bee aduouched but also Gods whole ordinaunce in the institution of his holy sacramentes quite ouerthrowen For if it were true that ther were no more required to make substantiall baptisme as you here require no more but to baptise in the name of the trinitie then these impious absurdities would follow therof 1 That an Amalekite might deliuer true circumcision as touching the substance 2 That true baptism might bee administred vnto a substaunce not capable of baptisme but this odious instaunce I will not vrge 3 That a woman 4 That any man not being a minister as a child of fiue yeares olde a Turke or Iewe might deliuer true baptism as touching the substance For these pronouncing the wordes of institution might reteine by your reason the essential form of Christes baptisme and so to vse your owne wordes they baptizing not in the name of Pope or of Idols but of the holy trinitie should deliuer Gods baptism and not mans if Gods baptisme then true baptisme I am sure in like manner by this reason they should be Catabaptistes which denie men to be rightly baptized by Turks or women I would be full sorie that the errors of the Katabaptists or Anabaptistes coulde not be confuted by you withe sounder reasons then this you haue brought and I would be also sorie that you should defende such absurd cōsequents as I wil driue you whether you will or no vnlesse you reuoke as I hope you will that which you haue writtē pardone me I pray you I deale as reuerently as I may with you retaining the maiestie of the cause I defend and I deale not against you but against an erroneous assertion which I now leaue desiring you very earnestly that you woulde consider how vnreuerently the ordinance of God in the holy sacraments is dealt with when the same is made to depend vpon the pronouncing of a few syllables without any consideration eyther of the person who is to administer or of the substantiall forme of consecration contained in the exposition of the holy institution of baptisme and the inuocation of the name of God al which are necessarily required in the administration of baptisme and could not possibly be in Aegypt where all was and couered vnder the darknesse of a strange tongue Your distinction that popish priests haue a calling though a faltie is a begging of the question For as I haue shewed popish priestes haue no calling at all in the Church and therefore how can they sit in the chaire of the ministerie Is there a ministery out of the Church Caiphas his priesthood commeth afterwarde to bee considered of The seconde point is to be handled next That vnpreaching ministers are no ministers They are affirmed to bee no ministers not because they are euill ministers but because their ministerye is an euill and profane mininistery So that in this pointe the faulte is not found with the euil minister but with the euill ministery Their ministery is profane and euill because there is no mention made of it in the word And a ministerye not mentioned in the worde is no ministery but a profane constitution For the Lorde hath expressely set downe euerye ministerie of the new testament that should be in the Church vnto the worlds ende Ephe. 2.11 wheras he hath not once mentioned the ministery of our readers because it is not a preaching ministerye The summe of this whole controuersie is contayned in these three axiomes 1 Euery ministery is expressely set downe in the word Rom. 12.6.7.8 1. Cor. 42.28 rom 10.14 1. Cor. 1.21 2 Euery ministery of the newe testament is a preaching ministery 8 The ministery of our vnpreaching ministers is not a preaching ministerye If you can shewe eyther of these 3. points to be false I am ouerthrowne if neyther you must yeeld The truth of all three I haue shewed out of the word in the last edition of my book The two former are confirmed by the places quoted on the margent the latter I will briefly prooue by these reasons 1 If the ministery of vnpreaching ministers be a preaching ministerye or if their function be a pastorall or doctorall function then there had bene a preaching ministery a pastorall and doctorall function known in the Church though there neuer had bene anye preacher therein Otherwise howe can their ministerye bee a preaching ministery or their function bee a pastorall function whereas the same may bee in the Churche no preaching ministery or pastorall function beeing knowne there But no Churche much lesse a ministery had there beene knowne if there neuer had bene any that coulde haue preached because God ordained the saints and so a Churche onely to be gathered together by preaching ordinarily but not by the ministery of readers because it might haue bene in the world and yet no saint gathered thereby which thing experience in our Churche prooueth to bee to true My 2. and 3 reasons are drawn out of these words of Paule Rom. 13.6.7.8 Seeing then that wee haue giftes that are diuers acording to the grace that is giuen vnto vs whether wee haue prophesie let vs prophesie according to the proportion of fayth or an office let vs wait on the office or hee that teacheth on teaching or he that exhorteth on exhorting c. the 2. reason is thus concluded Whosoeuer hath receiued a ministerye and so a pastorall or doctorall function he hath receiued prophesie spoken of in this place verse 6. Because euery pastoral or doctorall function mencioned in the 7. 