the preceptive or penal part though it justifies me before the Law R. B. What if the Creed or Lords Prayer were too rigorously imposed J. O. If the thing be my duty in obedience to a just and Supream Law I am not to neglect it because an Inferiour Governour too rigorously imposeth it 1. Such a rigorous imposition hurts me not in that which I take to be duty to do whether that Imposition be or no. 2. Christ never annexeth too severe Penalties to any of his Laws 3. If man undertake to annex too rigorous Punishments or unsuitable ones it hinders not me in my Duty to Christ As if a Magistrate make Whipping or Hanging the Penalty of not receiving the Sacrament in such a time If I upon Examination of my self and the Rule apprehend it my duty in Obedience to Christ I will do it but not in respect to Mans Laws But if the Subordinate Law-maker alter the Nature and Circumstances of the Supream the Law is another thing and my Obedience justifies the power of the Law-maker and the goodness of the Law in the Mandatory part Again good things by a lawful Authority may be too rigorously imposed and the Law may be unjust in the Penalty though the Mandatory part be good which injustice is the sin of the Law-givers loss and wrong of the Transgressor because he suffers beyond the Merit of his Transgression but this hinders not me from my Duty neither doth this rigorous Imposition hurt me so long as I stand in obligation and practice of my duty by another Righteous Law which requires the same thing If Christ commands me to say the Lords Prayer and annexeth no corporal punishment I will do it If Mans Law saith I shall be hang'd if I do not do it I do the Action by vertue of Christ's Law But let such Law makers look to it that annex Corporal Penalties to Laws of his Institution the Cries of them upon which they are Executed will be loud in Christs Ear. Manuscript This Corjunction by C mmunion by the Worship of the Liturgy is a Symbol Pledge and Token of â—n Ecclesâ—astical Incorporation with the Church of England in its present Constitution it is so in the Law of the Land it is so in the Canons of the Church it is so in the common understanding of all men and by these Rules must our Vnderstanding and Practice be judged and not be any Reserves of our own which neither God nor good men will allow of Wherefâ—re R. B. To the third Premise I answer The Church of England is an Ambiguous word 1. As it signifies a part of the Universal Church agreeing in Faith one God and all Essentials J. O. So any Church may be as well as it any particular Congregation this is no distinguishing Character but is ambiguous too R. B. 2. As it is a Christian Kingdom under one King J. O. A Church in a sence is a Christian Kingdom i. e. a Royal Nation under Christ their King But there 's no such Gospel Church in your sence for there was neither Christian Kingdom nor King in the Apostles days R. B. As it is a Confedracy of many Churches to keep concord in lawful Circumstantials as well as Integrals J. O. This will not tell us yet what the Church of England is 1. A confederacy of Churches is by No-body call'd a Church in your sence of a Church the Scripture no where calls a confedracy of Churches a Church nor doth any that call the Church of England â— Church owning it so to be in its professed Constitution mean thereby a confederation of Churches 2. National Churches may be a confederation of Churches and such confederation in lawful circumstantials as well as integrals will make a Church I know not why we may not have a Catholick Visible Church Organized if this be a due acceptation of a Church R. B. If any Church go beyond these bounds and upon good pretences shall agree upon any Error or Evil it is a mistake to hold that all that incorporate with them in the three aforesaid lawful respects do therefore confederate with them in their Error This is your Fourth Error J. O. That 's â—our Error 1. In Arithmetick it s but the third by your own mark 2. In Logick for what â—ounds have you set These three things are but general Descriptions of a Church at most Here 's no definition in any or all of them of any particular Church and that is setting of â—ounds when I difference and describe a Species or Individual under its next Genus by its particular form or proper adjunct we spâ—ak of a particular Church so bounded The Church of England is so according to its present constitution by Establishing Laws in its actual form of Officers Members particular Worship and power as an Organized individual Church National Church is not the next Genus of the Church of England but remote National Church is the next Genus Now I say upon whatever pretences a particular Church calls and professeth it self a Church as the conditions of their Communion if you joyn with them upon those conditions pretended and professed that is a Token of your Ecclesiastical Incorporation in the said Church in its