properly then a Sacrifice of propitiation And the Sacrifice of the Crosse was both I trow and therefore the Sacrifice of the Altar to be the one what doth that let but it maye be the other also Likewise a memoriall Sacrifice of Christes passion no lesse then a prefiguratiue Sacrifice is a true sacrifice though it be not called his very passion but by a similitude And therefore al that you alleage out of Augustine Pur. 292.316.320 Chrysostome Cyprian Irenée Iustine Ambrose although they saide all as you woulde haue them that this is a memory of Christes passion and not his passion but only in a mysterie is all nothing to the purpose Pur. 292.294.320.321.326 And therefore you haue yet a better aunswere in store We confesse you saye that of the olde Writers it is commonly called a Sacrifice but vnproperly And howe do you shewe that Because * Ambr. ad virg lapsā De virg l. 1. orat in fr. Satyr one of them saith of a virgine that to her death is vnspotted that her Parentes might count her Hostiam viuam a liuing Sacrifice propitiatricem suorum videlicet delictorum a Propitiatrix or procurer of mercy for their sinnes by making intercession for them to God in heauen You might as well argue that S. Paule in saying Christes body by death to be made a Sacrifice Heb. 10. speaketh
peace with Christian charitie And much more do Prouincial Councelles yeeld to the general sine vllis ambagibus without any more adoe and much more againe particulare Doctors And yet you with your swelling of sacrilegious pride with your stubbernes of arrogant Ventositie with your contentiousnes of peuish enuy will not yeeld neyther to Prouinciall nor to general Councel neyther after their confirmation and receauing so much more desperat then those Donatistes of whom he speaketh as they had one Doctor to wit S. Cyprian plainly of their opinion and you haue nere a one and yet will neither yéeld to all the Councels together but against them all come in with your ambages and aske But where is their Scripture as here cap. 7. pag. 89. thinking that you haue a witty deuise for this your tergiuersation when you say Pur. 430. The Councelles that are receiued are therefore receiued because they decreed truely and not the truth receiued because it was decreed in Councels Else why is the determination of the Nicene Councell which is but one beleeued against tenne Councels holden by the Arrianes but that the Nicene decreed according to the worde of God all the rest against it You might aswell say The Scriptures that are receiued are therefore receiued because they are written truely and not the truth receiued because it is written in the Scriptures Els why is the Gospel according to Mathew beléeued and not the Gospel according to the twelue but that the former is the word of God and the other is not But we say that the Scriptures being once receiued into the Canon and the Councels being once receiued by the Sée Apostolike what soeuer they say must be beléeued to be truth and that then none but Heretikes do make exceptions against them And that you therfore be an Heretike who not onely against all Councels so receiued for these 900. yeres but also against the very Nicene it selfe which you your selfe receiue do take your exception of Onely Scripture and that as it were by authoritie of S. Augustine cap. 9. pag. 179. and 173.180 Motiue 12. 28. See Apostolike Now for the Sée Apostolike it selfe which as it was the confirmer so was it both the gatherer with the Emperours helpe and also the President by the Patriarches and other Bishops and sometimes Priestes also béeing her Vicares of all approued Generall Councells what soeuer * Ar. 97. you or any other Heretike affirme to the contrarie without any testimonie I saye in my 28. Demaunde that none euer but Heretikes and Schismatikes did obstinately refuse eyther the fayth or the communion of that Sée Beholde two notable examples one vnder Pope Victor about the question of Easter the other vnder Pope Stephanus about the question of Heretikes Baptisme We shall catche this Ratte in them through his owne rumbling Victor anno 200. Ar. 27.36 Pur. 373. saith he was the first that went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches He passed the bondes of his authoritie in excommunicating of all the Churches of Asia Then manye Bishoppes withstoode him specially Ireneus of Lyons and Polycrates of Ephesus as a Eus li. 5. c. 23.24.25 witnesseth Eusebius But who sayth that he eyther vsurped authoritie or passed the bondes of his authoritie No doubte Polycrates and his fellowes of Asia would so haue sayd if they had béene of your opinion about the Bishop of Rome or if that Bishoppes authoritie ouer all had not béene in those Primitiue dayes a playne matter The Storie was thus The Churches of Asia minor had receyued of S. Iohn Euangelist to kéepe oure Lords Pasch or Easter day not alwayes vpon Sonday but with the Iewes vpon the 14. of the Moone In which custome the Bishops of Rome who had receiued of S. Peter and Paule the other maner did tolerate them so long as it tended to the honour of burying the Law and not to the necessitie of obseruing the Lawe But when they sawe that a b Niceph. li. 4. ca. 36. necessitie was put therein in so much that the other maner was condemned by the Iudaizing Heretike c Tertul. d◠Praes Eus li. 5. ca. 14 Blastus then loe they thought good to tolerate them no longer but S. Victor after that his b Niceph. li. 4. ca. 36. predecessours Pius Anicetus Eleutherius had sent out decrées against that maner and d Eus li. 5. ca. 22. all Bishops had ratified Decretum Ecclesiasticum the Ecclesiasticall Decree seing that they of Asia neither so obeied to walke vnto the truth of the Gospell vsing seueritie when it was high tyme commaunded them eyther to obey without any more adoe or to be depriued of the Churches communion Which censure of his did séeme to sharpe to S. Irenée and other Bishops of his owne obseruance As now also if he would excommunicate them which receaue not the Counsel of Trent it would séeme likewise to many who notwithstanding confesse that he hath authoritie ouer all But what was the end of the matter At length folowed the first Nicene Councel and confirmed the same that the Popes had commaunded in their Epistle to them of Alexandria writing this of the Asianes also You shall vnderstand Apud Theod. li. 1. ca. 9. that the controuersie of Easter is wisely pacified in so much that all our Bretheren that inhabite the East will now hereafter with one accord in keping the same followe the Romanes vs and all you So they promised the Councel And who so refused yet after that to do it were counted obstinate Heretikes Aug. Haer. 29. Soc. li. 6. ca. 10.20 Ar. 37. both in the Gréeke and Latine Church named testarescaidecaticai that is quartadecimane some such being yet in Asia in S. Chrysostomes tyme were by him as Bishop of Constantinople turned out of their Churches no lesse then the Nouatianes Lykewise saith Fulke towching the other case when Pope Stephanus threatned excōmunication to Helenus and Firmilianus and almost all the Churches of Asia because they thought that such as were baptized by Heretikes should be baptised againe Diony Al. ep ad Xystum Papā Succes Ste. apud Eus li. 7. ca. 2.3 4.5 he was misliked by Dionisius of Alexandria and diuers other godly Bishops Cyprian also reproueth him very sharpely for the same opinion accusing him of presumption and contumacie a Cypr. ep 74. Epist ad Pompeium And in his Epistle to b Cyp. epi. 71. Quintus he saith playnly that Peter him selfe was not so arrogant nor so presumptuous that he would say he held the Primacie and that other men should obey him as his inferiours You would make the Reader beléeue that he there saith Peter had not the Primacie wheras he saith expresly in the very same Periode Petrus quem primum Dominus elegit super quem edificauit Eccleam suam Peter whom our Lord chose the first and vpon whom he buylded his Church Neither he nor Dionysius nor Firmilianus denieth the Primacie
can doubt but this present plague and thraldome of the Gréekes is fallen vpon them and the like or worse to fall vpon the like for their departing from the Church of Rome as it was foretolde them full often though you counte it false and vnreasonable so to say And why Pur. 396. because the Affricanes were plagued and subuerted for other sinnes So substantiall are your reasons As if you would say Ten Tribes were not subuerted for their Schisme because the two Tribes were subuerted for other sinnes 29. Traditions Motiue 9. The 29. Demaund mentioneth that the Apostles left to the Church not Onely Scripture as Fulke would proue by the Scriptures and Fathers here cap. 8. pag. 100. to 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. which all I haue aunswered but also vnwritten Traditions wherof no one is against vs and many of them so directly against the Protestants that although he cōfesse them as for exāple the memorie of the dead in the Canon of the Masse to haue the most approued Fathers testimonie to be Traditions Apostolike here cap. 3. pag. 15. to 20. yet he is fayne to denie that eyther they or any Traditions at al be of the Apostle ca. 7. pa. 80. to 89. So as neuer did the Catholikes I say in this Demaund but onely Heretikes Pur. 383.409.412 But against this I find that he alleageth a saying of S. Irene as though by his iudgement we rather be Valentinian Heretikes who with the Fathers here cap. 3. 7. pag. 19. 84. besides Scripture do holde with Tradition of vnwritten verities And Lord how he croweth against D. Allen for alleaging the same saying against the Protestantes vpon their denying of the Machabées not considering that by S. Irenée there they no more be Heretikes who will haue Tradition then they who wil haue Scripture Iren. li. 3. ca. 2.3 S. Irenée him selfe as all Catholikes will haue both But those old Heretikes would in effect saith he haue neither Neque Scripturis iam neque Traditioni consentire c. They would yeeld neither to the Scriptures nor to Tradition For whē they be confuted out of the Scriptures they turne to accuse the Scriptures thē selues as though they be corrupted nor be not Canonicall and that they be ambiguous and that out of them can not be found the sincere trueth by such as know not the Tradition because that was not deliuered by writings but a certayne mingle mangle and the sincere truth by word of mouth Well then saith the Catholike let vs hardly try by Tradition What do they then they say that the Apostles either them selues knew not all things or that they taught their Successors of one sort in open place and these mens Patriarches in secret of another sort Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem c. And when againe to that Tradition which is from the Apostles which is conserued in the Churches by Successions of the Priestes we prouoke those Heretikes who are aduersaries to Tradition as the former were to Scripture they will say that they beeing wyser then not onely the Priestes but also the Apostles haue found the sincere truth Aduersus tales certamen nobis est O dilectissime Against suche we haue to fight O my dearest who as slipery as snakes seeke on euery side to flye What way shall we then take with them Traditionem Apostolorum in toto mundo manifestatam in Ecclesia adest perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire He that list to heare lyes may séeke to these Heretikes and the secrete Tradition which they pretend But all that will heare the truth may in the Church see the Apostles Tradition whiche was published in the whole world Et habemus annumerare And we can reherse them who were of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in the Churches and their Successors euen vnto vs. Who taught nor knew no such thing as these men dote vpon For if the Apostles had knowen straunge mysteries which they taught the perfect Seorsim latenter ab reliquis apart from the rest and priuilie no doubt they would haue committed them specially to those to whom they committed also the Churches And then because it is to long he saith to rehearse al Successions he reckoneth the Successors of S. Peter and Paule in the greatest and auncientest and knowen to all men in the Romaine Church Whose Tradition which she hath from the Apostles comming euen vnto vs by Successions of Bishops we reporting confundimus omnes eos do confound all Heretikes and Schismatikes Et est plenissima haec ostensio And this is a most full demonstration that it is al one quickening faith which from the Apostles is kept in the Church till now and deliuered in trueth Loe now Syr who hath such yll grace to alleage the Doctors against him selfe For who denieth here cap. 9. pag. 165. the authoritie of suche Scriptures as are Canonized by the Church which himselfe confesseth to be the true Church Who also refuseth the Tradition and saith I say not by those Heretikes pretended but euen of the Apostolike Churches euen of the Romaine Church and not now onely but then also when your selfe do graunt that it was the true Church As for vs we reiect neither the Churches Scriptures nor the Churches Tradition but answere all that you detort to maynteine your Heresies and restore it to the right meaning 30 Their owne Doctors Motiue 16. That the Apostles and all men and things that be of them are against our Protestantes and in no poynt with them against vs it is many wayes shewed by the aforesaid Besides all these I note in the next Demaund also their owne masters and felowes namely Luther and Caluine to haue condemned them Such leaders hath our miserable Countrey chosen to followe forsaking the sure guydance of Gods Church in which our Forefathers together with the Catholikes of all other Countries so many ages before prospered in earth and atchiued to heauen 31.32.33 Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent In thrée Demaundes following I do shewe that the rules of Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent taught by Vincentius Lirinensis and the other Fathers doe make for vs and against the Protestantes Which is so playne that Fulke is faine to refuse those rules abusing a saying of S. Augustines as it were for Onely Scripture against them here cap. 7. pag. 80. and cap. 9. pag. 180. Motiue 10.11.28 Arti. 15.26 34. Authoritie The Protestantes finding the Primitiue Church whiche they dare not denie but it was the true Church here cap. 2. to be in many poyntes so playnly against them that they must confesse it them selues as here cap. 3. do hold that the true Church may erre vniuersally and also did erre cap. 3.4 And therefore make their exception against it also cap. 7. pa. 89. And that with pretence of Scripture to warrant their so doing cap. 8. pag. 117. vnto which I haue fully answered Herevpon in my 34. Dem. I affirme
speake All is done still as it was in the Primitiue Church with the selfe same authoritie and with the same affection and discretion if the Iudges doe not swarue from the Churches Lawes 43. Succession Motiue 22. Article 8. Consequently in the next Demaund I say that the true Church must be descended by lineall and continuall Succession from the Apostles and that our Church is so descended and that the Protestantes Church is not so descended About this Fulke doth many wayes contradict himselfe as I will shewe in the next Chapter because he can not tell what to say vnto it Yet to helpe him as much as may be and as I doe vse euery where to frame his arguments to his purpose and to bring them into some order He may say two things first that they may haue the true Church although they haue not Succession secondly that we may lacke the true Church although we haue succession To the first he may referre these words of his owne vnto D. Allen Ar. 26. You are neuer able to proue that any suche orderly Succession according to persons and places was promised to the Church that we should shewe you the performance thereof in our Church Whether that can not be proued my first Demaund here will shew which declareth that S. Augustine hath already proued out of the Scriptures for vs that the Churche should beginne at Hierusalem and from thence grow ouer all Nations continually to the worldes ende as also with our eyes we sée that vnto this our time it hath done And euen the place which you goe about to answere proueth it playnly Continuall Succession of persons in the ministerie I say with D. Allen euen vntill Christes comming agayne Ephe. 4. Christus ascendens c. Christ ascending gaue giftes to men some to be Apostles some Euangelistes some Prophets some Pastors and Teachers to the completing of the holy for the worke of ministerie for the building of the body of Christ Donec occurramus omnes c. Vntill we meete all in the vnitie of faith and of the knowledge of the Sonne of God in a perfect man in the measure of the age plenitudinis Christi of the fulnesse of Christ that is Ephe. 1. of his Church He sayth so expresly vntill the finishing of the Church But that you would not sée you thought better to cauill and say The offices of the Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes were not appoynted to continue alwayes in the Churche but for a time vntill the Gospell had taken roote in the world Why doe you not say the like of the other two Pastors and Teachers if they at the least were appointed to continue alwayes you sée a Succession of Persons And how can Saint Paules saying be otherwise verifyed vnlesse some of those fiue shoulde alwayes continue if not all as the wordes doe rather import For you séeme to deceyue your selfe by thinking that none are Apostles but the twelue none Euangelistes but the foure none Prophetes but the foretellers of things to come Whereas in déede all the Successors of Saint Peter are Apostles as I noted in the .28 Demaund and also whosoeuer else be the first conuerters of any Nation and all the expounders of the Euangelistes and Prophetes are Euangelistes and Prophets which you will not denie if you haue any skill in vnderstanding the Scriptures No difference being betwéene these offices in the beginning and nowe but onely that then they were giuen by miracle and now by order As touching the second you graunt our Church to haue such continuall Succession and inferre therevpon Ergo it is not the true Church here Cap. 2. Pag. 5. because the true Church should at some time or other be driuen out of sight Wherevnto I haue answered Cap. 8. Pag. 144. shewing that you doe fouly abuse the Scripture to that false conclusion and namely that the time of the Churches flying into the wildernesse is not yet come Againe you argue If it be sufficient Ar. 27. or any thing worth to rehearse the names of them that haue orderly succeeded in all ages in the Bishops Sees in an outward face of the Church the Greeke Churche is able to name as many as the Latine Church and in as orderly succession What of that but onely this that they therfore may better claime the Churche then you And yet in trueth these Hereticall and Schismaticall Gréekes can no more shew Succession then you For your false Bishops are now in the Sées of C. Pole of B. Bonner of B. Therlebie c. and yet I trowe you will not thereby claime Succession So these later Gréekes haue not Succession but from them onely who beganne this Separation of theirs and their heresies about the H. Ghostes procéeding c. For in Saint Gregories time whiche is ynough they were in vnitie Nam de Constantinopolitana Ecclesia Greg. li. 7. Epist 63. quis eam dubitet Sedi Apostolicae esse subiectam c. For as touching the Churche of Constantinople saieth he who can doubt that it is subiect to the See Apostolike which thing both our most clement Lord the Emperour and our brother Eusebius Bishop of the same Citie doe dayly professe 44. Apostolike Church Motiue 23. Next vnto this I say that it is we not the Protestants which beleue the Apostolike church because we beleue the Romane church which hath the See of the two most glorious Apostles S. Peter S. Paul which was ment by those Fathers who in their Coūcell added to the article of the créede the word Apostolike therby to specify the better the Catholike Church against such heretikes as durst challenge to themselues the Catholike Church but had no colour to challenge the Romane Church namely that Bishop of Rome which sat in the Apostles chaire that is which orderly and canonically succéeded the Apostles For otherwise the Donatistes and some others we know had their mocke bishop at Rome in a corner whom they sent thither out of other countries to lurke there for a stale to their simple people which thing among others might cause the Fathers in their exposition of the Créede to say rather the Apostolike Church then the Romane Church Ar. 96. Vnto this Fulke hath two shiftes First he saith You are neuer able to answere the arguments that are brought to proue that Peter was neuer Bishop at Rome And then where is al your bragges of Apostolike Sea and succession c Sée here cap. 2. pag. 3. how he confesseth that S. Augustine and many other of the Fathers did likewise alleadge against Heretikes the succession of that Apostolike Sée And therfore consider to whom and for whom it is that now he saith And then where is all your bragges c I would not desire a better cause to discredite quite these absurd Protestantes then that they deny S. Peter to haue béen euer at Rome For who knoweth not that all the auncient writers are against them therein
with them who by his owne confession had in their time the true Church Tenthly because all D. Allens Articles are in effect contained in my Motiues and Demaundes I will examine what he answereth not to my probations for to them or any one of them he lightly answereth not as I say afore but euen to the bare titles of them And for as much as his answeres will soone appeare to be no answers I will examine whether at the leastwise he obiecteth any thing to the purpose to the end that when thou shalt sée that all is so litle or rather nothing at all thou maist perceaue that God for his Churches glory blinded them to send such a booke abroade Which thou shalt againe more plainely perceaue in the eleuenth Chapter where I will lay forth his marueilous grosse and palpable contradictions yea and in great numbers also And againe as plainely in the twelft Chapter where I will display certaine straunge and detestable positions of his and also his ignoraunce in the Scriptures and other learning Theologicall To the which I might but for prolixitie ioyne many ensamples perteining to a falsarie putting him in minde withall of his horrible blasphemies as him selfe also must confesse them to be because he can not auoide it but that the Church against whom he hath poured them is the true Church In the conclusion I will amongst some other things aduertise the Reader what more may be desired for the full iustifying of the booke of Purgatorie though this much be ynough and superabundaunt but for iustification of the Articles that no more can be desired But now let vs come to the perfourming of these our promisses Ar. and Pur. in the margins signifie the page of Fulkes bookes against the Articles and against Purgatorie ¶ A REPLY TO FVLKE In defence of M. D. Allens scroll of Articles and booke of Purgatorie ¶ The first Chapter That he confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation THis I shew briefly and most plainly by his owne words as where he saith The house of refuge or defence may be applied to the Church Ar. pag. 108. out of which is no saluation and in whose bosome it becommeth euery man to rest which shall looke for the refuge and defence of God Ar. 83. And in an other place There is no man of what age or yeres soeuer he be that can be saued except he be a mēber of the Catholike Church Agayne This we affirme that out of the Church there is no saluation Agayne We vtterly denie that beside the true Church Ar. 62. Ar. 76. there was an vntrue church that practised those offices of baptizing and other spirituall actions to the saluation of any man And agayne No man aliue Ar. 73. that knoweth what the true Church meaneth will say that any man can be saued out of the true Church For he that is not a member of the body of Christ can by no meane receiue any benefit of Christ to his saluation Therfore this is certaine that out of this Church none could be saued This then béeing so confessed as in our Church it is also openly practised first in baptisme to take men in then in reconciliation if they went or were cast afterwarde out to receiue them in againe I will stande no longer vpon it but procéede further ¶ The second Chapter That he confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeres after Christ and the knowen members thereof THis likewise will be euident by his owne wordes if the Catholike eare can beare his blasphemies withall first if we consider what he writeth of the Romans and their Bishops both since Bonifacius the third and also afore him Ar 35. Being asked What yere the religion of the Papists came in and preuayled Thus he answereth We may well say that the religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled that yeare in which the Pope first obteined his antichristian exaltation which was in the yere of our Lord 607 when Boniface the third for a great summe of money obteined of Phocas the trayterous murtherer and adultrous Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church And what after that Since that time saith he that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yeare of our Lorde 1414. Wherevpon in other places he saith agayne Ar. 27. Pur. 344 From Boniface the third all blasphemous heretikes and antichristes And agayne Or any succeeded Boniface the third which beside their abhominable life were all heretikes and antichristes And where he speaketh of the olde Doctors by and by he addeth as in an antithesis Pur. 405 Nay rather count vpon the Popes to be pillers of your Church Doctours of your learning and Fathers of your fayth that haue bene within these seuen or eyght hundred yeres By this that he saith of the time after Boniface the third you perceyue his confession as touching the time afore him Yet to make it more playne he shall expressely make him selfe his owne confession Pur. 194. Gregory was the last of all the Romishe Bishops in whom was any sparke of goodnes because Boniface his successor See pag. and all the rest by Gregories owne iudgement and prophecie were all Antichristes And moste manifestly in an other place Pur. 372 where D. Allen vrgeth the succession of the Romane Bishops by example of Ireneus Cyprian Tertullian Optatus Hierome Augustine and Vincentius Lirinensis who confounded therewith all heretikes and saith It is a straunge thing that the Fathers hauing then store of Apostolike Successions did euer choose out for the warrant of their fayth from amongst the rest the Romane Seate and nowe when there is no Apostolike Churche lefte in the whole worlde but it that they will not haue vs referre our fayth to it which was euer of all other moste free from falshood To this Fulke in his aunswere saith That these men specially named the Churche of Rome it was because the Churche of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles And a litle after As for that which M. Allen counteth so straunge it is for lacke of skill and right iudgement For the same cause that moued those auncient Fathers to appeale to the iudgement of the Churche of Rome moueth vs nowe to condemne the Churche of Rome of heresie Wherefore did they reuerence the Churche of Rome Aske Tertullian he answereth True doctrine in the true Churche hovv long because it had by Succession reteyned euen vntill his dayes that fayth which it did first receyue of the Apostles Therefore it was a true Churche therefore it was an Apostolike Churche This answere he learned of his master Caluine who in his Institutions first putteth downe our allegation saying Cal. Ins li. 4. ca. 2 nu 2.3 Magnifice illi quidem suam nobis Ecclesiam commendant Allegant enim
eam apud se initio sana doctrina sanguine Martyrum bene fundatam perpetua Episcoporum Successione conseruatam fuisse ne intercideret Commemorant quanti hanc Successionē fecerint Irenaeus Tertullianus Origenes Augustinus alij that is They in deede set foorth vnto vs their Churche very gloriously for they alleage that beeing in the beginning well founded amongest them with sounde doctrine and with the bloud of Martyres it was by the continuall Succession of Bishoppes preserued from decaying They report out of Irenaeus Tertullian Origene Augustine and others howe highly they esteemed this Succession And then he putteth herevnto his owne aunswere saying Cum extra controuersiam esset nihil a principio vsque ad illam aetatem mutatum fuisse in doctrina c. that is Considering that it was a playne case that from the beginning euen vntill that time nothing was chaunged in doctrine the holy Doctors tooke in argument that which was sufficient for the ouerthrowing of all newe errors to witte That they oppugned the doctrine which euen from the verye Apostles them selues had bene inuiolably and with one consent reteined This graunt both of the master and of his Scholar as more by a great deale then in this Chapter we néeded The true Churche not onely to haue continued so long it selfe but also to haue kepte inuiolably and generally with one accorde the true faith and true doctrine which of the Apostles thē selues she had receiued The like he confesseth of our owne Countrey also Ar. 49. where he saith The Church of the Brytaines before Augustine whom Saint Gregory sent from Rome to conuert the English in our said countrey of Britannie came in with Romish seruice had they not trow you Authentical Seruice which continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time To which confession let it be added out of S. Bedes Storie that the a Bed hist li. 2. ca. 4.2 li. 3. ca. 25. greatest point wherein the Christian Brytons and our Apostle S. Augustine differed was about the kéeping of Easter day and that also not so great as in olde time betwéene S. Victor of Rome and the Christians of Asia as this man ignorantly b Pur. 371. here ca. 10. pag. somwhere affirmeth that is to say not whether it should be alwayes kept with the Iewes vpon the verye day of the full Moone according to the heresie of the c Aug. heresi 29. Tessaresdecatite or Quartadecimani for that obseruation d Eus in vita Const li. 3. ca. 28. Britannie as the Emperour d Eus in vita Const li. 3. ca. 28. Constantinus witnesseth detested no lesse then other prouinces at the time of the Nicene Councell but onely vpon what e Beda supra sonday it should be kept So then this being their greatest difference and yet therein also the right obseruation being that which was brought from Rome as no man will denie you sée what graunt this man must make as to Britannie so likewise to Rome at that time to witte not onely the true Churche but withall the same faith which the Apostles taught though in this Chapter as I haue alreadie said we looke no more but for the true Church Which same true Church he graunteth againe many other wayes vnto the Romanes and their Bishops in that he geueth it to sundry notable personages and companies that were in vnitie and in one Church with the said Romaines as to the auncient Doctors and Councels to the Martyrs Monkes and other Christians not onely that frequented those Cryptes or holye vautes vnder the heathen and persecuting Emperours but also that gathered themselues afterward in those magnificall newe Temples vnder the Christian Catholike Emperours and finally to those Catholike Emperours themselues euen to Mauritius who liued with S. Gregory Ar. 60. Of the Doctors his confession is this The most approued writers Tertullian Cyprian Origen Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostamus Ieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. were doubtles members of the true Church of Christ Againe Ar. 71. The Church of the Arians was not the Catholike Church but Athanasius and a a Such is his skill in the storie of that time few other that were banished and persecuted were the true Catholike Church Againe b Ar. 59. Iustinus Martyr and Irenaeus two of the most auncient authenticall writers that the Church next vnto the Apostles had And againe c Pur. 434. The old doctors had their measure of Gods spirit Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods spirit and both martyrs Againe Pur. 405. The Doctors of Gods Church Augustine Ambrose Chrysostome Basill c. Againe It is a good argument Ar. 27. that the Popish Church is not the Church of Christ because it was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp in so much that you can name all the notable persons in all ages in their gouernment and ministerie and especially the succession of d A proper distribution the Popes in all ages to be ours and yet the Apostles Doctors to be his Sapientes confitentur non abscondunt patres suos quoth Eliphaz against Iob. cap. xv Popes you can rehearse in order vpon your fingers But our Church which hath not had so many registers chroniclers and remembrancers hath perhaps fewer but yet honester men to name we can name Peter Paul c. Iustinus Irenaeus Cyprianus Athanasius Hilarius Ambrosius Augustinus Gyldas c Then as touching auncient Councels thus he saith f Ar. 97. The foure best generall councels were gathered by our Churche Againe g Pur. 430. Pur. 296. If any Councell decree according to the Scriptures as the Councell of the Apostles did Act. 15 and the Councell of Nice with diuers other we receaue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God To this place of Doctors and Councels pertaineth that also which he confesseth of the Church that resisted and ouercame the olde heresies as where D. Allen had said It is not you that shall outface Gods Church she hath by the spirit of God beaten downe your proudders the Arrians the Macedonians the Anabaptistes as the Donatistes c. and all your predecessors He answereth 297. You boast that your Church hath beaten downe our proudders the Arrians Macedonians Anabaptistes It was the Church of Christ that ouerthrewe those Heretikes And in an other place likewise Ar. 10. I demaund saith D. Allen what Church hath mightely gone through borne downe fully vanquished all heresies in times past aswell against the blessed Trinitie as other articles of our Religion I answere saith Fulke the true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions contrarie to the worde of God as her dutie was and fought against them with the sworde of the spirite which is the word of God and by the aide of God obtained the victory and triumphed ouer them So did the fathers of the primitiue Church from time to time confute heresies by the
