notice of what Answers have been given unto this as well as other Queries is it not vain-glory to make the world beleeve that the London Ministers in their jus Divinum Min. ch 6. from p. 95. to 103. that Mr. Collins in his vindication Min. from p. 49. to 56. that Mr. Thomas Hall p. 56 to 59. and many others who writ concerning this Text have done nothing worthy Mr. Ives his regard of it 1 Is not an extraordinary Call by extraordinary gifts such an authority from God that no ordinary gifted brother as such may presume to have 2 Were not these in 1 Cor. 14 thus extraordinarily called 3 Were they not expresly called Prophets which is an Office improperly so called pro tempore 4 You may all prophesie can this be meant of any but Prophets is it an argument then for gifted brethren but you say then were all the Church exhorted to covet after extraordinary Offices Answ The word Office here is somewhat improper again it was but temporary and well may it be said that they all ought to seek after these extraordinary gifts which thus qualified them when a Judges place falls all the Serjeants in Town may lawfully seek for it though all cannot obtain it God had promised such gifts and ought they not to seek for them Query 14 If it shall bee said that prophesying here was an ordinary Office then it follows That the whole Church are exhorted to covet to bee ordinary Officers which would bee to make the whole Body of Christ monstrous If it shall bee said That they were not exhorted to prophesie as extraordinary or as ordinary Offices Then I query whether they were not to do it as gifted Brethren since wee never heard of any other way Counter-Query This Query is worth nothing only I query why may not your whole Church covet to bee all ordinary Officers as well as to bee preaching gifted brethren if because it is monstrous to have so many ruling heads is it not as monstrous to have as many speaking tongues in the body of Christ Query 15. Whereas you say That none ought to preach but those that are ordained except as before excepted I query Among those several Ordinations that are in Christendome which of those whether some one of them or all of them bee that which Christ approves of If you say All of them and that the errours of the Administrators in some Circumstances doth not make the Ordination a Nullity Counter-Query 1 Is not this the essential of Ordination viz. a setting apart Men to the Ministry by Ministers 2 Is not this the purity of it viz. when fit persons are duely set apart by Gospel Ministers in that Gospel way and for those Gospel ends a Ministry is appointed there being no superstitious corruption accompanying this Ordinance 3 May there not bee some circumstantial differences even among those that practice this purity in this Ordinance 4 May wee not say then that all the Ordinations in Christendome are approved by Christ that differ but thus circumstantially as well as men of opinions different in many things are accepted by him Query 16. Whether one may not by this Opinion bee lawfully ordained at Rome Counter-Query 1 Dare you say that Rome observes that Gospel purity in this Ordinance 2 Though the substance may be there yet is it not exceeding sinful NOW for US to submit to their impurities Considering that these three things only excuse in errours circumstantial 1 When the errour is so slight that it is no prejudice to the substance nor doth engage to other pernicious errours doth not Ordination among the Papists do this doth it not oblige to obedience to and Mission by that Autichristian See Note that the cases following excuse when this cannot bee pleaded 2 When a sincere aime at the substance is accompanied with ignorance of the errours in circumstance can wee plead ignorance of the errours of Rome or shall wee say that man hath a sincere aime that shall go thither to submit to it NOW 3 When a case of necessity is viz. 1 When we are bound to have the Ordinance its self 2 And when it cannot bee elsewhere had but with these errours and impurities 3 Or when greater evils than those errours would follow Is this our case NOW with Rome though Preachers are bound to submit to that Ordinance of Ordination yet can they not have it else where than at Rome in more purity Answer Sir Is it not in more purity done by the Ministers in England than by those at Rome Query 17. If you shall say The Protestant-Ordination is lawful and that only then I query which of those whether the Episcopal Presbyterian or Independent Ordination bee that which is approved by Christ to impower the Ministers to preach since all these are Protestants and greatly differ in this thing Counter-Query Do you not easily see by what hath been said that the Protestant Ordination only is acknowledged to bee lawful to us NOW Do you not as easily see the Episcopal Presbyterian and the most sober independent Ministers own the essence of this Ordinance viz. that