congregation_n or_o the_o congregation_n will_v be_v partial_a and_o unjust_a or_o when_o the_o business_n be_v difficile_a and_o intricate_a than_o we_o may_v appeal_v from_o the_o congregation_n else_o we_o may_v not_o these_o thing_n i_o say_v do_v not_o clear_v the_o matter_n at_o all_o because_o still_o the_o question_n remain_v who_o must_v be_v judge_n of_o these_o thing_n whether_o the_o party_n appeal_n or_o the_o congregation_n from_o who_o or_o the_o synod_n to_o who_o the_o appeal_n be_v make_v and_o unless_o this_o be_v determine_v the_o thing_n mention_v allege_v by_o our_o brother_n do_v afford_v we_o small_a help_n in_o the_o matter_n for_o the_o clear_n of_o it_o and_o therefore_o what_o we_o say_v in_o the_o answer_n do_v still_o for_o aught_o i_o see_v remain_v sound_n viz._n that_o there_o must_v be_v some_o final_a and_o supreme_a judgement_n that_o controversy_n may_v not_o by_o appeal_n after_o appeal_n be_v spin_v out_o in_o infinitum_fw-la and_o to_o determine_v where_o that_o supremacy_n do_v lie_v be_v the_o main_a question_n which_o unless_o it_o be_v determine_v the_o usefulness_n of_o appeal_n may_v be_v grant_v and_o yet_o we_o shall_v be_v still_o at_o uncertainty_n about_o the_o thing_n in_o question_n and_o as_o much_o to_o seek_v as_o before_o because_o that_o there_o ought_v to_o be_v appeal_n till_o you_o come_v to_o the_o high_a be_v one_o thing_n and_o that_o a_o synod_n and_o nâ—t_v the_o congregation_n be_v the_o high_a be_v another_o now_o whether_o our_o brother_n in_o that_o which_o we_o have_v hitherto_o hear_v have_v sufficient_o clear_v it_o unto_o we_o that_o we_o may_v know_v where_o this_o supremacy_n do_v lie_v i_o leave_v it_o to_o the_o judicious_a to_o consider_v chap._n viii_o whether_o antioch_n act._n 15._o have_v right_a to_o have_v end_v the_o controversy_n among_o themselves_o if_o they_o have_v be_v able_a and_o whether_o their_o send_n to_o jerusalem_n for_o help_v or_o their_o knowledge_n that_o other_o church_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a evil_n or_o the_o party_n among_o themselves_o who_o be_v against_o the_o truth_n do_v prove_v the_o contrary_n and_o of_o supremacy_n of_o power_n in_o congregation_n but_o though_o our_o author_n do_v not_o clear_v it_o to_o we_o where_o the_o supremacy_n do_v lie_v yet_o in_o this_o pag_n 423_o and_o 424._o he_o use_v a_o argument_n from_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n of_o antioch_n act._n 15._o and_o our_o own_o doctrine_n concern_v the_o same_o to_o prove_v that_o it_o do_v not_o lie_v in_o the_o congregation_n which_o argument_n we_o be_v willing_a to_o consider_v his_o word_n be_v those_o that_o supremacy_n of_o power_n shall_v be_v in_o a_o congregation_n without_o any_o power_n of_o appeal_n i_o think_v our_o brethren_n can_v teach_v for_o when_o the_o church_n of_o antioch_n can_v judge_v a_o matter_n concern_v the_o necessity_n of_o keep_v moses_n law_n they_o by_o nature_n direction_n act._n 15._o 2._o decree_n to_o send_v paul_n and_o barnabas_n and_o other_o to_o jerusalem_n to_o the_o apostle_n and_o elder_n as_o to_o a_o high_a judicature_n that_o there_o truth_n may_v be_v determine_v and_o then_o he_o add_v that_o mr._n tompson_n and_o myself_o do_v teach_v that_o the_o church_n of_o antioch_n have_v jus_o power_n to_o judge_n and_o determine_v the_o controversy_n but_o because_o of_o the_o difficulty_n have_v not_o light_a to_o judge_v thereof_o allege_v for_o this_o in_o the_o margin_n the_o answer_n chap._n 4._o page_n 42._o ergo_fw-la say_v he_o they_o must_v acknowledge_v appeal_v by_o nature_n light_n warrantable_a as_o well_o as_o we_o answ_n that_o appeal_n be_v warrantable_a and_o warrantable_a by_o nature_n light_n till_o we_o come_v to_o the_o supreme_a judicatorie_a this_o we_o deny_v not_o but_o have_v former_o yield_v no_o less_o but_o for_o that_o our_o brother_n here_o aim_v at_o viz._n appeal_v from_o a_o congregationall_a church_n as_o not_o be_v supreme_a to_o another_o judicatory_a this_o we_o conceive_v be_v not_o prove_v by_o the_o example_n of_o the_o church_n of_o antioch_n nor_o by_o any_o thing_n that_o we_o have_v write_v concern_v the_o same_o and_o the_o reason_n it_o because_o antioch_n have_v right_a and_o authority_n to_o have_v end_v the_o matter_n among_o themselves_o if_o ability_n have_v serve_v thereto_o and_o their_o send_n to_o jerusalem_n for_o help_n may_v argue_v want_n of_o agreement_n or_o imperfection_n of_o light_n but_o argue_v no_o want_n of_o authority_n or_o right_n within_o themselves_o for_o it_o be_v plain_a verse_n 2_o that_o antioch_n do_v endeavour_v to_o have_v end_v the_o matter_n among_o themselves_o and_o have_v much_o disputation_n about_o it_o for_o that_o end_n afore_o there_o be_v any_o speech_n of_o send_v to_o jerusalem_n now_o this_o endeavour_n do_v argue_v their_o right_n for_o otherwise_o it_o have_v be_v sinful_a as_o be_v a_o presume_v to_o do_v that_o which_o do_v not_o belong_v to_o they_o this_o reason_n we_o have_v render_v afore_o in_o the_o place_n which_o our_o author_n allege_v and_o he_o do_v not_o at_o all_o remove_v it_o and_o therefore_o we_o be_v still_o of_o the_o same_o mind_n as_o before_o that_o antioch_n be_v not_o dependent_a upon_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o other_o church_n but_o have_v independent_a power_n within_o themselves_o as_o many_o may_v have_v who_o yet_o need_v the_o help_n of_o light_n from_o other_o for_o their_o direction_n in_o use_v their_o power_n great_a king_n and_o monarch_n have_v receive_v light_n from_o their_o counsellor_n without_o any_o impeachment_n of_o their_o independent_a power_n which_o they_o have_v in_o themselves_o and_o without_o any_o ascribe_v of_o that_o power_n to_o those_o their_o counselor_n as_o we_o say_v in_o the_o place_n allege_v antioch_n may_v send_v to_o jerusalem_n for_o help_v and_o yet_o this_o send_v neither_o prove_v right_a of_o jurisdiction_n in_o they_o who_o be_v send_v unto_o nor_o want_v of_o jurisdiction_n in_o they_o who_o do_v send_v and_o therefore_o whereas_o our_o brother_n say_v antioch_n because_o of_o the_o difficulty_n of_o the_o controversy_n have_v not_o light_a to_o judge_v thereof_o ergo_fw-la we_o must_v acknowledge_v appeal_v to_o be_v warrantable_a we_o will_v rather_o argue_v thus_o antioch_n want_v light_n ergo_fw-la counsel_n and_o light_n be_v to_o be_v seek_v elsewhere_o and_o thus_o we_o conceive_v the_o inference_n will_v hold_v but_o to_o say_v ergo_fw-la there_o must_v be_v appeal_v from_o the_o congregation_n to_o other_o in_o matter_n of_o jurisdiction_n this_o we_o conceive_v will_v not_o follow_v at_o all_o no_o more_o than_o it_o will_v follow_v king_n or_o other_o supreme_a civil_a ruler_n must_v seek_v light_a and_o direction_n from_o their_o counselor_n ergo_fw-la there_o lie_v a_o appeal_n from_o they_o to_o those_o counselor_n which_o consequence_n none_o will_v maintain_v nor_o affirm_v if_o the_o scripture_n have_v say_v that_o antioch_n do_v never_o attempt_v to_o â—nd_v that_o controversy_n as_o know_v that_o the_o end_n thereof_o belong_v not_o to_o they_o but_o to_o other_o or_o if_o it_o have_v say_v that_o the_o censure_v of_o these_o obtruder_n of_o circumcision_n have_v be_v perform_v by_o they_o of_o jerusalem_n and_o not_o by_o they_o of_o antioch_n as_o not_o belong_v to_o antioch_n but_o to_o they_o of_o jerusalem_n than_o our_o brother_n may_v have_v have_v some_o ground_n from_o antioch_n to_o prove_v the_o necessity_n or_o warrantablenesse_n of_o appeal_n from_o congregationall_a church_n to_o other_o judicatories_n but_o such_o no_o such_o thing_n be_v say_v we_o see_v not_o how_o this_o example_n can_v be_v any_o ground_n for_o the_o establish_n of_o such_o appeal_n or_o the_o take_n away_o from_o congregationall_a church_n their_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n within_o themselves_o especial_o we_o see_v not_o how_o this_o our_o brother_n can_v allege_v the_o same_o for_o such_o a_o purpose_n consider_v what_o himself_o have_v write_v elsewhere_o in_o this_o learned_a treatise_n of_o he_o wherein_o he_o examine_v that_o answer_n of_o we_o two_o passage_n in_o his_o treatise_n i_o propound_v to_o consideration_n which_o seem_v to_o i_o to_o make_v for_o that_o independent_a or_o supreme_a power_n in_o congregation_n which_o here_o he_o be_v dispute_v against_o the_o one_o be_v that_o which_o we_o touch_v before_o in_o his_o page_n 413._o where_o he_o say_v that_o synod_n in_o case_n of_o neglect_n of_o presbyterial_a church_n be_v to_o command_v the_o particular_a church_n who_o it_o concern_v to_o do_v their_o duty_n as_o in_o other_o particular_n there_o name_v so_o in_o excommunication_n of_o offender_n and_o further_o that_o the_o synod_n act._n 15._o be_v to_o remit_v the_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n to_o the_o presbytery_n of_o antioch_n and_o jerusalem_n in_o case_n of_o the_o obstinacy_n of_o these_o obtruder_n of_o circumcision_n which_o i_o
use_v 2._o he_o argue_v by_o analogy_n from_o that_o act_n 11._o where_o peter_n give_v account_n before_o the_o whole_a church_n even_o the_o church_n of_o the_o faithful_a and_o therefore_o in_o like_a sort_n paul_n and_o barnabas_n may_v report_v before_o the_o whole_a church_n of_o the_o faithful_a what_o thing_n god_n have_v do_v by_o they_o 3._o say_v he_o they_o make_v relation_n to_o that_o church_n which_o have_v send_v they_o forth_o with_o prayer_n and_o imposition_n of_o hand_n and_o this_o church_n stand_v of_o all_o those_o who_o assemble_v to_o the_o public_a service_n and_o worship_n of_o god_n which_o be_v clear_a act_v 13._o 2._o 4._o his_o four_o particular_a be_v this_o other_o place_n of_o act_n 15._o vers_fw-la 30._o where_o say_v he_o the_o people_n of_o the_o church_n of_o antioch_n be_v gather_v together_o to_o consider_v of_o decree_n send_v they_o by_o the_o apostle_n from_o jerusalem_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o all_o which_o we_o clear_o perceive_v the_o judgement_n of_o this_o worthy_a man_n to_o be_v the_o same_o with_o we_o and_o as_o clear_o against_o mr._n rutherford_n as_o can_v be_v express_v which_o be_v so_o and_o his_o judgement_n be_v deliver_v upon_o such_o reason_n as_o seem_v to_o i_o weighty_a and_o which_o mr._n rutherford_n do_v not_o remove_v i_o therefore_o see_v no_o sufficient_a reason_n to_o think_v otherwise_o of_o the_o church_n of_o antioch_n then_o former_o for_o as_o for_o m._n rutherford_n his_o reason_n to_o prove_v the_o place_n act_v 14._o 27._o to_o be_v mean_v of_o a_o representative_a church_n viz._n that_o they_o meet_v for_o a_o matter_n of_o discipline_n at_o least_o for_o a_o matter_n that_o concern_v all_o the_o church_n to_o wit_n to_o know_v how_o god_n have_v open_v the_o door_n of_o say_v unto_o the_o gentile_n the_o answer_n be_v that_o this_o do_v not_o evince_v the_o thing_n 1._o because_o rehearse_v how_o god_n have_v open_v the_o door_n of_o faith_n unto_o the_o gentile_n be_v neither_o admission_n of_o member_n nor_o of_o officer_n nor_o any_o matter_n of_o censure_n nor_o any_o thing_n else_o but_o only_o a_o mere_a declaration_n of_o the_o gracious_a work_n of_o the_o lord_n can_v be_v any_o matter_n of_o discipline_n as_o i_o conceive_v 2._o suppose_v it_o be_v a_o meeting_n for_o matter_n of_o discipline_n must_v it_o need_v be_v a_o meeting_n for_o elder_n alone_o without_o the_o presence_n of_o the_o faithful_a will_n mr._n rutherford_n deny_v it_o to_o be_v lawful_a for_o any_o to_o be_v present_a at_o matter_n of_o discipline_n but_o only_o the_o elder_n i_o suppose_v he_o will_v not_o deny_v it_o at_o all_o sure_o i_o be_o he_o have_v heretofore_o write_v otherways_o peaceable_a plea_n p._n 49._o where_o he_o grant_v that_o all_o matter_n of_o discipline_n must_v be_v do_v with_o the_o people_n consent_n and_o allege_v about_o 19_o or_o 20._o divine_v old_a and_o new_a for_o the_o same_o tenet_n now_o if_o matter_n of_o discipline_n must_v be_v do_v with_o the_o people_n consent_n than_o the_o people_n must_v be_v present_a thereat_o for_o else_o they_o give_v their_o consent_n blindefold_a and_o if_o they_o must_v be_v present_a at_o such_o matter_n then_o suppose_v the_o matter_n mention_v in_o the_o scripture_n we_o have_v in_o hand_n have_v be_v of_o that_o nature_n yet_o the_o church_n that_o be_v gather_v together_o about_o the_o same_o need_v not_o to_o be_v a_o representative_a church_n of_o elder_n alone_o as_o mr._n rutherford_n will_v have_v it_o but_o may_v consist_v of_o the_o people_n also_o who_o by_o his_o own_o grant_n may_v be_v lawful_o present_a at_o such_o matter_n 3._o be_v it_o a_o matter_n of_o discipline_n or_o a_o matter_n that_o concern_v all_o the_o church_n or_o what_o else_o mr._n rutherford_n will_v have_v it_o it_o be_v plain_a that_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n when_o they_o be_v at_o jerusalem_n do_v declare_v such_o matter_n as_o here_o they_o do_v declare_v at_o antioch_n not_o only_o to_o the_o apostle_n and_o elder_n who_o he_o perhaps_o will_v make_v a_o representative_a church_n but_o also_o to_o a_o church_n beside_o they_o i_o mean_v beside_o the_o apostle_n and_o elder_n for_o so_o it_o be_v say_v act_v 15._o 4._o that_o at_o jerusâ—lem_n they_o be_v receive_v of_o the_o church_n and_o of_o the_o apostle_n and_o elder_n and_o declare_v all_o thing_n that_o god_n have_v do_v with_o they_o and_o vers_fw-la 12._o they_o declare_v to_o the_o multitude_n what_o miracle_n and_o wonder_n god_n have_v wrought_v among_o the_o gentile_n by_o they_o now_o if_o they_o declare_v these_o thing_n at_o jerusalem_n not_o only_o to_o the_o apostle_n and_o elder_n as_o to_o a_o representative_a church_n but_o to_o the_o church_n of_o the_o faithful_a also_o as_o the_o text_n say_v they_o do_v what_o reason_n can_v be_v render_v that_o the_o church_n which_o be_v gather_v together_o at_o antioch_n shall_v be_v only_o a_o representative_a church_n and_o that_o the_o people_n there_o be_v not_o present_a for_o my_o part_n i_o see_v no_o reason_n for_o it_o but_o that_o they_o may_v declare_v these_o thing_n to_o the_o brethren_n aâ—_n antioch_n as_o well_o as_o to_o the_o brethren_n at_o jerusalem_n and_o as_o well_o to_o a_o representative_a church_n at_o jerusalem_n as_o to_o a_o representative_a church_n at_o antioch_n and_o therefore_o since_o it_o be_v apparent_a that_o at_o jerusalem_n they_o declare_v these_o thing_n to_o a_o church_n which_o consist_v of_o other_o beside_o apostle_n and_o elder_n the_o church_n at_o antioch_n to_o who_o they_o declare_v the_o same_o thing_n may_v be_v also_o a_o church_n of_o the_o like_a kind_n and_o not_o a_o representative_a church_n as_o our_o brother_n conceive_v it_o to_o be_v 4._o the_o nature_n of_o the_o thing_n which_o they_o do_v declare_v to_o this_o church_n be_v such_o as_o that_o it_o be_v fit_a enough_o for_o the_o people_n to_o be_v acquaint_v therewith_o which_o the_o text_n mention_n in_o two_o clause_n first_o more_o general_o all_o that_o god_n have_v do_v with_o they_o second_o more_o special_o how_o he_o have_v open_v the_o door_n of_o faith_n to_o the_o gentile_n now_o suppose_v the_o people_n have_v nothing_o to_o do_v in_o matter_n of_o judicature_n by_o way_n of_o power_n therein_o yet_o to_o be_v inform_v of_o other_o people_n conversion_n and_o how_o god_n bless_v the_o labour_n of_o the_o apostle_n to_o that_o end_n which_o be_v the_o thing_n they_o declare_v to_o this_o church_n these_o be_v no_o such_o matter_n but_o the_o people_n may_v be_v acquaint_v therewith_o for_o their_o comfort_n and_o that_o god_n may_v have_v praise_n from_o they_o all_o and_o therefore_o the_o church_n to_o who_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n declare_v these_o thing_n need_v not_o to_o be_v understand_v of_o the_o elder_n alone_o but_o may_v well_o enough_o be_v a_o church_n consist_v also_o of_o ordinary_a christian_n 5._o paul_n think_v it_o not_o unmeet_a to_o make_v know_v to_o all_o the_o corinthian_n the_o grace_n of_o god_n bestow_v on_o the_o church_n of_o macedonia_n 2_o cor._n 9_o 1_o 2._o and_o declare_v to_o they_o of_o macedonia_n the_o forwardness_n of_o the_o corinthian_n in_o the_o grace_n of_o liberality_n 2_o cor._n 9_o 2._o show_v the_o good_a that_o come_v hereby_o in_o that_o the_o example_n of_o god_n grace_n in_o some_o provoke_v many_o other_o to_o the_o like_a 2_o cor._n 9_o 2._o your_o zeal_n say_v he_o have_v provoke_v very_o many_o and_o likewise_o in_o that_o by_o this_o mean_n there_o redound_v many_o thanksgiving_n unto_o god_n vers_fw-la 12_o 13._o and_o if_o upon_o these_o and_o other_o good_a cause_n he_o do_v thus_o practice_n towards_o the_o christian_n of_o macedonia_n and_o achaia_n i_o know_v no_o good_a reason_n why_o he_o and_o barnabas_n shall_v deal_v otherwise_o with_o the_o christian_n at_o antioch_n and_o conceal_v from_o they_o the_o gracious_a work_n of_o god_n by_o their_o ministry_n among_o the_o gentile_n and_o make_v know_v the_o same_o only_a to_o a_o representative_a church_n of_o elder_n as_o for_o our_o brother_n answer_n to_o the_o other_o scripture_n act._n 15._o 30._o that_o the_o assemble_v of_o the_o multitude_n there_o speak_v of_o must_v be_v take_v distributive_o i_o conceive_v the_o text_n will_v not_o bear_v that_o exposition_n for_o the_o word_n be_v that_o they_o gather_v the_o multitude_n together_o then_o deliver_v the_o epistle_n now_o if_o this_o multitude_n be_v gather_v together_o not_o in_o one_o assembly_n but_o diverse_a how_o can_v the_o epistle_n be_v but_o one_o be_v deliver_v to_o they_o all_o can_v one_o epistle_n be_v deliver_v to_o sundry_a or_o several_a assembly_n at_o one_o time_n i_o suppose_v it_o be_v not_o possible_a except_o we_o shall_v imagine_v there_o be_v sundry_a copy_n one_o to_o be_v
have_v take_v thing_n upon_o my_o report_n upon_o trust_n and_o partly_o that_o my_o candid_a and_o fair_a deal_n with_o the_o author_n who_o i_o have_v to_o do_v withal_o may_v the_o better_o appear_v for_o when_o a_o man_n word_n be_v not_o keep_v but_o forsake_v and_o other_o substitute_v in_o their_o place_n his_o mind_n and_o meaning_n may_v soon_o be_v mistake_v and_o represent_v amiss_o unto_o the_o reader_n which_o be_v a_o practice_n that_o i_o have_v often_o see_v but_o never_o approve_v and_o therefore_o i_o have_v not_o use_v it_o for_o i_o will_v be_v loath_a to_o wrong_v any_o man_n special_o a_o man_n of_o such_o worth_a as_o i_o take_v master_n rutherfurd_n to_o be_v by_o impute_v to_o he_o what_o he_o do_v not_o teach_v nor_o deliver_v and_o for_o this_o cause_n it_o be_v that_o i_o have_v usual_o transcribe_v and_o express_v his_o own_o word_n and_o by_o this_o mean_v my_o book_n be_v grow_v to_o the_o great_a bulk_n one_o thing_n more_o i_o will_v advertise_v the_o reader_n of_o and_o then_o i_o shall_v quick_o have_v do_v the_o figure_n from_o 185_o and_o so_o forward_o note_v the_o number_n of_o the_o page_n in_o master_n rutherfurd_n his_o treatise_n be_v set_v down_o twice_o therein_o once_o in_o their_o proper_a place_n and_o again_o after_o the_o page_n 484._o wherefore_o if_o any_o of_o these_o page_n be_v quote_v in_o this_o reply_n as_o some_o of_o they_o be_v if_o the_o thing_n that_o be_v allege_v be_v not_o find_v in_o the_o page_n that_o be_v name_v look_v for_o it_o in_o the_o other_o place_n of_o the_o book_n where_o be_v the_o same_o figure_n and_o there_o you_o may_v find_v it_o courteous_a reader_n study_v the_o truth_n in_o a_o way_n of_o piety_n and_o peace_n be_v zealous_a for_o it_o but_o lose_v not_o love_v to_o the_o saint_n beware_v when_o the_o world_n be_v fill_v with_o dispute_n about_o discipline_n that_o thou_o be_v not_o draw_v only_o to_o erroneous_a opinion_n in_o main_a matter_n of_o doctrine_n be_v sure_a to_o practice_v and_o express_v the_o power_n of_o godliness_n in_o humility_n of_o mind_n mortification_n of_o thy_o own_o corruption_n faith_n in_o the_o lord_n jesus_n and_o love_n to_o all_o his_o redeem_v and_o be_v not_o by_o any_o mean_v draw_v away_o from_o these_o thing_n which_o do_v so_o main_o conduce_v to_o thy_o salvation_n final_o as_o the_o holy_a ghost_n say_v phil._n 4._o 8_o 9_o whatsoever_o thing_n be_v true_a whatsoever_o thing_n be_v honest_a whatsoever_o thing_n be_v just_a whatsoever_o thing_n be_v lovely_a pure_a and_o of_o good_a report_n if_o there_o be_v any_o virtue_n if_o there_o be_v any_o praise_n think_v on_o these_o thing_n and_o do_v they_o and_o the_o god_n of_o peace_n shall_v be_v with_o thou_o improve_v i_o pray_v such_o interest_n as_o thou_o have_v in_o god_n through_o the_o mediator_n by_o afford_v the_o help_n of_o thy_o prayer_n for_o i_o who_o be_o true_o desirous_a of_o thy_o salvation_n r._n m._n decemb._n 10._o 1646._o a_o table_n of_o the_o content_n of_o the_o ensue_a treatise_n chap._n 1._o of_o appeal_v from_o particular_a congregation_n and_o the_o true_a cause_n of_o appeal_v and_o whether_o by_o mr_n rutherford_n his_o doctrine_n in_o this_o point_n there_o must_v not_o be_v appeal_n to_o general_n counsel_n who_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n he_o do_v not_o yet_o deny_v page_n 2._o chap._n 2._o of_o the_o power_n of_o synod_n to_o give_v advite_v and_o counsel_n and_o whether_o from_o thence_o it_o do_v follow_v that_o they_o have_v no_o power_n to_o command_v page_n 11._o chap._n 3._o of_o the_o assembly_n acts._n 15._o whither_o they_o do_v exercise_v any_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n against_o the_o obtruder_n of_o circumcision_n and_o whether_o their_o rebuke_v of_o they_o do_v argue_v the_o affirmative_a page_n 15._o chap._n 4._o of_o the_o dogmatic_a power_n of_o synod_n and_o of_o the_o power_n of_o congregation_n to_o determine_v matter_n among_o themselves_o if_o ability_n serve_v thereto_o page_n 21._o chap._n 5._o again_o of_o that_o assembly_n acts._n 15._o whither_o their_o rebuke_v the_o false_a teacher_n do_v prove_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o excommunication_n in_o synod_n and_o whether_o preach_v do_v prove_v the_o assembly_n where_o it_o be_v to_o be_v a_o church_n page_n 24._o chap._n 6._o whether_o the_o power_n of_o synod_n be_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o of_o the_o dependence_n of_o the_o synagogue_n upon_o the_o synedrion_fw-mi at_o jerusalem_n page_n 30._o chap._n 7._o whether_o the_o lawfulness_n or_o necessity_n of_o appeal_v do_v prove_v a_o superiority_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o synod_n over_o congregation_n and_o of_o sundry_a say_n of_o our_o author_n which_o seem_v to_o interfere_v page_n 39_o chap._n 8._o whether_o antioch_n acts._n 15._o have_v right_a to_o have_v end_v the_o controversy_n among_o themselves_o if_o they_o have_v be_v able_a and_o whether_o their_o send_n to_o jerusalem_n for_o help_v or_o their_o knowledge_n that_o other_o church_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a evil_n or_o the_o party_n among_o themselves_o who_o be_v against_o the_o truth_n do_v prove_v the_o contrary_n and_o of_o supremacy_n of_o power_n in_o congregation_n page_n 49._o chap._n 9_o whether_o the_o congregationall_a way_n or_o the_o presbyterial_a do_v make_v the_o gospel_n more_o defective_a than_o the_o law_n of_o excommunication_n by_o a_o church_n that_o have_v only_o three_o elder_n and_o of_o do_v thing_n sudden_o page_n 66._o chap._n 10._o whether_o the_o necessity_n of_o discipline_n be_v great_a than_o of_o sacrament_n and_o whether_o a_o congregation_n that_o have_v neighbour_n may_v not_o exercise_v entireness_n of_o jurisdiction_n as_o well_o as_o one_o that_o have_v none_o and_o whether_o a_o man_n may_v take_v on_o he_o the_o whole_a minestry_n have_v no_o outward_a call_n thereto_o and_o may_v not_o as_o well_o take_v on_o he_o one_o act_n of_o baptise_v or_o minister_a the_o lord_n supper_n page_n 75._o chap._n 11._o whether_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n flow_v immediate_o from_o the_o essence_n of_o a_o church_n do_v not_o agree_v to_o a_o church_n that_o have_v neighbour_n as_o well_o as_o to_o a_o church_n that_o have_v none_o and_o whether_o otherwise_o neighbour_a church_n be_v not_o a_o loss_n and_o whether_o pretence_n of_o maladministration_n be_v a_o sufficient_a reason_n for_o neighbour_a church_n to_o deprive_v a_o congregation_n of_o its_o power_n page_n 93_o chap._n 12._o whether_o it_o be_v against_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n that_o the_o adverse_a party_n be_v judge_n and_o whether_o mr_n rutherford_n can_v safe_o say_v that_o none_o of_o they_o do_v so_o teach_v and_o whether_o this_o say_n that_o party_n may_v not_o be_v judge_n do_v make_v against_o entireness_n of_o power_n in_o a_o congregation_n any_o more_o than_o in_o a_o general_n or_o national_n council_n page_n 104._o chap._n 13._o whether_o the_o church_n at_o thessalonica_n and_o jerusalem_n be_v each_o of_o they_o more_o than_o one_o congregation_n and_o of_o mr._n baynes_n his_o judgement_n therein_o of_o the_o assembly_n mention_v luke_n 12._o and_o whether_o our_o saviour_n do_v there_o speak_v to_o his_o disciple_n only_o or_o to_o all_o the_o people_n also_o page_n 112._o chap._n 14._o whether_o the_o church_n at_o corinth_n be_v one_o church_n meet_v distributive_o in_o sundry_a congregation_n or_o whether_o it_o be_v only_o one_o congregation_n and_o whether_o 1_o cor._n 14._o 23._o if_o the_o whole_a church_n come_v together_o in_o some_o place_n etc._n etc._n do_v make_v for_o sundry_a congregation_n or_o for_o one_o only_a page_n 123._o chap._n 15._o whether_o the_o church_n at_o ephesus_n be_v more_o in_o number_n then_o corinth_n and_o jerusalem_n and_o the_o judgement_n of_o mr_n baynes_n whether_o that_o church_n be_v many_o congregation_n or_o one_o only_a page_n 137._o chap._n 16._o whether_o the_o church_n at_o antioch_n be_v only_o one_o congregation_n and_o whether_o acts._n 14._o 27._o and_o 15._o 30._o do_v not_o prove_v the_o affirmative_a page_n 140._o chap._n 17._o whether_o or_o no_o liberty_n be_v give_v by_o christ_n to_o the_o people_n but_o woman_n must_v exercise_v the_o same_o as_o well_o as_o man_n and_o of_o the_o people_n liberty_n about_o ordination_n or_o the_o call_n of_o minister_n page_n 146._o chap._n 18._o of_o mr_n rutherford_n report_n of_o synodical_a proposition_n in_o new-england_n page_n 151._o chap._n 19_o of_o the_o appeal_v of_o luther_n and_o cranmer_n and_o of_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o general_a counsel_n deny_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n whether_o therein_o be_v do_v not_o contradict_v himself_o and_o also_o overthrow_v the_o jurisdiction_n of_o classical_a provincial_n and_o national_n assembly_n page_n 153._o chap._n 20._o if_o it_o be_v grant_v that_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n teach_v all_o
