with him that hath gone 800. because I have not gone further whereas I had a neerer and safer way to my journeyes end viz by Scripture by demonstration by confession of my adversaries CHAP. X. Fisher NEither did hee sufficiently prove them he named to bee Protestants but by such false suppositions and bad definitions c. Rogers in his 1. Reply That my suppositions are false you say it I deny it when you shew any reason to convince them of falshood I will disclaime them If my definition bee bad you should have mended it and so much I requested you to doe and doe request it againe and againe But why is my definition bad why my suppositions false and why shifts because that Arrians Anabaptists or whatsoever other Sectarie may by the like defend the same persons to have beene of their Religion and Sect. What suppositions you meane I know not if you meane my distinctions I shall answer you when I come to your particular exception against them As for my definition it was this and thus delivered Master Fisher I desire you therefore to expresse without ambiguity the termes of this question whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages what you meane by Church what by Protestants what by visible I will deliver my opinion in defining a Protestant Church The Protestant Church is a society of men professing the faith expressed in the Canonicall Scriptures acknowledged to be such in the Primitive Church comprized in the Apostles Creed explained in the other two Creedes of Nice and Athanasius ministring the Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper by men of lawfull calling and ordination Such a society as this was in all ages Ergo The Protestant Church was in all ages Thus farre in my former Reply this was the definition I brought and none other You say an Arrian may by this definition defend that those persons by me alleadged were of his Religion or Sect so may the Anabaptists or any other Sectary as you say what other Sectaries you meane I know not as for the Anabaptist I will answer you where you have made more full mention of him As for the Arrian because here only you name him here I will reply unto you concerning him You say that my definition may agree with an Arrian for so it must if thereby he may proove those to whom this definition doth belong to be of his Religion then which nothing could be spoken more ignorantly if you thought as you wrote or more impudently if you knew the contrary being so manifest a truth as nothing that ever happened in the Christian Church is more frequent in Ecclesiasticall Histories in Fathers in Councells then that Arrius was condemned in the Nicene Councell and the more full explication of the Apostles Creed was made in that Councell onely to exclude and condemne Arrius which explication is commonly called the Nicene Creed to the same purpose did Athanasius compose his explication of the same Creed I make mention of both these in my definition saying that the Protestant Church professeth that faith comprised in the Apostles Creed explained in the other two Creeds of Nice and Athanasius All these three doe say that Christ is God Arrius doth deny it these are contradictories can you reconcile them if you can you will doe more then all the Divines all the Philosophers could doe nay more then God himselfe can doe The Apostles Creed saith that Christ is the onely begotten Sonne of God and therefore God as the begotten Sonne of man is man the onely begotten Sonne of God because he alone is the Sonne of God by generation all others either by creation or by regeneration The Nicene Creed saith Christ is begotten of the substance of the Father God of God true God of true God Athanasius his Creed runnes wholly on the same straine that Christ is God that hee is uncreate eternall incomprehensible Almighty Arrius denyed all this in denying him to be God This definition I alleadge not as proper to the Protestants distinguished from other Churches but common to all true Christian Churches for two reasons first my drift is not to proove that onely the Protestants make the Church as I have fully expressed in my first Answer My words speaking to Mr. Fishers 4th proposition were these I would gladly know what they meane by those words if the Protestants be the true visible Church whether so as if we alone who are called Protestants were of the Church and no others wee leave such enclosing of Commons to the Romanists we chalenge it not we are a true Church not the true Church we are a part not the whole we include our selves we exclude not others whether Graecians Armenians Aethiopians Spaniards or Italians c. so they deny no fundamentall parts of the faith either directly or by consequence 2. Because there can be but one definition of one Church and such is the Catholick Church of Christ acknowledged to be and this one definition must accord and may be verified of every particular society that professeth the faith of Christ and ministreth those Sacraments which were ordained by Christ as necessary unto all men under the government of lawfull Pastors for these particular societies are of the same nature as the whole Partes homogeneae quarum idem nomen cum toto eadem nominis definitio parts of one kind with the whole and one with another which have the same definition because they have the same nature and essence as every drop of blood is blood and every little peece of flesh is flesh and have all the same definition As therefore when I would proove my selfe to be a man I would use no other definition then animal rationale a reasonable creature endued with a living sensible body Haec Articulis lex definiendi for singularia non habent definitionem nisi speciei particular and individuall things have no proper peculiar definition of their owne but all of one kind or species have the same definition so being to proove my selfe a Christian I will use no other definition then that of Christians in generall viz. that I hold the faith of Christ am admitted by baptisme into his visible Church wherein I doe continue under the direction and government of my Pastors If you should reply that is no good definition because it belongeth to you of the Roman Church to those of the Greeke Armenian Aethiopian Indian Churches and to all other sects of Christians as well as to me I answer that unlesse it doe belong to all Christians it were no good definition as animal rationale were no good definition of a man unlesse it did belong to every particular man excluding none for this is the rule of defining this is the direction that is given by the most learned that we must passe through every singular observing what is to be found in them all and at all times and put those things alone in our definition excluding
hee were a man or not and whether hee could shew mee the names of his Ancestors in all ages untill Adam would you give me one answer unto both if affirmative then you had a great taske and such as I think you neither can performe nor would undertake if negative were your answer to both then you are no man You would think it unreasonable that I should tye you thus to prove your selfe a man Thinke it as unreasonable that you should tye me thus to shew my selfe a Christian especially considering this kind of proofe is but weake uncertaine full of exceptions and at the most but humane Cui potest subesse falsum the testimonies of men qui falli possunt fallere who may deceive and be deceived You would thinke it reasonable that if you were to prove your selfe a man a humane creature or that you are descended from Adam I should leave the maner of proofe to your self you would go to work a shorter way more effectually thus Every living creature consisting of a reasonable soule and humane bodie is a man I am a living creature consisting of such a soule and such a bodie Ergo I am a man This would give me satisfaction I would not reject it and bid you shew the names of your Ancestors out of Histories in all ages or you are no man You would have me prove my selfe a Christian give me leave to chuse and frame mine owne Argument thus Whosoever doth professe that faith which is and ever hath bin required of those who by Baptisme are made Christians is therein baptized doth therin continue is a Christian But I was baptized in that faith and doe therein continue and professe the same Ergo I am a Christian. Will you now M. Fisher say unto mee Not so but you must shew me a Catalogue of those who held your faith in all ages or you are no Christian you have no Church Is this your charitie M. Fisher will you not grant me as a Christian what I grant you as a man Bellarmine Baronius Valenza Aquinas and ascending higher Ruffinus Cyrillus Tertullian Irenaeus tell mee you can require no more for an explicit faith such as profession requires at my hands then this which all children in our Churches are taught to beleeve to know and to professe adding this implicit faith that they besides the Articles of the Apostles Creed are prepared to entertaine will believe all things revealed in the word of God I will begin with Valenza who saith Tom. 3. disp 1. c. 1. p. 5. Nota inter omnes orthodoxos convenire articulos fidei Catholicis credendos esse illos qui Apostolorum Symbolo continentur Note that it is agreed amongst all those who are right beleevers that the Articles of faith which Catholiques ought to beleeve are those which are contained in the Apostles Creed If there were any other Articles he should not have said these were the Articles but some of the Articles Againe the same Valenza saith Now in the time of grace there is a command said upon all that of necessitie they must explicitè credere i. actually know and immediatly beleeve those Articles of faith which are contained in the Apostles Creed Et sic decent communitèr Theologi D. Thomas This is the common doctrine of Divines and so saith Aquinas But other truths of faith which besides those Articles of the Creed are contained either in the holy Scriptures or in the definitions of the Church Non necessarium est necessitate medij an t praecepti explicitè credi à vulgaribus fidelibus They are not necessarily to be beleeved by common Christians either as a meanes without which men cannot be saved or by a necessitie imposed or commanded Wherein observe how the Iesuit addeth and paralelleth Definitions of the Church to the Scripture whereas Aquinas cited by him saith thus Dicendum est ergò quod fidei objectum per se Q 2. Art 5. est id per quod homo beatus efficitur ut supra dictum est Per accidens autem aut secundariò se habent ad objectum virtutis omnia quae in sacra Scriptura divinitùs tradita continentur sicut quod Abraham habuit duos filios quod David fuit filius Isai alia hujusmodi Quantum ergo ad prima credibilia quae sunt articuli fidei tenetur homo explicitè credere sicut tenetur habere fidem Quantum autem ad alia credibilia non tenetur homo explicitè credere sed solum implicitè vel in preparatione animi in quantum paratus est credere quicquid divina Scriptura continet sed tunc solum hujusmoditenetur explicitè credere Q. 1. Art 8 quando hoc ei constiterit in doctrina Fidei contineri Wee must therefore conclude that the proper object of Faith is that by which a man is made happy as we have said before But accidentally and secondarily all those things belong unto the object of that vertue which are delivered from God and contained in Scripture as for example that Abraham had two Sonnes and that David was the Sonne of Ishai and such like Therefore as farre as concernes those prime objects of mans beliefe which are the Articles of Faith a man must beleeve the same expresly as hee must have Faith But as for other objects of Faith a man is not bound to believe them expresly but onely implicitely or in a preparation of minde to belieue whatsoever is contained in the holy Scripture but then he is bound to belieue those things expressely when it shall plainely appeare unto him that they are contained in the doctrine of Faith Thus farre that Schooleman To the same effect Carbo the best Epitomizer that I haue seen who in his smaller Booke hath all the marrow of Aquinas his Summes The next shall be Baronius Hoc ipsum Symbolum Catholica Ecclesia semper adeo est venerata ut in sanctis Conciliis Oecumenicis Baron 44. n. 18. quasi basis quaedam fundamentum structurae Ecclesiasticae consueverit imprimis recitari The Catholique Church did alwaies so farre reverence this Creede that it was a Custome to repeate the same in holy Generall Councels as a ground-worke and foundation of all Ecclesiasticall buildings saying moreover concerning the Romane Church that it had preserved the same Apostles Creed sincerè illibatè without any addition or diminution as Ruffinus hath testified in these words In divers Churches some things haue beene added but in the Church of Rome Adjectionem unius saltem sermonis non admittit auditus Their eares abhorre to heare the addition of one sentence Bellarm. Tom. 4. lib. 1. de Iustificatione cap. 9. I am verò quod vetus Ecclesia senserit ac tradiderit de fide ad justificationem salutem necessaria quid ea videlicet sit quod objectum habeat non potest clarius intelligi quam Symbolo fidei quod Catechumenis initio traditur ut
