Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	answer_v	argument_n	prove_v	3,101	5	5.5305	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A97108	Tolleration iustified, and persecution condemn'd. In an answer or examination, of the London-ministers letter whereof, many of them are of the synod, and yet framed this letter at Sion-Colledge; to be sent among others, to themselves at the Assembly: in behalf of reformation and church-government, 2 Corinth. II. vers. 14. 15. And no marvail, for Sathan himself is transformed into an angell of light. Therefore it is no great thing, though his ministers transform themselves, as though they were ministers of righteousnesse; whose end shall be according to their works.	Walwyn, William, 1600-1681.	1646 (1646)	Wing W692A; Thomason E319_15; ESTC R200561	14,731	18

to_o the_o state_n but_o you_o will_v say_v that_o by_o such_o a_o toleration_n blasphemy_n will_v be_v broach_v and_o such_o strange_a and_o horrid_a opinion_n as_o will_v make_v the_o ear_n of_o every_o godly_a and_o christian_a man_n to_o tingle_v what_o must_v this_o also_o be_v tolerate_v i_o answer_v it_o can_v be_v just_a to_o set_v bound_n or_o limitation_n to_o toleration_n any_o further_a than_o the_o safety_n of_o the_o people_n require_v the_o more_o horrid_a and_o blasphemous_a the_o opinion_n be_v the_o easy_a suppress_v by_o reason_n and_o argument_n because_o it_o must_v necessary_o be_v that_o the_o weak_a the_o argument_n be_v on_o one_o side_n the_o strong_a they_o be_v on_o the_o other_o the_o grosser_n the_o error_n be_v the_o more_o advantage_n have_v truth_n over_o it_o the_o less_o colour_n likewise_o and_o pretence_n there_o be_v for_o impose_v it_o upon_o the_o people_n i_o be_o confident_a that_o there_o be_v much_o more_o danger_n in_o small_a but_o specious_o form_v error_n that_o have_v a_o likeness_n and_o similitude_n to_o truth_n then_o in_o a_o gross_n and_o palpable_a untruth_n beside_o can_v it_o in_o reason_n be_v judge_v the_o meet_a way_n to_o draw_v a_o man_n out_o of_o his_o ●●ror_n by_o imprisonment_n bond_n or_o other_o punishment_n you_o may_v as_o well_o be_v angry_a 〈…〉_z ●●ripes_n or_o bond_n to_o recover_v his_o sight_n how_o pr●posterous_a will_v this_o 〈◊〉_d your_o ho●per_n ●nd_v mee●_n way_n ●u●e_n be_v to_o apply_v thing_n 〈◊〉_d to_o his_o cute_a and_o so_o likewise_o to_o a_o man_n who_o understanding_n be_v cloud●d_fw-mi 〈…〉_z and_o imperfect_a who_o mind_n be_v so_o far_o misinform_v as_o to_o 〈…〉_z or_o the_o scripture●_n for_o we_o instance_n in_o the_o worst_a of_o error_n ●a●_z b●●lam_fw-la or_o the_o fleet_n reduce_v such_o a_o one_o n●_n certain_o it_o be_v ever_o find_v by_o all_o experience_n that_o su●●_z rough_a 〈◊〉_d do_v 〈◊〉_d the_o error_n not_o remove_v i●_z nothing_o can_v do_v that_o but_o the_o 〈◊〉_d and_o 〈◊〉_d power_n of_o find_a reason_n and_o argument_n which_o 〈◊〉_d to_o b●_n doubt_v they_o be_v 〈◊〉_d furnish_v withal_o that_o use_n other_o weapon_n hence_o have_v i_o observe_v d_o that_o the_o most_o weak_a and_o passionate_a man_n the_o most_o unable_a to_o defend_v truth_n or_o their_o own●_n opinion_n be_v the_o most_o violent_a for_o persecution_n whereas_o those_o who_o mind_n be_v establish_v and_o who_o opinion_n be_v build_v upon_o firm_a and_o 〈◊〉_d grou●d_fw-mi ●eare_fw-mi no●_z what_o wind_n blow●_n fear_v not_o to_o grapple_v with_o any_o e●ror_n because_o they_o bo●●d_fw-mi ●n●_z they_o 〈◊〉_d overthrow_v it_o 3._o independency_n be_v a_o schism_n and_o therefore_o not_o to_o be_v tolerate_v the_o principal_a argument_n bring_v to_o prove_v it_o be_v this_o because_o they_o d●part_v from_o the_o presbyter_fw-la church_n which_o be_v true_a church_n and_o so_o confo_v to_o ●o_z 〈◊〉_d by_o ●he_a i●depend●nt●_n i_o answer_v that_o this_o argument_n only_o concern_v the_o 〈◊〉_d because_o they_o only_o