excommunication_n in_o the_o case_n propose_v and_o therefore_o i_o see_v not_o how_o it_o can_v be_v sufficient_a to_o prove_v such_o a_o power_n in_o a_o synod_n for_o which_o purpose_n master_n rutherford_n bring_v it_o of_o necessity_n for_o aught_o that_o i_o see_v one_o of_o these_o must_v be_v say_v either_o that_o this_o assembly_n have_v no_o power_n to_o rebuke_v the_o man_n but_o must_v suffer_v his_o sin_n to_o be_v upon_o he_o though_o god_n be_v dishonour_v and_o other_o endanger_v thereby_o or_o else_o it_o must_v be_v say_v they_o have_v power_n to_o excommunicate_v he_o as_o well_o as_o to_o rebuke_v he_o neither_o of_o which_o i_o conceive_v can_v safe_o be_v say_v or_o if_o neither_o of_o these_o can_v be_v say_v it_o must_v then_o follow_v that_o their_o may_v be_v power_n to_o rebuke_v even_o in_o a_o assembly_n of_o many_o person_n a_o political_a society_n and_o yet_o the_o same_o assembly_n have_v no_o power_n at_o all_o to_o excommunicate_v the_o person_n so_o rebuke_v and_o so_o this_o learned_a brother_n argue_v be_v answer_v likewise_o i_o suppose_v it_o will_v not_o be_v deny_v but_o one_o congregation_n if_o need_v so_o require_v may_v rebuke_v and_o reprove_v another_o congregation_n though_o neither_o of_o they_o be_v superior_a to_o other_o but_o both_o of_o they_o equal_a and_o independent_a of_o each_o other_o in_o regard_n of_o subjection_n mr._n rutherf_n confess_v p._n 294._o that_o congregation_n and_o church_n may_v admonish_v and_o rebuke_v each_o other_o and_o sure_o it_o be_v that_o scripture_n cant._n 8._o 8._o we_o have_v a_o little_a sister_n what_o shall_v we_o do_v for_o she_o do_v show_v that_o church_n ought_v to_o take_v care_n one_o for_o the_o good_a of_o another_o and_o if_o they_o must_v take_v care_n and_o consult_v for_o one_o another_o there_o be_v the_o like_a reason_n that_o they_o shall_v reprove_v and_o admonish_v one_o another_o as_o need_n shall_v require_v now_o when_o one_o church_n do_v so_o practice_v towards_o another_o it_o can_v be_v deny_v but_o here_o be_v the_o same_o thing_n which_o mr._n rutherford_n speak_v of_o first_o a_o rebuke_v second_o a_o rebuke_v perform_v by_o many_o three_o a_o rebuke_v perform_v by_o a_o political_a society_n and_o body_n but_o can_v any_o man_n infer_v from_o hence_o that_o the_o church_n thus_o rebuke_v another_o church_n have_v power_n to_o excommunicate_v that_o other_o church_n i_o suppose_v none_o will_v affirm_v it_o and_o if_o this_o may_v not_o be_v affirm_v i_o do_v not_o see_v how_o rebuke_v perform_v by_o many_o even_o by_o a_o whole_a synod_n can_v be_v any_o sufficient_a ground_n to_o prove_v that_o the_o synod_n have_v power_n to_o excommunicate_v the_o apostle_n and_o elder_n say_v our_o author_n be_v not_o consider_v here_o as_o mere_o preacher_n and_o teacher_n in_o the_o act_n of_o teach_v for_o why_o then_o shall_v they_o not_o be_v formal_o a_o church_n assembly_n if_o they_o be_v a_o assembly_n meet_v for_o preach_v the_o word_n pag._n 411._o 412._o answ_n when_o the_o text_n act_v 15_o do_v mention_n sometime_o the_o multitude_n verse_n 12._o sometime_o the_o brethren_n verse_n 23._o sometime_o the_o whole_a church_n verse_n 22._o beside_o the_o apostle_n and_o elder_n we_o know_v no_o absurdity_n in_o it_o if_o one_o shall_v say_v here_o be_v formal_o a_o church_n and_o a_o church_n assembly_n in_o which_o church-assemble_o the_o apostle_n and_o elder_n be_v teacher_n and_o preacher_n though_o they_o alone_o be_v not_o the_o church_n yet_o though_o we_o think_v here_o be_v a_o church_n and_o a_o church-assemble_o we_o do_v not_o think_v mr._n rutherford_n reason_n do_v prove_v they_o so_o to_o be_v for_o paul_n and_o sâ—las_n be_v preacher_n of_o the_o word_n in_o the_o prison_n at_o philippi_n act_n 16._o and_o at_o marâ—hill_n and_o the_o marketplace_n at_o athens_n act._n 17._o and_o yet_o we_o think_v it_o hard_o to_o infer_v thence_o that_o these_o assembly_n be_v formal_o church_n yea_o but_o say_v our_o author_n the_o exercise_n of_o the_o key_n of_o knowledge_n in_o the_o hear_n of_o a_o multitude_n be_v essential_o a_o act_n of_o preach_v of_o the_o word_n page_n 412._o answ_n this_o be_v very_o true_a indeed_o a_o act_n of_o preach_v the_o word_n it_o must_v needs_o be_v the_o word_n preach_v be_v take_v in_o its_o utmost_a latitude_n but_o be_v not_o avoidable_a and_o always_o a_o church-act_n or_o a_o act_n that_o infallible_o prove_v the_o assembly_n where_o such_o a_o act_n be_v perform_v to_o be_v formal_o a_o church_n this_o be_v the_o thing_n that_o shall_v have_v be_v clear_v or_o else_o the_o thing_n be_v not_o clear_v but_o this_o our_o reverend_a author_n do_v not_o clear_a at_o all_o and_o the_o contrary_n be_v very_o plain_a from_o sundry_a instance_n in_o the_o act_n where_o the_o apostle_n do_v exercise_v the_o key_n of_o knowledge_n in_o the_o hear_n of_o multitude_n in_o sundry_a place_n where_o yet_o for_o all_o this_o there_o be_v not_o forthwith_o any_o church_n and_o therefore_o whereas_o he_o say_v the_o apostle_n and_o elder_n be_v not_o consider_v in_o this_o assembly_n as_o preacher_n and_o teacher_n in_o the_o act_n of_o teach_v because_o then_o the_o assembly_n shall_v have_v be_v formal_o a_o church_n we_o rather_o think_v they_o that_o shall_v consider_v it_o will_v find_v that_o the_o apostle_n do_v and_o other_o elder_n in_o these_o day_n may_v put_v forth_o the_o act_n of_o teach_v and_o preach_v in_o some_o assembly_n suppose_v assembly_n of_o turk_n and_o indian_n and_o yet_o the_o assembly_n not_o thereby_o prove_v to_o be_v church_n chap._n vi_o whether_o the_o power_n of_o synod_n be_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o of_o the_o dependence_n of_o the_o synagogue_n upon_o the_o synedrion_fw-mi at_o jerusalem_n next_o of_o all_o in_o his_o page_n 414_o in_o a_o 16_o the_o objection_n in_o this_o and_o the_o former_a page_n he_o say_v thus_o therefore_o be_v the_o synagogue_n of_o the_o jew_n no_o complete_a church_n because_o all_o the_o ordinance_n of_o god_n can_v be_v perform_v in_o the_o synagogue_n and_o therefore_o be_v the_o jew_n command_v only_o at_o jerusalem_n and_o in_o no_o other_o place_n to_o keep_v the_o passeover_n and_o to_o offer_v offering_n and_o sacrifice_n which_o be_v ordinary_a worship_n but_o there_o be_v not_o any_o worshipper_n sacred_a ordinance_n say_v that_o worthy_a divine_a dr._n ames_n of_o preach_v pray_v sacrament_n etc._n etc._n prescribe_v which_o be_v not_o to_o be_v observe_v in_o every_o congregation_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n and_o then_o he_o subjoin_v mr._n tompsons_n name_n and_o i_o and_o in_o his_o margin_n cite_v the_o answer_n page_z 12_o 13._o and_o further_o say_v in_o the_o objection_n that_o other_o say_v because_o there_o be_v a_o representative_a worship_n of_o sacrifice_v of_o all_o the_o twelve_o tribe_n at_o jerusalem_n therefore_o all_o the_o synagogue_n be_v dependent_a church_n and_o jerusalem_n the_o supreme_a and_o high_a church_n answ_n to_o leave_v what_o be_v allege_v aâ—_n object_v by_o other_o and_o to_o consider_v only_o of_o that_o which_o concern_v ourselves_o because_o the_o synagogue_n in_o israel_n be_v dependent_a on_o the_o great_a synedrion_fw-mi at_o jerusalem_n therefore_o some_o will_v infer_v that_o congregation_n in_o these_o day_n must_v be_v dependent_a on_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o synod_n to_o this_o argument_n we_o be_v endeavour_v to_o give_v answer_n in_o the_o place_n allege_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n where_o we_o show_v that_o the_o synagogue_n may_v be_v dependent_a and_o not_o complete_a church_n because_o the_o sacred_a ordinance_n of_o god_n which_o be_v of_o ordinary_a use_n can_v not_o be_v perform_v in_o they_o but_o congregation_n in_o these_o day_n complete_a and_o entire_a as_o have_v liberty_n to_o enjoy_v the_o use_n of_o all_o the_o ordinance_n within_o themselves_o for_o both_o which_o particular_n we_o allege_v the_o testimony_n and_o word_n of_o dr._n ames_n the_o sum_n be_v thus_o much_o if_o the_o synagogue_n can_v not_o enjoy_v all_o the_o ordinance_n within_o themselves_o and_o our_o congregation_n may_v then_o though_o the_o synogogue_n be_v dependent_a on_o the_o synedrion_fw-mi at_o jerusalem_n it_o will_v not_o follow_v that_o congregation_n in_o these_o day_n must_v be_v dependent_a on_o synod_n this_o be_v the_o 〈◊〉_d of_o that_o which_o be_v say_v in_o the_o answer_n in_o the_o place_n which_o mr._n rutherford_n allege_v now_o what_o answer_n do_v he_o return_v to_o this_o passage_n true_o none_o at_o all_o that_o i_o can_v find_v none_o will_v you_o say_v how_o can_v that_o be_v do_v he_o not_o propound_v it_o in_o his_o 16_o the_o objection_n as_o that_o which_o he_o undertake_v to_o answer_v i_o confess_v he_o do_v so_o but_o nevertheless_o all_o that_o he_o have_v set_v down_o for_o
whereas_o in_o the_o place_n we_o have_v be_v speak_v of_o he_o say_v antioch_n the_o great_a part_n of_o they_o be_v against_o the_o truth_n do_v lose_v their_o jus_o their_o right_n to_o determine_v for_o which_o as_o we_o have_v hear_v he_o give_v this_o reason_n because_o christ_n have_v give_v no_o right_a and_o power_n to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n but_o for_o it_o yet_o now_o we_o see_v he_o grant_v distinction_n between_o ability_n and_o right_n and_o say_v a_o presbyterial_a church_n may_v still_o retain_v this_o latter_a of_o their_o right_n even_o then_o when_o they_o want_v the_o other_o of_o ability_n which_o two_o saying_n whether_o they_o do_v perfect_o agree_v and_o whether_o in_o the_o latter_a of_o they_o he_o do_v not_o plain_o come_v up_o to_o we_o against_o who_o he_o have_v be_v dispute_v in_o the_o former_a i_o leave_v it_o to_o the_o wise_a in_o heart_n and_o especial_o to_o himself_o to_o consider_v for_o for_o my_o part_n i_o must_v confess_v that_o these_o two_o say_n a_o presbyterial_a church_n as_o antioch_n may_v have_v right_a jus_o to_o judge_v a_o point_n to_o the_o judge_v whereof_o they_o may_v want_v ability_n and_o antioch_n a_o presbyterial_a church_n want_v ability_n do_v thereby_o lose_v their_o right_n or_o jus_o to_o determine_v the_o point_n these_o two_o i_o say_v be_v such_o say_n as_o be_v not_o easy_a for_o i_o to_o reconcile_v last_o if_o it_o be_v say_v our_o brother_n do_v not_o deny_v unto_o antioch_n or_o a_o church_n in_o error_n all_o power_n simple_o to_o determine_v but_o only_o to_o determine_v tali_fw-la mode_n that_o be_v to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n for_o his_o word_n be_v they_o lose_v their_o jus_o their_o right_a eatenus_fw-la in_o so_o far_o i_o answer_v he_o have_v such_o a_o word_n indeed_o as_o eatenus_fw-la in_o so_o far_o but_o if_o any_o shall_v say_v he_o mean_v no_o more_o in_o this_o dispute_n but_o only_o that_o such_o a_o church_n have_v no_o right_a to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n i_o conceive_v that_o he_o that_o shall_v so_o say_v shall_v therein_o impute_v some_o fault_n unto_o our_o brother_n even_o the_o fault_n of_o wrest_a mr._n tompsons_n tenent_n and_o i_o and_o suggest_v against_o we_o unto_o his_o reader_n as_o if_o we_o have_v hold_v such_o a_o thing_n as_o we_o never_o write_v nor_o think_v for_o it_o be_v plain_a that_o our_o brother_n in_o his_o pag._n 424._o be_v dispute_v against_o we_o for_o he_o say_v that_o we_o teach_v the_o church_n of_o antioch_n have_v jus_o power_n to_o judge_n and_o determine_v the_o controversy_n but_o because_o of_o the_o difficulty_n have_v not_o light_a to_o judge_v thereof_o and_o set_v down_o master_n tompsons_n name_n and_o i_o as_o the_o man_n that_o so_o teach_v in_o answer_n page_n 42._o and_o a_o few_o line_n after_o he_o say_v i_o think_v the_o brethren_n err_v in_o this_o to_o teach_v that_o antioch_n have_v power_n to_o determine_v the_o controversy_n act._n 15._o and_o then_o he_o give_v two_o reason_n for_o the_o contrary_n so_o that_o it_o be_v manifest_a that_o he_o intend_v this_o dispute_n against_o we_o now_o what_o have_v we_o say_v in_o this_o matter_n have_v we_o deliver_v any_o such_o thing_n that_o antioch_n have_v right_a to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n let_v the_o answer_n be_v view_v in_o the_o place_n which_o he_o allege_v viz._n page_n 42._o and_o i_o be_o sure_a no_o such_o gross_a tenent_n will_v be_v there_o find_v no_o nor_o any_o where_o else_o in_o our_o writing_n that_o which_o we_o have_v say_v be_v this_o that_o antioch_n have_v right_a to_o have_v determine_v the_o matter_n if_o ability_n have_v serve_v thereto_o but_o for_o right_a to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n we_o never_o speak_v one_o word_n that_o sound_v that_o way_n our_o brother_n therefore_o intend_v this_o dispute_n against_o we_o and_o plain_o express_v so_o much_o and_o our_o tenent_n be_v no_o other_o than_o as_o i_o have_v say_v it_o must_v therefore_o needs_o follow_v that_o his_o intendment_n be_v that_o antioch_n have_v no_o right_a to_o determine_v that_o matter_n but_o for_o right_a to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n he_o can_v confute_v such_o a_o tenent_n as_o we_o we_o never_o have_v deliver_v any_o such_o thing_n but_o he_o must_v withal_o be_v culpable_a of_o manifest_a mistake_n and_o misreporting_a of_o we_o to_o the_o world_n and_o we_o be_v and_o must_v be_v slow_a to_o believe_v that_o a_o man_n of_o such_o worth_n will_v willing_o do_v we_o such_o wrong_n it_o remain_v therefore_o that_o right_o to_o determine_v and_o not_o right_a to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n be_v the_o thing_n which_o he_o opposite_a as_o we_o and_o therefore_o it_o be_v that_o in_o this_o sense_n and_o meaning_n i_o have_v here_o apply_v my_o answer_n the_o 〈…〉_z thus_o much_o that_o antioch_n have_v right_a to_o determine_v against_o the_o 〈…〉_z that_o may_v soon_o be_v confute_v but_o the_o tenent_n be_v none_o of_o we_o that_o 〈…〉_z to_o determine_v be_v indeed_o our_o tenent_n and_o whether_o this_o be_v confute_v 〈…〉_z let_v the_o wise_a and_o judicious_a consider_v chap._n ix_o whether_o the_o congregationall_a way_n or_o the_o presbyterial_a do_v make_v the_o gospel_n more_o difficultive_a than_o the_o law_n of_o excommunication_n by_o a_o church_n that_o have_v only_o three_o elder_n and_o of_o do_v thing_n sudden_o in_o the_o latter_a end_n of_o his_o page_n 424_o meaning_n mr_n tâ—mpson_n and_o i_o and_o allege_v page_n 17_o 18._o of_o the_o answer_n he_o write_v that_o we_o say_v our_o opposite_n do_v much_o judaize_v in_o that_o they_o multiply_v appeal_n upon_o appeal_n from_o a_o congregation_n to_o a_o classis_fw-la then_o to_o a_o synod_n then_o to_o a_o national_n assembly_n then_o to_o a_o oecâ—â—â—â—nicke_a council_n and_o this_o way_n while_o the_o world_n endure_v cause_n be_v never_o determine_v and_o synod_n can_v always_o be_v have_v even_o as_o in_o jerusalem_n the_o supreme_a judicature_n be_v far_o remote_a from_o all_o proselyte_n as_o from_o the_o eunuch_n of_o ethiopia_n act._n 8._o and_o from_o the_o remote_o part_n of_o the_o holy_a land_n but_o god_n have_v provide_v better_a for_o we_o in_o the_o new_a testament_n where_o every_o congregation_n which_o be_v at_o hand_n may_v decide_v the_o controversy_n and_o then_o page_z 425._o he_o subjoin_v his_o answer_n answ_n though_o i_o deny_v not_o but_o some_o of_o the_o thing_n here_o allege_v be_v write_v by_o we_o in_o the_o paâ—â—â—_n name_v yet_o that_o they_o be_v write_v for_o the_o purpose_n which_o our_o brother_n express_v viz._n to_o show_v that_o our_o brethren_n of_o the_o opposite_a judgement_n do_v much_o judaize_v that_o i_o do_v utter_o deny_v for_o the_o place_n be_v view_v will_v plain_o witness_v that_o we_o bring_v the_o thing_n allege_v for_o another_o end_n viz._n to_o show_v whether_o the_o way_n that_o be_v call_v independency_n do_v make_v the_o people_n as_o some_o have_v think_v of_o it_o more_o defective_a and_o improvident_a than_o their_o law_n for_o this_o be_v object_v against_o that_o way_n we_o in_o answer_n thereto_o do_v show_v by_o sundry_a particular_n that_o it_o be_v not_o that_o way_n that_o be_v just_o culpable_a in_o this_o respect_n but_o the_o way_n of_o our_o brethren_n of_o the_o other_o judgement_n one_o way_n on_o the_o one_o side_n make_v the_o state_n of_o christian_n in_o these_o day_n in_o some_o thing_n equal_a to_o the_o jew_n and_o in_o other_o thing_n more_o excellent_a and_o on_o the_o other_o side_n the_o way_n of_o our_o brethren_n make_v our_o condition_n in_o many_o thing_n more_o defective_a than_o be_v the_o condition_n of_o the_o jew_n so_o that_o not_o judayze_a but_o make_v our_o condition_n more_o defective_a than_o the_o jew_n be_v the_o thing_n which_o we_o here_o note_v in_o the_o doctrine_n of_o our_o brethren_n nor_o do_v i_o see_v how_o our_o brother_n in_o his_o answer_n do_v free_a their_o doctrine_n and_o way_n from_o be_v just_o culpable_a in_o this_o respect_n if_o we_o have_v intend_v the_o thing_n which_o he_o report_v we_o will_v never_o have_v use_v such_o a_o reason_n as_o he_o true_o report_v we_o to_o use_v viz._n that_o by_o appeal_n upon_o appeal_n cause_n according_a to_o our_o brethren_n way_n may_v be_v so_o protract_v as_o never_o to_o be_v determine_v nor_o end_v for_o this_o reason_n have_v neither_o strength_n nor_o colour_n of_o strength_n for_o such_o a_o purpose_n as_o he_o say_v we_o bring_v it_o for_o inasmuch_o as_o it_o be_v well_o know_v that_o the_o jew_n have_v a_o supreme_a judicatory_a for_o the_o final_a end_n of_o cause_n among_o they_o and_o therefore_o to_o say_v that_o our_o brethren_n do_v judaize_v and_o then_o to_o give_v that_o for_o a_o
within_o itself_o either_o therefore_o a_o congregation_n with_o only_a three_o elder_n be_v no_o politic_a body_n of_o christ_n or_o else_o it_o must_v have_v power_n of_o church_n government_n within_o itself_o beside_o if_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n ordinary_a intensive_a be_v according_a to_o the_o entire_a essence_n of_o a_o ministerial_a church_n be_v as_o complete_a and_o perfect_a in_o one_o single_a congregation_n as_o in_o a_o provincial_n national_n or_o catholic_a church_n as_o our_o author_n say_v it_o be_v p._n 307._o it_o be_v then_o a_o marvel_n why_o such_o a_o congregation_n have_v only_o three_o elder_n may_v not_o have_v power_n to_o excommunicate_v last_o his_o word_n be_v express_v page_n 338._o where_o there_o be_v not_o many_o church_n consociate_v than_o ordination_n and_o excommunication_n may_v be_v do_v by_o one_o single_a congregation_n if_o therefore_o a_o congregation_n have_v not_o above_o three_o elder_n yet_o be_v not_o consociate_v with_o other_o church_n it_o may_v lawful_o excommunicate_v by_o his_o own_o grant_n for_o decide_v question_n that_o concern_v many_o church_n if_o they_o decide_v they_o no_o further_o but_o only_o as_o they_o concern_v themselves_o this_o be_v no_o put_v a_o private_a sickle_n in_o a_o common_a and_o public_a harvest_n but_o a_o meddle_v with_o matter_n only_o so_o far_o as_o they_o do_v concern_v themselves_o second_o he_o say_v all_o appeal_n without_o warrant_n from_o christ_n will_n we_o condemn_v as_o the_o abuse_n of_o appeal_v to_o a_o court_n which_o be_v know_v shall_v never_o be_v page_z 425._o answ_n if_o appeal_v without_o warrant_n from_o christ_n will_v be_v condemn_v why_o be_v we_o not_o tell_v what_o appeal_v they_o be_v that_o have_v the_o warrant_v of_o christ_n will_n and_o what_o appeal_v have_v not_o for_o such_o a_o general_a word_n aâ—_n this_o of_o the_o warrant_n of_o christ_n will_n without_o some_o further_a and_o more_o particular_a explication_n do_v leave_v the_o matter_n as_o dark_a as_o it_o be_v before_o if_o the_o meaning_n be_v that_o only_o such_o appeal_v be_v unwarrantable_a as_o be_v make_v to_o a_o court_n which_o be_v know_v shall_v never_o be_v and_o that_o all_o other_o be_v warrantable_a than_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o appeal_v to_o general_a counsel_n and_o all_o other_o court_n except_o only_o from_o a_o general_a council_n be_v warrantable_a for_o who_o do_v certain_o know_v that_o a_o general_a council_n will_v never_o be_v and_o so_o by_o this_o mean_v the_o class_n 〈◊〉_d synod_n and_o the_o national_n church_n be_v all_o deprive_v of_o supremacy_n and_o independency_n of_o jurisdiction_n as_o well_o as_o the_o congregation_n three_o he_o say_v antioch_n appeal_v to_o a_o synod_n 200_o mile_n distant_a as_o our_o brethren_n say_v be_v no_o judaize_v but_o that_o which_o paul_n and_o the_o apostle_n be_v guilty_a of_o as_o well_o as_o we_o answ_n whether_o antioch_n and_o jerusalem_n be_v 200_o mile_n distant_a or_o no_o as_o we_o have_v never_o affirm_v so_o much_o so_o i_o will_v not_o stand_v now_o to_o inquire_v but_o this_o i_o stand_v upon_o that_o no_o scripture_n do_v witness_v that_o antioch_n do_v appeal_v to_o jerusalem_n in_o the_o point_n of_o jurisdiction_n about_o which_o our_o question_n do_v lie_v if_o they_o do_v appeal_v to_o they_o for_o a_o doctrinal_a decision_n or_o determination_n of_o the_o question_n that_o nothing_o hinder_v our_o cause_n who_o do_v not_o deny_v such_o a_o doctrinal_a power_n in_o synod_n but_o their_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n be_v the_o thing_n that_o shall_v be_v prove_v last_o if_o this_o example_n of_o antioch_n do_v prove_v that_o there_o may_v be_v and_o aught_o to_o be_v appeal_n from_o congregation_n to_o synod_n though_o those_o synod_n be_v 200_o mile_n distant_a then_o that_o which_o we_o say_v in_o the_o answer_n be_v here_o confess_v to_o be_v true_a viz._n that_o according_a to_o our_o brethren_n judgement_n the_o state_n of_o the_o church_n in_o point_n of_o discipline_n be_v as_o defective_a and_o burdensome_a in_o the_o time_n of_o the_o gospel_n as_o it_o be_v in_o the_o day_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n for_o as_o then_o the_o supreme_a judicatory_a at_o jerusalem_n be_v many_o mile_n distant_a from_o such_o as_o dwell_v in_o the_o further_a part_n of_o the_o holy_a land_n and_o special_o from_o the_o proselyte_n that_o dwell_v in_o other_o country_n so_o here_o our_o author_n seem_v to_o yield_v that_o in_o these_o day_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n there_o must_v or_o may_v be_v appeal_n to_o synod_n though_o they_o be_v 200_o mile_n distant_a i_o hope_v then_o if_o other_o blame_v our_o way_n for_o make_v the_o gospel_n as_o defective_a and_o improvident_a as_o the_o law_n or_o more_o defective_a than_o it_o yet_o this_o our_o brother_n will_v not_o do_v so_o but_o on_o the_o contrary_n will_v acknowledge_v for_o we_o and_o with_o we_o that_o the_o way_n which_o himself_o plead_v for_o be_v more_o just_o culpable_a in_o this_o respect_n four_o he_o say_v matter_n concern_v many_o church_n must_v be_v handle_v by_o many_o answ_n this_o may_v be_v grant_v in_o a_o safe_a sense_n without_o any_o prejudice_n at_o all_o unto_o our_o cause_n for_o we_o be_v well_o content_a that_o so_o far_o as_o they_o concern_v many_o they_o may_v be_v handle_v by_o many_o so_o that_o each_o congregation_n may_v have_v liberty_n to_o deal_v in_o they_o so_o far_o as_o they_o concern_v themselves_o and_o thus_o you_o have_v all_o which_o mr._n rutherford_n have_v bring_v against_o that_o passage_n of_o we_o wherein_o we_o say_v it_o be_v not_o our_o way_n but_o they_o that_o do_v make_v the_o gospel_n more_o defective_a than_o the_o law_n instead_o whereof_o he_o be_v please_v to_o make_v we_o say_v that_o they_o do_v judaize_v but_o for_o eleer_v their_o way_n from_o that_o which_o we_o object_n against_o the_o same_o or_o for_o convince_a out_o way_n to_o be_v guilty_a thereof_o as_o by_o some_o have_v be_v object_v which_o be_v the_o thing_n in_o question_n in_o the_o place_n by_o he_o allege_v for_o aught_o i_o perceive_v there_o be_v nothing_o in_o the_o four_o particular_n of_o his_o answer_n that_o do_v any_o thing_n avail_v to_o either_o of_o these_o for_o if_o a_o rash_a deliver_v of_o man_n to_o satan_n have_v more_o evil_a in_o it_o then_o speedy_a end_n of_o controversy_n have_v good_a if_o appeal_v without_o warrant_n from_o christ_n will_n be_v unlawful_a if_o antioch_n do_v appeal_v to_o a_o synod_n 200_o mile_n distant_a and_o if_o matter_n concern_v many_o church_n must_v be_v end_v by_o many_o which_o four_o particular_n be_v the_o whole_a substance_n of_o his_o answer_n what_o be_v there_o in_o all_o this_o for_o i_o will_v glad_o apply_v his_o answer_n to_o the_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d the_o thing_n in_o question_n what_o be_v there_o i_o say_v in_o all_o this_o that_o 〈◊〉_d convince_v our_o way_n to_o be_v more_o defective_a than_o the_o way_n under_o the_o old_a testament_n or_o that_o do_v clear_v the_o way_n of_o our_o brethren_n from_o be_v true_o culpable_a thereof_o let_v all_o the_o evil_a that_o can_v be_v find_v in_o rash_a deliver_v man_n to_o satan_n be_v extend_v to_o the_o utmost_a and_o let_v the_o rest_n of_o the_o four_o particular_n be_v grant_v do_v all_o this_o sufficient_o clear_v it_o that_o the_o way_n which_o we_o plead_v for_o be_v more_o defective_a or_o the_o way_n of_o our_o brethren_n more_o perfect_a and_o excellent_a than_o the_o way_n that_o be_v use_v under_o the_o law_n if_o they_o do_v not_o amount_v to_o the_o clear_n of_o this_o they_o do_v not_o come_v up_o to_o clear_v the_o thing_n in_o question_n which_o for_o aught_o i_o perceive_v do_v still_o remain_v as_o it_o be_v notwithstanding_o all_o that_o our_o brother_n here_o bring_v chap._n x._o whether_o the_o necessity_n of_o discipline_n be_v great_a than_o of_o sacrament_n and_o whether_o a_o congregation_n that_o have_v neighbour_n may_v not_o exercise_v entireness_n of_o jurisdiction_n as_o well_o as_o one_o that_o have_v none_o and_o whether_o a_o man_n may_v take_v on_o he_o the_o whole_a ministry_n have_v no_o outward_a call_n thereto_o and_o may_v not_o as_o well_o take_v on_o he_o one_o act_n of_o baptise_v or_o minister_a the_o lord_n supper_n the_o next_o place_n where_o i_o find_v our_o reverend_a brother_n deal_v with_o the_o answer_n be_v in_o page_n 453_o 454._o where_o dispute_v that_o there_o be_v a_o presbyterial_a church_n at_o jerusalem_n he_o say_v it_o be_v object_v by_o we_o allege_v the_o answer_n page_n 6._o that_o if_o a_o church_n in_o a_o island_n by_o divine_a institution_n and_o so_o the_o first_o congregation_n as_o jerusalem_n which_o do_v meet_v in_o solomon_n porch_n have_v once_o a_o entire_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n
