yée are farre wide for let it be that their next parents before haue béene hypocrites and vnfaithfull yet may they bée the séede of the faithfull for their interest in Gods couenant doth as béeing the seede of the faithfull not depend vppon theyr next parents but vppon the auncient Christians theyr fore-fathers for when he sayth I will be thy God and the God of thy seede the promise is made to a thousand generations Exod. 20. It is sayd that Leuy payd Tithes vnto Melchisedech because he was in the loynes of Abraham when he met Melchisedech and gaue Tythes Hebrewes 7. ver 9. 10. Abraham begat Isaake Isaake begat Iaakob and Iaakob begate Leuie and yet of Leuie it is sayd that he was in the loynes of Abraham yea it must néedes be confessed that all the whole Nation of the Iewes were in the loynes of Abraham Our Sauiour Christ according to the fleshe was in the loynes of Abraham For this cause Saint Peter calleth all the Iewes the children of the Prophets and of the couenant Acts. 3. ver 25. So doth S. Paule Rom. 9. and in that respect they be all called holie Rom. 11. If the first fruites be holie so is the lumpe if the roote be holie so are the boughes Abraham Isaak and Iaakob are the first fruites and the roote all the Israelites the lumpe and the boughes but were they all faithfull no nor yet the greater part for Esayas cryeth that if the number of the children of Israell were as the sand of the sea yet but a remnant should be saued Esay 10. How often doth the Lorde complayne euery where of the greeuous infidelitie and rebellion in the greatest part of that Nation Why then are they called holie and the holie people being many of them reprobates Is it not because they be Abrahams seede and were in the Church by outward profession adding this withall that the elect of God euen the right holie seede were in theyr loynes for Gods chosen did not spring only from the sanctifyed but also from other who touching the outward profession and touching the holy seede which was in theyr loynes were esteemed as members in the Church and were all of them euen the whole nation called the holy people It is not disalowed that in the times of idolatrie openly maintained their children were circumcised Nay further the Lord calleth the children of those wicked idolaters his children Thou hast sayth he by Ezechiel taken thy sonnes and thy daughters which thou broughtest foorth vnto me and sacrificed vnto them to be consumed Thou hast slayne my sonnes and giuen them by causing them to passe through to them Ezech. 16. ver 21. These Idolaters did offer their children to Deuils euen to the Idols of Canaan and shead innocent bloud euen the bloud of their sonnes and daughters when they caused them to passe through the fire Psal 106. If the promise to Abraham and his séede had not béen so effectual as that the holy chosen séede was in the loyns of these Idolaters how could they be said to bring foorth Sonnes Daughters to the Lord How could it be sayd thou hast slayn my sonnes or how could they rightly haue béen circumcised If ye say these Idolaters should not haue remained in the Church but if not by the Ciuill power put to death yet by the censure of the Church cast foorth Yea but there was so generall a declining that neyther of these was performed and so they remayned styll in the Church and brought foorth children vnto God euen such as the couenant made with Abraham did belong vnto they were in his loines they were his séede and not cut off by the wickednes of theyr next parents If yée obiect that the Iewes nowe at this day are the seede of Abraham and by that reason should be still the visible Church I aunswere that although there be Gods elect among them whome eyther he taketh away in their infancie or else calleth them to knowe Christ when they come to mans estate yet the Iewes can not now be called the visible Church nor the Church in as much as they haue reiected hym in whome the Couenant was ratifyed euen the Lord Iesus Christ and therefore he sayde vnto them the Vineyard shall be taken from those Husbandmen and let foorth vnto other And then expounding himselfe he sayth the Kingdome of God shall be taken from yee and giuen to a nation that will bring foorth the fruite thereof The Vineyard was not taken from those naughtie Husbandmen that killed the seruants of the Lord of the Vineyard which came for fruites euen the Prophets vntill they had killed the sonne and heire himselfe Now the naturall braunches are broken off and the wilde oliues euen the Gentiles are graffed in Rom. 11. They are nowe the children of Abraham and heyres of the promise as it is sayd I haue made thée a father of many Nations And in thy séede all Nations of the earth shall be blessed Our fore-fathers many of them declyned in the Apostasie and worshipped Idols but as the Idolatrous Iewes so they remayned still in the Church and brought foorth children to God that is such as were within the Couenant to be accounted the holie séede and so of right were to haue the seale of the couenant set