Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	according_a	sacrament_n	word_n	4,357	5	3.7810	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A78005	A vindication of Mr Burroughes, against Mr Edwards his foule aspersions, in his spreading Gangræna, and his angry Antiapologia. Concluding with a briefe declaration what the Independents would have. / By Jer: Burroughes.	Burroughs, Jeremiah, 1599-1646.	1646 (1646)	Wing B6126; Thomason E345_14; ESTC R200993	27,250	36

lyen in the dust and have trusted God with our names There is indeed a great complaint in the World that they know not what we would have Yet ingenuous Brethren in the Assembly have professed that they understood what we would have as well as our selves so cleare have we been in discovering our mindes upon all occasions We have lately in a Committee appoynted by the Lords and Commons for Accommodation declared what we would have in relation to what already is established professing that in all things that we had not mentioned in our desires for forbearance we agreed with the rule they had established If you would know what we would have it is soon told you 1. We would have the ruling Power of Ministers not to extend further then their pastorall Charge over their People for the feeding of them by the Word Sacraments 2. We would have the Saints separated from the world not in a negative way only but in some positive arguments of some work of God upon their hearts that accompanies Salvation so far as man may be able to judge and that they freely joyn in Spirituall Communion yet so as the rule of edification be observ'd amongst others that there be a cohabitation in those that joyn and that all that are fit to be members that doe cohabit doe joyn as much as may be 3. We would have no coactive violence used against such men who carry themselves religiously and peaceably in their differences from others in such things onely as godly and peaceable men may and doe differ in Were these 3. things granted we might live together as Bretheren in peace and love Are those the men that are the hinderers of reformation and the disturbers of the peace who would be satisfied with these 3. things and if they cannot have them peaceably by the permission of the Magistrate are resolved to sit down quietly to suffer or to go to what places in the world liberty may be enjoyed in these and yet must these be judged the disturbers of the peace But while men think there is no way for peace but by forcing all to be of the same minde while they thinke the Civill Sword is an ordinance appoynted by GOD to determine all Controversies in Divinity and that men must needs be chained together by fines and imprisonments or else there can be no peace that except all men be of the same minde themselves are of all will come to confusion whilst these Principles prevaile with men either there must be a base subjection of mens consciences to slavery a suppression of much truth whilst they seek to suppresse error or else exceeding disturbance in the Christian world Happy those men their memories shall be blessed Not who bluster and are violent and furious in forcing others to what they conceive right for these are certainly the disturbers of our peace but those who shall find out some expedient whereby Conscience may not be enslaved truth not suppressed and yet error not countenanced the spirits of men each towards other sweetned Peace procured Brotherly love recovered strengthned confirmed for the raising up of such for the blessing of God upon such and their endeavours I shall not cease to pray who am desirous of nothing more then Truth and Peace but the Lord rebuke turbulent and violent spirits But seeing you mention a Committee of Lords and Commons for Accommodation why did not you joyn in a way of Accommodation with your Brethren Nothing would satisfie you but a Toleration Answ Before there was any Rule established we laboured what we could for Accommodation to get the Rule so qualified that we might come under the same Rule with our Brethren professing that we desired nothing more but that we could not effect It was then pleaded Let the Rule be first set and then we shall see how neere we can come to it or where the difference will lye and then some way may be considered to Accommodate in But when the Rule was set we knew no way but to shew wherein we could not come up to the Rule and to desire forbearance in such and such particulars which the Order of the Lords and Commons gave us power to doe which we accordingly presented to the Honourable Committee professing our selves to agree with our Brethren in all Fundamentals in Doctrine and in the substance of Worship according to the Directory and with the Reformed Churches as they doe and for the Rule of Discipline that we likewise agreed in all other things except those we mentioned wherein we desired forbearance But you say you would not have the Ruling power of Ministers goe beyond their Pastoral Charge for Word and Sacramente what help then can there be if the Elders of a Church or a whole Church shall erre Ans The Church is a spirituall Society gathered for spirituall ends it hath within it selfe no help against spirituall evils but spirituall and these can onely prevaile with men so far as they are spiritual and conscientious If the declaring the mind of Christ by other Churches if the protesting against the erring Elders or Churches and withdrawing Communion from them will not strike upon Conscience what shall Can the adding of an Act of formall Jurisdiction whose Divine Institution few see and is doubted of by those with whom it should prevaile can that doe it The former meanes wil remedy evils if men be conscientious the latter will not doe it if they be not conscientious If you say The Magistrate must come in and helpe Answ 1. Howsoever then in Church help there is little difference 2. If you interesse the Magistrates power he must then either by himselfe or by some Commissioners take cognisance of the jus and the fact wherein his power is to be exercised he must not act upon an implicite beliefe that the acts of the Church are right 3. Will you call in his power in all matters of difference wherein your selves cannot agree or will you onely desire his power to help when either the hainousnesse of the matter or the turbulencie of the carriage manifests stubbornnesse If in the former case then you make the Magistrate the Judge of all Controversies in Religion which I beleeve you are not willing to doe If in the latter onely we are agreed Why then is there such a stir such an out-cry against that which is called the Independent way as if there must needs be a confusion of all things if liberty in it be granted The Lord judge between us and our Brethren in this thing To him we refer our Names and our Cause FINIS

