Seniors Therefore this reason of yours is no reason at all but maketh directly against you if it be well considered Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 142. Sect. 3. 4. Againe if S. Paule did charge the persecuted and therefore poore churches with the finding and prouiding for the Seniors in euery Church as it appeareth in y t Epistle to Timothie where 1. Epistle 5. he sayth that Elders which rule well are woorthy double honoure whereby he signifieth a plentifull reward and such as may be fully sufficient for them and their housholds as when he biddeth that the widdow which serued the Church in attending vpon the sicke and vppon the strangers should be honoured that is haue that wherewith she might honestly and soberly liue if I say S. Paule would charge the churches then with mainteyning the Elders whiche being poore were The question is not of the abilirie to find Seni ors but of the necesti ie of ha ing them not sometimes able to liue without some releefe from the Churche bycause they were compelled oftentimes to leaue their owne affayres to wait of the affaires of the Church howe much more ought there now to be Seniors when the churches be in peace and therefore not so poore when there may be chosen such for the most part throughout the real e as are able to liue without charging the Church any whit as the practise of these days doth manifestly declare And if S. Paule that was so desirous to haue the Gospel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is free and without charges as muche as is possible and soloth to lay any burthen vpon the churches especially those whiche were poore did notwithstanding enioyne the maintenance of the Elders vnto the churches poore and persecuted how much more shall we thinke that his mind was that the churches which liue in peace and are rich and may haue this office without charge ought to receiue this order of auncients Io. Whitgifte This is a poore and féeble reason the Churche founde Seniors in the time of persecution Ergo there ought rather to be Seniors vnder a Christian prince than in the time of persecution Or this the Church is now better able to finde Seniors Ergo it ought now rather to be gouerned by Seniors You may make the same reasons also for wydowes and diaconisses and as well induce the necessitie of them But we aske not what the Church was able to do then or what it is able to do now but whether the same gouernment ought to be now that was then and whether a Christian magistrate haue no more authoritie in the gouernmēt of y e Church now than the heathenish and persecuting magistrate had then Although if you consider the abilitie of some Parishes and the vnwillingnesse of other some you shall find that they be hardly able or willing to finde a fit Pastor muche lesse would they be able or willing to fynde a number of Seniors besydes their Pastor The place of S. Paule 1. Tim. 5. is vntruly alledged for your purpose for the Apostle meaneth of the Minister in euery congregation and not of any number of Seniors as I haue before declared Neither haue yon one place of Scripture to warrant your interpretation or application of that place God hath much better prouided for his church by placing in it ciuill and Christiā God hath prouided better for his church by giuyng chri stian magistrates then by Seniors magistrats whose authoritie is so ample large than by placing Seniors wherfore where Christian magistrates be the gouernment of Seniors is superfluous and the Church may not be burdened with vnnecessarie and vnprofitable charges neyther may the authoritie which God hath giuen to the Christian magistrate be writhen out of his hand by a rude companie of Seniors in seuerall parishes Chap. 2. the tenth Diuision T. C. Pag. 142. the laste lyne c. Moreouer those that belearned knowe that the gouernment of the Churche which was in the Apostles times being partly in respect of the people that had to do in the elections other things popular partly in respect of the Pastors and Auncients Aristocratical that is the rule of the best I say they know that these gouernmentes doe easyly decline into their contraries and by reason therof both the gouernment of those which were most vertuous might easily be changed into the gouernment of few of the richest or of greatest power and the popular estate might easily passe to a confused tumult Now this incōmoditie were they more subiect vnto vnder a tyrant than vnder a godlie prince For they had no ciuile magistrate which might correct and reforme those declinings when they happened For the tyrants did not know of it and if they hav knowne of it they would haue bene glad to see the churches goe to wracke therfore now we haue a godlie ciuil magistrate which both will and oughte to remedie suche declinations and conuersions of good gouernment into euill it followeth that this estate and gouernment by Auncients is rather to be vsed vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant Io. Whitgifte Those that be learned know that the gouernment of the church is neither populare nor The gouernment of the church monar chicall Aristocratical ▪ as it is before declared where you haue affirmed the lyke but a Monarchie For in euery particular church where there is a christian Magistrate he is chiefe and principall ouer the rest and you your selfe confesse that the Pastor is the