vpon them euen Baptisme We can not say therefore that the Couenant was disanulled and that the Churche vtterlie fayled no not euen in the most horrible confusion of popery but Antichrist did sit in the temple of God 2. Thes 2 Those idolaters were in the Church and the heirs of promise in their loines for we and all the Churches are sprung out of them sealed with the signe of the Couenant as of right belonging vnto vs from our holye auncestors But you Brownists as Catabaptists denie that we haue the signe of the Couenant for yee say we haue no Sacraments If we bee not within the Couenant from our ancestours what are you who hath béene sent from God to call yée vnto a Couenant which yée were not within before Who hath giuen yée the signe of the Couenant or haue yee receiued a couenant without a signe How will you indure this terrible voice of Almightie God yée haue rooted vppe and cast foorth my sonnes and my daughters For if it were said to idolators yée haue slaine my sonnes how much more vnto you which in a most proud furie with intollerable boldnesse and crueltie roote vp and cast foorth the infants of whole assemblies which haue renounced idolatry and professe the Gospell because yée doo account them prophane Let it be they are many of them nothing such as they ought to be but sinners and such as should by the Censures of the Church bee brought into better order yet professing Christ and remaining in the Church their infants are not by their vngodlinesse cast foorth of the Couenant I conclude therefore that the Church of England or at the least many of the teachers and guides
therefore the couenant is disanulled with them all I will therefore prooue that I haue said by strong arguments the first shall be this Whosoeuer maintaineth that where any grosse sinnes breake forth and appeare there is not any true faith in the parties which offend he doth contrary to the expresse word of God maintaine flat heresie for we are taught euery where that regeneration which consisteth in putting of the old man and putting on the new is by degrées wrought in Gods elect Whervpon the holy Ghost compareth the spirituall birth with the naturall A man is borne a poore weake babe not able to go alone or yet to stand vpright hee is nourished and fed with milke and so in continuance dooth growe vp by degrées vnto mans estate We are borne againe not of mortall but of immortall seed euen the word of God which indureth foreuer 1. Pet. 1. wherefore he willeth that laying aside all maliciousnes deceipt hypocrisie and such like we couet the sincere milke of the word that we may grow thereby 1. Pet. 2. ver 1. 2. The regenerate are in many places exhorted to put off and to mortifie euill and vncleane lusts to forsake their wicked sins Rom. 12. Ephes 4. Colos 3. Iam. 1. And if in many things we sinne all Iam. 4. Yea euē such as are grown vp in Christ to mans estate How many shall we then suppose are the falles of poore new borne Babes if Dauid Solomon Samson and many other replenished with great grace did fall gréeuously how shall we looke that other shall be frée Let the Church of Corinth be for an example in this point euen the teachers and people together vnto whom S. Paul writeth thus I could not speake vnto yee brethren as vnto spirituall men but as vnto carnall men as vnto babes in Christ I gaue yee milke to drinke and not meate for yee could not beare it neither can yee now for yee are yet carnall for when as there are among yee emulation contention and discords are yee not carnall and walke as men when one saith I am of Paul an other I am of Apollo are yee not carnall 1. Cor. 3. ver 1. 2. 3. 4. Is not the matter as cléere as the Sunne that he calleth them carnal burthened with the flesh and in that respect prophane as their open sinnes did declare and yet babes in Christ regenerate through faith and the déere children of God It is said of our Sauiour Hee will not breake the brused reed nor quench the smoaking Flax Math. 12. ver 20. Saint Paul following the steps of his Maister in care in loue in mercie and compassion toward the poore weake babes in Christ behaued himselfe in the Churches as a nursse vnto hir little infants 1. Thess 2. ver 8. But the fierce Brownists doo maintaine contrary to this manifest doctrine of the Scriptures that where corrupt manners breake foorth in those that professe the Gospell they be not onely vtterly voide of faith which offend but also that all they which worship together with them though neuer so much gréeued at their sinnes are fallen from the couenant most cruelly by this meanes thrusting downe all the weake and casting foorth all poore babes I may say the strong together with them therefore the Brownists doo maintaine heresye Euery faithfull man is to follow the example of blessed Paul in that which he dooth testifie of himselfe how he forgat the things which were behinde and pressed forward toward the things which were before euen towards perfection Phil. 3. ver 14. But yet it followeth in the same place neuerthelesse in that