such VVitnesses as are produced in thâ—â— Treatise for proofe of the PROTESTANTS Religion disposed according to the times wherein they flourished Witnesses produced in the first Age from Christs birth to 100 yeares CHRIST IESVS The twelve Apostles Saint Paul and the Churches of the Romanes and others Anno 63. Ioseph of Arimathea who brought Christianitie into Britaine 70. Dionysius Areopagita The Bookes that beare his Name seeme to bee written in the fourth or fifth Age after Christ. 100 Ignatius the Martyr In the second Age from 100 to 200. 150 Iustine Martyr 166 Hegesippus 169. The Church of Smyrna touching the Martyrdome of their Bishop Polycap 170 Melito Bishop of Sardys 177 Pope Eleutherius his Epistle to Lucius the first Christian King of Britaine 180 Polycrates of Ephesus and the Easterne Churches touching the keeping of Easter 180 Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons 200 Clemens Alexandrinus In the third Age from 200 to 300. 201 Tertullian 230 Origen 230 Minutius Felix 250 Cyprian Bishop of Carthage 300 Arnobius 300. Lactantius Anno 291 Amphibalus and his associates martyred in Britaine and Saint Alban ann 303. In the fourth Age from 300 to 400. 310 A Councill at Eliberis in Spaine 317 Constantine the Great 325 The first Generall Councill at Nice against the Arrians 330 Eusebius Bishop of Caesarea 337 Ephraim the Syrian 340 Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria 360 Hilarie Bishop of Poitiers 364 A Councill at Laodicea 370 Macarius the Aegyptian Monke 370 Cyril Bishop of Hierusalem 370 Optatus Bishop of Mela in Africke 370 Ambrose Bishop of Milain 370 Basil the Great Bishop of Caesarea 370 Gregorie Nazianzen 380 Gregory Nyssen Bishop of Nyssa in Cappadocia brother to Basil. 381 The second generall Councill at Constantinople where Macedonius was condemned 390 Epiphanius Bish. of Salamine in Cyprus In the fifth age from 400 to 500. 406 S. Chrysostome Bish. of Constantinople Andr. Rivet Critici sacri 415 S. Hierome idem 420 S. Augustinus 429 Palladius sent by Pope Celestine into Scotland and Germanus by the French Bishops into Britain to beat downe Pelagianisme 430 Vincentius Lirinensis wrote against the Pelagians and Nestorians 430 Cyril Bishop of Alexandria 430 Theodoret the Historian Bish. of Cyrene 431 The third generall Councill at Ephesus where Nestorius was condemned deprived 450 Leo the Great 451 The fourth generall Councill at Chalcedon where Dioscurus Eutyches were condeÌ„ned 490 Gelasius the Pope In the sixth age from 500 to 600. 520 Cassiodore Abbot of Ravenna 520 Fulgentius Bishop of Ruspa in Africke 529 A Councill at Aurange against Semi-Pelagians and Massilians 540 Iustus Orgelitanus claruit ann 540. Trithem de Scriptor Ecclesiast 545 Iunilius Episcopus Africanus 545 Primasius a Bishop of Africke Bellar. de Scriptor Ecclesiast 540 Rhemigius Bish. of Rhemes Andr. Rivet 553 The fifth generall Councili at Constantinople to confirme the Nicen Councill 560 Dracontius 580 Venantius Fortunatus Bish. of Poictiers a Poet and Historian 596 Augustine the Monke Mellitus and Laurence sent into Britaine by Pope Gregorie 596 The Britaines Faith 600 Columbanus or Saint Colme of Ireland In the seventh age from 600 to 700. 601 Greg. the First the Great placed by Bellar. in this seventh age Bell. de Script Eccles. 601 Hesych Bish. of Hierusalem Bellar. ibid. 630 â—sidore Bishop of Sevill Disciple to Gregorie the Great 635 Aidanus Bishop of Lindasferne or Holy Iland and Finanus his Successour 681 The sixth Generall Councill at Constantinople against the Monothelites who held that although Christ had two Natures yet hee had but one will In the eighth Age from 700 to 800. 720 Venerable Bede the Saxon. 740 Ioannes Damascenus 740 Antonius Author Melissae 754 A Council held at Constant. wherein were condemned Images and the worshipers of themâ— 768 Clement B. of Auxerre Disciple to Bede 787 The second Councill at Nice about restoring of Images 790 Alcuinus or Albinus an Englishman Disciple to Bede and Tutor to Charlemaigne this Alcuinus laid the foundation of the Vniversitie of Paris 794 A Councill at Frankford wherein was condemned the second Councill of Nice for approoving the worshipping of Images 800 Carolus Magnus and Libri Carolini In the ninth Age from 800 to 900. 815 Claudius Scotus 820 Claudius Taurinensis against Image-worship 824 A Councill at Paris about Images 830 Christianus Druthmarus the Monke of Corbey 830 Agobard Bishop of Lyons 840 Rabanus Maurus Bishop of Mentz Disciple to Alâ—win 840 Haymo Bishop of Halberstadt Cousin to Bede 840 Walafridus Strabus Abbot of Fulda Disciple to Rabanus hee collected the Ordinarie Glosse on the Bible Trithem de script Eccles. 861 Hulderick Bishop of Auspurge 862 Iohn Mallerosse the Scottish Divine or Ioannes Scotus Erigena hee was slaine by the Monkes of Malmsbury 860 Photius Patriarke of Constantinople he wrote the Nomo-Canon 876 Bertram a Monke and Priest of France 890 Rhemigius Monke of Auxerre hee wrote upon Saint Mathew 890 Ambrosius Ansbertus the French Monke In the tenth Age from 900 to 1000. 910 Radulphus Flaviacensis Monachus Bellarm quò suprà 950 Stephanus Eduensis Monachus Idem 950 Smaragdus the Abbot 975 Abbot Aelfrick and his Saxon Homily and his Saxon Treatise of the Old and New Testament both translated into English In the eleventh age from 1000 to 1100. 1007 Fulbert Bishop of Chartres 1050 Oecumenius 1050 Berengarius 1060 Radulphus Ardens 1070 Theophylact Archbish. of the Bulgarians 1080 Anselme Archbishop of Canterbury 1090 Hildebert Archbishop of Tours 1100 Anselmus Laudunensis Collector of the Interlinear Glosse In the twelfth age from 1100 to 1200. 1101 Zacharias Chrysopolitanus 1120 Rupertus Tuitiensis 1130 Hugo de Sancto Victore 1130 Bernardus Clarae-vallensis 1130 Peter Bruis and Henry of Tholouse 1140 Peter Lombard Master of the Sentences 1150 Petrus Cluniacensis 1158 Ioannes Sarisburiensis 1160 Petrus Blesensis Archdeacon of Bathe 1170 Gratianus 1170 Hildegard the Prophetesse Trithem 1195 Ioachimus Abbas 1200 Nicetas Choniates In the thirteenth Age from 1200 to 1300. 1206 Gul. Altissiodorensis 1215 Concil Lateranense Cuthb Tonstal Dunelm Episcop de eodem 1220 Honorius Augustodunensis Bellarm. 1230 Gulielmus Alvernus Parisiensis Episcopus 1230 Petrus de Vineis Trithem 1240 Alexander de Hales 1250 Gerardus and Dulcinus 1250 Hugo Cardinalis 1250 Robert Groute-head or Grosse-teste Bishop of Lincolne 1256 Gulielmus de Sancto Amore. 1260 Thomas Aquinas 1260 Bonaventura 1260 Arnoldus de Novâ villâ 1300 Ioannes Duns Scotus In the fourteenth age from 1300 to 1400. 1303 Barlaam the Monke and Nilus Archbishop of Thessalonica 1320 Gulielmus Ockam 1320 Nicol. de Lyra a converted Iew who commented on all the Bible 1320 Marsilius Patavinus 1320 Michael Cesena Trithem 1320 Dante 's 1320 Durandus de S. Portiano 1330 Alvarus Pelagius 1340 Iohannes de Rupe-scissâ Trithem 1340 Thomas Bradwardin 1343 The Kings of England oppose Papall Provisions and Appeales Anno 1391. 1350 Richardus Armachanus 1350 Robert Holcot the Englishman 1350 Francis Petrarch Bellarm. 1350 Taulerus a Preacher at Strasbrough Bellarm. 1370 Saint Bridgeâ— 1370 Iohn Wickliffe and
eternall power and Godhead was manifested unto them by the creation of the World and the contemplation of the creatures hee addeth presently that God was sorely displeased with them and therefore gave them up unto vile affections because They changed the Glory of that incorruptible God into an Image made like unto corruptible men and to birds and foure-footed beasts and creeping things whereby it is evident that the Idolatry condemned in the wisest Heathen was the adoring of the invisible God whom they acknowledged to be the Creatour of all things in visible Images fashioned to the similitude of men and beast as the admirably learned Bishop Vsher hath observed in his Sermon preached before the Commons House of Parliament in Saint Margarets Church at Westminster Of Prayer to Saints There wanted not some who even in the Apostles daies under the pretence of Humilitie labored to bring into the Church the worshipping of Angels which carried with it a shew of Wisdome as Saint Paul speakes of it not much unlike that of the Papists who teach their simple people upon pretence of Humilitie and their owne unworthinesse to prepare the way to the Sonne by the servants the Saints and Angels this they counselled saith Theodoret should be done using humility and saying that the God of all was invisible and inaccessible and that it was fit men should get Gods favour by the meanes of Angels And the same Theodoret saith that they had 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Oratories or Chappels of Saint Michael Now the Councel of Laodicea to meete with this errour solemnly decreed that Christians ought not to forsake the Church of God and goe and invocate Angels and pronounced an Anathema against any that should be found to doe so because say they He hath forsaken our Lord Iesus Christ the Sonne of God and given himselfe to Idolatry And Theodoret mentions the Canon of this Councel and declares the meaning of it in these words Whatsoever ye doe in word or deed doe all in the name of the Lord Iesus giving thanks to God and the Father by him The Synod of Laodicea also following this Rule and desiring to heale that old disease made a Law that they should not pray unto Angels nor forsake our Lord Iesus Christ now there is the same reason of Saints that there is of the Angels PA. Iesuit Fisher in his Rejoynder to Doctor Whites Reply the second and third point saith The Councel and Theodoret are thus to be understood that Angels are not to be honoured as Gods PRO. How appeareth it that Christians were so rude in those Ages as to imagine that Angels were Gods or that sacrifices after the Pagan manner were due to them It appeareth by Theodoret that those whom he condemneth did not thinke the Angels to be Gods but that they served them as ministring Spirits whose service God had used for the publishing of the Law PA. Bellarmine saith The Councel forbad all worship of Angels called Latreia as being proper unto God but Binnius liketh Baronius exposition better who saith The Councel onely forbad the religious worship of false and heatheâ—â—sh Gods PRO. Bellarmine doth wrong in restraining the Councels speech to a speciall kind of worship for Theodoret saith generally that the Councell forbad the worship of Angels Neither did the Councell meane thereby to forbid the religious worship of false and heathenish Gods for Theodoret mentioneth the Oratories of Saint Michael and of such Angels as were supposed to give the Law and therefore were not ill Angels Baronius perceiving that the place in Theodoret toucheth the Papists to the quicke telleth us plainely That Theodoret by his leave did not well understand the meaning of Pauls words and that those Oratories of Saint Michael were anciently erected by Catholikes as if Baronius a man of yesterday at Rome could tell better what was long since done in Asia than Theodoret a Greeke Father and an ancient Father and Bishop living above twelve hundred yeares agoe not farre from those parts where these things were done Others to avoid the force of the canon have corrupted the Councell making this reading That men should not leave the Church to pray in angles or corners turning Angelos into Angulos Angels into Angles or corners but Veritas non quaerit angulos the truth will admit none of these corners neither hath the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any affinitie at all with corners To proceed the Fathers of this age affirme that religious prayer is a proper worship belonging to the sacred Trinitie and by this argument Rom. 10 14â— conclude against the Arrians and Macedonians that Christ Iesus and the Holy Ghost are truely God because Christians believe in them pray unto them they accept their petitions Athanasius saith No man would â—ver pray to receive any thing from the Father and from the Angels or from any of the other creatures Gregory Nyssen saith Wee are taught to worship and adore that nature onely which is uncreated and accordingly Antonius in his Melissa hath set downe the foresaid sentence but the Spanish Inquisitors have commanded that the word Onely should bee blotted out of his writings Now the word Onely is the onely principall word whereupon the whole sentence dependeth In like sort where Athanasius saith that God onely is to bee worshipped that the Creature is not to adore the creature that neither men nor Angels are to be worshipped The popish Index as is already observed in the Preface to this Treatise hath razed these sayings out of his Index or table which yet remaine in the text Epiphanius tels us of some superstitious women that were wont to offer up a Cake to the blessed Virgin and this vanitie hee calleth the womans Heresie because that sexe mostly vsed it but hee reproves them saying Let Mary bee in honour but let the Father and the Sonne and the Holy Ghost bee worshipped let no man worship or adore Mary and indeed hee bends all his force against that point of adoring no lesse then in sixe severall places saying Mariam nemo adoret Now Adoration being condemned it can not bee conceived that adoring her and offering to her they prayed not also to her and required of her somewhat againe All which Epiphanius reprooves Saint Ambrose speaking of our Advocate or Master of Requests saying What is so proper to Christ as to stand by God the Father for an Advocate of the people and elsewhere hee saith Tu solus Domine invocandus es thou Lord onely art to bee invocated and whereas there were some that about this time sued unto Saints and Angels saying Wee have recourse to Angels and Saints with devotion and humilitie that by their Intercâ—ssion God may bee more favourable unto us Saint Ambrose or who evâ—r else was author of those Commentaries upon Saint Pauls Epistles that are framed among his workes
Pulpit before the weaker the truth whereof he is not able to justifie in the Schooles before the best learned Neither weâ—e they whom Chrysostome taxed so very lazâ—e but rather such as tooke more paines than needed and as hee saith went a long way about by seâ—king to their patrons mediatours and favourites whereas hee shewes them a neerer may to wit to goe immediately to the Master of Requests Christ Iesus Objection You have produced diverse Fathers against Saintly invocation and much pressed Saint Chrysostome's testimony whereas hee makes for us for Chrysostâ—me saith that the Emperour laying aside all princely state stood humbly praying unto the Saints to bee intercessours for him unto God Answer Bellarmine indeed alleadgeth Chrysostome's sixty sixt Homily Antiochenumâ— and yet the same Bellarmine upon better advise when he is out of the heat of his polemick controversies comes to a pacifick Treatise of the Writings of the Fathers then hee tells us that Chrysostome made but one and twenty Homilies to the people of Antioch and that no more are to bee found in the ancient Libraries And yet posito sed non concesso admit that these words were Châ—ysostome's indeed yet they reach not home for they speake onely what the Emperour did factoâ— not dâ— jure it is onely a relation what hee did out of his private devotion it is no approbation of the thing done Now what some one or two shall doe carryed away with their owne devout affection is not straight way a rule of the Church Besides though the Saints interceded for us yet it will not hence follow that wee are to invocate them having no warrant from God so to doe now in such a high poynt of his worship wee must keepe us to his command and that must guide ouâ— devotiâ—n The other places of Chrysoâ—tome alleadged by Bâ—llarmine speake of the Saints living and not of the Saints deceased Lastly Chrysostome as hath beene observed in the poynt of the Eâ—chaâ—ist speakâ—s oftentimes rather out of his rhetorickâ— than out of his divinity Sixtus Senensis delivereth this observation concerning the Fathers and hee names Chrysostome That in their sermons we may not take their words strictâ—y and in rigour because they many times breake out into declamations and declare and repeat matters by Hyperboles and other figurative speeches In a word whatsoever Chrysostome report of others himselfe as wee have heard was all for our immediate addresse of our Prayers unto God Objection Bellarmine saith that Theodoret shutteth up the story of the Fatherâ— lives in these termes My suit and request is that by the Prayers and intercession of the Saints I may finde divine assistance And the same Bellarmine saith that Theodoret in his booke of the Greekes hath much touching Prayer to Saints Answer Theodoret saith onely Rogo quaeso I beseech and intreat not thâ—s nor that Saâ—nt but God alone to this end and purpâ—se that by their intercession and prayers I may have assiâ—â—ance Now to the booke de curandis Graecorum affectibus questioned whether iâ— be Theodoret's or no wee oppose that which is Theodoret's out of question upon the second and third Chapters to the Colossians where hee expâ—essely sayes and that by the auâ—hority of the Councell of Laodicea Angels are not to be prayed to and if not Angels then not Saints and Maâ—tyrs Objection Saint Austine sayth It is injurie to pray for a Martyr by whose prayers we on the other side ought to be recommended Answer This place is not to the puâ—pose for he sayth onely that the Saints pray for us which thing we have never denyed We doe out of Godly consideâ—ations presume that albeit they know not the necessity of particular men yet they pray for the Church in generall But that wee should for this cause invocate them or yield them any religious service S. Austine doth not avouch The other testimonies alleadged by Bellaâ—mine out of Saint Austine are all for Martyrs and not for Saints now in Saint Austâ—nes opinion the Martyrs had an espâ—ciall priviledge above other Saints Bâ—sides they might well have spared the alleadging of Saint Austine Theodoret Chrysostome Prudentius Saint Ambrose Origen Irenaeus and otheâ—s in proofe of Saiâ—tly invocation inaâ—much as these with divers others are by their great Author Sixtus Senensis reckoned up amongst them that held the Saints departed did not injoy the presence of God â—ill after thâ— generall Resurrection which if they hâ—ld that they did not then would they not hold that they were to bee prayed to they being secluded from Gods presence being onely in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Some certaine Receptacles or Wards attending in the porch or base Court abroad not admâ—tted to the presence of the Almighty and so not seeingâ— hearing nor knowing whether prayer were made to them at all or no being but as yet in Atrijs as Bernard would have it For in such Retiring or drawing roomes they placed the soules of all the faithfull except those of the Martyrs Objection Maximus Taurinensis in his Sermon upon Saint Agnes sayth By all such Prayers and Orizons as I can conceive I beseech theâ— vouchsafe to remember me Answer Theâ—e Sermons of Maximus as great as he was in name they are not greatly to be esteemed inasmuch as they goe with an Aliâs sometimes under one name sometimes under another having indeâ—d no certaine knowne Father so that they are not to goe for Maximes in divinity or rules of Faith But suppose they be his owne words they are but a Rhetoricall flourish which he used in his commendatorie Panegyricall Sermon upon Saint Agnes her Anniversarie and he speakes but faintly Quibus possumus precibus in effect as I can so I direct this my addresse unto thee heare and helpe me accordingly as thou canst and maist so the man in the point was not so fully perswaded of that or any Saints assistance as that hee went farther than opinion Objection Victor Bishop of Vtica when the Church was pestered with the barbarous Vandals calleth to the Angels Prophets Patriarks and Apostles to Deprecate and Pray for the distressed Church Answer Victor Bishop of Vtica is an Historian and such are Narratores relaters of other mens Acts not Expositores of their owne opinions narrations have no more weight or worth then have those Authors from whence they proceed But Vicâ—or in this place laying aside the person of an Historian takes up the carriage of a Panegyrist meerely as appeares by his expostulating with Saint Peter and chiding him which was not really and indeed but onely Rhetorically and Figuratively saying Why art thou Blessed Saint Peter silent Why dost not thou above all the rest take care of the Sheepe and Lambes committed unto thee Now if this were a straine of Rhetoricke why also is not that his compellation of the Saints Triumphant to assist the Church Millitant and then distressed Object