cum fide recta salvâ ad lavacrum Regenerationis accedant Concerning that Faith which is necessary to Iustification and salvation what was the opinion of the Primitive Church and what it did deliver concerning the same namely what Faith is and what object it hath cannot more cleerely bee understood then by that Creede which was delivered to those that were Catechized before Baptisme that so they might come to the Laver of Regeneration with a right and sound Faith Tom. 3 lib. 1. de Baptis cap. 24. He saith that the repeating of this Creed is the fourth Ceremony of Baptisme of which Ceremony mention is made as he there writeth by Clemens Dionysius Origen Cyprian Cyrill Hillary Hierom Augustine And that the summe and whole object of Faith is therein contained though briefely Saint Augustine doth teach Serm. 115. de tempore besides others that teach the same where saith Bellarm he doth define the Apostles Creede in these words Est inquit Symbolum comprahensio fidei nostrae simplex brevis plena ut simplicitas consulat audientium rusticitati brevitas memoriae plenitudo doctrinae The Creed is plaine briefe and a full comprisall of our Faith that the plainesse may helpe the simplicitie brevitie may helpe the memory and the fulnesse may provide for the learning of the hearers Lib. 1. c. 2. 3. 4. Lib. advers Praxiam Saint Irenaus doth expound the rule of the Christian Faith the same also is done by Tertullian but both of them doe teach that nothing else is to be believed besides the Articles of the Apostles Creed although they haue not the name of the Creede So saith Bellarm lib. 1. de Iust c. 9. Leo the first ep 13. doth charge Eutiches to haue made a dissention contrary to the entirenesse of the Catholique Faith Est siquidem ipsius Catholici Symboli brevis perfecta confessio quae duodecem Apostolorum totidem est signata sententiis For in the Apostles Creed is contained a perfect confession of Faith Thus he is cited by Binius Tom. 1. Conciliorum pag. 946. Baronius Anno 1016. num 1. saith That one Simeon a holy man of Armenia comming to Rome and there being accused of Heresie and demanded what faith hee was of a He made a perfect confession of faith by rehearsing the Apostles Creed c. Respondens Catholicae Apostolicae fidei perfectionem ita confitendo perdocuit qualitèr per universum orbem Apostolorum Symbolum in Nicaena Synodo peroratum clara voce personuit And by and by after Baronius addeth these words Innotuit protinus Papae omnibus qui aderant virum Dei scilicet Simeonem verae fidei esse professorem Lastly the sufficiency of this Creed is acknowledged not onely by those which I have above named but also the Councell of Ephesus concluding doth repeat this Creed adding these words Huic sanctae fidei omnes affentiantur oportet est enim piè sufficienterque ad totius orbis utilitatem exposita Let all men assent to this holy Faith for it is piously and sufficiently expounded to the benefit of the whole world Having thus out of the Fathers Schoolemen Councels and your owne Writers shewed the Antiquitie necessitie trueth perfection sufficiencie and fulnesse of my Faith in which I was baptized and which all wee of the Protestant Churches doe professe how can you say that we are not of the Church or require us to adde other Articles unto these in which wee all have been baptized and in which alone not onely wee but all of your Church and all Churches of the world since the Apostles times have been baptized been made Christians been admitted into the Church This is the Covenant of faith as well in your Church as in ours for there is no other profession of faith in Baptisme amongst you but the Apostles Creed there is no mention there no promise no covenant that wee doe beleeve unwritten Traditions Indulgences Purgatorie Invocation of Saints seven Sacraments worshipping of Images Communion under one kinde Transubstantiation and the Primacie of the Romish Church When a Farmour is told that he hath forfeited his Lease that he hath broken his Covenants he will aske in what point and when it is told him in particular wherein he repaires unto his Lease lookes upon his Covenants and if this which is layd to his charge be not there expressed hee will reply It is not hâ—ere I am not bound unto it it is no Covenant of mine and his Land-lord were unjust to presse him beyond his Covenant Wee have made a Covenant with God in Baptisme we are admitted Tenants in his Church you say wee have forfeyted our Grant broken our Covenants vve are no longer Tenants vve are no more of the Church I aske you why you say because I will not beleeve your new Creed and that the Pope is head of the Church for that is your primarius fidei articulus Bellarm. to Blackwell I reply there is no such thing in my Covenant I was baptized in no such faith I was made a member of Christ I was not made a member of the Pope I will leave that for you vvho make him your head And thus farre of explicite faith of justifying faith necessary to salvation of the primary fundamentall propositions which belong to faith per se non per accidens out of which I will collect some few Arguments Whosoever was baptized into and still doth professe a whole full perfect true sufficient faith is of the Church But the Protestants were baptized into and still doe professe a whole full perfect true sufficient faith Therefore the Protestants are of the Church Every word of the Major and Minor is prooved in this Chapter in that I have proved all these titles to belong to the Apostles Creed A second Argument Whosoever doe professe that Faith by which men are made Christians doe still continue Christians But the Protestants doe professe that faith by which men are made Christians Ergo The Protestants are Christians and consequently of the Church A third Argument To prove that those Doctrines of their new Creed can be no Articles of faith because the Articles of the Apostles Creed being already perfect and compleat can admit of no essentiall addition and all Articles must be essentiall quia per se There can be no essentiall addition to that which is perfect and compleat as the Apostles Creed is But the Articles of Faith are essentiall unto Faith Ergo No new Articles may be added to the Apostles Creed being perfect and compleat CHAP. IV. Of the totall object of faith as it includeth not onely the primary essentiall matters of faith but also the secondary and accidentall matters contained in the revealed truth and that from hence demonstrations may bee drawne to prove the Protestants to be a Church THose things we beleeve by an infused divine faith are of two sorts 1. Some prime proper essentiall as those things contained in the Apostles
Scriptorem vel per alium legitimum definitorem fidei whom he afterwards concludes to be the Pope I therefore chuse to speake as the Fathers doe yea and as the more Ancient Schoolemen did Aquinas Carbo and others That the Scripture is Regula credendorum which excludeth Bellamines Verbum non scriptum and Valenzaes Papall decisions And to this purpose I will cite such places of the Fathers which are acknowledged by the Adversaries to be true Fathers and true quotations The sacred Writers Evangelium in Scripturis nobis tradiderunt fundamentum Irenaeus l. 3. c. 1. columnam fidei nostrae futuram haue delivered the Gospell unto us in the written Word to be the foundation and pillar of our Faith Here Bellarmines Verbum non scriptum his unwritten Word hath no place This Father who lived in the first Age after the Apostles saith In Scripturis in the written Word Here Valenza's unwritten Revelations of Traditions or Papall decisions being his definitor fidei have no place to reconcile these two Scriptum and non Scriptum is to overthrow the first fundamentall Propositions of all learning in the world to reconcile contradictions The most incompatible opposition that is without which being laid as a ground-worke no man may treate of any thing Arist Meta 4. ca. 10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is impossible that the same thing at the same time should bee and should not bee this no man can bee ignorant of this is the first principle in Metaphysicke in Logicke though in other termes viz. two contradicting Propositions cannot be both true nor both false This is the first principle of all other Sciences as the fornamed Author Fonseca Suarez as Aquinas your great Schooleman Fonseca and Swarez your fellow Iesuits and great writers upon Metaphysicke your learned writer upon the Demonstrations Zabarel and others whom I could name doe undoubtedly teach Reconcile me Irenaeus his Scriptum est and your non scriptum Bellarm. de Verbo Dei and as you have taken away the Rule of divine knowledge by denying the sufficiencie thereof by denying it to bee a totall Rule but a part a piece of a Rule which is as much as no Rule as a part or piece of a man is no man so by denying this first principle of all humane knowledge you take away all Naturall and Morall Philosophie all Logicke all Metaphysicke and then what remaineth but that we be no more creatures endued with reason and your Pope shall rule us as please him Sed habebit imperium in belluas hee must transforme us into this beastly ignorance Thus having taken away your distinction of Scriptum non Scriptum which I desire may be observ'd in the rest of the Fathers that follow for I will cite none who use not this word Scriptures which is the written word I will presse my Argument thus First Argument Whosoever doth hold the foundation and pillar of Faith is of the Church But the Protestants believing the Scriptures doe hold the foundation and pillar of Faith Ergo The Protestants are of the Church What will you Master Fisher answer to this Argument will you distinguish Verbum Dei with Bellarmine or Revelatio Divina with Valenza ad terminos what word in my Syllogisme doe you distinguish or what proposition doe you deny Lib. cont Gentes seu contr Idola The second testimony shall be Athanasius his words are these Sufficiunt sanctae ac