was Bishop and by what proceedings it increased You Romanisâ— condemne the Greeke Church and yet it is nothing so corrupt as yours c DVR You require an easie thing for the authors of the heresies of the Greeke Church vve can easily number out of their stories Samosatenus Eutyches Sergius Arrius Nestorius Macedonius and such like WHIT. pag. 486. It is a vvonder that you vvill obiect these heresies vnto the Greeke Church vvhen you cannot bee ignorant but that moe and more horrible heresies sprung vp in the Romish Church and almost in the middest of Rome For Valentinus Marcion Cerdon Florentius Blasius Tatianus Nouatus Pelagius Julianus Celestinus and other such did broach most pestiferous heresies in Rome If you ansvvere the Latin Church condemned these I can ansvvere so for the Greeke Church And if you thinke you haue obiected vvell in numbring certeine heresies of the Greeke Church you may thinke I haue ansvvered asvvell in reckoning the heresies of the Latin Church Declare now vnto me those circumstances of time in the declining of this Church which you demaund for your owne Poynt out the time the Bishop and the growth of their Apostasie As the alteration of these Churches was then easie to bee discerned when it first beganne though now it be very hard to finde out those circumstances so we see plainely a great change in the Church of Rome yet can we not certainely pronounce the seuerall times of their seuerall declining Many are manifest which were too long to rehearse and those are distinguished according to their times and seasons The case was with the Church of Rome as we see it is in a great building for as a house which is strongly built at the first continueth so of it selfe a long time after sound and whole but if for a time it be left and neglected it beginneth in some place to decay and to bee full of chinkes which in time waxe big by degrees till they threaten ruine to the posts and roofes themselues and at length by this meanes the whole building is ruinated and falleth downe so the Romane Church in processe of time declined from her auncient estate and by the infection of error and superstition daily preuailing at length shee lost the very spirit and life of the Church Eusebius reporteth that one Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus had written of the Church that she was whilest the Apostles liued a chaste and vndefiled Virgin For then they that would haue altered the holy paterne of sound doctrine did it faintly and fearefully not daring to creepe out of their holes d DVR O horrible fact ó intolerable vvickednes vvith vvhat face can you thus speak if you remember hovv Christ promised his spouse perpetuall preseruation Hose 2.20 Isa 59.21 Psal 131.17 and such like WHIT pag. 4â—8 If your arguments vvere as great as your outeries vvho could deale vvith you That the Church may be corrupted see these places Matth. 13.25 1. Cor. 5.6 2. Cor. 11.3 Isay 1.21 Gal. 1.6 and 2.1 Further vvhat haue I else spoken that Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 32. and Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 7. 10. haue not before time vvritten And vvhen I vvrit these things I remembred vvell those promises and many other of that kind But I knovv that they belong to the Church of the elect and hinder not but that particular Churches may bee corrupted by error and false doctrine DVR Eusebius doth not anouch these from Polycrates but from Hegesippus vvho called the Church a Virgin because heretikes as yet had not openly opposed her and corrupted the seates of the Apostles and did not say that shee vvas corrupted after them WHIT. pag. 490. The matter is not great vvhich of them spake the vvords for vvhosoeuer shall vvergh the vvords shall see that the sense of them is as I haue said And if the Church vvas euer to remaine a chast and pure Virgin hovv foolish should that Hegesippus be in affirming that hitherto she remained a Virgin or vvhat may his meaning bee else then that the Apostles being dead she began to be corrupted vvhich the vvords follovving proue vvhen that age vvas ouerpassed then she began to be corrupted vvith impious error Yea and vvhen you say that as yet heretikes had not assaulted her nor inuaded the tents of the Apostles either you say nothing or you graunt that after the Apostles time they did assault her and preuaile against her But after that the Apostles departed vnto the heauenly mansions and none of that age left that had been hearers of Christ himselfe neither any of the Apostles liuing then began abhominable error to gather strength and openly in the Churches to aduaunce it selfe What more pregnant testimonie of antiquitie and historie can you desire Whilest the Apostles liued the Church was a Virgin assoone as they were dead she became corrupted and the mischiefe no doubt in time increased and spread it selfe abroade But I woonder that this e DVR Nay rather if hee were liuing hee would wonder at your foâ—lie who are either so ignorant or so forgetfull that you obserue not hovv Polycrates sent letters to Pope Victor touching the new coÌ„trouersie about the cele bration of the Passeouer WHIT. pag. 492. It seemeth in policie you passe ouer this place in silence without answere and tel vs a tale of another different thing which affordeth vs a strong argument against the tyranny of the Pope for if the most learned and holy Bishops of the Greeke Churches dissented greatly from the Pope in the celebration of Easter and would not follow the custome of the Pope and Romish Church though the Pope sought it by all meanes who can doubt but that this supreame power of the Pope ouer all Churches vnder Christ as his Vicar was vnknowne and vnheard of among them Polycrates was either so ignorant or forgetfull that hee considered not this that the Pope of Rome was left vnto the Church in the Apostles roomes to defend this Virgin and preserue her chastitie Why calleth hee the Church a Virgin Because the Apostles were liuing by whom her audacious aduersaries were alwaies discouraged and discomforted But either in this respect the Church now wanteth a Pope or else shee needes him not at all But Polycrates although there were none left to preserue the puritie of this Virgin bewaileth her want as you see which surely had been vnaduifedly done if his opinion had been that this charge belonged to the Bishop of Rome The Church then from the Apostles time began to decline and inclined to the apostasie which the Apostle did foretell should be and we see now fulfilled Then those Wolues of whom the Apostle did forewarne Act. â—0 19 came into the Church and ceased not to destroy the flocke Then those Antichrists whereof Iohn affirmeth some were in his time 1. Ioh. â— 18 began to vndertake the worke which after was perfected and accomplished I might heere shew you many euident tokens of your
Isay 19.21 Icrem 31.31 Ezeâ— 37.26 WHIT. pag. 264. As if the Church of Hierusalem was not the Church of Christ what then happened vnto it which may not befall my others And for the Prophesies you recier they belong to the company of the elect and not to your popish Church to which the Lord neuer promised any such thing Christ verily will neuer endure that his Church should be abolished or perish but it is one thing for it to perish and another to lye hid for a time and not to bee seene he hath promised it shall euer be preserued not that it shall euer be visible and glorious DVR Christ hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world WHIT. pag. 265. Will it therefore follow that his Church shall neuer be hid nor shut vp in a few nothing lesse for hee hath promised that wheresoeuer two or three are gathered together in his name he will be in the middest of them Church of Hierusalem that though it had and by continued succession inioyed the name of the Church yet in very truth it was nothing else but a caue and denne of theeues I see not what the Church of Rome can challenge to it selfe why it may not be said long agot to haue lost the body of the Church though it keepe still the visard the name and the vestments of the Church What if the Romish Church condemned Luther shall we say therefore Luther is an heretike and that it is the Catholike Church The Church of Ierusalem condemned Christ and him and his they would haue denied to be the true Church if by any colour they could that they might free themselues out of those straights they were brought into But happily they will say there is no such thing to be found in Christs new Church 2. Thess 2. But S. Paul prophesieth of an Apostasie that should be before Christs comming to iudgement i DVR The Fathers haue vnderstood the place of Antichrist or of a defection from the Romane Empire WHIT. pag. 268. Nay Cyrill of Hierusalem a man you much esteeme Catech 11. doth interpret it of an Apostasie from the true faith so doth Chrysostome Oecumenius so many others Yea your Diuines of Rhemes haue so expounded it which Apostafie is from religion and the Church as the most auncienâ— Fathers do vnderstand it and Christ prophesied euidently of the small number of his Luke 18.8 When the Soune of man shall come shall he find k DVR Augustine de vultat Ecclesiae cap. 13. saith VVE vnderstand this speech either for the perfection of faith or for the multitude of the wicked or for the small number of the good So doth Hierome contr Luciferanoâ— WHIT. pag. 270. What if these Fathers mistooke the place must we rest in their exposition we haue Nazianzene cont Arran Theophyla in 28. Luc. Caietan vpon this place against them nay further when Augustine writeth that there is signified the multitude of the wicked and the small number of the good doth he not defend our opinion that the number of the wicked shall be great but of the godly small faith on the earth If hardly any faith shal remaine on the earth and the Church cannot be said to be a Church but improperly without faith it followeth necessarily that when Christ commeth their number shall be very small who may truly be called the Church You haue now those Scriptures which do thus paint out the Church vnto vs vnlesse you thinke your selfe better able to puttray it then the holy Ghost himselfe could do who hath set out the Church in farre better colours and manner then I find yours to be in which there is nothing left but painted walles But say you there are Epistles of Christ written to the seauen Churches which were in Asia there are also diuers Epistles which were written by S. Peter S. Paul S. Iohn and by others vnto sundrie Churches in the Acts of the Apostles wee find mention made of manie Churches begun and enlarged What then Campian what think you may be inferred hereupon These were not knowne to God only but also to all Christians who euer denied that These same Churches of Asia to whom Christ sent Epistles and the Churches of the Corinthians Philippians Thessalonians Colossians to which Paul writ were particular visible Churches Did we euer seeme to make question whether a Church might be visible or no we verily call all those visible and apparant Churches which professe the pure word of God and hold those rights and Sacraments which are commaunded by Christ And so at this day by the blessing of God there are many visible Churches in England Scotland Germanie Fraunce and other parts of Christendome though it greeue you Iesuits they should be so visible and apparant But what kind of reasoning is this l DVR All particular Churches on which the Catholike Church consisteth as on parts are visible therefore the Catholike Church it selfe is visible WHIT. pag. 272. All particular Churches which make the Catholike are not visible because it consisteth not of the Churches of this time only but of Churches of the times past and of those which shall be in the time to come But say it were compact and made of the Churches of this time only yet it followeth not that it must be visible nay so long 〈…〉 particulars are visible it cannot for when all the parts are growen into oâ—â— then is the whole visible but not each seuerall part so when the seuerall parts may be seene the whole caÌ„not be seen because the parts are noâ—â—ow become one So the coÌ„trary to your collection will follow that because the parts are visible the whole cannot be seene Those Churches to whom Christ and his Apostles writ were visible therefore the Catholike Church is euer visible Haue you learned such Logicke as this at Rome in your famous schoolts of Iesuits or doe you Campian thinke that these manner of Allegations should goe for proofes in the eares of our Vniuersity men but where are those Churches now which were then so flourishing Shew me the Church of Ephesus Smyrna Pergamus Corinthes and the rest Now they are no where to be seene and are no loÌ„ger Churches And that which we haue seen already befal those Churches teach vs I pray you how it may not also betide the Church of Rome And though Rome become a heap yet the Church shall be safe neither shal the downfall of any citie or Empire euer be able to abolish it And at this day there are many flourishing Churches which are equall to your falsly called Catholike Church for the number vndoubtedly are far better for the truth they hold But you say That for 1500. yeares we could not spie out one towne one village one house seasoned with our doctrine Nay Campian that is very false m DVR The Arrians Mâ—â—cedonians and all other auncient heretikes may by the same probability say as much
what may be feared of them namely lest that rather then they should not many they would waâ— waâ—â—on against Christ and breake their first faith which is not their vow but the profession of Christian religion which such light buswiues would easily coâ—â—â—â—â— that they might inioy their pleasures And that this is his meaning the 1â— verse sheweth For certeine are already turned backe after Satan shewing what some had done he admonisheth them to be wary lest others should do the like And as for the Fathers if they did also expound these words as indeed they doe not yet the argument is very weake in diuinity The Fathers haue thus expounded it therefore the exposition is true Luther indeed tooke to wife in holy wedlocke a Virgin that once was intangled by a rash superstitious vow after she had bin more rightly instructed in the truth of religion Exclaime bitterly as you list Call Zuinglius also a swash buckler seeing your self is a player of a Price But tell vs wherein he did euer shew himselfe such a cutter forsooth he boldly ventered his life with his fellow citizens Slerdum lib. 8. Occolam Ephes lib. 4. If Zuinglius at the commaund of the Senate went to warre against the enemies of his couÌ„trie religion where he perished by cruell theeues who lay in waite for him what did he vnbefitting a valiant man a good citizen and a faithfull Pastor to do For whereas you challenge him with conspiracie against his country besides that it is a shamelesse lie I wonder why you should obiect such a crime to him seeing with you it is a thing very commendable for men to conspire against their Prince and country As for Caluin whom you call a seareback runagate the whole Church of Christ knoweth to be an excellent man and a most constant seruant of the Lord who was as farre from lewdnes and dishonastie as you are from shamefastnes and honesty If he was seared S. Paul was so too Gal. 6.17 yea diuers others but indeed he was not And whereas you call him a runagate I pray you tell vs where you haue liued for these diuers yeares and remember what your selfe were Caluin neuer forsooke the Church hee once tooke vpon him to gouerne but there he liued with the speciall loue of all and there he ended his daies but why doe I answere you anything in defence of those excellent and worthy men whom you shal neuer iustly defame though you burst your hart with lying But let vs now heare your communication as you call it And heere you demaund Whether we will subscribe to the Church which flourished these many hundred youres we answere we will subscribe but say you to which Church I answere r DVR He did not demaund whether you would subscribe to that Church which had continued in the precept of the Apostles but vvhether to that Church vvhich hath flourished these many hundred yeares vvhich if you vvould you must needs yeeld as ouercome vvhen none but ours haue flourished thus long WHIT. pag. 285. As if no Church but the Romish Church had flourished these many hundred yeares or for many ages together in the opinion of men it only hâ—â— the name of â—â—e church 〈…〉 will subscribe to all Churches whether they flourished now 〈…〉 they hold the Apostles doctrine but you shall neuer proue 〈◊〉 we must necessarily subscribe to place Sea succession no more then Christ his disciples were bound when there was no true Church flourishing vpon the earth to the Church which is built vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles that is to the Churches of Hierusalem Antioch Ephesus and all those famous and excellent Churches of which wee reade in the Epistles written by the Apostles yea euen to the auncient Church of Rome to which yours is no more like then an apple to an oysteâ— Finally we subscribe to those Churches of whom we reade in histories that they kept the seed of that doctrine which the Apostles taught among them sound vncorrupt These Churches as long as they did continue in the Apostles doctrine were true Churches to those Churches we haue and euer will subscribe And by this I thinke we haue cut off the progresse of your conference for we haue not giuen you such an answere as you fained to your selfe Wherefore that which followeth in you hangeth together like a rope of sand but no answere will please you vnlesse we offer to subscribe to your Romish Church but that we iustly disclaime because it hath fouly corrupted the â—â—â—stles writing You must find you out other subscribers Campian for wee will subscribe to none but the Apostolicall Churches But one thing say you they will still stand vpon in darkenes that where and in what place soeuer the Church is there are conâ—eiued therein only Saints and such as are predestinate to go to heauen We speake not so of the Church as you write for we are taught by the Scriptures thus to distinguish the Church that it is sometimes Å¿ DVR I beleeue only one Catholike Church as the Apostles and Nicene Creed hath taught me which conteineth both the elect and as many as professe true religion Now you teach me to beleeue two Churches WHIT. pag. 286. This distinction taketh not away the vnity of the Church no more then when the Church is said to be mâ—â—â—an and uâ—â—â—phant vniuersall and particular For the visible and â—â—uisible Church make but one called visible for the outward policy or order of it which is seene and discerned inuisâ—ble because Gods election and the electes faith is not to be seene with eies And this distinction we haue Esay 1.9 Matth. 22.14 As for the Creedes you mention we beleeue them in this point aswell as you But tell vs this one Catholike Church what is it If you restraine the name to the visible Church first you exclude both that in heauen of the Saints and that which shall be of these which aâ—e vnborne and yet do belong to the Catholike Church secondly you place faith in the sense which the Apostle saith is of things which are not seene Heb. 11.1 As for that Catholike Church which we beleeue it is the company of all the elect euen as many as haue been from the beginning of the world and shall be to the end therefore it is called the Apostolike and holy Church the communion of Saints And to this communion belong no prophane and wicked men no hypocrites because they haue no fellowship with Christ For the holy Church is the mysticall body of Christ of which body no member can at any time perish visible and sometimes inuisible In a particular visible Church of which they are members who will heare the Word and receiue the Sacraments we confesse there are many fained Christians who had rather haue the visard of faith then true faith indeed An inuisible Church we affirme to containe only the godly who with a
would follow that God himselfe the author of nature is culpable And so proceedeth vtterly denying that he had any purpose in those bookes to speake of that will which is made free by Gods grace And whatsoeuer in these books passed his pen which seemed to fauour the Pellegians then Patrons of freewill as you are now all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke and cleareth it from their cauils Haue we any cause to be offended with Augustine which in this question is not against vs And that you may plainly perceiue how indiscreetly you alledged these bookes of free-will marke what hee writeth of the will of man in those same bookes n DVR Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorāce all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man though free is able to do nothing to merit heauen by but by the grace of God And you are ignorant that the freedome of will consisteth in this that by no necessitie it is carried to either part WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace and not made good by grace so you teach that no new will is infused but the natural is helped and as it were vnloosed by grace which is not much from Pelagianisme for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature that it need not be giuen him from aboue but only by the helpe of grace to be drawne out of certeine difficulties in which the corruption of sinne had left it And as for my ignorance I confesse it and thinke it more learned then your knowledge for if those who do things necessarily do them not freely then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely for God worketh well and the diuell euill necessarily So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill for not necessity but force and compulsion taketh away the freedome of the will Hold thou fast saith Augustine this principall of piety Delibere Arbit 61.2 cap. 20. that no good thing happens vnto thee either when thou thinkest or vnderstandest or any way imaginest which is not from God And this was Augustines constant opinion of freewill after that being stirred by the Pellagians he throughly vnderstood the question viz. that he iudged it to be vtterly lost and gone o DVR The meaning of the place is this that man so lost his freewill that be lost himselfe yet so as no man in his right wits will deny but he is a man still WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we desire for as man lost himselfe and yet remained a man but not such as he was good iust holy indued with perfection but cleane changed so the free will of man was lost not that no wil remained but that it was changed from good to euill for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all but no good wil as we affirme not there is no man at all remaining but no good man Man saith he by abusing his free-will lost both it and himselfe Enchir. 3. But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs for say you they that make their captious deuises the rule of their faith must not they bee offended with Augustine which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus An Epistle Campian do you call it it was euer accounted a booke but what is there in that Epistle as you call it against vs in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity vnity perpetuall succession and with that Church which alone amongst so many heresies hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription We also agree with that Church which hath all these And yet to these must be added as Augustine saith in the same place sincere wisdome and truth else all the other bind vs not for they are of no value without that wisdome but this wisdome and truth though without these is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things so saith Augustine Cont. Fundam cap. 4. if the truth appeare manifestly so as it cannot be doubted of it alone is more to be esteemed then p DVR Augustine affirmeth that these cannot be without the truth WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine sheweth the contrarie for if truth cannot be separated from these he had spoken very vnfitly when he said he preferred the truth before all these If you can take or rightly challenge the possessiō of truth in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity Vnity Succession all those reasons that keepe me in the Catholike Church Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it selfe alone and sincere wisdome then all those things you mention Antiquity Vnity Succession and we perceiuing this truth and wisdome so manifestly in our Churches that none that will see the truth can doubt whether we hold the truth or no do willingly giue you free liberty to bragge whilest you list of antiquity vnity succession without the truth There is then as you see no cause why we should be angry with Augustine either now or before But at length you leaue Augustine and call out Optatus Bishop of Miletum of whom you say you desire to know what our opinion is I verily thinke he was a good Father and very like vnto Augustine and I take the things to be true which many worthy men haue said in his commendation But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church Why should he not or what doth that cōcerne vs Augustine also obserued the same course and it was a good motiue that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists which seditiously without cause separated themselues from the Church But wee deny your Church to be Catholike and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists It must first appeare that it is the Church before we can be conuicted of schisme The q DVR So indeed Caluin answereth but it will not serue your turne for Opratus proueth himself to be in the Catholike Church because he ioyned himselfe to Saint Peters chaire WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire the externall seate or the succession of Bishops you shall neuer proue it and the contrary I cen easily obiect out of Optatus himselfe Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholike iudgement With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike because he kept the Catholike confession and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops Finally his argument was good against the Donatists who did separate themselues from the communion of the Catholike Church while they consented not with these Churches where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawfull ordination of Bishops did