present constitution the Church and all others looks upon you as an Actual Member let the conditions be Error or no Error The Question is not so much now whether the terms be Error or not but whether your joyning upon the terms required is not your Ecclesiastical Incorporation with them And then if the terms be erroneous and sinful whether you do not joyn in the Error and professedly allow it by your practice R. B. I will give you a general instance and a particular one 1. You cann't name me one combined company of Churches from the Apostles dayes till now that had no Error J. O. You might as well have said any one Church for we speak of a particular Church not of combined Churches but suppose as you say If that Combination be an Error or an Error be the condition of the Combination then my coming upon that condition is an Error and an Incorporation into that combination so as to make me Confederate in that Error R. B. The Independents gathered a Synâ—d at the Savoy and there among their Doctrinals or Articles of Faith laid down two points Expresly contrary to Scripture 1. That it is not Faith but Christs Righteousness that we are justified by whereas it is both and the Scripture often saith the contrary J. O. It is a strange thing that any man should take upon him such Magisterial Dictatorship in matters of Religion to insinuate Error into Mens Minds and unjust accusations of others For 1. When the Scripture speaks of Justification by Faith doth any sound Divines or Christians understand it of the Act of believing but that the object of Faith that Justifies is the Righteousness of Faith our own Righteousness or Christs Righteousness but this dispute is not
A Theological Dialogue Containing the DEFENCE and JUSTIFICATION OF Dr. John Owen FROM THE FORTY TWO ERRORS Charged upon him by Mr. Richard Baxter In a certain MANUSCRIPT ABOUT Communion in Lyturgical Worship Hebr. 11.5 By Faith Abel obtained a witness that he was righteous God testifying of his gifts and by it being dead yet speaketh 1 Cor. 4.3 4. With me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you or of mans judgment He that judgeth me is the Lord. LONDON Printed for the Author 1684. A THEOLOGICAL DIALOGUE CONTAINING Dr. Iohn Owen's DEFENCE AND JUSTIFICATION AGAINST Mr. Richard Baxter's CHARGE c. J. O. SIR you say That there is a certain Manuscript come to your hand which is famed to be Dr Owen's but received by you from a private hand which you publish taking it for granted so to be add his Name to it and expose it to Publick View and charge the said Dr. Owen with forty two Errors therein contained It is not yet proved by you to be his and therefore whether its reasonable for you to charge him with forty two Errors if you had found them in the said Manuscript let the World judge But whether the charge of such Errors on the said Manuscript be just give us leave to Examine by our Ensuing Conference And seeing by a continued Prosopopeia you direct your Discourse Charges Reproofs and Admonitions to me as if I were personally present or at least living in the Body who you know departed this Life some months since Take it not amiss if I treat you in the like nature and think it as feasible for a dead man to speak in the Ears of the Living as for the Living to speak in the Ears of the Dead I suppose if that Manuscript were mine some or other of the Congregation to which I was Pastor might come to me with this Case of Conscience Sir Is it lawful for us who are Members of a Congregation of Faithful People according to Article 19. of the Church of England for to joyn now as things are in their present Circumstances in the Publick Worship by the Liturgy And that it was Answered Manuscript It is not lawful for us to go to and joyn in Publick Worship by the Common Prayer because that Worship in it self according to the Rule of the Gospel is unlawful Now I pray Sir what Resolution would you give of this Case R. B. I say It is not only lawful but a Duty for those that cannot have better Publick Church-Worship without more hurt than benefit and are near a competent Parish Minister to go to and joyn in Publick Worship performed according to the Liturgy and in Sacramental Communion and for those that can have better to joyn sometimes with such parish-Parish-Churches when their forbearance scandalously seemeth to signifie that they take such Communion for unlawful and so would tempt others to the same Accusation and Uncharitable Separation J. O. Sir Your Resolution seems to me very long and upon so many Suppositions that its very ambiguous and doth very scarcely if at all reach the Enquiry here made For 1. We ask for our selves who are Actual Members of a Voluntary Church whether we may joyn in such Communion spoken of when we are as we apprehend of a Society and have a Publick Worship more agreeable to the mind of Christ and our own Edification and do you judge whether that