whatsoeuer wee doe Also To geue to them that are newly Baptised a temper of mylke and hony and from the day of their Baptisme forbid dayly washing all the weeke after v. As touching Purgatorie and Praying for the dead But for Purgatorie and Praying for the dead because his whole booke is of that matter he is most profuse in charging that auncient true Church both fathers and people thereof and therfore I must stand the longer hereabout specially because the Reader shall sée therein as in a notable example to what shamefull confessions against them selues they are driuen whensoeuer they take in hand to answere throughly to any learned Catholike that hath throughly written of any controuersie And first I will shewe what he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times secondly of the whole Churche in some of those times thirdly of the glorious originall that they referre it vnto and lastly of the shamefull original or head that he referreth it vnto and them also for it j. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it And for the first to beginne alowe and so goe vpwarde Pur. 158. Bernard saith he is a very late writer and therefore his authoritie with vs is of small accompt in such cases as he followeth the common error of his time I take this in the way without our compasse yet not without good cause that conferring the times both within and without those first .600 yeares thou maist beholde how he chargeth both a like Well then to come nowe into our compasse Pur. 166. of S. Gregorie thus he saith When the proofe commeth you leape but 600. yeares from Christ to Gregories Dialogues from which time I will not denie but you may haue great store of such stuffe And not afore that time likewise Theodoret was an .100 yeares before S. Gregory Pur. 123. and what of him and his time Oecumenius and Theodoretus saith he were writers about that time when corruption of doctrine had greatly preuayled Againe before that time from the yeare .430 vp to .360 much about one time these did florish Augustine See M. Rishtons table Ambrose Hierome Paulinus Efrem Chrisostome Basil and Epiphanius And what of them and their time I haue alreadie rehearsed what he saith of S. Augustine vpon his booke De cura Pur. 315.317 that he woulde hold the common opinions receaued in his time and that he was willing to mainteine the superstition that was not throughly confirmed in his time 349. As againe If he had diligently examined the Common error of his time of prayer for the dead he would not so blindly haue defended it as he doth in that booke De cura pro mortuis agenda and else where And againe In celebration of the Sacrament 326. the superstitious error of that time allowed prayers for the dead generally and speciall remembrance of some in the prayers as of Monica Patritius the parents of S. Augustine 78. Againe But Augustine speaketh of the amending fire in the place alleaged by M. Allen. He doth so in deede but Augustine had no ground of that fire but in the common error of his time 161. And againe Concerning Augustine that error of Purgatorie was somewhat risely budded vp in his time Then of Paulinus 322. Purgatorie in those dayes was but euen a breeding and yet not throughly shaped out of prayers for the dead and such other superstitious ceremonies as were vsed about the departed How handsomly he agréeth here with him selfe I dissemble till * Contr. 46.47 the 11. Chapter Nowe of Ambrose and others Ambrose in deede alloweth prayer for the dead as it was a Common error in his time Pur. 320 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Beda Ephraim Ambrose Moreouer Chrysostome and Ieronym allowed prayers for the dead 194. 370. Then of Epiphanius Because the olde Liturgies vsed to make memorie of all sortes of men that were dead in Christ he expoundeth it according to the error of his time that this memorie was a prayer for the sinners for the iust as Patriarkes Prophets c a signification that they were inferior to Christ a simple cause why they should be remembred but this shift he is driuen vnto So S. Augustins exposition of the like practise 279.280 August euc 110. ad dul q. 4. saying When the sacrifices either of the Altar or of any kind of Almes be offered for all men departed and baptized for the very good they are Gratiarum actiones thanks giuing for them that be not very euill they are Propitiationes procurements of mercy for the very euil although they be no succor to them being dead yet they are certayne comforts to the liuing He condemneth it likewise in these words These matters stand al vpon a false supposition that any prayers are auailable for the dead which when it can not be proued it is in vaine to shew who taketh profite by them who not And so much of that time yea and of more then that time where he said before the times of Efrem and Ambrose Let vs now ascend to Constantinus Magnus his time who was the first full Christian Emperour and beganne his raigne soone after the yeare .300 Pur. 313. In the buriall of Constantinus sayth he there is mention of prayer for his soule according to the error of the time which was * Inough for any Christian man the time euen of the first Nicen Councell also and he buried in the Gréeke Church at Constantinople Long afore that againe about the yeare .200 florished Tertullian and Origines of that time so he saith after a certaine saying of Origens alleaged By this place it is manifest Pu. 249. that Origen whom notwithstanding here a little after we shall haue for the founder of Purgatorie and the East Churche in his time acknowledged no Purgatorie paines Againe This one testimonie of Origen shall testifie what the iudgement of the Greeke Church was concerning Purgatorie and prayers for the dead from the Apostles time vnto his dayes Pag. To Origens place I must answere in the ninth Chapter but nowe doe you say on I wotte well superstition in the Latine Church was somwhat forwardes in as much as there was the seat of Antichrist appointed to be set vp Where by the waye may be noted his For the .xii. Chapter ignorance being the foundation of his malice that he knoweth not all the old heresies to haue sprong of the Gréekes wherevpon also were holden in the Gréeke Church those first foure generall Councels against them and not of the Latines but contrawise the Romaine Church specially to be commended of the fathers Vinc. Lir. cap. ix Ruf. in expo Symb num iii. For maintaining alwayes most earnestly susceptae semel Religionis integritatem the puritie of
comming were in hell That Abrahams bosome was in hell or in the lower partes That only Martyrs and perfect men are priuileged of God to goe to Paradise That all small offences must be punished after this life where the prison is and the vttermost farthing to be payed Then for prayers a litle after And therefore sayth he it is not otherwise to be thought but that the Montanistes vpon the grounde of this opinion not content with the oblations for the dead whiche the Church then had by peruerse emulation of the Gentiles Oblations of thanks giuing also are heathenish and yet were but oblations of thankes giuing they added also prayers for the spirites of them that were dead whereof Tertullian maketh mention And that you may not doubt whether he charge vs alone or also the auncient Fathers with all this goe to his wordes alleaged out of the same place in this Chapter by me afore beginning thus And this was a great corruption of those auncient times that if the Gentils or Heretiks had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse c. After all this he concludeth in the ende saying Wherfore it is left that Montanus and his felowes were the first that taught prayers for the dead to be profitable And agayne Therfore Aërius was not the first that held our opinion but Mōtanus before him was the first that held your opinion throughly Mary you haue played the man in déede and performed I trow euery iote of the vaunting promise that you made a litle before when you said Pur. 410. That we can not reade out of the word of God we shal heare of Purgatorie among the Paganes Carpocratians Heracleonites and Montanistes of whose heresies and pestilent practises the whore of Babylon that is as your owne mouth hath here confessed the Church at the farthest by S. Augustines time hath pacht vp her Purgatorie and sacrifices for the dead as by and by I shall declare Thus I haue shewed how he noteth the true Church for so many particular errors of ours as about Ceremonies about the Crosse about the name of Sacrifice about Fastingdayes and abstinence from certaine meates about Sole life of the Cleargie and vowe of virginitie about merite of the same of abstinence about inuocation of Saints and worshipping of their Relikes about Purgatory and reliefe of the soules in Purgatory and that they were so much addicted therevnto that they counted the contraries to be Heresies and béeing opposite to the holy Scriptures and Traditions of the Apostles vj. As touching the Popes primacie To all these errors I will yet adde one more which he maketh so much of that he ascribeth the Apostasie of the Church by him imagined to the same Which for all that I will here shew to be imputed by him also to the true Church that in the second Chapter we heard him to confesse It consisteth in the matter of the Popes Superioritie To begin therfore with him an high come downward along the true Church vntil it And yet no mā then in the vvorlde that vvent out frō the Pope Ar. 47. Ar. 36. vanished quite away forsooth vpon a soden by force of a summe of mony giuen taken of Bonifacius the third and Phocas the Emperour thus he hath first of Pope Victor Victor went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches And againe Victor Bishop of Rome about the yere of our Lord 200. passed the boundes of his authoritie in excommunicating of all the Churches of Asia Afterwarde he noteth Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome for the like in S. Cyprians time for medling with Afrike Asia and Spaine Furthermore Anastasius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius Bishops of Rome all in a row chalenged prerogatiue ouer the Bishops in Aphrica by forging of a false Canon of the Nicene Councell And againe Celestinus Bishop of Rome dealt hardly with the Nouatians And there in the end By these examples it is plaine that the mysterie of iniquitie beganne to worke or as he spoke there a litle before The Popes authoritie first beganne to aduaunce it selfe in Victor Cornelius Stephanus Anastatius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius and Caelestinus And in an other place of some of them againe Pur. 255. The Nicen Councell the first and the best was corrupted with counterfected Canons by the Bishops of Rome to maintaine their vsurped authoritie in the dayes of S. Augustine And in the nexte Chapter we shall heare him call the Churche in Innocentius his time Pur. 148. the companie which hath the Pope for their head Item the Pope and al them that take his part Finally to come to S. Gregories time where D. Allen saith thus So if thou would know whether that place that our aduersaries impudently doe alleage out of Gregorie the great against the Soueraigntie of the See of Rome Pur. 305.310.194 was in deede written for their seditious purpose beholde the practise of the same father and thou shalt finde him selfe exercise iurisdiction at the very same time when he wrote it in all Prouinces Christianed throughout the world both by excommunication of Bishops that gouerned not well by often citation of persons in extreeme prouinces by many appeales made vnto him by continuall legacies to other Nations sent either to conuert them to the Faith or to gouerne them in their doubtfull affaires and by all other exercise of spirituall iurisdiction c. He in his answer is driuen to say to this The practise of Gregorie although it were much more modest then of his Successors yet can it not be excused but it was contrarie to his doctrine whereby he reproueth an other to wit the Bishop of Constantinople in that he was not altogether cleare him selfe As though either he or any his successor vsed the stile of vniuersall Bishop and not all the cleane contrarie Seruus seruorum Dei Seruaunt to Gods seruauntes All this I haue so copiously alleaged out of him though not so copiously as I might for these thrée purposes First that the Reader might clearely sée that in so many pointes he confesseth him selfe and his fellow protestantes to dissent from them whom he confesseth to haue bene of the true Churche Secondly that againe he confesseth vs in the same points to agrée with the same Thirdly therefore and especially that he hath not for these pointes and so neyther for such as depende of these iust cause to denie vs the true Churche Note vvell vvhosoeuer seeke the Churche which he so graunteth to them that holde the same pointes and that vpon the same groundes and as earnestly or if he will euen as obstinately as we doe nowe condemning their aduersaries therein of heresie and so consequently of separation from the true Churche howsoeuer them selues rather are charged by him to haue receiued of older heretikes their opinions but that contrariwyse wée are for so muche to bée more excused then they as wée
And the same answere take you to that you obiect to vs in like sort againe in one of the places aboue noted saying Of the Colliridianes you learned to make Images of the virgin Mary and worship them and her with offering of candles c. as they did of cakes c. Epiph. li. 3. Haer. 79. These Collyridianes heresie was this that certayne women at a certaine solemne time of the yere certaine dayes together did decke a square table and vpon it Offerebant panem c. They did offer a cake in the name of Mary as if Mary were eyther a God or a Priest and women her ministers to sacrifice for her So saith Epiphanius confuting thē at large and shewing that women could neuer sacrifice and that none but one is to be adored as God though our Lady be moste honorable Sit in honore Maria Pater filius Spiritus sanctus adoretur Reuera sanctum erat corpus Mariae non tamen Deus My purpose is here but to answere else if any man desire testimonies for our Images for our vse aboue them he may reade D. Saunders booke and many other of that matter It is inough for me here that Fulke him selfe hath acknowledged Supra ca. 3. pag. Tertullian to hearse it as a thing then vndoubted that our crossing of our selues which is a making of Imagesa nd a great religion to the same commeth vnto vs from the Apostles by tradition And because we are thus come from Images to the Sainctes let vs heare what more you haue against the Fathers and vs in that behalfe ij Of Inuocation of Sainctes and worshipping of their Reliques You remember since the thirde Chapter that by your owne report the true Church counted Vigilantius an heretike for denying the Inuocation of Saintes and the worshipping of their Reliques of which and of their Images againe Supra pag the case is all one But now you will proue that the Churches opinion rather was heresie for thus you say to vs for that matter Ar. 21. Of the Ossenes you receiued the superstition of Reliques for they vsed to take the spittle and other filth from the bodyes of Marthys and Marthana which were of the seede of Elxai that is In peregrinatione religion ergo great Sainctes with them and vsed them to cure diseases as Erasmus witnesseth at Caunterbury were kept the clowtes that Thomas Becket did occupie to wipe of his sweat to blow his nose on which were kissed as holy Reliques and thought also to be holsome for sicke folkes Epiph. li. 1. Tom. 1. Haer. 19. This againe maketh as much against our Reliques as the Valentinians Crosse against our Crosses and the Carpocratians Images against our Images Epiphanius telleth that this Elxai was in Traianus time a great master of that sect and that Marthys his kinswoman and Marthana his sister In the Ossenes countrey were adored in their life time as Gods Pro dijs adorabantur c. Because they were of the said Elxai his stocke quarum etiam sputa c. which womens spittle also and other filthes of their bodies the foresaide heretikes in that countrey tooke to them in auxilium videlicet morborum as to cure diseases nihil tamen efficiebant but yet without any effect at all As for Erasmus he knoweth nowe if he did not afore what it is to haue Religion in dirision and you may remember from whose body were caried to the sicke Sudaria vel Semicinctia Act. 19. and their diseases and euill sprites went awaye therewith Open your mouth also against those Napkins and call them likewise Clowtes for sweat and for the nose Or rather doe you applie them with good counsaile to your disease also Chris To. ◠De vita Bab contra Gentiles as S. Chrysostome applieth them and the Reliques of the Martyr Babylas together vnto the Paganes declaring thereby most excellently that Christ must néedes be God séeing he coulde geue such passing power to the clothes and bones of his seruaunt Ar. 22. You say moreouer to vs Of the Cayanes you learned to call vpon Angels Epiph. li. 1. To. 3. haere 38. Those heretikes worshipped Cain Iudas such like litle estéemed Abel such others yea and some of them also Christ him selfe They said also that none could be saued vntill they had gone through all sinnes And therfore committed all abhominations referred them to this Angel that Angel with this inuocation O tu Angele vtor tuo opere O tu potestas ago tuā actionem O thou such an Angell I worke now thy worke O thou such a power I now do thy actiō And this with them was called perfecta cognitio Epip Haer. 26. 21. 27. euen doctorship it selfe They agréed in this with the Simoniani Gnostici and Carpocratite who in their beastlines directed the like most horrible inuocations to God him selfe whom they termed Patrem vniuersorum Which is as substantiall an argument against all inuocation of God as the other is against the inuocation of Angells Simon Magus was you know in the Apostles time He inuented many heauens and many names of Angells placing these in this heauen and those in that heauen with sundrie sacrifices for men to offer by them that they might so bée brought at length to the Father of all And that none might otherwise be saued Epip Haer. 21. except he learned hunc mysticum ductum this mysticall passage and howe to offer suche Sacrifices by those Angels to the Father of all Against these fables it is that S. Paule instructeth the Ephesians and Colossians in those two Epistles so like in wordes also Colos 2. that no man deceyue them with those inuocations of Angelles Religion non tenens caput not holding the heade Iesus Christ But otherwise holding hym for the heade that wée are brought to the Father by the holye Angells as by Christes ministers Hebr. 1. who séeth not in the Scriptures in infinite places And so doth the Churche make all her petitions all through Christ our Lorde Per Christum dominum nostrum to none shée commendeth her otherwyse neyther in heauen nor in earth so doe we all praye and desyre to be prayed for one of another Apoc. 1. Apo. 4. v. 5 5. ver 6. with Heb. 1 ver 14. Apo. 1. ver 16.20 Heb. 3. ver 1. Apo. 19.22 Apoc. 3. and so prayed S. Iohn saying Grace and peace to you from God the Trinitie and from the seuen Spirites that are before his throne and from Iesus Christ according to his humanitie putting Christ in the last place that he myght so more hansomely adde the rest which he had to saye there of him And this in that verye booke out of which the Protestantes abuse two places against the worshipping of Angells forgetting also where in the same booke God doth promyse to make the obstinate Iewes to come and to adore before the feete of one Angell Et
antiquarie saith against antiquitie of whom also for so saying Pamelius a farre better antiquarie then he saith thus Quod quà m sinistrè detorqueat Rhenanus ad dies natalitios Ethnicorum nemo ignorare debet c. Rhenanus turneth this place of Tertullian from the right meaning very vntowardly to the byrthdayes of the Gentiles Howbeit in my iudgement Rhenanus there might be better construed not to say that the oblations of Christians were euer for their owne birthdayes but that vpon the byrthdayes of the Martyrs which the Church did celebrate with the solemne oblations of the Altar many of the people kept drunken feasting as the Gentiles did euery one vpon his proper byrthday Which drunken vtas the Church was fayne to tolerate for a time but afterwarde the Canons of the Nicene Councell and others following did forbid it and chaunge it into almes If you could shewe those Canons we might be more certayne of his meaning Playne it is that he speaketh very confusely of birthdayes And playne agayne it is that suche rioting was vsed of some in Paulinus whom he there citeth and S. Augustines times long after the Nicene Councell See Rhenâ— himselfe 〈◊〉 Tert. ad Mâ—tyres num â— And agayne most sure it is that the Church alwayes from the beginning hath vsed and no Councell euer did forbid the kéeping of the Martyrs birth-dayes with oblations of the Altar Finally Rhenanus in those annotations is full of scapes ouersightes and noted accordingly by the learned of this time very much though no yll meaning Beeres to cary home the Corpses One error more you charge vs withall about the dead touching their bodies as the former were touching their soules Ar. 22. George the Arian Bishop of Alexandria inuented Beres to cary dead corpses charging all men to vse them for his owne aduauntage as do you Papistes your Bearing clothes and other toyes for funerall pompes Epiph. li. 3. tom 1. haer 76. Epiphanius doth not say that George inuented Beres but that he deuised to haue them in a certayne number His wordes are these to shewe the miserable couetousnes of that man No trade almost so base no thing so meane whereof he sought not gayne For so muche as Beres for the dead he deuised to make the number of theÌ„ certayn without those that he ordeined no corps of the dead specially of strangers was buried non propter hospitalitatem not for any charitie towards strangers but as I haue said for lucres sake For if any buried a corps otherwise he came in daunger Now if this or the like miserablenes be in any Bishop of ours or yours eyther to racke his people or to vsurpe the liuing of his Cleargie what is that agaynst Béeres or Bearing clothes or comely pompe of funerals or against the Church that vseth them specially your selfe also commending in your Geneua Church Pur. 22â— suche Ceremonies as are conuenient for the reuerent laying vp of the Corps vnlesse you thinke it much for the Church to reape their Carnalia to whom she soweth Spiritualia or would prouide for your selfe a Béere Bearing clothes against you shal be buried 1. Cor. 9 rather then to pay the common duties to your parish Church Thus haue I folowed you through all the errors common to vs with the auncient true Church taken as you saye of the Gentiles or of Heretikes but as I haue playnly shewed not any one of them so nor so What more you haue of them belongeth to the eyght and ninth Chapters where I haue promised to answere all your testimonies out of Scripture and others about any matter to day in controuersie and thither I referre the Reader for the last error also about the Popes Superioritie hauing nothing here to be answered because though you say that the auncient Church had that error also yet you do not say that it tooke it of the Gentiles or of any Heretikes The second part Concerning the errors that he layed Cap. 4. to the Fathers and not to vs. j. Touching the heresies which were in their times Now followeth the second sort of the Churches errors that is those errors which you lay to the auncient true Church and not to vs also To answere you therevnto likewise and that very briefly What a thing is this that you charge the Church in the Apostles time with the heresies that were in the Apostles times And the same Church agayne in the thrée Arian Emperors time with the heresie of Arius As if a man would charge the same Church now that is our Romane Church with your heresies For you say Ar. 15 35. Dem. 45.46 not only Pope Liberius of whom I must answere in the tenth Chapter but the true Church was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius And you bring in the heresies of the Apostles time to declare that euen then the Church decayed counting it also all one to erre and to decay And yet of your owne imagined Church that in the time of Pope Bonifacius the third fled into the wildernes you can say thus Where she hath not decayed Ar. 16.15 Infra ca. 11 cont 31. but bene alwayes preserued D. Allen notwithstanding when he saith that the Church alwayes stoode still and stedfast whilest all other Congregations as Arrians c. haue decayed must be controlled and tolde of the persecutions vntill the time of Constantine and of great detriment vnder Iulianus the Apostata and of a great Eclipse vnder the barbarous Gothes c. Besides the foresaid infection vnder the thrée Arrian Emperors If amid those persecutions and heresies it had not bene alwaies preserued then you might haue said that it had decayed You shew wel that hell gates haue fought sore against it but you shewe not that they haue at any time preuailed Yea the truth is in my Booke of Demaundes in the second Demaund you haue it that the Churche alwayes preuailed according to Christes promise and predictions and that so cléerely and so gloriously that both the persecuting Romane Emperours gaue ouer at length their obstinacie and vaine kicking against the pricke submitting themselues to the very same Church which afore they persecuted yea moreouer continuing Christians euen to this day and also all heresies Arrians and others vanished quite away neither the persecutions being ought els in effect but an occasion of innumerable Martyrs the commodities of whom we heard a little Supra 55. Greg. â—ral li. 9 7. before out of S. Augustine nor againe the heresies ought els but an occasion of so many most worthy Doctors both Gréeke Latine and their most excellent writinges at which to this day all the later heretikes doe quake and tremble by which to this day the Catholike Church alwayes conquereth and triumpheth ij Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus Which Doctors if any of them haue erred in some thing or other yet this is notable that not so much as in their errors or
any one error of theirs they are of your side The Luciferians and the Donatistes had for them the error of S. Cyprian and of his Councell in Afrike and therewith they vrged the Catholikes very sore as we sée in S. Hierome and in S. Augustine But the Protestantes I say haue not so much as any error of any father to vrge vs withall And to charge the Churche with the errors of those Fathers as you doe What a thing againe is that as if you would charge Pope Stephanus and the other Catholikes that erred not with the foresaid error of S. Cyprian For so you charge the Churche in the times of Papias Iustinus Martyr and Ireneus with their errors to shew that it decayed at least immediately after the Apostles time But at leastwise you will say some Fathers haue erred in some thing and therefore it is true that the Fathers may erre Why syrs Do we attribute infallibilitie to euery father Deceaue not the people Puâ— 383.432 make not as though you had infringed the fathers authoritie when you haue shewed that a father hath erred that is not the point betwene vs therein we agrée together But this it is that we charge you with that you resist their full and whole consent For to these we ascribe infallible trueth To the Canonicall Scriptures and tradition of the Apostles without any limitation at all in matters of Religion To the decrées of Peter and his Chaire because it is the rocke of the Church and to the whole Church and therefore againe to the Consent of the Fathers and to Generall Councells confirmed by Peters Successor because these two imploy the whole Churche Yea also to Prouinciall Councells confirmed by the same Chaire And therfore any one of these wée saye can not be against any other of these no more then Canonicall Scripture can be against Canonical Scripture And therfore againe if against these or any one of these there be as it may be any Doctor or Doctors any prouinciall Councell or any Generall Councell it is therein with vs of no authoritie as you sée in Sainct Cyprian and his Councell of Afrike But yet so long as the matter is not plainely against these the particular Doctors and Councell are with vs of great authoritie though some more then some according to the persons number question and other circumstaunces And herevpon it is that we are not hastie as you are to charge them with errors when they did not erre nor also to reueale and to amplifie their errors when they dyd erre but rather when you reueale them and amplifie them to couer them and make the least of them Iren. li. 2. cap. 39.40 so farre as trueth will permitte vs. Nowe the trueth is that séeyng the Gnostici saide that Christ beganne to preache in the beginnyng of his thirtieth yeare and preached but one yeare and then suffered in the twelfth moneth of the same yeare being so of the age of thirtie yeares to signifye their thirtie Aeones Ireneus had occasion hereby to racke the age of Christ not onely aboue thirtie yeares but also towarde .50 yeares beyng able as he thought to yelde a good reason agaynst their fabulous reason why Christ would bée so olde which was to bée an infante with infantes and so forthe tyll he were at length also an olde man with olde men as the sanctification and example of all ages specially because he thought he had both the Ioan. 8 Gospell and also tradition of his side hauing heard of Sainct Iohns Schollers in Asia that seniorem aetatem habens dominus noster docebat Our Lorde was of olde age when he Preached and thinking by olde age they must haue ment aboue .40 towardes .50 howbeit the matter of it selfe is not great and then also it was muche lesse Againe the Gnostici reiected the God Creator withall his creation Iren. li. â—… in fine as another God from God the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christ Therefore was Ireneus glad if he could shew that Christ not onely tooke his owne flesh and made his owne Sacramentes of the Creators Creatures and raised from death his saide owne fleshe and so will raise our fleshe likewise but also that he will after our Resurrection dwel here in the Creators earth with vs for a thousand yeares Apoc. 2â—… so well he lyketh the Creator and his Creatures speciallye because he thought the Apocalypse of Sainct Iohn to bée on hys syde herein and had in déede on his syde Papias who either was scholler to Sainct Iohn or rather scholler to his schollers Euseb li. 3. ca. v but homo ingenij pertenuis a man of a verye slender witte as it is easie to gather of hys writinges sayth Eusebeus and therfore not altogether suche a one as Sainct Paule required 2. Tim. â—… speaking of the schollers of his scholler Timothie qui idonei erunt c. such as shall be meete to teach others also because him selfe was not sufficient to vnderstand Apostolicas interpretationes c. The Apostles expositions being made in mysticall fygures and darke parables Howbeit the matter was not then so great vntill b Eus liâ—… 7. ca. 19 Au. de 〈…〉 li. 20. caâ—… 〈…〉 See Bib … cta Sixt Se. li. 5. not 233 afterwarde the Churche condemned peraduenture that opinion in the Heretikes called Chiliastae or Millenarij who according to d Au. 〈…〉 Cerinthus the Heretike in the Apostles tyme encreased the error with b Eus 〈◊〉 7. ca. 19 Au. de 〈◊〉 li. 20. ca◠〈◊〉 See Bib … cta Sixt Se. li. 5. not 233 intollerable augmentations of belly cheare and fleshely lust whiche they expected in those thousande yeares as the Turkes and Iewes doe Dionysius Alexandrinus wrote agaynst Nepos for it as f Eus sâ—… Hic C … in Dio … Alex. 〈◊〉 per Esa 18. in p … Iusti iâ—… pol. ad natum Eusebius hath recorded and also Sainct Hierome De viris illust And therefore it séemeth some wordes to bée lacking in another place of his where nowe wée reade as though it was Ireneus agaynst whom Dionysius wrote No more was it at that tyme a great matter for g Iustinus Martyr to be ouerséene in the sinne of the Angels both because his whole drift there is notwithstanding this by word very true that one God made all but some of his Angels did fall from him vsurpe a tyrannie ouer men till Christ came to deliuer vs and therfore the same wicked Angels do stirre vp their Gentiles now against the Christians being men most innocent and the faithfull seruauntes of the true God And also because that place Gen. 6. is the first place in the Scripture where expresse mention is made of the Angels and of their sinne for that place Gene. 3. The serpent was craftier then any beast of the earth how parabalicall it is but Gen. 6. the Septuaginta in their authenticall translation had then as S. Augustine witnesseth
of God if you can You shall not compell vs to tell you where when or how your heresie came in It chaufeth him that we shew so plaine an euidence against his side he can not shew the like against vs and therefore he is faine to flie againe to his cold exception of onely Scripture as though to iustifie our doctrine by the Apostles and that so sensibly were not ynough But most ridiculous of all it is to sée him come in with this exception where D. Allen alleaged TertulliaÌ„ for this rule Pur. 4 Ar. 42 That doctrine saith Fulke which is first agreable to Tertullians rule is vndoubtedly true and that which is later is false But how shall the first doctrine be knowen but by the word of God wherein all the doctrine of God is taught Tert. 〈…〉 praesc Tertullian there hath an other rule against such heresies as presumed Inserere se aetati Apostolicae To say that their founders liued in the Apostles time But this our rule he giueth against all such as rise any time after as Aerius Luther Caluin c. bidding vs then to coÌ„sider what was taught beléeued immediatly before they arose for the vndoubtedly is the truth and their later doctrine is falshood Now then how ridiculous is it for Fulke to run from Tertullians meaning yet to pretend that he agréeth to Tertullians Rule The same rule with an amplification also Antiq … Dem. in the same meaning doth likewise VinceÌ„tius LirineÌ„sis geue to wit If any Noueltie arise at any time yea preuaile so much afterward in processe of time as to make an vniuersall corruption so that almost no countrey of Christendome be frée froÌ„ it as this marchant boasteth at this day of the most of Europe EnglaÌ„d Scotland Ireland Ar. 3. Infra Dem. 〈…〉 FrauÌ„ce Germany Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia a great number also in Spaine Italy that then we looke vnto Antiquitie that is to the time before such noueltie preuailed before it arose as what was taught beléeued immediatly before Luther beganne these innouations And therefore alike ridiculous it is that he saieth We refuse not the rule of Vincentius Lirinensis Pur. 3â—… concerning Antiquitie so you can proue that it hath God to be the Author the Prophetes and Apostles As for witnesses vnder this antiquitie we passe not for them Why man The rule that you receaue proueth it The Apostles I say to be the Authors of our solemne prayer for the dead in the holy Masse and of any other such article because it hath such antiquitie as I haue now said and as Vincentius meant And so much vpoÌ„ the Rule of finding out the first authors of any doctrine and the same therefore to be hereticall or not finding them and the same therefore to be Apostolicall Whither is to be referred that Rule also of D. Allens that such as commonly by Christian people be named Heretikes Names dem 7.8 alwayes proue in the ende to be heretikes in deede notwithstanding their craking of Gods word Wherevnto Fulkes exception is the selfe same againe saying Ar. 65. The true Christians at this day being of the Papistes which after a sort are named Christians called heretikes and in reproche Protestantes and Caluinistes in that their faith agreeth with the word of God proue themselues in deede to be true Christians and no heretikes ij Against the Apostles Traditions TraditioÌ„s Dem. 29. Pur. 362. Now let vs heare how he maketh his saide exception also against the Traditions of the Apostles Thus he speaketh M. Allen referreth the institution of Prayer and Sacrifice for the dead to the tradition of the Apostles Of whom will he be afeard to lye when he fathereth such a blasphemie vpon the Apostles Soft man be good to D. Allen for their sakes that followe For you your selfe goe forward in the same place and say But who is witnesse that this is the tradition of the Apostles Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and a great many more This you could not and therfore doe not deny but come in with your stale exception saying But if it be lawfull for me once to pose the Papistes I would learne why the Lorde woulde not haue this doubtlesse institution plainely or at leastwise obscurely set forth by Mathew Marke Luke or Paule which all haue set forth the storie of the institution of the Sacrament If it were not meete at all to bee put in writyng why was it disclosed by Tertullian Cyprian Pur. 387. Augustine c Likewise in an other place If prayer for the deade was appoynted by the Apostles commaundement why is there neuer a worde thereof in their writinges If I were disposed to pose you this question woulde make you clawe your poll a hundred tymes before you coulde imagine any collourable aunswere for right aunswere you shall neuer be able to make In déede a doughtie question it is As though if a Christian can not answer euery why of the Infidel our Religion therfore is straight in hazard Ar. 48. It may trouble a wise maÌ„ to answer al the questions that a foole caÌ„ propound you say your self And yet neither you nor any other Infidell shall euer finde the learned to séeke It is for your religion to be to séeke of answers because it began but yesterday and is neither yet throughly shaped But the Catholike which is the only Christian Religion comming of God so many hundred yeres sithence continuing hath bene by our forefathers and the holy Ghost so sifted to our hands that the answere is alwayes ready afore the question be demaunded Briefly therfore S. Augustine one of our Masters and Doctors in Christ hath taught vs if we be posed about the Churches order in Baptisme to answere Au. dâ— op that Serie Traditionis scimus By the course of tradition we know what things are to be done therein although they be not expressed in the Scriptures and that for breuities sake So likewise being posed about the order of this other SacrameÌ„t to answere Quia multum erat c. Au. Eâ— ad Iaâ— cap. 6 Because it was much for the Apostle to signifie in his Epistle to the Corinthians the whole order of the action that the vniuersall Church through all the world obserued therefore hauing saide somewhat of the same Sacrament yea and as much as all the Euangelistes by and by he added And when I come 1. Cor I will prescribe the rest of the orders Vnde intelligi datur saith S. Augustine And thereby we may vnderstand that whatsoeuer is not varied in any varietie of vsages was of his prescribing This is our answere and you knew it partly before For you say I know the Papistes will flye to those words of the Apostle Pur. 3â— The rest I will set in order when I come And good reason S. Augustine teacheth vs so to do And what say you to him for it