acknowledge_v they_o to_o be_v true_a church_n whether_o they_o be_v still_o of_o that_o opinion_n o●_z no_o i_o know_v not_o it_o be_v to_o be_v doubt_v they_o be_v not_o especial_o 〈◊〉_d they_o have_v discern_v the_o spirit_n of_o enforcement_n and_o compul●ion_n to_o ●aig●_z in_o that_o c●ur●h_n the_o tr●est_n mark_v of_o a_o false_a c●urch_n i_o believe_v the_o independent_n have_v ●●●nged_v their_o 〈◊〉_d ●_z es●eially_o those_o of_o they_o who_o pastor_n r●●●ive_v their_o office_n ●nd_v mi●is●try_n 〈◊〉_d the_o election_n of_o the_o people_n or_o congregation_n and_o be_v not_o engage_v to_o allow_v so_o much_o 〈◊〉_d the_o presbyter_n because_o of_o their_o own_o interest_n as_o derive_v their_o call_n from_o the_o bis●ops_n and_o pope_n for_o the_o make_n up_o a_o suppose_a succession_n from_o the_o apostle_n who_o se●_n their_o own_o sake_n be_v enforce_v to_o acknowledge_v the_o presbyter_n for_o ●_z true_o church_n 〈◊〉_d the_o 〈◊〉_d be_v necessitate_v to_o allow_v the_o episcopal_a and_o papist_n church_n true_a o●_n valid_a fo●_z the_o substance_n as_o they_o confess_v in_o the_o ordinance_n for_o ordination_n because_o they_o have_v receive_v their_o ministry_n therefrom_o without_o which_o absurdity_n they_o can_v maintain_v their_o succession_n from_o the_o apostle_n but_o that_o the_o independent_n be_v not_o a_o schism_n they_o have_v and_o will_n i_o believe_v upon_o all●occa●ions_n sufficient_o justifi●_z i_o shall_v not_o the●e●or●_n ●ince_n it_o concern_v they_o in_o particular_a 〈◊〉_d thereupon_o 〈…〉_z to_o the_o suppose_a mischief_n which_o the_o minister_n say_v will_v ●nevitably_o fo●low_v upon_o th●●_z toll●r●tion_n both_o to_o the_o church_n and_o commonwea_fw-mi the_o first_o to_o the_o church_n 1._o causeless_o ●nd_v unjust_a revol●s_v from_o our_o ministry_n and_o congreg●tions_n to_o this_o i_o say_v that_o i●_z argue_v a_o abundance_n of_o distrust_n the_o minister_n have_v in_o thei●_z own_o ability_n and_o the_o doctrine_n they_o pr●●ch_n to_o suppose_v their_o auditor_n will_v for●●k●_z they_o if_o other_o man_n have_v liberty_n to_o speak_v it_o be_v authority_n it_o seem_v ●ust_a 〈◊〉_d thei●_z church_n and_o not_o the_o truth_n and_o eff●a●cy_n of_o their_o doctr●nes_o i_o j●dge_v it_o ●or_a my_o pa●●●●ufficient_a ground_n to_o suspect_v that_o for_o gold_n that_o can_v abide_v a_o trial_n it_o seem_v our_o minister_n doctrine_n and_o religion_n be_v like_o dagon_n of_o the_o p●ilistins_n that_o will_v fall_v to_o pie●●s_n at_o the_o appearance_n of_o the_o ark_n truth_n sure_a will_v be_v more_o confident_a in_o hope_n to_o app●●●_n 〈…〉_z glorious_a be_v set_v off_o by_o falsehood_n and_o therefore_o i_o do_v adjure_v the_o minister_n from_o ●hat_o loveliness_n and_o potency_n that_o necessary_o must_v be_v in_o truth_n and_o righteousness_n if_o ●hey_n think_v they_o do_v profess_v it_o that_o they_o will_v procure_v the_o open_n of_o every_o man_n mouth_n in_o confidence_n that_o truth_n in_o whosoever_o she_o be_v will_v prove_v victorious_a and_o ●ike_v the_o sun_n glorious_a lustre_n darken_v all_o error_n and_o vain_a imagination_n of_o man_n heart_n but_o i_o fear_v the_o consequence_n stick_v more_o in_o their_o stomach_n the_o empty_n of_o their_o church_n be_v the_o eclipse_n of_o their_o reputation_n and_o the_o diminish_n of_o their_o profit_n if_o it_o be_v otherwise_o le●_n it_o appear_v by_o a_o equal_a allow_n of_o that_o to_o other_o which_o they_o have_v labour_v so_o much_o for_o to_o be_v allow_v to_o themselves_o 2._o our_o people_n mind_n will_v be_v trouble_v and_o in_o danger_n to_o be_v subvert_v act_n 15._o 24._o a._o the_o place_n of_o scripture_n may_v concern_v themselves_o and_o may_v as_o well_o be_v urge_v upon_o they_o by_o the_o separation_n o●_z independent_n as_o it_o be_v urge_v by_o they_o upon_o the_o separation_n and_o