be better or no for us 2. What you mean by a competent Ministry we know not one man judges a man a Competent yea able and profitable Minister which another doth not who must be a binding Judge to me in this case Must I walk by my own Judgment for Edification or by another Mans 3. Doth nearness to a Competent Minister make it my duty to joyn in all the Publick Worship of that Church of which he is Minister You say If I cann't have better But if I have and can by going further what then And for those that can have better to joyn sometimes in such Parish-Churches but then not alwayes and to leave their aforesaid Communion as unlawful whereas our said Parish-Churches require us so to do prosecuting us by Laws wherever they find us assembled You say it must be when our forbearance scandalously seemeth to signifie that we take such Communion for unlawful Who shall be judge of this Doth my Actual Non-communion with any Church scandalously reflect upon its Constitution if I walk in Communion with a Church which I judge to be a Church of Christ Must I go by the conduct of every peevish man or Church that will say so If a Church of Baptists in the same Parish with me will say so must I therefore joyn with them upon their unalterable terms which I am not satisfyed in Again what if I do take such Communion for unlawful upon grounds satisfactory to my self am I bound to-slight those grounds because somebody saith my forbearance hath a Scandalous Signification Likewise if my Separation be in duty to wards God and my own Soul it 's not uncharitable to any Man neither do I tempt any man by walking therein to uncharitableness or any Accusation thereof Manuscript Something must be premised to the Confirmation of this Position J. O. These are the things that we premise and therefore should be agreed upon on both sides pro concessis before we go to prove the Position laid down by the following Twelve Arguments Manusc 1. The whole System of Liturgical Worship with all its inseparable Dependencies are intended for as such it is Established by Law and not in any part of it only as such it is required that we receive it and attend unto it It is not in our power it is not left to our judgment or liberty to close with or make use of any part of it as we shall think fit There are in the Mass-Book many Prayers directed to God only by Jesus Christ yet it is not lawful for us thereon to go to Mass under a pretence only of joyning in such lawful Prayers As we must not offer their Drink-Offerings of Blood so we must not take up their Names in our Lips Psal 16 4. have no Communion with them R. B. To the first I answer 1. If he will include all that is in the Liturgy the Nonconformists confess that there is something in it which they differ from as unjustifiable and so there is in all mens Worship of God J. O. We say The whole System our meaning is plain the totum as it stands constituted in all its integral parts When I speak of John or Thomas c. I speak not of a Finger or a Leg if I do I say the Finger or Leg of such an one So we speak not of those things that you will call faulty and unjustifyable as it may be a Surplice or Cross c. but of the whole Liturgy-Worship as Establish'd R. B. He intimateth that it is not in cur power to
Homo and therefore receives that true denomination is Incorporated into the Genus Animal Or take the Church as an Integrum that which is incorporated into an integâ—al part is incorporated into the Integrum communion with the Integrum is per partes and such incorporation into any of the Parts is an evidencing Pledge which is a Symbol of Communion with the whole as by a Turf you take possession of an Estate in Land and by the delivery of a Key and entring the House you take possession i. e. These are Symbols or Pledges of your being instated in the whole R. B. For first the Rulers openly declare that they take multitudes to be none of their Church who joyn in the Liturgy J. O. That 's false Where do any Rulers by any Law declare so And if any say so it 's only concerning such as yield not to their required terms of Communion in joyning with the Worship of the Liturgy as the Establishing Law requires and will you joyn Communion with a Church whose Officers plainly declare that you are none of their Church whilst you Communicate Surely you either strangely impose upon them to communicate being a declared Non-Member or they are pitiful Church-Rulers that look no stricter to their Communicants but whose will may break in upon them So that here 's a Church in Communion with those that are declaredly none of its Communion and Members and Non-Members in Communion and Non-Communion with a Church and no Church This is a very pretty Riddle R. B. And it is Subscribing Declaring and Swearing Obedience which is the Symbol J. O. Of what Of Lay-Communion You should speak out your Sentences and not squeez off a piece Are any of those required