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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19164	The attestation of the most excellent, and most illustrious lord, Don Carlos Coloma, embassadour extraordinary for Spayne. Of the declaration made vnto him, by the lay Catholikes of England concerning the authority challenged ouer them, by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon. With The answere of a Catholike lay gentleman, to the iudgment of a deuine, vpon the letter of the lay Catholikes, to the sayd Lord Bishop of Chalcedon.	Coloma, Carlos, 1573-1637.; Baltimore, George Calvert, Baron, 1580?-1632. Answere of a Catholike lay gentleman to the judgement of a devine. aut	1631 (1631)	STC 5576; ESTC S117323	60,660	174

THE ATTESTATION OF THE Most Excellent and Most Illustrious Lord DON CARLOS COLOMA Embassadour Extraordinary for Spayne OF THE DECLARATION made vnto him by the Lay Catholikes of England Concerning the Authority challenged ouer them by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon WITH THE ANSWERE OF A CAtholike Lay Gentleman to the Iudgment of a Deuine vpon the Letter of the Lay Catholikes to the sayd Lord Bishop of Chalcedon Superiorum permissu M. DC XXXI The Approbation of the famous Preacher and Deuine and most ancient amongst the Doctours of Diuinity of Sorbone now liuing SEing the ground of this whole Controuersy among the English Catholiks is therin placed that the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon seemes to challeng more vnto himselfe then is graunted by the faculties giuen him by the Sea Apostolike from whence it comes that out of the diuerse opinions iudgemēts which are with heat framed by many there arise debats in this present tyme both dāgerous and hurtfull To the appeasing quieting whereof no remedy seemes more to the purpose then to make fully knowne to all the true sense and feeling of the Catholikes that his Holynes doe more clearely lay open his mind concerning the faculties graunted to the sayd Right Reuerend Lord Bishop To both which this present Declaration of the English Catholikes is most necessary therfore I iudge it worthy to be published in print that it may be perused of all Dated at Tornay the 29. of April 1631. Iohn Boucher Sorbone Doctour in Diuinity Chanon and Archdeacon in Tornay and Censor of Bookes THE DECLARATION OF THE Lay Catholikes of England concerning the Authority challenged ouer them by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of CHALCEDON WEE Lay Catholickes of the realme of England haue vnderstood from sundry parts of the Christian world that a foule aspersion is cast vpon our honour reputation for that we are iudged to frame a lesse reuerēd conceit of Episcopal Authothority and iurisdiction and not to render it that Obediecne which may be thought fit The only cause of this is taken from thence that we refuse to submit our selues to that power Authority which the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon hath long since pretended as due vnto his place and to the which as we are assured vpon strong motiues he still layeth clayme taking it as graunted him from the Sea Apostolike This pretended Authority of his hath byn maintayned by sundry Treatises as well written as printed which warrant his Ordinariship and assure him of as much power as is granted to other Ordinaries in what Catholike Diocesse soeuer and warne vs that the same Obedience is to be performed towards him on our part Moreouer we are told that hitherto we were not a Church as long as we wanted a particular Bishop but a flocke without a Pastor an Army without a Generall a Ship without a Pilot a spirituall kingdome without a spirituall king a family without the good mā of the house in a word no true or perfect Christians And although as soone as we had returned an answere to a Letter sent vs from my Lord Bishop presently diuers scandalous wrytings which his Lordship neuer sought to suppresse nor seemed to dislike of were spread abroad and we therin traduced with no small disparagement to our reputation and preiudice to our cause especially in the opinion of the vnlearned yet we chose rather to forgoe our proper and priuate interest then by standing out with vehemency for our owne right eyther affoard vnto others a subiect of scandall or giue way to the daunger of an ensuing Schisme Wherfore in silence we left the decyding of this matter to those who by their Highest power in the Church of God were as well his Lordships as our Superiours But seeing there haue not wanted many both at home and abroad who in a matter nothing belonging to them and who could not so much as pretend any Authority ouer vs haue notwithstanding vsurped the freedome of giuing iudgment in our cause with great domage to our fame and honour which we endeare aboue our liues we haue thought good to declare and auouch entierly and faithfully before God and man these ensuing points First we sincerely belie●e professe that Episcopall Authority in the Catholick Church was ordained by God and as it beseemeth good Catholickes we honour it with all reuerence and daily beg with our best wishes that the diuyne Goodnes will once be pleased to send a tyme in which that authority which is truly giuen and which we account full necessary in the Catholick Church may safely be established amongst vs and we without increase of persecution acknowledge it and as humbly submit our selues vnto it as they do who liue in coūtries not liable to lawes enacted against Religion of which kind very