upon the same grounds turn Christianity out of doors and own it to be built on no better foundation than the Ignorant Zeal and Confidence of its Asserters The Motive of St. Augustin for his embracing the Scriptures for the Word of God was the Authority of the Catholic Church he expresly declaring cont Ep. Fundam That he would not believe the Gospel except the Authority of the Catholic Church mov'd him to it From this same Authority it is he receives every Article of his Faith and since in his very Creed he is taught to believe the Holy Catholic Church he thinks he has Reason enough to do it And whosoever taxes him of Weakness or Confidence for so doing do's nothing less than call him a Fool for believing his Creed and this is only one Remove from telling him that if he 'll be Wise and have good Reasons for what he do's he must be no Christian Others may be so Wise as to believe only Eleven Articles of their Creed for his part he thinks it no reflection upon his Wisdom to believe Twelve he was taught so many when he was a Child and he do's not find he has outgrown any one of the number This Catholic Church which by the Creed every Christian is bound to believe is as was explicated in our last the Congregation of all true Believers under the Government and Direction of Pastors and Teachers in an uninterrupted Succession descending from the Apostles who by Gods appointment are set over the Flock to feed and rule it and whom the Flock is oblig'd to hear and obey and whose Faith they are bound to follow in each respective Age. 'T is thus deliver'd to him by St. Paul Heb. 13. 7 17. Remember them which have the Rule over you whose Faith follow Obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves And this way of the Faithful receiving their Instruction in the Christian Belief from the Catholic Church speaking to them by the Pastors and Teachers of the said Church which is the Method he observes as to every Article of his Faith has been always look'd on so sound and reasonable that in the time of the very Apostles and of the Primitive Church there was never any us'd but this 't was by this means the World first became Christian and by the very same Orthodox Christianity has been always preserv'd in its vigour and purity notwithstanding all the oppositions of Subtle Malicious or Self-interested Adversaries He that has but read the Scriptures cannot but have observ'd that the Method prescrib'd by Cbrist himself for the planting and propagating the Mysteries of his Holy Faith in the World was by ordaining and commissionating Apostles and Disciples to inform all Mankind of his Doctrine and Religion and the only Reasonable Means for any at that time to arrive to the certain Knowledge of the True Faith was to hear and submit to the Doctrine deliver'd by Those that were thus sent to Preach and Teach it This is the way by which the Christian Religion was first planted in the World and by this it has been ever since maintain'd The same Pastors and Overseers that were to teach the Gospel having another part of their Charge viz. To stand up in case of any Difficulties or Divisions arising in Point of Faith and by their Decision to put an end to the Controversie So to preserve Unity amongst the Faithful and defeat all the attempts of Turbulent and Presuming Spirits This Method of Pastors and Teachers directing and feeding and the Obligation of the Flock to Submit and Obey as necessary for continuing One Faith amongst Believers he has learnt to be Reasonable and of Divine Institution from the Practice of the Apostles For he finds Acts 15. that a Controversie being started at Antioch concerning the necessity of Circumcision 't was not left to every Particular Believer to think and decide the matter as they judge fit according to the best of their Knowledge and Parts neither did Paul and Barnabas with other Overseers of the Church of Antioch undertake to define any thing in this Particular No what was the Common Concern of all Christians was not to be determin'd by the Rulers and Pastors of any Particular Church but as belonging to All 't was to be remitted to the Consideration and Decision of Those who had All under their Charge that is the Pastors of the Vniversal or Catholic Church And thus did Paul and Barnabas for going up to Jerusalem the Cause was committed to the Hearing and Sentence of All the Apostles and Elders assembled at Jurusalem And as 't was determin'd by Them thus in Body 't was receiv'd by the Faithful with consolation not only at Antioch but in all other Places wheresoever the Gospel of Christ was preach'd by the Apostles who as they went through the Cities deliver'd them the Decrees for to keep that were ordain'd of the Apostles and Elders who were at Jerusalem Act. 16. 4. This was the Practice of the Apostles as it stands recorded in Holy Writ providentially there describ'd that their Successors the Rulers and Pastors of the Church in future Ages from this Authentic President might be provided of a Means whereby to maintain a Vnity in Faith amongst all True Believers however spread throughout the different and divided Nations of the Universe and know how to give a check to all growing Schisms and Heresies As therefore the Apostles put a stop to this Debate concerning the Circumcision by determining in Council in what manner the Faithful were to be taught were to believe and do in this Particular and by this Determination preserv'd the Vnity of Spirit in the Bond of Peace amongst the Faithful and prevented the many Divisions which otherwise might have torn the Flock asunder had they been every one lest to their own thoughts to judge of it as they pleas'd In like manner did the Pastors of the Church succeeding them in their Charge in the like Circumstances for when there appear'd any entring in among the Flock as was foretold by St. Paul Act. 20. 29. and like grievous Wolves not sparing it but speaking Perverse things to draw away Disciples after them The Overseers who were to feed the Church of God and commanded by the same Apostle to Watch and take heed to all the Flock ib. v. 28. assembled in Council and by their Determination declar'd to all under their Charge the Faith deliver'd and directed them which way to believe as to the Point in debate This was the Practice of the Primitive Church when as yet acknowledg'd Pure and Vncorrupted Thus did the Pastors then in the First General Council at Nice decide the Controversie rais'd by Arius thus they did in the Second at Constantinople in the Third at Ephesus in the Foutth at Chalcedon The Faithful always receiving with great Veneration the Determination of their Pastors thus Assembled and looking upon this Submission to their Doctrine as the most Reasonable Means whereby
THE Catholic Representer OR THE PAPIST Misrepresented AND REPRESENTED Second Part. Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty For his Houshold and Chappel 1687. THE CONTENTS CHAP. I. OF the Veneration shewn to Images of Christ the Virgin Mary c. Whether the Papists Pray to Images in Relation to a Passage of a Book Entituled A Catechism truly Representing the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome and its Vindication CHAP. II. Whether Papists Pray directly to the Cross as is positively Asserted by a Protestant with an Essay of a Heathen-Catechism after the Copy of the Truly-representing Protestant-Catechism in which this Calumny is publish'd CHAP. III. Whether the Doctrine of Transubstantiation be contrary to the Writings of the Primitive Fathers or agreeable to them The Papist believes his Senses in this Mystery as much as the Protetant being Notes upon a late Pamphlet Entituled The Papists Doctrine of Transubstantiation not agreeable to the Primitive Fathers CHAP. IV. The Form of the Catholic Church Establish'd by Christ No hopes of Salvation out of it The Practice of the Apostles and Primitive Church in this Point Good at this day The Protestants as uncharitably Damn the Papists as These are said to do the Protestants In reference to the Preface of Wholsom Advices from the B. V. c. CHAP. V. The Papist as to the Articles of his Belief follows the Method prescrib'd by Christ practis'd by the Apostles and the Primimitive Church The Method is of Divine Institution and more according to Reason than what Others follow The Word Worship is Equivocal and acknowledg'd so by St. Austin CHAP. VI. The Papist do's not Believe but upon most Convincing Reasons Mysteries of Faith above Reason not contrary to it The Papist is not depriv'd of the Word of God nor kept from the Knowledge of the Gospel He do's not Pray to the Cross more than Protetestants Pray to their Bibles or the Sacrament Three Protestant Queries Answer'd CHAP. VII The Vulgar among the Papists not depriv'd of the Word of God. They are better Instructed in the true Sense of it than those of other Perswasions who Teach themselves The Vnlearned and Vnstable wrest it to their own Destruction CHAP. VIII The Vulgar not permitted to read the Bible among the Papists for fear they should discover the Errors of their Religion an Absurd Calumny The Restraint is That there may not be as many different Words of God as there are Heads amongst them and may have something better Ground than their own Imagination to direct their Faith. A Word to a Lay-Friend CHAP. IX The Scriptures not always the Same to the same Person No Possibility of meeting in One Faith whilst Private Reason sets up for Interpreter of the Word of God. The Sham-Story of the Frogs and Crabs The Truth of the Anniversary Solemnity CHAP. X. Private Interpretation of Scriptures the Occasion of Divisions Some Protestant Divines call in the Assistance of Authority and Guides but all ends in the Private Spirit The Question started Where was the Protestant Religion as it is now Reform'd before Luther The Answers of some Protestant Divines CHAP. XI An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor For the Satisfaction of those who desire to know whether the Protestant Religion was generally Profess'd amongst the Christians of those Purer Times CHAP. XII Protestant Historians shew us Popery in the Primitive Church under Constantine but no Protestancy The Christians of that Age never Protested against the Popish Doctrines professedly Taught and Practis'd in those Times Therefore they were no Protestants An Enquiry into the Religion of the Ages succeeding Constantine CHAP. XIII The Professors of Popish Doctrines in the Primitive Times no Protestants but Papists Popish Tenets not only the Opinions of Private Doctors but the Doctrine of the Primitive Church The Four First General Councils no Protestants CHAP. XIV No Protestant Harangue in the First Four General Councils to fill the Fathers Heads with Fears and Jealousies No Canons made by the said Fathers to prevent the Growth of Popery at that Time professedly Taught and Practis'd is an Argument that the Fathers of those Councils were no Protestants CHAP. XV. The Appeal of Protestants to the Primitive Fathers shewn Injurious to Protestancy from the Concessâ—ons of Protestant Writers Luther the Apostle of the Reformatiâ—â— disclaims the Doctrine of the Fathers as not being for his purpose of Reforming CHAP. XVI A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy The Art of Interpreting do's Feats it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity THE PAPIST Misrepresented AND Represented SECOND PART CHAP. I. Of the Veneration shewn to Images of Christ the Virgin Mary c. Whether the Papists pray to Images in Relation to a Passage of a Book Entituled A Catechism truly Representing the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome and its Vindication THe Papist Misrepresented worships the Images of Christ and his Saints he kisses them uncovers his Head falls down before them offers Incense and Prays to them and uses all such Postures of Worship as he would do to the Person or Persons thereby represented if they were present And whosoever thinks otherwise amongst them is accursed Catech. truly repres the Doctr. of the Ch. of Rome p. 42. THe Papist Represented is taught That the Images of Christ of the Virgin Mary and other Saints ought to be kept and especially in Churches and due Honour and Veneration given them not for that any Divinity or Vertue is believed to be in them or that any thing is to be asked of them or any confidence to be placed in them as was anciently done by the Heathens who put their trust in Idols but because the Honour which is exhibited to the Images is referr'd to the Prototype or Thing represented by them So that by the Images which he kisses and before which he kneels or puts off his hat he adores Christ and reverences his Saints whom the said Images represent This is what He is taught and are the Words of the Council of Trent Sess 25. And tho some endeavour to cast an Infamy upon this Doctrine and Practice by letting loose the School-debates amongst the multitude and raising Mists and Confusion from the disagreeâ—ng Opinions of Divines Yet in honest Practice he 's conscious to himself of doing no more than what he sees done every Day by such who commendably follow the regular Motions of Humane Nature the Dictates of unbiass'd Reason First therefore as Men judge it nothing but Decent and Reasonable to set forth and adorn their Houses with the Pictures of such Persons as belong to their Family of their old Friends Benefactors Governours such as they esteem and whose Memory they desire to preserve and honour So he cannot but think it as agreeable to Reason that the House of God be