of Lay-Communicants Nay are they not of another Nature qualifications of actual Communicants for Office-Power I wonder that grave men and Divines will dare to Equivocate so Is not Baptism according to the Liturgy a Symbol of Incorporation into the Church of England Confirmation another Receiving the Lords Supper another Symbol ordinary Attendence on the Service c. R. B. Yea they Excommunicate many that come to the Liturgy-Service J. O. For what For Bastardy Whoring Swearing Drunkenness these should for all their coming to the Liturgy be Excommunicated But why do they Excommunicate them Is it not because they look upon them as incorporated Members before Excommunication It were Nonsence for a Church to Excommunicate a declared non-Non-Member And are not Excommunicate Persons kept from coming to the Communion by the Liturgy So that it 's apparent Communion in the Liturgy is the Symbol yea door of in-let to and out-let from incorporation with the Church R. B. And many come to it who openly disown the Diocesan present Constitution so did the old Nonconformists and many Forreigners French and Dutch J. O. Your Self for Example the chief Head of that Trimming Sect whose practice condemns their declared Opinion and that your Rulers know or else would not connive at such a scandalous sort of communicants that deny the professed standing and form of a Diocesan Church whilst they have communion wiâ—h it and say they communicate with it quâ—tenus a Presbyteriâ—n Association of Churches Those old Nonconformists that did so are no Presidents to us If they halâ—ed and were lame must we be so Such Communicants are not acceptable to any Church and I know what Church would never admit them were it not to punish and expose them and their Profession as ridiculous and inconsistent with it self And as for French and Dutch what are they to us or any other any more than they follow Christ And if the Church do not do their duty towards disorderly communicants let them look to it it 's none of our fault R. B. If one may joyn in Communion of Worship with a Presbyterian Independant or Anabaptist Church without owning the Errors of their Constitution then so we may with a Parish Church But c. J. O. And a Diocesan too you should say for in joyning with one you joyn with the other as such And I will tell you if they make their Errors the condition of your communion you cannot joyn in communion c. without owning their Errors Suppose a Presbyterian Church makes worshiping according o the Directory the condition of their Communion and I look upon this as their Error or that it is a false Rule of Worship do not I in joyning in Communion by the Directory own their Error So Baptists making Re-baptizing the condition of communion with them and I look upon it as a sin do not I own their Error by joyning wiâ—h them on this condition and so grosly condemn my self and commit a known sin yea 't is no better than a presumptuous Sin R. B. You mi take when you say it is by the Law of the Land J. O. I admirâ— you can say it when I know you cann't but be better acquâ—inted with the Laws then so You should have instanced in some part or clause that had excepted some Communicants from being reckoned of that Church They would thank you for it that they might not be liable to Excommunication All that are liable to a Church-Excommunication when they have offended are declared Members of the Church But all Communicants â—nd Native Inhabitants are so therefore the Law hath excepted none R. B. You mistake again when you say it is so by the Canons J. O. Is it possible you can charge such things for mistakes doth not the 22â—h Canon require every Parishioner that is a Lay Person to communicate thrice every year Is not that for a Symbol of their Incorporation with the Church of England which is affirmed to be a true Apostolick Church Can. 3. Can. 14 89. and how comes it to pass that the Churcâ— hath power of Excommunicating any person but by vertue of Incorporation which she hath by the same Law He that is not in the Church how comes he to be cast out And how was it that he is esteemed one Is it not by vertue of the Church Canon or Rubrick Is he not by communion in the Sacrament of Baptism made a Member Is not that communion of the Liturgy So for Confirmation or other Liturgical Worship that are made necessâ—ry conditions of communion are they not Symbols of their Ecclesiastical Incorpor tion the neglect whereof is punished with Excommunication And likewise those that do not submit to the things therein commanded not to be admitted to the Communion of the Sacramâ—nts and therefore to be reckoned as no Members Can 27. Scâ—ismâ—ticks not to be admitted to the Communion No Mininister when he celebrateth the Communion shall wittingly administer to â—y â—â—t to such as kneel under pâ—in of Suspension nor under the liâ—e pâ—in to 〈◊〉 that refuse to be present at Publick Prayer accordinâ— to the Oâ—ders of the Church of England R. B. I formerly instanced in one of the sharpest Nonconformists oâ—â— Mr. Humpney Feu of Coventry who would say aloud
