ought as well as other Offerings be laid aside according to that Thou shalt not bring the hire of a Whore nor the price of a dog into the house of the Lord c. And what agreement hath the Temple of God with Idols Deut. 23.18 Pr. But now I pray you according to your judgement what must become of all our Churches It seems by your argument if one may believe you they must all be plucked down as the Brownists teach what say you to that Ph. Touching the name CHURCH in your sense I do not greatly like it for it properly signifieth a Companie and is used for the companie of the faithful yet for the present I shall admit the word by a Metonymie to signifie the place of their meeting And I do not conceive there is any necessitie to pluck these Churches or meeting places down I contess I put no holiness in them and think the Congregation may as well meet in any other convenient place and that there is neither Legal nor Evangelical holiness in them And that plucking down all the Popish and superstitious pictures and Monuments of Idolatrie I do not mean the Arms of men of renown and placing a faithfull Ministerie there is a sufficient purging of these places to make them fit for the people of God to meet in for partaking of the holy Ordinances of God Pr. Why say you so These Churches were founded by Papists and have been used to Idolatrie And therefore you may as well allow of the things you speak against even now as these Churches I think both ought to be allowed indifferently Ph. I hold there is great difference First for those I spake of formerly we are sure they were the inventions of the Man of sin and its possible to shew when and how they were brought into the Church of Rome But these Churches at least manie of them are more ancient then Poperie or Antichrist for it s not possible that Antichrist could come untill the Roman Empire was broken and removed which was at least four hundred years after Christ Before which Christianitie was plentifully spread in England and many Churches and Congregations planted for the true worship of God 2 Thes 7 8. Reve. 13.2 Antiquitie with full consent agree that Christianitie was here planted in or neer the Apostles daies and that upon occasion of the Persecution that rose about Stephen Acts 11.19 divers of the Apostles and Disciples came into England amongst whom the Ancients reckon Peter Paul Joseph of Aramathea and Symon Zelotes And that some Brittaines both men and women were famous Christians and some suffered Martyrdom here in the first ten Persecutions Fox Act. Mon. vo p. 147. 148. Speeds Chron pa. Now then we cannot conceive but that the pietie and devotion of those times when they had a Christian King Lucius An. 180. pr. Christ and Christianitie countenanced and priviledged by divers of the Emperors especially Constantine and Theodosius would stir up the Christians to build them meeting places Besides about the year six hundred when Augustin the Monck falsly called the English Apostle came into England sent by Pope Gregorie the Great who had not taken upon him the Title of universal Bishop he found the reliques of manie Churches and Congregations of Christians planted in England and Wales Fox Act. Mon. vo pa. 150.151 And he disputed with the Monks of Bangor about Ceremonies by which it s conceived he brought not so much Religion with him as he did superstition and Introductions to Popery for the Brittains had learned Religion from better Tutors It s true afterwards these meeting places were generally all polluted with Popish Idolatry all which with the Reliques thereof being swept out they are clean as before Pr. But what say you to this many of our Churches were Idols Temples Goodw. Ant. Ro. ca. 20. de delubro Ph. The Parish Churches I conceive were built for the service of the true God the forms of them are unlike the Idol Temples But I confess some of the Cathedrall Churches were the Temples of Idols as of Jupiter Apollo Janus and Diana some of which are demolished and some were new built as Pauls at London by Ethelbert the King about 1060 years since At which time hee put out the Flammins and Arch-flammins and set up Arch-Bishops and Bishops These Churches were built and dedicated to Idols or rather Devils and false Gods and therefore ought to be demolished as I conceive according to that Law Ye shall destroy all the places where they served their Gods and break down their Altars c. Deut. 12.2 3 c. Pr. Well I hope shortly to see the Church-government setled with the Classes and Synods and that thereby all things will be well reformed for the Appeals will regulate every thing which is irregularly done and many will see more then a few Ph. I should be glad to see a through Reformation but I do much feare these Prudentiall things the Classes Synods and Appeals to them will prove but imprudentiall and Physicians of no value And I doubt not but those who put the Parliament upon them have their own ends and aims in them Pr. Why say you so the Church of Antioch did appeal to the Councell at Jerusalem in a case of Conscience Acts 15. and why may not we do the like Pr. I deny that there was any such Appeale as you mean its true the Church of Antioch in a case of conscience did voluntarily send Paul and Barnabas and other brethren to Jerusalem to advise with the Apostles Elders and Church there about that matter And accordingly they received the sentence and judgement of the whole Church as well Brethren as Apostles and Elders which Apostles had extraordinary gifts of knowledge and revelation and what they directed them was in stead of the written Word We have no persons so gifted in these daies but must have recourse to the Law and the Testimonies the written Word of God Pr. But do you not think that these Classes