But that is so manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and not of doctrine of the Sacrament as Prayers and Sacrifices that no man which vnderstandeth what diatazesthai doth signifie can doubt or make any question of it Be it so as you say But what haue you forgotten the thing wherof you speake Is it not of that Solemne prayer for the dead in the celebration of the Sacrifice That prayer we say is diatazis one of S. Paules ordinations What vnproper speach is here specially S. Augustine saying agayne in another place Aug◠ver ◠Ser. 3 Hoc enim a patribus traditum vniuersa obseruat Ecclesia This being a tradition of the Fathers that is the Apostles the whole Church obserueth and therefore it is such a thing as nulla morum diuersitate variatur when they which are departed in the cōmunion or vnitie of the body and bloud of Christ be in their place mentioned at the same Sacrifice To pray for them and to mention that for them also it is offred Thus you haue a piece of the cause why the Scriptures conteined not the whole order of celebration of the Sacramēts to wit for breuities sake And what doth that or any other cause let other writers to make mention of such things when Aerius the heretike compelled them or any other iust occasion was ministred You imagine and that deceiueth you as though the Apostles purposed to put all in writing Which if they had neither so many of them That al is not vvritten nor one of them so often would haue mentioned one thing But as the purpose of the holy Ghost in the bookes of the Olde Testament was principally to foreshew manifoldly Christ and his Church so in the bookes of the New Testament as in the gospels Ioan. 19. Luk. 24. to shew Christ euen to Consummatum est and Impleri omnia quae scripta sunt de me And in the Actes of the Apostles to shew Christes Church according to the old predictions beginning amongst the Iewes and increasing to the Gentiles yea and remouing with S. Paule from Hierusalem the head of the Iewes worthily reprobated and setting in Rome the head of the Gentiles by mercy elected And all this but as it were the first birth of the Church for Consummatum est could not be tolde by way of a Storie before the ende of the world though foretold it is the whole course I say of the Church euen to the glorious consummation thereof in the Apocalipse The other Bookes were written specially agaynst the perfidious Iewes and other false Masters of that time As likewise in euery age afterward agaynst the seuerall heresies of eche age we haue the Ecclesiasticall I say not Canonicall writers and Councels And therfore vnlesse any thing belonging to ech time be omitted in the writings of ech time no maruaile at all for the omission of other things which there was then no suche occasion to expresse This I should haue reserued to an other place but that this insolent Poser might not abide any delay Pur. 264. Now then to go forward with him I know saith he the Papists will answer that Tradition is of as good credit as the Scripture 1. Thes 2. 2. Thes 2. 1. Cor. 11. and is the word of God vnwritten as well as the Scripture is the word of God written And good reason for the Scripture it selfe so teacheth vs. But why then saith he do they not obserue all things that Tertullian in the same place affirmeth to be Tradition This Why I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Supra ◠par 1. d◠Pur. 36 Moreouer he saith Their writings are to vs the onely true testimonie of their tradition So were they not to the Thessalonians For they had of S. Paule Traditiones per sermonē per epistolam Pur. 40 Traditions partly by word of mouth partly by writing Yea he saith further When the Apostolike writing can not be shewed it is but the poynt of an Heretike to boast of Apostolike tradition So he saith to D. Allen. But to the old Fathers I hope he will be somewhat better and content to take only his exception against them as where he saith Pur. 39. ◠If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that Oblations for the dead came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeres further from the Apostles time then he Againe Pur. 39 Chrisostome can no more proue that Prayer for the dead came from the Apostles then Tertullian can proue that oblation for the dead came from them Againe But where he saith Pur. 30 304. It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed He must pardon vs of crediting because he can not shew it out of the Acts and writings of the Apostles We must not beleue Chrysostome without Scripture affirming that it was ordeined so by the Apostles Howbeit sometime he is bolder yet with the Fathers for auouching this Tradition He dare not call them heretikes for it but yet he dareth to charge them with doutfulnes contradiction about it For of Chrysostome he saith Pur. 39 Chryso◠Ep. ad ◠Hom. 3 Lo M. Allen your owne Doctor confesseth it is but small helpe that can be procured by praiers almes or remēbrance of thē at the celebration of the holy Mysteries You will say that soone after he saith The Apostles that instituted such memory knew that much cōmoditie came to the dead Then see how soone he forgetteth himself when he followeth not the rule of holy scripture And againe Ar. 39. Yet did not praying for the dead so preuayle in the Primitiue Church that they durst define what profite the soules receiued thereby for Chrysostome saith Let vs procure them some helpe small helpe truly but yet let vs helpe them Likewise Augustine Aug. ◠fes lib. cap. 13. where he prayeth for his father and mother declareth how vncertayne he was of the matter One while he feareth the daunger of euery soule that dyeth in Adam An other while he beleeueth that they neede not his prayer yet he desireth God to accept the same and moue other men to remember them in their prayers Thus it is necessarie that they wander which leane vnto mens traditions without the word of God And in the same place S. Augustine in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wearieth him selfe and in the end can define nothing in certayne how the Saintes in heauen should heare the prayers of men on earth Such doubtfulnes they fall into that leaue the worde of God leane to traditions Although he were willing to mainteine Inuocation of Saints Pur. 317. yet he hath nothing of certentie out of the worde of God eyther to perswade his owne conscience or to satisfie them that moued the doubtes vnto him For S. Augustine De
cura I haue answered in the third Chapter Supra pag. 12. In his Confessions he is not vncertayne of the matter as you pretend but of the persons néede and that but of his mothers néede not also of his fathers as you say because she was so perfit a woman Euen as our faith also of the matter is most certayne though of our particular friendes state after their departure we be vncertayne For concerning the liuing also Iob. 1. was Iob vncertayne of the profitablenes of Sacrifice because earely in the morning he vsed to offer for his children after they had bene feasting together Dicebat enim ne forte peccauerint filij mei For he said lest peraduenture my children haue sinned And touching S. Chrysostome whom you thinke so very a childe to forget him selfe so soone your selfe in déede a very childe for so thinking He there speaketh first of a) For such as die vnreconciled them Qui cum peccatis suis hinc abscedunt Which go hence with their sinnes and saith that they can not be holpen after their death Then he speaketh b) For Catholikes that be rich of them Who are departed in the faith but yet being rich they did not procure by their riches any comfort to their owne soules To these we that are their friends may with our riches prayers procure some helpe but litle in respect of that they might haue procured them selues So saith he He speaketh in such a comparison Neither is the Apostolike Memento within his comparison although it might haue bene well inough For although by it come much commoditie much vtilitie to the dead yet nothing so much when it is procured by their friends as when it is procured by them selues specially because a mans owne works are also meritorious of euerlasting rewarde so are not his friendes workes they are not meritorious vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine as his owne nothing like iij. Against the Churches authoritie And so much of the Apostles and their Traditions Authoritie Dem. 34. Diuine seruice Dem. 22. Pur. 264. You shall now heare him make the same exception against the Churches Practise and Iudgement But admit saith he that the Church of God in Tertullians time vsed prayers and oblations for the dead Let vs consider vpon what ground they were vsed Tertullian himselfe shall say for me that the same custome with many other which he there rehearseth as comming from the Apostles hath no ground in the holy Scripture It is good to take that which is so frankely geuen and more is Tertullian to be commended that confesseth the ground of his error not to be taken out of the word of God then they that labour to wrest the Scriptures to finde that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be found in them You are hastie to take it but Tertullian doth not geue it as I haue plainely shewed you in the third Chapter Supra pa. 2 diui 3. Againe he excepteth against the Churches Practise in her Liturgie or Masse and saith We haue with more honestie refourmed our Liturgie according to the word of God then Gregorie Pur. 371. Basil Chrysostome or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leaue the auncient Liturgies that were vsed in the Church before their time and forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God we neither refuse the Latine Church while it was pure nor receiue the East Church wherin it was corrupt But the Scripture is a rule vnto vs to iudge all Churches by And yet that we may not thinke him a coward he saith else where to D. Allen. But to follow you at the heeles as farre as you dare goe Pur. 349. I will agree with S. Augustines Rule quod legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi the order of the Churches prayer is euer a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beléeue so saieth S. Augustine and so doth D Allen alleage it but because Fulke could not make his florish with that end forward he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine and D. Allen had said Falsification by changing that the law of beleeuing should make a law of praying And then he bestirreth him selfe like a man and addeth of his owne But faith if it be true hath no other ground but the word of God Therfore prayer if it proued of true faith hath no other Rule to frame it by but the worde of God And by and by after Which rule of onely Scripture if Augustine had diligently followed in examining the common error of his time Of prayer for the dead at that time he would not so * O videns blindly haue defended that which by holy Scripture he was not able to maintaine And no lesse bold he is with the Practise commended euen in the Canonicall Scripture it selfe Seeing this fact of Iudas Machabaeus Pur. 210. hath no commauÌ„dement in the Law it is so farre of that it is to be draweÌ„ into example that we may be bold to condemne it for sinne and disobedience Now concerning the iudgement of the Churche he excepteth against it likewise Ar. 86. saying As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or contention of heresie they must be resolued and determyned onely by Scriptures For there is neuer aâ— cause heretikeâ— make dâ—â—bt of the Church this heretike vvill that no Christian leane vnto it heresie but there is as great doubt of the Churche as of the matter in question Onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mannes conscience As though that heresies neuer made doubt of the scriptures also eyther of all or of some péece namely your selues now of the Machabées And expressely against his owne Churche he maketh the same exception Ar. 58. saying And the Protestantes in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiors so farre as their Superiors are ruled by Gods word Againe Among the Protestantes to the Church of Saxonie humbly affected is the Churche of Denmarke to the Church of Heluetia the Church of Fraunce to the Church of England the Church of Scotland But so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the truth which must be tried onely by Gods word With that but so you will consent I trow to Iackstrawe also and therefore it is a marueilous humble affection that your Churches haue one to an other Anno. 1. Elizab. Your owne Churche of England in generall Parliament was then much to blame to enact foure Rules for condemning of heresie First if it were against Canonicall Scripture SecoÌ„dly if it were against the first .4 Generall Councels or against any one of theÌ„ Thirdly if against any other general CouÌ„cel also but the with your acception to wit so far as the said Councell followed the line of Scripture and fourthly simpliciter whatsoeuer this high Court of Parliament shall adiudge to be heresie You notwithstanding haue written
as before And agayne Neither do we require you to beleeue any one companie of men Ar. 62. more then another but to beleeue the truth before falshood which you must search in the word of truth It was belike for this much other such Apocriphall stuffe that your booke was kept in so long and in the end also faine to come forth without priuiledge Yea he is so peremptorie in his exception Fuâ—e vvil not beleeue the Apostles nor the Angels vvithout Scripture the most absurdly he attributeth to the Apostles themselues without scripture no more then to Iackstraw and consequently with scripture as much to Iackstraw as to the Apostles For thus he saith speaking of D. Allen He speaketh it because he beleeueth it Pur. 24.4 2. Cor. 4. He would faine counterfeit his speach like the Apostle but the ground of his beliefe is not as the Apostles was the word of God but the practise of meÌ„ which though they were neuer so good yet they were suche as might deceiue and be deceiued Againe Pur. 449. Gal. 1. where he abuseth that which S. Paule speaketh to the Galathians of preaching their receiuing of it turneth it as spoken of onely Scripture It vexeth you at the very hart saith he that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a plaine coÌ„maundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed As though S. Paul there commaunded to accurse him self and al the Apostles the vniuersall Church of Christ if they confirmed not all their doctrine with expresse Scriptures in such maner as you here require No Syr nothing so Onely he accurseth them which should preach contrarie to that he had preached the Galathians had receiued which was as you see traditioÌ„ by mouth in which maner he taught them other Churches all Christian Religion therein as one principall point the Canon of the scriptures both old new if at the leastwise any Bookes of the newe as then were written which could not be many before the Epistle to the Galathians being as by conference of times it may well be proued the first of all S. Paules Epistles And so much of the Churches authoritie in her Iudgements and Practise namely of her diuine Seruice Whervnto I ioyne as the principalles in the authoritie first the Councells and secondly the Popes For to theÌ„ likewise he maketh his exceptioÌ„ Pur. 430. Councels Dem. 27. saying Wherfore if any CouÌ„cell decree according to the Scriptures as the CouÌ„cel of the Apostles did Act. 15. the CouÌ„cel of Nice with diuers other we receiue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God But if any Councell decree contrarie to the authoritie of the Scriptures as many did without all presumption or pride we may iustly reiect them Pur. 194. See Apostolike Dem. 28. Then of the other Yet is not all that Gregorie writ of equall authoritie with the word of God without authoritie whereof we beleeue not an Angel from heauen as I haue often shewed much lesse a Bishop of Rome And not onely against eche Pope seuerally but also against their whole line and entire Succession he excepteth in like maner saying Succession Dem. 43. Aâ— 28. Although we could rehearse in order as many Successions in our Church as the Papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures And a little after We require at the Papistes handes that they shew them selues to hold the Church not by Succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures For although wee did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly Succession on our side wee would not require men to beleeue vs but onely because wee proue the doctrine of our Churche by the authoritie of the Scriptures In déede we must acknowledge Fulke vvhat a frankeling that you deale very frankely with vs to renounce so fréely such a goodly euidence because you can not make so much as any shew thereof For otherwise when you haue any collour of any thing at all what mountybanke pedler is so facing so boasting so vaunting as you and your fellowes iiij Against the Fathers Fathers Dem. 26. Now after all this I will open his like excepting against the Fathers both in generall and also expressing diuerse of their names although it hath bene opened in part alreadie by other occasions And touching the first true it is that he often braggeth much of the Fathers which liued in the first a Ar. 39. Pu. 30.177 435.370.371 two hundred or b Pur. 186.247.304.331.357.364.382 one hundred yeares chalenging vs to proue our doctrine out of them and not out of the later Fathers after them euen with as much reason as he commonly chalengeth vs to proue all out of the scriptures vtterly without all ground but méere voluntarily * Fulkes tvvo Onelies the one as the other which ensample therefore is much to be noted But here notwithstanding I shall declare howe he excepteth smothly and simply against all the Fathers against all in general and expresly also saying were they neuer so auncient Wherin how well he agréeth with him selfe I deferre to the eleuenth Chapter And in effect he hath already so done in calling so often afore for Onely Scripture But yet to shew it more manifestly and as it were the very face it selfe thus he saith Pur. 205. Whatsoeuer he was or howe long soeuer it be since he wrote because it hath not authoritie in the word of God I weigh it as the wordes of a man whose credit in diuine matters is nothing without the word of God Againe Pur. 202. When all authoritie out of Gods word faileth you wherby you should proue that the soules departed receiue benefite by the merites of the liuing you flye to the authoritie of men But mans authoritie is to weake to carie away so weightie a matter Away with mens writings shew me but one Scripture to proue it Againe If for these and an hundred suche Pur. 22. you can shew no better warrant then the tearmes of your fathers the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortall men the curse of God by Esay must nedes be turned ouer vnto you Againe Pur. 58. Your reasons either be manifest wrestings of the holy Scripture or else are buylded vpon the authoritie of mortall men Againe Pur. 386. We neede no shift M. Allen for the authoritie of the Doctors whom we neuer allow for Canonicall Scriptures and therefore we may boldly say Whatsoeuer we find in theÌ„ agreable to the Scriptures he meaneth expressed in the Scriptures we receiue it with their prayse and whatsoeuer is disagreable to the Scriptures we refuse with their leaue Againe Pur. 363. Now touching the credite and
worthinesse of these whom M. Allen so highly extolleth as I would not go about to diminish it if they were to be compared with vs so when they are As though vve opposed the doctors to the Apostles opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the holy Apostles the ministers of the holy Ghost there is no cause that we shoulde be caried away with them That which he saith here as his Masters taught him of mortall men D. Allen knew aforehand and forewarned the Reader thereof where he said Melancton Pur. 384. as though he were no man that might erre himself saith the Doctors were men And againe to sée their absurditie in the same terme of mortall men Mortall men are compreheÌ„ded also the Apostles them selues and if they sometime séeme to separate them selues from it they meane then by the Apostles nothing but the Scriptures of the Apostles As Fulke in certaine places noted before and againe where he saith to D. Allen Ar. 59. You shal neuer bring vs to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our faith but we agree wholly with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane and I will not be afrayde to vtter it For as much as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church you thinke that we dare not depend vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depend only vpon Gods word Euen so dealt the vnbeléeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and with Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles yea and Christ himself condescended to them accordingly If the Protestants would in like sort haue dealt with him them not to haue beléeued them in any thing without Scripture the faithfull I thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beléeued them vpon their own word not Christ onely but also his Apostles because of the spirite of truth that he sent to them and not to them onely but also to his Church after them for euer and therefore they will also no lesse at all times beléeue the said Church for the same spirite assuring them selues that the saide spirite agréeth still with him selfe whersoeuer and howsoeuer he speaketh be it in the Scriptures or be it in the Church and in the Church Primitiue or in the Church of later times and agayne in the Pastors of the Primitiue Church as the Apostles or in the Pastors of the Church afterwarde at any time in generall Councell or otherwise consenting together It is no maruayle after this generalitie to sée him now except against the Fathers in particular naming the times and the persons Ar. 60. as first the times where he saith The other writers of later yeres after Ireneus and Iustinus we are not afrayde to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead Pur. â—87 and diuers Ceremonies And Although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient error so that few of the later writers there are but they shew them selues to be infected therewith yet they had no ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing Pur. 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Cyprian Ambrose but without warrant of Gods word or authoritie of Scriptures but such as is pitifully wrested and drawen vnto them Againe Pur. 30. But it sufficeth you that your forefathers more then a thousand yeres ago called the place of sufferaÌ„ce Purgatory But I pray you what is it called in the Scripture either of the old Testament or the new Diuers errors be older then a 1000. yeres but age can neuer make falshood to be truth and therfore I weigh not your * It is pride to follovv the fathers and humilitie to coÌ„demn them proud brags worth a straw Againe And this was a great corruption of those ancient times that they did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the word of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing Pur. 419. and the rest as aboue in the third Chapter And againe Supra pag. 9. Those of the auncient Fathers that agreed with you in any part of your assertion notwithstanding many excellent giftes that they had Pur. 436. dissented therein from manifest truth of the Scriptures And so by name likewise he saith of certayne as for example Damascene your doctor should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture Againe Pur. 412. Pur. 60. The supposall of S. Augustine is sette downe which because it is but the authoritie of a man it is not of sufficient weight to beare downe the testimonie of Gods word Againe Pur. 395. And euen the authoritie of Athanasius without the word of God is the authoritie of man We count not all his writings for Canonicall Scriptures but we iudge them by the Canonicall Scriptures And againe Pur. 255.256 Gregorie Nissene and Athanasius the Great There is no cause why we should beleue either of them both in an article of faith without the authoritie of the word of God The second part Beeing told that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the Expositors he maketh the same exception of Only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture Now after all this froth of words let vs sée him come once to the poynt report him self the substance of our matter These be his owne words But the controuersie is not M. Allen fayth of the authoritie of the Scriptures in this matter Pur. 363 but of the true meaning of them which it is more like that they the Doctors being such men then we so farre inferior to them should know And what saith he therevnto I answere saith he and yet not one worde there to the question Else where he saith therevnto as I will report anone his words that also the meaning of the Scriptures must be searched out of the Scriptures onely Well syr but whencesoeuer and wheresoeuer it must be searched who is more like to finde it the Doctors or you and so neither that which you saye in other places answereth the question But in this place reade it who list your answere is quite cleane froÌ„ the questioÌ„ which was Whether be more like to know the true meaning of the Scriptures the Doctors or you And yet you pype vp the triumph there and say Thus haue these Heretikes no ground of their heresie but shift from the word of Scripture to Tradition from Tradition to the meaning of Scripture from the plaine meaning of Scripture to the opinions of men Yea and he counteth him selfe and his companies happie for such
bene otherwise expounded then of their cause Pur. 176. Yea and more then that The worde of God doth neither expresly nor by any probable collection allow it but manifestly condemne it Pur. 185. Againe He could not with any semely colour establish purgatorie by the authoritie of the Scripture the onely testimonie of Gods word and will reueiled and confirmed by his holy Spirite The Machabées to be euen so confirmed as well as the other bookes he can neuer auoyde and in effect he graunteth as I shall note in the eleuenth Chapter amongst his contradictions Which is sufficient I trow to make at the least a séemely colour and a probable collection but in déede also a conclusion so necessary that he can neuer answere it but by shaking the authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures in derogating from their confirmation which yet him selfe doth attribute to the holy Spirite The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sence of the Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevpon a fourefold offer is made vnto him Now that we haue séene howe precise he is with vs to admit 1 no euidence that we alleage but Scripture onely both in all controuersies and also in the exposition of Scripture and againe 2 no Scripture which maketh so playnly with vs that he can not auoyde it but by denying it to be Canonical though he graūt it to haue the confirmation of the same true Church which moueth him as the holy Ghost to receiue the other Scriptures for Canonicall and againe 3 no Scripture that he confesseth to be Canonicall vnlesse it make so expresly so playnly so manifestly and so necessarily with vs that it can not by any suttletie be auoyded It were to be séene nowe on the other side what Scriptures he alleageth against vs whether he obserue him selfe the law that he so rigorously prescribeth to vs whether his Scriptures be so playne so manifest so euident that by no sutteltie they can be auoyded But that we shall sée in the next Chapter no nede of sutteltie I assure you to auoyde or delude them so friuolous are his allegations that with al facilitie and truth we shall answere them Here in the meane time in the ende of this Chapter I will onely lay forth his great promises aforehande and so come orderly to the matter And to omit if he should haue to do with all the old and newe heresies what manifest necessary confutations he would frame against them all and euery one out of the Scriptures alone hauing fréely afore them renounced al other probations according to his former sayings here that all truth and all articles of our beliefe are playnly taught in the Scripture and may be so proued by Scripture that there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to do but it is so set forth in the scriptures His great promises I will charge him no more but with his promise that he maketh of so confuting vs by playne Scriptures notwithstanding that all other euidences make for vs in such sort as he hath already confessed Thus he saith Pur. 187. And that which I haue to saye in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And againe Pur. 30. I am one of the least of Gods Ministers yet by his grace and authoritie of his holy word I shal be able to ouerthrow both this and all other Babilonicall bulwarks that are cast vp by Satan all his instruments for the defence of Popish heresie against the truth of God And neither the myst of mens inuētions which you cal the light of Apostolike tradition shall be able to darken the truth of the Gospell nor the errors of mortall men which you terme the force of Gods trueth shall beare downe the authoritie of Gods holy spirite Againe Pur. 12. We be able to shew manifest euidence that our aduersaries doctrine is cleane contrarie to the Scriptures of God Againe Ar. 3. We affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in stead of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are ready to proue by the word of God Againe I can proue by S. Paules writings Ar. 59. that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it would require a whole volume if I should proue euery perticular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article in the next Chapter your selfe shall name ynowe Yet if you will let it be this that Antichrist is not one certaine person and that the Churches fléeing into the wildernesse at his comming is to become inuisible to the world and that the beginning of that comming and fleing should be so soone after Christes passion the continuaunce so many ages the end so long before Christes second cōming wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaning thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea and also to proue his owne meaning and to disproue our meaning when we both alleage Scriptures he will séeke as he required of vs to nothing likewise but Scripture it selfe For the meaning of the worde he saith you should beleeue vs rather then the Papistes because our groundes and proues are better then theirs or els we require not to be beleeued better then they And there againe If you bring out a false sense we beleeue you not because we knowe it to be false and are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrarie to the meaning of the holy Ghost His triumphing in lying These are his worthie promises Of which he hath béen so liberall belike because he knewe that we dare not once appeare when Scriptures be alleaged by the Protestantes For such are his wordes Pur. 380. We can shewe no cause in the world you say why wee neede in any one point of controuersie depart from your Church Yet M. Allen this one cause shall serue for all because your Church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proude dame in a Chaire Ar. 28. and controll the Scriptures Againe The Popish Church can by no reason chalenge Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets seeing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writinges Againe The spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ Ar. 99.6 and is ruled thereby But the Romish Church will in no wise be ruled Onely by the voyce of Christ therefore she is not the Spouse of Christ Where by his foysting in of the worde Onely in the Minor
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
and sure for their persons and not one of them but he was thankes be to God throughly satisfied by our conference and namely by séeing and hearing our foresaid dayly reading and examination of the Scriptures Which béeing by D. Allen our President his order vsed amongst vs who can doubt but he exhorteth men to reade the Scriptures them specially that vnderstande Latin much more thē S. Bedes historie And namely the Acts of the Apostles what booke do I his scholler more often vse in my Motiues and Demaundes then that And touching a Catholike trāslation of the Scriptures you shew your selfe to know litle God wotteth what is D. Allens desire and minde therein But all men may assure them selues that any thing lacketh therevnto rather then good will and feruent zeale specially because we sée it translated already by Catholikes into al other languages almost and because we know sundry cōmodities that might ensue thereof namely because we lament to see so many soules to dye in the most holsome waters beeing turned into deadly bitternes by your Starre Absinthin Apoc. 8. your blindnes withall being suche that leauing both the authenticall Gréeke of the Septuaginta which the Apostles and Primitiue Church did vse and also the authenticall Latin which the Church hath vsed so many hundred yeres in some part euen from the beginning almost you haue serued our countrey with the olde Testament of the late obstinate Iewes vowelling diuiding and reading it being of it selfe but one verse in the whole Psalter and ech other particular booke onely consonantes and to be read according to the tradition of the faithfull which tradition we know by our authenticall translations and not of the incredulous and perfidious No no whensoeuer we should make if we were in case and place a Catholike translation and send the copies in they should be in no lesse daunger of your searchers and fyres then our other bookes haue bene and are euery day more and more but yet that daunger should not stay vs if nothing els did knowing that such a translation will confound you ten thousande times more then all the other bookes haue done Last of all if none of my former requestes can finde place with you at the least wise you shal haue here in the Chapter folowing an answere to all your Scriptures hither vnto alleaged in both your bookes to chaw vpon for a while And then tell your Reader when as you haue here renounced all other euidences so he shall sée that you are no lesse destitute of Scripture also tell him then I say blaming D. Allen Pur. 364. and saying And yet he wondreth that we are so blinde that we can not see the cleare light of truth And againe in the ende of your booke Pur. 458. In Gods name let the Readers way indifferently and as they see this poynt of the dead handled so let them iudge of the rest The trueth is vpholden by euident testimonie of Scripture the error by custome practise and iudgement of men The truth seeketh vnderstanding of the Scriptures of the spirite of God in the Scriptures error at the mouthes of mortall men Now thē to these euident Scriptures in the name of God and to your diuine vnderstanding of them ¶ The eyght Chapter To shew his vanitie in his foresaide rigorous exacting of playne Scripture and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered AL the Scriptures that he alleageth against vs throughout his two bookes I do sort and distribute into foure partes The first concerning the question of onely Scripture the second concerning the question of the Church the third concerning the question of Purgatorie the fourth concerning al other questions that he mentioneth The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture And as touching the first In the last Chapter we saw how to make exception against all our other euidēces he euermore said that in all matters Onely euident Scripture must be brought and heard confessing those other euidences to be so euident for vs that they can not otherwise be auoyded Now then this béeing his onely refuge how many and how euident Scriptures hath he alleaged for it as you thinke Surely in all his first booke to D. Allens Articles they being altogether our foresaid Euidences he alleageth but one place onely and not many mo neither in his other booke of Purgatorie And what maner of place also thinke you that it is specially considering howe muche he craketh of it as where he saith Thus I haue declared Ar. 11.15 c. that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all Heretikes onely by the Scripture Agayne it hath bene already proued sufficiently Ar. 16. that the true Catholike Church which is ledde only by the worde of God the onely weapon by which heresies are cut downe counting it to be sufficient for that purpose hath ouerthrowen heresies of all sortes And againe Doctrine is to be sought out and tried onely by the Scriptures Ar. 82. as we haue declared at large in the answere to the fourth Article first Demaunde And once againe Ar. 86. As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or cōtention of heresie they must be resolued and determined as it is abundauntly declared before onely by the Scriptures With that place of Scripture he alleaged certayne Fathers as Hilarius Basilius Chrysostome Sainct Augustine Leo the first and the Councell of Constantinople the sixte To whom I must aunswere in the next Chapter Infra pag. But he graunteth pardie that the Fathers authoritie is no warrant to him so to crake as another where also expresly he saith Pur. 383. It is not for confirmation of the trueth that we alleadge the authoritie of the Doctors and olde Councels Then must all these crakes be onely in respect of the Scripture that you there alleaged Let vs therefore nowe heare that Scripture So did Paule ouercome the Iewes Act. 18. that is to say Ar. 11. only by the Scripture That he often disputed against the Iewes prouing Iesus to be Christ I there finde but that his argumentes were none but Scriptures I finde not But reade you Actes .13 and you shall finde that he vsed also other argumentes agaynst them to witte the testimonie of certayne men as of S. Iohn Baptist and of his owne Disciples that sawe him many dayes together after his resurrection qui vsque nunc sunt testes eius ad plebem Who to this day are witnesses for him to the people Reade likewise Act. 4. for the argument of Miracles specially where it is sayde Hominem quoque videntes stantem cum eis qui curatus fierat nihil poterant contradicere Seeing the man also standing with Peter and Iohn whom they had healed the Gouernours of the Iewes were quite put to silence And therefore also if S. Paule had in your place ouercome them