Councel to be celebrated in Italy But their request was denied it was held at Chalcedon for the ease of the Bishops of Asia Leo could not have it where hee would but where and when the Emperour appointed and Leo was glad to send his deputies thither Reply The Emperours summoned Councels but by the Popes consent Answer It is true indeed that the Popes consent was to these aâ—cient Councells but no otherwise than as the consent of other chiefe Bishops they consented because they could not chuse because they resolved to bee obedient but they could not appoynt either place or time To proceed This famous Councell of Chalcedon renewed and ratifyed the Canon of the second General Councell held at Constantinopleâ— and accordingly following their example gave the Bishop of Constantinople equall priviledges with the Bishop of Rome The tenour of their decree runneth thus Our fathers have very rightly given the preheminence to the See of ancient Rome because the City was the seate of the Empire and wee moved with the same reasons have transferred the same preheminence to the sâ—at of New Rome that is to say Constantinople thinking it reason that the City honoured with the Empire and with the presence of the Senate and injoying the same priviledges as Ancient Rome being the seat of the Empire did and being after it the next should in matters Ecclesiasticall have equall advancement Here wee see the reason which the Councell gives why Rome had the first place was not because it was so ordained by Gods law jure divino or in Saint Peters right but by the cosent and constitutions of men because Rome was sometime the imperiall seat and the seat being thence translated to Constantinople upon the same reason Constantinople was made equall with Rome Reply The Popes Legats protested against this Caâ—on you alleadge Answer It is a rule in law That is accounted the act of all which is publikely done by the greater part by the most voyces otherwise there would bee no judgement given because some perverse ones would still dissent Now all the Councell save onely the Popes Legates consented upon the Canon and they were to be ruled by â—he major part of the Councells votes neither doe we finde that anciently the Pope had a negative or casting voyce in Councels and therefore the Chalcedon Councell notwithstanding the Legates opposition professeth Haeâ— omnes dicimus this is all our vote and Tota Synodus the whole Councell hath confirmed this Canon for the honour of the Sâ—â— of Constantinople And accordingly the whole Councell wrote to Pope Leo. Why buâ— the Popes Legatâ—s approoved it not they contradicted it True in this particular they dissented But because they as al other B ps even Pope Leo himselfe consented unâ—o that generall Maxime That the judgement of the greater part shall stand for the judgement of the whole Councellâ— in that generall both the Legates of Leo and Leo himselfe did implicitè and virtually consent to that very Canon from which actually and explicitè they did then dissent For which cause the most prudent Iudges truely said Tota Synodus the whoâ—e Councell hath approved this Canon either explicitè or implicitè either expressely or virtually approved it Yea the whole Councell professed the same and that even in the Synodall relation of their Acts to Pope Leo saying Wee have confirmed the Canon of the second Councell for the honour of the See of Constantinople declaring evidently that Act of approving that Canon to be the Act of the whole Synod although they knew the Pope and his Legates contradicted it as my learned kinsman Doctor Crakanthorpe hath well observed In a word what though the Popes Legates were absent at the making of this Act because they would not bee present and when they were present disclaimed it the major part of the Synodall voyces carryed it and so the Decree passed and was afterwards confirmed by the sixth Generall Councell Reply The Canon which equalleth the Patriarke of Constantinople to the Bishop of Rome makes not against us since it was not confirmed by the Pope who onely confirmed such Canons as concerned matters of Faith Now Councells are not of force till the Pope ratifie them Answer By this reason you will make the Popes supremacie no Article of Faith And what though Leo opposed the Canon yet as Cardinall Cusanus saith Vse and custome carryed it against the Pope Besides a Councel may be approved though the Pope approve it not and so was the second generall Councel called against the Macedonian Heretikes and others it was held by the Catholike Church a lawfull generall Councel though none of the Popes before Gregories time approved it for Gregorie speaking of the Canons of that Councel sayth Eosdem Canones vel gesta Synodi illius hactenus non habet nec accipit the Romane Church neither hath nor approveth those Canons or Acts so that the Romane Church untill Gregories time neither approved the Canons nor Acts of that second generall Councel And that is it which Gregory intendeth saying hastenus non habet nec accipit not meaning that till the yeare wherein he writ that Episâ—le for himselfe before professed to embrace that sâ—cond Councel aâ— one of the foure Evangelists but untill Gregories time hactenus untill this age wherein I live wâ—s the second Councel the Canons or Acts thereof not haâ— nor approved by the Romane Chuâ—ch and yet all this time it was held an approved Synod as the same D. Crakanthorpe hath observed Question Had not the Bishop of Rome the priority Answer He haâ— a priority of Order Honour or Place before others but not of Iurisdiction over and above others but even as Ambassadors take place one of another yet have no dominion one over another Question Was not Rome highly esteemed of old Answer Old Rome was highly esteemed First because theâ—e the Apostles taught and Rome professed the true Faith and divers of her Bishops were Martyrs Secondly because Rome was sometime the chiefe seat of the Empire and so the chiefe City had a chiefe Bishop Thirdly because the Easterne or Greeke Church was often at odds the dissention theâ—efore such as were distressed had their recouâ—se for Councel and helpe to the Patriarke of the West the Bishop of Rome anâ— this made him much râ—spected and her bishops withâ—ll being Godly men and in good favour with the Empeâ—ouâ—s they ofâ—en times â—elieved such as were distressed thus Iulâ—us bishop of Rome helped the banished Athanasius for these and the like respects the Fathers spâ—ke reveâ—ently of Rome as she was in diebus illis in their time But what is this to Rome in her corrupâ— esâ—ate whilâ—s the Pope challengeth to himselfe infalibility of judgement and not content with the primacie which his auncestors held this Romane Dioâ—rephes seâ—kes preheminence affecting not only an Hierarchie in the Church but a Monarchy over the whole
knowledge of Letters and study of Tongues specially the Greeke Latin began to spread abâ—â—ad thorow divers parts of the West Of this number were Emanuel Chrysoloras of Constantinople Theodorus Gaza of Thessalonica Georgius Trapezuntius Cardinall Bessarion and others in like sort also afterwards Iohn Capâ—io brought the use of the Greeke and Hebrew tongues into Germany as Faber Stapulensis observeth And in the beginning of this age Hebrew was first taught in Oxford as our accurat Chronologer Mr. Isaacson hath observed Now also lived Nicholas de Lyra a converted Iew who commented on all the Bible In this age there were divers both of the Greeke and Latin Church who stood for Regall Iurisdiction against Papall usurpation and namely Barlaam the Monke Nilus Archbishop of Thessalonica Marsilius Patavinus Michael Cesenas Generall of the gray Friers Dante the Italian Poet and William Ockam the English man sometime fellow of Merton Colledge in Oxford surnamed the Invincible Doctor and Scholler to Scotus the subtile Doctor Now also lived Durand de S. Porciano Nilus alleadgeth divers passages out of the generall Councels against the Popes supremacy and thence inferreth as followeth That Rome can not challenge preheminence over other Seas because Rome is named in order before them for by the same reason Constantinople should have the preheminence over Alexandria which yet she hath not From the severall and distinct boundaries of the Patriarchall Seas he argueth that neither is Rome set over other Seas nor others subject to Rome That whereas Rome stands upon the priviledge that other places appeale to Rome he saith That so others appeale to Constantinople which yet hath not thereby Iurisdiction over other places That whereas it is said the Bishop of Rome judgeth others and himselfe is not judged of any other he saith That St. Peter whose successour he pretends himselfe to be suffred himselfe to be reproved by S. Paul and yet the Pope tyrant-like will not have any enquire after his doings Barlaam prooveth out of the Chalcedon Councell Canon 28. That the Pope had not any primacy over other Bishops from Christ or S. Peter but many ages after the Apostles by the gift of holy Fathers and Emperours if the Bishop of Rome sayth hee had anciently the supremacy and that S. Peter had appointed him to be the Pastour of the whole Church what needed those godly Emperours decree the same as a thing within the verge of their owne power and jurisdiction Marsilius Patavinus wrote a booke called Defensor Pacis on the behalfe of Lewis Duke of Baviere and Emperour against the Pope for challenging power to invest and depose Kings Hee held that Christ hath excluded and purposed to exclude himselfe and his Apostles from principality or contentious jurisdiction or regiment or any coactive judgement in this world His other Tenets are reported to be these 1 That the Pope is not superiour to other Bishops much lesse to the Emperour 2. That things are to be decided by Scripture 3. That learned men of the Laiety are to have voyces in Councels 4. That the Cleargy and the Pope himselfe are to be subject to Magistrates 5. That the Church is the whole coÌ„pany of the faithfull 6. That Christ is the Head of the Church and appointâ—d none to be his Vicar 7. That Priests may marry 8. That St. Peter was never at Rome 9. That the popish â—ynagogue is a denne of theeves 10. That the Popes doctrine is not to be followed With this Marsilius of Pâ—dua there joyned in opinioÌ„ Iohn of Gandune and they both held that Clerkes are and should be subject to secular powers both in payment of Tribute and in iudgâ—ments specially not Ecclesiasticall so that they stood against the Exemption of Clerkes Michael Cesenas Generall of the Order of Franciscans stood up in the same quarrell and was therefore deprived of his dignities by Pope Iohn the two and twentieth from whom he appealed to the Catholicke universâ—ll Church and to the next generall Councell About this time also lived the noble Florentine Poet Dante a learned Philosopher and Divine who wrote a booke against the Pope concerning the Monarchy of the Emperour but for taking part with him the Pope banished him But of all the rest our Countrey-man Ockam stucke close to the Emperour to whom he sayd that if he would defend him with the sword he againe would defend him with the Word Ockam argueth the case and inclineth to this opinion that in temporall matters the Pope ought to be subject to the Emperour in as much as Christ himselfe as he was man professeth that Pilate had power to judge him given of God as also that neither Peter nor any of the Apostles had temporall power given them by Christ and hereof he gives testimony from Bernard and Gregory Ockams writings were so displeasing to the Pope as that he excommunicated him for his labour and caused his treatise or worke of ninety dayes as also his Dialogues to be put into the blacke bill of bookes prohibited and forbidden It is true indeed that Ockam submitted his writings to the censure and judgement of the Church but as hee saith to the judgement of the Church Catholike not of the Church malignant The same Ockam spoke excellently in the point of generall Councels Hee held that Councels are not called generall because they are congregated by the authority of the Romane Pope and that if Princes and Lay-men please they may be present have to deale with matters treated in general Councels That a generall Councell or that congregation which is commonly reputed a generall Councell by the world may erre in matters of faith and in case such a generall Councell should erre yet God would not leave his Church destitute of all meanes of saving truth but would raise up spirituall children to Abraham out of the rubbish of the Laiety despised Christians and dispersed Catholikes Wee have heard the judgement of the learned abroad touching Iurisdiction Regall and Papall let us now see the practice of our owne Church and State In the Reigne of King Edward the third sundry expresse Statutes were made that if any procured any Provisions from Rome of any Abbeyes Priories or Benefices in England in destruction of the Realme and holy Religion if any man sued any Processe out of the Court of Rome or procured any personall Citation from Rome upon causes whose cognisance and finall discussion pertained to the Kings Court that they should be put out of the Kings protection and their lands goods and chattels forfeited to the King In the Reigne of King Richard the second it was enacted That no Appeale should thenceforth be made to the Sea of Rome upon the penalty of a Praemunire which extended to perpetuall banishment and losse of all their lands and goods the words of the statute are If any purchase or pursue
Austin saith He hath set his Tabernacle in the Sun Is not the Church then conspicuous as the Sunne PROT. You may not argue from such Allusions as are taken from the outward pompe of the world thereby to describe the inward beautie of the Church 2. Besides according to the true reading the meaâ—ing is he hath set up a seat for the Sunne in the heavens that there it might be viewed as on a scaffold now this Sunne may be eclypsed 3. Againe this was onely an Allusion which Saint Austin used against the Donatists who pinned up the Church within a corner of Afriâ—k as now the Papists confine her to Rome thereby telling them there were many Churches besides theirs to bee seene as cleare as the Sunne if the Donatists could discerne them 4. Lastly though Austin termed the Church in diebus illis in his owne time to be set as it were in the Sun yet he denies not but that afterwards in declining ages this Sunne might bee darkened and the Church make but small appearance in the time of persecution as the same Father speakes PA. The Church is as a Citie upon an hill a light upon a Candlesâ—icke and therefore conspicuous PRO. 1. This also is an Allusion which yet Saint Chrisostome understands to be meant of the Apostles that they were to looke to their carâ—iage since they were to preach abroad and had many lookeâ—s on 2. Againe though the Church be set on a hill yet as the Aramites could not discerne â—he citie of Samaria whither the Prophet led them till their eyes were opened 2 Kings chap. 6. no more can one discerne or difference the true Church from the malignant and conventicles of the wicked untill his minde be enlightned And thus Austin tolde the Donatists they could not see the Church on the hill because their eyes were blinded to wit either with ignorance or malice In a word this Hill may bee hid with a mist this Sunne obscured with a cloud and the Moone ecclipsed The blessed Apostles were no corner-creepers yet were they not seene and acknowledged for true profâ—ssors by the Scribes and Pharisees that dwelt but hard by in Iewrie Howsoever what is this to Rome if shee hold the socket and want the light if she be seated on a hill yea seven hills like Babylon PA. Will you call Rome Babylon PRO. Your owne Iesuites call Rome Babylon neither can this bee meant of Heathen Rome but of Rome Christian and as it shall bee at the end of the world for so speakes Ribâ—ra and Viegas saith After that Rome shall fall from the faith Now Heathen Rome could not fall from the faith since it never professed the faith therefore the prophecie is to bee fulfilled in Rome Papall and Christian. PA. If thy brother offend thee tell the Church then must we needs know the Church PRO. 1. Wee are bid tell the Church that is her Pastors and Governours when there is such a standing Ministery and publike discipline exercised 2. But in case Tyrants hinder the open meetings of Christians even then also in some good sort though shee bee not so outwardly visible to her foes yet may the Church take notice as the faithfull in the primative Church met together privately and observed orders for reforming of abuses being knowne one to another as friends but unknowne as such to their foes In a word one may tell the Church though for the time shee bee hid from her foes even as one may tell a message to his friend who for the time is hid from his enemie PA. Some of yours say The Church was invisible for divers ages PRO. They say not it was simply invisible but they speake respectively so that looking on those times which fell out somewhat before and after the first sixe hundred yeeres and seeing the title of Vniversall Bishop which Gregoâ—y detested as Antichristian setled on the Pope about the yeere 666 and that this number so fitly agreed to the Man of sinne as also looking downeward to the thousand yeere wherein Satan was loosed and the Turke and Pope grew great looking hereon and comparing the Church as shee was then under Hildebrand forbidding Marriage and deposing the Emperour with her selfe in the primitive ages they said shee was in manner invisible in the Westerne Horizon to wit in respect of that degree and measure of the light of the Gospell that brake forth in the time of the Reformation Besides during the time mentioned it was visible enough in the Greeke and Easterne Church and for the Westerne it had the same subsisting and beeing with the best members in the Romane Church PA. Master Napier saith Our Religion hath raigned universally and without any debatable contradiction 1260 yeeres Gods true Church most certainely abiding so long latent and invisible And Master Peâ—kins saith That for the space of many hundred yeeres an universall Apostasie overspread the whole face of the earth and that your Church was not visible to the world PRO. Master Napier saith not that your Religion raigned so universally neither doth hee speake in generall of the whole body of the Romish Faith and of the universall Antiquitie thereof which is the poynt in question but onely of the first originall of the papall dominion and Antichristian kingdome as hee calleth it as Bishop Morton hath well observed neither yet was this papall Hierarchie or as Master Perkins calls it popish Heresie of being intituled Vniversall Bishop of the Church carried without the opposition of severall Councells and Worthies in Gods Church as God willing hereafter shall appeare For the place cited out of Master Perkins it is as we in our common phrase of speech use to say That all the world is set on mischiefe because so many delight in wickednesse Neither is this manner of speech unusuall in the Scriptures From the Prophet to the Priest all deale falsely saith Ieâ—emy 6.13 and Saint Paul saith All secke their owne and not that which is Iesus Christs Phil. 2.21 bâ—sides hee saith Iâ— had overspread the face of the earth Now a large fiâ—ld may be over-spread with Tares and weedes and yet some good corne in the field Neither saith Master Perkins that our Church was simply invisible but that it was not visible to the world and withall he tels us where it was It lay hid saith he vnder the chasse of Poperie Now the graine is not utâ—erly invisible whiles it is mingled with chaâ—se in the same heape PA. Was not the Church ever gloriously visible PRO. It was not for as S. Austin saith it was sometimes onely in Abel and he was slaine by his brother in Enoch and hee was translated from the ungodly it was in the sole house of Abraham Noah and Lot Afterwards how was it so notably conspicuous when as both Israel and Iudah fell to Idolatry in the times of Achaz and Manasse
