upon the same grounds turn Christianity out of doors and own it to be built on no better foundation than the Ignorant Zeal and Confidence of its Asserters The Motive of St. Augustin for his embracing the Scriptures for the Word of God was the Authority of the Catholic Church he expresly declaring cont Ep. Fundam That he would not believe the Gospel except the Authority of the Catholic Church mov'd him to it From this same Authority it is he receives every Article of his Faith and since in his very Creed he is taught to believe the Holy Catholic Church he thinks he has Reason enough to do it And whosoever taxes him of Weakness or Confidence for so doing do's nothing less than call him a Fool for believing his Creed and this is only one Remove from telling him that if he 'll be Wise and have good Reasons for what he do's he must be no Christian Others may be so Wise as to believe only Eleven Articles of their Creed for his part he thinks it no reflection upon his Wisdom to believe Twelve he was taught so many when he was a Child and he do's not find he has outgrown any one of the number This Catholic Church which by the Creed every Christian is bound to believe is as was explicated in our last the Congregation of all true Believers under the Government and Direction of Pastors and Teachers in an uninterrupted Succession descending from the Apostles who by Gods appointment are set over the Flock to feed and rule it and whom the Flock is oblig'd to hear and obey and whose Faith they are bound to follow in each respective Age. 'T is thus deliver'd to him by St. Paul Heb. 13. 7 17. Remember them which have the Rule over you whose Faith follow Obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves And this way of the Faithful receiving their Instruction in the Christian Belief from the Catholic Church speaking to them by the Pastors and Teachers of the said Church which is the Method he observes as to every Article of his Faith has been always look'd on so sound and reasonable that in the time of the very Apostles and of the Primitive Church there was never any us'd but this 't was by this means the World first became Christian and by the very same Orthodox Christianity has been always preserv'd in its vigour and purity notwithstanding all the oppositions of Subtle Malicious or Self-interested Adversaries He that has but read the Scriptures cannot but have observ'd that the Method prescrib'd by Cbrist himself for the planting and propagating the Mysteries of his Holy Faith in the World was by ordaining and commissionating Apostles and Disciples to inform all Mankind of his Doctrine and Religion and the only Reasonable Means for any at that time to arrive to the certain Knowledge of the True Faith was to hear and submit to the Doctrine deliver'd by Those that were thus sent to Preach and Teach it This is the way by which the Christian Religion was first planted in the World and by this it has been ever since maintain'd The same Pastors and Overseers that were to teach the Gospel having another part of their Charge viz. To stand up in case of any Difficulties or Divisions arising in Point of Faith and by their Decision to put an end to the Controversie So to preserve Unity amongst the Faithful and defeat all the attempts of Turbulent and Presuming Spirits This Method of Pastors and Teachers directing and feeding and the Obligation of the Flock to Submit and Obey as necessary for continuing One Faith amongst Believers he has learnt to be Reasonable and of Divine Institution from the Practice of the Apostles For he finds Acts 15. that a Controversie being started at Antioch concerning the necessity of Circumcision 't was not left to every Particular Believer to think and decide the matter as they judge fit according to the best of their Knowledge and Parts neither did Paul and Barnabas with other Overseers of the Church of Antioch undertake to define any thing in this Particular No what was the Common Concern of all Christians was not to be determin'd by the Rulers and Pastors of any Particular Church but as belonging to All 't was to be remitted to the Consideration and Decision of Those who had All under their Charge that is the Pastors of the Vniversal or Catholic Church And thus did Paul and Barnabas for going up to Jerusalem the Cause was committed to the Hearing and Sentence of All the Apostles and Elders assembled at Jurusalem And as 't was determin'd by Them thus in Body 't was receiv'd by the Faithful with consolation not only at Antioch but in all other Places wheresoever the Gospel of Christ was preach'd by the Apostles who as they went through the Cities deliver'd them the Decrees for to keep that were ordain'd of the Apostles and Elders who were at Jerusalem Act. 16. 4. This was the Practice of the Apostles as it stands recorded in Holy Writ providentially there describ'd that their Successors the Rulers and Pastors of the Church in future Ages from this Authentic President might be provided of a Means whereby to maintain a Vnity in Faith amongst all True Believers however spread throughout the different and divided Nations of the Universe and know how to give a check to all growing Schisms and Heresies As therefore the Apostles put a stop to this Debate concerning the Circumcision by determining in Council in what manner the Faithful were to be taught were to believe and do in this Particular and by this Determination preserv'd the Vnity of Spirit in the Bond of Peace amongst the Faithful and prevented the many Divisions which otherwise might have torn the Flock asunder had they been every one lest to their own thoughts to judge of it as they pleas'd In like manner did the Pastors of the Church succeeding them in their Charge in the like Circumstances for when there appear'd any entring in among the Flock as was foretold by St. Paul Act. 20. 29. and like grievous Wolves not sparing it but speaking Perverse things to draw away Disciples after them The Overseers who were to feed the Church of God and commanded by the same Apostle to Watch and take heed to all the Flock ib. v. 28. assembled in Council and by their Determination declar'd to all under their Charge the Faith deliver'd and directed them which way to believe as to the Point in debate This was the Practice of the Primitive Church when as yet acknowledg'd Pure and Vncorrupted Thus did the Pastors then in the First General Council at Nice decide the Controversie rais'd by Arius thus they did in the Second at Constantinople in the Third at Ephesus in the Foutth at Chalcedon The Faithful always receiving with great Veneration the Determination of their Pastors thus Assembled and looking upon this Submission to their Doctrine as the most Reasonable Means whereby
to secure themselves from falling into Error And this same Method thus happily begun by the Apostles and continu'd on by the Practice of the Primitive Church it is which he observes in every Article of his Faith there being no one Point amongst all those controverted amongst Christians which he assents to but as derermin'd by the Pastors of the Catholic Church assembled who have the care of the Flock and whom by the command of Christ and his Apostles he is bound to submit to and obey Misrepresent This is the very thing I charge you with for pray now what do you make of all this Is not this pinning your Faith upon other mens sleeves Is not this shutting your own Eyes and running blindfold after other mens Phancies Represent Speak sincerely Misrepresenter and don 't dissemble Don't I do in this the very thing prescrib'd by Christ himself commanded and practis'd by the Apostles and faithful then living and follow'd by the Church of the purest Ages And if this be running blindfold with you and pinning of my Faith upon other mens sleeves what do you in the mean time make of the Bible which gives these Directions Are not you a great Dissembler in pretending a veneration to that Divine Law while you contemn and ridicule the Doctrine it delivers Misrepresent God has given you Reason to examine and weigh things and to guide your self and this wilful slavery is not well pleasing to Him by which you let other mens Imaginations tyrannize it over your own Reason and Judgment Represent In observing the Rule I have laid down to you as to my Belief I make use of the best of my Reason and follow it to the utmost of my endeavours For since God has been pleas'd to appoint and ordain Pastors and Overseers to feed and take care of the Flock my Reason tells me 't is more prudent and safe for me to Obey and submit my self to them Heb. 13. 17. and to follow their Faith v. 7. upon the warrant of God's Command than forsaking them to follow my own Private judgment without any other authority than of my own Confidence and Presumption Tell me Misrepresenter do's not thy Reason tell thee 't is more reasonable to think that three four or six hundred Able and Learned Pastors met together out of the several Parts of Christendom in a concern properly belonging to their Place and Charge can Reason consider weigh and judge of it better than One of the Flock If so why do you slander me for shutting my Eyes and hoodwinking my Reason whenas I in submitting to the Consideration and Judgment of so many do govern my self more according to Reason than you who contemning so great a Number chose rather to follow one who being your own self are likely to incur the censure commonly given to those who will be both Masters and Scholars to themselves Those therefore that defame the Papists for having no good Reasons for their Religion and Worship there 's some reason to think begin to talk of Reason before they are throughly acquainted with it or know well what it is Misrepresent Come stop here a little if you can Have you seen the Answer to your First Sheet He accuses you of transcribing in substance what was writ upon the same Subject in the First Part. Represent He 's Angry so no great fear of him His first attempt is to undervalue his Adversary but this wont do with Understanding Men. For tho it were as he says They know what is True must of necessity be always the same and cannot be repeated too often And as for Repetitions tho it were in the Afternoon of what was said the very same Day in the Morning you know as the World goes is no great Reflection And for the First Part 't is now near two years since 't was publish'd Misrepresent You discredit and reject the Divines and School-men Represent No I only blame those who endeavour to spoil their Neighbour through Philosophy and vain deceit Coloss 2. 8. disturbing the Faithful with Speculative Notions allowable enough within School-walls but easily made use of by ill men amongst Crowds to the confusion of all Religion I 'll let them wrangle about Worship Absolute and Relative as they do about seeing but tell me must I shut my eyes or say I don't see because they can't agree how and in what manner I see Misrepresent You trim up Similitudes and Resemblances but don 't at all state the case or shew what we are to trust to Represent I know of little more there is in the whole case besides the Equivocation about the Word Worship You find this Expression of Worshipping Images in some of our Books and in the Catechism ad Parochos 't is said they are set up ut colantur to be worship'd And here you presently catch at this and run away with it in Triumph boasting to your unthinking Auditory that you have prov'd the Papists Idolaters out of their own Books and Councils because they profess a Worship due to Images But do you hear don't be too hasty in passing Sentence and drawing Consequences 't is easie out-running all the bounds of Charity if you are too much upon the spur in this affair You and yours Misrepresenter ought to consider that this one and the same Word Worship signifies very different Conceptions and almost as many sorts of Respect Honour and Veneration as there are different degrees of Excellency in the World. There 's an Honour due to Parents and this is properly call'd in Latin Colere Parentes to worship or honour our Parents There 's an Honour due to Magistrates which may be term'd a Worship as by their Title they are stil'd Worshipful There 's an Honour due to Kings which in Scripture is express'd by Adoring or Worshiping as in 1 Chron. 29. 20. where 't is said All the Congregation bowed down their heads and Worshiped the Lord and the King. There 's an Honour due to the Martyrs or Saints departed which is likewise call'd a Worship and therefore St. Augustine says expresly Contr. Faust l. 20. c. 2. We Worship the Martyrs with that Worship of Love and Society with which even in this life Holy Men of God are Worshiped But we Worship them the Martyrs so much the more devoutly because more securely There 's again a certain Reverence and suitable Respect due to some Things which have an eminent Relation to God and his Service as the Answerer here confesses p. 5. such are the Bible the Images of Christ c. and this certain Reverence and Respect is term'd likewise Worship so 't is properly said Colere Imaginem Christi Colere Sancta Evangelia There 's an Honour in sine due to God which is call'd still by some Word Worship in Greek Latria as St. Augustine ib. has it which is a certain service properly due to the Divinity with which we neither Worship the Martyrs nor teach them to be worshiped but God alone Do you