set forth with the Memories of such Eminent Persons who by a singular Favour of Heaven have been made chosen Vessels for the Propagation of the Religion there profess'd or have sealed the Truth of the Doctrine there delivered with the Effusion of their dearest Bloud This God himself did in a manner direct and approve when filling Bezaleel and Aholiâ—b Exod. 35. 31. with the Spirit of God in Wisdom in Vnderstanding and in Knowledge He Inspir'd them to make Two Cherubims of Gold Exod. 37. 7. on the side of the Mercy Seat openly declaring by this Fact the best Ornaments of his Seat and House here on Earth to be the Images Pictures and Representations of those Divine Spirits who are continually finging Praises to him before his Throne in Heaven This he was pleas'd to suggest to the Jews tho so prone to Idolatry and why should Christians be so Squeamish as not to follow when the Finger of God himself is giving Direction not in any Ceremony particularly relating to that People but in the Ornament of that Place which by his own Order was consecrated to his Presence and Service But 't is not all Christians even of Those Separated from the Communion of his Church that wholy disallow of this Practice there are several degrees amongst them as to this particular The Lutheran Protestants have their Altars and Church Walls set out with the Images and Pictures of the Apostles of the Virgin Mary of Christ upon the Cross c. Other Protestants who think the best temper of Religion to be in the Compounding Luther and Calvin together dare not go so far and therefore instead of Christ and his Apostles expose only two Saints of the old Law Moses and Aaron in their holy Places admitting generally too the Judaical Ornament of the Ark some Cberubims over their Church doors and Windows but nothing of a Cbristian Representation besides a Modern Sainted Queen This is in such Churches where the Clamours of the Croud overrule where nothing more of Cbrist must appear for fear of offending tender Consciences with the looks and smell of Popery whilst yet in other Places as in some Cathedrals and Vniversities where the People don't awe the Clergy where the Charge of Popery is neglected and the Walls and Windows not left as naked as senceless Fears would have them Cbrist and his Apostles stand with as much Veneration as Moses and Aaron elswhere and a Primitive Martyr is as becoming an Ornament as Queen Elizabeth And this seems so reasonable to some true Sons of this Church that they think nothing more suitable to their Retirement where they design to converse with Heaven than a Crucifix thâ— this Practice some think fit to wave for fear of raising Jealousies in their Family and becoming the talk of the Neighbourhood And this which he sees thus approv'd by many and practis'd by some Protestants he owns and declares for the allow'd and establish'd Practice of his Church So that to be a Papist in this particular is nothing more than to think the Pictures of Christ of his Apostles and Saints to be as ornamental in a Cbristian House as others of Relations Benefactors or Emperours c. And not to joyn hands with him who broke in pieces the Image of Christ upon the Cross while he left those of the Two Thieves stand untoucht 'T is to look upon the Cross or Crucifix as proper in a Church to shew that that Place and Congregation belongs to Christ as the Lion and the Vnicorn or Kings Arms to Intimate that they own the King as Supreme Governour 'T is to esteem the Apostles and Martyrs as fit to have place there for preaching the Gospel there deliver'd and ratifying it with their Bloud as Moses and Aaron for publishing the Commandments or as Queen Elizabeth for establishing the Religion by her Statutes As he is a Papist therefore he cannot have a good Opinion of those who love all sorts of Pictures whether of Relations Landskips Monsters Dogs or Devils but can brook nothing of Christ or his Mother who with Satisfaction enough can Admit of Mahomet Luther Calvin a suffering Russel or Sidney The Saviour of the Nation any Prophane or Immodest Picture whatsoever but presently turn Stomach at the sight of the Worlds Redeemer upon the Cross at any Passage of Christs Passion or sacred Mystery of our Religion represented in Colours No better Christians can he esteem those who cannot endure to be without their Signet to shew their Family who cannot see their Shops or Sign-Posts without the Arms of the Company they are Free of who must have their Scutcheon over their Hall doors to publish the Corporation they belong to and yet can allow of nothing to shew they are Christians who can see Crosses on their Houses and Walls both private and public on their Signs Barges their Ships and Colours as often as you will to speak them belonging to Citizens but a Cross to declare themselves Christians they repute as intollerable These he cannot much esteem for their Christianity as to this Point since he sees they are ashamed of nothing but what is to shew them to be Christians Secondly as to what concerns the Respect and Veneration He shews to Sacred Images of Christ his Mother or Apostles c. he does nothing but what Nature and Reason oblige him too and to explicate what this is he needs no more than declare that as a Loyal Wife who has a tender Love and sincere Respect for her Husband cannot chuse from the pressing Impulse of innocent Nature but have a Love and Respect for his Picture and expresses that Love by kissing it and hanging it at her Breast in the same manner He having a hearty Love and true Honour in his Soul for his Blessed Redeemer Apostles and Martyrs of Christ cannot hinder the irresistable force of Nature from having a Respect and Honour for their Pictures and this same Respect he expresses by kissing them placing them in his Oratory the Church c. Again as Christians Honour and Respect the Bible above all other Books and tho it be made of nothing but Paper Ink Leather Pastboard like all other Volumes yet because the Stroks of that Ink are so order'd and joyn'd in that Paper that they Signifie and Represent to him the Doctrine and Passion of Christ c. for this Reason they cannot chuse but Love and Respect and Honour this Book and if in reading and perusing it any more devout than the rest express these Sentiments of their Souls by kissing it never taking it into their Hands but with an awful Reverence with their Heads uncovered and on their bended knees they do nothing but to the Honour and Glory of God and what may without Superstition or Suspicion of giving Idolatrous Worship to the Paper or Ink of that Book be paid to that Sacred Volume and what has been the Practice of many holy Christians and Saints Upon the same Account and for the
Ammonites pray to Ashtoroth or Milcom He does not deny but in one of the Hymns us'd in his Church are found these words Hail O Cross our only Hope In this time of the Passion encrease Righteousness in the Just and blot out the Sins of the Guilty And these same words as likewise the whole Hymn are found in St. Ambrose's Works tho compos'd by that Learned Bishop Vincentius Fortunatus who liv'd in the fifth Age to be sung on Passion Sunday upon which day it is still us'd by his Church as part of that days Solemnity And if for these words of this Prelate whose Name is so often celebrated by Pious and Learned Men and his whole Church must be blackned with the Infamy of Idolatry and praying directly to the Cross then stand clear Paul have a care Chrysostome beware O Creed and you Common-prayer-Book look to your felf for if there be but any that will weigh you in this Scale if you have but a Grave Catechist that according to this Rule will Faithfully represent you you 'll be infallibly set out for nothing better then Professors of Folly and Nonsence Bundles of Absurdities and Prophaneness sitter for the diversion of Drolling Atheists than the Direction of any Christian Congregation 'T is but exposing some sentences and expressions found in them in the rigid and literal sence of the words to the Multitude and they 'll presently lose all their Authority of being Divine and become as Ridiculous as Popery which by these true-representing Arts has been made so infamous by its Adversaries As now if after the Method of this Faithful Catechism the Question should be thus ask'd concerning St. Paul Quest What regard had St. Paul for the material Cross A. He reverenc'd it above all things in Heaven and Earth expresly owning it for the only Subject of his Glory God forbid says he Gal. 6. 14. that I should glory save in the Cross of our Lord Jefus Christ Again He look'd upon the Wood of the Cross as that which had purchas'd Mans Reconciliation to God as he directly confesses Ephes 2. 16. where he says Man was Reconcil'd unto God in one body by the Cross Would not the urging these expressions of St. Paul in the rigid sence of the Words as they signifie the material Wood of the Cross make him change his Colour in the Eyes of the Multitude and render him more like an Infidel than an Apostle of Jesus Christ for thus placing his Glory and Mans Reconciliation in a piece of Wood And if these same measures are applied to St. Chrysostom and other Fathers who flourish'd in the time of the Church's Purity will not they all appear disfigur'd with the horror of Superstition and Idolatry and carry the most infamous Marks of Popery in the very face of them St. Chrisostom says expresly that the Cross has broken the Gates of Hell has open'd the Passage into Heaven has made Paradise again accessible and confounded the power of Satan and a little before that every thing that contributes to our Salvation receives its perfection from the Cross St. Ephrem in almost the same words thus celebrates the Cross It has triumph'd says he over death 't is the Hope of true Believers the Light of the World the Key of Paradice the Overthrow of Heresies the Help of Religious Men the Establishment of Faith a great and secure Protection and the perpetual Glory of good Christians for ever Now let but these words of these Eminent and Primitive Christians be thrown amongst the Crowds with an innuendo as if spoken meerly of the material Cross and that they attributed so many excellencies to a piece of Wood what scandals would immediately follow How many contempts and scornful reproches would these Great Fathers receive from the presuming Multitude And how many compassionate Moans would the more Pitying Sex sigh out upon the darkness of that Age This would certainly have follow'd had it been the Fate of these Primitive Christians to have faln into True-representing Protestant hands or were there any faithful Catechism to have made Questions and Answers upon their Faith and Practice But certainly 't is not only the part of a Faithful Catechism that pretends to give a true account of mens Belief and Practice to