independen●s_n namely_o that_o they_o trouble_v the_o people_n mind_n and_o lay_v injunction_n upon_o they_o they_o be_v never_o command_v to_o lay_v and_o it_o be_v very_o observable_a the_o most_o of_o those_o scripture_n they_o urge_v against_o the_o separation_n do_v most_o proper_o belong_v unto_o themselves_o 3._o bitter_a heart-bur●ings_n a●ong_a brethren_n will_v be_v foment●d_fw-mi and_o perpetuate_v to_o all_o posterity_n i_o answer_v not_o by_o but_o fo●_z want_n of_o a_o toleration_n because_o the_o state_n be_v not_o equal_a in_o its_o protection_n but_o allow_v one_o sort_n of_o man_n to_o trample_v upon_o another_o from_o hence_o must_v necessary_o ●rise_v heartburning_n which_o as_o they_o have_v ever_o be_v so_o they_o will_v ever_o be_v perpetuate_v to_o posterity_n unless_o the_o state_n wise_o prevent_v they_o by_o take_v away_o the_o distinction_n that_o foment_v they_o namely_o the_o particular_a indulgency_n of_o one_o party_n and_o neglect_v of_o the_o other_o by_o a_o just_a and_o equal_a toleration_n in_o that_o family_n strife_n and_o heartburning_n be_v common_o multiply_v where_o one_o son_n be_v more_o cockered_a and_o indu●ged_v then_o ●nother_a the_o way_n to_o foster_v love_n and_o amity_n as_o well_o in_o a_o family_n as_o in_o a_o state_n be_v ●n_o equal_a respect_n from_o those_o that_o be_v in_o author●●y_n 4._o they_o say_v the_o godly_a painful_a and_o orthodo●_z minister_n will_v be_v discourage_v and_o d●spis●d_a answ._n upou_fw-la how_o slight_a foundation_n be_v their_o reputation_n support_v that_o fear_v be_v despise_v unless_o author●●y_n force_v all_o to_o church_n to_o they_o since_o they_o have_v confidence_n to_o vou●h_n themselves_o godly_a painful_a and_o orthodot_n methinks_v they_o shall_v vot_o doubt_v a_o ●udience_n the_o apostle_n can_v empty_v the_o c●urches_n and_o jewish_a synagogue_n and_o by_o the_o prevalency_n of_o their_o doctrine_n convert_v 3000_o at_o a_o sermon_n and_o do_v our_o minister_n f●are_v that_o have_v the_o opportunity_n of_o a_o church_n and_o the_o

advan●age_n of_o speak_v ●n_o h●●re_o together_o without_o interruption_n that_o they_o can_v keep_v those_o auditor_n they_o h●ve_v but_o that_o they_o shall_v be_v withdraw_v from_o they_o by_o man_n of_o ●eaner_a 〈◊〉_d in_o their_o esteem_n by_o the_o illiterate_a and_o undervalue_v lay_v preacher_n that_o ●r●_z as_o the_o minister_n suppose_v under_o the_o cloud_n of_o error_n and_o false_a doctrine_n sure_o they_o suspect_v their_o own_o tene●ss_n or_o their_o ability_n to_o maintain_v they_o that_o esteem_v it_o a_o discouragement_n to_o be_v oppose_v and_o fear_v they_o shall_v be_v despise_v if_o dispu●●d_fw-mi withal_o 5._o they_o say_v the_o life_n and_o power_n of_o godliness_n will_v be_v eat_v out_o by_o frivolous_a dispute_n and_o vain_a jangle_n answ._n frivolous_a dispute_n and_o vain_a jangle_n be_v as_o unjustifiable_a in_o the_o people_n as_o in_o the_o ministry_n but_o mild_a and_o gentle_a reason_n which_o authority_n be_v only_o to_o countenance_n make_v much_o to_o the_o find_v out_o of_o truth_n which_o do_v most_o advance_v the_o life_n and_o power_n of_o godliness_n beside_o a_o toleration_n be_v allow_v and_o every_o sect_n labour_v to_o make_v it_o appear_v that_o they_o be_v in_o the_o truth_n whereof_o a_o good_a life_n or_o the_o power_n of_o godliness_n be_v the_o best_a badge_n or_o symptom_n hence_o will_v necessary_o follow_v a_o noble_a contestation_n in_o all_o sort_n of_o man_n to_o exceed_v in_o godliness_n to_o the_o great_a improvement_n of_o virtue_n and_o piety_n among_o we_o from_o whence_o it_o will_v be_v conclude_v too_o that_o that_o sect_n will_v be_v suppose_v to_o have_v least_o truth_n in_o they_o that_o be_v least_o virtuous_a and_o godlike_a in_o their_o life_n and_o conversation_n 6._o they_o urge_v that_o the_o whole_a