Authority of the Church as being to decide Controversies of Faith Art. 20. and this is not to ordain or enforce any thing to be believ'd that is against the Scripture But whether that which it decides be against or according to Scripture this every man is to decide again by his own private Reason They maintain the Authority of General Councils But because these may err Art. 21. their Decrees have neither Strength nor Authority unless it may be declar'd that they be taken out of Holy Scripture But whether de facto they be taken out of Scripture or no this every Private Man must judge for himself And this Dr. Burnet asserts positively in his Exam. of Meth. p. 82. The Principle of Protestants with relation to the majority even in a General Council is That when any Doctrines are establish'd or condemn'd upon the Authorities of the Scriptures those who differ from them and do think that the Council misunderstood the Scriptures are bound to suspect themselves a little and to review the matter with greater application Yet if they are requir'd to profess that they believe opinions which they think false if they were never so inconsiderable no man ought to go against his Conscience And if any Synod of Protestants has decreed any thing contrary to this in so far they have departed from the Protestant Principles But the whole matter is more fully express'd by the Author of the Discourse before mentioned Concerning a Judge of Controversy Who p. 11. at the bottom clears it thus If you ask whose Judgment ought to take place the Judgment of the Church or of every private Christian I answer says he and mark it The Judgment of the Church of necessity must take place as to external Government to determine what shall be profess'd and practis'd in her Communion and no private Christian has any thing to do in these matters But when the Question is What is Right or Wrong True or False in what we may obey and in what not Here every Private Christian who will not believe without understanding nor follow his Guides blindfold must judge for himself and 't is as much as his Soul is worth to judge right Don't you see here there 's no Authority so Great and Safe amongst them but what is to be subject to the Censure of every Private Christian And tho' there be the Name of such a thing as a Church yet let that Command prescribe and ordain what it will to be receiv'd as the Truth and Faith of Christ 't is not That is to be obey'd or believ'd but being esteem'd as a piece of Formality not to be relied on every Man when he thinks fit must set himself up above Church and Authority and ee'n judge for himself Is not here every Controversy left to the decision of the Private Spirit And under the Notion of a Church a gate open'd to all the Fanaticisms and Quakerisms in the World By the Creed all Christians are bound to Believe the Holy Catholic Church And St. Paul Heb. 13. v. 7. commands all to Obey and Submit to those that are over them and this not only as to External Government but likewise as to Truth and Belief and therefore says he v. 7. Whose Faith follow But here you see tho' your Divines maintain the Authority of a Church yet there 's no Obligation on any Members of submitting to it as to any Point of Faith They must acknowledge it indeed as to the Governing or Politic part But as to the Christian or Believing part here every Christian as to what he is to obey and what not is to judge for himself And pray now what do's all this end in but the Private Spirit Can it desire any fairer Plea than this Certainly this their Church were it the Catholic Church the Ground and Pillar of Truth 't would not thus be commendably left to be over-rul'd by every Private Man's Reason There would not be this liberty for every one to run astray from it by preferring their own Judgment before the Decision and Judgment of the Church 'T was said heretofore and we know by whom Let him that do's not hear the Church he as a Heathen and a Publican But now it seems That Man alone is as Blind as a Heathen or Publican who do's not rather hear himself than the Church I wonder how long this has been so Misrepresent I le warrant you now you have got in your Head the Question Where was the Protestant Church before Luther But don't reproach this Church and perswade the World she is as yet but in her Infancy If you have seen a Book entit'led The Antiquity of the Protestant Religion You 'l see it there prov'd That the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally profest in the Christian World before the Reformation p. 1. Represent You have brought in this Question now by Head and Shoulders But since 't is staâ—ted satisfie me so far as to let me know where this Church was before the Pretended Reformation In what Country or Nation was it Visible Whether in the Eastern or Western World We have a fair Historical account of it from Luther's time to our days But I would willingly know where it was in all those Fifteen Hundred years from Christ's Ascension to the coming of the Prophet Luther as he is styl'd by Slydan Misrepresent Why this Author of the Antiquity of the Protestant Religion asserts it positively and proves That the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally profest in the Christian World before the Reformation And sure you that pretend to History and Religion cannot be ignorant Where that Religion was which was Anciently and Generally profest amongst Christians throughout the World. Represent Certainly then This Man must have had some extraordinary Revelation or made some New Discovery For the former Protestants who liv'd nearer Luthâ—r's time knew nothing of this Religion being Generally profess'd â—oannes Regius lib. Apol p. 176 Bishop Jewel Apol. p. 4. c. 4. d. 2. and Mr. Parkins Eâ—poâ— Cre p. 400. confeâ—s that before the days of Luther and Zuingliâ— the Church viz. Protestant was Invisible unknown unheard of that for the space of many hundred years an Vniversal Apostacy overspread the Whole face of the Earth and this Church was not then visible to the World. So that by what I see Authors don't agree in this matter And then besides this in a late Famillar Discourse betwixt a Minister and his Parishioner The Question being propos'd p. 14 Where was your Religion as it is now reform'd when Luther began his Reformation As to this particular the Minister answers It may be 't was in the Greek in the Abassine and Aegyptian Churches amongst the Armenian Christians It may be 't was in a Corner under a Cloud covered with Rubbish What if we say 't was no where Misrepresent Well and what then Represent Nothing but that I see 't is very hard to be found some find it Generally profess'd
THE Catholic Representer OR THE PAPIST Misrepresented AND REPRESENTED Second Part. Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty For his Houshold and Chappel 1687. THE CONTENTS CHAP. I. OF the Veneration shewn to Images of Christ the Virgin Mary c. Whether the Papists Pray to Images in Relation to a Passage of a Book Entituled A Catechism truly Representing the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome and its Vindication CHAP. II. Whether Papists Pray directly to the Cross as is positively Asserted by a Protestant with an Essay of a Heathen-Catechism after the Copy of the Truly-representing Protestant-Catechism in which this Calumny is publish'd CHAP. III. Whether the Doctrine of Transubstantiation be contrary to the Writings of the Primitive Fathers or agreeable to them The Papist believes his Senses in this Mystery as much as the Protetant being Notes upon a late Pamphlet Entituled The Papists Doctrine of Transubstantiation not agreeable to the Primitive Fathers CHAP. IV. The Form of the Catholic Church Establish'd by Christ No hopes of Salvation out of it The Practice of the Apostles and Primitive Church in this Point Good at this day The Protestants as uncharitably Damn the Papists as These are said to do the Protestants In reference to the Preface of Wholsom Advices from the B. V. c. CHAP. V. The Papist as to the Articles of his Belief follows the Method prescrib'd by Christ practis'd by the Apostles and the Primimitive Church The Method is of Divine Institution and more according to Reason than what Others follow The Word Worship is Equivocal and acknowledg'd so by St. Austin CHAP. VI. The Papist do's not Believe but upon most Convincing Reasons Mysteries of Faith above Reason not contrary to it The Papist is not depriv'd of the Word of God nor kept from the Knowledge of the Gospel He do's not Pray to the Cross more than Protetestants Pray to their Bibles or the Sacrament Three Protestant Queries Answer'd CHAP. VII The Vulgar among the Papists not depriv'd of the Word of God. They are better Instructed in the true Sense of it than those of other Perswasions who Teach themselves The Vnlearned and Vnstable wrest it to their own Destruction CHAP. VIII The Vulgar not permitted to read the Bible among the Papists for fear they should discover the Errors of their Religion an Absurd Calumny The Restraint is That there may not be as many different Words of God as there are Heads amongst them and may have something better Ground than their own Imagination to direct their Faith. A Word to a Lay-Friend CHAP. IX The Scriptures not always the Same to the same Person No Possibility of meeting in One Faith whilst Private Reason sets up for Interpreter of the Word of God. The Sham-Story of the Frogs and Crabs The Truth of the Anniversary Solemnity CHAP. X. Private Interpretation of Scriptures the Occasion of Divisions Some Protestant Divines call in the Assistance of Authority and Guides but all ends in the Private Spirit The Question started Where was the Protestant Religion as it is now Reform'd before Luther The Answers of some Protestant Divines CHAP. XI An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor For the Satisfaction of those who desire to know whether the Protestant Religion was generally Profess'd amongst the Christians of those Purer Times CHAP. XII Protestant Historians shew us Popery in the Primitive Church under Constantine but no Protestancy The Christians of that Age