and Appeals will be of excellent use for cropping and curbing of Errors Heresies and Sectaries and keeping the Church free from pollution Ph. I am unwilling to tell you what I think of Presbyterial Gonernment I le say nothing of it but take thus much mark the end and observe it These things the Classes Synods and Appeals can never profit the Church of Christ The Appeals are in effect the same wee had before from the Arch-Deacon to the Consistory of the Bishop from thence to the Arches then to the Audience and then to the Delegates so from the Congregation Presbyterie to the Classes from the Classes to the Provinciall Synod then to the Nationall Here is work for the Civill Lawyers to wyer-draw a cause as a Proctor once said untill dooms day if he lived so long These are not so likely to do good as the superintendencie of Bishops which grew up within the first three hundred years after Christ and were ordained
idle some erroneous if not hereticall in their judgments And attained with their Lordships Hierarchicall superstitions I could name others of inferior ranke of great note for learning pietie and soundness of judgement even in points controversall who upon conformitie after long standing out accepted great livings and presently became the very Atlas's of popish Ceremonies Vpon all which I conclude that these pretended reformers having heretofore tasted of the Devils broth in their conformitie and subscription and having not yet repented of it will shortly fall to eat the flesh and swallow up any thing which makes not against their honor or profit Pr. You cast very foule aspersions upon our reverend Clergie and have drawn mee into a discourse which I never intended I intimated to you before that it 's the peoples fault that they do not joyne with their Ministers to settle the Church and reforme the abuses in the same It 's an easier matter to finde a fault then to amend it for my part I think the perversness and peevishness of the people is the cause which hindreth Reformation for that they will abide no government but every one will be of his own Religion without controul Ph. I cannot excuse all the people nor think I all faultie who are afraid of having their Religion measured out unto them by the Presbyterie especially by the rigid sort who account all error and heresie which suites not with their conceptions and all men schismaticks and Sectaries whose consciences are not just of their size and yet I am perswaded that reformation goeth not forward is chiefly the fault of the pretended Clergie Pr. How can that be or how doth it appear Pr. Because most of the pretended Ministers must be casheired before there can be any reformation for either the Ministers are dumb blinde guides or els so prophane irreligious or superstitious that if they be reformers their Elders in all probabilities will be of the same stamp to joyne with them And then I leave it to you to judge what reformation here 's like to be when Satan must cast out Satan Pr. This is the condition but of few places many being better furnished both with Ministers and people Ph. The most of the best sort of Ministers stand so much upon their own interests and besides are in so great slaverie to their Patrons that we see they straine their wits to advance their own honor and profit and to please men least either their Livings should suffer any diminution or some one finde a hole in their coat some Symonie lapse or other flaw in their Title whereby to put them out of their Living which before they will loose the most will adventure their souls And upon these grounds it is that every one living within the compasse of their Parish or their perambulation walk must be acknowledged one of their flock and comming to Church he is without doubt a member of the visible Church how ignorant or wicked soever or els how can they demand any Tythes or offerings from them And for the same reason the Ministers labor to preserve their Parishes intire and not to leave out any part thereof least they loose the Tythe and benefit which comes by it And hence is it that they maintain every Parish to be a visible Church although there be neither lawfull Minister nor any Congregation of faithfull people there who have given any testimonie that they are members of Christ or of the houshold of faith Pr. These things may easily be amended and I presume when the Church is setled and the Presbyterian government with the Classes and Synods confirmed these things which are amiss may be altered or changed they are but pettie blemishes and the Ministers will therein satisfie the weak and such as are offended But it s well you have no greater matters to charge them with Ph. I could acquaint you with other abhominable things maintained by your Ministers on purpose to satisfie their lusts of pride and covetousness to which all other things are but drudges besides what I formerly told you off which although you account them pettie matters yet are they repugnant to the essence of a Church of Christ And I see none goeth about to amend them they have Elders and Officers chosen as if they intended reformation but the Ministers and their confederates the Elders do but provoke the Lord grieve his holy Spirit and mock and abuse the people of God Where is anie of your great Presbyters that ever confessed that his Parish was too great and the people too manie although they were twentie thousand and his Living worth 500 l. per annum or that anie of the people were so wicked that hee would spare them out of his Church or defired to have his Parish divided that hee might make way for others more able to worthie then himself Least also hee should part with some of his Tythes and so diminish his revenue and greatness which is against