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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	according_a	authority_n	power_n	3,396	5	4.4641	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09739	Ane answer made the fourth day of Septembre a thousand fyue hundreth syxtie [and] one, by maister Theodore de Besza minister of the holie Euangile, in the presence of the quene mother, the king and quene of Nauarre, the princes of the blood royall, and of the priuie counseil, vnto that whiche the cardinall of Lorraine had replied against that whiche was propounded in the first iourney of their talking together, by the said de Besza in the name of the reformed churches. Together with an other short answer made by the said de Besza the 26 day of the said moneth vnto certein articles of replie set forth by the said cardinall	Bèze, Théodore de, 1519-1605.; Baron, John.	1562 (1562)	STC 2000; ESTC S119255	24,857	90

them that are superfluouse These pointes being resolued it is easie to decyde this question if the Churche be aboue the Scripture the whiche semeth to me to be so foolish a question as if one asked whether the infant or childe were aboue his father the woman aboue her husband yea the man aboue God And in very dede the trew Churche will neuer striue against God in suche a quarrell nor none other but will escaip condemnation And it serueth to no purpose to say that the Churche was before the Scripture For althogh that so it be yet it is so that this worde that afterwardes haeth bene written is alweys more ancient seinge that by the same the Churche hath bene conceiued ingendred and nourished as it haeth bene said The saying of S. Augustine is alledged in this behalf I wold not beleue the Scripture if y e authoritie of the Churche moued me not thereunto But here must ye cōsider that Saint Augustine speaketh of him self as a Manicheen When therefore two parties will debate or stryue for the treuth of an instrument vnto whome shall they haue recourse but vnto nota●ies w c kepe the registre thereof And yet notwithstanding it can not be said that the register is founded vpone y e witnessinges of notaries the whiche should not faill to be trew althogh no man liuing bare witnes thereof Euen so muche hereof must we answer vnto them that think that the authoritie of the canonicall bookes is not founded vpon that whiche the Churche haeth determined thereof as if it were so that there were found determinations of Councelles altogether diuers in this pointe y t whiche may be more at large declared in a mutuall conference It shall suffice me to alledge besides y t whiche I haue before spoken one onely reason accompanyed with the authoritie of some of the ancientes that be well approued The reason is this that Iesus Christ him self haeth so muche honored y e doctrine of the Prophetes that he ratified and proued his doctrine by y e witnessing of them S. Paule suffered that they of Tessalonique should do the lyke as it is written in the 17 chaptre of y e Actes Saint Petre haeth expresly allowed this maner of doing Then must not they that say that they be the vicares of Iesus Christe and successors of Saint Petre and S. Paule refuse the lyke condition And further consider what S. Ierome sayeth in the 9 chaptre of his second booke vpone Ieromie y t men must nether follow the error of their fathers nor of their ancitors but the authoritie of the Scriptures And Saint Chrisostome vpone the 24 of Saint Mathew in the 49 homelie The same man sayeth he that wold knowe whiche is y e trew Churche of Iesus Christe how shall he know it in so great a confusion of suche semblance or liknes also why is it that in y e tyme then all the Christians oght to retire and draw them selues to the Scriptures Forasmuche as that after that tyme that heresie had obteined and occupyed the Churches there might be no certē probation had of the trew Christianitie nor other refuge vnto Christians willing to know the treuth of the faith but the holie Scriptures Lykewyse oure Lorde knowing so great confusion to come in the latter dayes cōmādeth that the Christians whiche be in the Christianitie w c wold haue a trew and firme fayth should haue none other refuge but to y e Scriptures or els if they regarded other thinges they should be offended and perishe not knowinge what were the trew Churche and by that meanes they should fall in to the abhomination of desolation y t whiche is set in the holy place of the Churche Saint Basill also in his moralles the 12 chaptre of the 9 somme writeth thus if all thing that is without faith is sinne as the Apostle saieth and faith is by hearing and hearing is of the worde of God all that is without the Scripture whiche is inspired of God is sinne Lykewyse the same author in his sermon of the confession of the faith If the Lorde be faythful in all his wordes and all his cōmandementes be sure for euer done in veritie and righteousnes It is manifestly to turne frō the faith and a cryme of pride to reiecte any thing of that that is written or to introduce any thing more that haeth not bene written seing that oure Lorde Iesus Christ haeth said my shepe heare my voice follow not a stranger but flie frō him because they knowe not his word Hitherto Madame I haue answered according to the measure of the knowledge that God haeth geuen vs vnto y e first point of the last