parts hath entertain'd The Doctor's Answer THose little things and poor mistakes I confined to the matters of the Church for innovating wherein these latter times make exceptions against our Translation delight in some Notions of Words in Scripture vent new interpretations make strange inferences in which to rest satisfied is below c. Such Page 16. from Notion or Origination of Ecclesia to infer Democratical Government of the Church and that inference for the right of gathering Churches now Page 28. So after in the model what is said for the Notion of {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} to the prejudice of due Ordination and the like Reply IN Judges 20. 2. the Civil Congregation of the Chief of all the Tribes of Israel is called Ecclesia Dei and not onely Greek writers as particularly Aeschines use that word for the Assemblies of the People in the Grecian Common-wealths but Luke also speaking of the People of Ephesus he saith Erat autem Ecclesia confusa wherefore this Word having been of this use before the Apostles and being applyed by them unto their Convocations or Assemblies there must needs have been some reason why they made choice of this rather then of any other Now if the Reason had not been that they intended the Church to be Democratical why would they borrow a word that is of that sense or why should you think that they would give names unto things not according unto their Nature seeing if they had intended it should have been Aristocratical they might as well have taken the word {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} or Senate Wherefore saies Calvin the Lawyer Sumpserunt Apostoli illud melius nomen ad significandum Ecclesiam ut ostenderent politiam Populi Dei esse quidem Democraticam c. I have shewed you my reasons and given you my Testimony and yet you that have neither call this a Notion Then for the Chirotonia or holding up of hands it was the way of giving suffrage in some of those Popular Assemblies more particularly that of Athens and this word the Apostles also came to borrow for the suffrage of their Congregations as in the Greek Acts 14. 23. where they use the Word {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} the same that was used by the Athenians signifying holding up of hands or their manner of suffrage but this the English Translators have left out and where they should have rendred the place and when they had Ordained Elders by the holding up of hands in every Congregation they render it When they had Ordained them Elders in every Church Now You though you know this well enough never lay any blame upon the Translators but with them that find fault with the Translation as if it were less impiety in Divines to corrupt the Scriptures than in others to vindicate them from Corruption And this is another of those things which you have the confidence to call Notions albeit in so doing you must needs sin against your own conscience but what is that to Interest if this place be restored Ordination is restored unto the People and so Divines losing it there is an end of Priest-craft as by telling the story of this invention though in brief will better appear Ordination in the Commonwealth of Israel being primarily nothing else but Election of Magistrates was performed by the suffrage of the people or as is shewn by the Talmudists upon Numb. 11. in Eldad and Medad by the balot Nor was it otherwise till the Sanhedrim got a whim of their own without any precept of God to Ordain their Successors by the Chirothesia or Imposition of hands and the Parties being so ordained calld Presbyters became capable of being elected into the Judicatories whereby cheating the People of the right of electing their Magistrates the Sanhedrim instituted the first Presbyterian Government nevertheless this Form as to the Imposition of hands was not alwaies held so necessary among the Jews but if the party were absent it might be done by letter and sometimes though he were present it was done by verse or charme only But whereas the Senate if not every Senator by this Innovation had right to Ordain by Hilel High Priest and Prince of the Sanhedrim who lived some three hundred yeares before Christ means was found to get the whole power into his hand which being of such consequence that no Magistrate could thenceforth be made but by the High Priest it changed this same first Presbytery the High Priests becomming afterwards Monarchs as I may say into the first Papacy for this track was exactly troden over again by the Christians first to the Presbytery from thence to the Bishop and that by means of the same Chirothesia or Imposition of hands taken up from the Jews and out of this Bishop stept up the Pope and his Seventy Cardinals anciently the Presbytery or Seventy Elders of Rome in imitation of those of Israel Moreover it is the judgement of good Divines as Bullinger Musculus P. Martyr Luther and Melancton that this Chirothesia or Imposition of hands is not necessary for that the Apostles took up some