barreth the heathen of necessary means to salvation whilst he seeketh not the true church with which to jown hands and amongst christians this invisibilitie supposed it were very hard to hold communion with her in the administration of the sacraments We then affirm and let our adversaries disprove it if they can that the Roman church hath bin always visible We affirm that the Roman church hath bin always catholike viz. universall The Romish church hath ever had a succession of true bishops and pastors derived from the Apostles still teaching the same unchanged doctrine in all substantiall poynts of faith All which going together and being onely found in her and no other church do evidently prove that she alone is truly Apostolicall and consequently out of her there neither is nor can be salvation To disprove us herin we require that a protestant church with these marks may be shewed to have bin always extant Or if they cannot do this as we well know they cannot let them labour to assign us another catholike church distinct from the Roman when she as they falsly suppose fell from the first truth Or at least they must shew us who were the true professors of protestancy in the immediate age before Luther began in what city town or countrey they dwelt and what writers speak of them which lived before our times If they cannot satisfie us in any of these demands in which alone we offer to joyn issue with them then do we think the day to be ours if they can name any who did both believe and professe the protestant doctrine in all points let them do it and then if we do not disprove them the day is theirs And seeing all is brought to this issue we wish your learned to encounter us in this only point and whatsoever they shall return for answer not belonging hereunto we shall account it impertinent and unworthy reply as not direct to our purpose which is to find out the true catholike and visible church Ridiculous it is to answer as some do that there were true believing protestants when Luther began but durst not for fear of fire professe their faith this wee say is to condemn them to have had no faith at all but to be a dissembling company of such as were neither hot nor cold Christ saying of such he that denyeth me before men I will deny him before my father in heaven Or if your men fly this difficulty we will joyn issue with them in the maintenance of that faith and religion into which we Englishmen were first converted by Austine a monk a man of God sent by Gregory the great bishop of Rome more then a thousand years since a faith confirmed by miracle from heaven and therefore must needs be true and never noted to differ from the common received faith of christendome in those days as appeareth by the severall epistles of the said S. Gregory to the bishops of Europe Asia and Africa with all whom he held communion of faith so as if Christ had a catholike church upon earth as needs he must S. Gregory was of it and it then being a true church we say holding still the same â—enets it must needs be so now Gods truthbeing like unto himself without change and therefore if an angell should come from heaven to teach us any other doctrine then we first received we are not to hear him the good seed being ever first sowed and the Galathians were worthily reprehended by S. Paul for not constantly retaining their first planted faith Or lastly if you desire to goe nearer to the times of the apoâ—â—les we will joyn with you to prove our faith in the days of Constantine the great who first built and opened christian churches and gave freedom for christians to come together and to know and publish to the world what was held by them which before could not so well be done by reason of the great persecutions in which the church had bin till then generally eclipsed Finis The PREFACE to the ensuing ANSWER {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} To the unknown reader BE not offended courteous reader at the epithete I give thee For I call him to witnesse whom the schools rightly term primam veritatem that I am in respect of my present condition to seek a man of quality and authoritie to whom wronged truth may fly for succour and shelter Albeit the ensignes are everie where displayed for the defence of the true protestant religion for which both sides ingage their persons and estates yet upon exact search it will be found that the flags and streamers lately in Ireland and now also in England are dyed with protestant blood And for my self in particular though in the former Halcyou days of peace I could scarce name more persons of worth and quality then patrons of my weak endeavours against the common adversarie yet now I may truly say with Gregory the divine epist. 31. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Notwithstanding aâ— Cynegyrus in a sea-fight against the Persians after his weapons were wrested from him caught hold on the ship with his right hand and when that was cut off with his left hand and after both with his teeth as Crassus the famous oratour when Philip the consul sorely threatned him for speaking so freely for the liberty of the senate answered like a true Roman senatour if thou wilt have me hold my peace in so good a cause thou must cut out my tongue which after thou hast pluckt out with my very breath my liberty shall resute and confound thy tyrannicall humour and proud insolence in like manner though I have lost both libras and libros all means of livelyhood and liberty too yet I will never be wanting in the defence of Gods truth against Romish Idolatry and tyrannis while I have a hand to write or a tongue to speak dum memor ipse mei dum spiritus hos regit artus Having therefore received a chalenge from a Romanist whose name I know not who defieth the host of the living God and like Paris in Homer {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} hath demanded a duell a single combat with any that dare to enter into the lâ—sts with him in the quarrell of the Romish church I could not contain my self though restrained at the present and unfurnished of my choicest weapons but accepting of the chalenge I have met with him in the field pitcht by himself I mean the controversie touching the perpetuall visibilitie of the true church and other difficult questions both historicall and theologicall depending thereon Now because our Romish adversaries conceive that they have most advantage in this dispute of all other and therefore seek to reduce all questions to it as you hear in the chalenge I hold it fit in this proamble to the ensuing encounter exactly to state it and set it upon its true
reformatione ecclesiae and Wicelius method concord PAR. VI Touching the visibility and invisibility of the church in a different notion CHALLENGE For to say as some protestants do the church was long invisible besides that it is contrary to many clear prophecies and predictions of the old testament it barreth the heathen of necessary means to salvation whilst he seeketh not the true church with which to joyn hâ—â—ds and amongst christians this invisibility supposed it were very hard to hold communion with her in the administration of the sacraments Answer What protestants affirm that the catholike visible church to wit the company of those who professe the true christian faith was a long time invisible We deny that the church was ever driven to such straights or reduced to such a paucitie or obscuritie much lesse invisibility but that new proselytes might have accesse unto her and her own members communicate with her in the pledges of salvation though not always without danger to their persons and estates And therefore when you fight against an invisible church professing christianity you fight also against an invisible adversary and pursue your own fancie as Antipho in Aristotle imagined that he drave his own image in the ayr before him Of this see more at large in the Preface PAR. VII Concerning the visibility of the Roman church and how the Papacie hath been opposed in former ages CHALLENGE We then affirm and let â—ur adversaries disprove it if they can that the Roman church hath been always visible Answer That a Roman church hath been always in some degree visible we yeeld you gratis but that the Roman church you mean hath been so we peremptorily deny When we grant that a Roman church hath been always visible our meaning is that since the christian faith was at first planted by the preaching of the prime apostles and watered with the blood of many millions of martyrs there hath been always in Rome and the territories thereof and provinces belonging to it a church professing christian doctrine in the beginning most purely in the middle more impurely but in the end and at this day most corruptly And what gain you hereby that the Roman church you mean that is that church or rather that faction in the church for papatus est in ecclesia papatus tamen non est ecclesia which professeth the present Roman faith and adhereth to the Pope as supreme head of the church hath been always visible It will no way follow christianity may be and was many hundred yeers without popery and a church in Rome also but as far different from the present Roman church as Sicily in Verres time was from the more ancient Sicily and therefore as the oratour sought for Sicily in the most fruitfull parts of Sicily so we at this day are to seek for the Roman saith and church so much commended by the apostles in Rome it self and find it anywhere in the christian world rather than there To instance in the controversie about the head which is the head of all controversies between us and from whence you take your denomination of paâ—ists and papalins we deny that there was any christian church at Rome or else-where for many hundred yeers after Christ which acknowledged the Popes supremacie or built their faith upon his infallibility St. Paul we know accounted himself nothing inferiour to the chief apostles If your eyes be so dazled with the brightnesse of the Popes triple crown that you cannot see Pauls equality to Peter and consequently the equality of other bishops to the pope in the letter of the text yet you cannot but see it in the fathers commentaries Hoc dicit saith S. Ambrose quia non est minor neque in praedicatione neque in signis faciendis nec dignitate sed tempore that is this the apostle speaketh to wit I am nothing inferiour to the chief apostles because he is not lesse or inferiour neither â—n the gift of preaching nor in the gift of miracles nor in dignity but in time What not inferiour to S. Peter no not to S. Peter if S. Chrysostome take him right As the Apostle calleth the Gentiles uâ—circumcision so he calleth the Iews circumcision And he sheweth himself to be of equall honour with the rest and he compares not himsâ—lf to others but to the chief of them