shew one lettre that I euer wrote or spake that the place to the Ephes conteineth all thinges necessarie for the church then this that he writeth may haue place If not then he is vnworthy to receiue answer seing he hath bene gyuen to vnderstand how far we extend that place Therefore whether there were Publike churches Pulpits Schooles vniuersities in Christian congregations perteineth not to the question althowgh it hath partly and might further be shewed onely I gyue the reader warning that Iudg. â— off those saied to handle the pen whilest I gaue to much credit to translations was not so fitly alledged to proue vniuersities The three next diuis are idle repetitions before answered Where I shewed that one high priest vvas ordeined ouer the Ievves onely that he might represent our S. Christ cheif off the vvhole church the D. answereth he was also for policie and gouernement His reason our Sauiour Christ came not to take away ecclesiasticall policie â—s vaine as thowgh there could be no ecclesiasticall policie onles one minister were ruler ouer a whole nation After he citeth Caluin in the same faithe he is wont For his wordes no reason compelleth to extend that to the vvhole vvorld profitable in one nation are onely vnderstanded off that gouernement in Iury before our Sau. Christes coming which ys manifest in that he saith that example ovvght not to be follovved considering it vvas doon in respect that the high priest vvas a figure off our Sauiour Christ and the priesthood being translated that right is likevvise And after that example off the priestes gouernement ouer the whole nation vvas but for a time That the pressing off the example off the high priest amongest the Ievves dravveth a Pope I leaue to be considered off that before written especially seing the high priest was not onely gouernour off the Iewes when they were paâ—ed in the land off Canaan but euen then also when as it is knowen they were scattered thorowgh owt all natioÌ„s in the world For as S. Luke saith it to haue bene immediatly after the ascension off our Sau. Christ so was it many yeares before his coming into the world So that he which will frame an Archbishop by that example establisheth the Ecclesiasticall charge off one ouer those which were scattered thorowghowt all the corners off the earth It would be also obserued how here the D plaieth on both handes For when we reason sometime onely off the proportion off the law to the gospell other sometime off the perpetuall law off God we receiue answer that we are Iewish ennemies to the libertie of the church But where there is any thing vnder the law coming within a furlong off his cawse he gripeth it for gospellike and which owght to be folowed I see that M. Nowel thincketh a Metro poltane may be ouer a Christian prouince as the high priest was ouer the Iwes wherin I can be but sory that all the Godly learned are not off one mind As for Hyperius he seemeth to reason vpon a supposition that yf the example off the gouernement off the high priest vnder the law should be folowed which he before denied that then a man might conclude an Archbishop ouer a Prouince but not a Pope ouer the whole churche This to be his meaning I thinck the D. him selfe will accord me els let him tel me what to answer to him that saith that yt is not red in the scripture that euer any off the Apostels toke vnto him self autority or primacy ouer thother Apostels but that a most perfect equality is shewed to haue bene in all that Christ did prescribe them equall offices in all thinges that that maÌ„ner of dominion which was not in thappostles time owght not to haue bene admitted in the ages which followed Likewise what he will answer to him which condemneth as new found orders Archdeacons Archelders and vicares Wherof the 2. first haue as I haueshewed better testimonie of their auncientie then the Archbishop and are yf not off the same birth yet off the same kinde that he Where I shew the titles of cheif off the Synagoge of the SaÌ„ctuarie of the hovvs of god to make directly against him coÌ„sidering that particular churches are novv in steed off theÌ„ and therfore there ovvght to be such not in euery Prouince or dioces but in euery particular coÌ„gregation the D. as amazed speaketh he can not tell what First that the Iewes had particular Synagoges as we particular congregations and that I haue confessed that before As if I had any where denied it or had not euen here in effect affirmed it or it helped him for answer which is the ruine off his cause For their Synagoges being the same that our particular churches in euery one off them being not one but many princes the vrging off that example bringeth diuers cheif gouernours or archbishops in euery particular church Then he saith one Christian commen wealth is but one church which is vntrue For first althowgh the church be in a Christian commen wealth yet nether is the commen wealth the church nor the church the commen weaith as shall appeare Besides I haue shewed that the scripture off whose manner off speach the question is vseth not to call a Prouince or dioces a church but ether the whole vniuersall or els a particular congregation Thirdly if it were so yet the answer is insufficient For if the name off the howse off God were coÌ„men as well to a church in a Prouince as in a particular coÌ„gregatioÌ„ yet what right hath he to pull the ecclesiasticall priesthood more to his prouinciall then to our particular church He saith the superioritie amongest the priestes and Leuites is by the ciuill law of Moses Which declareth him rauished off all iudgement it being manifest that they were ether Ceremoniall or Ecclesiasticall lawes wherwith the Lord disposed of the degrees of the ministerie wherof the Ceremoniall being abolished and therfore the chieftie off one priest ouer all we willingly reteine the ecclesiasticall Where to that alledged off Princes off the families off Leuites I replied that the Lord vvoulde by those titles as by liuely pictures imprint in the Ivves vnderstanding the chieftie off our S. Christ he answereth that maketh nothing against their offices Yes for that those that would conclude therof one chief now amongest the ministers in a Prouince are therby put to silence Where he addeth so the estate off a Prince ouer a land should be abolished be is friuolous considering that that gouernement hath other staies off the ordinance off god Where that chieftie amongest the ministers hath nothing but that it was ceremoniall And if my answer like him not he shall haue the bishops as litle for his aduantage which saith The Prince of the families doth not signifie any gouernour or one endued vvith povver but onely the firste and best man off the companie He complaineth that the Bishop speaking off
Apostle should neede make any proufe of it but off him which doothe a thing staggering and waueringe ther might be some dowbte whether he synned and therfore the Apostle hauinge said that he is condemned in so doinge addethe this reason for that he dothe it not of faithe which beinge sinne is therfore damnable Where he saithe that if a man should do nothinge wheroff he hathe not assurance by the word off God that he dothe well that therby should be ouerthrowne Christian libertie in indifferent thinges the faulte is in his want off vnderstanding For euen those thinges that are indifferent and maye be donne haue their fredome grounded off the word off God so that onlesse the word off the lord either in generall or especiall wordes had determined off the free vse off them there could haue bene no lawfull vse off them at all And when he seethe that S. Paule speaketh here off ciuill priuate and indifferent actions as off eating this or that kind of meate then the which their can be nothing more indifferent he might easely haue seene that the sentence off the Apostle reacheth euen to his case off taking vpp a straw For iff this rule be off indifferent thinges and not off all I would gladlie know off him what indifferent thinges it is giuen off and off what not And the same also I require off him in the other generall rule off doing all thinges to the glorie off god For iff that reache vnto all indifferent thinges it must needes comprise also this action of his Which iff it doo then as no man can glorifie God but by obedience and here is no obedience but where there is a worde it must followe that their is a worde And semethe it so strange a thinge vnto him that a man should not take vp a straw but for some pourpose and for some good pourpose or will he not giue the lord leaue to require off a Christian man endewed with the spirite off God as muche as the heathen require off one which is onelie endued with reason that he should do nothing wheroff he hathe not some ende and that in all his doinges whether publicke or priuate at home or abroade whether withe him selfe or with an other he owght to haue regard whether that which he dooth be donne in dutye or no And iff the taking vp off a straw be donne to good ende either off helping him selfe or others regarde of profite or pleasure or what els it hathe testimonie off the word off god And if it haue not an ende and a Good ende will not the A. giue the lord leaue to coÌ„demne that in his infinite wisdome which men by the light off a litle wisdome do accompte folishe or will he be so iniurious to the iustice off god that he maie not iudge that to be synne whiche they saye is donne against dutie What also that some euen off those heathen men haue tawght that nothing owght to be donne wheroff thow dowbtest whether it be right or wronge Whereby it appeareth that euen those which had no knowledge of the word off God did see mutche of the equitie of this which the Apostle requireth of a ChristiaÌ„ man and that the cheifest difference is that where they sent men for the difference off good and euill to the light off reason in suche thinges the Apostle sendeth them to the scoole of Christe in his worde which onely is hable thoroughe faith to giue them assurance and resolution in their doinges And althoughe to mainteine his former vnaduisednes he had rather saie that men should doo nothinge but which they beleue not to displease god then with the godly learned to say that they ought to doo nothinge which they are not assuredly perswaded of that it pleaseth God yet euen this which he sayeth off beleuinge that it doth not displease God I would knowe off him Where he can fetche the grounde off but in the worde off god For iff he doo beleue that it doeth not displease God and beleife be not but in respect of the worde off god it must followe that he hathe some word off God which tellethe him that that dothe not displease the Lorde And where he accusethe this doctrine of bringing-men to dispere he dothe it wronge For when doubtinge is the waye to dispere againste whiche this doctrine offrethe the reÌ„medie it muste needes be that it bringeth comforte and ioye to the conscience off man. The reason which I assigned why it is necessarie to haue the worde off God goo before vs in all our actions namely for that wee can not otherwise be assured that they please God he dothe not once touche His secoÌ„de significatioÌ„ of these wordes not to be of faithe that is not to be an article of faithe if it had any grace in it yet it is merely idle in this place and helpe the no more to the vnderstanding of the place of Saint Paul nowe in hande then smoke dothe the eyes And where in the ende he saieth that thes places doo proue as muche for all cyuill actions as for ecclesiasticall and that I can no more proue by thes that a certaine forme off discipline is appoincted in the Scripture then that euerie ciuill action is precisely commaunded to be doone without any change I graunt it neither did I alleadge them therefore but was driuen into this disputacion onely by occasion before alleadged in the beginninge off this diuision and manifestly expressed in the next 7. Diuision pag. 86. WHere as I alledged that in making ceremonies and orders off the churche this owght to be obserued which sainct Paul requireth that they offende none but especially that they offende not the churche off God the first exception off the answerer is that this rule prescribeth the dutye vnto priuate men and not generally vnto the churche As thoughe the rule were not generall or this thinge were prescribed vnto them in respect of that they were priuate and not in respect off beinge Christians whether priuate or publicke in which case that which is commaunÌ„ded to one â—s coÌ„maunded to ahor as if the Lorde were so carefull in priuate offences and careles in publike And iff offence ought to be taken heede off in thinges doone withowt many witnesses withowte all countenaunce off autoritie and once onely how muche more owght yt to be taken heede off in the orders off the church which haue so many lookers on so greate coÌ„tinuance and suche force off autoritie to strike yt deeper in His seconde exception is that by this meanes the orders off the churche shoulde be subiecte to one or twoo mens liking or misliking which answer procedeth off two foule an ouersight and wante off vnderstandinge off the worde offense For Saint Paule by offense doothe not meane displeasure or discontement but that wherby occasion is giuen to anie of synne and transgression off the lawe off God which maie as well be with alowance as disalowance when all