his honour and profit Pr. I have already given you satisfaction to that you now said and tell you again wee must not expect to have a reformation at once it s a matter requires time and autoritie to compell obedience to the Orders of the Church and then you shall see the Presbyterie act vigorously and reformation will undoubtedly go on apace But I pray you what are those other things to which you take exception as things abominable and yet maintained by the Clergie Ph. They defend and maintain their Popish callings from the Prelates their old conformitie and subscription which ingaged them to bee the Prelates and so the Popes Vassals the Patrons right to present to the Churches the Popish and Apocryphal names of Priests Parsons Vicars and Curates the Book of Common Prayer and Homilies and use of popish Ceremonies maintenance by Popish and superstitious offerings double benefices leaving one living when they can get a greater thrusting themselvs upon people without their suffrage consent maintaining Popish Vestries beeing a mear mockerie of Christs Ordinance as if they intended to separate the precious from the vile when they do nothing less All which things with others might easily bee shewed to bee abominable and not to bee suffered in the Churches of Christ Besides these they plead stifly that marrying burying and funerall Orations belong to the Ministerial function and allow of all children to bee baptized although the Children of Turks and Infidels but especially those of their Parish if they bee offered to them how wicked soever their parents are And in like manner they admit all to the Lords Supper how unfit soever if they come but to Church These and others such like have I heard pleaded for with great confidence whilest they have blamed others who take upon them to preach not having such callings as they howsoever gifted and yet for advantage they will bear with anie novice or ignorant fellow having been two or three years or it may be less at the Universitie
how its possible these Parochiall Congregations can be purged without disbanding there are so few who are fit to be Church-members and so many of the wicked Pr. Although we have not the Discipline set up to sweep and cleanse the Church yet we endeavor to put a difference between the precious and the vile and to give everie one their portion and to order things in the best manner we can both for the Ministerie and people Ph. It s true you have the Image or rather counterfeit of some such thing as putting a difference in he Popish Vestries But I pray you what garments have you to keep there that the Vestrie must needs be upheld the Whoores smock with the Cope Rochet Tippet and other trumperie are gone And I know not any of Baals Priests here who now use such vestments that there is any need of a Vestrie to put them in or that so manie men need be trusted with them Pr. That meeting which you scoffe at is no such Vestrie it s only a place for the heads of the Parish to meet in to consult about the affairs and Orders of the Church and for setling and chusing the Minister when there is need and providing maintenance for him Ph. It seems then that those Vestrie-men who are there to consult are more worthie then the rest who are without and may not intermeddle with these things about which they consult These do very well resemble the conclave of Cardinals at Rome advising about the chusing deposing and ordering the affairs of the Pope and his Church But I pray you by what Law of God have these your Vestrie men autoritie to elect and put out the Minister and to prescribe rules and Lawes for the residue of the people I protest against all their Orders and agreements how just soever they may seeme as not daring to submit to such an usurped power being contrarie to Christian libertie in which the Apostle Paul commands the Galatians and in them all Christians to stand fast and to maintain the same as being purchased by Christ himself Gal. 5.1 compared with chap. 3.1 3. chap. 4.10 Pr. I confess this Vestrie is not a right Presbyterie nor claim they any such power by colour of any divine Law But yet for order and conveniencie I think they ought to be tolerated untill the time of reformation But Sir what doth this concern you It becomes you to be a hearer and a learner rather then a Teacher having no calling thereunto Ph. It concerns me and every Christian as a member of the Church if your Church be a true Church to elect our own Minister and not to have him thrust upon us either without or against our wills or consents as the manner now is And he that comes in otherwise then by the suffrage of the people enters not by the door but comes in as a Thief and a Robber and hath no lawful calling Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 15. Act. 14.23 Pr. For our calling to the Ministerie we doubt not of it nor ever questioned it being confident its warrantable Those who ordained us being Bishops and lawfull Presbyters or at least they stood in the place of such and acts don by them are valid Sacraments administred by Papists and other hereticks are right Sacraments so they be duly administred for the matter although joyned with their corruptions And I hold it unlawfull for any man to take upon him the Office or function of a Minister without a lawfull calling And I finde that in those ancient Canons called the Canons of the Apostles it is ordained that one Bishop may ordain a Presbyter Ph. This is a poor and insufficient calling if a Bishop had any autoritie to ordain a Minister or to judge of his gifts in order to his admission to a Church which I denie and the same is a point of Poperie yet that thereupon the Churches suffrage or assent should be by the Bishop conferred upon the Minister is