vnto which we are come let vs procéed by one rule to be like affected Shall the strong when all are to take the iourney together runne away and leaue the babes and the féeble behinde them nay rather let them leade them by the hand carie them in theyr armes and vpon their shoulders Let the Brownists alone who as if they were ayrie spirits disburthened of all lumpe of the flesh mount vp aloft and leaue poore heauie loden sinners crawling vppon the earth The other argument by which I prooue them to maintaine Heresie in this their second accusation is this Whosoeuer maketh the stablenesse of Gods couenant towards his people and with his Church to depend vppon the works of men he mayntayneth flat Heresie for albeit the words of the Couenant be these I will be your God and you shall be my people which implyeth a true sanctification required to glorifie God and to be thankfull yet the Couenant is wholly and altogether of mercie yea euen of the riches of his frée grace who hath promised and sworne vnto vs to declare the stablenesse of his counsell that we might haue strong consolation Hebrewes 6. vers 17. We are saued by grace and not by works Tit. 3. As the Couenant was made vnto Dauid in some particular so was it to Abraham and his séede in generall Then thus it is written I will make him my first borne higher then the Kings of the earth I will keepe my mercy for him for euer and my couenant with him shall be stable I will set his seed for euer and his throne as the daies of heauen If his children shall forsake my lawe and not walke in my iudgements If they shall prophane my Statutes and not obserue my commaundements I will visite their defection with the rod their iniquitie with plagues But I will not disanull my mercy towards him nor falsifie my faith I wil not prophane my couenāt nor alter the thing which is gone out of my lips I haue once sworne by my holines I wil not lie vnto Dauid Psal 89. v. 28. If the couenant made with Abraham and his séede did not stand after the same sort stablished vppon the frée promise of grace and vppon the oath of God how could it be said after all the defections and rebellions of the Churche of Israell reckoned vp and after hée had chastised them that hée remembred his couenant with them and he repented through the multitude of his compassions if it be sayd they repented and so returned agayne into couenant with him and obteyned mercie I answere they repent not but by his mercie and grace which he bestowed vpon them because they were within his couenant Now the Brownists in affirming that by open grosse sinne committed by any if they remayne still in the Church the couenant is not only disanulled to them but vnto all that doo communicate with them and so make the stablenesse of Gods couenant not to depend vpon mercie and frée grace promised and bound with an oth but vppon our works yea and in a more tickle estate euen vppon the woorkes of other whome we must iudge Therefore the Brownists mayntayne verie wicked heresie when they crye out that those assemblyes where any open sinners are not cast foorth they be no longer the true Church of God but the Couenant is disanulled with them
preheminence among them receiueth vs not Therefore if I come I will declare his deeds railing at vs with malitions words and not content therewith neither he himselfe receiueth not the brethren and them that would he forbiddeth casteth them out of the church ver 9. 10. Dooth S. Iohn tell the Christians that this tyrannous oppression by Diotrephes did make them to be no longer Christes Church which remained vnder him Did he will them to seperate themselues and not to obey him any longer in any thing Our Sauiour saith the time will come that they shall excommunicate yée Iohn 16. ver 2. Antichrist himselfe sitting in the Temple of God seduced the reprobate but could not destroy the Church which yet he did gréeuously oppresse and kéepe in some bondage Whereby it appeareth that Solomon speaketh of that which should fall out often and be euen as it were the lot of the Church to be iniuried oppressed and kept in some outward bondage euen by those at whose hands she should finde most comfort holding the places of Pastors and Gouernours as we haue séene in the Church of Israell before our Sauiour came at the time he liued and also in the Church vnder the Gospell You bring in diuerse scriptures which prooue as you imagine that an outward oppression of the Church in externall gouernment dooth make an vtter deuorse betwixt her and Christ but he that considereth those things which I haue before noted and the sundry oppressions of the Church by her Pastors shall easily perceiue that Anabaptisticall fréedome which yée glory of For howsoeuer the Church with her Children are frée with God and receiue no yoake vpon their faith and conscience yet in outward things they may be oppressed You could abide well enough that phrase of spéech oppressed but to say the Church of Christ may be in anye bondage yée terme a blasphemous error Because bondage yée say