course_n of_o religion_n in_o private_a family_n will_v be_v interrupt_v and_o undermine_v answ._n as_o if_o the_o independent_n and_o separation_n be_v not_o as_o religious_a in_o their_o private_a family_n as_o the_o presbyter_n 7._o reciprocal_a duty_n between_o person_n of_o near_a and_o dear_a relation_n will_v be_v extreme_o violate_v answ._n a_o needless_a fear_n ground_v upon_o a_o supposition_n that_o difference_n in_o judgement_n must_v needs_o occasion_v coldness_n of_o affection_n which_o indeed_o proceed_v from_o the_o different_a countenance_n and_o protection_n which_o state_n have_v hitherto_o afford_v to_o man_n of_o different_a judgement_n hence_o be_v it_o that_o in_o the_o most_o persecute_v time_n when_o it_o be_v almost_o as_o bad_a in_o the_o vulgar_a esteem_n to_o be_v a_o anabaptist_n as_o a_o murderer_n it_o occasion_v disinherit_n and_o many_o effect_n of_o want_n of_o affection_n in_o people_n of_o near_a relation_n but_o since_o the_o common_a odium_fw-la and_o vilification_n be_v in_o great_a measure_n take_v off_o by_o the_o wise_a and_o just_a permission_n of_o all_o sect_n of_o man_n by_o the_o parliament_n man_n and_o wife_n father_n and_o son_n friend_n and_o friend_n though_o of_o different_a opinion_n can_v agree_v well_o together_o and_o love_v one_o another_o which_o show_v that_o such_o difference_n in_o affection_n be_v not_o proper_o the_o effect_n of_o difference_n in_o judgement_n but_o of_o persecution_n and_o the_o distinct_a respect_n and_o different_a countenance_n that_o authority_n have_v former_o show_v towards_o man_n not_o conform_v 8._o they_o say_v that_o the_o whole_a work_n of_o r●formation_n especial_o in_o discipline_n a●d_fw-mi government_n will_v be_v retard_v disturb_v and_o in_o danger_n of_o b●ing_v utter_o frustrate_a and_o void_a it_o matter_n not_o since_o they_o mean_v in_o the_o presbyterian_a discipline_n and_o government_n accompany_v with_o persecution_n nay_o it_o will_v be_v abundant_o happy_a for_o the_o people_n and_o exceed_o conduce_v to_o a_o last_a peace_n to_o which_o persecution_n be_v the_o great_a enemy_n if_o such_o a_o government_n so_o qualify_v be_v never_o settle_v the_o presbyter_n i_o hope_v will_v fall_v short_a in_o their_o aim_n ●_z it_o be_v not_o certain_a that_o the_o parliament_n mean_v to_o settle_v the_o presbyterian_a government_n since_o they_o have_v not_o declare_v that_o government_n to_o be_v agreeable_a to_o god_n word_n although_o the_o presbyter_n be_v please_v in_o their_o expression_n frequent_o to_o call_v their_o government_n christ●_z government_n howsoever_o their_o determination_n which_o may_v well_o be_v suppose_v to_o be_v buil●_z upon_o their_o interest_n be_v not_o bind_v they_o be_v call_v to_o advise_v withal_o not_o to_o control_n 2._o in_o case_n the_o parliament_n shall_v approve_v of_o that_o government_n in_o the_o main_a yet_o the_o prelatical_a and_o persecute_v power_n of_o it_o we_o may_v well_o presume_v since_o they_o themselves_o may_v smart_v under_o it_o as_o well_o as_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o people_n they_o will_v never_o establish_v 9_o all_o other_o sect_n and_o heresy_n in_o the_o kingdom_n will_v be_v encourage_v to_o endeavour_v the_o like_a toleration_n sect_n and_o heresy_n we_o must_v take_v leave_n to_o tell_v they_o that_o those_o be_v ●ermes_n impose_v ad_fw-la placitum_fw-la and_o may_v be_v retort_v with_o the_o like_a confidence_n upon_o themselves_o how_o prove_v they_o separation_n to_o be_v sect_n and_o heresy_n because_o they_o differ_v and_o separate_v from_o t●em_fw-mi that_o be_v no_o argument_n unless_o they_o can_v first_o prove_v themselves_o to_o be_v in_o the_o truth_n a_o matter_n with_o much_o presumption_n suppose_v but_o never_o yet_o make_v good_a and_o yet_o upon_o this_o groundless_a presumption_n