lay down some words some expressions taken out of their Hymns their Epistles their Books and then leave them to the discretion of every undiscerning or prejudic'd Reader to interpret as they please and more especially it ought not to have pointed out to a false and mistaken sence which however literal is yet contrary to the meaning of those whose Doctrine it pretends to deliver No this is not doing faithfully 't is not true-representing If it would have made good its Title in the Frontispiece it should besides relating the bare words have given a faithful account of the sence in which Catholicks understand those words And therefore as to do right to St. Paul St. Chrysostom St. Ephrem c. besides giving a bare Narrative of their expressions it ought to be explicated to the people that in all those high Encomiums of infinit and divine Perfections and Effects attributed to the Cross they do not understand the meer Material Cross or piece of Wood but the Belief in the Mystery of the Cross the Passion of the Son of God or Christ Crucified which are all signified and represented by the Cross So to represent truly the Practice of Catholicks 't is not sufficient to set down the bare words of the Hymn but likewise their meaning ought to have been propos'd that with St. Paul St. Chrysostom St. Ephrem c. they do not understand barely the Material Cross but Christ crucified and that in that Holy time of the Passion in which that Hymn is sung their whole Devotion and Prayers are directed to Him who being born for us Men and our Salvation made peace through the Blood of his Cross So that the meaning of Catholicks in saying that Hymn is Hail O Christ our only Hope In this time of the Passion increase Righteousness in the Just c. This had been true-representing indeed but to pretend to faithful representing and then to set down only Words without their due Sence and Meaning is to represent by halves it has more of deceiving in it then representing having little of truth in it besides in Brags and Pretences This certainly is so insincere a Method that if allow'd there needs no more to blast the Credit and Reputation even os Truth it self and 't is very observable that there is scarce an Argument taken up by Protestants or any Means us'd by them for the defeating of Popery or making it Ridiculous to the Multitude but the same if follow'd on will infallibly ruin all Religion and turn Christianity out of the World Protestancy it self is not proof against its own weapons but that which brought it into the World will be certainly its overthrow with as many as have but
those expressions of the Fathers are only occasional or accidental but where they treat professedly of this Subject they speak plainly in our behalf and to follow the Rule of one of the Lights of your Church as you stile him in this Pamphlet I would fain know whether a mans judgment must be taken from occasional and incidental passages or from design'd and set discourses which is as much as to ask whether the lively representation of a man by Picture may best be taken when in haste of other business he passes by us giving only a glance of his Countenance or when he purposely and designedly sits in order to that end that his Countenance may be truly represented There 's no Book treats so fully and demonstratively of any Subject in one place but occasionally speaking of the same elsewhere from some obscure or dubious expression furnishes matter for an Objection against the Doctrine before designedly establish'd This is true even of the Bible it self which teaching Christ to be True Man do's yet by the occasional expression of St. Paul saying that he appear'd in Habit as a Man and in the Likeness of a Man give occasion to some to object that he was no Real and Substantial Man which strikes at the very Fundamental Truth deliver'd in that Sacred Volume and if this be true even of the Word of God it self what wonder to find it in the Works of the Fathers much more ample and voluminous Misrepresent This is another shift with a help of a Logical distinction however let this pass too But as long as you don't believe your sences but deny the certainty of those Powers which God has given us to lead us to the Belief of all the Mysteries of Christian Religion I am sure you contradict the Fathers and are in a fair way of undermining the very foundation of Christianity Represent This is the Cock-Argument of the other Light of your Church and it so far resembles the Light that like it it makes a glaring shew but go to grasp it and you find nothing in your Hand Why Misrepresenter even in this Mystery I believe more of my Sences than you do my Eyes tell me there is the colour of Bread and I assent to them my Tongue that it has the tast of Bread I agree to it my smelling that it has the smell of Bread I yield to it my Fingers that it feels like Bread I accept of the Information my Ears tell me from the Words spoken by Christ himself That it is the Body of Christ I believe these too Is not here Misrepresenter one Sence more than you believe And yet you would fain perswade the World I do not believe my Sences The Sence by which Faith comes is that of Hearing S. Paul possitively affirming that Faith comes by Hearing and how do I overthrow the certainty of Christian Religion by hearkning to that Sence by which all Faith is to be conveyed into my Soul Misrepresent You don't believe your Eyes which assure you of the Substance of the Bread being there even after Consecration Represent If your Eyes see the Substance of things they are most extraordinary ones and better than mine For my part mine never saw farther than the Colour or Figure c. of things which are only accidents and the entire Object of that Sence 'T is Reason or Judgment acquaints me with the Substance and this Judgment 't is true I frame generally from the Information of my Sences excepting when they are indisposed or some Divine Revelation intervenes For in this case I choose rather to judge from This than from my Sences as Abraham did who being told by his Sences That those three that appeared to him Gen 18. were Men and by a Revelation from God that they were Angels judged of them and their Nature according to the Revelation and not according to his Sences Misrepresent You are all upon Quirks and Philosophy to day and I am tired with your Distiactions and so farewel till the Holy-days are over Represent Fare you well but do you hear don't forget to send your People to the Chappels to Morrow Morning to see the Nursing and Rocking the Child in the Cradle This is one of your April-Errands for Christmas Morning and you don't think much of making the Papists ridiculous though it be at the expence of making your own people Fools Publish'd with Allowance London Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the Kings most Excellent Majesty for His Houshold and Chappel 1686. THE PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented SECOND PART CHAP. IIII. The Form of the Catholic Church establish'd by Christ No hopes of Salvation out of it The Practice of the Apostles and Primitive Church in this point Good at this day The Protestants as uncharitably damn the Papists as These are said to do the Protestants In reference to the Preface of Wholsome advises from the B. V. c. THe Papists Misrepresented is Member of a Church which excludes all others from the hopes of Salvation besides those who are within the Pale of her own Communion And no doubt his Church is True if uncharitableness be but a Mark of the True one if it be but safest to be on the uncharitable side he 's beyond all question in the right But certainly this is to leave the Rule of Christ and his Apostles and of the Primitive Church who taught none of this damning Doctrine but ever recommended Charity as the necessary foundation of a Christian life THe Papist Represented is taught that Christ our Saviour before his Ascension into Heaven establish'd a Church consisting of all True Believers amongst which he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the Body of Christ till we all come in the Vnity of Faith. Ephes 4. 11 12 13. These Apostles Evangelists Pastons and Teachers he constituted over the Faithful to over-see rule and direct them to whom he gave them in charge by the mouth of St. Paul Act. 20. 28. Take heed therefore unto your selves and to all the Flock over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you Over-seers to feed the Church of God which he hath pnrchas'd with his own blood with a strict Command to the Flock or Congregation of the Faithful to be obedient to these Pastors thus put over them by the Ordinance of God Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves for They watch for your Souls as they that must give account And vers 7. Remember them which have the rule over you who have spoken unto you the word of God whose Faith follow This command of submitting to Pastors was given to the Flock as he is taught by St. Paul for the preventing Divisions and Schisms that so notwithstanding their differing private Inclinations Capacities Sence and Judgment by this Obedience and Submission to those that
were put over them for their rule and direction they might be perfectly join'd together in the same mind and same judgment 1 Cor. 1. 10. That they might be preserv'd in the Unity of Peace and be no more Children rossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of Doctrine Ephes 4. 14. And that the People or Flock might have no scruple or solicitude upon them for fear of being led into Error by these Apostles and Pastors but might securely and without anxiety of Spirit rest under their Guidance and Direction Christ did most solemnly promise the said Overseers the Apostles and Pastors the assistance of his Holy Spirit I am with you always even unto the end of the world Mat. 28. 2c The Comforter the Holy Ghost shall teach you all things Jo. 14. 26. By which effectual Promise they were constituted Guides were taught all Truth and all those secur'd from Error who committed themselves to their Instruction The Catholic Church being thus constituted and ordian'd by Christ himself and provided with Apostles and Pastors divinely assisted for the instructing the Flock in the Mysteries of the Christian Faith with an obligation on all that heard them to believe upon pain of damnation He that believeth not shall be damn'd Mat. 16. 16. it is certain that all such as did separate themselves from the Communion of the Apostles either by contradicting or disbelieving their Doctrine or being refractory to their Government did in this most heinously offend the Divine Majesty and exclude themselves from the hopes of Salvation the former by rejecting the true Faith without which 't is impossible to please Him Heb. 11. 6. the latter by disobedience resisting the Ordinance of God They that resist shall receive to themselves damnation Rom. 13. 1. 2. This was the Face and Constitution of the Church of Christ in the time of the Apostles Salvation being promis'd to those that believ'd He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and Damnation threatned to disbelievers He that believeth not shall be damned Mar. 16. 16. So that 't was no Uncharitable but a most Evangelical Assertion in the Evangelist to say The Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved Act. 2. 47. And the declaring that there was no Salvation out of their Church was nothing but a necessary Doctrine The Church being thus by Christ himself founded the Pillar and Ground of Truth 2 Tim. 3. 15. consisting of Pastors and Teachers to instruct and of the Flock under an indispensable obligation of receiving and Submitting to their Instruction it was so to continue to the end of the World Christ's Spirit being to abide with her for ever Jo. 14. 16. The Promise of his assistance being not limited to the Persons of the Apostles but annex'd to their Function As therefore St. Paul when he left Ephesus Act. 20. 