shewing that every of them held the same rank of dignity {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} saith Oecumenius {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} see how he matcheth or equallizeth himself to Peter Nay which is more remarkable Pope Leâ— who when he took Peter alone extolleth him above the skies and admitteth him after a sort in consortium individuae Trinitatis that is into the fellowship or copartnership of the undivided Trinity yet meeting with Peter and Paul together he doth equall homage and reverence to them both and forbiddeth us to put any difference between them in this or any other respect De quorum meritis virtutibus quae omnem superant dicendi facultatem nihil diversum sentire debemus nihil discretum quos electio pares labor similes mors fecit aequales of whose worth and vertues which surpasse all ability of speech we ought to have no diverse or different opinion of them whose calling to the apostleship made them equaâ—l and their travels in their office alike and their martyrdom parallel Here he compareth them not onely in regard of their personall gifts and labours but of their calling and function electio pares S. Paul then in Pope Leo's judgement may go every where hand in handwith S. Peter he hath the right hand of him in the Popes seal as is confessed by Bellarmine who much troubleth himself to yeeld a sufficient reason thereof And as S. Paul stood upon even ground as it were with S. Peter and witâ—…tood him to the face so did Polycarpus contest with Anicotus and Polycrates with Victor against whom he wrote a synodicall epistle and S. Cyprian with Pope Stephen And therefore AEneas Sylvius afterwards Pope had good reason to affirm though Bellarmin gives him the lye for it that before the councell of Nice parvus respectus ad Romanam ecclesiam habebatur that is that there was little account made of the Roman church or bishop At the councell of Nice which was neither called nor ratified by his authoritie but the Emperor Constantines all the preeminence he had amounted but to a primacy of order and his authority and jurisdiction exceeded not Rome suburbicas ecclesias as Ruffinus hath it After the councell of Nice he contented himself with the style of Urbis Romae episcopus the bishop of the city of Rome The church of Carthage forbad under pain of excommunication any in Carthage to appeal from their courts ad transmarina judicia intending to the see of Rome In the synods held at Calcedon and Constantinople the patriarch of
bases In this question touching the visibilitie of the Catholike Church three terms are to be explicated 1. Church 2. Catholike 3. Visible First church by church we understand not a particular congregation or company confined to one certain place parish city or country for such a particular Church is not always visible Where there have been visible professours in many famous cities and countries there are few or none now and where there were none before as in divers parts of America there are visible churches now The canâ—lesticks follow the light and when the light that is the preaching of the gospel is removed the congregations that is the candlesticks are also removed and from what câ—y or country soever both are translated there is darknesse and in darknesse no visibilitie Secondly catholike is taken in a double sense logicall and theologicall logicall for a generic all notion of a church which is predicated of every particular church tanquam genus de specie as when we say the Greek or the Latine is a christian church In this sense church is the object of the understanding not of the sense and catholike so taken is intelligible not sensible or visible For universalia qua talia non cadunt sub sensum Secondly theologicall for the whole companie of all that are called to the knowledge of the truth and outward means of salvation by Christ having Gods word and ordinances among them The catholike church so taken is spread over the face of the whole earth and though not in the whole lump yet in every part and parcel thereof is visible so long as that part and parcel continueth a member or portion of the catholike church and though some members like branches of the golden tree in the poet be cut off or wither yet others rise up in their places or upon some other boughs or arms of that great tree Thirdly visible when we say the catholike church in a theological notion is visible we mean in respect of outward profession of faith and publike use of sacraments common to all christians not in respect of the inward grace of the spirit and proper marks of the elect for so it is not object to sense Those marks are like the white-stone in the Apocalypse which no man knoweth but he that receiveth it and in this notion the whole companie of the elect is by our divines called the invisible church not that the elect in it are not seen but because this cannot be seene or known by sense that they are elect A child seeth a shining stone which is a diamond topaz or some precious gem but he knoweth it not to be a true jewell all men knew Nathaniel to be an Israelite but our Saviour only the beams of whose eyes pierced into the hidden corners of his heart could say behold a true Israelite in whom there is no guil That a man is a true Israelite that is hath true faith is a matter of faith and the catholike church taken for a companie of such as they are such is an article of our creed credo sanctam ecclesiam catholicam I beleeve there is such a holy catholike church but neither I nor any man else can discover it to be such by sense Yet to avoyd all mistaking the church we beleeve in the creed is not a distinct church from that which we see in the severall and particular members thereof For the elect which make the invisible church are in the visible as the soul is in the bodie or a diamond in a ring or the apple in the eye or gold in the oare and we may properly call them the church of the church as Demosthenes called Athens the Greece of Greece and Cicero Leontium the Sicilie of Sicilie Of the catholike church as it is invisible we dispute not now but as it is in the parts and members thereof visible and our question is rather de modo than de re not whether the church be always visible but how farre it is visible and whether such visibilitie be a proper and inseparable note thereof We acknowledge there hath been and ever will be a true church visible but not always eminent conspicuous but not always illustrious known but not always nutorioâ—s fair and specious but not always pompous and glorious For what shew could a church make when it consisted but in Abel and he was murdered and afterwards in Enoch and he was taken from the company of men to walk with God or at the death of our Saviour when as Alenâ—â—s reacheth the true faith remained onely in the blessed virgin and one candle alone left on Easter evening burning after all the other are put out in the Roman Church implyeth as much if we may believe the interpreters of that ceremonie Certainly the Church was brought to a low ebb when the deluge overflowed the whole world and only eight persons were preserved in the ark and it is a question whether all of them were eternally saved I am sure one of them namely Cham was cursed of God Shew me the glorious lustre of a visible church in the days of the Patriarks pilgrimage in Mesopotamia or their posterities bondage in AEgypt or captivitie in Babylon in which sad times they who lived and belonged to the true church sighed to God often in private but were not suffered to pray to him in publike they lifâ—ed up their hearts no doubt continually but not their hands they were so streightly manacled they often looked towards the holy city and the place where Gods honour dwelt but they could not stir their foot towards it for they were fettered All their sacrifices they could then offer were their broken and contrite hearts and their sweetest incense their burning desires and their drink offerings their tears which they powred out by the waters of Babylon and made them waters of Marah salt and bitter No marvail that the spouse of Christ hid her self in a strange land and then covered her face when it was swoln with grief and blubbered with tears but did she ever so in her own country and kingdom Did she ever wear a mask in Judah and Israel Did she ever there shut up her self in her closet and water her plants Certainly she did as we read 2 Chro. 15. 3. Now for a long season Israel had been without the true God and without a teaching priest and without the law but when they in their trouble did turn to the Lord God of Israel and sought him he was found of them v. 5. and in those times there was no peace to him that went out not to him that came in but great vexations were upon all the inhabitants of the countries What face of a church was to be seen in the days of Elijah who maketh this grievous complaint against Israel 1 King 19. 10. The children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant thrown down thine altats and slain thy prophets with the sword and I even I only
most part taken in the latter sense as in the creed of Athanasius whosoever will be saved must hold the catholike faith that is the orthodox faith which he there setteth down for at that time when he wrote that creed of his was not catholike in the first sense that is generally and uâ—â—versally received if that be true which Vincentius writeth the pâ—…son of the Arrians did not infect only a portion of the church but 〈◊〉 a manner â—ainâ—ed the whole world insomuch that almost all the laâ—â—n bishops being surprised by fraud or by force had a mist cast before their eys In neither of these two senses of the word can either your church or your faith or your persons be termed catholike Not your church for Dr. Reynolds hath long ago demonstrated in his second Thesis thaâ—… present Roman church is neither the catholike church of Christ nor a sound member thereof not your faith for that as I said before so farre as it differs from ours is patcht up of many heresies not your persons for they are singular or individuall and therefore cannot be catholikes that is â—â—iversall Here you use to alledge for your selvs a passage out of Pacianus christian is my name and catholike is my sirname But what is this to you unlesse you could prove that Pacianus held your Trent faith when you prove that I will immediatly turn Roman catholike till you shew some affinity between your faith and his you cannot challenge his sirname catholike As for his meaning in this his elegant motto christian is my name and catholike is my sirname he alludeth evidently to the manner of the Romans and some other nations who used to give their children two names at least one common as Marcus or Cneius or Caius the other proper as Cicero or Crassus or Anthony or Pompey and