close with some and not with all This is his First Error J. O. It seems its but an intimated Error then we say it s not left to our Judgment or Liberty viz. by them that challenge a Power over our Judgment and Liberty to close with or make use of any part of it i. e. in our External Communion the Law allows it not to read or hear it by bits or snaps or leave out what we please the Administrators will not leave it to us to do so neither can it be done without manifest offence to such Worshippers R. B. Though man gives us no such power God doth I am not bound to believe or own all that any Preacher shall say in the Church J. O. We speak not only of what power God gives us the sence is plain But God hath not left it in our power to communicate with any Society when they make that the condition of my Communion which I am convinced of to be sin to me or that I question whether it be lawful or no And though by joyning in any Worship you are not guilty of the Errors of the Administrators yet you own the Constitution of the Worship and the Rule by which it is performed supposing all Rules of Worship be Christ's Laws and Rules and therefore perfect and unerring To worship according to the Liturgy is to worship according to a Rule and this must be Gods Rule or Mans If Gods there 's no body will dissent from any thing in it as unjustifiable If mans the whole is not justifiable for let any sort of men show by what Authority they give a Rule for the Worship of God R. B. Though the Mass have many good Prayers the Corruption by twisted Idolatry and Heresie maketh Communion there unlawful J. O. That Twist is made in the whole System by the Law Establishing it where it is made their pretended Churches Worship therefore being unseparable you cann't make use of those alone which are directed to God by Jesus Christ alone but you must joyn in the Idolatry if you come to the Worship as Establish'd Again when you joyn with a System of Worship as by Law Established you joyn wlth the whole as if you touch a mans finger you touch the man we have Communion with an Integrum pâ—r partes and with a Genus by a Species and with both by Individuals Nay as every part of the Scripture one Verse or Sentence if it makes up sence so every part of the Liturgy as in form and manner therein contained is Liturgy and Worship thereafter is according to the Liturgy though it be but part of the Worship R. B. Prove any such Idolatry or Heresie in the Church Worship by the Liturgy and we will avoid it J. O. The Question is not de Quanto but de Quali if we prove Sin twisted in the Constitution and System so that if we have communion with one we must partake in the other it 's enough we are not to partake in fore-known Sins that we are convinced of nor should we commit any Sin willingly that good may come of it If a Worship be not really a Sinful Worship yet if we believe it so or question whether it be lawful or no we may not have Communion with it R. B. Heathens and Turks have good Prayers J. O. That Divinity wants several grains of Salt and when you have done all it will stink R B. Psal 16 4. Is too sadly abused which speaks only of Sacrificing to and Worshipping False Gods J. O. Though it specifie but one sort of False VVorship yet if it speak of it as such then it 's applicable justly to another and if that be False Worship we are speaking of it 's applicable to it and the place is not abused R. B. God put it into the Disciples power to beware of the Leven of the Pharisees and hear them J. O. God commanded them to bewaâ—â— of the Leven of them i. e. their false Doctrines and Traditions c. he never bid his Disciples to have Communion in one or the other though he told them Moses Chair was yet standing he had no other Church or Ordinances yet on Earth and the Constitution was Originally his own though now much corrupted by Corrupt Officers and humane Inventions VVell saith he attend the Ordinances and Offices of this Church yet but take heed of their Leven and Corruption he doth not bid them taste of the Leven to prove whether it be so when they know it and he told them what it was Nay you will say a corrupt Church-Communion is to be parted with for a better our case is such but in Christ's case and his Disciples it was not so If they had not Communion with that Church they could not with any on Earth then Besides it was his Church and he purchased it with his Blood and he had choice Members in it but he alwayes witnessed against the corruptions of it and had no Communion with them Lastly he was Lord of the Vinyard and his Precept is a Law let the like be shewed for your practice That Case and ours differs toto Caelo R. B. Prove all things is not approving all things J. O. The place is 1 Thes 5.21 Prove all