28. appointed others to oversee and rule the Flock with their Commission from the holy Ghost So he and the other Apostles when they departed this Life had others to succeed them for the Direction and Government of the Faithful And as those who cut themselves off from the Communion of the Apostles incurr'd the guilt of Damnation by unavoidably in so doing erring in Faith or Disobedience so likewise all those who separated from the Communion of their Successors it being at all times most certainly true that there was no true Faith nor true Charity in any that separated themselves from the Doctrine and Government of the Church of Christ over which the Apostles were Overseers and Rulers for their time and their Successors to be so after them to the end of the World. This as to the Apostles is evident from the severe censure of Deceivers pronounc'd against all those who endeavour'd to make Divisions in their time Ephes 4. 14. where they are said to work by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive And 2 Tim. 2. 18. Such as dissented from the Apostles are condemn'd for erring concerning the Truth and overthrowing the Faith. And Tit. 3. 11. They are said to be subverted and in sin and to be condemn'd of themselves And as to their Successors the Practice of the Primitive Church in the time of her confess'd Purity is a most convincing Argument there being none that in the first three or four Centuries ever separated from them either in point of Doctrine or making Schisms tho under the most colourable pretext of Reforming Errors or rejecting Innovation but were declar'd Innovators as men to be avoided as cut off from the Mystical Body of Christ by the Pastors and Overseers then in being The Rule of St. John 1 Joh. 4. 6. being always the standard-Measure of the Church He that knows God heareth us he that is not of God heareth not us hereby know we the Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error Here then 't is evident that the Catholic Church in the time of the Apostles as also of their Successors was the Depository of the true Faith and that to dissent from her in Faith was to fall into Error to divide from God He that hears you hears me and he that despises you despises me Luke 10. 16. If he neglect to hear the Church let him be unto thee as an Heathen and a Publican Matth. 18. 17. and consequently no Promises of Christ nor Salvation to be expected by such who were not of her Communion This same One holy Catholic Church he believes to have continued in all Ages it being at all times true what has been always said by the Faithful in the Creed I believe the holy Ca-Cholic Church and that 't is to remain to the end of the World assisted by the Spirit of God and preserv'd from teaching errors according to the Promise of Christ Matth. 28. 20. Joh. 14. 16. So that as then so now at this time there is a Church succeeding that of the Apostles which teaches all Truth and from which none can separate without erring in Faith or incurring the guilt of Schism Sins altogether inconsistent with Salvation And because after most serious Considerations and the weighing of all Reasons he believes this Church to be that in whose Communion he is he do's not question but what is truly affirm'd of the Church of the Apostles and succeeding Ages and those that fell from it is most true of the same Church now in being of which he 's a Member and of all those who separate from it upon what pretext soever And however this may be painted out for Vncharitablenss yet 't is certainly the very Doctrine deliver'd by the Apostles and the Practice of the Primitive Church And when the worst has been made of it yet still he do's not come short of Dr. Tillotsons Charity for notwithstanding all this yet so much Charity he has and he desires always to have it as to hope that a great many of other separate Perswasions who live piously and have been
Ignorance remain in that Communion which is the utmost it seems of what they 'll allow the Papists Do you see Misrepresenter by this how injuriously busie you have been in slandering the Papists How many thousand Mouths and Pens have you influenc'd to render the Papists black and odious for their uncharitablenss for their excluding all others from Salvation besides themselves when upon examination of the matter the Doctrine of Papists and Protestants in this affair is the same in reference to each other and the Protestants are as Vnchristian Damners of the Papists as they are made to be of the Protestants Misrepresent Come you abuse the Protestants they are too tender-hearted have more Charity then to say you are damn'd I never heard so foul a word fall from any of them And if you have found any thing like it in this Preface you are to consider the Author of it professes himself a Layman and you are not to take measure of their Religion from him he may be overseen through Zeal or Passion he 's dabling out of his element and may he mistaken Represent 'T is true he says he 's a Layman but he speaks so like a Clergy-man so almost in the very words and phrase of a Doctor of his Church mention'd at large in my last Reply that I cannot but take it for Church-sence dropping through a Lay-pen They both agree that the only hope of Salvation for the Papists is invincible Ignorance They both meet first in declaring against the Papists for their Vncharitableness and then unluckily jump in asserting the very Principle they condemn Then if you take the other Doctor along with you quoted in the same Reply who declares That all those who are Members of the Church of Rome must by the terms of Communion with that Church be guilty either of Hypocrisie or Idolatry either of which are sins inconsistent with Salvation You 'll find it most evident that this Preface speaks the sence of the Protestant Church and that the throwing it upon a Layman is but a vain Apology However to give the Protestants their due this I 'll say for them that amongst the kind They are the most Gentile and Courtly Damners that can possibly be met with For as you observe they are seldom or never heard to say The Papists must be damn'd no this Grim-divinity would alarm the dull Congregation and make 'em jealous of their Leaders that they condemn the Papiâ—ts for uncharitable and are as bad themselves They declare their sentiments therefore in softer language and instead of saying The Papists must be damn'd they only say there 's no reasonable hope of their Salvation We hope that such of them as by invincible Ignorance are detain'd in that Communion upon a general repentance will find mercy with God. They are Idolaters or Hypocrites Superstitious Blood-suckers c. and must be necessarily guilty of such sins as are inconsistent with Salvation but they are Members still of the true Church the corrupt and God's merciful In this kind of modest Cant and with the shew of Charity do they cast out the Papists amongst the Reprobate But all this if 't were put in plain English is just the same as to say They are damn'd and 't is only not to betray them selves to the people they do not speak out Tell me Misrepresenter when a Man has done his best to prove me an Idolater a Hypocrit a Corrupter of the Laws of God that I incur the most horrid of crimes without remorse or Conscience according to the Principles of my Religion Do's not he smooth me up with a very unseasonable Complement to tell me after all this dreadful Indictment that he has Charity enough to hope I shall be sav'd He first in good earnest makes a Devil of me and with the same breath seems willing to complement me into a Saint But however I don't think the Papists are much beholden to these for their so civil hopes for those that pretend to have Charity enough to hope thus of the Papists after they have made 'em Idolaters and Hypocrites I don't question may have the like charitable Hopes for the Socinian the Turk the Jew and the Atheists And if more Doctors then One don't in this lay a fair ground for the taking in the Devils too within the extent of their Charity I am mistaken But these their pretended hopes I can look on no better then bare Complements 't is plain their allowance of Salvation to Papists is upon no other score than the supposal of invincible Ignorance and this makes their damning Doctrine to be of as Iarge an extent nay to be the very same they decry in the Papists And 't is a Mystery to me how they impose upon the People making that look black and odious in the Papists which They practice themselves without the least breach of Christian Charity Misrepresent ' This is a Paradox then to you it seems come 't is a time of Christian liberty and I 'll be free with you They know the People they have to deal with the word Pope is an Enchantment and Papist an Infatuation to them Let them hear these but nam'd and they are so wholly possess'd their discerning Faculties so stupified that they 'll pass you over fifty contradictions without once stumbling No fear of their enquiring How can this be And pray now where 's your difficulty of perswading these people any thing Consider upon this and then call me Mis-representer again if you think I deserve it Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's most Excellent Majesty for His Houshold and Chappel 1686. THE PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented SECOND PART CHAP. V. The Papist as to the Articles of his Belief follows the Method prescrib'd by Christ practis'd by the Apostles and the Primitive Church The Method is of Divine Institution and more according to Reason than what Others follow The Word Worship is Equivocal and acknowledg'd so by St. Austin THe Papist as Misrepresented has no good Reasons to defend his way of Worship and Religion and therefore the most Soverain means he has to work upon weak minds is plentifully to thunder out against them threatnings of Hell and Damnation and Poor Man What should he do He finds himself at a loss to convince their Vnderstanding and therefore he must not be wanting to work upon their Passions But since the strength of his Cause lies in nothing but pouring out Curses and pronouncing others to be in a Damnable condition it proves nothing but his own Confidence His Zeal may be great but being not grounded on good Reasons it only makes him the more Ridiculous and is uncapable of shaking any ones constancy because it arises without knowledge and judgment The Sum of the ninth page of the Preface THe Papist as Represented has so good Reasons for every Point of his Faith and Religion that whosoever casts them by as Weak and Ridiculous must
to secure themselves from falling into Error And this same Method thus happily begun by the Apostles and continu'd on by the Practice of the Primitive Church it is which he observes in every Article of his Faith there being no one Point amongst all those controverted amongst Christians which he assents to but as derermin'd by the Pastors of the Catholic Church assembled who have the care of the Flock and whom by the command of Christ and his Apostles he is bound to submit to and obey Misrepresent This is the very thing I charge you with for pray now what do you make of all this Is not this pinning your Faith upon other mens sleeves Is not this shutting your own Eyes and running blindfold after other mens Phancies Represent Speak sincerely Misrepresenter and don 't dissemble Don't I do in this the very thing prescrib'd by Christ himself commanded and practis'd by the Apostles and faithful then living and follow'd by the Church of the purest Ages And if this be running blindfold with you and pinning of my Faith upon other mens sleeves what do you in the mean time make of the Bible which gives these Directions Are not you a great Dissembler in pretending a veneration to that Divine Law while you contemn and ridicule the Doctrine it delivers Misrepresent God has given you Reason to examine and weigh things and to guide your self and this wilful slavery is not well pleasing to Him by which you let other mens Imaginations tyrannize it over your own Reason and Judgment Represent In observing the Rule I have laid down to you as to my Belief I make use of the best of my Reason and follow it to the utmost of my endeavours For since God has been pleas'd to appoint and ordain Pastors and Overseers to feed and take care of the Flock my Reason tells me 't is more prudent and safe for me to Obey and submit my self to them Heb. 13. 