no_o elder_n in_o the_o land_n or_o national_a church_n to_o lay_v on_o hand_n now_o have_v our_o word_n be_v deliver_v and_o set_v down_o by_o he_o as_o they_o come_v from_o we_o this_o speech_n and_o passage_n of_o he_o will_v have_v be_v useless_a and_o apparent_o bring_v in_o without_o cause_n for_o to_o what_o purpose_n shall_v he_o bring_v in_o this_o exception_n say_v except_o there_o be_v no_o elder_n in_o the_o land_n etc._n etc._n when_o ourselves_o have_v prevent_v he_o in_o this_o by_o put_v such_o a_o exception_n express_o into_o the_o prohibition_n which_o we_o deduce_v and_o gather_v from_o that_o scripture_n of_o numb_a 8._o 10._o sure_o this_o have_v not_o need_v but_o may_v have_v be_v spare_v if_o our_o word_n have_v be_v full_o relate_v but_o by_o this_o omission_n and_o concealment_n his_o own_o speech_n have_v more_o appearance_n of_o ground_n and_o reason_n in_o it_o than_o otherwise_o it_o will_v have_v have_v and_o our_o apprehension_n do_v not_o appear_v to_o his_o reader_n as_o indeed_o it_o be_v nor_o as_o himself_o receive_v it_o from_o we_o in_o that_o our_o answer_n which_o we_o have_v reason_n to_o take_v somewhat_o unkind_o from_o he_o and_o the_o rather_o because_o it_o be_v not_o only_o once_o but_o twice_o at_o the_o least_o that_o we_o have_v thus_o express_v ourselves_o in_o that_o answer_n once_o in_o the_o word_n which_o i_o have_v here_o above_o repeat_v and_o transcribe_v and_o again_o in_o pag._n 49._o where_o speak_v again_o of_o this_o same_o scripture_n numb_a 8._o v._n 10._o we_o say_v thus_o that_o we_o have_v show_v from_o that_o scripture_n that_o if_o there_o be_v no_o elder_n as_o at_o the_o first_o nor_o any_o that_o can_v convenient_o be_v get_v from_o other_o church_n than_o imposition_n of_o hand_n may_v lawful_o be_v perform_v by_o other_o nevertheless_o though_o we_o have_v thus_o express_v ourselves_o once_o and_o a_o second_o time_n yet_o m._n rutherford_n do_v not_o once_o give_v notice_n hereof_o unto_o his_o reader_n for_o aught_o that_o i_o can_v find_v but_o still_o pass_v by_o these_o word_n of_o borrow_v elder_n from_o other_o church_n do_v take_v advantage_n of_o the_o want_n thereof_o which_o indeed_o be_v not_o want_v in_o our_o church_n which_o he_o deal_v against_o but_o twice_o at_o the_o least_o be_v plain_o express_v therein_o and_o will_v not_o have_v be_v want_v in_o this_o passage_n which_o here_o he_o set_v down_o as_o we_o if_o himself_o have_v not_o conceal_v and_o suppress_v the_o same_o now_o to_o leave_v out_o those_o word_n of_o we_o which_o we_o have_v plain_o express_v two_o several_a time_n at_o the_o least_o and_o then_o to_o make_v advantage_n for_o himself_o against_o we_o for_o want_v thereof_o whether_o this_o be_v not_o such_o measure_n as_o we_o have_v cause_n to_o take_v unkind_o let_v himself_o and_o other_o consider_v the_o three_o particular_a of_o add_v word_n which_o never_o come_v from_o we_o i_o will_v brief_o pass_v over_o because_o it_o be_v of_o less_o moment_n as_o not_o so_o much_o misrepresent_v our_o meaning_n yet_o i_o conceive_v those_o word_n it_o by_o ordination_n be_v not_o to_o be_v tie_v to_o the_o presbytery_n alone_o which_o here_o be_v present_v to_o the_o reader_n as_o we_o be_v not_o at_o all_o to_o be_v find_v in_o our_o writing_n but_o i_o will_v not_o insist_v on_o this_o but_o come_v to_o consider_v of_o his_o answer_n there_o be_v not_o say_v he_o a_o place_n in_o all_o the_o word_n of_o god_n where_o people_n conserve_v ordination_n to_o the_o pastor_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n therefore_o our_o brethren_n flee_v to_o the_o old_a testament_n to_o prove_v it_o from_o the_o levite_n who_o receive_v imposition_n of_o band_n from_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n answ_n we_o have_v give_v a_o reason_n why_o no_o such_o scripture_n can_v be_v expect_v in_o the_o new_a testament_n viz._n because_o in_o those_o time_n elder_n be_v not_o want_v for_o there_o be_v the_o apostle_n and_o apostolic_a man_n who_o be_v elder_n in_o all_o church_n and_o say_v we_o we_o do_v willing_o grant_v that_o where_o elder_n be_v not_o want_v imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v to_o be_v perform_v by_o the_o elder_n ans_fw-fr p._n 49._o now_o for_o our_o brethren_n to_o require_v of_o we_o a_o example_n of_o imposition_n of_o hand_n perform_v without_o elder_n in_o the_o apostle_n time_n in_o which_o time_n there_o be_v elder_n to_o be_v have_v this_o we_o think_v to_o be_v unreasonable_a first_o it_o be_v our_o opinion_n that_o when_o elder_n be_v to_o be_v have_v imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v not_o to_o be_v perform_v without_o those_o elder_n but_o by_o they_o moreover_o if_o it_o be_v such_o a_o disparagement_n to_o our_o cause_n that_o the_o scripture_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n afford_v no_o example_n of_o imposition_n of_o hand_n by_o the_o people_n how_o will_v mr._n rutherford_n free_a his_o own_o way_n from_o another_o objection_n which_o we_o think_v as_o sore_o and_o weighty_a against_o the_o same_o as_o this_o which_o they_o think_v of_o so_o much_o weight_n against_o we_o the_o objection_n i_o mean_v be_v this_o that_o there_o be_v not_o any_o place_n in_o all_o the_o scripture_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n where_o ordinary_a pastor_n or_o elder_n impose_v hand_n on_o ordinary_a pastor_n or_o elder_n but_o all_o the_o example_n in_o scripture_n concern_v this_o matter_n be_v such_o where_o either_o the_o person_n impose_v or_o the_o person_n on_o who_o hand_n be_v impose_v or_o both_o be_v officer_n of_o extraordinary_a note_n and_o degree_n such_o as_o now_o be_v not_o extant_a in_o the_o church_n but_o be_v cease_v long_o again_o not_o that_o i_o deny_v but_o a_o argument_n may_v be_v take_v from_o those_o example_n for_o imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o these_o day_n but_o the_o thing_n i_o stand_v upon_o be_v this_o that_o no_o example_n can_v be_v give_v from_o scripture_n direct_o parallel_v to_o the_o way_n which_o our_o brethren_n in_o these_o day_n do_v practice_v and_o allow_v but_o some_o dissonancy_n will_v be_v find_v therein_o from_o their_o way_n as_o well_o and_o perhaps_o as_o much_o as_o from_o the_o way_n of_o imposition_n of_o hand_n perform_v by_o the_o people_n in_o some_o case_n let_v they_o tell_v we_o of_o act._n 6._o v._n 6._o and_o 14._o 23._o and_o 1._o tim._n 5._o 22._o and_o we_o answer_v the_o person_n impose_v hand_n in_o those_o place_n be_v apostle_n and_o evangelist_n such_o as_o our_o brethren_n be_v not_o nor_o do_v so_o account_v themselves_o let_v they_o name_n act._n 13._o 3._o and_o 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o and_o we_o answer_v the_o person_n on_o who_o hand_n be_v there_o lay_v be_v the_o like_a even_a apostle_n and_o evangelist_n whatever_o the_o imposer_n be_v and_o therefore_o neither_o will_n these_o place_n perfect_o suit_v the_o case_n so_o that_o if_o we_o can_v give_v no_o example_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n of_o imposition_n of_o hand_n perform_v in_o some_o case_n by_o the_o people_n we_o think_v mr._n rutherford_n and_o out_o brethren_n of_o his_o way_n may_v be_v favourable_a to_o we_o for_o their_o own_o sake_n yet_o for_o the_o justification_n of_o our_o way_n and_o for_o further_a answer_n to_o this_o passage_n of_o mr._n rutherford_n we_o have_v this_o to_o say_v further_o that_o a_o example_n in_o the_o old_a testament_n of_o a_o practice_n not_o abolish_v in_o the_o new_a as_o ceremonial_a typical_a or_o of_o some_o peculiar_a reason_n special_o concern_v those_o time_n and_o people_n but_o of_o moral_a equity_n and_o reason_n such_o a_o example_n we_o think_v a_o sufficient_a warrant_n unto_o we_o for_o the_o like_a practice_n upon_o the_o like_a occasion_n in_o these_o day_n this_o i_o think_v mr_n rutherford_n must_v acknowledge_v for_o else_o he_o shall_v loose_v many_o argument_n which_o he_o frequent_o use_v in_o this_o treatise_n from_o the_o example_n of_o asa_n hezekiah_n josiah_n and_o other_o in_o the_o old_a testament_n for_o the_o prove_v of_o thing_n to_o be_v practise_v in_o the_o new_a and_o else_o himself_o and_o we_o all_o shall_v loose_v the_o argument_n for_o pedobaptisme_n which_o be_v take_v from_o circumcision_n yea_o and_o which_o be_v more_o if_o it_o be_v not_o thus_o the_o apostle_n argue_v will_v not_o be_v strong_a who_o do_v frequent_o argue_v from_o the_o example_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n to_o confirm_v and_o prove_v truth_n and_o virtue_n and_o to_o reprove_v and_o to_o condemn_v the_o contraâ—y_n in_o the_o new_a to_o instance_n in_o no_o more_o but_o 1_o cor._n 9_o 10._o 2._o heb._n 3._o 24._o which_o example_n together_o with_o that_o say_n rom._n 15._o 4._o whatsoever_o be_v write_v in_o former_a time_n be_v write_v for_o our_o learning_n and_o many_o more_o that_o may_v be_v
society_n to_o end_n in_o monarchy_n whether_o will_v it_o not_o follow_v that_o the_o government_n of_o church_n must_v so_o end_v as_o well_o as_o that_o congregation_n must_v depend_v on_o the_o government_n of_o synod_n because_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n teach_v a_o communion_n in_o government_n to_o other_o society_n and_o whether_o the_o multitude_n of_o grecian_n and_o hebrew_n who_o châ—se_v the_o seven_o deacon_n acts._n 6._o be_v two_o congregation_n or_o one_o only_a page_n 159._o chap._n 21._o whether_o congregation_n may_v be_v excommunicate_v by_o class_n and_o synod_n by_o virtue_n of_o those_o word_n mat._n 18._o tell_v the_o church_n as_o contain_v a_o rule_n and_o remedy_n for_o all_o offence_n or_o at_o the_o least_o a_o church_n remedy_n for_o the_o offence_n of_o church_n and_o church_n member_n and_o if_o yea_o whether_o it_o will_v not_o thereupon_o follow_v that_o a_o national_n church_n must_v have_v the_o benefit_n of_o this_o remedy_n as_o well_o as_o other_o and_o so_o have_v no_o independency_n of_o jurisdiction_n within_o itself_o but_o be_v subject_n to_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o general_n counsel_n which_o yet_o mr._n rutherford_n do_v deny_v page_n 164._o chap._n 22._o when_o the_o supreme_a magistrate_n be_v a_o profess_a enemy_n to_o religion_n whether_o then_o it_o be_v likely_a and_o usual_a that_o the_o great_a part_n of_o the_o people_n be_v sincere_o religious_a and_o whether_o when_o the_o great_a part_n be_v enemy_n with_o their_o magistrate_n it_o be_v then_o the_o duty_n of_o a_o few_o that_o be_v sincere_a to_o assemble_v in_o a_o national_n synod_n and_o there_o to_o enter_v into_o a_o national_n covenant_n and_o also_o to_o enjoin_v the_o same_o unto_o that_o great_a part_n page_n 170._o chap._n 23._o whether_o the_o word_n church_n be_v not_o give_v to_o a_o single_a congregation_n and_o whether_o a_o congregation_n be_v a_o company_n or_o church-meeting_n only_o for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n and_o not_o for_o any_o other_o spiritual_a duty_n and_o whether_o the_o divers_a duty_n 1._o of_o word_n and_o sacrament_n 2._o of_o discipline_n etc._n etc._n must_v needs_o argue_v divers_a church_n page_n 175._o chap._n 24_o whether_o those_o child_n of_o israel_n numb_a 8._o 10._o who_o lay_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n be_v elder_n by_o office_n and_o as_o so_o consider_v do_v lay_v on_o their_o hand_n and_o whether_o this_o scripture_n do_v not_o prove_v that_o where_o there_o be_v no_o elder_n to_o be_v have_v there_o some_o principal_a member_n though_o no_o elder_n by_o office_n may_v impose_v hand_n on_o church-officer_n page_n 180_o chap._n 25._o whether_o a_o minister_n call_v consist_v in_o election_n or_o imposition_n of_o hand_n and_o whether_o of_o these_o be_v great_a and_o whether_o be_v prior_n or_o posterior_n whether_o 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o acts._n 6_o 2_o 3_o 4._o acts._n 13._o 1_o 2_o 3._o do_v prove_v that_o the_o minister_n call_v consist_v in_o imposition_n of_o hand_n by_o the_o presbeterie_n and_o that_o such_o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v not_o a_o consummatory_n rite_n or_o benedictory_n sign_n also_o whether_o rom._n 10._o 15._o do_v prove_v that_o a_o man_n can_v be_v a_o minister_n except_o some_o presbytery_n ordain_v he_o before_o the_o people_n choose_v he_o and_o whether_o otherwise_o the_o people_n do_v send_v a_o minister_n to_o themselves_o and_o whether_o the_o people_n of_o god_n may_v not_o as_o well_o discern_v a_o man_n fitness_n to_o be_v ordain_v as_o his_o fitness_n to_o be_v elect_v page_n 196._o chap._n 26._o whether_o the_o epistle_n to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n wherein_o there_o be_v contain_v rule_n of_o direction_n in_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n do_v prove_v that_o this_o action_n may_v not_o in_o any_o case_n be_v perform_v by_o non-officer_n but_o must_v be_v perform_v only_o by_o presbytery_n and_o whether_o the_o argument_n do_v not_o make_v as_o strong_o for_o the_o appropriate_a of_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n to_o the_o prelate_n as_o to_o the_o presbytery_n and_o do_v not_o as_o well_o exclude_v the_o presbytery_n from_o meddle_v therein_o as_o exclude_v the_o people_n page_n 206._o to_o the_o christian_a reader_n in_o the_o year_n 1643._o there_o come_v forth_o a_o treatise_n against_o independency_n under_o the_o name_n of_o my_o reverend_n and_o learned_a brother_n mr._n charles_n herle_n the_o pastor_n of_o winwick_n in_o lancashire_n this_o treatise_n because_o it_o seem_v to_o be_v write_v with_o such_o a_o candid_a and_o peaceable_a spirit_n as_o may_v witness_v for_o its_o author_n that_o the_o thing_n he_o aim_v at_o therein_o be_v mere_o the_o disquisition_n of_o the_o truth_n and_o because_o the_o author_n thereof_o be_v many_o year_n ago_o of_o my_o reverend_a brother_n mr._n tompsons_n acquaintance_n and_o i_o therefore_o we_o think_v it_o may_v not_o be_v in_o vain_a if_o we_o shall_v love_o communicate_v to_o the_o learned_a author_n such_o apprehension_n of_o we_o whereby_o we_o be_v detain_v from_o concur_v with_o his_o judgement_n in_o the_o principal_a question_n dispute_v in_o the_o say_a treatise_n and_o therefore_o in_o the_o latter_a end_n of_o the_o same_o year_n there_o come_v forth_o a_o small_a script_n under_o our_o name_n in_o way_n of_o a_o brotherly_a answer_n to_o that_o his_o love_a and_o learned_a treatise_n against_o this_o answer_n mr._n samuel_n rutherford_n a_o learned_a writer_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n have_v allege_v and_o publish_v many_o objection_n exception_n and_o answer_n in_o his_o book_n entitle_v the_o due_a right_n of_o presbytery_n i_o may_v call_v they_o many_o because_o in_o that_o treatise_n of_o his_o there_o be_v no_o less_o than_o 24_o or_o 25_o several_a place_n wherein_o he_o bring_v up_o by_o name_n the_o say_a answer_n dispute_v against_o sundry_a passage_n therein_o as_o if_o they_o be_v not_o sound_a which_o passage_n if_o they_o be_v indeed_o erroneous_a and_o unsound_a be_v a_o great_a many_o to_o be_v contain_v and_o find_v in_o so_o small_a a_o work_n the_o whole_a book_n as_o it_o be_v now_o print_v contain_v in_o it_o 30._o leaf_n so_o that_o the_o leaf_n in_o the_o book_n be_v not_o much_o more_o than_o the_o place_n therein_o which_o this_o learned_a writer_n do_v object_n against_o which_o be_v consider_v i_o think_v it_o therefore_o needful_a to_o peruse_v and_o weigh_v as_o the_o lord_n shall_v help_v the_o several_a place_n of_o his_o forementioned_a treatise_n wherein_o he_o deal_v against_o the_o say_a answer_n and_o have_v so_o do_v i_o here_o present_a my_o apprehension_n to_o public_a view_n leave_v the_o prudent_a and_o judicious_a reader_n to_o consider_v and_o judge_v whether_o this_o reverend_a and_o learned_a brother_n have_v sufficient_o overthrow_v or_o weak'n_v the_o say_a answer_n or_o whether_o the_o same_o do_v not_o still_o remain_v agreeable_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o truth_n notwithstanding_o his_o objection_n against_o the_o same_o or_o such_o answer_n 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for_o author_n of_o this_o part_n of_o the_o objection_n he_o subjoin_v my_o name_n and_o answer_v to_o mr._n herle_v cap._n 2._o pag._n 13_o 14._o answ_n when_o he_o be_v discourse_v of_o doubt_n concern_v that_o scripture_n math_n 18._o tell_v the_o church_n i_o know_v no_o reason_n why_o he_o shall_v bring_v those_o word_n of_o i_o at_o such_o a_o time_n or_o for_o such_o a_o purpose_n for_o though_o i_o do_v acknowledge_v that_o i_o write_v the_o word_n which_o he_o have_v set_v down_o or_o such_o like_a in_o the_o place_n by_o he_o allege_v yet_o that_o they_o be_v bring_v by_o i_o for_o such_o purpose_n as_o he_o do_v report_n viz._n for_o the_o clear_n of_o doubt_n concern_v the_o meaning_n of_o math._n 18_o 17._o that_o i_o do_v utter_o deny_v he_o that_o shall_v look_v upon_o the_o chapter_n and_o page_n allege_v will_v find_v that_o i_o do_v not_o there_o meddle_v at_o all_o
proper_o find_v in_o such_o assembly_n i_o meâ—ne_v in_o general_a council_n unto_o who_o as_o have_v no_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n there_o must_v be_v no_o appeal_n at_o all_o to_o conclude_v this_o chapter_n when_o we_o do_v inquire_v about_o power_n of_o appeal_n and_o unto_o what_o court_v appeal_n must_v be_v bring_v our_o way_n be_v not_o to_o seek_v for_o such_o â—_z as_o can_v err_v for_o such_o we_o shall_v never_o find_v nor_o for_o such_o as_o we_o think_v will_n more_o seldom_o err_v as_o mr._n rutherford_n will_v have_v it_o for_o that_o rule_n be_v also_o subject_a to_o much_o uncertainty_n and_o exception_n as_o have_v be_v already_o declare_v but_o the_o best_a way_n be_v to_o inquire_v where_o the_o lord_n jesus_n have_v place_v the_o power_n of_o the_o last_o and_o final_a censure_v and_o determine_v of_o cause_n and_o when_o that_o be_v find_v therewith_o to_o rest_v content_v and_o as_o for_o synod_n and_o council_n it_o be_v neither_o their_z not_o err_v nor_o 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infer_v thus_o hence_o say_v he_o the_o power_n of_o synod_n be_v only_o by_o way_n of_o counsel_n and_o advise_v answ_n to_o omit_v at_o least_o for_o this_o time_n the_o other_o place_n allege_v in_o his_o margin_n and_o not_o to_o examine_v how_o far_o his_o answer_n reach_v to_o satisfy_v the_o objection_n as_o himself_o have_v propound_v it_o i_o will_v only_o consider_v of_o such_o thing_n as_o do_v direct_o concern_v the_o answer_n for_o that_o be_v the_o scope_n â—ayme_v at_o and_o i_o endeavour_v to_o keep_v close_o thereto_o first_o therefore_o i_o have_v this_o to_o say_v that_o for_o the_o dogmatic_a power_n of_o synod_n above_o congregation_n for_o the_o right_n and_o power_n of_o the_o church_n of_o antioch_n in_o particular_a and_o for_o the_o power_n of_o synod_n to_o be_v only_o by_o way_n of_o counsel_n and_o advise_v there_o be_v not_o in_o the_o chapter_n allege_v so_o much_o as_o one_o word_n about_o any_o one_o of_o those_o 〈◊〉_d either_o one_o way_n or_o another_o so_o that_o i_o can_v but_o marvel_v why_o this_o reverend_a brother_n shall_v allege_v that_o chapter_n for_o such_o a_o purpose_n 2._o although_o in_o another_o place_n of_o the_o answer_n viz._n page_n 4â—_n there_o be_v word_n to_o the_o like_a purpose_n with_o those_o which_o our_o author_n here_o set_v down_o concern_v antioch_n yet_o for_o the_o conclusion_n and_o consequence_n which_o he_o will_v thence_o infer_v viz._n that_o the_o power_n of_o synod_n be_v only_o by_o way_n of_o counsel_n and_o advice_n as_o there_o be_v nothing_o say_v â—_o the_o chapter_n by_o he_o allege_v that_o look_v that_o way_n so_o there_o be_v nothing_o in_o the_o page_n or_o chapter_n where_o aâ—tioch_n be_v speak_v of_o nor_o any_o where_o else_o in_o all_o thâ—_n book_n 〈◊〉_d as_o i_o do_v remember_v that_o can_v any_o way_n serve_v for_o the_o prove_v of_o such_o a_o conclusion_n and_o tenant_n to_o be_v we_o the_o author_n allege_v no_o place_n that_o have_v such_o a_o conclusion_n in_o it_o either_o in_o direct_a word_n or_o by_o just_a consequence_n and_o i_o profess_v that_o for_o my_o part_n i_o do_v not_o know_v of_o any_o such_o 3._o but_o this_o i_o do_v know_v that_o the_o direct_a contrary_n to_o what_o here_o be_v express_v be_v plain_o to_o be_v find_v in_o another_o place_n of_o the_o say_a answer_n viz._n pag._n 7._o where_o there_o be_v these_o word_n viz._n if_o a_o synod_n may_v bâ—_n call_v a_o church_n and_o if_o power_n by_o disputation_n and_o disquisition_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o rule_n and_o then_o to_o command_v obedience_n thereto_o may_v be_v call_v government_n than_o they_o viz._n the_o independent_n as_o they_o be_v call_v do_v admit_v a_o synod_n to_o be_v a_o govern_n church_n for_o the_o power_n here_o mention_v they_o do_v allow_v unto_o synod_n now_o the_o power_n here_o mention_v be_v as_o we_o see_v not_o only_o a_o power_n by_o disputation_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o rule_n but_o also_o a_o power_n to_o command_v obedience_n thereto_o they_o allow_v this_o power_n unto_o synod_n as_o they_o do_v exprest_o say_v that_o they_o do_v i_o know_v not_o why_o our_o brother_n shall_v say_v that_o they_o allow_v unto_o synod_n only_o a_o power_n of_o counsel_n and_o advice_n for_o power_n to_o command_v obedience_n and_o power_n only_o by_o way_n of_o counsel_n and_o advice_n i_o suppose_v be_v not_o the_o same_o and_o if_o they_o be_v not_o i_o know_v not_o how_o this_o report_n in_o this_o particular_a can_v be_v make_v good_a to_o i_o it_o seem_v apparent_a and_o undeniable_a that_o they_o who_o have_v power_n to_o command_v obedience_n have_v more_o then_o only_o a_o power_n to_o counsel_n and_o advise_v and_o they_o who_o have_v only_o this_o latter_a have_v no_o power_n of_o the_o â—ormeâ—_n at_o all_o even_o interiour_o as_o naaman_n servant_n 2_o king_n 5._o have_v power_n to_o counsel_n and_o advise_v their_o master_n and_o yet_o i_o hope_v they_o have_v no_o power_n to_o command_v their_o master_n to_o yield_v obedience_n 4_o suppose_v it_o be_v true_a which_o i_o deny_v not_o that_o the_o answer_n in_o another_o place_n â—hough_o not_o in_o the_o place_n by_o he_o allege_v do_v say_v that_o aâ—tioch_n have_v right_a to_o have_v end_v the_o matter_n among_o themselves_o if_o ability_n have_v serve_v thereto_o and_o that_o by_o reason_n of_o distension_n and_o through_o want_n of_o light_n they_o be_v force_v to_o send_v out_o to_o â—â—rusalem_fw-la for_o help_n must_v it_o needs_o follow_v thereupon_o that_o his_o assembly_n at_o jerusalem_n have_v no_o more_o power_n but_o only_o by_o way_n of_o counsel_n and_o advise_v which_o be_v the_o conclusion_n which_o he_o endeavour_v to_o draw_v â—â—om_n that_o which_o be_v say_v concern_v antioch_n i_o â—â—â—ceive_v there_o be_v no_o necessity_n at_o all_o of_o such_o a_o consequence_n for_o whence_o must_v the_o same_o 〈◊〉_d i_o suppose_v from_o one_o of_o these_o two_o either_o from_o this_o that_o antioch_n be_v suppose_v and_o say_v to_o have_v have_v right_o within_o herself_o or_o else_o from_o this_o that_o jerusalem_n give_v counsel_n and_o advise_v any_o other_o colour_n for_o conclude_v such_o a_o conseptionce_n as_o be_v in_o question_n the_o answer_n afford_v none_o that_o i_o know_v of_o 〈◊〉_d for_o these_o two_o particular_n here_o mention_v they_o be_v both_o insufficient_a for_o such_o 〈◊〉_d purpose_n for_o what_o shall_v hinder_v but_o there_o be_v more_o power_n in_o the_o synod_n of_o â—erusalem_fw-la towards_o they_o of_o antioch_n then_o only_o by_o way_n of_o counsel_n and_o advise_v even_o power_n to_o command_v they_o to_o do_v what_o be_v their_o duty_n though_o antioch_n have_v right_a to_o end_v the_o matter_n themselves_o if_o ability_n serve_v thereto_o do_v right_a in_o one_o person_n or_o assembly_n
