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A18078 A replye to an ansvvere made of M. Doctor VVhitgifte Against the admonition to the Parliament. By T.C. Cartwright, Thomas, 1535-1603. 1573 (1573) STC 4712; ESTC S120563 333,686 231

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not be husbandmen crafts mē c. yet may haue ciuil offices I thinke far otherwise that although neither be lawfull yet the one were more tollerable then the other For seing after the ministery of the word there is no calling vnder the sunne weightyer and which requireth greater exercise of the mynde then the office of the magistrate it is agaynst all reason to lay this heauy burthen vpon a man that is already loden and hath as much as he is able to beare It were more equall if they will needes adde vnto the weyght of thys burthen to lay some lyghter charge of exercising handy craft then to breake hys backe with the charge of a cyuill magistrate And whereas in the pollicy of M. Doctor it semeth a furtherance to the gospell to ioyne these together which was also the pollicy of the Idolaters as I haue before declared in the wisedome of God it hath semed farre otherwyse which I doubt not dyd therfore separate the ministery from thys pompe whiche is commendable in the cyuill magistrate least the efficacy and power of the simplicitie of the word of God and of the mynistery should be obscured whilest men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto the gospell dew vnto the worde and to the spirite of God to these gloryous shewes And least whylest the mynyster haue the woorde in one hande and the sword in the other men should not be able to iudge so well in their consciences of the mighty operation of the worde of God in them For they might doubt with them selues whether the feare out ward shew of the mynister caryed some stroke with them in beleuing the word But M. Doctor sayeth that cyuill offices are not to be counted worldly affayres but heauenly and spirituall it is so and yet when they are compared with the ecclesiasticall offices they may be called secular offices for so muche as they together with the care of relygion procure and prouide for the things wherby we may quietly and commodiously lyue here where the ecclesiasticall offices are immediatly and only bent to procure the glory of God and the saluation of men and in that signification of heauenly spirituall which you take marchandyse husbandry and the handy craft be heauenly and spyrituall although not in the same degree All lawfull callinges came from God returne to hym agayne that is he is both author of them and they ought to be referred to hys glory so that if the mynister may exercise all thinges which be heauenly and spirituall you may as well bring hym downe to the plough as promote hym to the courte And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the office of a commissyoner is ecclesiasticall because it handleth ecclesiasticall causes I meruayle that he is so ignorant that he can not put a difference betweene geuing iudyciall sentences and appoynting bodely punishmentes which are meere cyuill and betweene the vnderstanding the truth of euery such cause according as the worde of God defyneth of it which is a thing common as wel vnto the magistrate as vnto the minister and wherein the mynister because he ought to be most ready ought if neede be consulted with An other of Maister Doctors reasons is that as kinges doe serue Christ by making lawes for hym so byshoppes doe serue Christ by executing lawes for him As though it pertayned not vnto the magistrates to execute lawes aswell as to make them and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking law because by executing them he doth cause the lawes after a fashion to speake Thys is to deuide the stake of the magistrate betwene hym and the byshop yea to geue the byshoppe the best part of it For wee know that with vs the people be at making of the lawes which may not meddle with the execution of them And if M. Doctor say that he meaneth not hereby to shut the prince from executing the lawes then as hys similytude when it is at the best proueth nothing so by thys meanes it haltes downe ryght and is no simylitude As for Elie and Samuell they are extraordinary examples which may thereby appeare for that both these offices first meting in Melchisedech afterward in Moses were by the commaundement of God seuered when as the Lord toke from Moses being so wise godly a man the priesthode gaue it to Aaron and to hys successors And so for so much as when the Lord would polishe hys church make it famous renoumed in the world he gaue thys order It appeareth that he wold haue this to be a perpetuall rule vnto his church And by so much it is the clearer for that the Lord did not tary vntil Moses death but toke the priesthode away frō Moses which was a man as able to execute both as eyther Elie or Samuell And thys may be also easely seene for that in a maner alwayes where there was any good and stayed estate of the churche these offices were mynistred by seuerall persons and then met were mingled when the estates were very ruinous and myserable And if thys be a good reason to proue that mynisters may exercise ciuill offices it is as good a reason to proue that princes may preach and mynister the sacramentes For if the mynisters may exercise ciuill offices because Elie and Samuell being mynisters did so the Princes and Iudges may preach the word and mynister the sacramentes because Elie and Samuell being princes and iudges dyd so And so we see how M. Doctor going about to defende one confusion bringeth in an other As for Elias killing the false prophetes and our sauiour Christes whipping out of the temple it is strange that Maister Doctor will alledge them as thinges to be followed when he may as well teach that we may cal for fire from heauen as Elias dyd and being demaunded answere nothing as our sauiour dyd as to follow these actions which are most singular and extraordinary And if these one or two examples be enough to breake the order that God hath set by thys a man may proue that the mynisters may be fyshers and tent makers because Peter and Paule being mynisters dyd fyshe and make tents And truely these are not so extraordinary and from the generall rule as the other be And it was permitted in a councell that rather then a mynister should haue two benefices he might labor with hys handes to supply hys want withall When S. Paule willed Tim. that he should not receiue an accusation agaynst an elder vnder two or three witnesses he dyd commit nothing les then any ciuill office vnto hym And M. Doctor hym selfe hath alledged it before as a thing incident to the office of a byshop and therefore he doth forget hymselfe maruellously now that maketh thys a ciuill office And doth M. Doctor thincke that S. Paule made magistrates Or is he of that iudgement that the church in the tyme of persecution may make ciuill officers
if thou be neither Christ nor Elias nor of the Prophets why baptisest thou whych had bene no good argument if s Iohn might haue bene of some other function then of those whych were ordinarie in the churche and instituted of god And therefore S. Iohn to establish his singular and extraordinary function alledgeth the word of God wherby appeareth that as it was not lawfull to bring in any strange doctrine so was it not lawfull to teache the true doctrine vnder the name of any other function then was instituted by God. Let the whole practise of the churche vnder the lawe be loked vpon and it shall not be founde that any other Ecclesiasticall ministery was appoynted then those orders of highe priest and priests and Leuites c. whych were appoynted by the law of God if there were any raised extraordinarily the same had their calling confirmed from heauen either by signes or miracles or by plaine cleare testimonies of the mouthe of God or by extraordinarye exciting and mouings of the spirite of god So that it appeareth that the ministerie of the gospell and the functions thereof ought to be from heauen and of God and not inuented by the braine of men from heauen I say and heauenly because althoughe it be executed by earthly men the ministers also are chosen by men like vnto themselues yet because it is done by the word and institution of God that hath not only ordained that the word should be preached but hathe ordained also in what order and by whome it should be preached it may well be accounted to come from heauen and from God. Seeing therefore that these functions of the Archbishop and Archdeacon are not in the word of God it foloweth that they are of the earth so can do no good but much harme in the church And if any man will say the we do the church great iniurye because we doe tie her to a certaine nomber of orders of ministers as it were to a stake so that she may not deuise new functions I say that bothe the churche and Christ doth accuse him againe Christ estemeth him selfe to haue iniurie because that by thys meanes he is imagined not to haue bene careful and prouident enough for hys church in that he hath left the ministerie wherein doth consist the life of the church being that wherby it is begottē so raw and vnperfect that by permitting of it to the ordering of men there is a great danger of error whych he might haue set without all daunger by a word or two speaking The churche of the other side riseth against hym for that he maketh Christ les carefull for her then he was for that vnder the lawe For tell me in the whole volume of the Testament is there any kinde or degre of ministerie wherof God is not the certen and expres author was there euer any man I except Ieroboam and suche prophane men either so holy or so wise or of suche great knowledge that euer did so muche as dreame of instituting of a newe ministerie After the long wandring of the Arke in the wildernesse when it came to be placed in Ierusalem tell me if any besides the Leuites and Priestes the ordinarie ministers and the Prophets whych were immediatly stirred vp of God were found to haue ordained any office or title whych was not commaunded or whether there was at any time any thing added or enioyned to those offices of priesthode and Leuiteship whych was not by the lawe prescribed All men knowe that the Arke of Noah was a figure of the church Noah was both a wise and a godly man yet what doth the Lord leaue to his wisdom when as he appoynteth the matter the forme the length the bredth the heigth the woode the kinde and sorte of woode In the tabernacle the church is yet more expressedly shewed forth Moses that was the ouerseer of the worke was a wise and a godly man the artificers that wroughte it Bezalael and Aholiab most cunning workemen and yet obserue howe the Lorde leaueth nothing to their will but telleth not onlye of the boordes of the curtaines of the apparell but also of the barres of the rings of the strings of the hookes of the besomes of the snuffers and of the thyngs the matter and the forme Let vs come to the temple whych as it was more neare the time of Christ so it dothe more liuely expres the churche of God whych nowe is Salomon the wisest man that euer was or shall be dothe nothing in it neyther for the temple nor for the vesselles of the temple nor for the beautie of it but according to the forme that was enioyned hym as appeareth in the Kings and Chronicles And in the restoring of that temple Ezechiel is witnes howe the Angell by the commaundement of God doth parte by parte appoynt all to be done bothe in the temple and in the furniture thereof Nowe if the holy ghoste in Figures and Tropes dothe so carefully and as a man may speake curiously comprehende all things in the truthe it selfe howe muche more is it to be thought that he hath performed this If in the shadowes howe muche more in the body if he haue done this in earthly things and which are pearished how is it to be thought that he hath not performed it in heauenly and those whych abide for euer And then tell me what are those times of which it was sayd the Messias when he commeth will tell vs all Is it a like thyng that he whych did not only appoynt the temple and the tabernacle but the ornaments of them woulde not only neglecte the ornamentes of the churche but also that wythout the whych as we are borne in hand it can not long stande shall we thinke that he which remembred the barres there hathe forgotten the pillers heere or he that there remembred the pinnes did heere forget the master builders shoulde he there remember the besomes and heere forget Archbyshops if any had bene needefull there make mention of the snuffers to purge the lights and heere passe by the lightes them selues And to conclude that he shoulde make mention there of the moates and heere say nothing of the beames there recken vp the gnattes heere keepe silence of the Camels what is this else but that which Aristotle sayth ta mikra horan kai ta megala paroran that is to looke to small things and not to looke to great which if it can not fall into the Lorde let it be a shame to say that the cheefe piller and vpholder of the churche is not expressed in the scripture nor can not bee concluded of it Moreouer those ministeries without the which the churche is fully builded and brought to perfection and complete vnitie are not to be retayned in the churche but with out the ministeries of Archbishop c. the churche maye bee fully builded and broughte to perfection therefore these ministeries are not
amendement And that this was the custome of the churches it may appeare by the. 9. of those canons whych are fathered of the apostles wher it is decreed that all the faithfull that entred into the congregation and heard the scriptures red and dyd not tary out the prayers the holy Communion should be as those whych were causers of disorders in the church seperated from the church or as it is translated of an other depriued of the Communion Also in the councell of Braccara it was decreed that if any entring into the church of God heard the Scriptures and afterward of wantonnes or losenes wythdrewe hym selfe from the communion of the sacrament and so brake the rule of discipline in the reuerende sacraments should be put out of the church till such time as he had by good frutes declared hys repentaunce But heere also may rise an other doubt of the former wordes of Moses in the boke of Numbers for seing that he maketh thys exception if they be cleane it may be sayd that those that depart do not fele themselues mete to receiue and therfore depart the other .iij. or .iiij. or moe feele themselues meete and disposed for that purpose whervpon it may seeme that it is neither reason to compell those to come which feele not themselues meete nor to reiect them that feele that good disposition and preparation in themselues For answer whervnto we must vnderstand that the vncleannes whych Moyses speaketh of was such as men could not easely auoid and whervnto they might fall sometimes by necessary duety as by handling their dead whych they were by the rule of charitye bound to burye sometimes by touching at vnwares a deade body or by sitting in the place where some vncleane body had sitten or by touching such things whych the law iudged vncleane which thing cannot be alleaged in those that are now of the church For as many as be of it and wythall of suche discretion as are able to proue and examine themselues can haue no excuse at all if they may be at the church to withdraw themselues from the holy supper of the lord For if they will say that they be not meete it may be answered vnto them that it is their owne fault and further if they be not meete to receiue the holy sacrament of the supper they are not meete to heare the woord of God they are not meete to be partakers of the prayers of the church and if they be for one they are also for the other For with that boldnes and wyth that duetye or lawfulnes I speake of those whych are of the church and of discretion to examine themselues I say wyth what