great liberalitie But this aide which the church getteth by encrease off godlie and hable Ministers receiueth litle thanck But the hatred off this cause draue yow headlonge vpon them as your aduertismentes vvhich followe doo declare As there are some among them that fauour this cawse so there are some that like not off it And yet seing they haue ioined togither yea vvhich is verie straunge made great sute vnto the Bishops that they might of there owne charges prouide suche as in seruinge off them might discharge that vvhich the bishop hath charged him selfe with your suspition off spoilinge the church might haue had a fitter lighting place then vpon the Innes off courte Thus muche against your disordered suspition not altogether from my purpose for it shall serue to shew wherupon I conceiued so good hope of them and off other the gentrie off the realme vvhich haue in diuerse places made the same contribution Yf any haue forsaken the ministerie withowt iust cause they are giltie off a horrible fault but I see yow accounte them forsakers off the Ministerie vvhich yow haue thrust owt suche is your equitie to vvhipp them owt and for going owt also And if they hould any off your tenthes and would be counsailed by me they should yelde them into your handes least in beinge partaker off your non residencie they drink also off plages which belonge therto Wher yow saie I haue not answered in deede if your one mā be wise ād godly and the hūdreth fooles and wicked I haue said nothinge nor meane not now to doo being worthier to be hissed owt then to be answered Yow saie that the 16. Actes ▪ sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off a noble interpretation This is allwaies your fashion either to corrupte the places of the scripture or els to tell that which no man dowbteth of But for what cause dothe S. Luke tell that he was so well thowght of dothe he not shew in the nexte ver to be the same which I haue alledged And therfore Master Beza regardinge the meaninge of S. Luke addeth the word therfore declaringe for what cause that testimoniall was giuen This is your reason S. Luke sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off therfore yt is vntrew that S. Paul to cut of all occasion off euill speache receiued him not but vpon commenmendation off the brethren bothe in Listra and Iconium I doe not saie that S. Paul would not haue receiued him vnlesse that euerie singuler person had giuē testimonie vnto him vvhich was in those places but I shewed how circunspecte S. Paul was in takinge any into any part off the ministerie and how it is not to be thowght that he would haue vppon the Testimonie off one proceeded vnto any election seing that in one which he him selfe was not ignorant what he was to auoid the euill speache off some he was carefull to haue the testimonie off the church As it cā not be proued ▪ that he would not haue receiued him if all had not consemed therto so may it easely be shewed that if the most part had not liked of him he would not haue taken him For besides that it was against S. Paules maner to doo any thing off his owne priuate authoritie in the church off God it had not bene aduisedly done to haue procured the testimonie off the church for the admitting off him into his companie if the churche not consentinge he would haue taken him for that would haue bred a great flame off displeasure betwene the church and S. Paul and should haue bene alwaies shot in the mouthe off the aduersaries against the authoritie of Timothes ministerie yea off Paules also vnto whom he was ioyined for that he had receiued one disaproued of the Christians them selues All which he might by your iudgement easely haue auoided iff either he would haue rested in his owne knowledge off him or els haue addressed him selfe to some one for his testimonie ād not to haue hazarded the alienatiō of the church by com̄ittinge the allowāce of Tim. vnto their testimonial But mine argument is nothinge worthe because it is drawen off an acte off the Apostle Yf this be trew S. Luke was euil aduised to in title his booke the act or deedes of the apostles For it is as much in the ans lāguage as a booke of deedes which christiā mē are not boūd to followe ād yet it was not withowt cause that whē there are cōteined in that booke bothe the doctrine and deedes of the Apost S. Lu. as off the greater parte intitled his booke the deedes or actes of the apostles wherfore dothe he in the begin̄ing of that booke repeating the sum̄e of his gospell by that transition or passage make one bodie of them bothe and bind them as it were in one volume was it not to giue the same authoritie vnto the one a◠to the other to shew that the church had wanted so muche of a perfecte directiō as it wanted of that storie Wherfore dothe he in the begin̄inge shew that our Sau. Christ instructed thē with the cōmaundementes thowchinge his kingdome was it not to teache vs that whatsoeuer they did in buildīge of the church they did it not of there owne heades but by his authoritie And if a cōmanndemēt vnto them be not a commaundemēt vnto vs then haue we no word in the Scripture to warrant baptisme with For the commaundement of baptisinge was spoken to the Apostles onely withowt any further lymytation Fynally vvherfore dothe S. Luke set owt the Apostles fylled vvith the holye Goste Was yt onely to gyue credyte vnto there doctryne that yt should be beliued and not vnto there Actes that they should be folowed yes assuredlie vnto there acres that they should of euerie one according to his vocation where they maye be folowed For the further confirmation wheroff yt ys to be consydered what S. Paul vvrote vnto Tymothe Whom he instructynge how he should behaue hym selffe towardes the troublers off the church dothe not onely call him to the regard off his doctrine but also his conduite or maner off doing Wherby he meant to note his order and maner off doyng in the church off God and publykly for yt could be smally otherwise to the purpose off that vvherfore yt ys alledged Sanct Paules pryuate doynges could gyue Tymothy lytle instruction how he should behaue hym selfe towardes the troublers off the Church To the Phillippians also he callethe the Bishoppes Deacons and whole church both to doing off that which they heard and which they had sene in hym Yf therfore S. Paul will haue the churches followe that vvhich he did amongest them yt ys manifest that the Actes off the Apostles are rules for vs to followe And vnlesse this be admitted I would gladly learne off M. D. Where in all the scripture he can proue the imposition of handes which I think he will not denie to be necessarie And this is that vvhich M. Caluin doth flatly
There are but two communities one Anabaptisticall which maketh equalitie off all thinges which is and euer was vnlawfull the other Christiā vvhich prouideth for neede of those vvhiche haue not vvherwith to finde them selues vvhich is and owghte to be perpetuall amongeste all Christians Therfore yow can not escape vvith this circuit of vvordes for either that communitie in the Actes vvas suche as owghte to be amongeste vs vvhiche yow denie and propounde as an absurde thinge or els it vvas Anabaptisticall vvhich is blasphemous againste the spirite off God. Althowghe men maie be good Christians withowte sellinge their landes and distributings of the price off them vnto those whiche haue nede yet they can not be good Christiās if for necessarie releife of the poore of the churche weroff they are they be not contente to sell the neede so requirring euen their landes And suche was the estate of the churche off Ierusalē vvhere there were so manie poore and so fewe riche that the vvante of those vvhiche had not vvith muche a doo vvas supplied by sale off landes and howses off them that had suche possessions Which extreme pouertie maie easely be seene in other places vvhere not hable to be fournished of the riche of that churche yt vvas faine to be supplied by diuers other Vnto the reasons alledged owte off S. Paule to proue that the same communitie is commaunded of him to all Christians yowe answere not one worde Vnto the vvhiche I vvill ad this that I doubte not but that vvhiche vvas doone there vvas so farre from oxtraordinarie doinge that yt vvas doone by the cōmaundemente of God in the lawe vvhere the lorde chargeth the Israelites that there shoulde be no beggers amongeste them For Saincte Luke seemeth to haue alluded to that place whē he saithe there vvas no needy amongeste them vvhich expresseth moste aptely the Hebrew worde which Moises vsethe That which I browghte off Ananias and Saphira was to proue there was no suche communitie amongeste them as yowr answer supposed and to glase vp the the windowes of Anabaptistry vvhich yow had opened And surely if the anabaptistes had as they neither haue nor can haue warrant of their communitie by this example off the moste pureste and ancientest church and in deede then the onely church in the worlde approued by all the Apostels replenished vvith the spirite off God they shoulde haue stronger houlde then M. D. shoulde euer be hable to pull from them I doo not thincke yow fauour the Anabaptistes communitie but partly seduced off others and partely overcaried vvith the violence off yowr affections yow are vnawars fallen into that errer vvherby the Anabaptistes grownde it Where I saide that all off the churche did not sell their possessions I confesse the worde possession was not so aduisedly put seinge therby is properly signified howse and lande and those which vvee call vnmouable goodes vvhiche Saint Luke saithe vvere solde off as many as had them But yet nothinge falleth of that for vvhich I did alledged yt and it is rather therby confirmed For shewinge that all owners off howse and land did sell them and not that euery one vvhich had other goods did the like therby is gyuen to vnderstande that not euery one which had monay or other mouables brought them vnto the Apostels The Adm. reason yow are not able to stir For yf S. Paul. For auoiding suspicion in a monay matter did communicate the election with the churches vvhy should he not to auoide suspicion off percialitie ambition and tyranny communicate with them the election off the ministers Surely he was as far from suspition off this couetous trechery with all men as from suspition off these faultes And so much farther as such excellent wittes and learninge as was in him are easelier ouercome off those other vices then off this pilferinge off monay which the grosser and vnlearned sorte for the moste parte offende in Na vvhy shoulde not S. Paule be in feare off this monay suspicion if he had taken vpon hym the election off the ministers shuttinge owte the churches Doo yow thincke that those which woulde haue doone hym that iniurie to thinke that he woulde haue turned the churche money vnto his owne vse which often times with his owne hande erned bothe his owne lyuing and others too vvhich refused the wages which he might iustly haue chalenged woulde not also haue suspected hym off the same faulte if he had chosen the ministers at his pleasure withowte consente off the churche Or doo yow not thincke that there are manie which suspecte diuers off the Bishopps that waie which saie that for a dishe of fruicte of the gouldē gaiffe they lease owte and make all manner off marchandise of the Lordes orchardes that he vvhich hathe no gifte in his harte yet if he haue a gifte in his hande neede no other keie to opē the church doore and enter into a benefyce Yf therfore for the auoidinge of suspiciō of corruption by moneie it was needeful for Sainct Paule to communicate the election off such ministers with the churche howe muche more was yt needefull for the auoidinge off bothe the suspition off that vice and diuers others he shoulde doo the like in the ordinary ministers And if that vvhere needefull in S. Paule for vpholdinge off his honeste estimation to the greater fruicte off the gospell I saie as I saide vvhat Archebishop shall dare take vppon him the makinge off a minister vvithovvte consente off the churche For if Saint Paules innocencie of life vvhich as the diamonte a peble stone might shame all the Archbishoppes that liue this daie had neede off this aide they muste off necessirie runne into suspicion off all those vices vvhiche contemninge the iudgemente off the churches make suche elections off their owne autoritie Where yow saie that Saint Paule mighte have chosen them him selfe if he woulde I saie that it is vntrue ād a manifeste begginge of that in controuersie And to saie so is asmuche as if yow had saide he mighte haue hazarded his good estimacion if he woulde and lefte it at the curteousye off quarellers which sowghte euery occasion of speakinge euil of his ministerie Beside that yow muste vnderstande that in the gouernmente of the churches the Apostels vvere gouerned by the spirite of God whose counsaile when this was it was no more lawful for him to refuse yt thē to disobey the lorde Touching the vntrewth he chargeth me with in that I saide the churche chose 1. Act. it is before answered And it is a vaine quarell of the A. that there was no election off the church becawse an Apostel maie not be chosen by men As thowghe I had not set downe before when I spake off that election that I mean not the choise which was made off one owte off those two but the choise off those two owte of the whole churche not that choise which determined the Apostellshipp but which determined who they shoulde stande
iudgement dependeth that no one parte off the worlde no one citie no one the leaste towne receiued the gospell wholy in the Apostles time If I shoulde suffer yow to goe awaie with this greate and vngrounded sainge yet therby can not be concluded that there are more Christians nowe in a parte off Europe then was throwghoute the worlde in the Apostles time But I require proofe of that yow set downe so precisely not onelie because I thinke yow can not warrāt yt by any but also because I haue somewhat to excepte againste yt For yt maie appeare that Samaria did wholy receiue the gospell For beside that yt is recited that vvith one accorde the multitudes gaue heede vnto that Philipp saide S. Luke declaringe in the 10. and 11. verses that all that vvere in Samaria from the litle to the great vvere bewitched vvith the inchaunmentes off Symon addeth in the 12. verse that vvhen they beleued they vvere baptised This hauing relation vnto that vvhich goeth before vvhich is that all were abused by the magycian yt followeth that the whole cytie receyued the gospell Wherunto maie be referred the emulation betwene Ierusalem and Samaria wherby yt came to passe that the gospell thruste oute off Ierusalem was both easelier and more generally receiued in Samaria Lykewise that yt is saide in the 13. verse that euen Simon him selfe off al other moste vntoward beleeued and that in the 14. ver that Samaria had receiued the vvord off God and not many in Samaria as he speaketh off other places where the Gospell was but in parte receiued Yf one excepte that it is not like euery singular person turned at the preaching off Philip I answere that in suche streight signification of all there shall be at this daie founde no kingdome and almoste no citie which hath receiued the gospell But if the whole profession off the gospell be estemed off that which is doone by the bodie and state of the cytie yt seemeth that the wordes off Saincte Luke will beare owte a whole and generall profession at the leaste off the moste parte which yow denie And yf it be trewe that Euseb vvriteth we haue a manifeste testimonie off the whole receiuing off the gospell in the citie off the Edissens which was wonne vnto the Gospell by the preachinge off Thaddeus sente to kinge Agbarus by Thomas the Apostell off vvhom yt is vvritten that he browght all to the knowledge of the gospell and that the vvhole citie of the Edissens hauing at that time giuē her name vnto the profession off Christe so continued vnto the time wherin Eusebius vvrote Where yow vvoulde seeme to saie some great matter when yow add not at Ierusalem yt is asmuche as if yow shoulde say that no towne receiued the gospell because Ierusalem the moste murderinge towne in the whole vvorlde did not vvhose rebellion and for it destruction beinge foretolde off our Sau. Christe muste needes follow For touchinge the Apostles abode there it was not for the hope off any plentifull haruest to be reaped in that cytie But partly for that the Iewes vnto whom they were sente to preache first had their concourse thether from all corners of the worlde partly to fullfill the prophecye off the sounde of the gospell from Syon into all partes of the worlde and thirdly to prepare a readier passage for his heauy iudgementes to come vppon that cytie That also also which yow add that the tenthe parte off the inhabitans off Ephesus Antioche and Rome was not Christian in the Apostles times is onely saide and it is muche for yow to speake so largely off the tenthe not hable to proue the fyueth or thirde And althowghe yt can not be certainly knowen what nomber of beleuers were at thes places yet it maie be by all likelyhood shewed that it is vntrwe especially off the twoo first Of Antioche wee reade that when they which were scattered by persecution moued in Ierusalem preached there the hande off the Lorde vvas vvith them and a great nomber beleuinge turned vnto the lorde And in the 24. verse yt is saide that at the preachinge off Barnabas there vvas a great multitude added vnto the lorde And yet in the 26. verse yt is declared that afterward Barnabas procuringe Saint Paules comminge thether they bothe together abyding there by the space off one whole yeare tavvght a great multitude Here is mention off three great multitudes which at seuerall times were turned vnto the lorde in that citie and how dare yow yet saie that al thes were not the tenth parte Of Ephesus also it is written that the fruicte off S. Paules preaching there by the space of twoo yeares was so greate that the bookes off those which had exercised curiouse and vnlawfull artes vvere bourned in the sight off all men which coulde not be doone without great daunger vnto the church onles the greatest parte off the citie had beleued Which maye yet more appeare for so much as Demetrius the siluersmythe affirmeth that the arte of makinge shrines and Dianas temple vvas in danger to be set at nothinge And as the A. is to narrow in esteming the fruicte of the Apostles preaching accompanied with suche powre off miracles and diuersities off giftes off the holy goste wherby were gathered greater nombers off professors off the gospell then nowe by the symple preaching off the worde so in his accompte off the nomber off professors off the Gospell now he is marueilously lauishe For where are those whole contreis nations and kingdomes which professe Christe If he take in the Papistes to make vp his reckuinge they will not be receiued For wee speake off the churche off Christe and off those which imbrace the gospell and so himselfe had put yt in his answer to the admonition The papistes therfore which pretendinge the name of Christe persequute the gospell are the Synagogue off Sathan and must in this accounte off Christians be shut owte howsoeuer by changing off the professors off the gospell into those which professe Christe yow woulde seeme to winde them in The mixture which was in the Apostels times off professors off the gospell with those which were professed enemies vnto yt beinge yet in those kingdomes yow speake of yow are so farre from shewinge that the multitude off professors off the gospell in Europe is greater now then yt was in then in all Asia Africke and Europe that yow doo not so muche as shewe that the nomber off Christians in Europe yt selfe is nowe greater then in time off the Apostles When it is saide that the whole church assembled for election all men knowe that therby is mente that particular companie off professors off the gospell which dwellinge nighe together make one assemblie and therfore that yow write off the impossibilitie off gathering all the church scattered throwgh out the whole worlde into one place is but a meere daliance Yow saie they mighte well meete withowte confusion in the Apostles times
which can not be nows the reason yow assigne in the fewnes in one place off the professors then and multitude now Althowghe yt be graunted that there are moe nowe in the cities then were then and that be geuen yow too that the multitude owghte to chaunge the forme off elections neither wheroff yow are hable to shewe yet yt still fallethe owte againste yow For allbeit ther be moe professors in a citie then were yt followeth not that there are moe belonginge vnto one assembly then there were thē Wherin I wil goe no further thē to the exāple of the church which yow alledge to haue chosen the deacons vvhere coulde hardly be lesse then sixe thowsande persons seing that at the second sermon of Saincte Peter there beinge fiue thowsande it is affirmed afterward that multitudes off men and weomen were added Now where shall yow haue lightly in the cities vvhich professe the gospell one onely church of so many thowsand persons cōsidering that for the greater cōmoditie of meeting and gouerning the whole masse off Christians in one citie yt is deuided into seuerall churches as it were flockes into seuerall feedinges And if yow vvoulde haue proued any thinge yow shoulde not haue considered howe the nomber off Christians are increased in their cities but howe they are encreased in their churches And so yow shoulde haue founde that by your owne reason the elections in the time off persequution owghte rather to haue bene made by one and the electiōs now by many seinge in persequuted churches for vvāte off the commoditie off diuiding them selues into proportionable assemblies the nomber beinge more the danger off tumulte and confusion muste by yowr owne sayinge be greater Yow saie yt is a verie good reason that because the churche was vnder the crosse therfore yt was few in nomber in comparison but yow answer not the auctoritie which I alledged touchinge the encrease off the children of Israell more vnder the crosse then in prosperitie The reason yow add off many hypocrites in the peace of the churche hath small force For that there are in persequuted churches manie hypocrites maie appeare by the Israelites which dred in persequution made often rebellions in the wildernes likewise by the complaintes off S. Paul that al sought their owne not Christes that al were turned from him That one example onely is hable to ouerthrowe that vvhich yow put so generally yet yowr one example off London is not hable to confirme your pourpose yt serueth yow therfore for a pinche at the citie and for no reason off yowr cawse And albeit the backslyding from the Gospell was throwgh the realme verie horrible in Queene Maries daies yet there is no cause to picke Londō owte as the worste seinge there were great nombers there which vvith hasarde off all they had and of their lyues frequented assemblies vvhere the worde off God was truly preached and the Sacramētes purely administred the like meetinges beinge rarely founde in other places no to our owne shame be yt spokē not in the vniuersitie where of moste righte they should haue beene What gaine yow by that the churche was diminished in Ierusalem seinge the decrease of one churche was the encrease off diuers other wherunto those off Ierusalē adioined them selues Therfore yow conclude not well in sainge that particular churches by persecutions are diminished because one churche off Ierusalem was so no more thē yow can saie that a man hath a vvhite head because he hathe one white heare on his head but I maie rather saie that by persequution the particular churches are encreased for somuche as Samaria and other churches were by that flight of Ierusalem partly adorned with teachers partly augmented in disciples And therby is confirmed that I haue set downe off the merueilous spawne off the churche vnder the crosse bothe becawse euerye one dryuen from Ierusalem was as good seede which browght his hundreth or fiftie folde and for that after Ierusalem was deliuered of that birthe she conceiued againe and browghtforthe as maie appeare a greater nomber then before What are my vvordes vverby I affirme that the churches in time off persecution meete often and kepe together yt is that I precisely denie Verely this is too homelie rhetoricke to affirme I saie that vvhich I manifestly denie And althowghe it be more clearer then the son̄e that a smaller nomber maie better knowe one a nother then a great those which dwell nere one to a nother then that dwell farre of and scattered those vvhich meete oftener then vvhich meete seldomer yet the A. dowbteth not to saie that the contrarie of this is a knowen trwthe Wher he alledgeth for profe the often conference and triall off euery one before they be receiued For the firste yt maie be easelie vnderstanded that seinge yt is daungerous for them to meet together godly politie doothe teache them to breake their companies as soone as they maie conueniently And therfore the publicke action ended off preaching prayinge and receiuing the Sacramentes the conference which may be and is commonly in the churches peace one vvithe another throwghe feare off the daunger vvhich maie come off being seene man it together is cut off As for the knowledge by triall off those vvhich are receiued into the churche if he knewe that yt comethe onely off the reporte off twoo or three which giue testimony off those which are to be receiued and that yt extendeth not to any vnderstanding gyuen to the churche off his giftes either of teaching or gouernment but onely that he is a faithfull man I saie if he knewe thes thinges or knowing thē woulde acknowledge them there shoulde be no cause vppon confidence off that triall to fasten such knowledge one of a nother in a churche persequuted Before I further answer the D. reason touching the change of the manners of the Christians in times off peace from that they were vnder persequution vnderstand good reader that this is the very reason off the archpapist Hosius againste the election off the church which affirmeth that there is greater grauitie and constantie in the Christians vnder persequution and therfore that this manner off election by the bishop was browght in nowe to Hosius and the D. I answer that when wickednes breaketh into open actions then they are no more Hypocrites but openly wicked and suche as owght not onely be taken heed off but without speedy amendement remoued I graunte yt is no shame to the churches to haue Hypocrites for asmuche as the iudgement off man can not discerne them and off them and none other is the parable off tares vvhich forbiddeth weeding vntill the daie off haruest and they are onely those which can not be rooted owte But to saie that beside those which are corrupt in religion yt is full off dronkardes whoremongers c. Yt is more then euer S. Paule reproched any the moste diffigured churches he wrote vnto For how manie suche persones as be founde in
notwithstanding the misteries of God as the children of God them selues And althowghe the persequution shoulde giue some aduancement to knowledge that waies yet it hindreth more otherwaies in that it letteth the often meetinges to heare the vvorde of God vvherby knowledge is bredd in that also pouertie wher with it is cōtinually yoked draweth many cares for this present life for them and theirs Likwise continuall feare they be in euen duringe the time of their meetinges for the vvorde off God enemie vnto the vnderstanding and puttinge to flighte the powres of the minde vvherwith knowledge is gotten and also the often and soudein shiftinges from place to place muste needes be a lett to that tainment off knowledge in the vvord off god Where yow call vpon answer vnto your reason yow haue it that the time off peace drawethe no more ignorance in the professors off the gospell then the time of persequution and therfore the difference between thes times in that poincte to be euill assigned I alledged also that the elections off the bishoppes vvere so euill and of so vnfitte persones that althowgh the election off the churche shoulde swarue muche yet it can hardly choose vvorse then the bishopes doo wherunto yow answer not The distinction of being of the churche and in the church I browghte and allowed of it yet as thowgh yow had browght it and I refused it yow labour in confirmation of it But that which needeth yowr helpe and for proofe wherof I aske some testimonie of scripture that Idolaters and papistes are in the church is not proued As for dronkardes and whoremongers 2c Yt is spoken off before close papistes and Atheistes which dissemble their vvickednes are in the nomber off Hipocrites and therfore muste be holden to be in the church vntil the Lorde discouer them For professed Papistes and Atheistes which neuer made profession off the gospell it is not needefull to waite for the sentence off excomnnication to cut them of seinge they vver neuer of the church If notwithstandinge their professed enemitie vnto the gospell they should be accounted off the church because they agree to heare the worde and receiue the sacrament with vs then a Turcke or a Iew professinge his Turkisme or Iudaisme if he be contented to heare the worde and receiue the Sacrament is so also to be accoumpted Which if it be absurd it can be no good reason to saie that they owghte therfore to be holden off the churche because they are in some respectes contente to he are the worde and receiue the Sacramentes And I vvoulde gladly learne where the Lord hath vvilled vs so to caste awaie the vse of our iudgement that when men make open profession that they are members off the bodie of the Pope which is Antchriste yet wee muste accounte off them as off members off Christe or howe this is to iudge iustlie Yow are very vnfaithfull in reporting my wordes continually I nether saie that Hypocrites onely are in the church and not of yt and the place in the margent I alleadge to another purpose then yow affirme that is to proue that the papistes and Idolaters beinge vvithowte haue not to doo with the church nor the churche vvith them where yow woulde proue by those wordes if any brother be an Idolater that Idolaters maie be in the churche yow muste vnderstand firste that it is one case off him that hath giuen his name to the gospell and afterward slydeth from that profession to Idolatrie and another of him vvhich neuer gaue it but hath bene from his infancie an Idolater For althowghe the firste can not be seuered from the church withowt solemne sentence of excōmunication because by a publike profession off the trwth he was once receiued into the bodie therof yet there is not lyke reason off him which was neuer so setled And this differēce Saint Paule dooth make when he giueth leaue to a Christian to haue to doo with an Idolater of the worlde that is which hath not bene of the churche and yet will not suffer him to haue to doo with one which is famously knovven for so the the word signifieth to be a brother Wheruppon followeth that forsomuche as our Idolaters professinge their poperie still are not nor can not be famously knowen for professors off the gospell this place of S. Paule openeth no dore for them to enter into the churche Furthermore yt muste be obserued what kinde off Idolatrie yt is which Saint Paule saithe maie fall into a brother and yet he reteine the name of brother This appeareth vpon the discourse he maketh in that Epistle to haue bene onely a sittinge downe to eate at the feaste of Idolaters made in honour of their Idoles withowt any honour doone to idoles by sacrifice or bodily vvorship and vvithowt anie conscience of that meate more then of other Which althowghe he proue a spice of Idolatrie yet was yt one of the leasie and lighteste kindes and such as holdinge stil the foundacione off Christianitie coulde not vvithowt obstinacie in it cut from the church Wherby falle the owte that the papistes vvhich in their Idolatrie rase the foundations of trewe religion can not by that place come into anie accounte off the church off God. For the first place off Maister Caluin that there are in the Church contemners off God and vvhich lyue dissolutely if the S. had added the nexte wordes that suche ovvght vvith all diligence to be taken avvaie by excommunication he might haue bene as hamed to alledge this sentence to so small purpose The other that Saint Paul meaneth the absteining from a disordered brother off priuate societie and not of the publicke communion yt is true in deede but to no purpose For withal he confesseth that the other owght to be seuered from the communion But forasmuche as it is not in the power of a priuate man to excommunicate that perteining as he saith vnto whole bodie off the churche by whose cōsent yt owght to be doone and yet in his power to kepe him selfe from his priuate societie he concludeth against the Anabapt which absteined from the holy cōmunion if any liuing offensiuely were receiued that it folowed not because S. Paul woulde haue one absteine frō priuate familiaritie therfore he would haue him absteine from the communion Which is no parte off our question and is too shamefully alledged considering that the place making nothing to this question striketh starcke dead another off his cawses towching the sole excommunication of the bishopp And althowghe it be owte off place yet hauing gotten the booke yt shall not be vnprofitable to admonishe the reader off the S. vnfaithfull dealing in his former allegations off Maister Caluin for vvhere pa. 81. he to conclude that the discipline is not of the substantiall notes of the churche alledgeth a sentence owt off this booke beside that I haue shewed how euill he concludeth off his wordes it is to be noted that in the same
the parable of the sower in the 13. of Sainct Mathew forsomuch as according to his saying for one in the church which heareth profitablie three doo the contrarie yt muste follow that euen in the persequuted churche there muste be thrise as manie euill as good Onles peraduenture he will saie that our S. Christe spake that off the estate off the church in time off the ciuill magistrate which was spoken off the whole estate off the churche vnto the worldes end and especially to that present churche which was vnder the crosse Ys it trewe vvhich yow heere affirme can yt not be otherwise in the time off persequution but that churche offices muste be chosen by common consent Howe cometh then to passe that yow denie the election Actes 1. and 14. to haue bene made with the consent off the churche How happeneth yt that yow affirme that Timothe and Titus off their owne authorities withowt the consente ether off eldershipp or people appoincted ministers vnto the churches in Ephesus and Creata that in Cyprians times which were times of persequution the electiō vvas made in some places vvithowt the people verily he had need be a verie kun̄ing ioiner which should set the◠together for the impossibilitie which yow imagine yt is not such but that if the commoditie of the churche and the institution off God had so suffred the churches woulde haue submitted them selues and their voices in their elections vnto the order of one And besides that christian humilitie and loue off aduancing the trwth for which they had forsaken all woulde haue let them to that submission there was Ecclesiasticall discipline to driue them vnto it Onles they woulde rather quittethe church which lightnes doothe not agree with the zeale which yow for yowr aduantage ascribe vnto a persequuted church HEere he denieth that he hath saide that the consent off the churche in the choise off the minister can not stand with the time off the Christian magistrate All the reasons vvhich he alledged are to proue that the election vnder a Christian magistrate can nor be safelye and conuenientlie committed vnto the churche and euē here he saith it is in thes times pernicious and hurtfull But that which can not be safely and cōueniently doone owghte not be doone muche les that vvhich is pernicious and hurtfull Therfore if yow thinke as yow speake yow think as I haue saide that the churches election can not stand with the time of A Christian magistrat And your salue wherwith yow woulde plaster yt that the ciuill magistrate maie ordeine so if he liste is nothing worth For if it be daungerous if yt be inconuenient as yow say to committe the election to the churche he owgte not althowge he woulde giue it into her handes Where yow conclude that yt was in powre off the ciuill magistrate to order that matter because the Emperours made lawes off the election which they woulde not haue doone yff yt had bene ordered by the worde off God yow are to farre wyde For wee reade that Aza made a lawe that who soeuer did not seeke the Lord should die And there are lawes made with vs that men shall heare the worde off God and receiue the sacramentes and yet thes thinges are commaunded of God and vnchangable nether is yt at the pleasure off any magistrate to order them otherwise Yf the reasons vvhich Musc bringeth for conformacion off the election off the churche can be answered then I will leaue them and followe his authoritie otherwise I accounte that althowghe he wrastel with it vvith his lefte hand yet he vpholdeth yt with his righte T. C. concealed nothing subtilely in leauing owt that the ministers ovvght to be blameles he lefte owte that which made nothing ether for or againste the pourpose If the A. had considered what I proue owt of this place ether he should haue omitted this or spoken yt againste his consciēce For I propounded onelye that the election off the churche was both in the times of the Christiā magistrate and cōfirmed by them and the D. can not denie but this place proueth that fully whether it be according to the doctrine of the Apostles or no I shewed before Therfore this disputation is with your selfe and with nothing which I set downe And if I had so set it downe whether the decree off the Emperour would haue borne yt owt considering that the sentence which I lefte owghte to be shut in a parenthesis I leaue yt vnto the iudgement of the reader As for the reasons vvhich are vsed for that pourpose the one that he would haue said decre◠and not wee decree is answered before Thother of propounding three owt of which one should be knowen not practised at any tyme by the Apostles is not sufficient to proue that the Emperour did not set before him their example seing that in the principall poinctes and causes off the election amongest which the chusers are the efficient he kepte him selffe vnto the election of the Apostles Yea if it be well considered yt shall be easely perceiued that he stucke too curiously and precisely vnto the election Actes 1. whilest as there were two sett vp of which one should be taken so in a grater multitude he would haue three out of which he would drawe one And althowgh the imitacion of the doctrine off the Apostles were onely as yow would haue yt that the moste pure should be taken yet yow can not denie but the Emperour tooke this to be the best way to haue most incorrupt ministers that the election should be made by the inhabitantes off the citie Howbeit because I propounded onely to proue that elections by the church haue bene confirmed by Emperours I will not striue with him in this point because I will stop vp the holes as muche as may be wherat he breaketh owt alwaies from that which is in question Yt were an euill interpretation to expound the inhabitantes off the cytie the cheife off the citie especially considering that the decree of other Emperours vvhich followed ordeined that the minister should be chosen by all the people And considering that the Nouelles in latin are corrupte in many places yt is vnreasonable to expound the Code and other lawes by them especially with such open violence And yt may be that the translator in steed off the heades of families put the heades off the citie but for this also I will not striue What ether against my cause or for yowres conclude yow off that the Metropolitan ordeined one off the three which were chosen after that sort Likewise what gaine yow if which is vntrue or very doutefull as that which hath autoritie off bothe sides a man should accord yow that Charles the great was Emperour of the French and not off the Duch Thes are nothing but baites to draw from the cause which yow would so faine shifte yowr handes of The shelter also yow seke in those wordes according to the canons off that
constrained by corruption off tymes maie departe from the Apostolicall election shuttinge owt the people but I denie that that is warranted by substantial argumentes Beside I haue shewed that heere in wordes against vs in his reasons he stādeth for vs Which shall beste be vnsterstanded in that the D. being not hable to lyfte the whole hath mangled them and snatched here and there a worde if peraduenture vntwisted he might deale with them which otherwise he coulde not breake For where I cited owt off Musculus that yt is a boundage vnto the church to haue their minister thruste vppon yt vvithovvt choise off the people he answereth that subiection to magistrates is no bondage wherin he toucheth nether heauen nor earth For he should haue answered as vnto Musculus and not as vnto me considering that I alledged that owt off him off vvhome he hath taken all his reasons And therfore the note off Anabaptisme which he markethe all those vvith that saie yt is bondage vnto the churche to haue their pastor thrust vppon them lighteth vppon Musculus vvhich thus speaketh and affirmeth yt constantly Then his answer is abegging off that in question when he saith that subiection in lawfull matters is no bondage yt being in question vvhether yt be lawfull for the magistrate to take awaie the election from the church To that also owt of Musculus that the minister chosen by the church maie rule vvith a good cōscience and the people obey vnto him easelier then vvhen he cometh in againste their will and thervppon concluded that forasmuche as that manner of election is to be followed vvhich maketh moste to assure the mynisters cōscience of his calling and that the people should be more obedient vnto his doctrine therfore that onely vvas to be holden his answer is that he maie be assured otherwise and that the people otherwise will obey which if yt were true as yt is not is not sufficient for that he is not so easelie assured nor they so easely obey And vvhere as he saith that he which is assured off an inward calling need not to doubte of his owtward yow should vnderstand that the assurāce of the inward calling depēdeth a great parte of the owtward for allbeyt the sprite of God worketh that assurance yet he worketh by the owtward means of the iudgemēt of the elders ād off the church touching his aptnes for the ministrie whileste he considereth that that calling is not the calling off men but off God throwgh the ministerie of men Nether is there any one excepe those vvhich are called extraordinaryly vvhich can haue assurance off any inward calling but by the means off owtwarde For if he were assured that God had called him without the calling off men he owght to obey his voice althowgh men would not call him So that this not distinction but seperation off the knowledge off an inward calling from the owtward is not onely absurde but confirmeth the Anabaptistes which boste off an inward calling where no calling off the church wente before That he addeth yf yt be according to the forme of that church where he is called is but a begging off the question For it being in question whether euery calling that any church vseth be lawfull and seing the minister can not be assured off his owtward calling oneles yt be lawfull it followeth that he vvhich presumeth one must needes presume the other Vppon Musculus saying that the thrustinge off the minister vppon the church vvithout her election dravveth bondage c. and the D affirming that suche elections are meet for the church vnder the christian Magistrate I concluded that therby great iniurie was doone to the Christian Magistrate giuen off God not onely to preserue but to encrease the churches libertie To all vvhich firste the D. answereth that he giueth nothing to the magistrate but which belongeth vnto him and that yt is the magistrates right to vse that kinde of appoincting off ministers which he thincketh good which is a grosse begging off that in controuersie Secondly he saith that the pastors had neuer better cause to obey their pastors neuer les cause to complaine off bondage and cōstraint then nowe when the pastors are chosen without the consente off the churches which as it is barely saied hath no reason to leane vppon is confuted by common sense so it is directly contrarie to that Musculus his author affirmeth in the wordes before alledged Onely for the matter off libertie he alledgeth that the true libertie of the church consisteth in libertie of cōscience and freedome from false doctrine wherunto I answer that it consisteth in them but not onely for to vse assemblies for the ministring of the worde and Sacramētes c. is a libertie of the church And they are not myne but Musc wordes which calleth the election by the church a libertie and the other a bondage of the church I imagine not the corrupt estate to be in the lawes and goūernment off the Christian magistrate but contrariwise giue that vertue to his godly gouernment that the estate off religion maie be easelie pure with him vvhich can be hardly or not without great daunger pure without him Yow if not in wordes yet in deede make the gouernment off the christian magistrate alwaies fraught with dronkardes Idolaters whoremōgers Atheistes c. which was not so before he entred which is nothing els then to make him Lorde of misrule and in steed of a noursing father a fosterer of synne which is the iniurie I complaine off Where yow saie that it is commendation vnto the magistrate to correcte such disordered persons yow saie well but smally to the pourpose smally to your aduantage For if the church hath by benefite of the Christian magistrat besides her owne censures his helpe off ciuill punishmentes for repressing synne she hauing better meanes to weed oute the wicked thē be fore maie be more easely discharged of those vnprofitable burdens I haue not therfore trāsferred the faultes off men vnto the gouernement but yow haue laied to my charge that which your felfe faulte in and I before confuted The forme off election in the Apostles tyme is not chaunged by the magistrates confirmacion For beside that that is properly no parte off the election but a thing vvhich followeth yt this right off confirmacion of elections was in the Apostles times And althoughe the practise was not generall yet there being euen in in their times some Christian magistrates as appeareth by that which hath bene spoken there can be small doubte but this forme off election had in certeine places euen during the Apostles times his approbation If it had not yet the forme theroff is no more changed therby then the forme of preaching and administring the Sacramentes when the magistrate did not allowe of them differeth from that which is nowe when he mainteineth them so appeareth that the magistrates cōfirmatiō standeth without breache of the Apostical forme of electiō which he denieth Thes
trifling questions here albeit moste vnworthy yet are answered almoste all before And if there were a legion moe they are not onely confuted in that this manner off election by the churche confirmed by the magistrate hath bene vsed more then â—00 yeares together but also by the D. owne wordes wherby he leaueth yt in the princes pleasure so to order yt still For if there were such incoÌ„ueniences and absurdities as he imagineth how hath the practise continued so longe bene thowght good by so many good Emperours and so many learned men in all those ages Or if all they were a sleap or of so shorte sighte that they could not see thes inconueniences which the D. hath espied how commeth yt to passe that he leaueth yt in the magistrates pleasure to establishe this order encombred with suche inconueniences and absurdities For the chalenges wherby he would giue to vnderstand that I haue not faithfully alledged Musculus the firste is that I affirme that he vvente aboute to defend the election vsed vvhere he vvas by this that it approched to the election of the primatiue church which he saith is vntrue But the reason wherwith I confirme yt that Muscu saithe yt vavs made not by one minister but by al by the voices of the Senate vvhere some nomber off the people vvere He toucheth not The second that I call the choise off the minister by the churche the Apostolicall forme yet they are not my wordes but Musculus his authors vvhich calleth yt the oulde the fytteste the deuine the Apostolicall and lavvfull election Where he saith that Musculus dooth not call the other elections forced I woulde gladly knowe what difference there is betwene forced and thruste vpon For Musculus in the same tytle maketh all one a mynister thruste vppon the church and a minister which is not chosen off the church in thes wordes The forme off election vsed in the Apostles times is conformable to the libertie and priuiledge off the church vvherof Cyprian made mention and that forme off choise vvherby men began to be thrust vppon the people off Christe being not chosen off yt dooth agree to a church vvhich is not free but subiecte to bondage Hetherto yt hathe appeared that although Musc Iudgement be not wholy for vs yet the reasons vvhich he alleadgeth for this cause are suche as can not be shaken Now I will further shew that as there is some disagreement betwene ours and his Iudgement so there is further distance betwene hym and the D. First therfore he saithe that as the election by the church endured vntill the time off Christian magistrates so the election made by the church and confirmed by the christian magistrate endured vntill that time that the bishoppe off Rome hauinge wronge owte both from the Emperour and the people their right in the election tooke it all to him selfe The D. denieth this stoutly Secondarily Musculus maketh the disorders off electioÌ„s by chusinge vnmeete persons or by corruption throwghe giftes or parciall fauour to beginne then especially when the election taken from the people cam into the bishoppe of Rome and his suffragans handes The D. cleane contrary that thes disorders were especially in the elections by the people and beste auoided when the election is called to the will and becke off one bishoppe Thirdly Musc maketh yt an vnlawfull forme off election when yt is made of the prince but maister D. saith that yt is in the princes powre to make election off ministers him selfe if he will or committe yt to others iff he liste Fourthly Musc helpinge him selfe off the authoritie off Ierome saith that there was no election in poperie becawse they were made without the knowledge off the people and condemneth also the election of the bishopes made by the Canons for the same cause But M. D. saith yt is a moste conuenient and sufficient election which notwithstandinge in that poincte is all one with the election in poperie Last off all wherin lieth a great weight of this controuersie he dooth not saie simply that this forme off choise by the church is vnmeete and inconuenient for this age off he churche but that it coulde not be by and by and out of hand restored and after a litle that it could not be in al churches by and by restored Wherby he gyuethe to vnderstand that in some places yt might be forthwith restored and in other all men owght endeuour to bringe yt in againe withall coÌ„uenient speed So appeareth that although Musculus be pretended yet Pigghius and Hosius be his storers Here cometh to shewe the manner off the election off the Tigurine churche wheron the D. heareth hym selfe so much vvhich as Bullinger whom he cyteth for his author reporteth is this After he had shewed that in all lawfull ministeries off the worde there is required that with innocencie of life he shoulde be learned then chosen accordinge to the worde off God thirdly after he is chosen and presented to the church haue imposition of handes he addeth Heruppon the Tigurine church hauinge taken her leaue off the inordinate ordination off the popishe bishoppe chuseth off the learned and off the ministers off the Senators and off the councell off the 220. that is to saie off the common people vvhich out off the learnedest and honestest deacons should present certeine that are to bee made Bishoppes vnto the Senate and people Off vvhich vvhen the Senate and people haue chosen one they sende him vnto the church ouer vvhich he is set and vvith him a counseiller vvhich doth commend him vnto his church Then the cheifest off the bishoppes off that citie or other place vvhere this nevve bishop muste be maketh a Sermon and in publike praier made off the church in this behalfe layinge on his handes commendeth the church vnto him Wherin howe many thinges are fauouringe our cause and openly fighting against the D. vppon that I haue before noted of the election of the churches of Berne I leaue to be considered ALthowghe the D. as his vse is speaketh off one thinge so often and that in the same diuision and with spaces put betwene so that yt is harde to giue answer with any conuenient vnderstandinge off the reader yet I will as well as I can referre his scattered sayinges to certeine heades Wheroff the firste is that he did not meane to proue by thes places off Timothe and Titus that the election belonged vnto one man Wheruppon he chargeth me with willfull deprauinge off his answer Yt muste be therfore considered if we maie holde this wett eele by the mouthe The Adm. saithe in the primitiue church no minister vvas placed in the congregation but by consente off the people but novve that authoritie is giuen to the bishoppes handes alone the D. answereth by the place off Timothe and Titus Now this beinge a commaundement and by his iudgement both directed onely to Tim. and Tit. and to them as bishoppes yt followeth
as the worde off God remaineth if all men in the worlde woulde absolue them But let vs heare whether they be repriued by the iudgemente of these churches or whether they giue any pardon which gaue the condemnation There followeth that they allovve better off the harmeles symplicitie off some then off the exquisite learning off others ioyned vvithe pride And worthily For nether can pride agree withe manners off the minister off God and harmles symplicitie maie well agree with a competent learninge meete for that function In the ende they conclude that they reiecte not the good symplicitie of certein so they be not altogether vnskilful off God and his vvorde Firste this can make nothinge for excuse off our mynisters For when they are to learne their Catechisme and the principles off Christian Religion what knowledge is left vnto them off God and off his worde Then yt is like that by harmles symplicitie they meane some rare and singular holines wherby they goo as farre beyond the other in life as they come behinde them in learninge whiche all see to be otherwise in our ignorante ministers oftentimes the maisters off misrule to all the parishe Otherwise they knewe what Ierome saithe that in that S. Paule requireth that a bishop shoulde be vvise he barreth those vvhich vnder the name off symplicitie excuse the folie off mynisters Laste off all by that skill off God and off his worde they muste needes vnderstande suche giftes as are necessarie for a shepherd to feede his flocke whiche is habilitie to teache to exhorte to conuince the aduersarie and if he haue those althoughe he haue not the knowledge off tounges and artes in the name off God let him haue the chaire And suche I confesse our churche hathe had and hathe some but they are very rare and off thes I doubte not but the confession meaneth Nether can they be withowte manifeste iniurie thowghte to receiue those whiche they had before condemned for shall wee saie off them that with one mouthe yea with one breathe they blewe whout and kolde wheruppon I conclude that the condemnation beinge heere greater then the pardon and the wound wider then the plaister yow were verie neere driuen when yow were compelled to vse the testimonie off thes churches to couer the nakednes off the ignorante mynisters ▪ your notable slaunder off the Adm. I am contente shall as yow saie reste in the readers iudgmente That I haue gathered yowr argumente faithfully towchinge the learninge off Catechismes is shewed before There foloweth the 2. diuis the first being a blank where beside the causes by him assigned of want off able Ministers be to no pourpose considering that we shewe there can be no cause off instituting a reading ministery and be also owt off place considering that he shoulde haue opposed them to those which I alledged in that behalf that which onely was materiall that we be in cause off that fewnes is onely saied Where I alledged owt off S. Paul that yt is an expresse commaundement that a pastor should be able to teach and conuince gaynsayers and therfore to be broken vpon no occasion he answereth that S. Paul sheweth the qualities off a pastor but saieth not that we may not haue reading Pastors if there be none or not a sufficient nombre in whom all those qualities concur Then which what can be more bluntly saied For this being a generall rule he owght to haue shewed where the Lord gyueth leaue to take vnteaching mynisters contrary vnto the tenor off this commaundement which he is neuer able to doo For the scripture commaunding the pastors should be able to teach and conuince doth forthwith shutowt all other it being a generall rule that it both commaundeth the contrary off that it forbiddeth and forbiddeth the contrary off that yt commaundeth And there is no commaundement in the scripture which may not be eluded by the D. answer For thus yt may be sayed that we may haue images in churches to teach the ignorant for that although the lord forbid them yet he hath not saied that where there are none or not a sufficient numbre off able teachers we may not haue such supplies Those also which pressed with extreame hunger seeke remedy in stealing finde him their proctor For the lord hath not saied in so many wordes that one which is hungerbitten may not steale as much as will saue his life But when all commaundementes be generall in the scripture albeit they haue not alwaies the vniuersall note off All or None onles there be some exception declared this off the sufficiency off the pastor being not onely vniuersall but vniuersally propounded is better armed against all thes fond cauils For our sauiour declaring that euery one instructed as a scribe vnto the kingdome off God owght to be prouided aforehand with store off doctrine and iudgement to apply yt according to the present occasion doth gyue manifestly to vnderstand that no one may be receiued into the order off pastors which is not able to teach his flocke And the D. may as well say that in default of sober chast and quiet pastors they may chuse dronckards whoremongers swashbucklers as that in default off a teaching pastor they may take vnteaching Yea rather may he say the one then the other cōsidering that sobriety chastitie and quietnes are commen with him to all Christians but abilitie to teach and confute are his proper duties Therfore although thes be both vntollerable yet the church receiueth les harme by pastors which infected with 〈◊〉 doo teach then by them which free from thes are vtterly vnable to teach For the good life off the pastor withowt doctrine wherby they may be both tawght to put their trust in god and see the good workes they should follow is as a faire coulor withowt light to shewe yt by vtterly vnprofitable where the word truly preached shineth oftentimes clearer in the heartes then the clowde of the pastors disordered life cā stay the fruict of And albeit all commaundementes off God are such as may not for any cause be broken yet this S. Paul gyueth off the Pastor hath a speciall fense cast abowt yt wherby it might be kept in greater safety For the spirit of God foreseing this shamefull prophanation off the ministery together with the present daunger vnto the church vseth a preface to this description of the pastors office vsed rarely and but in matters of greatest stablenes saying yt is a certein doctrine As if he should say that which foloweth is an vnuariable and vnchangeable rule which can by no autoritie of men for any cause not onely be brokē but not so much as bowed or once vvrinched a side His reason that Paul was glad those preached which swarued frō that rule beside that I haue shewed it ridiculous is here owt of place cōsidering that thes readers which would haue rēt his heart in peeces being ordeined with breach off the rule off
