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A40846 A Famous conference between Pope Clement the Xth and Cardinal de Monte Alto concerning the late discovery of the Masse in Holy Scripture made by the worthy Father Patrick, an excellent engineer of the Church of Rome in England Clement X, Pope, 1590-1676. 1674 (1674) Wing F368; ESTC R7044 15,089 35

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design'd to bring back to the profession of the truth the poor deluded Hereticks for my part I conceive that he did foresee the conversion of all those people that will now doubtless embrace my Faith and profession for they have often promised to come to Mass if we can but shew them the Mass in Holy Scripture Now they must of necessity acknowledg it to be there mauger all their obstinacy we may therefore hope to see whole troops of men return again to the bosom of my Holy Church If after so clear a convict on and this undeniable discovery there be any so obstinate as to shut their eyes and refuse to acknowledg the Mass I will thunder against him from my Vatican and send him to Hell before his time For my part I find quoth the Cardinal that he hath much oblieged the Civil Magistrates and Princes in giving this meaning to the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for we must now look upon them as persons who have liberty to say Mass for St. Paul names them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is according to this new signification Singers or bablers of Masses unto God Now I think of it all our Roman Religion is mightily obliged to him for he hath shewn us an expedient how to confirm all the Doctrines of our Holy Church without much difficulty in placing them in express words in Holy Scripture We may now seek the passages that have any colour of such Doctrines and Translate them according to this good model of Father Patrick for example Christ Mat. 16. 18. said to St. Peter in the Gospel Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church there we maintain that Christ hath granted and established the Popes Authority upon Peter and his Successors But because these words are not so plain and clear for our purpose as we could well wish why may not we make it plainer and Translate it in express words that may confute all the Hereticks in this manner Thou art Pope and upon this pope I will build my Church Your Fancy quoth the Pope is very good and makes much for our purpose Doubtless all Christendom admires the wit and piety of this Ingenious Father and desires that he may be well rewarded for his worth and cunning we shall have our Court thronged with the Embassadors of several Princes to sue for his promotion and reward for my part I am already very much enclined to grant to Father Patrick my most special Favours I do at present free him from the troublesom Visit of purgatory after his Decease and Decree that his Soul may leap directly into Heaven without stop or hindrance We have granted this priviledge to many that are not so deserving as this most Reverend Father and it is but reason that he should obtain this benefit from the Mass seeing that he hath been so great a Friend to her We commonly say Mass to free poor Souls from the flames of purgatory and to draw them into a more temperate and more pleasant abode why may not the Mass from which he hath deserv'd a good Reward hinder him from entring into this Incommodious burning I will also reward him in his life-time I will enoble his pate with a Cardinals Cap I conceive his head is bigg enough and of a sise able to bear this Covering with a bon meen When his Holiness had uttered these words he began to bethink himself and muse upon what he had said well quoth he rubbing and shaking his head there is something comes into my mind that damps all my affections for Father Patrick this subtle Wit that hath found the Mass in Holy Writ contrary to all appearance may also by chance find by his cunning and working fancy how to make Father Patrick a Pope and by this means pull me out of my seat and tumble me down of my Throne as an unlawfull Pope This apprehension sinks into my mind do what I can and spoils all the affection that I had conceived for this Father so that a small matter might cause me to undertake his Destruction As the Cardinal was opening his Lips to return an answer in steps a Gentleman of the popes Bed-chamber to acquaint his Holiness that there were without a croud of persons that did most passionately entreat for audience of his good Holiness When the pope had commanded them to come in e found them to Be some of his Well-wisher that came to advertise him of a great Tumult that had hapned in the Vatican Church between two comely Ladies the one named her self Vulgata Latim the other was named Madam Franca Versio of the City of Louvain two persons of very good account as they were at their Devotions they quarrell'd with that Fury that they were ready to tear one another to pieces Madam Vulgata required the precedency because she had been enobled by the Council of Trent and could shew a very authentick patent for her Nobility but Madam Franca Versio could produce no such Antiquity but pretended that she was to have the precedency of the former because she had been enobled dignified and blessed with a most Divine Berne a She-beauty esteemed and admired all over the World as a Goddess she being the only Mother that had bore in her Womb such a Celestial production as the Goddess Missa She resolved not to yeild an ace to her Sister Madam Vulgata Latina but to dispute the preeminency and the predency with her to the uttermost and the rather because she was backt and assisted by all her Countrymen who did not much favour Madam Latina because they understood not her speech As soon as these persons had represented the case to his Holiness the door being open in steps an old Roman Lady my Lady Tradition she was attired as the Gibeonites are represented in holy Scripture when they came to make peace with the Children of Israel at their entrance into the promised Land her Gown was old and moth-eaten her shoes patcht with many old pieces her face painted with many wrinkles her food was dry bread and mouldy bisket all her Garments did bespeak her to be but a durty nasty loathsom and old Joane nevertheless she received the Respects of all the company at her entrance because she did look with a grave countenance and affect such marks and liveries of Antiquity and Age although she was but young and of a late Birth she accessed his Holiness without any Ceremony because she was very well known to him and familiar with him she had tutered him and did yet furnish him with very good directions This Lady Tradition with a grim and sad countenance soon burst forth into bitter complaints against Father Patrick the French Abbot and the Irish Priest for having committed a most unjust robbery and rape and debaucht and carried away from her dwelling one of her best and most beautiful Guests my Lady Missa she represented to his Holiness that he had just cause