lawfulnes they may offer themselues to the prayers and to the hearing of the word of God they may also offer themselues vnto the Lordes supper And to whomsoeuer of thē the Lord wil communicate himselfe by preaching the word vnto the same he wil not refuse to communicate himselfe by receiuing of the sacramēts For whosoeuer is of Gods housholde and familye he neede not be afraide to come to the Lords table nor dout but that the Lord will fede him there and whatsoeuer he be that is a membre of the body of Christ may be assured that he receiueth life frō Christ the head as well by the arteries condints of the supper of the Lord as by the preaching of the word of god So that it must needes folow that the not receiuing of those whych depart out of the church whē there is any communion celebrated procedeth either of vaine and superstitious feare growing of grose ignorance of themselues and of the holy sacraments or else of an intollerable negligence or rather contempt of the whych neither the one nor the other shuld be either borne wyth or nourished either by permitting .iij. or .iiij. to communicate alone or els in letting them whych depart go so easely away with so great a fault whych ought to be seuerely punished And vpon thys either contempt or superstitious feare drawne from the papists Lenton preparation of 40. dayes eareshrift displing c. it commeth to pas that men receyuing the supper of the Lord but seldome when they fall sicke must haue the supper ministred vnto them in their houses whych otherwise being once euery weke receiued before should not brede any such vnquietnes in thē when they can not come to receiue it Although as I haue before shewed if they had neuer receiued it before yet that priuate receiuing were not at any hand to be suffered And thus hauing declared what I thinke to be faulty in the communion boke in thys poynt and the reasons why and wyth all answeared to that whych eyther M. doctor alleageth in thys place of the. 80. and. 81. and likewise in the. 152. 185. pages touching thys matter I come now vnto that whych is called the Iewishe purifying by the admonition and by the seruice boke afore time the purification of women Now to the churching of women in the which title yet kept there seemeth to be hid a great part of the Iewish purification For lyke as in the old law shee that had brought forthe a childe was holden vncleane vntill suche time as shee came to the temple to shew her selfe after shee had brought forthe a man or a woman so thys terme of churching of her canseme to import nothing els thē a banishment as it were a certen excommunication from the church during the space that is betwene the time of her deliuery of her comming vnto y church For what doth els thys churching implie but a restoring her vnto y church whych cā not be without some bar or shutting forth presupposed It is also called the thanks giuing but the principall title whych is the directory of this part of the Liturgie placed in the top of the leafe as the whych the translator best liked of is churching of women To pas by the that it wil haue thē come as nigh the communion table as may be as they came before to y high altare because I had spoken once generally against such ceremonies y of all other is most Iewish approcheth nerest vnto the Iewish purification y she is commaūded to offer accustomed offrings Wherin besides that the very word offring caryeth with it a strong sent suspitiō of a sacrifice especially being vttered simply without any addition it can not be without danger that the boke maketh the custome of the popish church whych was so corrupt to be the rule measure of this offring And although the meaning of the boke is not the it shuld be any offring for sin yet this manner of speaking may be a stūbling stock in the way of y ignorant simple the wicked obstinate therby are confirmed hardned in their corruptions The best which can be answered in this case is the it is for the relief of the minister but thē it shuld be
the magistrate entring into the church the elder shuld be therfore thrust out For the elders office was to admonish seuerally those that dyd amisse to comfort those which he saw weake shaking and to haue neede of comfort to assist the pastor in ecclesiasticall censures of reprehensions sharper or milder as the faultes required also to assist in the suspēsions from the supper of the Lord vntill some triall were had of the repentance of that party which had confessed hym selfe to haue offended or else if he remayned stubburne to assist hym in the excommunicatiō These were those things which the elders dyd which forsomuch as they may doe as well vnder a christian magistrate as vnder a tyrant as well in the tyme of peace as in the tyme of persecution it followeth that as touching the office of elders there is no distinction in the tymes of peace and persecution of a christian prince and of a tyrant But I will yet come nearer That without the which the principal offices of charitie can not be excercised is necessary and alwayes to be kept in the church But the office of auncients elders are such as with out which the principal offices of charity can not be exercised therefore it followeth that thys office is necessary That the principall offices of charity can not be exercised without thys order of auncientes it may appeare