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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A06347	An excellent and plaine discourse of the church, whereby the godlie may knowe and discerne the true Church, from the Romish Church, and all other false and counterfet churches, as well for matters of doctrine, as discipline, &c. Written in Frenche by M. Bartrand de Loque, a godlie minister of Dolphenine. And faithfully translated into English, by M.T.W. Seene and allowed; Traité de l'eglise. English	Loque, Bertrand de.; T. W. (Thomas Wilcox), 1549?-1608.	1582 (1582)	STC 16813; ESTC S103377	172,896	422

An excellent and plaine Discourse of the CHVRCH whereby the Godlie may knowe and discerne the true Church from the Romish Church and all other false and counterfet Churches as well for matters of doctrine as Discipline c. Written in Frenche by M. Bartrand de Loque a godlie Minister of Dolphenine And faithfully translated into English by M.T.W. SEENE AND ALLOWED Jmprinted at London for Thomas Man 1582. ¶ The summe of the Chapters conteined in this present Treatise Chapter 1 TOuching the diuers significations and takinges of this worde Church and how the Churche is commonlie distinguished Pag. 1. Chap. 2. Of the Catholik vniuersall Church which is one although there be diuers particulers thereof Pag. 7. Chap. 3. Of the visible Church and of the true marks thereof Pag. 14 Chap. 4. Whether the true markes of the Churche are to bee found amongest the Romish Catholikes Pag. 19. Chap. 5. Of the calling succession of pastors Pa. 24. Chap. 6. That the Church hath alwaies been from the beginning of the worlde is and shal be vnto the end thereof but yet the Churche must not bee regarded or acknowledged for the great numbers sake Pag. 55. Chap. 7. That Iesus Christe alone is the head of the Churche and not Saint Peter neither any Pope Pag. 68. Chap. 8. Whether the Church of Rome be the true and Catholike Church and whether wee doe well to withdrawe or separate our selues from it Pag. 102. Chap. 9. Touching the degrees of Ministers in the Church where also speeche is had of the orders of the Popes Cleargie and of the office and dueties of true Pastors Pag. 128. Chap. 10. Whether the ministerie of the word be alwaies necessary in the Church and howe muche men may attribute or giue thereto Pag. 160. Chap. 11. Of the sanctifie or holinesse of the Churche Pag. 184. Chap. 12. Whether the Churche may erre Pag. 197. Chap. 13. Whether the Church bee aboue the holy scripture that is to say whether the holy scripture depend on the iudgement and authoritie of the Church Pag. 213. Chap. 14. Of the Discipline of the Church Pag. 234. Chap. 15. Whether it belonge to the Churche to make lawes and if shee make some howe far the faithfull ought to obey her Pag. 25● Chap. 16. Concerning the afflictions and persecutions of the Church Pag. 274. ¶ To the most noble Lorde my Lorde Henrie de la Tour Vicount of Turenne Countie of Monfert Baron of Mongacon Oriergues Bonsolz Fey Seruissac Croc c. Captaine of fiue hundred men at armes of the kings armies MY Lorde Lactan. lib. 4 de vera sapient cap. 30. Lactantius hath very properly and fitly called the Church the fountaine of trueth the house and dwelling place of faith and the Temple of God adioyning withall that if there bee any whiche entreth not into this Temple or if there bee any that goe out thereof hee is shut out from the hope of life and from eternall saluation For euen as in the time of the vniuersall flood none could bee saued whiche were out of Noe his Arke Gene. 7.20.23 so without the Churche there is neither hope nor faith nor grace nor saluation Whiche thing also the Apostle Saint Paul did verie well declare and meane when beeing purposed to excommunicate some and to caste them out of the Churche 2. Cor. 5 3.5 1. Tim. 1.20 hee saide hee muste deliuer them vnto Satan For as Iesus Christ reigneth in the Churche so Satan reigneth without the same and as they whiche are in the Church hauing Iesus Christe for their head are in very good state blessed so they which are out of the Churche hauing the Diuell for their head cannot but be wicked and accursed And therfore it is said both in Isaiah in Ioel That in Sion and in Ierusalem there shal be saluation Isaia 46.13 Ioel. 2.32 There being meant by Syon and Ierusalem the Church of God as also by the worde heauen there is meant the same thing in the Apocalips when S. Iohn saith I hearde a great and lowde voice Reue. 12.10 saying Nowe is saluation in heauen On the other side wee reade that when God declareth that hee will vtterly roote out some from the heauenly life hee denounceth against them and threateneth Ezech. 