onely by Scriptures it would not follow thereof that no other argumentes are good ynough agaynst Iewes and Heretikes Now to the places alleaged in your other booke Other perswasion say you then suche as is grounded vpon the hearing of Gods worde Pur. 6. will neuer of Christians be counted for true beliefe so long as the tenth Chapter to the Romanes remayneth in the Canon of the Bible S. Paule there saith that hearing is presupposed to beléeuing and agayne to hearing is presupposed the worde of God But in what sorte the worde of God onely in writing doth he not there expresse that by the worde of God he meaneth preaching and preaching of suche as be Sent for that which he saith in one place Hearing is of Gods worde the same he saith afore How shall they heare without preachers 1. Thes 2. And what is more common in the New Testament then to call the preaching of Gods messengers the worde of God Euen as we to this day count it the worde of God which we heare of the Church of God either in her Councels or in her Doctors or any other way for so said God to them He that heareth you Luc. 10. heareth me And so S. Paul said to the Galathians If any man preach vnto you any other Gospell Gal. 1. then that which we haue preached vnto you and which you haue receiued holde him for accursed He speaketh of preaching and you alleage it as spoken of writing and of onely writing For thus you say to vs It vexeth you at the very harte Pur. 449.163 that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a playne commaundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed No syr it rather reioyceth vs at the heart to see that this very same texte which you Falsification by chaunging corrupte is so playne a warrant to our brethren the Romaines accursing your masters Luther and Caluine for preaching an other Gospell Act. 28. then that which S. Paule preached to the saide Romaines and which they receyued of him the Scripture also testifying in other places Mat. 28. Act. 20. Rom. 15. that S. Paule and the other Apostles taught the Romaines and other Churches all things but not likewise that he or they wrote all whiche they taught neither againe that in suche things as they wrote the Churches alwayes should be required to bring forth their writing not otherwise to be credited although they alleaged their preaching or tradition by worde of mouth Whereby you perceiue that your conclusion foloweth not though it were true that you bring out of another place saying All good workes are taught by the Scriptures Pur. 410. it is S Paules 2. Tim. 3. the holy Scriptures are hable to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes Suppose this to be S. Paules saying will you conclude therof that Timothie himselfe commending any thing for a good worke and saying that he had it of S. Paules owne mouth where he had all things should not be credited but néedes he must proue the same by Scripture We say all good works were taught the Church by the Apostles speaking and that saying doth not take away the Apostles writing Euen so if all good workes were taught in the Apostles writing that taketh not away suche argumentes as are made vpon their speaking As agayne if a certayne article be confessed to be taught in S. Paules Epistles or also if all Articles for so your words pretende here in the last Chapter will it not suffice for all that to proue any article out of some other booke of Scripture What a fonde reasoning is this that because one euidence proueth all therfore I can not haue any other euidence but that onely And this I say supposing that S. Paule had said as you make him All good workes are taught by the Scriptures c. But nowe I say further that he doth not say so but being now at the point of martyrdome he exhorteth his Disciple not to faynt but to fulfill his office to the ende as he had done the office I say of an Euangelist or Preacher 2. Tim. 4. saying that although he should nowe be depriued of his master yet he had still the holy Scriptures with him which be profitable saith he to teaching of truth 2. Tim. 3. to disprouing of falshood to correcting of vices to instructing in righteousnes that the man of God that is the Euangelist be perfite that is to say furnished to euery good worke meaning thereby those foresaid workes of an Euangelist as he also there had said 1. Tim. 3. he that desireth a Bishops office desireth a good worke Now it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to this and another thing to be able or sufficient vnto it Agayne it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to euery parte of preaching and another thing the Scripture to teach expresly all good workes in euery particular as Oblations for the dead for of that you speake and so forth Pur. 434. Moreouer you alleage these two places Search the Scriptures and Trie the spirites and these you alleage for Only Scripture to be required both in all questions and also in exposition of Scripture declaring thereby that you eyther know not or care not what nor how you alleage For where our Sauiour saith to the Iewes Iohn 5. Search the Scriptures for they it are which beare witnesse of me in the very same place he saith also vnto them And Iohn did beare witnesse to the trueth And againe My workes VVho euer alleaged Scripture more blindly or Miracles do beare witnesse of me that my Father sent me and that a greater witnesse then Iohn And againe Also my Father who sent me he hath giuen witnesse of me Likewise vpon your other place Trie the Spirites you say And the Spirites are not tried but by the Scriptures So you say 1. Iohn 4. Ar. 4. but your text doth not so say yea the Apostle S. Iohn saith there straight after By this we know a spirite or Prophet or teacher of trueth and a spirite of error Looke in the text man sée what is that whereof he saith by this whether it be by Onely Scripture or by some thing els Briefly Beleeue not euery spirit saith he but trie the spirites whether they be of God for then you may be bolde to beléeue them By this is knowen a spirite of God first in one particular which I passe ouer then in generall after this maner You my children you Romanes and other Catholikes be of God We Apostles and other Catholike teachers be of God And therefore He that knoweth God heareth vs and he that is not of God doth not heare vs. By this we know a spirite of trueth and a spirite of error or a false Prophet
to wit by considering whether he agrée with them that are of God with them that receiued and kéepe the vnction or spirite of truth which was sent to the Church for euer with them that depart not after any Seducers but continue in that which they heard in the beginning as the Romanes do most manifestly no Antichrist nor Heretike being able to name the time the noueltie the Seducer that euer they went after so as Wittenberge Geneua England and all other that we charge with it haue done most notoriously This is the effect in generall of S. Iohns Epistles Agayne you alleage and say The word of the Lorde is a light vnto our steppes and a lanterne vnto our féete Pur. 285.364 Psal 118.18 Therfore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Item The faithful testimonie of Gods word onely giueth true light vnto the eyes as the Prophet saith And by and by after you call it The onely authoritie of Gods word written But the Prophet neither hath the word onely neither saith that Gods word is not but in writing but rather most euidently by Gods worde there he meaneth the preaching of his Apostles Rom. 10. S. Paule also him selfe referring that verse of the same Psalme vnto them accordingly Into all the earth their sound is gone forth and their words to the ends of the world And so you may see the light of Gods word to be not only in writing but also in tradition by mouth Pur. 210. Last of all you alleage and say against Iudas Machabeus In the Law not so much as one pinne of the Tabernacle was omitted lest any thing might be left to the will of man to deuise in the worship of God Deut. 12. ver 8. 32. You shall not do saith the Lord what séemeth good in your owne eyes but that which I commaunde you that only shal you do without adding any thing to it or taking away any thing from it You are very dayntie of your quotations in maner none at all in your margin because you alleage so fewe places and commonly omitted in your texte also because you alleage your places without booke This is my coniecture let the Reader loke in the places as I doe quote them because for breuitie sake I omitte many thinges that were worth the noting Wel in this place Moises saith not That only which I do write but That only which I commaund you And so our Sauiour said long after to the Iewes accordingly Mat. 23. The Scribes and Pharises sit in Moises chaire and therefore whatsoeuer they commaund you obserue it and doe it As for the Pinnes of the Tabernacle they are so mentioned for other causes as you may sée in the Doctors Commentaries and not for the cause that you imagin that is to leaue nothing to any man afterwarde in the worship of God for how say you then by Dauid and Salamon who chaunged not only a pinne yea all the pinnes but also that whole Tabernacle building in stéed of it a Temple in Hierusalem and there ordeining musicall instrumentes and many other things for the worship of God that the law did not mention You alwayes erre because you do not distinguish betwene men that haue onely their owne humane spirite and men that haue the spirite of God as Moyses the Prophets the Apostles and the Catholike Church And so hauing answered al your places I would your Vnlearned Brother to know of it him that euery yere sendeth out the Newyeres giftes and what els I know not and to tell me now why I might not in my last Motiue call this your Castle of Onely Scripture Onely Scripture Your weake and false Castle Weake because you haue no defence at all for it neither of Srripture as I haue here declared neither of Doctor as in the nexte chapter I will declare False because not so much as one worde of Scripture from the beginning of Genesis to the ende of the Apocalipse maketh for you in any thing nor against vs in any thing as in this Chapter I doe ynough to persuade therein any reasonable man and therefore it is but a false sleight of you Heretikes and a mere deception of the simple when you be ouerthrowen by Apostolike traditions by auncient Fathers and so by many other our weapons in Christe as in the laste Chapter your selfe haue confessed to sette a bolde face vpon it and vaunte that yet for all that the Scriptures be plainelye for you and plainely against vs. In which boldnes your impudencie cryeth euen to heauen when you dare yet vaunt thereof so farre to saye that the Church of God is faine therefore to blaspheme the holye Scriptures seeing them to make so plainely for you When you here in the laste Chapter and your Masters and Scholefelowes commonly in their writinges feare not to open your mouthes thus against Gods holy Tabernacle in earth I that am nothing and in very deede nothing and lesse then nothing may not disdaine the like opening at me by the foresaide Vnlearned but contenting me with mine owne conscience and the conscience of God him selfe and his Angels and all his Seruauntes that knowe me by my person or by my writings beeing moste certaine how alwayes in heart and worde I haue honored the most holy Scriptures euen as gods owne liuely and infallible worde I submit my selfe with Dauid in an humble and contrite heart to all that Semei hath or shall vtter against me if peraduenture my Lorde God most mercifull will accept it to forgeuenes of my manifold and heynous sinnes desiring of him no other reuenge but the parties conuersion and reconciliation to him and his swéete spouse my lieue Mother the Catholike Church And so muche in this place to that man In which place you also Fellow Fulke Arg. ab authoritate negatiuè may be admonished to looke better to your Logicke concerning your argument ab authoritate negatiuè that you oppose it no more to our so many argumentes ab authoritate affirmatiuè I gaue you a litle before two causes thereof consider them well I pray you All knowledge that Christian men haue of heauenly things you say Pur. 449. to mainteine your argument is grounded vpon the authoritie of Gods word meaning the Scripture Therefore as it is no good Logicke to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true So of the whole doctrine of God wherein all trueth necessary to saluation is conteined the argument is most inuincible that concludeth negatiuely thus All true doctrine is taught in the Scripture Purgatory is not taught in the Scripture therefore Purgatory is no true doctrine Letting Purgatory alone till anone there are two faultes I say in this reasoning One because the Maior is false as to all your textes alleaged for it I haue answered The other because although the Maior were true yet can not the argument be
opposed to our argumentes as you oppose it in the last Chapter You might if the Maior were true labour to the purpose I graunt in prouing the Minor But you might not I say for all that make of it an opposition or exception when we make argumentes out of Traditions Councels Fathers c. as in the like I shew vnto you I proue a doctrine vnto you out of the Old Testament you oppose therevnto your negatiue argument and say to me All true doctrine is taught in the New Testament for so you do holde and must holde that doctrine is not taught in the New Testament therfore that doctrine is no true doctrine Is this well opposed of you May not I say to you notwithstanding Yea syr but for all that what say you to my place alleaged out of the Old Testament vnlesse you haue any thing against the Old Testament it selfe Euen so vnles you haue any thing directly against Traditions them selues Councels Fathers and suche others our argumentes do preuayle and you in vayne do flée to Only Scripture although all true doctrine were taught in Scripture Now to the second question concerning the Church ¶ The second part Concerning the question of the Church About the Church his contradictions are very many and very palpable as I will declare in the eleuenth Chapter Here I haue to examine what he alleageth first indefinitely That the Church may erre That it may be diuorced That it is a base and contemptible companie That it may and also should become inuisible and then by name That the Protestantes haue the true Church or That the Papistes haue it not j Of the Church indefinitely That the whole Church may erre he alleageth and saith According to the saying of the Scripture Euery man is a lyer Ar. 86. Wherfore the whole Church militant consisting of men which are all lyers may erre altogether Why do you say The church militant Doth not the Church triumphant also consist of men If therefore all men be lyers why may not they also erre No doubt because although all men are lyers of them selues yet some men may notwithstanding by the gifte of God be veraces true And so where you conclude thus vpon vs God onely is not true Pur. 451. for the Pope can not erre you might conclude aswell God onely is not true for the Apostles can not erre Againe you alleage and say The true and only Church of God hath no such priuiledge graunted Ar. 88. but that she may be deceiued in some things For her knowledge is vnperfect her prophecying is vnperfect 1. Cor. 13. Where you her S. Paule saith our including him selfe also in that speache Ex parte enim cognoscimus c. For our knowledge is vnperfect and our prophecying is vnperfect so long as we be in this life whether we speake or write And yet you will not say I trow that S. Paule therefore might be deceiued in his writings and Epistles So then the Churches priuiledge knowledge prophecying may be vnperfect and yet she withall so frée from erring that she may be bolde in her determinations to say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath bene thought good of the holy Ghost and of vs. Againe you say And it is true that S. Augustine saith Euen the whole Church is taught to say euery day Ar 88. Pur. 393. Aug. Retra li. 2. ca. 18. Forgeue vs our trespasses But why so because the whole Church doth erre in her determinations euery day It were ridiculous so to say Why theÌ„ Propter quasdam ignorantias infirmitates membrorum suorum Because of certayne veniall sinnes of her members procéeding of ignorance frayltie saith S. Augustine In which members the Apostles also in their time were and therefore they also accordingly were taught to say euery day Forgeue vs our trespasses and did say accordingly Iac 3. 1. Io. 1. We do all offend in many things And yet I trow they did not erre nor could erre in their Canonicall writinges and determinations This is all that you bring to proue the whole Churche of Christ may erre Though you alleage one other place that the whole Synagogue did erre and yet that also onely in a fact not in a doctrine yea neither the whole Synagogue but a piece onely So that there bee as you see no lesse then three walles as it were betwene the Church and this shotte of yours These are your wordes Pur. 224.456 Dauid transgressed the law of God to carry the Arke vpon a new chariotte which should haue bene borne vpon mens shoulders … y blindnesse 1. Chron. 13. wherin not onely Dauid but so many priests and Leuites so good a Bishop and the whole Generall Councell of Israel did erre So say you but so saith not the texte yea it vtterly confoundeth both you and all these prophane innouations made by your ley heades and Parliamentes Dauid tooke counsaile saith the texte with his Tribunes and Centurions 1. Par. 13. 1â—… and all his Nobles He did not so much as consulte no not with the inferiour sorte of the Priestes but onelie If you please quoth he to his temporall Lordes and if the motion be of God let vs sende to the rest of our brethern in all the lande of Israel and to the priestes and Leuites in their Suburbes as you woulde saie the hedge Priestes that they gather vnto vs and we fetche agayne to vs the Arke of God And so they beganne in suche maner as you reporte vntill God killed Oza the Leuite in the procession and so made Dauid afraide to carrie it any further But three monethes after hauing found his error he gathered not onelie all Israel into Ierusalem but also filios Aaron Sadoc et Abiathar Sacerdotes The Successors of Aaron Sadoc and Abiathar the high priestes Leuitas and the Leuites with the heades of them being these six Vriel Asaias Ioel Semeias Eliel and Aminadab These two Bishops and these sixe Archedeacons that I may so tearme them he called and saide vnto them You that are the heades of the Leuiticall families prepare your selues together with your brethren and bring the Arke of our Lorde God of Israel to the place whiche is dressed for it least that as before because you were not present our Lorde did smite vs so nowe also it happen for our vnlawfull doing A notable ensample for all Princes and for al nobles to remember how they haue offended and to amende it accordingly and all A maiori in euery respect aboue the highest degree One more of your places I thinke good here to examine though you bring it not to proue that the Church may erre but onely to answere a place that we bring for the contrary Ar. 86. The true and onely Church of Christ you say can neuer be voide of Gods spirite and yet she may erre from the trueth and be deceaued in some thinges euen as
be ordeined at Rome as the Priest of God And therefore Infestus Sacerdotibus Dei fanda atque infanda comminabatur The Tyrant being mad at the Priests of God for that fact threatned as the Diuell Which he speaketh in excéeding prayse of Cornelius qui sedit intrepidus Romae c. Because he sate boldly at Rome in the priestly Chaire euen at that time Whereby you sée in what dread the tyrantes stoode of the Church though they so hated and so persecuted it Who euer more hated the same Priest and the Church with him then you your selues who at euery worde do blaspheme and call him Antichrist and yet I thinke you will not say that they are haue bene these thousand yeres a base and a contemptible companie Another place you alleage blindly against your selfe saying And S. Paul biddeth vs looke on our calling 1. Cor. 1. not many wise men according to the flesh not many mighty men not many noble men but God hath chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise and the weake of this world to confound the strōg So was the beginning of the Church What ergo always Doth not your text say that the wise also thē selues the strong at length were confounded that is to say conuerted Do you not sée how it foloweth against you If the Church were then a base and contemptible company as you say because it had not many wise mightie noble ergo afterward it was otherwise when it had gotten in also the Princes Kings Emperours of the world and as Esay speaketh Esai 60. The multitude of the Sea the fortitude of the Gentiles Was it then also a contemptible company yea or shall it according to the Scriptures euer after be no verily not so much as in the time or reuelation of Antichrist wherof I shall say more anone In so much that in another place your selfe also alleaging to the cleane contrarie Ar. 73. do say And Esay declareth when the people should be almost all destroyed yet a remnant should be saued which though it semed to be small yet it should ouerflow and fill all the world with righteousnes Esay 10. But this I must reserue to the Chapter of your grosse contradictions Last of all as concerning the Inuisiblenes of the Church you alleage so as Pur. 450. I thinke no sober man would One while that the vniuersall Church is not seene at all of men So we beleue you say because it is in heauen Gal. 4. Why do you say The vniuersall Church Is not also euery good member of it in heauen as the Apostle saith Our conuersation is in heauen Philip 3. And yet you beléeue not I trow that the Apostle was not séene at all of men Another while you say Ar. 80. It sufficeth that the Church be knowē to Christ the head As he saith My shepe heare my voyce I know them Iohn 10. Adding for all that text immediatly And to them that be of the members of the same body If your text import that it sufficeth to be knowen to the head why do you iumble in the members afterward Chrestes knowing of his shéepe is his louing of them as contrariwise to the goates he will say Mat. 25. I know you not Wherevpon if it folow not necessarily forsooth that the Church may be inuisible I report me to you Another while you alleage that although not alwais yet at one certaine time it should become inuisible to wit at the cōming of Antichrist And what Scriptures haue you for that thus you say It was prophecied that the Church should flye into the wildernes Ar. 27. that is be driuen out of the sight knowledge of the wicked So you expound that text of your owne head Againe Ar. 77. If the Church should stand always in the sight of the world then the defection which S. Paule speaketh of could not haue come neither should the Church flye into the wildernes as was declared to S. Iohn Substantial arguments That defection is your heresie as I shal straightway declare yet notwithstāding the Pope the church standeth at this time in the sight of the world The Church in the time of Antichrist both visible and vniuersall as it hath alwayes done Yea in the time that is to come when your great lord Antichrist shal appeare in person euen then also the Church shal stand stil in the sight of the world as it did in al the former persecutiōs in the first 300. yeres For there shal be preaching al the time of the persecution euen 1260. days Apoc. 11. as the persecution shal last 42. moneths which both cōmeth to three yeres a halfe the preaching shal be as general as the persecutiō to thē that sit vpon the earth Apo. 14. and vpon euery nation tribe language people exhorting thē mightily that they feare not the Beast nor adore him but that they feare the Lord giue honor to him because the honor of his iudgemēt is come As when it is said againe that the persecutors beeing in number as the sand of the sea Apoc. 2◠shall flow ouer the wide world super latitudinem terrae and so compasse the campe of the faithfull and the beloued Citie is it not therby playnly signified that the Church shal at the same time together with her enemies be vniuersall and super latitudinem terrae And therefore her flying then into the wildernes cannot be vnderstood as you expound it that she shal be driuen out of the sight and knowledge of the wicked but the meaning of it is this that she shall then abandon more then euer before all worldly pleasures being content to be turned out of all she hath and neuerthelesse sustayned by Gods prouision and fedde both in body and soule during all the time of that straite necessitie Apoc. 12. to wit 1260. dayes ij Namely of their Church and of ours by conference of places that are about Antichrist And so hauing answered all that you alleage about the Church indefinitely I am now come to that you alleage of your Church and of our Church by name Which is nothing in effect but only your owne fonde and voluntary applying of the two textes laste rehearsed whither the spirite of your error moued you That neither Antichrist nor the Apostasie agreeth to Bonifacius the third Of the Churches fleing into the vvildernes For so you said in the second Chapter that the Religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled An. Dom. 607. when Boniface the third for a great summe of money first obteined of Phocas the Emperour his Antichristian exaltation that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Churche And now we shall heare what Scripture warranteth you so to say Ar 16. When Antichrist the Pope in the West seduced the worlde with most detestable heresie then was
who expoundeth it of Martyrs which is there saide Blessed are the dead that dye in our Lord now after that the spirite saieth that they shall rest from their labours You reply saying that D. Allen vnderstanding it onely of Martyrs Aug. ca. 9. li. 20. de Ci. calleth Augustine to witnesse thereof but that it is spoken of all the faithfull and therefore ouerthroweth Purgatorie witnesse hereof I will not take of flesh and bloud say you sée what he maketh of S. Augustine but of the holy Ghost Rom. 14. wee all dye vnto the Lorde Your skill in the Scripture is great that make it all one to dye in the Lorde and to dye to the Lorde All that dye to the Lorde haue as the Apostle there sayth to make their accompt◠to him which may and will to some fall out to their damnation but blessed are al they that dye in the Lord. Wherefore these two are not all one True it is that all whiche dye well and in the Churches peace dye in our Lord as they are called also dormientes in Christo 1. Cor. 15. and mortui in Christo 1. Thes 14. they that slepe in Christ the dead in Christ wheresoeuer their Soules be after that sléeping and dying in heauen or in purgatorie But yet the place Apoc. 14. is verie well sayd of D. Allen to be spoken not of all that so dye but onely of martirs neither of al martirs but of them onely that shall suffer in the time and rage of Antichrist for so the circumstance of the letter playnlye geueth You therfore that wil haue one place always conferred with another consider the circumstance sée what goeth afore what commeth after and you shall finde that he speaketh of the last time exhorting the faithfull then not for any feare to adore the beast but to dye constantly in our Lorde for now the Resurrection is euen at hand and therefore their labours all at an end Feare the Lord saieth one Angel preaching to all the world at that time and geue honour to him because the very houre of his Iudgement is come and adore him adore not Antichrist And another Angell foloweth saying Cecidit cecidit downe downe is fallen Babilon And another Angell If any adore the beast he shal be tormented in fire and brimstone for euer and euer Then a voyce from heauen Blessed are the dead that will not adore the beast but dye in the Lord. Now after this the Spirite sayth that they shall rest from their labours For their workes that is their rewarde do folow them now at hand And immediatly there after commeth forth the Iudge vpon a white cloude and the Siethes and downe goeth al the world Lo this is the circumstance Wherby you sée the place saith not so much as those Martyrs to be at rest so soone as they dye but onely within a very short time after This is the place that quite ouerthroweth Purgatory And so I haue examined all that you alleage for going straight to heauen Another way you procéede against Purgatory and prayer for the dead by the Iudgement which is after this life Whether the Iudgement may stand with Purgatory The tree whether it fall to the South or the North Pur. 436.439.441 it lieth euer where it lighteth Eccl. 11. Your cōmentary vpon this place is that the fall of the tree to the south or to the north is the iudgement of God concerning euery man either of rewarde or of punishment which can not be altered after a mans death and therefore by this place prayers be not profitable Why who saith that prayers shall so alter their iudgement Some be iudged to heauen but differred as they in Limbo at the very same time when this was written and others not so good both then and nowe in Purgatory To bring these to heauen wherevnto they be so iudged prayers do serue And this differring is signified by the Wiseman euen in the same place quia post tempora multa inuenies illum He exhorteth them to doe almesdéedes and all other good workes that they can because a great while after thou shalt finde it The trée that fell in the South it may be a good while after before he be all trimmed For not the soule onely but also the body falleth to be rewarded or punished And who séeth not how long after the fall it is before the body haue accordingly Only before his fall let euery one looke to his workes for after the fall Luc. 16. he shal find Chaos magnum a huge distance betwene the north and the south and therefore no possibilitie of remouing from the one to the other This is the sense of that place as D. Allen told you before and your reply against it is tootoo friuolous For you say that then they should alwayes lye in Purgatorie because the certeintie of their saluation is as great before they were borne as after they be dead Certaintie of their saluation that by him the Wiseman speaketh of riseth after their dying in grace of the vnalterable iudgement that by your self the Wiseman speaketh of and it is the impossibility of remouing to the north or to damnation What maketh this against remouing out of Purgatory into heauē which is not remouing out of the south into the north but onely further into the south euen into the finall place that straight after his fall both his soule and body were iudged vnto You argue againe of the Iudgement saying Pur. 281. Immediatly after death foloweth Iudgement but prayers either neede not or boote not when the party is eyther acquited or condemned by the sentence of the Iudge which as S. Augustine saith can not be indifferent betwene reward and punishment De lib. arb li. 3. cap. 23. S. Augustine saith there the contrarie rather as you shall sée if you reade the place And to your argument I say In that iudgement some be condemned to hell for whom prayers boote not Others be acquited from hel and of these some straight rewarded in their soules and so prayers néede not but not yet rewarded in their bodies and for that therfore they pray Apoc. 6. vntill they be heard Apoc. 11. Others not straight rewarded neither in their soules And of these againe some without poena sensus punishment of sense only differred as they in Limbo who prayed accordingly no lesse then the foresaid for the redemption of their bodies Others first to be punished temporally according to their debtes Mat. 5. to wit for being angry or saying Raca and them to be not onely let out of their prison because it is not Gehenna ignis for they said not Fatue but also rewarded for their merites And for these againe while they be in prison prayers as they néede so also they boote because the Iudge is mercifull And so you sée no lesse then thrée sortes which your diuision lacketh Pur. 436.444 And therby at once is answered your other obiectiō of the
his first Epistle telleth him 1. Ioh. 3. O my children let no man deceiue you he that worketh iustice is iust Free-vvill You alleage also two places against Frée-will which againe concerneth Good works in generall Pur. 450. We beleeue that man after his fall hath not Free-will no not aptnes of will to thinke any thing that is good 2. Cor. 3. S. Paules words are these We are not sufficient of our selues to thinke any thing as of our selues but our sufficiencie is of God This doth not take away from vs naturall fréewill nor naturall aptnes of will as it doth not take away our selues from vs but onely it sheweth from whence we haue power to do as we do in matters of saluation to witte of Gods gift and not of our selues If your scholler should vpon iust cause commend him selfe for writing as S. Paule there cōmenmendeth him selfe for conuerting hartes to God and then to auoyde arrogancie should say that it is not of him selfe but of his Masters instruction that he can write so well the scholler for all this I trow had vnderstanding and aptnes to vnderstand For els howe could he haue bene taught to write You know the Scripture likeneth the holy Ghost to a teacher Ioan. 6. Heb. 10. Psa 118. and the grace of God to teaching and to teaching of our hartes or wills Your other place I finde Pur. 35. How shall Free-will be mainteined if Gods Spirite haue any place that distributeth to euery one according to the good pleasure of his owne will 1. Cor. 12. You do not denie but Man afore his fall had Fréewill and yet Gods spirite then also did distribute to euery one according to the good pleasure of his owne will And now likewise after the fall doth not S. Paule in the very same Chapter giue some place to mens willes in the giftes of Gods spirite saying to the Corinthians Couet after the better giftes but specially after charitie because that passeth all those giftes 1. Cor. 12.13 14. yea and faith and hope also therefore Sectamini Labour al that you can for Charitie mary couet also after those giftes to speake with tongues and to prophecie but of the two rather for to prophecie Againe He that speaketh with a tongue let him pray to interprete Sée how playnely he stirreth their mindes or willes to séeke for the giftes that God giueth to euery one according to his owne will This deceiueth you that you do not consider that God can worke his owne will vpon our willes and therefore you imagine that he is not omnipotent if we haue willes of our owne Yes syr be our willes neuer so vnwilling he can as you may sée by the conuersion of S. Paule turne them to his owne will and to the very bende of his owne will more or lesse euen as much as he wil. Howbeit I am not ignorant that S. Paule there treateth specially of the giftes called Gratiae gratis datae and not gratum facientes in the distribution whereof Gods will maye and did commonly worke without cooperation of mans will although mans will may in such also and did sometimes concurre as in them that prayed for the gifte to interprete tongues About Good-workes in speciall I come with you now to the species of Good-workes Prayer to Saintes and first to prayer And of prayer for the dead I haue already dispatched Then against prayer to Saintes what haue you Pur. 451. We call not vpon Saintes because we beleeue not in them for how should we call vpon them in whom we beleeue not Rom. 10. Againe Pur. 310. Touching Ambrose and some other also about his time their Inuocation of Saintes was not agreable to the doctrine of S. Paule who sheweth that we can inuocate none but him in whom we beleue which to al true Christians is God only And yet if you remember since the second Chapter S. Ambrose and his felowes of that time were true Christiās But I must kéepe that to your contradictions in the eleuenth Chapter Heb. 13. Eph. 6. And againe S. Paul him selfe was I trow agreable to his owne doctrine who yet so often inuocateth and calleth vpon the faithfull beséeching them to pray for him Well then to your obiection where is your scripture for you will not if you be a man of your worde runne to Doctors that we must beléeue in God onely and that we may not beléeue (a) Exo. 14. in Heb. 2. Par. 20. in Heb. Philem. in his Saintes also The Scripture in your own place and in sundry other places teacheth me to beléeue also (b) Iohn 14 Rom. 3. in Christ according to his humanitie and namely in his bloud Also the Créede of the first Nicene Councell teacheth me to beléeue (c) Ar. 83. Epi. in fine Aucorat In the one holy Catholike and Apostolike Church as you may sée also in the end of the New Testament set foorth by your owne master Hier contr Lucif Infra ca. 10 dem 34. Beza And S. Hierome saith that it was solenne the custome in Baptisme after confession of the Trinitie to aske Credis in Sanctam Ecclesiam Doest thou beleue in holy Church And immediatly he addeth In what Church beleeued the Arrian In the Arrians Church But they haue not the Church In our Church sed extra hanc baptizatus but beeing baptized out of her he could not beleeue in her that he knew not Euen as S. Paule saith of Christ in the place that you alleage How shall they beleue in him whom they haue not heard of His intent ther is that the Apostles preaching to the Gentiles is of God Whereby you perceiue that S. Hierome remembred the place well inough Briefly therefore we beléeue not in the Arrians Church nor in the Arrians Saintes nor in your Church nor in your Saintes but we beléeue in the Catholike Church and in her Saintes because it is God and Christ his Church God Christ his Saints And so we do not inuocate Arius nor Hus nor Luther nor Caluine nor any other falsenamed Saintes of Heretikes but after God we inuocate Christ the man our Lorde and his moste glorious mother our Lady and S. Peter S. Paule with the rest of the Catholike Saintes both beléeuing in God in Christ in his Saintes and also inuocating God and Christ and his Saintes not all alike but euery one in his degrée the degrée of the Saintes being so farre different from the degrée of God as it is incomparable You deceiued your selfe with this distinction Credo in deum Credo deo Credo deum I beleeue in God I beleue to God Aug. in Io. tr 29. Theoph. in Io. 12. I beleue God hauing heard that some Authors do in a certayne sense make it be God alone in whom we beléeue and not knowing that other authors also the Scriptures will in another sense haue vs to beléeue in such as be of God As of