8. verse vnder these words he that teacheth hee that exhorteth are contained vnder the word prophesie verse 6. Insomuch as he that hath not receiued that prophesie there set down wherby is ment the interpretation of the worde he hath not receiued the pastorall or doctoral function set down vers 7.8 But vnpreaching ministers haue not receiued the prophesie spoken of in this place which is expresly set downe verse 6. to bee one of the diuers gifts bestowed for the gouermēt of the body which is the church Therefore also they haue receiued neither a pastorall nor a doctorall function and so no preaching ministerye 3 No ministery is seperated from a gift because prophesie spoken of in this 6. verse vnder which as we see euery pastorall and doctorall ministery is contayned can not bee seuered from a gift but the ministery of our readers is seuered in them from a gyft therefore in them it is no ministery It is no ministerye in them I say although that ministerye the generall name whereof they haue is not seuered from a gift in preaching ministers but what is that to them what is the ministerye of other men vnto them they are not ministers by the ministery wherewith other men are endued but by their own which being seuered from a gifte is no ministery Paul had bene no Apostle and had receiued no Apostleslip vnlesse he coulde haue sayde I am a minister according vnto the grace giuen vnto me Ephe. 3.7 and not
according to the grace giuen vnto other Apostles the generall name of whose Apostleship I am entituled with A ridiculous speeche it were to saye mine apostleshipp hath receiued grace but I that am the apostle haue receiued none How then may our readers claime a preachinge ministerye vnto themselues seing the ministery which they challenge is altogether in them with out a gifte though it be not so in others 4 Euery vnpreaching minister sinneth in executing the works of a pastoral function as the sacraments c therefore he hath no ministery and so nyether a pastorall nor doctorall function Hee hath no ministery because his calling is not the calling of the ministery his callinge is not the calling of the ministerye because hee sinneth in intermedlinge withe the workes thereof And this is an infallible trueth that no man sinneth because he dealeth with the workes of his calling For this is the duety that God requireth at the hands of euery man Manye sinne in deede because they walk corruptly in their callings haue no care to glorifie God therin Col. 3.17 But leaue thy corruption and thou sinnest not in keeping thee to the works of thy calling The hypocrits in the daies of Isayah 1.13 sinned not because they offered sacrifice but because they did the same through hypocrisie Their hypocrisie they ought to haue lefte but not his seruice in sacrificing according to his commaundement but our readers though they should with as little corruption and as great zeale to Gods glory and the good of his Churche as any men deale in the workes of a pastoral ministery yet they should stil do that which the Lord had forbidden them to doe whence it appeareth that the works of the ministery are not the works of their caling For God forbiddeth no man to deale therewith not the being workes of their calling they are no ministers and haue neyther pastorall nor doctorall function 5 This is farther shewed forasmuch as the Lorde doeth not commit vnto bare reders the charge of those souls ouer whom they are which he doth vnto euerye one that hath a pastorall function Acts. 20.16.28 1 thes 5.12 Heb. 13.17 For to what ende else should he commit a ministerye vnto anye who haue soules vnder their charge The Church indeed may cōmit the souls of men vnto reders but certainly the Lord committeth none vnto them And he is no minister vnto whom the Lorde doth not cōmite this charge as the places before quoted do shew For the Lord hath in his word ordained not onely offices the executors whereof shoulde haue the ouersight of soules but also the persons who were to execute those functions 1. Cor. 12.28 1. Pet. 4.10 rom 12.6.7.8 Ephes 4.7.11 Now vnpreaching ministers are non of those persons because the Lorde knoweth thē not to bee able to feede soules And let not men bee so iniurious vnto the Lorde as to affirme that hee according vnto his reuealed ordinance for therof I speke as of a ministery not of his secret iudgments bequeathed the soules of men to be starued and kept from saluation As hee must needes be conuinced to doe if he bequeathed them vnto those men the dispensation of whose ministery is able to beget none feede