the_o whole_a fabric_n of_o their_o function_n their_o claim_n to_o the_o church_n their_o pre-eminence_n in_o determine_v matter_n of_o religion_n their_o eager_a pursuit_n after_o a_o power_n to_o persecute_v be_v main_o support_v if_o the_o separation_n be_v sect_n and_o heresy_n because_o the_o presbyter_n suppose_v themselves_o to_o have_v the_o countenance_n of_o authority_n and_o some_o esteem_n with_o the_o people_n judge_v they_o so_o the_o presbyter_n by_o the_o same_o rule_n be_v so_o because_o the_o bishop_n once_o in_o authority_n and_o in_o great_a countenance_n with_o the_o people_n do_v so_o judge_v they_o to_o be_v and_o whereas_o they_o say_v that_o sect_n and_o heresy_n will_v be_v encourage_v to_o endeavo●r_n the_o like_a toleration_n with_o the_o independent_n i_o answer_v that_o it_o be_v their_o right_n their_o due_a as_o just_o as_o their_o clothes_n or_o food_n and_o if_o they_o endeavour_v not_o for_o their_o liberty_n they_o be_v in_o a_o measure_n guilty_a of_o their_o own_o bo●dage_n how_o monstrous_a a_o matter_n the_o minister_n will_v make_v it_o to_o be_v for_o man_n to_o labour_v to_o be_v free_a from_o persecution_n they_o think_v they_o be_v in_o the_o ●addle_n already_o but_o will_v never_o i_o hope_v have_v the_o reins_n in_o their_o hand_n their_o 10_o fear_n be_v the_o same_o 2._o they_o say_v the_o whole_a church_n of_o england_n they_o mean_v their_o whole_a church_n of_o england_n in_o sh●rt_a time_n will_v be_v ●wallowed_v up_o with_o di●traction_n and_o confusion_n these_o thing_n be_v but_o lay_v not_o prove_v be_v it_o not_o that_o the_o divine_n blow_v the_o coal_n of_o dissension_n and_o exasperate_v one_o man_n spirit_n against_o another_o i_o be_o confident_o persuade_v we_o may_v differ_v in_o opinion_n and_o yet_o love_v one_o another_o very_a well_o ●s_n for_o any_o distraction_n or_o confusion_n that_o may_v entrench_v upon_o that_o civil_a peace_n the_o law_n migh●_z provide_v against_o it_o which_o be_v the_o earnest_a desire_n both_o of_o the_o independen●●_n and_o separation_n 2._o they_o say_v toleration_n will_v bring_v divers_a mischief_n upon_o the_o commonwealth_n for_o 1._o all_o these_o mischief_n in_o the_o church_n will_v have_v their_o proportionable_a influence_n upon_o the_o commonwealth_n this_o be_v but_o a_o slight_a supposition_n and_o mention_v no_o evil_a that_o be_v like_a to_o befall_v the_o commonwealth_n 2._o they_o urge_v that_o the_o kingdom_n will_v be_v woeful_o weaken_v by_o scandal_n and_o division_n so_o that_o the_o enemy_n both_o domestical_a and_o foreign_a will_v be_v encourage_v to_o plot_n and_o practise_v against_o it_o i_o answer_v that_o the_o contrary_a hereunto_o be_v much_o more_o likely_a for_o two_o reason_n 1._o there_o be_v like_a to_o be_v a_o concurrence_n and_o joint_a assistance_n in_o the_o protection_n of_o the_o commonwealth_n which_o afford_v a_o joint_a protection_n and_o encouragement_n to_o the_o people_n 2._o there_o can_v be_v no_o great_a argument_n to_o the_o people_n to_o venture_v their_o estate_n and_o life_n in_o defence_n of_o their_o country_n and_o that_o government_n under_o which_o they_o enjoy_v not_o only_o a_o liberty_n of_o estate_n and_o person_n but_o a_o freedom_n likewise_o of_o serve_v god_n according_a to_o their_o conscience_n which_o religious_a man_n account_v the_o great_a blessing_n upon_o earth_n i_o may_v