17. and to follow their Faith v. 7. upon the warrant of God's Command than forsaking them to follow my own Private judgment without any other authority than of my own Confidence and Presumption Tell me Misrepresenter do's not thy Reason tell thee 't is more reasonable to think that three four or six hundred Able and Learned Pastors met together out of the several Parts of Christendom in a concern properly belonging to their Place and Charge can Reason consider weigh and judge of it better than One of the Flock If so why do you slander me for shutting my Eyes and hoodwinking my Reason whenas I in submitting to the Consideration and Judgment of so many do govern my self more according to Reason than you who contemning so great a Number chose rather to follow one who being your own self are likely to incur the censure commonly given to those who will be both Masters and Scholars to themselves Those therefore that defame the Papists for having no good Reasons for their Religion and Worship there 's some reason to think begin to talk of Reason before they are throughly acquainted with it or know well what it is Misrepresent Come stop here a little if you can Have you seen the Answer to your First Sheet He accuses you of transcribing in substance what was writ upon the same Subject in the First Part. Represent He 's Angry so no great fear of him His first attempt is to undervalue his Adversary but this wont do with Understanding Men. For tho it were as he says They know what is True must of necessity be always the same and cannot be repeated too often And as for Repetitions tho it were in the Afternoon of what was said the very same Day in the Morning you know as the World goes is no great Reflection And for the First Part 't is now near two years since 't was publish'd Misrepresent You discredit and reject the Divines and School-men Represent No I only blame those who endeavour to spoil their Neighbour through Philosophy and vain deceit Coloss 2. 8. disturbing the Faithful with Speculative Notions allowable enough within School-walls but easily made use of by ill men amongst Crowds to the confusion of all Religion I 'll let them wrangle about Worship Absolute and Relative as they do about seeing but tell me must I shut my eyes or say I don't see because they can't agree how and in what manner I see Misrepresent You trim up Similitudes and Resemblances but don 't at all state the case or shew what we are to trust to Represent I know of little more there is in the whole case besides the Equivocation about the Word Worship You find this Expression of Worshipping Images in some of our Books and in the Catechism ad Parochos 't is said they are set up ut colantur to be worship'd And here you presently catch at this and run away with it in Triumph boasting to your unthinking Auditory that you have prov'd the Papists Idolaters out of their own Books and Councils because they profess a Worship due to Images But do you hear don't be too hasty in passing Sentence and drawing Consequences 't is easie out-running all the bounds of Charity if you are too much upon the spur in this affair You and yours Misrepresenter ought to consider that this one and the same Word Worship signifies very different Conceptions and almost as many sorts of Respect Honour and Veneration as there are different degrees of Excellency in the World. There 's an Honour due to Parents and this is properly call'd in Latin Colere Parentes to worship or honour our Parents There 's an Honour due to Magistrates which may be term'd a Worship as by their Title they are stil'd Worshipful There 's an Honour due to Kings which in Scripture is express'd by Adoring or Worshiping as in 1 Chron. 29. 20. where 't is said All the Congregation bowed down their heads and Worshiped the Lord and the King. There 's an Honour due to the Martyrs or Saints departed which is likewise call'd a Worship and therefore St. Augustine says expresly Contr. Faust l. 20. c. 2. We Worship the Martyrs with that Worship of Love and Society with which even in this life Holy Men of God are Worshiped But we Worship them the Martyrs so much the more devoutly because more securely There 's again a certain Reverence and suitable Respect due to some Things which have an eminent Relation to God and his Service as the Answerer here confesses p. 5. such are the Bible the Images of Christ c. and this certain Reverence and Respect is term'd likewise Worship so 't is properly said Colere Imaginem Christi Colere Sancta Evangelia There 's an Honour in sine due to God which is call'd still by some Word Worship in Greek Latria as St. Augustine ib. has it which is a certain service properly due to the Divinity with which we neither Worship the Martyrs nor teach them to be worshiped but God alone Do you
if the reading the Scriptures is such a defeat to Popery as you give out Is it likely those who have been bred up to the reading the Bible and have made it their Study and Companion should ever embrace that Communion And yet whosoever shall examin will find the greater part of that Church here in this Nation to have had their education and grown up with the Bible in hand and That too not translated for the advantage of Popish Principles Misrepresent Let 's have then your Reason why the Holy Scriptures are not generally allow'd to the Vulgar of your Church without exception Represent 'T is that there may not be as many different Bibles amongst them as there are Heads and that they may have something better than an Imagination to build their Salvation on Misrepresent This is all Paradox Why have the Protestants here in England as many different Bibles as Heads They all read the Bible and yet 't is but one and the same in all their hands Represent As to what 's in their Hands you are in the right But see what 's in their Heads A little consideration will convince you that what you call a Paradox is nothing less than a Plain Truth And that in reality there are as many Words of God amongst them as Heads I gave you a hint in our last discourse That tho' the Book of the Scriptures do's certainly contain the Word of God yet to every Christian that reads it 't is the sense and meaning and not the Letter is more properly the Word of God for their instruction and direction Now do you but reflect in how many different senses the Letter of the Bible is understood and so many different Bibles will you find multiplyed by your followers And tell me upon examination whether this be much fewer than Heads Misrepresent This is still mysterious Represent Every thing is so to you which is not for your purpose Tell me How do your people benefit by the Scriptures is it by laying the Bible upon their Heads and so understanding it Or is it by the Sense and meaning in which they understand it If it be by the sense and meaning then just that is the Bible to every one as the sense is in which they conceive it And if you can't apprehend this without longer explications follow my directions and you shall find it as evident as demonstration Provide your self well of Pen Ink and Paper and having done this invite the first of your Congregation you meet and if he be at leisure desire him to give you an account of the sense in which he understands the Scripture Write you it down all at length as he delivers it And having finish'd with him go to another and do the like Then to a third so to a fourth and fifth c. Still laying by every one's volume by it self And when you have gone as far as you think enough for your satisfaction compare your Writings together see how they agree and remember that as different as you find them in the Doctrine of Christ in the Mysteries of Faith in the commands of the Apostles c. So many different Words of God have you And as different as they are in your Papers just so are they in the Heads of those who directed your Pen Your Papers being nothing but a Transcript or Copy of such conceptions as are laid up in their Heads for the express Doctrine of Christ and unquestionable Word of God. Misrepresent This is a pretty Chimoera I confess 'T is much cheaper taking your explication than making the experiment Represent Well but what do you say to it If you will not take the trouble imagine it within your self and suppose it done by the Pens of ten thousand Angels Don't you think there wou'd be a pretty variety of Bibles There wou'd be This Man's Bible and That man's Bible Such an one's Bible and Such an one's Bible infinite numbers of Bibles Misrepresent You make a droll of these sacred matters Why these wou'd not be Bibles nor different Words of God but so many different Conceptions of the same Word of God. Represent 'T is you make the Droll and I expose it to your shame You think then these Transcripts would not be Bibles nor so many words of God and you are in the right for they wou'd be only so many Imaginations of theirs that frame them But why do you delude the poor people in this manner putting the Bible into their hands and perswading them they are guided by the Scriptures and the Word of God whenas when you come to see what it is they steer by you dare not own it for the Word of God but their own imaginations it being not the Book as it is in their Hands they are directed by but as it is in their Heads And to convince you agen by a farther experiment how far it is as it lies there from being the Word of God take but those suppos'd Copies we spoke of just now and carry them to any Licenser of your own to examine in order to be Printed and Publish'd for the Word of God and Rule of Faith and see whether you can find any will set them forward with an Imprimatar And if it be absurd even to suppose you could What an Unchristian Imposture is it to let so many poor Souls go on with a secure confidence of following the Word of God and building their Salvation on it when what they really follow and build on is so far from being what they imagine that if expos'd to public 't would pass for no better than some Religious Imaginations or Pious Dreams 'T is then for the avoiding these Inconveniencies the Vulgar amongst us are not generally allow'd the Bible Our Church takes care to put the same Word of God into their Heads and Hearts by instructing them all in its Doctrin as it has been deliver'd down and practis'd in the Catholic Church in all Ages since the Apostles Your Church puts the same Bible into the Hands of your Vulgar but for their Heads and Hearts it leaves them to take their venture and here lies the difference between us Misrepresent Stop a little Have you receiv'd your Answer from your Lay-Friend He pinches closely Represent I fear he 's too much your Friend to be much Mine or his own I cannot but suspect him since he pretends so great zeal for Truth and brings so much Gall and Passion along with him to conduct him to it His open Profession p. 10 where he says I must tell my Mind freely for I have vow'd to follow Truth and Charity wherever thâ—y lead me And then his Resolate consession in the very next Page where he thus declares Thus much I le confess That I desire to live no longer than I can if not speak yet love and admire the Church of England 's sense is a plain argument to me he is one of your acquaintance and that 't is not to be