the dead these two places of S. Hieromes are all that he alleageth Now touching Scriptures that we alleage for Purgatorie and prayer for the dead it is good although it be not necessary vnlesse he can fortify his new castellet of Onely Scripture better then yet he hath done to examine whether the Doctors do say as he pretendeth either generally that no Scripture at all maketh for Purgatory prayer for the dead or so much as namely this place or that place doth not Whether the Doctors say no Scripture to make for it For the first Tertullian speaking no more but of the Oblations for the dead which we make vpon their yeres mindday saith Tertul. de corona Militis Huius disciplinae si legem expostules Scripturarum nullam inuenies For this discipline if thou require a lawe out of the Scriptures thou shalt finde none Traditio tibi praetendetur autrix Consuetudo confirmatrix Fides obseruatrix Tradition shal be declared to be the author of it Custome the corfirmer Faith the obseruer Nowe commeth Fulke which also I noted in the third Chapter and for this one particuler is bold to say generally Par. 2. diu 3 that all offering and all praying for the dead is confessed of Tertullian to be beside the Scripture As where he saith Pur. 264. They that is S. Chrysostome with some other old Doctors as also nowe their Successors the Catholikes labour to wrest the Scriptures to find that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be founde in them Pur. 268. Againe Tertullian hath discharged you of authoritie of the Scripture already Againe Tertullian as wise a man as M. Allen Pur. 275. affirmeth as we heard before that prayer for the dead hath no foundation in the Scriptures Againe Pur. 286. Neuer once mentioned in the Scripture and so confessed by Tertullian one that leaned to some part of your cause Againe Pur. 393. He vtterly denieth that they came from the Scriptures Therfore by Tertullians iudgemēt you do abuse the Scriptures Agayne Pur. 410. Praying and offering for the dead as Tertullian himselfe confesseth is not taught by the Scriptures Yet soone after to shew that Tertullian with Montanus had in all poyntes the opinion of the Papistes amongest other poyntes of his opinion he noteth Pur. 417. that all small offences must as he thought be punished after this life where the prison is and the vttermost farthing to be paide Mat. 5. But reseruing that to the eleuenth chapter as one of his grosse contradictions I will here note how vpon the foresaid particular of only Tertullian he is farre more bold then yet we haue heard Pur. 363. For thus he saith They them selues that is the old Doctors for the most part confesse that prayer oblation for the dead is not taken at all out of the Scriptures Pur. 435. as Tertullian Augustine and other Againe Of them amongst the auncient Fathers that mainteined prayers for the dead the most confessed they had it not out of the Scriptures but of tradition of the Apostles and custome of the Church They denied it to be receiued of the scriptures This he saith of S. Augustine by name and withall of the most part of the fathers hauing in his whole booke no such saying of any other neither euen that of Tertullians importing so much but only as I haue declared So then haue I shewed that he fayleth in this that he braggeth of the Doctors confessing against them selues and vs as though generally no Scripture at all doth make for Purgatory or prayer for the dead Now let vs come to particuler Scriptures Thus he sayth Of certayne particuler textes Pu. 103. S. Augustine although otherwise inclining to the error of Purgatory yet he is cleare that this texte 1. Cor. 3. of him that shall be saued through fire proueth it not neither ought to be expounded of it and that he sheweth by many reasons Enchirid ad Laur. ca 68. where he affirmeth that by the fire is ment the triall of tribulation in this life You say that he affirmeth it but he saith that it is an harde place and with doubtfulnesse speaketh accordingly Non absurdè accipi possunt So may this and this be interpreted not absurdly And where you say he is cleare that this texte proueth not Purgatorie and agayne that it ought not to be expounded of it and agayne that he sheweth the same by many reasons All is false No such matter Onely he sheweth that it ought not to be expounded after the Heresie of the Origenistes of hell fyre as though they that be in it may at the length be saued and that it may be expounded of the fyre of tribulation in this life Yea moreouer he sayth expresly that it may be expounded also of some other like fire after this life cleane contrarie to that whiche you here reporte of him though in other places you also your selfe contrarie to your selfe do reporte the same Whereof I shall anone haue occasion to say more in the third diuision of this chapter This is the onely place of all that D. Allen doth alleage for Purgatorie and prayer for the dead which Fulke pretendeth any Doctor to say that it ought not to be expounded thereof But where he sayth thus speaking of D. Allen Pur. 145. For my part I will not refuse to satisfie his demaunde He will knowe and haue vs aposed from whence wee haue that newe meaning of our Sauiours wordes that he whiche is caste into prison for neglecting of reconciliation while he is in the way Mat. 5. is caste into hell from whence he shall neuer come and then alleageth for that sense Chrysostome Augustine Hierome and Chromatius This I saye is passing childishe althoughe it were true as it is not that all those Doctours haue that sense for D. Allen demaundeth no suche thing reade his wordes whosoeuer will Yea straight after reciting the Protestantes obiection That the places of the Olde and Newe Testament Pur. 148.151 alleaged for Purgatorie though they be thus expounded of the Doctors for Purgatorie yet sometimes they be construed otherwise by the Fathers them selues I answere to this he sayth and freely confesse it For that is not the question betwéene vs whether the Fathers haue expounded those textes of other poyntes of our Catholike faith for if they haue what maketh that agaynst vs but this whether they haue expounded those textes for Purgatorie which if they haue that maketh with vs and whether they haue expounded them or anye other agaynst Purgatorie which if they haue that maketh with you As for the diuersitie of true senses the Churche hath euer giuen roome saith D. Allen to the Expositors according to euery ones gifte onely prouided that no man of singularitie father any falsehood vpon any text Howbeit also euery ones true sense is not alwayes the very right and proper sense of that same text Whereof I spoke
the writinges of the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresayd rules in so much that wee compt it not at all Catholike whatsoeuer shall appeare contrarie to the rules appointed You are a great reader of the Doctors I sée Whosoeuer made that Homilie he tooke those wordes out of that brief Instruction which in the first Tome of the Councels foloweth the Epistle of Pope Celestinus to the Bishops of Fraunce concerning the Semipelagians which Bishops I thinke to be the Authors of the same Instruction They take it and so they say out of the determinations of those Bishops of Rome in whose time Pelagius and Celestius beganne their Heresie that is P. Innocentius and P. Zozimus and out of certein Aphrican Councels approued by those Popes And after 8. or 9. such Canons or articles they make an end saying As for certaine more suttle points we are not bound to resolue vpon them We thinke all that sufficeth enough which the writinges of the See Apostolike haue taught vs according to the foresayde rules or Canons in no wise thinking it Catholike that shal appeare to be contrarie praefixis sententijs to the resolutions set here before Againe in Gen. Hom. 58. Thou seest into what great absurditie they fal qui diuinae Scripturae canonem sequi nolunt Which will not follow the Canon of Holy Scripture but permit all to their owne cogitations Hée answereth the Heretikes which said that our Lord tooke not true flesh Then saith Chrysostome he neither was crucified nor dyed nor was buried nor rose agayne Into such absurditie they fall because they will not followe the playne line of Scripture but their owne imaginations of putatiue flesh such as was in the Apparitions of the old Testament What is this for onely Scripture But if we be further vrged we will alleage that which he saith In Euang. Ioan. Hom. 58. He that vseth not the holy Scripture but climbeth another way id est non cōcessa via that is by a way not allowed is a Theefe O Christian spirite if you be vrged you will call S. Chrysostome a Theefe by his owne saying for vsing Tradition As though he vseth not Scripture which vseth Tradition or that Scripture doth not warrant Tradition as 2. The. 2. The thing which S. Chrysostome there speaketh of is this that Antichrist and those pseudochristes Iudas Galileus Theudas and such others also heretikes Schismatikes as Luther Caluine c. cannot shew any commission out of Scripture But Christ and his Apostles with the other Catholike Pastors that succede them come into their cure by good warrant of Scripture These therfore are true Pastors the other are théeues We may be as bould with Chrysostome as he sayd he would be with Paule himselfe in 2. ad Tim. Hom. 2. Plus aliquid dicam I will say somewhat more we must not be ruled by Paule himselfe if he speake any thing that is his owne and any thing that is humane but we must obey the Apostle when he carieth Christ speaking in him And when is that when he speaketh all only by Scripture Will you not obey him then when he sayth Ego enim accepi a domino For I receiued it of our Lordes mouth 1. Cor. 1◠Sée in what a proper sense you vse Chrysostoms words These are the foure places One other you haue elsewhere saying Chrysostome vpon Luke cap. 16. saith Ar. 12. Chrys cō 3. de Lazaro that ignorance of the Scriptures hath bred heresies and brought in corrupt life yea it hath turned all things vpsidedowne By which it appeareth by what means he would haue heresies kept away namely by knowledge of the Scriptures And who would not the same It is therfore our dayly studie and we sée our selues and shewe others thereby the abomination of your Heresies and how you would face them out with a carde of tenne But what maketh this for Onely Scripture to be of authoritie As S. Chrysostome so in like maner S. Leo is of your side you say against vs and against him selfe For where D. Allen alleaged this saying of his Pur. 387. Leo Ser. 2. de ieiunio Pentecost It is not to be doubted but whatsoeuer is in the Church by generall custome of deuotion kept and reteined it came out of the Apostles tradition and doctrine of the Holy Ghost You answere that the saying of Leo the great may be backed with the writing of Leo the great Epist 10. They fall into this folly which when they be hindred by some obscuritie to know the truth haue not recourse to the words of the Prophets nor to the writings of the Apostles nor to the authorities of the Gospell but to them selues In these wordes Leo as Great as you would haue him maketh the Scriptures and not Customes or Traditions the rule of trueth So you gather of those words as also in another place That the Church should ouerthrow heresies Ar. 14. by the word of God onely Leo the first Bishop of Rome in his Epist 10. ad Flauianum contra Eutichen playnely confesseth He doth not saye that all truthes are expressed in the Scriptures though that be whereof he there intreateth to witte the Incarnation of Christ Mary when a trueth is expressed in the Scriptures recourse muste be had to the Scriptures So he sayth but he sayth not to the Scriptures onely yea in the very same tenth Epistle he blameth Eutiches the Heretike much more for not hauing recourse neither so muche as to our common Creede whiche is not Scripture you wotte well but a Tradition Ar. 15. Of the same iudgement you say was not Leo onely but the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt Actione 18. confessing that the Heretikes and Schismatikes growe so fast because they were not beaten downe by preaching of the Gospel and authoritie of the Scriptures I confesse the same howbeit the Councell doth not But what is that for Onely Scripture yea the place is playne for the other side I maruell you could not espie as much euen by the piece that you alleage althogh you saw not the whole circumstance Béeing truely translated this it is If al men had simply and without calliditie from the beginning receiued the Gospels preaching and bene content with the Apostles institutions the matters verily had bene well a fyne and neither the authors of the heresies nor the fautors of the Priests had bene put to the paines of conflictes Who would rest here as you do and not imagine somewhat to follow with a but necessary to be séene Sed quia Satanas c. But because the diuell not resting raiseth vp his squires therfore Christ also in time conuenient hath raised vp his warriers against them to wit the Generall Councels that to this time haue ben holden by the dilligence of the Emperours and the Popes being Sixe in number So expresly they auouch the authoritie of the Councels and you alleage them for Only Scripture wheras also in the words that
places Nowe what maketh all this for Fulke vnlesse he thinke he hath any vauntage in his owne false translation of Acta turning it Decrees Yea doth it not make against him most inuincibly as all the rest also that S. Augustine hath written against the Donatistes for his Church ours that is for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence spreding ouer all Nations to the very last time euen in the same maner altogether as it had done to S. Augustines time iij About certaine Traditions Vpon this question of Onely Scripture I haue stood long because Onely Scripture Onely faith are with the Protestantes all in all howbeit they haue neither Scripture nor Faith Now to dispatche other questions very briefly agaynst certayne Traditions Fulke alleageth saying Beatus Rhenanus a Papist and a great Antiquarie affirmeth that by the Canons of the Nicene Councell and other Councels which he hath seene in Libraries those oblations pro Natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon Tradition of the Apostles were abrogated As touching oblations pro Natalitijs I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Cap. 6. par 1. v. But as for abrogation of any other Traditions Rhenanus hath neuer a word iiij About the mariage of Votaries For the mariage of such as haue vowed virginitie Ar. 45. Pur. 22.23 you alleage one place of Epiphanius thrise another of S. Hieromes twise and all about a matter that we hold euen as they did Thus you saye Epiphanius Hpiph li. 2 Haer. 61. although he count it an offence to marrie after their vowe therein he is with vs you know yet he saith speaking of such as secretly liue in fornication sub specie solitudinis aut continentiae vnder the colour of vowed singlenes or continencie It is better to marrie then to burne that first is not in Epiphanius Melius est itaque vnum peccatum habere non plura It is better to haue one sinne rather then many It is better for him that is fallen from his course wherein he beganne to runne for the Crowne of Virginitie openly to take a wyfe according to the lawe a virginitate multo tempore poenitentiam agere and a long time to repent to do penaunce for breaking that vowe of his virginitie and so hauing done his full penaunce to be brought agayne into the Churche out of the which he was caste as an excommunicate person for breaking his vow as one that hath done amisse as one that is fallen and broken and hauing neede to be bound rather then to be wounded dayly with priuie dartes of that wickednesse whiche the diuell putteth into him So knoweth the Church to preach Haec sunt sanationis medicamenta These are the medicines of healing Whereof you gather and say that Epiphanius calleth marriage of suche men an holsome medicine contrarie to that you confesse your selfe that he calleth it a sinne for so doth the Apostles Tradition saith he vnlesse perhaps you thinke Sinne to be an holsome medicine No syr the holsome medicins are his long penance and his reconcilement to the Church againe But at the least say you Epiphanius alloweth marriage in them whereas the Popish Church did separate them from their wiues in queene Maries time After a solemne vow which is made but only two ways by taking holy orders by professing some common approued rule of Religion to marrie is * Chry. ep 6 ad Theod. MonachuÌ„ lapsum Basil lib. de virginitate no mariage and therevpon it is that no Doctor can be alleaged which alloweth it for mariage if Priests or such professed Monkes and Nunnes do marrie But the sole vow of virginitie and of widowhood is none of those two and therfore but a simple vow and therefore to marrie after it although it be a great mortall sinne yet the mariage holdeth So saith Epiphanius and so say we as some widowes in England hauing taken the mantle and the ring and marrying afterwards can beare vs witnesse whose mariage we haue allowed of though they may not vse it so fréely without iust dispensation as other maried Folke and as their husbandes may because of their vow and cured them by penance reconciliation altogether as Epiphanius here witnesseth of the Church in his time Hie. ad Demetriad tom 1. So is it likewise of the simple vow of virginitie that S. Hierome speaketh saying The name of certayne virgins which behaue them selues not well doth slaunder the holy purpose of virgins and the glory of the heauenly and angelike familie To whoÌ„ must be playnly said vt aut nubant that either they marrie if they can not conteine or els conteine suing to God to giue them strength if they will not marrie We say the same to the same and generally to all others which of two sinnes wil nedes commit one counsayling them rather to commit the lesser then the greater As for example to say that they will come to your schismatical and Heretical seruice when the Commissioners require no more rather then to come vnto it in déede not omitting to tell them withal that they should neither so much as say they wil come because that also is a sinne and a mortall sinne as Epiphanius told those virgins that their mariage also is sinne v. About the Real presence and Transubstantiation About the blessed viuificall Sacrament of the Altar you alleage one Doctor against the Real presence and thrée others agaynst Transubstantiation Pur. 326. It was not the beleefe of S. Augustine nor of any other in that time you say that the Sacrament is the naturall body and bloud of Christ As though it were the mysticall body of Christ which is his Church Vnlesse you finde more then these two his naturall body and his mysticall body Or as though it were not his naturall body which was the morow after his Supper to dye for vs and his naturall bloud which was to be shedde for vs. When will you euer admit any text for plaine and euident Scripture standing so obstinately against these most cléere woords of Christ This is my Body that is geuen and broken for you Luc. 22.1 Cor 11. This is my bloud Mat. 26. Mar. 14. that is shedde for you and for many Luc. 22. Mat. 26. Mar. 14. And what a grosse blindnes is this considering the infinit difference betwene bread and Christ to thinke that being in S. Augustines time taken for bread it could afterward in all Christendome be taken for Christ himselfe and that without all contradiction wheras also at this time you the Sacramentaries could not chaunge the doctrine of it from Christ to bread but heauen and earth cryeth out against you for it not the Catholikes alone but also the Lutherans But S. Augustine forsooth saith Pur. 3â—8 Non hoc corpus quod videtis manducaturi estis c. I will recite the whole circumstance that the world may sée your dealing Aug. in Ps 98. I finde
Virgine was breaking of her vow and the fall of those men was denying of Christ in persecution but they make not against Pardons no neither of those most heinous sinnes vnlesse you thinke that the Churches binding is preiudicial to her lowsing both being giuen her of Christ For what els doth S. Ambrose there but bind that virgine as béeing her Bishop to do penance al her life Inhaere poenitentiae vsque ad extremam vitae c. Sticke to penance euen to the end of thy life and presume not that pardon may be giuen thee of mans day for he deceiueth thee that so promiseth thee For thou that hast in special sinned against the Lord because she was his vowed spouse it is meete that of him onely thou looke for remedie in day of Iudgement So that all her life he bindeth her to penance bidding her not to hope for any pardon at his hands The Emperour Theodosius he bound also Theo. hist li. 5. ca. 17. though indefinitely but after eight monethes penance loused him again with a pardon Who séeth not that all this maketh playnely for pardons and not against them Likewise S. Cyprian in that Sermon and in twenty Epistles at the least maketh playnly for Pardons in that he doth no more but reproue them that be giuen partly of such as had not authoritie to louse at least those deniers as of Lay martyrs of méere Priestes partly of suche as had authoritie but without cause without moderation and to vnpenitent persons partly moste of al both these defects concurring But otherwise although being Primate of all Affrike he reprehended a certaine Bishop for geuing pacem peace to a certaine Priest Cyp. ep 59 before he had done poenitentiam plenam full penance which manifestly was a Pardon contra decretum de Lapsis contrarie to the Councels decrée touching such deniers Pacem tamen quomodocunque à Sacerdote dei c. Yet saith he being once giuen by a Bishop the Priest of God in what maner soeuer we will not reuoke it and therefore we permit Victor to enioy the leaue to communicate which hath bene graunted him NotwithstaÌ„ding that to those Impenitents trusting also but in lay mens pardons he crieth as you alleage Nemo se fallat c. Let no man deceiue him selfe Cyp. sermo de Lapsis let no man beguile him selfe onely our Lord can giue mercy onely he can graunt pardon to sinnes as beeing coÌ„mitted agaynst him Homo Deo esse non potest maior nec remittere aut donare indulgentia sua seruns potest quod in dominum delicto grauiore commissum est ne adhuc lapso hoc accedat ad crimen si nesciat esse praedictum Iere. 17. maledictus homo qui spem habet in homine Man can not be greater then God to louse the impenitent whom God bindeth neither can the seruaunt who hath no commission remit in part or forgeue in the whole with his indulgence that which by so great a fault was committed against the Lord least furthermore to the fallen person be added this cryme also if he be ignoraunt that it was forespoken Cursed is the man that hath his trust in man Mat. 10. Dominus orandus est Dominus nostra satisfactione placandus qui negantem negare se dixit Our Lorde must be prayed vnto our Lorde must by our satisfaction be pacified who hath saide that he will denie his denier His seconde Epistle is to those Martyrs in prison instructing them not to giue pardons them selues nor to appoynt the Bishops so or so to pardon him and his and him and his but to make their suite for those whose Poenitentia est Satisfactioni proxima penaunce is very nighe to satisfaction that is almost all fulfilled and to remitte the matter to the Bishoppes power Note the antiquitie of pardons sicut in praeteritum semper sub Antecessoribus nostris factum est As in time past alwayes it was done vnder our predecessors And yet Epistle 54. the Councell giueth a plenarie to all the Deniers at once that were doing their penaunce because of another persecution at hande Epistle 52. he sheweth Clerus Romanus Sede vacante appoynted that the like pardon should be geuen to euery one in extreme sicknes But I forget my selfe to alleage so much béeing here onely to answere vij Of Purgatorie This Chapter is growen to such length and yet is Purgatorie behinde But the gentle Reader will consider I trust howe lightly any beast may trouble the pure water but that it is not so soone cleared agayne not doubting also but the varietie passeth away his wearinesse As I am likewise studious of method to put all in conuenient order for the same cause And the order that in this part I thinke good to follow is to speake first of the Churches practise and then of particular Doctors Of the Canonicall memento of Oblations and of Sacrifice for the dead practised by the Church First then to proue that for a certayne space after the Apostles there was no praying for the dead at least in some Churches this Companion reasoneth ab authoritate negatiuâ— negatiuely of the authoritie of Iustinus Martyr and of Tertullian to which I must ioyne Origen Epiphanius and a Councell of Spayne though him selfe vnmindfull in one place what he saith in another playnly 〈…〉 Puâ— â— affirmeth that such an argument euen of all mens authoritie is false Therefore thus he saith Seeing it is certayne by testimonie of Iustinus Martyr that there was no mention of the dead in the celebration of the Lords Supper 〈…〉 for more then an hundred yeres after Christ we must not beleeue Chrysostome without Scripture affirming that it was ordeined so by the Apostles Wel then Chrysostome your elder ones affirmeth it as more at large you confessed the same in the 3. and 7. Chapters but you and certain of the contrarie by his elder Iustinus What be Iustinus his words Where you recite them you say agayne Pur. 259. By which it is manifest that in those first and purer days there was â—o mention at all of Sacrifice for the dead But no word so in Iustinus Yea in reporting there the order of the 〈◊〉 â—ist he saith expresly that the Bishop is long about it Iust Apol. 2. in fine you also after he is comâ—â—o Consecration And when he hath ended Those prayers and the Consecration all do answerâ— Amen as also at this day we sée at the later Eleuation where the Consecration is concluded In that long space you can find no time for memento domine defunctorum But certayne it is and manifest say you that there was none and that Chrysostome and al his felowes must not be beleued You might as wel say that in S. Augustines time also there was no mention of the dead Aug. epist 59. q. 5. because he also reporteth sometimes the summe of the Canon without naming the dead yea that your owne
next witnesse Tertullian must not be beléeued because he expresseth certaine prayers which Iustinus doth not And yet betwéene them two you find no repugnance but set vpon D. Allen as afore vpon S. Chrysostome with them both at once saying And where he saith there was euer found in the celebration of the Sacrament a solemne prayer for all the departed in Christ To reproue his vanitie the order of prayers and administration of the Holy mysteries Tert. in Apolog aduersus Gentes described by Iustinus and of Tertullian also do sufficiently declare what was the vsage of the Chrystians in those purer times Because there it is expressed for whom and what they prayed Oramus etiam saith Tertullian pro Imperatoribus pro ministris eorum potestatibus seculi pro rerum quiete pro mora finis We pray also for the Emperours for their officers and powers of the world for peace for delay of the end Do you not sée that in saying we pray also for these he signifieth that these were some but not all they prayed for as if he should say Among other things we pray for these Which other things he had not cause to expresse there as he had cause to expresse these to wit for that the Christians were charged of the Heathen thus Deos non colitis pro Imperatoribus sacrificia non impenditis First you do not worship the goddes Secondly you do not bestow sacrifices with the Heathen at certaine appoynted times for the Emperours Therfore making his Apologie he expresseth the Emperours suche persons things as concerned their Romaine Empire as you may reade more amply somewhat afore This is a cleare answere and therfore inough Howe muche more considering that your selfe also confesse that Tertullian is against you Pur. 369. In so much that you are fayne to say To leaue out of our Seruice prayers and sacrifice for the dead we haue sure warrant by example of the eldest Church nearest to the Apostles times as we haue shewed out of Iustinus Martyr and Tertullian before he became an Heretike meaning a Montanist To which your cauill I haue answered cap. 6. pag. 49. And therfore Tertullian standeth vpright against you with your owne confession more at large cap. 3. pag. 15. How much more againe considering that about the very same time Arnobius to the same purpose wrote thus Cur immaniter nostra Conuenticula meruerunt dirui Arnob. li. 4 cōtra Gentes sub finē c. Why deserued our Churches to be pulled downe barbarously in which the highest God is prayed vnto peace and pardon is asked for all men for the Magistrates for friends for enemies for the liuing and for the dead So expresly he sayth to confound your arguing out of others ab authoritate negatiuè You ioyned Tertullian to Iustinus The matter ioyneth also Epiphanius to them Of him you saye Pur. 370. It is easie to be gathered by Epiphanius that the olde forme of Liturgie was but to make mention of the dead to haue them in remembraunce And because they vsed to make memory of all sorts of men that were dead in Christ he expoundeth it according to the error of his time That this memory was a prayer for the sinners for the iust as Patriarkes Prophets c. a signification that they were inferior to Christ A simple cause why they should be remembred so that neither the old forme of Liturgie liketh you in remembring the dead at al VVil you see a pure Puritane no more then the old oblatiōs for the dead thogh they were only oblations of thanksgiuing for they were taken vp of the Church in Tertullian and Montanus time by peruerse emulation of the Gentiles so you said cap. 6. pag. 53. But this shifte Epiphanius is driuen vnto because he did not consider that the memorie and oblation which the old Fathers made for al the departed in Christ was a sacrifice of thanks giuing and not of prayers for them And againe They had in deede in elder time Pur. 356. as appeareth by Epiphanius the name of oblation but it was for the Patriarkes Prophets Apostles and Martyrs Which playnly sheweth that it was but an offering of thanks giuing You are deceiued by thinking that it is but one memorie whereof Epiphanius speaketh Looke in the Liturgie of S. Iames as also of S. Basil and of S. Chrysostome diuers places of S. Augustines and you shall find two distinct memories And therfore Epiphanius saith Epip Hier. 75. Aerij li. 3. tom 1. Et pro iustis pro peccatoribus memoriā facimus Both for the iust and for the sinners we make memorie And that by tradition of the Apostles as he there saith against your friend Aerius Pro peccatoribus quidem misericordiam dei implorantes For sinners pardie requesting Gods mercy Which is not his exposition as you pretend but the very words of the Tradition that is of the memorie it selfe Pro iustis verò c. For the iust both Fathers and Patriarks Prophets and Apostles Euangelistes Martyrs and Confessors Bishops also and Anchoretes and for euery order Vt D. I. Christum ab hominum ordine separemus To the ende we may seperate our Lord Iesus Christ from mens order pondering in our mind that our Lord is not egalled to any mā althogh a thousand times vpward that man do liue in iustice For how is it possible for he is God and the other is a man Which reason of his was to déepe for your diuinitie He saw that the like memorie might be made also for our Lord him selfe if it were but a thanks giuing And therfore not being made for him likewise he conceiued that the Apostles had another reason therin so to separate the iust from Christ not only the sinners from the iust Although otherwise when the iust the sinners are not seperated but ioyned both together in some one Collet of the Church then as S. Augustine said ca. 3. pag. 16. the same one Collet is at once a propitiation for the sinners and a thanks giuing for the iust Now to the place of Origen which is another of your trumpes that you trust so much in Pur. 249.427 saying This one testimonie of Origen shal testifie what the iudgement of the Greeke Church was concerning Purgatorie and prayers for the dead from the Apostles time vnto his dayes And yet you are fayne to confesse not onely thus in the same place I wotte well superstition in the Latine Church was somewhat forwarder but also of Origen him self in another place Pur. 116. Orig. in Ie. Ho. 12. In Num. ho. 25. In psal 36. ho. 3. Ori. in Iob. lib. 3. to say But howsoeuer he doteth about passage through fire and purifications after this life yet he affirmeth in another place that the daye of Christian mens death is the deposition of payne Wherby it appeareth that either he was not constant with him selfe or els that