oration of my Lordes the Prelates concerning the estate and authoritie of y e Churche of oure Lorde Where of as yet we are redy to vnderstād all that shalbe shewed vnto vs by the pure worde of God There resteth the article of the Supper the w c I will leaf of if it please youre Maiestie aswell because ye are to long holden and all the present assistance as also because of the desire that we haue that this conference should be begonne after a better ordre because all that in speaking sōmarelie of a mater y t hitherto haeth bene wrapped vp in so greate obscuritie it should be very hard but that many wordes shoulde escape how trew soeuer they were that shoulde offend the heartes of them that should heare them Neuerthelesse if it pleaseth youre Maiestie that we go forwarde we are redy to speak therof that whiche the Lorde will giue vs to vnderstand Submitting alweys oure selues vnto that whiche shalbe shewed by the holy Scriptures And make humble supplication vnto youre maiestie to be persuaded that next to y e glorie of God there is no thing that we seke with so greate desyre as the rest and quietnes of youre Maiestie of all this Realme ❧ Ane answer the xxvj day of septembre the yere a thousand fyue hundreth sixtie and one ▪ Being arriued at Poyssy twelue ministers of the worde of God with twelue deputies of Churches in an hall where was the Quene mother the King Quene of Nauarre the princes of the blood royall and all the Lordes of Councell and other Lordes of the one syde of the other part 5 Cardinalles w t many bus●hops and Theologiens of all sortes My Lorde Cardinall of Lorrain declared in few wordes that this assemble was made to heare what y e said ministers had to say vnto that whiche he had proponded two dayes befor whereat Theodore rase vp in the name of the said xij ministers for all the Churches of France that be reformed and answered as followeth Madame the last tyme y t it pleased you to giue vs audience we made declaratiō according to y e grace that oure Lord gaue vs of the article y t was propoūded touching the Churche the marckes and authoritie of

❧ Ane answer made the fourth day of septembre a thousand fyue hundreth syxtie one by maister Theodore de Besza minister of the holie Euangile in the presence of the Quene mother the King and Quene of Nauarre the Princes of the blood royall and of the priuie counseil vnto that whiche the Cardinall of Lorraine had replied against that whiche was propounded in the first iourney of their talking together by the said de Besza in the name of the reformed Churches Together with an other short answer made by the said de Besza the 26 day of the said moneth vnto certein articles of replie set forth by the said Cardinall Imprinted at Edinburgh by Robert Lekprewik Cum priuilegio 1562. Iohn Baron to the reader w●he● grace mercie and peace c. WHen as thies two orations of that great learned and right godlie minister of gods worde Theoder De Besza were broght vnto me to be trāslated out of frenche into englishe gētle Reader for that of certen yeres before I knew y e man to be of so great knowledge and specially so greatly fearing God I was driuen with a great desyre to reade them and after that I had redde them with a more feruent desyre was I rapt whatsoeuer other busynes I had to do being layd asyde to trāslate them Not onely for that they flowed from suche a notable instrument of God but also specially because that in the name and by aduise and assent of so many excellent and godlie learned ministeres they were pronounced and that in suche a famouse and moste honorable audience The matters conteined in the same orations be maters of oure religion suche as at this present be in controuersie and therefore moste nedefull to be knowen vnto the faithfull of oure cuntrie the faithfull I mean that be but of simple knowledge yet be desyrous to learne Aswell because thereby they may by vertue of gods word establish their consciences in the treuth of these maters as also for that they may there summarelie haue in a redynes oute of y e holie Scriptures good and sufficient auctorities to defend them selues in the same against the malicious soldiors of Satan the Papistes and lykewise to confounde them with all their sophisticall and vnreasonable reasons whiche haue not onely of a long season moste craftely seduced many but also moste crewelly suppressed and destroied many of the faithfull with the name and auctoritie of the Churche whiche they moste wrongfully and iniuriously arrogated to them selues when as in very dede they were and be no thing els but the horrible and filthie Synagoge of y e deuill as by their stinking and detestable maners and theire blasphemous and moste pestilent doctrine whiche be their frutes may moste euidently appere vnto all them whiche haue any knowledge in y e worde of God For without any lawfull calling by diuerse vnlefull meanes boeth against Gods law and mans law haue they intruded them selues into the Churche of God and in stede of the liuely worde of God they haue taught their owne doctrine and dreames and the holy Sacramentes with their away taking that whiche the Lorde Iesus instituted and commanded and with their to putting many things whiche the Lorde Iesus neuer commanded they haue altogether altered and contamined So that in stede to haue God honored and the people of God edified taught