none saue none you must vnderstande againe that I speake of the ministery whereby readers are ministers that is of their owne and not of the ministery whereby preaching ministers are ministers wherewith readers haue nothing to doe Moreouer howe can the Lorde bee saide to commit the charge of soules according to his owne reuealed ordinance vnto those who may truely obiect vnto him that he dealeth iniuriously with thē by exacting those thinges to bee perfourmed at their handes and in their owne persons as necessary duties of their callings vnto the performaunce whereof they haue receiued no abilitie from him Is man to bee aunswerable vnto the Lorde of that which he neuer receyued doth the Lorde require the vse of that tallent which hee neuer bestowed doth he laye that vpon any whereof hee may haue iuste cause to complaine when did hee impose a charge vpon any vnto whom he gaue not gifts to discharge the same now the charge of soules whiche he committeth vnto anye hee requireth at their handes vnto whom he hath cōmitted it which he could not doe if hee had not giuen abilitie to the discharge thereof What then shall ignoraunt ministers be free from the blood of souls in asmuch as the lord neuer cōmitted any soule vnto their charge It were well with thē poore men if the case so stood But alas it is not so And yet the cause of their destruction proceedeth not from their vnfaithfulnesse in the discharge of that vocation whiche hee hath allotted vnto them but it commeth iustly vpon them in that they haue desperatly thrust thēseiues contrary vnto Gods reuealed will vpon those men with the ouersight of whose soules God neuer trusted such as they are The Lord sayth vnto them intrude your seiues and you will vnto the places of pastors and so enforce me to bring heauy swift damnation vpon you but surely I wil bequeath no soule vnto your custodye They on the other side in their practise say Lord whether thou committest vnto vs any charge of any soule or no wee care not but rather then wee shoulde not haue the meanes to liue in this life for this is their onely scope in continuinge in the ministerye require the blood of soules and what thou wilte at our hands And so senseles men they sell them-selues body and soule vnto euerlasting wo and destruction The pretence that the Lord committeth the chardge of soules vnto their ministery and not vnto them is first a desiring of that in question for they are denyed to haue any ministery and otherwise many wais vnsufficient 1 Because the Lord committeth not the charge of soules there where the punishement of their destruction cannot take holde as it can not vpon the ministery Act. 20.28 2 the ministry is but a dead thing of it self most beautifull in deed as being an ordinance of the Lorde but able to saue none vnlesse it be committed vnto a person who in the execution therof is able to shew himself to be appointed of God for that glorious worke This is taught Ephes 4. where the Apostle verses 6 and 7. hauing spoken of the giftes bestowed vpon men for this ministeriall work ascribeth vers 11.12 the gathering together of the sayntes not vnto the giftes or functions but vnto men endued with the sayde giftes For he doth not say that the Lord hath appointed for the gathering together of the saynts an apostleshipp a pastorall or doctorall function c. but that he ordained apostles pastors c. for that end and purpose whereunto because our readers were not appoynted it forcibly ensueth that they haue no ministery no pastorall or doctorall function and so are no ministers which conclusiō also in the last edition of mine Exhortation vnto my
A defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie and the communicating with them By IOHN PENRI THere bee two thinges M. D. Some wherein you by oppugning that trueth which out of the worde of God I had sette downe concerning the two former questions haue beene wanting both vnto your selfe and to the cause the defence whereof you vndertook The former want of the 2. appeareth by your spare dealing in a matter of such great waight wherein you haue dealt with so illiberall a hande that what hath bin written by you might seem to proceed rather from any then frō a man whose giftes and learning seemed to promise the affordinge of greater and more waightie matters then any set downe in that treatise The nomber of my resons were many you onely haue touched 2. of thē the rest are not dealt with And therfore the cause as yet remaineth whol For be it you had aunswered these 2. as you haue not yet had you not satisfied the doutful cōscience of those that know not in these points which way to turn them as long as any one of my reasons remained vnanswered In this point there is also another want which I would had bin redressed And that is of two sorts First a manifest going from the controuersie For the question being whether ignorant men not ordained of God for the gatheringe together of the Saints be ministers or no