24. but kéepe still in the visible euerlasting Church that visibly commeth of me beginning at Hierusalem 4. Rising after Motiue 19. Article 11. Fourthly I require them to shewe any beginning of our Church other then the beginning of Christes Church at Hierusalem Act. 2. As we shew and the world séeth the beginning of their companie now of late by Luther who afore was one of vs nor he onely but all that he drew away after him So that no man can say they were afore that inuisible Protestants because it is so euident that they were visible Papists And to these two or either of them Fulke answereth nothing I require them moreouer in the same Demaund to shewe so much as any first beginner of any one Article of our doctrin so as he receiued it not at the handes of his Predecessors and they of theirs and so forth euen vp to the Apostles As we shew that Luther began his new Articles of him selfe and receiued them not at any mans hands And also if any of the same Articles had in old time any patrone as Aerius agaynst praying for the dead that he likewise in his time was the first beginner of it and receiued it not of his Elders but that his Elders held the contrary of his Article so that his Article euidently was of him selfe and not of the Apostles Hovv this iiij and xxxviij Demaund doe differ I do not here charge them with such Articles as they were of the Church then condemned for heresies for that is enough of it selfe against them whether they were then first begon or afore and therfore I haue of that a seueral Demaund num 38. but as they were then first begunne which of it selfe is enough to shew that they were not receiued from the Apostles whether they were condemned of the Church then for Heresies or no. Now of these matters there are two long Treatises betwene D. Allen and Fulke first in the booke of Articles Art 11. pag. 35. to 47. Secondly in the booke of Purgatorie lib. 2. ca. 13. and 14. pag. 387. to 424. In which places the olde Heresies that they charge one another withall I reserue to their proper place in the Demaund aforesaide as also the chaunges that he sayth some Popes to haue made to the 45. Demaund What then belongeth to this Demaund First touching the argumentes or consequences secondly touching the antecedents The 1. Arg. The one argument is this Our first Authors can not be named Ergo they were none other but the Apostles His first answere is that it followeth not And one while he doth nothing but chafe at vs for it saying Must we finde out the authors of Heresies Pur. 391. Nay iustifie them your selues by the worde of God if you can c as I noted here cap. 7. pag. 79. Another while he will answere it with a witty example of the common wealth saying Must the Magistrate either iustifie a theefes possession or els bring out the author where he had it Nay the theefe must bring out good proofe how and by whō he came by such goods or els he is worthy to be serued like suche a one If that would serue we bring so good proofe for the Article of praying for the dead wherof you there intreat that your selfe confesse we stole it not but that we receiued it from hand to hand of our Auncetors ca. 3. whom your selfe confesse to haue bene the true Church of Christ cap. 2. Will you then quit vs with your witty example charge Christes Church to be a théefe But you confesse cap. 3. pag. 19.20.21 that she telleth you how she came by it to wit by the Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles And moreouer howe your friend Aerius would haue stolen it from hir as now your grandsire Luther would steale it from hir heire What Magistrate after al this wil admit the théefe to pleade against the lawfull heire in such childish maner as you do hauing nothing neither to disproue the possession or the Euidēces of the heire nor to bring as Euidence for your selfe as by my answers in the chapters aforegoing it is most manifest Pur. 388. Againe you say the first author of euery heresie can not be named Where you recken ten and say These and a hundred more heresies shal they be thought to haue their heresie from Tradition of the Apostles if the first author of them can not be named For example There was one heresie of them that were called Acephali because there was no head knowen of them Where haue you that cause I Nicenū 2. con pa. 62. tomo 3 Nicep li. 16 ca. 27. finde that Seuerus B. of Antioch was their head whose name was Seuerus Acephalus And againe that they were but a piece of the Eutichians whose head was Eutyches as the Puritanes whose special head we be not certayne of are a piece of the Caluinists In such sort to shew the author is enough or also to shew the beginning it selfe for that is the cause why we séeke for the author to shew the beginning Which againe is shewed euē by this that the primitiue name of Christians would not serue them but they must haue new names to be called by that I say declareth that they began after the beginning And so we can shew the authors also of the other nine Heresies that you name which also your selfe do in naming of them and of all other if it were worth the while as partly you may sée noted in M. Rishons Table And in no such sort can you shew our first authors And so I am now come to your second answere wherein you denie our Antecedent For you say Pur. 402.413 If any man or men were the authors of our faith as it fareth with the Popish faith we should be iniurious vnto them if we did not acknowledge our founders as they do some of theirs Tute Lepus es pulpamentum quaeris You make D. Allen to be that same non plus of Cambridge Pur. 64. who when he lacked an argument said he would dispute ex concessis You are he euen your selfe Do we acknowledge any founders of our faith but the Apostles of Christ Ar. 47. Agayne you say Thus we haue noted to you the names of diuers Heretikes which first preached certayne Articles of your doctrine Those notes you meane wherewith you noted here cap. 3. pag. 24. the confessed true Church aswell as vs which I haue cleane wyped out cap. 6. pag. 57.58 and will wype away the rest likewise here in the 38. Demaund Ar. 39. Pur. 389. Againe for the first beginning of one particulare you say It can not be proued out of any authentical writer or by any credible author that any before Tertullian who was almost two hundred yeres after the incarnation of Christ eyther named or allowed prayer for the dead or that it was vsed in the Church Tertullian him selfe flourishing
when the matter was brought before the Pope he tooke such blessed order with it as was very méete for his Apostolike See to wit that the Friars new scandalous booke secreto combureretur should be priuily burned for shaming their order say you And what fault was that I pray you Know you not how S. Augustine vsed Pelagius and his disciples in the beginning of their new doctrine when he first wrote against them Tacenda adhuc arbitratus Aug. Retr li. 2. ca. 33. c. I thought good not to expresse as yet their names hoping that so they might more easily be amended Imo Pelagij ipsius nomen non sine aliqua laude posui quia vita eius a multis praedicabatur Yea in my next writing expressing the name of Pelagius himselfe I did it not without some prayse because his life was commended of many Thus did S. Augustin vse one Monke and him the author of a most pestilent Heresie as he proued afterwards And your Christian spirite would haue all the order all Monkes the innocent also shamed for the fault of a few Such would haue bene your care to amend those few and such your prouidence to saue the wheate whereof these fewe might haue made as gret waste if they had not bine wisely handled as Friar Luther now hath made for lacke of a siluer spurre and a Cardinals hatte and as Erasmus also might haue made had he not bene made of by Catholike Bishops farre aboue his merites Yet one shift more you may séeme to haue where you say for your argument ab authoritate negatiuè of the whole Scriptures authoritie negatiuely Pur. 449. And this conclusion M. Allen him selfe made of mans authoritie cap. 13. Purgatorie and prayers for the dead were not preached against at their first entry Ergo they are true or rather there was no such entrie of them as you imagine but they came lineally and quietly from the Apostles But of all mens authoritie it is false you say Howsoeuer the argument of all mens authoritie negatiuely be good or bad who but you would call this such a one All heresies according to the Scriptures Fathers and Histories haue bene preached against at their first entry This was neuer preached against Ergo this is no heresie nor neuer since the Apostles time did enter ¶ Names In the thrée next Demaundes I haue thrée easie and familiar notes by our bare names to know which side is right Ar. 66. and which is wrong To that generally Fulke saith He is a foolish sophister that reasoneth from names to the things In what Logike he hath that axiome I know not But this I know and you shal heare it * In the 7. Dem. See cap. 11. his 37. cōtr Aug. in Ps cōt partem Donat. Ar. 68. anone that also him selfe so reasoneth I know moreouer that S. Augustine so reasoneth Dicitis mecū vos esse saith the Church to the Donatists sed falsum videtis esse Ego Catholica dicor vos de Donati parte You say that you be with me But you see it is false For I am named Catholica and you Of Donates part S. Augustine I trow he will not call a foolish sophister nor him selfe a foolish sophister Againe he saith generally If the onely name of an honest man of a learned man of a good Christian is enough to proue the thing many a knaue asse hypocrite may proue himself an honest man a learned man a good Christian As though we said the argument to be good frō euery name to the thing No syr we say it no more but of thrée sort of names of which the Fathers said it before vs and experience teacheth it and you can not disproue it by giuing any instance For there are in it further reasons then onely arguing from names to things 6. Catholikes Motiue 1. Article 20. First then we say that sith the Apostles did bid vs beléeue that church which is named The Catholike Church euermore to this day they haue ben true Catholikes in déede which were in times of Heresies and Schismes commonly called Catholikes and easily knowen thereby For this we alleage among others S. Augustine wherof you take notice which may be written it is so rare a thing in this your booke against the Articles and go about to answere him with his owne words but very fondly as I haue shewed cap. 9. pag. 182. The rest that you haue is oppositions after your custome As where you oppose to this name your stale exception which here cap. 7. Ar. 69. you oppose to all things of Onely Scripture saying Wherfore howhoeuer you boast of the honorable name of Catholike except you proue that your opinions agree with the Scripture they are not Catholike in dede by Chrysostomes iudgement Againe By this you may see that Chrysostome thought it not sufficient to haue the name of Catholike Your folly in this allegation I detected cap. 9. pag. 172. neither is it Chrysostomes neither doth he speake of the name Catholike nor of the Apostles writings but of the Apostolike Sees writings Ar. 66. Another opposition You your selues will not account the Grecians now since their separation for true Christians And yet as many nations haue since then called them Catholikes as you are able to shew on your side Though they are not so called by you for no more are you so called by them Be bolde to say ynough how litle soeuer you be able to proue To saye the Grecians be called Catholikes is like as to say the Latines be called Catholikes which were forsooth a proper saying considering that not only we but you also be Latines But this I say that as among the Latine or Westerne Christians he that in common talke or writings heareth Catholikes named vnderstandeth vs therin not you so likewise if he heare the Catholike Gretians or the Catholikes of the East whether he be Latine or Gretian he vnderstandeth them that be with the Pope beléeue the holy-Ghost to procéede of the sonne also not the Schismaticall Heretical Gretians And therfore in this example is nothing to the contrarie but that they be true Catholikes which are knowen by the name of Catholikes And so much you say of the name and rule it selfe Now which of vs two haue that name whether we or you Ar. 66. The Heretike Gretians do not call vs Catholikes you say No more do you that be Heretike Latines But yet both you and they mistake not the person when common talke and bookes so calleth vs. Therfore I say we be true Catholikes On the other side you say Ar. 68. And we haue as many Nations and more then you haue that by publike authoritie call vs Catholikes and you Heretikes Who be so called any where by publike authoritie is not the question but who be commonly called knowen by that name Howbeit also of any such publike authoritie no man knoweth but your selfe But this
all men know that those also of your owne side in Fraunce Flaunders c. in their publike Edictes call vs Catholikes and them selues by other names Now supposing that it is our name yet you haue a shift saying Ar. 67. that we boast and trust onely in these names Catholike and Church without the thinges them selues as the wicked Iewes did crying The Temple of the Lorde when they had nothing lesse then the Temple of the Lorde Iere. 7. Mat. 21. but rather a denne of theeues Our Lord both in the Prophet and in the Gospell acknowledgeth it to be his Temple although they in it were théeues and wicked persons So is ours his Catholike Church although some of vs were so wicked as you make vs. Howbeit the wicked both then and now trusting onely in the Temple and in the Church and not amending their liues deceiue them selues how much more they that trust in the cōuenticles of Heretikes which are the Synagogues of Satan On the other side supposing that it is not your name you haue also your shift saying Ar. 68. If you haue no greater argument to condemne vs thē that we are not called The Catholike Church then you can no more condemne vs then Christ and his Apostles that were not onely not called the true Church but also were called Heretikes and deceiuers by the Iewes which were as rightly called Gods people as they that giue you the name of Catholike Church are called the Christian world Nay bate me an ace of that I pray you vnlesse you can likewise shew by predictions of the Prophets and correspondence of Luther the reprobation of the Christian world in these dayes as we all sée the reprobation of the people of God the Iewes in those dayes Besides that you haue great reason forsooth to require that the Iewes should haue vsed those names which they neuer heard of or els you not to be tryed now by them after their institution receiuing and vniuersall vsing And yet againe you will néedes haue the name from vs. Ar. 95. For why might not our Church when it was most hidden you say be as rightly called Catholike as the Church of the Apostles when it was so particular that it was conteined in the narrow bondes of Iury For you say it is not called Catholike because it should be euery where for that it neuer was nor neuer shal be But because that wheresoeuer it be in partes it is one body of Christ I reade of many old Heretikes that gaue many interpretations of that name to draw it to them selues but you are the first to my knowledge that said because it is vna therefore it is called Catholica The old fathers in their Créede were of another meaning when they said distinctly I beleue One Holy Catholike and Apostolike that is Romane Church No Sir S. Augustine telleth you another interpretation Aug. de vn Eccl. ca. 2. Ecclesia vtique vna est quam maiores nostri Catholicam nominarunt vt ex ipso nomine ostenderent quia per totum est Secundum totum enim cath olun Grecè dicitur There is no doubt but onely one Church euen that same which our Auncetors named Catholica to declare by the very name it selfe that she is ouer all to wit beginning at Hierusalem and from thence growing ouer all Nations continually till the ende of the world when hauing taken in the fulnesse of Nations she shall be wholly assumpted in glorie And therefore your Church neither when it was hidden as you imagine neither now that it is open as we all sée God hide it againe can be called Catholike Au. Callat 3. diei nu 2. post Collat c. 27.28 Epist 48. because as S. Augustine so often resoneth against the Donatistes you do not communicate with totius Orbis Ecclesia the Church of the whole world but haue seperated your selues from it from the Church I say which beganne in Iurie and groweth on to this day and therefore as well then in the beginning as any time after was the same and had the same name as the trée of musterdséede is the trée of musterdséede whether it be growen litle or mikle Ar. 95. Pur. 14. But what a thing is this that you speake with the spirite of the Donatist and say The Popish Church is not in euery part of the world For Mahomets sect is in the greatest part Many countreys are Idolaters and the most parte of them that professe the name of Christ are not in the felowship of the Popish Church It is iumpe the argument of Cresconius Aug. cōtra Cresc li. 3. ca. 63. Argumentaris quod ideo nobis non totus Orbis communicet c. Thou makest this argument saith S. Augustine that therefore the whole world doth not communicate with vs because as yet either many men there are of the Barbarous Nations which haue not yet beleued in Christ or many Heresies vnder the name of Christ abhorring from the communion of our felowship The full answere therof you may reade ther in S. Augustine Although I alleage almost nothing but onely answere my length groweth tedious to my selfe and I feare to the Reader also not for any substance of your argumentes but for the multitude of your trifles to say the least and best of them As againe wher you say like non plus that Most Papistes will confesse Ar. 69. that many thinges in their Church haue neede of reformation as not being vniuersally perfect and that it is halting in many thinges from the trueth of Gods word neither yet dispersed ouer all the World but conteyned in a corner of Europa and therefore it is not by S. Augustines rule the Catholike Church Is yours then by that rule the Catholike Church As the Iewes care not if none be Christ so that Iesus be not Christ euen so you reason like men that care not if none be the Church so that the Romane be not O miserable People that must haue such Leaders The Church now may vouchsaue to be so spoken of by you when you speake no better here cap. 3. of the same Church also in S. Augustines time But we tell you with the wordes of S. Augustine for we confesse no more then he also doth by you alleaged wher he repeateth the Créede August de Gē ad 〈◊〉 imperfect ca. 1. Constitutam ab illo Matrem Ecclesiam That the Holy Ghost being geuen founded the Church our Mother quae Catholica dicitur her that is called Catholike ex eo quia vniuersaliter perfecta est et in nullo claudicat et per totum orbem diffusa est of this because she is vniuersally perfect and halteth in nothing though the Donatistes and other like Heretikes do neuer so much triumph in that interpretation and is spredde ouer all the World in maner aforesaide Both interpretations agrée to our Mother and we claime them accordingly saith S. Augustine and we whereas the Heretikes
vndique Ire li. 3. ca. 3 conseruata est ea quae est ab Apostolis traditio In which Church saith S. Irenée that is by repayring to it the faithfull that be all about haue alwayes preserued theÌ„ selues in the tradition that coÌ„meth from the Apostles And where you say for another instance Ar. 2.3 Pur. 337. It is manifest by al Histories that the Nations of the Alanes Gothes Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians in so saying you declare that you neuer read the Ecclesiasticall Histories presuming notwithstanding to write against these Articles which are in maner nothing els but certayne obseruations therof Reade Socrates li. 2. ca. 32. and not onely li. 4. ca. 27. and Sozomenus li. 6. ca. 37. but specially Theodoret li. 4. ca. 32. who as a Catholike Bishop of purpose to take from the Arrians that vayne bragge of theirs sheweth that the Gothes were first Catholikes and not as you say first conuerted by the Arrians but onely by false informations and to much trusting of their Bishop Vlphilas béeing another Balaam ledde out of the way You talke also of the Nations that were coÌ„uerted by the Donatists Nouatians Pur. 337. But we shall know your Histories authors hereafter Againe you say And it is also manifest by Histories Ar. 3. that the Grecians whoÌ„ the Papists count no part of their church but Schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all Did the Grecians conuert them since their Schisme O great Historian The truth is there was great emulation then in the Grecians against the Latins but not schisme nor heresie as yet nor long after and therefore of our Church they were then Howbeit it is not the true faith nor our religion as you say truely which the Moscouites haue but such as they them selues did list to receiue with many qualifications and modifications of their owne such was the fruite of the Grecians emulation and such is the necessitie that S. Peter cast the nette But if Histories fayle you yet one demonstration ex per se notis you haue to proue that not we but you conuerted all true Christian Nations Ar. 2. And what is that If the Papist can proue that we hold not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the Nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ The Papist proueth to omitte a 1000. others of his proufes that you be Heretikes and therefore hold not the same faith c. by the testimonie of that which your selfe confesse to be the true Church of Christ here cap. 2. and cap. 3. Againe We are members witnesse your Separation here Dem. 3. Ar. 2.3 of that Church which conuerted all Landes in the earth that are conuerted to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in steed of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the word of God Witnesse here cap. 8. Where all your absurd Deprauations of Gods word are answered and not that onely but also shewed by the expresse word of God among other thinges that the Sacrament of Confirmation went euery whither together with the Apostles Gospell as the chiefest point of Christianitie Ar. 3. pag. 145. But no maruaile of your audacitie to say we are readie to proue it considering that you are bold to conclude of this saying thus I haue shewed that our church holding the true Doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all Nations to true Religion Then belike all those Nations were and are of your Religion and you will be content to be tryed by them as by Afrike for example whose Religion we know by Tertullian S. Cyprian S. Optatus S. Augustine c. Or if you haue better Monumentes of any other Nations Religion name it and let vs try it betwene vs. But whosoeuer séeth here cap. 3. how you are faine to charge the true Church the Primatiue Church with erring may easily coniecture what you dare doe Motiue 17. 11. Britannie Well we be English men and therefore in a seuerall Demaund I name our Countrie England or Britannie vnto you Specially because the Prophetes as you know speake much of the conuersion of Ilands expresly and namely of such Ilands as were farthest of As also because there are extaÌ„t such monumeÌ„ts of our Ilands conuersion and religion in Tertullian Origen S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Gregory the Pope with many other like and specially in the History of our owne countreyman S Bede But here Fulke telleth such English men that list not to be deceiued Pur. 346. but to see into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles that they were better to consider the word of God the Historie of the Acts of the Apostles and biddeth vs of so many Nations there recorded to name one Pur. 166.332 vnto which Purgatory or praying and sacrificing for the dead was taught You are profoundly seene in the Scriptures I perceiue by this Why was the Actes of the Apostles written to shew into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles Nay is there so much as any mention of the twelue Apostles preaching to any nation of the Gentiles No syr that booke was written to shew onely the beginning of the Church according to the Prophets to wit at Hierusalem and among the Iewes and the taking of it froÌ„ them for their deserts and geuing of it to the Gentils euen froÌ„ Hierusalem the head of the Iewes to Rome the head of the Gentiles And there S. Luke endeth it not caring to tel so much as the fulfilling of that which our Lord had foretold Act. 27. to S. Paule in whose person this traÌ„slation was wrought and not in S. Peters nor any others of the Twelue for causes to long to be here rendred Caesari te oportet assistere Thou must stand before the Emperour Because his purpose was no more but to shew the new Hierusalem of the Christians and so to leaue them to it to know what are the particulars that the Apostles taught And so withall you haue one of those Nations named in the Actes and that no common one â—o wit the Romanes which receiued of the Apostles not only the Article that you require but also all the rest which at this time it hath neither you béeing able by Scripture or otherwise to proue the contrarie so muche as in any one and we prouing it both a particulars and in the totall summe partly by Scriptures partly by other vnauoydable demonstrations Well for all this trigiuersation by which you sée what you haue wonne you will yet be content to be tryed by our Britannie Ar. 49. For you confesse that the Church of the Brytans or Welchmen before Augustine came in to conuert the Englishmen Anno 597. continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time Pur. 332. so that
his doctrine But cleane contrarie we finde so playnly for the Pope and for euery poynt of his doctrine that you are faine to put the reuelation of Antichrist and the disparition of the Church here cap. 2. at the very time of our conuersion For which cause also you refuse as we saw before to be tryed by Bedes historie Pur. 333. telling our countreymen that they were better to consider the Acts of the Apostles and saying in another place that you waye not worth a slye that which D. Allen telleth out of Beda For who séeth not there our Religion most playnly and namely for (a) Beda hi. li. 1. ca. 24. Greg. li. 12. epist 15. the Popes authoritie and (b) Beda li. 1. ca. 25.27.29 Masse the very poynts that your Saxon Homilies do impugne But what saye we then to those godly monuments Who can not say and sée that if they were such as you make them they should not all this while be kept vnprinted neither should that which was printed so soone and so diligently haue bene called in againe for why either they conteine not suche matter as you report or they be but of some of these late Wiclesistes making such as by your owne saying are yet common to be seene Disproue my coniecture if it be wrong Ar. 34. and then you shall sée whether I can reply 10. 12. Myracles and Visions Unto these two Demaunds I couple two others of Myracles Motiue 5.6.7 and of Uisions noting that the very Scriptures do by them commend vnto vs Christ him selfe his Apostles with their successors the conuerters of all Nations and their doctrine and saying accordingly that the Miracles and visions of our Church are infinite Pur. 166.331.333 Greg. Dial. li. 4. ca. 24. Et Epist l. 7 ep 30. li. 9. ep 58. mora l. 27. c. 6. in Iob. 36. Damas ser de defūctis Beda hist li. 1. c. 31. l. 3. c. 13. li. 4. c. 21. li. 5. c. 13. alleaged also by the Doctors against the Iewes also Paynims to conuert them to Christ Wheras the Protestants haue not all this while bene able so much as to heale a lame horse though Luther and Caluine as we reade in their liues namely set out in French attempted wonders Now what saith Fulke to this The examples out of Gregorie Damascene Bede you may spare for your frendes there is none of vs that maketh great account of them Againe I force litle what Augustine our Apostle of whose Miracles and holines S. Gregorie also whose Monke he was doth testify as also of his learning Hebrew psalters written with his owne hand which you count a high poynt c. wrought to confirme his errors neither do I waye worth a flye that long tale you tell out of Beda of him that had his cheynes fallen of in Masse time that credulous and superstitious age had many such fayned Myracles Againe You leape but 600. yeres from Christ to Gregories Dialogues from which time I wil not deny but you may haue great store of such stuffe as you haue miracles now in Flaūders of the honest woman of the old Bayly in London Happy it were for you and you were so honest Neither when she was in Heresie was she vnhonest for ought that I haue hard and the Miracle euen as I tell it in my Motiues is most gloriously knowen at Bruxelles You should haue better played the Doctor of Diuinitie if you could haue informed the simple how to know fained Miracles from vnfained and why Miracles vnfained may not be after S. Gregories time aswell as before You will tell them as here cap. 2. that straight after his time was the Reuelation of Antichrist Pur. 336.338 and that these were and are his lying signes and wonders 2. Thes 2. such as errours had alwaies great plentie to establish them withall This is the very bones and marrow of your new Gospell and yet all worm-eaten and rotten For first what Scripture telleth you that after the Reuelation of Antichrist supposing it at that time whiche you wold haue there shal be none but fained Miracles Apoc. 11. telleth me the cleane contrary Secondly why cannot you for the defence of Christ his true Miracles against the Infidels discouer the fainednes of Antichrist his wonders whereas we discouer the lying of all fond Miracles which sundry errours though not in such great plentie haue pretended Thirdly what Scripture telleth you that the time of Antichrists reuelation was so long agoe It telleth me the cleane contrary as I haue most euidently declared cap. 8. pag. 125. Discouering therewithall your grosse falsation of the Scripture to racke it to your blasphemous purpose A wise Reuelation that was yet so many hundred yeres hidden and the partie reueled taken yet for Christ his owne Uicare Consider their absurdnesse No no syr you that be mysticall Antichristes may of fooles be mistaken and thought to be the Ministers of Christ Iesus but your Lord in proper person shall shew himselfe openly ynough and expressely against the onely Christ our Lord and Sauiour Iesus not so much as desiring to be thought of his side Fourthly what say you then at the least to our infinite Miracles afore S. Gregories time as those whiche S. Augustine De Ciuitate Dei li. 22. ca. 8. reherseth to the Paganes wrought by the Relikes of the first Martyr S. Steuen after many particulars euen six Resuscitations of the dead saying generally Si enim Miracula sanitatum vt alia taceam modò velim scribere quae per hunc Martyrem id est gloriosissimum Stephanum facta sunt in colonia Calamensi in Nostra plurimi conficiendi sunt libri For if I would write but the Myracles of healings to omitte the others which by this Martyr that is by the moste glorious S. Stephen haue bene wrought but in two Cities Calama and Hippo where his familiar friende Possidonius and him selfe were Bishoppes very many bookes were to be made What Scripture haue you agaynst these Myracles Either you must remoue the comming of Antichrist so muche higher which a litle thing would make you to do or els you must bring your blind followers some text that testifieth his lying Myracles to go also so long before his comming and the workers of them for him to be the very Martyrs and ministers and true Church of Christ him selfe For els how will you nowe defend that our Church hath no true Myracles Ar. 85. but the power of Antichrist in lying signes and wonders As for your censure of Myracles and Uisions that what soeuer is consonant to the word of God is to be receiued Pur. 163.333 that which is not agreable therewith is to be detested although an Angell from heauen were the bringer of it as though these were agaynst the trueth of God vttered in the holy Scriptures All this hangeth but vpon the twyned thréede of your owne poore worde though you say neuer
adoring her Esa 49.60 licking the very dust of her feete which they are cōmaunded by the Prophet to do vnder paine of Damnation Ar. 17. Discipline And thereupon D. Allen told you that to be the true Church Which exerciseth Discipline vpon offenders in all degrees And that al true the Christian Kings haue and doe obey her accordingly which is an vnuincible argument for vs against you in this Demaund And yet you haue Kings on your side also since the Reuelation of Antichrist Ar. 33.34.32 The Grecian Emperours that were Image-breakers Charles the great who wrote a booke against Images and called Bertrame to declare his mind vpon the Real presence and transubstantiation and those Princes that defended their maried Priests But least we should obiect that it was but in one or two poynts that these did fauour you Edward the third defended Wickleue Also Zisca Procopius defended the Bohemians and George king of Bohemia was depriued of his kingdome by the Pope for defending the Protestants An. 1466. Which is wel towards an hundred yeres before the name of Protestants by your own confession here Dem. 8. and much more before the religion of the Protestants was coyned For though you say Wickleue I wene you will not deny but he was of our Church and Religion yet you may sée in my 40. Dem. that in déede he was not neither also the Bohemians or Hussits But that Edward the third was a Wickleuist who euer heard though I denie not but that Catholike Princes are often times passing negligent in their office and othe to extirpate Heresies vntill by God and his Churches admonition on the one side and by the wast on thother side that Heretikes in time doe make both spiritually and temporally of all Common wealthes they be spurred therevnto The like absurd ignoraunce in stories or rather malice you and your brethren declare in saying that fonde booke against Images to be Charles the greates who was cleane contrarie Cop. Dial. 4. c. 18.19 Sander de Imag. li. 2. ca. 5. an enimie of the Image-breakers as is at large learnedly declared in M. Copes Dialogues Neither is it Carolus Magnus but Carolus rex brother to Lotharius the Emperor An. 840. by Trithemius to whō Bertrame wrote De corpore sanguine Domini Neither was that as the learned thinke for good causes this Hereticall booke which Oecolampadius set foorth vnder Bertrames name And is not this a substantiall reason He declared that he liked not the Real presence and Transubstantiation in that he called Bertrame to declare his mind of that matter How much better may I reason that both the Emperour or King and all Christendome held the Real presence and transubstantiation because this Bertrame durst not but so timerously about the bush after the maner of all heretikes in the beginning go against it as we sée in that booke No no syr As I said before of Nations so I say of Princes If any were euerted he might in some thing fall on your side But those Princes in al countries that were cōuerted from Paganisme also their Successors that continued in their steppes were in no poynt yours but ours in all things 20 In all Persecutions Motiue 15. Article 7. My 20. Dem. is of the persecutions both before the Emperours became Christians also afterwards whē some of thē were peruerted againe with Apostasie or Heresie saying that the Religion which we reade of in those times béeing the Religion of all Martyrs and by Fulkes confession here cap. 2. pag. 4. Pur. 258.312 Ar. 23.24.25 of the true Church is in al poynts ours and in no one poynt the Protestants And to this he hath nothing but only this that all true saints held the foundation Iesus Christ which we do in his sense he doth not in the true sense as I shewed cap. 5. and therefore forsooth it is proued that they all were of his Church notwithstanding he is fayne to say that some of them buylded straw and stubble vpon the foundation they were ours so playnly in many things as he confesseth cap. 3. yea and in all things as I shew cap. 9. In so much as they haue scraped most of their names out of the Callender wherof I shall speake more Dem. 46. Motiue 33. Article 14. 21. Churches In the 21. Demaund I chalenge for ours the auncient Christian churches with their furniture both afore and after the conuersion of the Romane Emperours also in our country namely as in all others And Fulke no lesse chalengeth them to his side here cap. 2. pag. 6. But before we come to the particulers let vs see his answere to D. Allens argument What if it were graunted that all Churches that now remayne Ar. 53. Pur. 339.340 that he addeth whereas D. Allen speaketh generally were buylded by Papists and for Popish vses what haue you wonne thereby As much as néedeth I thinke Why not For the same chalenge might the Idolaters haue made to the Apostles Shew vs a Temple in all the world that was not buylded by Idolaters and to mainteine Idolatrie Were that the same chalenge I pray you The Apostles renounced both those Temples and that Religion you renounce Popish religion but do you also renounce al Churches that now remayne If you do then you renounce also the Churches of the first 600. yeres for innumerable of them as at Rome c. now also remaine But because you may not leaue to vs the Churches of that time also for feare of afterclaps you thinke good to come to the matter and to say But for all your bragges we are able to shew that such Churches as were buylded by true Christians were not buylded to such end as yours are Constātinus Magnus was a true Christian with you also and of him I told you erewhile in the 19. Dem. out of Eusebius that he builded Apostolorum templum A temple of the twelue Apostles in his citie of Constantinople appoynting his owne body to lye in the midle of their 12. shrines Vt defunctus queque precationum quae ibidem essent ad Apostolorum gloriam offerendae particeps efficeretur That also after his death he might be partaker of the prayers whiche there should be offered to the Apostles glory And at his burial accordingly Much people with the Priests preces pro anima Imperatoris Deo fundebant made prayers to God for his soule And likewise to this day we sée saith Eusebius that he enioyeth there the diuine Ceremonies and the Mysticall Sacrifice the societie of the holy prayers This was his end among others and the same was the end of al our Church founders a Pur. 338. to 347. saith D. Allen. Not so saith Fulke for b Pur. 339. Ar. 52.57 Fulk is no babe you may see our Stories testifie that at the first conuersion of this Land to Christianitie the Temples of the Pagane Britons and of the Idolatrous