strengthened and cōforted they haue dishonored and blasphemed the Maiestie of God and to their vtermoste discouraged and destroyed his people But the chief maters herein contened be thies The Churche and what it is the marcks of the true Churche what aucthoritie it haeth whether it may erre If it please thee gentle Reader with iudgement of a sincere heart to consider thies orations thou shalt finde the same boeth godlie and learnedly declared to the praise of God and edefieng of his faithfull people An answer made the twentie four day of Septembre a thousand fyue hundreth sixtie and one Being arriued at Poissy twelue ministers of the worde of God ī an hall where were present the Quene mother the King and Quene of Nauarre the princes of the blood royall and all the Lordes of Counsell and other Lordes of the one parte and on the other parte fyue Cardinalles with many busshops and Theologues of all sortes The Lorde Cardinall of Lorrane declared in few wordes that this assemblie was made to heare what that we had to say vnto that which he had propounded eight dayes before whervnto Theodore de Besza rising vp in the name of the said 12 ministers for all the frenche Churches reformed answered as followeth hauing an verie good audience and attention of all the assemblie Madame first calling vpon the name of oure Lorde God that it may please him to assist vs with his especiall grace in an mater of so great consequence that we may be vtterly voyde of all particuler opinions and passions and that their might be planted in to oure heartes in stede thereof a right knowledge of his veritie with an earnest desire to set it forth to the honnor of his holie name and to the auancement of youre maiestie and to the quietnes of all Christendome and namelie of this realme we shall brieflie answer vnto that whiche it haeth plesed the Lorde Cardinall to declare vnto vs vpon two pointes onelie of our confession which haeth bene three tymes presented vnto youre maiestie to wit vpon that whiche concerneth the Churche and the aucthoritie thereof and vpon the holy supper of oure Lorde Iesus Christe Trew it is that if we might haue had the fauore to haue made answer immediatlie when as we had a freshe remembrance of that that we had heard or els that we might haue had in oure handes the said oration to consider it we might haue answered more destinctly point by point and perhappes more properly But how soeuer it be we shall speak thereof that w c God will giue vnto vs so that men may vnderstād wherein we may alredie be accorded and likwyse the pointes wherein as yet we vary and be different whereof we humblie pray oure God that according to his great mercies it may please him to aggree vs. So now as touching y e first point of the Churche we shall treat it in thre partes The first what is the Churche The seconde what be the markes of it The third what is the authoritie thereof It is moste certen that this name of the Churche is taken and drawen oute of a greke worde whiche signifieth as muche as to call frome one place to an other But we find in the Scripture that there is two maner of callinges the one is ●oyned with the efficacie of the holy Spririt of the whiche is spoken in y e right chapitre of the Epistle to the Romains where it is said that God ●ustifieth them that he calleth the other althogh it be the self same outwardlie as the first is yet is it

beawtie where there shall be neyther spot nor wrinckle it knoweth God but it is in a parte When I speake thus I beleue y t ye know the Apostles owne wordes For to be brief I confesse that without y e Churche there is no saluatiō because there is no lyfe but in Iesus Christe Iesus Christe imployeth not his liuelie vertue no where els but amongest his membres the vnion and assemblie whereof is called the Churche But the question is to know whether that in this world the Churche may erre and whether it be aboue the Scripture or els altogether subiect vnto the same Hereunto do I answer that it is a thing without all doubte that the particuler membres of the Churche may erre and do erre daylie bothe in doctrine and maners according vnto that whiche S. Paule sayeth that we knowe in a parte and S. Iohn that if we say y t we haue no sinne we deceiue oure selues But if any body will except out of this nombre the ancient doctors he shall perdonne vs if we beleue him not For it were easie for vs to gather many witnesses of fautes y t be foūd in the greatest and moste ancient of them let this be spoken sauing the reuerence due vnto their godlines and learning But we will not stay oure selues so muche here for the honnor that we heare vnto them and y t not without good cause as also because if I haue well vnderstand the sayeng of my Lorde Cardinall that he is no more of that mynde then we to deceiue them without exception This is it that we vnderstand of the membres of the Churche in particularitie the imperfection whereof doeth not stoppe but y t the Churche is formed and made thereof For by litle and litle do they go forwarde aswell in the knowledge of God as in the amendment of life But if the membres of the Churche be generally considered as it is destributed in diuers diocess and prouinces shall we say that it may ●rre Again if I remembre well my Lorde Cardinall was lately of that 〈…〉 specially the particuler Churches prouinciall Councelles may erre