you leaue that and prooue the Sacraments administred by them viz. by popishe priests and our dumbe ministers in the daies of blindnes and ignorance to be sacraments which is no part of the matter in controuersie but another point to be discussed if men will be gotten at all to enter therevnto when the former is determined and decided Secondly your reasons are so few so commonly knowen vnto all that for their nomber a small deate of paper might containe an answere vnto them for their noueltie they coulde not put a man that had accordinge vnto knowledge but once allowed of the cause to anye great labour in answering them As being things so commonly obiected by all learned or vnlearned that holde our readers to be ministers and thinke it lawfull to cōmunicate with them as by cours of spech they fal vnto that discourse wher al men may easily see that there was a great ouersight committed by M. SOME in deeming that the oppugning of a cause countenanced by most of the godly learned would be taken in hand by any who could not answere the reasons which he might be sure would be obiected by al. And who could be ignorant that the odious controuersie cōcerning the profanation of baptisme both by popish priests our dumb ministers would offer it selfe in the forefront to withstand the trueth that the ciuill magistracie the ministerie of the dumbe Leuites the corrupt outward calling of our readers woulde require an answere which are the reasons and the onely reasons vsed by you The last want I finde in you is contained in the insufficiency of your resons which euidently shew the insufficiencie of the cōclusion that would be inferred by them Your resons are all of them faultie eyther because they desire that for granted which is the question or make those things of like nature wherin there is a gret dissimilitude Frō the first of the 2. falts it commeth to passe that you take for granted that the writings of reuerende and godly men as of Augustine M. Beza c. will prooue that which the word of the eternall God doth not warrant Hence you take it graunted that popish priests were ministers that the outwarde approbation of the Churche maketh a minister that whensoeuer the word of institution is pronounced with the outward element ther must presently be a Sacrament that I take an euill minister for no minister that there was a nullity both of Caiphas his ministerie because he came in by briberye and of the litigious ministers in the Church of Philippi c. How soeuer you take those things as granted principles 1. Phil. 1.15 yet they are the points in controuersie and so far from beeing yelded vnto by me that I haue shewed euery one of them to be manifestly false The dissimilitude is in the reasons drawn from the Leuitical priesthood and the ciui magistracie with whom if you compare the ministery of the new couenaunt you shall finde firste that you bring in a similitude to shew that whiche is not prooued and secondly that you make those to bee twinnes which all men must needes graunt to be as vnlike as crooked straight lines are vnmatchable And thus much I thought needfull generally to set downe concerninge your manner of dealing Not that I wold any way disgrace you whō I reuerence for that is no part of mine intent the Lorde is my witnes Nay I would be loth to let that syllable escape me that might giue you or any els the least occasion in the world to thinke that I carrye any other heart towards you then I ought to beare towards a reuerend learned man fearing God And howsoeuer vnles you alter your iudgment I can neuer agre with you in these pointes because I am assured you swarue frō the truth yet this disagreement shal be so farre from making a breach of that bonde of loue wherewith in the Lord I am tyed vnto you that I doubt not but we shal be at one in that day when al of vs shall be at vnitie in him that remayneth one and the selfe-same for euer Now I am to come to your booke from the 20. page whereof vnto the 28. laying the foundation of the reasons you vse against mee to prooue the lawfulnes of communicatinge with dum ministers you handle two neadles points First that they which were baptized by popish priests haue receiued true baptim as touching the substance Secondly that they are the sacramentes of baptisme and the holy supper of the Lorde which are deliuered in the Church of England by vnpreching ministers In these two pointes M. Some you haue prooued nothing that my writinges haue denied but you haue quickened a dead controuersie not vnlikely to giue the wrangling spirits of this age cause to breed greater sturres in the Church I see no other effect which the handling of these questions can bringe foorth but this And it is to be feared that the slendernes of the reasons vsed in your booke to prooue that which you haue vndertaken to shew will geeue occasion vnto mannie whoe of them-selues are too too readie to iangle to doubt of that wherof before they made no question So that by seeking to stay the course of a needful cōtrouersie you haue both giuen it a larger passage and opened the doore vnto a question very fruitlesse in our time you know I deale in neither of these pointes If you cannot be stayed from entring into controuersies that are very odious and more impertinent vnto the matter in hand it were