Saxons were conuerted into Churches of the Christians Therfore these Churches forsoth had Pagane founders and not beleeuers of Purgatorie as likewise Pantheon in Rome As though that they which conuerted them to the Christian vse were not rather their founders as now also king Henry the eight is called of you a founder of many places that he did not buyld but only alter So then here is one ende of their Churches all one and of our Churches to wit to pray for the dead But they were all buylded in the honor of God of Christ Ar. 53. to 55. and the most of yours in the honor of creatures of Saints Mary well ymet The aforesaid Church of Constantinus was it not called The twelue Apostles Church And doth not S. Augustine De Ciuit Dei talke of Basilicae Martyrum Apostolorum Au. de Ciu. li. 1 ca. 1.4 The Apostles and the Martyrs Churches or Palaces calling thē also Christi Basilicas The Churches of Christ which you make to be opposite one to the other besides infinite like examples And therfore your places out of S. Basill and Didymus S. Augustine Bas ep 141 Did. de sp sanct Au. ep 174 Ench. c. 56. Cont. Maxim Ar. l. 1. Titul 11. De ver rae ca. 55. that a Temple is onely for God make no more against our Churches now then against theirs at that time But the places where S. Augustine answereth the matter for you to alleage them against it is most vayne impudencie He a Au. de ci li. 8. c. 27. li. 22. ca. 10. telleth you the Paganes for him selfe and for vs together But we do not to our Martyrs build Temples as to Gods but Memories as to dead men their soules yet liuing with God Nec ibi erigimus Altaria in quibus sacrificemus Martyribus sed vni Deo c. Neither in those memories do we erect Altars etiam super sanctum corpus Martyris Not so much as them that are made ouer the holy bodies of Martyrs vpon them to sacrifice to the Martyrs But to the one both ours and the Martyrs God do we offer the Sacrifice Although at that Sacrifice they as the men of God be in their place and order named and we honor the Memories of them as of holy men of God Ar. 55. Sozo li. 2. ca. 2. This is the meaning and none other of S. Peters Church S. Laurence Church of S. Peters Altar S. Laurence Altar And euen so of Angels Churches also Sozomenus telling of a Church in Constantinople called Michaelium S. Michaels in memorie of an Apparition of that Archangell there Pur. 344.345 But in the third end you pay vs home for the great grauntes that Constantine made to Syluester Byshop of Rome he made to marryed Byshops of Rome And that were so then crie on a Gods name Viuat Iouinianus Blessing vpon Iouinian and Anathema to S. Augustine who called him a monster yea and vppon all the Churche of Rome where not so much as one Priest would marrie for all his perswasions but so faithfully resisted him that out of hand they extincted his heresie here Cap. 8. pag. 149. Séeing this your impudent most false assertion of Rome who will maruell to heare you say as boldly of England Many of these Churches and Colledges yea the most notable Cathedrall Churches in Englande were buylded for Preachers of the Gospell and their wiues to * Then is the Q. Iniunction to blame dwell in and they were first inhabited of marryed Priestes Is it possible Our stories are plentifull in that poynt if you be skilfull in antiquitie you cannot be ignoraunt of this which is testified of Ranulphus Castrensis Matthaeus Westmonasteriensis the storie of Peterburghe and many other You talke sometymes of a Whetstone as bygge as a Mountayne You haue wonne it you must néedes haue it This our Stories tell that manye of our Priestes had néede sometymes of reformation and that also with violence suche was their obstinacie in that durte as also in other Countryes too often But that any Churches were builded for suche swine or first inhabited by such is a chicken of your owne hatching Ar. 55.56.57 After this wée haue to consider what you say of Chauncells and the Roode lofte of Altars of Chalices and Uestmentes The Churche of Tyrus Eusebius lib. 10. cap. 4. had Cancellos the Chauncell in the myddest and the Altar beyng but one Fulk driuen to confesse altars in the Church in the myddest of the Chauncell So also as the Priestes and Deacons stoode rounde about it Agayne Many Churches haue Crosse Iles. Belike you are sodainely become our Proctor For Chauncelles Altars and Crosses were not I trow in your fellowes late buyldinges which you mention Pur. 342. at Orleans Antwarpe and other places And therefore as sodainly you chaunge agayne and say that the Chauncelles are but additions buylded since the Churches of lykelyhood by the persons that disdayned to haue their place in the myddest of the people as the olde manner was Euen as likely as that it was of disdayne that Saint Ambrose by his Archdeacon commaunded the Emperour Theodosius senior Theo. li. 5. ca. 17. Sozom. li. 7. ca. 24. out of the Chauncell telling him that it was for the Cleargie onely solis sacerdotibus If you knowe that maruellous Storie you may better remember your selfe because you saye In the Orientall Churche as their Ceremonies are diuers from yours so no doubt the fashion of their Temples differeth from yours You may there perceaue that both in the East and West Churche the diuersitie was not in the Ceremonies nor Temples but in the Byshops for many were flatterers or vnskilfull euery one was not an Ambrose Howbeit some little differences are in the Temples also of one Citie but without iarre yea all very sightly becomming our Church Psal 44. as varietie in the Quéenes goodly garment But your Religion may not beare any Chauncels at all neyther in the myddest nor at the East ende It may not beare the length into the East which was and is the common and Apostolike fourme but will haue all rather to bée rounde accordyng to the example of those fewe which before were lyghtly Temples and Synagogues of the Paganes and Iewes as Sainct Maria Rotunda in Rome which was Pantheon and those two at London and Cambridge which you doo mention It may not bear the out Isles to make it in forme of a Crosse lying along vppon the ground No it may not beare any Crosse or Roode at all to be in the Church although Constātinus had a Eus in vi Cōst li. 2. c. 12. l. 4. c. 56 Soz. li. 1. c. 8. Tabernaculum Crucis a Tabernacle or moueable Church of the Crosse carryed about with him in the warres and also in Hierusalem b Eus or de laud. Cōst pag. 367. dedidicated an holy Temple Salutari Signo Crucis to the healthfull signe of the Crosse
the Crosse and the Signes thereof it is euident that in your vsuall rayling agaynst dumbe Images Ar. 4. Pur. 20.21.22.460 2. Cor. 6. stockes and stones you do no more but vtter that you are no more of the auncient true Church then of our Church now which you denie to be the true Church S. Paule in déede saith that the Temple of God and Idolles can not agree togeather speaking of Christians that did draw with Infidels as receiuing of meate sacrificed to their Idolles such as now receiue of Caluins bread But that the true Temples of God and Images belonging to the same God agrée well together you can not denie but you must reuoke your owne confession made here of those auncient Temples of Christ And therefore you do but like your selfe to say I care not what your fathers called or counted Sacrilege But God our heauenly father cōmaunded vs to breake burne and destroy al your Idols and to deface al the monuments of them Deut. 12. And all the godly Patriarkes and Fathers both before Christes cōming and since haue giuen vs example hereof What els they gaue vs example to set vp Crosses you example to pull them downe You may roll in suche Rhetorike before fooles that receiue your absurde principles to wit that the Idols of the Paganes were Images of the Christians But when the simplest Catholike doth no more but denie your principle you are by and by non plus No syr but to auoyde prolixitie I could tell you playnely and at large who were your fathers in these spoyles that you haue made of Christes churches to wit the Donatistes the Arrians the Eutychians yea Iulianus Apostata yea and that you haue out-shot them all and left nothing to Antichrist him selfe but onely to fill vp the measure as I haue sufficiently touched cap. 8. pag. 128. And therefore neither will that serue which againe you say Pur. 341. Suche liuings as are appoynted vs by the Prince and the law we may enioy with a good conscience No syr it will not serue For you may remember the storie in S. Ambrose De Basilicis tradendis Ambr. li. 5. post epist 32. ep 33. He would dye rather then to deliuer the Churches to the Emperour and the Arrian Empresse his mother And so you enioy our Churches with as good a conscience as the Arrians should haue done at that time as you shal féele when you come in your course after your seniors before the iust iudge our mothers husband whose Dowries they be 22. Seruice Motiue 32. Article 6. The 22. Demaund is of the Seruice which Fulke in worde chalengeth no lesse then we saying here cap. 2. pag. 4. Constantinus buylded those Churches for our assemblies and Seruice and in the Cryptes also before that our assemblies were kept But in déede he confesseth that it was ours and reiecteth it accordingly so that I must stande here to defende it rather then to clayme it Pur. 377. His defence of their new Communion booke is this Whosoeuer were children of the true Church would neuer finde faulte with our Communion which can not be condemned by the worde of God and therefore careth not for the comparison of the custome of other men which whether they vsed the like or not in forme of words whith is not materiall so they vsed not other substance of matter except they did it besides the worde of God And yet it must be preiudiciall to our Masse booke not that the hooke was made since the Apostles time Ar. 21.38 Pur. 402.413 but that any peece was added since by certain Popes yea though the very same péeces be reteined in their cōmunion booke also Let al men therfore consider how iust the defence is that I made in this Demaund to wit that no péece be it neuer so new neither in the Masse booke nor in our other Seruice bookes is contrary to the old faith of the Apostles conteined in the word of God written or vnwritten yea the same in substance and cōmonly in forme of words also was in the Apostles and Fathers Churches The Primitiue Church had the same seruice that the church 〈◊〉 hath Let one example hereof be Prayer for the dead and that also in the Canon of the Masse as Fulke him selfe confesseth here at large cap. 3. pag. 16. to .21 And whatsoeuer he obiecteth against the Primitiue Church and vs for it saying they had it of the Diuell c. cap. 3. pag. 22. that it is against the Scriptures and contrary to the same Doctors them selues I haue answered all cap. 6. pag. 47. to 56. and cap. 8. pag. 133. to 134. and cap. 9. pag. 161. to 164. pag 193. to 214. Let another example be praying to Saintes as he also confesseth here cap. 3. pag 10. And what he obiecteth against the Faters and vs for it I aunswere cap. 6. and cap. 8. pag. 138. sauing one place of S. Augustines Ar. 55. vpon which he saith Note that no Sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs but prayer is a Sacrifice therfore it ought to be offered only to God Secondly that Martyrs were not called vpon in the time of the Sacrifice but onely named for remembraunce Cunningly noted as appeareth by these words of his in another place Aug. tract 84. in Ioa. De ve Ap. sermo 17. Non sic beatos Martyres c. We do not make such a commemoration of the blessed Martyrs as of other that rest in peace that we also pray for them but rather that they may pray for vs. Was this to be onely named for remembraunce Neither in the * Aug. ciui li. 22. ca 10. place that you alleage doth he say that they were not called vpon in the time of sacrifice but Non tamen a Sacerdote qui sacrificat inuocantur The Priest that sacrificeth Aug. Ciuit. li. 8. ca. 27. Offerimus domine pater praeclare maiestati tuae c. doth not inuocate them And what he meaneth by his inuocation that sacrificeth he declareth there afore saying Which of the faithfull euer heard the Priest standing at an Altar though also made vpon the holy body of a Martyr for Gods honor and seruice to say in the prayers or Canon Offero tibi Sacrificium Petre vel Paule vel Cypriane I offer sacrifice to thee O Peter or Paule or Cyprian But otherwise for praying to Martyrs S. Augustine is very playne in the same worke the same booke and almost the same chapter telling certaine Myracles one in a woman that prayed to the holy Martyr S. Steuē Aug. ci l. 2. ca. 8.9.10 in S. Augustines owne Church ad sanctum Martyrem orare perrexerat another in a poore man that prayed aloude to the twentie Martyrs in the same towne ad viginti Martyres clara voce orauit And such Myracles are done he saith by God at the Martyrs suite instance eis orantibus impetrantibus And therfore whether prayer be
in such a tongue And these Catholikes now receiue the like prayers of the same holy Ghost but by the Church Secondly that the Church in her publike praiers doth not speake in a tongue because the Latine tongue is not in Englande a straunge tongue so as it were if one should say Masse at Rome in the English tongue And so the question is not now the same as was betwéene the Apostle and the Corinthians but whereas the Church would do all things for edification as S. Paule commaundeth the question is whether this be obteined in the Publike prayers of the whole worlde rather by the Latine tongue that is to saye by the Common tongue or els by the seuerall vulgare tongues that is to say by the Priuate tongues To which question the Catholikes drawing all to common or vnitie haue one answer Heretikes and Schismatikes drawing from the Common and scattering into many Priuates haue an other At Corinth the case was otherwise both because the tongues were vtterly straunge and also because the prayers were not Set and Solemne in writing and custome but momentaneous suggested of the Holy ghost to some one for the time so that of them they were not vnderstood there was no profite at all in their publication And therefore they should not publish them but speake to them selues and to God Reade the learned Latin booke of F. Ledesima the Iesuite vpon this matter He sheweth at large and substantially that it is neither necessarie no nor expedient the Publike Seruice to be in all vulgare tongues howbeit the Popes holines may by the Councell of Trent do therin with any Nation as he seeth cause And Fulke can not nor doth not denie but that in the Primitiue Church all the Natiōs of the Latine Church had the seruice in Latine neither can he or doth he denie but many of the same Natiōs had vulgare tongues of their owne which were not Latine as the Punike tongue the Dutch tongue the Brytish tōgue c. What doth he then He holdeth that all the people and yet once he dare not but adde For the most parte which is ynough against him of the said Nations besydes their vulgare tongues spake and vnderstood Latine And how doth he proue this absurd position By the Germaine or French Councelles of Towres Turon 3. c. 17. Magunt c. 25.45.43 Rhem. c. 15. Magunce and Rhemes in the time of Carolus Magnus Whereas one of his places is so plaine against him that it saith as we do now also yf any man cannot learne so strange and hard was the Latine tongue vnto them his Créede and Pater noster in Latine Vel in sua lingua hoc discat Let him learne it at the least in his owne tongue One other taketh order for Homilies to be translated out of Latine into the Rusticall * The French is yet in some place called the Romane Romane or Dutche tongue playnly quo facilius cuncti possint intelligere quae dicuntur that al may more easily vnderstand that which is said Wherof he gathereth that all the Dutch men vnderstood also the pure Latin tongue though hardly and not perfectly He might gather aswell that all English men vnderstand the Latine tongue and the pure Latine tongue if the Bishops should say as they may Let Latine Homilies be translated into the Englishe tongue playnely that all maye more easily vnderstande what is saide Another doth forbid the Priest to say Masse alone because some body must answer to Dominus vobiscum and Sursum corda c. as also at this time and therefore he gathereth properly forsooth that the people commonly vnderstood the Latine Seruice Ar. 41.49 Cap. 9. Last of all he alleageth the great Councell of Laterane An. 1215. as though it commaunded the Bishops to translate the Seruice into English and other vulgar tongues whereas it doth no more but commaunde them because at that time the Latines were Lords of Constātinople Antioch Hierusalem c. to prouide ministers according to the rites and languages in which the Seruice presently was as it is euident by the words of the Councell And otherwise I aske him why it prouideth but only for those Cities and Diocesses in which people of diuers languages be mingled together and not for all in generall Besides that in no place any such translating of the seruice was put in execution Amongst those 1300. Prelats was there not one but he was either so negligent or so desirous of the peoples blindnes And that neither among those of thē which procured the making of that Canon This is the stuffe that they haue against Gods Church or rather this is the execation and infatuation of them that haue forsaken Gods Church Motiue 34. 23. Apish imitation The next Demaund sheweth them to be but the Apes of the Catholike Church in so much as they retayne of her Seruice and other orders leauing it to the consideration of the learned in the Scriptures and other writings that false Religion was always the Ape of true Religion as in the rest that they haue reiected they shew them selues to be Apostataes according to that I noted here cap. 8. pag. 144. Wherein the Puritanes are offended with their brethren the Protestants onely because they will not procéede so farre in this Apostasie as they and their master Antichrist who commeth to méete them as it were halfe way would haue them Pur. 379. And that is it which Fulke saith to D. Allen The ciuill Magistrates haue thought good in some outward ceremonie or vsage to beare with the infirmitie of the weaker sorte of your side Fulke is no Puritant in hope to winne them Where he saith further All your doctrine is abolished and nothing left but a fewe ragges of your robes to looke vpon And therefore I accorde with you that in déede they be infirme or rather down dead already that will be wonne from Gods Church to such companions by so babish meanes Whether that were the ciuil Magistrates meaning or no I séeke not but his meaning who mystically worketh in you was and is as I haue said Apostasie And therefore againe where you say I will vrge the Papists to tell me Pur. 295. what we say or do in the celebration of the Communion which Christ cōmaunded vs not to say and do or what Christ did or cōmaunded vs to do which we do not therein I say that you be answered already that whatsoeuer is therein against the holy Masse of which we vrge you in like sort is against Christes commaundement who said expresly to his Apostles and their Successors being the orderers of the same He that despiseth you despiseth me Luc. 10. Insomuch that S. Augustine talking of such matters condemneth you here cap. 6. pag. 45. of most insolent madnesse onely for calling in question the Masse or any part therof that is vniuersally receiued Of which matter and of your said Apostasie this Demaund following giueth further
that the vniuersall Churches authoritie was alwayes counted so irrefragable that she would be and was beléeued vppon her onely word in all matters before she yéelded or we could conceiue the reasons of her doctrine And that S. Augustine wrote a booke vpon this against the Manichées which he called De vtilitate credendi Of the vtilitie of beléeuing first before you vnderstand Aug. retra li. 1. ca. 14. Because his friend Honoratus béeing a Manichée did irride in the discipline of the Catholike faith quod iuberentur homines credere that men were commaunded to beleue and not taught by certentie of the groundes certissima ratione what was true Which to our Doctor Fulke is so strange that of D. Allen saying he taketh it to be the naturall order of a Christian schole Pur. 4.5 he requireth to shew where he learned that methode affirmeth S. Paule Rom. 10. to teach a cōtrary order and calleth it a blind faith which must be thrust vpon mens consciences to be accepted before they see what ground it hath Whereas S. Paule doth not say that men must vnderstand the groundes of euery matter before they beléeue for that were contrary to his owne doing who did not alwayes to all at the first speake wisedome 1. Cor. 2. but that they must heare first the Churches preaching to know which be the articles before they can beléeue them And that is it which we say that hearing what the Church teacheth they may be bold to beleue it forthwith although they heare not or can not attaine to the groundes euen as they which heard Christ him selfe and his Apostles after him might boldly beléeue them As he also did worke those Myracles in the beginning to commend his own authoritie credite and thereby to draw vnto him a multitude which multitude should alwayes after him moue the worlde to beleeue as Myracles did at the first Au. de vtil cred ca. 13. S. Augustine in that booke deduceth this at large and concludeth Rectè igitur Catholicae disciplinae maiestate institutum est vt accedentibus ad Religionem fides persuadeatur ante omnia It is rightly therefore apoynted by the maiestie of the Catholike Churches Schole that they which come to Religion be first and formost moued or perswaded by certayne generall motiues to beleeue Wherefore I say that the Protestantes can not possibly be the Church because they do renounce the claime of suche authoritie I say also that neyther they nor no other secte in the world is so happy sure of their faith as we be hauing a Schoole and Masters that we may boldly beléeue in all thinges because Christ hath geuen them the Spirite of truth Ioan. 14. and to vs also accordingly sayth D. Allen the spirite of obedience But therunto Fulke answereth as more at large here cap. 7. pag. 90. That also the Protestantes wil be ruled by their Superiours What simply Ar. 58. so farre as their Superiours are ruled by Gods word Any other submission they allowe not O humble submission of yours who will ouerrule your Superiours as it were by Gods word and O worthy authoritie of theirs who by your owne cōfession may swarue from the truth of Gods word But howsoeuer the Protestantes are affected to their Superiours the Greeke Church with the Moschouites and Russianes in doubtes wil be ruled by their Patriarche of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall Churches by their chiefe Patriarches Bishops though they be not of our felowship and Catholike communion So you say But if you knewe the storie of the Florentine Councell wherein their Patriarches agréed with the Catholike Latines in all thinges and yet could not for all that reduce their Countries from Schisme you would not so say Ar. 83.84 And as towching your grammaticatiō vpon the article of our Créed I beleeue the H. Catholike Church I haue shewed plainly cap 8. pag. 138 out of antiquitie that the meaning of it is according to this presēt demaund I beleue in the H. Catholike Church And therefore you erre where you say To beleeue all and euery thing that the Catholike Church by commō consent doth maintayne is no article of our faith And is not this a goodly interpretation which you bring We say confesse against all Heretikes and Schismatikes I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church or that God hath an Vniuersall Congregation For what Heretike and Scismatike may not say the same And what Catholike may not also cōfesse that there is a Lutherane Church The meaning of the Créede is as I haue sayd I beléeue that to be the true Church whose name is Catholike as in the Articles afore going I beléeue that Christ which is named Iesus and that God who is the Creator and I beléeue all which the same Church doth bid me to beléeue as being the mouth of the Holy Ghost and by her being the communion or company of the Holy so that none be Holy which do not cōmunicate with her I beléeue that we haue remission of our sinnes in the Sacramentes and shall haue Resurrection of our bodies in glorie and for euer afterwardes in Soule and Bodye together lyfe euerlasting All which is the worke of our Sanctification and appropriated in the Créede to the Holy Ghost as our redemption to the Sonne and Creation to the Father In calling this a foolish and false interpretation you do but vtter your ignorance in the auncient Doctors They are the boyes that you count worthy to haue many stripes for their construing it otherwise then thus I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church Suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam Ecclesiam how would you haue construed it not I beleue that there is a Romane church for so much you may confesse being yet a Protestant but I beleeue the Romane Church And what should that meane but as I haue here sayd out of the Fathers As also against all Apocriphalles to say Credo Sanctas Scripturas Canonicas I beleeue the H. Canonicall Scriptures Item against Manicheus Montanus Luther and all other false-named Apostles or Euangelists of Christ to say Credo S S. Duodecim Apostolos Credo S S. quatuor Euangelistas I beleeue the H. Twelue Apostles I beleeue the H. Fower Euangelistes 35 Vnitie Motiue 27. Arti 15.17 Well of this irrefragable authoritie of Gods Church ouer vs and of our humble submission againe and affection vnto it procedeth I say in my next Demaund our inseperable vnitie Aug. cōtra Epi. Fund ca. 4. Ioan. 17. whiche S. Augustine in his Motiues to the Manichies calleth Confentionem Populorum atque Gentium Consenting of Peoples and Nations in one Which Christ in his prayer for it accompteth a most iust motiue for the world to beleeue in him But Fulke notwithstanding because his Protestantes haue it not Ar. 93. nor can not possibly atteyne vnto it telleth vs that also the Mahometistes and Turkes haue their
then they be the Churches nowe answering whatsoeuer obiections you haue brought against them Ar. 5. Againe you say As for the Popish Church she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonicall bookes of the Scriprere from the Apocryphall writings as appeareth by receiuing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. The Popish Church that Canonized those bookes was the Primitiue although ye call them Heretikes which did it as I haue shewed playnly Pur. 214. and by your owne confession cap. 9. pag. 165. and that you are fayne to saye that also the Primitiue Church therein did erre S. Augustine therefore as he saith to the Manichie denying the Actes of the Apostles Cui libro necesse est me credere si credo Euangelio quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholica commendat authoritas I must needes beleue this booke if I beleue the Gospell because the Catholike authoritie commendeth vnto me both those Scriptures alike so he saith vnto you denying the Machabées Ecclesiasticus Iudith c. I must néedes beléeue them if I beléeue the Gospell because they also be in the Canon of the same Church as he telleth you playnly here cap. 9. pag. 165. And therefore they are but words when you said erewhile We allow and beleeue the Primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God And againe Ar. 10.9 We haue most steadfast assurance of Gods Spirite for the authoritie of Gods booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages and so we know it to be true You beleue the Gospell for the Churches testimonie euen as much as the Manichies did because you reiect her authoritie Canon in other bookes as they did in the Actes And therefore againe you do but condemne your selfe when you say Ar. 4.5 The Church of Christ commended the bookes of holy Scriptures to be beleeued of all true Christians And againe The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre In so saying you both iustifie vs who as we confesse that Church so we beleue her Canon and condemne your selues who confesse it to be the true Church and yet deny her Canon yea and generally her authoritie here in the 34. Dem. holding stiffely that she may erre and did erre in many things and therfore making Only Scripture your ground for all things Wherin how contrarie you be to your selfe any man may sée and I must note it in the next Chapter In the meane time I note Cap. 11. cōtradict 33.34.35 Ar. 8. that you shew your selues not to be the Church that cōmaunded S. Augustine to beleue the Gospell in that you say fréely We do not chalenge credite to our selues in any poynt so presumptuously as the Papistes that men must beleue it because we affirme it but because we proue it to be true by the worde of God By what place of Scripture did either the Primitiue Catholike Church proue to S. Augustine or could you proue to the Manichée the Actes of the Apostles to be of Canonicall authoritie The true Church of all times is of like authoritie and therfore that which was not presumption then is not presumption now But what will not your terme of Only Scripture serue you vnto when by it you argue say Ar. 6. Our Congregation hath euer had both right and possession of the Scriptures as appeareth by this that our Church Congregation beleueth nothing but that she learneth in them And that be not a notable plea to proue a right and a possession yea and a continual possession I report me to your Lawyers What a forehead and face haue you to say A substantiall lye that your companie had euermore possession of the Bible Is it not euident that Luther and all that are come of him tooke their Bibles of the Papistes Leaue your impudent facing it is not your new vpstart Congregation it is our Catholike Romane Church which hath continually kept her possession of this Treasure which she receiued of the Apostles She it is that reiecteth no one booke therof she it is that with Gods spirite hath kept them from corruption of all Heretikes Ar. 5. If also the Arrians Donatists Nouatians Eutichians and other Heretiks receiued all the bookes of Scripture What doth that proue but only that those Heretiks should rather be the true church then you and that we might not vse against them this piece of our argument as we doe against you but this rather that they had those Scriptures of vs and caryed them out with them whē they went out from vs. So did also the Greeke Church Ar. 6. and other Esterne Churches of Asia and therefore If vnto this day they haue kept them neuer so safely they are not for all that the true Church Euery Article of D. Allens is not to proue absolutely that we be the church but some only that you be not the Church When our Church was oppugned by other enemies she knew what she had then also to do So she had hath her proper Motiues against the Iewes and therefore it is a wise Demaund of yours when you say Why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully then euer the Papistes We doe not now encounter with the Iewes but presupposing the Religion and Church that Christ and his Apostles did institute to be true we geue plaine notes how a man may know that the Protestāts haue it not as because they deny some Canonical bookes of Scripture the Churches authoritie which is the foundation of the Canon And therefore that no wise man should be moued when he heareth them to claime it and that by pretēce of Scripture and false carde of Onely Scripture from vs who doe so faithfully beléeue and haue so vncorruptibly keapt all the bookes of the same As for the Iewes old Testament I towched your blindnes therein cap. 7. pag. 103. sufficiently and also your desperate impudencie pag. 103. in charginge the Church with reiecting of the Scriptures 37. Stoarehouse of all Trueth Motiue 29. As in our Church at this day a man may find all the holy bookes which the Church in old time layed vp in her Canon thereof so likewise all other Truthes I say in my next Demaunde which in any of her Councels or otherwise she ruled ouer canonized at any time against any Heresie of her rebells or against any error of her owne obedient children that the Protestantes all other Heretikes haue no truth among them but they had it of our Church which Church therefore I say is now and euer and she onely the Stoarehouse both of Canonicall Scripture Iren. cōtra Heraeses li. 3 ca. 4. and of all trueth beside And therefore againe
as S. Irenée saith Non oportet adhuc quaerere apud alios veritatē quam facile est ab Ecclesia sumere No man must yet after all these most euident Demonstrations seeke the Trueth among any others which they may so easily take of the Churth because it is Depositorium diues the riche Stoarehouse of the Apostles 38 Old Heresies Motiue 4. Among the Protestants on the contrary side I say that there are to be founde very many of the Olde condemned Heresies Which is so playne that Fulke confesseth here cap. 3. Aerius Iouinianus and Vigilantius to haue bene counted Heretikes of the true auncient Church for sundry opinions of theirs nowe reuiued by the Protestantes And therefore is fayne cap. 7. pag. 80. for his owne cause to goe about to defende them partly with his stale of Only Scripture cap. 7. pag. 80. to the which I haue made aunswere cap. 8. pag. 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. partely with abusing sundrie places of the Scriptures and of the same Fathers which condemned those Heretikes to the which I haue answered cap. 8. and 9. partly also with more insolencie to charge those Fathers rather as defending Heresie agaynst Aerius c. cap. 3. wherevnto I haue answered cap. 6. sauing that the two Heresies which he layeth to them that hold with the Machabées and with Traditions as the Fathers do cap. 9. pag. 165. cap. 3.7 pa. 12.85 I haue answered in this present chap. in the 36. 29. Demaunds And so with one labour I haue cléered both the Fathers our selues together not to be Gnostici Valentinians Carpocratians Collyridians Ossenes Caianes in our Traditions in our Crosses and other Images in our Inuocation of Angels and Sants and worshipping of their Relikes nor to be Manichées Tiacianistes Montanistes Aerians in our Abstinence and Fastingdayes in our single life nor Gentiles Carpocratians Origenists Heracleonites Montanistes in our name of Sacrifice in our Purgatory Anealing and praying for the dead nor Arrians in our beeres for burying For such is his modesty and Christianity and truth to charge the Pillers of Christ with such heresies yea and moreouer to saye generally as I noted cap. 3. pag. 9. that if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shewe of pietie or charitie they woulde drawe it into vse whiche was the greate corrupting of those auncient tymes That we maye nowe be more content to heare him charge vs and say with all generalitie that is possible Pur. 287. In all tymes when soeuer and wheresoeuer was any peese of miste or darke corner though all the rest were light there were the steppes of your walke Which two golden sayings of his procéede of these two diuine opinions of their new Gospel that the Primitiue Church should prepare the way to Antichrist and that Christes Vicare should be Antichrist Wherof I haue spoken ynough cap. 8. and 9. Such opinions must vtter such sayings And yet not able for all that truely to charge the Church either Primitiue or of later time with so much as one point of Antichristianisme or Heresie as partly I haue declared cap. 6. and now wil declare for the rest They are such matters as agrée no otherwise to vs then to them whom he dare not to condemne and therfore not in the same maner as to the old Heretikes Ar. 21.22 Epiph. s 3. Haer. 80. 1. Cor 11. Hier. in Ezech 44. Of the Messalians or Martyrians you lerned saith he to shaue your beardes and to let your lockes grow long Comas muliebres producunt They kepe their heare long like women Do we so Be our heades like womens long heades womens heads bylike are rounded heades or S. Paule did meane that men should poll their heades Ita ad pressum tondentes vt rasorum similes videantur Cutting them so neare the skin that they should be like to shauen heades Or do not some Protestantes weare round heads and shaue their beardes as well as some Catholikes and some Catholikes euen also the Cleargie in Italie and Spayne weare beardes and polled heades as well as some Protestantes Epiphanius noteth it in those Monkes because they did it in contentione of contention and at that time and in that place when and where the Apostles statutes and the Churches orders were to the contrarie as yet they be touching womanly heades but not also euery where touching shauen beardes It is a signe that you abounde with substantiall stuffe against vs that you lay our heares to our charge Nothing was wont with you to be heresie vnlesse it could be proued contrarie to expresse Scripture Sup. dem 36. so easily we might answere all by your principles and that also excepting ceremonies Yet now conformitie and obedience to comly order for lacke of better matter must go for heresie Sée whether we do not more substātially charge you with the Messalians heresie for saying that the Sacraments and namely Baptisme Theo Haer. fab li. 4. Dam. Haer. 80. Eucharist and Orders do not conferre grace Reade Theodorete and Damascene Of the Pharisees you receiued your superstitious masking garments which you call Amictus Dalmaticus and Pallia as witnesseth Epiphanius in his Epistle to Acacius and Paulus Doth not also your owne order appoynt speciall and gorgeous garmentes in the ministrations And that in the Primitiue Church also were such I haue shewed here in the 21. Demaund and by name if you will you may reade of the Deacons Dalmatica and Alba to be worne in the time of the oblation and lesson out of the Gospell Con. Carth. 4. cap. 41. as also in other places both of them and the rest You might as well or also better haue brought this against the Leuiticall garments in the ministeries of the Iudaicall Temple Epipha ep ante lib. de Haer. Haer. 15.16 You do not consider that Epiphanius there reporteth the seuen sectes of the Iewes and describeth them namely the Scribes and the Pharisées in their common daily garments being Stolae siue Pallia and Dalmaticae siue amicula as we might say cassocks and gownes or clokes vpon them with simbriae fringes commaunded Nu. 15. Deut. 22. to haue made for ostentation of holines certayne superstitious additions enlargementes by which our Sauiour Mat. 23. doth note their hipocrisie Doth not this make sore against holy vestments in the Seruice of God An other sect of the Iewes were Hemerobaptistae touched by our Sauiour Mar. 7. Epipha ep ad Acac. Paulum Haer. 17. who said Neminē assequi vitam aeternam nisi qui quotidie baptizaretur None to obtaine life euerlasting but such a one as were baptized or washed euery day Of these were deriued your holy water saith Fulke to vs which you say you vse to put men in mind of their Baptisme O I sée our fault although we baptize but once for life euerlasting yet we would haue men to remember it euery day S. Paule deceaued vs Rom.