many and those seuere and capitall be heere with vs in force Which fauour if we could but obteyne of his diuine Maiesty truly we should esteeme our selues thrice-happy Furthermore we declare openly that for as much as belongeth to the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon we honour and reuerence him in all duty take him to be a true Catholick Bishop sent hither by the sea Apostolick to administer the Sacrament of Confirmation as we thinke to gouerne that part of the Clergy which is cōmitted to his charge but not to be our Ordinary either after an ordinary or extraordinary māner because we in no case belieue that any such thing hath bin hitherto declared by the sea Apostolicke seeing that the tymes into which we are fallen do no wayes permit vs to obey such Authority without endangering the losse of our goods such a losse as cannot be recouered Neither do we only thinke that the Sea Apostolick hath not as yet bestowed any such office power or authority vpon the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon but moreouer we rest assured that it is not the intentiō of his Holines to grant it him herafter vntil those times returne which may promise that this power will rather serue to support Religion then to ouerthrow it and vntill it may be lawfull for vs to imbrace it freely without so many so great difficulties and dangers which as things now stand is altogeather impossible for sundry and weighty Reasons alledged by vs in the Letter aformētioned in the beginning of this cōtrouersy to my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon which for that the Reader should not peraduēture light on or we be inforced often to repeate the same thing we thought good to set downe in this place a Copy thereof togeather with a certayne Declaration made and presented to my Lord de Chasteau-neuf his Excellency at that tyme the most Christian Kings Embassadour Extraordinary in Englād before whome many Catholicks some of chiefe dignity esteeme amongst vs acknowledged the same for their owne So as the iudicious and vnpartiall Reader will easily perceaue the state of our cause which was the thing

recede c. But the Deuine had an eye in this to his conueniēcy reseruing this poynt for the last therin to shew his Diuinity which he hath hitherto made litle shew of and so now he commeth to that which followeth 6. Their 6. point of Temerity sayth the Deuine is in their words neyther can we be persuaded that there is a necessity of conforming our selues therunto Episcopall power obserue these two words of the Deuines owne putting in by the parenthesis and by way of glosse as to a matter of fayth or yet that we can be obliged to loose our state and ruine our posterityes where the necessity of profession of Fayth doth not oblige vs. Vpon which words the Deuine descanteth asking what is this but to get vp into the Bishops chayre and teach him how far they are obliged where he sayth that as long as they taught what was common law they were to be heard but that where they come to teach the duty of a Christian they passe the duty of a Christian And then he teacheth that it is a matter of Fayth that there ought to be Episcopall power in Gods Church and that the Pastors are to be obeyed and that although particulars be not matter of fayth yet men are bound out of the vertue of Religion to hould them so where there is no cause of doubt For sayth he it sufficeth that they are obliged to obey theyr lawfull Pastour and that they haue no reasonable cause to doubt but that the Bishop of Clalcedon is such to them and so concludeth that they erre exceedingly if they thinke that they are not bound to conforme themselues to any thing but matters of fayth for that they are bound to conforme their willes to matters of religion obedience or other vertues cōmaunded by God his Church as they do their vnderstanding to matter of faith Thus the Deuine discourseth more it seemeth to shew his Diuinity then to speake to the purpose for what needed al this whereof there is no question as that it is the institution of Christ that there should be Episcopall Authority in the Church that lawfull Pastors are to be obayed that men are no lesse boūd to the practise of other vertues then the profession of fayth Who denieth all this Or what was there in the Letter that being rightly taken might enforce any such discourse The Catholickes meaning therfore is playne that the acknowleging or obaying such Authority as my Lord Bishop now pretēdeth heere in Englād as things stād is not a matter of necessity to the profession of the Catholike fayth or exercise of any other vertue necessary for a good Christian But that they may be good Catholickes without it as they haue approued themselues before God the world these 60. yeares which if it had been necessary the Sea Apostolike would neuer haue suffered them to want a Bishop so long This was the thing the Deuine should haue touched without going about the bush now what Temerity is it for any lay man in the world to say this Or wherin doth he take vpon him more thē he should How doth he teach the Bishop or by saying this how doth he passe the duty of a good Christiā What crime is it for a man now in time of heresy persecution where the profession and exercise of the Catholique fayth is dangerous to his life and fortune when he shall be vrged by my Lord Bishop to further exercise or profession therof then is necessary to make answere that he thinketh he cannot be bound vnto it Will this Deuine in good company and before