things hold fast that which is good that 's necessarily accompanied with avoiding that which is evil I must prove no longer than till I find it to be good or evil and if the All things be matters of Practice I am not to prove them by doing them before I know them to be in genere morali bona or mala or licita at least for I may not do a doubtful action meerly to try whether it be good or no this were to tempt God and wound my Conscience but a doubtful action whilst such must be suspended Prove all things is especially to be understood of Doctrines that are pretended to be good and I know no other but they are so till I hear them and when I hear them and find them not so I reject them as evil and have no more to do with them to countenance them if this proving be applied to positive Actions it must be by Pre-Examination of the nature of the thing and circumstances before hand till I understand it as before-said Manuscript It is to be considered as armed with Laws 1. Such as declare and enjoyn it as the only True Worship of the Church 2. Such as prohibit condemn and punish all other wayes of the Worship of God in Church-Assemblies by our Communion and Conjunction with it we justifie those Laws R. B. That our Communion justifieth all the Laws that impose the Liturgy yea the Penal Severities is to gross an Error to be written with any shew of proof Error 2d J. O. Active Obedience to any Law justifieth the Mandatory part of the Law as good either absolutely or circumstantially and comparatively pro hic nunc but. passive Obedience doth not justifie necessarily either
1. As to the bare name either you will call all Acts done to signifie immediately the Souls honouring of God by the Name of Worship or will not if not then that which is no Worship is no false Worship if you will then your Proposition is false J. O. You love to play in the dark and impose upon us your Suppositions when you have ours expresly before you We take Religious Worship as the Genus and it s distributed into true and false all false Worship strictly taken is no Worship and the Spirit of God sometimes speaks of it so We know an Idol is nothing in the World But in the usual acceptation of the Scripture because men intend it for a Worship and commonly call it so it 's named a Worship but a false Worship Again we distribute True Religious Worship into Natural and Instituted these may be either of them True also or false The Argument is to prove a certain kind of Religious Worship which the Church is appointed to use to be false and it runs thus the Medium is Divinely All Religious appointed or instituted Worship not Divinely instituted is false Worship not accepted of God Now you say either we mean by Religious Worship all Acts done to signifie immediately the Souls honouring God or we do not We deny your disjunction nam partes disjunctae non sunt oppositae sine velo medio for we do not mean all but we mean some we speak but of some Acts Generalis Axiomatis contradictio non semper dividit verum á falso but there must be Specialis contradictio generalis Axiomatis to make a true division Ergo we say we are not necessitated as you would have it to mean all or none As if when we were speaking of rich or wise men you will say either you mean all men are wise or no men are wise if you mean all men that 's false if you mean no men no men are not unwise men This is such a rude piece of Sophistry that is very unbecoming a Doctor of the Chair There are Acts signifying our immediate honouring of God in the Soul which are not here intended We tell you Prayers and Praises are Natural Worship considered meerly as such likewise there are indifferent occasional Acts attending Natural Worship as suppose lifting up the hands or eyes to God in Prayer or in an usual Ejaculation or holy Meditation You know we mean by Worship a prescribed instituted Worship limited by a particular Rule and Form to walk by The Jewish Worship was instituted and so the Gospel Worship of the New Testament R. B. I take it for granted that by Gods instituting you mean not a general Command to man to institute it such as Let all things be done to Edification if you did your Minor is not true J. O. God never gave any general Command to man to institute i. e. to prescribe his Worship by a Law Gods giving us a Rule to walk by in indifferent and occasional circumstances of his Worship is no Command to us to make Institutions Institutions are not to be alter'd at our discretion and general Rules that limit our discretionary Actings are so far Gods Institutions but those acts of ours guided pro hic nunc lawfully by general Rules any of them are not by us to be brought into a binding Law ad omne semper neither for our selves nor others for that would be a humane Institution in Gods Worship therefore your distinction of Instituted Divine Worship into Primary and Secondary cann't be admitted for there is no Worship of Gods institution Secondary your Secondary Limitations of the circumstances and use of natural Worship not Instituted by God is mans Will-worship only and therefore false Worship R. B. Your wrong Exposition of all the Texts here cited is more then one mistake Mark Error XIV Deut. 42. 