and explaned Page 53. 54 The summe of the second answere touching the true meaning of the Scripture 1 The substance and soule of the scripture is the true meaning Page 59 2 The sense is not that which most hold but which is agreeable to the scripture ibid. nota 3 Papists make the Church the interpreter of scriptures that is first Bishops then Councels in their defect the Pope for he so challengeth it that whatsoeuer he thinketh that must be the meaning of it Page 60 4 It is very absurd to hang the sense of the scriptures vpon one mans iudgement especially vpon the Pope so vnlearned and absurd an interpreter as many of them haue bin Page 60. 61 5 They teach the sense of the scripture may be changed with the times and occasions Page 61 6 Foure senses of euery scripture made by Papists Page 61. 62 7 The manner of interpreting the scriptures amongst Protestants which is auncient and safe Page 62 8 Protestants do not exclude Christ from the supper as Papists falsely accuse them yet they include him not in it as Papists do his naturall body they place in heauen but the virtue communion and benefit of this body they exclude not but mainteâ—â— that whole Christ is present to each mans faith Page 63 9 Christ is as present in Baptisme and was to the Fathers as in the Supper ibid. nota 10 The popish and false interpretation of these words This is my body this my bloud confuted by the same rule whereby Campian would confirme them that is by conference of them with the words adioyning Page 64. 65 11 That the words of the sacrament bee figuratiue is proued by the induction of other sacraments Page 65. 66 12 There is no miracle in the sacrament Page 67 13 Papists affirme that the wicked eate the body of Christ as well as the beleeuer Page 67 14 All antiquity is on the Protestants side for the interpretation of the words of the sacrament against the Papists and so their transubstantiation is a new inuention Page 67 15 The testimonies of Tertullian and Augustine alleadged and of Theodoret. Page 68. 69 16 The testimonie of Macarius a Monke Page 70 17 Campian dealeth vnequally pressing the Protestants to leaue the iudgement of the scripture and stand to the iudgement of the Pope being an enemy to them Page 71 The summe of the third answere touching the nature of the Church 1 The true notes of the Church whose present being maketh a true Church whose absence marreth and ouerthroweth it are the word the whole and pure sacraments Page 77. 78 2 The Church is more hid and vnknowne then the Scripture Page 78. nota 3 The Church is euer and must be vpon the earth and oftentimes inuisible compared therefore of Augustine to the Moone Page 78 4 In the daies of Ahab and of Christ it was inuisible or scarce visible Page 80 5 Succession not necessary to the being of the Church for it hath bin and yet no Church as in the Church of the Iews Page 81 6 The small number of the faithfull as Christs 〈◊〉 Pag. 82 7 What is a visible Church Page 82. 83 8 Though perticular Churches are visible it followeth not that the Catholike Church is euer visible ibid. 9 The antiquitie of our faith and doctrine is from the Apostles time Page 83. 84 10 Superstitious growing vpon the Church Page 84 11 The growing of the Popes authority to the height it is now at 84. nota 12 The bringing of Images into the Church Page 84. nota 13 The Grecians not subiect to the Romish Church ibid. 14 The vow of virginitie not vnderstood by faith in S. Paul and what is meant by it Page 86. nota 15 To what Church the Protestants will subscribe Page 87 16 In the visible Church are both good and hypocrites in the inuisible only godly and faithfull men Page 88 17 The distinction of visible and inuisible make not two Churches but one and how they differ and what the Catholike Church is nota The summe of the fourth Answere touching generall Councels 1 Protestants with consent of antiquitie prefer the Scripture before Councels Page 94. nota 2 Nazianzenes hard censure of Councels Page 95 3 The first Councell hold by the Apostles and Church by necessarie consequent condemneth the multitude of popish ceâ—â—â—â—nies Page 96 4 Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time how would he complaine if he saw the multitude of popish ceremonies Page 96 5 Gregories speech expounded touching the foure generall Councels Page 97 6 The iudgement of the Church of England touching the foure generall Councels Page 98 7 The Popes may not haue Peters honour seeing they haue not his vertues and pietâ—â— 99 8 The Canon of the Councell of Nice vtterly ouerthrowed the supremacie of the Pope giuing him no authoritie ouer other churches no more then others ouer his Page 100. 101 9 The Councell of Calcedon doth not confirme the Popes supremacie but ouerthrowes it The Councell gaue to the church of Râ—â—â— greater prerogatiues because it was the chiefe seate of the Empire and not for any law of God and made the Bishop of Constantinople equall with the Bishop of Rome Page 101. 102 10 The Councell of Constantinople gaue vnto the sea of Rome the honour of precedence and place not of authority Page 103 11 The Councell of Ephesus ascribeth no more to the Bishop of Rome then to other Bishops ibid. 12 The Councell of Nice doth not establish the vnbloudie sacrifice of the altar for in the canon named there is no mention of sacrifice or altar Page 104 13 The Fathers haue called the Lords Supper an vnbloudie sacrifice because it is without bloud and not because no bloud is then shed Page 105 14 Saincts departed know neither vs nor the things we do or slâ—â—â—d in need of no reason then we should pray vnto them though the custome be auncient it hath no warrant Page 106 15 Saincts departed know our generall conditions as we theirs not our perticular state nota 16 S. Paul prayed not to the Romanes and Corinthians as Papists do to Saincts but required of them a christian dutie nota 17 The Councell of Calcedon admiâ—teth ministring Widowes who are but 40. yeares of age forbidding them marriage when as S. Paul would haue them 60. before they be admitted Page 107 18 Duraeus confesseth that in the first age they did not prefer continone is before marriage nota 19 They who haue vowed single life and cannot performe it haue done euill in vowing but not in marrying and for to vow things not in our power is to mock God Page 108 20 Chastitie and single life is not in mans power nota 21 Cyprian alloweth Virgins who haue vowed virginitie if they cannot liue honestly to marry Page 109 22 Campian maketh the Councell of Trent and other Councels equall with the foure Euangelists Page 110 23 Priuate men alleadging the scripture rather to be beleeued then the
Councell is not only Loâ—hers iudgement but Gersons and Panormitans Page 111 24 The reasons why Protestants went not to the Councell of Trent Page 112 25 Iohn Husse burned at the Councell of Constance contrary to the Emperours warrant Page 112 26 No promise made by the Emperour or any secular Prince may hinder the proceedings of Ecclesinsticall Iudges nota 27 Ecclesiasticall Iudges that is the Councell is abone the Emperour Page 113 28 Luther goes to the Councell vpon the Emperours word Pag. 114 The summe of the fifth answere touching the Fathers 1 It is a foolish brag of Papists to challenge all the Fathers for theirs and to be on their side when there is nothing lesse Page 124 2 The popish Denys was not the Denys Areopagite whom Paul conuerted to the faith and his hierarchie as noueltie Page 124. 125 3 Ignatius they boast so much of was a counterfet Page 125. 126 4 The argument is weake Ireneus is challenged by Protestants to haue written something vnsoundly therefore he is altogether on the Papists side he errect about the time of Christs preaching baptisme and death he was a Millenarie Page 126 5 Clemens taught that Christ did neither hunger nor thirst and that he taught but 〈◊〉 veare And that the Philosophers in hellexpeâ—ted Christs comming and being taught by him beleeued Page 127 6 Tertullian in his booke of prescriptions hath many things against the Romish church Page 127 7 The popish Hippolytus is counterfeit and his booke of Antichrist which gesseth that the Diuell was Antichrist Page 127. nota 8 Caussaeus excused for his censure of Cyprian by Nazianzenes report of him what he was in his youth Page 128 9 Cyprian and other Fathers corrupted the doctrine of repentance making it a kind of satisfaction they detracted from the death of Christ and the power of it Page 129 10 Chrysostome Nazianzene Ambrose and Hierome are not wholy on the Papists side because Luther and others censured them in some things Page 130 11 Papists are not the children of the Fathers but as the Pharisies were of Moses and the Iews of Abraham Protestants reuerence the Fathers but acknowledge but one father which is in heauen nota 12 Beza did Hierome no wrong if Erasmus said true of his censuring of S. Paul for want of moderation in ansâ—ering the high Priest and imputing some wants to Christ Page 131 13 Hierome often much wresteth the scripture Page 132 14 It is lawfull to prefer one man in the truth before all Fathers and Councels in error Page 132 15 Lent fast though auncient yet was it not ordeined by Christ or his Apostles the manner of obscruing it not the same in all Churches Page 133. nota 16 What fasts Protestants allow the same iudgement they haue which Augustine hath who knew not Lentenâ—fast Pag. 134 17 The popish Monks are maruelous voluptuous and liue in sensualitie far vnlike those who haue beene Page 134 18 Reliques of Saincts not burned nor their funerals remoued but their superstitions iniurious to God and his glory Pag. 135 19 Augustine in his booke of freewill doth not establish it but sheweth that sinne commeth from mans freewill not from God and therefore intitled his booke so Page 136 20 The Papists and Pelagians differ not much in freewill Pag. 137. nota 21 Necessitie is not opposite to the freedome of Will but to force and compulsion man lost not his will but the qualitie of it nota 22 Augustine esteemed much of antiquitie vnitie and succession if sincere wisdome and truth went with them else he preferred truth before them so do Protestants Page 138 23 Optatus confuted Donatists by the communion of the Catholique Church so are schismatikes to be delt with but not from the now Romish church which is no true church Pag. 138. 139 24 Anthonie and other Hermites like him haue not successors like themselues He accounted a Monastery for a Monke as water is to fish Page 140. nota 25 Prudentius vsed a poeticall libertie in his deuotions to Saincts Page 140. nota 26 Praying to Saincts had gotten great footing in the Church when Ambrose liued and he and other Fathers were corrupted by it Page 141. nota 27 Gregorie without any warrant called Images lay mens bookes Page 141 28 It is lawfull to breake downâ— Images by warrant of the word and examples in it and in the stories of the primitiue Church nota 29 Not Protestants but Papists reiect oftentimes the testimonie of the Fathers and flye to Councels pag. 142. Then Campians argument is not good Protestants reiect some things in the Fathers therefore they reiect their whole volumes for if it be good it will fall vpon themselues Page 142 30 Protestants haue reason to prohibite popish bookes being full of sedition and horesie specially seeing in Queene Maryes time they executed martiall lawe vpon any that had the bookes of Protestants Page 143 31 Bishop Iewel proued all the auncient Fathers to be against the church of Rome in disputing with Harding as he had assumed at the Crosse Page 144. 145 The summe of the sixt Answere touching the foundation of the Fathers 1. Campians reason is weake The Fathers haue studied the scriptures diligently and preferred them before all other writings therefore their exposition of them is sound and good not to be reiected without sinne Page 150 2 Hierome and Augustine dissent about the exposition of Gal. 2.11 Page 151 3 Not only euery particular Fathermaâ—erre but all of one age haue erred in a particular of setting vp Images in the Church Page 150 nota 4 Augustine Innocent and other Bishops thought it neceâ—sary the Eucharist should be giuen to infants Page 151. nota 5 Papists leaue the scriptures and search out and follow after mens inuention Page 152 6 The Papists allow the learned only to reade them but Christ commandeth all Page 152. nota 7 It is prooued against Duraeus that Christ hath commanded the simple to reade the scriptures and hath left to them the bookes of the scriptures Page 152. nota 8 Protestants will subscribe to the Fathers so far as they keepe them to the scriptures Page 153 9 Denys is against the priuate Masse Page 160 10 Priuate Masses cannot profit the absent Page 160. nota 11 In Iustine Martyrs time they gaue to the people both the bread and wine ibid. 12 Cyprian makes all the Apostles equall with Peter and denies that any appeales should be made to the Bishop of Rome ibid. and pag. 161. nota 13 Lactantius denies that true religion and Images can stand together ibid. 14 The heathen worshipped not their Images but the Gods expressed by them ibid. nota 15 Athanasius maketh the scriptures sufficient ibid. 16 Epiphanius condemneth all worshipping of the virgin Mary ibid. and pag. 162 17 The Papists do worship and offer vp sacrifices to the virgin Mary and other Saints Page 162. nota 18 Basil saith in his time the prayers of the Church were in a knowne tongue ibid.
19 Prayers in an vnknowne tongue profit not the people as Duraeus thinks they do ibid. nota 20 Nazianzene alloweth and praiseth ciuill societie no lesse then Monkish life ibid. 21 Ambrose condemnes all prayers to Saints and their intercession Page 163 22 Duraeus vaine distinction of Intercessors and Suffragators ibid. nota 23 Hierome makes a Bishop and a Priest of equall authoritie bâ— the laâ— of God ibid. 24 Pope Gelasius condemneth as sacrilegious the tâ—king away of the cup from the people and commaundeth that either both the elements be giuen to them or neither Page 164 25 Duraeus maketh the Manechies the first authors of dismembring the supper ibid. nota 26 Vigilius denies the presence of Christ in the Church in both natures ibid. 27 Chrysostome exhorteth all men to reade the scriptures ibid. 28 Augustine is wholly on the Protestants side Page 165 29 By Gregories iudgement he that calleth himselfe Vniuersall Bishop is a fore-runner of Antichrist Page 161 30 Iohn Bishop of Constantinople first challenged the title of Vniuersall Bishop ibid. 31 What is meant by vniuersall Bishop by Gregories iudgement which toucheth the Pope home ibid. nota 32 Boniface the 3. tooke the name of vniuersall Bishop and deriued it to his successors Page 166. nota The summe of the seuenth Answere touching histories 1 Campian only numbering vp the Historiographers foolishly concludeth all are on their side page 169 2 Protestants refuse not to examine their doctrine by histories so they be not tied to the apparent blemishes in theÌ„ Page 170 3 Historiographers are tainted with the corruptions of their times and the later they are the more corrupt for the most part they are found to be Page 161 4 The church of Rome is maruelously corrupted though we could not tell when it begun to be so and yet see the beginning of some particulars as of vsurped authority ouer Churches of deniall of Priests mariages of worshipping Images of carnall eating in the Sacrament of Transubstantiation of Purgatory of the Pope aboue Councels Page 177. nota 5 The corruption of it greâ— not all at once no more then of Ierusalem but by little and little as in the Greeke church also Page 172 6 The heads of the heretikes who rose vp in the Greeke church so of those who rose vp in the Latine church ibid. nota 7 The Church all the Apostles time was a pure virgin after their departure became corrupt Page 173. 174 8 The promises of the Churches perpetuall preseruation from corruption did and do belong to the Church of the elect not to particular Churches ibid. nota 9 In the Councell of Africk where there were present Page 217. Bishops and Augustine himselfe the Bishop of Rome affected to haue all appeales made to him but the Councell denied it vnto him Page 175 10 The Legates of the Pope forge a Canon of the Councell of Nice to perswade this Councell which forgerie is found out by search ibid. 11 Augustine and the Bishops of Africke censured for schismatikes by Boniface for resisting the Bishop of Rome who affirmeth that they were moued vnto it by the Diuell Page 176 12 Eulalius the first Bishop of Carthage who admitted the Popes power ouer the Churches of Afrike ibid. 13 Then became the Church of Rome plainely Antichristian when Phocas the murtherer granted to her to be the head of Churches and Boniface the 3. to be vniuersall Bishop ibid. 14 Gregorie the great was the last good and the first bad Bishop of the church of Rome Page 177 15 Bernard and Aeneas Siluius who was afterward caâ—â—d Pope Pius maruellously inueâ—ed againsâ— the corruptions of the church of Rome ibid. 16 Bernard cryeth out of the pomp of Eugenius the Pâ—â—e and the impietie of his court ibid. nota 17 All sinnes in Rome might both be practised and reprehended Page 1â—8 18 The censure of Cornelius which he gaue of the church of Rome in the Councell of Trent ibid. 19 The Argument is weake the church of Rome was once holy therefore it is so still ibid. 20 Rome though it be Babylon yet not that which S. Peter spoke of 1. Pet. 5.13 Neither haue they yet prooued that Peter was at Rome Page 179 21 If histories do mention any such thing yet it is with such varietie that there is no certaintie of it in the scriptures there is not one tittle of it nay by necessary collection they disclaime it when as this then is the whole ground of the hierarchie of the Papacie it is a ground without any foundation of the scripture ibid. nota 22 Caluine confesseth the church of Rome in the time of Syricius and other Bishops to haue bene the Church of Chriâ—t but denies not but it had erred Page 181 23 Errors ouerthrow not a Church for being a true Church ibid. 24 Syricius the first who inforced single life vpon the Ministers ibid. nota and Page 182 25 Syricius and Innocent did condemne marriage as euill Page 182. nota 26 The Church of Rome is but a Church in shew and pomp else it hath nothing in it of a true Church Page 183. nota 27 Pelagius and Papists agree both about grace inbred in mans nature ibid. The summe of the eight Answere touching the Paradoxes of the Aduersaries 1 Caluin nor any Protestant maketh God the author of sin pag. 193. nota and Page 194. nota 2 God hath a finger in the action which is euill not in the corruption of it which is wholy from man but in the motion and action which is in it selse good Page 195 3 If wee say God permitteth sinne vnwillingly wee ouerthrow his prouidence and omnipotencie he willeth yet alloweth not that which is euill Page 196 4 Men are guiltie of sinne in the things they doe which are euill and yet God holy though he willeth them Augustine and Hugo de Sancto Victore doe so thinke Page 197. and Page 198 5 The Lord worketh both in him that sinneth and in him that worketh well but after a diuers manner Page 199 6 Christ is the Sonne of the essence of the Father not by decision or propagation but by communication But he is God of himselfe Page 201. and nota 7 The essence is not begotten but the person of the person Page 202. and Page 203 8 Beza corrected his error of two personall vnions in Christ. ibid. 9 The 10. of Iohn vers 30. expounded and defended that it proueth not the vnitie of essence in Christ his Father Page 204 10 Not Luther only but many of the Fathers disliked and repented the bringing in of the word Homousion yet they held the thing Page 205 11 Christ was not at the first perfect in wisedome but mcreased as in bodie so in his minde and wisedome Page 206 12 Christ was ignorant of many things but without sinne Page 208 13 Christ was ignorant of the last day as man and not onely because hee would not or did not reueale it to others Page 208. nota
the fatte would be in the fire Campian if you had not one fit of rayling at Luther for this is to shew your selfe a right Iesuite as indeed you are shamelessely and audaciously to breake out into rayling and specially to teare Luther with most bitter reproches This is your facultie and profession this you haue vndertaken to do whatsoeuer youâ— leaue vndone surely he is an happy man whom the Lord thus honoreth with the enmitie and hatred of such wicked men for he cannot chuse but be an excellent man whom wicked men do so deadly pursue But you obiect against Luther his Apostasie look to your selfe Campian if you may not bee more iustly accused of this crime for doubtlesse you are either an Apostata or you were a cunning hypocrite But if it be Apostasie to forsake Apostataes then was Luther such an Apostata For hee abandoned theeues heretikes Apostataes and separated himselfe from that Curch in which that daily Apostasie from religion 2. Thess 2.3 which the Apostle did foretell was now come to the height they then who would not be Apostataes must flie from the Apostasie of your Church But say you Luther spake not so reuerently of the Epistle of S. Iames as was fitting It is well all you can challenge him with is touching this Epistle only he neuer did by any one word impeach the Gospels of Matthew Marke Luke and Iohn neither the Epistles of Saint Paul or Saint Peter only a little he taxed the Epistle of Saint Iames. Is Luther alone in this crime hath all Antiquitie receiued this Epistle of S. Iames Luther only reiected it vndoubtedly no neither was Luther ignorant what censure the auncient Church gaue of this Epistle * Lib. 2. c. pa 23. Eusebius adueÌ„tured to write expresly of this Epistle thus b DVR But Eusebius onely saith that this Epistle vvas thought of diuers not to be vvritten by S. Iames and denies not the canonicall authoritie of it For after hee saith It was receiued of many Churches WHIT. Pag. 12. You wrest both the words and sence of Eusebius for he alleageth not other mens opinions but his owne direct iudgement But if wee admit that you say it must the rather bee counterfeit for if Saint Iames did not write it and yet hee calleth himselfe James the seruant of God and of our Lord Iesus Christ must it not bee forced â—aue the pen-men of the Scripture vsed to take other mens names vnto them If you deny it to bee written by Saint James you must needes confesse it to be Apocrypha and so after your sense Eusebius hath reiected this Epistle which thing to him that readeth Eusebius will manifestly appeare And that hee saith many Churches receiue it and not all must needs proue that he thought it was not Canonicall Be it knowne to all men that this Epistle which is fathered on Saint Iames is counterfeit what can be written more plainely it may be you will except against Eusebius But tell vs why therefore not to stand with you Hieronym in Catalogo will you heare what Hierome saith who as you well know was an Elder of the Church of Rome The Epistle of Iames is held to haue been published vnder his name by some other The one saith it is counterfeit the other writeth that it was thought to be published not by the Apostle but by some other Why then are you angrie with Luther whom you see not vnaduisedly and rashly to doubt of the authoritie of that Epistle but therein followeth the iudgement and censure of the auncient Church for from hence it is very cleare c DVR Doth hee therefore doubt of the authoritie of this booke what shall vve then say to Caluin vvho hath plainely denied that the Epistle to the Hebrues vvas vvritten by Saint Paul and if you had not been a deceiuer you vvould haue alleadged Hierome vvholy for it follovveth Though by little and little in succeeding ages it obtained authoritie WHIT. Pag. 16 He that saith It is thus held and neither dislikes nor refures such a suspition sheweth he not himself also doubtful of it Caluin had some reason because that Epistle was not published in the name of Saint Paul as this was of Saint Iames. What comparison is there in these two the Epistle of Saint Iames hath his name in the beginning of it as the author of it so hath not the other the name of Saint Paul so that hee that denies that to bee written by Saint Iames must needes make it counterfeit But no such thing here Therefore may this be held to be canonicall though it be denied to be written by Saint Paul If you had read but a few lines more you should finde that I vsed no deceite neither had you causâ— to be so bitter And these words of Hierome prooue directly that the authoritie of this Epistle was sometimes doubted of that the first age of the Church doubted somewhat of the credit and authoritie of this Epistle But you will say it was afterwards receiued and Hierome witnesseth as much I inquire not how iustly that might be receiued in a succeeding age which once was reiected that the credit and authoritie it had not in the beginning it might gaine in time by mens calmnesse in iudging neither will I contend about the authority of this Epistle Let it be as great as euer any booke had we verily receiue it and put it in the Canon of the Scriptures for whatsoeuer Luther or any other may conclude touching this Epistle or lessen the credit of it any way yet all our Churches willingly imbrace it and iudge it written by the Apostle or some Apostolike man and in it do vndoubtedly acknowledge the doctrine and spirit of an Apostle * Caluin in argument in Epist. Iacob I saith Caluin willingly and without controuersie receiue this Epistle because I see no iust cause to reiect it Therefore obiect no longer vnto vs other mens sharpe censures and hard speeches whereof we are no wayes guilty for what is it to vs what other men thinke of this Epistle who dispraise no part of it neither detract any thing from the authority thereof But where I pray you writ Luther any such thing which you make mention of let vs see the place that we may perceiue how faithfully you deale You tell vs of a Preface he writ vpon the Epistle of S. Iames such as I thinke few men know for it is no where to be found amongest Luthers workes yet by accident I light vpon that preface and read it from the beginning to the ending in which not any of those things is to be seene which you mention so that we may easily coniecture what we are like to find of you in the sequell when in the beginning you are not ashamed to lye so palpablie For Luther begins his preface thus The Epistle of S. Iames though reiected of Antiquitie I much commeÌ„d hold very fitting profitable And in
then marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther or M. Philip Melangthon or certeinly M. Zuinglius or without doubt M. Caluin and M. Beza haue faithfully intreated vpon those matters Tell vs Frier what should hinder why euery one of these you haue nominated may not as faithfully intreate of thâ—se things as those who haue liued before them in ages past what wanted they which the other had what skill of art what knowledge of the toÌ„gues what other helpes there is not any one of these but hath far surpassed in learning and all deserued commendation the whole society of Iesuits But why doe I compare these burning lights bright starres of piety and religion with the base scumme of your Doctors and this now is another of your reasons why you were so desirous to haue audience in the Vniuersity Schooles If you be Campian sodesirous as you would make the world beleeue I maruell why you are so long a comming for our schooles were euer open for you but you could neuer find the way into them If you hereafter come you shall find many in our schooles that will encounter with you in all kind of learning And heere you end your discourse of the right sense of the Scriptures EDMVND CAMPIAN The third Reason which is the nature of the Church SO soone as the Aduersarie heard the Church named hee waxed wanne yet notwithstanding hee hath deuised one thing which I would wish you to note well that thereby you may perceiue the ruine and hard shifts of falsehood The enemie perceiued that both in the a Apoc. 2. Psal 7. Isay q. 32. Cant. 6. old and new b Mat. 13. Ephes 5. 1. Cor. 12. 1. Tim. 3. Ioan. 15. Matth. 16. Matth. 18. Testament there is euery where * The scripture maketh honorable mention of the Church therefore the Romane Church is that true Church of Christ of which the Scripture speaketh so â—â—ten honorable mention made of the Church and that it is called a holy citie a fruitfull vineyard an high hill a direct path the only doue the kingdome of heauen the spouse and bodie of Christ the pillar of truth the multitude vnto which the holy Ghost being promised powreth all things needfull to saluatioÌ„ The congregation against all which the gates of hell shall neuer so preuaile that they shall vtterlie extinguish the same The congregation which who so repugneth though he confesse Christ with his mouth yet hath he no more to doe with Christ then hath a Publican and heathen man He durst not say any thing against this openly neither would hee seeme to gain-say that Church whereof the Scriptures so often make mention He kept craftily still the name of the Church but the thing it self by describing it he * This is false for your definition maketh a true Church took quite away For he hath portraied the Church with such properties as doe altogether hide it and make it as if it were Plato his Idea c Caluin Jnst. lib. 4. cup. 1. Num. 2.3 Apoc. 1.2 3. vnapt to be seene with the senses but subiect to the priuy insight and speculation of a very few men such onely as by speciall inspiration might in their imagination comprehend this arrie bodie and could likewise with a sharpe eye discerne such as are members of this chosen societie what is become of truth where is plaine dealing what Scriptures what iust iudgmentes what Fathers describe the Church in this sorte * Particular Churches are visible therefore the Catholik Church is visible There are Epistles in the Apocalyppes of S. Iohn written by d Act. 8.10.11 seq Christ himselfe to the seauen Churches which were in Asia There are also diuerse Epistles written by S. Peter S. Paul S. Iohn and by others vnto sundry Churches In the Actes of the Apostles we finde mention made of many Churches begun and enlarged what were those were they knowne to God onelie and to his Saintes or also to all sortes of Christians But truly necessitie is a deadly dart pardon them for they that all these * This is false our doctrine hath been deriued from Christ himselfe vnto vs by the faithfull of all ages 1500 yeeres cannot spie out so much as one time one village one house embrued with their doctrine vntill that vnhappie e Lutherus Moncke by his incestuous marriage had destoured a Nunne dedicated to God by former solemne vowe or vntill that quarrelling Swizer f Zuinglius had conspired against his countrie or vntill that infamous runagate g Caluinus had vndertaken an vsurped authoritie in Geneua If they will haue any Church at all they must needes fetch the same out of blind corners and challenge those for their ancestors whom they neither knew themselues neither any mortall man hath seene except they brage of such forefathers who were manifest heretiques as Aerius Iouinianus Henri Pantal in Chrenogra Heluidius Vigillantius the Image breakers Berengarius Waldensis Lothardus Wyclife Husse of all which they haue begged some peices of their diuelish doctrine Maruaile not though I haue not feared these smoders which if I shall once come to the cleare light I shall easily expell For this is our speech together Tell me dost thou beleeue as the Church doth which flourished these many hundred yeeres past Yea verilie let vs therefore discourse of our countries and times what Church dost thou beleeue The congregation of the faithfull whosenames are vnknowne but it is apparant that many such haue been Is it apparant that manie such haue been To whom it is apparant To God who saith so we that haue receiued our doctrine from God himselfe This is a loude lie how may I beleeue it If thou were feruent in faith thou should know this as assuredlie as thou dost that thou art aliue Can you refraine laughing when you heare such foolish answers All Christian people are commannded to cleaue fast vnto the Church they are warned to take heed lest they be slaine with the spirituall sword they are bid keepe peace in the house of God to commit their soules in trust vnto this pillar of truth there to make all their complaints to take for heathen all such as are cast out of this Church and yet all that haue so many men so manie hundred yeeres been ignorant where that Church is or who belong vnto it will they in darkenesse still stand vpon that point that where or in what place soeuer the Church is there are contained therein onely saints and such as are predestinate to goe to heauen whereby it falleth out that if any man will refuse to obey his prelate he may thinke himselfe to be blamelesse in so doing if hee perswade himselfe that his said prelate hath committed any great offence by that meanes is excommunicated out of the Church When I perceiued that my aduersaries inuented such deuises and that they would not associate themselues to any Church that heretofore hath been
and that when they were quite depriued of the thing it selfe they would needes though with much adoe keepe still the bare name in possession I solaced my selfe with the hope I conceiued of your ripe iudgements yea and I nothing doubted but that assoone as you should find out euen by their owne confessions these their iugling trickes you would straightwaies like plaine honest and wise men cut off such foolish snares framed of set purpose to worke your ouerthrow WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the third Reason WHat is it Campian you further bring vnto vs you propound vnto vs the nature of the Church wherein you bring nothing besides your accustomed manner of vaine and childish oratorie neither worthy the hearing of our Vniuersitie men or answerable to the opinion that is held of you As touching the Church there are many questions and great controuersies and at this day almost all disputations about religion are reduced to this head For your a DVR Jt is well that once you will acknowledge vs to be Catholiks WHIT. pag. 247. Triumph not much for the name my meaning is to giue it you no otherwise thē vsually the name of man is giuen to a dead and dry corpes where nothing is but skinne and bone He is a Catholike not who followeth the popish Apostasie but that professeth the doctrine of Christ Catholikes being tossed with the boysterous stormes of other disputations haue been willing to take b DVR Is it so great a fault to flie into the hauen of the Church WHIT. pag. That is not the fault we taxe you for but that you couer all your errors by pretending the name of the Church And if we by manifest arguments out of the Scripture reproue and refell your heresies you cry out you are the Church and by that thinks to defend all things though they be neuer so absurde harbor in this hauen of the Church Here they dwell here they place all their hopes of safety and victorie heere they hide themselues whensoeuer they are beaten out of the field Therefore they fortifie this sconce with all the skill they can and strengthen it with munition on all sides for which cause I maruell so much the more to find you from whom so great things are expected in this controuersie to be so sleight and shallow for you neither teach nor conclude nor yet propound any thing for your Church against ours which hath in it either forceable reason or proofe But it may be this is but your first skirmish you will happely afterwards deale with vs hand to hand yet I wil trace you out in your owne steps that I may lay hold of you if happely I may find you any where certeine So soone say you as the aduersarie heard the Church but named he waxed wanne yea Campian it made him blush when he perceiued so chast holy a matron so impiously insolently to be abused by you The Church doth euer expell you and deny al commerce with you Yet you as very audacious importunate wooers giue not ouer your suite to compasse her Sure there was no cause why your aduersary should wax so wanne vnlesse he feared some euill measure from such cutthroats as you are Yet notwithstanding say you he hath deuised one thing which I would wish you to note well You will sure acquaint vs with some great and vnheard of matter verily I much desire to know what is this one thing yet I feare it will proue starke nothing and for all your throes you wil bring forth but a mouse As for the honorable praises of the Church you mention we both acknowledge those and speake far greater things of it but verily they agree not to your Church at all for it is the Babylonish whoore a branch cut off from the true Vine a denne of theeues a broad way leading to destruction the kingdome of hell the body of Antichrist a sinke of errors a great mother of fornications the Church of the wicked out of which euery Christian ought to depart which Christ shal one day fearefully destroy and giue her the iust recompence of all her sinnes In vaine then do you reckon vp the praises of the Church vnlesse you can demonstrate that they are proper to your Church which you shall neuer be able to doe so long as Rome standeth He would not say you seeme to gain-say the Church hee kept craftily still the name of the Church but the thing it selfe by his definition he tooke quite away We verily Campian c DVR Why do you not then defend her authoritie but diminish and lessen it yea and horriblie blaspheme affirming that the spouse of Christ may erre and be deceiued WHIT. pag. 248. It is you that blaspheme making the Church equall to God to whom it is only peculiar not to erre not be deceiued For the Church may erre though she be his Spouse but not persist in any deadly error as the Church of the Apostles did when shee thought her husbands kingdome was of this world yea and after shewed her ignorance of the calling of the Gentiles reuerence and honor the Church as our mother and in our definition wee both retaine the name and cleerely set out the nature of the thing it selfe But you hauing lost the Church long since do yet challenge the name and the vaine title of the church Our definition of the Church doth nothing like you why I pray you because we describe the Church by those properties which doe altogether darken and hide it Wee ascribe those properties to the Church which comprise the true nature of the Church whose presence make a Church and their absence marre or destroy a Church But what are those properties which you affirme to darken and hide the Church we verily iudge this to be proper to the true Church to d DVR The Church is not to be sought for by these as by notes but they are to be learned from the Church WHIT. pag. 252. Will it therefore follow because the word is no where else truly preached but in the Church nor the Sacramēts purely administred that the Church is not to be knowne and found out by then Yea the contrary followeth because they are not elsewhere but in the Church therefore by these notes the true Church is to be knovvne and demonstrated For if only Peripatetians professe the Philosophy of Aristotle then that kind of learning pointeth out the Peripatetians and distinguisheth them frō all other sects of Philosophers DVR Thus to search out the Church is but to secke out one vnknowne thing by another which is more vnknowne WHIT. pag. 254. As if the Scripture vvere more hidden and vnknovvne then the Church and the Scripture could better bee knovvne by the Church then it by the Scripture vndoubtedly no. 1. Because the Scripture begeteth and maketh a Church and then is a ting hknovvne vvhen the cause is knovvne 2. I here are many and diuers Churches
WHIT. pag 272. It the Arrians or any other heretike can proue the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures they may answere the same which we doe for euery Church which holdeth the Apostles doctrine may professe that all cities village◠〈◊〉 which were religous were seasoned with their doctrine for in the Apostles time all Churches all cities all townes euery family embraced the same faith and religion which we now professe After that by little and little the purity of doctrine n DVR Tell me then from whom and in what age any doctrine of our profession was brought into the Church WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sunne is so very swift that we may see it hath moued though we cannot discerne the mouing of it so such is the mystery of your iniquity that I well perceiue by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apostolicall but the time when and the manner how they were brought in is not much to our purpose And it were too long to tell all yet heare some Your Romish Bishop a long time together was but equall to other Bishops thâ—ugh much was giuen to him for the excellency of that Church After the Christian world was diuided into foure Prouinces when he became the chiefe of the Patriarkes after this he began to challenge authority ouer other Churches and for that purpose counterfeited the Councell of Nice but he was repressed by the African Councell Then Gregory the great greatly inueyed against Iohn of Constantinople because he sought the name of vniuersall Bishop and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichrist Lastly Boniface the eight with a great summe obtained that honor of Phocas the Parricide And since that hee grew to that height that hee made not only Churches and Kings but the Christian Emperour himselfe to kisse his feete But see another example Time was when there were no images in Churches As that of Epiphanius proueth who rent a vaile in peeces because there was in it an image of Christ or of some Saint But in time they were receiued into the Church but no honor giuen them yet after that good Bishops brake them and cast them out againe as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Bishop of Massilia did whom he thus checketh for it In that you forbad them to be worshipped wee commend you but that you brake them we reprehend you Gregor regist lib. 7. Epist. 9. Lastly the second Nicene Councell decreed that they were not to be broken yea that they were religiously to be worshipped And thus hath it succeeded in other things as S. Paul did foretellâ—e saying The mysterie of iniquitie doth alreadie worke 2. Thess 2.7 began to be corrupted and diuers superstitions spread far and neare though the holy Fathers did as much as they could resist 2. Thess 2.7 vntill that mystery of iniquitie which tooke rooting in the very Apostles time spread it selfe o DVR VVhat can be spoken or imagined more wicked and impious WHIT. pag. 278. Then prophesied S. Paul impiously when he did so â—â—â—ell of a departing and that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God Is this any other then that the mysterie of iniquitie should spread it selfe ouer the Church by all the parts of the Church and at length possessed it wholy Yet Antichrist that man of sinne could neuer preuaile so farre but a great multitude of the Saints remained and those whose names were written in the booke of life did vtterly abhorre all those filthie and wicked superstitions of Antichrist For in the Church of Rome it selfe euen in the worth times of it yet many were euer found who worshipped the God of their Fathers and kept themselues vnpolluted with that horrible Idolatrie And this can histories of all times witnesse which I could now recite if it were needful and reckon vp to you many houses villages townes cities and countries where Christ had many and populous Churches The p DVR This is very false for in the FloreÌ„tine Councell the Emperour Paleolus together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ and imbraced the Romane faith yea and at this day they dissent from vs in few things as Icremy the Patriarke of Constantinople hath plainly written WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted Schismatickes or vvhy obey they not the Pope why came they not to the Councell of Trent the Pope by al meanes hath sought to haue theÌ„ subiect to him but they stil coÌ„temne him to his no small griefe It is true the Emperour the Patriarke and a multitude of Bishops came to the FloreÌ„tine CouÌ„cel They agreed vvith theÌ„ in many things â—â—â—hers they dissented your TraÌ„substantiation they vtterly renouÌ„ced At that time Iesaphus their Patriarke suddenly died Eugenius the Pope instantly vrged a nevv election They denied to make any till they came to Constantinople See you not hovv vvell they agree I haue a booke of yours not of Ieremies neither vvill a small thing make me beleeue it is his for both the Grecianâ— and particularly he hath giuer great approbation of our Churches as vve find it in his vvorkes published both in Greeke and Latin Greeke Church could neuer yet be brought to ioyne it self to your Church and it is 〈◊〉 opposite to you as euer our Church was And yet you so forge these things as if the Pope of Rome long agoe had had the whole world vnder his subiection Vntill that vnhappy Monke as you say by his incestâ—â—â—â— marriage had defloured a Nunne dedicated to God by 〈◊〉 soleâ—â—â—◠〈◊〉 or vntill that quarrelling Swâ—â—â— had câ—â—spired against his country or that infamous â—â—â—â—gate had vndertaken an vsurped authority in Geâ—â—â—â— So Campian go on to raile and reuile euery good man powre out the gall of your bitternes seeing you haue vndertaken to spend all your venemous darts vpon them Luthers name is written in the book of life and his memory shal euer be sacred among all good men and your reproaches shall not be able to pearce or wound him It is a true saying that a false repreach pierceth not the skinne you call him Monke your selfe is but a Frier now Monkes were euer accounted more honest then Friers But he by incestuous marriage deâ—â—oured 〈◊〉 Nomâ—â—â— dedicated to God by solemne vow q DVR But you goe against S. Paul who directly denounced damnation to those who will marry hauing broken their first saith which is vnderstood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of single life by incestuous marriages WHIT. pag. 281. But how proue you that the Apostle vnderstaÌ„deth by that faith the vow of virginity Nay the scope of the place sheweth vs the contrary for he forbiddeth that younger widdowes whom he perswadeth to marry should be taken into that office only such as were threescore yeares old who may well abstaine from marriages follow this calling Now if they be not of this age he sheweth
true faith lay hold on the Gospell These though they may bee seene as long as they liue amongst men seeing they are men as others bee yet because neither their faith nor Gods loue which maketh them members of the Church is visible we affirme that this Church consisting of holy and faithfull men is altogether inuisible Christ is the head of this Church to this only the elect caâ— ioyne themselues wee then acknowledge another Church besides that which coÌ„teineth only Saints for so should there be no visible Church at all but what company of men soeuer vpon the earth doth professe the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets we professe that to be the true Church of Christ though many wicked men be found in it Neither are we the first who did inuent and deuise these things as you say of vs but are ready to proue theÌ„ both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity Comfort then your selfe Campian as much as you can with the wits of our Vniuersity men and promise to your selfe great things from vs but see you bring more dexterity of wit or else without doubt you can neuer deceiue vs with this shallow conceit If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our Vniuersity men I perswade my selfe they would not only teare to pieces these your childish shifts but do as much by you too for abusing so shamefully their learned conceites EDMVND CAMPIAN The fourth Reason which is generall Councels AGreat controuersie for the keeping of the ceremonies of the old law which in the Primitiue Church much moued the minds of faithfull people was by a Councell gathered together of the Apostles and some elders decided Children then beleeued their Parents and sheepe their Sheepheards charging them in this sort a Act. 15 It hath pleased the holy Ghost and vs after this there were holden foure generall Councels of auncient Fathers for the rooting out of heresie which budded vp aboundantly in euery age which were of such authoritie aboue b Greg. li. 1. epist. 24. 1000. yeeres agoe that * Gregorie made the foure Councels equall to the Euangelists great honour was attributed vnto them as though it had been vnto the foure Gospels I will seeke no further euen here in our owne Countrey by an c Anno 1. Elizab. acte of Parliament the selfe same Councels doe retaine still their former force and pure authoritie which said acte I will heere alleadge And call thee thy selfe O England my most louing Countrey to witnesse If thou reuerence as thou pretendest those Councels Nic. Can. 6. Chal. act 4. 16. Constan c. 5. Eph. conc in epist. ad Nestorium Nic. con 14 Chal. act 11 Nic. conc apud Soc. lib. 1 cap. 8. Vide Chalc. can 4.15.23 then wilt thou yeeld vp the supremacie to the Bishop of the chiefe sea that is to Saint Peter Then wilt thou acknowledge vpon the altar the vnbloodie sacrifice of the bodie and blood of Christ. Then wilt thou pray the blessed Martyrs and all the Saints in Heauen to make intercession to Christ for thee Then wilt thou restraine these leacherous Apostataes from their filthie carnall copulation and open incest Then wilt thou build vp many things which now thou pullest downe and wish many things vndone which now thou doest Moreouer I promise and vndertake as occasion and time shall serue to proue that the * Campian makes all Synods equall with the Gospell Councels holden at other times and namely the Councell of Trent haue been of equall authoritie and credit with the foure first Councels Wherefore then should I not come to this place of triall securely and couragiously to marke into what corner my enemie will creepe seeing I am * This is false ancient Councels doe not confirme the Romish faith ayded with the valiant and piked garrison of all the Councels For I will alleadge both most manifest matter which he shall not be able to wrest aside and also most substantially prooued which he dare not contemptuously reiect He will perhaps goe about to trifle out the time with multiplying of many words but if you be the men that I haue alwaies taken you for you will take so good heed vnto him that he shall neither rob you of your eares nor eyes If there shall be any at all so mad as to oppose himselfe against the sages of all Christendome and those such men as for holines of life learning and antiquitie are too great to be challenged I would willingly behold that brazen face the which when I shall shâ—w you I will leaue the rest to your imaginations In the meane while I will giue you this caueat that whosoeuer affirmeth that a generall Councell * The Councell of Trent was neither a full Councell nor lawfully held And so both the Emperor and the French King haue iudged Sleidan anno 1551. lib. 33. The assemblie of certaine men duly and orderly kept and finished is of no force or authoritie the same man seemeth to me to be one of no iudgement nor of any wit and not onely an asse in diuinitie but also voide of discretion in worldly policie If euer the spirit of God illuminated the Church surely then that time is most fit to send downe the holy Ghost when the religion perfection knowledge wisdome and honour of all Churches dispersed throughout all Christendome are assembled together into one Citie and vsing all meanes both diuine and humane whereby the truth may be searched out Matth 18. they call vpon the holy Ghost promised e Joh. 14. by God vnto them that by his assistance they may establish godly lawes for the safe and wise gouernement of the Church Now let there some pettie peart hereticall Doctor leape out let him looke vp stately let him scorne and mocke let him lay all shame aside let him saucily giue iudgement of his owne iudges what game what pastime shall he make we haue spied out such a one euen Martin f Lib. de capt Bab. Luther who saith that he more esteemeth of the voices of two honest and learned men ye may well imagine his owne and Philip Melancthons if they come together in Christs name then he did of all generall Councels O worthy companie We haue found out also another of the same crue to wit g Martini Kemnitij examen Conc. Tridentini Kemnitius who hath vndertaken to examine the Councell of Trent by his owne vnreasonable giddie braine what hath he gained an euill name so that he except he preuent it by recanting shall be buried for an heriticke with Arrius whereas the Councell of Trent the elder it waxeth by so much more it shall flourish daily and continually * The famous praises of the Councell of Trent O good Lord with what diuersitie of people out of all countries with what choice of Bishops throughout all Christendome with what excellencie of Kings and Common-weales with what