learned men say he can No no hee will be better aduised whatsoeuer he writeth Nay this thing is so playne and so necessarily included in the Common practise of the Catholique fayth all this tyme of persecution as I wonder this Deuine should thinke it such a matter for a lay mā to speake so much Diuinity He need not for his will be neuer the lesse though all the world know it And on the other side Catholiques haue beene so beaten to it that there is no man can but know it For what hath made them stand out against the oath of Supremacy going to Church the oath of allegiāce c. but the necessary connexiō that these things of their owne nature haue with the profession of their faith which were it not all Catholiques in England know they could not by any humane constitution be bound not to cōforme themselues to our lawes in this behalfe the dangers being such as they are Now they see that the hauing of a Bishop at this time with such Authority as is pretended is not of such necessity on the one side as these things and on the other side of no lesse danger and therfore they thinke they cannot be bound to it Is this such a deep point of Diuinity as a Lay man may not presume to know it Or if he know not speake Or if he speake of it he must be sayd to get vp into the Bishops Chayre Who would thinke a Deuine would trifle thus But let vs see more he enlargeth himselfe in this as being in his iudgement a substantiall poynt of temerity making another Paragraph of it But before I haue done with this I cannot omit to note the Deuines Parenthesis in the beginning of this 6. Paragraph where to the words of the Letter which say Neither can we be perswaded that there is a necessity of conforming our selues heerunto which they meane playnely of an Episcopall Tribunall as things stand This Deuine with his parenthesis of Episcopall power maketh as though Catholiques deny conformity to Episcopall power in generall which is a strange slight I may say plaine corruption But to goe on with him he goeth forward thus Like to this is that other great errour of theirs where they say they cannot be obliged to loose their estates ruine their posterityes where the necessity of profession of fayth doth not oblige them For saith he they are aswel obliged to loose their estates nay liues also where the exercising of any necessary Vertue doth oblige them as where the profession of fayth doth For example he bringeth Ioseph the Patriarch who was obliged to loose his estate and liberty as well when the necessity of Chastity did bind him as necessity of professing his fayth So he sayth Christians were no lesse bound to obay the decrees of the Apostles thē belieue their doctrine And he brings the Authority of S. Thomas to proue that he suffereth as a Christian whosoeuer suffereth for doing any good or auoyding any euill saying withall of himself that to loose their liues for acknowledging their lawfull Pastor is to loose it for profession of their fayth So the Church holdeth them for Martyrs who would rather dy then subscribe to the condemnation of S. Athanasius c. To this I answere that the Deuine is very free to call this an errour which by answering what he sayth

of totall restitution of the Catholique fayth when Almighty God shall please the Sea Apostolique dealeth most prudently sending men hither with so much power as is necessary and expedient for Catholiques at this tyme reseruing the fullnesse of Ordinary Episcopall power till the full restitution of Catholike Religion in this Kingdome For so Catholiques are well assured that his Lordship is not Ordinary howsoeuer the Deuine cry nothing but Pastour and lawfull Pastour at euery word But men giue him the hearing only they cannot but woūnder that he should so brauely carry out the matter as if there were no Declaration or order to the contrary when he cannot but know that my Lord Bishop hath had more orders thē one to that purpose Nay that my Lord Bishop hath acknowledged the receipt of them else where though heere he do not and hath promised to cease from further stirring though we do not yet see the performance of it vnlesse it be that his Lordship indeed forbeare but that his Officers wil not be obedient to him in that wherin they may soone do his Lordship much wrong For their faults wil be imputed to him Now because this Deuine sayth Episcopall power hath beene euer obserued in the Church in all times of persecution whatsoeuer inferring thereupon that here now in England there ought to be a Bishop I would wish him to consider whether euen in the primitiue Church the persecution were like ours in some respects for though it were more bloudy● and the tormēts more various and cruel yet it was but by fits and generally the Christians had their Cripts placed vnder ground and howses dedicated to that vse wherein they had a publike kind of exercise of their faith euen by publike allowance and Priests and Clergy men were distinguished by their habit tonsure or shauing of their crowne as it is vsed now generally in the Catholique Church But our case is farre different for heere we haue much ado to heare Masse in a corner as priuate as may be without discouery how much lesse might we haue those other things which belong to the Authority of an Ordinary But of this againe in another place These things considered since none of these spiritual cōmodities which this Deuine speaketh off are necessarily cōnected with the Authority of Ordinary neither are so necessary but that a man may be a good Christian and Catholique without