against all sense and reason much more against Religion which ought to be squared by the word as the Rule Mar. de vulson de libert de le Eglises Gallicane Pag. 148. ca. 9. And for your Canons of which you speak none regard them but the more ignorant sort of Papists they being known to be of a later date then the Apostles and are credited as much as Lucianus scoffes Tobits and Judiths stories or Jeffery Munmouth his tales And those Canons were coyned just at his time some four hundred years since by some of Jeffery's Religion But can you shew no more then this for your calling then give over railing against others who have not the same and yet it may be a better calling then you have Pr. Why what do our Ministers of the Church of England want or what is requisite to a lawfull Calling to the Ministerie Ph. Besides abilities of gifts and inward graces every Minister ought to have a more due ordination and this is to be performed by the Church or Congregation for the better effecting whereof they may take the advice of the learned who are able to make tryal of his gifts and of his abilitie and aptness to teach And then the same is perfected by the free election or suffrage of the people who are Church-members And in these things the Scripture is plain shew how you have such a calling Pr. For the first I had thought I had given you satisfaction alreadie when I told you we were ordained by Bishops who had abilitie to judge of the Ministers gifts and were or stood in the place of true Presbyters And for that which you call Election or the Suffrage or assent of the people although it have no place with us regarding everie circumstance in the formalitie of it yet we have that which is equivalent to it Ph. I pray you what is that Pr. We at the least some of us have the consent of the Parish or at least the most of them either before or after our admission and if not we are presented by the Patron of the Church who is instead of all the Congregation being their representative in as much as he was intrusted by them all to chuse for them all in regard of their weakness and to avoid confusion in the election and his act in presenting is the act of all the people as the Acts of Parlament being made by those who are chosen by the people are the Acts of the people And the people are bounden as well by the Acts of the one as of the other yet if any man except against the person presented he bath his liberty to do it Ph. O most profound divinitie or rather notable poperie By the same Rule and upon the same ground the Pope collated to many Churches in England and the Bishops had the oversight of all the Churches in their Diocesses some peculiars excepted and put in and put out at their pleasures and this must be allowed for the people
degree preacheth or at least publisheth by reading the word of God and administreth the Sacraments to the people therefore in charitie they ought to be accounted the Church of God Ph. The division of Parishes and such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of are not sufficient to give the Parish Congregation the denomination of a visible Church of Christ For then must almost all the Congregations under the Papacie be visible Churches for amongst them the Parishes are divided and so they were in England almost 340. before any Reformation And those Popish Congregations had the word of God dailie read nay and preached constantly and expounded in manie places by their Friers and Postillers as may be seen by their works in Print Nay and their verie Mass-Books have much of the word of God in them although most miserably corrupted and mingled with their own inventions They have also had both Sacraments amongst the Papists for a long time and have yet at least Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 11. Baptisme mingled with Popish Ceremonies of which the Cross is the worst and some other footsteps of a true Church And if these had made a Congregation a true Church poore Penry was unwise to publish that a great part of Wales never had the face of a Church of Christ the Parishes being divided and the Churches furnished with such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of Yet he and others have formerly charged the State with refusing the Gospel and rejecting Christ and his pure worship in as much as there was no Reformation although it cost him and others their lives for their boldnes Entri Cook Judit pa. 352. Pr. You speak of dark Corners of the Land as if none were in better condition you may finde amongst the manie thousand Parishes of this Nation manie visible Churches of Christ and mine in particular Ph. I doubt not but there are manie visible Churches of Christ in this Common-wealth and true Ministers of Christ lawfully called But when I pray you became your Parish to be a true visible Church of Christ Pr. My Parish hath been a visible Church ever since it was instituted and the Church founded you know not the contrarie and therefore ought to admit it having so continued beyond the memorie of man until this day Ph. When was your Church founded Pr. You your self have confessed that the Gospel was planted in England before Poperie came to its height and the Ministerie and Churches were then setled and had succession from the Apostles daies shew me when the Succession failed Ph. If I should admit the place that you call Church viz. the meeting Place to have been built before Poperie yet this proves not that the Congregation is a visible Church your succession hath had several interruptions and discontinuance First it is to be considered that the whole Current of Historie agree that the Romans commanded the better part of Brittaine from the time of Julius Caesar until Theodosius the younger which was