and haue often erred and surely that is ratified by so long an experience that no man of iudgemēt as I suppose can doubte thereof There resteth therefore to cōsider the hole Churche in an vniuersalitie but in what sorte For cōsidering it in the estimation of an vniuersall Councell first of all there is no greate apperance to iudge that all the vertue that the holy Goste employeth vpon y e Churche is restreyned to an certen nombre of Prelats the whiche be not alweys y e most learned nor y e best yea althogh they represent the hole multitude that sēdeth them For how often tymes will it come to passe that a simple man shall haue more vnderstanding at an instant then the moste wyse of an hole company And therefore was it said by Gerson y t more credit oght to be giuen to one priuate faithfull man then to an hole Coūcell and to the Pope if he haue better authoritie or reason And namely in y e great Councell of Nece by whome was it stopped that the law of single lyfe whiche afterwarde haeth broght so great filthynes into the Churche was not then established By one Paphnutius onely as sayeth the historie And moreouer whē was there euer assembled a Councell so generall but that a greate parte not onely of the moste wyse and moste holie men but also of the Prelates haue remayned be hinde And who may than assure but that they that were absent some tymes had greater reuelation then they that were present And besydes all this my Lordes how long is it a go that there reigned so horrible a cōfusiō in y e Churche and principally in the great estates dignities of Prelates in such sorte that the greatest desolation of the house of God is in that parte where it oght to be moste entier and best decked At the least it is a long tyme past that the exemples hereof haue appered that y e good Busshops haue sobbed sighed so grieuously therefore so euidently that we heare them at this day And that whiche S. Barnard wryteth of this mater in his book of consideration and in the 33 sermon on the Canticles and also in the sermon of the conuersion of S. Paule is noles notoriouse thē true Allas Lorde sayeth he they whche be sene to loue the first and chief places ī thy Churche and their to haue y e superioritie be first in a redynes to persecute thee They haue take● the Ark of Sion they haue vio●lently possessed the Castell and by power haue set fyre on th● hole Citie Let this be spoken m● Lordes not to iniurie any body bi● to shew that the chief vocations i● the Churche being of so long a tym● so confused and misreuled that it i● impossible to conclude in any wys● that the vniuersall Councelles tha● haue bene now of a long tyme ga●thered together of a multitude so e●● qualified haue bene so guyded by 〈◊〉 holy Spirit that they coulde no● erre An ancient Priest of whome I wolde make no mention in this cōpany if it were not that they alledg● his example in this mater did prophesie well althogh he was no thing worth But we reade none otherwyse but he erred yea both y t he his company in condemning Iesus Christ for it was the holy Goste y t propheseid in this behalf and not he whiche knew not what he said nor what he spoke being moued w t a Spirit very contrarious that is to say a deuilish Spirit because of malice he concluded to sic a Iesus Christe the Sonne of God And further if a generall Councell haeth receiued this priuiledge that they can not erre in y e rewle of their doctrine nor in y e forme of their maners we demand what tyme was this priuiledge dated For there was neuer but one God one Faith and one Churche Now that there was error in the Churche in the tyme of the olde Testamēt the Prophetes openlye beare witnes and y e histories shew good proof thereof All y e wache men sayeth Esay 56 ▪ chaptre be blind they know no thing they are all domme dogges ▪ And Ierem 6 chaptre Frome the Prophet to the priest they work all vntrueth And to the intēt y t this might not be restreyned vnto the life of particuler persons it is said in the 14 chaptre of the same Prophet they prophesie fals thinges and a lieng vision And in Isay the 29 chaptre The wisdome of the wyse shall perishe the vnderstāding of y e prudent shall vanishe away God shall shut vp the eyes of the Prophetes and of y e principalles And in Ezechiell the 7 chaptre The law shall perishe frome the Priest And to say the trueth who condemned y e Prophetes as Ieremias

the same Wherein we haue so followed y e worde of God that euery one as we iudge had occasion to be cōtented with oure answer But in stede to approue that whiche was spoken by vs we haue bene demāded by what power we minister y e word of God and the holie Sacramētes and besydes all that there was no thing spared that might make oure cause more odiouse We can not tell for what purpose this was set forward For first of all we came not hither to minister the worde of God nor the Sacramentes Wherefore there was no nede to ask vs by what authoritie we wold do it If it should be said that it is to cause vs rendre a reason of that whiche we haue done heretofore Ye must consider that oure company is of two maner of people the one serue for ministers without this realme ī places where their vocation is receiued of them it may not be demanded why they be ministers There is others that preache within this realme whome ye haue not called to cause them giue an accompt of that w c is past