divinitùs inspiratae Scripturae ad instructionem veritatis out of which I thus argue Second Argument Whosoever doe professe that which is sufficient to instruct them in the truth are of the Church The Protestants professing the Scriptures do professe that which is sufficient to instruct them in the truth Ergo The Protestants are of the Church Neither is here any place for Bellarmines unwritten word or Valenzaes unwritten revelations Basil It is an Argument of infidelity and a sure token of pride to reject any thing that is written or to bring in any thing that is not written saith Saint Basil in his Sermon of the confession of Faith Third Argument But the Romà nists doe add vnto the Faith things that are not written Ergo The Romanists are proude Infidels The Maior is Saint Basils the Minor is your owne not only delivered by private men but also enacted by your Councell of Trent Sess 4. Anno 1546. Fourth Argument Chrysost Whatsoever is requisite unto Salvation is wholly fulfilled in the Scriptures saith Chrysostme Com. in 22. Matth. But the Protestants doe professe all that is fulfilled in the Scriptures Ergo The Protestants doe professe all that is requisite unto salvation And doing so sure they are of the Church because none are saved out of the Church Idem Chrys Seing we have a most exact Ballance Levell and Rule of all things the sayings of the Law of God I beseech you all that forsaking what seemeth to this man or what seemeth to that man you would enquire after these out of Scripture Thus the same Father Hom. 13. in 2. Ep. ad Cor. I argue thus Fifth Argument They who professe and believe the most exact ballance levell and rule of Christians doe continue in the Christian Church But the Protestants beleeving the Scripture or written Word doe beleeve a perfect ballance levell and Rule of all things belonging to Christians Ergo The Protestants are in the Christian Church I reverence the fulnesse of Scripture Tertull contra Hermog Let Hermogenes shew me that it is written if it be not written let him feare the woe that is denounced against them that adde or diminish Sixth Argument They who adde to the fulnesse of the written Word are thereby subject to a great Woe But the Romanists denying the fulnesse of Scripture adde thereto unwritten Traditions Ergo The Romanists are subject to great woe Seventh Argument Diabolici spiritus est aliquid extra Scripturarum Sacrarum authoritatem putare divinum It is devilish to accompt any thing divine that is not in the written Word Theoph. But the Romanists doe accompt unwritten Traditions and Papall determinations to be divine Ergo The Romanists are devilish or have a devilish spirit in them I will conclude with Saint Augustine Eighth Argument Aug. l. 3. cont Petil. cap. 6. If any one either concerning Christ or his Church or concerning any other matter which belongeth unto Faith or life I will not say if wee but as Saint Paul added If an Angell from heaven doe declare unto you any thing besides that which you have received in the writings of the Law and the Gospell let him be accursed But the Romanists doe tell us of unwritten Traditions concerning masters of Faith and life besides the written word of the Law and the Gospell Ergo The Romanists are accursed I will adde more testimonies out of the same Father both because by consent of all Divines that I have reade both Roman and Reformed hee is the chiefest Divine
since the Apostles and because those things which I shall alleage out of him being versed in the same Question betweene him and the Donatists concerning the Church are most proper to this question betweene us and the Romanists whether we bee a Church or no and will answere most doubts and objections that are made herein but seeing that this Chapter is growne so long I will reserve it for another CHAP. V. Shewing out of Saint Augustine and others that there is no other way to demonstrate a Church to bee a true Christian Church but by the Word of God I Desire you Mr. Fisher and whosoever will vouchsafe to reade these my poore Labours to take my meaning in citing these Fathers Schoolmen and Iesuites which I have alledged in the precedent Chapters not to be such as if by their authoritie alone wee endeavour to proove our selves to be a Church but to shew that in matters of Faith and in this Question of the Church no demonstrations no strong proper and necessitating Arguments can bee made but out of Scripture All other Arguments are but probable without any necessary illation and forrein not proper to Theologie As after I have done with S. Augustine I will shew out of your owne Schoolmen This Father is he out of whom our later Writers have had next after the sacred Scriptures most of the excellent solid deepe Divinitie which they have This was hee that was stiled Malleus Haereticorum the Hammer of Heretikes Sabellicus Vir super omnes qui ante eum post eum huc usque fuerunt mortales admirabili ingenii acumine praeditus A man as your Sixtus Senensis writeth of him indued with a sharpnesse of wit above all mortals that have been before him Bibl. 5. l. 4. or after him to this time full of humane learning but in the divine Scriptures by farre the most learned of all others and in the Exposition of Scriptures raised to so high a pitch of incomparable subtiltie or acutenesse ultra quam dici queat more than the tongue of man can expresse Dr. Kinge This was hee of whom a learned Preacher and powerfull speaker of ours spake in the Pulpit that hee confuted the Heretikes so fully answered all their objections and demands so weightily that of him next after the Sonne of God himselfe it may bee sayd they durst aske him no more questions And if I in my poore judgment and reading may expresse what I have observed and doe conceive that was the most fruitfull age of Heresies that ever was and some of those Heretikes so learned especially Pelagius the grand enemy of the grace of God that if Saint Augustine had not been borne in those times Pelagius and many more had not been confuted This man amongst other Heretikes wrote against the Donatists who did appropriate the Church to themselves as now the Romanists or Papists doe so that it is the same question now betweene us and the Papists which was then betweene Saint Augustine and the Donatists The Donatists did tye the Church to Africke the Papists to Rome not that either the one or the other did or doe denie Christians to be in other parts of the world but that all men in the world must bee of their Church and hold union with them and dependance from them The first place that I will cite out of Saint Augustine shall be his words in his second Booke of Christian Doctrine ca. 9. All those things which doe containe faith and manners of living are found amongst those things quae apertè posita sunt in Scriptura which are plainly put downe in the written Word This doth proove what wee intend namely that this Quaestion of theirs if it be necessary is found in Scripture and not onely so but in plaine Scripture which answereth the objection of obscuritie in the Scripture that though it bee true that in Scriptures some things be obscure some be plaine yet all necessary things are plaine in Scripture Ex Augustino lib. de Vnitate Ecclesiae cont Petilianum Tom. 7. p. 109. Cap. 2. Inter nos Donatistas quaestio est ubi sit Ecclesia Quid ergo facturi sumus in verbis nostris eam quaesituri an in verbis capitis sui Domini nostri Iesu Christi Puto quod in illius potius verbis eam quarere debemus qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum novit enim Deus qui sunt ejus Cap. 3. Sed ut dicere coeperam non audiamus haec dico haec dicis sed audiamus haec dicit Dominus sunt certè libri dominici quorum authoritate utrique consentimus utrique credimus utrique servimus ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causam nostram Auferantur ergo illa de medio quae adversus nos invicem non ex divinis Canonicis libris sed aliundè recitamus Quaerat fortassis aliquis dicat mihi Cur ergo ista vis auferri de medio quandò communio tua etiamsi proferantur invicta est Quia nolo humanis documentis sed divinis Oraculis sanctam Ecclesiam demonstrari si enim sanctae Scripturae in Africa sola designaverunt Ecclesiam in paucis Romae Rupitanis Montensibus in domo vel patrimonio unius Hispana mulieris quicquid de chartis aliis aliud proferatur non tenent Ecclesiam nisi Donatista Si in paucis Mauris Provinciae Caesariensis eam sancta Scriptura determinat ad Rogatistas transeundum est Si in paucis Tripolitanis Byzacenis provincialibus Maximianistae ad eam pervenerunt Si in solis Orientalibus inter Arianos Macedonianos Eunomianos si qui illic alii sunt requirenda est Quis autem possit singulas quasi Haereses enumerare gentium singularum Si autem Christi Ecclesia Canonicarum Scripturarum divinis certissimis testimoniis in omnibus Gentibus designata est quicquid attulerint undecunque recitaverint qui dicunt ecce hic Christus ecce illic audiamus potius si oves ejus sumus vocem Pastoris nostri dicentis Nolite credere Istae quippè singulae in multis Gentibus ubi ista est non inveniuntur haec autem quae ubique est etiam ubi illae sunt invenitur Ergo in Scripturis Sanctis Canonicis eam requiramus Cap. 4. Totus Christus caput corpus est quicunque de Christo rectè sentiunt sed ab Ecclesia ita dissentiunt ut eorum communio non sit cum tota quacunque diffunditur sed in aliqua parte seperata inveniatur manifestum est eos non esse in Ecclesia Gatholica Quapropter quia cum Donatistis nobis Quaestio est non de capite sed de corpore id est non de ipso Salvatore Iesu Christo sed de ejus Ecclesia ipsum Caput de quo consentimus ostendat nobis corpus suum de quo dissentimus ut per ejus verbum jam dissentire definamus Prioribus temporibus
Romane Church may give testimonie against you and for me Caiphas even then when he persecuted Christ might prophesie truly of Christ Pilate who did crucifie Christ did write that of Christ which was true viz. that hee was King of the Iewes Matthew Paris was a member of the Romane Church who said that your Church did never reject any that came unto her if they brought white or red with them Silver or Gold This member of the Roman Church said that a principall member viz. That Pope Gregorie the seventh did confesse on his death-bed that by the instigation of the devill hee had troubled the world yet this was such a member as that Innocentius the fourth Matthew Paris the then Pope vvrote of him that hee vvas vir probatae vitae Religioris expertae Such a Writer as that Baronius giveth this testimony of him Take away from his Booke his calumnies Anno 996. n. 63 64. invectives taunts and blasphemies against the Apostolick See often repeated and you vvill say it is a golden Commentarie taken vvord by vvord out of the publike Records and very vvell compiled together Thus farre Baronius As if a man should except against a vvitnesse and say you must not believe him in this vvhich he sayes against me but in all things else you may believe him hee speakes nothing but vvhat is upon publike Record Cajetane was a learned member of your Church and yet he held the Canon of Scripture as vvee doe contrarie to that vvhich the Councell of Trent hath defined Sixtus Senensis vvas a member of the Roman Church and yet hee did denie some part of the Scripture to be Canonicall which the Councell of Trent defined for Canonicall and that after the Councell Bellarm. de Verbo Dei l. 1. c. 7. I will fit you with many such members in my Catalogue Fisher Neither can I see any reason why hee did not with like audacitie goe on in naming other famous Romane Catholickes in