when as those Kings caused the Temple to be shut up the Sacrifice to cease and erected Idols in every Towne Besides at our Saviours comming we find but a short Catalogue of true professors mentioned to wit Ioseph and Mary Zacharie and Elizabeth Simeon and Anna the Shepherds in the fields and some others When Christ suffered death his little flocke as hee called it was scattered his disciple â—led and none almost durst shew themselves save Mary and Iohn and some few women with oâ—hers After our Saviours death the Apostles and their followers were glad to meet in Chambers whiles the Priests Scribes and Pharisees bare all the sway in the Temple â—o that as the Treatise of the true Câ—urchâ—s visibilitie haâ—h it if a weâ—ke body had then enquired for the Church it is likely they had beene directed to them In â—he time of those Ten persecutions there could not be any knowne assembly of Christians but foorthwith â—he Tyranâ—s labouâ—ed to root them out but as Tâ—rtullian saith The blood of the Martyrs was the seed of the Church they were peâ—secuted and yet they increased Afâ—erwards when the Arrian Heresie overspread all so that all the world was against Athanasius and he and some few Confesâ—ors stood for the Nicen Faith insomuch as Hierome said The world sighed and groaned marveiling at it selfe how it was become Arrian what a slender appearance did the true professors then make and yet in such dangerous and revolting times even small assemblies of particular congregations wheresoever dispersed serve to make up the universal Church Militant so that the Reader is not to be discouraged if hee find not the Protestant Assemblies so thronged since it was not so with the primative Church and S. Iohn foretold That the woman that is the Church persecuted by the Dragon that old Serpent the Devill and his instruments should flie into the Wildernesse where the Lord promised to hide her till the tempest of persecution were over-blowne wherein God dealt graciously with his Church for had her enemies alwayes seene and knowne her professors they would like cruell beastes have laboured to devoure the damme with her young the mother with her children Now whereas the Papists brag of their Churches Visibilitie their owne Rhemists are driven to confesse that in the raigne of Antichrist the outward state of the Romane Chuâ—ch and the publike entercourse of the faithfull with the same may cease and practise their Religion in secret And Iesuite Suarez thinkes it probable That the Pope shall professe his faith in secret Where is then your Tabernacle in the Sunne your light in the Candlesticke when as your Church and Pope shall walke with a darke Lanterne and say Masse in a corner PA. Why was not the Church alwayes so conspicuous PRO. Because sometimes her best members as Athanasius Hilarie Ambrose and others were persecuted as Heretikes and ungodly men and that by learned persons and such as were powerfull in the world able to draw great troupes after them of such as for hope favour feare or the like respects were ready to follow them In this and the like case when false Priestes broach errours and deceive many Tyrants persecute Gods Saints and cause others to retire then I say when the faithfull want their ordinarie entercourse one with another the number of the Church malignant maybe great in comparison of those that belong to the true Church PA. If the Church were not alwayes so conspicuous in what sort then was it visible a visible Church you grant PRO. In the generall militant Church there have in all ages been some Pastors and people more or lesse that have outwardly taught the truth of Religion in substance though not free from errour in all poynts and these have beene visible by their ordinary standing in some part of Gods Church Besides for the more part there have bin also some that withstood and condemned the grosse errours and superstition of their times and these good men whiles they were suffered taught the truth openly but being persecuted by such as went under the Churches name even then also they taught and administred the Sacraments in private to such faithfull ones as would joyne with them and even in those harder times they manifested their Religion by their Writings Letters Confessions at their Iudgement Martyrdome or otherwise as they could Now as learned Doctor White in his Defence of his Brothers booke hath observed whensoever there bee any Pastors in the world which â—ither in an open view or in the presence of any part thereof doe exercise though in private the actions of true Religion by sound teaching the truth and right administration of the Sacraments this is sufficient to make the Church visible by such a manner of visibilitie as may serve for the gathering and preserving of Gods elect Now such visible Pastors and people the Protestant Church was never utterly destitute of PA. You seeme to make the Church both visible and invisible PRO. May not one bee within and seene with his friends and yet hidden to his enemies visible to the seeing and invisible to the blind Indeed Tyrants Infidells and Heretikes they knew the true beleevers as men of another profession but blinded with malice and unbeliefe they acknowledged them not for true professors as M. Bradford told D. Day Bishop of Chichester the fault why the Church is not seene of you is not because the Church is not visible but because your eyes are not cleare enough to see it and indeed such as put not on the spectacles of the Word to finde out the Church but seeke for her in outward pompe are much mistaken Aelian in his History tels us of one Nicostratus who being a well-skilled Artisan and finding a curious piece of worke drawne by Xeuxis that famous Painter one who stood by wondered at him and asked him what pleasure hee could take to stand as hee did still gazing on the picture to whom hee answered Hadst thou mine eyes my friend thou wouldest not wonder nor aske me that question but rather be ravished as I am at the inimitable art of this rare and admired piece In like manner if our Adversaries had their eyes annoynted with the eye-salve of the holy Spirit they might easily discover the Protestant Church and her visible congregations The Aramites 2 Kings 6. chap. could not discerne the citie of Samaria whither the Prophet led them untill their eyes were opened no more can one discerne or difference the true Church from the malignant and conventicles of the wicked untill his mind bee enlightned And thus Saint Austin told the Donatists They could not see the Church on the hill because their eyes were blinded to wit either with ignorance or malice Saint Austin compares the Church to the Moone which waxeth and waneth is eclipsed and sometime as in the change cannot be seene yet none doubts but still there is a
Moone The Church sometimes shines in the cleare dayes of peace and is by and by over-cast with a cloud of persecution as the same Austin saith The Moone is not alwayes in the Full nor the Church ever in her glorious aspect PA. If your Church were alwayes visible where then was it before Luthers time PRO. I might also aske you Where was a great part of your Religion before the Trent Councell which was but holden about the yeere 1534. Now for our Religion it was for substance and in the affirmative parts and positive grounds thereof the question being not of every accessory and secondary poynt it was I say contained in the Canonicall Scriptures wheras you are driven to seeke yours in the Apocryphall in the Trent Creed the Trent Councell Now ours it was contained in the Apostles Creed explayned in the Nicene and Athanasian confirmed by the first foure generall Councels taught in the undoubted writings of the true ancient and orthodox Fathers of the primative Church justiâ—ied from the tongue and penne of our adversaries witnessed by the confessions of our Martyrs which have suffered for truth and not for treason This is the Evidence of our Religion whereas for proofe of yours in divers poynts you are driven to flie to the bastard Treatises of false Fathers going under the name of Abdias Linus Clemens S. Denys and the like as sometime Perkin Warbek a base fellow feigned himselfe to be King Edward the fourths sonne and for a time went under his name and yet these Knights of the poste must be brought in to depose on your behalfe though others of your side have cashiered them as counterfeits PA. If your Professors were so visible name them PRO. This is no reasonable demaund you have rased our Records conveied our Evidence clapt up our Witnesses and suborned your owne you have for your owne advantage as is already showen by that learned Antiquary of Oxford D. Iames and others and shall God willing appeare in the Centuries following you have I say corrupted Councells Fathers and Scriptures by purging and prohibiting what Authors and in what places you would and now you call us to a tryall of Names PA. Particular men may mis-coat the Fathers but our Church hath not PRO. You have witnesse your expurgatory and prohibitory Indices or Tables whereof since my selfe have of late bin an eye-witnesse and seene divers of them both in the publike and private Libraries in Oxford I will therefore acquaint the Reader with the mysterie thereof When that politike Councel of Trent perceived that howsoever men might bee silenced yet bookes would be blabs and tell truth they devised this course They directed a Commission to a company of Inquisitors residing in severall places and therby gave them power to purge and prohibit all manner of Bookes Humanitie and Divinitie ancient late in such sort as they should think fit Vpon this CoÌ„mission renued as occasion served the Inquisitors set forth their severall expurgatory and prohibitory Indices printed at Rome in Spaine in the Low-countries and elsewhere and in these Tables yet to be seen they set down what books were by theÌ„ forbidden and which to be purged and in what places ought were to bee left out whensoever the Workes should be printed anew for according to their Tables or Corrections books were to be printed afresh Now to make sure worke they got as many of the former Editions of the Fathers workes as they could into their hands and suffered no new Copie to come foorth but through their fingers purged according to their Receit neither feared they that their adversaries would set foorth the large volumes of the Fathers Workes or others having not the meanes to vent their Impressions being forbidden to be sold in Catholike countries By this meanes the Romane Censurers thought to stop all tongues and pennes that none should hereafter speake or write otherwise than the Trent Councell had dictatedâ— and so in time all Evidence should have made for the Romane cause Hereby the Reader may perceive that had their device gone on they would in time by their chopping and changing the writings of the Ancient at their pleasure have rased and defaced whatsoever Evidence had made for us and against themselves But so it pleased God that howsoever they had carried the matter cunningly in secret yet at length all comes out their plot was discovered and their Indices came into the Protestants hands The Index of Antwerpe was discovered by Iunius the Spanish and Portugall was never knowne till the taking of Cales and then it was found by the English PA. Might wee not purge what was naught PRO. Indeed if you had purged or prohibited the lewd writings of wanton Aretine railing Rablais or the like you had done well but under-hand to goe and purge out the wholesome sentences of the Fathers such as were agreeable to the Scriptures thus to purge those good old men till you wrung the very blood and life out of them bewrayeth that you have an ill cause in hand that betakes it selfe to such desperate shifts Neither can you justly say that you have corrected what others marred for it was your side that first kept a tampering with the Fathers Works and corrupted them Francis Iunius reports that hee comming in the yeare 1559 to a familiar friend of his named Lewis Savarius Corrector of a Print at Lâ—yden found him over-looking Saint Ambrose Workes wâ—ich Frâ—llonius was printing whereof when Iunius commended the elegancie of the Letter and Edition the Corrector told him secretly it was of all Editions the worst and drawing out many sheets of now waste paper from under the table told him they had printed those sheetes according to the ancient and authenticke Copies but two Franciscan Fryers had by their authoritie cancelled and rejected them and caused other to bee printed and put in their roomes differing from the truth of all their owne books to the great losse of the Printer and wonder of the Corrector so that had yoâ— prevailed neither olde nor new Greeke nor Latin Fathers nor later Writers had been suffered to speake the truth but eiâ—her like Parraâ—s been taâ—ght to lispe Popery or for ever beeâ— put to silâ—nce The best is the Manuscripts which by Gods providence are still preserved amongst us they mâ—ke for us as D. Iames excellently vers'd in Antiquitie hath showen at large PA. Have â—ee purged ought in the Fathers or Scriptures that was not to bee purged PRO. You have as appeares by these instances following St. Chrysostome in his third Sermon uâ—on Lazarus and elsewhere maintaineth thâ— peâ—spicuitie and plainnesse of the Scripâ—ures saying That in divine Scriptures all necessary things are plaine Hee likewise holdeth that faith onely sufficeth in stead of all saying This one thing I will affirme That faith onely by it seâ—fe saâ—eth In like sort Saint Hierome holds That faith only justifieth that workes doe not justifie that
affection as the Scriptures are to be reverenced Is not this to minglâ— water with wine base mettall with good Bullion and so indeed a corrupting of Scripture Besides you have which is fearefull detracted from Gods Word thaâ— which was written with his owne finger to wit the second Commandement against the worship of Images and because the words thereof are sharpe and rip up the heart-strings of your Idolatrie you have therefore omitted them in your Catechismes Prayer bookes and in your Office of the blessed Virgin set foorth by commaund of Pius Quintus and to salve up the matter lest thereby wee should have no more then nine Commaundements you have cut the tenth into two You might well have left the words â—here that Gods people might know there was such a Commandement howsoever they had counted it the first or the second Now as you have detracted so you have added to the rule of Faith by thrusting into the Canon the Apocryphall bookes which Hierome the best languaged of all the Father rejected Lastly you doe not only allow but impose on others a corrupt translation of Scripture to wit the vulgar Latine Edition whereas wee referre our selves to the Originals Now surely wee may better trust an originall Record than a Copie extracted thence and it is more wholesome to drinke at the well-head than at a corrupt and muddie streame Now the Latine Edition which you follow and preferre before all others it is but a Translation it selfe but the Hebrew and Greeke which wee follow are the Well-springs and Originalls Is not this now a manifest corrupting of Scripture to bind all men as your Trent Councell doth that none dare presume to reject this Translation which by your owne men is confessed not to be Saint Hierâ—mes and already showne to be a corrupt one by the learned of our side PA. I looke to have your Professors named PRO. Restore us entire our Evidence which you have marred and made away returne us our Witnesses which you have chained up in your Vatican Library and elsewhere and wee accept your challenge But doe you indeed looke to have our professors named and why so the true Church of God may bee visible though the names of her visible professors from time to time can not be shewed there might be thousands of professors in former ages and yet happily no particular authentick Record of their names now extant or if extant yet so as we cannot come by them Neverthelesse to answere you at your owne weapon I hope to make it cleare that God hath dealt so graciously with his Church as that he hath continually preserved sufficient testimonies of his truth that are ready to be deposed on our side and that successively from age to age so that I may say as Saint Ambrose did in the like case You may well blot out our Letters but our Faith you shall never abolish Papists may conceale our evidence and wipe out the names of our Professors out of the Records but when all is done the Protestants faith is perpetuall Now in that we yeeld thus farre to their importunitie we doe not this as if it were simply necessary for the Demonstration of our Church to produce such a Catalogue of visible Professors in all Ages but onely out of the confidence of the truth of our cause and partly to stop the mouth of our clamorous adveâ—saries For it is Tertullians Rule that A Church is to bee accounted Apostolike if it hold Consanguinitie of Doctrine with the Apostles Now what though we could noâ— successively name such as taught as we doe yet because God hath promised there should be alwaies in the world a true Church having either a larger or smaller number of Prosessors it sufficeth that we are able out of Scripture to demonstrate that we maintaine the same Faith and Religion which the holy Apostles taught and Christ would have to be perpetuall this I say sufficeth to manifest our Succession although all Histories were silent of the names of our Professors Now that I am to speake of the Church in her severall and successive Centuries and Ages to give the Reader some Character and touch thereof I will beginne with the fiâ—st 600. yeares next after Christ wherein ten severall times during the fiâ—st three Centuries the Church was persecuted by Tyrants and almost continually assaulted by Heretikes yet in the end Truth prevailed against Error and Patience overcame her Persâ—cutors This is the time wherein our learned Bishop Iewell challenged the Papists to shew any Orthodoxe Father Councell or Doctor that for the space of those 600 Yeares taught as the present Church of Rome did the like challenge was lately renued by my deare friend that worthy Divine Doctor Featly of Oxford challenging the Iesuits to produce out of good Authors any Citie Parish or Hamlet within 500. yeares next after Christ wherein there was any visible assembly that maintained in generall the Articles of the Trent Councell or such and such points of Popery as at the Conference hee named in particular Now of this period the first 300. yeares thereof were the very flower of the Primitive Church because that in theâ—e dayes the truth of the Gospell was infallibly taught by Christ and his Apostles and that in their owne persons as also by otheâ—s that lived to heare see and converse with those blessed Apostles and disciples of Christ Iesus and this haply made Egesippus an ancient Authour call the Church of those dayes an uncorrupt and virgin Church and yet was this virgin Church ill intreated by such a sowed the tares of errour which yet the carefull husbandman in time weeded up neither indeed for the space of these first 300 could those Tenets of Poperie get any footing their Papall Indulgences were yet unhatched their purgatory fire was yet unkindled it made not as afterwards their pot boyle and their kitchin smoake the Masse was yet unmoulded Transubstantiation was yet unbaked the treasury of Merits was yet unminted the Popes transcendent power was uncreated Ecclesiastickes were unexempted and deposing of Kings yet undreamed of the Lay-people were not yet couzned of the cup Communion under one kinde was not yet in kinde it was not then knowne that Liturgies and prayers were usually and publikely made in a tongue unknowne they did not then worship and adore any wooden or breaden god they worshipt that which they knew and that in Spirit and truth and they called on him in whom they beleeved so did they and so doe wee In a word in the former ages of the Church Satan was bound after the thousandth yeare hee was loosed and after the middle of the second Millenary about the yeare 1370 hee was bound anew Concerning the Churches estate in the next five hundred yeares it grew very corrupt so that of these times we may say as Winefridus borne at Kirton in Devonshire after surnamed Boniface was
they do meane the Pope for the time being Now to this height the Pope came under pretence of the Churches government the Churches discipline racking the spirituall censure to a civill punishment by the Church solemnities in crowning Emperors by his Excommunications Absolutions and Dispensations he rose to his greatnesse of state by the doctrine of workes meritorious Iubilees Pardons and Indulgences hee maintained his State And now I come to shew out of good Authors that in nine severall weighty poynts of Religion the best guides of Gods Church for the space of 1500 yeares have taught as the Church of England doth THE FIRST CENTVRIE From the first yeare of Grace unto the yeare One Hundred Christ Iesus and his Apostles the Protestants Founders PAPIST WHom doe you name in this first Age that taught the Protestant Faith PROTESTANT I name our blessed Saviour Christ Iesus and his Apostles Saint Paul and his Schollers Titus and Timothie together with the Churches which they planted as that of the Romanes Corinthians and the rest These I name for our first Founders and top of our kin as also Ioseph of Arimathea that buried Christs body a speciall Benefactor to the Religion planted in this land These taught for substance and in the positive grounds of religion as we doe in our Articles Liturgies Homilies and Apologies by publike authoritie established in our Church of England Besides these there were but few Writers in this age whose undoubted Works have come to our hands yet for instance sake I name that blessed Martyr of Christ Ignatius Bishop of Antioch who for the name of Iesus was sentenced to bee dâ—voured of wild beasts which hee patiently indured saying I am the Wheat or graine to bee ground with the teeth of beasts that I may be pure Bread for my Masters tooth let fire rackes pulleys yea and all the torments of Hell come on mee so I may winne Christ. Here also according to the Roman Register I might place Dionysius Areopagita whom they usually place in this first Age as if hee were that Denys mentioned in the Actes whereas indeed hee is a post natus and in all likelihood lived about the fourth Age and not in this first for Denys saith That the Christians had solemne Temples like the Iewes and the Chancell severed with such and such sanctification from the rest of the Church whereas the Christians in this fiâ—st age made their assemblies to prayer both in such private places and with such simplicitie as the Apostles did and as the times of persecution suffered them Againe Denys tells us that when hee wrote Monkes were risen and they of credit in the Churches and many Ceremonies to hallow them whereas in the Apostles time when the true Dionysius lived Monkes were not heard of yea Chrysostome saith That when Paul wrote his Epistle to the Hebrewes there was not then so much as any footstep of a Monke PA. I challenge Saint Denys for ours hee was as our Rhemists say all for the Catholikes PRO. Take him as he is and as he comes to our hands hee is not wholly yours but in some things cleane contrary to you as namely in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper wherein you vary from us most Besides hee hath not your sole receiving of the Priest nor ministring under one kind to them who receive nor Exhortations Lessons Prayers in a tongue which the people understand not he hath not your Invocation of Saints noâ— adoration of creatures nor sacrificing of Christ to God nor praying for the soules in purgatory so that in things of substance and not of ceremony onely he is ours and not yours as I hope will appeare by his Writings for we will for the time suppose him to be a Father of this first age although the bookes which beare Saint Denys his name seeme to bee written in the fourth or fifth age after Christ. PAP Can you proove that Christ and his Apostles taught as you doe PRO. Wee have cleare testimonies of Scripture which appoint Gods people to receive the blessed Cup in the Sacrament and to be present at such a divine service as themselves understand wee have expresse command forbidding Image-worship against Invocation of Saints it is said that Abraham knoweth us not and Isaac is ignorant of us and the blessed Angel refused all religious honour and Adoration Likewise against Merit of workes and workes of Super-erogation it is said that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall bee revealed in us and that wee are unproâ—itable servants when we have done all that was commanded us we have but done that which was our dutie to doe and the like PA. You alleadge Scripture and so doe wee yea in some things the Scripture is plaine for us as where it is said This is my Bodie PRO. What though it make for you in shew so doth it for the Anabaptists where it is said that the Christians had all things common you will not hence inferre that because in such an extremitie their charitie for the reliefe of others made things common concerning the use that therefore we should have no property in the goods that God hath given us It is not the shew and semblance of words but the sense thereof that imports the truth Saint Paul sayes of his Corinths Ye are the body of Christ yet not meaning any Transubstantiation of substance but hâ—reof anon in his due place PA. The Scriptures make not for you but as you have translated them PRO. For any point we hold we referre our selves to the Originalls yea wee say further let the indifferent Christian Reader who hath but tollerable understanding of the Latine Tongue compare our English translations with those which your owne men Pagnine Arias Montanus and others have published and they will finde but little countenance for Poperie and namely for Communion in one kind and Service in a strange Tongue which as is already proved hath bene decreed directly contrary to Gods expresse word but let us come to the particulars Of the Scriptures sufficiency and Canon The Church of England holds that Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation so that theâ—e is no doctrine necessary for our everlasting salvation but that is or may bee drawne out of that Fountaine of truth as being either expressely therein contained or such as by sound inference may bee deduced from thence and this is witnessed by Saint Paul saying that they are able to make us wise unto salvation that the man of God may bee perfited and throughly furnished unto all good workes which they should not bee able to doe if they contained not a perfect doctrine of all such poynts of faith as we are bound to bâ—leeve and duties to bee practised And if it be said that S. Paul speakes of the man of God such an one as