chiefe of the Seigniorie whiche ought not to be if the state were eyther Popular or Aristocraticall Of the vniuersall churche onely Christ is the head and chief and therfore the state of it is Monarchicall But of the state and kinde of gouernmente of Tract 8. the church in euery kingdome or prouince I haue particularly and at large spoken in the treatise of Archbishops I shal not néed to will the Reader once againe to marke how you bend your force against a Monarchie For your principle is that the gouernment of the common wealthe C. T. bendeth his force against a monarchie must be framed according to the gouernment of the churche And therfore it maye not be a kingdome but rather a Popular estate or Aristocraticall bicause the gouernment of the Churche as you say is so But be it as you woulde haue it what then Forsooth it maye easylyer decline from a popular estate to a confused tumulte and from an Aristocratical state to the gouernmente of a fewe when there is no Christian Magistrate than when there is a Christian magistrate therefore it is more meete for the gouernmente of the Churche to be populare or Aristocraticall vnder a Christian Magistrate than vnder a tyrant Fyrste I deny your argument as béeing voyde of all sense and reason Secondly I saye that no Christian Magistrate is bound to suffer in his dominion so manie seueral and distinct kindes of gouernment and to
bycause the Churche was then vnder Persecution doth both diminishe increase y e number of professors the Crosse therefore fewe in comparison embraced the Gospell for sodde I say bycause notwithstanding the number of true professors doe increase rather than diminishe in the time of persecution yet is it not so with hypocrites and dissemblers who would séeme to professe the Gospell and whom also we must count professors bycause we sée not their hartes This is manifest by this example In the time of King Edward when the Gospell was in prosperitie how many was there in London that séemed to be earnest and zealous professors of the same but when the time of persecution came vnder Quéens Marie what became of that number howe fewe was there then in comparison doe you not thinke that if God should send a triall there would be founde in that citie many false brethren Moreouer in the time of prosperitie true Christians may without daunger shew themselues and remaine in their cities though the number be neuer so great but in the time of persecution they are dispersed into sundry places We may learne in the. 8. of the Actes that the Churche wholy remayned at Ierusalem vntill that persecution wherin Paule was a doer and that then they were dispersed shall we not then say that at Ierusalem the number of Christians by reason of persecution were few in comparison True it is that this dispersing was the cause why the Church of Christ was more enlarged yet in the meane time was the number of Christians at Ierusalem meruelously diminished Thus then you maye vnderstande if you please that this is a good reason to say the Church was then in persecution and therefore very few incomparison that embraced the Gospell both in the respect of the visible Church generally and also in respect of the same Churche particularly in euery ceuntrey or citie And yet it is true that Sanguis Martyrum est semen Ecclesiae The bloud of Martyrs is the seede of the Churche but that séede must haue time to grow in and I speake of the externall professors of the Gospell That which you write to ouerthrow my words touching the kéeping together and often méeting of such Churches as be persecuted confirmeth my meaning for I saye they kept together in the time of persecution and you affirme the same wherevpon I also conclude that therfore one of them must of necessitie be well knowne to another And althoughe our assemblies in time of prosperitie be peraduenture as frequent as Conference in the time of per secution is a cause of better knowing one another theirs is or rather more frequent yet haue we not such occasion to conferre one with another or to consider one another or to knowe one another as they haue for they then admitte none into their societie at their méetings but such as are knowen to be brethren and of whose Religion and zeale they haue good tryall And I thinke that those which haue béen exercised eyther in Fraunce or elsewhere in any suche time of persecutiō know this to be true that they know none so throughly or are acquainted with none so intirely as with such who haue béen with them in the time of persecution You would fayne if you coulde confute a knowne truth and a manifest thing for who would denie but that such as kepe together in the time of persecution muste of necessitie be knowne among themselues and beste iudge who is fittest among them for any function Chap. 6. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect. 3. Secondly in the Apostles time all or the most that were Christians The church now full of Hypocrits c. were vertuous and godly and suche as dyd sincerely professe the worde and therfore the election of their pastour might safely be committed to them nowe the Church is ful of Hypocrites dissemblers drunkardes whoremongers c. so that if anye election were committed to them they woulde be sure to take one lyke to themselues T. C. Page 34. Sect. I. To your second difference I answere that in deede there be Hypocrites in our Churches now and so were there then but more nowe than then I graunt you that also but there is no greate daunger in them as touching the election of the minister or Bishop for that in such open and publike actions that come into the eyes of all men there is no good man will doe so sincerely so holily as they will doe although it be fainedly The hurt that they doe is in closer and secreter matters But where you say our Churches are full of drunkards and whoremongers besides that you vtter or euer you be aware how euill successe the preaching of the Gospell hath had here for want of discipline and good Ecclesiasticall gouernmenie you bewraye a greate ignorance For althoughe a A daungerous assertion tending to the doctrine of the Anabaptistes there be Hypocrites which beare the face of godly men in the churche whose wickednesse is onely knowne to God and therefore can not be discouered by men yet in * the churches of Christ there be no drunkardes nor whoremongers at least which are knowne For eyther vpon Admonition of the Churche they repent and so are neyther drunkardes nor whoremongers or else they are cutte off by excommunication if they continue stubberne in their synnes and so are none of the Churche and therefore haue nothing to doe in the election of the Minister of the Churche And me thinketh you shoulde not haue bene ignorant of this that although there be tares in the floure of the Church which are lyke the wheate and therefore being grounde easily meeteth together Mat. 13. in the loafe yet there are no acornes which are bread for swine And although there be goat s amongst the flocke of the Churche bycause they haue some likelyhoode with the sheepe feedyng as Mat. 25. they doe giuing milke as they doe yet in the Churche of Christ there are no swine nor hogges it pertaineth to God onely to seuer the tares from the wheate and the goates from the sheepe but the Churches can discerne betwene wheate and acornes betwene swine and sheepe Io. Whitgifte There be not onely Hypocrites which deale syncerely in nothing no not in publyke actions but there be such also as be corrupt both in Religion and life who woulde no doubte be as corrupt in elections if they might haue to doe therein as they are in other matters In saying that the Church is now ful of Hypocrites drunkards whoremongers Drunkards whoremōgers in the visible churche c. I derogate no more from the good successe that the preaching of the Gospell hath had than the lyke or greater faultes dyd from the same in the Churche of Corinthe and Galatia The Churche is a net that gathereth together of all kinde of fyshe Mat. 13. it is a fielde wherein the deuill soweth tares as fast as the
as not to omitte the least would not be so carelesse for this Church vnder the Gospell as to omit the greatest Io. Whitgifte Tract 2. cap. 6 diuis 3. I tolde you before that this which you call the perfection of the Synagogue was rather a burthen than a perfection for God therfore prescribed vnto them a prescript forme of externall things that it mighte be a meanes to kéepe them from further inconuenience but to vs in such things he hath lefte a greater libertie and the perfection of the Church doth not consist in outward appearance but in spirituall giftes and therin hath the Lorde muche more plentifully and gratiou ly shewed his care for the Church vnder the Gospell than he did for it vnder the lawe Touching externall orders both of ceremonies and gouernment he hath lefte the disposition therof to his Church in many things as I haue proued in the beginning of Tract 2. this booke Chap. 4. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Page 92. Sect. 6. And where he saith that there was then which was called high priest and was ouer all the rest he did well knowe that y e cause thereof was (*) This was one cause but not the only cause bicause he was a figure of Christ and did represent vnto the people the chieftie and superioritie of our Sauiour Christ which was to come and that our amour Christ being come there is now no cause why there should be any suche preheminence giuen vnto one and further that it is vnlawfull that there should be any such (a) A Popishe non sequitur vnlesse it be lawfull to haue one head Byshop ouer all the Churche for it is knowne that that priest was the head priest ouer all the whole Church which was during his time vnto our Sauiour Christ. Io. Whitgifte The high priest was a figure of Christ so was Dauid and Salomon but yet was the high priest also appointed to gouerne other for order and pollicie and so was Dauid and Salomon The figure is taken a way and the kinde of Sacrifice but the office of gouerning remaineth still and is to be obserued as the state of the Church requireth Christ being come the office of sacrificing ceaseth but not the office of gouerning for Christ by his comming did not take away gouernment and pollicie no notfrom the 〈◊〉 state This reason of yours that that priest was the head priest ouer all the Church therefore if by A popish reason vsed by the Replyer his example we will haue an Archbyshop he must be such a one as shall gouerne the whole church is in déede a plaine confirmation of the Papistes reason for y e supremacie who thinke that they may reason in lik maner But I answere you as M. Caluine answereth thē Lib. inst cap. 8. Sect. 87. There is no reason that compelleth