honour and gaine in Archbishoprickes bishoprickes and other such poisons off the ministery is oftentimes beaten backe by dispaire that they shall not atteine to that gaine which desired as they thincke off many can be obteined but off few He that is willing his sonne should serue in the estate off a Minister and looketh with a more single eye to the continuence off true religion vnto his posterity yet when he considereth how fewe liuinges there be those excepted wherwith he will not haue his sonne desiled able to mainteine the pastor with his competent howsehold honestly he applieth hym to an other trade of life Wheroff although occasion be gyuen by horrible vnthankefullnes off men which in steed off gyuing some thing into the treasury off the churche haue by their pillage browght her almoste to starck beggery yet that parent shoulde consider that the lord will neuer leaue nor forsake his and that gould and syluer is the Lordes Which seing he fournished to those that in symplicity sought the building off his howse owt off the cofres off heathen Princes he will much les suffer them to want necessaries vnder godly and Christian But this place is plentifully handled in the foresaide booke off discâ—pâ—â—ne I onely because the question was heere off the cause off wâ—nting sufficient pastors towched yt Heere the D. light estimation off the churches saluation and off preaching is notably discouered before he saied that thes reading pastors were taken for necessity now he teacheth that â—f there were sufficient pastors to supply the roumes yet the readers should kepe their places still Yf ye aske why lest forsooth they with their families should goe a begging Heere a whole church is sould for 30 peeces off siluer or rather as I may say for ould shooes For the D. weighing in his skiles whether yt is better that the church should vvant a preaching pastor vvhom God hath ordeined the principall instrument to saue his church by or that the reader vvith his familie should goe a begging hath found the sowlehealth off a whole church farr lighter then the bodely coÌ„modity of one reader with his familie Where he saith yt seemeth that I vvould haue the minister renant at will or by courtesie it is an vntrue surmise For I complaine that thes reading Ministers were not onely placed vntill other might be gotten but had a free hould wherby the sheep are not onely committed to the woulf but the doore sparred also vpon them Where he asketh for the place in which Augustine calleth them woulues that teach not if he haue not the vvord vvoulf yet he speaketh to that effect when vpon the place off Ezechiel I haue gyuen the a vvatchman c. he proueth that he which holdeth his peace murthereth Which also euen the Pope himselfe as loÌ„g as there was but a sparcke of true knowledge confesseth Yf the D. say that his meÌ„ hold not their peace because they reade it is a cauill vnworthy answer As though when the Prophet calleth the rascall ministers off his time domme dogges and suche as could not not barcke his meaning vvere to charge them that they could not spell or reade in a booke off their owne language laied before them And so I trust appeareth that this taile off reading ministers owght to be cut of and that they are none off these princely giftes which our Sauiour Christ ascended into heauen sendeth vnto his church but the bishops to speake no grieuous lier off them more then beggerly presentes But we are not yet at an end For that which the D. can not get in comparing a preaching pastor with a keading he thincketh to obtein in comparing reading with preaching wherunto perremeth his 13 Tract First he mainteineth his vntrue accusation off the Adm. to wching their condemning off reading off scriptures Which in comparing the wordes alledged by the D. with those of the Ad. in ould time the vvord vvas preached novv it is supposed sufficient iff it be redd I commit vnto the readers iudgement And if his vnhonest realing were not euident there because off an other sentence off the Adm. subiect vnto reprehension yet he laieth yt open in the same behauiour to wardes me For althowgh I haue not a word against reading and diuers commendations of yt yet he feareth not with full throat to accuse me as a despiser off reading off the scriptures as companion off the Papistes vngodlines in that behalff Which although he doo often yet further then his reasons gyue occasion he shall neuer gaine off me that I will vouchesafe him a word off answer to all this owtcries After vpon that I say yf I may call hym mynister that can doo nothing but reade which is as indifferent to gyue him the name off a mynister as to take it from him being left betweene bothe the D. according to his ould equity concludeth that I signifie and that plainely how I esteme them for no ministers Which he likewise gathereth for that I say as they call them Wherin I will not deny but there may be occasion gyuen to hym especially that hunteth after yt off that surmise But my meaning was to note how vnworthy they are as off the office so off the name off a Minister off the gospell not to make voide their mynistery such as it is in administration off the Sacramentes which I confesse as in the Popish Preistes baptisme for that they be the publicke officers appointed therunto althowgh vnduely ministred to be the holy Sacramentes off Christ And that this was my meaning might easely haue bene gathered in that I allowing off the administration of Sacramentes by Heretickes so much worse then they as as it is to teach falsely then not to teach at all could by no equall interpretation be iudged to condemne the Sacramentes ministred by them Where I say that albeit the D. cavvse in this point be good that the reading off the scriptures is profitable yet as one be pitched he defileth yt in euill handling he answereth as though I confessed that I misliked the matter well handled onely for that yt was doone by hym which is a shameles vntruth Bucers sentence reading is a kinde off preaching I thincke will not be found and I dowbt not but the D. would haue brought yt if there had bene any So he is destitute off his good autoritie and withall remaineth the absurditie before assigned The sentence set downe owt off Bucer is altogether idle seing the profit off reading the scriptures both publickely and priuately is confessed Where to proue that reading is not so effectual as preaching I alledge S. Paul that one can not beleeue vvithovvt a preacher he answereth that by preaching there is ment all kinde off publishing the gospell by owtward voice but off reason off this exposition ether owt off scripture or any other more then his owne I say he bringeth not a lettre For that he addeth off taking away
this testimonie of Epiphanius And further saith of Wickleue that therfore he tooke away the difference betwene bishop and elder because he could not obteine the bishoprick of Worcester and in an other booke inueigheth sharplie against them for that they would haue neither Pope nor primate nor Archbishop nor Bishop And that yt may yet appeare euen to the simple reader that they had the same cause against Pigghius and the Papistes which we against the D. I offer to his consideration besides the two flat testimonies of M Barnes aÌ„d Hooper before cyted M. Wickleues tenthe article in thes wordes Ther be 12 disciples of Antichrist Popes Cardinalles Patriarckes Archbishopes Bishops Archedeacons Officials Deanes Monkes Chanons Fryers and Pardoners If the D. say that Wickleue spake that not off the offices but off their abuse in popery that shift will not serue coÌ„sidering that he leaueth owt priestes and Deacons Wherof the priest especially doing more mischeife then diuerse which are reckened yet because he occupied the place off the pastor in euery congregacion which was the ordinance off God and was onely a deprauacion and deformitie off the trew ministerie he spareth him the other because they were deuised partlie herbingers to prepare his way partly purucâ—ers to interteine his estate he marked with the black cole off Antichristianitie Yf yt be further said that Wickleue should by this meanes condemne the estate off a bishop vvhich S. Paule alloweth off yt is manifest that he bet against the lord bishop which ruleth ouer other ministers in adiocese coÌ„sidering that he leaueth the priest the deformitie of the teaching minister which minister is all one as hath bene shewed with S. Paules Bishop Beside this reason they may as well saye he spake not against the office off Pope Chanons Monkes Friars Pardoners but onely against the abuse which is absurde This to the learned may better appeare by Pigghius discourse which confesseth that the Waldenses and Wickleue left the ordeâ— off priesthode as they call yt and that the whole question betwene them was not whether lord bishops and Archbishops did their dutie but whether they were lawfull estates Wherby appearethe that whosoeuer was the D. marchant these wares come from one off the filthiest puddels off popery and withall that as sone almost as there was any set and apparant estate of the churche which proclaimed open warre against Antichrist the letters off defiaunce were as well sent against the Archbishop and longehanded bishop as against the Pope Luther also after them writethe thus Bishops vvhersoeuer they be in all the vvorlde are equall to our bishops or parishe ministers and preachers of none caÌ„ yt be said one is lord an other a seruant they are off the same iudgement and vvhatsoeuer belongethe to the churche equally belongeth to all except that vvhich Paule teacheth some preacher or Christian may be off a sounder faith then other haue greater giftes then another interprete the scripture better then an other rule better then an other preache better and haue the discretion off spirites more then an other c. hovvbeit suche giftes cause no inequalitie or lordship in the church Here I will also set downe the iudgement off the reformed churches in Heluetia Zurich Berne Geneua Polonia Hungery Scotland c. who hauing reckened the ministries specified in scriptures add in the times follovving ther vvere many other titles off ministers brovvght into the churche For some vvere ordeined Patriarckes some Archbishops other Suffraganes also metropolitanes Archelders c. but for all those vve passe not ether vvhat they vvere in times past or are novv the Apostels doctrine of the ministers is sufficient for vs. Yf all these churches make no accounte off these offices not onely as they are now but when they were at the best if they esteme them withowt the doctrine of the Apostles I leaue to the readers iudgement what estimacion they had off them and how the D. woulde abuse vs that drawethe the sentences of the cheif in this coÌ„fession to proue their conuenieÌ„ce Neither do I dowbt but that our Archebishops and Bishops refusing to ioyne with the rest off the churches in this confession did it because they could not digest this morsell especiall Now to come to the D. that saith Epiphanius calleth vs heretickes which pinchethe vs. master Wickleue and the pore Waldenses bare yt at Pigghius hand we must do yt at the D. in dede so muche more pinching as yt commethe from him from whom yt least owght But what remedy the Lord will looke to it in time Howbeit because this arrow is as yt is said of Epiphanius a man subiecte to error shot owt off Pigghius bow one giuen vpp to error hauing no heade off the worde of God to make yt enter yt may peraduenture raise the skin but wounde yt can not make But Augustine reckenethe yt so but Augustine reporteth what he found written for towching his owne iudgement he is flat against Epiphanius which maketh a bishop aÌ„d an elder differ by the Apostels institution wheras Augustin as I haue shewed teacheth euen as Ierome that this difference was not by the word of God but by custome now I would know of the D. how Augustin can houlde that for an heresie which to leaue the rest can not be conuinced by the word off God but onely by a custome off the churche And here first he must either let goe his hould of Ierome or this of Epiphanius For if yt be trw that Epiphanius houldeth that a bishop and an elder differ by the Apostels institution then it is false which Ierome and others hould that they were all one at the first and that the difference came by custome Contrariwise if Ierome in that point say true as in dede he dothe then Epiphanius authoritie falleth Secondly yf the D. will preiudice this cause for that Epiphanius a Catholike thowght them to differ by the word off God where Aerius an heretike thowght them all one or els in that Augustin reckeneth that amongest his heresies by the same reason he must preiudice this trwthe that we owght not to praie or make any oblation for the dead For both Epiphan estemed him an heretike for his iudgement in that behalfe and Augustin reporteth this as one off his heresies which is catholike doctrine So that Pigghius might vse this autoritie better which condemnethe as well the one as the other then the D. which houldethe as I thincke for Catholike that which Aerius the hereticke affirmed and for hereticall which Epiphanius the Catholike condemned The flower off Epiphanius reasons browght before is answered now the D. distressed bringeth forth tag aÌ„d rag for towching Epiphanius saying the bishop by imposition off handes begetteth fathers 1. teachers to the churche vvhere the priestes begate onely sonnes yt is but asking off that in question when Aerius holding them both one by Gods institution the imposition off handes belonging vnto the bishop muste