Timothie was it holds in others also for if the Scripture be so profitable for such and such uâ—eâ— that thereby it perfects a Divine much more an ordinary Christian that which can peâ—fit the teacher is sufficient for the learner PA. Doe you disclaime all Traditions PRO. We acknowledge Traditions concerning Discipline and the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church but not concerning the doctrine or matter of faith Religion You equalize unwritten traditions to holy Scripture receiving them saith your Trent Councell with equall reverence and religious affection as you receive the holy Scriptures themselves we daâ—e not doe so but such traditions as we râ—ceive we hold and esteeme farre inferiour Concerning the Scriptuâ—e Canon the Trent Councell accurseth such as receive not the Bookes of Machabees Ecclesiasticus â—oby Iudith Baruch Wisdome for Canonical Scriptuâ—e Now wee retaine the same Canon which Christ and his Apostles held and received from the Iewes unto whom were committed the Oracles of God being as Saint Augustine speakes The Christians Library-keepers Now the Iewes never received these Bookes which wee terme Apocryphall into their Canon yea Christ himselfe divided the Canon into three severall rankes iâ—to the Law the Prophets and the Psalmes now the Apocryphal come not within this reckoning Indeed as S. Hierome saith The Church reades these Bookes for example of life and instruction of manners but yet it doth not apply them to stablish any Doctrine Of Comunion under both kindes and the number of Sacraments If any shall say The Church was not induced for just causes to communâ—caâ—e the â—ay people under one kinde vâ—z of bread onely and shall say they â—rred in so doing let him bee accursed saith the Trent Councell Now our Chuâ—ch holds That both the parts of the Lords Sacrament ought to bâ—e ministred to all Gods people so thaâ— according to us In the publâ—kâ— celebraâ—ion of â—he Eâ—chaâ—ist Communion in boâ—h kinds ouâ—ht to bee given to all sorts of Câ—riâ—â—ians righâ—ly disposed and prepared and this oâ—â— Tenet is agâ—eâ—able to Christes Institution and Precept who saith exprâ—sly and liâ—erally Drink yee all of this It agrees aâ—so with Saint Pauls precept and with the practice of the holy Apostleâ— and the priâ—ative Church Dionysius Arcopagita who as you say was Saint Pauls Scholler and Disciple relates the practice of the Church in his time on this manner After the Priest hath prayed that hee may hoâ—â—ly distribute and that all they that are to partake of the Sacrament may receiue it worthyly he breakes the Bread into many pieces and divides one Cup among all Ignatius who was Scholler to Saint Iohn the Evangelist saith That one Bread is broken unto all and one Cup destributed unto all PA. Bellarmine saith the words of Ignatius are not as you alleage them There is one Cup distributed unto all but there is one Cup of the whole Church and though the Greeke Copies reade as you doe yet he saith That much credit is not to be given to them PROT. Shall we give more credit to a Translâ—tion then to the Originall If the Well-head and Spring bee corâ—upted how shall the Brooke or Streame runne cleare It may be indeed that divers errors are crept both into the Greeke Latine Copies but for the place alleagâ—d there is no colour of corruption in asmuch as the same that Ignatius spake of the Bread the same are repeated of the Cup according to Christs Institution and howsoever Bellarmine may produce some Latine Copie that translateth the words of Ignatius as Bellarmine sets them downe Vnus Calix totius Ecclesiae yet as D. Featly observes in the Grand Sacriledge of the Romish Church Vitlemius and divers other Latin Copies following the originall verbatim render them thus Vnus Calix omnibus distributus that is One Cup distributed unto all and not as Bellarmine and Baronius ad Ann. 109 sect 25. would have it as if Ignatius had said that one Cup was distributed not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 omnibus but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pro omnibus not to all but for all that is for the behoofe and benefit of all Howsoever they wrest it Ignatius tels us of one Cup and this not the Priests Cup but the Churches Cup and this Cup was distributed But now adaies in the Masse there is no distribution of the Cup. PA. Christ spake these words Drinke yee all of this only to the Apostles as they were Priests and not to the Laitie PRO. By this meanes you might take away the Bread as well as the Cup from the Lay-people for when Christ administred the Sacrament none were present for ought we know but onely the Apostles Besides the Apostles were not yet fully ordained Priests though they had beene once sent to Preach Christ after his Resurrection breathed on them the holy Ghost and fully endued them with Priestly power Iohn 20.22 Againe the Apostles at this Supper were Communicants not Ministers of the Sacrament Christ was then the onely Minister in that Action Now Christ delivered them the Cup as well as the Bread saying to the same persons at the same time and in the same respect Drinke yee all of this to whom hee had said before Take and Eate giving both alike in charge so that you must either barre the people from both or admit them to both now if neither precept of eating or drinking belong to the Laitie the Laitie are not at all bound to receive the Sacrament PA. Although it be said of Drinking the Cup Doe this in remembrance of me Yet the Words Doe this are spoken Absolutely of the Bread and but Conditionally of the Cup namely as often as yee shall drinke it 1 Cor. 11.25 So that these Words Doe this in remembrance of me inferre not any Commandement of receiving in both kindes PRO. According to your Tenet our Saviour saith not Doe this as often as you Lay men communicate but whensoever you receive the Cup and drinke then doe it in remembrance of me as much as to say as often as you Lay people drinke which needeth never be done by you according to Romish Divinitie Doe this nothing in remembrance of mee Besides as there is a Quotiescunque as often set before the Cup As oft as you drinke so there is a Quotiescunque set before the Bread As often as you shall eate this Bread vers 26. so that quotiâ—scunque biberitis as often as you Drinke cannot make the Precept Conditionall in respect of the Cup more than of the Bread it being alike referred to the Bread and to the Cup. PA. We wrong not the Laitie ministring unto them under one kinde onely they receiving the same benefit by one that they should doe by both Christs body and bloud being whole in each so that the people receive the bloud together with the Host by a Concomitancy PRO. In vaine have you devised Concomitance to
may grow in respect of farther Explanations but it cannot increase in Substantiall points even as a child as Vicentius Lirinensis â—aith though he grow in stature yet hath he no more limbs when he becommeth a man than he had when he was a child so the Church hath no more parts or Articles of Faith in her riper age than she had in her infancie and by this rule new Rome is a Monster if she have more â—word oâ— liâ—bs of Faith now in her declining age than ancient Rome had in her flourishing age And herein we challenge our adversaries to shew the body of their Religion peâ—fited in this first and purest age what time the Church was in her vigour and the Scripture Canon finished and consigned but they dare not be tried by the booke of Scripture Now for us we willingly put our cause to bee tried by that honourable and unpartiall Iury of Christ and his twelve Apostles and the Evidence that shall be given by the testimonie and vivâ voce of holy Scripture but they turne their backs and fly from this triall But I proceed and come to Ioseph of Arimathea whom I named for one of our Ilands speciall Benefactors it was this Ioseph as our best Antiquaries say that together with twelve other Disciples his Assistants came out of France into Britaine and preached the Christian Faith in the Western part of this Iland now called Glastenbury which place in ancient Charters was termed the Grave of the Saints the Mother Church the Disciples foundation whereby it is very likely that our land was first converted by Ioseph of Arimathea being sent hither by S. Phillip not from S. Peter and that not from Rome but from Arimathea which was not farre from Hierusalem so that Hierusalem is the Mother of us all as both Hierome and Theodoret say And this is the rather probable because that upon Austin the Monks comming into England the British Bishops observed their Easter and other points of difference according to the Greâ—ke or Easterne Church and not after the Romane Westerne Church which makes it probable that our first conversion came from the Christian converted Iewes or Grecians and not from the Romanes but howsoever it were or whence-soever they came wee blesse God for the great worke of our conversion THE SECOND CENTVRIE From the yeare of Grace 100. to 200. PAPIST WHom doe you name in this Age PROTESTANT In this Age lived Hegesippus of the Iewish Nation afterwards converted to Christianitie Melito Bishop of Sardis Iustine Martyr who of a Philosopher became both a Christian and a Martyr Now also lived Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons in France sometimes Scholler to Polycarp and both of them Martyred foâ— the name of Christ of this Polycarp Bishop of Smyrna it is recorded that being urged by the Romane Deputie to deny Christ he stoutly replied on this manner I have served him these foure-score and six yeares and he hath not hurt me and shall I now deny him Now also lived Clemens Alexandrinus who was Scholler to one Pantenus these two seeme to be the Authors of Vniversities and Colledges for they taught the Grounds of Religion not by Sermons and Homilies to the people but by Catecheticall doctrine to the Learned in the Schooles Now that in point of doctrine we consent with the Worthies of this Age it may appeaâ—e by the testimonie of Irenâ—us a Disciple of those that heard Saint Iohn the Apostle for he layeth downe no other Articles of Faith and Grounds of Religion then our ordinarie Catechisme teacheth besides he sheweth that in the unitie of that Faith the Churches of Germany Spain France the East Aegypt Libya and all the World were founded and therein sweetly accorded as if they had al dwelt in one house all had had but one soule and one heart and one mouth The like doth his contemporary Tertullian he gives the fundamentall points of Religion gathered out of the Scriptures and delivered by the Churches the same which our Church delivereth and no other for the Rule of Faith Of the Scriptures Sufficiencie and Canon Irenaeus saith The Scriptures are perfect as spoken from the Word of God and his Spirit and Erasmus observes that Irenaeus fought against the troupes of Heretikes onely by the forces and strength of Scripture indeed he sometimes chargeth them with the Churches tradition wounding them with their owne weapon but this was with such undoubted tradition as were in his time thought to bee Apostolike which he might easily discerne living so neere the Aposâ—les dayes Melito Bishop of Sardis being desired by Onesimus to send him a Catalogue of the Bookes of the Old Testament makes no mention of Iudith Tobit Ecclesiasticus nor the Maccabees and yet he profesâ—eth that he made very diligent search to set downe a perfect Cannon thereof And this is likewise confessed by Bellarmine many ancients saith he as namely Melitoâ— did follow the Hebrew Canon of the Iewes Of Communion under both kinds and number of Sacraments Iustin Martyr saith they which are called Deacons among us give to every one that is present of the consecrated Bread Wineâ— adding withal as Christ coÌ„manded them now these words which mention Christs Commandement Bellarmine would haue to belong to the Consecration only not to the Communion whereas Iâ—stin extends Christs precept to both both being injoyned in that precept doe this in remembrance of me so that we have both Christs precept and this Ages practice for our Communion in both Clemens Alexandrinus wrote a booke against the Gentiles which he calls 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as ye would say woven after the manner of coverings mixed with the testimonies of Scriptures Poets Philosophers and Histories and therein he hath these words When they distribute the Holy Eucharist as the custome is they permit every one of the people to take a part or portion thereof and what he meaneth by Eucharist himselfe explaineth saying the mingling of the drinke and of the Water and the Word is that which we call the Eucharist so that according to him not Bread onely but Bread and Wine is the Eucharist and of this every one of the people participated in his time and therefore all dranke of the Cup. Iustine Martyr in his Apologie for the Christians specifies no other Sacraments than Baptisme and the Lords Supper and yet in that treatise of his he was justly occasioned to mention the Sacraments of the Church and there he relates the manner of their Church-service Liturgies and Commnuion so that there had beene a fit place for him to have named those other five if the Church had then knowne them Of the Eucharist That the substance of Bread and Wine remaineth in the Sacrament after the words of Consecration albeit the use of the elements bee changed is cleere by the Fathers of this Age. Iustine Martyr saith that the elements of Bread
God would receive our prayers Thus he in his mystagogicall Catechismes Answer The learned doe thinke that Cyril of Hierusalem was not Author thereof but one Iohn Bishop of Hierusalem who lived about the yeare 767 a great advocate of Images and indeed it may seeme so by some idle stuffe we find in them as namely where it is said That the wood of the Crosse did increase and multiply in such sort that the earth was full thereof But be it Cyrils of Hierusalem it makes not for the Romists All he saith is this in effect he supposeth that those holy ones with God doe continually pray unto God which prayers he desires God would mercifully heare and grant unto them for the good of his servants here on earth Lastly he sayth mentionem facimus and so did the ancients in their Commemorations mention the Godly Saints deceased and yet without any direct invoking of them And so Saint Austin saith That the Martyrs were named at the Communion Table but yet not invocated by the Priest Saint Austin flatly opposeth invocantur to nominantur nominantur sed non invocantur so that they might be nominated and mentioned as Cyril speakes and yet not at all invocated Objection Saint Hilary saith that by reason of our infirmitie we stand in need of the intercession of Angels and the like he hath upon the 124 Psalme Answer Hilary speakes onely of Angelicall intercession not a word touching invocation or intercession of Saints And if any intercession be intended it is that in generall for the whole Church In the other place upon the 124 Psalme Hilary speaks neither of Saints praying for us nor of praying to them but sayth That the Church hath no small ayde in the Apostles Prophets and Patriarkes or rather in the Angels which hedge and compasse the Church round about with a certaine guard the ayde therefore he meaneth is the example and doctrine of the Saints departed and the ministerie of the Angels Objection The Emperour Theodosius went in Procession with his Clergy and Laity to the Oratories and Chappels and lying prostrate before the Shrines and Monuments of the Apostles and Martyrs he required ayde to himselfe by the faithfull intercession of the Saints Answer The Emperour did not invocate any Saint or Saints at all onely upon that exigent of the rebellion of Eugenius and his complices he repayres to the Shrines and Chappels of the Apostles Martyrs and other holy Saints there he made his prayers unto God in Christ not unto them desiring God to ayde him against his enemies and the rather upon the prayers and intercession of the Saints on his behalfe now invocation followes not presently upon intercession Reply Sozomen telleth us that the Emperour before he joyned battaile he earnestly intreated to be assisted by Saint Iohn Baptist. Rejoynder The learned Bishop Bishop Mountague answereth that the credit of this story may â—e questioned for Socrates and Thâ—odoret elder than Sozomen have it not and Sozomen himselfe hath no greater warrant for iâ— then heaâ—e say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the report is but who the Author was whaâ— credit it was of is not related But supposing the truth of the story Ruffinus hath the very forme of the Prayer which the Emperour made and there is no mention therein of invocating either Saint or Angâ—l Socrates saith that the Emperor implored Gods assistance and had his desire Theodoret saith that the Eâ—perour prayed to God so that the Emperour had repayre unto God alone without any mediation at all I have consulted with the Originall and there indeed I find that the Emperour being in Saint Iohn Baptist's Church which Theodosius himsâ—lfe had built He called to have Saint Iohn Baptist's assistance in the battaile he did not directly call upon S. Iohn Baptist but he called upon God that he would appoint the Baptist for to aâ—d him But be it that he called upon the Baptist indeed yet this was done in the second place after he had first immediatly called upon God himsâ—lfe Objection Athanasius in his Sermon upon the Annunciation of blessâ—d Virgin sayth to the Virgin Mary Incline thine cares to our prayers and forget not thy people Answer Indeed this speakes home but it is not the true Athanâ—sius but some counterfeits bearing his name and this is confessed by the two Arch pillars of Poperie Bellarmine and Baronius for howsoever Bellarmine to make up his number produce Athanâ—sius for proofe of Saintly invocation yet the same Bâ—llarmine when he is out of the heat of his controversies and is not tied to maintaine â—he invocation of Saints but treateth of other matters then in his Catalogue of Ecclesiasticall wriâ—ers he is of another judgement and saith that this Sermon of Athanasius of the Annunciation of the blessed Virgin seemeth not to be Athanasiusses but some later writeâ—s who lived afâ—er the sixâ—h generall Councel Baronius also is of the same judgement and indeed he that shall consider and wâ—iâ—h what the true Athanasius writes to wit That God onely is to be worshipped that the creature is not to fall downe and worship or supplicate the creature nor to make the Saints being but creatures no creators speciall helpers and opitulators he I say that shall duely weigh these things will easily conceive when he reads this Sermon of the Annunciation that either Athanasius was not constant to his own doctrine which is not to bee imagined or that this Homily alleadged is none of the true Athanasiusses it is so farre different from his other doctrine Objection Bellarmine for proofe of Saintly invocation alleadgeth a place out of Eusebius the testimonie speaketh thus as there it standeth reported out of the thirteenth Booke and seaventh Chapter of his Evangelicall Preparation This we daily doe we honour those heavenly Souldiers as Gods friends we approach unto their Monuments and pray unto them as unto Holy men by whose intercession we professe our selves to be much holpâ—n Answer Eusebius speakes not of particular invocation for particular intercession but of generall mediation of the Saints in heaveÌ„ who pray for Saints on earth in general according to the nature of Communion of Saints without any intercession used to theÌ„ or invocation of them by that other moity of the Church Militant oâ— earth Secondly Eusebiuâ— doth not enlarge his speech to all the Saints departed but unto Martyrs onely whom he calleâ—h Heavenly Souldiers Now the case of Martyrs and other Saints is not equall for in the opinion of the Ancients that of Martyrs was faâ—re above all other depaâ—ted with God as enjoying moâ—e priviledge from God with Christ in glory by some specially enlarged dispensation than they the other holy Saints did as Saint Augustine teacheth 3. Thirdly the place alleadged is taken out of a corrupt translation made by Trapezuntius and afterwards followed by Dadroeus a Doctour of Paris