others Invisibly profess'd others travel a great way to find it and return back with a May be and it may be 't was under the Rubbish And what if one should here enforce the Argument in The Plain Mans Reply He 's upon Enquiry Who is the Infallible Judge asserted by Catholics and because he don't find Authors agree upon the Point Where he shall find him p. 18. 25. he there concludes them all to be but Triflers and that there 's no such Judge in the World. Would not this conclude as forcibly that there was no Protestant Church in the World before Luther Since being now upon the Search to what Church or Communion one was to have applyed himself in K. Henry the Seventh's time to have been instructed in the True Faith and Doctrine of Christ they generally agree there was such a Church in the World but some send us to Armenia for it some to Greece some to the Hussites some to an Invisible Corner some to a Cloud some to look under the Rubbish What can a Man call this but in the Plain Man's phrase Trifling And yet Plain as he is he stands fair for this same Title of Honour he has so bountifully bestow'd upon others For as others so He tells us p. 10. that True Religion shall never be so far driven out of the World but that it shall always have somewhere or other some that believe and profess it in all things necessary to Salvation I enquire Where these were twenty years before the Pretended Reformation He assures me They were certainly in the World some where or other Great satisfaction to an Enquirer Is not this just as if I were travelling to a certain Town as as 't is in the Plain Mans Reply p. 19. and do ask the next Man I meet which is the right way He tells me 't is a very Cross-Road to find and I may easily miss it But saith he tho' I cannot direct you my self yet there is a Man lives in that Village who knows every step so exactly that if you take him for your Guide you cannot possibly be mistaken Pray say I at what House do's this Honest Man live How may I come to the speech of him Nay saith he I know nothing of all that but you must find him as you can Now suppose every Man in the Village gives me the same wise Answer What an admirable Direction would this prove Is this any thing but Trifling This is just our Case I am enquiring to find out the True Protestant Church before Luther All assure me 't was certainly in the World but when I come to ask Where the Plain Man's Reply is Some where or other Misrepr Tho' they don't agree where 't was just before Luther Yet all agree 't was generally profess'd by the Primitive Christians Represent Then I see we must despair of finding it the thousand Years before Luther And what was the Primitive Church we 'l enquire in our next Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XI An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor For the satisfaction of those who desire to know whether the Protestant Religion was generally Professed amongst the Christians of those Purer times Represent WE are now to enquire into the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church and see whether that was Protestant or Catholic But we must first know how many Years or Ages you 'l allow us to look into that is how long you say the True Pretestant Religion as now establish'd was profess'd and practis'd Anciently and Generally among Christians after the Apostles days before corruption crept in upon it Setle this Point and then we 'll proceed Misrepresent If you are in good earnest He give you some account of this The Author of the Discourse Concerning a Judge of Controversie lately publish'd says p. 15. For Authority We appeal to the best Authority of the Christian Church the Three First Ages after the Apostles So that I presume by him the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally profess'd and practis'd to the year of Christ 400. Calvin Reynolds and Fulk own the Church of Rome to have continu'd in the Doctrine of the Apostles that is Protestant in the time of Cyprian Jerom Austin the last of whom liv'd till the year 430. Agen in the Discourse entitled Papists not Mis-represented by Protestants 'tis said p. 56. The Tradition of the Church remain'd Clear and Strong till after the First Four General Councils the last of which being that of Chalcedon establish'd in England by Act of Parliament An. 1 Eliz. was held in the Year 450. So that I may allow you to search into the Primitive Church for the first four hundred and fifty years for so long I question not the Protestant Religion was Generally profess'd and practis'd and that Religion as then practis'd is the same as now establish'd by Law here in England and 't is a shame You and Yours shou'd so declaim against it Represent Pardon me here for I profess my self to have so great a veneration for the Primitive Church that I resolve to believe as that believ'd and if it appears that That Church was the Protestant Church I le e'en be Protestant to morrow But let us go on upon our Enquiry You say you have reason to believe the Protestant Religion was Generally profess'd in the Primitive Times for the First Four hundred and fifty years For your satisfaction and mine we 'll take a view of the Christian Religion as then profess'd And that we may proceed with more security and certainty we 'll not descend at present so low as you allow but look at it as 't was practis'd in the time of Constantine the Great who died about the year 337. I make choice of this time because This was the First 〈◊〉 that gave liberty for the Publick Profession of Christianity and establish'd it by Law. 'T was under him all those Pious Learned and Holy Men first appear'd wâ—o till then had been confin'd by cruel Persâ—câ—â—ors to Caves Rocks and Wildernesses 'T was under him the First General Council of Niâ—e was held which we all venerate and whose Creed we all recite and assent to as Apostolical Misrepresent I approve the circumstances For if ever Christianity was Pure and Vncorrupt it must certainly be then when it first shew'd it self to the world and rais'd up its Head from under Perfecution And now you put me in mind of it Dr. Swadlin in his Answer to the 36 Questions reckons This Emperor Constantine the Great for one of the Fathers or Professors of the Proteâ—tant Relition in old times Answ 11. So that I have no exceptions against Him. But who shall give us the account of the Religion then Profess'd Represent Ee'n the Fathers or Professors that then liv'd
but chiefly Eusebius Caesariensis an Historian of that Age and who is listed by Dr. Swadlin in the same place for another Professor of the Protestant Religion Besides we 'll see what account some Modern Protestant Historians give of the Religion of those times Misrepresent Very fairly propos'd See you hold on so to the end and He hear you with patience for I am of the same mind with your Lay-friend and He tell it you freely I have vow'd to follow Truth and Charity where-ever they lead me Represent This is some encouragement if your heart keep pace with your words But lâ—t's enter upon our view First I find Constantine erected a magnificent Church in memory of the Apostles He preâ—ared himself a Sepulchre in it to the end that after death he might be esteemed woâ—th of the prayers which should be performed there in honour of the Apostles He consecrated a Church to the Apostles believing that their memory would be useful and advantâ—gioâ—s to his Soul. Euseb de vit Coast l. 4. c. 60. 2. When he march'd with his Army he carried with him a portable Tabernacle with Priests and Deacons attending it for the celebration of the Divine Mystertes So Zozomenus hist l. 1. c. 8. vers fin 3. He had Lights burning in the Church in the day time so the Centurists Cent 4. 410. relate it out of Eusebius 4. He Translated to Constantinople the Holy Relicks of St. Andrew Luke and Timothy at which the Devils roar'd as 't is worded by St. Jerome who gives the whole Narration of it cont Vigilant Bullinger likewise mentions it de Orig. error 5. He translated to Constantinople for the preservation of that City certain Relicks of the Cross found near Jerusalem by his Mother Helen Centurists Cent. 4. Col. 1529. Being fully perswaded that That City would be perfectly secure wherein such a Relick as this was preserv'd As Socrates relates it Eccles Hist l. 1. c. 17. 6. Under him Pilgrimages were made to Jerusalem the Empress Helen his Mother went thither to Worship as the Centurists have it Cent. 4. col 457. And Eusebius relates how Alexander who liv'd an hundred years before Constantine went in pilgrimage to Jerusalem upon account both of praying there and also of seeing the places Euseb Hist l. 6. c. 11. 7. In his time 't was decreed in a Council held at Arles that Priests might not marry Centurists Cent. 4. Col. 704. 8. He had in great Veneration Sacred Virgins professing perpetual Chastity Euseb de vit Const l. 4. c. 28. And Socrates says that Helen found at Jerusalem Holy Virgins Consecrated to God whom She so highly honour'd that She her self waited upon them and brought them Meat to the Tables at the Entertainment to which She had invited them Ec. Hist l. 1. c. 17. 9. Vnder him were Monks throughout Syria Palestine and Bithynia and other places of Asia in the Dominion of Constantin So the Centurists Cent. 4. Col. 1294. They say likewise he most greatly Reverenc'd Anthony the Monk who lived in the Deserts of Aegypt Cent. 4. Col. 470. Zozom hist l. 1. c. 13. Socrat. Eccles Hist l. 1. c. 21. 10. He restrain'd himself from all Licenousness and Luxury by macerating himself with fastings and bodily austerities Eus de vit Const l. 2. c. 14. 11. He visited and embraced the Sepulcher of Peter and Paul and laying aside his Imperial State he became a Petitioner to the Saints that they would become Intercessors to God for him St. Chrysost in ep 2. Cor. Hom. 26. 12. He Sign'd his Fore-head with the Sign of the Cross Euseb in vit Const l. 3. c. 2. He honour'd the same Sign Eus in laud. Const He had success of Victory in vertue of it and erected it publickly Euseb de vit Const l. 2. c. 7. l. 1. c. 25. 13. He sate not down at the Council of Nice till such time as the Bishops had beckoned to him Euseb ib. l. 3. c. 10. 14. He judg'd it unlawful for him to undertake the Judgment of Ecclesiastical Causes but commited them over to be decided by Bishops Zozom hist l. 1. c. 16. 15. He procur'd the Synod at Arles where the Petition of the Council to Pope Sylvester was that for the Vniform Observation of Easter day throughout the world He would send forth his Letters to all according to antient Custom Osiand in Epit. c. cent 4. p. 182. 16. He subjected all Christian Churches to the Pope insomuch that Mr. Napper in his Treatise upon the Revelations dedicated to King James I. says After the Year of God Three Hundred the Emperor Constantine subdued all Christian Churches to Pope Sylvester from which time till these our days the Pope and his Clergy has possess'd the outward and Visible Church And ib. P. 43. The Popes Kingdom says he has had power over all Christians from the time of Pope Sylvester and â—he Emperor Constantine for these Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Years And ib. p. 145. From the time of Constantine until these our days even One Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Years the Pope and his Clergy has possess'd the outward visible Church of Christians Agen ib. p. 68. Between the year of Christ Three Hundred and Three Hundred and Sixteen the Antichristian and Papistical Râ—â—gn began reigning universally and without any debatable contradiction One Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Years God's True Church most certainly abiding so long Latent and Invisible Nay he goes yet further ib. p. 391. During even the Second and Third Ages says he after Christ the true Temple of God and Light of the Gospel was obscur'd by the Roman Antichrist himself 17. He attributed Primacy to the Bishop of Rome as Frigevillaeus Gauuius owns Pal. Chr. ad Regin Angliae Constantine preferr'd says he the Bishop of Rome and of Constantinople before the rest giving the Primacy to the Bishop of Rome before all And upon this score he is charg'd by the same Author p. 34. fatalâ—y to have given Power to the Beast 18. He reprov'd Acesius the Novatian for denying the Power of remitting sin to be given to Priests Centurists Cent. 4. Col 653. and Socrates l. 1. c. 10. 19. Of his Priests assembled to the Dedication of the Church some of them did Preach and interpret the Holy Scriptures But such as were unable to arrive at these things appeased the Deity with unbloody Sacrifices and Mystick Immolations humbâ—y offering up their Prayers to God for the common peace for the Church of God. So Euseb de vit Const l. 4. c. 45. 20. After his death Prayers were offer'd for his Soul So the Centuriators Cent. 4. Col. 454. where they relate that after his death the People pour'd forth Prayers for the Emperors Soul not without Tears So likewise Eusebius who adds that his Body was vouchsafed a Place with the Monument of the Apostles that it might be vouchsafed the Divine Rites and Mystie Service or Sacrifice de vit Const. l. 4. c. 71.