them they cannot be the true motiue of pursuing the matter with such violence and heate to the greater scandall and harme of the Catholique cause then all the Authority my Lord Bishop would haue or this Deuine haue for him wil do good and therefore men are induced to thinke that the true motiue is Ambition desire of Rule interest in the fortunes of Lay men disposing of Legacies in maius bonum as would be pretended iudgemēt of controuersies betweene party party without their consents and by little and little to draw into practise a vexation by the seuerall tribunals vpon Catholiques This I will not say but surely there be great presumptions for it for if their reasons were good they would carry things with more tēper they would with a litle more patience endure to heare men propound their reasons to the cōtrary they would quietly expect the determination of the Sea Apostolique and obey it when it commeth besids that in their very discourses they cānot but bewray somwhat of their minds concerning Legacies monyes for pious vses But I will say no more of it but passe to another Section SECT IIII. That the Temporall daungers are not meerly pretended THE Deuine in his 4. Section laboureth by many reasons to proue that the tēporall Daungers are but pretended which is but euen the same that he said in the former Section in other words For though he sayth in the title that their motiues were worldly yet in his discourse he sayth that those were not their true motiues but their passionatenesse to Regulars and so he sayth heere yet I must yield to follow him though he saith but the same things ouer againe His first reason to proue the daungers to be only pretended is because they neuer mentioned those daungers till approbation was moued to Regulars which was about Easter 1627. whereas Episcopal Authority had beene restored since the yeare 1623. I answere first that wheras he sayth that Episcopall Authority was restored I see not how that can be said to be restored which neuer was for when was there euer a Bishop of Chalcedon in Englād with power of Ordinary in England before this mans predecessour Secondly Catholiques did little dreame at first of any such Authority as my Lord Bishop challengeth For the forraine title of Chalcedon gaue thē some assurance that he was not to be a Bishop like as in former Catholique tymes And though they heard somtymes of the word Ordinary amōg some of my Lords Clergy yet they made no great matter of it not knowing any great ground Notwithstanding they were desirous to know what Authority the Bishop had and for that cause vsed all the meanes they could to see his Letters or Faculties but they could not get a sight of them which made them begin to suspect somwhat and so they began to be a litle more carefull then before especially hearing of diuers things done by my Lord of Chalcedons officers as Excommunicating of some and threatning others as also comming to see the Letters Patents wherby his Lordship did create his Archdeacons true and lawfull Rulers and Ecclesiasticall Superiours of the Laity which when they saw they began to cōsult among themselues what was fit to be done And all this was before that euer my Lord of Chalcedon moued any thing about Approbation of Regulars And without question they would haue done what they did for their owne security though the matter of Approbation had neuer beene moued to Regulars It may be when they saw the flame breake out so strōg against Regulars who were otherwise exempt by challenging of a thing which could not belon● but to a proper Ordinary in his Diocesse it might quickē them make them go about what they were doing with a little more speed and therupon they drew certaine points concerning my Lord of Chalcedons Authority in which they were desirous to be resolued and all of them concerning themselues and such as they had heard many of my Lord of Chalcedons Officers and friends speake of as things that were like to be put in practise But because it was not fit for thē to go vpon vncertaine reports they were desirous to know of my Lord of Chalcedon himselfe what his Lordship did conceiue to belong vnto him so that this Deuine is cleane out of his way in making the matter of approbatiō of Regulars the cause of the Laymens stirring His second reason to proue the daungers to be pretended only is because no man hath beene in daunger since the restitution of Episcopall Authority For answer to

of their tongue then their penne For they will not giue halfe that vnder their hands which they talke freely But if they went vpon a sure ground and meant nothing but wel and fairely what should all this need Well then so it is that the Deuine doth heere challenge more Authority for my Lord Bishop to wit a true Episcopall tribunal then his Lordship doth for himselfe For in his sayd Letter to the Lady vnder his own hand he saith it is a fictiō to which Letter I remit this man for answere to his 4. reason After these 4. substantiall reasons to proue that the daungers are only pretended this Deuine cometh to answere that which the Lay men say in their Letter that the execution of this Episcopall Authority alloweth no possibility of secrecy by asking why not aswell as the execution of Priestly function who say masse preach and communicate before many scores of men women and Children whereas to the Bishops Tribunall there come no children few women and not many men He asketh moreouer how the Bishop hath gone ouer almost all England and confirmed many thousands with sufficient secrecy How