reueiled to the Saints on earth heauenly things but not what was done in heauen only he made those diuine mysteries knowe vnto them which were necessary to saluation whereof it followeth not that he reuealeth to the Saints in heauen what is particularly done on earth vnles you can proue that there is the like necessity of this knowledge ignorant of those things we doe And therefore we rather goe vnto o DVR S. Paul desireth the Romans and Corinthians to pray for him and therfore vve may desire the same of the Saints in heauen We knovv that vve obtaine all in the name of Christ but seeing all are not in like grace vvith God the Fathers and vve haue made choise of those vvho are most gratious WHIT. pag. 336. The first part of your answere confuteth the latter vnles you will say that Paul was lesse gratious with God then the Romans and Corinthians and both are weake of no value for first Paul praieth not to them as you do to Saints but only desireth them to performe a mutual Christian duty which the Saints liuing who are acquainted with one anothers estate and wants ought not to neglect if he had made the likesuite to a Prophet departed Iohn Baptist or Iames slaine by Herode you had somewhat to say Lastly if those are to be made choise of for mediators who are in greatest grace with God to whom should we goe but vnto Christ his dearely beloued Sonne in whom God is well pleased and we reconciled Eph. 16. Matth. 3.17 Ioh. 14.6 1. Tim. 2.5 Christ and pray vnto him alone who both knoweth our wants and also will and can grant vnto vs such things as we desire You if you please may seeke after the pirling streames but wee will draw out of the fountaine it selfe neither doe we regard the inueterate custome of praying vnto saints for though this custome is auncient neuerthelesse it hath flowed from the well-head of humane superstition and not from diuine authoritie and whereas you adioyne your conceit concerning the restraining offeminate Apostataes from wicked copulation and for this purpose alleadge some Canons of the Councell of Chalcedon Concil Chale can 4.15.23 in this you follow your olde wont for there is only one Canon to be found against ministring widowes which after they had taken vpon them the office of ministration married againe but how vniust this law is it may easilie appeare 1. Tim. 5. For when as Saint Paul would haue these widowes to be p DVR There is nothing determined in the Scriptures concerning the age of vviddovves That vvhich S. Paul vvriteth vvas profitable for the insancie of the Church but vvhen the Gospell had taken deeper â—oot in mens harts they began to preferre coÌ„tiuency before marriage WHIT. pag. 337. Your impudency is to be admired seeing S. Paul hath plainly determined that they should bee fixtie yeares of age at the least 1. Tim. 5.9 neither were such Apostolicall constitutions to indure only for a time but vntill the comming of Christ as appeareth 1. Tim. 6.14 And whereas you say the Gospell after the Apostles times tooke deeper roote in mens minds it is meerely false it was indeed further propagated but the Church was neuer in after ages indued with the like measure of grace and extraordinarie giftes as it was in the Apostles times when they receiued the first fruits of the spirit And I would pray the Reader to consider that Duraeus doth confesse that in the first age of the Church single life was not so much desired of most and in later times they onely begâ—n to preferre continency before matriage But how much better it had been to haue kept the Apostolike institutions and to haue chaunged compelled continency for lawfull and holy marriage the lamentable euent hath sufficiently proued sixtie yeares old at least this Canon doth admit of those who are but fortie and yet notwithstanding permitteth them not to marrie But you will say they haue vowed single life First proue that they ought to make any such vowe and then that if they shall perceiue they can by no meanes performe their vowe that they haue done otherwise then they should when they married q DVR You say to vovv that vvhich vve cannot performe is to mocke God but this vve may performe seeing God bestovveth the vertue of continencie vpon those vvho seeke it by fasting and prayer and seeing the vestall Nuns and Aegyptian Priests atteined vnto it and vvines also vvhen their husbands are longe absent vpon necessary occasion WHIT. pag. 340. God granteth not all things wee pray for but those things which hee hath promised as appeareth in the example of S. Paul 2. Cor. 12.8 But we haue no promise of the gift of continency yea coÌ„trariwise Christ hath taught vs that all are not capable of it but those only to whoÌ„ it is giuen Matth. 19.11 the Apostle saith that it is a gift proper to some onely 1. Cor. 7.7 and therefore wee haue no ground absolutely to pray for it with assurance of being heard The vestall Nuns Aegyptian Priests are fit examples for your imitation who liued single but not chast and yet the Vestals might marrie when they were past thirtie yeares old and some Aegyptian Priests as appeareth Gen. 41.45 Concerning the chastitie of wiues in their husbands necessary absence the reason is not alike for it is one thing to impose vpon our selues a voluntary necessitie and another to vndergoe it when it is imposed by God God will keepe vs in our waies Psal 90.14 but not when wee rashly thrust our selues into needlesse difficulties To make a vow in things indifferent which you cannot possibly performe is to mocke God and to commit the crime of impious temeritie but to persist in this wicked vowe is a double sinne And therefore that which the law prescribeth is to be embraced The best course in euill promises made is not to obserue them and we are so to behaue our selues as Bernard counselleth his sister In euill promises keepe not touch Bernard ad Soror de modo bene viuendi Serm. 62. r DVR Bernard vvriteth not against the vovv of virginity but only vvilleth vs to breake a dishonest vovv neither is this booke you knovv thought to be his WHIT. pag. 342. It is not much materiall who was the author but his iudgement is to be embraced seeing then that is a dishonest vow the performance whereof is ioyned vvith dishonestie it follovveth that the vovv of single life is such vvhen as it causeth men to burne in the flame of lust and therefore is rather to be broken then obserued In a dishonest vowe change thy purpose Doe not performe that which thou hast vowed vnaduisedly for that promise is impious which is wickedly performed Now what can be more wicked and odious in the sight of God then to be inwardly inflamed with the fire of lust and to refuse that lawfull meanâ—â— whereby it might
gainsay that this Denys cannot be the partie you report him to be You then haue no reason to be angrie with Luther or Caussaeus if they handled this a DVR You say that Denyâ— is counterfeite but proue it by no reason But Origen Nazianzene Zophâ—ine Archbishop of Hierusalem Damascene Nicephorus Euthemius Dionysius Archbishop of Alexaâ—dria acknowledge his bookes him to haue been a disciple of S. Paul WHIT. pag. 357. But I say that Antiquitie was altogether ignorant of his bookes which could not be if they bad been written of Denys Arcâ—pagita for Eusâ—biu diligently searching out and setting downe all auncient writers and all thâ—â—r bookes and Epistles which they writ mentioneth not â—im nor his workes neither doe any 〈◊〉 the Greeke and Latin Fathers speake of him But who can thinke that the bookes of a disciple of Saint Paul should be vnknowne and not highly esteemedâ— of all in those daies Besides he citeth the Epistles of Igâ—â—tius as also the Gospell and Reuelation of S. Iohn which must needs be written diuers yeares after the death of Denys Arâ—â—pagita hee writeth an Epistle to Polycarpus and calleth him a ruler of the Church when at his detah Polycarpus must needs be very yong for Denys was slaine Anno Dom 96. Polycarpe died 1â—6 being but 86. yeares of age he calleth Timothy his sonne who was conuerted before euer that Arâ—â—pagita vvas he acknowledgeth that his maisters had their learning from the Apostles doth he not thereby deny himselfe S. Paules scholer finally the Church Hierarchie and all the names of the officers reckoned vp by him were neuer knowne in the Apostles time For your authors they are all new and late writers but two The first Origen whom Erasmus denieth Annot. in Act. 17. once to haue made mâ—otion of him in all his writings neither euer doth Nazianzene counterfeit somewhat roughly and censured him freely Where you say Caluin and the writers of the Centuries were offended with Ignatius Ignatius I confesse they had iust cause of offence If heretikes alleaged him to bee a patron of a wicked and detestable opinion Caluin might with reason and discretion reiect him how aptly and truly he was by them alleaged I cannot tell let them look to it Howsoeuer it be the truth ought not by his authoritie to be borne downe whose credit is little if any at all you are not ignorant what the iudgement of all the learned is those Epistles of Ignatius Eusebius indeed makes mention of some of his Epistles and Hierome of others but now many more goe vnder his name which they haue not mentioned Hierome b DVR If diuers of those things there cited out of him bee not to bee found hovv follovveth it that those works of his vvhich are extant bee forged and noue of his WHIT. pag. 360. From thence verely it will follow that his works are not perfect yea many things are found in his Epistles which are incredible to haue been taught in those daies as the strict keeping of Lent and fasting vpon the Sabbath daies yea it was but latelie that these Epistles were printed and published and so of the lesse credit and authority also reports a saying of his Hierâ—n Dial. 3. con Pel. Theod. Dial. 3. and Theodoret another which are not found in those Epistles which are caried about what would you haue more Gratian himselfe fauours not ouermuch this your Ignatius You see then of how obscure suspected and vncertaine reputation are these two which you place in the forefront of your armie You are offended that the Censors as you call them vpbraide Irenaeus as in some thing fantasticall We vse not to speake reprochfully of Irenaus whom we confesse to haue been both holy and learned but what is this to the purpose If Iraneus haue written something foolishly must be therefore by and by be wholy yours And if some where we haue noted his opinion as not true and sound doe we therefore reiect all his works Is this your manner of disputing Campian is this your skirmishing are you of opinion that neuer any word passed from Irenaeus vnaduisedly or which might iustly be tearmed vnreasonable Then tell c DVR You that acknovveledge and admit nothing but the Scriptures can by no argument confute this errâ—r WHIT. p. 362. What may worse beseeme a liuine then thus to speake What thinke you of these places Christ when he began to preach the Gospell was about thirtie yeares of age Luke 3.23 After his Baptisme Iohn maketh mention of three Pasleouers and that in the third he was put to death Is not the time then very plainely set downe and indeede what can be more plaine and casie Hence we may obserue that the Fathers haue plainely erred where you would hardly beleeue any man could erre me Campian Lib. 2. cap. 39.40 how Christ preached onely one yeare yet was baptized the thirtieth yeare of his age and died the fiftieth what shall we beleeue that Christ taught onely one yeare and that the fortieth yeare will you denie this to be a very new strange and almost franticke noueltie Besides that many write Irenaeus to haue been one of them whom the Fathers call Millenaries thinke you that was not a franticke opinion And can you doubt of Clemens whether hee hath sometimes sowne Tares what call you that where he denieth that Christ indeed did either hunger or thirst Againe that Christ taught but one yeere which he had of Irenaus Againe Clement Stromat lib. 3. idem lib. 1. idem lib. 5. that the Philosophers in hel expected the comming of Christ being taught by owne mouth beleeued Wil you deny those to be Tares and many of this kind are his to be found in the worthiest writers of that age If you denie it bring me one whom I will not conuince to haue erred by your owne iudgement You dare not say Tertul. we haue wronged Tertullian But you will vs to remember that the book of Prescriptions was neuer taxed which for ought I remember neuer was though I confesse that writing which you name is notable in which many things are written very diuinely against your Church d DVR But you tell vs not any one particular whereby this may appeare WHIT. pag. 365. I suppose you neuer read this booke or else you would not make doubt of it Is any thing more against your traditions then that hee pronounceth a curie to them that shall bring any doctrine but the selfe same which the nations receiued from the Apostles and they from Christ himselfe And that men cannot be otherwise perswaded of the things of faith then from the writings of faith when he gathereth from Christ sending of his Apostles that no Ministers are else to be receiue but such as Christ hath ordeined when whatsoeuer is later brought is forraine and false when he wâ—â—â—eth that faith must be built and borne vp vpon the writings of the Law and of the Prophets
offended with Basil Naziancene Leo and Chrysostome which haue published excellent Sermons of Lent Christ ordeined no set and ordinary fasts in the Gospell k DVR Who hath but so much as saluted the Fathers and knoweth not this to be salfe for the obseruation of Lent is most auncient and ordained by the Apostles WHIT. pag. 371. I deny it not to be most auncient but not instituted by the Apostles for Apollonius writeth that Montanus first made lawes for let and certaine fasts and Tertullian when hee was become a Montanist writeth as much in his booke wherein he defendeth the fasts of Montanus Againe the Apostles neuer put any religion in choise and change of meats Rom. 14.17 Coll. 2 16. Tit. 1 1â— and so ordeined not Lene Lastly the Churches of the Apostles differed much in this fast both in their times in their kinds of meat as Eusebius â—ocrates record which would neuer haue bin if it had bin Apostolical at least as Papists do affirme who take in for a truth that those Churches would faithfully persist in the Apostles decrees Lent was appointed long after and the manner of obseruing it in those times was not one the same in all Churches We both allow and vse publike and Christian fasts which are fitted to the time and the Churches occasions as for your appointed and yearely solemne fasts we do with good reason reiect them because they are full of superstition and iniurious vnto Christian liberty Our iudgement of fasting is the same which Augustine hath taught August Epist 86. I find it not set downe in any Commandement of the Lord or his Apostles what daies we ought to fast what not Augustine then knew not these your set yearely ceremonies of fasting not your Lenten fast which hath a certeine time and number of daies prescribed Further you say they that haue set their soules to sale for gold lust excesse and worldly ostentation how can they be but most opposite to Basil Chrysostome Hierome and Augustine whose bookes of the profession of Monkes are in euery mans hands what will you censure all to be couetous lustfull gluttonous or ambitious that are not Monkes backe with that foot you were best for feare of your head for neither the Pope nor his Cardinals and Bishops hold it either necessary or conuenient for them to lay aside their abundant wealth continuall pleasures their dainty fare their kingly honor and thrust themselues into a Monasterie whosoeuer liueth after their fashion cannot be well affected to Basil nor any man that is holy l DVR VVhen you are ouercome by the truth you slander our liues and speake euill of our persons WHIT. pag. 377. I do not slander you nor detract from you the world hath vnderstood long agoe what manner of men you vvere If you be grovvne better I should be glad of it But I knovv men haue iudged othervvise of this order and such as did not hate your Monasticall life For the Romish Cardinals and Priors did vvrite thus to the Pope himself There is another abuse amongst the orders of religious men for many are so deformed and out of order that they are a great scandale to the people and hurt much by their example VVe thinke that all orders ought to be abolished For they are altogether so drowned in sensuality and excesse making themselues drudges vnto their ambitions banquets and delights And to conclude in the whole course of their liues so behauing themselues as becommeth better sensuall and voluptuous persons proceeding out of the gardens of Epicures then graue teachers out of Christs Schoole Who knoweth not that the whole world crieth shame vpon you and hath done continually and most deseruedly you for all that blush not to lay those things to our charge which are well inough knowne to bee your owne fault your Prelates and Monkes whose goodly order and straite rule of seuere discipline you report differ as much from other men as the Tarrentines were wont to affirme that they excelled all others who giuing themselues wholy ouer to pleasures while the most tooke great paines and alwaies did something whereby to liue thought their life the only true life Such is and hath bin your life that others must seeme not to liue if that be to liue which you haue esteemed But what need I answere you any more of fasting and Monkish orders which haue not one Monke in your whole Church any thing resembling those of auncient time neither do you obserue the old manner of fasting but you goe on and vpbraide vs with fouler matters They that haue brought a bondage vpon mans will which haue taken away Christian funerals which haue burned Saints reliques can they say you be well pleased with Augustine we Campion haue wronged no Saints we haue neither burned their reliques nor taken away their funerals m DVR Therefore you haue taken away the reliques of the Saints and the funerals of Christians as superstitions and iniurious to the maiestie of God WHIT. pag. 370. Are you so vvithout iudgement that you cannot distinguish betvvixt things and the superstitious vse of them It is not these not any comely buriall vve dislike but Popish pompcions funerals and impious vvorshipping of reliques only we could not suffer any prophane superstition iniurious to the Maiestie and glorie of God and for this we haue the direction of God himselfe being our patterne whom we follow and Augustine also herein consenteth with vs But we haue captiuated the will of man and then you say how can we be well affected vnto Augustine well inough why not for say you he writ three bookes of free will A most witles and ridiculous collection Augustine writ three bookes of freewill ergo Augustine affirmeth that men haue freewill If that reason be currant then this also Augustine writ a booke of two soules against the Manichees also a booke of lying another of the quantity of the soule ergo Augustine defendeth two soules in a man ergo he praised lying ergo he attributeth greatnes quantity to the soule I pray you what difference is there I graunt Augustine writ those bookes you mention but they ouerthrow not our opinion who affirme that the will of man is in bondage if euer you had perused those bookes you would neuer haue affirmed it nor once named the bookes in this matter Augustine writ these bookes against the Manichees wherein he disputeth not of mans freewill which is the point in controuersie but of the cause of sinne which proceeded from freewill and he entituled those bookes of freewill because in them he intendeth to shew that the originall and beginning of sinne is to be found in mans freewill not in God This you might easily haue learned out of his retractations for thus he writeth Retract lib. 1.1 q. The discourse was vndertaken for them that deny sin to haue his originall from the free action of our will affirming that from this
euer flourish But it is nothing to vs and you Church of Rome was then the preseruer of Religion the maintainer of the true faith and shined like a starre in the sight of all other Churches no maruell then though the most holy Fathers esteemed much the reuerence of this Church vrged the heretikes with the example of it Irenaeus August as a great preiudice vnto them Hence it is that sometimes they alledge the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome therby prouing that the heresies by them refuted were not heard of in the most famous and honorable Church But since that time the course of the Church is turned and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith to detestable falshood Restore vs Campian the old Church of Rome and we will neuer separate our selues from her but of that Church you haue nothing left but the walles and old rubbish yet still you bragge of the name of the Catholike Church And whereas you mention Altars on which the members of Christ are carried and Chalices containing his blood I know well many things concerning Altars are to be found in the auncient Fathers which Altars in Africa were not of stone but r DVR VVhat difference is there the Donatists ouerthrew vvoodden Altany and you Altars of stone WHIT pag. 389. They troubled sacred tables by their sacriledge not reprouing the administration of the Sacrament but the ordination of Bishops which yet was lawfull we haue cast downe Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Masse and prophane Idolatry Is there no difference thinke you woodden as you may see in Augustines Epistle to Boniface and I graunt the members of Christ and his Å¿ DVR Optatus writeth that the body of Christ dwelleth vpon the Altar WHIT. pag. 390. I answere that the sacrament of the body of Christ is after a sort Christs body and the name of the thing is giuen to the signe as is vsuall in all Sacraments For the body of Christ is no where properly but in heauen at the right hand of his Father where it shall remaine to the end of the world blood are receiued in the holy mysteries but after a heauenly and spiritual manner Epist 50. appropriate vnto our most holy faith As for your deuouring of flesh Optatus was not acquainted with it and the auncient Church of Christ not so much as euer dreamed of so great a monster They sing say you in their Churches the Creed of Athanasius but they fauour him not and why because he praiseth Antony the Hermit You speake wisely as t DVR But doe you thinke Hermits are worthy of any praise whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony WHIT. pag. 391. Graunt vve vvell approue of the old Hermits yet may we thinke bad enough of your Monkes as vve haue done and professe it for iust causes seeing they differ both so much in manners and iudgements Antonius the Hermits grandfather vvas vvont to say that it was as dangerous for a Monke to go out of his hermitage as for fishes to leaue the water If you praise Antony so much vvhy do you not follovv him vvhy do you svvarme in all cities and famous places and doe not rather liue in some remote wildernesse as fishes swim in the Sea so should you be more like to Antony and free these parts from great damage though we were so enuious that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised nay there is somewhat else Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2. He with his Synode of Alexandria humblie appealed vnto the sentence of the Apostolike Sea this Epistle is all counterfeit compacted of many lies and monstrous flattery Prudentius I grant as a u DVR Because he was a Poet forgate hee to be a Christian or did he any thing in verse which infinit learned â—athers haue not done before in prose WHIT. pag. 392. Who knovveth not that Poets vvere vvont to vveigh vvhat the verse required more then vvhat piety called for and to follovv the elegancy of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault vvith yet see hovv foolish it is to auovv poeticall exornations for reasons in the controuersies of religion And if Prudentius follovved so many Fathers vvhy name you not one of them For 300. yeares after Christ there vvas no such custome in the Church vvhich you affirme so infinite a number of Fathers vsed and it rose vp in the Church but a little before Prudentius daies but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the vvord Poet sometimes called vpon the Martyrs whose acts he describes in verse and the superstitious custome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error As for Vigillantius and Iouinian against whom Hirrâ—â—â—â— writeth most bitterly if they taught those things that are laid to their charge we maintaine them not That * DVR It seemeth you haue nothing to answere to Ambrose at all WHIT. pag. 393. Haue I answered nothing when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church was it not answere enough to shew I allowed not the corrupt iudgement of some Fathers What gaine you by this if we professe freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamentall points whereas notorious corruption hath spread it selfe ouer your whole Church coÌ„sumed it the beginnings of corruptions in them is growne to an height in you without hope of cure Ambrose should be carefull to commend and set sorth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius we willingly permit Neither doe we wholy mislike Gregory with whom surely you haue more cause to be offended then we But wheras he said that Images were lay-mens bookes hee neither learned in x DVR Answere me in vvhat schoole did you learne to breake downe Images not in the schooles of Christians but of Iewes WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the schoole of the holy Ghost Deut 5.8 Iosh 24.23 where wee are taught to worship one God with religious worship and to cast out of the Church to breake and burne the Images of men though neuer so holy Moses beate the Calfe to powder the holy Ghost commended Hezâ—â—â—a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent though it was set vp by Godâ— authority when the Israelits abused it to superâ—â—â—ion how much more ought we to destroy prophane Images monuments of cursed idolatrie Epiphanius being taught in this schoole rent the vaile which was hung vp in the temple hauing painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia who tooke downe broke the Images of his time I haue learned this then not out of the schooles of