unto the Lord. I am very well pleased with his Ingenuity and no body must think this proceeding strange for if he hath the power to transform and cause a metamorphosis of solid substance and turn Bread and Wine into other things of so great a disparity as flesh bones and blood It is no wonder if Father Patrick this Ingenious Priest hath also transformed and changed one expression into another if he can by his breath alone make the glorious Body of Christ now ascended up into Heaven to be found in a few Crums of Bread and a few drops of Wine Why may not Patrick by the same art cause the Holy Mass to be found also in a passage of holy Scripture where it was never before If he can so far command him who is named the Word to come down from Heaven as often as he pleaseth he may with more ease obliege him to speak what and when he listeth In the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he hath met with a motive that hath Incited him to this perform this metamorphosis for he hath met with certain happy Spirits of the Primitive World who have Informed him that in the Council of Chalcedon this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was Interpreted by saying Mass therefore the Council furnishes him with an excellent proof upon which he depends much because in the Actr of this Council the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Translated by a Latine Author facere-missas perform Masses as Julian tells us who himself was of that Councill And because this word is so to be understood in the deeds of this Council therefore it hath the same signification by very good reason in the Acts of the Apostles Don't you think that this reasoning is right and good I admire quoth the Cardinal the subtilty of this Priest but I am afraid that some damned Heretick will draw from this kind of reasoning advantages against us and as such kind of people do already say that we affirm of our Mass that it is not what it appears to be that appears Bread but that it is nothing less then Bread so they will talk of this passage Translated by Father Patrick that it is not what it seems to be That in appearance the Mass is in the Translation but in the Original there is no shape of the Mass to be seen They will also say that the arguing from the Interpretation of the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 found in the Acts of the Counsel of Chalcedon is not just nor reasonable for a word may have a different signification in Ages so much at a distance from one another for that Counsel was held 400 years after the Apostles besides these Hereticks may say that the word Missa Mass that was then lately found out has since in this Age changed its signification for it is with the Mass as with men their Faces differ before they come to an age of understanding look upon a man in his Chilhood and consider him afterwards in his old Age and you shall searce know him so it is with this Name If you look upon it in its first rise and afterwards take notice of it in the glorious appearance that hath been given to it in these last Ages and you will scarce believe them to be the same you will find a strange alteration It may be said of the Mass as of Noahs Ark and Theseus Ship that it was the same and yet not the same for the letters syllables and pronunciation is the same but the use and signification is not the same then it did signifie the dismission of the people or the leave to depart out of the Congregation granted to the Catechumenes who were dismist after Sermon or to the Rest of the Faithful sent away after the Administration of the Sacraments at the end of Divine Service Then they did say Facere missum Catechumenis or Facere missum fidelibus that is to dismiss the Catechumenes or the Faithful this word did then signifie generally all the publick Service of God at the end of which this dismission was thus performed Missa est So that then they called the publick Prayers of the Church the reading and preaching of the Word of God and the administration of the Sacraments by the Name of Mass these things Bellarmin hath confest Since the word is strangely changed to signifie the holy Sacrament of the Altar which is now its ordinary meaning Some therefore may say that in the Translation of the Counsel of Chalcedon to express the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it was never employed in the meaning that Reveend Father Patrick employes it in the 3 chap. of the Acts but doubtless this excellent Abbot so well kill'd in Transmutation can solve all the difficulties that may be made against him and his Interpretation But what benefit doth your Holiness imagine that we receive from this bold attempt of Father Patrick I conceive that he may have well encreased the glory of the Mass by raising it upon such a noble Throne and placing it to be seen upon the Theatre of Holy Scriptures He doth also by this meanes discover its profound Antiquity for it seems to be far more ancient than Christ and his holy Apostles for he may easily prove by this Word that all the Priests under the Law did say Mass very reverendly as well as the Briests under Luke 1. 23. the Gospel for St. Luke tells us that Zachary had accomplisht 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we must for the time to come Translate The dayes of his saying Mass And St Paul represents Moses sprinking the blood upon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb 9. 21. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we must also render thus All the Vessels employed in saying Mass In the same place Heb. 10. 11 the Apostle tells us that every Priest did daily 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is according to this good Translation Say Mass and elsewhere he discovers how Christ doth continually say Mass in Heaven for in the same Ep. to the Heb. he tells us that we have an high Priest that is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty of God in Heaven 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that means saying Mass in the Holy places I conceive that the Holy Angels are Christs Deacons and Clarks in Heaven to answer him because in the same Epistle they are named 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we are to understand by these words Spirits that say Mass Your Holiness that hath communication with Heaven may know something more of these Heavenly matters Well replyed the Pope we have just cause to expect the speedy conversion of all the Hereticks and if Father Patrick hath boasted of having made many a good Proselyte and turned them from protestantisme to popery although it was then but a Lye he may have said so by the spitit of prophecy such kind of deceits and falsehoods are to be considered and excused as so many pious frauds