good that the church were further and more soundly satissied by you in these 2. pointes which you alone in our Churche haue publikly called in question And for mine owne parte when you haue done I know not who will be your aduersarie I see no reason whie I should deal in controuersies of so smal gaine Of this I am assured that neyther popish priests nor any other ignoraunt guides are ministers whether the element administred by thē be a sacrament or no look you to that which haue in your treatise debated that which my writings neuer called into question If you wil needs proue readers to be ministers because you can not get me to denie that which hath bene administred to be a sacrament you shall but presse that which will prooue nothing Your reason is as if you shoulde saye that eyther all they which supplie the places of ministers are ministers or els an inconuenience is likely to follow A strange manner of demonstration Gods ordinaunce must needs be thrust out of the dores because an inconuenience would be likely to ensue the admittinge of it The cause will not be thus answered at your hands and I am sorie that a man so reuerende in mine eyes hath dealt so vnsubstantially in a matter belonging to the seruice of the euerliuing God the slendernesse of the reason is apparant In the latter ende of the booke I haue farther shewed the same thither I am to referre you and the reader Now I coulde well ouerpasse these two pointes because of them-selues they containe nothing that I haue withstoode But in as muche as you haue not onely grounded them vpō false principles and such as in no wise can be warraunted by the canon of the word but also inferre vpon their grant that our readers are ministers and consequently that it is no sinne to communicate with them I am first to set downe the state of the question which in deed is and ought to be decided betweene you and me concerninge the elemente administred both by popish priests and other vnpreaching ministers and secondly to examine the groundes whereby you prooue the element alreadie deliuered by them to be a sacrament which you know I do not denie to be so And this is the point that concerneth our state rather then the other The question therefore is not whether the one or the other of them haue deliuered a sacrament in respect of the action done but whether a christian going vnto them for those holy seales may be assured that hee can receiue the same at their handes I affirme that wee can not M. Some taketh it graunted that we may my warrant is out of the worde because there is no promise made to vs therin that the action celebrated by such men is a sacramentall action and where there is no promise there can bee no assuraunce because our assurance ariseth onely of fayth whiche must be grounded vpon the promises set downe in the word wee haue no promise that they can deliuer vs a sacrament because they are no ministers For they onely are enioyned by our Sauiour Christ to deliuer a sacrament Matth. 28.18.19 neither do we know what hee can deliuer which is no minister So that the question is now growne to this issue whether popish priestes and our vnpreachinge ministers bee ministers or no whom if I can proue to be none then the matter is cleare that no man going vnto them for the sacrament can assure himselfe there to haue the same And this shall be a generall reason equally belonginge vnto both the pointes handeled by you the particulars whereof shal follow in their places That no popishe priest therefore is a minister 1 Euery minister must be at the least by profession a member of the true Church No popish prist is by profession a member of the true Church Therfore no popish priest is a minister 2 Euery minister hath an office with in the bodie of the Churche No popishe priest hath an office within the bodie of the Church Therfore no popish priest is a minister The propositions or first part of both these reasons are set downe euidently and plainely by the wisedome of God in these wordes For as we haue many members in one bodie Rom. 12.4 5.6 and all members haue not one office so we being many are one bodie in Christ and euerye one an others members seeing then that we haue giftes that are diuers c. The place sheweth cleerly that whosoeuer is not a member is not of the bodie if not of the body then no minister A gaine whosoeuer is no member he hath no office in the bodie if no office no minister He that should obiect that in this place is mente a member of the bodie by election in the secret counsell of God and not in the acknowledgemente of the Church by profession would not deserue the answering Because it is vocation and not election that maketh such a member in the church as may haue an office therein of which sort the Apostle speaketh in this place by vocation I meane that whereof the holy ghoste speaketh where it is said Many are called but few are chosen Matth. 