never Protested against the Popish Doctrines professedly Taught and Practis'd in those Times Therefore they were no Protestants An Enquiry into the Religion of the Ages succeeding Constantine CHAP. XIII The Professors of Popish Doctrines in the Primitive Times no Protestants but Papists Popish Tenets not only the Opinions of Private Doctors but the Doctrine of the Primitive Church The Four First General Councils no Protestants CHAP. XIV No Protestant Harangue in the First Four General Councils to fill the Fathers Heads with Fears and Jealousies No Canons made by the said Fathers to prevent the Growth of Popery at that Time professedly Taught and Practis'd is an Argument that the Fathers of those Councils were no Protestants CHAP. XV. The Appeal of Protestants to the Primitive Fathers shewn Injurious to Protestancy from the Concessâ—ons of Protestant Writers Luther the Apostle of the Reformatiâ—â— disclaims the Doctrine of the Fathers as not being for his purpose of Reforming CHAP. XVI A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy The Art of Interpreting do's Feats it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity THE PAPIST Misrepresented AND Represented SECOND PART CHAP. I. Of the Veneration shewn to Images of Christ the Virgin Mary c. Whether the Papists pray to Images in Relation to a Passage of a Book Entituled A Catechism truly Representing the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome and its Vindication THe Papist Misrepresented worships the Images of Christ and his Saints he kisses them uncovers his Head falls down before them offers Incense and Prays to them and uses all such Postures of Worship as he would do to the Person or Persons thereby represented if they were present And whosoever thinks otherwise amongst them is accursed Catech. truly repres the Doctr. of the Ch. of Rome p. 42. THe Papist Represented is taught That the Images of Christ of the Virgin Mary and other Saints ought to be kept and especially in Churches and due Honour and Veneration given them not for that any Divinity or Vertue is believed to be in them or that any thing is to be asked of them or any confidence to be placed in them as was anciently done by the Heathens who put their trust in Idols but because the Honour which is exhibited to the Images is referr'd to the Prototype or Thing represented by them So that by the Images which he kisses and before which he kneels or puts off his hat he adores Christ and reverences his Saints whom the said Images represent This is what He is taught and are the Words of the Council of Trent Sess 25. And tho some endeavour to cast an Infamy upon this Doctrine and Practice by letting loose the School-debates amongst the multitude and raising Mists and Confusion from the disagreeâ—ng Opinions of Divines Yet in honest Practice he 's conscious to himself of doing no more than what he sees done every Day by such who commendably follow the regular Motions of Humane Nature the Dictates of unbiass'd Reason First therefore as Men judge it nothing but Decent and Reasonable to set forth and adorn their Houses with the Pictures of such Persons as belong to their Family of their old Friends Benefactors Governours such as they esteem and whose Memory they desire to preserve and honour So he cannot but think it as agreeable to Reason that the House of God be
set forth with the Memories of such Eminent Persons who by a singular Favour of Heaven have been made chosen Vessels for the Propagation of the Religion there profess'd or have sealed the Truth of the Doctrine there delivered with the Effusion of their dearest Bloud This God himself did in a manner direct and approve when filling Bezaleel and Aholiâ—b Exod. 35. 31. with the Spirit of God in Wisdom in Vnderstanding and in Knowledge He Inspir'd them to make Two Cherubims of Gold Exod. 37. 7. on the side of the Mercy Seat openly declaring by this Fact the best Ornaments of his Seat and House here on Earth to be the Images Pictures and Representations of those Divine Spirits who are continually finging Praises to him before his Throne in Heaven This he was pleas'd to suggest to the Jews tho so prone to Idolatry and why should Christians be so Squeamish as not to follow when the Finger of God himself is giving Direction not in any Ceremony particularly relating to that People but in the Ornament of that Place which by his own Order was consecrated to his Presence and Service But 't is not all Christians even of Those Separated from the Communion of his Church that wholy disallow of this Practice there are several degrees amongst them as to this particular The Lutheran Protestants have their Altars and Church Walls set out with the Images and Pictures of the Apostles of the Virgin Mary of Christ upon the Cross c. Other Protestants who think the best temper of Religion to be in the Compounding Luther and Calvin together dare not go so far and therefore instead of Christ and his Apostles expose only two Saints of the old Law Moses and Aaron in their holy Places admitting generally too the Judaical Ornament of the Ark some Cberubims over their Church doors and Windows but nothing of a Cbristian Representation besides a Modern Sainted Queen This is in such Churches where the Clamours of the Croud overrule where nothing more of Cbrist must appear for fear of offending tender Consciences with the looks and smell of Popery whilst yet in other Places as in some Cathedrals and Vniversities where the People don't awe the Clergy where the Charge of Popery is neglected and the Walls and Windows not left as naked as senceless Fears would have them Cbrist and his Apostles stand with as much Veneration as Moses and Aaron elswhere and a Primitive Martyr is as becoming an Ornament as Queen Elizabeth And this seems so reasonable to some true Sons of this Church that they think nothing more suitable to their Retirement where they design to converse with Heaven than a Crucifix thâ— this Practice some think fit to wave for fear of raising Jealousies in their Family and becoming the talk of the Neighbourhood And this which he sees thus approv'd by many and practis'd by some Protestants he owns and declares for the allow'd and establish'd Practice of his Church So that to be a Papist in this particular is nothing more than to think the Pictures of Christ of his Apostles and Saints to be as ornamental in a Cbristian House as others of Relations Benefactors or Emperours c. And not to joyn hands with him who broke in pieces the Image of Christ upon the Cross while he left those of the Two Thieves stand untoucht 'T is to look upon the Cross or Crucifix as proper in a Church to shew that that Place and Congregation belongs to Christ as the Lion and the Vnicorn or Kings Arms to Intimate that they own the King as Supreme Governour 'T is to esteem the Apostles and Martyrs as fit to have place there for preaching the Gospel there deliver'd and ratifying it with their Bloud as Moses and Aaron for publishing the Commandments or as Queen Elizabeth for establishing the Religion by her Statutes As he is a Papist therefore he cannot have a good Opinion of those who love all sorts of Pictures whether of Relations Landskips Monsters Dogs or Devils but can brook nothing of Christ or his Mother who with Satisfaction enough can Admit of Mahomet Luther Calvin a suffering Russel or Sidney The Saviour of the Nation any Prophane or Immodest Picture whatsoever but presently turn Stomach at the sight of the Worlds Redeemer upon the Cross at any Passage of Christs Passion or sacred Mystery of our Religion represented in Colours No better Christians can he esteem those who cannot endure to be without their Signet to shew their Family who cannot see their Shops or Sign-Posts without the Arms of the Company they are Free of who must have their Scutcheon over their Hall doors to publish the Corporation they belong to and yet can allow of nothing to shew they are Christians who can see Crosses on their Houses and Walls both private and public on their Signs Barges their Ships and Colours as often as you will to speak them belonging to Citizens but a Cross to declare themselves Christians they repute as intollerable These he cannot much esteem for their Christianity as to this Point since he sees they are ashamed of nothing but what is to shew them to be Christians Secondly as to what concerns the Respect and Veneration He shews to Sacred Images of Christ his Mother or Apostles c. he does nothing but what Nature and Reason oblige him too and to explicate what this is he needs no more than declare that as a Loyal Wife who has a tender Love and sincere Respect for her Husband cannot chuse from the pressing Impulse of innocent Nature but have a Love and Respect for his Picture and expresses that Love by kissing it and hanging it at her Breast in the same manner He having a hearty Love and true Honour in his Soul for his Blessed Redeemer Apostles and Martyrs of Christ cannot hinder the irresistable force of Nature from having a Respect and Honour for their Pictures and this same Respect he expresses by kissing them placing them in his Oratory the Church c. Again as Christians Honour and Respect the Bible above all other Books and tho it be made of nothing but Paper Ink Leather Pastboard like all other Volumes yet because the Stroks of that Ink are so order'd and joyn'd in that Paper that they Signifie and Represent to him the Doctrine and Passion of Christ c. for this Reason they cannot chuse but Love and Respect and Honour this Book and if in reading and perusing it any more devout than the rest express these Sentiments of their Souls by kissing it never taking it into their Hands but with an awful Reverence with their Heads uncovered and on their bended knees they do nothing but to the Honour and Glory of God and what may without Superstition or Suspicion of giving Idolatrous Worship to the Paper or Ink of that Book be paid to that Sacred Volume and what has been the Practice of many holy Christians and Saints Upon the same Account and for the