it is a setting apart men to the Ministry by Ministers 2 That they practice the purity by setting apart fit men in a Gospel way for those Gospel ends a Ministry is appointed without superstitious intermixtures 3. Ought wee not then to say that ordination by all or any of them is approved by Christ and true Christians to impower Ministers to preach notwithstanding they may differ in some circumstantials Query 18. If you say All of these are lawful then were not the Ministers of the Episcopal way greatly out in crying up the Ordination by Bishops to bee the onely Authoritative Ordination in opposition to that of the Presbytery And that they did so will appear if you consult Dr. Jer. Taylor Chaplain to the late King in his Book called Episcopacy asserted page 120 121 122. It is cleer saith hee that Bishops were to do some Acts which the Presbyters COULD NOT do one of which hee calls Ordination by imposition of hands which hee saith was not to bee done by Presbyters Again the said Doctor saith That the Apostles did impose Hands for confirmation which saith hee was to continue in the Church and could not bee done by the seventy or any MEER Presbyter And for this hee cites the constant practice of the Fathers and the Opinions of divers Churches Therefore pray tell mee if this be that Ordination which a man must have without which his Preaching is sinful Counter-Query Is it not unchristian to charge the errour of one man though a worthy man upon the rest of the Episcopal way is it not evident that the most of them judged themselves to ordain as Ministers and not as meer Bishops Doth not Mr. Baxter say in his second sheet that Bishop Vsher did acknowledge Ordination by Presbyters without a Bishop to be vallid and that hee answered King Charles by an instance that
2 But why would not Mr. Willes answer mee A. I suppose I prevented him truly it is not worthy the while and is not this your cunning by such Pamphlets to draw him off by imploying him from further prosecuting this subject Q. 3 But why will not Mr. Willes dispute with mee A. Alas you see what rashness you are guilty of by seeing how a mean man can deal with you and what little need there was of it Q. 4 But why were the people so rude when I desired publick satisfaction A. It is the trick of the Devil first to be the cause of an offence and then to accuse for it Q. 5 But why do I answer you by Counter-Queries A. That you may see how easie it is for a fool to aske more Questions than a wise man can answer The Confident QUESTIONIST QUESTIONED OR The Querists Questions Answered by COUNTER-QUERIES The Question stated by Mr. Ives Mr. Willes ONe thing asserted by you was That it was not lawful for any to preach ordinarily and constantly but such as were ordained except it was for approbation or in cases of necessity when such Ordination cannot bee had SIR Reply YOu have so ingenuously stated the Question that I hope in my following Queries I shall not need upon every occasion to mention the termes ordinarily and constantly and the exceptions viz. the cases of approbation and necessity Query 1. Whether any thing can bee charged as sin upon any but what is against a Divine Law since the Apostle saith Rom. 4.5 Where there is no Law there is no transgression 1 John 3.4 Sin is the transgression of a Law Counter-Query As that must needs bee a sin which is against a Divine Law 1 Joh. 3.4 so is not that a sin which is practised as a Gospel duty and hath no law or foundation in the Gospel Who hath required these things at your hands Query 2. Whether by any Law of God it is a sin for men that are gifted for the Ministery to preach the truth of Christ to the edification of their Brothren although they were not put upon it by reason of your supposed necessity or though they should never bee ordained to office Counter-Query Must not then unordained mens preaching be sinful seeing they not onely have no law for it if they have shew it but unwarrantably transgress a Divine institution Query 3. If there bee any Law manifesting such a practise to bee sinful pray tell mee where that Law is written that so I may see my errour and reform Counter-Query First Is not that an Apostolical Institution for the ordination of Ministers Tit. 1.5 Ordain Elders in every City 2 Is not publick teaching an act of that office as well as baptizing being both joyned in the same commission Mat. 28.19 Is there any difference put 3 Are not unordained men that are teachers usurpers upon that office and transgressours of that Divine Institution do not you see your errour by this Query 4. If there bee a liberty for gifted men to preach in order to their approbation for Office as you confess pray tell mee whether they do not preach in the capacity of gifted Brethren before their Ordination since they cannot preach by vertue of Office while as yet they are not in it Counter-Query Is there not a third thing which