is the badge of Antichrist the marke of the Beast c. Take héede of the saying that is written 2. Pet. 2. ver 19. That the seducers promise libertie and are themselues the bend seruants of corruption For you imagine and glorye of such a full and perfect libertie as that yée account it a blasphemous error to say the Church may be oppressed with outward bondage It is strange that there should be such a bolde spirite in rotten flesh as flatly to contrary the spirit of God For the Lord sayd to Abraham Thy seede shall bee in bondage and they shall oppresse them But the nation whom they shall serue will I Iudge Genes 15. He saith he brought them out of the house of bondage or of bond men Exodus 20. Will ye affirme that the Church was not oppressed with outward bondage in Egypt will ye deny that they were led captiue and held in outward bondage in Babilon cannot this word bondage which the holy Ghost vseth be allowed of yée must bondage of necessity be the badge and marke of Antichrist when the Lord threatneth by his Prophets that his people should go into captiuity and that there should be a yoake of bondage layd vpon them dooth he giue them ouer to weare the badge of Antichrist or so to be seruants vnto men that they could not also be his seruants Indéed the Anabaptists do holde that wee cannot be seruants vnto men in any outward bondage yet be the seruants of Christ grounding their heresie vpō the places which you alledge If all maner of bondage be the marke of the beast and the badge of Antichrist and a loosing of Christian liberty as you and the Anabaptists would haue it then how could S. Paul say Art thou a bond man care not thou art the Lords free man 1. Cor. 7 Let no man suppose that I charge ye ouer hardly with this grosse point of Anabaptistrie because our question is about Church gouernment and I speake of ciuill bondage for ye speake generally of outward bondage and denie that it can be the lot of the Church or of any member therof The worde bondage though it be outward cannot in anye sense be allowed by you to agrée with your fréedom Now for the places in the song My mothers sonnes were angrye with me they set me to keepe the Vines mine owne Vine I haue not kept In this place the Church willeth first y t they should not looke scornefully vpon her because she is somwhat blacke Then she sheweth that it is not her natiue colour but she is sunne burnt the sunne saith she hath looked vpon me There followeth the occasion that her mothers sonnes were angrye with her set her to kéepe the Vines Who these be whome she calleth her mothers sonnes is the greatest difficultie to finde Tremellius whose interpretation in that point ye follow doth expound it of originall sinne the lusts which she hath frō the wombe other take it more fitly of false brethrē which boast thēselues to be true worshipers children of the church which she calleth her mothers sonnes because they descended frō the ancient mother church were the degenerate children of holy forefathers for I take it somwhat hard to cal sins or concupiscences her mothers sons But take it whether way ye wil either of original sin concupiscences or of degenerate children among whom there were many euen of the Pastors gouernors yet ye cannot auoid but y t there is a violence an oppression some bondage for she saith they set her to kéep the vineyards Howsoeuer you would slily insinuate that it were but negligence that when she repenteth she is so cléered that she is in no bondage vnto sinne at all But when ye haue cauilled what ye can it standeth cléere by the scriptures y t the Church in her perfectest repentance euen with all her children is held in some spirituall bondage vnto sin but yet she is not obstinat I grant for she hateth the euil she doth laboureth against it I doe not gather from this that the Church either did or may kéepe Antichrists Vine as you demaund what a bolde falsifiyng of the place this is But I saye what a bolde impudencie is this in you so to falsifie my wordes For I alledge it to prooue that the Church is subiect to bee oppressed bable so much of Antichrist and his yoake Then let hym prooue that euery error abuse and great fault in discipline doth ouerturne it and make it become Antichristian yea Antichrists yoake so farre as to make it no Church which is subiect to such oppression It is most cléere that a Church may erre in sundrie poynts of Doctrine and not be Antichristian but the true Spouse of Christ And an error in Doctrine if it be foule doth approch néerer towards the ouerthrowe of faith then an error or an abuse in externall gouernment Moreouer if the execution of discipline by Byshops be the yoake of Antichrist and if all the Churches which doo stande vnder the same doo worship the Beast