Clouts and some other Reports that have been warmly carried about this last Month by Men of all Coats came all out of the same Miâ—t And were it not that the People you deal with were so wonderfully short-memory'd when a Lie is discover'd and again so wretchedly Credulous when a Fresh one is Broach'd these Fictions would be your utter Confusion But I 'll tell you the Truth of all this matter There 's a Mourning Hearse indeed plac'd in the Chappels in Memory of the Deceas'd Party and Prayers are offer'd up for his Soul after the Practice of the Primitive Church in the time of her Purity above Thirteen hundred years ago and as 't was then perform'd to Constantine the First Christian Emperour whose Body after his Decease as 't is related by Eusebius l. 4. de Vit. Const c. 71. being expos'd upon a stately Throne great numbers of People together with the Priests offer'd up Prayers to God not without Sighs and Tears for the Soul of the Emperour thus performing a most acceptable Office to their Prince of Pious Memory And this Pious Office was not only perform'd to the Faithful Departed at the time of their Departure but every year at the return of that Day and thus says Tertullian l. 10. de Monog c. 10. speaking of a Christian Widow She prays for his her Husbands Soul and makes Oblations on the Anniversary days of his Departure This is what VVe now do and all that is perform'd in our Chappels but for the Erogs and Crabs they are no where but in your Brains Misrepresent I 'll send some to see within a day or two Represent You have enough ready to go upon such an Errand If they bring you any Crabs or Frogs thence pray let me have a sight of them Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel MDCLXXXVI THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. X. Private Interpretation of Scriptures the Occasion of Divisions Some Protestant Divines call in the assistance of Authority and Guides but all ends in the Private Spirit The Question started Where was the Protestant Religion as it is now Reform'd before Luther The Answers of some Protestant Divines Represent YOu broke off my last Discourse with your Dream of Frogs and Crabs But I 'll take it up now and therefore I must tell you I cannot but admire your Procedings in leaving the Holy Bible to the Vulgar to be scann'd and Interpreted by them at pleasure 'T is evident they being of Different Capacities and Inclinations they can never so agree in their Interpretations as to meet in One Faith to be of One Mind and One Spirit as is commanded by St. Paul. 1 Cor. 1. 10. This is too clearly Demonstrated in the Distractions of this our Nation where so many setting up for Interpreters of Scripture there are Religious Sects Divisions Perswasions Faiths and Creeds multiplyed without number to the scandal of the Christian Name every-one pretending to the Truth while yet these being so numerous the true Faith is but One One God and one Faith Eph. 4. 5. And the Reason of these divisions is obvious For tho' the Bible is but one in all their Hands yet this Sacred Book doe's not instruct and direct them but by certain means to be us'd on their part And these Means being according to D. Reynolds and Whitaker The reading it their conference of Places their weighing of the circumstances of the Text their skill in the Tongues their Diligence and Prayer How is it possible they should all agree in their Expositions of H. Writ since these Actions on their behalf are but Humane Endeavours Subject to Error Oversight Infirmity and as different as their several Parts and Capacities Can all compare Texts alike Can they all weigh Circumstances alike Are they all skill'd in Languages alike How then shall they be instructed and directed alike when their Instruction and Direction as to the Christian Faith depends upon these Means And while they thus rely on their own endeavours their own searching and interpreting the Scriptures as the Means whereby to arrive to the True Faith is it not a miserable thing to consider that these Divided Christians having rejected the Interpretation of the Catholic Church do now every one rely on so unsafe Means for their Faith and Salvation that no man dares trust to but themselves that is every Private Person on his own Private Search and Interpretation of H. Writ Which whilst every one depends on for himself yet no body dares trust to besides nor think it sufficient whereon to build their Salvation And the result of this is to bring all to the Private Spirit Misrepresent I have let you run on so long declaiming against the Interpretations of the Private Spirit to see what you wou'd be at And now you have spent so much breath you have at last said nothing but in the air Why We are not for the Private Spirit If you read Mr. Sa. Crispe 's Sermon at the Primary Visitation of the Bishop of Norwich 1686. You 'l see the Guidance of the Private Spirit prov'd nothing better than Enthusiasm p. 6. That it has made so much havock in the World in the worst designs in the murder of Princes the overturning of Kingdoms and Churches that there is nothing so vile or Monstrous Earthly sensual or devilish but if this pretence be admitted may pass for Inspiration And that consequently 't is not to be rely'd on as proper to conduct any to salvation He declares plainly the necessity of a Guide in this affair And that all those who desire not to miss their way must not only apply themselves with due modesty to the searching the Scriptures but must likewise carefully use the Ministerial Aids of the Christian Church And the reason why so many are given over to Strong Delusions and to believe a Lye He says p. 7. is because out of Pride or Wantonness they forsake the Guides of Gods appointment The like application to Church Guides or Ministerial Helps is required by the Author of the Discourse concerning a Guide in matters of Faith p. 38. as likewise by the late Discourse Concerning a Judge of Controversies So that you see These Protestant Divines are not for encouraging the Enthusiasms of every mans Private Interpretation of Scripture No they are for a just deference to Authority and the use of Guides Represent I confess some of them to keep up the Face of a Church do Speculatively contend for Authority and Guides but then in Fact they again defeat all these their Pretensions whilst they own no Authority to be so Great or Safe with them but 't is to be subjected to the control of every Private Examiner and so to be follow'd or not follow'd as every man in his own Private Capacity shall think fit So that the Vltimate Appeal with them is not to Authority but to the Private Spirit They maintain the
others Invisibly profess'd others travel a great way to find it and return back with a May be and it may be 't was under the Rubbish And what if one should here enforce the Argument in The Plain Mans Reply He 's upon Enquiry Who is the Infallible Judge asserted by Catholics and because he don't find Authors agree upon the Point Where he shall find him p. 18. 25. he there concludes them all to be but Triflers and that there 's no such Judge in the World. Would not this conclude as forcibly that there was no Protestant Church in the World before Luther Since being now upon the Search to what Church or Communion one was to have applyed himself in K. Henry the Seventh's time to have been instructed in the True Faith and Doctrine of Christ they generally agree there was such a Church in the World but some send us to Armenia for it some to Greece some to the Hussites some to an Invisible Corner some to a Cloud some to look under the Rubbish What can a Man call this but in the Plain Man's phrase Trifling And yet Plain as he is he stands fair for this same Title of Honour he has so bountifully bestow'd upon others For as others so He tells us p. 10. that True Religion shall never be so far driven out of the World but that it shall always have somewhere or other some that believe and profess it in all things necessary to Salvation I enquire Where these were twenty years before the Pretended Reformation He assures me They were certainly in the World some where or other Great satisfaction to an Enquirer Is not this just as if I were travelling to a certain Town as as 't is in the Plain Mans Reply p. 19. and do ask the next Man I meet which is the right way He tells me 't is a very Cross-Road to find and I may easily miss it But saith he tho' I cannot direct you my self yet there is a Man lives in that Village who knows every step so exactly that if you take him for your Guide you cannot possibly be mistaken Pray say I at what House do's this Honest Man live How may I come to the speech of him Nay saith he I know nothing of all that but you must find him as you can Now suppose every Man in the Village gives me the same wise Answer What an admirable Direction would this prove Is this any thing but Trifling This is just our Case I am enquiring to find out the True Protestant Church before Luther All assure me 't was certainly in the World but when I come to ask Where the Plain Man's Reply is Some where or other Misrepr Tho' they don't agree where 't was just before Luther Yet all agree 't was generally profess'd by the Primitive Christians Represent Then I see we must despair of finding it the thousand Years before Luther And what was the Primitive Church we 'l enquire in our next Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XI An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor For the satisfaction of those who desire to know whether the Protestant Religion was generally Professed amongst the Christians of those Purer times Represent WE are now to enquire into the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church and see whether that was Protestant or Catholic But we must first know how many Years or Ages you 'l allow us to look into that is how long you say the True Pretestant Religion as now establish'd was profess'd and practis'd Anciently and Generally among Christians after the Apostles days before corruption crept in upon it Setle this Point and then we 'll proceed Misrepresent If you are in good earnest He give you some account of this The Author of the Discourse Concerning a Judge of Controversie lately publish'd says p. 15. For Authority We appeal to the best Authority of the Christian Church the Three First Ages after the Apostles So that I presume by him the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally profess'd and practis'd to the year of Christ 400. Calvin Reynolds and Fulk own the Church of Rome to have continu'd in the Doctrine of the Apostles that is Protestant in the time of Cyprian Jerom Austin the last of whom liv'd till the year 430. Agen in the Discourse entitled Papists not Mis-represented by Protestants 'tis said p. 56. The Tradition of the Church remain'd Clear and Strong till after the First Four General Councils the last of which being that of Chalcedon establish'd in England by Act of Parliament An. 1 Eliz. was held in the Year 450. So that I may allow you to search into the Primitive Church for the first four hundred and fifty years for so long I question not the Protestant Religion was Generally profess'd and practis'd and that Religion as then practis'd is the same as now establish'd by Law here in England and 't is a shame You and Yours shou'd so declaim against it Represent Pardon me here for I profess my self to have so great a veneration for the Primitive Church that I resolve to believe as that believ'd and if it appears that That Church was the Protestant Church I le e'en be Protestant to morrow But let us go on upon our Enquiry You say you have reason to believe the Protestant Religion was Generally profess'd in the Primitive Times for the First Four hundred and fifty years For your satisfaction and mine we 'll take a view of the Christian Religion as then profess'd And that we may proceed with more security and certainty we 'll not descend at present so low as you allow but look at it as 't was practis'd in the time of Constantine the Great who died about the year 337. I make choice of this time because This was the First 〈◊〉 that gave liberty for the Publick Profession of Christianity and establish'd it by Law. 'T was under him all those Pious Learned and Holy Men first appear'd wâ—o till then had been confin'd by cruel Persâ—câ—â—ors to Caves Rocks and Wildernesses 'T was under him the First General Council of Niâ—e was held which we all venerate and whose Creed we all recite and assent to as Apostolical Misrepresent I approve the circumstances For if ever Christianity was Pure and Vncorrupt it must certainly be then when it first shew'd it self to the world and rais'd up its Head from under Perfecution And now you put me in mind of it Dr. Swadlin in his Answer to the 36 Questions reckons This Emperor Constantine the Great for one of the Fathers or Professors of the Proteâ—tant Relition in old times Answ 11. So that I have no exceptions against Him. But who shall give us the account of the Religion then Profess'd Represent Ee'n the Fathers or Professors that then liv'd