for that he which hath faulted and amendeth not after he be admonyshed once priuately and then before one wytnes or two can not further be proceeded agaynst according to the commaundement of our sauior Christ onlesse there be in the church auncients and elders therefore thys principall office of charitie which tendeth to the amendment of hym which hath not profited by those two former admonitions can not be exercised without them For it is cōmaunded of our sauiour Christ that in such a case when a brother doth not profite by these two warnings it should be tolde the church Now I would aske who be meant by the church heere if he say by the church are meant all the people then I will aske how a man can conueniently complayne to all the whole congregation or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of thys matter I doe not deny but the people haue an interest in the excommunication as shall be noted heereafter but the matter is not so farre come for hee must first refuse to obey the admonition of the church or euer they can proceede so farre Well if it be not the people that be meant by the church who is it I heare M. Doctor say it is the pastor but if he will say so and speake so straungely he must warrant it wyth some other places of scripture where the church is taken for one which is as much to say as one man is many one member is a body one alone is a company And besydes thys strangenes of speach it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our sauiour Christ and destroyeth the soueraignitie of the medycine which our sauiour Christ prepared for such a festered sore as would neyther be healed with priuate admonition neyther with admonition before one or two witnesses For as the fault groweth so our sauiour Christ woulde haue the number of those before whome he shoulde be checked and rebuked lykewise grow Therefore from a priuate admonition he ryseth vnto the admonition before two or three from them to the church which if we should say it is but one then to a daungerouser wound should be layde an easier plaister and therefore our sauiour doth not ryse from two to one for that were not to ryse but to fall nor to proceede but to goe backward but to many Seeing then that the church heere is neyther the whole congregation nor the pastor alone it followeth that by the church here he meaneth the pastor with the auncients or elders Or else whome can he meane And as for thys manner of speach wherein by the church is vnderstanded the cheefe gouernours and elders of the church it is oftentymes vsed in the olde Testament from the which our sauiour borowed thys maner of speaking as in Exodus it is sayde That Moses wrought hys myracles before the people when mention is made before only of the elders of the people whome Moses had called together And most manifestly in * Iosue where it is sayde that he that kylled a man at vnwares shall returne vnto the citie vntill he stand before the congregration to be iudged Where by the congregation he meaneth the gouernoures of the congregation for it dyd not appertayne to all to iudge of thys case Lykewyse in the Chronicles and dyuers other places And therefore I conclude that forsomuch as those be necessary and perpetuall which are spoken of in those wordes tell the Church and that vnder those wordes are comprehended the elders or auncientes that the elders and auncientes be necessary and perpetuall officers in the church Furthermore S. Paule hauing entreated throughout the whole first Epistle to Timothe of the orders which ought to be in the church of God and of the gouernment as hym selfe wytnesseth in the third chapter of that Epistle whē he sayeth he wrote that Epistle to teach Timothe how he shoulde behaue hym selfe in the house of God and hauing set forth both byshoppe and elder and deacons as mynisters and officers of the church in the shutting vp of hys Epistle he for the obseruation of all the orders of that Epistle adiureth Timothe and with the inuocation of the name of God strayghtly chargeth hym to obserue those thinges which hee had prescribed in that Epistle I charge thee sayeth hee before God which quickeneth all things and before Iesus Christ which witnessed vnder Pontius Pilate a good profession that thou keepe thys commaundement without spot or blemishe vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ The wayght of which sentence for the obseruing of those things which are mentioned in thys Epistle that it may be the better vnderstanded I will note the wordes seuerally First therefore it is to be noted that he sayeth I denounce or I charge He doth not say I exhorte or giue counsell leauing it to the lyberty of Timothe Secondarely it is to be noted that he calleth the whole Epistle a commaūdement and therefore it is no permission so that it may be lawfull for the churches to leaue it or to keepe it Thirdly when he maketh mention of the lyuing God and of Christ which witnessed a good profession vnder Pontius Pilate he sheweth that the thinges contayned in thys Epistle are such as for the mayntenaunce thereof wee ought not to doubt to geue our lyues and that they be not such as we ought to kepe so that we haue them without strife and without sweate or easely but such as for the keeping of them if we haue them and for the obtayning of them if we haue them not I will not say