generally stande in England and come after vnto those former articles which conteine your association wherein ye conioyne your selues and enter into couenant with God as ye say to set vp all the ordinances of Christ for I take this to bee the fittest order Your syxt article which now must be first being expressed in these words And now that our forsaking and vtter abandoning these disordered assemblies as they generally stand in England may not seeme strange or offensiue to anye man that will iudge or be iudged by the word of God we alledge and affirme them heinouslie faultie and wilfullie obstinate in these foure principall transgressions To this I answered That Elias did sée outward idolatrie practised and saw none which did mislike and therefore complained of all It was an error but whereas Gods word is imbraced and multitudes abhorre Idolatrie and labour with sorrowfull teares to bee purged from their sinnes it is an intollerable pride and presumption of men to set themselues in Gods iudgement seat and to condemne all of wilfull obstinacie Let it be shewed where euer any led by Gods spirit haue dealt in this sort and especially in charging them most falslie as shall appeare The Brownists HEre you verye vehemently charge vs with vntollerable pride presumption and intrusion into Gods iudgment seate to be voide of Gods spirite to charge and condemne you most falsely as you say shall appeare How iustly you charge vs with these crimes or discharge your selfe and your assemblies of these present transgessions vpon the scanne of your answeres shall appeare c. G. G. All such as take vpon them to iudge and condemne whole assemblies that professe the Gospell and that with slanderous accusations as you do may right well be charged with intollerable pride presumption and intrusion into Gods iudgement seate séeing the Scriptures do cleerely warrant it For he that iudgeth one man to be no true Christian which holdeth the place of a brother and laboureth to please God professing the faith soundly in all fundamentall points either for some errors in iudgement or frailties committed in life proudlye aduanceth himselfe into Gods office who alone searcheth the heart and trieth the raines of the children of men What shall we say then of those which condemne whole multitudes amongst whom there be many vnspotted with grose errors and offenses But the ground of your dooing is from hence that such as commit principall transgressions and be wilfullye obstinate in the same the word of God dooth condemne them And then yée say that the assemblies in England be heinously faulty and wilfully obstinate in foure principall transgressions Ye boldly alledge and affirme but ye make proofe neither of the transgressions nor of the wilfull obstinacie Touching the transgressions what meane ye by principall If yée vnderstand great faults and grosse errors and holde withall that there is no faith nor regeneration among those which erre grosely commit great faults ye maintaine heresie which is conuinced by infinit places and examples of the Scriptures The best that euer were did know but in part 1. Cor. 13. The godliest were regenerate but in part Rom. 7. Of the strongest it was said who can tell his errors Psal 19. and in manye things we sinne all Iam. 3. If Noah Abraham Lot Dauid Solomon Samson and other holy men greatly replenished with the holy Ghost and with faithe did sometime fall into great sinnes howe many will be the errors the diuisions the frailties and offenses among the multitude in the church where with the stronger and such as haue the greater knowledge and godlinesse there are heaped vp together multitudes of weake and such as be carnall and but babes in Christ besides hipocrites and countersait brethren If by principall transgressions ye meane onely such as be fundamentall then ye doo most falsely accuse the Church of England which holdeth not any heresie or blasphemie against any one ground or principle of the holy Christian faith Yée must then either mainteine this heresie which is that where the true faith is there can breake foorth no great faults errors and abuses or this absurd manner of spéech which afterward yée vse that all errors and deformities in religion be heresies blasphemies and abhominations or els confesse that with intollerable pride presumption and intrusion into Gods iudgement seate yée haue taken vpon yée to iudge and condemne whole assemblies which professe the faith of Christ sincerely in all fundamentall points among whom there be many particular persons which study earnestly to please God mourning for their owne sinnes and are like iust Lot 2. Pet. ◠vexed and tormented to behold the wickednesse of others And now touching wilfull obstinacie how will yée prooue that to be in all the assemblies and in all members of the assemblies of England If ye say there be apparant transgressions in which they continue and therefore they be wilfully obstinate and so to be vtterly abandoned I answer that your conclusion doth not follow because the continuance in all sorts of errors and offenses in such as professe the faith doth not warrant men vtterly to cast them out as Heathen but where after admonition and conuiction the censure of the Church is despised The rule of discipline giuen by our Sauiour Christ maketh this verye