13.9 That they shall not be in the counsell assemblie of his people neither written in the role of his seruantes And Dauid very well knewe and felt this when sometimes being in exile all griefes and aduersities were vnto him tollerable and as a man woulde say easie to beate excepting this that hee was depriued of and wanted the solemne assemblies wherein men made publike declaration and protestation of Gods religion and seruice Wherefore be wailing his condition because hee was excluded from the visible Churche hee beeing also shut out from accesse or comming to the Tabernacle by the crueltie and tyrannie of his enemies hee cryed out earnestly and saide O Lord of hostes how amiable are thy Tabernacles Psalm 84.1.2.4.10 My soule longeth yea fainteth for the courtes of the Lorde for my hearte and my fleshe leape for ioy in the liuing God And a little after Blessed are they which dwell in thy house they will euer prayse thee For a day in thy courtes is better then a thousand other wheis I had rather bee a doore keeper in the house of my God then to dwell in the Tabernacles of the wicked For thereby hee hath declared that the condition of those men which bestowe their life yea although it were but a day long in the seruice of God in the middest of the Church among faithfull people is farre more blessed then theirs who liue though it were neuer so long out of Gods house and in the midst of those out of whose companie their religion is banished To which purpose also belongeth that which the same Prophete singeth in an other Psalme Psalm 27.4 One thing haue I desired of the Lorde that I will require euen that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the dayes of my life to behold the beautie of the Lorde and to visit his Temple And againe when hee saith Psal 106.45 Remember or haue mercie on mee O Lorde with the fauour and good will of the people and visite mee with thy saluation That I may set the good thinges of thy chosen ones and reioyce in the ioy of thy people and glory with thine inheritaunce And for this verie cause and occasion the Apostle to the Hebrwes commendeth praiseth Moses Heb. 11.24.25 when hee saith That by faith hee beeing come to age refused to bee called the sonne of Pharaoh his daughter chosing rather to suffer aduersitie with the people of God then to inioy the pleasures of sinne for a short season Wherefore if wee woulde that GOD shoulde gouerne vs by his holy spirite to the ende to make vs inioy and possesse his spirituall and heauenly good thinges

or seruitour In whiche sense S. Paule calleth the Magistrate the Deacon of god that is to say Rom. 13.4 Ephe. 3. 7. Rom. 15.8 the seruant or minister of God and he nameth himselfe the Deacon that is to say the minister of the Gospell as also hee calleth Iesus Christ the Deacon of circumcision that is to say the minister thereof Wherefore being so taken and referred to the estate calling of the Pastor it is commonly translated and turned by this worde minister or seruant as in the first Chapter of the Epistle to the Collossians and the third chapter of the first Epistle to the Corinthians Colos 1.7 1. Cor. 3.5 But sometimes it is taken more straitly for thē which haue a charge and office to gather the almes to dispense or bestow them among the poore The first occasion that was giuen to chose these Deacons in the Church was this because the Apostles could not very well prouide for or furnish both the charge of preaching the woorde and of distributing the goods of the poore And for this cause were the seuen Deacons chosen of whom is spoken Acts. 6. Acts. 6.2 And the conditions and qualities which ought to be in the Deacons that men will chose are there described and set out and also in the third Chapter of the first Epistle to Timothie 1. Tim. 3.8 c. These are the degrees of the Churche or ecclesiastical orders which Iesus Christ him selfe set vp and his Apostles after him established for the regiment and gouernment of the Church which order was afterwards in the Popedome by litle and litle not onely corrupted but vtterly ouerthrowne For in that tyrannous kingdom after that corruption had once craftily ouertaken or stolne vppon the doctrine of the Churche they deuised and forged a stewardship dispensation and bestowing of ecclesiasticall offices and charges which was altogether farre off and estraunged