it is a straine of rhetoricke why not the other also Sixtus Senensis gives a good rule for interpretation of the Fathers speeches specially in this argument The sayings of Preachers are not to be urged in that rigour of their words for after the manner of Oratours they use to speake many times hyperbolically and in excesse And hee instanceth in Chrysostome as well hee might for hee is full of them even there where hee speakes of the Sacraments hee saith That our teeth are fixed in the flesh of Christ that our tongues are dyed red with his bloud and againe That it is not the Minister but God that baptizeth thee and holdeth thy head Now these and the like sayings must be favourably construed as being improper speeches rhetoricall straines purposely uttered to move affections stirre up devotion and bring the Sacrament out of contempt that so the Communicanâ—s eyes may not bee finally fixed on the outward elements of bread and wine being in themselves but transitory and corruptible creatures but to have their hearts elevated and lift up by faith to behold the very body of Christ which is represented in these mysteries Otherwise the Fathers come downe to a lower key when they come to speake to the point yea or no and accordingly Saint Chrysostome when once he is out of his Rhetoricall veine and speaks positively and doctrinally sayth When our Lord gave the Sacrament hee gave wine and againe Doe wee not offer every day Wee offer indeed but by keeping a memory of his deaâ—h and hee puts in a kind of caution or correction lest any should mistake him Wee offer saith hee the same Sacrifice or rather the remembrance thereof And such a Commemorative and Eucharisticall sacrifice we acknowledge Object Saint Cyril of Alexandria useth the word corporally saying that by the mysticall benediction the Sonne of God is united to us corporally as man and spiritually as God Answer Hereby is meant a full perfect spirituall conjunction with the sanctified Communicants excluding all manner of Imagination or fantasie and not a grosse and fleshly being of Christ's body in our bodyes according to the appearance of the letter otherwise this inconvenience would follow that our bodies must be in like manner corporally in Christ's body for Cyril as hee saith Châ—ist is corporally in us so he saith weare corporally in Christ by corporally then he meaneth that neere and indissoluble union in the same sence that the Apostle useth it saying In him dwelâ—eth all the fulnesse of the Godhead bodily Coll. 2.9 bodâ—ly that is indissolubly Bâ—sides Christ is likewise joyned corporally to us by the Sacrament of Baptisme and yet therein there is no Transubstantiation Of Image-worship Saint Hierome saith We worship one Image which is the Image of the invisible and omnipotent God Saint Austine saith No Image of God ought to be worshipped but that which is the same thing that he is meaning Christ Iesus Col. 1.15 Hebr. 1.3 nor yet that for him but with him And as for the representing of God in the similitude of a man he resolveth that it is Vtterly unlawfull to erect any such Image to God in a Christian Church He condemneth the use of Images even when they are not adored for themselves but made instruments to worship God saying Thus have they deserved to erre which sought Christ and his Apostles in painted Images and not in written bookes The same Austine writing of the manners of the Catholike Church directly severeth the case of some men who were wont to kneele superstitiously in Churh yards before the tombes of Martyrs and the painted histories of their sufferings these private mens cases he severeth from the common cause and approved practice of the Catholike Church saying Doe not bring in the company of rude mâ—n which in the true religion it selfe are superstitious I know many that are worshippers of Graves and pictures Now this I advise that you cease to speake evill of the Catholike Church by upbraiding it with the manners of those men whom she her selfe condemneth and seeketh every day to correct as naughtie children so that in Saint Austines times as is already noâ—ed Images and Image-worship were not used by any generall warranted practice if some mis-informed men used it this could not in Saint Austines opinion make it a Church duty necessary and Catholike or draw it to bee a generall custome Bellarmine answereth that Saint Austine wrote this in the beginning of his Conversion to Christianitie and that upon better information he changed his mind but he tells us not in what part of his Retractations this is to be found Divers other shifts besides are used herein and some fly to the distinction of an Idoll and an Image but that will not seâ—ve for the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is often translated Simulachrum a likenesse or similiâ—â—de and as eveâ—y Idoll is an Image of some thing so every Image worshipped turnes Idoll there may be some ods in the language but none in the thing it selfe Bellarmine minceth the matter and would have the Image worshipped not propeâ—ly and because of it selfe but reductively inasmuch as it doth expresse the Sampler Others hold that the Image is to bee worshipped in it selfe and with the sâ—mâ— woâ—ship that the person is which is represented so that the Crucifixe is to be reverenced with the selfe same honâ—ur that Christ Iesus is And as for the vulgar people they goe bluntly to it with downâ—right adoration Cassander saith It is more manifest than that it can bee denyed that the worship of Images and Idols hath too much prevailed and the supâ—rstitious humour of people hath beene so cockeredâ— that nothing hath beene omitted among us either of the highest adoration and vanity of Painims in worshipping and adoring Images Polydore also saith People are growne to such madnesse that there are many rude and stupid persons which adore Images of wood stone marble and brasse or paintâ—d in windowes not as signes but as though they had sense and they repose more trust in them than in Christ or the Saints to which they are dedicated Ludovicus Vives saith Saiâ—ts are esteemed and worshipped by many as were the Gods among the Gentiles Objection The honour or dishonour done to the Image redoundeth to the person represented or pâ—ototype as appeares by our being uncovered using reverence in the Kings Chamber of presence and before his Chaire of estate when his person is absent in like sort the honour and worship due to the Image redoundeth to Christ and his Saints now if an Image bee capable of contempt and reproach it is also capable of honour and worship Answer The Rule The dishonour done to the Image redoundeth to the person is true specially in civill affaires when the Party would be honoured by the Image and thus was Theodosius grieved with them of Antioch for casting downe his
Dinooch the Abbot of Bangor a learned man made it appearâ— by divers arguments when Austine required the Bishops to be subject unto him that they ought him no subjection yea they farther added That they had an Arch-bishop of their owne him they ought and would obey but they would not be subject to any forraigne Bishop For such an one belike they held the Pope to be Neither can it bee truly alleadged that they refused his jurisdiction not his religion for Bede saith That they withstood him in all that ever he sayd now surely hee sayd somewhat else besides his Arch-bishopricke and his Pall or else he had beene a very ambitious man Besides in the dayes of Laurentius Austines successour Bishop Daganus denied all Communion And refused to eate bread in the same Inne wherein the Romish Prelates lodged belike then they differed in matters of weight PA. Wherein stood the difference what doe you hence inferre whether were you not beholden to our Austine PRO. The Romans kept their Easter in memorie of Christs Resurrection upon the first Sunday after the full Moone of March the Britanes kept theirs in memory of Christs Passion upon the fourteenth day of the Moone of March on what day of the weeke soever it fell this they did after the example of the Easterne Churches in Asia grounded on a tradition received from Saint Iohn whereby it seemeth the British Church rather followed the custome of the East Church in Asia planted by Saint Iohn and his disciples than the Romane which yet had they been of the Romish jurisdiction they would in all likelyhood have followed now since they followed the Easterne custome it is probable that our first conversion to Christianitie came from the Converted Iewes or Grecians and not from the Romanes and that Britaine was not under their jurisdiction But whencesoever our Conversion were wee blesse God for it Now concerning Austine and the Britaines we acknowledge to Gods glory that howsoever the superfluitie of Ceremonies which Austine brought in might well have been spared yet Austine and his Assistants Iustus Iohn and Melitus converted many to the Faith Neither can we excuse the Britaines for refusing to joyne with Austine in the conversion of the Pagan Saxons yet withall we must needs say they had just reason to refuse to put their necks under his yoke and surely if Austine had not had a proud spirit he would onely have requested their helpe for the worke of the Lord and not have sought dominion over them which makes it very probable that his obtruding the Popes jurisdiction over the Britaines occasioned that lamentable slaughter of the Britaines For when as Austine solicited the Britaines to obey the See of Rome and they denied it then did Ethelbert a Saxon Prince lately converted by Austine stirre up Edelfred the Wild the Pagan King of Northumberland against the Britaines whereupon the Infidel Saxon Souldiers made a most lamentable slaughter of the Britaines assembled at Westchester and that not onely on the Souldiers prepared to fight but on the Monks of Bangor assembled for prayer of whom they slew twelue hundred together with Dinooch their Abbot all which as Ieffery Monmouth saith being that day honoured with Martyrdome obtained a seat in the Kingdome of Heaven And this was the wofull issue of their stickling for jurisdiction over other Churches PA. Baronius calleth the Britaines Schismaticks for not yeelding to the Pope PRO. The Britaine Church had anciently a Patriarke or Primate of her owne like other Provinces to him the other Bishops of his Church were subject and not to the Romane PA. The Nicâ—n Councel condemned the Quartadecimans and in them your Britaines for Hereticks saith Parsons PRO. To his testimonie we oppose the Iudgement of a Frier minorite who expressely calleth them Catholikes Besides had that famous Councell of Sardice held our British Bishops for Hereticks they had never admitted them to give sentence in that Councel as they did for by name Restitutus Bishop of London subscribed thereunto and was likewise pâ—esent at the Synod of Arles in France as Parsons reporteth out of Athanasius Againe those who kept Easter on the fourteenth day precisely were of two sorts Some as Polycrates and other Bishops in Asia kept it so meerely in imitation of Saint Iohn the Evangelist as an ancient but yet an indifferent and mutable rite or tradition and these were condemned for Hereticks and such were our Britaines Others kept the fourteenth day even eo nomine and by vertue of the Mosaicall law holding a necessity of observing that peremptory day as appointed by Mosesâ— now this was the meanes to bring Iudaisme which quite abolisheth Christ and evacuateth the whole Gospel like those who amongst the Galathians urged Circumcision to whom Saint Paul professeth that Christ should profit them nothing And this was it was condemned in the Quarta-decimans but of this the Britaine 's were cleere They should indeed have conformed themselves to the Councels decree yet because that decree was not a decree of Faith no farther then it condemned the Necessitie of observing the fourteenth day and therein condemned the Quartaâ—decimans but a decree of Order discipline and uniformity in the Church when it was once knowne and evident that any particular Church condemned the necessitie of that fourteenth day the Church by a connivencie permitted and did not censure the bare observing of that day The same Councel decreed that on every Lords day from Easter to Whitsâ—ntide none should pray kneeling but standing wherein the Church notwithstanding the decree useth the like connivence not strictly binding every particular Church to doe so so long as there is unitie and agreement in the doctrines of Faith the Church useth not to bee rigorous with particular Churches which are her children for the varietie and difference in outward rites though commanded by her selfe as my learned kinsman Doctor Crakanthorpe hath well observed PA. This odds about keeping Easter was but of small weight PRO. It was so if we consider our Christian libertie in the observation of times yâ—t was it held a matter of that consequence that Pope Victor Excommunicated all the Churches of Asia which differed from him in the observation thereof PA. What conclude you from your Britaines Faith PRO. Vpon the Premises it followeth that seeing the doctrine of the Popes Supremacie over all Churches was no part of the Britaines Faith when Austine came therefore neither was it any part of their Faith in Eleutherius dayes no nor in the Apostles time neither since as Mathew of Westminster saith The Britaines Faith never failed Againe seeing the Britaines Faith as Parsons truly affirmeth was then to wit at Austines comming the same which the Romanes and all Catholike Churches embraced it further followeth that the Popes Supremacie was no materiall part of the Romane Faith or of any Catholikes either in Pope
Gregorie held a Purgatorie for some smaller faults PRO. He held not your Purgatorie his was onely for veniall and light faults yours is for such as have not fully satisfied for the temporall punishment due to their mortall sinnes Againe his differeth from yours in situation for you place yours in some quarter bordering on hell but Gregorie tells us of certaine soules that for their punishment were confined to Bathes and such other places here on earth Besides Gregorie in his Dialogues whence you would prove your Purgatorie tells many strange tales as of one Stephen a Priest who had the Devill so serviceable to him as to draw off his hose of Boniface that wanting money procured divers crownes of our Lady and such like stuffe insomuch that your Canus saith Gregorie in his Dialogues hath published such miracles commonly received and believed which the censurers of this Age will thinke to be doubtfull and uncertaine Besides Gregorie had his Purgatorie and Soule masses from visions and feigned apparitions of Ghosts which the Scripture holds unwarrantable And yet Gregorie upon occasion of that place of Ecclesiastes If the tree fall towards the South or the North where it falls there it shall bee makes another inference namely this The just one in the day of his death falleth South-ward and the sinner North-ward for the just by the warmth of the spirit is carried into blisse but the sinner with the revolting Angel in his benummed heart is reprobated and cast away And Olympiodore who lived about the yeare 500 makes the very same inference and Gregorie elswhere to the same purpose saith that at the time of a mans dissolution either the good or evill spirit recâ—ives the soule as it comes out of the cloyster of the body and there without any change at all for ever retaines it that being onâ—e exalted it can never come to be punished and being plâ—nged into eternall paine can never thence be delivered Now if according to these testimonies after death there be no deliverance but that the soule for ever remaines in that degree and order wherein death takes it if there be no change after this life such as the Papists imagine theirs to be from the paines of Purgatorie to the joyes of heaven surely then there can be no Purgatory nothing but heaven or hel whither they that come abide for ever Now let us see what Gregorie held touching the Supremacie PA. Gregorie maintained his Supremacie did hee not PRO. Whatsoever he did Stapleton strives to uphold it by corrupting a place in Gregorie who speaking of Saint Peter and other Apostles saith that they were all members of the Church under one Head meaning Christ as his owne words make it cleere Now Stapleton to make the Pope Head of the Church citeth the words thus They are all members of the Church under one head Peter shuffling in the name Peter but for Saint Gregorie hee knew not your moderne papall Supremacie and when the See of Constantinople challenged the stile of Vniversall Bishâ—p he opposed it PA. He might dislike it in another and yet claime it himsâ—lfe PRO. He disclaimed it in any whosoever Now so it was Iohn Bishop of Constantinople seeing the Emperors seate translated thither and other Provinces governed by Lievtenants as also Rome besieged by the Lumbards thought this a fit season for the advancement of his chayre that the Imperiall City should also have the highâ—st chayre in the Church as the Emperour counted himselfe Lord of the World so he would be stiled Oecumenicall or Vniversall Patriarke in the Church Now when Iohn affected this Title Gregorie complained not that he wrong'd his See by usurping that stile as if it had belonged to the Pope but hee mislikes the transcâ—â—dent power claymed by that stile and he calls it A stile of noveltie and prophannesse such as never any godly man nor any of his predecessors ever used A name of Blâ—sphemie A thing contrarie to the Churches Canons to Saint Peter and to the holy Gospels Yea he pronounceth any one that should presume to challenge the forâ—said title To be the very forâ—runner of Antichrist because herein hee lifts himselfe above his brethren PA. Gregorie forbore this Title in humilitie thereby to represse Iohns insolencie PRO. This is as if a King should renounce his Royall Title to the end that a Rebell challenging it might disclaime it Gregorie indeed was an humble man and as one saith of him When he was in his Iollitie and Pontificalibus hee was not so much delighted therewith as an Hermit was with his Cat that he used to play withall in his Cell Gregorie indeed professeth to bee humble in mind but still so as to preserve the honour of his place Gregorie would lose nothing of his freehold I warrant you PA. Gregorie found fault with this Title in the sense that Iohn desired so to be universall and sole Bishop and the rest to be his Vicars or Deputies PRO. It is not likely the Bishop of Constantinople though he were a proud man would keepe all others from being bishops that is that they should neither ordaine Priests nor excommunicate nor absolve nor sit in Counsell but himselfe alone doe all Besides if Iohn had sought this surely the Greeke Bishops who consented to Iohns title of being their universall Patriarcke in respect of Order though not of Iurisdiction would never have yeelded to have made themselues onely Vicars to that one bishop and so deprive themselves of al Episcopall Iurisdiction Yea the same bishops though they submitted themselves to the bishop of Constantinople and approved his Title yet notwithstanding they exercised their ancient Iurisdiction over their severall Sees they were not degraded by Iohn or his Successor Cyriacus both which affected that Title The true and undoubted meaning then of Gregorie as his words import was this namely that Gregorie by impugning the Title of Vniversall bishop would have no Bishop so principall as to make all others as members subject to his Head-ship and is not the charge of bishops at this day under the Papacie for the most part Tiâ—ular they being wholly at the Popes becke PA. Was the Title of Vniversall Bishop so odious PRO. It was in that sense which Gregory taxed in the bishop othâ—rwise neither he nor wee mislike such Vniveâ—sall bishops as with Saint Paul Have the care of all Churches and in this respect godly bishops when they meete in Councels and in their owne Diocesses whiles by their wholesome advice admonition or reproofe by their writing or teaching they instruct others in the truth prevent Schisme and stop the mouth of Heresie may be called Bishops of the Vniversall Church Thus was Athanasius called a Bishop of the Catholike Chuâ—ch not as it precisely signifieth Vnivâ—rsall but rightly beleeving or holding the Catholike Faith PA. What conclude you out of all this PRO.