every Age but that as it seemeth hee was not resolved whether hee were better to put in his Catalogue the names of damned Haeretickes which disagree in divers points of Faith from all ancient and present Pastors and Doctors of the Church even from the Protestants themselves Rogers Who you meane by these Haeretickes I know not and therfore I need not reply unto you herein if you had laid that imputation upon us I would have enlarged my selfe in the defence but you say they differ in points of Faith from the Protestants Fisher Or else to put in names of Popes Cardinals Bishops Priests Monkes and other religious men whose Writings and profession of life palpably shew that they held the present Roman Doctrine and communicated with the Roman Church Rogers I have answered you already that I will name Popes Cardinals Bishops Priests Monkes and others of your Church and why but such as neither their Writings nor profession of life doe palpably shew that they held the present Roman Faith If their Writings expresse what you say I will yeeld but that their Roman profession of life should include the now present Roman Faith I deny and besides what I formerly spake concerning your Writers I will adde some few instances now Gratian. Can Comp. de consecr dist 2. Gelasius was a Pope and yet hee held your present halfe Communion to be Sacriledge and decreed thus Aut integra suscipiant aut ab integris arceantur Let them receive the Communion in both formes or in neitheâ— Nich Lyranus was a Catholick and yet hee held the Canon of Scripture contrary to that of the Councell of Trent as Bellarmine confesseth So did Hugo and Thomas de Vio two Cardinals Irenaeus Basil Chrysostome Augustine and others whom I cited before cap. 4. were Bishops and yet they held the fulnesse and perfection of Scripture without the supply of unwritten Traditions contrary to the Councell of Trent Ierome was a Priest and a Monke yet denied those Books to be Canonicall which we deny contrary to that the Councell of Trent hath taught and decreed As the hand of a man may smite himselfe and yet continue a member of his body so these might be members of the Roman Church and yet give testimonie in something against your Church The Embassador De Ferrias of France was a member of the Roman Church and a French man Histor Concil Trid when in the Councell of Trent speaking of the miseries of France hee said If they should demand why France is not in peace hee could answer nothing but that which Iehu said to Ioram How can there be peace there remaining and concealed the words following but added You know the Text. The Cardinall of Loraine was a principall member of the Roman Church and the second Clergie man in the Latine Church yet hee speaking of the miseries of France said in the Councell of Trent If you would demand who hath caused this tempest and fortune I can say nothing but this That this fortune is come by our meanes cast us into the Sea By Vs hee must understand the Roman Clergie Iudas that betrayed Christ gave a true testimonie against himselfe when hee said J have sinned in betraying innocent blood And the limbs of Antichrist may give a true testimonie against Antichrist Now whereas you say that they communicated with the Roman Church I grant they did in some things or else they had not beene members of that Church but not in all for not in those things they did disavow reprove condemn and that this may the better be understood I will enlarge my discourse herein CHAP. VIII What it is to communicate with others How farre wee yet communicate with the Roman Church and wherein wee refuse to communicate COmmunio est multorum unio Communio quid Communion is the union of many They that agree in one opinion are so farre united they are one They that enjoy any thing in common are so farre united Rom. 12. The Church is one body 1 Cor. 12. Christians are severall members of this one body as therefore the members being many are united in one body and doe communicate in divers of the selfe same things from that one body and communicate one unto another the service of those things that are proper unto them as they are severall members So in the Church all Christians make but one body collective which are united together by many things some outward some inward some both outward and inward because it is corpus vivum a living body wherein there is saith Saint Augustine a soule Augustin Breviculo Collat. 3. Collat. 9. and a body The soule are the inward gifts of the holy Ghost faith hope and charity c. The body are the outward profession of faith and receiving of Sacraments Whence it comes to passe that some are of the soule and of the body of the Church and therefore united to Christ their Head both inwardly and outwardly these are most
1. In India where Pantenus the Christian Phylosopher found Christians and the Gospel of Saint Matthew in Hebrew Lib. 5. c. 9. Anno 180. left unto them by Bartholomew who preached the Word in those parts Irenaeus the learned Bishop of Lions in France died about these times and had heard Polycarpus the Disciple of Saint Iohn as hee himselfe confesseth hee writeth thus The Church dispersed through the universall world into the ends of the earth received from the Apostles Lib. 1. c. 2. and their Disciples that Faith which is in one God the Father Almightie c. as hee there setteth it downe more at large cap. 3. hee saith This Faith the Church dispersed through the world doth constantly keepe as if they dwelt in one house as if they had but one soule one heart one mouth neither doe the Churches in Germany believe otherwise nor the Iberians nor the Celtes nor the Churches of Egypt nor those in the East nor those of Lybia nor those which are placed in the middle of the world Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria about the yeare 234 Euseb l. 7. c. 4. writing to Stephen Bishop of Rome saith Scias nunc frater c. Know now Brother that all the Easterne and those Churches which are more remote are at unitie Where he names the Bishops of Antioch Caesarea and Ierusalem of Tyre of Laodicea all Syria Arabia Mesopotamia Pontus Bythinia Euseb de vita Constantini l. 3. c. 7. The Ministers of God came together to the Councell of Nice out of Syria Cilicia Phaenicia Arabia Pabestina Egypt Thebais Africa Mesopotamia Persia Scythia Pontus Galatia Pamphilia Cappadocia Asia and Phrygia thither came the Thracians Macedonians Achaians Epirots and they whose dwellings were far more remote Much could I cite to the same purpose out of Socrates Theodoret Sozomen and other Ecclesiasticall Historians much out of the Fathers much out of the late Travellers but I will make choise of two or three which shew the multitude of Christians over the world It is too true that about seven hundred yeares after the comming of our Saviour in the flesh Mahomet gained much from the Christians the Turkes more about foure hundred yeares after that and the Tartars I may say almost as much as both the last of these about foure hundred yeares past Saving one mentioned by Mathew Paris subduing the mighty Christian King of Teuduc became Mahometans and their Successors ever since yet so as Christians are found in all their dominions to this day yea and within these foure hundred yeares and lesse Burchardus hath recorded that in the hither halfe of Asia from Tanais Westward to Imaus Eastward and from thence to the South of Asia there were thirty Christians for one Mahometan I will end this with an Historian and Traveller of your owne Andrew Thevet Cosmographer to the French King in his Cosmographie I assure you saith he that I found at Ierusalem in the holy Passion weeke more then foure thousand Christians of severall remote Nations my selfe being sole with an Almaine of the Roman Church And anon after hee saith All those Nations doe acknowledge neither Pope nor Cardinall King nor Emperour of ours And againe None can shew that the Abyssines Armenians Maronits Georgians of Persia Nestorians Iacobites Syrians Iavans which be of the Ilands next the Orientall India Burians Darians Cephalians the men of Quinsay most remote of all the Orientall India of all which Nations I saw in Ierusalem in the holy Passion weeke ever learned from us of the Latine Church their Sacred Mysteries or Liturgie which they affirme themselves to have received from the Apostles Thus far Thevet Yet by your definition all these so many Christians of severall remote nations are damned to Hell for they do not acknowledge the Pope nor did for one thousand five hundred yeares And must all the Christians for one thousand five hundred yeares of so many severall Nations be damned for not acknowledging the Pope The devils in Hell would triumph if this were true The ten persecutions in the Primitive Church and the great inundation of Mahometisme lenarged far and wide by the conquest of Sarazens Turkes and Tartars did never cut so many soules from Christ drive so many out of the Christian Church and consequently damne them to Hell as this definition hath done if it were true I have read in one of your owne Writers Matthew Paris That a Priest deceased Anno 1072. about thirty dayes after appearing to another Priest his former acquaintance bade him give over his function and repent if he would be saved and opening his hand shewed him a writing wherein the Devill and all the societie of Hell did give thankes to the whole Order of the Clergie because that giving themselves wholly to pleasure and neglecting to preach they suffered more soules to come to Hell then had beene seene in any Age before All the service that the Romish Clergie of those times did doe to the Devill in bringing infinite numbers of soules to Hell was nothing to what this Iesuiticall definition and Doctrine doth doe If this definition be true the judiciall proceeding in the later day must be not as our Saviour hath laid downe in the 25. of Saint Matthew Come yee blessed of my Father Ver. 34 35 36. inherit the Kingdome prepared for you from the foundation of the world For I was an hungred and yee gave mee meat I was thirsty and ye gave mee drinke I was a stranger and yee tooke mee in naked and yee clothed mee I was sicke and yee visited mee I was in prison and ye came unto mee But thus it must be if this definition be true Come yee blessed who have submitted your selves unto my Vicar generall who have been obedient unto my Bishop of Rome acknowledging him to have authoritie over all Bishops that hee is above Councels above Kings Valenza Tom. 3.1 qu. §. 6. Bellarm. l. 4 de Pont. Rom. c. 4 5. above Emperours Lord of all the world that in him is invested all the authoritie of the universall Church that all the Church without him may erre that he doing the office of a Pastor or intending to teach the Church cannot erre Our Saviour said Not every one that saith unto mee Lord Lord shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven but hee that doth the will of my Father but now the case is altered Every one that saith Lord Lord to the Bishop of Rome and none but hee alone is in the Church out of which there is no salvation Our Saviour said Hee that doth the will of my Father but these say Hee that doth the will of God and the Church shall be saved and by the Church they understand the Pope Must all those remote Nations amongst whom many millions never heard of the Bishop of Rome and those who are oppressed under the Moores Turkes and Tartars for the Faith of Christ must they I say be examined in the last day in