where they live because of the Ceremonies and subjection to Bishops were they all Schismaticks too Doe not men ordinarily in London and elsewhere for the outward advantage of trade or otherwise leave one Church and goe to another and may not a man for any advantage of enjoyment of Ordinances that he cannot have in the Church he formerly lived in not in that purity but that it will be sinne in him to continue in it remove to another Church and what if his dwelling be not removed to the other side of the street does that make it Schisme Many of the converted Jewes were a great while in Church-Communion before they saw their liberty to converse with the Gentiles though converted also it was their fault that they would not joyne with the Gentiles being Christians the partition wall being broken downe yet they were never accounted Schismatiques for this fault of theirs whereas now if a man lives in a parish and does not joyn in Church fellowship in that parish he is branded for a Schismatique What hurt the abuse of words and among others this of Schisme hath done in the Church we all know When men who give good testimony of their godlinesse and peaceablenesse after all meanes used in faithfulnesse to know the mind of Christ they cannot without sin to them though it be through weaknesse enjoy all the ordinances of Christ and partake in all the duties of Worship as members of that Congregation where their dwelling is they therefore in all humility and meeknesse desire they may not live without the ordinances of Christ all their dayes but for the enjoyment of them may joyne in another Congregation yet so as not condemning those Churches they joyne not with as false but still preserve all Christian communion with the Saints as members of the same body of Christ of the Church Catholique and joyn also with them in all duties of worship that belong to particular Churches so far as they are able If this be called Schisme it is more then yet I have learned or then I beleeve M. Edwards can teach me Page 98. he throwes me his glove challenging me into the field to try his valour with me in this point Ans When I have a mind to play at Brawle and Wrangle I will take up his glove He hath given an experiment of his wrangling faculty in the maintenance of the charge he gives me of being guilty of the 150. Error mentioned in the first part of his Gangraena namely Whatsoever errors or miscarriages in Religion the Church should beare withall in men continuing them still in communion with them these the Magistrate should beare with continuing them in the Kingdome or Common-wealth in the enjoyment of the liberty of subjects this with M. Edwards is a huge error Whereas he passes almost all his other errors without any animadversion he must needs have one here he cannot passe so foule an error as this without confuting it presently see what his Confutation is Those sayes he who out of conscience are not satisfyed in taking up Armes against Armies raised by a Prince the Church will not deale with for this but the Magistrate may To this M. John Goodwin answered that I before had said that in matters of civil justice between man and man there the plea of conscience would not free a man from punish-went if he offends but for matters of Religion there what ever charge the Magistrate hath over men it is not more then the charge the Church hath in its kind therefore where the Church should beare with men the Magistrate should Now the man comes in with his refutation and instances in a businesse of taking up Armes as if this did not come under the Head spoken of before namely the matters of civil justice not a matter of Religion as distinct from civil justice and his Reply is onely this as if an erroneous conscience did not make things the Magistrate accounts matters of State matters of Religion and the Magistrate also reckon many things to be matters of State which many consciences account high matters in Religion Ans What a bable is this who would spend his time in replying to it If M. Edwards his valour in dispute may be judged by this we need never feare encountring with him I say that in matters of Religion as distinct from matters of civil justice there the Magistrates power extends not beyond the Churches and he comes and tells us that an erroneous conscience may account matters of State matters of Religion what then if he accounts them to be matters of Religion does this alter the nature of the thing what ever he accounts yet if he does offend against civill justice he is to be punished and whatsoever the Magistrate accounts yet if the thing in its owne nature be not against civill justice but onely against some rule of Religion surely he is not to punish in his way further then the Church may in her way who speaks of what one man accounts or what another man accounts the things must be judged according to what they are in their owne nature if M. Edwards his threatning Peece doe no better feats then his Animadversion and Reply to M. John Goodwin hath done that which he judges an Error remaines still a Truth he must blot it out of his Catalogue of Errors his conscience must tell him there is one Error lesse then his reckoning but I would be loth to be writing or waiting till Master Edwards his conscience be convinced or if it be till he confesses it to be There is onely one passage more that I shall need to take notice of in his last Book and something he hath of it in his former namely my conformity in the Bishops times This conformity he speaks of was ten yeeres since and though I did conforme to some of the old Ceremonies in which I acknowledge my sinne I doe not cast those things off as inconvenient or discountenanced by the State onely but as sinfull against Christ yet I think there can hardly be found any Man in that Diocesse where I was who was so eyed as I was that did conforme lesse then I did if he conformed at all As for the new conformity God kept me from it and my sinne in the old makes me to be of the more forbearing spirit towards those who now differ from me I see now what I did not and I blesse God I saw it before the times changed and others even some who scorne at new light must acknowledge they see now what a while since they saw not why then should they or I fly upon our Brethren because they see not what we think we see Oh how unbeseeming is it for such who conformed to old and new Ceremonies now to be harsh and bitter in the least degree against their Brethren who differ from them when they doe differ so much from what they were themselves but a while since I some of them