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reference_n to_o the_o presbyter_n and_o now_o mention_v to_o make_v that_o which_o go_v before_o which_o have_v no_o weight_n in_o itself_o to_o sound_v the_o better_a letter_n have_v we_o not_o a_o touchstone_n of_o truth_n the_o good_a word_n of_o god_n and_o when_o all_o thing_n be_v examine_v by_o the_o word_n then_o that_o which_o be_v best_a may_v be_v hold_v fast_o but_o first_o they_o must_v be_v know_v and_o then_o examine_v afterward_o i_o shall_v easy_o concur_v with_o they_o thus_o far_o that_o the_o word_n of_o god_n be_v the_o touchstone_n that_o all_o opinion_n be_v to_o be_v examine_v by_o that_o and_o that_o the_o best_a be_v to_o be_v hold_v fast_o but_o now_o who_o shall_v be_v the_o examiner_n must_v needs_o be_v the_o question_n if_o the_o presbyter_n examine_v the_o independent_a and_o separation_n they_o be_v like_a to_o find_v the_o same_o censure_n the_o presbyter_n have_v already_o find_v be_v examine_v by_o the_o bishop_n and_o the_o bishop_n find_v from_o the_o pope_n adversary_n certain_o be_v not_o competent_a judge_n aga_o in_o in_o matter_n disputable_a and_o controvert_v every_o man_n must_v examine_v for_o himself_o and_o so_o every_o man_n do_v or_o else_o he_o must_v be_v conscious_a to_o himself_o that_o he_o see_v with_o other_o man_n eye_n and_o have_v take_v up_o a_o opinion_n not_o because_o it_o consent_v with_o his_o understanding_n but_o for_o that_o it_o be_v the_o safe_a and_o least_o troublesome_a as_o the_o world_n go_v or_o because_o such_o a_o man_n be_v of_o that_o opinion_n who_o he_o reverence_v and_o veri●y_o believe_v will_v not_o have_v be_v so_o have_v it_o not_o be_v truth_n i_o may_v be_v help_v in_o my_o examination_n by_o other_o man_n but_o no_o man_n o●_z sort_n of_o man_n be_v to_o examine_v for_o i_o insomuch_o that_o before_o a_o opinion_n can_v proper_o be_v say_v to_o be_v i_o it_o must_v concord_n with_o my_o understanding_n now_o here_o be_v the_o fallacy_n and_o you_o shall_v find_v it_o in_o all_o papist_n bishop_n presbyter_n or_o whatsoever_o other_o sort_n of_o man_n have_v or_o will_v have_v in_o their_o hand_n the_o power_n of_o persecute_v that_o they_o always_o suppose_v themselves_o to_o be_v competent_a examiner_n and_o judge_n of_o other_o man_n differ_v in_o judgement_n from_o they_o a●d_fw-mi upon_o this_o weak_a supposition_n by_o no_o mean_n to_o be_v allow_v most_o of_o the_o reason_n and_o argument_n of_o the_o man_n forementioned_a be_v support_v they_o proceed_v to_o charge_n much_o upon_o the_o indepe●dents_n for_o not_o produce_v their_o model_n of_o church-government_n for_o answer_v hereunto_o i_o refer_v the_o reader_n to_o the_o reason_n print_v by_o the_o independent_n and_o give_v into_o the_o house_n in_o their_o own_o justification_n which_o the_o minister_n may_v have_v take_v notice_n of_o i_o proceed_v to_o the_o suppose_a reason_n urge_v by_o the_o minister_n against_o

the_o toleration_n of_o independency_n in_o the_o church_n letter_n 1._o be_v because_o the_o desire_n and_o endeavour_n of_o independent_n for_o a_o toleration_n be_v at_o this_o time_n extreme_o unseasonable_a and_o pray_v properous_a for_o 1._o the_o reformation_n of_o religion_n be_v not_o yet_o perfect_v and_o settle_v among_o we_o according_a to_o our_o covenant_n and_o why_o may_v not_o the_o reformation_n be_v raise_v up_o at_o last_o to_o such_o purity_n and_o perfection_n that_o true_o tender_a conscience_n may_v receive_v abundant_a satisfaction_n for_o aught_o that_o yet_o appear_v i_o will_v to_o god_n the_o people_n their_o own_o friend_n especial_o will_v but_o take_v notice_n of_o the_o fallacy_n of_o the_o reason_n they_o will_v have_v reformation_n perfect_v according_a to_o the_o covenant_n before_o the_o independent_n move_v to_o be_v tolerate_v now_o reformation_n be_v not_o perfect_v according_a to_o the_o covenant_n till_o schism_n and_o heresy_n be_v extirpate_v which_o in_o the_o sequel_n of_o this_o letter_n they_o judge_v independency_n tobe_n that_o their_o charity_n think_v it_o then_o most_o seasonable_a to_o move_v that_o independency_n shall_v be_v tolerate_v after_o it_o be_v extirpate_v their_o reason_n and_o affection_n in_o this_o be_v alike_o sound_a to_o the_o independent_n their_o