from the former simplicitie and plainenes whereof we haue spoken Wherin first they made a sacramēt without the warrant of Gods worde of the orders and degrees of ministers Afterwardes they deuised a certaine kinde of creame or oyle to annoint them as they say but in deede it is to grease or smeare them fetching that through a false zeale from Aaron and that which was done in olde time vnder the lawe And also shauing or shearing specially of the crowne of the head against the custome both of the Apostles Act. 18.18 and of the primitiue Church It is true in deede that Saint Paule did once cause his heade to bee shorne in Cenchrea after the maner of the Iewes but it was by reason of a vowe which hee had made and not that hee was then ordeined into some ministerie but a great while after his calling And in that hee caused himselfe to bee shorne he did it not for any other purpose but to applye himselfe thereby to the Iewes who were as yet very rude not wel instructed as he himselfe protesteth in the Epistle to the Corinthians 1. Cor. 9.20 That of his owne accord willingly he became vnder the law although he were deliuered there from to the end he might winne the Iewes Orders of the Romishe church Next they established or made seuē orders of the church the first Porters or doore keepers the second Readers the thirde Exorcistes or in plaine english Coniurers who as they faine had power giuen them to lay their hands vpon madde men and men possessed with diuels and to heale them the fourth Acoluthes that is to say followers who wayted vpon the Bishop in his householde seruices and did continually accompanie him first for honours sake and then that no suspition shoulde aryse of them the fifth Subdeacons or vnderdeacons the sixt Deacons and the seuenth Priestes of which last sort they haue made many degrees whereof they call some simple or single Chaplaines Others Curates and Vicars others Bishops others Archbishops or Metropolitanes other some Cardinals And afterwarde they came to the foure Patriarches and lastly to the Pope himselfe But from whence commeth this goodly hierarchie or order of Pristes who hath established it and set it in nature or being Did Iesus Christ or his Apostles the scripture maketh no mentiō therof But let vs discourse a little vppon the fountaine and beginning of these goodly degrees I say and meane onely of those whiche they conteyne vnder the name Priest For the others keepe not the place of true Bishops and Pastors of the Church as these woulde seeme to doe And yet notwithstanding hee that will heare speeche thereof Theo. Beza lib. confes Punct 7. ca. 11. let him reade the confession of Theodorus Beza As concerning Chaplaines Durandus in his booke called Rationale diuinorum offic alleadgeth two reasons to shew why priests were so called The one is because the kings of Fraunce in time heretofore when they went to warre were wont to carrie with them Saint Martins cappe or hoode which they kept vnder a tent which of the cap kept in it was named Capella that is Chappel and the Clerkes or Priests that had the keeping of this Chappell were called Chaplaines and afterwardes in continuance of time this name was in some countries giuen generally to all priestes And these little Cabbines or corners or rather high places which were in the popish temples wherein the Chaplaines saide their masses were called chappels The other reason is that when in olde time there were set out an armie or to doe some exploite by souldiers they had in the campe certaine speciall tents to say masse in which tentes were couered ouer with goates skines Now a goate in latine is called Capra or Capella that is to say according to the portuise of the priestes which are at this day Chappell Wherefore because these tents were couered with goates skinnes they were named Chappelles and the priestes which had the keeping of them and who did therein sing their masses were called Chaplaines Beholde verilie two reasons to shew from whence this name Chaplaine is taken which reasons are very high full of great speculation or insight conteining verie great mysteries and such as are meruelously deepe but we leaue thē to bee meditated or loked into diligētly to the priests which are the Popes Chaplaines to the end that they should aduise and take counsell to see whether they can be willing that their reuerende name shoulde bee fet and drawen from these base beginnings Curates Curates haue another fountaine In old time according to the order established by Iesus Christ the Pastours were ordeined placed distinctly and without confusion in seuerall Churches For to the end that euerie Pastor might knowe his owne charge and bee able to yeelde a better account of his flocke and that one shoulde not any whit at al incroch vpon or intermedle with others also to the ende that the flocke and sheepe might knowe where they might seeke for and find their owne pastors they