12.32 Prov. 30.6 Forbids adding to Gods Worship which is broken by all that either say That that is in Gods Worship which is not there as you do here J. O. Do we not say that they that verbally or practically say that that is in Gods Instituted Worship or belongs to it which he never commanded adds to it R. B. Or devise any Worship-Ordinances Co-ordinate or of the same sort with his own as if they were imperfect J. O. We say so far the same that they that devise an Institution co-ordinate with Gods set up Posts by his Posts make them of equal Authority yea greater then Gods by exacting the observance of them by Severer Penalties then they do Christs Institutions yea thrust out Christs and bring theirs instead You say they must be of the same sort that 's impossible a Humane and Divine Institution differs toto genere therefore that 's to suppose that which never was and all such adding aforesaid is as if God were imperfect R. B. But there is not a word forbidding Subordinate Secondary Acts of Worship such as kneeling putting off the Hat using written Notes in Preaching Forms of Singing Praying Catechising c. J. O. You might bring in what coloured cloaths the Minister should wear what kind of Caps Hats Perriwigs Pulpit the Print of the Bible the size of it the tune the Psalmes should be sung in the Pues the fashion of the Church the posture of the Communion-Table the clothes the Cups for Sacrament Wine c. such things are no parts of Gods Worship at all but natural Attendants or Conveniences to Worship in general that God under the Gospel hath placed none of his Worship in he hath by no limiting Institution given any sanction to them they are discretionarily to be used or omitted or altered at pleasure of the present Worshippers according to the general Rules of doing all things to Gods glory and our own Edification and it s the Churches Priviledge that they have by Gospel Charter that no humane secondary Law can rob them of And if there be such made they are not Gods its adding Laws to Gods Laws of Worship to make them and therefore here forbidnen See now what some of your Secondary Worship would come to if it may bind one way it may another and if it may be according to one Rulers humour it may be according to anothers and if in one kind of such circumstances then in another then all the old Popish Crossing Cringing Robes Vestments Altars Salt Spittle Holy Water c. may come in Likewise in the Particulars instanced in by you it may be prescribed by Law how long the Sermon shall be how long the Prayer what matter and words in both to be used at such a time whether the Minister shall preach with Notes or without that the People should always kneel at prayer or always stand or times of kneeling and standing So in reading and hearing the Word what tune should be sung to every Psalm and what Psalm at each time and what times what Metre what Catechise to be used and when to
in all their Solemn Worship R. B. This Answer is not only a mistake but of an ill aspect on your self It 's not true That the use of Gifts is excluded in all the Solemn Worship of the Church As if Prayer Praise Thanksgiving Confession Explication of the Scripture Reproof Benediction c. Error 37. J. O. I admire at your boldness in these things what Gifts of the Spirit are used for Edification of the the Church in all the Service of the Church Is it Reading and an Audible Voice There can be no other Are these all that Christ gave to men for Edification when he ascended on high R. B. Indeed some Super-Conformists have said so but I hoped you would not J. O. Whatever Super Conformists and Half-Conformists say the truth is truth Do you think the meaning of the Apostle is when he saith Christ gave Gifts to men that he gave Liturgies to them with prescribed forms of Prayer Praises Confessions Benedictions c. If that be the meaning produce Christs Liturgy that he dropt down from heaven with these gifts in it and we shall with all Alacrity yield to that way of worship but see you bring good evidence for it R. B. 2. It hath an ill aspect if that Preaching and Pulpit Praying be none of the Solemn Worship of the Churches then all Churches that have not Liturgies have no Solemn Worship at all J. O. Non sequitur we say Pulpit-Praying is not any of the Service-Book Church Solemn Worship they are in that respect called the Prayers of the Church and if the Liturgy makes them none of its Solemn Worship doth it follow that they are not so or that other Churches doth not make them so R. B. If it be otherwise Parish-Churches excel you c. J. O. We envy them not we desire to excel in following Christ and