20.10 neither can any man denie him to be a member of the Churche which by outward profession submitteth himselfe vnto true religion and such are the members whereof the Apostle speaketh To be a member so the true Church is one thing and to bee a true member of the Church is another thing namely such as are mēbers in the iudgement of the Church Iudas was a member in the iudgement of the Churche though not belonging to election A further proofe of the propositions you shall find 1. cor 12.26.28 Hee was no priest in the olde testament that was not a Iewe by profession yea and of the line of Aaron to and shall he be accounted a minister amōg vs that is a stranger from the profession of the trueth a professed Idolater Ishmael Esau were circumcized and the sonnes of those fathers vnto whome the couenaunt was made Euen I will be thy God the God of thy seed They their posterities fell from true religion well admit that the profanatiō of circumcisiō had stil cōtinued in their houses yet a man supplying the place of a priest among them was no priest in deed thogh he ten thousand times profaned circumcision and woulde brag neuer so often that he worshipped after his Idolatrous maner no other God but the God of his father Abraham sware onely by the feare of his father Isaak The reason herof is because that euery priest vnder the law must be an Israelite by professiō that is a member of the true Church neither could any of the godly assure them-selues that an Edomitishe priest administred true circumcision according to the substance Now I rekō of a popish prist no otherwise thē I would haue done of an Ismaelitishe or Edomitish circumcisiser the
countrimen I haue enforced by manye strong and as I am assured inuincible reasons drawne out of the infallible trueth of Gods worde I woulde intreate yon M. Some when you haue answered the reasons I haue nowe set downe to answere also the 1.2.3 and 25. reason that I haue there vsed For you shall but striue in vayne against the conclusion as long as the premises whereby it is inferred remaine firme If the reader woulde be further satisfied in this poynte concerning the dumbe ministery he is to be referred vnto that which in the aforesaid treatise I haue set downē Nowe to the conclusion If vnpreaching ministers be no ministers and if I cannot be assured to receiue a sacrament but onely at the hands of a minister both which you see M. Some to be prooued by me then cannot I assure my selfe that an vnpreaching minister can deliuer a sacrament vnto me and therefore it is vnlawfull for me or any christian to go vnto an vnpreaching minister for the sacraments if vnlawfull then a sinne if a sin thē the godly are polluted which goe vnto them for the sacramentes you know M. Some what I meane by an vnpreaching minister namely euery one learned or vnlearned that cannot shewe him-selfe by the good trial of his gifts to haue that fitnes to teach whereof we read 2. tim 2.2.1 tim 3.3 which ability the Lord doth not ordinarily bestowe vpon any in these our dayes without the knowledge of the artes especially the two handmaydes of all learninge Rhethoricke and Logick and the two originall tongues wherein the worde was written And therefore I am as farre from accounting the vnskilfull preachers which speake hand ouer-head they care not what againste whom your complaint is very iust to be ministers as I am from acknowledging many of our absurd doctors to be apt to teach who can bring nothing into the pulpit but that which other men haue written and that very often so fit to the purpose of edification as the reason from the corner to the staffe is soundly concluded In these three sortes of supposed ministers and there could be a fourth added vnto them consisteth the woe of our Church The rest of your booke is nowe to be examined Your conclusion page 22. that they which were baptized by vnpreching ministers are rightly baptized as touching the substaunce of baptisme I do not gainsay Your reasons are weake For how coulde wee proue your conclusion if men should denie popish baptism to be true baptism as I do not you know he shuld do me great iniurie which would lay that to my charge Were it sufficient for vs to say they were Katabaptistes which denie popishe baptisme How could this be proued and this should not prooue the matter doubted off Shall wee saye that they sinne in not presenting themselues to be baptized To whome shoulde they present themselues who would baptize thē Admit they sinned in receauing the Lords Supper before they were baptized should they therefore bee bereaued of the comfort of baptisme to affirme that this weare a goinge backward is no reason because they were perswaded