the sense his words carry is this christian is a name which I have in common with all that in any sort beleeve the gospel and are neither Jews not Paynims but catholike is my proper name whereby I am distinguished from divers sorts of christians to wit all those who professe christianity in generall yet not purely but with mixture of some heresie or schismatically sever themselvs from the communion of the catholike that is the universall church and truly the name catholike in his days as also in the days of S. Austin when the hereticks were but a handfull and lurked but in corners here and there was a distinctive term for then the hereticks in regard of their paucitie could not with any colour pretend to the name catholike but afterwards when heresies became catholike that is spread over the whole face of the church and the orthodox christians were far fewer in number the title catholike ceased to be a note of distinction and the word orthodox was used in stead thereof to distinguish true beleevers from all miscreants hereticall or schismaticall PARAG. II. Concerning the attributes of our christian faith true divine and infallible Challenge That there is always one and but one true divine and infallible faith professed by the church of Christ without which none can please God or attain to salvation c. Answer When I read your preface and compared it with that which followeth I could not but think of Oretes pots sent for a present to Polycrates in which there was a little gold laid on the top and under it nothing but trash for after these two golden assertions of the unity and immutability of the true divine and infallible faith laid as it were in the top of your discourse there is nothing to be found under them but lead and trash as shall appear hereafter in the gaging it I grant there is one and but one true divine and infallible faith but you should have explicated how but one and in what sense Divine and infallible faith hath been always and is one for substance though not for circumstance all beleevers even from Adam were though not in name yet in truth christians Christ and his meritorious actions and passions were the object of their faith as well as ours but they beleeved in Christ to come we in Christ that is come we and they resemble the spies that carried the bunch of grapes on their shoulders the former who went before looked backward the latter who went behind looked forward on the grapes they looked forward with the eys of their faith on the incarnation passion resurrection and ascension of Christ to come we look backward on these as past they saw Christ in foregoing types we in succeeding sacraments Yea but it may be objected that many new articles of faith are daily declared and many new theologicall conclusions found out else how should knowledge encrease How then is the faith of the church always one For answer hereunto I will borrow Vincentius his decision what saith he is there no profiting in Christs school no growth in faith and the knowledge of salvation Yes very great but provided always that this progresse be a going forward in the same way to heaven not a turning out of the way an improvement of faith no change that is holding the same principles of faith we may and ought daily by the studies of scriptures deduce new conclusions but such as are vertually contained in those principles not such as are any way repugnant to them so long as we mutilate not our creed by dis-beleeving or mis-beleeving any article of it and whatsoever we offer farther to be beleeved we cleerly and evidently conclude from scriptures or other prime and fundamentall articles of christian religion the faith of the church is still one Secondly this faith is said to be divine in a three-fold regard 1. Of the object which is God 2. The efficient which is the spirit of God 3. The motive which is the word of God or the authoritie of the speaker which is divine and because God cannot deceive nor be deceived hence it followeth that the faith which is grounded upon his word is infallible and such is the faith of the reformed church of England one divine and infallible whereas on the contrary your romish faith is neither one nor divine nor infallible Not one for you differ one from another in many substantiall points of faith as is proved Paragraph the X. Nor divine for the last resolution of your faith is unto the church a company of men subject to error Nor is it infallible for it is partly grounded upon unwritten traditions which vary partly upon the decrees of Popes and councels which contradict one the other the generall synod held at Ariminum contradicted the first of Nice in the point of Christs deity the councell at Frankeford contradicted the second councell of Nice in the point of images the generall councell held at Lateran contradicted the generall councell at Basil in the point of supremacie and I could with a wet finger produce divers decrees of Popes out
men capable of the Popedom Pope Ioan and Benedict the ninth chosen Pope at ten years old were no such if faithfull pastors and bishops truely discharging their pastorall function in feeding Christs flock by diligent preaching and exemplary living name me two such Popes for every hundred of years since Christ Phyllida solus habeto Iâ— by true bishops and pastors you understand rightly consecrated and canonically elected and invested Pope Pelagius the first was not so who obtained the papacy by an imposture noâ—Sylvester who aspired to it by art magick noâ—Eugenius who was at the first promoted by faction and afterwards held it by might in despight of the councell of Basil if by true bishops you mean orthodoxall bishops and preachers of the truth Liberius was no such branded with the note of Arrianism by St. Ierome and Pope Damasus Honorius was no such for he was condemned for the heresie of the Monotholites in three generall councels confirmed by three Popes Iohn the 23. was no such who is charged in the councell of Constance with the denyall of the immortality of the soul and the life to come and for that and for other blasphemies and enormous crimes deposed by the councell To come yet neerer to the quick when you stand so much upon succession and make it an infallible note what mean you by succession locall succession or doctrinall that is a succeeding of bishops and pastors in the same place onely or a succession not only in the same place but principally and especially in the same orthodoxall and catholike doctrine which is the only true and properly so called succession as Nazianzen affirmeth {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} This excellent passage consisting of divers agnominations and gracefull figures in the greek cannot be translated but to the losse and therefore omitting the english of it in stead thereof I will impart unto you a very pertinent note upon it which I found in a friends book contrived by him into these elegant Iambicks {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} If you take succession in this latter sense you take up again a beggarly fallacy called petitio principii you prove idem per idem to wit that your Romish saith is the true faith and the Romish church the true church because your Romish bishops and pâ—… have always succeeded one another in the profession of one and the self-same orthodoxall faith If you take succession in the former sense for bare locall succession or the sitting of divers bishops one after another in the same chair you make a â—oodden argument much like to that wherewith the fool in Dion persâ—â—ded himself that he must needs be some great commander because he had sat in Caesars chair or that wherewith Vibius Râ—fus was more than half induced to beleeve that he had Tullies eloquence infused into him by sitting in Tullies pew and leaning upon Tullies desk By this argument you might prove profane Photius to be an holy bishop because he succeeded Ignatius an holy man and Athanasius to be an Arrian heretick because he succeeded an Arrian bishop and our renowned martyr Cranmer to be a papist because he succeeded Warham a papist and cardinall Pool to be a protestant because he succeeded Cranmer a protestant Nay by this reason you might prove pope Adrian who trampled upon the Emperour Fredericks neck blasphemously abusing the words of the psalmist thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder to be a pattern of humility Pope Hildedrand who entred like a fox and ruled like a lyon and dyed like a dog to have been a pattern of simplicitie Pope Stephen the 6. and Sergius the 3. who pulled their predecessor Formosus out of the grave the one cutting off his finger the other his head and casting his carkasse into Tiberis to have been patterns of humanity Pope Boniface the 7. who robbed S. Peters chair of all the jewels and pretious things in it to have been a pattern of a faithfull steward Pope Iohn the 12. who gave orders in a stable gelded his Cardinals drank an health to the devill and at dice called for help of Iupiter and Venus to have been a saint Pope Sylvester who gave himself wholly to the devill to have been a devoto Pope Sixtus the 4. who ware cloth of gold at home in his private house eased nature in stools of silver and deckt his harlâ—t Tiretia with shoos covered with pearl to have been a modest and frugall man Pope Alexander the 6. who carnally knew his own daughter and Pope Iohn the 13. who was slain in the very act of adultery to have been virgins nay by this argument you might prove Pope Ioan who was said to be brought on bed in the street in a solemn procession to have been a man because she succeeded men in that see The heralds who have blazon'd the arms of the popes are Platina Genebrardus Luitprandus Sigonius Sigebertus Martinus Polonus Baptista Fulgosus Iovianus Pontanus Wesselius Groning Let me give you good counsell in your ear invent better arguments for popery than these or charge your elect ladies sub sigillo confessionis never to utter any of them before a learned protestant for fear of scandalizing your Romish faith Let this suffice for your note succession I will now canvas your note unity PARAGRAPH X. Touching the 4. note of the church viz. unity CHALLENGE Teaching the same unchanged doctrin in all points of faith Answer To help out your former argument drawn from the note succession you add another note as you make it the note of unity and consent in doctrin at least in all substantiall points of faith against which I except first that it is no proper mark of the Church secondly that this mark is not to be found in your Romish church Although nothing better becommeth the church of God than to be at unity in it self yet certain it is that both â—nity may be without the true church and even in the purest times the true church was without unity The enemy shortly after the apostles time sowed such tares of dissention among the good wheat in the field of the church that the heathen in their theaters derided the christians for the multiplicitie of sects among them On the contrary as the poet said magna inter molles concordia so we may often observe too great an unity in the enemies of the gospel conspiring against the Lord and against his anointed The Sadduces might the Nestorians may the Arrians did brag of their consent in matter of faith Who art thou saith the Arrian Emperour to Liberius then orthodox who troublest the peace of the whole world Will you
body of Christ is in very deed and sensually handled and broken in the priests hands and ground and chewed with the teeth of the faithfull as the form of subscription enjoâ—ned to Berengarius by pope Nicholas extant in the canon law implyeth others like not of this grosse manner of eatinâ— and for Nicholas his words they put a colourable glosse upon them Some hold that mice may eat the body of Christ others doubt of it and others deny it Some hold the consecration to be made by these words Hoc est corpus meum others are of another mind 11. Touching the pope Some teach that he may err as pope and in cathedra others will by no means grant that the pope sitting in his chair may be ever beside the cushion Some teach that the pope hath power to depose kings and dispose of their kingdoms others can find no ground at all in scripture or reason for this temporall power of the pope 12. Touching coâ—â—celâ— Some hold that the councell is above the pope others that the pope is above the generall councell and both sides bring into the field pares aquilas pila minantia pilis pope against pope and councell against councell nay councell and pope against councell and pope and here you are at your wits end These and such like controversies nay speculations of far lesse moment are matters of faith when we differ from you or among our selvs about them Forsooth your determination maketh matter of faith be the question never so flight or curious your suspence makes it a neutrall point be the matter never so expedient for resolution Nor in points resolved by the church can the generall submission of the popes subjects be accounted union when as it is constrained by the strong hand of authority suppressing all contradiction rather than proceeding from any voluntary and free consent of judgements as appeareth by your clipping the tongues of Stella Ferus anâ— very many other of your own authors when they speak any thing of your errours or corruptions PAR. XI That the notes above-named are not found in the Roman church CHALLENGE All which going together and being onely found in her and not in another church do evidently prove that she alone is truly Apostolicall and consequently out of her there neither is nor can be salvation Answer When Phasis in Martial being but a peasant put himself into a rich sute of apparell and having the garb of a gentleman thrust himself amongst the gentlemen into the theater and there fell a commending the new edict of the Emperour touching the placing of all sorts of citizens according to their ranks saying tandem commodius licet sedere nunc est reddita dignitas equestris c Now we may sit without trouble now the gentry have recovered their right Before he had ended his speech in comes Lectius the Emperours officer to execute the edict and by vertue of that edict which Phasis was so highly extolling turns him out of his seat as not due to him by any title or colour save of his purple coat Istas purpureas arrogaâ—tes Jussit surgere Lectius laâ—ernas Whether Phasis his case and yours are not alike let those judge who dare look upon truth without such false spectacles as you pâ—… upon the noses of those whom you nuzell in superstition You set forth visibility and universality and unity and succession in golden and glorious colours as the proper marks of Christs true church by which marks and notes you are discovered to be none of the tâ—â—e church sorex suo indicio For as hath in part already and shall hereafter be shewed more at large if either your cause or heart will bear a second encounter popery was not visible till many hundred years after Christ when the man of sin began to be revealed universall popery was never at unity with it self it is not at this day and for the succeeding of Roman bishops it hath been such both in regard of the violent fraudulent symoniacall and schismaticall manner thereof as also in regard of the persons succeeding in that see who have been branded with the foul marks of iâ—cest and the sin not to be named and the black and hellish marks of schism heresie atheism and necromancy that if there could be a succession in hell it could not be imagined to be worse PARAG. XII Amplitude and eminent visibilitie no mark of the true Church CHALENGE To disprove us herein we require that a protestant church with these marks may be shewed to have been always extâ—â—t Answer To disprove you herein it is not requisit that a protestant church with these marks be shewed it is sufficient to shew that these are not proper and inseparable marks of the true church To â—anverse your whole discourse we need no more than to exâ—â—â—ge and rub out the false marks you have drawn of the church which may be done with a wet finger Of your â—â—itie and succession we suppose you desire to hear no more as for eminent visibilitie and uâ—iversalitie it seemeth strange that amplitude should be the mark of Christs little flock eminent visibilitie and â—ustre the character of the woman which fled into the wildernesse and there hid her self a long time If the outward conspicuousnesse of the church may not be sometime obscured and eclipsed S. Ambrose was out who compared her in this respect to the moon You your self confesse that before the days of Constantiâ—e the church was generally eclipsed and I may as certainly add that not long after the days of Constantine during the raigâ— and fury of Arriâ—â— Emperours and bishops bearing the greatest sway and occupying the chiâ—f sents in the church she was again eclipsed or rather turned into blood and yet neither the heathen nor the Arrâ—â—â— persecution by the judgement of the best learned may be compared to that {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} that last and greatest tribulation by anti-christ at which time as those of your own side confesse the publike sacrifice shall cease And as S. Austine saith expressely â—cclesia non apparebit impiâ—s ultra modum saevientibus the church shall not appâ—â—r wicked men raging and cruelly persecuting her aboue measure You see what becomes of your note of eminent visibilitie and splendour now for amplitude and multitude of professors if it were safe following it if that were the touch-stone of truth if religion must go by voices of the many the Greek church would carry it at this day from you the Mahumetans from it and the idolatrous gentiles from all For as a learned and judicious man hath exactly calculated it the christians at this day possesse neer about a sixt part of the known inhabited world the Mahumetans a fifth part and the idolatrous gentiles two thirds or little lesse so that if we divide the known regions of the world into thirty equall parts the christians part is as five the
Mahumetans as fix and the idolatrous as nineteen O lamentable estate of the world Quis talia fâ—â—dâ— temperet a lachrymis how much larger is the heard of satan than the flock of Christ if you restrain your note of universalitie to such as professe the worship of God in Christ and thereby exclude the Payniâ—â—s and Mahumâ—tans yet so it will not stead you for it is most certain that the partie of christians which oppose the papacy is incomparably the greatest in number If to the protestants in the western church you add the eastern churches professing christian faith in a great part of Europe Asia and Africa they will bear down the scale to the ground To speak nothing of the Abâ—ssinâ—â— and AEthiopians largely dispread in the kingdoms of Prâ—ster Iohn to omit the patriarch of Muscovia the archbishops of Moldâ—via and Walachia Under the Turk there are foâ—â— pâ—triarchs at this day to wit the patriarch of Constantinople of Alâ—xâ—ndria Antiochia and Ierusalem and that these patriarchs are not like some of your bishops whom Pâ—normitan fitly calls nullatenenses appeâ—rs by the catalogue of archbishops subject to the pâ—triarch of Conâ—… sâ—t down by Curopalata which are these 1. The archbishop of Casâ—rea in Câ—ppâ—dâ—cia 2. Ephesus 3. Heracleâ— 4. Aâ—… 5. 〈◊〉 6. Sardis 7. Necomedia 8. Nicea 9. Calcedon 10. Mitylene 11. Thessalonica 12. Laodicea 13. Synadae 14. Ieonium 15. Corynth 16. Athens 17. Patrae 18. Trupezuntium 19. Larissae 20. Naupactus 21. Adrianopolis These archbishops have many bishops under them the archbishop of Ephesus 2. of Moldavia 3. of Walachia 3. of Heraclea 7. of Thessalonica 9. of Corynth 10. of Athens 11. of Larissae 13. of Muscovia 17. not to over-charge your memory with more under the patriarchs All those christians besides many more of the Greek church professing Christ differ from your Roman church in many substantiall points of faith They â—cknowledge no supremacy of the Pope have no faith in his infallibility nor trust in his pardons they disclaim merits and works of supererogation purgatory transubstantiation are no articles of their faith they allow marriage of priests they cannot away with the mutilation of the sacrament by depriving the laytie of the cup they teach the perfection and sufficiencie of the scripture they have the scripture and the church lyturgie in their severall languages understood by their people The Muscâ—vits in the Muscâ—vitish the Arâ—bians in the Arabick the Georgians in the Iberick the Carmonians in the Carmanick the Colâ—hians Slavonians Grecians in their known Greek or other peculiar languages therefore it is not safe for you to put the truth of religion upon this poynt Were the rule of multitude of visible professors of religion certâ—in and infallible Miâ—hea were to be condemned and the 400. prophets of Ahaâ— to be justified Ieremy to be abandoned and all the prophets that were in Iuda and Ierusalem whom â—ose against him to be followed Nay Christ the truth it self to be traduced and reproved and the coâ—â—cell of the chief priests and elders held against him to be maintained and approved Had you lived in Athanasius his days we know where to have had you questionlesse not of his side who had all the world in a manner against him as the speech of the Arrian Emperouâ— to Liberius imports Whâ—â— a petty part art thou of the world Who art thou that â—etteâ—â— thy self against the world In S. Iohnâ— time the whole world was set on wickednesse and in Athanasius his time upâ—n heresie â—oâ—us mâ—â—dus saith S. Hierom gemuit se factâ—… Arrâ—anum the whole worlâ— grâ—aned because it became Arriaâ— What becomes now of your note of universaâ—itie To this poynt I earnestly desire particular satisfaction which I have not yeâ— received from any Româ—… catholike or universalist as they would be called PAR. XIII Where the true church was when the Roman fell CHALLENGE Or if they cannot do this as we well know they cannot let them labour to assign us another catholike church distinct from the Roman when she as they falsly suppose fell from her first truth Answer We cannot prove our true church by the false marks you have set down neither can you prove your false church by the true marks set down by us Eminent visibilitie illustrious ample unversalitie and anti-anti-christian combination under one head the Pope are no marks as hath bin shewed of the true church And what then if we cannot prove our doctrin by them Then you say let them labour to assign us another catholike church distinct from the Roman when she as they falsly suppose fell from her first truth I have already shewed a church more ample than yours and not only distinct from your Roman but opposite to it as much as we in the most sundamentall poynt to wit the papacy yea so opposite that the first sunday in Lent when they solemnly curse all hereticks as Arrius Macedonius Eutyches Nestorius Apollinaris c. they pronounce in like manner an Anathema to the Pope But what an argument is this If you cannot prove your church by the fore-named false marks then assign us some other church distinct from the Roman in which these marks are conspicuous To passe by this your lame inference and make the best of such poor stuff as you bring out of your own words a man may pick out such an argument either the Roman church continued still the church or when she sell away some other church must be assigned which persevered in the truth else there should be no Church in the world If this be that you would say the answer to this your objection is very easie on our parts for we charge not the Latin church with defection from the true faith universally but the chief governoâ—rs and leaders thereof or to speak more fully that prevalent and predominant faction in the church of Rome that hath born sway for some hundreds of years which we say is plunged into many dangerous and pestilent errors and superstitions yet not into all errors at one leap but they sunk into them by degrees when then this faction in the Roman church which we call the papacy or the kingdom of anti-christ or the Mystery of iniquitie threw it self into an open gulf of error or heresie we say that that part of the Roman church and elsewhere which both secretly and openly impugned such error and heresie and in as much as in them lay stopt such corruptions at the entrance were the true church as for example when the fore-named faction by Boniface the third Phocas his means brought first into the church the Luciferian title and anti-anti-christian power of oecumenicall or universall bishop and head of the whole church they in the Greek and Latin church which opposed it were the true church When the same faction by Irene and Pope Adrians means decreed the worshiping of images in the second councell of Nice those who made head against them and
opposed this idolatrous decree in the councell of Frankenford and synod of Paris together with Ionas bishop of Orleans and Charles the great and many in England who wrote against that blasphemous and idolatrizing synod were then the true church When by the strength of the same faction transubstantiation first stole in secretly and after was openly established by a decree in the councell of Laterane Scotus Erigena and Bertram Elfricus and Berengarius and their schollers in the Latin church which were in number like the sand of the sea were the true church When Hildebrand began to restrain the clergie by a law from marrying Nicetas the Abbat and the bishops of Italy France and Germany who withstood him they holding no fundamentall errors in any point of faith for ought can be shewed were the true church Lastly when the same faction prevailed so far in the councell of Constance as to decree the mutilation of the holy sacrament depriving the laity of the cup contrary to Christs institution and the practise of the primitive church Iohn Husse Ierom of Prague and the lords of Bohemia and the known remainder of the Waldenses besides many millions of christians both in the Greek and Latin church who oppugned and resisted openly or secretly that sacrilegious sanction many of them to the effusion of their blood were the true church whose followers iâ—â—â—hâ—mia and in France and elsewhere continued even till Lut hers time who was expected before he came and came not alone into the Lords battell as your Alfonsus a Castro testifieth in these words Noâ— prâ—diit solus Lutherus tanta est hujus seculi infoelicitâ—s sed multâ—… hareticorum agmine seu quodam satellitio stipatâ—â— processit qui illâ—… expectasse videntur ut sub illius vexille postea militâ—…t illi 〈◊〉 nomina dederunt Philipp Melancthonus Faber Capito Lambertus Conradus Pelicanus Andreas Osiander Martin Bucerus allique progessis temporis catervatim se illius faâ—iliae inseruerunt neither came Luther out alone such is the unhappinesse of this age but guarded with a great troop of hereticks who seemed to look for him that afterwards they might fight under his banner for presently Philip Melancâ—hon Faber Capito Lambert Conrade Pelicaâ— Andr. Osiander Martin Bucet gave their names unto him and others in processe of time in great numbers inserted themselvs into his familie PARAGRAPH XIV Of protestants in the age immediately before LUTHER CHALLENGE Or at least they must shew us who were the true professors of protestancy in the immediate age before Luther begâ—â— in what city town or country they dwelt and what writers speak of them which lived before our times Answer First I answer that we need not give any particular or punctuall answer to this your demand a question grounded upon a wrong supposall is sufficiently answered by overthrowing the ground now the ground of this question is this supposall that if there were any protestants before Luther there must needs be some authenticall and particular record of them producible by â—s at this day Protestants there might be then yet not now extant at least for 〈◊〉 to come by I pray how many millions not only of right beleevâ—… but hereticks also have been since Christs time who were never upon a particular record Were there not a kind of hereticks called Acephali because their head and first author could never be known Again how many records and writings especially of this nature have perished either by commands of authority or by casualty restore us the works of Wickliff which you burnt and many other authors whom you have either extinguished or of late by your Index Expurgatorius clipt their tongues or you keep close prisoners in the Vatican and this question of yours will soon be answered In the mean while as Petrus Molineus saith wittily you deal with us herein as if a thief who hath stoln away a mans purse and made away the mony should demand of the true man what is become of your money If you had any such sums of mony in what bag in what purse where are those bags and purses c If such a question as you make here had been put tothe prophet Elijah to wit who were those 7000. the oracle of God speaketh of who never bowed the knee to Baal In what city town or country dwelt they the prophet could not have satisfied at that time this demand for he thought himself to be there left alone the children of Israel saith he have forsaken thy covenant thrown down thine altars and slain thy prophets with the sword and I even I only am left and they seek my life to take it away If I should put the like question to you who were thosein the age immediately before Christ came in the flesh who sincerely expounded the law and gain-sayed the Scribes and Pharisees their corrupt glosses refuced by our Saviour Matth. 5. 21. in what city or town dwelt they What writers speak of them which lived before Christs time I know you would be to seek for answer When the woman in the Apocalyps fled into the wildernesse where she was fled one thousand two hundred and threescore days and the saints Heb. 11. wandred in wildernesses and lay in dens and caves of the earth can you tell me into what wildernesse she fled or they wandered In what caves and dens they lay Yet have many worthy champions of our faith met with you even in this field and come off with credit as Abbot against Hill Usher do succes ecclesiâ—… Fox acts and monuments Field of the church Humphrey his answer to Campiâ—n his third reason The author of Catalogâ—â— test veritatis Doctor White in his way Iohan. Munster in Vortleg nobilis discursus Ioachimi Camerarii histor. narratio de fratrum orthodoxorum ecclesia in Bohemia Moravia and Polonia Ioh. Lidii Waldensis The publisher of the history of the Waldenses in France for 400 years and more Nichol Vignier eccles. histor. Birkeck the protestants evidence Peruse AEneas Sylv. his story of the Bohemians fascic. rerum expetendaruÌ„ fugiendarum you â—hal find more for the continuance of our Church till Luthers time then ever you will be able to râ—â—ell Verily Rainerius the inquisitor though entcrtained against us yet speaketh so much for us that he deserveth a fee of us the sect saith he of the Waldenses or Lionists is more pernicious to the church of Rome then all other sects First because it hath been of longest continuance for some say it hath endured ever since the apostles time Secondly because it is more generall than any other for there is almost no country into which is doth not creep Thirdly for that all other sects do bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blasphemies against God but this hath a great appearance of godlinesse because they live justly before men and beleeve all things well concerning God and all the articles