fathers themselues For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles because you saw that was too slender and that no man would iumpe with you in that point you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers Now the strength and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this a DVR Campian doth not dispute so but say he do what reproue you for he speaketh not of one Father but of the consent of all vvho flourished in one age whom Saint Paul saith Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church Eph. 4.11 WHIT. pag. 408. Then as you confesse I swarued not much from his sense But thinke you the reason is of force The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation If iâ— hold in the Fathers why not in others vvhich do search the Scriptures as vvell as they vvhich if you once grant you ouerturne your owne cause And though they were Pastors of the Church yet vvere there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church vvho either vvrit nothing at all or their vvritings are perished so that vvhat they deliuered vve possibly cannot knovv vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the most flourishing age that euer vvas vvhose bookes came to our hands Besides the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs except it vvere in the most corrupt ages Lastly the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church vvere men such as might erre and vvho had no promise to be kept from error if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures The Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures they haue attributed the chiefe place to these therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures and without sinne wee may desire no better This either is the sense of this place or else there is no sense in it And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie that I can hardlie discerne their scope for what I pray you can bee spoken more loosely The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers which all may well be false but more then one of them cannot be true I will giue you one example for a thousand b DVR VVe confesse euery Father may errâ— but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error which vvas contrary to faith WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith vvhether S. Paul lyed or vvhether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly then may it be lavvfull for vs to dissemble and after confirme it vvith a lye both vvhich are contrary to sound doctrine But particular dissentions you stand not vpon you desire to see some generall vvhen you grant euery particular may erre vvill it not follovv that all may But see an example In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon yea and by a third Councell held in Germany this decree vvas againe condemned One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued Againe haue you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Bishop of Rome other Bishops of the Church did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants vvhich error continued a long time in the Church Thinke you these are not points of faith S. Paul writeth Gala. 2.11 that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face what a kinde of opposition this was you would know but cannot of your selfe find it out You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter one Apostle another and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it you goe to the fathers you enquire of Hierome August Hieron in Epistol and of Augustine two very famous lights of the Latine Church What do they tell you Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly If you approue the one you must needs reiect the other for you cannot consent with both Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you I know how sayth Hierome otherwise to account of the Apostles then of other writers Hieron in Epist. ad Theophilis They euer spâ—â—kâ— the trâ—â—â— these as man haue erred in some things Yet they read the Scriptures they were conuersant in them and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust and our defence most equall and iust I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations so you will confesse they are men extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens where they are now free Denizens I could wish that that which they constantly did either you would do search the Scripture or suffer vs to do then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice and commended to our diligent search you flie from and abhorre as theeues doe the gallowes you abandon them out of mens sight and yet you haue neuer done searching for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried mens inuentions decrees of Popes the corruptions of Churches fained and forged bookes diriges scrappes dreames and fables but the holy Scripture you touch not at all lest as I suppose they would make against you At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after and search the Scriptures c DVR VVe allow all to read the Scriptures as many as can vvell and safely do it And then vve account the search good and sound vvhen men are able to interpret them not out of their ovvne heads but by the authority of the auncient Fathers WHIT pag. 415. You shew your good nature that you will not reproue that which is well done But may none else reade the Scriptures but men qualified as you write then very few must spend their labour in them But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers yea and he commaunded all whosoeuer to seeke eternall life and desire to know Christ Joh. 5.39 and not the learned only as Christ hath commaunded Origen in Isas hom 1. and the ancient fathers haue done And would to God as Origen writeth we all would doe that which is written Search the
himselfe which Iohn of Constantinâ—ple neuer once assayed to do Gregory telleth vs what he meaneth by vniuersall Bishop he vvho endeuoureth to bring into subiection to himselfe all the members of Christ by the title of vniuersall Whereby he toucheth home your Pope who subiecteth all the members of Christ to himself as to their head neither did euer any Emperour rule more tyrannously ouer his Kings and vassals then the Pope hath ouer the Bishops of all Churches vniuersall Bishop vndoubtedly was the forerunner of Antichrist Touching which title there hath been deadly hatred and bloody contentions betwixt the Bishops of Constantinople and Rome Iohn of Constantinople being a proud man and very insolent and ambitious first challenged this vnto himselfe Gregory while hee liued earnestly and constantly withstood him And within a while after this title was taken from the Bishop of Constantinople and giuen to the Bishop of Rome Leaue trifling Campian and euen tell me plainely y DVR VVho seeth not in vvhat sense thâ—se Bishops of Rome vvould not this name vnto themselues though they alwaies professed them Bishops of the vniuersall and Catholike Church and the Vicars of Christ. WHIT pag. 463. It seemeth you did not meane to be vnderstood of any who speake on this manner but tell vs is the Pope vniuersall Bishop or no If he be how commeth the change that that which was Antichristian in the Patriarke of Constantinople by the iudgement of Pelagius Gregorie both Bishops of Rome should be Catholike and holy in the Pope For that which so insolently Iohn of Constantinople tooke vnto himselfe and enioyed for a while not long after Boniface the third earnestly tooke vnto himselfe and translated to his successors as saith Platina in vita Bonifac. 3. Sabellicus Ennead 8. lib. 6. Vispergensis in Phoca They then haue not only the thing but the name and so are Antichristian if that name in the Bishop of Constantinople was a signe of the approching of Antichrist why may wee not iudge it in the Bishop of Rome a notable ensigne of the same Antichrist now I haue giuen you a taste by which you may iudge other things you must either get you other fathers or for all these you must needes yeeld as ouercome Doe wee at length speake without riddles what is it you els desire of vs wherefore Campian get you into this campe and shew forth all your valour you shall verily finde you haue to deale not with naked and vnarmed beggars but with well appointed and well harnessed aduersaries EDMVND CAMPIAN The seauenth Reason which is the Historie THe auncient Histories of former times do plainly discouer the true forme of the Primitiue Church thither doe I appeale as for the auncient Historiographers Generales Historici whose authority all the aduersaries doe sometime vsurpe these are well nigh all of them Eusebius Damasus Hierome Ruffinus Orosas Socrates Sozomenus Theodoretus Cassiodorus Gregory of Tours Oswaldus Regino Marianus Sigibertus Sonoras Cedrenus Nicephorus What song I pray you doe these men sing a song in praise of Catholikes of their prosperous proceedings of their interchangeable alterations what enemies they had yea moreouer which I would haue you wel to mark these men which are our daily enemies for our Religion sake HareticoruÌ„ Chronica Historica Anno Dom. 1500. to wit Philip Melangthon Pantalion Functius and the Magdeburgeans when they went about to write either Chronicle or Ecclesiasticall History they should haue had nothing at all to write of for the space of 1500. yeares after Christ except they had gathered together the acts of those men that take our part and put in writing the treacheries and outrages of the enemies of our Church Consider also the particular Historiographers of some speciall countries Historici certarum Gentium who bended themselues curiously and busily to search out the speciall affaires of euery such people as they vndertooke to write of These as men desirous by all meanes they possibly could to enrich and beautifie that worke they had in hand omitted not so much as banquetting feasts or long sleeued coates or strange haftes of daggers or gilded spurres and such like trifles but they made mention thereof if it had any smacke of noueltie These men doubtlesse if there had been any alteration in religion or any digression from their former faith which was in the Primitiue Church that had come to their eares many of theÌ„ would haue recorded it if not many yet some few of them at the least if not some few yet some one or other doubtlesse would haue made mention thereof * This is false for many haue made mention of the corruption of the Church But no body at all neither friend nor foe made any muttering or gaue any inkling of any such matter As for example sake the aduersaries grant because they cannot otherwise chuse that the Church of Rome was once an holy Catholike and Apostolike Church euen then when it deserued these commendations of a Rom. 1. S. Paul Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world I cease not to remember you in my prayers I b Rom. 15. know that when I come vnto you I shall come in the abundance of the blessings of c Rom. 16. Christ All the Churches of Christ do greet you for your obedience is spread abroad in all places Then also when S. Paul hauing free d Act. 28. liberty of the prison there preached the Gospell abroad Then also when S. Peter gouerned the Church gathered together long agoe in that Citie of Rome which hee called by the e 1. Pet. 5. name of Babylon * Campian acknowledgeth that Rome is Bayblon The wheÌ„ that same S. f Hieron in cap. semp Eccl. Papias apud Eâ—sâ—b 2. Hist. 15. Clement whom the g Philip. 4. Apostle so highly commendeth was chiefe head of that Church then also when h Fren. lib. 3. cap. 3. Inst lib. 4. cap. 2. num 3. in Epist ad Sadol vide Coâ—l in Anno 1523. Heathen Emperours as Domitian Nero Traiane and Antonius most cruelly murthered the Bishops of Rome Then also * This is false Caluin testifieth no such thing Caluin himselfe doth witnes * This is false Caluin testifieth no such thing when Damasus Syticius Anastasius and Innocentius were gouernours of the Sea Apostolike For at this time he freely confesseth that men nothing swarued especially at Rome from the true doctrine of the Gospell At what time then hath Rome lost this faith so highly commended by S. Paul when fainted faith which before so flourished In what age vnder what Pole vpon what occasion by whose compulsion by whose power hath a new strange Religion inuaded not only that citie of Rome but the whole world besides what outcries what rufflings what weeping and wailing hath it caused were all men in all the world besides in a dead sleepe while Rome I say Rome brought forth
away Aeneas take Pius What shal I further recite Petrarch Mantuan and other Poets both learned and famous which feared not with Satiricall verses to inueigh against the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergie all things were then so out of order that all sinnes might without controulâ—â—ent both be practised and openly blamed I need not to seeke farre remember what Cornelius Bishop of Bicontine not many yeares agoe at the Councell of Trent spake openly in the presence and audience of the whole Church whose witnes must needs be strong and effectuall against you though of it selfe it bee little worth Thus he saith Cornel. Bicontin in concil Crident Would to God they had not all with one consent turned from religion to superstition from faith to infidelity from Christ to Antichrist from God to Epicurisme Behold the Marks of your Church suâ—â—â—stition infidelity Antichrist Epicure for all this you are not ashamed to affirme that no Historie either yours or ours hath bewrayed or testified any such matter But Campian the more you defend the integrity of your Church the more you cause vs to manifest the corruptions of it Our aduersaries say you doe grant that the Romane Church was once a holy Church This we confesle and that then it was holy when Paul published those her worthie praise which you remember and yet those praises by you mentioned doe not belong to that Church alone but were giuen also to other Churches Rom. 1. â— For what if the faith of the Romanes were published in the whole world this was no proper or peculiar priuiledge of that Church Hath not the Apostle written asmuch of the Church of Thessalonica 1. Thess 1.8 Your faith to wards God is spread in all places What if hee made mention of the Romanes without ceasing Rom. 1.9 so did he also incessantly remember the Thessalonians 1. Thess 1.3 What though he doubted not but hee should come vnto the Romanes in abundance of the blessing of Christ Rom. 15.29 thinke you his comming into other Churches was lesse fruitfull Rom. 16.19 What if all Churches saluted the Romanes and their obedience was euery where spoken of know you not that all the Saints vsed to salute one another or suppose you that other Churches were not as obedient to the Apostles as this But we grant you that at this time it was holy what would you more Act. 28. Then also when Paul preached the Gospell there in his fauourable restraint This also wee grant what more 1. Pet. 5.13 And then also when Peter gathered and gouerned the Church there calling it Babylon We deny not this And though I can be well content that you call Rome Babylon for I doubt not but it is the same of which h DVR Saint Iohn speaketh of Rome vvhen it yet abhorred the saith of Christ aâ—d persecuted Christians WHIT. pag. 512. Nay S. Jâ—â—n described Rome as it was restored and reedified by Antichrist for when â—e wâ—â—teth Apoc 18. â— who seeth not that this cannot be vnderstood of auncient Rome but of Rome when it was the habitation of Saints rather then Diuels and the hold of the Spirit of God rather then foule spirits Iohn writes so much in the Reuelation the mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth yet I cannot be so easily perswaded that i DVR Yet Oecumenius Hierome Eusebius Tertullian to say nothing of others do graunt it And to make question of Peters being at Rome is as if you should doubt whether euer Romulus Iulius Caeser or Pompeie was there For if Cyprian Eusebius Doâ—oâ—heus Epiphanius Optatus Hicrom and many others may not be beleeued vvhat shall euer be certeine in any History WHIT pag. 508. All these testimonies proue nothing that I haue either doubted of or denied for I desire authority of Scriptures not the opinions of men I desire euery man who desireth saluation to weigh this one thing well That whereas the whole gouernment Hierarchy of the Papacie hangeth on this soundation that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome yet they haue no word in the Scriptures to shew that he euer was so and so the whole Papacie is hanged vpon the coniectures of men as vpon a rotten threed for what if many Histories say he was there if the Scripture say no such thing what assurance can be of it for matter of faith the mind must needs bee suspicious and doubtfull it is true that the receiued opinion is that hee was there But who knoweth not that that which one deliuereth at the first may increase by fame and be by many reserued to posterity At the first an auncient writer mentioned S. Peters apposing of Symon Magus and saith it was at Rome and him haue many followed since and hence from the common rumors and suspiâ—ions of men sprung vp the Popes chairâ— And who shall then giue assurance of faith in this thing when there is no place of Scripture for it nay when many places are against it These specially Galat. 2.7.9 Now if S. Peter should be Bishop of Rome for so many yeares it vvas against both his order of life and his faith Act. 28.22.23 Novv they could not be so ignorant if that S. Peter for so many yeares before had gouerned that Church S. Paul abode in Rome tvvo yeares and thence writ many Epâ—stles and in them spake of many of the brethren but neuer once named S. Peter supole you hee vvould bee tvvo yeares from his Church Galat. 2.1.2 But he ought rather to haue been at Rome as a good Bishop ought to be vvith his flocke vnlesse you can proue he might substitute a Vicar Besides the Histories themselues are in such â—ariety of opinions that you can hardly tell vvhom to follovv some say he came â—o Rome in the first yeare of Claudâ—us the Emperour some in the second some in the fouâ—â—â— and some in the tenth yeare and it may be that none of these is true sure it is all cannot be true Peter meanes Rome in this place here Campian you are alwaies at a nonplus could yet neuer proâ—ue that Peter was at Rome But you take this for granted and as alreadie prooued which if any man once deny then like the Mathematicians you haue done and can goe no further But why may I not reasonably think that Peter meaneth that Babylon which once was the chiefe Citie of the Assiâ—ians in which Citie certeinly were many Iewes Galat. 2.9 vnto whom Peter was appointed Apostle peculiarly If I should set downe that which I could alleage in this cause I feare I should trie your patience too much In the meane time I allow well your confession that Rome is Babylon and hereafter at your leisure you may declare vpon what occasion the name of it was altered You may not now bee angrie with vs if following Peters example from hencefoorth wee also call Rome Babylon Now I hope at length you will rest and be
satisfied Nay but you proceed still vnto the ages that succeeded Then when Clemens gouerned the Church then also when the Heathen Emperours massacred the Bishops of Rome Euen then I confesse Rome was an excellent Church of Christ Will this content you Nay further you say Then also when Damasus Siricius Anastasius Innocentius executed the Apostolike function This is not to discend by degrees but to leape for you hasten too fast from the forenamed to these But how will you perswade vs to yeeld you thus much Because Caluin as you say frankly confesseth Iâ—st lib. 4. cap. 2. sâ—ct 3 Epist ad Sadâ—l that as yet they had not digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell Doe not you Campian catch hold of that which no man will giue you nor be too confident of others liberalitie Caluin doth not grant that which you take for granted therefore you must redeliuer it Caluin in that place answereth to your ouerworne argument of succession and she weth that the purpose of the Fathers when they alleaged the succession of Bishops was not to proue those to be true Churches where Bishops succeeded one another but this first they assumed as most certaine that from the beginning of the Church vnto the ages whereof they speake there was no alteration in religion and thus they opposed to the new broched errors that doctrine which from the times of the Apostles was still preserued in the Church Caluin then saith not that they had k DVR Do you acknowledge it to bee the Church of Christ vvhich swarueth and strayeth from the Apostles doctrine vvhat can be spâ—ken more absurdly WHIT. pag. 513. You that obiect absurditie to others are most absurde your selfe for vvâ—â— not the Church of the lewes euen then when it abounded with many errors the Church of God The Corinthians and Galathians when they had many waies declined from the doctrine of the Gospell yet S. Paul saluted them 〈◊〉 Churches 1 Cor. 1.2 Gal. 1.2 which he would not haue done if he had not acknowledged them to be Churches for all their errors altered nothing in any point of faith but that the Fathers vsed this argument of succession onely in those cases wherein it might appeare they had innouated and altered nothing Wherefore as we grant that the Church of Rome in the time of these Bishops was the true Church of Christ but that they in nothing digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell that Caluin neuer confessed and wee constantly denie To say nothing of the rest Thus l DVR This error is common to you and many of your felloâ—es for Syricius vvas not the first vve haâ—e a direct Canon of the Councell of Carthage vvhich numbreth this among the Apostolike trâ—ditions Carthag 1. Can. 2. so hath Clemenâ— it in his Epistle to S. Iames the Lords brother Amongest the Grecians the custome of the Priests waâ— not to keepe their wiues as wiues which they bad before their Priest-bood Epiphan hâ—â—rel 59. And Hierome against Viâ—ilantius vigeth this auncient custome of the Church WHIT. pag. 514. But your Gratian writeth that Syritius was the first maker of this impious law The which many Priests before him of their owne acccrd embraced single life yet none was compelled by law against his will and as for the Councell of Carthage it was held in the time of this Syricius And so not before him for your Clemeâ—s you knovv hee is of no vvorth but a meere counterfeite That you report of the Grecians is incredible vvhen as in the Councell of Nice Paphuntius hindred this lavv neither vvould the Grecians euer endure this snare Hierome indeed produceth an old custome but no Apostolike nor yet perpetuall custome Syricius swarued from the doctrine of the Gospell when he intangled the Ministers of the word with the snares of inforced continencie and this doubtlesse was no small digression but a plaine departing froÌ„ the m DVR VVhat Catholike euer said that marriage was euill S. Paul teacheth vs to take beedo of the Manichies and Gnostikes and other heretikes of that sort WHIT. pag. 516. To your question my ansvvere is easie your Syricius and Innocent vvhen they feared Ministers from marriage vsed those reasons vvhich either condemned marriages simplie or els they conclude nothing For vvhen they thus reason Priests may not marrie because they must be the temple and the vessell of the Lord and the Chappell of the holy Ghost therefore they ought not to giue themselues to chambering and vncleannes because they ought to be holy because they shall bee polluted vvith carnall concupiscence and to the vncleane all things are vncleane because they vvho are in the flesh cannot please God What I pray you is this else but to affirme that marriages are euill impure and vvicked Make these then no Catholikes or else your question is ansvvered To tye S. Paul to those auncient heretikes only is absurde as if he deliuered not a perpetuall doctrine for all times yea and he hath taxed not those only vvho condemne marriage but vvho forbid them vvhich cannot be denied but your Pope and Church doth Apostolike doctrine 1. Tim. 4.3 Heb. 13.4 Now at length you make a stay and pursue the histories of the Church no further only you demaund when Rome ceased to be as formerly it had bin vnto which question we haue sufficiently answered If you make doubt whether it now bee the same it was you may also if you list doubt whether the sunne shine at noone For this is as cleere and without question as that the present citie of Rome is become vnlike the auncient flourishing Romans common wealth And as hee could not find Samnius in Samnius and the other of whom the Epigram speaketh wittily who found nought of Rome in the middest of Rome So if you would now in the present n DVR VVhat impudencie is this there vvas neuer heresie that assaulted this Church of vvhich it caried not the victorie As ouer the Donatists Iouinian Pelagius the Britaine and others WHIT. pag. 521. I contempe your reproches and stand to that I haue saide The Church of Rome vvhich once flourished is novv so oppressed vvith Antichrist that besides the outvvard face image countenance of a Church a vaine pompe there is nothing else left in it There is no vvord but it is corrupted vvith pestiferous leaued no Sacrament but polluted vvith sacriledge and corruption no discipline but Antichristian I passe not for your Popes chaire your Colledge of Cardinals the glorie of your Bishops your Priests Monkes Temples riches nothing moue me I search for a liuing Church not bare walles for a man not a picture for a body not a shadow as for your criumphes you boast of they are no more proper to the true Church then the triumphes of old Rome ouer Pyrrhus Anniball Perses Antiochus are to be esteemed the triumphes of Rome novv being Finally as for Pelagius he triumphed ouer the whole Popish kingdome For