circumcision_n but_o do_v also_o rebuke_v they_o for_o another_o fault_n to_o wit_n their_o obtrude_a their_o false_a way_n upon_o the_o soul_n and_o conscience_n of_o other_o and_o for_o their_o wilful_a and_o obstinate_a uphold_v that_o opinion_n and_o raise_v a_o schism_n in_o the_o church_n but_o if_o all_o this_o be_v grant_v his_o purpose_n be_v not_o gain_v thereby_o unless_o he_o will_v prove_v that_o which_o he_o do_v but_o only_o affirm_v to_o wit_n that_o a_o synodical_a rebuke_n be_v not_o specifical_o different_a but_o only_a gradual_o from_o excommunication_n and_o that_o both_o must_v proceed_v from_o the_o same_o power_n which_o yeâ—_n he_o have_v not_o prove_v at_o all_o but_o say_v he_o i_o argue_v thus_o if_o the_o apostle_n do_v not_o only_o in_o a_o doctrinal_a way_n refute_v a_o false_a doctrine_n in_o this_o synod_n but_o also_o in_o church_n way_n and_o by_o a_o juridical_a power_n do_v rebuke_n and_o synodical_o charge_v the_o author_n as_o subverter_n of_o soul_n and_o liar_n than_o they_o do_v not_o only_o use_v a_o mere_a doctrinal_a power_n in_o this_o synod_n but_o also_o a_o juridical_a power_n but_o the_o former_a be_v true_a ergo_fw-la so_o be_v the_o latter_a answ_n with_o favour_n of_o so_o learned_a a_o man_n i_o think_v this_o kind_n of_o argue_v be_v but_o a_o beg_n of_o the_o thing_n in_o question_n and_o a_o prove_v of_o idem_fw-la per_fw-la idem_fw-la for_o if_o the_o synod_n do_v not_o only_o in_o a_o doctrinal_a way_n refute_v a_o false_a doctrine_n but_o also_o by_o a_o juridical_a power_n rebuke_v the_o author_n of_o it_o than_o it_o must_v needs_o be_v true_a indeed_o that_o they_o do_v not_o only_o use_v a_o doctrinal_a power_n but_o also_o a_o juridical_a power_n that_o be_v if_o they_o do_v so_o they_o do_v so_o if_o they_o do_v use_v such_o power_n they_o do_v use_v it_o but_o there_o still_o lie_v the_o question_n whether_o they_o do_v so_o or_o no_o and_o whether_o they_o do_v use_v such_o power_n or_o not_o and_o this_o kind_n of_o argue_v do_v not_o clear_v it_o all_o if_o we_o on_o the_o contrary_n shall_v argue_v thus_o if_o this_o assembly_n do_v not_o put_v forth_o any_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n or_o discipline_n but_o only_o in_o a_o doctrinal_a way_n conâ—ute_v a_o false_a doctrine_n and_o rebuke_v the_o author_n of_o it_o than_o they_o do_v only_o put_v forth_o a_o doctrinal_a power_n and_o not_o any_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n one_o of_o far_o less_o ability_n than_o our_o learned_a author_n will_v soon_o espy_v the_o looseness_n of_o such_o reason_n at_o least_o himself_o we_o doubt_v not_o will_v soon_o espy_v it_o for_o sometime_o we_o hear_v he_o say_v friend_n your_o logic_n be_v naught_o page_n 177._o and_o yet_o be_v it_o speak_v without_o offence_n the_o logic_n which_o himself_o do_v here_o use_n be_v not_o so_o good_a as_o to_o be_v altogether_o without_o fault_n no_o not_o for_o the_o form_n of_o it_o and_o therefore_o we_o do_v not_o see_v how_o any_o thing_n can_v be_v conclude_v thereby_o but_o to_o leave_v this_o mistake_n and_o to_o consider_v of_o the_o matter_n itself_o if_o it_o be_v grant_v that_o this_o assembly_n do_v not_o only_o in_o a_o doctrinal_a way_n consute_n a_o false_a doctrine_n but_o also_o rebuke_v the_o author_n thereof_o must_v it_o need_v follow_v that_o this_o rebuke_v be_v do_v in_o a_o juridical_a way_n be_v there_o no_o rebuke_v of_o offender_n for_o their_o fault_n but_o only_o in_o a_o way_n of_o â—â—â—â—ction_n and_o discipline_n i_o suppose_v much_o need_v not_o to_o be_v say_v for_o the_o clear_n the_o truth_n to_o be_v otherwise_o for_o master_n rutherford_n himself_o confess_v page_n 394._o that_o there_o be_v great_a odds_o to_o do_v one_o and_o the_o same_o action_n material_o and_o to_o do_v the_o same_o formal_o and_o page_n 393._o that_o one_o apostle_n might_n himself_o alone_o have_v rebuke_v these_o obtruder_n of_o circumcision_n which_o be_v so_o it_o follow_v thereupon_o that_o though_o this_o synod_n to_o call_v it_o so_o act._n 15._o have_v a_o doctrinal_a power_n yea_o and_o a_o power_n of_o rebuke_v these_o false_a teacher_n yet_o the_o thing_n that_o he_o from_o thence_o will_v infer_v viz._n their_o power_n of_o rebuke_v in_o a_o juridical_a way_n and_o their_o power_n of_o excommunication_n these_o be_v neither_o of_o they_o prove_v thereby_o for_o if_o it_o shall_v be_v say_v that_o though_o rebuke_v do_v not_o always_o imply_v juridical_a power_n yet_o if_o it_o be_v a_o synod_n that_o do_v rebuke_v than_o the_o power_n here_o speak_v of_o may_v be_v conclude_v thence_o to_o be_v in_o a_o synod_n the_o answer_n be_v that_o this_o will_v not_o help_v at_o all_o because_o this_o be_v nothing_o but_o the_o bring_n in_o of_o another_o efficient_a viz._n the_o synod_n for_o effect_v or_o act_v the_o same_o effect_n now_o master_n rutherford_n confess_v pag._n 393._o that_o he_o do_v not_o fetch_v the_o specification_n of_o this_o rebuke_n and_o of_o those_o decree_n from_o the_o efficient_a cause_n and_o give_v that_o for_o his_o reason_n which_o to_o i_o be_v unanswerable_a to_o wit_n because_o one_o apostle_n might_n himself_o alone_o have_v rebuke_v these_o obtruder_n of_o circumcision_n and_o in_o the_o page_n next_o ensue_v he_o confess_v also_o that_o action_n have_v not_o by_o good_a logic_n their_o total_a specification_n from_o the_o efficient_a cause_n which_o be_v so_o then_o though_o it_o be_v grant_v that_o any_o synod_n may_v and_o that_o this_o synod_n do_v perform_v this_o action_n of_o rebuke_v yet_o the_o thing_n in_o question_n to_o wit_n that_o the_o power_n of_o a_o synod_n be_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o of_o excommunication_n be_v not_o at_o all_o gain_v thereby_o at_o the_o least_o wise_a to_o end_v this_o passage_n this_o i_o may_v say_v that_o if_o this_o reverend_a brother_n will_v be_v true_a to_o his_o own_o principle_n and_o not_o gainsay_v what_o himself_o have_v already_o write_v he_o for_o his_o part_n can_v conclude_v the_o synod_n power_n to_o excommunicate_v from_o this_o argument_n of_o their_o power_n to_o rebuke_v nor_o yet_o from_o any_o other_o argument_n whatsoever_o and_o the_o reason_n be_v because_o he_o do_v elsewhere_o confess_v that_o synod_n be_v not_o to_o excommunicate_v any_o and_o not_o this_o synod_n in_o particular_a to_o excommunicate_v these_o false_a teacher_n but_o to_o remit_v the_o censure_v of_o they_o to_o other_o church_n command_v they_o to_o do_v it_o his_o word_n as_o they_o be_v to_o be_v see_v in_o his_o page_n 413._o be_v these_o viz._n i_o can_v easy_o yield_v that_o there_o be_v no_o necessity_n of_o the_o elicit_v act_n of_o many_o part_n of_o government_n such_o as_o excommunication_n ordination_n admit_v of_o heathen_n profess_v the_o faith_n to_o church-membership_a in_o synod_n provincicall_a national_n or_o ecumenical_a but_o that_o synod_n in_o the_o ease_n of_o neglect_n of_o presbyterycall_a church_n command_v these_o particular_a church_n who_o it_o concern_v to_o do_v their_o duty_n and_o in_o this_o sense_n act._n 15._o be_v to_o remit_v the_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n to_o the_o presbytery_n of_o antioch_n and_o jerusalem_n in_o case_n of_o the_o obstinacy_n of_o these_o obtruder_n of_o circumcision_n in_o which_o word_n we_o have_v two_o thing_n concern_v excommunication_n to_o omit_v other_o particular_n first_o that_o there_o be_v no_o necessity_n that_o synod_n shall_v excommunicate_v any_o but_o only_o command_v the_o church_n to_o do_v their_o duty_n therein_o second_o in_o particular_a concern_v that_o synod_n act_v 15._o that_o they_o be_v to_o remit_v the_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n to_o the_o presbytery_n of_o antioch_n and_o jerusalem_n in_o case_n of_o the_o obstinacy_n of_o these_o obtruder_n or_o circumcision_n which_o particular_n be_v most_o true_a as_o i_o for_o my_o part_n so_o esteem_v of_o they_o it_o follow_v thereupon_o that_o what_o master_n rutherford_n say_v in_o this_o place_n we_o have_v now_o in_o hand_n be_v great_o weaken_v thereby_o for_o how_o both_o these_o can_v stand_v together_o that_o this_o synod_n shall_v have_v power_n not_o only_o to_o rebuke_v but_o to_o excommunicate_v these_o false_a teacher_n and_o yet_o neither_o provincial_n national_n nor_o ecumenical_a synod_n to_o excommunicate_v any_o nor_o this_o synod_n in_o particular_a to_o excommunicate_v these_o false_a teacher_n but_o to_o remit_v the_o censure_n to_o other_o church_n to_o who_o it_o concern_v command_v they_o to_o do_v it_o how_o these_o thing_n i_o say_v can_v stand_v together_o i_o for_o my_o part_n be_o not_o able_a to_o understand_v chap._n four_o of_o the_o dogmatic_a power_n of_o synod_n and_o of_o the_o power_n of_o congregation_n to_o determine_v matter_n among_o themselves_o if_o ability_n serve_v thereto_o in_o his_o page_n 396._o allege_v
mr._n tompsons_n name_n and_o i_o and_o chap._n 1._o page_n 9_o of_o the_o answer_n he_o say_v we_o there_o teach_v that_o there_o be_v a_o power_n of_o clear_n truth_n dogmatical_o &_o that_o ultimate_o where_o the_o controversy_n be_v end_v but_o he_o say_v we_o will_v have_v this_o vltimate_a power_n not_o in_o a_o synod_n only_o but_o also_o in_o a_o congregation_n and_o then_o no_o answer_v three_o thing_n which_o there_o ensue_v answ_n our_o word_n be_v these_o by_o power_n of_o decree_n we_o understand_v power_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o truth_n dogmatical_o for_o the_o word_n translate_v decree_n be_v dogmata_fw-la in_o the_o original_a act._n 16._o 4._o and_o this_o power_n we_o confess_v be_v in_o a_o synod_n though_o not_o all_o in_o a_o synod_n alone_o but_o also_o in_o the_o presbytery_n of_o a_o single_a congregation_n now_o these_o bring_v our_o word_n if_o therefore_o this_o reverend_a brother_n will_v overthrow_v our_o tenent_n in_o this_o particular_a he_o shall_v have_v prove_v that_o there_o be_v not_o any_o power_n as_o all_o in_o the_o presbytery_n of_o a_o single_a congregation_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o truth_n dogmatical_o this_o indeed_o have_v be_v direct_o contrary_a to_o what_o we_o teach_v but_o this_o be_v neither_o prove_v nor_o once_o attempt_v to_o prove_v and_o therefore_o our_o tenent_n herein_o do_v yet_o stand_v good_a for_o any_o thing_n he_o have_v say_v to_o the_o contrary_n and_o no_o marvel_n siâ—h_v the_o express_a word_n of_o the_o text_n do_v witness_v that_o every_o bishop_n have_v power_n and_o be_v boand_v by_o his_o office_n and_o duty_n by_o sound_a doctrine_n both_o to_o exhort_v and_o convince_v gainsayet_n tit._n 1._o 9_o and_o according_o the_o presbytery_n of_o antioch_n do_v labour_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o truth_n in_o that_o controversy_n about_o circumcision_n and_o have_v much_o disputation_n about_o it_o among_o themselves_o afore_o there_o be_v any_o speech_n of_o send_v to_o jerusalem_n for_o help_v act._n 15._o 2._o which_o show_v that_o they_o have_v power_n or_o right_a to_o have_v clear_v the_o matter_n among_o themselves_o if_o ability_n have_v serve_v or_o else_o this_o endeavour_n have_v be_v sinful_a as_o be_v a_o attempt_v to_o do_v that_o whereto_o they_o have_v no_o right_n so_o that_o for_o aught_o we_o yet_o so_o the_o power_n that_o we_o speak_v of_o and_o which_o we_o hold_v to_o be_v in_o the_o presbytery_n of_o a_o congregation_n be_v there_o indeed_o by_o the_o appointment_n of_o the_o lord_n but_o let_v we_o hear_v master_n rutherford_n answer_v first_o say_v he_o they_o seem_v to_o make_v this_o dogmatic_a power_n a_o church_n power_n and_o the_o exercise_n thereof_o formal_o a_o act_n of_o church_n government_n and_o so_o it_o must_v be_v church_n power_n and_o church_n government_n in_o the_o synod_n as_o well_o as_o in_o the_o congregation_n answ_n whence_o do_v it_o seem_v that_o we_o do_v so_o make_v it_o be_v there_o any_o such_o word_n as_o here_o he_o set_v down_o or_o any_o word_n equivalent_a thereto_o or_o do_v the_o place_n make_v any_o mention_n of_o church-power_n and_o church_n government_n at_o all_o or_o be_v there_o so_o much_o as_o one_o word_n that_o look_v that_o way_n if_o there_o be_v let_v our_o brother_n say_v that_o we_o seem_v to_o â—each_v as_o he_o do_v report_n but_o if_o there_o be_v not_o we_o be_v sorry_a he_o shall_v report_v we_o to_o teach_v oâ—_n seem_v to_o teach_v that_o which_o to_o our_o remembrance_n we_o never_o say_v nor_o think_v and_o sure_o it_o be_v we_o have_v express_o say_v the_o direct_a contrary_n in_o page_n 7_o the_o page_n next_o save_v one_o afore_o this_o which_o here_o he_o be_v deal_v against_o where_o we_o have_v these_o word_n it_o seem_v to_o we_o say_v we_o that_o this_o power_n viz._n by_o disquisition_n and_o disputation_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o rule_n and_o then_o to_o command_v obedience_n thereto_o be_v not_o proper_o a_o power_n and_o exercise_v of_o government_n and_o jurisdiction_n but_o a_o power_n of_o doctrine_n and_o so_o a_o synod_n be_v rather_o a_o teach_n then_o a_o govern_v church_n these_o be_v our_o word_n in_o the_o page_n afore_o allege_a wherein_o we_o plain_o express_v what_o the_o power_n of_o synod_n seem_v unto_o we_o to_o be_v even_o the_o direct_a contrary_a to_o that_o which_o he_o say_v we_o seem_v to_o make_v it_o we_o on_o the_o one_o side_n affirm_v and_o express_v that_o it_o seem_v to_o we_o the_o power_n of_o a_o synod_n be_v no_o power_n of_o government_n and_o jurisdiction_n but_o a_o power_n of_o doctrine_n and_o he_o on_o the_o other_o side_n report_v that_o we_o seem_v to_o make_v the_o exercise_n of_o dogmatic_a power_n to_o be_v formal_o a_o act_n of_o church-government_n and_o so_o to_o place_v church-government_n in_o the_o synod_n in_o which_o report_n we_o must_v needs_o say_v we_o be_v plain_o misreported_n his_o second_o answer_n be_v this_o the_o last_o period_n and_o conclusion_n of_o the_o controversy_n can_v be_v both_o in_o the_o congregation_n by_o right_a only_o and_o in_o the_o synod_n by_o right_a only_o for_o two_o last_o power_n can_v be_v proper_o in_o two_o subordinate_a judicature_n answ_n this_o be_v very_o true_a but_o it_o touch_v not_o we_o at_o all_o for_o we_o never_o say_v the_o last_o period_n of_o the_o controversy_n be_v both_o in_o the_o congregation_n only_o and_o in_o the_o synod_n only_o if_o we_o have_v so_o say_v let_v the_o place_n be_v produce_v where_o we_o have_v say_v it_o for_o the_o place_n by_o he_o allege_v do_v afford_v we_o no_o such_o thing_n nor_o any_o place_n else_o that_o we_o know_v of_o all_o that_o the_o place_n afford_v concern_v this_o point_n be_v only_o this_o that_o there_o be_v a_o power_n of_o clear_n the_o truth_n dogmatical_o in_o a_o synod_n though_o not_o in_o a_o synod_n only_o but_o also_o in_o the_o presbytery_n of_o a_o single_a congregation_n and_o this_o doctrine_n i_o hope_v our_o brother_n will_v not_o deny_v but_o whether_o this_o power_n be_v last_o in_o the_o synod_n or_o in_o the_o congregationall_a presbytery_n of_o this_o we_o do_v not_o speak_v at_o all_o much_o less_o do_v we_o say_v as_o he_o do_v apprehend_v and_o report_v that_o this_o power_n be_v both_o last_o in_o the_o synod_n and_o last_o in_o the_o congregation_n too_o wherefore_o our_o defence_n in_o this_o particular_a must_v needs_o be_v this_o that_o what_o here_o he_o confute_v to_o be_v out_v be_v such_o a_o thing_n as_o never_o fall_v from_o our_o mouth_n or_o pen_n nor_o for_o aught_o we_o know_v do_v never_o enter_v into_o our_o thought_n three_o he_o say_v if_o a_o controversy_n concern_v many_o congregation_n as_o this_o do_v act._n 15._o i_o see_v not_o how_o a_o congregation_n except_o they_o transgress_v their_o line_n can_v final_o determine_v it_o answ_n neither_o do_v this_o touch_v we_o except_o we_o have_v say_v that_o a_o congregation_n may_v final_o determine_v controversy_n which_o concern_v many_o church_n which_o yet_o we_o have_v not_o say_v as_o for_o that_o controversy_n act._n 15._o it_o be_v plain_a from_o verse_n 2_o that_o antioch_n do_v endeavour_v to_o have_v end_v it_o among_o themselves_o so_o far_o as_o they_o be_v trouble_v therewith_o for_o some_o teach_n that_o corrupt_a doctrine_n among_o they_o they_o have_v much_o disputation_n about_o the_o point_n afore_o they_o determine_v to_o send_v out_o for_o help_v elsewhere_o now_o to_o what_o end_n be_v thus_o much_o disputation_n if_o they_o have_v no_o right_a to_o determine_v the_o matter_n may_v they_o not_o better_o have_v spare_v their_o pain_n or_o do_v they_o not_o transgress_v their_o line_n in_o attempt_v what_o they_o do_v attempt_v sure_o it_o seem_v they_o do_v if_o they_o have_v not_o right_a to_o determine_v the_o matter_n but_o for_o our_o part_n since_o we_o do_v not_o find_v they_o in_o the_o least_o reprove_v by_o the_o holy_a ghost_n for_o this_o attempt_n therefore_o we_o can_v but_o think_v they_o do_v well_o therein_o and_o thereupon_o it_o follow_v that_o if_o antioch_n be_v a_o congregationall_a church_n as_o it_o seem_v to_o we_o it_o be_v from_o act._n 14._o 27._o either_o this_o controversy_n do_v trouble_v no_o church_n but_o antioch_n only_o or_o else_o when_o a_o controversy_n or_o corrupt_a opinion_n do_v trouble_v many_o church_n one_o of_o they_o may_v lawful_o determine_v and_o end_v it_o so_o far_o at_o it_o concern_v themselves_o chap._n v._n again_o of_o that_o assembly_n act._n 15._o whether_o their_o rebuke_v the_o false_a teacher_n do_v prove_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o excommunication_n in_o synod_n and_o whether_o preach_v do_v prove_v the_o assembly_n where_o it_o be_v to_o be_v a_o church_n the_o new_a place_n where_o i_o find_v he_o except_v
conceive_v be_v very_o true_o speak_v and_o thereupon_o it_o follow_v that_o there_o be_v a_o supremacy_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o that_o church_n of_o antioch_n and_o no_o necessity_n of_o appeal_n from_o they_o to_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o other_o for_o â—ith_o the_o synod_n be_v only_o to_o command_v the_o church_n to_o do_v their_o duty_n and_o to_o remit_v the_o censure_n of_o offender_n to_o the_o church_n themselves_o to_o who_o the_o offender_n belong_v it_o plain_o appear_v thereby_o where_o the_o supremacy_n of_o jurisdiction_n do_v lie_v the_o other_o place_n be_v in_o his_o page_n 307._o where_o we_o have_v these_o word_n viz._n the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n ordinary_a intensive_a and_o quo_fw-la ad_fw-la essentiam_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la ministerialis_fw-la according_a to_o the_o entire_a essence_n of_o a_o ministerial_a church_n be_v as_o perfect_a and_o complete_a in_o one_o single_a congregation_n as_o in_o a_o provincial_n as_o in_o a_o national_n yea_o as_o in_o the_o catholic_a visible_a body_n whereof_o christ_n be_v the_o head_n now_o if_o there_o be_v such_o perfect_a &_o complete_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o a_o single_a congregation_n i_o know_v not_o how_o there_o can_v be_v such_o necessity_n of_o appeal_v from_o they_o to_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o other_o as_o he_o be_v plead_v for_o nor_o how_o that_o supreme_a and_o independent_a power_n in_o congregation_n can_v be_v deny_v which_o here_o he_o dispute_v against_o for_o let_v this_o complete_a and_o perfect_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n be_v acknowledge_v as_o due_a to_o such_o church_n and_o appeal_v from_o they_o to_o other_o jurisdiction_n will_v be_v of_o small_a necessity_n or_o use_n i_o know_v indeed_o this_o reverend_a author_n say_v in_o the_o page_n last_o mention_v and_o within_o a_o few_o line_n of_o the_o word_n which_o i_o have_v here_o allege_v that_o a_o congregation_n be_v so_o a_o part_n of_o the_o presbytery_n that_o it_o have_v not_o a_o whole_a entire_a complete_a intensive_a power_n over_o its_o own_o member_n to_o excommunicate_v they_o and_o therefore_o the_o consociate_v church_n must_v have_v a_o power_n over_o the_o member_n of_o a_o congregation_n which_o word_n i_o confess_v seem_v not_o well_o to_o agree_v with_o the_o former_a because_o in_o the_o one_o entire_a complete_a intensive_a power_n be_v deny_v to_o a_o congregation_n and_o in_o the_o other_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n ordinary_a intensive_a be_v say_v to_o be_v as_o complete_a and_o perfect_a in_o the_o congregation_n as_o in_o the_o great_a church_n but_o it_o be_v not_o the_o latter_a word_n but_o the_o former_a which_o i_o do_v stand_v upon_o and_o by_o they_o as_o i_o conceive_v the_o supremacy_n of_o congregation_n be_v establish_v and_o the_o necessity_n of_o appeal_n from_o they_o to_o other_o jurisdiction_n be_v clear_o take_v away_o for_o if_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n be_v as_o entire_a perfect_a and_o complete_a in_o the_o congregation_n as_o in_o the_o great_a church_n as_o our_o brother_n express_o affirm_v it_o to_o be_v i_o know_v not_o the_o reason_n why_o there_o must_v be_v appeal_n from_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o the_o congregation_n unto_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o those_o other_o church_n if_o the_o power_n speak_v of_o be_v more_o imperfect_a and_o incomplete_a in_o the_o congregation_n than_o it_o be_v in_o the_o other_o church_n than_o there_o may_v be_v more_o reason_n or_o fair_a pretence_n for_o those_o appeal_n but_o since_o our_o author_n confess_v it_o be_v no_o more_o entire_a complete_a and_o perfect_a in_o these_o then_o in_o the_o congregation_n but_o as_o complete_a and_o perfect_a in_o the_o congregation_n as_o it_o be_v in_o the_o other_o i_o be_o yet_o to_o seek_v of_o a_o sufficient_a ground_n for_o the_o necessity_n of_o appeal_n from_o the_o jurisdiction_n in_o a_o congregation_n for_o be_v it_o reasonable_a to_o appeal_v from_o one_o judicatory_a to_o another_o and_o yet_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n be_v as_o entire_a complete_a and_o perfect_a in_o the_o former_a from_o which_o the_o appeal_n be_v make_v as_o in_o the_o latter_a to_o which_o the_o cause_n be_v bring_v by_o such_o appeal_n it_o seem_v by_o such_o appeal_v we_o be_v not_o like_a to_o be_v much_o helper_n nor_o much_o to_o mend_v the_o matter_n above_o what_o it_o be_v before_o and_o therefore_o the_o usefulness_n and_o necessity_n thereof_o be_v still_o unclâ—â—â—â—_n i_o think_v the_o brethren_n err_v in_o this_o to_o teach_v that_o antioch_n have_v power_n to_o determine_v the_o controversy_n act._n 15._o when_o the_o church_n of_o syria_n and_o cicilia_n to_o their_o knowledge_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a question_n as_o verse_n 24._o may_v clear_v i_o doubt_v much_o if_o they_o have_v power_n to_o determine_v a_o question_n that_o so_o much_o concern_v all_o the_o church_n answ_n it_o be_v not_o clear_a from_o verse_n 24._o nor_o from_o any_o part_n of_o the_o chapter_n as_o far_o as_o i_o can_v find_v that_o antioch_n do_v know_v that_o other_o church_n be_v trouble_v with_o this_o question_n and_o if_o they_o have_v know_v it_o i_o see_v nothing_o therein_o but_o they_o may_v notwithstanding_o lawful_o end_v the_o matter_n so_o far_o as_o concern_v themselves_o for_o when_o this_o question_n be_v start_v among_o they_o by_o such_o as_o come_v from_o judea_n and_o teach_v this_o corrupt_a doctrine_n at_o antioch_n the_o text_n be_v very_o clear_a verse_n 2_o that_o they_o have_v much_o disputation_n among_o themselves_o to_o have_v end_v the_o matter_n afore_o there_o be_v any_o speech_n of_o send_v to_o jerusalem_n which_o disputation_n be_v a_o argument_n that_o they_o have_v right_a to_o have_v end_v it_o if_o ability_n have_v noâ—_n be_v want_v and_o as_o for_o our_o brother_n reason_n for_o the_o contrary_n take_v from_o their_o knowledge_n that_o the_o other_o church_n of_o syria_n and_o cicilia_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a question_n there_o be_v 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that_o any_o other_o church_n beside_o themselves_o be_v trouble_v therewith_o but_o suppose_v they_o have_v know_v so_o much_o i_o see_v nothing_o in_o this_o to_o hinder_v but_o antioch_n may_v lawful_o clear_v up_o the_o truth_n in_o the_o question_n and_o censure_v such_o of_o their_o church_n as_o shall_v obstinate_o hold_v and_o teach_v that_o false_a doctrine_n notwithstanding_o their_o knowledge_n that_o other_o have_v be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a doctrine_n and_o teacher_n suppose_v a_o christian_a family_n be_v trouble_v with_o lie_a child_n or_o servant_n or_o such_o as_o be_v disobedient_a and_o undutiful_a in_o one_o kind_n or_o in_o another_o suppose_v they_o also_o know_v that_o their_o neighbour_n family_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a shall_v this_o knowledge_n of_o they_o hinder_v the_o parent_n or_o master_n in_o such_o a_o family_n from_o censure_v or_o correct_v these_o that_o be_v under_o their_o government_n according_a to_o their_o demerit_n if_o 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punish_v thief_n and_o such_o other_o malefactor_n only_o for_o this_o reason_n because_o to_o their_o knowledge_n other_o corporation_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a lewd_a person_n i_o suppose_v it_o be_v easy_a to_o see_v the_o insufficiency_n and_o invalidity_n of_o such_o consequence_n and_o therefore_o if_o antioch_n do_v know_v that_o other_o church_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a offender_n as_o themselves_o be_v trouble_v withal_o this_o need_v not_o to_o hinder_v but_o they_o may_v determine_v question_n that_o arise_v among_o themselves_o and_o may_v censure_v such_o of_o their_o member_n as_o shall_v trouble_v the_o church_n or_o brethren_n therewith_o and_o obstinate_o persist_v in_o so_o do_v this_o be_v consider_v withal_o that_o in_o thus_o do_v they_o do_v not_o go_v beyond_o their_o line_n nor_o meddle_v with_o matter_n any_o far_o but_o as_o they_o be_v within_o their_o compass_n for_o when_o divers_a church_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a corruption_n in_o doctrine_n or_o practice_n and_o some_o one_o of_o those_o church_n by_o use_v the_o key_n of_o doctrine_n or_o discipline_n or_o both_o do_v endeavour_v the_o removal_n of_o these_o corruption_n they_o do_v not_o hereby_o attempt_v and_o endeavour_v to_o remove_v they_o out_o of_o other_o church_n which_o may_v be_v a_o appearance_n of_o stretch_v their_o line_n beyond_o their_o compass_n but_o out_o of_o their_o own_o church_n and_o only_o so_o far_o as_o concern_v themselves_o and_o in_o so_o do_v no_o man_n can_v just_o say_v they_o meddle_v further_o than_o their_o power_n do_v reach_v but_o he_o give_v another_o reason_n why_o antioch_n have_v not_o right_a to_o determine_v the_o question_n and_o this_o be_v take_v from_o the_o strong_a party_n that_o be_v in_o antioch_n against_o the_o truth_n which_o be_v such_o as_o that_o they_o oppose_v paul_n and_o barnabas_n concern_v which_o he_o say_v that_o when_o the_o great_a part_n of_o a_o church_n as_o antioch_n be_v against_o the_o truth_n as_o be_v clear_a act._n 15._o 2._o he_o believe_v in_o that_o they_o lose_v their_o jus_o their_o right_n to_o determine_v eatenus_fw-la in_o so_o far_o for_o christ_n have_v give_v no_o ecclesiastical_a right_n and_o power_n to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n but_o only_o for_o truth_n and_o therefore_o in_o this_o appeal_v must_v be_v necessary_a answ_n how_o be_v it_o clear_a that_o the_o great_a part_n of_o the_o church_n at_o antioch_n be_v against_o the_o truth_n the_o text_n do_v not_o say_v so_o much_o but_o only_o this_o that_o certain_a man_n which_o come_v from_o judea_n teach_v the_o brethren_n and_o say_v except_o you_o be_v circumcise_a you_o can_v be_v save_v and_o that_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n have_v no_o small_a dissension_n and_o disputation_n with_o they_o about_o the_o matter_n and_o that_o in_o the_o issue_n they_o determine_v that_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n and_o certain_a other_o shall_v go_v up_o to_o jerusalem_n about_o the_o question_n thus_o much_o the_o scripture_n witness_v act._n 15._o 1_o 2._o but_o whether_o they_o that_o hold_v that_o corrupt_a doctrine_n at_o antioch_n be_v the_o major_a or_o the_o minor_a part_n of_o the_o church_n the_o text_n do_v not_o express_v except_o we_o