as touching their vocation but onelie to conferre with their doctrine or els it should be a beginning to make proces against them the whiche thīg Madame we are sure that ye haue not mynded If it be after a sorte to conferre vnder correction there should be therein no great purpose and y t could not serue but to cause vs entre into this matter out of the w c we could not depart without offending and angring my Lordes y e Prelates The whiche we haue not mynded nether will we giue occasion vnto any body to interrupt this holy work that is begonne And that it may be knowen y t we speake not without great cause alweys as two parties mete to entre into conference if the one aske the other by what vertue do you this The other will demande the lyke and so it wilbe very hard but of these reciproque demandes there will arise some dissention Therefore now leauing a part my Lordes the Prelates of this realme whome we will not offend let vs imagin vnto vs a busshop that demandeth of vs by what tytle preache ye and minister ye the Sacramente We will demande of him if he him self was chosen by the ancientes or elders of the Churche vnto the whiche he is appointed to be busshop if he was requyred by the people if there was informatiō before that taken of his lyfe and doctrine he wold say yea But the contrarie is well knowen and we remitte oureselues vnto the conscience of them that heare vs w c knowe how this goeth And if he wold say vnto vs ye are not ministers because ye haue not the imposition of handes we might answer him ye are no minister because that in youre institutiō or ordeinīg were omitted the substanciall pointes and that cōmanded by Gods lawe the whiche may not be dispensed with And if y e disputatiō grew more hote we should go further may vse such wordes ye haue but one of the three pointes requisit in the institution or ordeyning whiche is the imposition of handes if the wanting of that as ye esteme doeth depriue vs that we can not be ministers for want of the other two muche lesse ye shall be ministers then we The Councell of Calcidome whiche is one of the 4 generall Coūcelles ordeyned that that the institution of a priest should be voyde whiche haeth not bene deputed spicially vnto y e seruice of sōe Churche irrita sayeth he in iniuriam ordinantis With more strong reason may we say the same to the Busshop y t should dispute with vs when he wāteth y e two substāciall poī●es cōtrary to the ordināce of y e Apostle Yet se an other point whiche greueth vs greatly to speake and yet neuertheles be we constreyned thereunto that we may shew to all this company that if this disputation of the vocatiō were ones opened it should be greatly dangerouse if we should ask him who gaue him this imposition of handes he wold say that it was the Busshops by the authoritie y t was giuen vnto them And if we should ask him for how muche he boght that authoritie he will say that he haeth not boght it but that he haeth giuē so many thousād crounes that is to say I haue not boght the bread but the corne So that if ye were willīg to decide this question by the Councelles or canons of the Churche there shoulde an infinite nombre of Busshoppes and curates haue red faces And therefore Madame we are not willīg to ētre therein for feare to offēd any body nor to make any reuenge but onely to shew you Madame y t if we should briefly answer this is the desire that we haue not to offend any body And as touchīg the article of y e holy Supper of oure Lorde we wold not of late speak any further of it but hauing a respect to many of this cōpany whiche haue not bene accustomed to heare speak thereof any thing so forwardly but y t they wilbe easily offēded when they heare any thing that semeth new vnto them And therefore we had rather that they should heare the sayings of the an●ient doctors of the Churche th● ours considering y t my Lorde Cardinall of Lorrain haeth bound him self by his promes openly to īstruct vs in this article with the wordes of the doctors that wrote the firste fyve hundreth yeres so y t we were prepared to receiue the light if it had bene shewed vnto vs that whiche hitherto haeth bene hidde frome vs. Now to saitisfie vs and also a great part of Christendome in that that we desyred looked for there was propounded to vs the article of the holie Sacrament cut of and mingled i● the principale and moste necessarie pointes therewith it was said vnto vs signe this if not we will go no further And if we were presented prisoners vnto you to be accused yet should ye not say signe this if not I condemne you youre estate bindeth you to speake otherwayes and cōmandeth you to shew vs oure errors if we had any and willeth that ye should be sufficient to exhort in holsome doctrine them that haue nede of doctrine and that be redy to rendre a reasone of their faith by the Scriptures And althogh the manner to condemne vs is new yet the means whiche haue bene therein vsed be more strange as I shall shortly shew Madame we are here present for two prīcipale endes the one is to rēdre a reasone to God and to you to all the worlde of oure faith the other is to do seruice to God and to the King and to you in all possible meanes to appese and mittigate the troobles that be risen in the cause of religion If ye send vs away agaī without giuing vs some with wh●̄e we might charitably conferre there shalbe no