did he not teach that grace was inbred in nature and your Popish crevv defendeth the same who seeth not then Pelagius sitting in your triumphant chariot Romish Church seek for the auncient Church of Rome you shall neuer find it for shee hath now lost not the life only but the very colour and appearance of the true Church Seeing therefore all other things faile you and also Histories themselues on which you seemed much to relie helpe you nothing what remaineth but one of these two either must you yeeld before the battaile or die in the battaile I wish you would once at length take knowledge of that which Nazianzen writeth We haue learned it to bee commendable aswell to yeeld vnto reason as with reason to ouercome EDMVND CAMPIAN The eighth Reason which is the Paradoxes of our aduersaries WHen that most excellent men I reuolue in my mind amongst many heresies wherewith I haue to doe certaine moÌ„strous opinions of such as are fantasticallie giuen I could not but condemne my self of slouthfulnes and cowardlines if making triall thereof I should bee afraid of any mans actiuitie and strength let him be as eloquent as yee would wish let him be as much exercised as you would desire yea let him be one that hath throughly studied all sorts of books yet must he needs be to seeke both for matter and words also when he shall vndertake to maintaine those his vnpossible propositions as follow for if he perhaps will giue his consent we will dispute of God of Christ of Man of sinne of Iustice of Sacraments and of Manners I will trie whether they dare maintaine their opinions such sayings as they lingring after their owne lure haue bruted abroad by their writings God graunt they will acknowledge these their owne a De Deo Cal. Inst lib. 1. cap. 18. lib 2. cap. 4. lib. 3. cap. 23. 24. Pet. Mart. in 1. Sam. 2. Methanct in cap. Rom. 8. VVittem 1524. Sic docet Luther in asser 36. in resol asser 36. in lib. de ser arbit Praesat in anno Phil. In Apol. Eccl. Ang. Vide Ench. pre an 1543 axiomes * This is most false not any one of our men haue affirmed that God is the author of sinne God is the author and cause of sinne willing prompting making commaunding and working it and their gouerning the wicked counsels of naughty men * This is false we do not so compare togither The adultery of Dauid and the treason of the Traitor Iudas was as properly the worke of God as the calling of S. Paul was This monstrous doctrine whereof Philip Melancthon was once ashamed yet Martin Luther from whose brest Philip suckt the same as highly extolleth as though it had been some heauenly oracle and therefore matcheth his said scholler in a manner with the Apostle S. Paul I will demaund also what mind Luther was of whom the English Caluinists affirme to haue been a man sent from God to lighten the Word when hee razed out of the Letany vsed in the Church this verse O blessed Trinitie and one God haue mercy vpon vs then in order I will proceed to the person of o De Christ Inst lib. 1. c. 13. nu 23. 24. Beza in Hess Beza contra Schmidel lib. de vnit Hypost dua in Christ. nat Christ demaund of them what these Paradoxes meane whereas the Catholike Church holdeth that Christ is the Son of God and God of God * Christ is Son of the Father but God of himselfe Caluin saith that Christ is God of himselfe and Beza affirmeth that he was not begotten of the substance of the Father also be it agreed saith he that there are in Christ two vnions consisting in one substance the one of the soule with the flesh and the other of the Diuinity with the humanity That place of S. c Caluin in Ioh. 10. v. 30 Iohn I and the Father are one doth not proue that Christ is God of one substance with God the Father yea and my soule * This is false reade the answere saith d Luther cont Laton Luther cannot brooke this word Homouotin Proceed yee forward e Bucer in Lu. 2. Calu. in â—ar Eu. Christ from his infancie was not full of grace but daily encreased in gifts of the mind as other men vsually doe and waxed wiser through experience euery daie more then other so that in his childhood he was subiect to f Luth. Loss Hem. Mela. in Euang. de 1. post Epist Marl. in Matt. 26. Cal. in Har. Euan Brentius in Luc. par 2. Hom. 65. in Catech. an 1551. in Ioh. Hom. 54. ignorance which is all one as if they should say that Christ was corrupted with the spot and staine of * This is false for all ignorance riseth not from originall corruption originall sinne But listen and you shall know more pernitious doctrine then this Christ when he praied in the garden and plentifully sweat both water and blood trembled through feare and sensiblie feeling of eternall damnation vttered certaine speeches without reason and without consent of the inward spirit yea speeches without consideration through the vehemencie of his griefe the which speeches as vnaduisedly spoken he quickly corrected Is there any more such stuff giue diligeÌ„t eare Christ wheÌ„ he cried out with a loud voice hanging on the Crosse My God my God why hast thou forsaken me was tormented with the flames of hell fire he let ouer-slip * This is false neither Birutius nor any of our men euer said so him g Caluin in Har. Euang. in eand sent Loss in Matth. 26. desperate speeches being no otherwise affectioned then if he should haue died an eternall death if they haue any worse stuffe then this let them emptie their gorge Christ they saie descended into hell that is Christ after he was dead tasted of the paines of hell nowhit h Schmidel conci de Pass câ—â—ua Dom. Aepinus Com. in Psal 16. lesse then the damned soules doe sauing that he was to be restored againe for as much as by his corporall death he could haue profited vs nothing it was therefore requisit that his i Caluin Instit lib. 2. cap. 16. Bren. in Catechis 1551. soule also should striue with eternall death and in this manner to tolerate the paine and paye the ransome of our sins And lest peraduenture any man should suspect that this escaped Caluin by ouersight the said k Instit lib. 2 cap. 16. nu 12. Caluin calleth you all forlorne knaues if any of you haue debated vpon this * They who deny this doctrine to be full of comfort may worthily be accounted desperate men comfortable doctrine oh cursed times oh cursed daies what miserable doctrine haue you bred vp Hath that precious and princely blood which gushed out of the torne pierced side of that most innocent Lambe Christ Iesus euery little drop of which blood for the worthines
some filthines About the most of which seeing that you haue had an answere made you by him whom you name Reuerend Charke I maruell that you haue returned them to vs heere againe There must needs be great lacke of true imputations seeing that you haue no varietie at all of false ones And seeing that my fellow souldier and companion in Christ William Charke did labour diligeÌ„tly in these things those things which are largely enough confuted by him shall bee run ouer now by mee briefely and shortly It shall bee therefore enough for mee to cut in sunder these your peeces which haue been before so broken in shiuers as that they might seeme able to hurt none Wherefore now spue out these your morsels of reproches And heare ye them If the wife will not or cannot let the maid come A filthie and vncleanely speech as it seemeth Luther wrote a little booke of marriage in the second part whereof hee remembers three causes whereby hee thinketh marriage may be dissolued The first is Impotencie another is Adultrie the third is Desertion Now hee expoundes that to be desertion when as the wilful and obstinate wise can by no meanes bee perswaded to performe the office of due benouelence to the husband for there are some such froward wiues found that although the husband doe fall ten times into whordome yet they regard it neuer a whit Wherefore Luther thinketh it fit for the husband to fray his wife with words and to threaten hir on this manner If you will not another will If the mistrisse will not let the maide come With whom if threats preuaile not let him conuent her before others and bring the matter to the Church But now if she be neither moued with priuate threatnings nor by the publike reproofes of the Church then saith Luther diuorce her and take Ester into Vashties place Only to propouÌ„d these things in this maÌ„ner is a very euident confutation of Campians reproch For who doth not marke what counsaile Luther gaue to the husband not that he should presently take his mayd but that he should propose threats of diuorce to his obstinate wife and breake her stomacke by that meane Now as for this opinion of Luther about this kind of diuorce though I doe not defend yet you cannot accuse it c DVR You are ignorant that vvith vs only adultery is the cause of diuorce WHIT. pag. 688. Nay you are ignorant of your owne Canons for to omit others see what the Tridentine Fathers decreed If any shall say that the Church doth erre vvheÌ„ shee decreeth that for many causes diuoâ—ce from bâ—dde and cobabitation may be had either for a certaine or vnlimited time let him be accursed Do not you now differ from your owne Councell as alâ—o from the Apostle For among you there be infinite causes of diuorce so as in so great liberty of diuorce it is maruaile that any marriage stood in force If Luther had at any time written any such thing as wee reade was written by Clement whom you brag to haue beene Pope of Rome what tragedies would yee haue raised Heare Campian I would haue you marke whereto this speech tendeth d DVR If you had seene some old copies or vvaighed the scope of the Epistle you might easilie haue seene that the place is corrupted WHIT. pag. 689. I can be content you should defend Clement for I easily thinke that Clement would neuer speake so dishonestly But when you father Epistles vpon auncient Bishops such as they neuer writ God would shew your perfidie by manifest demonstrations For copies we haue none whether old or new but from you and many I haue seene and they all haue it Yet remember that you here confesse the Popes decretall Epistles to bee corrupted why 〈◊〉 forged which other where you perempâ—orily deny The common vse of all things Clement Epist 5. that are in this world ought to be to all men But through mens naughtines one said that this was his and another that and so there is a diuision made betweene mortall men Finally one of the wise men of the Grecians knowing this to bee so saith that all things among frieÌ„ds ought to be common Now among al things without doubt are husbands and wiues You may think you heare some Plato discoursing of the communitie of things alleadge some like place of Luthers What theÌ„ followeth after in those patches of yours For because the carnall knowledge of the wife is as necessarie to euery one as meate and drinke and sleepe are e DVR Tertul de Monog Hieron lib. 1. contra Iouinian vnderstand it only of those vvho are married that they might lawfully keepe and haue their wiues still WHIT pag. 690. That which Tertullian writ for the heretike Montanus that you greatly approue of And hee that knoweth not Hierome to bee further carried in the contempt of marriages then the Scriptures do allow of he accounteth the authoritie of Hieromes writings more then of the Word of God But the Apostle reiecteth this interpretation for when he commandeth that euery man should haue his wife to auoid foâ—nication vvho seeth not that this law concerneth the vnmaâ—ried who are forbidden fornication as well as the married And after in the 9. vers he speaketh to the vnmarried If they cannot absteine let them marâ—â—â— for it is better to marrie then to burne Therefore hee doth not onliâ— commaund that they vvho haue vviues keepe them still but that they vvhâ—â— haue not should marrie if they found it necessarie for them to auoid incontiâ—â—â—cie The Apostle commandeth 1 Cor. 7.2.9 that euery one for the auâ—iding of fornication haue his wife and euery woman her owne husband and that they that cannot conteine should marrie They therefore who haue it not giuen to them by God as that they can alwaies be without wiues to such it is necessary that they marry wiues if they will bee honest and chaste For I confesse that marriage is not necessarie for them who may wallow without punishment in all manner of vncleannesse and lust But goe forward Marriage is much better than Virginitie and against this Christ and Saint Paul perswaded Christian men The same things doe not agree to all men and that which is most profitable to some one may be contrarie to the inclinations of others Virginitie is one of those indifferent things which are as they are vsed for it is not simply good for then it were vnlawfull at all to thinke of marriage but after a sort f DVR VVhat is this else but euen the same that Iouinian ansâ—vered vnto Hierome the rest of the auncient Fathers As Augustine shevveth De. Sancta Virginitate cap. 21.22.23.24 WHIT. pag. 691. Whosoeuer will be single for this only end that he may liue so much the more 〈◊〉 â—ase and in the more pleasure and not be troubled with the necessary cares of marriage do deserue to be blamed with Iouinian And this sort
any Schoole-learning that they will heedfully obserue how current these your conclusions be and examine them by the rules of right and true disputation And indeed to chuse I will there begin where you your selfe haue made an entrance We mainteine that it is lawfull for Ministers of the Gospell and for Deacons to be maried You skorne the arguments whereby we make it good Wherefore let vs consider what goodly stuffe is brought on your side for the contrarie Pope Innocent the second of that name Distinct 82 Proposuisti Rom. 8.8 thus concludeth you must suppose by diuine inspiration against these mariages They which are in b DVR Pope Innocent spake of Priests who had vowed single life of their ovvne accord but aftervvard yeelded to lust WHIT. pag. 735. Nay he spake that of all Deacons and Priests for hee saith further Distinct. 82. cap. proposuisti It is not lawfull to admit them to holy offices which vse carnall companie â—ith their wiues because it is written â—â—e yee holy for 〈◊〉 the Lord your God am holy for then hee esteemed marriage duty to bee an vnholie thing in it selfe not in respect of their vow of which he speaketh not a word the flesh cannot please God Tit. 1.15 Vnto the pure al things are pure but vnto them that are defiled and vnbeleeuing is nothing pure Be yee holy because I the Lord your God am holy And because S. Paul permitteth married people by consent to sleepe apart for a season to the end they may more conueniently giue themselues to fasting praier Distinct 31. Tenere here heÌ„ce the Pope gathereth that this is much more c DVR This argument is good and can haue no shew of error For aboue all men a Priest must be chaste saith Origen Homil. 6 4. in Leuit. Also Ierome and Ambrose and Epiphanius taught the same WHIT. pag. 736. Yea you erâ—e and mistake S. Paul in theree things 1. What he wrote to all Christians you expound of Lay-men only 2. He speaketh only of extraordinarie fasts prayer but you applie it vnto all sorts thereof That the Apostle speaketh of extraordinarie appeares 1. Because he hath ioyned fasting with them 1. Cor. 7.5.2 Because Christ and his Apostle haue commanded all to pray continually and so all ought to lâ—ue a single life 3. From a short abstinence of Lay-men you childishly would proue a perpetuall single life to be necessary for Ministers You abuse also Origens words play the heretike as if chastitie were contrary to matrimony whereas the Fathers of the Nicene Councell consented to Paphnutius who said openly that society with a lavvfull wiâ—e is chastitie Socrates lib. 1. cap. 11. Jerome indeed disputed too sophistically against matrimony seeking victory more then verity as himself confessed Ambrâ—se and Epiphanius disswaded Ministers only from second mâ—â—riages allowing their fiâ—st to be done of Priests whose office is to pray alwaies to offer that daily sacrifice Distinct 28 Decernimus Last of al seeing they must be a teÌ„ple of the Lord and an oratory of the spirit d DVR Tertullian vsed this same argument against second marriage WHIT. pag. 739. Tertullian therein erred with Montanus as all the learned know condemning second marriages of vncleannes not only in Ministers but in all Christians yet he himselfe being a Priest was married and liued with his wife continuing his Ministery so that he neither iudged marriage to be vncleanenes nor vnlavvfull in Ministers simplie but only second marriages they ought not to abase themselues with bed-pleasures vncleannesses Now out of all these he coÌ„cludeth that which he propounded that Deacons and Priests are flatlie forbidden to marry Harding and Dorman and others If these things be absurdly disputed let vs heare others Seuerall Pastors haue rule ouer seuerall flockes c DVR The Pope challengeth no Lordship ouer the Churches but professeth himselfe the seueruant of Gods seruants WHIT. pag. 740. But his deeâ—s bewray his tyranny for he prescribeth commandeth threatneth punisheth and doth whatsoeuer any Lord can do DVR You can disproâ—e this consequent by no argument WHIT. pag. 741. It is an absurd argument like these Euery seuerall man hath one head therefore all men must haue one head Euery seuerall flocke hath his shepheard therefore all flockes must haue one to rule them Againe no one man can possiblie teach and feed the whole Church with the Word and Sacrament as a faithfull Pastor should and may doe in a particular Church Christ only can thus feed al particular Churches which can neuer be made one visible body and therefore can haue none but Christ the generall head and Pastor ouer them DVR Ierome Cyprian and Ireneus haue written the same we doe WHIT. pag 742. Not one of them First Ierome defendeth the superiority of one Pastor in the Church not as a matter of accessitie but of conueniency to preuent schismes and saith that the Church is founded vpon all the Apostles alike and that euery one equally hath receiued the keies of the kingdome of heauen euen in that place where you quote him against Iouinian lib. 1. Secondly Cyprian coÌ„cludeth only that there should be but one Pastor in one Church and neuer thought vpon the Popes primacie but saith plainly that euery particular Bishop hath all whatsoeuer any one hath by right in the same booke which you alleadge of the Churches vnity Lastly Ireneus called the Romane the chiefe Church not for any superiority but because she excelled all others in constancie largenes fame and soundnes of faith therefore the Pope ought to haue dominion ouer all Churches Christ said to Peter feed my sheepe f DVR Jt is manifest by this place that Christ gaue greater authoritie of feeding to Peter than to the other Apostles and so made him head of all his Church WHIT. p. 744. It will not follow vpon this place that Peter had greater authority to feed or that he only must feede all for he said to them all alike Matth. 28.19 Goe yee teach all nations and Iob. 20 21. As the Father sent me so I send you Therefore he spake so often then to Peter to confirme him after his grieuous fall that he might not doubt of his Apostolicall calling as saith Augustines treatise on Iohn 123. so that it no whit concerneth the Pope therefore Peter is the chiefe principall Pastor of the Church The Lord made two great lights the Sunne g DVR The Pope vseth this as a similitude to amplifie not as an argument to prooue by authoritie WHIT. pag. 746. This is an idle shift a similitude is an argument and Johannes Andraeas would prooue hereby that the Pope excelleth the Emperor in dignitie seuentie times seuen degrees the Moone therfore the Pope excelleth the Emperour in honour and greatnes Heere are two swords therfore the h DVR VVe gather nothing hence but vvhat Bernard did saying This sword of temporall povver is thine
also happily at thy commaund though not to be drawne with thy hand speaking to the Pope WHIT. pag. 747. Duraeus is ashamed of this sophisme buâ— yet he fathereth it vpon Bernard which also Iohannes a Capistrano of the Pope and Councels p 77. and others of them haue handled and Pope Boniniface girt himselfe with a sword in signe hereof but this place speaketh nothing at all for any such power Pope must beare both swords The seruant is not aboue his master therefore i DVR What Catholike euer taught or wrote thus howbeit the Fathers of the Sinuessan Councell said The chiefe seate is iudged of no man WHIT. pag. 749. Thus you will make the Pope no Catholike who saith Dist 40. si Pâ—pa The Pope may bee reproued of no mortall man though he leade with him innumerable people vnto hell And who knoweth not these two pillers of Popery the Church of Rome cannot erre whatsoeuer it teacheth and the Pope may not be accused whatsoeuer â—e doth The Bishops of the Sinuessan Synode spake to Marcellinus the Pope who had denied Christ and committed Idolatrie and might bee accused by the Popes owne lawes so that in citing that authoritie you contradict both your selfe and your lawes it is lawfull for no man to accuse or reproue the Pope Christ prayed that Peters faith should not faile him k DVR Christ made Peter his Vicar on earth and by his prayer obtained that his Vicars faith might not faile by force vvherof the Pope cannot erre as Augustine and Cyprian also perceiued WHIT pag. 750. It is not true that Christ made Peter his Vicar nor doth it follow Peters faith failed not therefore no Popes faith hath failed who are his successors for Popes haue done and may fall into heresies as you will confesse and may erre in faith saith Pope Boniface Dâ—st 40. Papa which he could not do it this argument of yours vvere true Further Christ prayed for all his Apostles and the whole Church shal we say Christs prayer was lesse effectuall for the rest then for Peter If it be not then none of their successors could erre no more then Peters which I suppose you will not affirme And Augustine and Cyprian neuer reasoned as you do you abuse their names therefore the Pope cannot erre The vulgar people commeth seldome and negligently to the Lords Supper l DVR If you beleeued the Prophet Malachie or the Masse you vvould confesse this argument to be good WHIT pag. 753. You can neuer proue your Masse by the Prophet Malachie who speaketh of the prayers of the godly as Tertullian Eusebius and Jerome expound him and if the Masse were a sacrifice indeed as you call it the peoples negligence is no sufficient cause to make it priuate and yet to profit the people yea though they be absent you may aswel abuse the Word it selfe so and say it is inough when it is in publike it the Priest handle it and heare it and beleeue it alone yet the people being absent and not dreaming of any such thing may be saued by it therefore the Priest may celebrate priuate Masse Christ admitted onlie his Apostles to Suppe therefore Priests alone must m DVR The people also receiue the vvhole Sacrament vnder one kind WHIT pag. 754. It is childish dotage to say so as though one part of a thing were the vvhole or as if Christ appointing both bread and wine ordained more then a whole Sacrament that Pope was wiser vvhich said of certaine heretikes that refrained from the Cup as you doâ— De concil dist 2. cap. Comperimus Let them either receiue the vvhole Sacrament or refuse all DVR Christs vvords Drinke yee all of this proue nâ—t that all Christians must doe so WHIT. pag. 755. They doe proue it as those vvords take eate doe proue that all must eate and you may as vvell keepe both the elements from the people as one contrarie to S. Paul 1. Cor. 11.23 DVR The Passeouer might be eaten vvithout vvine WHIT. pag. 756. It might because God had not commaunded vvine but Christ himselfe commaundeth it in his Supper 1. Cor. 11.45 DVR The common people are aâ—t bound to drinke of the Cap for S. Paul saith As oft as ye drinke it to signifie they were not commanded so to doe WHIT. So he saith of the bread also As of as yee eate 1. Cor. 11.26 so that by your argument neither is the bread commanded them receiue the Sacrament the people ought to bee contented only with one part The title which Pilate fastned vpon the Crosse was written in Hebrew Greeke Latine therfore n DVR No Catholike doth so reason we say that title had in it a mysterie and Augustine proueth by it that the vvord coessentâ—all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be vsed in the Creede WHIT. pag. 757. Papists often reason thus as all men knovve which read their writings though you bee ashamed of it Tell vs what mysterie you meane if it bee worth the labour as for Augustine hee speakes no word that makes here for your cause yet you blush not to quote him prayers must bee read in the Churches in no language but either Hebrew or Greeke or Latine Harding That which is holy must not be giuen to dogges o DVR VVe say not that all but that some of the people may not haue the Scriptures committed to them WHIT. pag. 758. Who doubteth but that vvisedome is to be vsed in teaching the people and that they vvhich shevv themselues dogges and hogges must be barred from the Scriptures but this is nothing to the present question vvhether this reason be good vvhich Papists sometimes vse and vvhich here you should haue spoken to and not thus vvander therfore the vulgar people must be forbidden to reade the Scriptures This is my bodie therefore the p DVR Christ said it vvay his bodie WHIT. pag. 759. Christ by an vsuall phrase of Scripture called the thing signifying by the name of the thing signified because of the sacramentall ioint receiuing of both to vvit of the bread vvith the mouth and of his bodie by faith Againe if that vvhich vvas in Christs hands vvere his reall body vvhen he said so then vvas transubstantiation before vvhich you deny and then he had tvvo bodies but if it vvere bread then is there a metonymie in his vvords as vvee truly say bread is turned into Christs bodie Fall downe before his footestoole q DVR Ambrose and Augustine reasoned so from this Scripture WHIT p. 761. That is false they teach onely that vve must vvorship Christ in the mysteries and Sacrament not the myâ—teries and Sacrament themselues therefore the Sacrament must be worshipped God is no respecter of persons Pighius r DVR That vvas Pighius his error but the iudgement of Catholike Vniuersities is that foreseeing of merits is no cause of Predestination WHIT. pag. 762. Thus you fall from your champion Pighius in vvords