Time of the First Four General Councils for Teaching and Believing many Points which are of late rejected sor Superstitions of Popery and Inventions of Men Such as attributing Primacy to the See of Rome Tradition Invocation of Saints Honouring the Relicks of Martyrs Prayer for the Dead the Sacrifice of the Mass Transubstantiation c. These and many other such Doctrines Modern Protestants own to have been Taught by the Fathers of the Primitive Church in the Time of the First Councils And now I ask of you Whether the Prelates there assembled did by Canons or Decrees make any Provision against these Doctrines Misrepres I confess I don't find any Canons they made upon this matter Respres How can I believe then that the Reverend Bishops and Divines of those Councils were Protestants You are not ignorant how ill these Doctrines suit with the Protestant Temper You know They look upon the Intercession of Saints as injurious to the Mediation of Christ and Idolatrous The Pope's Primacy is with them an Antichristian Usurpation Honouring Relicks is Superstitious Praying for the Dead an Idle Devotion The Belief of Transubstantiation Unreasonable The Mass an Evacuating of the Sacrifice of the Cross Now can you perswade me that the Fathers of those First Councils could be Protestants and yet let these Doctrines and Practices so Detestable as they must be in their Opinion pass without any Condemnation and Uncensur'd No certainly The Fathers of those Times were more Zealous than so They were Watchful against all Novel Opinions such as were contrary to the Receiv'd Doctrine of the Church and there were no sooner any started tho' in Parts remote from them but they presently took the Alarm and by Writing Preaching Disputing Synods National and Oecumenical did make a most Vigorous Opposition and withstand them And such as continu'd Obstimate in their Errors with Endeavours of drawing Numbers after them and Disturbing the Peace of the Church seldom or never escap'd without the Mark of Heresie or Schism When I consider this State of the Primitive Church happily Flourishing under the Conduct and Care of so many Eminent Prelates and Pastors no less Zealous in Defending their Charge from the Assaults of Innovators and Vpstart Opinions than in Preserving Them in the Receiv'd Doctrines from the Apostles I cannot imagine how to Condemn them assembled in Full Council of such Gross Stupidity or Inexcusable Connivance as they must of necessity be guilty of in passing over so Considerable an Evil which had then overspread the greatest part of the Church And yet if I am to take Them for Protestants they of necessity fall under these Censures in not Reproving or Condemning those Popish Doctrines which as we are assur'd from Modern Protestants in the Times of those Councils had prevail'd upon such great Numbers of the Christian World. And Therefore since as you confess They made no Provision by Decrees or Canone against those Doctrines I am throughly perswaded They were no Protestants Misrepres Then I le warrant you you take them all for Good Papists Repres I must take 'em for Papists or Nothing For I am confident none but Papists could see so much Popery Taught and Practis'd as We have seen from Eusebius and Others under Constantine and in the Time of the First Four Councils and yet pass it by in Silence without Censure or Reproof Your Friend therefore who tells the World that the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally Profess'd would do well to Explicate to the Curious what kind of Protestancy that was heretofore which did agree so well with So much Popery If he do's not clear this Point well many others I believe besides my self will begin to suspect that the Fathers and Prelates assembled in those First Councils of the Primitive Church were rather Papists than Protestants Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XV. The Appeal of Protestants to the Primitive Fathers shewn Injurious to Protestancy from the Concessions of Protestant Writers Luther the Apostle of the Reformation disclaims the Doctrine of the Fathers as not being for his purpose of Reforming Misrepresenter I HAVE a Scruple this Morning that I have given you too much room to look for the Protestant Religion in the Primitive Times If I had Confin'd your Search within a Narrower compass of years you had discover'd more Protestancy and less Popery Repris I have not taken in more Years than you agreed to nor more than are generally allow'd by Protestants You know 't is the Bulwark of the Pretended Reformers to make their Appeal to the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church They acknowledge their Separation from the Church of Rome as it was in the Time of their Reformation and they justifie themselves for so doing because the Church of Rome as they pretend had faln from the Purity of Doctrine profess'd by the Primitive Church into Gross Errors Superstition and Idolatry And therefore since the Church of Rome would not Reform it self 't was necessary They should Separate from it so to Reform the Abuses and Corruptions that had crept in upon Christianity and bring it back to that State of Purity in which it had been practis'd by their Forefathers of the Primitive Church Misrepres Yes this is the True Reason of the Protestants Separating themselves from the Church of Rome and therefore I don't doubt but the Religion as here Establish'd amongst us by Law is the same as was heretofore Generally profess'd by the Primitive Church But the Question is How many Years the Primitive Church continu'd Pure and Uncorrupt that is Protestant as we are at this Day For I see you have look'd back into some Ages Past which I took for Protestant and there has appear'd then so much Popery publickly Exercis'd and Profess'd that I have some reason to suspect that the Christians of those Times were rather Papists than Protestants and that you have been something insincere in this Point and not made your Enquiry so far back as you ought Repres 'T is your Interest rather to suspect Me than the Weakness of Your own Cause But tell me How many Years did you allow me wherein to search for the Protestant Religion in the Past Ages of the Primitive Church Misrepres I gave you the Compass of the first Five hundred Years after Christ And in this I a am sure there was no Mistake of mine For Our Dr. Morton says Prot. Ap. p. 354. that It has been the Constant Prosession of Protestants to stand to the Judgment of Antiquity for the continuance of the First Four hundred Years and more in all things And ib. 573. be says that Protestants are so far from suffering the limitation of the First 440 Years that they give the Romanists the Scope of the First Five or Six hundred Years Bishop Jewel too our Champion and Apologist makes his Challenge
in his Sermon at Paul's Cross to all his Learned Adversaries the Papists to bring against the Protestant Doctrine any one sufficient Sentence out of any One Catholic Doctor or Father for the Space of Six hundred Years after Christ and he is content to yield Whitaker renews the same Challenge Resp ad rat Camp. p. 90. provoking the Papists to the first Six hundred Years and if they can produce any one Father or Council against the Protestant Articles he grants the Victory It is the Offer of us all says he the same do we all promise and we will perform it So that as far as I see I have not exceeded the Protestant Bounds Repres Neither have I in our Enquiry pass'd these Limits Our Search has been restrain'd within the Compass of the First Six hundred Years and the whole System of Popery I have laid before you has been the Belief and Practice of the Christians of those Times And this will oblige you to consider what Grounds you have to trust to for the Support of the Pretended Reformation whilst you see some eminent Protestants Appealing to the Primitive Church of the First Six hundred Years and Challenging the Papists to produce any One Doctor in favour of Popery within that Compass and yet other Protestants at the same time are charging the most Learned and Eminent Fathers of those Ages as Abbettors of Popery and reprove them for being infected with Popish Doctrines Misrepres This you have been often Saying but I must see it Prov'd Repres Do you keep then in your Mind the Challenge of Bishop Jewel above mention'd wherein he provokes the Papists to shew One Father holding against the Protestant Doctrine in the First Six hundred years and bidding them Defiance upon this Trial the like of Whitaker and others and I le let you see the Concessions of some other Protestants upon the same Subject But have Patience then 1. For the allowing Vows of Perpetual Chastity and affirming them to be Obligatory S. Basil Ambrose Chrysostome Epiphanius and S. Austin are reprov'd by Chemnitius Exam. p. 3. p. 41 42. And the General Council of Chalcedon is confess'd to have forbidden Marriage to Monks and Nuns by Just Molit de Eccl. Milit. p. 80. 2. As touching the Sacrament Chrysostom is thought to confirm Transubstantiation Centur. 5. col 517. Eusebius Emissenus did speak unprofitably of Transubstantiation Cent. 4. col 985. In Cyprian are many Sayings which seem to affirm Transubstantiation Ursin Commen p. 211. 3. As concerning Sacrifice it is affirm'd by Learned Protestants that the Ancient Fathers viz. Athanasius Ambrose Austin c. err'd herein So Calvin and Dr. Field who say of them that they made a Sacrifice of the Lords Supper The Centurists likewise affirm of Cyprian that his Judgment in this Point is Superstitious Cent. 3. col 83. That the Writings of Irenaeus and Ignatius are herein incommodious and dangerous Cent. 2. c. 4. col 55. And that presently after the Apostles Times the Supper of our Lord was turn'd into a Sacrifice sebas Franc. in Ep. de Abrog 4. Concerning Prayer for the Dead It was general in the Church lorg before the Days of Austin as appears in Cyprian and Tertullian So Mr. G. Gifford in his Demonst p. 38. Mr. Fulk likewise acknowledges that Tertullian Cyprian Austin Jerome and a great many more do witness that Sacrifice for the Dead is the Tradition of the Apostles Consut of Purg. p. 362. That Prayer and Alms were made for the Dead almost from the very beginning of the Church Bucer in Enar. 4. Evang. in Mat. c. 12. 