cléere If thy brother sinne against thée tell him of it betwéene him and thée alone If he heare thée thou hast wunne thy brother if he heare thée not take one or two with thee that by the mouth of two or thrée witnesses euery word may be confirmed If he heare not them tell it to the Church if he heare not the Church let him be as an Heathen or as a Publican Math. 18. We sée that priuate members may not vtterly abandon and cast foorth any one brother that is one which professeth the true faith and for his profession hath the place and dignitie of a Christian nor iudge him so wilfully obstinate that he must be accounted as an Heathen vntill the Church haue so iudged and cast him foorth The same orderly course and rule of discipline is to be obserued in admonishing accusing conuincing condemning and vtter abandoning any particuler assembly which hath the dignity of a Christian church and doth offend so gréeuously and shew such obstinacie that it deserueth so heauy a censure In a particular Church there be errors and sinnes I will not saye in many but in all in as much as euery one hath his blindnesse and corruption erreth and sinneth continuallye one waye or other From hence it commeth that of necessitie there be alwaies in the Church diuersities of opinions discord diuision and dissention with many corruptions and abuses For if it be most manifest that the learnedest and godliest that liueth doth carrie with him his errors defects and corruptions what shal we looke for where the multitude is of learned vnlearned strong and weake altogether how innumerable will the frailties and corruptions now among all be
the Pastour doth keepe backe some for ignorance c. Heere you confesse that very many Churches in England want godly Pastours and that there all are admitted and that he that admitteth them is the worste of the company Thus you make the most Chuches in England in a very bad estate and so farre foorth you affirme your article But yet you know some Churches c. I did confesse and doo still with gréefe that in very manye assemblies in England all are admitted to the Table of the Lord which offer themselues euen the most prophane and grosse sinners I shewed also the reason of this gréeuous offence namely that the ministers which should repell such open offenders are many times the worst or at least negligent in that behalfe And moreouer that the Church of England dooth neither approoue such admission of prophane men to the Sacrament nor yet suffer it in practise wholy For touching practise there be many congregations in the land where sundrie for ignorance and open wickednesse are by the ministers kept backe and not suffered to communicate vntill they shew repentance And for not approouing such admission I said the booke of Common prayer dooth prescribe and commaund the repelling of notorious wicked offendours and also that some are excommunicated iustly not admitted to publike praier This was the first part of mine answer wherein I prooue your accusation false The other is that the godly are not polluted by the companye of the wicked which are suffered to communicate with them in Gods worship and the thing not in their power to redresse And for example I alledged the Church of the Iewes By which I prooue that if your accusation were true yet it destroyeth not the Church Now let vs examine how you ouerthrowe this by your replye Yée aske whether there were no more prophane in the parish besides those twenty or thirty which are repelled And whether those other prophane were not admitted I answer If there were yet the repelling of twenty or thirty in a flock dooth shew that you accuse falsely when yée say all the prophane without exception of any one person are reteined in the body and bosome of our Church But to prooue your article at once as yée say by a more direct course yée bring an argument And yée demand if I know anye in all the realme of England vnbaptized Is not Baptisme say you a Sacrament belonging to the Church by which all the faithfull and their séed doo enter into it Wherevpon yée argue thus All being baptized it followeth that all are receiued into the body of your Church Now being once receiued in they can no way be cast out but by excommunication And it is manifest that the Parson and all his parish hath not the powre which Christ hath left vnto his Church to excommunicate any offender be he neuer so obstinate or notorious c. This being the onely reason by which ye stand to prooue the truth of your accusation I must bestow the more paines about it Thus it must be set in forme Where all are receiued in by Baptisme and no power to cast foorth any by excommunication there all the prophane multitudes are without exception of any one person receiued into reteined in the bosome and body of the Church But in the Church of England all are receiued in by Baptisme and there is no power to cast foorth any by excommunication Therefore in England all the prophane multitudes without exception of any one person are receiued into and reteined