shall_v say_v that_o where_o a_o false_a doctrine_n be_v teach_v by_o some_o and_o great_o oppose_v and_o dispute_v against_o by_o other_o there_o it_o must_v needs_o be_v that_o the_o great_a part_n be_v taint_v with_o that_o false_a doctrine_n which_o we_o think_v be_v no_o good_a consequence_n and_o therefore_o whereas_o our_o author_n say_v the_o great_a part_n of_o this_o church_n be_v against_o the_o truth_n and_o that_o so_o much_o be_v clear_a from_o verse_n 2._o i_o answer_v first_o that_o i_o do_v not_o perceive_v this_o clearness_n neither_o from_o verse_n 2_o nor_o from_o any_o other_o place_n of_o the_o chapter_n next_o suppose_v this_o be_v clear_a this_o may_v argue_v that_o they_o want_v ability_n and_o light_n to_o end_v the_o matter_n but_o must_v it_o need_v argue_v that_o they_o want_v right_a though_o they_o have_v be_v able_a or_o shall_v we_o say_v that_o they_o who_o want_v ability_n to_o do_v thing_n as_o they_o shall_v be_v do_v do_v therefore_o want_v right_a to_o â—â—alâ—_n in_o they_o at_o all_o i_o conceive_v it_o will_v not_o follow_v and_o the_o reason_n be_v because_o this_o right_n in_o church_n be_v natural_a or_o connaturall_a to_o every_o church_n and_o this_o want_n of_o ability_n be_v only_o accidental_a and_o therefore_o this_o latter_a can_v total_o hinder_v the_o former_a that_o light_n of_o government_n be_v natural_a or_o connaturall_a to_o every_o church_n our_o brother_n own_o word_n do_v testify_v page_n 341._o where_o he_o say_v this_o viz._n suppose_v that_o christ_n have_v a_o visible_a church_n it_o be_v moral_a that_o she_o have_v power_n of_o government_n also_o in_o so_o far_o as_o she_o be_v a_o church_n yea_o power_n of_o government_n upon_o this_o supposition_n be_v natural_a or_o rather_o connaturall_a and_o in_o page_n 307_o he_o say_v as_o be_v allege_v before_o that_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n ordinary_a intensive_a be_v as_o perfect_a and_o complete_a in_o one_o single_a congregation_n as_o in_o a_o provincial_n or_o in_o a_o national_n yea_o as_o in_o the_o catholic_a visible_a body_n whereof_o christ_n be_v the_o head_n and_o in_o page_n 383._o he_o say_v that_o to_o a_o congregation_n christ_n have_v give_v by_o a_o immediate_a flux_n from_o himself_o a_o political_a church_n power_n intrinsciâ—ally_o in_o it_o derive_v from_o none_o but_o immediate_o from_o jesus_n christ_n and_o the_o like_a he_o say_v of_o a_o presbyterial_a church_n now_o whether_o antioch_n be_v a_o congregationall_a church_n as_o we_o hold_v or_o a_o presbyterial_a as_o be_v hold_v by_o this_o our_o brother_n yet_o it_o be_v clear_a by_o those_o word_n of_o his_o here_o allege_a that_o be_v essential_o a_o church_n it_o have_v a_o political_a church_n power_n intrinscical_o within_o itself_o yet_o a_o perfect_a and_o complete_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n yea_o and_o such_o a_o power_n as_o be_v natural_a or_o connaturall_a unto_o she_o as_o she_o be_v a_o church_n but_o now_o the_o light_n of_o knowledge_n whereby_o they_o shall_v be_v enable_v well_o to_o use_v this_o power_n do_v not_o add_v any_o power_n unto_o they_o which_o they_o have_v not_o before_o not_o do_v the_o want_n of_o it_o be_v but_o accidental_a deprive_v they_o of_o that_o power_n which_o be_v intrinscicall_a essential_a and_o connaturall_a unto_o they_o as_o they_o be_v a_o church_n of_o christ_n only_o this_o want_n do_v hinder_v their_o ability_n to_o express_v their_o power_n well_o but_o their_o right_n as_o be_v a_o thing_n connaturall_a do_v still_o remain_v our_o brother_n have_v a_o say_n or_o two_o about_o the_o civil_a power_n which_o by_o proportion_n may_v well_o illustrate_v this_o that_o i_o be_o speak_v okubo_n it_o the_o church-power_n in_o one_o place_n he_o say_v thus_o there_o be_v a_o twofold_a power_n in_o a_o king_n one_o in_o a_o king_n as_o a_o king_n and_o this_o be_v a_o like_a in_o all_o and_o ordinary_a regal_a coactive_a whether_o the_o king_n be_v a_o heathen_a a_o turk_n or_o a_o sound_n believe_v christian_n there_o be_v another_o power_n in_o a_o king_n as_o such_o a_o king_n either_o as_o a_o prophetical_a king_n as_o david_n and_o solomon_n or_o as_o a_o christian_a believe_v king_n and_o of_o this_o latter_a he_o say_v that_o it_o be_v not_o a_o new_a regal_a power_n but_o potestas_fw-la execuliba_fw-la a_o power_n or_o gracious_a ability_n to_o execute_v the_o kingly_a power_n which_o he_o have_v before_o as_o a_o king_n page_n 387._o etc._n etc._n 388._o â—ow_o why_o may_v it_o not_o be_v say_v in_o like_a sort_n there_o be_v in_o a_o church_n twofold_a power_n one_o in_o a_o church_n as_o it_o be_v a_o church_n and_o this_o be_v a_o like_a in_o all_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n whether_o the_o church_n in_o this_o or_o that_o particular_a question_n have_v light_a to_o discern_v and_o hold_v the_o truth_n or_o otherwise_o another_o in_o a_o church_n as_o it_o be_v sound_a believe_a church_n hold_v the_o truth_n in_o such_o or_o such_o question_n and_o this_o be_v but_o only_o a_o gracious_a ability_n to_o exercise_v the_o power_n which_o they_o have_v before_o not_o add_v to_o they_o any_o new_a power_n at_o all_o again_o in_o his_o page_n 393._o he_o have_v these_o word_n though_o the_o king_n be_v not_o a_o christian_a magistrate_n yet_o have_v he_o a_o kingly_a power_n to_o command_v man_n as_o christian_n and_o it_o be_v by_o accident_n that_o he_o can_v in_o that_o state_n command_v christian_n duty_n and_o service_n to_o christ_n because_o he_o will_v not_o and_o can_v command_v those_o duty_n remain_v ignorant_a of_o christ_n
even_o as_o a_o king_n ignorant_a of_o necessary_a civil_a duty_n can_v command_v they_o not_o because_o he_o want_v kingly_a power_n to_o command_v these_o civil_a thing_n for_o undeniable_o he_o be_v a_o judge_n in_o civil_a thing_n but_o because_o he_o have_v not_o knowledge_n of_o they_o and_o may_v we_o not_o say_v in_o like_a sort_n though_o a_o church_n want_v the_o knowledge_n of_o the_o truth_n in_o some_o particular_a question_n yet_o they_o have_v a_o church_n power_n to_o determine_v such_o question_n &_o to_o command_v obedience_n therein_o and_o it_o be_v by_o accident_n they_o can_v in_o that_o state_n determine_v right_o because_o they_o will_v not_o be_v ignorant_a of_o the_o truth_n therein_o not_o because_o they_o want_v church-power_n to_o determine_v such_o matter_n but_o because_o they_o have_v not_o the_o knowledge_n of_o they_o again_o a_o little_a after_o in_o the_o same_o p._n he_o tell_v we_o that_o christianity_n add_v no_o new_a fatherly_a power_n to_o a_o father_n over_o his_o child_n nor_o give_v a_o new_a husband_n right_a to_o the_o husband_n once_o a_o heathen_a over_o his_o wife_n for_o a_o heathen_a father_n be_v as_o essential_o a_o father_n over_o his_o child_n as_o a_o christian_a father_n and_o a_o heathen_a husband_n a_o heathen_a master_n etc._n etc._n be_v all_o as_o essential_o husband_n master_n etc._n etc._n as_o be_v the_o christian_a husband_n master_n etc._n etc._n and_o may_v we_o not_o as_o well_o say_v soundness_n of_o knowledge_n in_o such_o or_o such_o a_o particular_a question_n add_v no_o new_a church_n power_n to_o a_o christian_a church_n over_o their_o own_o member_n nor_o give_v a_o new_a church_n right_a over_o they_o which_o they_o have_v not_o before_o for_o a_o church_n that_o want_v such_o knowledge_n be_v as_o essential_o a_o church_n invest_v with_o church_n power_n over_o her_o member_n as_o be_v another_o church_n for_o aught_o i_o perceive_v the_o case_n be_v alike_o and_o if_o soundness_n of_o knowledge_n do_v not_o give_v to_o a_o church_n their_o church-right_a in_o this_o or_o that_o question_n how_o can_v want_v of_o that_o knowledge_n deprive_v they_o of_o that_o right_a sure_o one_o will_v think_v the_o whole_a substance_n of_o christianity_n may_v do_v as_o much_o for_o the_o add_v of_o kingly_a right_n fatherly_a right_n husband_n right_a etc._n etc._n as_o soundness_n of_o knowledge_n in_o some_o one_o particular_a question_n for_o the_o add_v of_o church_n right_a &_o that_o the_o want_n of_o all_o christianity_n shall_v be_v as_o available_a for_o take_v away_o the_o kingly_a right_n the_o fatherly_a right_n etc._n etc._n as_o the_o want_n of_o knowledge_n in_o one_o particular_a point_n for_o the_o take_z away_o of_o church-right_a and_o since_o we_o have_v our_o brother_n own_o testimony_n clear_a and_o full_a for_o the_o one_o it_o seem_v to_o i_o the_o case_n be_v so_o parallel_a and_o proportionable_a that_o the_o other_o be_v unavoidable_a i_o mean_v thus_o since_o in_o the_o one_o case_n the_o whole_a substance_n of_o christianity_n do_v not_o give_v power_n nor_o the_o want_n thereof_o take_v away_o the_o same_o by_o our_o brother_n own_o teach_n i_o know_v not_o how_o in_o the_o other_o case_n soundness_n of_o knowledge_n in_o one_o particular_a question_n shall_v give_v power_n or_o right_n &_o want_v of_o such_o knowledge_n take_v away_o the_o same_o and_o so_o for_o antioch_n in_o particular_a if_o it_o be_v as_o our_o brother_n suppose_v that_o the_o great_a part_n of_o they_o do_v hold_v against_o the_o truth_n in_o that_o question_n about_o circumcision_n i_o see_v not_o how_o this_o can_v deprive_v they_o of_o their_o church_n right_a which_o they_o have_v before_o as_o for_o our_o brother_n reason_n that_o christ_n have_v give_v no_o ecclesiastical_a right_n and_o power_n to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n but_o only_o for_o the_o truth_n this_o say_n i_o confess_v be_v very_o true_a but_o do_v not_o suffice_v for_o the_o purpose_n for_o which_o he_o bring_v it_o viz._n to_o prove_v that_o antioch_n be_v ignorant_a of_o the_o truth_n in_o that_o question_n about_o circumcision_n or_o hold_v against_o the_o truth_n therein_o do_v thereby_o lose_v their_o church_n right_a to_o determine_v for_o if_o this_o reason_n be_v good_a than_o a_o man_n may_v conclude_v against_o that_o power_n in_o heathen_a king_n parent_n and_o husband_n to_o govern_v their_o subject_n child_n and_o wife_n which_o our_o brother_n as_o we_o hear_v afore_o have_v grant_v and_o teach_v for_o suppose_v that_o antioch_n be_v ignorant_a of_o the_o truth_n in_o that_o particular_a be_v it_o not_o clear_a that_o the_o king_n parent_n and_o husband_n mention_v be_v ignorant_a of_o the_o truth_n in_o many_o more_o matter_n and_o it_o antioch_n do_v hereupon_o loose_v their_o right_n because_o christ_n have_v give_v no_o power_n to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n but_o for_o the_o truth_n how_o will_v it_o be_v avoid_v but_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n â—he_v king_n and_o the_o other_o mention_a must_v likewise_o lose_v their_o right_n to_o govern_v their_o own_o subject_n and_o family_n for_o the_o lord_n give_v no_o right_a i_o hope_v to_o pagan_n against_o the_o truth_n no_o more_o than_o he_o do_v unto_o church_n and_o therefore_o if_o the_o reason_n be_v valid_a and_o strong_a in_o the_o one_o case_n and_o for_o the_o purpose_n for_o which_o our_o brother_n bring_v it_o it_o seem_v to_o be_v as_o strong_a in_o the_o other_o case_n also_o which_o shall_v be_v contrary_a to_o what_o our_o brother_n himself_o do_v teach_v in_o a_o word_n churches_n and_o antioch_n in_o particular_a have_v right_a to_o determine_v question_n and_o they_o ought_v to_o determine_v only_o according_a to_o the_o truth_n they_o have_v formal_o a_o right_a to_o determine_v and_o when_o their_o determination_n be_v according_a to_o truth_n than_o they_o will_v â—ind_v vi_o matâ—â—iâ—_n which_o else_o they_o will_v not_o they_o have_v right_a to_o determine_v in_o fore_n humano_fw-la and_o if_o their_o determination_n be_v for_o matter_n agreeable_a to_o truth_n they_o will_v be_v ratify_v in_o foro_fw-la diuâ—â—o_fw-la but_o not_o else_o now_o our_o brother_n argue_v do_v seem_v to_o confound_v these_o two_o and_o because_o of_o the_o latter_a which_o be_v free_o grant_v he_o will_v conclude_v against_o the_o former_a which_o we_o think_v be_v not_o good_a reason_n but_o on_o the_o contrary_n do_v still_o think_v that_o though_o church_n ought_v to_o give_v out_o no_o determination_n but_o such_o as_o be_v agreeable_a to_o truth_n and_o that_o otherwise_o their_o determination_n in_o respect_n of_o the_o matter_n of_o they_o will_v not_o bind_v before_o god_n yet_o for_o all_o this_o they_o may_v have_v right_a formal_o and_o in_o foro_n humano_fw-la to_o judge_n and_o to_o determine_v of_o such_o thing_n moreover_o if_o this_o be_v grant_v for_o true_a that_o antioch_n when_o they_o be_v against_o the_o truth_n do_v lose_v their_o right_n to_o determine_v controversy_n yet_o we_o be_v not_o hereby_o much_o near_o to_o a_o issue_n unless_o it_o be_v determine_v withal_o who_o must_v be_v judge_n whether_o they_o be_v against_o the_o truth_n or_o no_o and_o the_o reason_n be_v because_o if_o they_o be_v not_o against_o the_o truth_n but_o for_o it_o than_o i_o hope_v it_o will_v be_v grant_v that_o they_o do_v not_o lose_v their_o right_n at_o all_o the_o question_n therefore_o still_o remain_v who_o have_v this_o ministerial_a power_n to_o judge_n whether_o this_o or_o that_o church_n antioch_n or_o any_o other_o be_v against_o the_o truth_n or_o for_o it_o and_o unless_o this_o be_v clear_v we_o be_v but_o where_o we_o be_v before_o but_o to_o draw_v towards_o a_o end_n of_o this_o passage_n about_o the_o church_n of_o antioch_n whether_o they_o have_v right_a to_o determine_v controversy_n when_o ability_n fail_v or_o whether_o they_o do_v when_o lose_v that_o right_n i_o will_v here_o transcribe_v a_o few_o word_n of_o our_o brother_n as_o i_o find_v they_o in_o his_o second_o 331._o page_n wherein_o he_o either_o clear_o yield_v the_o cause_n and_o say_v the_o same_o that_o we_o do_v or_o i_o be_o much_o mistake_v the_o word_n be_v these_o there_o be_v a_o difference_n between_o ability_n to_o judge_v and_o right_a or_o power_n to_o judge_v a_o presbyterial_a church_n and_o he_o dispute_v in_o six_o page_n together_o to_o prove_v antioch_n such_o a_o one_o page_n 470._o 471._o etc._n etc._n sequ_o may_v have_v right_a jus_o and_o ecclesiastical_a law_n to_o judge_v of_o a_o point_n to_o the_o judge_v whereof_o they_o want_v ability_n therefore_o de_fw-la facto_fw-la it_o belong_v to_o a_o high_a synod_n where_o more_o learned_a man_n be_v though_o the_o jure_v the_o presbytery_n may_v judge_v it_o these_o word_n i_o wish_v to_o be_v well_o consider_v for_o
reason_n which_o do_v show_v that_o the_o jew_n and_o they_o be_v very_o unlike_a the_o jew_n have_v a_o supreme_a judicatory_a for_o the_o final_a end_n of_o cruse_n and_o they_o have_v none_o be_v to_o show_v ourselves_o very_o irrational_a or_o worse_o end_v why_o our_o brother_n shall_v put_v such_o a_o thing_n upon_o we_o we_o be_v no_o way_n guilty_a thereof_o we_o do_v not_o know_v but_o we_o desire_v that_o our_o reason_n may_v be_v apply_v to_o our_o own_o conclusion_n to_o which_o we_o do_v and_o do_v apply_v it_o and_o not_o to_o this_o other_o express_v by_o our_o brother_n which_o indeed_o be_v none_o of_o we_o and_o then_o we_o be_v content_v that_o rational_a and_o judicious_a reader_n may_v judge_v whether_o or_o no_o there_o be_v any_o sufficient_a weight_n therein_o which_o that_o they_o may_v more_o ready_o do_v i_o have_v here_o recollect_v the_o same_o into_o this_o short_a sum_n that_o they_o may_v brief_o behold_v it_o with_o one_o view_n viz_o if_o the_o jew_n have_v a_o supreme_a judicatory_a for_o the_o final_a end_n of_o cause_n and_o the_o congregationall_a way_n have_v the_o like_a if_o the_o jew_n have_v a_o stand_v judicatory_a always_o in_o readiness_n for_o the_o hear_n of_o cause_n and_o the_o congregationall_a way_n have_v the_o like_a and_o if_o the_o supreme_a judicatory_a among_o the_o jew_n be_v very_o far_o remote_a from_o many_o of_o they_o and_o in_o the_o congregationall_a way_n be_v more_o convenient_a and_o near_o at_o hand_n than_o the_o congregationall_a way_n be_v in_o some_o thing_n equal_a to_o the_o jew_n and_o in_o other_o thing_n more_o excellent_a but_o the_o first_o be_v true_a in_o all_o the_o particular_n and_o therefore_o the_o second_o be_v true_a also_o again_o if_o the_o jew_n have_v a_o supreme_a judicatory_a for_o the_o final_a end_n of_o cause_n and_o the_o way_n of_o our_o brethren_n have_v not_o if_o the_o jew_n have_v a_o stand_v judicatory_a always_o in_o readiness_n for_o the_o hear_n of_o cause_n and_o the_o way_n of_o our_o brethren_n have_v not_o and_o if_o the_o supreme_a judicatory_a among_o the_o jew_n be_v very_o remote_a from_o many_o of_o they_o and_o synod_n among_o our_o brethren_n be_v the_o same_o than_o the_o way_n of_o our_o brethren_n be_v in_o some_o thing_n as_o defective_a as_o the_o jew_n and_o in_o other_o thing_n more_o defective_a than_o they_o but_o the_o first_o be_v true_a in_o all_o the_o particular_n of_o it_o and_o therefore_o the_o second_o be_v true_a also_o both_o the_o assumption_n in_o all_o the_o branch_n thereof_o i_o conceive_v be_v clear_o prove_v in_o the_o answer_n in_o the_o page_n which_o our_o brother_n do_v allege_v and_o whether_o the_o consequence_n be_v good_a let_v the_o wise_a judge_n have_v thus_o reduce_v our_o argumentation_n to_o its_o own_o proper_a and_o genuine_a shape_n let_v we_o now_o consider_v of_o mr._n rutherford_n answer_v thereto_o first_o say_v he_o the_o speediness_n of_o end_v controversy_n in_o a_o congregation_n be_v bad_o comprise_v with_o the_o suddenness_n and_o temerity_n of_o deliver_v man_n to_o satan_n upon_o the_o decision_n of_o three_o elder_n without_o so_o much_o as_o ask_v advise_v of_o any_o class_n of_o elder_n and_o with_o decide_v question_n deep_a and_o grave_a which_o concern_v many_o church_n which_o be_v a_o put_n of_o a_o private_a sickle_n in_o a_o common_a and_o public_a harvest_n answ_n if_o advise_v from_o other_o church_n may_v be_v have_v we_o never_o speak_v word_n for_o do_v weighty_a matter_n without_o the_o same_o but_o in_o such_o case_n it_o be_v both_o our_o practice_n and_o advise_v to_o make_v use_n thereof_o and_o therefore_o this_o deliver_v man_n to_o satan_n in_o way_n of_o temerity_n or_o rashness_n touch_v not_o we_o who_o opinion_n and_o practice_n be_v other_o wise_a as_o for_o suddenness_n i_o conceive_v if_o the_o same_o be_v sometime_o accompany_v with_o temerity_n and_o rashness_n and_o so_o worthy_a to_o be_v blame_v yet_o not_o always_o for_o in_o the_o reformation_n of_o the_o house_n of_o god_n in_o the_o day_n of_o hezekiah_n it_o be_v say_v that_o the_o thing_n be_v do_v sudden_o 2_o chron._n 29._o 36._o where_o suddenness_n do_v not_o signify_v any_o sinful_a temerity_n or_o râ—shnesle_n but_o contrary_o do_v testify_v god_n great_a goodnesle_n that_o have_v so_o prepare_v the_o people_n to_o so_o good_a a_o work_n for_o this_o cause_n this_o suddenness_n be_v to_o hezekiah_n and_o god_n people_n a_o occasion_n and_o ground_n of_o great_a joy_n and_o gladness_n which_o temerity_n can_v not_o have_v be_v and_o therefore_o suddenness_n and_o temerity_n must_v not_o always_o be_v confound_v and_o couple_v together_o as_o if_o they_o be_v the_o same_o though_o hasty_a deliver_v of_o man_n to_o satan_n without_o due_a consideration_n be_v not_o good_a yet_o overlong_o delay_v of_o due_a proceed_n against_o delinquent_n be_v bad_a also_o for_o the_o holy_a ghost_n tell_v we_o because_o sentence_v against_o a_o evil_a work_n be_v not_o execute_v speedy_o therefore_o the_o heart_n of_o the_o son_n of_o man_n be_v full_o set_v to_o do_v evil_a eccl._n 8._o 11._o for_o which_o cause_n execute_v judgement_n in_o the_o morning_n that_o be_v to_o say_v speedy_o be_v sometime_o express_o require_v jer._n 21._o 12._o which_o be_v speak_v of_o justice_n to_o be_v execute_v by_o civil_a authority_n do_v hold_v by_o proportion_n and_o like_a reason_n in_o ecclesiastical_a censure_n for_o as_o much_o as_o speedinesle_n be_v a_o duty_n and_o delay_n be_v daangerous_a in_o the_o one_o case_n as_o well_o as_o in_o the_o other_o whereas_o our_o author_n think_v much_o that_o excommunication_n shall_v proceed_v upon_o the_o decision_n of_o three_o elder_n as_o we_o know_v nothing_o but_o a_o congregation_n may_v have_v more_o elder_n than_o the_o three_o if_o god_n provide_v they_o fit_a man_n and_o the_o numerousnesse_n of_o the_o congregation_n so_o require_v in_o which_o case_n our_o author_n say_v nothing_o to_o the_o contrary_a but_o they_o may_v have_v power_n to_o excommunicate_v so_o if_o they_o have_v but_o three_o we_o know_v nothing_o in_o this_o but_o they_o may_v have_v power_n to_o excommunicate_v notwithstanding_o since_o himself_o teach_v due_a right_n page_n 61._o that_o the_o jew_n have_v their_o congregationall_a church_n as_o we_o have_v and_o have_v their_o meeting_n in_o their_o synagogue_n not_o only_o for_o doctrine_n but_o also_o for_o discipline_n and_o excommunication_n which_o if_o it_o be_v so_o it_o seem_v there_o may_v be_v excommunication_n by_o as_o small_a a_o number_n as_o three_o unless_o it_o can_v appear_v that_o in_o every_o synagogue_n the_o elder_n and_o ruler_n in_o it_o be_v a_o great_a number_n than_o be_v here_o mention_v which_o be_v more_o than_o i_o do_v remember_v to_o be_v express_v in_o scripture_n yea_o and_o further_o he_o tell_v we_o that_o the_o inferior_a judicature_n in_o israel_n have_v power_n of_o life_n and_o death_n page_n 315._o now_o the_o judge_n in_o these_o inferior_a judicature_n though_o they_o must_v never_o be_v under_o that_o number_n of_o three_o yet_o they_o do_v not_o always_o exceed_v the_o same_o for_o aught_o that_o do_v appear_v and_o if_o three_o judge_n have_v power_n of_o life_n and_o death_n why_o may_v not_o a_o congregation_n with_o three_o elder_n have_v power_n of_o excommunication_n moreover_o in_o his_o page_n 454._o he_o give_v we_o these_o word_n for_o a_o proposition_n that_o it_o flow_v connatural_o from_o a_o church_n to_o which_o agree_v the_o essence_n of_o church_n to_o exercise_v jurisdiction_n over_o all_o its_o own_o member_n to_o which_o those_o word_n do_v also_o agree_v page_n 287._o viz._n the_o power_n and_o right_a to_o discipline_n be_v a_o propriety_n essential_a to_o a_o church_n and_o be_v not_o remove_v from_o it_o till_o god_n remove_v the_o candlestick_n and_o the_o church_n cease_v to_o be_v a_o visible_a church_n and_o in_o page_n 302._o he_o afford_v we_o these_o word_n for_o a_o assumption_n that_o a_o congregation_n be_v a_o church_n want_v nothing_o of_o the_o be_v and_o essence_n of_o a_o church_n and_o hence_o the_o conclusion_n be_v obvious_a that_o a_o congregation_n may_v exercise_v jurisdiction_n over_o all_o it_o own_o member_n and_o in_o as_o much_o as_o a_o congregation_n in_o which_o be_v but_o three_o elder_n be_v a_o congregation_n it_o follow_v that_o a_o congregation_n in_o which_o be_v but_o three_o elder_n may_v exercise_v such_o jurisdiction_n this_o conclusion_n our_o author_n can_v deny_v in_o as_o much_o as_o it_o necessary_o and_o direct_o follow_v from_o premise_n which_o be_v both_o his_o own_o yea_o in_o his_o page_n 302._o hâ—_n say_v that_o this_o be_v a_o principle_n of_o church_n policy_n that_o every_o politic_a body_n of_o christ_n have_v power_n of_o church_n government_n