and that no man for much more then a .1000 yeares together after the Apostles time either denied it Roff. in li. Aâ— Petrus fuerit Romae con Vellaeum Cochl de Petro Roma coÌ„ Velli Wald. li 2. Doct. ar 1. c. 7. tom 3. ca. 129. Cop. dial 1 ca. 15. or doubted of it Besides sundrie most manifest argumentes to proue it whereas the Wickleâ—istes and Protestants arguments against it which he saith can neuer be answered are the most ridiculous things that euer man heard Though Fulke bring not forth any one of them yet I haue answered the very best of them here Pag. 237. And most excellent authors among the Catholikes haue alreadie written whole Bookes of this question as Roffensis Cochleus besides Thomas Waldensis and many others that haue chapters of it in other bookes Howbeit the scripture also it selfe is plaine ynough in it if one be not too contentious where S. Peter himselfe doth say that he wrote his first Epistle in Rome calling it Babylon as I noted cap. 9. pag. 156. And for S. Paules being there which is ynough to proue the Apostolike Sée of that Church the Actes are most euident Act. 28. In so much that also Fulke himself after this maner to contrarie him selfe doth confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that the Churche of Rome was founded by the Apostles In which place also he graunteth that in the Fathers time it was an Apostolike Church howsoeuer now he would draw his necke out of the coller by denying Peter to haue bene there But be it that Peter was there he saith in his 2. shift except you proue Succession of doctrine and faith aswel as Succession of men your Succession is not worth a straw Yes sir in prouing the Succession of men onely we doe as much as the Fathers did vnlesse you will say that their doing also was not worth a strawe For a Succession of men there must be the Scriptures are plaine therein as the Fathers shewe But no companie sauing the Romanes companie can shew a Succession of men Therefore no companie but theirs is the Church In so much also that the Scripture and Fathers together doe say of that Succession and of that onely Ipsa est Petra Mat. 16. Aug. in Ps coÌ„t partem Donati quam non vincunt superbae inferorum portae That is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell doe not ouercome And your selfe with your master Caluin doe confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that it continued in the Apostles faith and sounde doctrine for the first .400 yeares which is ynough against you because you also confesse cap. 3. that within the same time in it was praying for the dead and many other pointes against your doctrine 45. Chaunging Moti 24. Article 11. Dem. 14. But that you shoulde not haue any such euasion I made my next Demaund expresly of that matter noting that the Romane Churche as it hath succession of men so also hath succession of doctrine and faith neuer to this day chaunging the doctrine and faith which it receiued of the Apostles Now what haue you to the contrarie Of S. Victor who excommunicated the Asians Ar. 47. I haue answered Dem. 28. that it is nothing else but your blasphemous audacitie to say that he chaunged from his predecessors and vsurped authoritie in that doing Touching also S. Boniface the third against whom you alleage the saying of his Predecessor S. Gregorie None of my Predecessors would vse this prophane title to call himselfe Vniuersall Bishop I haue answered Cap. 3. pag. 24. that you belie S. Boniface For neither he nor any since him no more then they before him vsed that title but the cleane contrarie title Seruus seruorum dei which S. Gregorie of humilitie did begin Thirdly you say that the same Gregorie as Hulderichus Bishop of Auspurge doth testifie was the first that compelled Priestes to liue vnmaried Which afterward when he saw the inconuenience he reuoked And so you destroy your own ensample for if he reuoked it then is not he one that made a chaunge from his Fathers faith You that will not beléeue all Antiquitie saying that Peter was at Rome will yet haue no man doubt but S. Gregorie saw such inconuenience in so shorte a time that six thousand Infantes were straight begotten by the fornications of onely Subdeacons yea and cruelly murdered yea and all their heades caste into one certaine poole and therefore found and taken vp by tale Witnesse of all this one that being Bishop of Auspurge wrote to Pope Nicolas the first who was dead 56. Cop. dial 1 cap. 22. yeares before this man was made Bishop He that will Laugh more at large at the fable let him reade M. Cope As for Priestes Mariage I noted cap. 3. pag. 12. cap. 6. pag. 43. How they counted Iouinian an Heretike and a monster long before S. Gregories time for allowing of it These are all the chaunges that you note in the Church of Rome vnlesse I must count this another where you note D. Allen to confesse Pur. 68. that the old vsage of the Church was first to set satisfaction and then to absolue though now of late to absolue before satisfaction hath bene more vsed Both maners haue bene alwayes vsed but the first of old more then the second and the second of late more then the first This saith D. Allen and it is euident to them that are skilfull in Antiquitie namely such as did not make their confession before they fell sore sicke they were absolued incontinently and did their Penaunce afterwards if they recouered Hereticall Bishoppes and Priestes were oftentimes receyued vppon cause by onely absolution without all satisfaction yea and permitted to continue in their honours also The Churches care both then and now was and is to haue all sinners truely contrite before absolution and that is sufficient before God Neuerthelesse suche as haue offended afore also are caused to doe their duetie accordingly A straunge matter that these Heretikes who haue quite taken all away should controll the Church although she also had taken all away howe muche lesse considering that she hath not taken any piece away but onely putteth that more often to the second place whiche she was wonte as it is a thing indifferent to put in the firste place more often and that according to her power to edifie and not to destroye seeing the people now so careles that rather then they will doe suche penaunce for satisfaction they will not come to confession and so dying without absolution goe to damnation and seeing withall that whereas satisfaction is no satisfaction vnlesse the partie bee firste in grace his owne contrition before was alone but nowe it hath the helpe of absolution whiche of it selfe conferreth grace that nowe his satisfaction muche more probablye then before is not baren And therefore muche lesse satisfaction nowe like to be more auayleable then muche more before and
vs to death for it Ioan. 19. to say we be no Martyrs but Traytors Euen as the perfidious Iewes made as though our Master could not be king ouer our Soules but by Treason agaynst Cesar So the Heretikes say of his Vicare In suche casting of their blasphemous mouthes into heauen they doe but consent to the wicked that shedde the Saintes bloud Those whom Gods Church hath declared to be Saintes it is not Fulke nor his baudy Bale that with all their durt can blotte them out of the booke of life If S. Liberius were once an Arrian might he not be canonized for a Saint repenting afterwards Was not S. Augustine once a Manichée Yet the trueth is as D. Sanders sheweth at large that he neuer was an Arrian nor neuer saide of any so to be but onely by compulsion to haue subscribed to the Arrians against his owne conscience or rather not to the Arrians but onely to the deposition of Athanasius So one or two of the Doctors wrote béeing deceyued with the false rumour that the Heretikes had spredde before the trueth was set out in the Ecclesiasticall Historie But where was your witte when you alleaged against Canonization the example of burning Hermannus the Heretikes boanes who neuer was canonized by commaundement of Bonifacius 8. in Ferraria where they had worshipped him twentie yeres Apocryphally You say king Henry the sixt should haue bene canonized but onely for lacke of money ynough When you bring your authors you shall receiue your answere We can not proue you say that the Pope and our Church hath canonized the Apostles and principall Martyrs To make holydayes of them to name them among the Saints in Diptychis in the holy Canon of the Masse is not this proufe sufficient of their canonization yea and that the Primitiue Church which did so canonize them was not your church because you haue taken away their Dyptica and their dayes of S. Laurence I say and of so many other most glorious Martyrs which had suche canonicall memories in the Primitiue Churche also Yea and would take away the Apostles dayes also if you might haue your will as you vttered here in the 22. Dem. in speaking against all dayes of Saintes O but you haue a better waye to know Saints to wit they whose names are written in the booke of life You might do well to set out that booke in print that we might correct our Callendar after it If you haue not the booke it selfe haue you any more certayne way to know who are written in it then is the Churches declaration Or do you allow her testimonie in canonizing some Scripture for Gods word Saint Fulke by his ovvne industrie reiect it in canonizing some men for Gods Saintes But it is great iniurie to the Saintes of God that they be not so accounted while they liue Belike you would be called Saint Fulke that out of hand But for ought that I know you must tarry vntill you extend your doctrine and certaintie of Predestination farther For as yet you teach no more but that your selfe must and do knowe your selfe to be predestinate and so may canonize your selfe for a Saint for euer when you teach that others must know as much of you then blame them if they also do not canonize you And in the meane time blame not the Pope for canonization nor cōpare it to the making of Gods which the Heathen vsed séeing it is no greater a matter then your selfe can doe nor the title greater then men aliue should haue and specially séeing Iohn Hus and Ierome of Prage haue as you say as solemne feastes in your Bohemians Callender as Peter and Paule No man els néedeth to take the paynes your selfe build vp againe with one hand that which you pulled downe with the other 47 Communion of Saintes The next Demaund is about The Cōmunion of Saintes Moti 43. that is to say of all Christians to shew our Countreymen to what a paucitie and against what a multitude they ioyne them selues and that in the matter of saluation or damnation So it is that Fulke doth brag of the most part of Europe here in the 9. Dem. and cap. 9. pag. 177. naming England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia Spayne Italy I denie not but there are Heretikes in al these Countreys at the least in corners And therefore if all Heretikes be of your religion and communion that you may bragge as you doe But the trueth is that euen those Heretikes also which be of your Religion out of England if any be for I doubt whether any will allow a woman to be head of the Church but only your selues to name no other of your peculiar articles yet are they not I say of your communion nor you of theirs as appeareth euidently by this that neither in a Generall Councell if you should hold any you haue authoritie one ouer another no more then two distinct Realmes with their seuerall kings haue authoritie one ouer the other in worldly matters But Catholikes in the meane time whersoeuer they are they be al of one Religion of one communion Therfore to giue the ignorant some light in these matters as S. Augustine said often against the Donatists Aug. de vn Eccl. 3. De pastorib ca. 8. so do I. I say two things first that in all Nations parts of Nations where any of al these Sects are found Catholikes also are found dayly do encrease One example for all of our owne Countrie best knowen to our Countreymen where although they be turned out of all their Churches as in very few others yet the multitude of the people is knowen to be stil Catholike in hart of our communion though drawen against their wills to the contrarie yea and innumerable of them recōciled as all in maner would be who séeth not if they were at their owne libertie Secondly I say that Catholikes are in many Nations and partes of Nations where none at all of the Sectes are or so fewe that they are not to be counted of as in all Spayne all Portugall all Italie most partes of Fraunce many partes of Germanie c. Wherby any man may easily conceiue that the Catholikes at this day in Europe are incomparably more then all the Sectaries put together encreasing withall euery day specially by meanes of Seminaries and Iesuites for the purpose and they diminishing How much more adding to these the Catholikes that be in Africa and in Asia among the old named Christians of those parts And more againe infinitely adding yet the innumerable new Christians in the farder partes of them both conuerted within these fiftie yeres by the Iesuites And agayne the like in Nouo orbe vnder the king of Spayne by the Friers in so much that many yeares since it is written of that alone Surius ad An. do 1558. Tot autem hominū millia in illo nouo orbe Christi c. So
also for hereafter Euen as Fulke also him selfe saith Ar. 78. Pur. 298. In despight of the diuel and all her enemies she is to this day preserued and shall be to the worlds ende and none other but she Moti 48. 51 Apostasie Last of al I shew that it is not so much an Heresie as a plaine Apostasie from Christ that the Protestants haue brought in vnder the name of the Gospel Wherof also I haue said ynough ca. 8. pag. 118. So that if it were euer damnable to giue eare to any Heretikes it is damnable to giue eare to these Which it were good for all men to thinke earnestly vpon before it be to late ¶ The eleuenth Chapter What grosse Contradictions Fulke is driuen to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof BEsides all that hath bene yet said another most iust motiue not to follow the Protestants may be this to any reasonable man because they know not themselues what to holde nor what to say and therefore doe vtter straunge contradictions in their bookes by reason that they will say any thing rather then yéelde plainely to the trueth A notable ensample hereof we haue in Fulke specially about the question of the Church in his booke of the Articles as I will here note very briefely leauing to the discrete Readers consideratiō what I might enlarge vpon euery particular First as touching the Church of Rome on the one side thus he saith Ar. 96. You are neuer able to answere the argumentes that Peter was neuer at Rome And then where is the Apostolike Sea succession c Then on the contrarie side The Church of Rome was founded by the Apostles b Pur. 373.361.374 it was an Apostolike Church 2 c Pur. 373.374 Those auncient Fathers whom D. Allen doth name the last of them is Vincentius Lirinensis An. 420. did appeale to the iudgement of the Church of Rome against all heresies and c Pur. 373.374 among the Apostolike Churches specially named the Church of Rome because it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles Yet contra where d Apud Au. de gra Chr. cont Pelag. c. 43 Pelagius within that compasse commended S. Ambrose for the Romaine faith and most pure sence in the Scriptures Fulke saith therevpon e Pu. 405. And by the way note here the Hereticall bragge of the Romaine faith 3 Speaking of the same Fathers and Church of Rome f Pur. 374. It had by Succession reteined euē vntill their dayes that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra g Ar. 85. She the Church of Rome hath had no orderly Succession of Bishops except so many Schismes as they write of be orderly Successions By the time of those Fathers there had bene foure Schismes 4 h Pur. 373.374 It continued at that time in the doctrine of the Apostles h Pur. 373.374 it reteined by Succession that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra He charged it with sundrie errors here Cap. 3. .4 namely P. Liberius with Arrianisme P. Innocentius for housling of Infantes eight Popes for the Supremacie 5 i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. It was a true Church an Apostolike Church i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. a faithfull Church true i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. and Apostolike Faith and Religion haue dwelled in her Contra k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 The Church of Rome neuer preached the word of trueth She neuer had sence she first arose the ministring of Sacramentes according to Christes institution The true Catholike Church hath ouerthrowen Heresies of all sortes But the Popish Church was neuer able to encounter with Heretikes k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 Rome may be a nurse of Antichristians but neuer did good vnto Christians k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 I am able to proue that the Primitiue Church affirmed a Supra pag. 29. your Church to be the Church of Antichrist He meaneth the l Supra ca. 9. pag. 155. places of S. Irenée S. Hierome S. Augustine calling Rome Babylon which he vnderstandeth as though they had so called the Church of Rome in their time also as the Protestants doe now at this time 6 m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie whereof the whore beareth a cuppe full out of which all Nations haue drunke m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. Euen from the Apostles time the diuell neuer left to set in his foote for his sonne Antichristes dominion vntill he had placed him in the Temple of God prepared the wide world for his walke and then came m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Generall defection Contra Ar. 38.16.33.34 Supr p. 117. All Nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes For as it hath bene often said the Greeke Church and all other Orientall Churches of Asia and Africa neuer receiued the Popish Religion in many chiefe pointes and specially in acknowledging the Popes authoritie they will not vnto this day acknowledge her doctrine to be Catholike nor her authoritie to be lawfull And yet we shall now heare that the preuailing of the Popes religion and his Antichristian exaltation consisteth specially in that point Ar. 36. 7 The religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled in the yere of our Lord 607. in which the Pope first obteined his Antichristian exaltation to wit Bonifacius the 3. of Phocas the Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church Contra in the same place Because you speake of the first entring of Popish religion which dependeth chiefly vpon the Popes authoritie it first began to aduaunce it selfe in Victor about the yere of our Lord 200. And likewise in diuers others before S. Bonifacius the third as he confesseth here cap. 3. and withall that the Church of Rome all that while was the Church of Christ and not of Antichrist Ar. 102. Pur. 287.238 8 The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie Euen in the Apostles time and from that time in all times whensoeuer and wheresoeuer was any peece of myste or darke corner though all the reste were light there were the steppes of your walke It may be a shame for you Papistes to leaue and condemne for heresie all that is true in the Fathers writings and agreable to the Scripture Ar. 43. Contra where he distinguisheth the Religion of the Papistes from the great heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the chief foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Sabellians and such like monsters Ar. 43.36.38 Supra c. 10. pag. 223. 9 We say not that the Religion of the Papists came in sodenly but that it entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espyed by the true Pastors beeing earnestly occupied against great
heresies not preached against winked at because it had a shew of pietie and charitie and at length allowed of Augustine and others who followed the common errors of their time Specially when a Generall defection and departing from the faith was foreshewed what maruell were it if none coulde preach against it as it first entred Ar. 92.36.37 Contra The Churche of Christ in such places as she is suffreth no man damnably abusing her Religion without open reprehension Ar. 11. 10 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions contrarie to the word of God as her duetie was and fought against them and obteined the victorie and triumphed ouer them Pur. 419. Ar. 35.36 Contra In those auncient times they of the true Catholike Church did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the worde of God but if Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shewe of pietie or charitie they would drawe it into vse So they tooke into the Church of Christ many abuses and corruptions vntill at the length An. 607. the religion of the Papistes preuayled And c since that time that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yere 1414. 11 That blasphemous heresie of Purgatorie To the Reader Pu. 26.166.184.177.269.362.363.419.186 which is moste blasphemous against Christ against the bloud of Christ against his merites and satisfaction for our sinnes and against Gods vnspeakable mercies and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all thē that beleue it nothing conuenient for the disciples members of Christ No suffrages were made for the dead by the Apostles or their lawfull successors Contra here cap. 3. he confesseth that the Fathers held it and yet notwithstanding that they were members of the true Church ca. 2. and held the foundation Iesus Christ cap. 5. and all the substance of true doctrine z Pur. 393.405 And also that they did inuocate Saintes denying in other y Supr pa. 139.140 places that such be true Christians The like q Su. p. 141. of Fasting 12 x Pur. 51.26.166.177.184 The opinion of Purgatorie satisfaction of sinnes after this life is the very doctrine of licentiousnesse to mainteine wicked men in their presumptuousnes For what hast will they make to amendment newnes of life when they haue hope of release after their death Contra As S. Augustine saith Pur. 448. it is but for smal faultes or as M. Allen saith for great faultes that by penaunce are made small And is God suche a mercifull father to punishe small faultes so extremely in his children whom he pardoneth of all their great and haynous sinnes O blasphemous helhoundes Sée how vehement he is in contradicting him selfe to iustifie that saying of D. Allens I am well assured there dare no man Pur. 150. though he were destitute of Gods grace yet not for shame of him selfe affirme that the doctrine of Purgatorie is hurtfull to vertuous life Considering that people with vs are told that to escape hell it selfe they must do much more then the Protestants require and more againe to escape Purgatorie according to S. Augustines threatning here cap. 9. pag. 212. 13 How long soeuer the true Church were hidden Ar. 73. Supra ca. 1. whether it were a 1000. yeres or 2000. yeres this is certayne that out of this Church none could be saued Contra here ca. 5. he counteth it ynough if the faith of their saluation were in the onely foundation Iesus Christ and that in such a sense as agréeth to men in déede out of the Church Ar. 61 74. Pur. 238. 14 They which hold the foundation that is Christ to wit the Article of Iustification by the onely mercie of God and of the onely Sonne of God are doubtlesse members of the true Church of Christ Contra here cap. 10. pag. where he saieth that the Anabaptistes are abominable heretikes and that they are not Protestants who yet do hold that article iump as the Protestants do Ar. 36.38 Ar. 71.78.79.80 15 A generall departing from the faith was foreshewed and it was fulfilled An. 607. Contra The Church was neuer lost neither when the departing was Generall but hidden in the wildernesse that is from the eyes of the world She is to this day preserued and shal be to the worldes end Christ hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth he hath neuer ben a head without a body Ar. 2.96.26.27 16 The Primitiue Church of the Apostles hath continued vnto this day by succession not of persons and places but of doctrine faith and trueth These very wordes conteine a manifest contradiction For how can a Church or doctrine faith and truth cōtinue but in persons and places in so much that he saith also We doubt not but God hath alway stirred vp some faithful teachers that haue instructed his Church in the necessarie pointes of Christian doctrine Ar. 15.79 17 The true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast inseperable from Christ her head though the blind worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse Contra in the same place The true Church vnder the Emperours Constantinus Constans and Valens was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius And in another place Ar. 79. The visible Church may become an adultresse and be deuorced from Christ And so is that faithfull Church of Rome become an harlot Ar. 79. 18 The true Church consisting of Gods elect and the liuely members of the body of Christ shal neuer commit such adultery c. But the visible Church may separate her selfe from Christ As though there were another Church besides the visible Church and so two Churches Ar. 65. Contra Wheresoeuer the Catholike Church be in partes it is one body of Christ And therfore in dede there is neuer no Church but the visible Church the other is but an imagination of the Protestants to delude the world withall As though Luther and the rest that appeared with him had afore their appearing bene secrete Protestants whereas in deede they were open Papistes 19 Anno 607. the Church fled into the wildernes that is Ar. 16.27.79.36 out of the sight and knowledge of the world there to remaine a long season where all this while God hath preserued her vntill suche time as he thought good now in our daies to bring her out of her secrete place in the wildernes into the open sight of the world againe Contra Ar. 77. Diuers times it was bold to chalenge preaching and ministring of the Sacraments yea and so boldly that it cost many of the chalengers their liues As Berengarius Bruno Marsilius de Padua Ioannes de Gaudano Ioannes Wickleue Walden Ioannes Hus Ieronymus de Praga c. Where besides his manifest contradiction I note two things against him one that it cost not all these yea very few of these
meant of the Apostles and their successors the ministers of the Church he teacheth them aboue al other men to looke diligently to their life conuersation for as they excell in place dignitie so the eyes of all men are set vpon them As a citie builded vpon an hill must needes be seene of all that come neare it so they beeing placed in so high an office and dignitie shall be noted and marked aboue all other men One part of the Church is alwayes visible to the eyes of all men and can not be hidden and yet the whole Church and so also that part is not alwayes visible but may be hidden and was hidden for a 1000. yeres So he saith 31 b Ar. 35. Pur. 458. The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles time And so the error of praying for the dead was continued frō a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The Primitiue pure Church for the space of an hundreth yeares after Christ Againe Ar. 16. Pur. 458. An. 607. The Church fled into the wildernes there to remaine a long season where she hath not decayed but bene alwayes preserued vntill God should bring her againe to open light now in our dayes c Pur. 364. The true Church shall neuer decay but alway raigne with Christ The false Synagoge shall dayly more and more decay vntill it be vtterly destroyed with Antichrist the head therof If this be not contradiction it is much worse to wit that Luther and his Apostles haue giuen vs a visible Church which shall not decay Whereas Christ and his Apostles gaue vs a visible Church which did decay yea and plainly departe away into Apostasie 32 At euery word he calleth the Pope Antichrist and the head of the malignant Church Contra in some places he maketh two distincte heades and their distincte companies Ar. 16.95 As when Mahomet in the East and Antichrist the Pope in the west seduced the world then the Church fled into the wildernes Againe The Popish Church is not in euery parte of the world for Mahomets sect is in the greatest parte 33 That the true Church may erre and hath erred notwithstanding any priuilege it hath by Gods Spirite we hard him say cap. 3. Nowe to the contrarie Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 Neither hath the Spirite of God failed to leade her into all trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 There be some prerogatiues of Gods Spirite that are necessarie for the saluation of Gods elect as the gift of vnderstanding the gift of faith c And these the Spouse of Christ hath neuer wanted Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 True Faith c. might be signes of the true Church The Spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ and is ruled thereby The Church of God is the piller stay of truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 so called because that wheresoeuer the Church is either visible or inuisible ther is the truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 S. Paul by this title doth admonish Pastors and preachers how great a burden and charge they susteine that the truth of the Gospell can not be cōtinued in the world but by their ministery in the Church of God which is the piller and stay of truth This their duety true preachers considering are diligent in their calling to preach the trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 As our Church is the piller and stay of trueth so is she also the house of trueth which knoweth nothing but him that is the trueth it selfe Iesus Christ his most holy Scripture in which this trueth is signed and testified Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 We require you to beleeue the true Cathòlike Church onely and immediatly againe to the contrarie We require you not to beleue any one companie of men more then another 34 The error of Purgatorie and praying for the dead is continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ Pur. 458. vnto a playn departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The true and onely Church of God is so guyded by Gods spirite Ar. 88. and directed by his word that she can not induce any damnable error to continue No nor suffereth any man damnably abusing her religion without open reprehension and yet Purgatorie c. came in with silence 35 Ar. 5.4.9 The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne true writings from counterfectes and the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre Ar. 5.4.9 She hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleeued of all true Christians Ar. 5.4.9 We persuade vs of the authoritie of Gods booke because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirite for the authoritie of it with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages Contra Pur. 219. All other writings are in better case then the Scriptures are with you For other writings may be coūted the works of their authors without your censure the holy Scripture may not be counted the word of God except you liste so to allow it Other writings are of credite according to the authoritie of the writers The holy Scriptures with you haue not credite according to the authoritie of God the author of them but according to your determination Ar. 65. Ar. 82. 36 Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for Heretikes haue proued so in deede Contra This Demaund hath a false principle that the Church ought to be a Christian mans onely it is not in D. Allens principle staye in all troubles and tempestes Ar. 65. 37 And therefore the Papistes being called and counted Heretikes of true Christians that is of the Protestantes without doubt are Heretikes in deede Contra He is a foolish Sophister Ar. 66. that reasoneth from names to things as you do most vainely and childishly Ar. 86. Pur. 367. 38 There is neuer Heresie but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Contra Augustines argument of the publike prayers of the Church tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of trueth that is in it but by their owne confession and graunt of that prayer to be godly and them to be of the Church that so prayed But now the controuersie is not onely of the substance of doctrine but of the Church it selfe also The Donatistes chalenged the Church to them selues Ar. 60.61 39 But for the chiefe poyntes of Christian Religion and the foundation of our faith that is Real presence c. the most approued writers are vtterly agaynst you and therefore can not be of your Church Contra But the Lutheranes and Zuinglians as it pleaseth you to call them are of one true Church although they differ in one opinion concerning the Sacrament the one affirming a Real presence the other denying it Out
of Iamnia for the which God suffered c 2. Mac. 12. ver 32.40 thē to be ouerthrowen after Pentecost by the souldiers of Gorgias And then Iudas sent that money to those vnspotted Priests at Ierusalem to offer Sacrifice for their sinne The chiefe of which Priests in the absence of Iudas him self were his brethren Ionathas and Simon and not Menelaus nor any of those other Apostataes You might haue learned by those bookes that the succession of the true Pontifices or High Priestes for that time was this a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Onias e 1. Mac. 2. ver 1.70 Mathathias f 1. M. 3. v. 1. 1. M. 9. v. 18 Iudas i Ionathas k Simon And that these others a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Iason b 2. Mac. 4. v. 24.29 2. Ma. 13. Menelaus c 2. Ma. 4. ver 29.41 Lysimachus g Alcimus were but Antipontifices or false vsurpers against these to wit a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Iason the author of the Apostasie from the Law against his brother Onias and secondly Menelaus against the same a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Onias and thirdly Lysimachus brother to Menelaus After the Apostasie thus begun that liuely Image of Antichrist king d 1. Mac. 1. 2. M. 5. v. 11 Antiochus Epiphanes taketh Ierusalem martyreth the Law-kéepers finally setteth vp in the Temple the abhomination of Desolation being a Statuee of Iupiter Against him his riseth the foresaide e 1. Mac. 2. ver 1.70 Mathathias and after him his sonne f 1. M. 3. v. 1. 1. M. 9. v. 18 Iudas Machabeus who repurged the Temple the same day thrée yeres that it was polluted Anno 148. And the next yere Antiochus dyeth his sonne Antiochus Eupator succéedeth with him striueth for the kingdome g Demetrius Soter An. 151. to whom fled the wicked of Israel and Alcimus their Capteine qui volebat fieri Sacerdos to complayne of Iudas g 1 Mac. 7. ver 1.5.9 1. Mac. 9. ver 54.55 Which Alcimus dyed of Gods hand the next yere after the killing of Iudas i 1. M. 9. ve 31.10 v. 18.13 v. 23. and could neuer get Ierusalem the Temple but alwayes after the repurgation it continued in the gouernmēt of Iudas and of Ionathas after him and then of his other brother k 1. Mac. 13. v. 8.36.41.43 Simon Of whose Priesthood also High priesthood the text is playne in their seuerall places here noted in the margine I wil recite the wordes that are written of the last * 1. Mac. 13. ver 42. The yere 170. the people of Israel began to write in their Court-rolles and Records thus Anno primo sub Simone Summo Sacerdote magno Duce Principe Iudaeorum The first yere vnder Simon the High Priest the great Duke and Prince of the Iewes Certaine other poyntes of your grosse or rather malicious ignorance in the Scrirtures are about Antichrist As that the Church of Christ should prepare his way or worke his mysterie that his Reuelation or comming should be so soone after the beginning of the Church and so long before the consummation of the world that the Churches flying into the wildernes in his time should be to be driuen out of the sight of the wicked and knowledge of the world that his raigne should last so many hundred yeres that he should be a Succession of certayne men and not one only certaine person that the Church should be come againe out of the wildernes and yet Antichrist raigning still These are the very foundations of your new Lutheran and Caluinistical Gospell and yet no ground at all for them or any one of them in the holy Scriptures of God but onely in the weake sande of your owne blasphemons but bold asseuerations in presence of fooles who haue auerted their vnhappie yeres away from trueth and conuerted them vnto your fables Againe that the body of Christ is not offered to him selfe but thanksgiuing is offered to him for the offering of his body for vs. Pur. 316. Why Syr did not he vpon the Crosse offer his owne body as a man and a priest to him selfe as to God You noted others here cap. 4. pag. 28. and cap. 6. pag. 63. as for saying that it is not lawfull to pray to God the Sonne and there S. Fulgentius tolde you as the Fathers Créede doth that ech person of the blessed indiuiduall Trinitie Simul odoratur conglorificatur Is with other at once adored and conglorified no sacrifice neither that of Christes body whether it be vpon the Crosse or vpon the Altar béeing priuate to one but common to all thrée Agayne that you call it a vayne amplification and fond supposition Pur. 155. to extend the force of Christes death beyond the limits of his will As though it were not of force to worke any whit more then it worketh in acte as to saue so muche as one of them that shall not be saued Contrarie to this expresse Scripture He is the propitiation for our sinnes 1. Ioan. 2. and not for our sinnes onely but also for the sinnes of the whole world And contrarie to this saying of your owne in another place Pur. 34. Concerning the sufficiencie of Christes Redemption there is nothing can be spoken so magnifically but that the worthinesse thereof passeth and excelleth it Againe that to remit sinnes is proper vnto his Diuinitie As though he Pur. 26. that is to say our Sauiour Christ doth not remit sins according to his humanitie also No maruell to sée you denie this power to his ministers when you denie it to the Sonne of man him selfe Mat. 9. The people in the Gospell vnderstood him otherwise when your fathers the Scribes called it a blasphemie for any to remit sinnes but onely God and the people contrariwise séeing his mirable that he wrought to proue his and his Churches doctrine herein did glorifie God for giuing such power to men hominibus Whervpon he when the time was come gaue commission to his Apostles Ioan. 20. saying As my Father sent me I also sende you Whose sinnes you forgiue they are forgiuen them Againe that pestilent doctrine of desperation wherein you say a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 There be sinnes for which the Church ought not to pray euen of men remayning in this life a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 for which it is not lawfull to pray a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 which by the mercy of God are not pardonable for a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 it is false that so long as men are in this world they maye
of all the Saintes as you may also sée in the Councell of Trent Another poynt of your great skil is where to supply D. Allens lacke Pur. 12. you bring forsooth the right definition or description of an Heretike and say that an Heretike is a man in the Church c. Wherof what pretie conclusions do folow you may consider as because Papistes be Heretikes with you Ministerlike conclusions of Fulke therefore they be in the Church item Anabaptistes Seruetians c. and of old the Arrians Pelagians c. againe on the contrarie side because these are not nor were not by you in the Church therefore they be not Heretikes It foloweth in your definition That obstinatly mainteineth an opinion contrarie to the doctrine of the Scriptures And then you adde Which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared but condemned for Heretikes We say to you the same of any of vs also But you should haue defined also who is obstinate You bring no Scripture against vs but we answere it clearely much lesse do you proue vs to be obstinate But we bring playne Scriptures against you to proue that also the doctrine of the Apostles Traditions is the doctrine of the Scriptures with very many particular pointes of controuersie expresly against you as namely that neither the Church of Christ should euer flye out of sight much lesse any thing neare the yere 607. nor Antichrist reigne so long as from that time nor the day of Iudgement to be so long after the cōming of Antichrist Againe for the Real presence This is my body and so forth And if you also goe about to answere some of our Scriptures it is no otherwise then the Arrians Pelagians c. did in old time who notwithstanding were obstinate against the truth because they yéelded not neither when the Church had giuen her sentence So do we proue you to be obstinate much more then any because you neither yéeld after sentence and also do hold that the Church hath no such authoritie to end contentions Your ignorance in so wondering at D. Allen for saying that a Christian Scholer should first beléeue and after séeke for vnderstanding I noted before cap. 10. Dem. 34. Of the like ignorance it is where you wonder to heare that the Sacrifice of the Masse is a likenesse of the Sacrifice of Christes death vpon the Crosse and say Pur. 200. that it is contrarie to the whole a See here cap. 10. Dem. 24. scope of the Epistle to the Hebrewes that there should be now any shadowes or resemblances when the body and substance it selfe is come As though we had now no Sacramentes at all Do you not know that all Sacramentes be liknesses of other things as S. Augustine whom your selfe somewhere alleage saith Si enim Sacramenta quandam similitudinem c. Aug. ep 23. Pur. 292. Sup. de 24. For if Sacramentes had not a certayne likenes of those thinges whose Sacramentes they be they should not at al be Sacraments And so you may remember that S. Paule him selfe will haue Baptisme to be a likenes or similitude of Christes death Rom. 6. buriall and resurrection As againe S. Augustine in the foresayd place noteth that it is truely sayed Christum immolari quotidie in Sacramento Christ to be sacrificed euery day in the Sacrament although he were but once sacrificed in seipso in him selfe that is in his owne visible and not sacramentall forme because of the likenes in the Sacrament to that immolation vpon the Crosse For there was visible seperation of his Body and Bloud the one from the other Here is mysticall or sacramentall seperation of the same as the sacramentall wordes doe signifie And therefore this seperation is but like to that if we attende the maner of both and yet it is the very same seperation if we attend the thinges that were and are seperated Which D. Allen vttered very aptly in these few wordes It is the selfe same in another maner Pur. 198.201 Whereunto you say that Euery boye in Oxford can tell him that by Logicke like is not the same An high point D. Allen knew it not How then did he say in another maner Did he not thereby geue you the meaning of that Logicall Principle to wit that like is not the same with the same maner But otherwise what boye hath not heard it sayd of one and the same man being chaunged by age sicknes apparell shauing c. He is like or vnlike him selfe Against so playne a declaration you could not replye and yet you must néedes say something but yet that which neither boy nor man nor your selfe can vnderstand This it is to say It is the selfe same in another maner will not helpe so long as the same respect remaineth Which same respect I pray you for I am not so quicke to vnderstand him who vnderstandeth not him selfe For who can imagine that the very same respect remaineth when the same maner doth not remayne Pur. 20.21 Againe where you attribute that to diuorsement which the Scripture in many places both a Mat. 5. Mar. 10. Luc. 16. ◠Cor. 7. deny to diuorsement and doth b Rom. 7. attribute only to death to wit to make her no wife that was a wife there you vtter your great skill in many matters As in saying that such mariage after diuorsement is dispensed withall by the Pope Item that the Popes Canon Law hath farre many more causes of diuorsement then for adulterie which only Christ alloweth and we Mat. 5. quoth you As though also the Canon Law allow not that onely as a cause of perpetuall diuorse in such sort that if the Adulterer become afterwardes neuer so chast yet the innocent cannot be compelled to receaue him againe But otherwise if the mans furie be such that the wife in his house is in continuall feare daunger of her life doe not you also allow her to dwell away from him vntill such time as his amendment doe appeare sufficiently Item you speake there as though Moyses iudiciall Law ought to be still obserued Leu. 20. We wish that adulterers were punished as God commaunded in his Law it followeth and then the other question of Mariages were soone answered As though the man were punished by death if he sinned against his wife with a single woman If not how then is the question of his wiues Mariage with another resolued by his punishment Such is your skill in the Law I note here your ignorance but I mislike not your moderation in saying we wish Why then doe I charge you with such an opinion of that Law For this that you there charge the Catholikes to allow dispensation for such persons to marrie as the Law of God and nature abhorreth What Law of God doe you meane but Leui. 18 Doe you thinke then that Law to binde Christians and that so straightly as neyther to
this Heretike pretended against the Churche or against any thing of hers I haue answered it all and euery whit omitting nothing to my knowledge and so shall be able with the grace of God and also readie to answere him hereafter also if he harden his heart yet further to make more resistance against the trueth Counselling him rather yea and beséeching him in the bowels of the mercies of Christ to be better to his owne soule and to so innumerable other soules redéemed with the most precious bloud of Christe then to stande any longer against the Church of Christ to the damnation of so many soules specially hauing neither any text of Scripture nor any other authoritie Catholike against the same Churche as I haue here most euidently declared But if he list still without cause to blaspheme the Holy Citie and Tabernacle of God let him knowe Apoc. 13.22.3 and all such as he is that his name will be stricken out of it to his eternall confusion when our names that through the mercie of God be of it shall before all the worlde to our vnspeakable glorie appeare written in it together and in the booke of life of the Lambe and Sonne of God to whom be glorie in the Churche throughout all ages for euer and euer Amen FINIS The Printer to the Reader In two thinges I am to desire thée curteous and friendly Reader to extend thy accustomed gentlenes in perusing and reading of this godly worke One is that thou wilt friendly correct with thy penne these faults and what others els thou shalt therin espie committed in the Printing for although I haue had great care and bene very diligent in the correcting thereof yet because my Compositor was a straunger and ignorant in our Englishe tongue and Orthographi◠some faultes are passed vnamended of me The other that thou wilte not like the worse of this learned worke because it hath not the varietie of letters which is requisite in such a booke and as the Printers in England do customably vse my abilitie was not otherwise to do it and hauing these Characters out of England I could not ioyne them together with any others and so was forst to vse one Character both for the words of Fulke and for all Allegations Remember that when man can not do as he would he must do as he may Iohn Lyon The Errata Cap. 3. Fol. 11. for man reade men Pag. 80. for anima reade omnia Pag. 54. for anima reade anna Pag. 66 for obnaxius reade obnoxius for lanacri lauacri Pag. 190. for milenis reade milleuis Hag. 355. for Ephata reade Epheta for Ephphata Ephpheta ¶ The contentes of this Booke at large ¶ Chapter 1. Fulke confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation ¶ Chapter 2. He confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeares after Christ and the knowen members thereof ¶ Chapter 3. He confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainly with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the true Church may erre also hath erred The first part of this Chapter That the true Church may erre The second part That the true Church did also erre that in the same pointes as we now doe erre in i. Where he chargeth them with many pointes together ii As touching Vigilantius Inuocation of Saintes by it selfe iij. As touching Iouinian of Fasting of Virginities merite of Votaries Mariage iiij As touching Ceremonies v. As touching Purgatorie and praying for the dead 1. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it 2. What he saith of the whole Church in some of those times 3. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles 4. He cōtrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuell and his limmes vj. As touching the Popes primacie ¶ Chapter 4. He chargeth the said Primitiue true Church also with sundrie errors wherewith he neither doth nor will nor can charge vs. ¶ Chapter 5. What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient times had the true Church notwithstanding these their errors ¶ Chapter 6. An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherewith he hath charged the Church of the first 600. yeares afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times His zeale in answering for Caluine and others beeing in deede of his Church The first part of this Chapter Concerning the errors that he layeth cap. 3. part 2. both to the Fathers and to vs. 1. Of Crosse and Images 2. Of Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes 3. Of Abstinence from fleshmeate and from Mariage 4. Of Ceremonies 5. Of Sacrifice And for the dead Purgatorie And Purgatorie fire Prayer for the dead And Oblations for the dead Beeres to carie home the corpses The Second Parte Concerning the errors that he layed cap. 4. to the Fathers not to vs. 1. Touching the Heresies which were in their times 2. Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus 3. Touching Second Mariages And S. Ierome 4. Touching praying to the Sonne and to the Holy ghost 5. Of ministring the B. Sacrament to Infantes The third part Concerning the errors that he layeth to the Church of later time and not of old 1. Touching the bodies of Angels 2. Touching the Popes Superioritie ouer the Councell 3. Touching the Constance Councels presumption 4. Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture ¶ Chapter 7. That he hath no other shift against our manifold Euidēces so cleere they be but the name of Onely Scripture as well about ech cōtrouersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe how timerous he maketh vs how bold he bereth himselfe thervpon The first parte How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidencies in the Controuersies that are betwene vs. 1. Against the Rule to know Heresie by finding the first authors and theire old Heresies By Antiquitie By names 2. Against the Apostles Traditions 3 Against the true Churches Authoritie that is against her practise and her Iudgement Against her Councels Against her Chiefe Pastors Determinations and their whole Succession 4 Against the Fathers both in generall and in particuler The second part Being tolde that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning How there likewise against al expositors he taketh the same exceptiō of only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture The third part What he meaneth by his Only Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sense of Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie and saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevppon