buyers and sellers out of the temple what office did Paule committe to Timothy when he sayde aduersùs Presbyterum c I woulde not haue a mynister to be a warriour or a farmer or a marchant or haue any such like osfice which consisteth in gayne or bodily labour only But why he may not haue suche an office as is profitable to encrease godlinesse and punish vngodlinesse I heare as yet no reason As for the office of an high commissioner it is Ecclesiasticall for they haue to do only in causes Ecclesiasticall T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. And for Elye and Samuell they are extraordinarie examples whiche may thereby appeare for that both these offices first meeting in Melchisedech and afterwarde in Moses were by the commaundement of God seuered when as the Lorde toke from Moses beyng so wise and godly a man the Priesthoode and gaue it to Aaron and to his successors And so for so much as when the Lord would polishe his churche make it famous renoun ed in the world he gaue this order it appeareth that he would haue this to be a perpetuall rule vnto his church And by so much it is the clearer for that the Lorde did not tarie vntill Moses death but tooke the priesthoode away from Moses which was a man as able to execute both as eyther Elye or Samuell Io. Whitgifte It is not certayne whether Moses were euer Priest or no for where it is sayd It is doubtfull whether Moses were priest in the. 99. Bsalme Moses Aaron in sacerdotibus eius the Hebrewe worde is doubtfull and signifieth as well a Prince as a Priest therefore vpon this place it cannot necessarily be concluded that Moses was a Priest Moreouer at that time the chiefe rulers men of greatest authoritie were called Priestes but you neuer redde that Moses offered vp any sacrifices for sinne which was the proper office of the Priest Neyther can you tell vs where he was euer consecrated Priest In déede Harding against the Apologie doth alledge this example at Moses being as he sayeth both a ciuill Magistrate and a Priest to proue that the Pope may be both King and Priest But be it as you say that these two offices were distinguished in Moyses Aaron that the Priests office which consisteth in offering oblations sacrifices was taken from him yet did he kéepe still his former authoritie in gouerning the church and in prescribing to Aaron what he should do euen in matters perteyning to the worship of God so that these two offices I meane ciuill and Ecclesiasticall are not so distinct but that they may both aptly well méete ioyne togither Further more Ciuill and ecclesiasticall offices mette in one you know that howsoeuer the priesthood ciuill Magistracie were deuided in Moses and Aaron yet mette they both togither againe not onely in Elye Samuell but in Es ras Nehemias Mattathias and some other which examples proue that vpon occasion these offices may meete togither in one Person they quite ouerthrow your allegation of Moses Chap. 3. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. And this may be also easily seene for that in a manner alwayes where there was any good stayde estate of the church these offices were ministred by seueral persons and then mette and were mingled when the estates were very ruinous and miserable A d if this be a good reason to proue that ministers may exercise ciuill offices it is as good a reason to proue that princes may preach and minister the Sacraments For if the ministers may exercise ciuill offices bicause Elye Samuell beyng ministers did so the Princes and iudges may preach the worde and mynister the Sacraments bicause Elye and Samuell being Princes and iudges did so And so we see how M. Doctor going about to desend one confusion bringeth in an other Io. Whitgifte Here you confesse that which hetherto in your whole booke you haue denied and T. C. confesseth the groūd of all these cōtrouersies that which is in deede the whole grounde of the chiefe matters in controuersie that is that the gouernment of the Churche may be diuerse according to the diuersitie of the time and state of the same as in the time of persecution it may be otherwise gouerned than in time of peace otherwise when the state is established than when it is ruynous and in decaye for say you In a manner alwayes where there was any good and stayed estate of the church these offices were ministred by seuerall persons and then mette and were mingled when the estates were very ruynous Thus haue you graunted of your owne accorde that which hitherto you haue so stifly and stoutly denied such is the might force of the truth And yet the church was in good state all Sainuels time and the moste parte of Elyes also for any thing that I can reade to the contrarie I brought in those examples to proue that these offices haue mette togither and The state of y e controuerūe altered by the Replier therefore be not so diuers as you would make them I do not vse them to this ende that I would haue a Priest to be a King you know the state of our question is onely whether Bishops may exercise those ciuill functions of Iusticeship of Peace and such like which the Prince committeth vnto them or no and not whether they may sitte in the Princes throne and take hir Scepter out of hir hande whether she will or no as the Pope doth And therfore whereas you saythat by these exāples of Elye and Samuell I may as well conclude that Princes may preach the worde and minister the sacraments as Priests and ministers execute cruill offices I thinke you do not consider that these ciuill offices be but accidents to the priesthode therefore may well be remoued as they were from Samuell when Saule was chosen King for Samuell kepte his Priesthoode though he lost his ciuill authoritie but the Priesthoode is not so to the cyuill magistrate except he will be ordinarily and lawfully admitted therevnto I thuike that there is no degree of dignitie that maketh a man vnmeete for the ministerie if he be therevnto lawfully called and haue other giftes méete for the same wherefore as it followeth not that a minister in the respect that he is a minister ought to haue a ciuill office but that he may haue one if he be by the ciuill Magistrate therevnto appoynted so it doth not follow that a ciuill Magistrate ought to be a minister of the woorde but that he may be if he be méete and therevnto ordinarily and lawfully called and admitted The Prieste may not take vpon him the office of the ciuill Magistrate vnlesse he be called lawfully vnto it nor the ciuill Magistrate may not take vpon him the office of a Priest vnlesse he be ordinarily therevnto admitted And this is no confusion at all Chap. 3. the. 10. Diuision
described 118 VVherein the Iewes had a more particular direction than we 117 Iewes had somthing common with the Gentils 321 ¶ Ignorātia Elenchi looke Argumentum ¶ Infirmities in all men 612 ¶ Imposition of handes diuersly taken 198 Imposition of handes 226 Imposition of handes in confirmation allowed by maister Caluin pag. 785 ¶ Inconstancie of T. C. and his com panions 431 ¶ Indifferent things loose the nature of indiffereneie being commaunded 92. 258 In what kind of indifferent thinges we ought to haue respecte to the weake 258 Auncient Fathers of things Indifferent 95. c. Councelles of thinges Indifferent pag. 97. 98 Scriptures of things Indifferent 98 Augustin of things Indiffer 99. c. Caluin of things Indifferēt 109. c. Late writers of things Indifferent pag. 126. c. The doctrine of things Indifferent pag. 278 ¶ Interrogatories to Infāts 6 7. c. Augustine of Interrogatories 608 ¶ The Introite 588 Celestinus his Introite 589 ¶ Iohn his apparell 270 Iohn setteth his name to the Apocalips 807 ¶ Ionathan the Calday paraphraste pag. 718 ¶ The Iudiciall law abrogated 121 The Iudicialles perteyned to the gouernement of the church 119 The Magistrate not bound to the Iu diciall law of Moses 121. c. Iustinian made Ecclesiasticall lawes pag. 699 K ¶ Difference betwixt a king and a Tyrant 377 Christ and his Gospel no enemies to Kingdomes 647 ¶ Kneeling at the cōmuniō 596. c Kneeling the meetest gesture 597 Kneeling at the name of Iesus 741 L ¶ Lawes made must not bee ouerthrowne without strong reasons pag. 686 Lawfull is ordinary in a Church esta blished 38 Difference betwixt the seueritie of the lavve and the lenitie of the Gospell 149 ¶ Lay men teachers in the Church pag. 209. 521 Lay men baptised 518. 519 ¶ Letters commendatorie 141 ¶ The Letany 489. 495. 496. ¶ Leo Archbishop 338 471 ¶ Leuites had to do in ciuill matters pag. 697 ¶ The true libertie of the Church pag. 195. Christian libertie 791 VVhat libertie cannot bee taken away 541 No mans libertie restrayned 542 ¶ Libell what it is 807 Libellers be vnderminers 559 Libelling no true way of reforming pag. 806 The Libellers compared to pharisies pag. 807 ¶ Licence to preach necessarie 255 ¶ Passing Logicke 383 M ¶ Macheuiles 8 0 ¶ Magistrates cuill spoken of by Anabaptists and why 37 Ciuill Magistrates may not take vppon them ecclesiasticall functions pag. 5 Ciuill Magistrate doth not simply differ from the ecclesiasticall by bearing rule 63 No Christian Magistrate in the Apostles time 180 The Magistrate head of the commō wealth but not of the church by T. C. 180 How the Church may be established without a Magistrate 182 The Magistrates authoritie abridged pag. 265. 266 The Magistrate may abridge externall libertie 541 The Papistes opinion of Christian Magistrates 631 No more graunted to the Christian Magistrate than to the Turke 635 The Ciuill Magistrate a better helpe than Seniors 640. 641 The Prince made subiect to Seniors pag. 646 The Magistrate may better reforme offenders than Seniors 643. The ouerthrowe of the Princes authoritie conteyned in the Reply page 646. The authoritie of the Ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters page 694. c. The Prince spoyled of his authoritie 694. The opinion of the Replyer concerning the Princes authoritie 695 VVhat authoritie Papistes gyue to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters 695. Princes haue exercised supreme authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matter page 698 6 9. A wise Prince will take the aduise of the learned in waighty affa es page 6 9. The ciuill Magistrate shut from the gouernment of the Church 78 ¶ Magnificat nunc dimittis 494. c. 496. ¶ Manichees appoynt the Lords day to be fasted 1 2. ¶ Matters cōcerning the solemnization of mariage 723 c. Toyes about mariage 794. ¶ M. Martyrs words peruerted 2 0. ¶ Massemongers may bee ministers page 143. c. ¶ Masters of Colledges their authoritie 397. ¶ Matthias elected extraordinarily page 154. ¶ Meletius Archbyshop of Egipte page 471. ¶ Mercie of God infinite 83. 624. ¶ Messalian heretikes 536. ¶ Metaphores of watchmē shepheardes 22 2 7. ¶ Metropolitane 297. c Metropolitan loke Archbishop ¶ Ministers that cannot preach 251. c. Causes of lacke of able Ministers page 252. Ministers knowne in time paste by apparell 261. c. Ministers hauing no pastorall charg page 216. c. Ministers diffamed not reformed by the Admonitors 36. Ministers reuyled by Anabaptistes and why 37. A man maye offer himselfe to the Ministerie 48. Ministers maye exercise some ciuill iurisdiction 64. 354. 749. c. Election of Ministers 132. c The tryall of Ministers in learning and conuersation 132. VVorthie Ministers in England 1 0 The Minister may be assured of his calling thoughe he be not chosen by the people 194. All Ministers gouerne but not alike page 314. Ministers subiect to Bishops 420 One Minister may not meddle in an other mans charge 803 A Minister may vse corporall punish ment 764 The Minister hindered by whom pag. 484 The Minister not the only mouth of the people 501. c. ¶ More sinceritie in the ministration of the Sacraments nowe than in the auncient Church 526 ¶ Misteries vvhat they be 515 ¶ The gouernment of this Realme Monarchicall 182. 650 A Monarchie and Tiranny confoun ded by T. C. 377 ¶ Modestie of the Replier 351 ¶ The moderators office 395 ¶ Moses wife did circumcise 515 ¶ Monuments of Idolatrie may bee vsed if they be profitable 256 ¶ Mourning apparell 730. 731 A lawfull vnlavvfull vse of mourning apparell 732 ¶ Musculus alleaged for Ierome 203 222. Musculus his reasons vppon the 20. of Mathew 69. c. Musculus his meaning peruerted 193 N ¶ Names of diuers kindes 64 Names common to ciuill and ecclesiasticall persons 64 Names proper to God may in some respect be attributed to other 300 A lawful name may remaine though it hath bene abused 302 How these wordes vos autem non sic may be referred to names 63 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not all one 71 ¶ Diuers significations of this word Necessarie 80 ¶ N ene Creede 589 ¶ Only 2. essentiall notes of the Church 81 ¶ Nouatus and his qualities and the cause of his heresie 74 Nouatus the first that forsooke his ministerie 74 The Nouatian heresie 360 O ¶ Offences giuen to the papistes thorough contention 143 ¶ The opponent should proue 712 ¶ Ordeining of Ministers pertaineth to Bishops 225 c. ¶ Orders of the Church depend not vpon euery mans misliking 86 Generall Orders not lightly to be altered 101 Decrees pertayninge to Order not only humane 107 Decent Orders Gods traditions 606 How the Lordes Order is kept 684 The Order which T. C. prescribeth is full of Inconueniences 173 ¶ The Ordinarie meanes too drawe men from vice 477 ¶ Origen a lay man when hee preached 209 ¶ A grosse Ouersight of T. C. 698
But you haue not yet proued your doctrine now in question to be that doctrine of the Gospell of saluation These woordes might wel haue ben spoken of the Gospell against Mahometisme Iudaisme Papisme but you doe iniurie to that doctrine of lyfe when you confounde with the same your erroneous contentions about ceremonies and the kinde of gouernment whiche all béeing externall things I thinke not many will make them to be de necessitate salutis of necessitie vnto saluation you haue here sayde nothing of your doctrine but that whiche the Arrians the Pelagians the Papistes the Turkes yea almoste the Anabaptistes will say of theirs for many euen of the Anabaptistes confesse that Magistrates be necessarie but yet not to be lawfull for Christians to be Magistrates and for proof therof they vse diuers of the self same places that the Admonition hath alleaged and you allowed against superioritie in the clergie And except I be deceyued you come verie néere to them for you will haue the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill gouernment so distincte that they can by no meanes concurre in one and the selfe same persons wherby you take from the Ciuil Magistrate authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and by that meanes spoyle him of the one halfe of his iurisdiction But of this matter more at large hereafter as occasion shall be ministred by you In the meane tyme I admonishe the Reader to beléeue youre wordes no farther than he shall sée iust proofe of them T. C. If it be asked of the obedience due vnto the Prince and vnto the Magistrate it answereth that all obedience in the Lorde is to be rendred and if it come to passe that any other be asked it so refuseth that it disobeyeth not in preferring obedience to the greate God before that whiche is to be giuen to mortall man It so resysteth that it submitteth the bodie and goodes of those that professe it to abyde that whiche God will haue them suffer in that case Io. Whitgifte All this is truly spoken of the doctrine of the Gospell but not of the doctrine in controuersie amongst vs and verily this is not plaine dealing to make the reader beléeue that we doe withstande the doctrine of the Gospell when we only resist your contentions about externall matters wherby the doctrine of the Gospel is hindered and the Churche of Christ disturbed T. C. And if it be shewed that this is necessarie for the Churche it can not be but profitable for the common wealth nay the profit of it may easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipline of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kept back from committing of great disorders of stealing adulterie murder c. whylest the smaller faults of lying and vncomely 〈◊〉 of harde and cholerike speaches which the magistrate both not commonly punishe be corrected Io. Whitgifte If it be necessarie for the present state of the Churche it is also profitable for the present state of the cōmon welth for I perceiue no such distinction of the common wealth the church that they should be counted as it were two seueral bodies gouerned with diuers lawes diuers Magistrates except the Church be linked with an heathenish idolatrous cōmon wealth The ciuil Magistrate may not take vpon him What ecclestasticali functions the 〈◊〉 Magistrate may not take vpon him ▪ such Ecclesiastical functiōs as are only proper to the Minister of the Church as preaching of the wordé administring of the Sacramentes excommunicating and suche lyke but that he hath no authoritie in the Churche to make and execute lawes for the Churche and in things pertaining to the Churche as Discipline Ceremonies c. so that he doo nothing agaynst the woorde of God though the Papistes affirme it neuer so stoutely yet is the contrarie moste true and sufficiently proued by men of notable learning as Master Iewell Bishop of Salisburie Maister Horne Bishop of Winchester Maister Nowell Deane of Paules in their bookes written against Papistes holding your assertion to whose painefull and learned writings I res rre the Reader for the auoyding of too muche prolixitie I doe not well vnderstande what is mente by these woordes Naye the profite of it maye easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipliue of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kepte backe from committing of greater disorders of stealyng adulterie murther c. whylest the smaller faultes of lying and vncomely iesting of harde and cholerike speaches whiche the Magistrate dothe not commonly punysh be corrected Doe you not thinke the punishemente for stealing and murther to be sharpe enough or doe you thynke that the feare of the Discipline of the Churche will more terrifie men from these vices than the feare of deathe Or doe you doubte whether the Ciuill Magistrate hathe Authoritye to appoynte anye other punyshemente for these and suche lyke crimes than is prescribed in the Iudiciall Lawe of Moyses For thys is nowe called in controuersie and begynneth to bée table talke or are you perswaded that the Ciuill Magistrate eyther maye not or will not correcte lying vncomely iesting harde and cholerike speaches Or that if these were punished by the Discipline of the Churche men woulde rather be terrified from the greater crymes than they will be if they be punished with ciuill correction Truly I thinke that the ciuill Magistrate hath sufficient authoritie to prouide remedies for all suche mischieues without altering the state eyther of the church or of the cōmon wealth But let the indifferent Reader iudge whether you goe aboute to wring the swoorde out of the Magistrates hand or no or at the least so to order the matter that it be neuer drawne out to punishe vice but with the consent and at the appoyntment of you and your seigniorie T. C. And vndoubtedly seing that the churche and common wealth doe embrace and kisse one an other seing they be like vnto Hypocrates twinnes which were sick together wel together laughed together and weped together and alwayes lyke affected it can not be but that the breaches of the common wealth haue proceeded from the hurts of the Church and the wants of the one from the lackes of the other Neither is it to be hoped for that the common wealth shal florish vntill the Church be reformed Io. Whitgifte All this I grant and God be thanked therfore if we shal measure the state of the church with the florishing estate wise gouernment of the cōmon wealth we shall haue no great cause to complaine but to burste oute into moste hartie thankes vnto God for the same and most humbly desire the continuance therof I do not say that the Churche is without fault for then should I affirme an impossibilitie but I thinke the faultes that are rather to be in the persons than in the lawes rather in the gouernours than in the kinde of gouernment neyther woulde I haue men eyther Puritanes Donatistes or Anabaptists
may lawfully be reteyned and worne whose iudgement and authoritie with learned and wyse men doth farre ouerreach your naked denyall Neyther doth Tertullian speake any thing in his books de corona militis that tendeth to the confutation of anye thing that Master Martyr hath here spoken but to the confirmation of it rather as he maye perceyue that with diligence readeth the booke Eusebius Lib. 4. cap. 11. sayth that Iustinus Martyr preached the Eusebius Gospell of Christ beyng apparelled lyke an heathen Philosopher S. Augustine de ciuit Lib. 19. cap. 19. writeth thus it perteyneth nothing to the Citie of God in what kinde of Augustine apparell or in what order of lyfe so that it be not agaynst God anye man followe this fayth whereby we come vnto God Therfore when Philosophers become Christians the church compelleth them not to chaunge their apparell or manner of lyuing whiche can nothing hinder Religion but onely she compelleth them to chaunge their false opinions Hilarie Hilarie also sayth in Psal. 67. that the spoyles of the heathens taken from the deuill are deuided to the furniture and ornamentes of the Churche of God So that the saying of Master Martyr is very true and confirmed by auncient authoritie and the vse of the Church as the testimonies of these fathers manifestly declare Where as you saye that if I would haue matched the surplice well I should haue sayd sensors tapers c. I tell you againe that it is not I but M. Martyr a famous and notable man that so matched them and at that time when the same matters were in controuersie and his iudgement required of them and therefore coulde not be written of him but with great aduisement Howbeit that you maye know something the more you muste learne to put a difference betwene Adiapbora vera Pseudoadiapbora those things that be indifferent in deede and those that are falsely accompted indifferent Chap. 5. the fifth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 59. Sect. 1. Pag. 60. Sect. 1. Bucer in an Epistle that he writte to Iohn Alasco is of the same Bucer iudgement his wordes are worthie to be noted and be these For if by no meanes it be lavvfull to vse those things vvhiche vvere of Aarons Priesthood or of the Gentiles then is it not lavvfull for vs to haue Churches nor holydayes For there is no expresse commaundement by vvord in the holy Scriptures of these things It is gathered notvvithstanding from the example of the olde people that they are profitable for vs to the encrease of godlynesse vvhich thing also experience proueth For any thing to be a What it is to be a note of Antichrist note of Antichrist is not in the nature of any creature in it selfe for to that ende nothing vvas made of God but it hangeth altogether of consenting to Antichristes Religion and the professing thereof The vvhich consent and The vse or abuse of things indifferent profession beyng chaunged into the consent and profession of Christianitie there can sticke in the things themselues no note or marke of Antichristes Religion The vse of Bels vvas a marke of Antichristianitie in our Churches vvhen the people by them vvere called to Masses and when they vvere roong against tempestes Novve they are a token of Christianitie vvhen the people by them are gathered together to the Gospell of Christ and other holy actions VVhy may it not then be that the selfe same garmentes Bucers opinion may serue godly vvith godly men that vvas of vvicked signification vvith the vngodly Truely I knovve very many Ministers of Christe most godly men vvho haue vsed godly these vestures and at this day doe yet vse them So that I dare not for this cause ascribe vnto them any faulte at all much lesse so heynous a fault of communicating vvith Antichrist for the vvhiche faulte vve may vtterly refuse to communicate vvith them in The distribution of bread wine in the sacrifices of deuils Christ. The Priests of deuils did celebrate in their sacrifices the distribution of bread and the cuppe as Iustinus Martyr and Tertullian make mention VVhat let is there vvhy vve may not vse the same ceremonies also you vvill say vve haue a commaundement of the Lord touching this ceremonie Very vvell And by the selfe same it appeareth that same thing to serue among the children of God to the seruice of Christ vvhich the vvicked abused in the seruice of deuils if the commaundement of Christ be added thereto But it is the commaundement of Christ that in our holy actions vveinstitute and vse all things so as comelinesse and order be obserued that fayth may be edified The same M. Bucer in another Epistle written to M. Cranmer Archbishop of Canterbury saith on this sort All true godly men may ☞ godly vse those rytes vvhiche vvicked men haue abused hovvsoeuer vngodly T. C. Pag. 56. Line 2. Sect. 1. It is true that M. Bucer saith that it is not in the nature of any creature to be a note of Antichrist but yet it followeth not thereof that the creature that hath bene accidentally and throughe abuse applyed to Idolatrie may be forthwith vsed as we shall thinke good For neither the Idols of the gentus nor the corruptions of those which offered had not power to make the beefe or mutton that was offered no good and holesome meate for the sustenaunce of man neyther cause that a Christian man could not eate them as beefe mutton but yet either to eate it at the table of Idols before them or else priuately in his owne house when there was any weake by that thought it an abhominable thing was not lawfull and yet the meate neuerthelesse the good creature of God and which might be receiued with thanksgiuing so the abuse of the surplis and coape c. cannot cause but that they may be vsed as cloth and silke And whereas he saith that they are changed and made of notes of Antichristianitie markes of Christianitie I say that they cannot be changed so by and d cree or commaundement for asmuch as notwithstanding that profession of chaunge the ha t s or men vnto whiche euery man must haue regard vnto are not changed For not so soone as the magistrate will say that these things shall be from hencefoorth vsed as things indifferent foorthwith men do vse them so but those only vse them so which haue knowledge both the ignorant and the weake take them still otherwise Io. Whitgifte Your answer to these learned and famous men is not of any moment at all for The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 answering of T. C. their reasons you answer only with wordes when as indéede their onely wordes for their godlinesse experience and learning sake ought to be of greater credite than your reasons but the aptnesse of your answers I referre to the iudgement of the reader séeing he hath both their words and yours before his eyes This only I note that
For his carefulnesse appeareth and consisteth in this that he hath nowe muche more playnly set down the doctrine of saluation in all pointes than it was in the law and hath also ordeyned that there shoulde be not only fit ministers to publish that doctrine but offices also to gouerne the people in godlinesse As for names and titles other externall things variable according to diuers circumstances he hath left them to the libertie of his Churche as I haue before declared which is one part of his singular goodnesse towardes the Churche in that it is not so seruilely tyed to externall things and to the letter as it was vnder the lawe And it is euidēt that vnder the law there were offices titles in the church which Titles offices in y e church vnder the law where God is not y e chief author are not cōmaunded in the scripture nor wherof we reade God to haue bene the expresse author As Archisynagogus Mar. 5. Scribae or legis doctores 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or magistratus seu duces templi Luc. 22. vers 52. and those seniores populi and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whervpon you ground your seigniorie For M. Caluin vpon the. 18. of Math. sayth that this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was apoynted after the children of Israell returned from the captiuitie of Babylon Chap. 1. the eleuenth Diuision T C. Page 63. Sect. 1. All men know that the Arke of Noah was a figure of the church Noah was both a wise and a godlie man yet what doth the Lorde leaue to his wisedome when as he appointeth the matter the forme the length the breadth the height the wood the kynd and sorte of wood Io. Whitgifte All men knowe howe vncertaine a reason it is that is grounded vpon figures and Uncertaine reaso ing of figures and allegories 〈◊〉 le t to 〈◊〉 no ded Gen. 8. types excepte the application therof may be founde in the Scriptures For a man may applie them as it pleaseth him euen as he may doe allegories and yet was there manie things required to the Arke whereof there is no expresse mention made and namely nayles or pinnes to ioyn it together neither is it expressed whether the window was of glasse or of chrystal or of neyther Moreouer he is not prescribed to make a couer for it and yet it had one as is declared cap. 8. The ouerseers and maisters of the woorke lykewyse are not there appoynted but lefte to the discretion of Noah There are many other thinges required to the making of suche an Arke whereof there is no expresse mention in that place To conclude Noah beeing in the Arke did thinges which the Scripture dothe not expresse that he was commaunded to do as when he sente out the Rauen and the Doue c. cap. 8. Wherefore I say with M. Caluin in 6. genes Caluin Arcam fuisse Ecclesiae imaginem certum est teste Petro verùm singulas eius parteis ad ecclesiam aptare minime consentaneum est It is certaine that the Arke was a figure of the church by the testimonie of Peter but it is not mete to applie euerie parte thereof vnto the Churche Chap. 1. the twelfth Diuision T. C. Page 63. Sect. 4. In the tabernacle the Church is yet more expressely shewed foorth Moyses that was the ouerseer of the worke was a wise and godly man the artificers that wrought it Bezalaell and Aholiab most cunning workmen and yet obserue how the Lord ▪ leaueth nothing to their will but telleth not only of the bourdes of the courtanes of the apparell but also of the barres of the rings of the strings of the bookes of the beesoms of the snuffers and of the thinges the matter and the form Io. Whitgifte It is well knowen that the Israelites had long continued among the Egyptians a Why God ap pointed so ma ny ceremonies to the Israelites most superstitious kind of people without any law of God written and therfore now being deliuered from them and yet inclined to their Idolatrie God as most writers thinke of his infinite wisedome did so charge them with ceremonies of his owne institution that they should neyther haue leysure to vse any other nor yet desire the Egiptiacall kind of worshipping Touching the tabernacle and the particular description of things perteining to the Pellican same I say with Pellicane These things are particularly described according to the word of the Lord that the people might know that they ought not so much to obey Moyses precepts as the will of God in building the Tabernacle and in freely offering to the same their gold their siluer their brasse their purple c. the which otherwise they would haue abused to their owne vanities and that also they might not be without that bewtie in ceremonies and worshipping of God which they see among the Gentiles Moreouer that they mighte haue matter to occupie them with least they shoulde fall to slothfulnesse and idlenesse So that of this place it may be well gathered that nothing wherein the worship of God doth consist is to be vsed without his prescription but how you can aptly apply thys figure to the externall gouernment and pollicie of the Church I cannot well vnderstand and if you may so vse it yet do you but allegory which is no good kind of proofe bycause allegories may be applyed according to euery particular mans inuention But all that can be truely gathered of this figure is as I haue saide before that Calui e. 35. Exo. in expos 2. praecept ▪ no kynde of worship may be broughte into the Churche of God whiche is not grounded vppon hys woorde and therefore Ma. Caluine speaking of thys tabernacle saythe that God gaue preceptes of the tabernacle and thynges perteyning to it Ne externa pietatis exercitia quae vidimus fuisse admodùm necessaria populum deficerent Least the people should wante the outwarde exercises of godlynesse which we see to haue bene verie necessarie And againe he sayth that when Moyses in the mountaine dydde sée the example of the Tabernacle he was then instructed De vero Dei cultu mysterijs of the true worship of God and of heauenly mysteries And againe speaking of this Tabernacle he sayth Lex Iudaeos ad spiritualem solum Dei cultum instituit sed ceremonijs vestitum vt ferebat temporis ratio The lawe did institute the Iewes only to the spirituall vvorship of God but yet couered with ceremonies as the tyme required Therfore in this figure there was only expressed what shoulde be done in the worshipping of God and not in the externall policie and gouernment of the Churche Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 63. Sect. 3. Let vs come to the temple which as it was more nere the tyme of Chryst so it doth more liuely expresse the Chur he of God whiche nowe is Salomon the wyse t man that euer was or shall be doth
may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Iud. 51. Testament As in the booke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the Uniuersitie men those whiche handled the penne of the wryter that they came out to helpe in the battayle agaynst the enemies of God And in the first booke of Samuell and in the seconde booke of the Kings 1. Sam. 19. when Naioth and Bethel Iericho and a place beyonde Iordan are specified places which were 2. Rg. 2. scholes or Uniuersities where the scholers of the Prophets were brought vp in the feare of God and good learning the continuance of whiche scholes and vniuersities amongst the people of God Act. 6. may be easily gathered of that which S. Luke writeth in the Actes where it may appeare that in Ierusalem there were certayne Colleges appoynted for seuerall countrey men so that there was one College to receyue the Iewes and Proselites which came out of Cilicia another for those that came out of Alexandria c. to studie at Ierusalem And if any man be able to shewe suche euidence for Archbishops and Archedeacons as these are for vniuersities and scholes I will not denie but it is as lawfull to haue them as these Io. Whitgifte Yet sayth he truely for in those tymes in Christian congregations there were neyther publike Churches or Pulpits or scholes or Vniuersities c. and yet these doe apperteyne to the gouernmente of the Churche In déede S. Paule speaketh onely there of suche ecclesiasticall functions as doe teache and preache the worde and not of suche as doe onely gouerne and therefore it can not be a perfecte platfourme for euer as I haue before declared and yet dyuers of these thinges mentioned by the Bishop of Sarisburie perteyne bothe to the office of teaching and gouerning That whiche you saye of Scholes and Uniuersities I minde not to examine bicause I knowe they be necessary for the Churche howe aptely soeuer you proue them But this is the matter they be necessarie in the Churche bothe for the office The Byshop is not answered of gouerning and teaching and yet they be not expressed in the fourthe to the Ephesians therefore in that fourth to the Ephesians there is no perfecte paterne of all ecclesiasticall gouernment for that is the thing that the Bishop of Sarisburie affirmeth and therevnto you answere not one worde Not one of these places that you alleage proueth that in this texte to the Ephesians eyther Scholes or Vniuersities be mentioned thoughe it be certayne that they perteyne bothe to teaching and gouerning and therefore all this spéeche of yours is Ignorantia Elenchi to no purpose but onely to dasle the eyes of the Reader least he should perceyue how you offende in ignorantia Elenchi in not answering ad idem Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 3. Furthermore he sayth that the Churche is not gouerned by names but by offices so is it in deede And if the office of an Archbishop or Archdeacon can be shewed we wyll not stryue for the name but for so much as all the needefull offices of the Church togither with theyr names are mentioned in the the Scripture it is truely sayde that bothe the offices and names of Archebishop and Archedeacons beeing not onely not conteyned in them but also condemned ought to be banished out of the Churche Io. Whitgifte I haue before shewed that the office of visiting Churches of ouerséeing many Pastors The office of archbyshops archde cons contemed in scripture and Bishops of suppressing schismes c. was in the Apostles and is in the scriptures But in these things doth the office of an Archbyshop consist and in part of them the office of an Archdeacon therefore the offices of Archbyshops and Archdeacons be conteined in the scriptures and were in the Apostles time For although as I then sayde that this part of the Apostolicall office which did consist in planting and founding Churches through the whole world is ceased yet the manner of gouernment by placing Byshops in euery Citie by moderating and gouerning them by visiting the Churches by cutting of schismes and contentions by ordering Ministers remaineth still and shall continue and is in this Church in the Archbyshops and Byshops as most meete men to execute the same Wherefore séeing the offices be in the scriptures there is no cause why the names should be mislyked much lesse banished and cast out of the churche Chap. 4. the. 8. Diuision T C. Pag. 92. Sect. 4. Last of all he sayth that Anacletus if there be any wayght in his wordes nameth an Archbyshop I haue before shewed what waight there is in his wordes I refuse not that he be weyghed by the Byshops owne weyghtes whiche he giueth vs in the handling of the article of the supremacie and in the. 223. and. 224. pages by the which weyghtes appeareth that this Anacletus is not onely lighte but a playne counterfeit Io. Whitgifte Yet you sée that learned men are content to vse such authoritie as occasion serueth Supra ap 〈◊〉 ▪ diuis 13. as I haue also before shewed other learned men to doe the lyke And if it be to greatly to be reproued first smite at your selfe as most guiltie in this poynt Chap. 4. the. 9. Diuision The second Reason Secunda ratio ▪ The Synagogue of the Iewes was a figure of the Church of Christe And God to the perfection of that Church omitted nothing The Ansvvere of the Byshop I see not vvhat you vvoulde conclude perhaps you vvill saye they had Eius solutio not the names of Pope or Archbyshop So had they not this name Episcopus in all Moses lavve yet vvere not all Priests of like aunciencie in gouernment They had other names that vvere equiualent vvith Archbyshops as Principes Synagogae Principes sanctuarij Principes familiarum Leuiticarum Principes familiarum sacerdotalium Principes Sacerdotum Principes domus Dei Pontifex Summus Pontifex Summus sacerdos c. Therefore this negatiue reason is but vveake Agayne vvhereas it is sayde that to the perfection of the Synagogue there vvanted nothing it may be ansvvered that to the perfection thereof there vvanted many things as it is knovvne and confessed And as the Synagogue had not the names of Pope and Archbyshop so had it not the name of Apostle o Euangelist c. T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 5. The second reason which saith that the churche of God vnder the lawe had all all things needefu ▪ appointed by y e commaundement of God the Bishop saith he knoweth not what could be concluded of it I haue shewed before that there is nothing lesse ment than that the Church vnder the Gospell should haue al those things that y e Church had or should haue nothing which that had not But this ther vpon is concluded that the Lord which was so carefull for that
the cōmon wealth the ci ill Magistrate the ecclesiasticall as you do throughout your whole booke it is no mar ell though you thinke No more authoriti 〈◊〉 ed to a ch istian Magistrate tha t the Turke the office of Seniors to be perpetuall For you giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall gouernment thā you would do to the Turke if you were vnder him And therfore according to your platforme the gouernment of the Church is all one vnder a christian Magistrate and vnder the great Turke But to l aue the Admonition what haue you spoken of the office of Seniors which is not eyther proper to the Pastor or cōmon to all Christians or such as may be much better brought to passe by the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate than by the ignorance simplicitie and rudenesse of the most of your Seniors But first let vs heare more of your 〈◊〉 before we come to vtter the absurditie of your cause Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 140. in the midst But I will yet come nearer That without the which the principall offices of charitie cannot be exercised is necessarie and alwayes to be kept in the Churche but the office of Auncients Elders are such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised therfore it followeth that this office is necessarie That the principal offices of charitie cannot be exercised without this order of Auncients it may appeare for that he which hath faulted and amēdeth not after he be admonished once pri ately and then before one witnesse or two cānot further be proceeded against Math. 18. according to the commaundement of our sauiour Christ onlesse there be in the Church Auncients d Elders therfore this principal office of charitie which tendeth to the amendment of him which hath not pr̄ofited by those two former admonitions can not be exercised without them For it is commaunded of our sauiour Christ that in such a case when a brother doth not proffite by these two warnings it should be tolde the Church Now I would aske who be ment by the Church heere if he say by the Church are ment al y e people then I will aske how a man can conueniently complayn to all the whole congregation or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of this matter I do not denie but the people haue an interest in the excommunication as shal be noted hereafter bu the matter is not so farre come for he must first refuse to obey the admonition of the Church or euer they can proceede so farre Wel if it be not the people that be ment by the Church who is it I heare M. Doctor say it is the Pastor but if he will say so speake so straungely he must warrant it with some other places of scripture where the Church is takē for one which is as much to say as one man is many one member is a body one alone is a companie And besides this strangenesse of speech it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our sauiour Christ and destroyeth the soueraintie of the medicine which our sauiour Christ prepared for such a festred sore as would neyther be healed with priu te admonition neyther w t admonition before one or two witnesses For as y e fault groweth so our sauior Christ would haue the nūber of those before whō he shuld be checked rebuked likewise grow Therfore from a priuate admonition he riseth vnto the admonitian before two or three from thē to the church which if we should say it is but one then to a dangerouser wound should be layd an easier plaster therfore our sauiour doth not rise from two to one for that were not to rise but to fall nor to proceede but to go backwarde but to many Seeing then that the church here is neyther the whole congregation nor the pastor alone it followeth that by the churche here he meaneth the pastor with the Auncients or Elders Or else whom can he meane And as for this maner of speech wherin by the church is vnderstanded the chiefe gouernours and Elders of the church it is oftentimes vsed in the olde Testament from the which our sauiour borrowed this maner of speaking as in Exodus it is sayd that Moses wrought his miracles before y e 4. chap. people when mention is made before onely of the Elders of the people whome Moses had called togither And most manifestly in Iosue where it is sayd that he that killed a man at vnwates shall 0. chap. returne vnto the citie vntill he stand before the congregation to be iudged Where by the congregation he meaneth the gouernours of the congregation for it did not appertayne to all to iudge of this case Likewise in the Cronicles and diuers other places nd therefore I conclude that for so 1. li. 13. cha muche as those be necessarie and perpetuall which are spoken of in those words tell the Churche and that vnder those words are comprehended the Elders or Auncients that the Elders auncients be necessarie and perpetuall officers in the churche Io. Whitgifte Héere are many words without matter a great thing pretended to no purpose for the principal offices of charitie both hath bin may be wel exercised without your Seniors Dic ecclesiae interpreted the place Mat. 18. doth in no respect proue the contrarie For it only teacheth an order howe to procéede charitably in priuate offences not in publike as I haue shewed before Moreouer to tel the Church is eyther publikly to reproue those that haue bin priuately in that maner admonished wil not repent or else to complayne vnto such as haue authoritie in the Churche according to that which I sayde before of this place in my Answere to y e Admonition And héerein you ioyne with me in that you take the Church there for the chief gouernours of the Church though we differ in y e persōs Church for the gouernors of the church For you will haue it onely ment of the Pastor Seniors and I thinke it signifieth more generally any which are lawfully appoynted to gouerne the church But whether it be one or more that hath this authoritie committed vnto him it is more to tell him than it is to tell twentie besides because he béeing in authoritie doth beare the office of a publike Magistrate who hath power publikely to correct that whiche was priuately cōmitted and therfore he that telleth one suche may wel be sayd to tell the Church bicause he telleth such a one as hath authoritie in the Church and is a publike person So that he riseth from priuate admonition to open complaint from priuate witnesses to a publike Magistrate and therfore this is to rise not to fal to procede not to goe backwarde But admit that mo than one is vnderstanded by the name of the Church whiche I also confesse yet doth it
in no pointes my purpose only in this place is to proue against the Admonition as I haue sayde that byshops had substitutes whiche being graunted it will soone fallout that they may as well haue Chauncellours Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Admonition In stead of Chauncellours Archdeacons Officials Commissaries Proctors Doctors summoners Churchwardens and suche like you haue to place in euery congregation a lawfull and godly Seigntorie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 125. Sect. 2. That is in stead of learned wise and discreete men you must place to gouerne the Church in euery congregation vnlearned ignorante and men most vnapt to gouerne for such of necessitie you must haue in most congregations Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 151. Sect. 2. In the. 125. page to the Admonition desiring that these may be remoued and the eldership established according to gods order M. Doctor answereth that that were to place in stead of wise and discreete men vnlearned ignorant and vnapt to rule Let M. Doctor take heede lest in allowing so well of the popish ceremonies not onely as tollerable but as fitte and then acquainting himselfe with the papists manner of speaking in saying that the people be ignorant and vnlearned he fall or euer he be aware into some worse thing Moses in Deuteronomy and Salomon in hys Deut. 4. Prouerbs place the principall wisedome in keeping Gods commaundements and in fearing God Prou. 1. And Dauid sayth that the secrets and the priute councell of the Lord is knowen to those whiche Psa. 25. feare him and I haue shewed out of S. Paule that he giueth to the spirituall man great discretion 1. Cor. 2. and iudgement of things If therefore there be in euery Church whiche feare God and keepe his commaundements there are both wise and learned and discreete en and therefore not to be spoken of so contemptuously as M. Doctor speaketh And God be praysed there are numbers in the Church that are able to be teachers vnto most of the Chauncellours in any matter perteyning to the Church and are able to giue a riper iudgement in any ecclesiasticall matter than the moste part of them can Io. Whitgifte Who knoweth not that the people for the most part be ignorant vnlearned and The people for the most part vnap to gouern vnapt to gouerne you know what Chrysostome sayth of them Hom. 2. in Ioh. And yet I do not take from them sufficient knowledge in things perteyning to their saluation nor that wisedome that Salomon or Dauid speaketh of nor yet the discretion that S. Paule meaneth 1. Cor. 2. But is euery man that shall be saued apt to rule and gouerne or doth Christ poure into them such gifts and graces miraculously as he did in the beginning of the Church commeth learning wisedome aptnesse to gouerne and suche like by inspiration onely and not by meanes I knowe there are many of the people that feare God and are sober and discréete the Lorde increase the number of them but on the other side you must knowe that some there be and that not the smallest number that thinke better of themselues than they deserue And I suppose that no manne will denie the moste parte to be vnfit for such functions and that euen of those that are godly many are farre vnméete to The absurditie of the Repliers assertiō gouerne But if your reason be sound then may the basest and simplest man keeping gods commaundements and fearing him be as apt to gouerne as the wisest man the most learned and of best experience in a whole countrie whiche is to greate an absurditie and to popular an argument True it is that to kéepe gods commaundementes and to feare him is requisite Godlinesse re quired in gouernours but all that be godly are not meete to gouerne and necessary in a gouernoure but yet as I saye not all those that feare God and kéepe his commaundements be apt and méete to gouerne These be the chiefe points of heauenly wisedome whiche bring saluation and whiche teache a man to gouerne himselfe in those things that perteyne to eternall life but there are other things also necessarily required in such as take vpon them the gouernment of others except you will say with the Anabaptists Christianis non est opus magistratu Christians haue no neede of a magistrate There may be therefore in euery Church wise learned and discréete men in matters perteyning to themselues and to their owne saluation and yet not méete to gouerne others there may be also méete men to gouerne others but yet peraduenture by the more part which is commonly euill disposed put backe from the Seigniorie In a word God hath appointed the multitude how godly and learned All the Repliers arguments tend to popularitie soeuer they be to obey and not to rule vnlesse indéede you will make the state popular to the which all your arguments tend Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 151. Sect. vlt. 〈◊〉 besides that the choysest are to be taken to this office this ought not to be forgotten that seeing good successe of thinges depende vppon the blessing of God and that blessing followeth the Church when the Lords order is kept simple men which carrie no great countinance or shew wil vndoubtedly do more good vnto the Churche hauing a lawfull calling than those of great porte which haue no such calling Io. Whitgifte But how wil you bring it to passe that the choysest may be taken for if the electiō go by the whole parish as it must then is it a thing vnpossible to be brought to passe in many parishes the most part being euil affected except you will vse violence and compulsion which is against the libertie that you séeke for The lords order is kept whē due obediēce is giuē to y e ciuil magistrate other that be How y e lords order is kept placed vnder him to gouern y e church of God For of this we haue expresse mētiō to y e R 13. 1. Ti. 2. 1. Pet. 2. it is cōfirmed by y e examples of y e old church vnder Moses om 13. Iosua Dauid Salomō Iehosaphat Ezechias Iosias and all other godly kings and Tim. 2. Iudges Likewise y e order of God is kept whē next to this supreme gouernour vnder 1. Pet. 2. God we reuerēce obey in y e Ecclesiastical state such as god hath appointed to take y e chiefe care gouernmēt of the Church vnder y e Prince be they Archbyshops Byshops or such like And therof also we haue expresse warrant in the word of God and that such as admitteth no other interpretation as 1. Tim. 3. Lit. 1. Hebr. 13. but as for 1. Tim. 3. your order of Seniors and kind of gouernment you haue no suche warrante in the T t. word of God And the places that you vse for your purpose be doubtfull and diuersly Heb. 13. interpreted by learned men wherefore not
as not to omitte the least would not be so carelesse for this Church vnder the Gospell as to omit the greatest Io. Whitgifte Tract 2. cap. 6 diuis 3. I tolde you before that this which you call the perfection of the Synagogue was rather a burthen than a perfection for God therfore prescribed vnto them a prescript forme of externall things that it mighte be a meanes to kéepe them from further inconuenience but to vs in such things he hath lefte a greater libertie and the perfection of the Church doth not consist in outward appearance but in spirituall giftes and therin hath the Lorde muche more plentifully and gratiou ly shewed his care for the Church vnder the Gospell than he did for it vnder the lawe Touching externall orders both of ceremonies and gouernment he hath lefte the disposition therof to his Church in many things as I haue proued in the beginning of Tract 2. this booke Chap. 4. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Page 92. Sect. 6. And where he saith that there was then which was called high priest and was ouer all the rest he did well knowe that y e cause thereof was (*) This was one cause but not the only cause bicause he was a figure of Christ and did represent vnto the people the chieftie and superioritie of our Sauiour Christ which was to come and that our amour Christ being come there is now no cause why there should be any suche preheminence giuen vnto one and further that it is vnlawfull that there should be any such (a) A Popishe non sequitur vnlesse it be lawfull to haue one head Byshop ouer all the Churche for it is knowne that that priest was the head priest ouer all the whole Church which was during his time vnto our Sauiour Christ. Io. Whitgifte The high priest was a figure of Christ so was Dauid and Salomon but yet was the high priest also appointed to gouerne other for order and pollicie and so was Dauid and Salomon The figure is taken a way and the kinde of Sacrifice but the office of gouerning remaineth still and is to be obserued as the state of the Church requireth Christ being come the office of sacrificing ceaseth but not the office of gouerning for Christ by his comming did not take away gouernment and pollicie no notfrom the 〈◊〉 state This reason of yours that that priest was the head priest ouer all the Church therefore if by A popish reason vsed by the Replyer his example we will haue an Archbyshop he must be such a one as shall gouerne the whole church is in déede a plaine confirmation of the Papistes reason for y e supremacie who thinke that they may reason in lik maner But I answere you as M. Caluine answereth thē Lib. inst cap. 8. Sect. 87. There is no reason that compelleth to extende that vnto the whole Caluine worlde which was profitable in one nation nay rather there is a great diuersitie betwixt one nation and the whole world Bicause the Iewes were compassed in on euerie side with Idolaters least they should be withdrawen through the varietie of Religion God did place the seat of his worship in the middest of the earth there he appoynted ouer them one prelate whom all should looke vpon that they might the better be conteined in vnitie Now when as true Religion is dispersed through out the whole worlde who dothe not see it to be absurde that the gouernment of both the East VVest should be giuen to one it is like as if one would say bycause one precincte of grounde hath not many gouernours therefore the whole world ought to be ruled of one president or gouernour I knowe that he maketh another answere likewise euen the same that you haue borrowed of him touching the figure but his first answere is more direct in my opinion And M. Nowell against Dorman reasoning as you do giueth him this answere Nowell It agreeth very wel with the estate of the Iewes that as they beyng one natiō had one chiefe Lib. 1. 63. Priest so is it good likewise that euery Christian nation haue their chiefe Priest or Byshop It agreeth not that bicause the Iewes one nation had one high Priest to gouerne them in doubtes therfore all nations through the world should haue one high priest ouer al other for not only the vnlikelyhood betwene these two but the impossibili ie of the latter is most euident Other learned men also ther be as Hyp rius Lib. 3 Method Theolog d uers others who answering this same argument of the Papists say that by it we may well proue that one Archbishop or Metropolitane maye gouerne one Prouince or one kyngdome but that it is to weake to proue that one Pope may gouerne all t e world Now be it you had rather giue strength to the aduersarie than lacke argumentes to the defense of your cause Chap. 4. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Line 1. And as for those titles chiefe of the Synagogue chiefe of the s nctuarie chiefe of the house of God I say that that maketh much against Archbishops Archbeacons for when as in steade of the Synagogue of the sanc uarie and of the house of God or tempee are come part cular churches and congregations by this reason it foloweth that there should be some ch f not in euery prouince or dioesse but in euery congreg tion in deed so ought there to be cer ain chief in euer congregation which should gouerne and rule the rest And as for the chief of the families of the Leuites chiefe of the families of the priests the same was obserued in all other tribes of Israell and by all these Princes ouer euery tribe nd fam le as by the Prince of the whole l nde God did as it were by diuers liuely pictures imprint in their vnderstanding the chiet ie and domination of our Sauiour Christe Besides this the order which was appointed in this poynt was obserued in all the tribes Io. Whitgifte These titles be as glorious as any that are now remaining in our church And my The Replye slippeth by the matter L. of Sarum speaketh o names to the which you do not answere one word but s k out other matter to blind the Reader with ▪ least he should beholde your follie But I will follow you You s y that in steade of the Syn gogues c. are come particular Churches and congregations c. and I say vnto you that they had thē particular Synagogues as well as we haue now particular Ch rches the whiche you your sel e in ffect haue confessed before And yo must vnderstand that one Christian common weale is but Pag. 22. line 1. one Church as it was among the I wes th rfore such offices of gouernment may be such in the Church as was 〈◊〉 the Iewes and such superioritie among ministers as was then amongst
Priests and euites And I maruell that you wil denie this especially seing that you would de vs to the ciu ll law of Moses wherof this is a portion You adde that by all these princes ouer euerye tribe and fainilie as by the prince of the whole land God did as it were c. all this maketh nothing against our 〈◊〉 xcept y u will also take away the Prince of the whole land ▪ As this order among the Iewes was obserued in al tribes so is it now in al Prouinces and Diocesse This is but slender 〈◊〉 ou bring and y t not to the purpose for the A swere speaketh of na es and you driue it to offices Indeede you almost in no place reason ad Idem which is a maniiest argumente that you are but a shiftyng cauiller Chap. 4. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Line 13. Moreouer these orders and pollicies touching the distribution of the offices of the Leuites and priests and touching the appoin ment of their gouernours were done of Dauid by the * aduise 2. Chro. 19. of the Prophets Gad and Nathan which receiued of the Lord by commaundement that whyche they deliuered vnto Dauid And if so be that it can be shewed that Archbishops and Archdeacons came into the church by any commaundement of the Lord then this allegation hath some force but now being not only not 〈◊〉 but also as I haue shewed forbydden euery man doth see that this reason hath no place but serueth to the vtter ouerthrow of the Archbyshop and Archdeacon For if Dauid beyng suche a notable personage and as it were an Angell of God durste not take vpon him to bring into the Church any orders or pollicies not onely not againste the worde of God but not without a precise word and commaundement of God who shal dare be so bold as to take vpon him the institution of the chiefe office of the Church and to alter the pollicie that God hath appointed by his seruantes the Apostles Io. Whitgifte You runne away with the matter as though all were cleare when as it is not so You affirme y t Dauid did apoint these orders pollicies touching y e distribution of the offices of the leuites Priests c. by the eduise of Gad and Nathan the prophets of God And for proof hereof you quote in the margent 2. Chron. 19. where there is not one word for your purpose or signifying any suche thing In déed in the 2. chro 29. there is affirmed the lyke thing But my L. of Sarisburie hath answered you that such negatiue reasons are very weake And if you wil denie it to be a negatiue reason from authoritie yet can you not denie but that it is as féeble an argument as almost can be For what if Dauid did appoynt these orders touching the distribution of the offices of the leuites priests c. doth it therfore follow that the church at no tyme may appointe suche offices as shall be thought méete for the gouernment of it according to the tyme places and persons where haue you learned of a singular example to make a generall rule or to frame an argumente ex solis particularibus In the. 2. Chro. 19. which you haue quoted in the margent there is a not able place Scripture alleaged against himselfe against you for there expresse mention is made that Iehosaphat set in Ierusalem of the Leuites and of the Priests c. for the iudgemente and cause of the Lorde and made Amariah the Priest chiefe ouer them neyther were they Iudges for the citie 2. Chron. 19. of Ierusalem onely but for the whole countrey And yet we reade not of any commaundement vers 8. that Iehosaphat had so to do Chap. 4. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93 Sect. 1. And where the Bishop sayth it is knowne and confessed that ther wanted many things to the persection of the Churche of the Iewes truly I doe not knowe nor can not consesse that that Churche wanted (*) This is directly contrary to your selfe any thing to the perfection of that estate which the Lord would haue them be in vntill the comming of our sauioure Christ. And if there were any thing wanting it was not for wante of good lawes and pollicies whereof the question is but for wante of due execution of them which we speake not of Io. Whitgifte Conueniet nulli c. Nowe can he agrée with anye other man that dothe not agree with him selfe For before after you haue recyted diuers thinges lefte to the T. C. contrarie to himself order of that Churche of the Iewes for the whiche they had no expresse worde You saye that you wyll offer for one that I bring that we haue lefte to the order of the Pag. 22. Sec. 2. Churche to shewe that they had twenty whyche were vndecided by the expresse word of God And heere you saye that it wanted nothing to the perfection of that estate how you wyll reconcile your selfe I knowe not or whether it be your pleasure not to respecte your owne credite so that you may séeme to discredite that whyche that notable Byshop hathe spoken but that whyche I haue alleadged of Iehosaphat 2. Chro. 19. dothe manifestly iustifye my Lord of Sarisburies saying and condemneth youres For there it is to be séene that in matters of gouernment orders were appoynted which neyther were commaunded by any expresse commaundemente of God neyther yet expressed in the worde of God But of thys matter I haue spoken before Chap. 4 the. 14. Diuision The third Reason VVhere the substance of anything is most perfite there the accidents be most perfite but Tertia ratio the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 Religion was most perfit in the primitiue Churche and yet there was then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo. The Ansvvere of the Byshop First this 〈◊〉 is not proued for it may vvell be doubted vvhether the Eius solutio ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 substance hath euermore most porfit accidentes And againe the substance of Religion is the same novve that it vvas then the difference if there be any standeth in accidentes and not in substance Therefore thys 〈◊〉 of substance and accidentes vvas not needefull In the primitiue Church God raised vp Apostles and Prophets and gaue them povver ex as the gifte of tongues the gift of healing the gifte of gouernment c. In place vvher of he hath novv giuen Vniuersities Scholes Byshops 〈◊〉 shops c. But you say there vvas then no Archbyshop So may you say that before king Saul there vvas no king in Israel So may you say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of late times there vvas neither Duke nor Earle in England So may you say 〈◊〉 the primitiue Church there was neither Deane nor person 〈◊〉 prebendarie And yet novv both in Ecclesiasticall and ciuill go 〈◊〉 these are thought necessarie Last of all vvhere you say there was no And by shop in the primitiue Church it is vvritten by many that S. Paul