things from the Jews as community of goods which are not necessary you will not deny and if this were not of that kind then wherefore in the place alledged where the Chirotonia prayer and fasting as all things necessary unto Ordination are mentioned is the Chirothesia omitted even by the Apostles themselves Nor can you find that it was otherwise than sparingly used by them in comparison of the Chirotonia or suffrage of the people and perhaps there onely where the people had not the Civil right of any such suffrage by which where it was they Ordained Elders in every Church And in this place comes that of your Answer unto the 7th Quaere Namely That the Church acted three hundred years before the Civil Power became Christian to be very questionable For that Tarsus a City of Cilicia was so free that Paul being a Native thereof claimeth the right of a Roman is clear in Scripture Nor is it more obscure in story that the people in the Cities of Lycia Pamphylia Lycaonia or Cappadocia in which the Apostle ordained Ecclesiastical Elders by the Chirotonia of the Church or Congregation had not only the Ancient right but custom of electing their civil Elders in the same manner and where was the necessity or sense that the Astles to convert them unto the Christian Religion should go about to depose them than which nothing could have caused a greater jealousie obstruction or scandal upon their Doctrine But if the Apostles used the words Ecclesia and Chirotonia in these places according unto the right of the people and the known sense in which they had been alwaies taken then acted not the Church three hundred years nor halfe a hundred years before the Civil Power became Christian And if the Bishops when the Emperors became Christian made no bones of receiving their Mitres from
father Jeroboam an Arrant knave breaking the Empire of Rehoboam a hair-brain'd fool in two pieces whence the children of Judah turning Sodomites a King 14. 24. and they of Israel Idolaters You have Baasha conspiring against Nadab King of Israel murthering him destroying all the Posterity of Jeroboam and reigning in his stead Zimri Captain of the Chariots serving Asa the son with the same sauce when he was drunk killing all of his kinred that pissed againg the Wall as Baasha the father had done Nadab when may chance he was sober Omri hereupon made Captain by the people and Zimri after he had reigned seven daies burning himself The people of Israel when Zimri was burnt dividing into two parts one for Omri and the other for Tibni who is slain in the dispute whereupon Omri out-does all the Tyrants that went before him and when he has done leaves Ahab his son the heir of his Throne and virtue You have Jehu destroying the Family of Ahab giving the flesh of Jezebel unto the dogs and receiving a pretty Present from those of Samaria seventy heads of his Masters sons in Baskets To Asa and Jehoshaphat of the Kings of Judah belongeth much reverence but the wickedness of Athalia who upon the death of her son Ahaziah that shee might reign murthered all her Grand children but one stoln away which was Joash was repaid by that one in the like coin who also was slain by his servants so was his son Amastah that reigned after him and about the same time Zachariah King of Israel by Shallum who reigned in his stead and Shallum was smitten by Manahim who reigned in his stead Battail Royal in Shoo-lane Pekahah the son of Manahim was smitten by Pekah one of his Captains who reigned in his room Pekah by Hoshea who having reigned Nine years in his stead was carried by Salmanezer King of Assyria with the Ten Tribes into Captivity Will Judah take a warning Yes Hezekiah the next is a very good King but Manasseh his son like the rest a shedder of innocent blood to him succeedeth Ammon fathers own child who is slain by his servants Josiah once again is a very good King but Jehoahaz that died by the heels in Egypt deserv'd his end nor was Jehoiakim the brother of the former who became Tributary unto Pharaoh any better In whose Reign his successor Zedechia's was Judah led into Captivity by Nebuchadnezzar the common end of battail Royal where I leave any man to judge how far the unity of a person tends to the unity of Government and whether the temptations of advancing to use your Phrase were greater in the Commonwealth or in the Monarchies of the Hebrews It were easie to shew if you had not enough already that the High Priests when they came to be Princes were never a barrel better herring whereas that there is no such work in Venice Switz or Holland you both know and might if you did not wink as easily see All 's one It is for it is as you have said nay and more in all forms that have been Popular or shall be still the Temptations are more powerful and dangerous as to the change of Government this put them upon great inconveniences by often changing their Generals of Armies A pound of Clergy for which take an ounce of wisdome in this Maxim evinced by Machiavel Prolongation of Magistracy is the ruine of popular Government The not often changing their Generals or Dictators was the bane of the Common-wealths both of Rome and of Israel as by the corruption of Samuel's sons Moss that groweth not upon a roling stone is apparent And for the banishment of Great Men Name me one that since those Governments were settled hath been banished from Venice Switz or Holland The Examples in Rome are but two that can be objected by a rational man in Seven hundred years and I have answered those in my Book For the Ostracisme though I hold it a foolish Law yet where the people have not had the prudence to found their Government upon an Agrarian I shew'd you out of Reason Aristotle and experience that it is a shift they will be put to whether a punishment or not Though no man that is versed in the Greek story can hold it to have been so esteem'd The fifth Quaere Whether Men as they become richer or poorer free or servile be not of a different Genius or become new modeld and whether these things happen not as the ballance changes The Doctors Answer SVch suddain changes of the Genius and Nature of Men I leave to the Pipe of Orpheus or Ovids Metamorphosis Reply A Pretty jeer but there is one in that Book metamorphosed into the Bird that cannot see by day Now a change that happens in the Revolution of one hundred and forty years is not suddain but so long hath the Government in question been changing from Aristocratical to popular and if the Acts of popular Councils from that time have still been and be to this hour more and more popular the Genius of the people is as cleer as the day with the alteration of it in those opinions you in your first Letter are pleased to call the ignorance or wilfulnesse of these daies that since the Aristocratical ballance of the Clergy is gone shake the yoak of the Priest The Butcher sought his Knife and had it in his mouth The sixth Quaere Whether Gentlemen have been more beholding unto Divines or Men in Orders or Divines more beholding unto Gentlemen or such as have not been in Orders for the knowledge which we have of the Commonwealth of the Hebrews or who of each sort have written best upon that Subject The Doctor's Answer COmparisons being Odious I onely say Divines have cause to give learned Gentlemen their due and thanke for their labours but also cause to complain when they are too bold with holy things not onely with the Commonwealth of the Hebrews the Forme that God then appointed but also with the Government of the Christian Church the form and functions left by Christ and his Apostles according to which the Church acted three hundred years before the Civil power became Christian Reply DIvines have cause to complain when Gentlemen are too bold with holy things as with the Commonwealth of the Hebrews but if you ask who of each sort have written best upon this Subject Comparisons aae odious here you can be modest for no body hath written in this kind but Carolus Sigonius Buxtorfius Cornelius Bertramus Hugo Grotius Selden and Cunaeus all which were Gentlemen or such as were not in Orders Nor can it be gathered from any thing now extant that any Divine understood this Government But if Divines cannot deal with this Government and Gentlemen may not how should it be known or if Divines understand not this why do they meddle with others The seventh Quaere What and how many be those little things and poor mistakes which the Author below a Gentleman of his
PIAN PIANO OR INTERCOURSE BETWEEN H. FERNE Dr. in Divinity AND J. HARRINGTON Esq. Upon occasion of the Doctors Censure of the COMMON-WEALTH OF OCEANA â—entit terra Deos mutataque syder a pondus Quaesivêre suum Petron Sal. LONDON Printed for Nath. Brook at the Angel in Cornhil 1656. EPISTLE To the READER Reader I Seldom talk with him that does not confute me nor ever read that which did not confirm me wherefore if I be glad to take a man in black and white you will not blame me or do not know that I have had an University about my eares without any possibility left unto me whereby to defend my selfe but this in which you may imagine me speaking unto the Chaire INTERCOVRSE Between H. FERNE Dr in Divinity and JAMES HARRINGTON Esq upon occasion of the Doctors censure of the Commonwealth of Oceana WHen I had published my Oceana one of my sisters making good provision of Copies presented of them unto her friends as well to shew her respect to them as to know their judgements of it Among the rest being acquainted with Doctor Ferne she sent him one and soon after received this answer Madam I Received a Booke directed to me from your Ladiship with intimation I should expresse my sense of it I acknowledge Madam the favour you have done me in sending it but the return you expect hath its difficulties the Book being now past the Press and of such an argument had I seen it before it was publique I should have said it was not likely to please c. but that is nothing to me your desire I suppose is to know how I like it I conceive your Ladiship is not so far a stranger either to the Booke which you sent