that great Iudgement whether they did obey the Bishop of Rome or no and condemned for not obeying him If they answer Wee acknowledged our sinnes and repented of them wee believed in thy name Iesu wee were baptized in that Faith wee received thy body and blood wee endured many indignities reproaches impositions nay our children are taken from us if there be any more hopefull then other and all because wee are Christians Will Christ answer them Away from mee for you did not acknowledge my Vicar generall my Bishop of Rome to have authoritie over all Churches over all Patriarches yea Kings and Emperors in ordine ad Spiritualia I know you not you are not of the Church Irenaeus l. 3. c. 12. May not the Aethiopians reply Wee have received the Faith first by the relation of our a Act. 8.27 owne Countreymen who were baptized by Phillip afterward by the Evangelist b Socrat. hist l. 1. c. 15. Saint Matthew Wee received it by the preaching of Bartholemew say the c Chrysost Hom. 22. de Apostolis Armenians Wee have received it by the preaching of Andrew say the d Orig. l. 3. in Genesin Scythians We from thy beloved Disciple e Euseb hist l. 3. c. 1. Saint Iohn say the Churches of the lesser f Euseb hist l. 3. c. 1. Asia with us he lived with us he died to us he vouchsafed to speake in his Revelations we received it also from thy Apostle g Paul epist ad Ephes ad Galat. Paul who preached amongst us and wrote divers Epistles unto us From him wee received thy Faith say the Graecians Macedonians h Paul ep ad Roman cap. 15 v. 19 26. Illyrians To us hee hath vouchsafed to write say the Thessalonians Corinthians Philippians i Pet. 1. ep cap. 1. v. 1. Peter preached in our Countries and in our neighbour Countries of Anatolia as in k Euseb hist l. 3. c. c. 1. Pontus Galatia Bythinia Cappadocia Asia it was to strangers scattered amongst us of his owne Nation to the l Chrys Hom. de duodecem Apostolis The Church of Ephesus instructed by Paul and afterwards continued by S. Iohn Iren. lib 3. c. 3. The Gospel of the uncircumcissiō was committed unto me as the Gospel of Circumcission was unto Peter Gal. 2.7 dispersed Iewes and not to us of the Gentiles Wee of the higher a Theodor. de veri Evang. c. 9. Osorius de rebus Emanuelis Socrat. l. 1. c. 15. Asia received it from Phillip wee from Simon Zelotes say the inhabitants of Mesopotamia wee of Parthia Persia Media Brachmania India and other neighbour Nations from Thomas We Indians also received it from Bartholomew who left with us the Gospel of thy blessed Apostle and Evangelist Saint Matthew wee saw not Peter wee heard not of the b I assure you that I found at Ierusalem in the holy Passion weeke more then 4000 Christians of severall remote nations hereafter mentioned my selfe being sole amongst them with an Almaine of the Roman Church they doe acknowledge neither Pope nor Cardinall King or Emperor of ours See more p. 42. The Christians of Iava Taprobane Caephala Quinsay and other remote Countries in the Orientall India divers of which as the Aethiopians Indians Armenians Graecians c. were converted in the Apostles times and are from these parts so far distant as that the Latine Church was for many precedent Ages unknowne to sundry of them till the later times Brearley Tract 3. §. 2. Sub. 1. in his booke of the Masse pag. 288. Pope we knew not Rome neither for ought wee know were wee knowne unto thy Latine Church and if it be necessary for all men that will be saved to know and acknowledge the Pope of Rome our Teachers have deceived us the Gospel which wee have received is unperfect the Scriptures are defective which make no mention of the Bishop of Rome nay thy Word hath misled us saying There is no other name under heaven given to men in whom and through whom they attaine health and salvation save only in thy name O Christ Iesu We received not our Religion from Rome wee were not converted by any sent from the Latin Church We received it from thy Apostles say the c Theodor. de curat Grae ca. affect l 9. Tyberines Hyrcanians Caspinians Scythians Massagets Sarmatians the Serae Cimicrians Germans Britaines the Lagi Samni Anasgi utque semel dicatur omne hominum genus all mankind may say we received thy Faith from the Apostles sundry of which were unknowne to the Latine Church Yet my d In the Reply to Doctor White and Doctor Fratley the Author in the second Chapter saith That out of the Roman Church no salvation this is the Title and drift of divers leaves together Adversary here if he sate in the judgement seat would doe as Bellarmine Valenza Binnius and others have done condemne them all to Hell with an Away with you I know you not if you know not the Roman Church if you live not in unitie with that And no marvell he is so peremptory seeing Pope Boniface hath decreed it thus Declaramus dicimus definimus pronunciamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis omni humanae creaturae subesse Romano Pontifici De Major Wee declare say determine pronounce that it is altogether necessary to salvation that every man that will be saved bee obedient to the Bishop of Rome These are the Lawes of Rome this the doctrine of your Schooles this the charitie of your Religion to condemne ten times as many Christians to hell as ever were of your Church for not being obedient to him they never knew they never heard of Arist. Tep l. 6. c. 1. n. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And because we are speaking of Definitions let me request you to remember the lawes of a Definition as first that it must contain all that is defined it must belong to every thing which is comprized under that which is defined 2. It must belong to nothing else but that which is truly and properly stiled by the name of that which is defined as the definition of man must belong to all men to nothing else but man as every man is Animal rationale and nothing but man the reason thereof is this that a definition must shew and expresse distinctly the proper essence of that which is defined 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Artic 2. Poster cap. 3. If proper then it can belong to nothing else if essence it must belong to all for nothing can be without his owne being and essence And for the same reason it is inseparable immutable and must perpetually be verified of that to which it once doth belong as a true definition which sheweth the essence or being of a thing A definition doth make us to know what each thing it because nothing can bee separated from his owne being unlesse it cease to bee at all If then Bellarmines definition
your tenet That there is no salvation out of the Roman Church which is the fame in effect with the doctrine of Bellarmine Valenza and Binnius bee true it must include all Christian Churches and it must agree to all the Christian Churches at all times but this definition did not agree to all Christian Churches as I have shewed by the testimony of your owne writers and Travellers for many thousands of Christian Nations in the world did not acknowledge your Pope and many never heard of your Latine Church neither did the Latine Church know them That it did not perpetually belong to the Church will appeare in that I thinke my adversary is not able to produce any in 1150. yeeres after Christs comming in the flesh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idem Metaph 2. c. 3. that framed such a definition of the Catholick Church so that the learned must either be ignorant of the true definition or this must not be it Is it likely that all the learned Fathers who wrote upon this subject disputed upon this point Licet definitio definitum re idē sint tamen propositio in qua definitio de definito praedicatur non est identica sed doctrinalis quia in ea conceptus distinctus de confuso praedicatur Zuarez were ignorant what the Church of Christ was which is distinctly knowne onely by d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Arti. 2. Post c. 2. a definition If this definition or your tenents were true all those Christians who dyed for Christ till Peter came to Rome were out of the Church were damned Stephen the first Martyr who dyed for Christ the same yeere that Christ dyed for him and all the world was out of the Church was damned lost his life in vaine shed his bloud to no purpose If it were so necessary that there must be a Bishop of Rome to whom all Christians must submit why did not the Primitive Christians entreate Peter to goe to Rome that they might have a Church The beleeving Iewes should have come to Peter and said if we die before there be a Bishop of Rome we dye out of the Church we are damned Definitio est principium finis logieae Zabarella therefore good Peter to Rome with all speed They of Antioch should have done the like and said to Peter sweet Simon what dost thou here to Rome that we may have a Church So should they of Alexandria have told him to Rome Peter what dost thou heere Sedit Antiochiae annis 7. Baron an 39.25 annis ut Euseb in Chro. why wilt thou so long delay the laying of that corner stone in Rome whereon all must be built wherein all must be saved why wilt thou hazard the salvation of so many soules as may die before thou hast settled a Church at Rome which must be the Mother of all Churches Pius 4. his Creed art 11. wilt thou make thy selfe guilty of the blood of so many beleevers as may dye whilst thou doest linger and loyter heere The Churches of Iudaea Galile and Samaria were excluded by your definitions Acts 9.10 11 12. and tenents for Peter had not as yet beene out of those coasts nay if this definition were true they were no Churches but the Scripture saith they were Churches ergo this is a false tenet a false definition The Christians of Ioppa were to blame to send for him Acts 9. to hinder him from a more necessary journey to Rome and Peter himselfe much to blame to tarry there many dayes Cornelius the devout Centurion if he had heard Acts 10. and believed your tenents and definitions might have stumbled at what the Angell commanded him doe and he might have said with himselfe if there be no salvation out of the Roman Church what good can Peter doe me before there be a Church there If none can be saved but who are in subjection to the Bishop of Rome what good can Peter doe me there being as yet no Bishop of Rome Then when Peter came unto him and preached Christ Iesus and remission of sinnes in his name if these men had beene there they would have said Peter you have forgot one principall Article of the faith that which is essentiall to the Church the being entity the definition of it That he must be obedient to the Bishop of Rome this might more neerely concerne him being Captaine of the Italian Band. But the Scripture saith that Peter did tell him that whereby he and all his house should be saved and yet no word of Rome or Roman Bishop The Christians of Antioch by this definition and tenet were no Church though the Scripture say they were Iames the brother of Iohn which was kild by Herod was of no Church by this definition and tenet and therefore was damned We desire not to be of any other Church then Augustine Ambrose Ierome the Councell of Africk the Councell of Nice the Church of Ioppa Caesarea Ierusalem Antioch were of We like no such definitions as exclude the Fathers Councells the Apostle Saint Iames the Martyr Saint Stephen and damnes them to Hell O let me live the life of these dye the death of these and rest in peace with these Thus much in justifying my definition and against your tenet and Iesuiticall definition of Bellarmine which I briefly urge thus That definition which belongeth to all Christian Churches and to none else is a good definition But such is mine Ergo It is a good definition That definition and tenet which excludeth and condemneth all the Churches of Africk Asia and a great part of Europe yea Stephen the first Martyr and Iames the brother of Iohn together with divers Councells and fathers is false and uncharitable But such is your definition such your tenet Ergo Your tenet and definition are both false and uncharitable CHAP. XI A true Copy of Mr. Fishers five Propositions IT is certaine there is one and but one true infallible faith without which none can please God 2. This one infallible faith cannot be had according to the ordinary course of Gods providence but by hearing Preachers and Pastors of the true visible Church who onely are lawfully sent and authorized to teach the true word of God 3. As therefore this one infallible faith hath beene and must be in all ages so there must needs be in all ages Preachers and Pastors of the true visible Church of whom all sorts of people have in times past as appeareth by Histories learned and must learne in all future times the said infallible faith 4. Hence it followeth that if Protestants bee the true visible Church of Christ all sorts of men who in every age have had the aforesaid infallible faith have learned it by Protestant Preachers whose names may be found in Histories as the names of those are found who in severall ages did teach and convert people of severall Nations under the faith of Christ 5. Hence further followeth that