walking according to his Rule we compare our selves no otherwise Manuscript Arg. 6. That which hath been and is obstructive of the Edification of the Church if it be in Religious Worship it is a false Worship for the end of all true Worship is Edification But such hath been and is the Liturgical Worship R. B. This is but the former repeated J. O. It is false it hath another Medium The Medium of the fifth Argument was A means humanely invented to exclude Christs means for the attaining his end viz. Edification This Medium is The bringing that which is obstructive i. e. apparently opposite and contrary to all pretences of Edification But the Major you grant R. B. To your Minor 1. Such is all your Errors all the disorder ill reflexions slovenly expressions which any weak Minister useth and the faults that all men have in some degree J. O. And that few go beyond you in instead of Reflexions you use Fractions by your Magisterial Club and of slovenly reviling Expressions if they be not slovenly they are as dirty as I have met with from a Minister of your Reputation but for your way of arguing the most illogical fallacious and full of pedantick Carping that ever was And all men that oppose you in your confidently asserted Errors must be stigmatiz'd with all reproachful names imginable If they be not for Justification by works then they are Antinomians if they be not for your Pye-bald Conformity then they are on one side Super Conformists and on the other Dividing Separatists and must have a sentence passed upon their Persons and Learning as Unstudied Divines Factious Schismatical Erroneous and this is all to promote love and Catholick Communion in the World Must you be the Infallible Dictator in all matters of Religion Is there no men living that have Reason Logick Theology but your self Are all the Divines and Schollars in England a company of pitiful Mushrooms to be treated so rudely by you if they dance not after your Pipe Yea it 's a sufficient Refutation of any Book if Mr. Baxter tells the world it 's a dangerous and Erroneous Book and why because it refutes his Errors And whereas you say You have answered Mr. Ralphson and slight Mr. Warner Dr. Sherlock c. Conformists and Nonconformists it 's neither your Principles nor way of Argument will refute either of them for it must be the Word of God and sound Arguments from it must take place with men of Conscience and Reason in these mattters not little shifting trifling Sophisms calling men Names condemning them for Unlearned and Unstudied Divines confounding clear words and truths with an hundred particulars divisions distinctions nothings till they are come to nothing calling Truth Error and Error Truth this is not the way to Peace nor Truth You are never like to die under the reputation of the Repairer of our breaches and the Restorer of our paths to dwell in unless you take another course for it then yet you have done Manuscript It puts an utter stop to the progress of Reformation in this Nation fixing bounds unto it that it could never pass 2. It hath kept Multitudes in ignorance c. 3. It hath countenanced and encouraged many in reviling and reproaching the holy Spirit and his work 4. It hath set up and warranted an Vngifted Ministry 5. It hath made great desolations in the Church first In the silencing of painful Ministers Secondly In the ruine of Families innumerable Thirdly In the destruction of Souls It is not lawful to be participant in these things yea the glory of our Profession lies in our Testimony against them J. O. Well what say you to these things Are they Truth or no R. B. I charge no Error here J. O. Truly the Church is much beholden to such a Champion R. B. But I have something to say to your Reasons J. O. Nay but I have nothing to say to you further in these particulars if you have no Error to charge them with I will leave them to defend themselves against others Manuscript Arg. 7. That practice whereby we condemn the suffering Saints of the present Age rendring them false Witnesses of God and the only blameable Cause of their own Sufferings is not to be approved but such is this Practice and where this is done on a pretence of Liberty without any Plea of necessary duty on our parts it is utterly unlawful R. B. The Major meaneth either Saints that suffer for well doing or ill-doing J. O. It doth so one of them besure who would have thought upon that fork But do you take the present Sufferers to suffer for ill-doing I 'll assure you you seem to insinuate your meaning pretty clearly by your Exposing in what you lay one that died in Prison as a blameable Cause of his own Sufferings and by many other Actions and Writings of the like Nature Take heed of adding affliction to the afflicted R. B. If the Anabaptists should be suffering Saints I would not be for Anabaptistry for fear of condemning them as the cause of their own Sufferings By that Rule I must own every