with Haymo as indeed his Commentaries on Saint Pauls Epistles are in a manner all taken out of Haymo as Doctor Rivet hath observed It is the report of our Ancestors saith Walafridus Strabo that in the Primitive times they were wont according to Christs Institution to Communicate and partake of the Body and Bloud of our Lord even as many as were prepared and thought fit Regino describeth the manner of Pope Adrians delivering the Communion to King Lotharius and his followers in both kindes The King saith hee takes the Body and Bloud of our Lord at the hands of the Pope and so did the Kings Fallowers Paschasius saith These bee the Sacramentâ— of Christ in the Church Baptisme and Chrysme and the Body and Bloud of Christ and Rabanus hath the selfe same words Now with Baptisme they joyne Chrysme because they used to annoint such as were baptized for otherwise Rabanus speakes precisely of two saying What doe these two Sacraments effect and then hee answers That by the one we are borne anew in Christ and by the other Christ abides in us Of the Eucharist Rabanus saith Bread because it strengthneth the body is therefore called the Body and Wine because it maketh bloud is therefore referred to Christs bloud Haymo saith the same with Rabanus Rabanus farther saith That the Sacrament in one thing and the power thereof another the Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of the body by the vertue of the Sacrament we attaine â—ternall life Hee saith the Sacrament which is the Bread is turned into our bodily nourishment nâ—w spâ—cies shewes and accidents can not nourish but these latter words of Rabanus are razâ—d â—ut whereas the Monke of Malmesbury witnesses that Rabanus wrote accordingly as is alleaged and this razure is observed by the publisher of Mathew of Westminsters Historie Haymo calls the Eucharist A Memoriall of that Gift or Legacie which Christ dimised unto us at his Death Rabanus saith that Christ at first instituted the Sacrament of his Body and Bloud with blessing and thanksgiving and delivered it to his Apostles and they to their Successors to doe accordingly and that now the whole Church throughout the world observes this manner Christianus Druthmarus reporting our Saviours Act at his last Supper sayth Christ changed the bread into his body and the wine into his bloud Spiritually he speaks not of any change of substances Walafridus Strabo saith That Châ—ist delivered to his Disciples the Sacraments of his body and bloud in panis vini substantiâ in the substance â—f bread and Wine When Carolus Calvus the Emperour desired to compose some diffeâ—ences about the Sacrament then on â—oot he râ—quired Bertram a learned man of that Age tâ— deliver hâ—s jâ—dgement in that poynt Whether the body and bloud of Christ which in the Church is received by the mouth oâ— tâ—â— faithful be celebrated in a mystery or in the truth anâ— whether it be the same body which was borne of Mary Whereunto hâ— returnes this answer That the bread and the wine aâ—e tâ—â— body and bloud of Christ figuratively that This body is tâ—e pledge and the â—igure the other the very naturall bodie That for the substance of the Creatures that which they were before consecration the same are they also afterward That they are called the Lords body and bloud because they take the name of that thing of which thâ—y are a Sacrament That there is a great difference betwixt the mystery of the bloud and body of Christ which is taken now by the faithfull in the Church and that which was borne of the Virgin Mary All which he proves at large by Scriptures and Fathers Your wisedome most excellent Prince may perceive saith he that I have proved by the testimonies of holy Scriptures and Fathers that the bread which is called Christs body and the Cup that is called his bloud is a figure because it is a mysterie PA. I except against Bertram his booke is forbid to be read but by such as are licenced or purpose to conâ—ute him PRO. Bertram wrote of the body and bloud of Chrâ—st as Trithemius saith and by your Belgicke or Lâ—w Countrey Index Bertram is stiled Catholicke Now this Index was published by the King of Spaines commandment the Duke of Alva and first printed at Antwerp in the yeare 1571 and often since reprinted Now so it is howsoever he be accounted a Catholicke Priest and much commended by Trithemius yet are this Catholicks writings forbid to be read as appeares by severall Indices the one set forth by the Deputies of the Trent Councel and another printed at Parts under Clement the eight Now these Inquisitors dealt too roughly and therefore the divines of Doway perceiving that the â—orbidding of the booke kept not men from reading it but rather oâ—casioned them to seeke after it thought iâ— better policie that Bertram should be suffered to goe abroad but with his keeper to wit some popish glosse to wait on him Seeing therefore say they we beare with many errours in other old Catholicke writers and extenuate them excuse them by inventing some device oftentimes deny them and â—aine some commodious sense for them when they are objected in disputation with our adversaries we doe not see why Bertram may not deserve the same equitie and diligent revisall lesâ— the Herâ—ticks cry out that we burne and forbid such antiquity as maketh for them and accordingly they have dealt wiâ—h Bertram for by their Recognition We must reade Invisibiliter in stead of Visibiliter and these words The Substance of the Creatures must be expounded to signifie outward shewes or Accidents But this will not serve the turne for Bertram speaking of the consecâ—ated bâ—ead and wine saith that for the substance of the creatures they remaine the same after consecration that they were before Now if they doe so then is not the substance of bâ—ead and wine changed into the substance of the flesh and bloud of Christ as the Trent Councel would have it Nor will it serve to say that by the substance of the Creatures is meant the outward accidents as the whitenesse of the bread the colour of the wine or the like for Bertram speakes properly that the consecrated bread and wine remaine the same in substance And it were an improper speech to attribute the word Substance to Accidents as to say the substance of the colour or rednesse of the wine or the like PA. Master Brerely suspects that this booke was lately set forth by Oâ—colampadius under Bertrams name PRO. This suspicion is cleered by the antient Manuscript copies of Bertram extant before Occolampadius was borne one whereof that great Scholler Causabon saw in the Librarie of Master Iames Gilot a Burgesse of Paris as he witnessed to the Reverend and learned Primate Doctor Vsher. And yet besides these Mâ—nuscripts Bertram
signifying mysteryâ— rei veritas the truth of the thing as it is opposed to significans mysterium a signifying mystery simply excludes the reality of the thing for it is all one as if he had sayd that it is there onely in a signifying mystery as also in saying it is there suo modo after a sort onely he implieth that it is not there truely or in the truth of the thing visibly or invisibly So that these words of Gratian drawne from Saint Austin and Prosper seconded by the Glosse and inserted into the body of the Cannon law confirmed by Pope Gregorie the thirteenth make strongly against the reall presence of Christ's body under the Accidents of Bread and Wine as my learned friend Master Doctor Featly made it appeare in his first dayes Conference with Master Musket touching Transubstantiation Besides there were divers in this age who employed both their tongues and their pennes in defence of this truth Zacharias Chrysopolitanus saith that there were some perhaps many but hardly to bee discerned and noted that thought still as Berengarius did whom they then condemned scorning not a little the â—olly of them that say the appearing accidents of Bread and Wine after the conversion doe hang in the ayre or that the sences are deceived Rupertus saith It is not to be concealed that there are diverse though hardly to be discerned and noted which are of opinion and defend the same both by word and writing that the Fathers under the Law did eate and drinke the very Bread and Wine which wee receive in the Sacrament of the Altar And hee saith they grounded their opinion upon that of the Apostle 1 Cor. 10.3.4 They did all eate the same spirituall meate and did all drinke of the same spirituall drinke for they dranke of the spiritual rock that followed them and the rocke was Christ. and the same Rupert addeth that the Church tollerated this diversity of opinion touching the sacrament of the Eucharist for so he saith in his seaventh booke whence we may observe that forsomuch as the Fathers under the Law did eate of the same Christ in Manna that we doe in the Sacrament of the Supper and yet did not nor could not eate him carnally who was not then borne nor had flesh we also in our Sacrament can have no such fleshly communication with Christ as some imagine And whereas Bellarmine replyes that the Fathers received the same among themselves but not the same with us Christians he is controlled by Saint Austine who saith it was the same which we eate the corporall food indeed was diverse but the spirituall meate was the same they eate of the same spirituall meate Of Images and Prayer to Saint Nicetas Choniates a Greeke historian reports in the life and reigne of Isaac Angelus one of the Easterne Emperours that when Fredericke Emperour of the West made an expedition into Palestina the Armenians did gladly receive the Almaines because among the Almaines and Armenians the worshipping of Images was forbidden alike Claudius Sâ—yssell and Claudius Coussord both which wrote against the Waldenses reckon up this among the Waldensian errours that they denyed the placing of Images in Churches or worshipping of them Gratian saith that question is mooved whether the deceased doe know what the living heere on earth doe and withall he addeth how that the Prophet in the person of the afflicted Israelites saith Abraham our father is ignorant of us and Israell knoweth us not Esay 63 16. and hâ—rein Gratian followed Saint Austine who maketh the same inference upon that place of Scripture Gratians resolution in this point is farther layd downe by the Glosse in those termes Gratian mooveth a certaine incident question whether the dead know the things that are done in this world by the living and he answereth that they doe not and this he proveth by the authority of Esay viz. Esay 63.16 the Master of the Sentences saith It is not incredible that the soules of the Saints that delight in the secrets of Gods countenance in beholding the same see things that are done in the world below Hugo de Sancto victore leaveth it doubtfull whether the Saints doe heare our prayers or not and rejecteth that saying of Gregorie brought to prove that they doe qui videt videntem omnia videt omnia hee that seeth him who seeth all things seeth all things hee confesseth ingenuously saying I presume not to determin this matter â—arther than thus that they see so much as it pleaseth him whom they see and in whom they see what soever they see and he saith it is a hard taske to decide these points and withall thus debateth the matter Yea but thou wilt reply If they heare me not I doe but waste words in vâ—ine in making intercession unto them that doe neither heare â—nor understand Be it so Saints heare not the words of those that call unto them well nor is it pertinent to their blessed estate to be made acquainted with what is done on earth admit that they doe not heare at all doth not God therefore heare If he heare thee why art thou sollicitous then what they heare and how much they heare seeing it is most certaine that God heareth unto whom thou prayest he seeth thy humility and will reward thy pietie and devotion so that in effect Hugo makes it not any materiall thing or of necessity to pray unto Saints Rupertus upon those Words of our Saviour Whatsoever ye shall aske the Father in my Name he will give it yoâ— Iohn 16.22 saâ—th that it is the wholesome custome and Rule of the Catholicke Church to direct her prayers to God the Father through Iesus Christ our Lord because there is no other way nor passage but by him and againe we need no other chariot save onely the name of Iesus to carry and convey our prayers into heaven Claudius Seyssel saith the Waldenses held that it was in vaine to pray to the Saints and that it was superstition for to worship and adore them Of Faith and Merit SAint Bernard beleeved Iustification by Faith alone saying Let him beleeve in thee who justifiest the ungodly and being justified by Faith onely he shall have peace with God Rupertus saith that the obstinate Iew sleights the Faith of Iesus Christ which alone is able to justifie him and seekes to be saved by his owne workes Rupertus saith that God hath freely called us by the ministery of his Word unto the state of Salvation and justified us by the gracious pardon of our sinnes not upon any precedent merits of ours Saint Bernard likewise held as we have showne that our workes doe not merit condignely and herein he is most direct and punctuall The merits of men are not such saith he as that eternall life is due to them of right or as if God should doe wrong if he did not yeeld the same unto them
the Friars be not liegemen to the King ne subject to his lawes For though they stealen mens Children to enter into their orders it is sayd there goes no law upon them Friars saien apertly that if the King and Lords and other men stonden thus against their begging and other things Friars will goe out of the land and come againe with bright heads and looke whether this be treason or no Friart faynen that though an Abbot and all his Covent ben open traytours yet the king may not take from them an halfe penny Friars also destroyen the Article of Christian faith I beliefe a common or generall Church for they teachen that thâ— men that shall be damned be members of holy Church and thus they wedden Christ and the divel together Friars by hypocrisie binden men to impossible things that they may not doe for they binden them over the commandements of God as they themselves say Friars wast the treasure of the land forgetting Dispensations vaine pardons and priviledges But of the pardon that men usen to day fro the Court of Rome z they have no sikernes that is certainty by holy writ ne reason ne ensample of Christ or his Apostles By this we see that Wickliffe stoutly opposed those Innovatours the Friers who like their successours the Iesuites taught and practised obedience to another Soveraigne than the King persecution for preaching the Gospell exemption of Cleaâ—gy-men the use of Legends in the Church and reading of fables to the people pardons and indulgences the heresie of an accident without a subject singular and blind obedience and lastly workes of Supererogation Now whereas Wickliffe was reputed an Heretike it is likely that this imputation was laid upon him especially by Friars to whose innovations he was a professed enemy PAP Many exceptions are taken against Wickliffe and namely that hee held That God ought to obey the divell PROT. Our learned Antiquary of Oxford Doctour Iames hath made Wickliffes Apology and answered such slanderous objections as are urged by Parsons the Apologists and others Now for the objection made there is neither colour nor savour of truth in it there was no such thing objected to him in the Convocation at Lambeth neither can his adversaries shew any such words out of any booke written by Wickliffe although he wrote very many Indeed wee finde the quite contrary in his workes saith his Apologist for Wickliffe saith That the divel is clepid that is called Gods Angell for he may doe nothing but at Gods suffering and that he serveth God in tormenting of sinfull men The phrase indeed is strange and if either he or any of his Schollers used such speeches their meaning haply was that God not in his owne person but in his creatures yeeldeth obedience to the devill that is sometimes giveth him power over his creatures PAP Wickliffe taught That Magistrates and Masters are not to be obeyed by their subjects and servants so long as they are in deadly sinne PROT. Even as light House-wives lay their bastards at honest mens doores so you falsely father this â—is-begotten opinion on Wickliffe which some of your owne side say belongs to one Iohn Parvi a Doctour of Sorbone And indeed in right it is your owne inasmuch as you upon colour and pretence of heresie in Princes absolve subjects from their Allegeance and raise them up in armes against their lawfull Soveraigne witnesse your bloody massacres in France the death of the two last Henryes in France the untimely death of the Prince of Orange the many attempts and treasons against Queene Elizabeth as also that hellish designe of the Gun-powder treason But supppose Wickliffe said so yet his words might have a tollerable construction to wit that a Prince being in state of mortall sinne ceased to be a Prince any longer he ceased to be so in respect of any spirituall right or title to his place that he could pleade with God if he were pleased to take the advantage of the forfeiture but that in respect of men he had a good title still in the course of mundane justice so that whosoever should lift vp his hand against him offered him wrong Wickliffe indeede admonisheth the King and all other inferiour Officers and Magistrates as elsewhere he doth Bishops That he beareth not the sword in vaine but to doe the office of a King well and truely to see his Lawes rightly executed wherein if hee faile then he telleth him that he is not properly and truely a King that is in effect and operation which words are spoken by way of exhortation but so farre was hee from mutiny himselfe or perswading others to rebellion that never any man of his ranke for the times wherein he lived did more stoutly maintaine the Kings Supremacy in all causes as well as over all persons ecclesiasticall and civill against all usurped and forreine Iurisdiction and one of his reasons was this that otherwise he should not be King over all England but Regulus parvae partis a petty governour of some small parts of the Realme PAP Wickliffe taught that so long as a man is in deadly sinne he is no Bishop nor Prelate neither doth he consecrate or baptize PROT. If Wickliffe said so he sayd no more than the Fathers and a Councell said before him Saint Ambrose saith Vnlesse thou embrace and follow the good-worke of a Bishop a Bishop thou canst not be The Provinciall Councell saith Whosoever after the order of Bishop or Priesthood shall say they have beene defiled with mortall sinne let them be remooved from the foresaid orders The truth is Wickliffe lived in a very corrupt time and this made him so sharpely inveigh against the abuses of the Cleargy but abusus non tollit rei usum and yet Wickliffe writeth against them that will not honour their Prelats And hee elsewhere expresseth his owne meaning that it is not the name but the life that makes a Bishop that if a man have the name of a Prelate and doe not answere the reason thereof in sincerity of doctrine and integrity of life but live scandalously and in mortall sinne that he is but a nomine-tenus Sacerdos a Bishop or Priest in name not in truth Neverthelesse his ministeriall Act may be availeable for thus saith Wickliffe Vnlesse the Christian Priest be united unto Christ by grace Christ cannot be his Saviour nec sine falsitate â—icit verba sacramentalia Neither can he speake the Sacramentall words without lying licèt prosint capacibus Though the worthy receiver be hereby nothing hindred from grace PAP Wickliffe held that it was not lawfull for any Ecclesiasticall persons to have any temporall possessions or property in any thing but should begge PROT. This imputation is untrue for what were the lands and goods of Bishops Cathedrall Churches or otherwise belonging to Religious houses which were given Deo Ecclesiâ— were they