might be glorified Isaiah 61.3 Isai 61.3 Moreouer this Church notwithstanding the sharpe and harde persecutions which it hath suffered hath not yet ceassed alwayes to bee as it is at this present and shall be vnto the worldes ende For as Dauid sayth The Lorde hath chosen Sion that is to say Psal 132.13 c. the Church and hath desired it for his seat ●it hath been saith he my rest for euer Iesus Christe also hath promised his disciples Mat. 28.20 to bee with them alwayes euen vnto the ende of the worlde But chiefly Saint Paule hath declared and sette out the perpetuitie and continuaunce of the Church when hee assureth vs Ephes 3.21 that GOD shall be glorified in the Church through Iesus Christ throughout all generations for euer and euer They then are ouermuch past shame whiche limitte the continuance of the Churche to a certayne tyme Aug. de ciui tat Dei lib. 18. ca. 54 as those of whome Saint Augustine speaketh who durst boldely affirme that the christian religion should not last but 365. yeares They likewise doe abuse and deceiue themselues which thinke that by the assaultes which they giue vnto the Church they are able to beate it downe consume it wholy take it away out of the worlde For is it possible that God should be without a Church Psal 10. 1 c. hath not he himselfe promised that his sonne shall raigne and beare rule for euer ouer all his enimies Verily the Church which is the spouse or wife of Christ is become or made so mightie and stronge through her husbande that being euen one bodie with him she is more forcible and mightie in her weakenesse then al the world in his pride and hautines But as we haue alreadie saide once heretofore we will hereafter speake more amplie and largely of the Churches force and power in persecutions To bee shorte amongest so manye and so diuerse chaunges of the kingdomes of this worlde God alwayes preserueth his Churche and bringeth to passe that nothing in all the worlde is durable and perpetuall but shee not that shee is alwayes florishing or hath a continuance which followeth all by one threede that is commeth altogether but because that God not minding that his name should be put out in the worlde doeth alwayes in his Churche raise vp some of whome hee is sincerely and purely serued Nowe when the question is to discerne the true Church from the false some there are that stay themselues vpō the multitude and great number But they are very farre from their right reckoning or account For GOD measureth not his Church by the number He loueth his faithfull people and keepeth himselfe in the middest of them Mat. 18.20 although they be a verie small number on the other side he hateth those that doe dispise it and disdayneth them though the number of them be neuer so great And indeede on the side of the multitude and great number the false and bastardly Church is rather founde than the true and lawfull one And that it is so let vs first mark the places of scripture which withdrawe vs from the multitude and teach vs to stay cleaue to the little flocke Thou shalt not followe a multitude to doe euill Exod. 23.2 Mat. 7.13.14 neither agree in a controuersie to decline after many and to ouerthrowe the trueth Enter in at the straite Gate for it is the wide gate and broad way which leadeth to destruction many therebe which go in thereat because the gate is strait and the way narrowe that leadeth vnto life and fewe there bee that finde it Feare not little flocke Luke 12.32 for it is your fathers pleasure to giue you a kingdome Wee see by these places that the greatest numbr is not alwayes the best neyther the soundest and that the Churche of God is founde rather amongest the small number then among the multitude Secondly let vs note the reasons following which are taken from examples that we finde in the scripture touching this verye matter On which side was the Church Gene. 7.1 Heb. 11.7 when Noah alone with his litle familie whiche was not in all but eight persons followed the true religion God approuing him by his faith condemning all the rest of the worlde On which side was the Churche 1 Kin. 19 10 when Elijah saide O Lord the children of Israel haue forsaken they couenant they haue destroyed thine Altars and slayne thy prophets with the sworde and I am left altogether alone and yet they seeke my soule to take it away On which side was the Church when the foure hundred prophetes deceiued Ahab 1. Kin. 22.8 and Michaiah being alone and contemned did yet notwithstanding resist thē and speake the truth On which side was the Church when Ieremiah was sent from God to say In that day the heart of the king shall perishe Iere. 4.9 and the heart of Princes and of the Priestes shall bee astonished and the Prophetes shall wonder and that therefore the Prophetes resisted him Iere 10.18 layed crimes vnto his charge and imagined mischiefe against him Math. 26.3 On which side was the Church when the chiefe Priestes and scribes and Elders of the people assembled themselues together into the Hall of the high Priest named Caiaphas and helde a Councell how they might take Iesus Christ by subtiltie put him to death Certainly by these examples it is plainely prooued that if it were sufficient to alledge the multitude the greatest number for to vnderproppe and vpholde a Churche the false and bastardly Churche shoulde euer preuaile in the matter and get the better in that respecte because that the number which cleaueth to it and followeth and maintayneth it is alwayes the greatest August in Psal 128. Let vs adde here a sentence of Saint Augustine From the time sayth hee that the Saintes haue begun to be the Church hath beene and is on the earth Somtimes it was in Abel alone who was slaine by his wicked brother Cain Sometime it was in Henoch alone who was reiected of the vngodlie Sometimes it was in the onely house of Noah and he bare with or suffered all them that perished in the floude and the Arke swimming vppon the floudes was saued and set vppon the drie land Sometime in one onely Abraham of whome we knowe thus much that hee suffered many thinges by the wicked Sometimes in Lott alone and in his onely house in the middest of the Sodomites whose iniquities and vngodlinesse he indured and suffered so long till God drewe him as it were by violence from among them Sometimes in the onely Israelites tormented by Pharaoh and the Egyptians By these wordes that appeareth verie well to be true and right which I haue sayd to wit that the Church ought not to be iudged or acknowledged by the great number The faythfull then shoulde not at this daye bee offended though they bee

Wherefore whatsoeuer we shall finde in them conformable and agreeable to the proportion of faith and agreeing with the authoritie of the holy scriptures wee ought to receiue the same without any scruple or doubt But if they propound vnto vs and set out thinges contrarie to that we ought and we may without any difficultie or danger reiect and refuse them as suspected and dangerous doctrines For as Saint Ierome hath sometimes saide Hierō in 9. cap. Ierem. Wee ought not to followe the errors of our fathers and predecessors but the authoritie of the scriptures and the commandement of God Who teacheth vs. Gerson par 1. de exam doctrin Abbas Panormita Epist de electia one elect potest cap. 5. Whereupon also Gerson and Panormitan haue concluded that in matters which concerne faith the Pope and his Bishops may not determine and decree anye thing against the worde of God and that if a generall councell shoulde come so far as to decline and goe aside either through malice or through ignorance of the Gospell a simple man alleadging in that councell the worde of God ought rather to bee heard and yeelded vnto then all they Let vs enter or come nowe to our aduise and let vs bring foorth and alledge our reasons to prooue that the Churche may erre The first reason is this That great companie of the people of Israel which was in the wildernesse with whome GOD had made a couenant and had made them bounde vnto him by an infinite number of benefites and good turnes had giuen vnto them Sacraments and Ceremonies which were as it were visible signes of his grace that great companie I say was a very goodly and a very excellent Churche But they were vilely deceaued and erred fowly when forsaking the commaundement they made vnto themselues a golden calfe offering and giuing vnto it that honor which was due to God alone yea and Aaron himselfe the high priest did not so constantly and boldly withstande them as he ought but rather consented thereto indeede wherefore it followeth that the church may erre and be