that they had baptisme otherwise they would not haue beene so farr on their iourney vntill they had beene accompanied therewith But they omitted baptisme of ignorance and not of contemt therfore they denie the receiuing of the Lordes supper to haue bene a sinne anye more then it woulde be a sinne in them nowe to receiue the Lordes supper if they coulde not haue baptisme Baptisme they woulde haue if they coulde orderlye come by the same Because men will bee so iniurious vnto them as to denie them the comfort of baptisme which they cannot haue should they denie to themselues the comfort of the Lords supper which they may haue Ye but no vncircumcised might eate the pascall lambe Exod. 12.48 True But what shall we say vnto those that were vncircumcised in the wildernesse fortie yeres almost Iosh 5.5 Did they neuer eate the passeouer all that time If they did the place of Exodus will be quickly answered It is plaine that the passeouer was celebrated in the wildernes once at the least Nom. 9.1 If euery yeare why should the godly of the family be excluded from the family be excluded from the action the cause why they were vncircumcised not being in them None vncircumcised might minister before the altar True but did non of the Leuits that were borne in the wildernesse teach Iaacob the law or offer the incense of his God in all those fourtye yeares Thus many thinges you see might be obiected against your reasons I take the obiections to bee of some waight It had bin well you had considered of them before you had published your booke And the baptisme by vnpreaching ministers must haue better prooffes then anye you haue brought as yet or else I feare me our posterities will not be satisfied therwith Your next reason page 23. is slender Readers pronounce the wordes of institution with the deliuerie of the element therfore saye you they deliuer a sacrament you haue once already alledged this to prooue popish baptisme page 20. I haue answered it page 29. 30. 31. And the place of Matth. 28.29 brought in by you page 23. proueth your consequent to bee false For it sheweth that he who is to baptise must bee also able to teache which abilitie is wanting in our readers Go sayth our Sauiour and teach all nations baptizing c. Therefore if he that deliuereth the element bee not able to teach we cannot be assured that it is a sacrament Because the commandement is not generally to all that could pronounce the wordes of institution beeing thereunto permitted by the corruptiō of the time but perticularly limited vnto them that can teache vnlesse you will saye that the Lorde biddeth thē go teach who cannot teach whiche were not once to be concerned of his maiestie The corruptiō in the Church of England that the deliuery of the element shold be seuered from the preaching of the word is a breach of Gods ordinance you cannot deny Matth. 28 19. act 20.7 and therefore vngodly and intollerable Whether it mak the action frustrate or no that is not the question Your 3. reason pag. 24. is this Vnpreaching ministers do ad an edifying word vnto the element therfore it is a sacramente This reason is the same with the former which sheweth the great nakednes and pouerty of the cause that one reason must be thrise periured to proue the goodnes of it which notwithstanding it cānot shew I deny the antecedent consequent Your reason of the antecedent that the recitall of the sum of Christs Sermon that is the wordes of institution is an edifying worde is false and maintaineth charming For do you thinke that the worde of institution being as you say the summ of Christes Sermon is then an edifying word whensoeuer it is recited by a profane person euen in the profanation of Gods ordinance Looke 2. tim 4.3 and you
shal appear that they saw many things but kept them not I pray you confer the places and it can neuer be prooued that any of them were so blinde as they could not declare by preachinge the generall vse of the sacrifices and ceremonies Their wants might be many but not like the insufficiency of our readers Beit they were as insufficient yet their ministery might be allowable For Vnfitnes to teach made not a nullitie of the Leuiticall priests office Because 1 it was sufficient to make him a lawfull though not a good priest Nom. 3.10 Leuit. 