this thirst but from some knowledge and fore-tast of this heavenly liquor Nemo currit ad gratiam nisi per gratiam no man followeth after grace but by the power of grace Saint Chrysostom some hundreths of yeers before Austin the monk receiv'd his commission from Gregory the great speaketh of the efficacie of the word preached the power of the christian faith in this Island And Sulpitius Severus reporteth that in the councell of Ariminum assembled An. Dom. 359. three Britain bishops were present and before this councell Athanasius makes mention of certain Britain bishops who subscribed to the councell of Sardiâ—a An. Dom. 347. And before this councell King Lucius wrote to Eleuther bishop of Rome to assist him in establishing the christian faith in his dominions which work God so blessed in his hands that Dicetus and Reade affirm that in the place of 28. heathenish priests called â—lamines and archiflamines there were substituted in his time so many bishops archbishops To go up higher yet and to come even within sight of the apostles Theodorâ—â— affirmeth that S. Paul after his first imprisonment at Rome preached the Gospel among the Britains and it is not unlikely that then he converted Pudens and Claudia his wife our countrey-woman not so much enobled by the praise of Martial Claudia câ—ruleis cum sit Ruffina Britannis Edita cur Latiâ— pectora plobis habet as by the mention of her in the sacred scriptures Eubulin saluteth thee and Pudens and Claudia Some yet ascend higher and from Gildas collect that England received the faith of Christ about the death of Tiberius What other construction can you make of these his words interea glaciali frigore rigenti Insulae velut longissime terrarum secessu soli visibili non proximae vetus ille non de firmamento solum temporali sed de summa etiam coelorum arce tempora cuncta excedente universo orbe praefulgidum sui coruscum oftendens tempore ut seimus Tyberii Caesaris summo c. By this account it should seem that Britain received the christian faith before Rome which as I will not aveâ—â— so I dare confidently affirm on the other side that Britain had a christian king before Rome had a christian Emperour residing in it neither do we ow so much to Roâ—â— for Austin the monk as Rome oweth to our nation for Constantinâ— the Emperour Neither can you blanch this your errour by restraining the name of English when you say we Englishmen were c. to those Anglo-Saxones who entred this land about or a little before Austin the monks arrivall for who taketh the word Angli or Englishmen now in that restrained sense How know you that we Englishmen now living are descended from those Anglo-Saxones rather then from the Britains or Danâ—â— or Norâ—ans who all successively inhabited this land And what if these Angli or Anglo-Saxones in Beda's time distinguished from the Picts then also inhabiting here were not first converted to the christian faith by Austin the monk I am sure Bede affirmeth that the Eastern Angli or English were firâ—â— gained to Christ by Fâ—lix the Northern by Paulinus and the middle-landers by 〈◊〉 find me ouâ— if you can a fourth sort of English first converted by Austin the monk To coâ—clude if it b◠〈◊〉 which you affirm that there is but one true divine and infallible faith professed by the church of Christ and it hath been proved that the christian faith was professed in this Iland many hundreths of yeers before Austin the monk his time it followeth that we Englishmen were â—â—t first converted by Austin to that faith and religion of which you speak without which no man can be saved but of Austin and S. Gregory more hereafter PAR. XVIII Of the faith of Gregory and Austin the monk CHALLENGE Or if c. a faith confirmed by miracle from heaven and therefore must needs be true and never noted to differ from the common received faith of Christendom in those days as appeareth by the severall epistles of the said S. Gregory to the bishops of Europe Asia and Africa with all whom he held communion of faith so as if Christ had a catholike church on earth as needs he must S. Gregory was of it and being then a true church we say holding still the same tenets it must needs be so now Gods truth being like unto him without change And therefore if 〈◊〉 angell should some from heaven to 〈◊〉 us any other 〈◊〉 thâ—â— we first received we are not to hear him the good seed being ever first sowed and the Galatians were worthily reprehended by S. Paul for not constantly retaining the first plâ—â—ted faith Answer If by S. Gregoâ—ies care and Austin the monks pains the wells of salvation which long before that time had been digged in these countries but in divers places were â—…ed up by barbarous Payâ—â—ms sworn 〈◊〉 to the crosse of Christ were any whit opened and the water cleanâ—â—â— from 〈◊〉 â—â—nish filth and superstition we blesse God and 〈◊〉 the instruments for it The miracle you speak of if any were wrought it was to confirm the common christian faith not any Râ—mish additions thereunto or superstitiâ—ns For the monk himself he stands or falls to his own master The water as S. Aâ—â—stin noteth which passeth through a leaden 〈◊〉 into a garden waters the garden and makes it fruitfull yet it produceth 〈◊〉 such good effect upon the pipe even so oft-times it falls out that the instruments of much sanctifying grace to others retain not the like measure in themselvs Somewhat it was that the British monks could not perswade themselvs that this Austin was as you say 〈◊〉 â—an 〈◊〉 from Godâ— his insolent and irrespective carriage towards them argued in their judgement that he could be no scholler of Christ the great master of humilitie And for S. Gregory himself who sent him though he were a great light and ornament of that age in which he lived yet the Latin proverb was verified even in him omnibus Punicis malis putriduÌ„ granuÌ„ inesse No pomgranat so sweet and sound in which a curious eye may not find one rotten grain Some rotten grains your own criticks have observed in him but not neer the coat there he is sound In the substantiall points of faith now in controversie between us which he had occasion to touch upon he is truely orthodox and clearly ours I will instance in many severall points and all of them of importance 1. Then for the title of oecumenicall bishop and supream head over all bishops he declaimeth against it as prophane sacrilegious perverse proud insolent anti-christian and Luciferian contrary to the Gospel contrary to the canons and what not And very ridiculous is the answer of cardinall Bellarmine hereunto in his second book de Rom. Pont. cap. 31. That universall bishop may be taken two ways either as it signifietha power and
if God strictly examin them or that true holinesse and sanctifying grace may be lost or that masses may be celebrated without communicants or that princes have not authority over ecclesiasticall persons or that images are to be adored or that men may merit by their works eternall life or that a child of God ought to doubt of Gods mercy and may not be assured of his salvation or that it belongeth not to princes to call ecclesiasticall assemblies or that the church in the most strict sense consisteth not of the elect only or that the whole church consisting of laity as well as clergy may not participate the mysteries of the body and blood of Christ entirely drinking of the holy cup as well as eating of the bread Let him be accursed Methinks I hear you already cry out with her in the Poet Heu patior telis vulnera facta meâ—s Oâ— with the eagle in Iulians mâ—tto feeling her self deadly wounded with an arrow feathered out of her own wing Nostris configimur alis PARAG. XIX Concerning the faith of Constantine CHALLENGE Or lastly if you desire to go neerer to the times of the apostles we will joyn with you to prove our faith in the days of Constantine the great who first built and opened christian churches and gave freedom for christians to come together and to know and publish to the world what was held by them which before could not so well be done by reason of the perfecâ—tions in which the church had been 〈◊〉 then generally eclipsed Answer From S. Gregory you step up immediately to Constantine the great and at once stride over 300 years in which time the prime and flower of the Greek and Latin fathers lived and dyed would none of them father your Church You take an oath if you be magistri in theologia to expound scripture non â—isi juxta unaâ—… câ—â—sensum patrum according to the unanimous consent of the fathers this joynt consent can very hardly be found in the interpretation of the â—…ures before Constantiâ—â—s time because few before that time commented upon the holy scripture at least whose works are come to our hands and therefore you should have especially instanced in the fathers from Constantines time to S. Gregoâ—â—s but as Festus answered Paul so think I fit to answer you Caâ—…em appellâ—…â—d Câ—sarem ibis you have appealed to Constantine and to Constantine you shall go of whom I may say truely that which the Fre 〈…〉 sometimes spake before him gloâ—ingly tu no 〈…〉 illâ—◠〈◊〉 faciâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Britains by â—â—y 〈◊〉 for though Liâ—… heâ—… not Iustus goeth about to rob us of this brouch and brightest lustre of our nation denying us the honour of his birth as you do of his faith yet I doubt not but to make good against him and you that Constantine is ours body and soul and to resolve you in point of his birth and native soyle which was this our Iland I refer you to Baronius for his faith to Eusebius Socrates Sozomen Arnobius Lactantius Minutius Foelix Athanasius Epiphanius and Greg. Nazianzen and divers others who lived in the same time or not long after him Let the faith generally beleeved and received in the age wherein this blessed Emperour lived serve as a touchstone to examine our pure and precious and your drossie and counterfeit faith and first let us begin with the ground of all faith the holy scriptures 1. We teach that the canon of the old testament consisteth of 22. books only excluding the apocryphall which your councell of Trent confoundeth with the canonicall Let the first quaere then be whether did the church in Constantines time hold with your canon or ours To this let the councell of Laodicea speak qua autem oporteat legi in authoritatem recipi haec sunt Genesis Exodus c. These books which ought to be read and received as authenticall and canonicall are these following Gen. Exod c. In which catalogue none of the apocryphall books are mentioned Let Athanasius inform us who reckons but 22. books of the old testament as we do and after him Greg. Nazian. most expresly brandeth the apocrypha with a note of bastardy {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Which Greek verses a wel-willer to your church hath translated into Latin At tua ne libris fallatur mens alienis Hunc habeas certum numerum a me lector â—â—ice Tot nempe Hebrâ—â— quot sunt elementa loquelae Quicquid pratorea est hand inter certa loc anduâ— The Greek word for word is thus to be Englished I have sâ—â— down 22. books of the old testament agreeable to the number of the Hebrew letters â—â—d 〈◊〉 â—e found any besides these â—… to be counted among the true and genuine books of the old Testament 2. We with Tertullian adore the pleâ—â—tude of scriptures aâ—â—ibing to them this perfection that they contain in them all things necessary to salvation You maintain on the contrary that the written word alone is not a sufficient and perfect rule and therefore you add unto it the unwritten word which you call cradâ—ion Which part did Constantine take and the church in his time let Athanasius be heard in this case Sufficiunt per se sacroe divinâ— us inspiratae luâ—rae ad veritatis indicationem The holy inspired scriptures are sufficient of themselvs for the declaration of the truth let â—aâ—tantiâ—â— be heard Cyprian was so ravished with the excellent knowledge of the holy scriptures that he was content with them alone upon which faith is built Let us hear Constantine himself who sitting in a golden chair as president and moderator in the first and most famous councell of Nice recommendeth the books of the old and new testament to the fathers assembled in that councell in these words the books of the evangelists and apostles and the oracles of the ancient prophets do plainly instruct us what to conceive of divine matters therefore setting aside all enmity and discord let us from the words inspired by God take the resolution of those things that are in question which most christian direction of this most noble Emperour swayed much with the fathers in that synod yet cardinall Bellarmin makes light of it and gives the Emperour a slurr for it lib. 4. de verbe Dei non scripto cap. 11. Respondeo hoc testimonium non esse tanti faciendum erat enim Constantinus magnus Imperator non magnus ecclesiae Doctor I answer that this testimony is not of so great moment for Constantine was indeed a great Emperour but not a great Doctor of the church 3. We teach that the wood of Christs crosse is not to be worshipped at all much lesse with divine worship you teach on the contrary that the crosse of Christ is to be adored cultu latria that is with the highest kind of