or to me whome you are pleased thus to owne but that you take me to be of a different judgement from the Author in this his forme whether concerning State or Church And it may be your Ladiship did therefore call me to speak as one that would be lesse partial Give me leave then Madam in plain English to say that albeit the Author hath shewn good sufficiency of parts and taken much pains in order to his design yet I conceive First that he is not a little mistaken in thinking the Israel-Common-wealth or Government under Moses so appliable unto his purpose as he would make it Next that when the question 'twixt his form and the Monarchical is disputed over and over again reason and experience will still plead for the latter Nor can the ballance he pretends stand so steady in his form as in a well tempered Monarchie by reason the temptations of advancing are more like to sway with many in a Common Weal then with one c. in the height of Dignity Next When I consider such a change by this Modell from what was ever in c. And that the Agrarian with some other levelling Orders are the laws of it I should think the nature of men was first to be new model'd before they would be capable of this Lastly what is said in relation to the Church or Religion in the point of Government Ordination Excommunication had better beseemed Leviathan and is below the parts of this Gentleman to retain and sit down with those little things and poor mistakes which the ignorance or wilfulnesse of many in these days hath broached in way of quarrel against the Church of England And lamentable it is to see so many especially Gentlemen of good parts so opinionate so boldly medling in matters of Religion as if they had forgot or did not understand their Article of the Catholique Church Madam You see I have been plain in speaking my sense and hope you will think me therefore more fit to do you reall service when you shall have occasion to command Madam Your humble Servant Nov. 4th. 56. THe Doctor's letter though it be scandalous for to charg a writer of little things poor mistakes sitting down by ignorance or wilfulnesse without proof is no better was yet but private and therefore I may be asked why I would make it publique whereunto I answer That what a Divine will have to be true is no lesse publique then if it were printed but more for he will Preach it and Preaching communicates unto more then can read Also his present Doctrines are exceeding dangerous For in government that is cast upon Parliaments or popular elections as ours hath ever been and is to take wise men and understanding and known among their Tribes to be Rulers over them hath ever except where the people were not free in their elections been and must ever be the certain and infallible consequence Now wise men and understanding and known among their Tribes must needs be at least for the greater part of that rank which we now call the Aristocracy or Gentlemen Whence the Senate in every well ordered Commonwealth hath consisted of the Aristocracy or Gentry And that the Senate ever had the supreme Authority as well in matters of Religion as State is not only clear in all other popular Governments but in the Old Testament which also is confirmed by our Saviour in the New Mat. 23. 2. The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses's seat and therefore whatsoever they bid you observe both He and His Apostles observed the national Religion observe and do for the liberty of conscience or prophetick right in the Common-wealth of Israel as in others was such as by which Christianity notwithstanding the national Religion might grow But do not saith he after their works for they say and do not In their inquiry after John Joh. 1. they seem to imply or say that if he were that Prophet there was nothing in the Law why he might not introduce his Baptism and therefore why he might not gather Churches or instruct the people in his way Neverthelesse when they come to doing they kill the Prophets and stone them This indeed Christ blameth being the abuse of their power But whereas the supreme Authority of the Senate whether in matters of Religion or State is confirmed by all divine and humane prudence and the Senate is the more peculiar Province of the Gentry The Doctor saith that Lamentable it is to see so many not only men of such parts or quality as the people in their elections are not likely to look upon but especially Gentlemen of good parts then which the people upon like occasions have no other refuge so opinionate so boldly medling in matters of Religion as if they had forgot or did not understand their Article of the Catholique Church Now where ever the Clergy have gained this point namely that they are the Catholique Church or that it is unlawful for Gentlemen either in their private capacity to discourse or in their publique to propose as well in the matter of Church as State Government neither government nor Religion have fayled to degenerate into meere Priest-craft This especially was the reason why I wrote