acts of pietie and devotion without these frivolous Additions Gabriel Biel in his Lectures upon the Canon of the Masse saith That the Saints in Heaven by their naturall knowledge which is the knowledge of things in their proper kinde know no Prayers of ours that are here upon earth neither mentall nor vocall by reason of the immoderate distance that is betwixt us and them Secondly That it is no part of their essentiall beatitude that they should see our prayers or our other actions in the eternall word and thirdly That it is not altogether certaine whether it doe appertaine to their accidentall felicity to see our Prayers At length he concludeth That it may seeme Probable that although it doe not follow necessarily upon the Saints beatitude that they should heare our Prayers of congruitie yet it may seeme probable that God revealeth unto them all those suits which men present unto them By this we see that for the maine Gabriel concludeth that the Saints with God doe not by any power of their owne by any naturall or evening knowledge whatsoever understand our prayers mentall or vocall they and we are dâ—sparted so farre asunder as there can not bee that relation betweene us so that wee might haply call and they not bee Idonei auditores not at hand to heare us Now as learned Master Mountague now Lord Bishop of Chichester saith The Saints their naturall or evening knowledge onely is that which wee must trust unto as being a lonely in their power to use and to dispose and of ordinary dispensation In a word Peter Lombard saith It is not incredible that the soules of Saints heare the prayers of the suppliants Biel saith as we have heard That it is not certaine but it may seeme probable that God reveleth unto Saints all those suits which men present unto them here is nothing but probability and uncertainâ—y nothing whereon to ground our praying to Saints Of Iustification and Merits Trithemius the Abbot who lived in this age complaines that Aristotle and the heathen Philosophers were oftner alleadged in the Pulpit than Saint Peter and Saint Paul and therefore hee disswades his friend Kymolanus from too much study of profane sciences Let us saith hee seeke after true and heavenly wisedome which consisteth in faith onely in our Lord Iesus Christ working by love Cardinall Cusanus in a treatise of his De pace fidei brings in Dialogue-wise Saint Peter and Saint Paul instructing the severall nations of the world Greekes and Arabians the French and the Almanies Tartarians and Armenians and there in that conference hee laboureth to bring them to an agreement In pace fidei in the unity of faith and amongst other things he proves at large That wee are justified only by faith in Christ and not by any merit of our owne workes The doctriâ—e of free Iustification is excellently handled by Savonarola in his meditations upon the fiftieth Psalme which Possevine acknowledgeth to be composed by him whiles hee was in durance the day before hee was led to the stake Vpon occasion of those woâ—ds of the Psalmist They gat not the land in possâ—ssion through their owne sword neither was it their oâ—ne arme that helped them but thy right hand and thine arme and the light of thy countenance because thou hadst a favour unto them Psalm 4â— ver 3.4 â—e sweetly commâ—nteth on this sort Thou â—avâ—uredst them that iâ— they were not saved by their owne merits or workes lâ—st they should glory thâ—â—ein but even because of thy goâ—d will and pleâ—sure Vpon occasion of that Petition of the Lords prayer Forgive as our trespasses hee renounceth all merit of his owne workes and professeth in the words of the Pâ—ophet Esay That all our righteousnesse is as the rags of a menstruous woman Picus Mirandula treating on the same Petition saith it is certaine that wee are not saved for our owne merits but by the onely meâ—cy of our God Gerson taught that wee are not justified by the perfection of any inherent qualitie that all our inherent righteousnesse is imperfect yea that it is like the polluted rags of a menstruous woman that it cannot endure the triall of Gods severe judgement even Esay himselfe with the rest became vile in his owne eyes and pronounceth this lowly confession all our righteousnesse is as filthy rags The Cardinall of Cambray proveth by many reasons and authorities of Scripâ—uâ—e That no act of ours from how great charity soever it proceed can merit eternall life of condignity And whereas God is said to give the kingdome of hâ—aven for good merits or good workes the Cardinall for clearing hereof delivereth us this distinction That the word Propter or for is not to be taken Causally as if good workes were the efficient cause of the reward as fire is the cause of heate but improperly and by way of consequence noting thâ— order of oâ—e thing following oâ— another signifying that the reward is given after the good worke and not but after it yet noâ— for it so that a meritorious act is said to be a cause in respect of the rewâ—rd as Causa sine quâ— non also is said to be a caâ—se though it be no cause properly Thomas Walden professeth plainely his dislike of that saying That a man by his merits is worthy of the kingdome of heaven of this grace or that glory hoâ—sâ—ever certaine schoole-men that they might so spâ—ake had invented the termes of Condignity and Congruity But I repute him saith he the sounder Divine the more faithfull Catholike and more consonant with the holy Scriptures who doth simply deny such merit and with the qualification of the Apostle and of the Scriptures confesseth that simply no man meriteth the kingdome of heaven but by the grace of God or will of the Giver as all the former Saints untill the late Schoole-men and the Vniversall Church hath written Out of which words of Waldens wee may further observe saith the learned and Right Reverend Doctor Vsher Arch-bishop of Armagâ— both the time when and the persons by whom this innovation was made in these later dayes of the Church namely that the late Schoole-men were they that corrupted the ancient doctrine of the Church and to that end devised their new termes of the merit of Congruity and Condignity Paulus Burgensis expounding those words of David Psal. 36.5 Thy mercy O Lord is in heaven or reacheth unto the heavens writeth thus No man according to the common Law can merit by condignity the glory of heaven Whence the Apostle saith in the 8. to the Romans that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the future glory which shall be revealed in us And so it is manifest that in heaven most of all the mercy of God shineth forth in the blessed I will close up this point as also this age with that memorable
saying of Ernestus Arch-bishop of Magdeburg lying on his death-bed some five yeares befoâ—e Luther shewed himselfe It is witnessed by Clement Schaâ— Chaplaine to the said Arch-bishop and one who was present at his death that a Frier Minor used this speech to the Archbishop Take a good heart most worthy Prince wee communicate to your excellencie all the good workes not onely of our selves but our whole order of Frier Minors and therefore doubt not but you receiving them shall appeare before the tribunall Seate of God righteous and blessed Whereunto the Arch-bishop replyed By no meanes will I trust upon my owne workes or yours but the workes of Christ Iesus alone shall suffice upon them will I repose my selfe THE SIXTEENTH CENTVRIE From the yeare of Grace 1500. to 1600. Of Martin Luther PAPIST WHat say you of this sixteenth Age PROTESTANT We are now by Gods assistance come to the period of time which was agreed upon in the beginning of our conference to wit to the dayes of Martin Luther for about the yeare of Grace 1517 hee beganne to teach and Preach against Indulgences And withall I have produced a Catalogue of our professours unto this present sixteenth Centurie PA. Stay your selfe you must saith Master Brerely show us your professours during the twentie yeares next before Luther PRO. It is done already for besides our English Martyrs we have produced Trithemius the Abbot and Savonarola both which lived within the time mentioned and held with us the Article of free Iustification and Savonarola howsoever the matter be otherwise coloured was burnt for Religion in the yeare 1498. Besides there have beene in all Ages and in the time mentioned such as held the substantiall Articles of our Religion both in the Roman and Greeke Church and by name the Grecians in common with us have openly denyed the Popes Supremacie Purgatorie private Masses Sacrifices for the dead and defended the lawfulnesse of Priests marriage Likewise in this Westerne part of the world the Schollers of Wickliffe called Lollards in England the Taboâ—ites in Bohemia and Waldenses in France maintained the same doctrine in substance with our moderne Protestants as appeareth by a Confession of the Waldensian Faith set forth about the yeare of Grace 1508 which was within the time prefixed Neither did these whom we have produced dissemble their Religion but made open profession thereof by their Writings Confessions and Martyrdomes as also their just Apologies are extant to cleere them from the Adversaries imputation PA. I thought Luther had beene the first founder of your Religion for there bee some of your men who call him the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine PRO. Luther broached not a new Religion he onely drained and refined it from the Lees and dregs of superstition he did not forme or found a new Church which was not in being but onely reformed and purged that which he found from the soilâ— of errours and disorders When Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiah's time found out the booke of God he was thereby a meanes to bring to light what the wicked proceedings of Manasses Amon and others had for a season smothered and so did Luther he was the instrument whom God used for the farther enlightning his Church and yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion than upon the former that Hiâ—kiah first preached the Law The Protestants Church by Luthers meanes began no otherwise in Germanie than health begins to be in a body that was formerly sicke and overcharged and now recovered So that in respect of doctrine necessary to salvation the Church in her Firme members as Saint Austine speakes was the same before Luther and afterwards and it began to be by his meanes onely according to a greaâ—er measure of knowledge and freedome from such corruptions as formerly like ill humours oppressed it and oveâ—charged it The Proâ—estants Church then is the same with all good and sound Christians that lived before them and succeedeth the sound members of the visible Chuâ—ch that kept the life of true Religion in the substantiall matters of Faith and Godlinesse though otherwise those times were daâ—kened with a thicke mist of errours Now whereas some call Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine they did not therâ—by intend that he was the fiâ—st that ever preached the dâ—ctrine of the râ—formed Churches for they could not be ignorant that after Christ and his Apostles and the Fathers of the first five Ages Bertram and Aâ—lfricke and Berenger Peter Bruis and Henry of Tholouse Dulcinus and Anâ—ldus and Lollardus Wickliffe Husse Hierome of Pragâ—e and others stood for the same truth which we professe but their meaning was that Luther was the first who in their Age and memorie publickly and succesfully set on foot a generall reformation of the Church in these Westerne parts And thus in a tollerable sense Luther may bee called the first Apostle of the Reformation though not simply the first that preached the Protestants doctrine Americus Vesputius is reported to have discovered the West Indies or America and withall beares the name thereof and yet Christopher Columbus discovered it before him Bishop Iewell saith that in Luthers dayes in the midst of the darknesse of that Age there first began to shine some glimmeâ—ing beame of truth his meaning is not that the truth was then first revealed but that by Luthers mâ—anes it was manifested in a fuller measure and degree of lâ—ght and knowledge than it was in the fâ—rmer and daâ—ker times of Poperie yea he giveth pâ—rticular instance of true professours that were before Luther namely Saint Hilarie Gregory Bernard Pauperes de Lugduno the â—ishops of Greece and Asia as also Valla Marsilius Petrarch Savonarola and others PA. Did Luther himselfe acknowledge he had any predecessors or fore-runners PRO. I answer with my worthy and learned friend Doctor Featly that Luther acknowledged the Waldenses termâ—d fratres Pigardi as appeares by his Preface before the Waldension Confession I found saith hee in these men a miracle almost unheard of in the Popish Church to wit that these men leaving the doctrines of men to the utmost of their endeavour meditated in the Law of God day and night and were very ready and skilfull in the Scriptures whereas in the Papacie the greatest Clerkes uâ—terly neglected the Scriptures I could not but congratulate both them and us that wee were together brought into one sheepfold Of Iohn Husse and Hiâ—rome of Prague he saith They burned Iohn Husse and Hierome both Catholike men they being themselves Heretikes and Apostates and in his third Preface hee saith hee hath heard from men of credit that Maximilian the Emperour was wont to say of Iohn Husse Alas alas they did that good man wrong And Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed lying yet by me writeth That Husse indeed was condemned and burned but not convicted PA. To
amisse and not to prosecute Luther but this Councel was not followed wherupon divers parts according to Gersons Councel began this worke of Reformation so much desired by all good men howsoever opposed by the pope and his adherents PA. A Reformation presupposeth that things were amisse will you charge the Catholicke Church with errour PRO. Wee say that particular Churches and such is that of Rome may erre and divers have erred Sixtus Senensis reckons up many Fathers that held the Millenary errour mistaking that place in the Revelation 20.5 They said that there should be two Resurrections the first of the godly to live with Christ a thousand yeares on earth in all wordly happinesse before the wicked should awake out of the sleepe of death and after that thousand yeares the second Resurrection of the wicked should bee to eternall death and the godly should ascend to eternall life this errour continued almost two hundred yeares after it began before it was condemned for an heresie and was held by so many Church-men of great account and Martyrs that Saint Augustine and Ierome did very modestly dissent saith the same Senensis The opinion of the necessity of Infants receiving the Sacrament of the Lords body and blood as well as Baptisme did possesse the minds of many in the Church for certaine hundreds of yeares as appeareth by that which Saint Austine writeth of it in his time and Hugo de Sancto victoâ—e many hundred of yeares after him Were there not also superstition and abuses in the primitive Churches did not a Councell forbid those night vigils which some Christians then used at the graves of the Martyrs in honour of the deceased Saints and are not these Vigils now abolished Doth not Saint Aâ—stine confesse there were certaine Adoratores sepulchrâ—rum â—t picturarum worshippers of tombes and pictures in the Church in his time and doth not the same Father taxe them for it To come to later times Thomas Bradwardine complayned That the whole world almoâ—t was gone after Pelagius into errour arise therefore O Lord saith hee and judge thine owne cause Gregorius Ariminensis saith That to affirme that man by his naturall strength without the speciall helpe of God can doe any vertuous action or morally good is one of the damned heresies of Pelagius or if in any thing it differ from his heresie it is further from truth The same Gregory saith The heresies of Pelagius were taught in the Church and that not by a few or them meane men but so many and of so great place that hee almost feared to follow the doctrine of the Fathers and oppose himselfe against them therein Cardinall Contaren saith That there were some who pretended to be Catholikes and opposite to Luther who whiles they laboured to advance free-will too high they detracted too much from the free-grace of God and so became adversaries to the greatest lights of the Church and friends to Pelagius It is not strange then that weâ— say there hath beene a defection not onely of Heretikes from the Câ—urch and faithâ— but also in the Church of her owne children from the sincerity of faiâ—h dâ—livered by Christ and his Apostles not for that all or the whole Church at any time did forsake the true faith but for that many fell from it according to that of Saint Paul 1. Tim. 4.1 In the last times some shall depart from the faith attâ—nding to spirits of errour Besides such a famine of the word as fell out in these later times must needs have brought in corruption in doctrine and this was it that called for Reformation For in sundry ages last past the Roman Church hath behaved her selfe more like a step-dame then a naturall mother insomuch as shee hath deprived her children of a principall portion of the food of life the word of God her publike readings and service were in an unknowne tongue the holy Scriptures were closed up that people might not cast their eyes upon them fabulous Legends were read and preached insteed of Gods word but as Claudius Espencaeus a Doctor of Paris a bitter enemy to Bâ—za and therefore more worthy of credit in this bâ—halfe saith Our Ancestors as devoutly affâ—cted to the Saints as we thought is not fit that the rehearsall of the Saints lives should shoulder out the bookes of the old and new Testament and the reading thereof And hereby it came to passe as one of their owne Authors saiâ—h That the greater number of people understood no more concerning God and things divine in particular and distinct notions then Infidels or heathen people And here in England there was such a dearth of the word in these later times of popeâ—y that some gave five markes some more some lesse for an English booke some gave a load of hay for a few Chapters of Saint Iames or of Saint Paul in English Was it not now high time to reforme these things but Rome would neither acknowledge her errours nor reâ—orme them but rather sought to defend them persecuting such as by authority established laboured this reformation How easie and safe had it beene for Rome had shee tendered the peace of Christendome to have according as the truth required permitted the uâ—e of the Cup as sometime the Councell of Basil allowed it to the Bohemians and the publike service of God in a knowne language as was sometimes granted to the Slavons as also to have abolished the worship of Imâ—ges and the like without which the Church wâ—s and that very well for a long time But Rome would not yeeld in one point lest shee should bee suspected to have erred in the rest and therely the Infallibility of the Roman Oracle the Pope bee called in question PA. That which is reformed remaines the same in substance that it was before And therefore the Catholike Religion and the substantiall exercise thereof should have remayned in England upon the Reformation but you have set up another Religion PRO. We doe not say that the Catholike Religion is reformed for that cannot bee amended but that wee have reformed Religion in that we have purged it from certaine devises and corruptions which had crept into it Before this reformation Religion was like to a certaine lumpâ— or masâ—e consisting partly of gold aâ—d partly of other refuse mettall and drosse to a sicke body wherein besides the flesh blood and bones and vitall spirits there were also divers naughty humours that had surprised the body our reformation tooke not away your gold to wit those fundamentall truths wherein you agree with us but purged it from the drosse it drew not the good blood from the body but onely purged out the pestilent humour so that we have retained whatsoever was sound Catholike and primitively ancient onely those things that were patched to the ground-soles of Religion that wee have pared away as superfluous wee have not removed the ancient land-markes