drift_n in_o this_o indeed_o be_v but_o too_o evident_a they_o will_v have_v the_o independent_n silent_a till_o they_o get_v power_n in_o their_o hand_n and_o then_o let_v they_o talk_v if_o they_o dare_v certain_o the_o most_o seasonable_a time_n to_o move_v for_o toleration_n be_v while_o the_o parliament_n be_v in_o debate_n about_o church_n government_n since_o if_o stay_v be_v make_v till_o a_o church_n government_n be_v settle_v all_o motion_n that_o may_v but_o seem_v to_o derogate_v from_o that_o how_o just_a soever_o in_o themselves_o how_o good_a soever_o for_o the_o commonwealth_n must_v needs_o be_v hardly_o obtain_v and_o whereas_o they_o say_v why_o may_v not_o reformation_n be_v raise_v up_o at_o last_o to_o such_o pretty_a and_o perfection_n that_o true_o tender_a conscience_n may_v receive_v abundant_a satisfaction_n for_o aught_o that_o yet_o appear_v observe_v 1._o that_o these_o very_a minister_n in_o the_o sequel_n of_o their_o letter_n impute_v it_o as_o levity_n in_o the_o independent_n that_o they_o be_v not_o at_o a_o stay_n but_o in_o expectation_n of_o new_a light_n and_o reserve_v as_o they_o say_v so_o that_o a_o man_n will_v thinkf_o they_o themselves_o be_v at_o a_o certainty_n but_o it_o be_v no_o new_a thing_n for_o one_o sort_n of_o man_n to_o object_v that_o as_o a_o crime_n against_o other_o which_o they_o be_v guilty_a of_o themselves_o though_o indeed_o but_o that_o the_o presbyter_n use_v any_o weapon_n against_o the_o independent_n it_o be_v no_o crime_n at_o all_o yea_o it_o be_v excellency_n in_o any_o man_n or_o woman_n not_o to_o be_v pertinacio●s_n or_o obstinate_a in_o any_o opinion_n but_o to_o have_v a_o open_a ear_n for_o reason_n and_o argument_n against_o whatsoever_o he_o hold_v and_o to_o embrace_v or_o reject_v whatsoever_o upon_o further_a search_n he_o find_v to_o be_v agreeable_a to_o or_o dissonant_n from_o god_n holy_a word_n it_o do_v appear_v from_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o presbyter_n and_o from_o this_o letter_n and_o other_o petition_n express_o against_o toleration_n that_o unless_o the_o independent_n and_o separation_n will_v submit_v their_o judgement_n to_o they_o they_o shall_v never_o be_v tolerate_v if_o they_o can_v hinder_v it_o their_o 2._o reason_n be_v that_o it_o be_v not_o yet_o know_v what_o the_o government_n of_o the_o independent_a be_v neither_o will_v they_o ever_o let_v the_o world_n know_v what_o they_o hold_v in_o that_o point_n though_o some_o of_o their_o party_n have_v be_v too_o forward_o to_o challenge_v the_o london_n petitioner_n as_o lead_v with_o blind_a obedience_n and_o pin_v their_o soul_n upon_o their_o priest_n sleeve_n for_o desire_v a_o establishment_n of_o the_o government_n of_o christ_n before_o there_o be_v any_o model_n of_o it_o extant_a their_o 3d._o reason_n be_v much_o to_o the_o same_o purpose_n i_o answer_v 1._o that_o the_o minister_n know_v that_o the_o independent_a government_n for_o the_o general_n be_v resolve_v upon_o by_o the_o independent_n though_o they_o have_v not_o yet_o modelize_v every_o particular_a which_o be_v a_o work_n of_o time_n as_o the_o frame_n of_o the_o pres●●terian_a government_n be_v the_o independent_n however_o have_v divers_a reason_n for_o dissent_v from_o the_o presbyterian_a way_n which_o they_o have_v give_v in_o already_o and_o though_o they_o have_v not_o conclude_v every_o particular_a of_o their_o own_o but_o be_v still_o upon_o the_o search_n and_o enquiry_n yet_o it_o be_v seasonable_a however_o to_o move_v for_o toleration_n for_o that_o the_o ground_n of_o move_v be_v not_o because_o they_o be_v independent_n but_o because_o every_o man_n ought_v to_o be_v free_a in_o the_o worship_n and_o service_n of_o god_n compulsion_n be_v the_o way_n to_o increase_v not_o the_o number_n of_o convert_v but_o of_o hypocrite_n