but chiefly Eusebius Caesariensis an Historian of that Age and who is listed by Dr. Swadlin in the same place for another Professor of the Protestant Religion Besides we 'll see what account some Modern Protestant Historians give of the Religion of those times Misrepresent Very fairly propos'd See you hold on so to the end and He hear you with patience for I am of the same mind with your Lay-friend and He tell it you freely I have vow'd to follow Truth and Charity where-ever they lead me Represent This is some encouragement if your heart keep pace with your words But lâ—t's enter upon our view First I find Constantine erected a magnificent Church in memory of the Apostles He preâ—ared himself a Sepulchre in it to the end that after death he might be esteemed woâ—th of the prayers which should be performed there in honour of the Apostles He consecrated a Church to the Apostles believing that their memory would be useful and advantâ—gioâ—s to his Soul. Euseb de vit Coast l. 4. c. 60. 2. When he march'd with his Army he carried with him a portable Tabernacle with Priests and Deacons attending it for the celebration of the Divine Mystertes So Zozomenus hist l. 1. c. 8. vers fin 3. He had Lights burning in the Church in the day time so the Centurists Cent 4. 410. relate it out of Eusebius 4. He Translated to Constantinople the Holy Relicks of St. Andrew Luke and Timothy at which the Devils roar'd as 't is worded by St. Jerome who gives the whole Narration of it cont Vigilant Bullinger likewise mentions it de Orig. error 5. He translated to Constantinople for the preservation of that City certain Relicks of the Cross found near Jerusalem by his Mother Helen Centurists Cent. 4. Col. 1529. Being fully perswaded that That City would be perfectly secure wherein such a Relick as this was preserv'd As Socrates relates it Eccles Hist l. 1. c. 17. 6. Under him Pilgrimages were made to Jerusalem the Empress Helen his Mother went thither to Worship as the Centurists have it Cent. 4. col 457. And Eusebius relates how Alexander who liv'd an hundred years before Constantine went in pilgrimage to Jerusalem upon account both of praying there and also of seeing the places Euseb Hist l. 6. c. 11. 7. In his time 't was decreed in a Council held at Arles that Priests might not marry Centurists Cent. 4. Col. 704. 8. He had in great Veneration Sacred Virgins professing perpetual Chastity Euseb de vit Const l. 4. c. 28. And Socrates says that Helen found at Jerusalem Holy Virgins Consecrated to God whom She so highly honour'd that She her self waited upon them and brought them Meat to the Tables at the Entertainment to which She had invited them Ec. Hist l. 1. c. 17. 9. Vnder him were Monks throughout Syria Palestine and Bithynia and other places of Asia in the Dominion of Constantin So the Centurists Cent. 4. Col. 1294. They say likewise he most greatly Reverenc'd Anthony the Monk who lived in the Deserts of Aegypt Cent. 4. Col. 470. Zozom hist l. 1. c. 13. Socrat. Eccles Hist l. 1. c. 21. 10. He restrain'd himself from all Licenousness and Luxury by macerating himself with fastings and bodily austerities Eus de vit Const l. 2. c. 14. 11. He visited and embraced the Sepulcher of Peter and Paul and laying aside his Imperial State he became a Petitioner to the Saints that they would become Intercessors to God for him St. Chrysost in ep 2. Cor. Hom. 26. 12. He Sign'd his Fore-head with the Sign of the Cross Euseb in vit Const l. 3. c. 2. He honour'd the same Sign Eus in laud. Const He had success of Victory in vertue of it and erected it publickly Euseb de vit Const l. 2. c. 7. l. 1. c. 25. 13. He sate not down at the Council of Nice till such time as the Bishops had beckoned to him Euseb ib. l. 3. c. 10. 14. He judg'd it unlawful for him to undertake the Judgment of Ecclesiastical Causes but commited them over to be decided by Bishops Zozom hist l. 1. c. 16. 15. He procur'd the Synod at Arles where the Petition of the Council to Pope Sylvester was that for the Vniform Observation of Easter day throughout the world He would send forth his Letters to all according to antient Custom Osiand in Epit. c. cent 4. p. 182. 16. He subjected all Christian Churches to the Pope insomuch that Mr. Napper in his Treatise upon the Revelations dedicated to King James I. says After the Year of God Three Hundred the Emperor Constantine subdued all Christian Churches to Pope Sylvester from which time till these our days the Pope and his Clergy has possess'd the outward and Visible Church And ib. P. 43. The Popes Kingdom says he has had power over all Christians from the time of Pope Sylvester and â—he Emperor Constantine for these Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Years And ib. p. 145. From the time of Constantine until these our days even One Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Years the Pope and his Clergy has possess'd the outward visible Church of Christians Agen ib. p. 68. Between the year of Christ Three Hundred and Three Hundred and Sixteen the Antichristian and Papistical Râ—â—gn began reigning universally and without any debatable contradiction One Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Years God's True Church most certainly abiding so long Latent and Invisible Nay he goes yet further ib. p. 391. During even the Second and Third Ages says he after Christ the true Temple of God and Light of the Gospel was obscur'd by the Roman Antichrist himself 17. He attributed Primacy to the Bishop of Rome as Frigevillaeus Gauuius owns Pal. Chr. ad Regin Angliae Constantine preferr'd says he the Bishop of Rome and of Constantinople before the rest giving the Primacy to the Bishop of Rome before all And upon this score he is charg'd by the same Author p. 34. fatalâ—y to have given Power to the Beast 18. He reprov'd Acesius the Novatian for denying the Power of remitting sin to be given to Priests Centurists Cent. 4. Col 653. and Socrates l. 1. c. 10. 19. Of his Priests assembled to the Dedication of the Church some of them did Preach and interpret the Holy Scriptures But such as were unable to arrive at these things appeased the Deity with unbloody Sacrifices and Mystick Immolations humbâ—y offering up their Prayers to God for the common peace for the Church of God. So Euseb de vit Const l. 4. c. 45. 20. After his death Prayers were offer'd for his Soul So the Centuriators Cent. 4. Col. 454. where they relate that after his death the People pour'd forth Prayers for the Emperors Soul not without Tears So likewise Eusebius who adds that his Body was vouchsafed a Place with the Monument of the Apostles that it might be vouchsafed the Divine Rites and Mystie Service or Sacrifice de vit Const. l. 4. c. 71.
And what think you now Misrepresenter tell me your Opinion was the Protestant Religion Anciently and Generally profess'd and practis'd in these Primitive Times when Constantine govern'd both the Western and Eastern World Do's the Church in his time practising as you have now seen acknowledg'd by unquestionable Authorities look like a Protestant Church If you know what 't is to be a Protestant tell me your mind Was Constantine and his Church Protestants or no Misrepresent You have hunted out for all the Superstâ—tions Errors and Oversights of that Age and now ask Whether the Professors were Protestants And I answer you They were Protestants as to the Doctrine of the Gospel and Creed which they profess'd tho' not as to their Oversights and Errors Represent That is to say in plain English They were Protestants as the Papists now are Protestants Any honest man by your appeal to and Pretext of Reformation according to the Primitive Times would have expected to have found a Protestant Religion profess'd and practis'd in those times as 't is now here in this Nation by Law establish'd And yet when we have taken a Prospect of those Primiâ—ive Ages we find the Christians then living Professors of no other Protestancy than such as is seen practis'd at this day in their Majesties Chappels at White-Hall Somerset house and St. James's and that I think is a Protestancy which is call'd Popery Misrepresent Why in our Reformation we are no more oblig'd to take in the Errors of Constantine 's time than those Corruptions we found in the time of Henry 8. No we Reform according to the Purity of the Gospel and have no other Rule than that of the Word of God Instructing and Directing us And as for all Superstitions they are alike rejected by us tho' some have Antiquity to plead in their behalf Represent Then I see however you pretend your Reformation has reduc'd Christianity to that state as 't was profess'd in the Primitive Times Yet when we come to look into those times thinking to find a Flourishing Uncontrol'd Protestancy Generally and Publickly Profess'd we are still as far to seek for 't as before and all that appears is the Doctrine of the Creed and Gospel profess'd but together with what you call the Errors and Superstitions of Popery so that to be a Protestant according to the Primitive Times is nothing else but to be a Papist Certainly this must be a very surprising disappointment to some to find Constantine the Great and Eusebius his Historian to be such kind of Popish Protestants as these who yet are set down by your Dr. Swadlin as the Ancient Protestants according to whose Faith and Practice the present Reformation was regulated and against whose Positions says he Ans 11. if we hold any thing name it we answer it prove it we yield So that let me tell you By what I can see as yet when a man has taken the pains to look back to those Primitive Ages he can be no more satisfied where the Protestant Religion as 't is now Reform'd was in the time of Constantine than when Luther began the Reformation but after all his search he must rest contented either with the Plain Mans Reply of its being Home where or other or else with the same It may be as was given to the Parishioner It may be 't was in the Greek in the Abassin and Egyptian Churches amongst the Armenian Christians It may be 't was in a Corner under a Cloud cover'd with Rubbish What if we say 't was no where Famil Discourse betwixt a Minister and Parishioner p. 14. ADVERTISEMENT THis is to give notice That this last Week were sound here in London several Good Protestant Lies concerning Flying Crabs seen in the Chappel at Somerset-house and of the Parish Church of St. James's in the Fields being undermin'd by the Papists and in danger of being demolished by Fire-Balls If the Right Owners will appear they shall be restor'd to them without Cost or Charges and if any will produce them they shall be well rewarded for their Pains Publish'd with Allowance Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel MDC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XII Protestant Historians shew us Popery in the Primitive Church under Constantine but no Protestancy The Christians of that Age never Protested against the Popish Doctrines professedly Taught and Practis'd in those times Therefore they were no Protestants An Enquiry into the Religion of the Ages succeeding Constantine Represent IF you remember at our last meeting Misrepresenter we were looking back into the Primitive Times to see if we could find there the Protestant Religion as 't is now reform'd Generally Profess'd and Practis'd amongst the Christians of that Purer Age. But we lost our labour and all the Hopes You came big with ended in nothing but a disappointment Misrepresent 'T would be a Miracle indeed to find it as long as you have the carrying and management of the Light by which we are to make the Discovery Represent A short memory makes you Unreasonable Have you forgot so soon the very Means and Method by which we enter'd upon our Search were of your own Choice at least by approbation and consent Our business was to make enquiry after the Protestant Religion We agreed to examine the Religion Practis'd in Constantine's time who as your Dr. Swadlin says was a Protestant and in whose time according to your Divines the Protestant Religion was generally profess'd We took an account of the Religion of that Age from Eusebius a Protestant Professor too if you credit Dr. Swadlin and some other Modern Protestants The Translation of Eusebias we made use of was done by a Protestant approv'd and publish'd by Protestants and Printed at Cambridge Anno 1683. a Protestant Vniversity what possibly could be fairer done and more to your advantage And yet after all instead of meeting in those times with the Protestant Religion as now Reform'd we were got in the middle of Good Catholics Professing and Practising their Religion receiv'd from the Apostles pure as yet and uncorrupted as your Fulk and Calvin confess and such as you under the specious Pretext of Reformation have since made Odious and Criminal and done your best to hiss it out of the world Misrepresent The Reformers have preserv'd the Religion of those times Inviolable and have only labour'd to purge Christianity of the Errors then or since that time brought in to deform it Represent This is the proper Mark of the Beast Never a Reformer yet even from Arius to this Day but what has set up his Standard against Pretended Errors and Innovations And this is the stamp they set upon every thing that does not sute with their Humour Fancy or Interest The Reformers of the Reformation go by the same Rule and such as Reform agen upon those that Reform the Reformation still pursue this Method till at last they have
Reform'd away one after t'other all that belongs to Christianity Some reform'd away the greatest part of the holy Ceremonies and Religious Decency observ'd in Churches comes another sort and reform away what These left after them comes a Third and Reform away even the Churches themselves Some made a Reform of the Priestly Vestments retaining the Name of Copes and Miters with the Vse only of a Surplice the next reform the Surplice and the Third reform the Priests and Ministers themselves all out of doors Some began to reform the Sacraments and all were Superstitious but Two others came and thought these Two as Superstitious as the other Five and at last they have reform'd amongst them Religion so far till the only Christianity that is left without Error Corruption or Innovation is that which tho Protestancy still is without ever a Christian in it Misrepresent Certainly you have forgot what you were about and instead of looking for the Protestant Religion you have taken a leap from Constantine down into all the Enthusiasms of our Age. Represent No no We shall soon be back agen I have only given you a hint what 't is you call purging Christianity of Errors and Innovations and what edifying work it makes And by this we shall find there was no Protestant Religion Generally Practis'd and Profess'd amongst Christians in those days of Constantine of which we have lately taken a Survey Misrepresent How so Represent Because if the Protestant Religion had been at that time generally profess'd the Protestants then would have as zealously Protested against what you call the Errors and Innovations in Constantine's time as they did twelve hundred years after in the Reign of King Henry 8. Misrepresent Make that out Represent You know 't is the very Essence of Protestants to Protest against those Doctrines and Practices which they condemn as the Errors and Superstitions of Popery But such Doctrines and Practices there were in Constantine's time as Eusebius and other Historians declare and you your selves own Therefore if the Protestant Religion had been at that time genenerally profess'd they would have Generally Protested against those Doctrines and Practices But there was no General Protestation against those Doctrines and Practices by the Christians in Constantine's time Therefore the Christians in Constantine's time were not Generally Protestants Misrepresent Methinks this gingles something like a Syllogism Represent 'T is to that Tune and I think convincing enough to any serious Considerer that is acquainted with the Spirit of Protestantism Come I dare appeal to your judgment tho' so perversly byass'd for the Case is clear Don't you observe the Protestants that have been in the world ever since Luther's Pretended Reformation have not only Ridicul'd and Condemn'd what they call Romish Errors in the time of Henry 8. but likewise condemn the same practis'd as they own heretofore in the time of Constantine And here I ask of you Don't you think if Luther and his Fellow-Reformers had hapned in Constantine's time they would as certainly have Reform'd the Christian Religion of Constantine as they did afterwards of Hen. 8. Their loud Protesting against and condemning the Pretended Errors of both the One and the Others Religion is a sufficient intimation what they would have done had the Sins of Christendom so early provok'd the Divine Vergeance and brought them before into the World. Since therefore 't is evident it cannot be made appear That the Christians in Constantine's time did Protest against any such pretended Errors as the Protestants have done ever since Luther 't is evident there were no such Christians in those times as Protestants And however Dr. Swadlin confidently derives the Succession of the Protestant Religion not from the Waldenses Wicklifists and Hussits but from Constantine Eusebius c. You have now seen the One Practising the Other relating such Doctrines as are by Protestants now marked out for Superstitious without the lest guilt of Conscience or making any the least Protestation against them and what kind of Protestants these must have been who were thus deep in Popery I leave you to consider Only one thing still I le propose to you We have made hitherto some enquiry into the Christianity of those Former Times and look'd back upon those Christians Now suppose it had been your Fate to have been in those times just Protestant as you are at this day Had you gone into their Churches and seen there the lighted Candles the appeasing the Deity with Vnbloody Sacrifices and Mystic Consecrations Had you seen the Awful Translation of Holy Relicks Constantine prostrate at the Sepulcher of the Apostles and imploring their Intercession had you seen him signing his Forehead with the Cross and with great veneration repositing part of the Holy Cross for the security of the City Had you seen him Fasting and chastising his Body honouring Monks and Virgins by Vow consecrated to God Attributing Primacy to the Bishop of Rome and Subjecting all Christian Churches to him Had you seen the Body of the Deceas'd Emperor in the Church upon a stately Throne with the Priests and numerous Crouds in Tears and Sighs praying for his Soul Had you seen I say in those days the Christians serving God and publickly exercising their Religion in this manner would you have thought them Protestants Would this have agreed with the Notion of Protestantism you have now in your Head Or tell me seriously should you not have run out of their Churches and heartily Protested against them as Rank Papists And yet these are the Christians your Divines appeal to as the Antient Professors of the Protestant Religion 'T is according to these times they say they have Reform'd Christianity And that the Religion as now establish'd by Law in this Nation is the same as was then Antiently and Generally profess'd and practis'd in those Primitive Times Misrepresent You stand close tied up to Constantine s' time and there make your boasts You know we appeal to the First Five or Six Hundred Years and 't is not reason you shou'd confine the search to so narrow Bounds as the Reign of one Emperour Represent Wee 'll go forward therefore and see what was the Religion of all these Ages and because we cannot learn this better than from the Belief and Doctrine of the Eminent and Learn'd Fathers of of those Times wee 'll see what Information their Works will give us as they are acknowledg'd by the Centurists and other Protestant Historians and Writers The Century-Writers you must know give an Historical account of those Ages and in their Fourth Century dedicated to Q. Elizabeth and affirm'd by Protestants to be an Excellent Work worthy of immortal Memory they charge the Fathers of those Antient and Purer times with the holding the Doctrines as follow viz. with Justification by Works Merit Confession of Sins to a Priest Vnwritten Tradition Invocation of Saints Purgatory with Altars so call'd of Sacrifice offer'd upon them and Consecrated with the Sign of the
Profess'd with as little Control or Contradiction as t is at this Day in Italy or Spain I am sure if you should be told of any Neighbour of yours in this City that in his Devotions desires the Prayers of the Saints in Heaven Prays for the Souls of the Faithful Departed keeps Anniversary Days Signs his Forehead with the Sign of the Cross uses Exercisms Oyl Breathing and other Ceremonies in Baptizing his Children c. you would presently cry out A Papist A Papist And if you Censure such an one for a Papist now how can you perswade me the Primitive Christians were Protestants whom we have found Professing such Doctrines and Practices If it be Popery now to do so how was it Protestantism then Either you must make them Protestants that Teach those things at this Day amongst us or else they were none who Taught and Practis'd them heretofore Come I le ask you one Question Had you liv'd in those Days of the Primitive Church would you have Communicated or joyn'd with those Priests and Numerous People who after the Decease of Constantine were Praying round the Hearse for the Soul of the Emperour as 't is related by Eusebius de Vit. Const lib. 4 cap. 71 If you would not I conclude Those Priests and People were none of Your Church that is no Protestants And yet while you would have stood out then as Recusant I am confident such as at this Day Pray for the Soul of Charles 2. would then have Pray'd for Constantine's had they been then Living And These are such as you call Papists By which my Reason informs me That if â—le be a Christian as Christians were in the Primitive Church I must be no Protestant but a Papist since the Protestants of our Days would no more have joyn'd with the Christians of those Times than they do now with the Papists Misrepres You triumph now as if you had gotâ—a Victory and yet you have hiâ—herto done just nothing All your Proofs end in nothing but some Particular Instances and so I confess you have shewn some Private Doctors some Particular Men to have been acknowledg'd as infected with Popery in those Primitive Times by our Centuriators and other Protestant Divines But what 's all this to the Primitive Church Some Private Doctors and Opiniators might then be Papists 't is true but the Church was nevertheless Protestant Examine the Four First General Councils which were at that Time the Church Representative and you 'l see nothing Decreed by them but what We hold as Protestaâ—ts Repres You are for having me take all upon trust And tho' you cry out against Pinning Faith upon Sleeves yet I see if I don't pin my Faith upon your Sleeve I shall never be Protestant You Preach to me I must be guided by Reason and 't is not enough to Say the Primitive Church was Protestant but you must Prove it too if you 'l convince my Reason For my part by the Progress we have hitherto made I think I have Reason to think that not only some Private Men but that the Whole Church was then Popish as you call it For let us but reflect a little Who were These Men who by your Modern Protestants are accus'd of Popish Doctrines in those Times of Constantine and the Two Following Ages and we shall find they were the most Eminent the mosh Learned the most Exemplar and Best Men of their Times they were S. Augustine S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Athanasius S. Ambrose S. Gregory Nazianzen Nyssen S. Basil S. Hilary S. Cyril S. Paulinus