hear_v matter_n propose_v to_o they_o to_o consider_v thereof_o and_o upon_o like_v to_o put_v they_o in_o execution_n as_o in_o other_o thing_n so_o in_o this_o particular_a of_o make_v election_n of_o officer_n as_o there_o they_o be_v record_v to_o have_v do_v and_o as_o for_o the_o other_o place_n act._n 21._o though_o it_o be_v a_o question_n whether_o those_o many_o thousand_o jew_n that_o believe_v be_v all_o member_n of_o that_o one_o church_n at_o jerusalem_n yet_o it_o can_v be_v any_o question_n whether_o they_o may_v come_v together_o in_o one_o place_n since_o james_n and_o the_o elder_n do_v express_o there_o say_v unto_o paul_n the_o multitude_n must_v needs_o come_v together_o for_o they_o will_v hear_v that_o thou_o be_v come_v nor_o can_v we_o say_v they_o may_v come_v together_o only_o distributive_o in_o sundry_a company_n but_o not_o all_o in_o one_o place_n for_o the_o end_n of_o their_o come_n together_o will_v not_o bear_v that_o exposition_n which_o end_n be_v that_o they_o may_v see_v and_o hear_v paul_n and_o try_v what_o satisfaction_n he_o will_v give_v they_o in_o the_o matter_n whereof_o they_o be_v inform_v of_o he_o that_o he_o teach_v the_o jew_n to_o forsake_v moses_n and_o to_o omit_v circumcision_n and_o other_o jewish_a custom_n these_o thing_n they_o be_v inform_v to_o have_v be_v teach_v by_o he_o among_o the_o gentile_n and_o hear_v that_o he_o be_v come_v to_o the_o city_n they_o must_v needs_o come_v together_o to_o hear_v what_o he_o will_v say_v to_o the_o matter_n and_o how_o he_o will_v clear_v himself_o now_o if_o this_o be_v the_o end_n of_o their_o come_n together_o it_o must_v needs_o be_v that_o their_o come_n be_v altogether_o unto_o one_o place_n and_o not_o in_o several_a company_n for_o this_o can_v not_o answer_v their_o end_n inasmuch_o as_o paul_n be_v but_o one_o person_n it_o be_v not_o possible_a they_o can_v see_v he_o nor_o hear_v he_o in_o sundry_a place_n at_o once_o and_o therefore_o they_o may_v as_o well_o have_v stay_v at_o home_n and_o not_o have_v come_v together_o at_o all_o as_o come_v together_o in_o such_o sort_n plain_o it_o be_v therefore_o that_o the_o multitude_n speak_v of_o in_o these_o two_o scripture_n be_v not_o so_o many_o but_o they_o may_v meet_v in_o one_o congregation_n which_o point_n as_o something_o have_v be_v say_v in_o the_o answer_n p._n 34_o 35._o for_o the_o clear_n of_o it_o so_o i_o be_o the_o more_o confirm_v in_o it_o by_o mr._n rutherford_n his_o deal_v concern_v these_o scripture_n for_o though_o he_o make_v mention_n of_o they_o in_o this_o place_n as_o we_o see_v and_o of_o that_o apprehension_n of_o my_o concern_v those_o scripture_n yet_o he_o do_v not_o at_o all_o remove_v the_o ground_n which_o be_v give_v for_o that_o apprehension_n in_o the_o answer_n but_o do_v whole_o pass_v they_o by_o in_o silence_n now_o take_v occasion_n to_o speak_v of_o the_o scripture_n and_o relate_v what_o my_o apprehension_n be_v concern_v the_o same_o and_o yet_o say_v nothing_o at_o all_o to_o the_o gronnd_n whereon_o that_o apprehension_n be_v build_v it_o seem_v hereby_o to_o be_v employ_v that_o indeed_o he_o have_v nothing_o in_o readiness_n to_o object_n against_o the_o same_o so_o that_o i_o may_v still_o conceive_v of_o those_o scripture_n as_o i_o do_v before_o for_o any_o thing_n yet_o bring_v to_o induce_v i_o to_o be_v of_o another_o mind_n as_o for_o that_o which_o next_o follow_v certain_o the_o apostle_n practice_n must_v be_v our_o rule_n and_o then_o 500_o or_o 1000_o be_v so_o far_o beneath_o 10_o or_o 8000_o may_v well_o seem_v a_o number_n for_o fewness_n not_o competent_a and_o what_o shall_v we_o then_o think_v of_o 7_o only_a or_o 10._o answ_n the_o answer_n be_v that_o the_o apostle_n practice_n do_v not_o at_o all_o condemn_v we_o though_o our_o congregation_n have_v not_o in_o they_o the_o like_a number_n but_o sometime_o more_o and_o sometime_o less_o for_o be_v it_o not_o so_o in_o that_o primative_a apostolic_a church_n be_v it_o not_o plain_a that_o that_o church_n be_v for_o number_n far_o lesser_a at_o the_o first_o than_o afterward_o when_o they_o grow_v to_o 4000_o or_o more_o and_o yet_o after_o this_o they_o grow_v to_o be_v few_o again_o when_o persecution_n scatter_v they_o all_o abroad_o except_o the_o apostle_n act._n 8._o 1._o and_o therefore_o if_o 10_o or_o 8000_o be_v once_o the_o number_n in_o that_o church_n be_v a_o rule_n condemn_v out_o church_n as_o be_v for_o fewness_n not_o competent_a when_o they_o be_v beneath_o that_o number_n how_o will_v it_o be_v avoid_v but_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n the_o practice_n of_o that_o church_n at_o one_o time_n shall_v be_v a_o rule_n for_o the_o condemn_v of_o itself_o at_o another_o time_n for_o sure_a it_o be_v their_o number_n be_v not_o at_o all_o time_n alike_o but_o sometime_o more_o and_o sometime_o less_o as_o in_o the_o sea_n it_o be_v not_o always_o full_a tide_n but_o sometime_o low_a ebb_n nor_o be_v the_o moon_n always_o at_o full_a but_o sometime_o at_o the_o change_n nay_o if_o the_o apostle_n practice_n must_v be_v our_o rule_n than_o inasmuch_o as_o their_o church_n have_v not_o always_o the_o like_a number_n of_o member_n in_o they_o but_o sometime_o the_o number_n be_v great_a and_o sometime_o lesser_a it_o will_v follow_v therefore_o that_o the_o number_n of_o member_n in_o our_o church_n need_v not_o always_o to_o be_v the_o same_o but_o though_o great_a number_n be_v lawful_a yet_o the_o lawfulness_n of_o lesser_a number_n may_v not_o be_v deny_v chap._n fourteen_o whether_o the_o church_n at_o corinth_n be_v one_o church_n meet_v distributive_o in_o sundry_a congregation_n or_o whether_o it_o be_v only_o one_o congregation_n and_o whether_o 1_o cor._n 14._o 23._o if_o the_o whole_a church_n come_v together_o in_o some_o place_n etc._n etc._n do_v make_v for_o sundry_a congregation_n or_o for_o one_o only_a page_n 464._o i_o can_v but_o think_v that_o weak_a which_o mr._n mather_n and_o mr._n tompson_n say_v answer_v page_n 37._o the_o place_n 1_o cor._n 14._o 23._o that_o speak_v of_o the_o whole_a church_n come_v together_o to_o one_o place_n do_v unavoidable_o prove_v that_o corinth_n have_v their_o meeting_n and_o not_o by_o way_n of_o distribution_n into_o several_a congregation_n but_o altogether_o in_o one_o congregation_n and_o it_o be_v plain_a that_o though_o they_o have_v variety_n of_o teacher_n and_o prophet_n yet_o they_o all_o use_v to_o come_v together_o to_o one_o place_n answ_n if_o that_o which_o we_o say_v be_v weak_a it_o be_v more_o easy_a for_o one_o of_o such_o ability_n and_o strength_n as_o mr._n rutherford_n to_o overthrow_v the_o same_o yet_o it_o be_v not_o word_n that_o will_v suffice_v but_o weight_n of_o reason_n that_o must_v avail_v thereto_o let_v we_o hear_v therefore_o his_o answer_n to_o this_o passage_n which_o he_o think_v and_o censure_n to_o be_v so_o weak_a the_o place_n say_v he_o 1_o cor._n 14._o 23._o if_o the_o whole_a church_n come_v together_o etc._n etc._n death_n evince_n the_o contrary_n for_o the_o apostle_n do_v there_o reason_n ab_fw-la absurdo_fw-la from_o a_o great_a incongruity_n it_o be_v incongruous_a say_v he_o and_o ridiculous_a that_o the_o whole_a church_n of_o corinth_n and_o all_o their_o guifted_a man_n speak_v with_o tongue_n so_o that_o they_o can_v not_o be_v understand_v by_o infidel_n shall_v all_o convene_v in_o one_o place_n and_o speak_v with_o divers_a tongue_n for_o the_o unlearned_a and_o unbeliever_n will_v say_v they_o be_v mad_a therefore_o he_o presuppose_v that_o the_o whole_a church_n shall_v not_o all_o come_v to_o one_o place_n but_o that_o they_o shall_v so_o come_v to_o one_o place_n in_o divers_a assembly_n answ_n and_o be_v it_o true_a indeed_o that_o this_o place_n do_v evince_v the_o contrary_a viz._n that_o the_o church_n at_o corinth_n do_v not_o all_o meet_v in_o one_o congregation_n how_o shall_v we_o be_v assure_v that_o such_o a_o thing_n be_v evince_v by_o the_o place_n for_o as_o for_o the_o reason_n give_v etc._n etc._n that_o the_o apostle_n dâ—th_v there_o reason_n ab_fw-la absurdo_fw-la or_o from_o great_a incongruity_n this_o do_v not_o prove_v the_o thing_n at_o all_o partly_o because_o they_o may_v practice_v something_o that_o be_v not_o meet_v but_o have_v incongruity_n in_o it_o and_o partly_o and_o more_o especial_o because_o the_o apostle_n do_v not_o lay_v the_o absurdity_n where_o mr._n rutherford_n lay_v it_o viz._n in_o the_o convening_n of_o the_o whole_a church_n in_o one_o place_n but_o in_o their_o speak_n with_o strange_a tongue_n when_o they_o be_v convene_v and_o come_v together_o touch_v the_o former_a of_o these_o mr._n rutherford_n reason_v to_o this_o effect_n if_o it_o be_v a_o incongruous_a
prophet_n when_o they_o prophesy_v be_v to_o have_v the_o rest_n of_o the_o prophet_n to_o be_v 〈◊〉_d to_o hear_v and_o judge_n of_o that_o which_o be_v deliver_v let_v the_o prophet_n speak_v two_o or_o three_o and_o the_o rest_n judge_n verse_n 29._o and_o the_o spirit_n of_o the_o prophet_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o prophet_n verse_n 32._o the_o former_a of_o which_o say_n mr._n rutherford_n himself_o do_v understand_v of_o a_o college_n prophet_n have_v a_o power_n dogmatic_a of_o judge_v and_o censure_v the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o prophet_n deliver_v what_o they_o speak_v say_v he_o page_z 467._o be_v to_o be_v judge_v and_o put_v under_o censure_n for_o the_o whole_a college_n must_v judge_v for_o which_o he_o allege_v verse_n 29._o and_o a_o little_a after_o this_o be_v not_o a_o power_n of_o judge_v which_o every_o christian_a have_v for_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d say_v piscator_fw-la do_v relate_v to_o the_o prophet_n who_o be_v to_o judge_v but_o as_o â—_o take_v it_o a_o prophetical_a judge_n which_o may_v warrant_v the_o juridical_a power_n of_o a_o presbytery_n etc._n etc._n by_o all_o which_o it_o plain_o appear_v that_o when_o the_o prophet_n do_v prophesy_v the_o other_o prophet_n be_v to_o be_v present_a to_o hear_v and_o judge_v of_o the_o doctrine_n deliver_v and_o if_o so_o how_o can_v it_o be_v that_o they_o prophesy_v in_o several_a congregation_n at_o the_o same_o time_n for_o have_v it_o be_v so_o they_o can_v not_o have_v judge_v of_o one_o another_o doctrine_n which_o they_o can_v not_o hear_v be_v themselves_o at_o that_o time_n employ_v in_o speak_v in_o some_o other_o place_n and_o therefore_o it_o seem_v more_o likely_a that_o they_o meet_v in_o one_o congregation_n where_o they_o may_v all_o prophecy_n first_o one_o and_o then_o another_o some_o at_o one_o time_n and_o some_o at_o another_o and_o so_o all_o of_o they_o may_v also_o hear_v and_o learn_v and_o judge_v of_o the_o doctrine_n deliver_v by_o other_o chap._n xv._n whether_o the_o church_n at_o ephesus_n be_v more_o in_o number_n then_o corinth_n and_o jerusalem_n and_o the_o judgement_n of_o mr._n baynes_n whether_o that_o church_n be_v many_o congregation_n or_o one_o only_o pag_n 470._o have_v suggest_v sundry_a thing_n to_o prove_v that_o ephesus_n be_v many_o congregation_n and_o yet_o but_o one_o church_n he_o conclude_v this_o viz._n upon_o these_o consideration_n i_o leave_v to_o our_o reverend_a brethren_n their_o judgement_n if_o mr._n mather_n and_o mr._n thompson_n say_v right_a we_o do_v not_o think_v they_o be_v more_o in_o number_n at_o ephesus_n then_o in_o corinth_n and_o jerusalem_n where_o the_o christian_n meet_v all_o in_o one_o place_n answ_n the_o exception_n then_o which_o in_o this_o place_n be_v take_v against_o mr._n thompson_n and_o i_o be_v for_o this_o that_o we_o do_v not_o think_v the_o christian_n at_o ephesus_n to_o be_v more_o in_o number_n then_o at_o jerusalem_n and_o corinth_n concern_v which_o i_o will_v not_o say_v much_o but_o only_o this_o that_o as_o we_o have_v only_o deliver_v what_o we_o think_v in_o this_o matter_n without_o determine_v or_o assert_v any_o thing_n peremptory_o so_o we_o shall_v ready_o embrace_v the_o contrary_a when_o good_a ground_n shall_v be_v show_v for_o the_o same_o which_o though_o we_o do_v not_o yet_o perceive_v to_o be_v perform_v in_o all_o that_o mr._n rutherford_n have_v say_v yet_o i_o will_v not_o here_o spend_v time_n in_o examine_v the_o same_o because_o i_o do_v not_o count_v this_o point_n of_o so_o much_o importance_n concern_v the_o principal_a thing_n in_o question_n for_o whether_o the_o church_n at_o ephesus_n be_v more_o in_o number_n then_o corinth_n and_o jerusalem_n or_o whether_o it_o be_v otherwise_o there_o be_v no_o great_a matter_n in_o this_o as_o touch_v the_o main_a question_n for_o if_o all_o of_o they_o be_v such_o church_n as_o may_v usual_o meet_v together_o in_o one_o congregation_n as_o i_o conceive_v they_o be_v it_o matter_n not_o much_o which_o of_o they_o be_v most_o in_o number_n but_o do_v not_o m._n rutherford_n prove_v that_o the_o one_o church_n at_o ephesus_n be_v more_o than_o one_o congregation_n i_o confess_v he_o have_v sundry_a thing_n in_o the_o precedent_a page_n which_o he_o intend_v that_o way_n but_o in_o asmuch_o as_o they_o do_v not_o concern_v m._n tompson_n and_o i_o in_o particular_a nor_o be_v by_o he_o apply_v against_o any_o passage_n in_o the_o answer_n i_o will_v therefore_o pass_v they_o over_o more_o brief_o my_o purpose_n be_v chief_o to_o consider_v of_o such_o particular_n wherein_o he_o take_v exception_n against_o the_o answer_n only_o thus_o much_o i_o will_v advertise_v the_o reader_n that_o a_o good_a part_n of_o that_o which_o mr._n rutherf_n bring_v to_o prove_v many_o congregation_n in_o one_o church_n at_o ephesus_n have_v be_v answer_v long_o ago_o by_o mr._n baynes_n in_o his_o diocesan_n trial_n pag._n 5._o which_o i_o the_o rather_o commend_v to_o mr._n rutherford_n consideration_n because_o he_o count_v he_o a_o man_n of_o worth_n call_v he_o worthy_a baynes_n and_o for_o the_o help_n of_o such_o reader_n as_o can_v ready_o come_v to_o the_o book_n itself_o i_o will_v here_o transcribe_v a_o few_o line_n out_o of_o the_o same_o worthy_a baynes_n as_o they_o be_v to_o be_v find_v in_o his_o diocese_n trial_n p._n 5_o 6._o viz._n the_o church_n of_o ephesus_n be_v but_o one_o flock_n first_o it_o be_v likely_a that_o it_o be_v of_o no_o other_o form_n then_o the_o other_o sir_n jerusalem_n antioch_n and_o corinth_n which_o he_o have_v before_o show_v to_o be_v each_o of_o they_o one_o congregation_n second_o it_o be_v but_o one_o flock_n that_o which_o presbyter_n may_v joint_o feed_v they_o have_v no_o diocesan_n paster_n if_o presbyter_n only_o than_o none_o but_o parishonall_a church_n in_o and_o about_o ephesus_n theremay_v be_v many_o flock_n but_o god_n ordain_v none_o but_o such_o as_o may_v whole_o meet_v with_o those_o who_o have_v the_o care_n of_o feed_v and_o govern_v of_o they_o peter_n indeed_o 1_o pet._n 5._o 2._o call_v all_o those_o he_o write_v unto_o one_o flock_n but_o that_o be_v in_o regard_n either_o of_o the_o mystical_a estate_n of_o the_o faithful_a or_o in_o respect_n of_o the_o common_a nature_n which_o be_v in_o all_o church_n one_o and_o the_o same_o but_o proper_o and_o in_o external_a adunation_n one_o flock_n be_v but_o one_o congregation_n three_o parish_n according_a to_o the_o adverse_a opinion_n be_v not_o then_o divide_v neither_o do_v the_o long_a and_o fruitful_a labour_n of_o the_o apostle_n argue_v that_o there_o shall_v be_v parish_n church_n in_o diocesan_n wise_a add_v but_o a_o great_a number_n of_o sister_n church_n but_o when_o it_o be_v say_v that_o all_o asia_n do_v hear_v the_o meaning_n be_v that_o from_o hand_n to_o hand_n it_o do_v run_v through_o asia_n so_o as_o church_n be_v plant_v every_o where_o even_o where_o paul_n come_v not_o as_o at_o colosse_n there_o may_v be_v many_o church_n in_o asia_n and_o many_o convert_v by_o peter_n and_o other_o fruitful_a labour_n without_o subordination_n of_o church_n chap._n xvi_o whether_o the_o church_n at_o antioch_n be_v only_o one_o congregation_n and_o whether_o act_v 14._o 27._o and_o 15._o 30._o do_v not_o prove_v the_o affirmative_a the_o answer_n have_v in_o pag._n 5._o allege_a acts._n 14._o 27._o and_o 15._o 30_o 31._o to_o prove_v that_o the_o church_n at_o antioch_n be_v no_o more_o than_o may_v be_v gather_v together_o into_o one_o place_n mr._n rutherford_n in_o answer_n hereto_o say_v p._n 472_o 473._o that_o the_o place_n act_v 14._o 27._o be_v the_o representative_a church_n and_o that_o he_o believe_v the_o assemble_v of_o the_o multitude_n act_v 15._o vers_fw-la 30._o must_v be_v take_v distributive_o answ_n this_o answer_n of_o mr._n rutherford_n to_o the_o former_a place_n be_v remove_v long_o ago_o by_o worthy_a mr._n baynes_n who_o also_o understand_v the_o latter_a place_n as_o we_o do_v and_o not_o as_o mr._n rutherford_n for_o in_o his_o diocese_n trial_n maintain_v this_o position_n that_o the_o church_n institute_v by_o the_o apostle_n be_v only_o such_o as_o may_v meet_v in_o one_o congregation_n ordinary_o and_o give_v this_o very_a place_n and_o instance_n of_o the_o church_n of_o antioch_n for_o one_o of_o his_o ground_n for_o confirm_v the_o say_a position_n p._n 5._o he_o come_v immediate_o thereupon_o to_o answer_v a_o objection_n which_o be_v the_o very_a same_o that_o here_o mr._n rutherford_n bring_v to_o the_o former_a place_n viz._n that_o the_o church_n mention_v in_o that_o place_n be_v the_o minister_n or_o representative_a church_n for_o the_o remove_n whereof_o mr._n baynes_n return_v 4._o thing_n 1._o that_o the_o word_n church_n be_v never_o so_o
read_v in_o one_o assembly_n and_o another_o in_o another_o whereof_o in_o the_o present_a case_n there_o be_v not_o so_o much_o as_o the_o least_o hint_n and_o if_o we_o will_v imagine_v such_o a_o matter_n for_o which_o there_o be_v small_a reason_n yet_o since_o it_o be_v judas_n and_o silas_n by_o who_o this_o epistle_n be_v send_v and_o who_o be_v to_o tell_v the_o same_o thing_n by_o mouth_n and_o who_o also_o upon_o the_o deliver_n of_o the_o epistle_n exhort_v the_o brother_n of_o antioch_n with_o many_o word_n as_o be_v clear_a vers_fw-la 22_o 23_o 27_o 32._o judas_n and_o silaâ—_n i_o say_v be_v but_o two_o man_n can_v not_o be_v present_a and_o speak_v and_o act_v these_o thing_n in_o many_o assembly_n at_o once_o but_o must_v of_o necessity_n be_v both_o in_o one_o assembly_n or_o at_o the_o most_o in_o two_o but_o the_o text_n make_v no_o mention_n of_o their_o be_v in_o two_o but_o plain_o enough_o intimate_v the_o contrary_a that_o they_o be_v both_o together_o and_o yet_o where_o they_o be_v present_a there_o be_v the_o multitude_n gather_v together_o to_o receive_v the_o epistle_n by_o their_o hand_n and_o to_o hear_v the_o report_n and_o word_n of_o exhortation_n at_o their_o mouth_n unless_o therefore_o we_o will_v imagine_v that_o judas_n and_o silas_n can_v be_v present_a and_o act_n in_o many_o assembly_n at_o once_o there_o be_v no_o reason_n to_o think_v this_o multitude_n among_o who_o they_o be_v present_a and_o act_v to_o be_v many_o congregation_n or_o assembly_n and_o therefore_o for_o his_o conclusion_n pag._n 475_o 476._o that_o the_o mention_v of_o one_o multitude_n in_o the_o singular_a number_n act_v 15._o 30._o can_v never_o prove_v that_o there_o be_v but_o one_o single_a congregation_n at_o antioch_n the_o answer_n be_v that_o we_o do_v not_o lay_v the_o force_n of_o our_o reason_n in_o the_o mention_v of_o the_o multitude_n in_o the_o singular_a number_n and_o therefore_o it_o can_v not_o thus_o be_v satisfy_v or_o put_v off_o for_o our_o word_n be_v these_o the_o whole_a multitude_n of_o they_o be_v gather_v together_o at_o the_o return_n of_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n from_o the_o synod_n at_o jerusalem_n to_o hear_v the_o epistle_n read_v which_o be_v send_v from_o that_o synod_n answer_v p._n 50._o wherein_o it_o be_v easy_a to_o perceive_v that_o we_o lay_v the_o force_n of_o our_o reason_n not_o in_o this_o that_o the_o church_n be_v call_v a_o multitude_n in_o the_o singular_a number_n but_o in_o this_o that_o the_o whole_a multitude_n be_v gather_v together_o for_o such_o a_o end_n as_o there_o be_v express_v and_o this_o we_o still_o conceive_v may_v prove_v the_o point_n for_o a_o church_n which_o be_v such_o a_o multitude_n as_o be_v gather_v together_o for_o the_o receive_n of_o one_o epistle_n which_o be_v send_v unto_o they_o all_o and_o which_o be_v gather_v together_o to_o hear_v the_o epistle_n read_v and_o also_o to_o hear_v the_o same_o thing_n by_o mouth_n the_o man_n from_o who_o mouth_n they_o must_v so_o hear_v and_o from_o who_o hand_n they_o must_v so_o receive_v be_v no_o more_o but_o two_o such_o a_o church_n as_o this_o can_v be_v no_o more_o but_o one_o congregation_n or_o assembly_n now_o antioch_n be_v such_o a_o church_n and_o therefore_o be_v no_o more_o but_o one_o congregation_n if_o this_o conclusion_n be_v not_o grant_v some_o way_n must_v be_v devise_v how_o many_o several_a assembly_n may_v all_o be_v receiver_n and_o hearer_n of_o one_o and_o the_o same_o epistle_n at_o the_o same_o time_n there_o be_v but_o one_o copy_n of_o the_o epistle_n as_o also_o how_o they_o may_v at_o one_o time_n hear_v the_o same_o thing_n declare_v to_o they_o by_o mouth_n when_o there_o be_v but_o two_o man_n to_o declare_v the_o same_o and_o when_o such_o a_o way_n be_v find_v out_o we_o may_v then_o further_o consider_v thereof_o but_o in_o the_o mean_a time_n the_o ground_n and_o reason_n allege_v do_v induce_v i_o to_o think_v that_o antioch_n where_o those_o thing_n be_v thus_o do_v be_v indeed_o but_o one_o congregation_n chap._n xvii_o whether_o no_o liberty_n be_v give_v by_o christ_n to_o the_o people_n but_o woman_n must_v exercise_v the_o same_o as_o well_o as_o man_n and_o of_o the_o people_n liberty_n about_o ordination_n or_o the_o call_v of_o minister_n in_o the_o answer_n p._n 8._o we_o have_v these_o word_n viz._n govern_v proper_o so_o call_v we_o acknowledge_v not_o in_o any_o but_o in_o the_o elder_n alone_o 1_o cor._n 12._o vers_fw-la 28._o rom._n 12._o 8._o heb._n 13._o 17._o if_o that_o word_n be_v ascribe_v to_o the_o people_n it_o must_v be_v understand_v in_o a_o more_o improper_a sense_n for_o that_o which_o impropriety_n of_o speech_n be_v more_o fit_o call_v liberty_n or_o privilege_n and_o yet_o this_o liberty_n when_o it_o be_v exercise_v about_o ordination_n deposition_n excommunication_n etc._n etc._n be_v of_o the_o whole_a body_n communiter_fw-la or_o in_o general_a but_o not_o of_o all_o and_o every_o member_n in_o particular_a as_o you_o conceive_v we_o to_o hold_v for_o woman_n and_o child_n be_v member_n and_o yet_o be_v not_o to_o act_v in_o such_o matter_n the_o one_o be_v debar_v by_o their_o sex_n and_o the_o other_o for_o want_n of_o understanding_n and_o discretion_n this_o passage_n mr._n rutherford_n have_v relate_v though_o with_o some_o variation_n in_o his_o pag._n 476_o in_o answer_n thereto_o he_o say_v thus_o p._n 477._o if_o there_o be_v no_o govern_v power_n in_o woman_n nor_o any_o act_n at_o all_o in_o excommunication_n you_o lose_v many_o argument_n that_o you_o bring_v 1_o cor._n 5._o to_o prove_v that_o all_o have_v hand_n in_o excommunication_n 1._o because_o paul_n write_v to_o all_o 2._o all_o be_v to_o mourn_v 3._o all_o be_v to_o forbear_v the_o company_n of_o the_o excommunicate_v then_o belike_o paul_n write_v not_o to_o all_o saint_n at_o corinth_n not_o to_o woman_n and_o woman_n be_v not_o to_o mourn_v for_o the_o scandal_n nor_o to_o forbear_v his_o company_n answ_n if_o mr._n tompson_n and_o i_o do_v be_v such_o argument_n from_o 1_o cor._n 5._o why_o be_v not_o the_o place_n quote_v where_o we_o do_v bring_v they_o i_o suppose_v there_o be_v no_o such_o place_n at_o all_o that_o can_v be_v produce_v and_o therefore_o i_o desire_v so_o much_o favour_n that_o what_o we_o never_o say_v may_v not_o be_v impute_v to_o we_o nor_o divulge_v abroad_o as_o we_o if_o other_o do_v bring_v such_o argument_n from_o 1_o cor._n 5._o they_o that_o bring_v they_o be_v able_a to_o speak_v for_o themselves_o and_o to_o give_v account_n of_o their_o own_o argument_n but_o i_o know_v no_o reason_n that_o do_v require_v that_o we_o shall_v be_v draw_v to_o defend_v such_o argument_n as_o we_o never_o use_v nor_o that_o do_v allow_v our_o reverend_a brother_n to_o report_v such_o argument_n as_o we_o which_o have_v never_o be_v use_v by_o we_o i_o count_v it_o therefore_o a_o impertinent_a digression_n to_o spend_v time_n in_o the_o defence_n of_o they_o the_o privilege_n say_v he_o be_v a_o part_n of_o liberty_n purchase_v by_o christ_n body_n it_o must_v be_v due_a to_o 〈…〉_z for_o the_o liberty_n wherewith_o christ_n have_v make_v woman_n free_a can_v be_v take_v away_o 〈…〉_z of_o god_n from_o their_o sex_n except_o in_o christ_n jesus_n there_o be_v a_o difference_n between_o jew_n and_o gentile_n male_a and_o female_a answ_n that_o which_o be_v in_o the_o people_n we_o say_v in_o propriety_n of_o speech_n be_v more_o â—itly_o call_v liberty_n or_o privilege_n but_o of_o liberty_n purchase_v by_o christ_n body_n or_o blood_n we_o make_v no_o mention_n at_o all_o and_o therefore_o our_o brother_n may_v have_v spare_v speech_n thereof_o but_o it_o be_v true_a indeed_o that_o the_o people_n can_v have_v no_o liberty_n but_o woman_n also_o may_v exercise_v the_o 〈…〉_z else_o their_o liberty_n purchase_v for_o they_o by_o christ_n be_v take_v away_o it_o seem_v he_o so_o conceive_v but_o then_o i_o desire_v to_o know_v how_o his_o own_o doctrine_n elsewhere_o and_o the_o apostle_n wâ—â—ds_n can_v stand_v together_o for_o in_o one_o place_n he_o say_v that_o act_v 14._o 23._o prove_v that_o elder_n ordain_v elder_a with_o lift_v up_o of_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o people_n and_o this_o say_v he_o be_v 〈…〉_z doctrine_n due_a right_o p._n 190._o and_o in_o another_o place_n he_o say_v the_o people_n have_v god_n right_a to_o choose_v minister_n for_o so_o the_o word_n prescribe_v for_o which_o in_o his_o margin_n he_o allege_v 〈◊〉_d several_a text_n of_o scripture_n act_v 15._o 22._o 1_o cor._n 16._o 3._o 2._o cor._n 8._o 19_o act_n 6._o 4._o act_n 14._o 23._o and_o in_o his_o text_n allege_v tertullian_n cyprian_n ambrose_n origen_n chrysostome_n the_o council_n