grounds you say truly that they are your grounds they manifest of themselves being your fourth and fifth Propositions Fisher I find first that he granteth the first three without any exception which I desire may be diligently noted and well pondered Rogers How I admitted them appeareth by my answer I delivered them more briefly and more perspicuously then you did thus and in this sense The three first Propositions I admit 1. That there is one faith 2. The ordinary propagation of this faith is by Pastors lawfully called 3. That there have beene and must be in all ages Pastors so lawfully called This I conceived to be the meaning of your three first Propositions without any diminution neither doe you except against it as for your parenthesis viz. as appeareth by Histories that is no part of the Proposition for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is one Proposition which declareth one thing or whose parts are joyned together and made one by conjunction this your parenthesis is no part of the Proposition nor made one with it by conjunction Fisher For out of these three grounds to wit first that there is one and but one faith necessary to salvation Secondly c. Evidently followeth that which is Masters Fishers fourth Proposition to wit If Protestant faith be the true faith and their Church the true Church or as Master Rogers had rather say A true Church of Christ then their Protestant faith differing from the Roman faith hath beene taught in all ages by lawfully sent visible Protestant Pastors whose names may be found in Histories as names of others are found who did teach the true faith of Christ in all ages Rogers If it doth evidently follow frame your Argument make your syllogisme inferre your conclusion I see not the evidence make it cleare unto me one short syllogisme would make me confesse that which you endeavour to prove in three pages but prove not at all onely you make one fallacie called petitio principij and falsifie my words more then once I will begin with your falsifications Fisher Neither doth Master Rogers make any bones to grant Rogers This is your first falsification that I make no bones to grant your fourth Proposition what I granted in your fourth Proposition was this First after the Rules of Art the practise of all learned men in all professions and the onely way to wave contention about words and come to reality finding an ambiguous phrase in that Proposition I thus wrote I would gladly know what they meane by those words if the Protestants bee the true visible Church whether so as if we alone who are called Protestants were of the Church and no others wee leave such enclosing of Commons to the Romanists wee challenge it not wee are a true Church not the true Church wee are a part not the whole wee include our selves wee exclude not others whether Graecians Armenians Aethiopians Spaniards or Italians c. so they deny no fundamentall part of the Faith either directly or by consequence What Reply have you made to this have you unfolded your meaning have you expounded this dark phrase have you as much as proved or disproved my distinction or told the Reader in which sense you took it are you such a friend to amphibologies doubtfull phrases and aequivocating termes that being requested to open your selfe you will not explaine your words your Propositions and grounds or Principles to inferre other conclusions Such obscure phrases of double signification can make no Argument but a fallacie which seemeth to be an Argument but is none They cannot be Propositions which will not admit of one ambiguous terme one ambiguous simple word The onely way to avoid this is by distinction This distinction I brought which you cannot deny The thing it selfe is so cleare that there is difference betweene a part and the whole betweene a part of a Citie and a whole Citie betweene a part of a Kingdome and a whole Kingdome betweene a part of the Church and the whole Church Hee that saith I am a Citizen of London being made free wrongs no man but hee that sayes I am the onely Citizen and there is no other speakes falsly and wrongs all other Citizens of that society He that sayes Middlesex is a part of the kingdom of England speakes truly and wrongs no man but hee that sayes Middlesex is the Kingdom of England as if there were no other Shiere nor Province belonging unto England speakes falsly and is no lesse then a Traitor to the King And hee that sayes the Protestants are a Church speaks truly and wrongs no man because hee excludes no other Christian Church but hee that sayes the Protestants are the Church as you say of the Romane excluding all others speakes falsly and wrongs all other Christian Churches of the world as the Donatists did which S. Augustin esteemed a Quid hac stultitia imò verò dementia reperitur insanius lib. 1. cont ep Parm. Credunt ex partibus terrarum periisse Abrahae semen quod est Christus De vestro ista dicitis quia qui loquitur mendacium de suo loquitur creditur eis de orbe terrarū quem possidere jam coperat periisse Christus et quia hoc credunt cum impudenter dicant Christiani sumus audent dicere nos soli sumus ibid. folly and madnesse they believe that Christ is lost in all other parts of the world This you spake of your selves because he that telleth a lye speaketh of himselfe You dare say with the Donatists We alone are the Church yet Christ did not say Rome is the field but the World is the field that seed of the Gospel was sowne through the World wee dare not therefore say as you doe We are the Church we are the onely Christians for this were a lye folly and madnesse as Saint Augustine termeth it And yet as if there were no difference you can passe this over with saying The true Church or a true Church as Master Rogers had rather say I had rather say so indeed because this is true the other which you say is false this is humilitie that is pride this is charitable that 's uncharitable as the devill this is injurious unto none that to thousands of thousands millions of millions shutting them out of Heaven who believe in Christ are baptized into Christ and suffer for Christ Secondly I observed many needlesse words in your Propositions writing thus I must desire the Authors not to affect obscuritie nor to alter their words which may alter their meaning as in the fourth and fifth Propositions they have with the multitude of needlesse words obscured the matter the fourth being briefly and plainly this If the Protestants be a true Church their Faith hath beene taught in all Ages by lawfull Pastors This I granted and no more this is your first falsification as if I granted that which I expresly deny I deny that wee are the Christian Church which your Propositions layes downe
Registerie Thus much concerning your Index Expurgatorius blotting out of Authors that which maketh against you Now followeth the third exception against your authorities your forging of Authors and Councells As Abdias Stories of the Apostles urged by Harding and others censured by your owne Sixtus Senensis for fained and utterly rejected by Cardinall Baronius Linus Bishop of Rome of the passion of the B Apostles Peter and Paul urged by Coccius yet acknowledged by Bellarmine Baronius and Possevine to be fained fabulous erronius Clemens his Apostolicall Constitutions and his Recognitions are urged many times by Coccius Harding and others the first of these by Baronius and Possevine the second by Bellarmine Baronius and Sixtus Senensis are rejected with many more Besides the Fathering of divers Treatises upon St. Cyprian upon St. Origen upon Saint Athanasius Saint Ambrose Saint Augustine and others of which I will not speake but referre the Reader to your owne greatest Writers Bellarmine Baronius Sixtus Senensis Possevine who in divers places do naile these Authors to the pillarie as false fained Witnesses and palpable forgerers wishing the learned Reader to have recourse unto these when hee readeth any ancient authoritie cited and alleaged by the Romanists and hee shall find it usuall amongst men of your side to quote cite and triumph in such forgeries as if they were true and undoubted testimonies as one of your side M. Fisher did alleage 27 Fathers for Invocation of Saints to which I having made an answer within the compasse of two daies for longer time hee would not grant me pretending that hee must be gone out of the Countrey I discovered so many forgeries and impertinencies as that in his next Reply hee fell off from 27 to 16 and of those 16 some also forged and very few or none at all to his purpose Amongst others hee doth triumph in a Quotation out of Athanasius in his Sermon de Sancta Deipera the words in that Sermon as hee cited them besides others are these O Mistresse Lady Queene and Mother of God make intercession for us then thus hee trumphs How now Master Rogers are you not yet contented to pray to Saints De Scriptor Ecclesiasticis 8. an 48. Platina Cusanus Marsil Pata Lauren. Val. Ant. Floren. Otho Fri. Hiron P. Cate. Volateranus Nauclerus Capnian Mullineus Aeneas Syl. Shall Saint Athanasius teach you your Ave Maria whereas this was but a forgerie for Bellarmine and Baronius doe hold it not to be written by Saint Athanasius and doe bring many reasons to prove the same and Bellarmine saith That it was not a worke of that Age but written after the sixth Councell which was above 300 yeares after Athanasius And to insist no further upon the forging of particular private men the most notorious injurious incroaching impudent forgerie was that of Constantines donation urged as true and undoubted by Harding and the forging of the Councell of Nice by Pope Sozimus the first of these two the donation of Constantine whereby he doth give and grant unto the Bishop of Rome all Italy France Denmark Sweden Britaine c. with authoritie and power over all the world more then that of the Empire is and that hee be honoured and worshipped more then the Emperour This is adjudged a forgerie by more then a Jurie of Roman Writers The other forgerie was discovered by a Councell of Africke consisting of 217 Bishops whereof Saint Augustine was one who wrote to the Pope thus Touching that you wrote unto us concerning the Nicene Councell in the very true