almost five hundred years and the tenth Persecution about 337. years after Christ during which time there were not above five of the Emperours who were either Christians or shewed favour to Christians but generally all the rest first or last in their times were wicked Persecutors Heathens and worshippers of Idols some of which by exquisite Torments wasted the Churches of Christ and drove the Professors into corners they not daring to meet in publick When the Roman Empire was broken or at least was grown to an ebb the Saxons invaded this Island and about the year foure hundred and fiftie the Brittains were beaten into Wales by Gormundus and thence grew the great Colledge of Moncks at Bangor with whom Austin contended And the Saxons as well as the Romans were Heathens and had their Idol Priests Flammins and Arch-Flammins like the late Bishops and Arch-Bishops for dignitie and Power and these continued until about six hundred years after Christ where is now your Succession Pr. But yet there were manie faithful Christians both Pastors and others in the worst times and I could tell you of manie who suffered Martyrdome for Christ's cause in this Nation and if we cannot prove Succession it is rather for want of the light of Historie then for that there were no such Churches or Pastors Nevertheless from the time of the abolishing of the Heathens Hierarchie and Idolatrie which was done by King Ethelbert above a thousand years since we have a verie fair Succession Ph. This indeed manie of you boast of but it makes little for your purpose To omit to speak of the miserie brought upon this Land and the decay of the true Religion by meanes of the incursions or rather Conquests of the Saxons and Danes after Ethelberts time It is certain and you cannot denie it that all your successions both of Ministerie and Parish-Churches came from your Mother the Church or rather the Whore of Rome who had all at her devotion until King Henrie the eight drove out the Pope and kept Poperie Cath. Divine An. Caudreys Case P. 108.109 Bed l. 1. Hist Angl. ca. 22. 27. Pr. Well it s true that for about five hundred years untill the Reformation began the Bishop of Rome usurped authoritie over the Church of England but yet all did not submit alike some faithfull men escaped both Ministers and people as John Wickliff and his followers persecuted by the name of Lollards who grew in great number even in our Countrie about two hundred years before the Reformation From which time of Reformation you cannot denie but that my Parish in particular hath been a true visible Church where there hath been a competent number of faithful people and a Minister who claimed nothing from Rome for the Popes Supremacie was abolished by King Henrie the eight as you now said Ph. If the rejecting of the Popes Supremacie make your Parish a true Church then likewise are the most of the Popish Congregations of France true Churches for they likewise have rejected or refused to receive the Popes Supremacie and have not received the Councel of Trent but have had a Pope a Cardinal of their own for manie years past And Cardinal Richelieu called a Prince of the Church was as great a Pope as William Laud late Prelate of Canterburie Marc. de vulson des Libert de'l Eglise Gallicane lib. 3. pa. 233.234.235 Pr. You cannot denie the Succession of faithful Ministers which if you admit you must also admit the Succession of Churches since the time of Reformation Ph. For your Succession it s a mear dream If at any time there was no visible Parish-Churches then was there no Pastors of those Churches for although there may be a visible Church without a Pastor as when the Pastor dieth the Church is not unchurched yet can there be no Pastor of a Church unless there be such a Church in being And for your Succession since the last pretended Reformation it was interrupted in Queen
Maries daies when a Popish Priest was your Predecessor who had his autoritie from the Bishop who was a Papist and held of the Pope I could tell you their names if need were And neither that Priest or any of his Successors ever since have had any other calling or Ordination but from the Bishops as long as they were standing Pr. If this were true touching Succession yet you cannot denie but that we have the word and Sacraments and a companie of faithful Christians communicating in those Ordinances under a faithfull Pastor are a visible Church of Christ Ph. Touching the Word and Sacraments I have alreadie given you an answr and indeed the Papists and almost all Hereticks pretend as you do and have the word amongst them and their Ministers or Priests have as orderly a Calling and Ordination as yours have and yet this makes them not the true visible Churches of Christ as all you do acknowledg Pr. I do not conceive that the Papists have either the Word or Sacraments amongst them for that the word is so corrupted by their false Glosses and Translations that it s made a leaden rule to be bowed everie way to serve their own turn for upholding their superstitions and their service is in Latine which the common people understand not And for the Sacrament of Baptisme it hath so manie additions that the Nature of it is destroied And for their Ministerie they are professed Papists and adversaries to Christ in all his Offices Ph. I do confess their Ministers are no Ministers of Christ but lims of Antichrist in respect of their Callings yet I do not condemn them all as Reprobates no more then I do Pope Gregorie the great Thomas a Kempis Ferus Stella and other their Preachers whom I think to have been godly and devout men in their times And for corrupting the Scriptures if putting false Glosses upon them make Gods word cease to be Gods word then are you Formalists deeply