S. Epiphanius c. These were the Men who living in those Primitive Ages of the Church are condemn'd and rejected by Modern Protestants for holding and maintaining Popish Doctrines These are they who are charg'd with Popery by the Centuriators by Osiander Chemnitius Melancthon Bullinger Beza Whitaker Humfrey Covel Whitgift Abbot Morton Fulk Trig Cartwright Field Hooker c. Now I need not ask here being upon Enquiry into the Faith of the Primitive Church whether Those Ancient Fathers cannot in all likelihood better inform me what was the Faith and Doctrine of the Church of their Times than other Modern Teachers who had not a Being in the World till Twelve or Thirteen Hundred Years after But I may consider with my self whether it be not most agreeable to Reason to think since such Eminent and Vertuous Men and Prelates as just now recited are accus'd of Popery that not only some Private Persons in those Primitive Times but that the Whole Church was then Popish I am assur'd by all Antiquity that these Persons that stand thus Indicted Govern'd the Primitive Church were Bishops Pastors and the most Exemplary of their Age the People or Flock were Instructed and Taught by them So that such Doctrines as they then Publish'd in their Writings and Preach'd to the People without Censure or Reproof I cannot look on as a Private or Closet-Concern but as the Public and Receiv'd Doctrine of their Times and that in the Sermons and Works of the Pastors is seen the Belief of the Flock And this will oblige me to conclude that Such Doctrines and Practices of which these Ancient Fathers and Doctors stand charg'd by Moderns was not the Doctrine of Private Men but of the Whole Church of their Times It being not at all probable to think while the Pastors are thus generally condemn'd for Papists that the People should be Protestants I demand of you Whether the Writings and Books of Protestant Prelates Doctors and Divines Publish'd under Edward 6. and Queen Elizabeth be not an Argument that besides shewing their Private Sentiments will prove likewise the Doctrine and Belief of Their Church and that whosoever quarrels with them for their Protestant Negatives and Dissenting from the Church of Rome do's not in the same Breath condemn their Whole Church of which they were Rulers and Overseers If so have not I equal Grounds to believe that the Concurring Sentiments of the Primitive Fathers was the Sense of the Primitive Church and that the accusing them of Popish Doctrines and Principles is a Condemnation of their Whole Church over which God had plac'd them Prelates Pastors and Teachers So that by all my Reason can discover yet if I am to be of the Religion of the Primitive Times I am to be no Protestant but continue as I am a Papist and if I were not so this your Appealing to the Primitive Church and our Search into it would e'en oblige me to renounce Your Communion who only make a Noise of the Primitive Church and are nothing like it but are as much for Reforming that as you did the Church of Henry 8. Misrepres Leave these Private Doctors and Fathers and look but into the First Four General Councils and you 'l soon discover that the Church of those Primitive Christians was nothing else but Protestant Repres I find too much of the Pope in those Councils to think they were Protestants The Pope Presides
in Three of them by his Legates or Deputy They shew great Respect to his Letters and follow his Direction They hear him call'd their Head without Contradiction and call him so Themselves They own him to have the Care of the Vineyard vâ—z the Whole Church committed by Christ to his Charge Now how can I imagine the Bishops there assembled to be Protestants since You and I that know what kind of things Protestants are are very well assar'd that had those Prelates been Protetants instead of these Honourable Titles and Respects they had e'en set upon Him with those Course Protestant Complements of Antichrist Whore of Babylon Vsurper c. with a peremptory Demand of What had he to meddle there with his Legates and 〈◊〉 of Direction in the 〈◊〉 Church whose Diocese like other Bishops was no other but what was over-lookt by the Seven Hills You know if the Centurists Osiander Mr. Cartwright Bibliander Dr. Whitaker Mr. Bale or Mr. Beard had been there they had in such Honourable Phrases Entitled him to Tyranny and Vsurpation as they have since with other of their Brethren done in their Writings But since instead of these Reform'd Complements I find the Pope Treated by those Four First General Councils with all Submission Respect and Veneration how can my Reason be convinc'd that those Bishops and Divines there assembled were Protestants Do you but imagine with your self that Pope Sylvester Damasus Celestine and Leo instead of Directing their Legates and Letters to those First General Councils had sent them to a Synod of Dort of Charenton to such Committees for Religion or Convocations as have been at any time held in these Northern Climates since the time of Lather's Pretended Reformation what Reception do you think they would have had Can you imagine they would have given to the Legates the most Honourable Seats as was done in those Councils Would they be heard to stile the Pope the Successor of Peter and Their Head with that awful Silence as was done there Would the Pope's Orders and Directions be receiv'd with that Submission as was done by those Venerable Synods Misrepres Troth I am apt to believe they would not Repres Then I am apt to believe and have Reason for 't that the Prelates and Divines of those Four First General Councils were nothing like These that have been of late assembled in our National Synods and Convocations that is No Protestants For if your Protestant Religion were really the same Religion as was then Profess'd in the time of those First Councils the Behaviour of those Ancient Prelates had certainly been no other than such as might rationally be expected from our Modern Protestant Synods and Convocations had the same Legates and Letters been Directed from the Pope to them and yet how Vast a difference there is betwixt what Those did heretofore and These would do now were they in the like Circumstances You your self cannot but acknowledge and whilst you own that Those Primitive Bishops of the Ancient and yet Pure Church did behave themselves so unlike Protestants how can I who am to govern my self by Reason conclude them to have been Protestants Come you exact too hard a Task of me if you expect I shall believe that the Primitive Christians were Protestants you must e'en do more than Say so you must shew that those Ancient Doctors did behave themselves in their Pulpits like our Modern Doctors That They did then in their Sermons rail against the Pope and endeavour to prove Him Antichrist That Obeying and Believing the Catholic Church was going Blindfold and Pinning Faith upon Sleeves That Praying to Saints was Idolatry and Praying for the Souls departed an Idle Superstition and a Tricking them to Heaven I have shewn you the same Popish Doctrines Profess'd heretofore as you now find at this day shew me but such Damning Sermons Preach'd against them heretofore and you 'l do something Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XIV No Protestant Harangue in the First Four General Councils to fill the Fathers Heads with Fears and Jealousies No Canons made by the said Fathers to prevent the Growth of Popery at that Time professedly Taught and Practis'd is an Argument that the Fathers of those Councils were no Protestants Representer I Hope you are by this time satisfi'd Misrepresenter that the Professors of such Doctrines and Principles as you call Popish were every where to be found in the Time of the Primitive Church when you say the Protestant Religion was Generally Profess'd amongst Christians Misrepresent I very freely acknowledge That in the Time of the Primitive Church and of the First Four General Councils there were very many Eminent Men thro' Infirmity or Blindness Embracing and Professing Popish Doctrines This I will not be so obstinate as to deny because I find most of the Ancient Fathers of the Church branded with the Mark of Popish Errors by Our own Century-Writers and other Protestant Divines Hierome Ambrose Austin Athanasius Gregory Chrysostome and the rest of them do not escape this Censure They all had their Failings in this Point They câ—ndescended too much to the Infirmity of their Times and in many of their Doctrines knew not what they said or Taught But still the Church was Protestant and the Four First General Councils as I told you before were all Protestants You may claim some Particular Doctors of those Times if you will and welcom but for the Church and Councils these were certainly Ours and their Religion was the same True Protestant Religion as is here by Law Establish'd Repres Well I don't know how far Interest or Passion or Education may work in this Point But I cannot bring my Reason and What you say to meet for my Life and yet I have been trying and turning and stretching it every way since our last Meeting and ' twon't do at last For look you now You say Those First General Councils were Protestants This presently raises a Notion in my Head That all those Bishops and Divines there assembled were like our Protestants here in England and I presently resemble them to our Convocations or Parliaments Here I begin to Imagine what so many Divines of Ours would have done in those Times had they been then in Body I consider that the Times were then very Dangerous Popery as you confess began to spread many Eminent Men were infected with its Errors Then think I Certainly if the Fathers in those Councils had been Protestants there could not have been wanting some Zealous Doctor who would have animated the Fathers to the utter Exâ—irpation of those Errors and with a Fervorous Protestant Harangue have prepar'd them for the Enacting of Laws or Canons to prevent the Growth of Popery and sor the Preservation of the Protestant the most Moderate and best Religion in the World. I cannot 〈◊〉 but there would