frequent_o call_v by_o the_o name_n of_o a_o church_n we_o in_o answer_n to_o the_o former_a of_o these_o do_v give_v many_o instance_n p._n 31_o 32._o where_o a_o single_a congregation_n be_v call_v by_o the_o name_n of_o a_o church_n not_o only_o in_o 1_o cor._n 14._o which_o mr._n herle_n acknowledge_v though_o with_o a_o perhaps_o but_o also_o in_o sundry_a other_o scripture_n which_o here_o mr._n rutherford_n quote_v now_o let_v we_o hear_v his_o answer_n to_o this_o passage_n we_o seek_v no_o more_o say_v he_o answ_n be_v we_o then_o agree_v that_o in_o scripture_n language_n the_o word_n church_n be_v sundry_a time_n give_v to_o a_o single_a congregation_n if_o so_o then_o for_o this_o point_n the_o answer_n be_v not_o confute_v but_o confirm_v if_o it_o be_v call_v a_o church_n which_o conveen_v for_o performance_n of_o spiritual_a duty_n as_o some_o of_o your_o place_n do_v well_o prove_v ergo_fw-la no_o assembly_n shall_v have_v the_o name_n of_o church_n but_o such_o as_o assemble_v for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n this_o now_o you_o cannâ—t_v affirm_v and_o it_o follow_v not_o answ_n if_o this_o follow_v not_o what_o need_v it_o we_o never_o affirm_v it_o and_o our_o purpose_n that_o the_o word_n church_n be_v give_v in_o scripture_n to_o a_o single_a congregation_n be_v sufficient_o gain_v without_o it_o the_o church_n speak_v of_o matth._n 18._o be_v not_o assemble_v to_o word_n and_o sacrament_n but_o to_o bind_v and_o loose_v the_o meeting_n 1_o cor._n 5._o be_v not_o for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n but_o to_o deliver_v to_o satan_n the_o word_n church_n act._n 14._o 27._o be_v not_o a_o assembly_n for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n but_o to_o hear_v how_o god_n have_v open_v the_o door_n of_o faith_n unto_o the_o gentile_n if_o to_o be_v receive_v of_o the_o church_n act._n 15._o 4._o be_v matter_n of_o word_n and_o sacrament_n let_v all_o judge_n if_o to_o send_v a_o decree_n of_o a_o synod_n act._n 15._o 22._o be_v the_o act_n of_o a_o church_n assemble_v for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n let_v the_o world_n judge_n answ_n reverend_a sir_n keep_v to_o the_o point_n we_o never_o say_v that_o discipline_n and_o all_o other_o act_n whether_o perform_v by_o a_o church_n be_v word_n and_o sacrament_n and_o therefore_o there_o be_v no_o need_n to_o prove_v they_o be_v not_o and_o then_o to_o triumph_v as_o in_o a_o great_a victory_n the_o thing_n in_o question_n be_v this_o whether_o the_o name_n or_o word_n church_n be_v give_v in_o scripture_n to_o a_o single_a congregation_n and_o if_o this_o be_v prove_v as_o the_o instance_n give_v i_o hope_v do_v prove_v it_o sufficien_o than_o it_o matter_n not_o what_o that_o particular_a spiritual_a church_n action_n be_v for_o which_o they_o do_v meet_v for_o whether_o it_o be_v that_o they_o meet_v for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n alone_o or_o whether_o it_o be_v for_o the_o word_n and_o prayer_n alone_o and_o not_o at_o that_o time_n for_o sacrament_n at_o all_o or_o whether_o it_o be_v for_o discipline_n or_o for_o any_o other_o church_n duty_n yet_o still_o if_o they_o come_v together_o into_o one_o place_n be_v it_o for_o all_o or_o for_o any_o of_o these_o end_n they_o be_v then_o a_o congregation_n for_o what_o be_v a_o congregation_n but_o a_o company_n so_o assemble_v in_o one_o place_n and_o so_o our_o tenet_n stand_v good_a and_o our_o purpose_n be_v gain_v for_o if_o they_o that_o come_v together_o into_o one_o place_n for_o church_n action_n and_o end_n be_v call_v in_o scripture_n by_o the_o name_n of_o a_o church_n than_o the_o word_n church_n be_v give_v to_o a_o company_n that_o so_o come_v together_o and_o such_o a_o company_n be_v a_o congregation_n it_o follow_v that_o the_o word_n church_n be_v use_v for_o a_o congregation_n what_o this_o congregation_n do_v when_o they_o be_v come_v together_o be_v not_o the_o question_n but_o if_o a_o congregation_n come_v together_o for_o church_n duty_n be_v in_o scripture_n call_v a_o church_n we_o have_v our_o intent_n if_o the_o word_n church_n be_v a_o meeting_n of_o person_n assemble_v to_o one_o place_n for_o spiritual_a duty_n sometime_o for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n only_o sometime_o for_o act_n of_o jurisdiction_n only_o then_o be_v the_o word_n church_n by_o our_o brethren_n argument_n take_v both_o for_o the_o congregation_n and_o for_o the_o elder_n of_o one_o or_o of_o divers_a church_n and_o so_o we_o have_v our_o intent_n answ_n let_v the_o antecedent_n be_v grant_v yet_o the_o consequence_n be_v deny_v for_o the_o word_n church_n may_v be_v a_o meeting_n assemble_v sometime_o for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n only_o and_o sometime_o for_o act_n of_o jurisdiction_n only_o and_o i_o add_v sometime_o for_o the_o word_n and_o prayer_n only_o without_o exercise_n of_o jurisdiction_n or_o sacrament_n and_o sometime_o for_o some_o other_o act_n or_o act_n than_o any_o of_o these_o that_o be_v name_v and_o yet_o for_o all_o this_o it_o may_v not_o be_v take_v for_o the_o elder_n alone_o of_o one_o church_n and_o much_o less_o for_o the_o elder_n of_o divers_a church_n the_o reason_n be_v because_o all_o these_o act_n may_v be_v perform_v by_o the_o congregation_n assemble_v sometime_o for_o one_o of_o they_o and_o sometime_o for_o another_o and_o therefore_o your_o intent_n be_v not_o yet_o attain_v who_o will_v have_v the_o word_n church_n to_o be_v take_v sometime_o for_o the_o congregation_n and_o sometime_o for_o the_o presbyter_n or_o elder_n alone_o we_o desire_v our_o brethren_n to_o prove_v which_o they_o must_v if_o they_o oppose_v our_o principle_n that_o the_o word_n church_n be_v never_o take_v for_o the_o eldership_n alore_n in_o all_o the_o word_n of_o god_n answ_n must_v we_o prove_v a_o negative_a and_o be_v that_o say_n affirmanti_fw-la incumbit_fw-la â—â—us_fw-la probandi_fw-la now_o become_v unreasonable_a unnecessary_a or_o of_o no_o force_n for_o my_o part_n i_o be_o still_o of_o the_o mind_n that_o he_o that_o affirm_v must_v in_o equity_n and_o reason_n prove_v what_o he_o affirm_v beside_o for_o ourselves_o we_o have_v this_o to_o say_v further_o that_o if_o we_o prove_v what_o we_o undertake_v we_o have_v do_v as_o much_o as_o can_v in_o reason_n be_v require_v of_o we_o though_o we_o do_v not_o prove_v this_o that_o mr._n rutherford_n will_v impose_v upon_o we_o and_o what_o be_v that_o which_o we_o undertake_v to_o prove_v nothing_o in_o this_o place_n but_o only_o this_o that_o the_o word_n church_n be_v take_v for_o a_o congregation_n in_o other_o scripture_n beside_o 1_o cor._n 14._o and_o this_o we_o have_v perform_v and_o prove_v already_o mr._n rutherford_n himself_o allow_v some_o of_o our_o proof_n for_o good_a and_o therefore_o have_v perform_v this_o point_n it_o be_v more_o than_o needs_o to_o be_v require_v of_o we_o to_o prove_v another_o also_o which_o we_o never_o undertake_v to_o prove_v as_o be_v quite_o beside_o our_o question_n which_o we_o be_v and_o still_o be_v desirous_a to_o keep_v close_o unto_o and_o not_o to_o wonder_v or_o be_v divert_v from_o it_o by_o any_o mean_n whereas_o our_o brethren_n say_v a_o company_n gather_v into_o one_o place_n which_o be_v nothing_o else_o but_o a_o congregation_n be_v call_v by_o the_o name_n of_o a_o church_n i_o answer_v such_o a_o company_n be_v only_o i_o suppose_v this_o be_v misprint_v for_o be_v not_o only_o call_v by_o the_o name_n of_o a_o church_n for_o a_o company_n meet_v for_o discipline_n only_o be_v a_o church_n also_o answ_n if_o a_o company_n gather_v into_o one_o place_n which_o be_v a_o congregation_n be_v call_v by_o the_o name_n of_o a_o church_n this_o be_v as_o much_o as_o we_o desire_v for_o our_o tenant_n be_v herein_o express_o grant_v to_o be_v true_a if_o a_o company_n meet_v for_o discipline_n only_o be_v a_o church_n also_o yet_o as_o long_o as_o the_o former_a be_v not_o deny_v the_o add_v of_o this_o other_o do_v no_o hurt_n to_o we_o at_o all_o it_o be_v false_a that_o a_o company_n gather_v into_o one_o place_n be_v nothing_o else_o but_o a_o congregation_n answ_n bona_fw-la verba_fw-la quaso_fw-es we_o have_v think_v that_o as_o a_o company_n assemble_v be_v a_o assembly_n a_o company_n meet_v be_v a_o meeting_n a_o company_n convocate_v a_o convocation_n so_o a_o company_n gather_v together_o or_o congregat_v have_v be_v a_o congregation_n but_o this_o be_v peremptory_o now_o condemn_v as_o false_a yet_o let_v we_o hear_v why_o as_o you_o take_v the_o word_n congregation_n for_o so_o your_o congregation_n be_v a_o assembly_n of_o man_n and_o woman_n meet_v for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n with_o the_o elder_n of_o the_o church_n answ_n and_o what_o if_o they_o meet_v for_o prayer_n also_o what_o if_o for_o the_o word_n and_o prayer_n without_o sacrament_n for_o this_o or_o
that_o time_n what_o if_o they_o meet_v for_o the_o admission_n of_o member_n also_o or_o for_o censure_v delinquent_n can_v mr._n rutherford_n prove_v that_o either_o of_o we_o i_o mean_v either_o mr._n tompson_n or_o myself_o or_o indeed_o any_o man_n else_o of_o that_o judgement_n which_o he_o oppose_v have_v deny_v a_o assembly_n meet_v for_o such_o end_n as_o these_o to_o be_v a_o congregation_n i_o suppose_v he_o can_v and_o therefore_o it_o be_v not_o well_o do_v to_o impute_v unto_o we_o such_o a_o sense_n of_o the_o word_n congregation_n as_o we_o never_o speak_v nor_o think_v of_o and_o then_o to_o say_v it_o be_v false_a that_o a_o company_n gather_v into_o one_o place_n be_v a_o congregation_n as_o that_o word_n be_v take_v by_o we_o i_o appeal_v to_o the_o judgement_n of_o our_o reverend_a brethren_n if_o the_o church_n matth._n 18._o assemble_v to_o to_o bind_v and_o loose_v if_o the_o church_n assemble_v 1_o corin._n 5._o to_o deliver_v to_o satan_n and_o sundry_a other_o be_v there_o name_v to_o the_o like_a purpose_n be_v a_o congregationall_a church_n assemble_v for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n answ_n if_o the_o word_n and_o sacrament_n be_v not_o mention_v in_o the_o place_n allege_v but_o other_o action_n and_o duty_n must_v it_o need_v follow_v that_o the_o church_n speak_v of_o in_o these_o place_n do_v assemble_v for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n may_v not_o one_o and_o the_o same_o church_n assemble_v for_o diverse_a end_n and_o action_n yea_o possible_o for_o diverse_a upon_o one_o day_n at_o the_o least_o wise_a it_o can_v be_v deny_v but_o at_o several_a time_n of_o assemble_v a_o church_n may_v attend_v to_o diverse_a duty_n and_o action_n and_o yet_o still_o be_v one_o and_o the_o same_o congregation_n or_o church_n at_o one_o time_n which_o they_o be_v at_o another_o or_o otherwise_o we_o must_v say_v which_o be_v a_o very_a unwise_a saying_n that_o a_o church_n meet_v for_o diverse_a action_n to_o be_v perform_v upon_o one_o day_n as_o the_o word_n prayer_n psalm_n sacrament_n etc._n etc._n be_v not_o the_o same_o church_n be_v one_o of_o these_o action_n that_o it_o be_v in_o another_o but_o be_v one_o church_n when_o they_o be_v at_o prayer_n another_o when_o they_o be_v sing_v psalm_n another_o when_o they_o be_v in_o exercise_n of_o the_o word_n or_o sacrament_n etc._n etc._n or_o if_o they_o meet_v one_o day_n for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n and_o another_o day_n for_o word_n and_o prayer_n without_o sacrament_n that_o nâ—w_o they_o be_v diverse_a church_n and_o not_o the_o same_o upon_o one_o of_o these_o day_n that_o they_o be_v upon_o another_o the_o nature_n and_o kind_n of_o their_o church_n be_v alter_v according_a to_o the_o several_a duty_n wherein_o they_o be_v exercise_v this_o argue_v i_o suppose_v mr._n rutherford_n will_v not_o own_v for_o good_a and_o yet_o for_o aught_o i_o see_v it_o be_v no_o worse_o but_o the_o very_a same_o with_o that_o which_o himself_o do_v here_o use_v who_o because_o the_o church_n mention_v matth._n 18._o 1_o corinth_n 5._o and_o other_o place_n by_o he_o name_v be_v say_v to_o meet_v for_o discipline_n or_o other_o duty_n will_v thereupon_o have_v it_o think_v that_o the_o church_n mention_v in_o those_o place_n be_v not_o a_o church_n that_o do_v ever_o meet_v for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n but_o be_v some_o other_o church_n of_o another_o kind_n which_o argue_v may_v be_v good_a if_o these_o which_o i_o have_v here_o above_o express_v be_v good_a but_o otherwise_o i_o conceive_v it_o can_v stand_v chap._n xxiv_o whether_o those_o child_n of_o israel_n numb_a 8._o 10._o who_o lay_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n be_v elder_n by_o office_n and_o as_o so_o consider_v do_v lay_v on_o their_o hand_n and_o whether_o this_o scripture_n do_v not_o prove_v that_o where_o there_o be_v no_o elder_n to_o be_v have_v there_o some_o principal_a member_n though_o not_o elder_n by_o office_n may_v impose_v hand_n on_o church_n officer_n the_o child_n of_o israel_n which_o be_v not_o the_o church_n officer_n lay_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n numb_a 8._o 10._o therefore_o when_o a_o church_n have_v no_o elder_n the_o people_n may_v confer_v ordination_n and_o it_o be_v not_o to_o be_v tie_v to_o the_o presbyter_n only_o and_o for_o this_o be_v allege_v the_o answer_n pag._n 46._o and_o then_o he_o add_v that_o other_o of_o our_o brethren_n say_v ordination_n be_v but_o accidental_a to_o a_o minister_n call_v and_o may_v be_v want_v if_o the_o people_n shall_v choose_v in_o defect_n of_o elder_n pag._n 491._o answ_n this_o latter_a clause_n shall_v not_o have_v be_v add_v as_o deserve_v a_o confutation_n except_o our_o brother_n will_v confute_v himself_o for_o as_o we_o hear_v afore_o himself_o do_v plain_o affirm_v pag._n 186_o 187._o that_o both_o be_v true_a pastor_n those_o who_o have_v no_o call_n but_o the_o people_n election_n and_o those_o who_o have_v ordination_n by_o pastor_n and_o that_o election_n by_o the_o people_n only_o may_v stand_v for_o ordination_n where_o there_o be_v no_o pastor_n at_o all_o which_o if_o it_o be_v so_o why_o shall_v the_o same_o thing_n in_o effect_n when_o it_o be_v hold_v by_o other_o be_v here_o insert_v in_o a_o objection_n as_o worthy_a to_o be_v speak_v against_o when_o himself_o do_v cast_v the_o very_a same_o it_o be_v marvel_n that_o our_o reverend_a brother_n shall_v thus_o go_v on_o in_o represent_v our_o word_n and_o mind_n amiss_o for_o as_o here_o he_o set_v down_o the_o objection_n under_o our_o name_n some_o of_o our_o word_n be_v change_v and_o alter_v other_o be_v substitute_v in_o their_o place_n some_o be_v whole_o suppress_v as_o if_o there_o have_v be_v none_o such_o and_o other_o be_v add_v as_o 〈◊〉_d which_o never_o come_v from_o we_o of_o the_o first_o sort_n be_v those_o of_o the_o people_n confer_v ordination_n whereas_o our_o word_n be_v not_o so_o but_o that_o the_o people_n may_v impose_v or_o lay_v on_o hand_n now_o between_o these_o two_o himself_o pag._n 492._o do_v make_v a_o great_a difference_n even_o as_o much_o as_o between_o the_o authoritative_a call_n of_o a_o minister_n and_o a_o rite_n annex_v to_o that_o call_n and_o further_o say_v that_o though_o he_o think_v imposition_n of_o handâ—_n not_o so_o essential_a perhaps_o at_o that_o a_o minister_n can_v be_v no_o minister_n without_o it_o yet_o of_o ordination_n he_o think_v otherwise_o and_o if_o he_o make_v so_o great_a a_o difference_n between_o imposition_n of_o handâ—_n and_o ordination_n why_o shall_v our_o word_n be_v forsake_v which_o import_n the_o lesser_a matter_n in_o his_o judgement_n and_o those_o other_o which_o he_o account_v do_v import_n much_o more_o be_v substitute_v in_o the_o room_n be_v this_o to_o burden_v our_o opinion_n or_o apprehension_n with_o a_o great_a odium_fw-la then_o our_o word_n in_o his_o own_o judgement_n will_v bear_v or_o be_v it_o to_o make_v his_o confutation_n of_o we_o more_o easy_a than_o it_o will_v have_v be_v if_o our_o own_o word_n have_v be_v retain_v and_o keep_v what_o ever_o be_v the_o cause_n hereof_o we_o can_v but_o think_v it_o have_v be_v better_a if_o it_o have_v be_v otherwise_o for_o omit_v and_o suppress_v some_o word_n of_o we_o which_o be_v the_o second_o particular_a i_o allege_v those_o of_o the_o time_n and_o place_n where_o elder_n can_v convenient_o be_v borrow_v from_o any_o other_o church_n the_o whole_a passage_n be_v this_o viz._n by_o which_o scripture_n to_o wit_n num._n 8._o 10._o thus_o much_o be_v manifest_a that_o when_o a_o châ—rch_n have_v no_o elder_n but_o the_o first_o elder_n themselves_o be_v to_o be_v ordain_v and_o this_o at_o such_o time_n and_o in_o such_o place_n where_o elder_n can_v convenient_o be_v borrow_v from_o any_o other_o church_n in_o such_o case_n imposition_n of_o hand_n may_v lawful_o be_v perform_v by_o some_o principal_a man_n of_o the_o congregation_n although_o they_o be_v not_o elder_n by_o office_n in_o which_o place_n these_o word_n at_o such_o time_n â—nd_v in_o such_o place_n etc._n etc._n though_o they_o contain_v a_o great_a part_n of_o the_o case_n wherein_o we_o think_v imposition_n of_o hand_n may_v be_v perform_v by_o non-elders_a yet_o they_o be_v whole_o conceal_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n as_o if_o there_o have_v be_v none_o such_o for_o what_o purpose_n himself_o best_o know_v but_o this_o be_v apparent_a that_o by_o his_o concealment_n or_o omission_n the_o way_n be_v make_v more_o easy_a and_o the_o ground_n more_o rational_a for_o that_o passage_n of_o he_o in_o the_o follow_a page_n where_o he_o say_v what_o if_o there_o be_v no_o elder_n in_o a_o single_a congregation_n it_o will_v not_o follow_v therefore_o the_o people_n be_v to_o lay_v on_o hand_n except_o say_v he_o there_o be_v
allege_v do_v abundant_o and_o plain_o prove_v the_o point_n in_o hand_n and_o therefore_o mr._n rutherford_n shall_v bear_v with_o we_o if_o we_o sometime_o argue_v from_o example_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n as_o for_o that_o which_o follow_v where_o he_o say_v but_o our_o brethren_n hold_v that_o the_o call_n of_o the_o levite_n and_o of_o the_o pastor_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n be_v different_a as_o the_o officer_n and_o church_n of_o the_o jewish_a and_o christian_a church_n be_v different_a the_o answer_n be_v that_o i_o do_v not_o remember_v that_o we_o have_v speak_v one_o word_n of_o this_o matter_n either_o one_o way_n or_o other_o nor_o do_v he_o mention_v any_o place_n where_o we_o have_v speak_v aught_o of_o these_o thing_n and_o for_o the_o thing_n itself_o though_o many_o difference_n may_v be_v assign_v between_o the_o levite_n and_o pastor_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n and_o between_o the_o jewish_a and_o christian_a church_n yet_o i_o know_v no_o such_o difference_n between_o they_o but_o that_o in_o thing_n which_o be_v of_o general_a and_o common_a nature_n concern_v they_o both_o in_o those_o we_o may_v lawful_o argue_v from_o they_o and_o their_o time_n unto_o ourselves_o and_o our_o time_n if_o mr._n rutherford_n know_v we_o have_v give_v any_o such_o difference_n as_o will_v not_o suffer_v we_o thus_o to_o argue_v when_o he_o shall_v express_v the_o same_o we_o may_v consider_v further_o thereof_o our_o brethren_n grant_v pag._n 49._o that_o it_o want_v all_o example_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n that_o the_o people_n lie_v on_o hand_n answ_n and_o we_o have_v also_o in_o the_o same_o pag._n 49._o render_v the_o reason_n hereof_o viz._n because_o elder_n then_o be_v not_o want_v why_o then_o do_v not_o our_o brother_n ingenuity_n so_o far_o prevail_v with_o he_o as_o to_o mention_v this_o when_o he_o mention_v the_o other_o however_o yet_o this_o he_o may_v be_v please_v to_o observe_v that_o as_o we_o grant_v the_o thing_n he_o speak_v of_o so_o themselves_o i_o think_v must_v grant_v also_o that_o it_o want_v all_o example_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n where_o ordinary_a elder_n do_v impose_v hand_n on_o ordinary_a elder_n for_o my_o part_n i_o remember_v none_o nor_o do_v i_o remember_v that_o themselves_o have_v yet_o produce_v any_o these_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n on_o the_o levite_n numb_a 8._o be_v elder_n and_o our_o brethren_n say_v it_o be_v like_a they_o be_v but_o 1._o they_o do_v not_o as_o elder_n 2._o but_o as_o represent_v the_o people_n not_o as_o elder_n civil_a for_o that_o belong_v to_o aaron_n and_o his_o son_n levit._n 8._o else_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o where_o a_o church_n have_v no_o magistrate_n to_o lay_v on_o hand_n there_o the_o church_n may_v do_v it_o nor_o do_v they_o lie_v on_o hand_n as_o ecclesiastical_a elder_n because_o what_o these_o which_o lay_v on_o hand_n do_v they_o do_v as_o from_o the_o congregation_n for_o 1._o these_o levite_n be_v take_v in_o stead_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v of_o israel_n and_o not_o instead_o of_o the_o first_o bear_v of_o the_o elder_n only_o numb_a 3._o 40_o 41._o 2_o they_o be_v present_v to_o the_o lord_n as_o a_o offering_n of_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n not_o of_o the_o elder_n only_o 3._o when_o the_o multitude_n bring_v a_o oblation_n the_o elder_n put_v their_o hand_n on_o the_o head_n of_o the_o sacrifice_n levit._n 4._o 15._o instead_o of_o all_o the_o multitude_n answ_n in_o relate_v this_o passage_n our_o meaning_n be_v exceed_o mistake_v and_o both_o our_o meaning_n and_o our_o word_n represent_v far_o amiss_o unto_o the_o reader_n the_o particular_n which_o in_o this_o respect_n may_v be_v except_v against_o be_v such_o as_o these_o 1._o that_o report_v we_o to_o say_v it_o be_v like_a they_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n be_v elder_n he_o there_o break_v off_o the_o speech_n and_o so_o suppress_v that_o which_o follow_v wherein_o we_o first_o of_o all_o do_v give_v a_o explication_n in_o what_o respect_n they_o may_v be_v say_v to_o be_v elder_n viz._n as_o be_v the_o chief_a and_o principal_a member_n of_o the_o congregation_n and_o next_o of_o all_o we_o do_v add_v that_o nevertheless_o therein_o example_n do_v prove_v the_o point_n if_o two_o thing_n be_v consider_v which_o there_o we_o do_v express_v but_o both_o these_o particular_n i_o mean_v both_o the_o explication_n and_o the_o addition_n or_o exception_n be_v whole_o suppress_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n and_o so_o the_o concession_n it_o be_v like_a they_o be_v elder_n be_v leave_v stand_v alone_o by_o itself_o 2._o he_o report_v we_o to_o say_v they_o do_v it_o not_o as_o elder_n civil_a for_o that_o belong_v to_o aaron_n and_o his_o son_n wherein_o he_o father_n on_o we_o a_o palpable_a error_n of_o account_v aaron_n and_o his_o son_n to_o be_v elder_n civil_a or_o magistrate_n which_o never_o come_v into_o our_o thought_n nay_o it_o be_v so_o far_o from_o we_o that_o we_o plain_o say_v the_o contrary_a in_o that_o very_a place_n to_o wit_n that_o they_o be_v elder_n ecclesiastical_a our_o word_n be_v these_o if_o they_o that_o be_v the_o child_n of_o israel_n do_v it_o as_o elder_n then_o either_o as_o elder_n and_o governor_n ecclesiastical_a or_o as_o civil_a governor_n but_o not_o the_o first_o for_o that_o charge_n belong_v to_o aaron_n and_o his_o son_n levit._fw-la 8._o and_o these_o levite_n now_o ordain_v in_o which_o word_n we_o plain_o ascribe_v to_o aaron_n and_o his_o son_n the_o charge_n of_o elder_n and_o governor_n ecclesiastical_a but_o not_o of_o civil_a governor_n as_o mr._n rutherford_n be_v please_v to_o report_v 3._o in_o these_o word_n else_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o where_o a_o church_n have_v no_o magistrate_n to_o lay_v on_o hand_n there_o the_o church_n may_v do_v it_o our_o word_n be_v so_o miserable_o mangle_v that_o no_o tolerable_a sense_n can_v appear_v for_o here_o be_v express_v a_o inference_n or_o consequence_n that_o must_v follow_v and_o yet_o no_o ground_n or_o antecedent_n at_o all_o from_o which_o it_o shall_v follow_v which_o be_v to_o represent_v we_o to_o the_o world_n as_o man_n that_o be_v loesi_fw-la cerebro_fw-la for_o man_n that_o be_v in_o their_o right_a wit_n i_o conceive_v will_v scarce_o ever_o argue_v in_o this_o fashion_n as_o here_o we_o be_v report_v to_o do_v but_o our_o word_n be_v these_o if_o the_o second_o be_v say_v viz._n that_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n do_v lay_v on_o hand_n as_o civil_a governor_n than_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o civil_a magistrate_n though_o no_o church-officer_n may_v impose_v hand_n in_o ordination_n of_o church-officer_n and_o so_o the_o point_n be_v gain_v viz._n that_o church-officer_n may_v be_v ordain_v by_o those_o that_o be_v no_o church-officer_n which_o we_o do_v further_o manifest_v in_o the_o follow_a word_n in_o this_o manner_n if_o the_o magistrate_n may_v do_v it_o than_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o a_o church_n that_o have_v no_o magistrate_n may_v perform_v this_o action_n by_o other_o the_o fit_a instrument_n she_o have_v for_o which_o we_o there_o give_v this_o ground_n for_o that_o this_o be_v not_o a_o work_n proper_o tie_v to_o the_o magistrate_n office_n because_o then_o the_o church_n in_o the_o apostle_n time_n want_v magistrate_n can_v not_o have_v have_v officer_n the_o contrary_a whereof_o we_o say_v be_v manifest_a in_o the_o scripture_n act._n 14._o 13._o tit._n 1._o 5._o this_o be_v our_o manner_n of_o argue_v in_o the_o place_n allege_v which_o be_v far_o different_a from_o that_o which_o mr._n rutherford_n report_v as_o we_o 4._o whereas_o he_o report_v we_o to_o say_v nor_o do_v they_o lie_v on_o hand_n as_o ecclesiastical_a elder_n because_o what_o these_o which_o lie_v on_o hand_n do_v they_o do_v as_o from_o the_o congregation_n in_o this_o he_o also_o report_v we_o to_o speak_v quite_o beside_o our_o plain_a meaning_n and_o express_v word_n for_o whereas_o he_o so_o set_v down_o this_o sentence_n as_o that_o the_o latter_a clause_n or_o branch_n therein_o be_v make_v the_o reason_n of_o the_o former_a the_o truth_n be_v this_o that_o these_o clause_n in_o the_o answer_n have_v no_o dependence_n the_o one_o upon_o the_o other_o at_o all_o but_o the_o former_a have_v another_o reason_n give_v for_o it_o which_o here_o be_v not_o mention_v and_o the_o latter_a which_o be_v here_o mention_v as_o the_o reason_n of_o the_o former_a be_v not_o so_o mention_v by_o we_o but_o for_o another_o end_n and_o purpose_n touch_v the_o former_a of_o these_o two_o when_o we_o say_v that_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n do_v not_o impose_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n as_o ecclesiastical_a elder_n the_o reason_n we_o give_v for_o this_o say_n be_v this_o because_o that_o charge_n be_v only_o belong_v to_o aaron_n