in the bosome and body of the Church In your proposition there are to be excepted such as are repelled from the Sacrament who are in some sort for the time remooued out of the bosome of the Church And also such Papists Heretikes and Scismatikes as depart out of themselues It is further also to be considered in it that all the baptized continuing outwardly obedient they cannot be iustly called the prophane multitudes Your presumption in which ye charge the Church of England with a principall transgression for receiuing in all by Baptisme and hauing no power to cast foorth any by Excommunication is with foule error and falsehood Touching the Baptisme of Infants this appeareth to be your iudgement that the children of prophane men which remayne in the Church and professe the faith of Christ belong not to the couenant and therefore ought not to be Baptised No doubt the Church doth offend when open notorious sinners are not Excommunicate and brought to repentance or at the least to such a shewe of repentance as that men can not further iudge them but as Brethren It is also an offence where such not being cast foorth their children are receyued vnto Baptisme and that without care to sée them brought vp and instructed in the Christian Religion and to leade a Godly life agréeable to the same But to say that the children of prophane men taking prophane men as you doo which professe Christianitie and remayne in the Church are not to be Baptised is a very wicked iniurie to Gods people and contrarie to the manifest doctrine of the holie Scriptures and can not without Heresie be mayntayned First touching prophane people it is certayne that all Heathen Heretikes all Scismatikes open contemners of the holie Religion and all obstinate wicked men whiche despise the censure of the Church that hath passed vppon them may be called prophane But you Brownists go further and condemne them all as Infidels and prophane which professe the faith of Christ because notwithstanding they doo it in some weakenes and infirmities which is a wicked presumption and intrusion into Gods seate and in which as I haue shewed before yée breake the rule of discipline giuen by our Sauiour Christ by which no brother that is none which professeth the true faith is for his sinnes and impenitencie to be iudged as heathen vntill he haue despised the admonition of the Church and so be cast foorth You take vppon yée to plucke vp all the Darnell yée are commaunded the contrarie least yée plucke vp the Wheate Math. 13. You dare and that in most sauage and desperate manner rend and teare vp the weake plants yée doo it vnto whole assemblyes in which there be many that vnfaynedly sorrow and mourne for their sinnes and studie to please God all that feare the Lord may tremble at this your intollerable wickednes But now to procéede Ye will not allowe the children of prophane men the Sacrament of Baptisme And what is your reason they bée not the séede of the faithfull In déede in this yée say true that none are in theyr infancie to be admitted to this Sacrament but the séede of the faithfull but when yée take it that the children whose next parents are hypocrites or wicked and prophane persons which yet remayne in the Church and professe Christ be not the séede of the faithfull at all and in any respect and so within the couenant and to be baptized
doo offend in not executing the discipline vpon vngodly men to bring them to repentance but in receiuing their children to be baptized they doo not offend so they sée them taught in the faith and to liue a godlye life as our Church hath established yea in refusing them the infants should receiue great iniurie But to make this matter yet more cléere the question is to be answered whether the Church of Rome be the Church of Christ For the Brownists doo hold that our auncestors were not the Church of Christ in the time of poperie and that we now are confused multitudes not rightlye entered into couenant with God to become a Church séeing wee were not of Gods true Church before neither orderly entered into couenant Indéed if we were not within the couenant before from our auncestors nor entered orderly to become a Church the matter would séeme strong against vs. Let it therefore be examined I know this is the vsuall spéech of the learnedest Deuines the church of God is in the Papacie but the Papacie is not the church And it may be the sense will differ little or nothing but I take it a fitter spéech to saye the Papacie is in the church then to say the church is in the papacie For Antichrist dooth sit in the Temple of God his lawes his worship and all his abhominations were brought into the church All the men which receiued his marke and worshipped him were in the church yea euen the whole Apostasie was in the churche The church was before and that commeth after and entreth into or ariseth in it Then to the question if by the church of Rome we vnderstand the Pope his lawes his worship which hath béene deuised by himselfe his adherents and all that worship him