Councell of Nice which wee have received from the happy Bishop of Alexandria and the Bishop of Constantinople wee find no such matter Boniface the second was so much moved hereat above an hundred yeares after as to say Ep. ad Eulalium That all these Bishops whereof Saint Augustine was one were all inflamed and led by the Devill Thus much concerning your forging Authorities But say that wee produce some Histories or Fathers which have not come under your Index Expurgatorius nor beene refined in your forge how will you slight scorne abase deride slander and revile them I know not whom of the Ecclesiasticall Historians nor whom of the Fathers you will admit for a Witnesse without exception For what Authors what Records shall serve against them who with a bold impudencie will deny those Historians who lived in the fittest time to write of those things which they have committed to memorie viz. in the Ages next following when they neither feare to offend the present nor with too much distance cannot discerne what is more remote Such as were the Histories of Eusebius Artic. Historiae non minus vetustate quam novitatae fabulosae injucundae sunt Bellarm. de Cler. l. 1. cap. 20. Baron Ann. 324. n. 19. especially of Socrates Sozomen Theodoret yet all these shall be rejected if they speake any thing that may disadvantage the Papacie as Socrates and Sozomen for relating the Storie of Paphnutius speaking for the married Clergie in the Councell of Nice are thus handled by Bellarmine Multa mentitur Sozomenus Socrates tria mendacia dicit Socrates Sezomenus haeretici Sozomen tels many lies Socrates tels three manifest lies Sozomen and Socrates were Haereticks Neither doth Baronius handle them any thing more respectively saying Sozomen was not advised behold into what errors ignorance hath cast him n. 22. it doth plainly appeare how far hee was deceived hee did erre concerning the Nicene Councell an 325. n. 10. Anno 169. concerning Paphnutius concerning Arrius an 327. n. 7. hee was deceived concerning the Councell of Ariminum and other things an 355. n. 27. hee doth often relate untruly concerning Athanasius an 335. n. 6. an 354. n. 21. an 356. n. 85. These were the things of greatest moment in that Age the Councell of Nice the most famous that ever was in the world The Haeresie of Arrius the greatest that ever was in the Church the labours troubles and constancie of Athanasius against this Haeresie of greatest note and most glorious of any Confessor that ever the Christian Church had before or since Sozomen lived in the fittest Age to be informed of these things in the fittest Church namely in the Greeke Church where these things were done and yet is he so full of errors in matters of greatest moment on which the eyes of all the Christians in the world stood at a gaze Is hee so full of errours in these things which were so cleare as the Sun in the firmament so many Records being preserved of those passages so many Letters passing from one Bishop to another must wee thinke that Baronius who lived 1200 yeares after and no member no Inhabitant of the Greeke Church knew these things better then Sozomen did and kicke him off with saying Hee was an impudent fellow an 324. n. 19. That hee was a Novatian Haereticke n. 63. But you would thinke that Baronius should not thus reject debase disgrace Sozomen unlesse
evills of this whole age ibidem The Queene Theodora did raise one Iohn a Minister of Ravennas whom she shamefully loved to be Pope Such was the unfortunate condition of the holy Church of Rome at that time that all things were governed and altered at the pleasure of a powerfull Whore Lando was no true Pope n. 12. d An. 915. n. 3. Iohn the 10 was an Intruder a Theefe a Ruffian e An. 925. n. 12. Quo turpior nullus cujus ingressus insamissimus exitus infandissimus dignus quem infamis foemina infami opere in Petri solium intrusisset The filthiest of all men who entred the Popedome shamefully and ended wickedly a fit man to be thrust by an infamous woman into the Chaire of Saint Peter Note the visibility of the Church of Rome O what was then the face of the holy Church of Rome was it not most foule and filthy when powerfull and base Whoores did rule all at Rome at whose pleasure Sees were changed Bishops were made and which will make a man tremble to heare and is more wicked then can be spoken their lovers falsly termed Popes thrust into Peters Chaire who had never been written in the Catalogue of Roman Bishops had it not been thereby to reckon the yeares and set downe the times For who can say that these men thrust in by Whoores without Law were lawfull Roman Bishops There was no man at all of the Cleargies Election or consent all Canons were silenced Decrees of Popes smoothered ancient Traditions and old Customes in chusing the Pope were banished the holy Ceremonies and former use were wholly extinguished Lust backed with worldly power mad Dormiebat tunc planè ut apparet sopore Christus and franticke with a desire of rule challenged all unto her selfe It appeareth plainely that Christ was then in a dead sleep in the ship when the strong winds thus blowing the ship it selfe was covered with the waves Ista non vtdere dissimulans I say hee was asleepe who dissembling as if hee did not see those things did suffer them so to be done and did not rise to vengeance And that which did seeme worse there were no Disciples who with their cries would awake their Master thus sleeping for they were all asleepe that they snored againe And what kind of Presbyter and Deacon Cardinals shall wee thinke were chosen by such Monsters seeing nothing is more firmly graffed in nature then this that like should beget like And who can doubt but that these did in all things consent unto those by whom they were chosen And who will not easily believe that they did imitate them and tread in their steps And who cannot understand that all these did wish that Christ had slept for ever Anno 912. n. 8. and should never wake nor rise in judgement to examine and punish their offences Thus farre Baronius But you will aske mee what needeth so much labour in shewing that wee had some bad times and some bad Popes for so you are used to extenuate all that wee alleadge in this kind You say that Christ himselfe having but twelve Apostles had one devill amongst them But what I have alleadged here doth shew that divers of those who supplied the place of Christ himselfe his Vicars generall upon earth as you terme them men to whom the Church is essentially joyned and must be obedient were devils monsters the dearlings of Whores some of them Bastard children of Popes by these notorious Whores and all their Priests Deacons and Cardinals like themselves so Atheisticall in their courses and desires as to wish that Christ might sleepe everlastingly and never rise to judgement nay the visible government of the Roman Church which you will have to be the onely Church was not so much in them as in these whores who made and unmade Bishops and Popes without any regard of Canons or Customes Ecclesiasticall and this wickednes was praevalent not for a few years or a few Popes but for this whole Age Toto hoc saeculo saith Baronius which is for 100 yeares Yet you Romanists will have all Christians in the world to behold and to be led by the visible Roman Church though the face and whatsoever was visible therein was most foule and filthy not onely in him who sate in the Chaire of Peter as you say but also in all his Consistorie in all his Deacons Priests and Cardinals But you will say These were no Popes then will I say that by your Doctrine you had no Church for the Pope is now a part of the definition of the Church with you and therefore no Pope no Church You know the Rule A parte definitionis negative sequitur argumentum Or will you say for so Baronius doth Shall any man shall all men in the world pin their soules upon the sleeves of such Monsters cleave unto them and be obedient unto them only because they sate in the Chaire though usurpingly And will you undertake to prove your Church to have had visible Professors in all Ages when in a whole Age there was nothing visible but what your selves are ashamed to looke backe upon You will have much adoe to find a Catalogue of names in this Age because you must not goe out of the Roman Church but wee acknowledge the Greeke Aethiopian Indian Armenian Syrian Churches have a larger scope and shall more easily passe through this difficultie seeing there was in this Age in Armenia one Nico magnus Baron An. 961. n. 4 8 10. Anno 976. n. 2. 980. n. 7 8 9. sanctus Orientis Praeco a great and holy Preacher of the East and the Church of Greece had in this Age two men famous for learning and holinesse Nilus and Nico as the same Baronius confesseth CHAP. XVIII Shewing a threefold Catalogue of Names from the Age wherein my former Catalogue did end unto Luthers time of such as professed and received the Faith and Sacraments of the reformed Church whom the Papists call Protestants MY first Catalogue Mr. Fisher shall be of Bishops Pastors and Writers of the Latine Church such as are acknowledged by your Church for Orthodox men of a right Faith Ab Anno 800 ad 900. Agobardus Episcopus Rem Rabanus Maurus Moganti Hincmarus Rem Amalarius Fortunatus Leo 3. Episcopus Rom. Ionas Aurelianensis Walafridus Strabo Theodulphus Aurelianensis Ab Anno 900 ad 1000. Baron An. 901. n. 10. Theodulphus Episcopus legatus Regis Franc. in Concilio Ovetensi Ermenegildus primus Archiepisc Ovetensis in Gallaecia Baron An. 900. n. 10. Fulco Remensis laudatissimus ille Archiepiscopus columen Francorum Baron An. 904. Grimbaldus Presbyter vir magnae sanctitatis in Anglia Iohannes Papa 9. qui tribus Conciliis à se celebratis summam sibi laudem comparavit velut alter Ieremias in cujus Epitaphio inter alia haec habentur Conciliis docuit ternis qui dogma salutis mox Et firmata fides quem