but indeed many of your Schooles defend him saying the kingdome of heauen is prepared for them vvhich haue merited it by their good works therefore hee chuseth no man to life eternall but with respect of merits S. Iames commaundeth that sicke persons should be anointed Å¿ DVR The sicke vvant health novv as vvell as then and therefore must novv haue the same helping remedie WHIT. pag. 763. Anointing was a signe of healing in those times of extraordinarie giftes in the Church your anointing healeth nothing that wanteth health and so is friuolous therefore we must now euer and anon anoint the sicke This is a great mysterie t DVR The Apostle speaketh that properly of Matrimonte WHIT. pag. 764. Nay he himselfe expoundes it of the mysticall vnion betweene Christ and the Church therefore Matrimonie is a Sacrament Elias and Iohn Baptist liued in the wildernesse u DVR These men left a famous example of Monkish life WHIT. pag. 765. The Monkes life is not proued by their examples for Elias was commaunded to goe into the desert during perill they doe that without both precept and perill John Baptist indeede liued in the desert but wherein men did dwell to whom also he preached and there were many cities and townes in that desert Josh 15.61 what is this to idle Monkish life therefore they inuented the manner of life and discipline of Monkes There are seuen deadly sinnes x DVR Name him that thus disputeth WHIT. pag. 766. It is Iohn Lâ—dâ—vvicke in a booke intituled The golden vvorke of true contrition leafe 128. Where are abunuen sorts of men in the Church c. therefore there are iust seuen Sacraments God made man after his image y DVR Pope Adrian proueth not the vse of images by this place but saith it vvas signified by it WHIT. pag. 767. Then you confesse he alleageth that Scripture to proue the vse of images was signified by it and who but a superstitious doctor would haue done so therefore images must be set vp in Churches The chiefest of these is charitie z DVR The chiefest gift must come from the chiefest vertue WHIT. pag. 768. S. Paul 1. Cor. 13. doth not in all things preferre charitie before faith but onely because it indureth in the life to come when wee shall not neede faith as Chrysostome expoundes it now faith onely apprehends Christ our righteousnesse and therein excelleth charitie Lastly you erre grossely in effect ascribing our iustâ—fication to the merit of vertue in vs vvhich onely is merited by Iesus Christ therefore we are iustified more by charitie than by faith I will goe Osea 5.15 saith the Lord to my place vntill they ponder in their heart and seeke my face which indeede he spake a DVR Do you thinke that God calleth men to repentace ironically WHIT. pag. 799. No but when men will not seâ—k God being called thereto by his bountie no maruaile though hee withdraw it from them and as it were laugh at their madnes of which ironies there be many examples in Scriptures ironically and after the manner of men therefore men may be conuerted vnto the Lord by their owne meere will and disposition The Lord commaundeth vs to doe many things b DVR Augustine denieth that God hath commanded impossible thinâ—s WHIT. pag. 770. Hee expoundeth his owne meaning that Adam before his fall could and that we in heauen shal be able to keepe all Gods commandements but he often saith that no man in this life can fulfill the Law of God DVR Men vse not to make lavves impossible to be kept WHIT. We must not measure Gods doing by mans Againe when these lawes were first giuen man could performe them and vvee must not looke that God should alter them to fit our corruption DVR God could not iustly punish lavvbreakers if they could not keepe it WHIT. pag. 771. Answere then Eusebius Euangelicall demonst lib. 1 who saith that Moses Lavv vvas impossible to be kept of any man And Thomas Aquinas vpon Gal. 3. sect 4. saying Moses commaunded many things vvhich no man could fulfill therefore those things may be performed of vs. Christ descended to the dead therefore he deliuered c DVR Tell me for what other cause Christ went into bel but to deliuer the Fathers from Limbus WHIT. pag. 772. Nay first proue you that he did go so to hel as you thinke for my part I beleeue it not but that his soule went presently to heauen Againe you begge the question saying he went to hell to deliuer the Fathers DVR I proue it by these Scriptures Zac. 9.11 Psal 68.18 Heb. 9.8 WHIT. â—acharie speaketh only of the Iewes deliuery from the captiuitie of Babylon Dauid speaketh of Christs ascending into heauen and triumph ouer his enemies and you childishly inferre hereupon therefore he descended to hell to deliuer the Patriarkes from Limbus but most ridiculously you abuse that place to the Hebrewes the true sense whereof is that we are not reconciled to God by the Iewish sacrifices but by Christ therefore you inferre that none of the Patriarkes vvent to heauen vntill Christ came out of hell and opened heauen by his bodilie ascension the Fathers out of Limbus The Church discerneth the Scriptures d DVR Catholikes say not so WHIT. pag. 773 But your false Church doth so for it interpreteth Scriptures as it listeth and constraineth all Christians to rest therein bee it neuer so false and contrarie to the Scriptures else it doth condemne him for an heretike therefore the authoritie of the Church is greater than the authoritie of the Scriptures Saint Paul commaundeth the Thessalonians 2. Thess 2.15 that they keepe the ordinances which they had learned therefore e DVR What error find you in this argument WHIT. pag. 774. I find in it a threefold false consequent first you cannot proue hence that the things which S. Paul spake by word were not the same in effect which hee wrote to theÌ„ secondly if he wrote not all to theÌ„ which he had taught theÌ„ it followeth not that hee taught something which is not written in the Scriptures thirdly admit many things were left vnwritten yet it followeth not that all things necessary to saluatioÌ„ be not written nor do the ancient Fathers say so all things are not written which are necessarie to saluation 2. Cor. 3 15. Hee himselfe shall bee safe yet as it were through fire f DVR Sundry Fathers expound this place of Purgatory fire WHIT. pag. 776. But the place it selfe sheweth that it cannot bee meant of any such fire for 1. S. Paul speaketh of the purging away that which is a fault but in your Purgaâ—orie faults are not consumed but you say punishments are sâ—ffred for fâ—uâ—â—s 2. S. Paul saith euery mans worke be it gold or wood shall be tried but you cast nothing but wood hay and stubble into your fained Purgatory 3. S. Paul saith euery mans worke shall be
meates and prescribed obseruation of daies Apoc. 5. because the Prophet highly commendeth a spirituall fast Esay 48. I wil speake a few words both of the one and other that I may cleerly quit vs of this crime of Homonymie Saint Iohn alone hath not named all p DVR By this argument you may as well proue the Iewes had no Priests properly so called WHIT. pag. 809. Not so for the Lord ordained such a Priesthood amongst them which he hath not amongst Christians Christians Priests 1. Pet. 2.5.9 but S. Peter also hath tearmed them a holy and a royall Priesthood and this name is in no place of the new Testament q DVR So the name Sacrament is neuer giuen to Baptisme nor to the Eucharist in the New testament WHIT. pag. 810. But the substance of it agreeth to them both and is there whereas the name Sacerdos a Priest is not in the nevv Testament nor doth the thing it selfe properly belong to any but Christ since his death DVR Yea Christ instituted a sacrifice in his Supper and where a sacrifice is there is a Priest also WHIT. pag. 810. Christ ordeined theÌ„ no sacrifice but only a Sacrament of a sacrifice DVR Esay calleth the Mâ—nisters of the Gospell Priests cap. 6â— 6 66.21 WHIT. Esay in the first place speaketh of all Christians and in the second of Ministers in the phrase of that time vvhence also you may as well say Deacons are Leuites vvhich you vvill not say they are propeâ—ly DVR Ministers are needlesse except they be Priects and as mediators betwixt God and men vnto saluation and your Ministers are but Lay-men WHIT. pag. 810. â—15 They must preach the Word and administer the Sacraments but not offer sacrifice of mediation betwixt God and men as you say you do in the Masse to do these we haue a calling ordeined of Christ for your sacrifice you haue none DVR The Apostles name them not Priests because they are not of the order of Aaron but the Fathers call them Priests who knevv the Apostles mâ—aâ—ing and you call them Priests in English WHIT pag. 812. Christ only is a Priest after the order of Melchisedecke Heb. 7.3 so then there be no Priests at all you confesse the Fathers call them so by custome but not properly the Apostles of purpose abstaining froÌ„ the name of Priests might teach vs hereafter better vvisdome to do so also properly applied to the Ministers of the Gospell For Christ being made an high Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedech hath no copartners of this r DVR True for it is Christ that presenteth himselfe in the sacrifiâ—e vve onely are as ministers WHIT. p. 814. If you be Ministers only then are you not properly Priests why then will you be so called DVR Yet vve as truely sacrifice as baptise WHIT. Thus you will be Ministers only and no Priests nor be copaâ—tners in Christs sacrifice yet you will bâ— tearmed Priests and truly sacrifice these be contraries and cannot stand together yea meere madnes and dotages Priesthood therefore Christ hath left vnto his Churches a Ministerie and not a new Priesthood Neither doth there remaine to vs Å¿ DVR Thus you strippe the Gospell of all sacrifice and â—eligion WHIT. pag. 816. 817. All your religion by this your doctrine is in your Masse which we willingly haue not but notwithstanding we haue the sacrifice of Christ which is perpetuall and inchangeable Heb. 7 2â— 28 and 10.14 your inuisible sacrifice the Scripture knoweth not any such sacrifice for the administration whereof some speciall Priests must needs be authorised For that sacrifice of praise and doing good Hebr. 13.15.16 which the Apostle mentioneth and which now remaineth onely that I say appertaineth indifferently to all Christians Notwithstanding we permit none to execute the administration of this ministery which Christ would haue to be perpetuall in his Church but them whom it concerneth and who are by due order t DVR VVho called Luther Caluin Beza c. your Ministers WHIT. pag. 820. Luther Zuinglius Bucer c. were Priests of your owne and so had a calling except your order of Priesthood be no calling and might call others by your law Againe God is not tied so to order but that he may for the good of the Church call Ministers extraordinarily And the Churches haue lavvfull povver to chuse Ministers so that we need not to call any from you that seruice as saith Cyprian Epist. 68. Thus were Caluiâ— and Beza chosen called thereunto Albeit then Christ haue made vs all both Kings that we might be able to subdue our sinnes and Priests that we might offer him spirituall sacrifices notwithstanding as it is not lawfull for euery man to dreame of a kingdome so it is a thing detestable for any man to enter vpon the holy Ministery who hath not that function committed vnto him by diuine authoritie Wherefore I see not at all why you should charge vs with any such Homonymy or falshood from ambiguous signification in this word As for your maner of fasting that indeed is wholly in shew and hath nothing in it of a Christian fast but the very name For to make choyce of meates as a thing more religious and to prescribe certaine and perpetuall set dayes wherein we must necessarily fast the u DVR This sauoureth of Luthers spirit but Pope Leo saith that the holy Ghost taught the Apostles the disciplâ—ne of fasting for one of the chiefe Sacraments of heauenly doctrine WHIT. pag. 8â—1 c. Wee allow Christian fasting but vvhat spirit taught Leo to say so of your solemne superstitious fasts the Scriptures speake no such thing which wee preferie before all mens iudgements one is witlesse the other superstitious For what man which is not depriued of iudgement and all sense will thinke that he fasteth who so that he abstaine x DVR No Catholike euer said that the force of fasting consisteth in only abstinence from flesh WHIT. pag. 822. All men know that you call your abstinence from flesh in Lent in the Ember daies the Saint Eues c. fasting and that he who then eateth â—â—sh and other meate in abundance in not said amongst you to violate his fast but if one doe but tast flesh you esteeme him a grieeuous malefactor DVR But Elisha Daniel Iohn Baptist made religious choise of meates vvhich you thus call madnes yea Daniel absteined from flesh and vvine to apprease Gods anger vvhose example teacheth vs also to absteine from daintier meates in time of fasting as the Church hath long accustomed WHIT. pag. 823. These holy men did not fast as you doe and teach for Elisha fed the Prophets with wild and bitter herbes not for religion sake but in time of fâ—â—mine for want of other victuall 2. King 4.39 and Daniel absteined not from some only but from all desireable meates Dan. 10.3 not to appease Gods anger as you say
but that he might vvith more liuely sense of his brethrens miserie humble himselfe to God as for John Baptists coÌ„tinuall diet it vvas locusts and vvild hony nothing like your fasting It is meere dorage and superstation to call abstinence only from some delicate meates fasting though other as delicate be eaten as you doe no Prophets nor auncient Christians in the Church euer fasted thus froÌ„ flesh may at his pleasure glut himselfe with all maner of dainties Or who can suppose that the Fridayes fast is holier then the Wednesdayes fast but he must too much sauour of Iudaisme If S. Paul reproued the Galathians Gal. 4.10 because they did obserue dayes and y DVR This is an auncient cauill of heretiks long since ansevered by Ierome and Augustine that vve obserue not the same dayes that Ievves and Gentiles did WHIT. pag. 824. The Church in thâ—ir time did not bind mens consciences to the obseruation of daies as you doe and as did the Galathians iudging it necessarie for Christians to fast at your set times which if it had done yet the authoritie of men must not preuaile more than Scripâ—ures moneths and times is it likely he would endure our Papists which erre more grossely and shamefully If he forewarned the Colossians that they would not be intangled with their superstition Colos 2.21 which thought that some certaine meates were not to be z DVR Saint Paul reprooueth there the practise of Ievvish ceremonies WHIT. pag. 8â—6 True and all other like them which are mans ordinances and doctrines as he saith plamely verse 22. of which sort yours are else shew vs Scripture for them touched not to be tasted not to be handled would he allow the papisticall choice of meates If he determined long since 1. Tim. 4.2.3 that it was diuelish and a DVR You sight against vs vvith the Manichees vveapoâ—s vvhom Augustine aâ—svvered against Faust lib. 30. cap. 5. That true Christians abstaine from certaine meates and fruites more or lesse as they please and are able to tame the bodie and humble the soule against sinne not as though thâ—se creatures vvere vncâ—â—â—e WHIT. pag. 817. Thus you make Saint Paul a Manichee but indeed he there condemneth them and all that forbid to cate meates vnder paine of damnation which you doe and that place of Augustine plainely sheweth how your fasts differ from the Christian fasts in his time first they were to tame and humble men yours doe not so secondly they thought no meates vncleane you say men are polluted by eating some forbidden thirdly they abstained from sith and fruites as from flesh in their fasts you doe not so fourthly they fasted as they thought good and could but you make generall lawes of fastings to binde men thereto hypocriticall to absteine from certaine meates if he were now liuing would he change his doctrine and command this abstinence to a Christian We truely for our parts do alwayes and very highly commend a true fast whether it be priuate or publike neither do we commend them only but also we vse them as this yeare last past may most plentifullie witnesse for vs during which publike fasts were most religiously obserued in very many places As for those fasts of Moses and Dauid Helias and Iohn Baptist and the Apostles wherein were they any whit like vnto yours for if fasting do consist in choyce of meates and in appointing set dayes as you resolutely iudge it doth informe me if you can that they either at any time b DVR The auncient obseruation of Lent of VVednesday and Fridates fast and of the Ember daies might haue informed you hereof WHIT. p. 828. 829. You play the Sophister here in graine for Moses Elias Dauid â—ohn Baptist and the Apostles nouerkept those fasts neither did they nor any of the auncient Fathers preferre fish before flesh in theirâ— fastings as you doe DVR Aeriuâ— vvas counted an heretike vvho taught the same doctrine of fasting vvhich you do Epiphan haerel 75. WHIT. pag. 829. 830. The auncient Church disliked Euslathius his eagernes against Aerius in this point as witnesseth Socrates l. 2. c. 43. Sozomen l. 3. c. 13. Aerius might be an Arrian and so an heretike but of fasting he taught the same with Augustine Epist. 86. that there were no certaine times of fasting appointed by the Apostles Tertullian contra Psychicoâ— witnesseth that in the auncient ChristiaÌ„ church meÌ„ vsed to fast voluÌ„tarily freely not by CanoÌ„ or precept Epiphanius defeÌ„ded Eustathius against the churches iudgmeÌ„t in this point touching Aerius preferred fish before flesh or vsed inioyned and yearely set fasts For Iohn Baptist vsed continually to fast in his manner and the others fasted as the times and present occasions required in which their fasts they absteined as well from fish as from flesh Therefore in one word to wipe away your imputation of Homonymie I denie that we vse any For in that that we require the spirituall fast we dislike not the externall 〈◊〉 Tim. 4.8 howsoeuer this outward fast be nothing profitable without the spirituall But this deceitfull argumentation if there were any such here is rather by inferring a weake consequeÌ„t then by Homonymie or equiuocation how beit what the truth is we haue sufficiently ciscussed You haste forward and ioyne vnto these a fourth manner of deceiptfull disputation Circulatio named Circulation which is when one after a few words to no purpose returneth againe to the same and beggeth the question I acknowledge it to be a grosse and vnsauorie kind of sophistry so to do but shew me an example of our so doing You propound one example namely about the true notes of the Church for heere you say we alwayes make circuits and rounds and vse that very same thing for an argument wherein the question lieth But how prooue you that forsooth because we say the notes of the Church be the word of God and the Sacraments And so we say truly for they who haue these haue a Church of Christ but they who altogether want these are vtterly without both the Church and Christ Let vs contend about these notes that it may be discerned whether you or we haue them Tell me in what Court shall we try this title before what Commissioner before what Iudge shall we commence our plea I suppose the word of God must be consulted with But you say you haue alreadie consulted with it and you now fauour our cause lesse then you did before But I say Campian we rest vpon the word of God and not on your iudgement Yea but say you prooue vnto me that this is the word of God nay it were more meete that you should proue it is not And I also require of you that you will do the same thing which you commaund me to do namely that you will proue your word and Sacraments to be the very same which Christ hath commended vnto his Church Wherefore this
ouerthrowne all Europe and would haue occupied himselfe as busily in pulling downe of Altars and signes of Christs Crosse as euer Caluin was himselfe Wherefore they are our peculiar enemies Seeing that by our mens industrie hitherto they haue been kept backe from off Christian mens throates Let vs take a view of heretikes Haretici Clem. lib. 1. recog Iren. lib. 1. cap. 2. Cyp. Epist ad Iubatam l. 4. Epist 2. Theodoâ—o de fab haeret Aug. her 46. Epiph. haere 75. Socrat. lib. 2. c. 35. Hier. in Iou. Vigil Aug. her 82. which are the verie dregges and bellowes and fit food for hell fire The first that commeth into my mind is Symon Magus what did he * This is false reade the answere he tooke from man freewill he was still prating of faith only The next that I remember was Nouatian What of him he opposed himselfe to Cornelius the Pope of Rome He was an enemy to the Sacramets of Perance and holy Vnction Thirdly I thinke of Manes the Persian who taught that * He taught that Baptisme did auaile nothing at all Baptisme was not a sufficient meane to worke our saluation After him there started vp Aerius and Arian who condemned prayers for the only and was therefore forenamed the * This was Aetius not Aetius Atheist as well as Lucian was Then followed Vigilantius which would not permit men to pray vnto Saints and Iouinian who maintained marriage to be as excellent as virginitie Finally there came after all the whole rable of heretikes as Macedonius Pelagius Nestorius Eutyches Monothelites Image breakers and others to which number our posteritie will adde also Luther and Caluin what of all these Euery one of them like carion Crowes hatched al of one kind of egge rebelled against the chiefe rulers of our Church and by them were confounded and brought to naught Let vs now leaue speaking of hell to returne to the earth againe Terrae Sedes Apostolica Ep. 162. Whither soeuer I shall cast mine eies and incline my cogitation whether I behold the Patriarkes and Seas Apostolike or the Bishops of other countries or renowmed Princes and Emperours or the first entrance of Christian religion into euery nation or any monuments of antiquitie or the light of reason or the comely sight of honestie Vide Tert. de praesâ— Aug. lib. 2. de Doct. Christ cap. 8. I find that all of them doe dutiful seruice and speake fauourably for our religion witnes hereof the Romane succession In whose Church that I may say as doth S. Augustine * While Augustine liued the principaline of the Apostles chaire flourished in that Church But that apostolike chaire is long agoe ouerthrowne the principality of the Apostolike chaire hath euer been in force witnesses also hereunto are the seas of the rest of the Apostles to whom the name Apostolike most excellently agreeth Because they were first erected by the Apostles themselues or by those that heard them preach Witnesses also are the Pastors of euery Church throughout the wide world who Terra disiunctissima Hieron in cat scrip eccl alij though their abode was in diuers places yet our religion was common to them also As S. Ignatius and S. Chrysostome liued at Antioch S. Peter Alexander Athanasius and Theophilus at Alexandria Macarius and Cyril at Hierusalem Proculus at Constantinople Gregorie Basil at Capadocia Gregorie sirnamed Thaâ—maturgus in Pontus Polycarpus at Smyrna Iustinus at Athens Dionysius at Corinth Another Gregorie at Nissa Methodius at Tyrus Ephreenus in Syria Cyprian Optatus Augustine in Africke Epiphanius in Cyprus Andrew in Creet Ambrose Paulinus Gaudentius Prosper Faustus Vigilius in Italie Iâ—encus Martyrus Hilarius Eucherius Gregorie of Toures and Siluianus in France Vincentius Orosins Heldefonsus Leander and Isidorus in Spaine Fugatius Damanus Iustus Mellitus and Bede in England Finallie lest I should seeme ambitious in reckoning so many names what treatises or fragments of treatises so euer be extant of those as in the Primitiue Church preached the Gospell though in countries farre asunder yet all of them doe deliuer vnto vs one and the selfe-same faith * This is most false which we Catholikes doe at this present professe what cause good Christ could I alleadge before thee for my example but that thou mightest iustly exclude me altogether froÌ„ thy blessed company if I should prefer a number of hedge-creepers both few in account and also vnlearned diuided amongst themselues in opinions of a â—â—so loâ—â— beforâ— sâ—â—â—â—y * You ought not to hang your soule vpon men light â—â—â—â—pes of the Church Witnesses also are all Priâ—â—â—s Principes Kings Emperours and all their Câ—â—â—â—-weales the godlinesse of which Princes themselues Vide Câ—p. To◠〈◊〉 de sâ—â—ctis and also the people vnder their iurisdiction and their good gouernment both in times of peace and of marres haue at the first grounded themselues vpon this sound rocke of our Catholik doctrine What famous men out of the East might I heere recite vnto you that beare the name of Theodosius what worthy men out of the West of the name of Charles what Edwards out of England what Lewesses out of France what Hermingildes out of Spaine what Henries out of Saxony what Winceslaes out of Bohemia what Leopaldes out of Austria What Steuens out of Hungarie what Iosephats out of Indie And finally what noble gouernours of many Empires and Rulers of particular Countries throughout the whole world who by their good example by their force by their lawes by their continuall care by their charges haue maintained our Church For so hath Esay prophesied Esay 48. Kings shall be thy foster Fathers and Queenes shall be thy nurses Giue eare O Queene Elizabeth most mightie Princes to your Maiestie this great Prophet telleth this tale he teacheth you precisely what you haue to doe And I tell you plaine that one heauen cannot containe * You tell vs this thing most foolishly Caluine and these Peeres Let your Maiestie therefore take part with these honorable Princes that you may shew your selfe a condigne heire vnto your noble auncesters answerable vnto your excellent wit correspoÌ„dent to your profound knowledge worthie of high commendations and finallie fit for your royall dignitie Onely this I indeuour as touching your Maiestie and will indeuour whatsoeuer become of me against whom as though I were your deadly enemie these fellowes do so often threaten hanging on the gallowes ô welcome sweet crosse to me ô welcome I say ten thousand times sweet crosse of mine the day will come most soueraigne Lady and Queene Elizabeth euen that day I say will come which shall â—â—â—dently sâ—t before your Maiesties eyes whether of the two haue more sincerely loued you the * Shee hath long agoe and very sufficiently perceiued that how greatly your society hath loued her Fie away varlates societie of Iesuites or Luthers progenie Nationes ad Chriâ—â—â—â— traâ—â—â—â— I go forward there will