whereas_o it_o be_v another_o case_n for_o people_n to_o move_v for_o establish_v of_o a_o government_n they_o understand_v not_o have_v never_o see_v it_o as_o the_o london_n petitioner_n do_v that_o be_v most_o evident_o a_o give_n up_o of_o the_o understanding_n to_o other_o man_n sure_o the_o presbyter_n themselves_o can_v think_v it_o otherwise_o nor_o yet_o the_o people_n upon_o the_o least_o consideration_n of_o it_o beside_o the_o london_n petitioner_n do_v not_o only_o desire_v as_o here_o the_o minister_n cunning_o say_v a_o establishment_n of_o the_o government_n of_o christ_n but_o a_o establishment_n of_o the_o government_n of_o christ_n a_o model_n whereof_o the_o reverend_a assembly_n of_o divine_n have_v frame_v which_o they_o never_o see_v so_o that_o herein_o the_o people_n be_v abuse_v by_o the_o divine_n by_o be_v put_v upon_o a_o petition_n wherein_o they_o suppose_v that_o government_n which_o they_o never_o see_v to_o be_v christ_n government_n if_o this_o be_v not_o sufficient_a to_o discover_v to_o our_o presbyterian_a lay-brethren_n the_o divine_n confidence_n of_o their_o abilitity_n to_o work_v they_o by_o the_o smoothness_n of_o phrase_n and_o language_n to_o what_o they_o please_v and_o of_o their_o own_o easiness_n and_o flexibility_n to_o be_v so_o lead_v i_o know_v not_o what_o be_v 2._o the_o minister_n urge_v that_o the_o desire_n and_o endeavour_n of_o the_o independ●nts_n for_o toleration_n be_v unreasonable_a and_o unequal_a in_o divers_a regard_n 1._o partly_o because_o no_o such_o toleration_n have_v heitherto_o be_v establish_v sofar_o as_o we_o know_v in_o any_o christian_a state_n by_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n but_o that_o the_o minister_n have_v be_v use_v to_o speak_v what_o they_o please_v for_o ●_z reason_n in_o their_o pulpit_n without_o contradiction_n they_o will_v never_o sure_a have_v let_v so_o slight_a a_o one_o as_o this_o have_v past_a from_o they_o it_o seem_v by_o this_o reason_n that_o if_o in_o any_o christian_a state_n a_o toleration_n by_o the_o magistrate_n have_v be_v allow_v it_o will_v not_o have_v be_v unreasonable_a for_o our_o state_n to_o allow_v it_o the_o practice_n of_o state_n be_v here_o suppose_v to_o be_v the_o rule_n of_o what_o be_v reasonable_a whereas_o i_o have_v think_v that_o the_o practice_n of_o christian_a state_n be_v to_o be_v judge_v by_o the_o rule_n of_o reason_n and_o god_n word_n and_o not_o reason_n by_o they_o that_o which_o be_v just_a and_o reasonable_a be_v constant_a and_o perpetual_o so_o the_o practice_n of_o state_n though_o christian_n be_v variable_a we_o see_v different_a one_o from_o another_o and_o change_v according_a to_o the_o prevalency_n of_o particular_a party_n and_o therefore_o a_o most_o uncertain_a rule_n of_o what_o be_v reasonable_a beside_o the_o state_n of_o holland_n do_v tolerate_v and_o therefore_o the_o minister_n argument_n even_o in_o that_o part_n where_o it_o seem_v to_o be_v most_o strong_a for_o they_o make_v against_o they_o again_o if_o the_o practice_n of_o a_o christian_a state_n be_v a_o sufficien●_n argument_n of_o the_o reasonableness_n of_o a_o toleration_n our_o state_n may_v just_o tolerate_v because_o christian_a and_o because_o they_o be_v free_a to_o do_v what_o ever_o any_o other_o state_n may_v former_o have_v do_v but_o i_o stay_v too_o long_o upon_o so_o weak_a a_o argument_n 2._o partly_o because_o some_o of_o they_o have_v solemn_o profess_v that_o they_o can_v suffer_v presbitary_a and_o answerable_a hereunto_o be_v their_o practice_n in_o those_o place_n where_o independency_n prevail_v it_o be_v unreasonable_a it_o seem_v to_o tolerate_v independent_n because_o independent_n will_v not_o if_o they_o have_v the_o power_n suffer_v presbyter_n a_o very_o christianly_o argument_n and_o take_v out_o of_o the_o 5._o of_o