you forget viz. that Approbationers preach neither as meer gifted Brethren nor as lawfully constituted Officers But as having by consent of Ministers who have power to confer the Office leave to preach in relation to an Office Doth a Boy you take upon likeing sell your Cheese as hee is fit to sell it or as your Apprentice if as fit to sell it then every boy may have that right that is so fitted as your Apprentice hee can not because not bound therefore datur tertium hee sells it with your consent in relation to bee bound Query 5. If they preach as gifted Brethren before their Ordination then I quere How long they may thus preach till their preaching becomes sinful Counter-Query Is it not a sin and an usurpation all the while they preach without the forementioned relation Do you preach as a gifted Brother or not if as a gifted brother ought you not to shew what law you have expresly to warrant it if as one in Office how came you by it were you ordained by Ministers or not if by Ministers whether by Protestant or Popish that you may assure us of your Office But if by a Church I aske are not Election and Ordination distinct things do you ever read that the Church did any thing but elect ought you not to shew some authority from a Divine Institution the Church hath to ordain or else do you not run before sent Query 6. If you say Till the Ministry of Presbyters approve them and are very well satisfied with their abilities and qualifications for that imployment then I quere How if this man whom they approve of is unsatisfied with their power to ordain him is it then a sin for him to preach till hee is satisfied with their power Counter-Query Seeing Approbationers preach in relation to an Office ought not others to bee accounted rather intruders than Approbationers But if truly Approbationers ought they to preach any longer than till approved can you think Ministers would approve him to bee in Office that owned not their power to ordain him doth hee preach by vertue of the Ministers consent in relation to an Office that owns not their power but rather as a gifted brother and a transgressour of the Gospel Order and Institution How can you bee satisfied with the power of the Church to ordain had it been the Churches work why did not the Apostle enjoyn the Romans Corinthians Galatians Ephesians Philippians Thessalanions to ordain Ministers rather than Timothy and Titus If it bee as you say why did hee mention it at all to these Ministers Timothy and Titus and why is hee quite silent of it to the Churches in all those Epistles if it bee not rather the Ministers work than the Churches Query 7. How if a man bee gifted and inabled to preach the Gospel to edification and comfort and yet findes himself very short of a power to rule the Church of God as that Office requires or it may bee wants faithful Children such as are not accused of ryot it may bee hee hath not power over his passion but may bee soon angry c. which are those qualifications that Paul tells Timothy and Titus MUST bee found in such officers See 1 Tim. 3.4 5. Tit. 1.6 7. I quere from hence whether a man should sin to use those gifts God hath blessed him withal out of Office because hee hath not all those qualifications that are required before hee bee admitted to Office Counter-Query Are you not bound ere there will bee any strength in this Query to shew by some law that a man may exercise a part of that office with which hee is not
example to a Beleever in charity 1 Tim. 4.12 I query then whether back-biting tale-bearing and taking up a reproach against your Neighbour be not contrary to the Law of Charity and whether you were not guilty of this when you told a Gentleman that lives at High-gate who is ready to witnesse the truth hereof That you were enformed I was a Jesuite and therefore told him he would doe well to apprehend me Truly Sir if you doe not tell me who informed you I shall say it was a slander of your owne devising either thereby to take away my life for that is the punishment the Law hath provided for Jesuites by the Stat. of Eliz. 27.2 or else if that Gentlemn would have been ruled by you that I might have been laid in Goal right or wrong to the undoing of my self and Family till I could have cleared my self of the supposed Crime in open Sessions This must needs bee your design otherwise why did you encourage him to apprehend me as a Jesuite but more of this in a more convenient place where I doubt not of reparation only let me tell you That if you could as easily prove the Affirmative viz. That you are sent of God to preach and that all you preach is true as I can prove the Negative that I am no Jesuite the controversie between us would soon be ended Counter-Query Do you not see by Mr. Willes his Letter how much you are to blame thus in Print to take up a reproach against him and that upon the bare information of such a single person did hee ever