5. Concerning Merit of Works Dr. Humfrey says It may not be deny'd but that Ireuaeus Clement and others who are call'd Apostolical Men have in their Writings the Opinions of Free-will and Merit of Works Jesuitism par 2. p. 530. Origen and Chrysostome are affirm'd by the Centuriators to have handled impurely the Doctrine of Justification and that they attribute Merit to Works Cent. 3. col 265. and Cent. 5. col 1178. And not only Cyprian but almost all the Holy Fathers of that Time were in that Error as thinking so to pay the Pain due to Sin and to satisfie Gods Justice Whitak in Resp ad Rat. Camp. Rat. 5. 6. Concerning Invocation of Saints The Lord Archbishop of Cant. Discoursing of Doctrines taught in any Age since the Apostles Times affirms without any Exception of Age or Father That almost all the Bishops and Writers of the Grâ—ek Church and Latin also for the most part were spotted with Doctrines of Free-will Merit Invocation of Saints c. Whitgift Def. ag Rep. of Cartw. p. 473. Mr. Fulk likewise says I confess that Ambrose Austin and Jerome held Invocation of Saints to be lawful Rejoyn to Brist p. 5. S Cyprian is charg'd by the Cent. to maintain That Martyrs and Saints departed pray for the Living Cent. 3. col 84. Origen likewise with Prayer for himself to Holy Job and Invocation of Angels Cent. 3 col 83. and col 75. The same Centurists affirm moreover That there are manifest Steps of Invocation of Saints in the Doctors of that Ancient Age. Cent. 3. c. 4. col 83. 7. Concerning Confession and Absolution The Centurists confess That even in those Times of Cyprian and Tertullian was us'd Private Confession and that the same was then commanded and thought necessary Cent. 3 c. 6. col 127. That also Penance or Satisfaction was enjoyn'd according to the Offence Ib. And likewise that the Priest when the Confession was made and Penance enjoyn'd did afterwards Absolve the Penitent with the Ceremony of Impâ—sing his Hand Cent. ib. 8. Concerning the Primacy of Peter above the other Apostles the Ancient Fathers of the Church viz. Jerome Hilary Nazianzen Tertullian Cyprian Origen are reprehended by the Protestant Centurists viz. for affirming the Church to be built upon Peter Cent. 4. col 1215 555 558 c. The same Centurists reprove S. Cyprian for teaching say they without any foundation of Scripture that the Roman Church ought to be acknowledg'd of all other for the Mâ—ther and Root of the Catholic Church Cent. 3. col 84. In like manner Irenaeus who as Hamelmannus says might yet remember the Apostles own lively Preaching is condemn'd by the Centurists for his affirming That all the Churches ought to accord to the Roman Church in regard of a more powerful Principality for which words they charge him with a corrupt Saying concerning the Primacy of the Roman Church Cent. 2. Alph. Tab. word Irenaeus And this Authority of the B. of Rome D. Philip Nicolai referreth for its beginning to the Infirmity of the Apostles and of the first succeeding Bishops of Rome in Comment de Reg. Christ p. 221. With whom concurs Mr. Middleton in his Papist Mast p. 193. No marvail therefore says he tho' perusing Councils Fathers and Stories from the Apostles forward we find the Print of the Popes Feet For these and all other Points of Catholic Doctrine the
currant Testimonies of the Ancient Fathers are so certain and evident that many Learned Protestants upon this Consideration refuse to stand the Test of their Authorities thinking it far more advantageous to their Cause to give them a general Disclaim Hence Mr. Whitaker affirms the Popish Religion to be patcht up out of the Fathers Errors Cont. Dur l. 6. p. 423. And Dr. Humfrey most severely reprehends Mr. Jewel for his so bold Appeal to the Primitive Fathers affirming that herein Mr. Jewel gave the Papists too large a scope was injurious to himself and after a manner spoil'd himself and the Church Misrepres So then I see you intend to claim the Fathers not only of Constantine 's Time and the Following Ages as Abettors of Popery but likewise Those who in the First Centuries immediately succeeded the Apostles And what Room then do you leave for Protestancy Repres 'T is not only I that claim Them but even the Protestants themselves you see of the precedent Age such who were not asham'd to speak the Truth make a surrender of them laying aside all Pretensions either to Them or their Doctrine And when they have disown'd all the Fathers one by one from Clement Ignatius Irenaeus who liv'd in the Apostles Days and succeeded them in their Function to S. Jerome Austin Leo Gregory the last of which surviv'd the Fifth Century when they have declar'd that Antichrist began his Reign and obscur'd the Light of the Gospel even from the Time of the Apostles I wonder what Room as you say there 's left for Protestancy It savours something of a Mystery methinks call'd Nonsense to say the Protestant Religion is the same Pure Religion as was Anciently and Generally Profess'd amongst the Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church and then to condemn the same Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church for being infected with Popery and giving way to Antichrist Wherefore to avoid these Inconveniences if you 'l take my Advice Misrepresenter I believe you had better pretend no longer Right to the Primitive Fathers but as you have condemn'd the Eight hundred Years next before the Reformation of Damnable Errors and Popish Superstitions to take one step further back and e'en take in the other Six hundred Years too and so condemn them all in the lump from Christ's Time to Luther for being Papists and Popishly affected Never Mince the matter They were all Men you know and subject to Error and when you are once in 't is as easily condemning your Fore-fathers for Fourteen Ages as for Eight Your First Reforming-Apostles were something of this mind and thought it no more difficulty to Censure and Condemn the Primitive Fathers than Those they found in the time of K. Henry 8. but were for Reforming all with the same Hand Hearken a little to your courageous Luther In the Writings says he of Jerome there is not a word of True Faith in Christ and Sound Religion Tertullian is very Superstitious I have held Origen long since Accursed of Chrysostome I make no account Basil is of no worth he is wholly a Monk I value him not of a Hair Cyprian is a Weak Divine The Apology of Philip Melancthon far excels all the Dostors of the Church and exceeds even Austin himself Coll. Mens c. de Patr. Eccles And in another place The Fathers says he of so many Ages have been plainly Blind and most Ignorant in the Scriptures They err'd all their Life-time and unless they were mended before their Deaths they were neither Saints nor pertaining to God's Church To. 2. l. de Serv. Arbit Peter Martyr is of the same mind and therefore says plainly That as long as we stand to Councils and Fathers we shall always remain infected with the same Errors viz. of Popery And certainly Misrepresenter these Your First Setters up for Reformation were in the Right on 't for nothing can possibly so strengthen Protestancy and justifie the Separation as this Levelling Divinity For your Going by halves and pretending to be of the Religion of the First Ages of the Church fills People with Doubts and Scruples whilst looking back upon the Professors of those Times instead of Protestancy they find so much Popery amongst them Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XVI A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy The Art of Interpreting do's Feats it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity Represent HOW stands your Head to day Misrepresenter have you Consider'd the Proposal I made you at our last Meeting Are you for disclaiming all Title to the Primitive Church and Huffing those Ancient Fathers as Luther Peter Martyr and others did who designing a Through-Reformation were alike for calling those Great Doctors to an account of the First Ages as they did those they found in the Time of King Henry 8 Or are you for Reforming upon These First Reformers and taking in those Primitive Fathers of the Church for Protestants which They cast off and Condemn'd for Papists Misrepres I have Consider'd this Matter very seriously and taken the Advice of Friends upon the Point And therefore to be short with you I value no more the Saying of Luther than he did Those Ancient Fathers whom he condemn'd as Weak Divines Superstitious and Valu'd not of a Hair. He was so near the Times of Darkness that he could not well look back and make Judgment of any thing behind him Repres Nay I commend you in this 't is only just to serve him in his kind 'T was Tertullian's Saying Curâ—â—nm idem licet Marcionitis quod Marcioni If Marcion has rebell'd against the Church why should his Followers think much to rebel against him And since Luther cast off all Authority and valu'd not the Writings and Doctrine of the most Eminent Fathers of the Primitive Church why shou'd any one think much of undervaluing him by his own Example If Luther could so easily throw by S. Cyprian for a Weak Divine and S. Basil for being wholly a Monk is not this Precedent enough for any Follower of Luther to cast him off for an Apostate Friar and an Ambitious Divine Well but if you Reform upon Luther in this Point and don 't think fit with him to lay aside all the Writings of the Ancient Fathers as Erroneous and Superstitious what do you do with all those troublesome Passages in their Works wherein They are such Positive Asserters of Popish Doctrines that 't is impossible for any Man to take the Authors for any thing but Papists which do's not well suit with your Claim to them as Protestants Misrepres Pish I value no more these Difficulties than Luther did the Fathers that is not of a Hair. If the First Reformers bad their Eyes but half open what 's that to us who have the Noon-light of the Gospel shining upon us