or receiue his Marke I answer that this is that which may properly be called the church of Rome which is the papacie the apostasie and seduced to damnation and not the church of Christ otherwise then thus that the Pope the Cardinals and all that worship the Beast be false Christians by profession bred in the Church and continuing in it their séede not excluded from the couenant But if by the Church of Rome we vnderstand all those companies of people ouer whome the tyrannie of the Pope hath heeretofore extended it selfe or dooth at this day or those things which were giuen by Christ which remaine in the same I say this is not the church of Rome but the Church of God First if we respect the holye doctrine of God in all those points which were and are kept sound among them and the holye Sacrament of Baptisme Then secondly if we consider the kingdoms and people themselues all did not fall from Christ but many held the foundation the most of them lying scattered and hid in the desolations and ruines Thirdly if we regard that the infants not only of these faithfull but euen of the wicked Apostates which worshipped the beast were still within the couenant as the holy séed we shall see that the papacie was and is in the Church which is the Temple of God and not the synagog of Rome The Church of Rome then is not the true Church of God but the Church of Rome is the Apostasie in the church Let vs come then more particularly The church of England in the time of poperie was a member of the vniuersall church and had not the being of a church of Christ from Rome nor tooke not her beginning of being a Church by seperating hir selfe from that Romish synagog but hauing her spirites reuiued and her eyes opened by the light of the heauenly word did cast foorth that tyrannie of Antichrist with his abhominable idolatrie heresies and false worship and sought to bring all her children vnto the right faith and true seruice of God And so is a purer and more faithfull church then before Idolatrie was openly set vp in the church of Israel at sundrye times It did not as I haue shewed disanull the couenant of God with them nor debarre their children from the holy signe of circumcision but all the Iewes are called the children of the couenant Then let the Brownist shew some reason why it should bee otherwise in this case with our churches then it was with the church of Israel Thus much for the one part of your assumption wherein ye blame the church of England for receiuing in all by baptisme Now touching the other part of it in which ye affirme that there is no power to cast foorth any by excommunication yée speake very falsely For the church of England hath some power to excommunicate But you reason thus the person and all his parish hath not the power to excommunicate anye one offendor therefore the church of England hath not powre to excommunicate Is it possible if a man would study to reason absurdlie that he should excell yée Will yee argue thus euery seuerall part by it selfe hath not power to excommunicate therefore the whole together hath not the power It is not méete indéed that the Parson and his parish should haue the power to excommunicate vnlesse it bee such a Parish as hath the Consistorie of Pastors Teachers and Gouernours It séemeth yée haue great skill in the discipline of Christ The seuerall flockes about Geneua without the Citie haue euery one a Pastor and two Elders but yet they haue not the power to excommunicate but that is referred to the Consisiorie which is within the Citie Maister Beza Epist 20. Will yée say those seuerall flockes cannot be the Churches of Christ vnlesse their pastors and they together haue power to excommunicate They are members of that church which hath power to excommunicate But yée will say that the excommunication of the Commissarie is no excommunication and therfore our parishes be no members of a church which hath power to excommunicate The like yée will say of the excommunication by the Bishop himselfe and by the Archdeacon I aunswer that if it should bée graunted ye that their excommunication dooth not binde in heauen yet it is of force to remooue and dooth remooue from the societye of our assemblies which prooueth your accusation false because we reason about this outward remoouing But what if the Bishop together with sundry other Ministers of the Gospell doo excommunicate duely an obstinate wicked man is he not excommunicate before God If there be an heretike conuinced and found obstinate and the Bishops and Ministers of the Church of England assembled or some competent number of them as in the conuocation or such synod do duely excommunicate him is it no excommunication Will yée reason after this sort that because euery Minister with his flocke seuerally hath not the power to excommunicate therefore the Ministers of the Church of England are vtterly without this power You confesse that it is the Church of Christ which hath this power though it fault much by negligence in executing the same I would all Brownists could