8. Exo. 29. for him to be of the line of Aron 2 there was no commandemēt concerning the tryall of his fitnes to teach 3 It is not mentioned that any were put from the pristhood for want of this ability wheras the dout whether they were the sonnes of Aaron Ezra 2.63 and their idolatry 2. Chron. bereaued them thereof Act. 21.26 4 the example of Paule confirmeth this who communicated since his conuersion with those prists that wer as vnlearned as euer anye whiche he woulde not haue done if inability to teach had made them no priests Nowe therefore M. Some to make your argument from the Leuiticall priesthood to bee forcible For your vnpreching ministers you must proue that either our readers ministery is a Leuiticall ministery that the continuance therof is vnder the new couenāt or shew that the corrupt aprobation for so I name the best outwarde calling they can haue of the Churche is as forcible to make thē ministers as was the ordinaunce of God to make the sons of Aaron sacrificing at Ierusalem to be priests Now That the corrupt allovvance of the Church cannot make our readers to be substanciall ministers For so all men and wemen without or within the Church might be capable of the ministery because all may be capable of this outward alowāce 2 and perticularly a man not furnished with naturall capacity 3 a man that could not read though he wanted also the gift of interpretation for suche a one might recite the liturgie without the booke 4 the Churche might make a man minister against his will though he should neuer consent thervnto And this is the willingnes that I meane when I say that the inward caling is contained in the sufficiency of gifts willingnes to practize which willingnes I gather vpon the wordes Epith mei and oregetai vsed of the A postle Your reason therfore from the malicious Philippian ministers toucheth not the question 1. Tim. 3.1 Thus Caiphas with his crue of vnworthye and monstrous priests who within a fewe pages in your booke haue impudently so often troubled the reader is answered And I thinke it a great iudgment of God that the ornaments of our English and welch ministery for the most part consisteth in the deformitie of suche lothsome spots M.D. Some page 32. They of whose magistracie there is a nullitye before God though they haue an outwarde calling ought not to bee accounted magystrates I.P. You demand what I thinke of this proposition Surely my iudgement is that it is altogether without sence and ouerthroweth it self For it is as if you said he of whose fayth there is a nullitye before God though he be assured of his saluation is not to be accounted a faythful mā Why to be assured of saluation to haue a nullitie of fayth before God cannot stand together No more can the outward calling of the magistracy stand with the nullity thereof For the outwarde calling maketh a substantiall magistrate There be three essentiall differences betvveene an euill magistrate and a reading minister 1 The outwarde calling of an euill magistrate maketh him a substantial magistrate so cannot the outward alowance of readers make them to be ministers 2 The magistracie of an euill magistrate may be allowable before God so cannot the ministery of readers 3 Men may bee assured to receiue that accordinge to the ordinaunce of God substantially at the handes of an euill magistrate which concerneth them to haue from him so can they not of a bare reader For there is no man that can assure himselfe to be pertaker of a substantiall sacrament at the hands of such and preache they cannot I haue handled this poynte of the magistracie in my former booke from page 47. to 51. But M. Some where is that reason which you could presse so far is this it they of whose magistracie there is a nullity before God ought not to be accounted magistrates I say your proposition is true assume what you wil you know what maner of nullity I meane My reason concluding the vnlawfulnes of communicatinge with readers hauing but an outward calling because it is a sinne to communicate with them whiche onely want the same hauing fitnes to teache is such as I can not but maruell that you would thinke it could bee answered by a desiring of the question which is a fault in reasoninge wherein be like you seeme to take delight you say againe that readers deliuer a sacrament How can we be sure thereof why may not I say as well that a man indued with giftes to teach doth deliuer a sacrament though he haue no outwarde calling whiche assertion would be false By an extraordinarye sacrament I meane baptisme or the Lords supper administred either priuatly by a minister or any way by on that is no minister I neuer affirmed the elements deliuered by readers to be sacraments It is one thing not to deny them another thing to affirme them to be sacraments the former I haue written the latter I neuer did they doe my writinges great iniurie that report the contrary Thus M. Some I haue run through the pointes in your booke that concerned me I haue beene driuen to deale briefly therein I had determined and I am inforced to ende and to omit that which page 9. line 11. I promised to handle in the latter end with diuers other I haue not the like libertie for printing that you M. Some doe inioy Let me but haue the fauor to bee iudicially heard according to the word and I will personally vpon the perill of my life defend these two points against all men I am sory that you whom I reuerence should be the instrument to oppugne a trueth The Lord respect the cause of his owne glorie and pardon our sinne Amen ERRATA Page 1. line 20. 23. for 2. read 3. pag 47. line 14. blot out family be excluded from the