and_o his_o son_n and_o those_o levite_n now_o ordain_v which_o reason_n mr._n rutherford_n never_o mention_n but_o mention_n another_o speech_n as_o our_o reason_n which_o be_v deliver_v by_o we_o for_o another_o purpose_n the_o like_a measure_n do_v he_o afford_v to_o we_o in_o the_o second_o branch_n of_o the_o sentence_n by_o he_o express_v for_o whereas_o we_o give_v two_o reason_n of_o the_o main_a thing_n in_o question_n that_o this_o example_n of_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n impose_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n do_v prove_v that_o in_o some_o case_n non-officer_n may_v impose_v hand_n upon_o church_n officer_n the_o one_o because_o what_o these_o child_n of_o israel_n do_v they_o do_v it_o not_o as_o elder_n the_o other_o that_o what_o they_o do_v they_o do_v it_o not_o for_o themselves_o alone_o but_o for_o all_o the_o congregation_n mr._n rutherford_n apply_v not_o these_o two_o reason_n to_o the_o thing_n in_o question_n as_o they_o be_v apply_v by_o we_o but_o instead_o thereof_o make_v one_o of_o they_o to_o be_v a_o reason_n of_o the_o other_o which_o be_v no_o part_n of_o our_o meaning_n nor_o can_v just_o be_v gather_v from_o our_o word_n this_o be_v say_v for_o clear_v this_o passage_n of_o we_o from_o his_o manifold_a mistake_n let_v we_o now_o hear_v his_o answer_n pag._n 49â—_n these_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n do_v it_o as_o a_o work_n peculiar_a to_o the_o elder_n because_o the_o elder_n be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v who_o by_o office_n be_v elder_n and_o in_o who_o stead_n the_o levite_n be_v assume_v numb_a 3._o 40_o 41._o answ_n if_o the_o elder_n be_v but_o a_o part_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v then_o how_o can_v all_o the_o first_o bear_v be_v elder_n by_o office_n or_o if_o all_o the_o first_o bear_v be_v by_o office_n elder_n then_o how_o can_v the_o elder_n be_v but_o a_o part_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v these_o thing_n seem_v not_o to_o be_v here_o but_o be_v it_o so_o that_o the_o elder_n be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v as_o here_o be_v affirm_v how_o do_v this_o prove_v that_o they_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n do_v it_o as_o a_o work_n peculiar_a to_o the_o elder_n be_v there_o any_o necessary_a or_o clear_a consequence_n in_o such_o a_o proposition_n for_o my_o part_n i_o see_v it_o not_o but_o on_o the_o contrary_a i_o suppose_v it_o be_v certain_a that_o the_o elder_n may_v be_v part_n or_o all_o of_o the_o first_o bear_v and_o yet_o they_o who_o do_v the_o work_n of_o impose_v hand_n may_v neither_o impose_v as_o elder_n nor_o of_o necessity_n be_v elder_n though_o in_o the_o sense_n express_v in_o the_o answer_n i_o will_v not_o deny_v but_o there_o may_v be_v elder_n that_o be_v chief_a and_o principal_a member_n of_o the_o congregation_n but_o if_o this_o be_v grant_v in_o the_o sense_n express_v must_v it_o need_v follow_v that_o they_o impose_v hand_n as_o elder_n and_o as_o elder_n by_o office_n too_o can_v a_o man_n sustain_v no_o relation_n but_o all_o his_o action_n must_v be_v action_n of_o that_o relation_n can_v a_o man_n be_v a_o husband_n or_o a_o parent_n etc._n etc._n but_o his_o action_n of_o plough_v sow_v etc._n etc._n must_v needs_o be_v perform_v by_o he_o as_o he_o be_v a_o husband_n or_o parent_n can_v a_o minister_n pray_v in_o his_o family_n instruct_v his_o child_n or_o receive_v the_o bread_n and_o wine_n in_o the_o lord_n supper_n in_o the_o congregation_n but_o all_o these_o thing_n must_v be_v perform_v by_o he_o as_o a_o minister_n i_o suppose_v that_o none_o will_v say_v that_o this_o do_v follow_v and_o if_o not_o then_o suppose_v that_o these_o who_o impose_v hand_n be_v elder_n how_o do_v it_o follow_v that_o when_o they_o impose_v hand_n they_o do_v impose_v as_o elder_n else_o the_o church_n of_o israel_n be_v a_o constitute_v church_n before_o this_o time_n want_v officer_n which_o be_v against_o all_o truth_n answ_n else_o else_o what_o let_v the_o antecedent_n or_o ground_n of_o this_o inference_n be_v take_v from_o the_o word_n precede_v or_o from_o any_o of_o they_o and_o whence_o else_o to_o take_v it_o i_o can_v tell_v and_o no_o necessity_n of_o consequence_n i_o think_v will_v appear_v the_o word_n precede_v be_v no_o more_o but_o these_o these_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n do_v it_o as_o a_o work_n peculiar_a to_o the_o elder_n because_o the_o elder_n be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v who_o by_o office_n be_v elder_n and_o in_o who_o steed_n the_o levite_n be_v assume_v and_o then_o come_v in_o this_o inference_n else_o the_o church_n of_o israel_n want_v officer_n now_o how_o this_o must_v needs_o follow_v upon_o any_o or_o all_o of_o those_o precede_a i_o see_v not_o not_o that_o i_o deny_v the_o truth_n of_o all_o those_o precede_a word_n for_o of_o some_o of_o they_o i_o think_v otherwise_o but_o suppose_v that_o be_v all_o true_a which_o be_v more_o than_o do_v yet_o appear_v yet_o here_o be_v that_o which_o i_o be_o doubtful_a in_o whether_o this_o inference_n must_v needs_o follow_v upon_o the_o same_o for_o aught_o i_o see_v the_o church_n of_o israel_n may_v have_v officer_n and_o yet_o the_o particular_n here_o mention_v not_o be_v all_o true_a but_o some_o of_o they_o false_a notwithstanding_o at_o least_o wise_a if_o they_o be_v true_a yet_o the_o reason_n here_o use_v will_v not_o infer_v so_o much_o for_o to_o consider_v a_o little_a of_o the_o particular_n the_o church_n of_o israel_n have_v officer_n ergo_fw-la the_o elder_n be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v which_o be_v one_o of_o the_o particular_n the_o church_n of_o israel_n have_v officer_n ergo_fw-la the_o first_o bear_v be_v elder_n by_o office_n which_o be_v another_o the_o church_n of_o israel_n have_v officer_n ergo_fw-la the_o levite_n be_v assume_v instead_o of_o the_o first_o bear_v which_o be_v another_o of_o they_o be_v there_o any_o necessity_n of_o consequence_n in_o any_o of_o these_o for_o my_o part_n i_o see_v it_o not_o but_o suppose_v they_o be_v in_o themselves_o true_a yet_o the_o medium_n here_o use_v do_v not_o prove_v they_o so_o to_o be_v and_o for_o that_o which_o be_v the_o first_o and_o as_o i_o conceive_v the_o chief_n to_o wit_n that_o these_o who_o impose_v hand_n do_v it_o as_o a_o work_n peculiar_a to_o elder_n must_v this_o need_v be_v grant_v if_o it_o be_v grant_v that_o the_o church_n of_o israel_n be_v not_o without_o officer_n i_o see_v no_o necessity_n of_o grant_v this_o neither_o but_o the_o contrary_a to_o i_o seem_v possible_a enough_o that_o thou_o may_v be_v officer_n afore_o this_o time_n in_o that_o church_n and_o yet_o what_o be_v now_o do_v by_o they_o who_o impose_v hand_n not_o be_v do_v by_o they_o as_o elder_n by_o office_n but_o as_o prime_n and_o principal_a member_n of_o the_o congregation_n for_o the_o clear_n whereof_o a_o little_a further_o we_o may_v observe_v that_o they_o who_o impose_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n be_v not_o here_o call_v elder_n nor_o ruler_n nor_o officer_n nor_o first_o bear_v nor_o any_o such_o like_a but_o the_o term_n whereby_o they_o be_v express_v be_v this_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n the_o child_n of_o israel_n say_v the_o lord_n shall_v put_v their_o hand_n upon_o the_o levite_n numb_a 8._o 10._o now_o this_o term_n be_v use_v in_o the_o 9_o verse_n immediate_o precede_v and_o in_o the_o 11._o vers_fw-la immediate_o follow_v yet_o in_o neither_o of_o both_o can_v it_o be_v mean_v of_o elder_n and_o officer_n alone_o but_o in_o both_o verse_n be_v undoubted_o mean_v of_o all_o the_o body_n of_o the_o congregation_n and_o therefore_o if_o the_o context_n and_o circumstance_n of_o the_o place_n be_v regard_v these_o child_n of_o israel_n who_o impose_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n v_o 10._o can_v in_o that_o act_n be_v consider_v under_o the_o notâ—on_n of_o officer_n sure_o it_o be_v when_o the_o verse_n before_o tell_v we_o that_o the_o whole_a assembly_n of_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n must_v be_v gather_v together_o and_o the_o verse_n follow_v tell_v we_o that_o aaron_n must_v offer_v the_o levite_n for_o a_o offering_n of_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n in_o neither_o of_o these_o can_v the_o child_n of_o israel_n be_v understand_v of_o the_o officer_n alone_o but_o the_o whole_a congregation_n be_v mean_v hereby_o in_o both_o verse_n reason_n therefore_o require_v that_o this_o ten_o verse_n stand_v in_o the_o midst_n between_o the_o other_o two_o the_o word_n child_n of_o israel_n be_v use_v therein_o shall_v be_v take_v in_o the_o same_o sense_n in_o this_o verse_n in_o which_o it_o be_v take_v in_o the_o verse_n before_o and_o in_o the_o verse_n that_o come_v after_o nay_o and_o further_o he_o that_o shall_v
peruse_v this_o chapter_n numb_a 8._o may_v easy_o find_v that_o this_o word_n the_o child_n of_o israel_n be_v use_v therein_o no_o less_o than_o fifteen_o or_o sixteen_o several_a time_n and_o sometime_o four_o or_o five_o time_n in_o one_o verse_n and_o yet_o of_o all_o these_o i_o think_v here_o be_v not_o so_o much_o as_o one_o where_o it_o can_v be_v understand_v of_o the_o elder_n and_o officer_n as_o such_o but_o be_v use_v to_o signify_v all_o the_o congregation_n and_o therefore_o to_o give_v such_o a_o singular_a interpretation_n of_o this_o word_n in_o v_o 10._o so_o far_o different_a from_o the_o sense_n of_o the_o same_o word_n in_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o verse_n both_o before_o and_o after_o and_o those_o be_v not_o only_o one_o or_o two_o but_o so_o very_a many_o this_o kind_n of_o practice_n and_o interpretation_n have_v need_v to_o be_v build_v upon_o very_o plain_a and_o pregnant_a very_o clear_a and_o cogent_a reason_n and_o demonstration_n or_o else_o our_o brethren_n may_v excuse_v we_o if_o we_o be_v not_o over_o hasty_a and_o forward_a to_o receive_v it_o again_o the_o nine_o and_o eleven_o verse_n tell_v we_o plain_o that_o these_o levite_n be_v to_o be_v offer_v to_o the_o lord_n for_o a_o offering_n not_o of_o the_o elder_n alone_o but_o of_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n even_o of_o all_o the_o assembly_n of_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n and_o other_o scripture_n tell_v we_o as_o plain_o that_o all_o offering_n be_v to_o be_v present_v with_o the_o imposition_n of_o his_o hand_n who_o the_o offering_n be_v levit._n 1._o 3_o 4_o and_o 4._o 24_o 29_o 33._o whereby_o it_o seem_v evident_a that_o these_o child_n of_o israel_n who_o impose_v hand_n on_o these_o levite_n at_o this_o time_n when_o they_o be_v offer_v for_o a_o offering_n be_v the_o whole_a congregation_n or_o some_o in_o your_o name_n and_o stead_n since_o these_o levite_n be_v a_o offering_n of_o the_o whole_a congregation_n we_o grant_v the_o magistrate_n lay_v not_o on_o hand_n but_o they_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n do_v it_o as_o ecclesiastical_a elder_n reconcile_v this_o with_o that_o pag._n 188_o l._n 1._o where_o it_o be_v say_v the_o prince_n and_o head_n of_o tribe_n lay_v hand_n on_o they_o now_o what_o be_v these_o prince_n and_o head_n of_o tribe_n but_o magistrate_n and_o if_o they_o be_v prince_n and_o magistrate_n how_o can_v they_o be_v consider_v in_o this_o act_n as_o ecclesiastical_a elder_n the_o reason_n against_o this_o conclude_v not_o the_o first_o reason_n conclude_v not_o ans_fw-fr here_o again_o our_o meaning_n be_v present_v amiss_o to_o the_o reader_n for_o those_o three_o reason_n of_o we_o be_v give_v by_o we_o to_o prove_v another_o point_n and_o not_o this_o to_o which_o mr._n rutherford_n apply_v therein_o as_o be_v plain_o to_o be_v see_v in_o answer_n pag._n 46_o 47._o where_o the_o reader_n may_v perceive_v that_o those_o reason_n be_v bring_v to_o show_v that_o when_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n impose_v hand_n if_o these_o child_n of_o israel_n be_v not_o all_o the_o congregation_n yet_o what_o they_o perform_v herein_o be_v for_o the_o congregation_n and_o not_o for_o themselves_o only_o and_o if_o those_o reason_n prove_v this_o as_o i_o hope_v they_o do_v it_o be_v no_o great_a disparagement_n to_o they_o not_o we_o if_o they_o prove_v not_o another_o point_n for_o which_o they_o be_v never_o intend_v but_o let_v we_o hear_v the_o answer_n the_o first_o reason_n conclude_v not_o because_o those_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n be_v the_o first_o bear_v who_o by_o office_n be_v churchman_n answ_n how_o shall_v we_o be_v sure_a that_o those_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n be_v the_o first_o bear_v though_o i_o deny_v it_o not_o yet_o a_o bare_a affirmation_n prove_v not_o again_o suppose_v what_o here_o be_v affirm_v be_v also_o sufficient_o confirm_v how_o be_v the_o point_n in_o question_n prove_v hereby_o for_o say_v they_o be_v the_o first_o bear_v they_o may_v notwithstanding_o do_v what_o they_o do_v for_o all_o the_o people_n and_o not_o for_o themselves_o above_o the_o other_o two_o reason_n prove_v nothing_o answ_n let_v they_o be_v apply_v to_o the_o thing_n whereto_o they_o be_v intend_v and_o apply_v by_o we_o and_o then_o let_v the_o reader_n judge_n the_o position_n be_v that_o those_o who_o impose_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n do_v it_o for_o the_o congregation_n or_o in_o their_o stead_n the_o first_o of_o the_o two_o reason_n be_v that_o the_o levite_n be_v the_o congregation_n offering_n and_o all_o offering_n be_v to_o be_v present_v with_o the_o imposition_n of_o his_o hand_n who_o the_o offering_n be_v the_o other_o be_v this_o that_o it_o be_v a_o usual_a thing_n when_o the_o congregation_n be_v to_o present_v a_o offering_n that_o the_o elder_n shall_v impose_v hand_n on_o the_o congregation_n offer_v in_o the_o congregation_n stead_n levit._n 4._o vers_fw-la 14_o 15._o now_o let_v the_o prophet_n judge_n whether_o these_o reason_n prove_v what_o they_o be_v bring_v to_o prove_v to_o wit_n that_o they_o who_o impose_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n do_v it_o for_o or_o in_o stead_n of_o the_o congregation_n or_o whether_o it_o be_v as_o our_o reverend_a brother_n affirm_v that_o these_o two_o reason_n prove_v nothing_o yet_o let_v we_o hear_v why_o they_o prove_v nothing_o because_o these_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n do_v lay_v on_o hand_n as_o represent_v the_o whole_a congregation_n alas_o it_o do_v no_o way_n conclude_v that_o they_o lay_v not_o on_o hand_n as_o it_o be_v a_o work_n peculiar_a to_o they_o 〈◊〉_d elder_n ans_fw-fr if_o it_o do_v not_o yet_o if_o our_o reason_n do_v conclude_v that_o they_o do_v it_o instead_o of_o the_o congregation_n we_o have_v our_o intent_n but_o to_o follow_v mr._n rutherford_n a_o little_a in_o digress_v from_o the_o point_n why_o do_v not_o our_o reason_n conclude_v this_o other_o the_o highpriest_n offer_v sacrifice_n first_o for_o his_o own_o sin_n and_o then_o for_o the_o people_n heb._n 7._o v_o 27._o and_o so_o do_v represent_v the_o people_n but_o i_o hope_v it_o follow_v not_o that_o therefore_o the_o priest_n do_v not_o sacrifice_v as_o a_o priest_n and_o by_o virtue_n of_o a_o peculiar_a office_n but_o only_o as_o a_o principal_a member_n of_o the_o congregation_n answ_n mr._n rutherford_n himself_o give_v we_o a_o distinction_n which_o may_v be_v sufficient_a for_o answer_v to_o this_o passage_n a_o representer_n say_v he_o stand_v for_o another_o either_o objective_o or_o subjective_o the_o former_a of_o these_o be_v he_o that_o do_v a_o business_n for_o another_o or_o in_o rem_fw-la ejus_fw-la for_o his_o behalf_n and_o good_a as_o the_o eye_n see_v and_o the_o ear_n hear_v for_o the_o whole_a body_n and_o thus_o objective_o the_o presbytery_n do_v represent_v the_o people_n that_o be_v for_o your_o good_a and_o salvation_n of_o the_o people_n the_o other_o represent_v another_o subjective_o be_v when_o the_o representer_n have_v its_o power_n from_o that_o which_o it_o represent_v as_o he_o who_o carry_v the_o room_n and_o person_n of_o a_o king_n as_o a_o ambassador_n but_o thus_o say_v he_o the_o presbytery_n or_o eldership_n do_v not_o represent_v the_o people_n due_a right_n of_o presbyt_fw-la p._n 316_o 317._o now_o as_o the_o presbytery_n represent_v the_o people_n so_o may_v it_o be_v say_v of_o the_o priest_n viz._n that_o he_o represent_v the_o people_n only_o objective_o for_o their_o good_a but_o not_o subjective_o in_o their_o room_n and_o stead_n and_o therefore_o the_o case_n be_v not_o alike_o for_o we_o think_v that_o what_o be_v do_v by_o those_o who_o impose_v hand_n numb_a 8._o be_v not_o only_o do_v for_o the_o good_a of_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n but_o also_o in_o their_o room_n and_o stead_n which_o he_o will_v not_o say_v of_o the_o priest_n sacrifice_v for_o the_o people_n have_v already_o say_v the_o contrary_a of_o the_o presbytery_n pag._n 493._o you_o will_v say_v in_o a_o church_n in_o a_o island_n one_o may_v be_v a_o pastor_n without_o any_o ordination_n if_o the_o people_n elect_v he_o and_o there_o be_v no_o elder_n to_o ordain_v i_o answer_v it_o be_v true_a answ_n if_o this_o be_v true_a then_o what_o becomnes_n of_o that_o which_o be_v say_v in_o the_o precedent_a page_n that_o though_o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v not_o so_o essential_a as_o that_o a_o minister_n can_v be_v no_o minister_n without_o it_o yet_o for_o ordination_n it_o be_v otherwise_o this_o be_v the_o authoritative_a call_n of_o a_o minister_n and_o the_o other_o but_o a_o rite_n annex_v to_o the_o call_n in_o which_o place_n he_o count_v ordination_n so_o essential_a as_o that_o a_o minister_n can_v be_v no_o minister_n without_o it_o and_o yet_o in_o the_o very_a next_o page_n confess_v
make_v good_a what_o our_o brethren_n say_v that_o therefore_o they_o may_v judge_v of_o a_o minister_n fitness_n answ_n that_o which_o we_o say_v in_o this_o answ_n pag._n 51._o there_o must_v be_v some_o ability_n to_o discern_v whether_o man_n be_v qualify_v according_a to_o the_o rule_n afore_o they_o ought_v to_o be_v elect_v and_o choose_v into_o office_n and_o the_o people_n of_o god_n have_v so_o much_o ability_n as_o be_v of_o necessity_n require_v afore_o there_o be_v precede_v unto_o ordination_n wherein_o it_o be_v plain_a that_o our_o argue_v be_v from_o the_o people_n ability_n to_o discern_v of_o man_n fitness_n afore_o they_o be_v elect_v to_o their_o like_a ability_n to_o discern_v of_o their_o fitness_n afore_o they_o be_v ordain_v they_o who_o have_v so_o much_o as_o to_o discern_v who_o be_v fit_a to_o be_v ordain_v but_o the_o people_n of_o god_n may_v have_v the_o former_a ergo_fw-la they_o may_v have_v the_o latter_a now_o what_o say_v mr._n rutherford_n hereunto_o the_o assumption_n he_o deny_v not_o but_o in_o plain_a word_n grant_v it_o say_v they_o may_v as_o christ_n sheep_n joh._n 10._o discern_v christ_n voice_n and_o so_o have_v a_o power_n of_o election_n of_o their_o own_o pastor_n it_o must_v then_o be_v the_o consequence_n that_o must_v be_v deny_v or_o the_o conclusion_n must_v be_v yield_v what_o then_o bring_v he_o to_o overthrow_v the_o consequence_n nothing_o but_o this_o that_o there_o be_v a_o two_o fold_v knowledge_n one_o of_o christian_n not_o deny_v to_o woman_n and_o believe_a child_n who_o can_v lay_v on_o hand_n nor_o ordain_v miâ—isters_n as_o the_o presbytery_n do_v but_o what_o the_o other_o knowledge_n be_v he_o do_v not_o plain_o tell_v except_o any_o thing_n may_v be_v gather_v from_o the_o word_n follow_v where_o he_o say_v but_o for_o try_v of_o minister_n if_o they_o be_v the_o son_n of_o the_o prophet_n apt_a to_o teach_v able_a to_o convince_v the_o subtle_a heretic_n and_o gainsayer_n and_o to_o put_v they_o to_o silence_n there_o must_v be_v in_o a_o constitute_v church_n a_o college_n of_o pastor_n and_o prophet_n to_o try_v the_o prophet_n with_o a_o presbyterial_a cognizance_n answ_n but_o if_o mr._n rutherford_n will_v have_v speak_v to_o the_o point_n he_o shall_v have_v give_v some_o reason_n why_o the_o people_n may_v discern_v a_o man_n fitness_n for_o election_n and_o yet_o not_o discern_v his_o fitness_n for_o ordination_n for_o this_o be_v the_o consequence_n of_o our_o argument_n which_o he_o deny_v but_o in_o all_o that_o be_v here_o say_v about_o a_o two_o fold_v knowledge_n one_o of_o christian_n and_o the_o other_o of_o some_o body_n else_o what_o be_v there_o in_o all_o this_o that_o have_v so_o much_o as_o the_o least_o show_n of_o overthrow_v or_o weaken_v the_o consequence_n suâ—e_o nothing_o at_o all_o that_o i_o can_v find_v for_o as_o for_o that_o which_o be_v intimate_v that_o christian_n have_v not_o so_o much_o knowledge_n as_o to_o try_v minister_n whether_o they_o be_v apt_a to_o teach_v etc._n etc._n this_o make_v nothing_o to_o the_o point_n in_o hand_n that_o they_o can_v discern_v whether_o a_o man_n be_v fit_a to_o be_v elect_v but_o not_o discern_v whether_o he_o be_v fit_a to_o be_v ordain_v but_o if_o it_o have_v any_o strength_n in_o it_o at_o all_o it_o be_v as_o much_o against_o the_o ability_n of_o the_o people_n which_o he_o express_o grant_v as_o against_o that_o which_o he_o will_v deny_v as_o much_o against_o their_o ability_n of_o discern_v his_o fitness_n for_o ordination_n and_o therefore_o how_o this_o shall_v overthrow_v the_o one_o and_o not_o the_o other_o i_o do_v not_o know_v for_o to_o any_o man_n understanding_n it_o make_v no_o more_o against_o the_o one_o then_o against_o the_o other_o but_o either_o against_o both_o which_o he_o will_v not_o grant_v or_o else_o against_o neither_o which_o i_o conceive_v be_v the_o very_a truth_n to_o argue_v in_o this_o sort_n they_o have_v not_o ability_n to_o convince_v 〈◊〉_d heretic_n ergo_fw-la they_o may_v not_o choose_v their_o minister_n this_o mr._n rutherford_n will_v not_o own_o for_o he_o plain_o grant_v they_o may_v choose_v and_o therefore_o how_o can_v this_o argue_v be_v good_a they_o want_v ability_n to_o convince_v heretic_n ergo_fw-la they_o may_v not_o impose_v hand_n in_o ordination_n how_o the_o one_o kind_n of_o reason_v can_v be_v better_o than_o the_o other_o i_o do_v not_o know_v except_o we_o will_v say_v some_o may_v be_v lawful_o elect_v and_o choose_v to_o the_o ministry_n who_o can_v lawful_o be_v ordain_v but_o this_o i_o suppose_v can_v be_v say_v with_o truth_n chap._n xxvi_o whether_o the_o epistle_n to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n wherein_o there_o be_v contain_v rule_n of_o direction_n in_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n do_v prove_v that_o the_o action_n may_v not_o in_o any_o case_n be_v perform_v by_o non-officer_n but_o must_v be_v perform_v only_o by_o presbyter_n and_o whether_o the_o argument_n do_v not_o make_v as_o strong_o for_o the_o appropriate_a of_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n to_o the_o prelate_n as_o to_o the_o presbyter_n and_o do_v not_o as_o well_o exclude_v the_o presbyter_n from_o meddle_v therein_o as_o exclude_v the_o people_n there_o be_v only_o one_o place_n more_o where_o i_o find_v mr._n rutherford_n except_v against_o the_o answer_n and_o that_o be_v in_o his_o pag._n 497._o where_o allege_v the_o answer_n pag._n 59_o which_o i_o conceive_v be_v misprint_v for_o pag._n 49._o he_o set_v down_o these_o word_n as_o we_o viz._n if_o people_n may_v not_o meddle_v with_o ordination_n because_o it_o be_v proper_a to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n this_o may_v prove_v that_o they_o be_v bishop_n who_o do_v ordain_v elder_n there_o alone_o which_o minister_n may_v not_o do_v there_o for_o these_o epistle_n be_v not_o write_v to_o they_o as_o bishop_n alone_o nor_o as_o elder_n alone_o but_o as_o to_o a_o mix_a state_n include_v the_o people_n answ_n the_o order_n of_o the_o dispute_n be_v this_o reverend_a mr._n herle_n argue_v for_o ordination_n of_o officer_n by_o a_o consociate_v eldership_n and_o not_o by_o a_o single_a congregation_n with_o or_o without_o a_o pastor_n bring_v this_o reason_n for_o his_o judgement_n viz._n rule_n of_o direction_n how_o to_o proceed_v in_o ordination_n and_o the_o epistle_n where_o those_o rule_n be_v lay_v down_o be_v not_o write_v to_o the_o church_n or_o congregation_n but_o to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n in_o answer_v whereunto_o we_o speak_v to_o this_o purpose_n that_o if_o this_o be_v a_o sufficient_a reason_n to_o prove_v that_o the_o people_n may_v not_o in_o any_o case_n meddle_v with_o ordination_n then_o by_o as_o good_a reason_n it_o will_v follow_v that_o ordination_n belong_v not_o to_o the_o presbytery_n or_o synod_n but_o only_o to_o one_o man_n as_o the_o prelate_n will_v have_v it_o the_o reason_n we_o give_v be_v because_o timothy_n and_o titus_n be_v each_o of_o they_o but_o only_o one_o man_n and_o we_o there_o further_o say_v that_o we_o do_v approve_v the_o answer_n give_v to_o this_o kind_n of_o reason_v by_o the_o refuter_fw-la of_o dr._n downâ—â—s_n sermon_n at_o lâ—â—beth_n who_o show_v that_o what_o be_v write_v in_o those_o epistle_n be_v not_o only_o write_v for_o timothy_n and_o titus_n but_o for_o other_o minister_n also_o and_o also_o in_o some_o sort_n for_o all_o the_o saint_n and_o that_o therefore_o there_o be_v no_o more_o reason_n to_o appropriate_v those_o rule_n only_o to_o the_o use_n of_o presbytery_n and_o synod_n then_o only_o to_o the_o use_n of_o prelate_n now_o what_o say_v mr._n rutherford_n to_o this_o some_o parcel_n of_o these_o 〈◊〉_d be_v write_v say_v he_o to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n as_o evangeliâ—ts_n something_o be_v be_v write_v to_o they_o as_o christian_n and_o finaditer_n &_o objective_n all_o be_v write_v for_o the_o church_n good_a but_o the_o bulk_n of_o the_o epistle_n be_v write_v to_o they_o as_o elder_n and_o especial_o 1_o tim._n 5._o 22._o 2_o tim._n 2._o 2._o for_o these_o and_o the_o like_a they_o be_v to_o do_v with_o the_o presbytery_n as_o be_v clear_a 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o answ_n this_o scripture_n 1_o tim._n 4._o do_v show_v that_o timothy_n have_v a_o gift_n give_v he_o by_o prophecy_n with_o the_o lay_n on_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n but_o how_o do_v it_o hence_o appear_v that_o not_o only_a timothy_n but_o titus_n also_o be_v to_o dothing_n with_o the_o presbytery_n titus_n be_v not_o at_o all_o mention_v in_o that_o scripture_n and_o as_o for_o timothy_n scripture_n tell_v what_o the_o presbytery_n do_v to_o he_o but_o what_o he_o must_v do_v with_o the_o presbytery_n it_o tell_v we_o nothing_o at_o all_o again_o if_o the_o bulk_n of_o the_o epistle_n be_v write_v to_o they_o as_o elder_n and_o the_o church_n be_v no_o otherwise_o concern_v therein_o but_o only_o finaliter_fw-la and_o objective_o the_o epistle_n be_v write_v for_o their_o good_a then_o what_o shall_v be_v the_o meaning_n and_o reason_n of_o these_o word_n in_o the_o conclusion_n of_o the_o epistle_n to_o titus_n and_o of_o the_o latter_a to_o timothy_n where_o it_o be_v say_v grace_n be_v with_o you_o and_o grace_n be_v with_o you_o all_o do_v it_o not_o plain_o appear_v hereby_o that_o more_o than_o elder_n even_o all_o the_o saint_n in_o those_o place_n be_v write_v unto_o in_o those_o epistle_n three_o if_o there_o be_v rule_n in_o the_o epistle_n that_o do_v belong_v to_o elder_n alone_o yet_o since_o it_o be_v confess_v and_o may_v not_o be_v deny_v that_o other_o thing_n therein_o do_v concern_v all_o christian_n how_o shall_v we_o be_v assure_v that_o such_o passage_n as_o concern_v â—aying_v on_o of_o hand_n be_v of_o the_o former_a sort_n and_o not_o of_o the_o latter_a for_o to_o say_v it_o be_v so_o and_o it_o be_v clear_a we_o think_v do_v not_o clear_v it_o at_o all_o unless_o some_o further_a proof_n be_v add_v last_o if_o all_o this_o be_v grant_v which_o here_o be_v say_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n yet_o for_o aught_o i_o see_v our_o answer_n be_v not_o remove_v thereby_o but_o still_o stand_v fair_a and_o good_a for_o in_o that_o place_n of_o the_o answer_n allege_v we_o say_v two_o thing_n 1._o that_o these_o rule_n about_o ordination_n in_o timothy_n and_o titus_n may_v with_o as_o fair_a a_o colour_n be_v appropriate_v to_o one_o man_n as_o to_z presbytery_n and_o synod_n 2._o that_o the_o epistle_n and_o the_o rule_v therein_o be_v not_o to_o be_v appropriate_v to_o bishop_n alone_o or_o minister_n alone_o but_o be_v indeed_o of_o general_a concernment_n for_o all_o the_o christian_n now_o neither_o of_o these_o two_o be_v discover_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n for_o as_o for_o the_o former_a of_o they_o he_o say_v nothing_o thereto_o at_o all_o and_o the_o latter_a he_o do_v in_o a_o manner_n grant_v not_o only_o by_o say_v that_o all_o here_o be_v write_v for_o the_o church_n good_a but_o also_o by_o say_v that_o something_n be_v write_v to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n as_o christian_n which_o be_v in_o effect_n the_o same_o that_o we_o have_v say_v before_o and_o how_o our_o answer_n can_v be_v disprove_v or_o satisfy_v either_o by_o say_v nothing_o at_o all_o thereto_o or_o by_o say_v the_o same_o that_o we_o have_v say_v before_o i_o leave_v it_o to_o the_o judicious_a reader_n to_o consider_v finis_fw-la