guiltie for the vulgar Translation is abominably corrupt and yet you allowed it and manie of you used it translated in the late Service-Book And all that you alledge for your succession of Ministerie and visible Churches your Classes Councels and Synods their autoritie over other Churches compelling others by the Temporall Power to believe and worship God as they see best is in effect grounded upon or agreeing with the corrupt Glosses and notes of the Rhemists upon the New Testament and other popish Authors and thence fetched by the late Formalists to defend themselves against the Puretans And for the Latine Service it is much like our Organ Anthems both edifying alike and the one as tollerable as the other See the old Protestant and New Formalist Pa. 36.37 Aud concerning the Papists addition of Cream Salt Spittle c. to the Sacrament of Baptisme I confess the addition wicked and abominable and yet no worse haply nor so bad as the Cross which you received and used for that serves to blesse or rather conjure all the rest and is honored with Divine honour and an holie daie appointed for it And yet I must tell you that with one consent you allow of this Sacrament administred by the Papists who do not administer it but with these additions to be a true Sacrament And you hold that those who were baptized by Papists are not to be rebaptized Pr. For my part I have cast off these corruptions and am constant to those principles tending to Reformation which others my Reverend Brethren of the Clergie have approved of and I am now about to set up the Government of Christ in my Parish Ph. I fully understand your designe you and your fellowes intend the old but not the oldest way of pretended Reformation wherein you shuffle and cut as fast as Hocus Pocus and your proceedings are so ridiculous that everie indifferent capacitie hath light enough through your figleaves to see your nakedness Pr. Wherein are we guiltie of such shufling or why are we so ridiculous Ph. In your proceedings for upholding your Parishes you pretend one thing viz. Reformation but your end and designe is to avoid the danger of loosing your Livings in case the Parishes should be dissolved Pr. I know nothing we do for which we can be justly censured we continue our preaching and do endeavour to settle Presbyterian Government according to Gods word Ph. For your preaching I earnestly desire you may sincerely applie your selves to it for that probably may do some good but for your other fetches and devices they savour more of Politicks then Religion squared by Gods word Pr. What Policie can there be in setling the Presbyterian Government with the Classes and Synods we settle nothing but what we are willing likewise to submit unto and to be judged by as well as the people Ph. Let the Government be what it will so your Livings and estates may be secured it s no great matter if the Parlament please but to declare that all your Parishes are visible Churches that you may hold them intire and the people be inforced to pay you all your Tithes Oblations obventions Mortuaries and other dues you will be satisfied and wait for further Reformation when it may stand with your honour and profit And upon that condition you will submit to the present Government of the Common-wealth But if your interest in these things be interrupted or in danger you know no other way to secure them but by setling this Government And this is the mark at which you shoot take but a view of those places your own Parish for one where the Elders are chosen do they serve for anie thing but Cyphers or do you and they act anie thing towards Reformation but meerly to this end and purpose Pr. I do confess if the Churches were equall or independent so there were Government as well in Church as Common-wealth and other things in order it might be well And where the Elders are chosen if Reformation go not on it is because the Elders refuse to act or joyne with the Minister Ph. I confess I know some nominated for Elders who make scruple to joyne with you in your business haply because they have found out your deceit which is meerly to make a shew of Reformation but your chief end is the securing your Livings Pr. That is not the cause of their refusal it is because the Parlament doth not arme them with power to execute their Offices and compell obedience to their injunctions as is fit for Ecclesiastical Magistrates Ph. If your proceedings were of God you would not need the secular Power to compel to obedience such as are within the Church and for those which are without you have nothing to do with them The censures of the Church are Gods Ordinance for that end and are most effectual But for that compulsive power you speak of it savours of the Tyrannie of Antichrist and so doth your title of Ecclesiastical Magistrate which title I have not heard
used by anie Orthodox Minister since the Lord Bishops those Popish Ecclesiastical Magistrates were cashiered who were indeed neither Magistrates nor Ministers but like the Pope between both Pr. I confess the Elders formerly chosen some years since in my Parish have refused to act to my great grief But now lately I my self and the Church-wardens have nominated others and the Parish have assented to the choice and although the persons chosen will not take upon them the Office of the Eldership yet they have assented to joyne with me in debarring the scandalous and profane from the Lords Table which is a chief point of Reformation and I rejoice much in it Ph. How did you prevail to bring the business so far Pr. I had found some difficultie in it but that at last I gave the honest partie who best liked our proceedings good satisfaction and so the choice was verie free and unanimous none opposing Ph. How was