but only cast downe some encroachments and improvements of poperie wee have no more erâ—cted a new faith in respect of the substance and essentials thereof than that zealous reformer Iosia built a new materiall Temple when hee cast out the Idols and Idolatrous worship out of the Lords house There is no other difference betwixt the Reformed and the Romish Church then betwixt a field well weeded and the same field formeâ—ly overgrowne with weeds or betwixt a heape of corne now well winnowed and the same heape lately mixed with chaffe And if it be a vaine and frivolous thing to say it is not the same field or the same corne as vaine and frivolous is it to say the Church is not the same it was or in the same place after it is swept and cleansed of the filth and dust or to say the Churches of Corinth and Galatia after their reformation occasioned by Saint Pauls writing were new Churches and not the same they were before because that in them before the Resurrection was denied Circumcision practisâ—d discipline neglected and Châ—isâ—s Apostles contemned which things now are not found in them or to say Naaman was not still the same person because before hee was a Leper and now is cleansed PA. If our Romane Church were so corrupt whence then had you the truth what you had you received from us PRO. Saint Austine saith that the Iewes were to the Christians Library-keepers of the bookes of the Law and the Prophets and might not the Romanists performe the like office to the Protestants The Iewish Church what time it was unsound preserved the Scriptureâ—Canon and by transcribingâ— and reading the same delivered the whole text therof trâ—ly to others And thus the Roman Church though in many things unsound preserved the bookes of holy Scripture and taught the Apostles Câ—eed with sundry parts of divine truth gathered from the same and by these principles of Christianitie preserved in that Church judicious and godly men might with study and diligence finde out what was the first delivered Christian doctâ—ine in such things as were necessary to salvation And herein was Gods gracious providence sâ—ene that even that Church wherein Luther himselfe received his Christianitie Ordination and power of Ministerie should for the benefit of Gods children preserve the Word and Sacraments and deliver them over to us though somewhat corruptly by their adding more Sacraments than ever Christ ordained and abusing those which we retaine with divers unwarrantable rites and Ceremonies In a word we received from you some truth mingled with errour wee have pared away your corruption as a worme out of an Apple and retained the wholsome and substantiall truth PA. Was there any Chucrh in being save our Roman Catholick in thâ— Ages next before Luther if so show uâ— where it was and with whom it held Communion PRO. When Christ came first into the World the Iewish Church was corrupted both in doctrine and manners this Church had in it Scribes and Pharisees as well as Zachary and Elizabeth Ioseph and Mary Simeon and Anna with others these were all of the same outward Communion with the Priesthood for they resorted to the Temple there they prayed and performed such holy rites as God himselfe enjoyned untill they heard farther of the Gospel by Christs manifestation Now I demand were not Ioseph and Mary and such good people â—ound members of Gods Church although the Scribes and Pharisees bore all the sway in the Church and had the Priesthood the word and Sacraments in their dispensing yet even then God had a Remnant of holy people which made up his Church though others went under the name thereof and exceeded them in number Now with these the sound part kept an outward Communion yet did not partake in all their erronious doctrines but condemned their grosser errours In like sort we were all of one outward Communion of one Church wherin salvation was and yet we shared not in those errours which a faction in the Church like the Pharisees of old maintained For as learned Dr. Field saith The errours which wee condemne at this day whereupon the difference groweth betweene us and the Romish faction were never generally received nor constantly delivered as the doctrines of the Church but doubtfully disputed and proposed as the opinions of some men in the Church not as the resolved determinations of the whole Church For had they beene the undoubted doctrines and determinations of the Church all men would have holden them entirely and constantly as they held the doctriâ—e of the Trinity and other Articles of the Faith And I have already showne from age to age that the errours condemned by us never found generall allowance and constant consent in the dayes of our fathers but that some worthy guides of Gods Church ever opposed them And thus was our Church preserved under the Papacie as wheaâ—e is among tares for wee were formerly mingled together like corne and chaffe in one heape until the time of Reformation came and winnowed our wheat from the chaffe of Poperie So that howsoever divers under the Papacie not brooknig Reformation maintained sundry erronious opinions Yet there were other worthies who living within that Communitie were not equally poysoned with errour but firmely beleeved all fundamentall truth and delivered the maine Articles of Christianitie over unto others For Answer then to the Question Where had our Church her being in the Ages next before Luther we say It was both within the Romane Church and without it For as learned Doctor Chaloner saith Our Church had in those dayes a twofold Subsisâ—encie â—he one Separate from the Church of Rome the other Mixt and conjoyneâ— with it Separate so it was in the Albâ—genses and Waldenses a peâ—ple whoâ— so soone as the Chuâ—ch of Rome had inteâ—preted her selfe touching sundry of those maine poynts of dâ—ffâ—rence betweene us and that a man could no lâ—nger Communicate with her in the publicke worship of God by reâ—son of soâ—e Idolatrous rites and customes which shâ— had establishâ—dâ— arose in France Savâ—y and the places neere adjoyning and professed the same substantiall Negatives and Affirmatives which we doe in a state Sepaâ—atâ— from the Church of Rome having Pastours and Congregations apart to themselves even unto this day From these descended the Wicklefisâ—s in England and the Hussites in Germanie and oâ—hers in other Countries who Maâ—gre the â—urie of fire and Sword maintained the same doctrine as they did The state of the Church mixt and conjoyned with the Church of Rome it selfe consisted of those who making no visible separation from the Roman profession as not perceiving the mysterie of iniquity which wrought in it did yet mislike the grosser errours and desired a Reformation To answer then the quâ—stion directly where was the Prâ—testants Church before Luthers time that is where was any Church in the world that taught that doctrine which the Protestants now teach â—
at Aâ—twerpe Anno 1576. at Paris Anno 1586. at Coleine Ann. 1616. but no such place was there to be found the Divines of Lovaine had taken a course with them and suppressed these testimonies but by good hap I met with them in the Basil Edition Anno 1569. Object Those whom you have named in your Catalogue were originally Catholikes and not Protestants Wickliâ—fe and Husse were Catholike Priests and Luther was an Augustine Frier you cannot name such as were Protestants originally they came forth of our Church Answer Whence I pray you sprang Christs Apostles were they not taken out of the Iewish Church at that time much corrupted S. Paul speaking of himselfe and the service of his God saith Whom I doe serve from my progenitors meaning Abraham Isaac and Iacob the first Fathers of the faithfull for as for S. Pauls immediate predecessors it is likely that they relished of the leven of the Pharisees It can be no more prejudice to our Church that Luther Wickliffe aâ—d Husse were originally Papists than to S. Paul that he was originally a Pharisee or to S. Austine that he was orinally a Manichee or to our Ancestors at the first conversion of our land that they were originally heathen or to all true Converts that they were originally unregenerate For as Tertullian saith Fiunt non nascuntur Christiani We are not borne Christians but we become Christians Neither is it true that wee can name none of our Church that were not originally Papists For Farellus and the Waldensian Ministers for more than 400. yeares were not originally Papists though Waldo himselfe was Besides the Fathers for 600 yeares and the Monkes in Britaine at Augustines comming were not originally Papists In the Greeke Church from 700. to 700 afterwards many thousands held as wee doe in all fundamentals who never were originally Papists nor millions of others in the Easterne Churches and namely in the Greeke Church there have bene from 700. to 700. afterwards many thousands which held as we doe in all fundamentals and never were originally Papists Lastly the like argument might be urged against all that embraced Reformation in Iosias dayes that they originally were involved in the common errors and Idolatry of the Iewish Church Likewise that Zachary and Elizabeth and Simeon and Anna and the Apostles were originally deduced from that Church which held many errors concerning the temporall kingdome of the Messias and divorces for other causes than adultery c. Which errors Christ and his Apostles reproved In England and most parts of the world the first Christians were originally Paynims and Idolaters what prejudice is that to Christianity or advantage to Heathenisme Object Your Churches professors mentioned in your Catalogue wanted lawfull succession Answer There is a two-fold succession the one lineall and locall the other doctrinall this of doctrine is the life and soule of the other Irenaeus describeth those which have true succession from the Apostles To bee such as with the succession of the Episcopall office have received the câ—rtâ—ine grace of tâ—uth and this kind of succession hee calleâ—h the principâ—ll succession Gregory Nazianzen having said that Atâ—anasius succeeded Saint Marke in godlinesse addeth That this succession in godlinesse is properly to be accounted succâ—ssion for he that holdeth the same doctrine is also pâ—rtaker of the same throne but he that is against the doctrine must be reputed an adversary even while hâ—e sitteth in the throâ—e but the former hath the thing it selfe and the truth so that according to Irenaeus and Nazianzâ—n succession in doctrinâ— suâ—ficeth yea Nazianzen as we have heard makes it all one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so that he which holds the same truth of doctrinâ— may bee said to sit in the same Chaire of succession Besides wee are able to shew succession also in place for â—ive hundred yeares in most parts of Christendome and since that in the Greeke Church untill this day and in the Latine Church from the time of Waldo in France Bohemia and other places And for the Church of England the lineall succession of her Bishops is showne particularly by Mr. Francis Mason de ministerio Anglicano Mr. Goodwin in his Catalogue of the Bishops of England and Mr. Isaacson in his Chronologicall Table of the succession of the Bishops of England PA. Name in the space of a thousand yeares next before Luther three knowne and confessed Protestant Bishops succeeding each to other and if you had such expresse their agreement with you in the maine points controverted betweene us PRO. This demand was eagerly pressed upon me by a Romish Priest but the Stone which he hurled at mee not comming forth of Davids sling recoiles upon himselfe like the stone that Achilles flung at a dead skull which â—ebounded backe and strucke out the slingers eyeâ— Redijt lapis ultor ab osse Actorisque suifrontem oculâ—squè petit For I would in like manner demand of him to name three knowne and confessed Popish Bishops succeeding each other who maintained the worship of Images before the second Councell of Nice or that beleeved Transubstantiation before the Roman Councell under Pope Nicholasâ— or that avowed the dry and halfe Communion before the Councell at Constance under Martin the fift or that held the effect of the Sacraments to depend upon the Priests intention before the Councell at Florence or defined the Pope to be above a Generall Councell before the Councell of Lateran under Leo the tenth or that determined the twelve new Articles of Pius the fourth his Creed to be all de Fide and necessary to salvation before the Councell of Trent Besides there is no necessitie of naming three Bishops succeeding each other and opposing Poperie It sufficeth to name such as opposed it tho they sate not successively in the same Chaire for all Romish errors and superstitions rushed not in at once into the Church but by degrees now such as held the fundamentals with us and opposed any one error or more when they were first espied to creepe into the Church they were Protestants though they went not then under that name Now according to this account of Protestants wee can produce many more than three Bishops succeeding each other who in their times made head against Romish usurpations and superstitions for instance sake S. Austine and with him two hundred and seventeene Bishops of Africa and their successors for a hundred yeares together if their owne Records be true opposed the Popes supremacie in point of Appeales To speake nothing of the innumerable Bishops in the Easterne Churches and the Habassines and Muscovites and elsewhere succeeding each the other for many hundred yeares differing in no fundamentall point from Protestants and keeping no quarter at all with the Pope or See of Rome when Austine the Monke was sent into England by Gregory the Great the most ancient British and Irish Bishops withstood the Popes authority and ordinances stifly adhering to the Churches
by the shew of old sacks old bottles old shoes old bread that was mouldie as if they had come a farre off whereas they dwelt but hard by in like sort you put on a visour of antiquity but once search the ground thereof and draw aside this maske and then your tenets appeare to be but noveltie in comparison of primitive antiquity for as Tertullian saith That is true which is first and that false which is later In a word we are no Innovators but Reformers we doe not professe any Religion new made but a religion reformed and refined so that wee may say with the Christian Poet Haec novitas non est novitas sed vera vetustas Relligio et Pietas Patrum instaurata resurgit Quod tua corrupit levitas et nota tuorum Segnities igitur si quis labentia tecta Erigat et sterilem qui mansuefecerit agrum Iudice te damnandus erit It is no novell thing wee preach But such as ancient Fathers teach The truth which former Popes conceal'd Doth now begin to be reveal'd Must he be blamed that repaires The ruin'd Church and weed's out tares And thus have our Reformers done And they for this must be undone It is true then that the good seed was first fowne by the Apostles and fructified in the Church generally for 60. yeares afterwards the Enemie supâ—r-seminavit zizania he resowed the tares which in part were weeded out by Waldo Wickliffe and Husse but more universally and publikely by Luther Calvine and others so that wee have not sowne any tares upon the Churches gleabe land but onely weeded out such as were sowne by others in the dead of the night in the time of ignorance not whilst the Husbandman himselfe slept For hee which keepeth Israel neither slumbereth nor sleepeth but cum dormirent homines whiles men slept that is the overseers of the Vineyard grew carelesse and negligent And thus might tares be sowne though the time and â—eedsman were not knowne for it is confessed by your Trent-â—athers That many things through the fault of times or the negligence and wickednesse of men have seemed to have crept in to the Masse which are repugnant to the dignity of so great a sacrifice and yet they cannot tâ—ll when these abuses crept in nor by whose default And thus by Gods assistance I have finished the taske which I undertooke having named out of good Auâ—hors a Catalogue of such professours as taught for substance as the Church of England doth and withall cleered the Catalogue of our professours from such exceptions as the adversarie hath made against them and in producing this evidence I have as hee speakes in Iob 8.8 enquired of the former ages and made search of their Fathers and have dealt as Ioseph's steward did when he made search for his masters Cup He began at the eldest and left at the youngest and the Cup was found in Benjamin's Sacke Gen. 44.12 we have begun with the former ages passed along the middle and descended unto Benjamin's even to the later ages abutting on Martin Luther's time and have found even with these younger ages the Cup that wee sought for to wit A Protestants Church visible and conspicuous And now having I hope satisfied your demand Where was our Church before Luther I would require the like of you namely to show if you can out of good Authours I will not say any Empire or Kingdome but any Citie Parish or Hamlet within five hundred yeares next after Christ in which there was any visible assembly of Christians to be named maintaining and defending either your Trent Creed in generall or these points of Poperie in speciall to wit 1. That there is a treasurie of Saints Merits and super-abundant satiâ—factions at the Popes disposing 2. That the Laitie are not commanded by Christs Institution to receive the Sacrament of the Lords Supper in both kinds 3. That the publicke Service of God in the Church ought or may be celebrated in an unknowne tongue 4. That private Masses wherein the Priest saith Edite bibite ex hoc omnes eate and drinke ye all of this and yet eateth and drinketh himselfe onely bee according to Christs Institution 5. That popes pardons are requisite or usâ—full to release soules out of purgatorie 6. That extreame unction is a Sacrament properly so called 7. That we may worship God by an Image 8. That the pope cannot erre in matters of Faith Shew us now if you can or any Papist in the world that these points above named which are maine points with you inasmuch as you account the denyers thereof Hereticks shew us I say that they were generally and constantly held for Catholick Church tenets in the first five hundred yeares next after Christ which is the very flower of primitive antiquitie But of these matters since this present conference is enlarged beyond my expectation at our next meeting if you please Meane time and ever the Lord of his mercie direct us in his owne wayes In the old way which is the god way as the prophet cals it Ierem. 6.16 and call home such as wilfully or by igâ—orance have gone astray that at length they may be brought to that One Shepherd and that One Sheepe fold of Christ Iesus to whom with his Father and the blessed Spirit be praise for evermore Amen FINIS Approbatio Censoris PErlegi hunc Librum cui titulus The Protestants Evidence c. Quem quonià m doctum judico et in palaestrâ Theologiae versatis utilissimum typis mandari permitto THO WEEKES D. P. D. Episc. Lond. Cap. Domest Genâ—sâ—â— 3.34 Ierem. 6 1â— a Hosea 7.8 b Populaâ— Israel non solum fâ—it infâ—ctuâ— Idololatriâ Ieroboam sed Idololatrijs Gentilium existentiuÌ„ circa populum Israel Lyra in loc Galath 2.9 2 Sam. 3 39. Prov. 27. v. 6. Iudg 14.18 1 Sam. 13.10 * â—ardius enascitur seris umbram factura Nâ—potibus Cupressus a Prot. Apolog. Tract 3. chap. 2. sect 2. p. 330. b Testes res omnes reculae nullam in orbe religionem nisi nostram imis unquam radicibus insedisse Camp rat 10. c Seculis omninò quindecim non oppidum non villam non domum reperiunt imbutam doctrinâ— suâ id rat 3. d Constat manifestè nemineÌ„ toâ—o oâ—be mortalium ante M. Lutherum hoc est anâ—e annuÌ„ 1517 〈◊〉 qui eam fidem tenâ—râ—t Coster Eâ—châ—â—id Coâ—trovers cap. 2. c Bristowes Motivâ—s Presat Motive 45. f Romaniâ—ellarm â—ellarm lib. 3. de Eâ—cleâ— cap. 2. g In Sole id estâ— in maniâ—estatione Aug. tâ—m 7. cont litâ— Petil. l. 2. cap 32. h Soâ—t poâ—uit tabernaâ—alâ—m in eis id est in ciâ—tiâ— Hieâ—on iâ— Psal. 18. to â— i Ecceâ—â—ia non apparebit impiâ—s tunc persecutoâ—ibuâ— vâ—tra modum savientibus Aug. epist. 80. tom 2. k Math. 5.15.16 l Chrysost. in Mathâ— c. 5. hom 10. tom 2. * Montem â—on videâ—â— nâ—lo mireris oculos non habent August tract 1.