deceiued The second reason The Church in olde time did offer and giue the holy Supper to little infants staying and grounding themselues vpon the place of Saint Iohn Except yee eate the fleshe of the sonne of Man Iohn 9.15 drinke his blood yee haue no life in you And this custome was in vse in the time of pope Innocent Saint Cyprian and Saint Augustine as it appeareth by their writinges But nowe this is not any more vsed for children whiche can not prooue and examine them selues are not at this day receiued to the partaking of the Sacrament Wherefore the Churche in olde time hath erred or els it erreth now But if we would answere that the Churche hath power and authoritie to chaunge suche customes and manners I replie to the contrarie for now the question is not heere of a thing indifferent in the vse but of the worde of God which is alwayes constant and not subiect to any change as to say that to day it hath one sense and vnderstanding to morrow another wherefore if the place of S. Iohn commaunde to giue the supper to little infants of necessitie as the forenamed ancient fathers haue vnderstood and expounded the same the Church hath ●one well in time heretofore to follow that commandement and at this time it erreth in not following it any longer Or els if the said place be not to be referred properly vnto the holy Supper neither commaundeth to distribute and giue the sacrament to infants but it is of necessitie required that he to whom wee must administer the saide sacrament haue knowledge to trie and examine himselfe according to Saint Paules doctrine 1. Cor. 1.2 as indeede this is the pure and only truth it followeth then that the Churche hath in former time erred to admit little infants to the holy supper and that at this day it doth well to practise the contrary The third reason If the Churche coulde not erre Saint Paule had without cause feared 1. Cor. 11.28 least the Corinthians whome he calleth a Church shoulde through the subtiltie of the serpent bee corrupted 2. Cor. 11.3 and turned away from the simplicitie that is in Christ And indeede in vaine shoulde hee haue called the assemblies of the Corinthians and Galathians Gala. 1.2 Churches which yet notwithstanding erred in doctrine in faith in manners and in life But Saint Paule did nothing of all this without cause or in vaine otherwise Saint Paule himselfe should haue beene deceiued wherefore it followeth that the Churche may erre The fourth reason Those that cannot erre haue no neede of the forgiuenesse of sinnes but the Churche hath neede of the forgiuenes of sinnes for Iesus Christ giuing it a forme of praier hath commanded it to demaund and aske of God Mat. 6.12 forgiuenesse of their sinnes Wherefore it followeth that the Church may erre The fift reason The Church which was in olde time in Ierusalem was oftentimes reproued of error by the Prophetes which thing declareth that the Church is not in this worlde without will and deed to erre But to the end I may not be ouerlong in recyting by peecemeale and as it were one by one all the sentences which make mention of the falles of the Churche let men reade that whiche is written thereof in these places Touching the corruption of the church see Isaiah 1. verse 21. to the 24. verse Isaiah Isaiah 3. ver 8.9 Isaiah 5.13 Isaiah 30. verse 9. to the 13. ver Isaiah 59. ver 2. vnto the 17. ver Isai 64. ver 6.7 Iere. 2 ver 5. Ieremiah to the end of the Chap. Iere. 3. ver 2.3.20 Iere. 4. ver 22. Ieremiah 5. ver 1. vnto the 15. ver and afterwards from the 19. ver to the end of the Chapter Iere. 6. ver 7. vnto the 11. ver Ieremiah 8. ver 4. vnto the 11. ver Ieremiah 9. ver 3. vnto the 17. ver Ieremiah 13. verse 10. vnto the 15. verse Ieremiah 22. euen vnto the end Ieremiah 16. ver 11.12 Ieremiah 18. ver 13. vnto the 18. ver Ezechiel 5. ver 6. vnto the 12. Ezechiel ver Ezechiel 22. ver 3. vnto the end of the Chapter Ezechiel 33. ver 24. vnto the 30. Deutro ver Deuteronomie 32. ver 5.6.32.33 Touching the ingratitude and vnthankfulnesse of the Church see Isaiah 1. ver 2.5 Isaiah Isaiah 5.47 Isaiah 43. ver 21. vnto the end of the chapter Isaiah 17. ver 10.11 Ieremiah Ezechiel Zachariah Deuteron Hosea Isaiah 63. ver 9.10 Ierem. 2. ver 6.9.21.22 Ieremiah 12. ver ● Ezechiel 16. ver 15. vnto the 24. ver Zachariah 11. ver 8. vnto the ende of the Chapter Deuteronomie 32. ver 15.18.23 Hosea 12. ver 1.9 Hosea 13. ver 6. Malachie 1. ver 2.8 Touching the obstinacie and rebellion of the Church Isaiah see Isaiah 1. ver 5. vnto the 7. ver Isaiah ● ver