that possible seeing all the people within your Parish liked not of your proceeding how came it to pass that none declared against it Pr. I do confess some few there are in my Parish whom I knew to be of contrarie judgement and some stick not to say our proceedings are Antichristian and have no foundation in the word of God but I took a course to have all such absent when the matter was debated and at the choice of those Assistants Ph. What course did you take I desire to know for I have heard you censured for that business Pr. First I conferred with the wealthiest best and most leading men in my Parish before I came to the choice some in private and some in companie with others at several meetings and gave them satisfaction and these I knew would draw the most of the common sort And for the rest whom I knew I could not convince I warned them publickly in the Church to absent themselves and by message privately I desired such as I thought would oppose to forbear to hinder us in that business And by this means and by telling the men who were to be chosen that they should only assist mee in keeping the scandalous and ignorant from the Communion and do nothing els they assented and I hope whll cheerfully joyne with me in that work Ph. Now do you think this is a sufficient Reformation Pr. It is a principal part thereof we must wait untill we can bring on the rest Ph. It seems there your pretended Elders are no Elders but assistant I am sorrie you have shewed your self so bold as to set up a new Office in your pretended Parish Church shew me where ever anie man pretending to be a Minister of Christ by himself or with two three or four more usurped that power over a thousand persons as you and your new fashion Elders if they be rul'd by you intend to do I confess in the Popish Congregations and lately here in England the same was practised The Bishop or his Chancellour with a Presbyter or Minister did excommunicate or debar from the Sacrament but in worst times no man could be suspended without a Presbyter joyning in that act And the Church-Wardens which are yet in request were assistants to the Priest as your new fashion Elders are and both alike keep Christ out of his Kingdom and so most suitable to your Parish Churches which are not fit for lawfull Elders no more then they are capeable of lawful Ministers Pr. I have erected no new Office but the same which the Scripture holds forth only their power is limited by mutual assent of them and the Minister And for the exercise of that power in keeping the scandalous and profane from the Sacrament it is included within and is part of their Office Mat. 18.17 where the Church signifieth the Ministers and Elders who are the representative Church for the rest it s answered before Ph. That question concerning the Church I will not enter into but leave it to the learned who have sufficiently discussed it But for my part I am confident no such construction can be made of that place for the Church alwaies signifieth the whole bodie Ministers and people or the members distinct from the Officers Pr. This question being one of the principles upon which all the Controversies between us and the Independents are founded I shall wholly wave you you have heard my opinion in publick to which I adhere and shall do untill I see better cause to alter my judgement Ph. Let that pass but what was the reason why you carried the business of chusing your pretended Elders so clandestinely and with such policie without hearing other mens opinions who were of contrarie judgment Pr. To tell you the truth I feared opposition and that the work may be hindered and therefore I desired to avoid all occasions and to carrie on the work as smoothly as I could and I am glad of it Ph. It s a sign you think your mettal is naught because you fear the Touch-stone The truth seeks no corners but in light shines more clearly Pr. The truth may have opposition and yet is the same still We fear not the touchstone but the sleights of men who most oppose those things which are best Ph. It seems now you have your desire what proceedings have you made towards Reformation do your pretended Elders act according to your minde do you think they perform their dutie Pr. Yea truly I have much comfort in them and doubt not but we shall separate the precious from the vile and yesterday we made a verie hopeful beginning insomuch as they undertooke to do in joyning with me to keep the scandalous and profane from the Lords Table Ph. What course did you take to make that separation Pr. The Elders refer it to me to examine all those who were to communicate the week before they came to the Sacrament and accordingly I published my intention not to admit anie who did not come to the Church at the time appointed to be examined And manie of my Parish came and submitted themselves to be examined accordingly Ph. Your pretended Elders are verie confident it seems they see with your eyes and hear with your ears But I pray you what did you finde by examining those who came to you and concerning what did you examine them Pr. I questioned those whom I suspected to be ignorant about the grounds of Religion and touching the nature of the Sacraments and and for others whom I feared not I did not examine them at all although some of those came to me and others sent in their names and I entred them all in a Book as well such as appeared as those who sent in their names and did not appear Ph. But did you all this your self I mean examine the people judicially in order to their admission to or suspension from the Lords Table and that by the advice of your new Elders or assistants surely herein they made you an absolute Pope and sole Judge of