councell as appeareth by his precise denying off it to be in that canon vvhere otherwise he would haue saied in that Councell it appeareth that he vseth lesse synceritie in thes holy matters then the Heathen â—n their prophane For Alexander counseilled to set vpon Darius in the night answered that he vvould not steale the victorie but the D. concealeth from his reader euen that which he knew my answer must needes discouer Where he saith our metropolitan calleth Synodes althowgh not prouinciall and propoundeth the matters first is nothing to the purpose for calling onely diocesan Synodes he doth nothing which a simple bishop may not aswell as he â–ª and therfore no cause vvhy there should be an archbishop in this respect Secondly all know that those Synodes he speaketh off are houlden for the moste pate by deputies at his appointement So that vvhich the D. vtterly condemneth in the Discipline vve propounde touching the chusing off a president euery Synod is doen here and that at the plrasure off one man not by consente off the mynisters yea by appointement off one for the moste parte no Ecclesiasticall person in matters perteining to the ministrie Thirdly I would know by what right the archbishop may call his diocesan Synodes â–ª yf by Ecclesiasticall then vvhy not also the Prouinciall considering that they are of one kinde ether both Ecclesiasticall or both cyuill Yf he do yt by ciuill autoritie vvhy doth he not aswel vvaite for the magistrates commandement in one as in the other He saith the archishops office consisting in sondry other thinges besides calling Synodes propounding matters ouerseing the limites owght not to ceasse althowgh he doo none off these Yt being manifeste that these were the cheife cawses vnder pretence wheroff he was browght in and especially to thend that controuersies and contentions amongest the mynistrie by Synodes called and ordered by him might he ended yt must follow that if wee may spare him for these we may easely be with owt him for the rest and so this is not for the amendement but for the ouerthrow off his surisoiction Because wee agree in the matter and I haue before shewed that the metropolitanes were appointed to ouersee that none passed his boundes I omit the iniury he dothe in supposing that I send him to the ninth Canon for that matter when as the word there by all indifferency owght rather to be referred to the councell in the text then to the canon in the margent Where I say that this ouersight off limites may be withowt an archbishop he sayth yt may be beste by him whereoff let the reader vpon the former allegations off both Sydes iudge where he affirmeth yt no good argument againste the archbishop that he doth not kepe the olde Canons owt off vse with vs seing our archbishop houldeth off those in times past and hath for his cheifest defense that there where archbishops in times paste all see if there be not the same causes off them now that were then how at the least this hould is throwne downe Where I shew that our archbishop in giuing licences to preach in a dousen dioceses at the leaste breaketh the same order for the keping vvheroff he vvas ordeined he answereth yt is profitable Where beside the vntruth before shewed he condemneth that order off the Councell off Constantinople that decreed against that wandring and ouerthroweth one off the cawses wheruppon the metropolitans office standeth That parte off the difference of the metropolitan from other bishops rose off the commoditie off the citie and for that yt vvas honoured vvith the Emperours courte is manifest by the encrease and decrease lifting vp and throwing downe off the authoritie off the Patriarch all seates That the Emperour might make the metropolitan seate which he would I well vnderstood seing I set it downe before but the question to where yt is meetest the Archbishop should be if there must be one And my reason was forsomuche as the place moste fyttest hath well and happely wanted him therfore our churche may be well without him His trifling in the two translations argueth that to fill vp he careth not if his reader peele strawes for nothing â—ether off them is againste that I setdowne The cauil against my order becawse I come from the councel of Antioche backe to Cyprian is too simple For yt is not as his for one matter but for diuers beside that I reprehended him for that yt skilleth much to obserue the order off times when question was off the time and antiquitie of tharchbishop Whether Cyprians wordes do flatly forbid any one bishop to haue autoritie ouer an other muche les ouer all I leaue yt be iudged off that before likewise how honeste an exception yt is againste this sentence that yt was spoken in a Councell where an error was decreed also in what sense I called Cyprian metropolitan further how vntrwe yt is that he which denieth the autoritie of one bishop ouer an other exempteth the ministers either from cyuill or ecclesiasticall subiection or punishement Lastly what a cauil yt is that when the correction of the disorders in the ministrie is gyuen to the cyuill magistrat the prince therby is ouercharged Now if the reader finde vpon the discourse before that the churche well gouerned in Cyprians time had no archbishop nor metrapolitane that had autoritie ouer others when there was moste neede considering there was then no christian bishops Then yt is manifeste that there is now les cawse when wee haue a Christian magistrate which alledged here by me the D. him selfe althowgh he had good will to bite at durst not come neere His cauill that I alledged this canon falsely attributed vnto the Apostels is answered beside that I shew that yt being falsely assigned to them is notwithstanding the true canon off the Councell off Antioche The Canon is as I haue alledged nothing nether added nor diminished which might disaduaÌ„tage the D. cause any â—ote whether the bishop according to that canon may doo that which apperteineth vnto his owne parish without the archbishop whether the archishop taketh matters owt off their handes concludeth them not making the bishops prime contrary to the tenure off that canon which the D. denieth I leaue to the readers iudgement his especially which hath seene the marchandise and trafique off his courtes And it may partly appeare by the boke off the 7â— archbishops where Canterbury is made the head off all our churches all bishops svvorne to canonicall obedience off that archbishop and defense off all Priuiledges and liberties of that seate â–ª Where the bishop off London is his deane to cal synodes to publishe his decrees to make retourne off th execution VVinchester his Chauncelour Lincolne his vice chancelour Salisburie his chanter VVorcester his chaplaine Rochester his cros bearer when that bagage was Wher his autoritie is said to haue no certeine boundes but almost as
before yt came into the church off the Christians yt vvas as diuers other corruptions taken off them by imitation whether a thirde and more higher cawse theroff were that the brauery of the pourpled vvhore of Rome might bothe easelier take her seate and faster houlde yt vvhilest other bishops vvere made somevvhat sutable vnto her vvhich she could not haue done if other bishops left in the simplicitie vvherin God had apointed them she had bene as an ovvle amoÌ„gest the reste of the birdes I say whether these three are amongest the causes off bringing in the bishops pompe into the churche I leaue to the readers iudgement Considering that the D. beside begging and dissembling the matter which I goo abowte to proue hathe nothing That Christians might aswel be thowght to haue folowed Maximinus in building churches as in sufficiently prouiding for the ministers ys to simple seing we deny hym not sufficient prouision But if he esteme nothing sufficient onles he be mainteined as a lord let him learn off S. Paul what is sufficient and so he shal I doubt not fall from his 1000. to a 100. vnto thes three causes off the bishoplike statelines I will heer ad the fourth worthy to be obserued M. Bucer shewing the incommodities which came by that the bishops vvere receiued to bear ciuill offices saith after they began to occupie the place off princes they chalenged also to them selues their pompe and brauery So let the reader iudg how trw yt ys that I said that our archbishops bishops c. besides the names haue almost nothing commenvvith those of elder times and hovv if the old bishops vvere aliue they vvould not knovv one annother For that they vvould thinke ours princes and ours vvoulde esteme them as hedge priÌ„estes What I allow off the oulde Canons and what I disalow althowgh he dissemble yet he knoweth better then he would I hauing at large declared yt in this Tractate The first diuis I oâ—â—it In the next to that the Apostle called the Corint to a moâ—â—rate estimacion of the ministers meane betvveen contempt and to much exalting them vpon occasion that the false Apostels were to much lifted vp he saith yt was a partial affection to wardes their teachers not in respect off any title which is friuolous for if it be denied generally that they shoulde not be so mounted then the way is stopped against titles and offices and other meanes whatsoeuer wherby that may grow Beside that the D. is afraied as appeareth by his answer to be browght vnto a moderation and meane betvvene contempt and excessiue estimacion Where I shew that as the false Apostels pompe in preaching lifting them vp aboue the faithfull ministers caused the faithful ministers to be contemned so the pompe of our bishops lifted vp aboue the rest off the pastors to be a ready vvay to bringe their mynisterie ovvt off credit and that as that gaue occasion to the Corinthes to saie I houlde off suche a teacher c. so this giueth occasion to say I vvil beleue my Lord Bishop or my lord Archbishop vvhatsoeuer our parson say for they be vvise men and learned I say to all this beside wandring and vnlikely slaunders there is not a word seing I trust it appearethe to all that we giue no occasion by any pompe that the people in magnifying off vs should condemne others The next diuision I leaue to the reader Where against the D. slaunder off the Admonitions intent to take away princes I shewed that his practise against vs is the same vvith the Pharisies against our Sauiour Christ vvhich being rubbed for their ambition accused him as no friend off Cesar He answerethe that we are not Christ which is ridiculous that the case is not like whereof let the reader iudge seing he is as they were honour pricked Whether our Archbishop dvvell as far asonder almost from the ciuil magistrate as Rome and Ierusalem let the reader iudge off that alledged likewise what a coÌ„ning stargaser the D. is which saw in the star off my forehead that the admonition intended the ouerthrow off the ciuill magistrate The nexte off the canon off Antioche Councel is answered but where I shew that that Canon is not like to be iustifiable considering that it sovvght falsely â—â—edite off the name off the apostels he answereth not Onles this be his answer that yt is the naturall Canon off the apostels And in deede his wordes so sound for thus he saithe That canon off the Apostels is repeated in this councel as diuers off the Nice be repeated off other councels Which how shamfully yt is spoken may appeare off that we haue before disputed off the antiquitie off the metropolitane How dangerously to the ouerthrow off our faithe whilest we are borne in hand that there be canons of the Apostels not coÌ„teined in the canonicall scripture al that haue iudgement may vnderstand and yt is in parte before declared I omit that yt is cleane contrary to his doctrine off the archbishop wherby he maketh him an officer changeable at the wil of the Prince For if that be thApostles Canon there is no ministery in the holde scripture which hathe better euidence for an vnchangeable perpetuitie then yt That M. Bucer is wholy for vs in this point I refer the reader to that before written The place alledged here would haue made litle for him if he had not kepte his custome For where Bucer speaketh off obedience to be gyuen by the bishops to the metropolitan he hath left owt these wordes after their maner By vvhich conning he may proue the Acthiopian afaire man because he hath white teeth For all see that M. Bucer by these wordes delaied the autoritie off the metropolitanship And if they were not plaine enowgh yet others in the same place are that the patriarches vvere set ouer the metropolitanes as they ouer the bisho â–ª but that nether could doe any thing saue onely admonish those ouer vvhoÌ„ they vvere set aÌ„d if they obeied not to complaine of them to the synod After he condemneth that the Patriarches toke vnto them the ordination off the bishops nigh them and by meanes therof by litle and litle gat some iurisdiction ouer those bishopes and their churches So appeareth that if there be any difference here touching these offices betwene vs and M. Bucer yt is onely that where we affirme yt good that the presidentship should be chosen at euery meeting as that which cometh neerer the apostels example and more safe against Tyranny M â–ª Bucer may seem to make yt a standing and continuall office set â—â— in one man For as towching his autority wherin the chief poinct off the controuersie lieth yt findeth as smal grace with M Bucer as with vs. Whatsoeuer is here is answered sauing the contrarietie assigned betwen this an Apostle vvas aboue an Euangelist and that there was chiefrie euen amongest the apostels in that one labored more and