worship which is proper to God so Aquinas determineth Par. 3. quaest. 25. â—r 2. Illi exhibemus cultum latriae in quo ponimus â—â—em salutis clamat enim ecclesia O crux ave spes unica hoc passionis tempore auge piâ—s justitiam reisque dona veniam ibid. Crux Christi in qua Christus crucifixus est tum propter representationem tum propter Christi membrorum coutactum 〈◊〉 adoranda est We yeeld divine worship to that in which we put our trust but we repose the trust of our salvation saith he on the crosse of Christ for so the church singeth all hail O crosse our only hope in this time of passion increase righteousnesse in the godly and grant sinners pardon and hereupon concludeth that the crosse on which Crist was crucified as well because it representeth Christ as also because it touched the members of his body is to be adored with divine worshop by which reason all christians which then lived were bound to worship with divine worship Malchus his ear and Iudas his lips and the asses back on which Christ rode and the dust in the floor on which he wrote and the water in which he washed and the oyntment which was powred upon him and the souldiers fists that buffered him and what not that toucht any part of his body Yet Andradius is not ashamed to follow Aquinas his steps non diffiâ—emar nos praeclarissimam Christi crucâ—m adorare cultu latriae we do not deny but that we worshop the most excellent crosse of Christ with divine worship And Gretzer treads in the same path in his book De Cruce And Cardinall Bellarmin scorns to follow any of these he runs before them all in the idolatrots worship not only of the wood of the crosse on which Christ hung but also of all crosses whatsoever made after that fashion Nos omnes cruces adoramus quia omnes sunt imagines verae crucis we adore all crosses because all crosses are images of the true crosse Was this the beleef or practice of the church in Constantines time Let us enquire of S. Ambrose and he will tell us that S. Helen the mother of Constantine was far from worshipping the wood of the true crosse which she found by miracle â—â—â—enit â—itulum Regeâ— adoravit non lignum utique quia hic gentilis error est vanitas impiorum sed adoravit illum qui pep 〈…〉 ligâ—◠〈◊〉 she found the title she adored the king not the wood verily that is an heathenish errour and wicked vanity but she worshipped him who hung on the wood Let us enquire of Mâ—â—utius Foelix whether the church in those days worshipped or had crosses in their oratories The heathenâ— indeed as he there brings them in objected it to the christians that they worshipped the crosse colâ—nt quod â—erentur to which jear of the heathens Mirâ—tiâ—â— answereth cruces nec colimus nec optamns we â—â—ither worship crosses nor desire them 4. We teach with the apostle that marriage is honourable among all men and that it is the doctrin of devils to prohibit marriage in any condition of men be they of the clergy or of the laity You maintain the contrary both in your doctrin and practice priests among you are tyed to a single life and some of you blâ—sh not to say that a clergy man had better keep a concubine than his married wife praestat concubinam alere quam uxerem Was this the judgement or the practice of the church in Constantines age did not bishops and priests then marry Let Athanasius inform us who in his epistle ad Dracontium writeth thus you may observe many unmarried bishops among us and many married monks and again many married bishops and unmarried monks By which testimony of Athanasius it appears that in his time not only bishops but monks also might and did marry Sozomen maketh mention hist. lib. 1. cap. 11. of Spiridion the bishop of Cyrus his wife and children {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} He was married and had children and it was no disparagement unto him in his ecclesiasticall function word for word but he was not therefore worse or inferiour in those things which belong to God No more was Hilary the famous bishop of Poictou Nor the father of Nazianzen who lest his bishoprick to his son Gregory the flower of all the Greek fathers of whom thus Mantuan Praesule patre satus â—aâ— tune id jura sinebant Pastorale pedum gessit post funera patris We see the practice in Constantines time let us now hear the judgement of the church touching the practice Eusebius brings in Clemens inveighing against the despisers and contemners of marriage in this manner {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} that is what will these marriage haters condemn the apostles for Peter and Philip gate children And Socrates hath a remarkable story to this purpose there being a motion made in the councell of Nice to deprive married priests of society and conversation with their wives old Papnutius though himself an unmarried man yet mainly opposed that motion disswading the fathers of the councell from laying such a heavie yoak upon the clergy alledging that marriage is honourable among all men and the bed undefiled That all men could not bear such a restraint that too much strictnesse in this kind would be hurtful to the church that the company of a man with his lawfull wife is chastity 5. We teach that the elements of bread and wine are types-and figures of the body and bloud of Christ which we truly receive in the sacrament of the Lords supper spiritually by saith not carnally with the mouth You on the contrary that the bread and wine are turned by transubstantiation into the true body blood of Christ which you beleeve that you receive with the mouth and chew with the teeth Did the church of Christ in Constantines time beleeve transubstantiation or carnall manducation Let us heat what Athanasius and Eusebius and Greg. Nazianzen and S. Ephrem have delivered touching this point Athanasius illustrating those words of our Saviour in the 6. of Iohn it is the spirit which quickneth the flesh profiteth nothing c. saith Hic de utroque â—arâ—â— siâ—ct spiritu suo locutus est spiritâ—… a câ—râ—e discrimâ—n a vit. ut non solum in eo quod oculis apparebat sed naturam quoqâ—â— invisiâ—â—leâ— credentes disceremus ea quae loqueretur non carâ—â—lia esse sed spiritualia quot enim hominibus corpus ejus suffecrffeâ— ad â—â—buâ— ut universi mundi alimonia fieret Sed propterea ascensioâ—â—â— sâ—â— in câ—lum mentionem fecit ut eos a corporals intellectâ—â— abstraheret ac deinde carnem suam de qua locutus erat cibum è supernis â—â—lestem spiritualem alimoniam ab ipso donandaâ— intelligerent quae enim loquutus sum vobis inquit spiritus
vitâ— suâ—â— Quod perinde est ac si diceret corpus meum quod ostenditur datur pro mundo in cibum dabitur ut spiritualiter unicuique tribuatur fiat singulis tutamen praeservatioque ad resurrectionem vitae aeternae Here he speaketh both of his flesh spirit distinguisheth his spirit from the flesh that beleaving not only that which appeared to outward sense but also his invisible nature we might learn that those things which he spâ—ke were not carnall but spirituall for to how many men would his body have sufficed for meat that it might be the food of the whole world But therefore he maketh mention of his ascension into heaven that he might withdraw them from the corporall understanding of his words and that they might understand that the flesh of which he spake was a supernal meat a celestiall and spirituall food to be given by him unto them The words saith he which I have spoken unto you are spirit and life which is all one as if he had said my body which is given for the world shall be given for meat that every man may receive it spiritually and that it may be made to each a strengthning and preserving them to the resurrection to eternall life Eusebins writeth thus of the sacrament Christus cum seâ—â—sum singulare sacrificium patri obtulisset statuit {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} quam memoriaâ— {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} in mensa ejus celebramus Christ when he had offered himself once for all a sacrifice to his father appointed us to offer the memory of that sacrifice to God which memory we celebrate by the sacred signs or symbols of his body and â—loud upon his table and in like manâ—â—r in his 8. book he saith that Christ delivered to his disâ—iples the syâ—bolâ— of his divine dispensation viz. bread and wine that is coâ—…ding them to make an image or representation of his own body S. Basil and S. Greg. Nazâ—anz accord with Eusebius S. Basil in his Liturgy calleth the sacrament all bread {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} coâ—poris domini that is a type 〈◊〉 figure resembling Christs â—ody or answering unto it And Greg. Nâ—zâ—aâ—z pleaseth himself with the same word {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} If her hand treasured up at any time any part of the holy signs or antitypâ—â— of the precious body and blood of Christ that she mingled with her tears c Out of these and the like phrases of the fathers thus I frame an argument against you no types figures images representations of Christs body are â—is very body But the church in Constantiâ—â—â— age beleeved the elements of bread and wine to be images as Eusebius types or anti-types as S. Basil and Nazianzeu calleth them to whom Bellarmin