was secrecy kept in the primitiue Church How is it now kept in Ireland and Holland To this I answere first that it is no wonder that such men as this Deuine relate the case of English Catholiques elswhere as they please to strangers when this Deuine will tell men heere at home such a tale as this is in writing Secondly I tell him though he cannot but know it the Execution of Episcopall Authority in a Court is of its own nature publique There must of necessity be a Iudge and other Officers there must be partyes there must be witnesses there must be writing there must be records some must be sometymes grieued some will complaine some will appeale Is any of all this needfull in hearing of Masse Sermons or receyuing of Sacraments May not a man heare a Masse confesse and communicate without a Iudge a Summoner a Notary without an accuser a witnesse without a writing c What then doth this Deuine meane to bring such an argument Suppose there be 10. persons at Masse may there not be one alone Can a busines be so dispatched iu●idically in a Bishops Court without writing witnesse or Officer Nay againe suppose there must of necessity be 20. at Masse and a busines in the Bishops Court might be dispatched but with the priuity of 2. men would not euen this be more publique in regard the things must remayne in writing with note of place tyme and other circumstances or that one of the partyes may be grieued as it falleth out commonly in matters of suite For the Secrecy of the Bishops going ouer a great part of England cōfirming I am full glad that he they haue done so well with it and wish they may do so still But for all that it is not good bragging and as secret as it is I know many a right good man that would be loath to haue it so well knowne when he hath a Priest in his house as it is knowne whersoeuer almost his Lordship went and the secrecy it seemeth was so great in some places that there was a great complaint made in Parliament to what bouldnes the Papists were growne to haue a Bishop to whome there was such resort in a certayne place in Staffordshire where he confirmed many and shewed himselfe in his Pontificall Ornaments Thirdly I answere that suppose the Bishops going vp and downe and confirming were as secret and voyd of daunger as this Deuine would haue it what doth it make for his purpose Which is to proue that a Bishops Tribunall alloweth as much secrecy as the exercise of Priestly function For who doubteth but the Bishop may if he will confirme a man as priuatly as a Priest may communicate him Doth it then follow that he may with the same priuacy iudge and determine a controuersy betweene party and party What manner of arguing then is this Now for the Primitiue Church which our Deuine speaketh of I sayd a word before and it is cleare there is a great deale of difference For that persecution was more by fits more violent for the tyme but shorter in the interim there were such calmes as Christians had free resort to publique places of prayer and sacrifice and houses deputed and dedicated for that vse and that not onely by a conniuency but euen by publique allowance of the Emperours restoring vnto them their Churches permitting of free accesse to them the Cemiteries or places of buriall where the bodyes of the Christians and Martyrs reliques were buryed and kept There was an outward apparēt distinction in habit and haire betweene Clergy men others Where hath there beene any thing like this all this time of Schisme in England Haue not men inough to do to heare a Masse priuatly in a corner Where is there a Church to say Masse or to preach or an Oratory for mē to meet pray togeather or Church-yard for Catholiques to bury their dead Or where is there a Priest or Religious man that goeth publiquely in his habit or with his crowne shauen Would not any man count one halfe mad that should go so because they did so sometimes in the Primitiue Church What wonder then is it if in the Primitiue Church Bishops kept their Tribunals Prouinciall Coūcels met with many scores of Bishops as the Deuine sayth Though by his leaue they met not so freely nor exercised their Authority so much at all times to wit in those hoate fittes of persecution And what a wonder is it for our Deuine who must be supposed to haue a little knowledge of the Ecclesiastical History to bob men heere in the mouth with the state of the Primitiue Church The same is of Ireland and Holland For Ireland Catholique Bishops haue still continued in their seuerall Seas with their proper titles heresy hauing neuer taken so deep root there But heere it is well knowne that when our Catholique Bishops were suppressed they during their liues forbare the exercise of that power which they were in possession of the state of things being such as it was and impossible to exercise Episcopal Authority wherefore the Sea Apostolique did not put any Bishop in their place during the space of 60 yeares till of late the state of things nothing changed but only that for matters of life death the lawes were not so rigorously put in execution vpon informatiō of some men who longed for Myters as if the times were now for it Gregory the 15. of happy memory condescended to their importunity sending one with Title of a Bishop but not with that full power which belongeth to a Catholique Country which experience sheweth to be more then the times can well beare What comparison then betwene Ireland and England Now for Holland though considering the littlenesse of persecution they might ten tims better haue a Bishop