you Ireneus Victor Polycarp Cornelius Cyprian Sixtus Laurentius are ours But I affirme that all these do belong vnto vs let vs then consider how you will perswade vs they are yours Telesphorus enioyned a more strict obseruation of Lent fast appointed by the Apostles e DVR But J proue it by these witnesses Augustine Hierome Basil Ambrose Epiphanius Clemenâ— WHIT. pag. 862. And I proue the contrary by the Fathers August Epist. â—6 writeth plainely that neither Christ not his Apostles ordained any certaine time for fastings And so not Lent Tertul. aduer Psychicos In times past ChristiaÌ„s indifferently fasted of their owne free will as euery mans time and occasions required and not by any coÌ„mand of new gouernmeÌ„t Doth not this ouerthrow the necessary obseruatioÌ„ of Lent Chryso in Mat. hom 47. freely confesseth that Christ did not command vs to imitate his fast But what is Lent but an imitation of it Further Montanus was the first who brought vp set solemne daies of fastings Euseb lib. 5. cap. 17. Finally Ireneus in Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 26. sheweth that in the Primitiue Church there was great variety about the keeping of this fast and that this difference began not in his time only but was long before Therefore it is false that Christ and his Apostles appointed the fast of Fortie daies I deny that the Apostles ordeined any such Lenâ—en fast or that Telesphorus commaunded a more precise obseruation thereof The Apostles were farre from ordeining and Telesphâ—rus from reuiuing so great superstition Clemens his Constitutions where this is reported are not sufficient authoritie But if this fast were prescribed by the Apostles I wonder how afterwards it was discontinued so as it should bee necessarie for Telesphorus to enioyn the keeping of it more precisely especially seeing such strife was in the Church about the celebration of Easter The epistle of Telesphorus wherein he commaunds the 7. weekes fast hath the same authority with the rest of your decretall epistles of your Pope which were not framed by the most holy Bishops themselues but coyned since by the most impudent Parasites of the church of Rome Jren. lib. 4. cap. 43. Ireneus say you declared the Apostolike faith from the succession and sea of Rome So he might well then for as Ireneus elsewhere saith They retained with the succession of Bishops the gratious succession of truth for succession is nothing worth without truth Your Chaire and Sea hath Bishoply succession it hath not the succession of truth Victor say you by his edict subdued Asia He endeuored it indeed Campian but failed of his purpose for being a man very passionate he would needs excommunicate all such Churches of Asia as refused to keepe Easter according to the Romane custome When he began thus insolently to abuse his authority f DVR Neither Ireneus nor any other denied to Pope Victor this power to excommunicate the Churches of Asia WHIT. pag. 863. But Eusebius wriâ—eth lib. 5. cap. 25. that both Ireneus and many other Catholike Bishops sharpely reproued him for assuming that power Ireneus tamed and restrained him As for the controuersie about Easter Victor was so farre from composing and ending it that it coÌ„tinued vnto the g DVR By the same reason you may say the CouÌ„cels decree preuailed nothing to endiâ—â—â— controuersie WHIT. pag. 864. The reason is good proueth that wheÌ„ he could preuaile neither by examples reasons nor threatnings that those Churches did not accouÌ„t Pope Victor for the head of the Church And though after that Councell of Nice some Churches obserued the Passeouer after another manner yet the most Churches followed the iudgement and authoritie of the Councell So the Councell preuailed more then the Pope could doe Councell cell of Nice You may see how well Victor subduer all Asia Polycarpe in the question about Easter went to Rome Smyrna gathered his reliques Wonderfull reasons Polycarpe went to Rome to consult with Anycetus about Easter and Smyrna gathered his reliques ergo Polycarpe is yours Doth not the learned Vniuersities make you ashamed of this childish sophistrie h DVR Enuie maketh you forge an vntruth And whil for eunie you pine avvay aâ— the honor which is giuen of Christians to the reliques of Martyrs you imitate the Jewes and the Diuell WHIT. pag. 865. I haue spoken neither lesse nor more then Eusebius hath written who theÌ„ liued After we had gathered his banes being more precious then pearles and gold we buried them where it was thought sit And as for the reliques of Saiâ—ns I enuy them not the Saints themselues I euer honorablie remember But that the reliques of Saints were worshipped with religiâ—us honor as they are in your Church you shall neuer be able to proue His bones indeed were gathered by the Church of Smyrna not to worship them but to bury them as Eusebius in the same place recordeth But why are Cornelius and Cyprian yours forsooth because Cornelius abolished the i African error and Cyprian had him in great reuerence Oh wonderfull Iesuiticall Logick l DVR His supreame authoritia appeareth in this because hee decreed that controuersie being not the Bishop of Africke but of Rome WHIT. pag. 866. Saint Paul confuted many errors of the Churches of Galatia Coâ—inth Rome and diuers others yet was hee neuer supreame Bishop So did Augustine But what error did he suppresse was it touching Baptisme by heretikes that he neuer could doe but Cyprian and the Bishops of Africke constantly held it which proued they neuer acknowledged that he had any such authoritie who can chuse but be much moued with such strong reasons But let vs heare another Sixtus is ours and why so Seauen of the Clergie ministred vnto him while hee serued at the altar Seauen Deacons helped Sixtus to celebrate the Lords supper ergo Sixtus is yours If this reason be of force let him be yours hardly I will not striue with you about him but herein is nothing why he may not as well be k DVR Pope Sixtus a Priest offred vp the body and blood of Christ Deacons assisting of him could not bee a Caluinist but on our side WHIT. pag. 868. As if we had no Deacons who helpe the Minister when he celebrateth the Lords Supper ours as yours Doth it become you Campian thus to trifle thus to abuse our patience What followeth Laurence is yours how so I pray you Our aduersaries haue cast him out of their Calouder We remember him with reuerence as a saint and a friend of Christ though we worship him not as God But Prudentine prayed vnto him a thousand yeares agoe Giue leaue Campian to a Poet to vse poeticall auersions from whence yet no strong reason can be drawne But if Prudentius were something too superstitious what is that to vs Now you recken vp virgins Câ—cilia Agatha and others but what haue they done why they should not be ours When the Tyrants examined them of their faith they
names of S. Peter S. Paul and of Apollo Besides the difference is very great not in the name but in things also As thus Let the question be whether the Crosse and Image of Christ bee to bee worshipped with the same kind of worship that Christ is adored withall Doth not this appertaine to faith But error in this will be plaine Idolatrie And yet you know some of the Schoolemen stand for it some against iâ— what of that question which hath exercised al Churches and Schooles so long Whether the Virgin Marie had originall sinne or was euer pure and without spot And infinite such differences I omit being matter of faith Thomist Scotist Dominican Franciscan or Iesuite when you haue answered me touching those I will answere as touching Luther You call the Throne of God to witnes that if there be any heauen at all it is proper to you In any case auouch this boldly and confidently though he that looks into your lines may wel thinke there is no heauen at all For neither will you enter into heauen your selues nor suffer those that would and the liues of those of your side are such as are far fitter for hell then for heauen I know not Campian what heauen you dreame of if you meane the eternall habitation of God and his Saincts I take God to witnes the maker of this palace and all the heauenly citizens that there no place can be for you Papists false Catholicks Iesuites As you haue deuised a new faith whereby you must enter thither so must you seeke a new heauen in this you may not be God graunt you may returne at length into the right way that leadeth into heauen Now being fallen from heauen The damned you looke into hell I wish Campian you could seriously view those infernall regions and places of the damned for though I do willingly thinke nothing but well of the dead yet I feare you should find too too many of theÌ„ that haue flourished in your Church in those places Certainely to say nothing of the rest your later Popes as those which were called by the names of Boniface Innocent Siluester Gregory Calixt Vrbane Alexander Adrian Pius Leo Paul almost all the rest were such as hardly can any man thinke they could enter into heauen And further I call Christ the only teacher of heauenly doctrine to record that such is your faith and religion that who so maintaines it fullie and wholie cannot raigne with Christ nor be partaker of that heauenly life and therefore not Iewes only Pagans Turks and notorious Heretikes are tormented in that fire that neuer goes out but Papists also of all Heretikes the most vile and odious Infinite are the soules of Christian men which haue been throwne headlong into this most wofull destruction these many hundred yeares by that Antichrist of yours who alone hath more inlarged that infernall kingdome then all Iewes Nerves Mahomets Arians Nestorians Macedonians Eutychians and the rest To you Campian I wish that saluation which coÌ„sisteth in the true knowledge of God and whom he hath sent Iesus Christ and desire from my hart that now at length you will renounce that Romane Antichrist with whom you haue conuersed and returne vnto Christ the onely giuer of eternall life from whom too long you haue banished your selfe But let vs consider what these damned ones will further your cause Jewes The Iewes you begin with and heere you reckon Hierusalem holy places our Sauiours Sepulcher the Manger Crosse and other 〈◊〉 from all which you cannot draw one argument for your purpose I denie not but great concourse of people thronged vnto the Citie partly to heare and see the Apostles whiles they liued and also to behold those places where Christ the Sonne of God had conuersed and at Ierusalem were many things which might moue and perswade men to goe thither that were any thing curiously inclined And although the Church then was too much addicted to these obseruations and as a Spouse exceedingly delighted with any remembraÌ„ce of her deceassed husband yet was she then farre from those superstitious p DVR VVee doe but imitate our fore fathers who did such things not of curiosity but religiously Hier. Epist ad Macel Pailon August Epist ad Clerum Pop. Hipp. WHIT. pag. 878. But Christ saith Joh. 4.21.23 If then I may worship God with great fruiâ—e in mine owne countrie I see not why I should go to Hierusalem or any other place on Pilgrimage And if I haue the authoritie of the Scriptures obiect not vnto mee Hierom or Augustine or any other whoÌ„ I cannot allow to speake without Scripture against Scripture And as for Fathers know you not that Gregorie Nyssen hath with pregnant reason confuted all superstitious peregrinations wâ—it not Bernard Monkes must search for the heauenly not earthly Hierusalem vvhich they must goe vnto not by their feete but by affections pilgrimages and dotings on Images which with you Papists is now vsuall Neither was this often recourse of Christians into those places the cause of the Iewes hatred vnto theÌ„ as you vntruly surmise but the Gospell was the true cause of difference betwixt them and vs. Rom. 11.28 They vrge Moses wee teach that Moses must giue place to Christ q DVR They hate vs not so much for our faith and profession as because wee haue spoiled them of their kingdome and Priest-hood and haue cast them out of their countrie WHIT. pag. 877. But what Christian euer spoiled the Iewes of their kingdome or thus expelled them Did Caligula Titus or Adrian destroy the Iewes for the religion of Christ And if they hated you because you haue bereft them of their Priest-hood why not vs for the Gospell which teacheth that the Priesthood is translated from the posterity of Aaron vnto Christ from hence only proceeds their hatred vnto vs but you are odious vnto theÌ„ in many respects r DVR Many Jevves haue become Catholikes but not Caluinists as Jeuer heard of WHIT. pag. 878. We desire they might be made Christians not Caluinists as our Churches hath many of them I will 〈◊〉 you one of whom it were strange you should not haue heard Emanuell Treâ—â—lius a Iew borne being brought to the religion of Christ whom Caluin loued dearely and his Catechisme he translated into the Hebrew tongue your manifold idolatries continually hindering them from receiuing the Gospell of Christ Remoue your idols that we all that are called Christians may worship God in spirit and truth The Iewes then will ioyne themselues vnto vs and will speedily in great multitudes betake themselues to the sheepfold of Christ The Iewes complaine they haue been destroyed by your Auncestors whom meane you the Romanes who raced the Citie vnder the conduct of Titus These were enemies of the faith of Christ will you be their posteritie or what other Auncestors haue you that haue been author of so great calamitie vnto the Iewes They haue I graunt
2. cap. 35. whom they vsually called Atheist but an other Aetius the likenes of the names deceiued you To that you obiected concerning Vigilantius and Iouinian an answere is formerly giuen a DVR You speake vvitâ—ilie but you must of necessity do the one WHIT. pag. 884. If they haue defended any thing against the Scriptures they are heretikes but if not they cannot bee condemned by the iudgement of any Church for my part I neither meane to defend them nor can I greatly accuse thâ—m If they were hereticks conuince them of some error they held against the scriptures Hieromes passions can make no man an heretick Now you bring in the swarme of hereticks Macedonians PelagiaÌ„s Nestorians Eutychians the Mâ—â—otholites and Iconomachs These first we hate as hell it selfe those last haue committed nothing deseruing the name of hereticks To set vp and worship Images is hereticall but not to ouerthrow them What you iudge touching Luther and Caluinâ— is nothing materiall whiles they liued they nothing regarded you now they are dead they despise you what will you conclude at length from this hereticall companie Aâ—â— these you say forsooke the gouerment of your Church and were ouerthrowne by them Nay Campian these were your forefathers and you their progenie and successors for your monster of Poperie hath been hatched by the impure commixtion of all heresies But you now appeare out of hell Lands and are come to land and wheresoeuer you cast your eyes or thoughts All is your own as you say all subiect themselues and subscribe to your religion Me thinks I see that brainsick Merchant who standing by the sea and beholding the ships cried out all he saw was his owne otherwise such senselesse dreames could not proceed but from a wit and iudgement exceedingly weakned Sedes Apostolica For say you the Romane succession witnesseth in which Church as Austen speaketh the Primacie of the Apostolike chaire hath alwaies had the preeminence Many causes there were why speciall accompt in times past should be made of the church of Rome especially for that Rome was the seate of the Empire as approued in the Councell held at Constantinople Concil Constantinop 1. cap. 5. b DVR VVhy then may not he that is Bishop of this Church be ouer all other Bishops and so the Prince of Priests the chiefe Priest and supreame head of the rest WHIT. pag. 885. Because authoritie and dominion is not proper to them who are more excelleÌ„t then others which may bee shewed by infinite examples Who can be ignorant that the tribe of Iudah was the chiefe the first and the Prince of the other tribes will it therefore follow that the head of the principall family in this tribe had authoritie ouer all other tribes Aristotle was accounted the prince of Philosophers Homer of Poets Hippocrates of Physitians Apelles of Painters did they therefore exercise authoritie ouer all the rest of the same profession So though for a long time together the church of Rome for many respects was excellent among the rest yet it neuer had domination and rule ouer the rest of the Churches of Christ I graunt therefore thaâ—â—his Church was accompted the supreme chiefe greatest and the principall preferred before other Churches Trow you hence to conclude the Bishop of Rome is the chiefe and principall Bishop or head of the Church Concil Carthag 3. cap. 26. Dist 99 prima sedis Austen himselfe forbid it in the Councell of Carthage viz. that the Bishop of the chiefe Sea should not be called Prince of Priests or any like title Although then the holy Fathers for diuers respects gaue the preheminence to the church of Rome yet â—â—d they neuer acknowledge c DVR This prohibition was giuen by the Fathers because they knew that aâ— the soueraignty of the Apostolike Chaire did euer flourish in the Romane Church so they did not doubt but the manner of the chiefe Priest did appertainâ— onely to the Bishop of Rome WHIT. pag. 885. Nay the prohâ—bition of the Councell did as well concerne the Bishop of Rome whom all acknowledge to be the Bishop of the chiefe seate as the Bishops of other Seas Therefore for the time he obeyed the decree of the Councell and was content with his names and refused to be called the soueraigne chiefe Priest that infinite pâ—â—â—â—â—â—â—ll authority which he now challengeth neither â—â—d other Apostolike Churches whether they were founded by the Apostles themselues or by some of their schollers yeeld any testimonie of truth to the church of Rome Heere you stick in a quagmire and â—â—e faine by intreatie to beg that which by strong reason you should prooue and cannot But you vrge further and recompt the Pastors of seuerall countries to whaâ— end I pray you The remainderâ— say you of the labours of all those that haue published the Gospell in all nations farrs and wide all present vnto vs this same religion which Catholâ—kes at this day professe What could be affirmed more weakely for the Greeians are opposite vnto you which vnto this time haue their succession of Bishops not interrupted And further the spyeâ— which you send in your new found lands haue found in the furthest coasts thereof many monuments of that faith which we mainteine Osâ—rius neither may you preferre vs before them at least afore all you ought to preferre the truth Aristot. as the Philosopher saith But if you thinke your Popes and other glorious titles more auncient then the Gospell what can you alleage why Christ should not denie you to belong to him seeing you value any thing more then him Heere you tell vs of Princes Princes Kings Câ—sars Emperours and make a goodly shew of names as your manner is At length you meÌ„tion our noble Queenâ— Elizabeth and will needs teach her her dutie But she Campian needs no such Masters â—say 48. or instructiors She knoweth her selfe to be the nursing mother of the Church and that by diuine dispensation and accordingly doth she with all watchfulnes and care procure the good thereof and labours by all possible diligence to preuent all dangers intended by you and your adherents You say of Caluine and these Princes 〈◊〉 you haue spoken thâ—◠〈◊〉 heauen can noâ— containe theÌ„ But it passeâ—h your skill to pronounce certainely hereof nay your Pope himselfe cannot with all his might pull Caluiâ—â— out of heauen not any of them whom Christ hath made witnesses of his truth As for you and your fellowes we wish you not the gallowes but saluation I desire to hope the best of you and I doubt not but you might attaine to the knowledge of the truth in controuersie betwixt vs if for the time you could lay aside all preiudicate opinions and consult with the word of God and the holy Fathers of the Church As for the societie of Iesus whereunto you are admitted it braggeth that it is wholie at the Popes dispensation and loues Gregory the 13.
too well to loue Queene Elizabeth any thing at all who is so farre differing from him Nations conuerted to Christ You proceed and produce the vtmost coasts and countries of the world to testifie for you you should distinguish auncient and later times For graunt that the whole world had conspired with the Pope against Christ which it hath not that is no aduantage to you nor preiudice to vs d DVR You had spoken better if you had said that he forsakes the Gospell who affirmeth that the whole world conspireâ— against Christ. O miserable Caluinists who cannot defend their saith otherwise than by bereauing Christ of his kingdome and the whole christian world of faith WHIT. pag. 886. This is very true you say but Duraeus did we euer speak after this manner Will you keepe your custome of rayling and slaundering euen to the last act Nay rather O miserable Duraeus who blinded with malice and ignorance doth not feele your owne miserie Not the whole world but your Synagogue which is but a small part of the whole world hath conspired against Christ And is it to be feared least Christ should loose his kingdome and the world faith if your shaueling with his whole rabble fall froÌ„ the Gospell Though you be perfidious and wicked yet God will remaine alwaies faithfull and true whosoeuer forsakes the Gospell he is necessarily diuided from the Church To put to silence the oracles of the heathen Idols and carry the name of Christ vnto the Gentiles was no doubt a great worke and a diuine worke but that is none of your worke for you haue filled the world with Idols and as much as in you lay ouerturned the kingdome of Christ The Idols of the heâ—â—â—en haue been oâ—eâ—â—â—owne and the kingdome of God enlarged by the Apostles and Apostolike men â—â—â—e â—â—e oâ—e Papist or one Iesâ—ite amongst these For the Iesuites which assay to make new kingdomes amongst the Indians serue not Christ but the Pope not do they enlarge the kingdome of Christ but they prepare for the Pope a kingdome farre from the Lutheranes where he may raigne after he shall be banished from these countries c DVR You set vpon our societie and say vve haue diuided Christ Because certeine men haue chosen vnto them this name aboue all others to be accounted of the societie of Iesus because they haue consecrated theÌ„selues wholy to aduance this name must they therefore of necessitie diuide Christ haue not you Christ Colledge in Oxford WHIT. pag. 8â—6 I will not striue much with you about your societie of which I â—â—â—e very small account If you haue for some speciall consideration dedicated your selues vnto Christ what is that consideration why doe you not tell vs what Iesus requireth of you which all other Christians are not bound to doe If the order of your profession require that you propagate honour and magnifie the name Iesus if for this all Christians ought not to labour at least Bishops and specially your Pope and if they be Iesâ—ites who doe this why â—re not all your Diuines Bishops Cardinals and Popes Iesuites It may bee this care is â—arre from them Whereas then nameâ— are for distinguishing of things they be needlesse and vaine when there iâ— no difference in the thing Either shew vs what is the proper peculier duties of Iesuits or confesse that without any cause you haue appâ—opriated such a â—â—me vnto theÌ„ In Cambridge aswell â—s in Oxford we haue both Christ and Iesus Colledge but they that liâ—e in those Colledges are called onely Christians Thinke you that because there are many Colledgeâ— different in names there are many differeÌ„t Orders professions of men In places distinctions of names are necessarie and without danger vnlesse some schisme may happeÌ„ betwixt yâ— wâ—ls Haue you no other thing to say for your sect societie You aske is Christ diuided I answere you Iesuites haue diuided him els why haue you separated Iesus from Christ and leauing the auncient ordinary names of Christians which you scorne as too common you desire rather to be called Iesuites a new name of your owne framing then Christians As though there were some societie of Iesus appropriated to one kind of men separated from other Christians If there be then is Christ deuided if not then you Iesuites are too impudent to deuise a new societie You say either we or he preach a wrong Christ This of necessitie must be so But Luther preached the true Christ storme the Pope neuer so much looke then what Iesus what Christ you haue amongst you the true Christ it is not I beseech you Campian for Christes sake consider well whom you haue forsaken to whome you haue betaken you into what danger you haue cast your selfe But you will tell vs who is the true Christ I listen to heare it let him bâ— true Christ and on their side by whose bringing in Dagons neck was broken With a good will Christ by vs preached hath within these few yeares throwne downe an infinite sort of your Dagons for so soone as Christ accompanied with his Gospell got footing in any place your Dagons out of hand fell downe and had not only their armes and legs broken but necks also Patrick in Ireland and Palladius in Scotland what they were I meane not to search We Englishmen I graunt receiued much good by Austen the Monke and much euill also and superstition which he brought in with him It is plaine that we had receiued the Christian faith in Brittany many ages before his comming hither How it was by him increased or hindred I will not say But he liued sixe hundred yeares after Christ which as I iudge was not the purest time of the Church but as others affirme the age was most corrupt Now to conclude because to prosecute all were infinite you gather a heape of witnesses together the Vniuersities written lawes the common fashions of all people choyce of Emperours kingly rites orders of Knighthood habites church windowes coines gates houses all things great and small vnto all which I answere in a word if an Angell from heauen should preach vnto vs an other Gospell then that which Christ hath taught the Apostles published our Churches now professe we would reiect and detest it much lesse do we stand vpon these toyes of yours and maâ—â—ers of â—oâ—omâ—nt The florishing Vniuersitieâ— auncient lawâ— and iâ— all kinds monuments of great antiquitie all these afford vnto vs an open testimonie of the truth we professe Thus haue we heard your ten-fold Apollogy wherein I perceiue you haue bestowed no small diligence how you haue therein preuailed I leaue the iudgement to others If you haue satisfied none more therein then our Vniuersitie men I can assure you you haue lost your labour and are disappointed of your hope For my owne part though in this case I professe my selfe your aduersary yet your person Campian I loue as farre as a Christian may loue a Iesuite And I