adjoyneth Theodoret in his first dialoâ—ne Aâ—â— carius Egyptius in his Homilies and Dionysius in his Hierarâ—hâ— and confesseth that they spake of the elements of bread and winâ— after consecration therefore the elements of bread and wine after consecration are not the very body and blood of Christ The miâ—â— in this syllogism is confessed the major is strongly â—ounded on thaâ— axiom Opposit◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cideâ—â—â—imul attribui â—equeunt that is opposite things cannot be affirmed at the same time of one and the same thing but a shadow and a body an image and a face 〈◊〉 â—â—gn and the thing signified by it are among the rank of those opposites which Logicians call relative opposita and therefore as it iâ— a good argument this is Alexanders picture therefore it is not Alexander himself this is Nebuchadnezzâ—râ— image therefore it is not Nebuchadmezzâ—â— himself this is a shadow therefore it is not a body so likewise it followeth necessarily the bread and wine after consecration in the judgements of Eusebius Baâ—â— Naâ—… 〈◊〉 Dâ—…us Theodoret and others of that agâ— are types images shadows figures of Christs body and bloud theâ—â—ore they are not turned into the very body bloud of Christ 6. We teach with the apostle to the Hebrews that now to wit since Christs offering himself upon the altar of the crosse for the redemption of the whole world there remains no more sacrifice for sin You teach on the contrary that there is daily offered in the masse a true reall and properly so called propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the living and the dead Whether did the church in Constantines time celebrate your masse or our communion I am sure Minutius Foelix implyeth that in his time the christians had no altars Putas saith he nos occultare quod colâ—mus si delubra aras non habemus Dost thou think what we conceal what we worship because we have no images nor altars And as they had no materiall altars in his time so neither corporall sacrifices Hostias domino offeram saith Minutius cum sit litaâ—ilis c. * Shall I offer sacrificeto God to whom good mind is an acceptable sacrifice he that keeps innocencie supplicates to God he who doth justice offers to God he who saves a man from danger slayeth the best sacrifice these are our sacrifices I wonder how he forgot the sacrifice of the masse certainly if Christ be there really offered he is optiâ—â— a victima the best sacrifice that ever was offered Lactantius enameleth the former golden sentence of Minutius Hic verus cultus est in quo mens colentis seipsam Deo immaculatam victimam sistit this is the true worship wherein the mind of the worshipper offereth it self as an â—â—spotted sacrifice to God If these testimonies are not of strength enough to demolish your materiall altars and abolish your sacrifice of the masse behold Eusebius Saint Chrysostome and Saint Basil offer us as it were axes and hammers to beat them down Saint Basil on the 1. of Isay writeth thus refusing the multitude of the legall sacrifices he requires this one that every man should reconcile himself and offer up himself to GOD as an holy and lively sacrifice by his reasonable service offering unto God the sacrifice of praise forasmuch as the multitude of those legall sacrifices is now abolished one sacrifice in this end of the world is approved once offered for the abolishing of sin Eusebius Demonst. Evang. l. 1. interpreteth the clean oblaâ—ion fore-spoken by the prophet Malachy which all papists take for the sacrifice of the masse to be our hearts purified by faith and the incense there mentioned to be the {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} incense of prayer and the sacrifice of the new testament to be a contrite spirit and speaking of the Lords supper he saith that therein we offer {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} a memoriall of Christs sacrifice and S. Chrysostome we offer the true sacrifice of Christ {non-Roman}
Aug. l. 18. de civ. Dei c. 20. Roma est altera Babylon prioris filia Babylon was the first Rome and Rome is as it were the second Babylon Apoc. 18. 7. Babylon the great is fallen is fallen and is become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foule spirit and a cage of every uncleane and hatefull bird Roma Ruens Romes Ruine Being A SVCCINCT ANSWER To A POPISH CHALLENGE Concerning The antiquity unity universality succession and perpetuall visibility of the true Church even in the most obscure times when it seemed to be totally eclipsed in the immediate ages before LUTHER By DANIEL FEATLEY D. D. MIC 7. 8. Rejoyce not against me O mine enemie when I fall I shall arise when I sit in darknesse the Lord shall be a light unto me Leo Seâ—m. in natal Petri Pauli Non â—inuitur persecutionibus ecclesia dei sed augetur magis Ager dominicus segete ditiore vestitur dum grana quae singula cadunt multiplicata nascuntur Theod. comment in epist ad Philippen {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} LONDON Printed by Thomas Purslow for Nicholas Bourne at the South entrance of the Royall Exchange 1644. PErlegi hunc polemicum tractatum cui titulus est Romes Ruine atque ut valde doctum nervosum dignum censeo qui prelo mandetur Iohannes Downame A Table of the speciall contents I. THe Popish Challenge II. The preface to the Reader wherin the main and principall question concerning the visibility of the Church is stated and determined according to scriptures III. The answer to the Challenge Paragraph I. Concerning the name catholike p. 1 Para. II. Concerning the attributes of our christian saith one true divine and infallible p. 3 III. That divine faith is confined to the written word of God and is unchangeable p. 5 IV. Touching the propagation of the christian Faith to all ages by pastors and teachers lawfully sent p. 8 V. Concerning the perpetuity of the true Church p. 7 VI That the true church was never simply invisible nor so obscure but that it had true professors known to the members therof though often invisible to the adversaries p. 12 VII That the Roman Church that is a Church holding the present Romish Trent-faith hath not bin alwayes visible p. 13 VIII That the Roman Church neither hath bin nor is at this day catholike viz. universall p. 16 IX That the Roman Church hath not had an uninterrupted succession of true bishops and pastors derived from the Apostles p. 17 X. That the Roman Church hath not the pretended mark of unity and that Papists differ among themselves in many substantiall points of faith particularly mentioned p. â—â— XI That the Roman Church is not truly an Apostolicall church much lesse the only Apostolicall church out of which there is no salvation p. 26 XII That amplitude and eminent visibility are no markes of the true Church and obiter of the large bounds of the greek church pa. 27 XIII Where the true Church was when the Roman fell from her first faith p. 30 XIV Where and who were the true professors of the reformed Religion in the immediate age before Luther p. 32 XV That Questions de fide cannot be determined by meer humane stories p. 37 XVI That all who make not open profession of faith in time of persecution are not to be condemned for hypocrites p. 39 XVII Of the first conversion of the english nation to the Christian faith p. 40 XVIII Of the faith of Gregory the great and that for substance it was the same that we professe at this day is proved by instance in 12 main points of difference between the reformed and the present Roman Church p. 43 XIX Of the faith of Constantine the great and that the church in his dayes maintained the same doctrine with us is proved by the testimonies of the doctors of the Church who flourished in that age p. 50 Indiculus authorum A. G. Abbot Abulensis Adrianus AEneas Sylvius Alfonsus a Castro Almaine Alvarez Ambrosius Med. Anastasius Andradius T. Aquinas Athanasius Augustinus B. Barclayus C. Baronius Basilius mag. Beda Bellarminus Benno Card. Berengarius Bertram Bilson Birbeck Bonaventura M. Bucerus C. Cajetanus Canus Capito Catharinus Chrysostomus I. Cocleus Constantinus Contarenus Curopalata Cyprianus Cyrillus Hieros D. Damasus Dicetus Dionysius Arâ—op Driedo E. Elfricus S. Ephrem Epiphanius Erasmus Eusebius F. Fabritius Ferus Field Fisherus Fox Fulgosus G R. Gallus Genebrardus Gerardus Gerson Gildas Glaber Rodolphus Gratianus Gregorius M. Gretserus Ies. H. M. Hart. Helvicus Hieronymus Hilarius P. Homerus Hugo de sanct. vict. L. Humphredus I. Huz I. Iacobus Christop. T. Iamesius Ignatius Illyricus Fl. Innocentiâ—s Ioachimus Ab. Ioachimus Ca. Ionas Aurel. Irenaus Invenalis L. Lactantius Lambertus Geasomb P. Lombardus Luitprandus Lucius Tudensis I. Lidius M. Macarius Aegy Mantuanus Marselius P. Martialis Martinus Luther Ph. Melancthon Minutius felix Metrophnes Crit. P. Molineus N. Nazianzenus G. Neâ—â—rionsis Nioephorus Nicetas Abbas O. G. Occaâ— Orthwinus Osiander P. Pacianus Parsonus Ies. Pellicanus Petrus de Alliacâ— Photius Al. Pighius Plichdorâ—ius M. Polonus Pontanus H. Pragensis S. Prosper Q. Quirâ—ga Card. R. Rainerius I. Raiâ—oldus Rhemist Roffenfis S. Salviaâ—â—s Scotus Dans Erigâ—â— Sigebertus Sigonius Sisselius Socrates hist. D. Seto Stella Suarez Sulpitius Severus T. R. Tapperus Tertullianus Theodoretus Theophilus Alex. C. Turrecremata V. Vasquez Vbertinus a Casaâ—s Vignierus Virgilius Vortleg Vsherus W. Wesselus Groning G. Whitakerus F. White Wiâ—â—lius Widdrinâ—â—nus Wimpina I. Wâ—lâ—ius THE CHALLENGE WE catholikes say that there is always one and but one true divine and infallible faith professed by the church of Christ without which none can please God nor attain to salvation this one true faith generally preached through the world was not to cease with the Apostles and their immediate hearers but was by Christs promise to continue unchanged to the worlds end For so 't is said Mat. ult. behold I am with you all dayes even to the consummation of the world and John 14. The holy Ghost whom my Father will send in my name he shall teach you all things This divine truth once established to the end it might continue was to be derived to posterity not by angels sent to teach particular persons nor by illuminated brethren of Amsterdam still pretending new light but by a continued succession of known visible pastours and bishops lawfully ordained and sent to preach it perpetually in despight of all new sectaries and novellers whatsoever Whence we say it followeth that not for six hundred years only as many protestants grant there was a true church free from spot of error but likewise in all ages following there ever was and must be such a church in the union wherof all sorts might be saved For to say as some protestants doe the church was long invisible besides that it is contrary to many clear prophesies and predictions of the old Testament it