assert you to be a Jesuite At the most hee only said you were suspected and this hee spake in private And indeed who would not suspect that man to be Jesuitical who was cryed out on to be such to his face in a great Congregation at Clements beyond Temple-Bar that hath the vox populi to accuse him of it That is reported to have converse with Jesuites that liv'd a conceal'd I had almost said a suspected life for some years together in and about London that hath Jesuitical opinions and designs especially to pluck down the Ministry of England or to make it odious That these grounds of suspition may be had concerning you I shall not assert but only wish that we had no more ground to suspect you to be Jesuitical then Mr. Willes to be uncharitable in accusing you or erroneous in what is here controverted and I make no question but you would in your next subscribe your self a friend to Mr. Willes and this Truth in some measure vindicated Confess the Truth and glorifie God Amen Reader there are faults in the printing which are not much material only correct p. 31. l. 4. read with for as POST-SCRIPT REader I thought it necessary to advertise thee of a few things 1 That to mee it is a great sign that that is a Truth and a Truth of great concernment which when it is asserted or taught men of corrupt minds are enraged at and oppose They would have the Servants sleep that being their time of sowing Tares therefore it is very observeable that when ever godliness was most likely to encrease when the Ministry have been most famous and active then the Devil hath stirred up deadly enemies and opposers this hath been in all ages this wee sadly experience in our daies Was there ever a more learned pious famous Ministry in England than now there is I challenge even its enemies and amongst them Mr. Ives to contradict it if they can And shall wee not sigh at it had ever the Ministry of England so great and so many Designers to undermine it But the Father of Truth usually so blesseth his own cause that it gets by opposition thus wee can say of this truth of Ordination of Ministers which in my knowledge hath gotten ground by these late Broyles Gather your selves together and you shall bee broken in peeces for the Lord is with us Isa 8.9 10. Mat. 28.20 2 That those that have Designs against the Truth have usually some plausible pretence to carry them on the Devil hath got the Art now adaies to wrap himself in a Prophets Mantle to appear as an Angel of light in his choycest Instruments who usually with a seeming religious garb footh up with soft words till they may opportunely change their Court-ships into calumnies Hath not Mr. Ives worthily shown himself for Ordination of Ministers as hee pretends that would make the world beleeve that the present godly Ministry is Antichristian if hee could and that hath thus thrust himself into a quarrel against it 3 That those that design the propagating of their errours will for the most part oppose their hands will bee against every man but seldome assert their own opinion and prove it is it not because it is easier to quarrel with truth than to prove an errour and because that is a time to break in when the ranks are first shattered to broach errours when men are staggered in the truth or is not this the end viz. to bee alway accusing of others that they themselves may never bee questioned or called to justifie their own practices Hath not Mr. Ives plaid his part in this by opposing every man not of his own way that wee might beleeve what hee asserts to bee truth Hath hee not done so in these Queries where doth hee bring the least positive truth or one Argument to justifie his own practice or to state what is right Hath hee brought one probable Argument to prove that gifted brethren may preach or that people may hear them that the Church ought to ordain and not Ministers hath hee unfolded any of those independent Riddles viz. that a company of those that are baptized and owne their Baptisme are not Members of a Visible Church Or that a Minister being such in relation to his Church acts no longer as in Office than to his Church and that at one and the same time and place hee preacheth as a meer gifted Brother to those that are not of his Church and as a Minister to those of his Church thus thou mayest see his spirit of Opposition and his design to cry out on others that none may suspect his cause as cut-purses that they may may not bee accused Ought hee not to do otherwise the next time 4 That this task I have here undertaken is the first and therefore may bee guilty of mistakes of which I begge thy pardon and do promise thee that nothing but what is more than ordinarily material shall provoke mee to spend my own time in writing or thine in reading Bee zealous for the truth pray for its progress and bee thankful to God for any satisfaction thou shalt receive by him who is thy concealed Friend N. E. FINIS