docuêre Patres 146. Baron An. 905. n. 4. Herveus Remensis who first converted the Normans to the Faith and held a Synod in which they said That the Rock whereon Christ promised to build his Church was the confession of Peter At this Councell were present also Rothomagensis Archiepiscopus Rodolphus Landunensis Episcopus Trodoardus Hist Rem l. 4. c. 13. Baron An. 930. Erlimus Bellovacensis Episcopus aliique multi Whose names are subscribed This Herveus held many Synods Vnus Hambargensis Archiepiscopus qui convertit Danos Glaber temporis ejus auctor Hist l. 2. c. 11 12. Baron An. 100 n. 4. Tom. 10. Lib. de officiis Missae edito Parisiis Anno 1610. Bellarm. de Script Ab Anno 1000 ad 1100. Lebuinus Episcopus in Gallis qui populum suum ex parte deceptum Catholicae plenius restituit fidei Anno 1000. Baronius n. 3. Petrus Archiepiscopus Ravennas qui Vilgardum Haereticum docentem fidei sacrae contraria damnavit Berno Augiensis Abbas qui testatur post Evangelium in missa recitari Symbolum Constantinopolitanum à Concilio Toletano statutum id omni die Dominico secundum morem Orientalium Ecclesiarum decantari In hoc Authore miror Bellarmini oscitantiam ne quid gravius dicam qui ita scripsit Ex quo libro cap. 2. viz. Baronius de officio Missae discimus hoc primum tempore coepisse in Rom. Ecclesia cani ad Missam Symbolum fidei Cum contrarium doceat Walafridus Strabo lib. de rebus Ecclesiasticis cap. 22. Qui vixit aliquot seculis ante Bernonem obiit enim ut placet Hiltorpio Anno 849. Berno autem Anno 1048. Et ipse ordo Romanus idem doceat apud Hiltorpium col 4. Miror inquam quod non distinxerit ambiguitatem vocis Romanae quae pro Latina Ecclesia saepe usurpatur cum hic intra urbem suburbicanas Ecclesias vel saltem intra Italiae fines claudatur ut apparet ex Bernone Micrologus whose Bookes of Ecclesiasticall Observations Pamelius doth preferre before all others that wrote upon that subject as Amalarius Walafridus doth witnesse Cap. 46. that Creed in Vnum c. viz. The Creed cōmonly reputed the Nicene Creed Iuxta Canones in omni Dominica debet cantari in omnibus c. according to the Canons is to be read upon every Lords day In his 19 chapter hee is very full for communicating in both kinds citing Ordo Romanus and Iulius Papa 36. Gelasius Papa 51. very peremptorie in this kind This Author lived about the yeare 1080 saith Pamelius in his Preface before the worke Ivo Carnotensis Episcopus who speaketh of our Sacraments and of the Apostles Creed professed in Baptisme Serm. de Sacramentis And in his Sermon De Convenientia veteris novi sacrificii he briefly proveth all the chiefe heads of Christian Faith who in the later end of that Sermon speaketh of communicating in both kinds And in his Sermon De coena Domini hee saith Let none of the Faithfull this day absent himselfe Dwell you in Christ that Christ may dwell in you and you be worthy Receivers of his Body and Blood Hee in his Sermon In Cathedra Sancti Petri saith That that Feast was in memoriall of that day wherein Peter at Antioch was made Bishop and Pastor of Gods people And that hee was called Peter because of the confession of his Faith Ab Anno 1100 ad 1200. Sanctus Bernardus Rupertus Tutiensis Algerus who denieth your halfe Communion citing those words of Pascasius under the name of Saint Augustine Nec caro sine sanguine Lib. 2. de corpor sang Christ cap. 8. Bellarm. nec sanguis sine carne ritè communicatur Rich. de Sancto Victore who refuseth your Canon of the Bible Hugo de Sancto Victore who denieth Penance to be a Sacrament Ab Anno 1200 ad 1300. Alexander of Hales who denieth the Sacrament of Confirmation as a Sacrament to be instituted by Christ parte 4. q. 5. membro 2. Hugo Cardinalis Bonaventura Both which denie your Canon of the Bible Hugo in his Prologue before Ecclesiasticus Bonaventura pr. parte q. 89. Art 8. ad 2. Gulielmus Episcopus Parisiensis Ab Anno 1300 ad 1400. Lib. 4. Sent. dist 26. Durandus hee denies Matrimonie to be a Sacrament Nicholaus Lyranus hee holdeth the same Canon of the Bible that wee doe and denieth yours Franciscus Mayron Qui inter alia scripsit de Articulis fidei Simon de Cassia Qui scripsit expositionem Symboli Apostolici Ab Anno 1400 ad 1500. Dionysius Carthusianus who denies your Canon of the Bible Prologo in Ecclesiasticum Gregorius Heymburgensis who wrote against the Popes Supremacie Panormitanus Picus Mirandula Hist Trid. Concilii Sleidanus in Commentariis Thomas Cajetanus who had conference with Luther All these are Latine Authors acknowledged by you of the Roman Church for Orthodox at least two of them in every Age which were sufficient but I can make it good for all out of Bellarmine Baronius Surius Hiltorpius or Synods allowed by your Church Thus therefore I argue Major All orthodox or right believing Christians doe receive and professe the Apostles Creed the Bookes of old and new Testament received for Canonicall by the Fathers of the first 400 yeares together with the Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper which the Protestants professe Minor But these Authors aforenamed in my Catalogue from the yeare 800 to the yeare 1500 are all orthodox or right believing Ergo Conclusio All these Authors aforenamed in my Catalogue from the yeare 800 to the yeare 1500 doe receive and professe the Apostles Creed the said Bookes of the old and new Testament the two Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper which the Protestants receive and professe Or thus Major Whosoever receive our whole Faith and all our Sacraments are of our Church and wee of theirs Minor But all these Authors receive our whole Faith and all our Sacraments Ergo Conclusio All these Authors are of our Church and wee of theirs But you having another Faith a new Creed new Articles cannot prove these or any other to have held that your new Faith entirely and I have shewed most of these Authors expresly to denie some one some another Article of your new Creed so that a man may be orthodox and yet denie your Faith your Creed No man can be saved that denieth the true Faith But many are saved who denie the Roman Faith Ergo The Roman Faith is not the true Faith The Major I know you will not denie The Minor you must grant or your Saints and greatest Writers were damned for want of your Faith A second Catalogue viz. of Greeke Authors who being of the Greeke Church did professe our Scriptures Faith Sacraments and Councels but doe reject divers points of the Roman Faith and all the Councels of the Latines since the yeare 800 as appeareth by their profession in the Councell at
I wrote thus As I did admonish Master Fisher to distinguish betweene Affirmation and Negation so I doe these men and that faith is Affirmation not Negation for no man beleeveth what he denieth Secondly In points of faith I like Master Fishers Rule They that are in the Affirmative must prove Now all that we affirme they affirme as one God three persons all the Creed So that we need not prove what our Adversaries do confesse But in those points in variance between us they are to prove because they are Affirmative we Negative as unwritten Traditions Latine Service Invocation of Saints c. Thus farre in my former Answer This is saying plainly this is not seeming Whereas you inferre that seeing all which is affirmed by Protestants is affirmed by Roman Catholikes and this Affirmative Doctrine onely doth pertaine to faith it will follow that Protestants have no faith different from Roman Catholikes I grant the Consequence what is this to the question whether we are of the visible Church or no this which you would inferre doth rather prove us to be a part of the visible Church then any way gaine-say it Thus They which have no other faith then that of the Church of Rome are parts of the visible Church But the Protestants have no other faith then that of the Church of Rome Ergo The Protestants are a part of the visible Church The minor Master Fisher would inferre out of my Grounds as if I would deny it no I grant it and so I hope will he the major then the conclusion must follow We differ from you in Ecclesiasticall Doctrines and Discipline which you terme to be points of faith but we deny They are corruptions of faith Innovations Idolatrous Antichristian Doctrines You would force them upon us as points of faith we refuse them because the Scripture doth not expresse them the Primitve Church did not know them and the greatest part of the Christian Church to this day doth not approve them And your owne writers are distracted into many and divers opinions concerning them Paulus venet l. 1. 2 What Antiquity have you for your halfe Communion Worshipping of Images c. What Universality seeing the Church of Greece of Syria the Georgians Circassians Mengiellians Breitenbachius Purgr c. de Iacobitis Vitrivius Histor orientalis c. 76. the Moscovits and Russians the Christians of Babylon of Assyria Mesopotamia Parthia Media of Cassar Samarcham Charcham Chinchtalis Tanguth Suchir Ergimal Tenduck Caracam Mangi the Iacobits whose Sect is extended and spred abroad in some fourty Kingdomes which I assure my selfe is more large then all the Roman Church do communicate in both kindes worship not Images deny Purgatory and which with you is more then all the rest deny the Popes Supremacy So you have neither Antiquity nor Universality to which I might adde nor Consent among your selves in those additions of yours contained in your new Creed As for one Instance the Councell of Trent hath made the bookes of Machabees Canonicall Melitus Sav. Origenes Athanasius Hilarius Epiphanius Cyrillus Nazianzen Amphiloch Hieronymus Ruffinus which is left out of the Canon by ten Fathers that is I take it by all the Fathers that dyed within 400 yeares after the Incarnation and wrot of that subject Your Nicholaus Lyranus Dionysius Carthusianus Hugo and Thomas de Vio Cardinals whereof this last was one of the most learned that ever the Church of Rome had insomuch that in the Councel of Trent it was said I thinke no man heere doth thinke himselfe so great a Divine but that he might learne of Cajetan All these I say of your side exclude those Bookes from the Canon as we doe yet will you not say they were of another faith then the Church of Rome which you must say if your new Creed and Decrees of Councels be points of faith as you here say And lest you should escape with your wandring discourses and your flying from the question I will presse my argument in forme Whosoever denyeth the new Creed or any Articles thereof the Councell of Trent or any Doctrine thereof is an Hereticke and denyeth the faith But Carthusianus and Thomas de Vio Cajetan both Cardinals deny some Articles of the new Creed and some Doctrines of the Councell of Trent Ergo Lyra Carthusianus and Thomas de Vio are Hereticks and deny the faith I am sure you will hold this Conclusion to be false if so then one of the premisses must be false not the minor ergo the major which is your Tenet whereby you would proue us to be Hereticks and to deny the faith Fisher Out of which it will further follow that those English Protestants who shall hold some of the 39 Articles and deny the rest may be said to have no faith different from those which subscribe to all the 39 Articles Rogers I grant it doth follow so that those same Articles which they deny be not those Articles which concerne the Unity of the Godhead the Trinitie of persons and all those things which are contained in the Creed I say therefore they differ in Ecclesiasticall Doctrines or Discipline not in faith so they receive the Scriptures and Apostles Creed Fisher Which last consquence if Master Rogers grant I aske why the bookes of Canons doth excommunicate ipso facto such halfe Protestants Rogers They may be excomunicated for gaine saying Ecclesiasticall Doctrines or the established Discipline of the Church they may be excommunicated as erroneous Shismaticks Fisher Why doe their Bishops imprison them as Hereticks and not account them members of their Church Rogers Andrewes in his Defence of the Apologie for the other Bilson in his perpetuall government of the Church Carleton against the Appeal They must be imprisoned as Schismaticks Our Bishops doe all professe that there are no Puritane Doctrines that the difference is onely in matter of Discipline they count them neither Hereticks nor wholly excluded out of the Church here you have supposed two falshoods in two lines those learned Protestants from beyond the Seas whose Discipline doth somewhat vary from ours doe testifie that the purity of Doctrine doth flourish in England purely and sincerely So Beza from Geneva that by Queeene Elizabeths comming to the Crowne God againe had restored his Doctrine and true worship So Zanchius that the whole compasse of the world hath never seene any thing more to be wished then is her Government So Daneus Fisher And why not Roman Catholicks by as good or better right account Protestants who deny so many points defined in both ancient and recent Generall Councels to be Hereticks Excommunicated and no members of the Ancient and present Catholick Church Rogers If we did the one you may doe the other but I have shewed the falshood of your supposition that we count them Hereticks who discent from us in any of our Articles they may be erroneous in a lesser nature then Heresie turbulent in those errours they may be Schismaticks