Time of the First Four General Councils for Teaching and Believing many Points which are of late rejected sor Superstitions of Popery and Inventions of Men Such as attributing Primacy to the See of Rome Tradition Invocation of Saints Honouring the Relicks of Martyrs Prayer for the Dead the Sacrifice of the Mass Transubstantiation c. These and many other such Doctrines Modern Protestants own to have been Taught by the Fathers of the Primitive Church in the Time of the First Councils And now I ask of you Whether the Prelates there assembled did by Canons or Decrees make any Provision against these Doctrines Misrepres I confess I don't find any Canons they made upon this matter Respres How can I believe then that the Reverend Bishops and Divines of those Councils were Protestants You are not ignorant how ill these Doctrines suit with the Protestant Temper You know They look upon the Intercession of Saints as injurious to the Mediation of Christ and Idolatrous The Pope's Primacy is with them an Antichristian Usurpation Honouring Relicks is Superstitious Praying for the Dead an Idle Devotion The Belief of Transubstantiation Unreasonable The Mass an Evacuating of the Sacrifice of the Cross Now can you perswade me that the Fathers of those First Councils could be Protestants and yet let these Doctrines and Practices so Detestable as they must be in their Opinion pass without any Condemnation and Uncensur'd No certainly The Fathers of those Times were more Zealous than so They were Watchful against all Novel Opinions such as were contrary to the Receiv'd Doctrine of the Church and there were no sooner any started tho' in Parts remote from them but they presently took the Alarm and by Writing Preaching Disputing Synods National and Oecumenical did make a most Vigorous Opposition and withstand them And such as continu'd Obstimate in their Errors with Endeavours of drawing Numbers after them and Disturbing the Peace of the Church seldom or never escap'd without the Mark of Heresie or Schism When I consider this State of the Primitive Church happily Flourishing under the Conduct and Care of so many Eminent Prelates and Pastors no less Zealous in Defending their Charge from the Assaults of Innovators and Vpstart Opinions than in Preserving Them in the Receiv'd Doctrines from the Apostles I cannot imagine how to Condemn them assembled in Full Council of such Gross Stupidity or Inexcusable Connivance as they must of necessity be guilty of in passing over so Considerable an Evil which had then overspread the greatest part of the Church And yet if I am to take Them for Protestants they of necessity fall under these Censures in not Reproving or Condemning those Popish Doctrines which as we are assur'd from Modern Protestants in the Times of those Councils had prevail'd upon such great Numbers of the Christian World. And Therefore since as you confess They made no Provision by Decrees or Canone against those Doctrines I am throughly perswaded They were no Protestants Misrepres Then I le warrant you you take them all for Good Papists Repres I must take 'em for Papists or Nothing For I am confident none but Papists could see so much Popery Taught and Practis'd as We have seen from Eusebius and Others under Constantine and in the Time of the First Four Councils and yet pass it by in Silence without Censure or Reproof Your Friend therefore who tells the World that the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally Profess'd would do well to Explicate to the Curious what kind of Protestancy that was heretofore which did agree so well with So much Popery If he do's not clear this Point well many others I believe besides my self will begin to suspect that the Fathers and Prelates assembled in those First Councils of the Primitive Church were rather Papists than Protestants Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XV. The Appeal of Protestants to the Primitive Fathers shewn Injurious to Protestancy from the Concessions of Protestant Writers Luther the Apostle of the Reformation disclaims the Doctrine of the Fathers as not being for his purpose of Reforming Misrepresenter I HAVE a Scruple this Morning that I have given you too much room to look for the Protestant Religion in the Primitive Times If I had Confin'd your Search within a Narrower compass of years you had discover'd more Protestancy and less Popery Repris I have not taken in more Years than you agreed to nor more than are generally allow'd by Protestants You know 't is the Bulwark of the Pretended Reformers to make their Appeal to the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church They acknowledge their Separation from the Church of Rome as it was in the Time of their Reformation and they justifie themselves for so doing because the Church of Rome as they pretend had faln from the Purity of Doctrine profess'd by the Primitive Church into Gross Errors Superstition and Idolatry And therefore since the Church of Rome would not Reform it self 't was necessary They should Separate from it so to Reform the Abuses and Corruptions that had crept in upon Christianity and bring it back to that State of Purity in which it had been practis'd by their Forefathers of the Primitive Church Misrepres Yes this is the True Reason of the Protestants Separating themselves from the Church of Rome and therefore I don't doubt but the Religion as here Establish'd amongst us by Law is the same as was heretofore Generally profess'd by the Primitive Church But the Question is How many Years the Primitive Church continu'd Pure and Uncorrupt that is Protestant as we are at this Day For I see you have look'd back into some Ages Past which I took for Protestant and there has appear'd then so much Popery publickly Exercis'd and Profess'd that I have some reason to suspect that the Christians of those Times were rather Papists than Protestants and that you have been something insincere in this Point and not made your Enquiry so far back as you ought Repres 'T is your Interest rather to suspect Me than the Weakness of Your own Cause But tell me How many Years did you allow me wherein to search for the Protestant Religion in the Past Ages of the Primitive Church Misrepres I gave you the Compass of the first Five hundred Years after Christ And in this I a am sure there was no Mistake of mine For Our Dr. Morton says Prot. Ap. p. 354. that It has been the Constant Prosession of Protestants to stand to the Judgment of Antiquity for the continuance of the First Four hundred Years and more in all things And ib. 573. be says that Protestants are so far from suffering the limitation of the First 440 Years that they give the Romanists the Scope of the First Five or Six hundred Years Bishop Jewel too our Champion and Apologist makes his Challenge
currant Testimonies of the Ancient Fathers are so certain and evident that many Learned Protestants upon this Consideration refuse to stand the Test of their Authorities thinking it far more advantageous to their Cause to give them a general Disclaim Hence Mr. Whitaker affirms the Popish Religion to be patcht up out of the Fathers Errors Cont. Dur l. 6. p. 423. And Dr. Humfrey most severely reprehends Mr. Jewel for his so bold Appeal to the Primitive Fathers affirming that herein Mr. Jewel gave the Papists too large a scope was injurious to himself and after a manner spoil'd himself and the Church Misrepres So then I see you intend to claim the Fathers not only of Constantine 's Time and the Following Ages as Abettors of Popery but likewise Those who in the First Centuries immediately succeeded the Apostles And what Room then do you leave for Protestancy Repres 'T is not only I that claim Them but even the Protestants themselves you see of the precedent Age such who were not asham'd to speak the Truth make a surrender of them laying aside all Pretensions either to Them or their Doctrine And when they have disown'd all the Fathers one by one from Clement Ignatius Irenaeus who liv'd in the Apostles Days and succeeded them in their Function to S. Jerome Austin Leo Gregory the last of which surviv'd the Fifth Century when they have declar'd that Antichrist began his Reign and obscur'd the Light of the Gospel even from the Time of the Apostles I wonder what Room as you say there 's left for Protestancy It savours something of a Mystery methinks call'd Nonsense to say the Protestant Religion is the same Pure Religion as was Anciently and Generally Profess'd amongst the Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church and then to condemn the same Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church for being infected with Popery and giving way to Antichrist Wherefore to avoid these Inconveniences if you 'l take my Advice Misrepresenter I believe you had better pretend no longer Right to the Primitive Fathers but as you have condemn'd the Eight hundred Years next before the Reformation of Damnable Errors and Popish Superstitions to take one step further back and e'en take in the other Six hundred Years too and so condemn them all in the lump from Christ's Time to Luther for being Papists and Popishly affected Never Mince the matter They were all Men you know and subject to Error and when you are once in 't is as easily condemning your Fore-fathers for Fourteen Ages as for Eight Your First Reforming-Apostles were something of this mind and thought it no more difficulty to Censure and Condemn the Primitive Fathers than Those they found in the time of K. Henry 8. but were for Reforming all with the same Hand Hearken a little to your courageous Luther In the Writings says he of Jerome there is not a word of True Faith in Christ and Sound Religion Tertullian is very Superstitious I have held Origen long since Accursed of Chrysostome I make no account Basil is of no worth he is wholly a Monk I value him not of a Hair Cyprian is a Weak Divine The Apology of Philip Melancthon far excels all the Dostors of the Church and exceeds even Austin himself Coll. Mens c. de Patr. Eccles And in another place The Fathers says he of so many Ages have been plainly Blind and most Ignorant in the Scriptures They err'd all their Life-time and unless they were mended before their Deaths they were neither Saints nor pertaining to God's Church To. 2. l. de Serv. Arbit Peter Martyr is of the same mind and therefore says plainly That as long as we stand to Councils and Fathers we shall always remain infected with the same Errors viz. of Popery And certainly Misrepresenter these Your First Setters up for Reformation were in the Right on 't for nothing can possibly so strengthen Protestancy and justifie the Separation as this Levelling Divinity For your Going by halves and pretending to be of the Religion of the First Ages of the Church fills People with Doubts and Scruples whilst looking back upon the Professors of those Times instead of Protestancy they find so much Popery amongst them Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XVI A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy The Art of Interpreting do's Feats it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity Represent HOW stands your Head to day Misrepresenter have you Consider'd the Proposal I made you at our last Meeting Are you for disclaiming all Title to the Primitive Church and Huffing those Ancient Fathers as Luther Peter Martyr and others did who designing a Through-Reformation were alike for calling those Great Doctors to an account of the First Ages as they did those they found in the Time of King Henry 8 Or are you for Reforming upon These First Reformers and taking in those Primitive Fathers of the Church for Protestants which They cast off and Condemn'd for Papists Misrepres I have Consider'd this Matter very seriously and taken the Advice of Friends upon the Point And therefore to be short with you I value no more the Saying of Luther than he did Those Ancient Fathers whom he condemn'd as Weak Divines Superstitious and Valu'd not of a Hair. He was so near the Times of Darkness that he could not well look back and make Judgment of any thing behind him Repres Nay I commend you in this 't is only just to serve him in his kind 'T was Tertullian's Saying Curâ—â—nm idem licet Marcionitis quod Marcioni If Marcion has rebell'd against the Church why should his Followers think much to rebel against him And since Luther cast off all Authority and valu'd not the Writings and Doctrine of the most Eminent Fathers of the Primitive Church why shou'd any one think much of undervaluing him by his own Example If Luther could so easily throw by S. Cyprian for a Weak Divine and S. Basil for being wholly a Monk is not this Precedent enough for any Follower of Luther to cast him off for an Apostate Friar and an Ambitious Divine Well but if you Reform upon Luther in this Point and don 't think fit with him to lay aside all the Writings of the Ancient Fathers as Erroneous and Superstitious what do you do with all those troublesome Passages in their Works wherein They are such Positive Asserters of Popish Doctrines that 't is impossible for any Man to take the Authors for any thing but Papists which do's not well suit with your Claim to them as Protestants Misrepres Pish I value no more these Difficulties than Luther did the Fathers that is not of a Hair. If the First Reformers bad their Eyes but half open what 's that to us who have the Noon-light of the Gospel shining upon us