that which the Bishops never allowed nor do your Brethren of the Province of London approve thereof But was this all you did I doe suppose you and your Elders should have informed your selvs whether such as intended to communicate had set up Christ in their Families and places in the exercises of Religion and had shewed forth by their conversations the signs of faith and Repentance these things are necessarie for all Communicants Ph. For the lives of the Communicants they are better known to others then to me and for my part I shall not take notice of them but do desire that those who are privie to such offences as may justly debar the receivers from the Sacrament will make it known to me and I shall acquaint the Church viz the Elders with it and take their advice what to do And so shall I likewise crave their assistance in Judiciall Examination for the future Ph. It seems you go no further but only to bring the people to conform to your new Government for I understand you had some of your Communicants were so verie ignorant that they could not tell you how manie Commandements there are and others knew not what Faith was and others answered as ignorantly And yet the names of these were taken by you and they admitted to the Lords Table and none were refused Pr. It s true I confess I found some ignorant but verie willing to conforme and receive instruction and that gave me good hope of them And therefore for the present least I I should discourage others I admitted all that offered themselves at the Table whose names I had before entred in my Book and divers others who were not of my Parish came also to my Church to receive at the same time for the incouragement of others Ph. Do you account this superficial dealing separating the precious from the vile when none are refused It is just as I expected it would be this is but the Counterfeit of Reformation and much like the Reformation which manie in the Church of Rome would willingly have for they have written divers Books tending to Reformation so it might not demolish the stately Fabrick of their pretended Church but might rather polish it by taking away those things which all men crie shame of and which do therefore indanger their Church the reforming of which would give them more hope of the continuance of the old Idolatrous Babel which yet together with all your devices will ere long come to ruine Pr. Nothing is perfect when its first brought forth what ever you think I conceive this to be a good begining of Reformation and I hope we shall proceed in it to more perfection But touching the Reformation of the Church of Rome I never expect anie they being appointed to destruction These are but the discouragements of you and others who oppose the setting up of all Government in the Church Ph. I have often told you we do not oppose all Government we would only have this building demolished that a better might be set up in the roome of it Pr. What course would you have for preaching the Gospel if the present Ministerie should be removed and the Churches disbanded Ph. Without doubt the Parliament seeth how that may be provided for For my part I wish that all the Parishes were dissolved as to the matters of the Church and all the Tithes belonging to the late Bishops Arch-Bishops Deans and Chapters Donatives Parsons and Vicars were released or sold at a reasonable rate to the owners of the Lands out of which they arise And these probably without anie addition may raise a sufficient revenue for maintenance of a godly and able Ministerie through this whole Common-wealth to preach the Gospel to all who will hear the word of God And all who shall be found worthie may be imployed Pr. What will this conduce for Reformation Ph. By this means this plant I meane this Popish Order of Ministerie who unjustlie usurp authoritie over the bodies souls and States of men calling them their Churches their Parishes their flock their sheep and their Tithes as if all were theirs nothing Christs not being of the planting of our heavenly Father will be plucked up which being removed the faithfull will have libertie and opportunitie to separate themselvs from the wicked and profane and be gathered unto Christ under true Pastors and Church-Officers who will lead them in the pathes of righteousness and truth where being associated together in Church-fellowship they will be more reformed then ever can be expected from anie companie in anie Parish-Congregation Pr. Well I now fully perceive what your intent is in a word you set your self to cast contempt upon our learned and reverend Clergie and to take from them their double honour both of reverence and maintenance and to bring them as low as the stipendarie Clergie of Germanie And I see no hope if your amendment I will therefore spend no more time with you yet I doubt not but we shall hold our Parsonages and Church-Livings as formerly we have done And if some will needs separate let not that hinder us of our Tithes and profits and then let them run after what new Teachers they please If they run from us we are discharged of that care which we should otherwise have of them Ph. Sir it may be before you and I meet again you may wheel about and change your minde as you and some others have done alreadie Remember what I say and so fare you well POSTSCRIPT REader thou maiest perceive by some passages in this Dialogue that the same was written some moneths if not years since which is true and the Author was resolved finding it difficult to get it pass the Presse to burie it in oblivion Hoping also that the pretended Clergie of the Land would have considered their waies and been wise But finding the follie of some of them through their Pride and Covetousness to grow into madness this Messenger is sent to stop their way farewell FINIS