to extende that vnto the whole Caluine worlde which was profitable in one nation nay rather there is a great diuersitie betwixt one nation and the whole world Bicause the Iewes were compassed in on euerie side with Idolaters least they should be withdrawen through the varietie of Religion God did place the seat of his worship in the middest of the earth there he appoynted ouer them one prelate whom all should looke vpon that they might the better be conteined in vnitie Now when as true Religion is dispersed through out the whole worlde who dothe not see it to be absurde that the gouernment of both the East VVest should be giuen to one it is like as if one would say bycause one precincte of grounde hath not many gouernours therefore the whole world ought to be ruled of one president or gouernour I knowe that he maketh another answere likewise euen the same that you haue borrowed of him touching the figure but his first answere is more direct in my opinion And M. Nowell against Dorman reasoning as you do giueth him this answere Nowell It agreeth very wel with the estate of the Iewes that as they beyng one natiō had one chiefe Lib. 1. 63. Priest so is it good likewise that euery Christian nation haue their chiefe Priest or Byshop It agreeth not that bicause the Iewes one nation had one high Priest to gouerne them in doubtes therfore all nations through the world should haue one high priest ouer al other for not only the vnlikelyhood betwene these two but the impossibili ie of the latter is most euident Other learned men also ther be as Hyp rius Lib. 3 Method Theolog d uers others who answering this same argument of the Papists say that by it we may well proue that one Archbishop or Metropolitane maye gouerne one Prouince or one kyngdome but that it is to weake to proue that one Pope may gouerne all t e world Now be it you had rather giue strength to the aduersarie than lacke argumentes to the defense of your cause Chap. 4. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Line 1. And as for those titles chiefe of the Synagogue chiefe of the s nctuarie chiefe of the house of God I say that that maketh much against Archbishops Archbeacons for when as in steade of the Synagogue of the sanc uarie and of the house of God or tempee are come part cular churches and congregations by this reason it foloweth that there should be some ch f not in euery prouince or dioesse but in euery congreg tion in deed so ought there to be cer ain chief in euer congregation which should gouerne and rule the rest And as for the chief of the families of the Leuites chiefe of the families of the priests the same was obserued in all other tribes of Israell and by all these Princes ouer euery tribe nd fam le as by the Prince of the whole l nde God did as it were by diuers liuely pictures imprint in their vnderstanding the chiet ie and domination of our Sauiour Christe Besides this the order which was appointed in this poynt was obserued in all the tribes Io. Whitgifte These titles be as glorious as any that are now remaining in our church And my The Replye slippeth by the matter L. of Sarum speaketh o names to the which you do not answere one word but s k out other matter to blind the Reader with ▪ least he should beholde your follie But I will follow you You s y that in steade of the Syn gogues c. are come particular Churches and congregations c. and I say vnto you that they had thē particular Synagogues as well as we haue now particular Ch rches the whiche you your sel e in ffect haue confessed before And yo must vnderstand that one Christian common weale is but Pag. 22. line 1. one Church as it was among the I wes th rfore such offices of gouernment may be such in the Church as was 〈◊〉 the Iewes and such superioritie among ministers as was then amongst
if I do not who hath taught you to speake vntruly my woordes I haue expressed lette the Reader consider of them and here also take a note of your truth and honestie Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. Afterwardes he sayeth that for so much as this place hath bene vsed to proue a Pastor or Bi hop in euery churche therefore it cannot be vsed to proue these Elders so that sayeth he there must needes be eyther a contradiction or else a falsification The place is rightly alleaged for both he one and the other and yet neyther contradiction to themselues nor falsification of the place but onely a miste before M. Doctors eyes which will not let him see a playne and euident truth which is the worde Elder is generall and comprehendeth both those Elders which teach and gouerne and those which gouerne onely as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule Io. Whitgifte If it had these two significations as I haue proued that it hath not yet that it is so taken in the. 14. of the Actes I cannot reade in any writer and I haue shewed M. Caluines and M. Brentius iudgements to the contrary whiche in any wise mans opinion are able to counteruayle your credite and bare deniall And surely in that place it cannot be taken but in one and the selfe same signification except you will say that the spirit of God speaketh ambiguously and vseth aequiuocations Which were to derogate much from the simplicitie and plainenesse of the Scriptures Wherefore the Authors of the Admonition in alleaging that text in some place to proue the election of Pastors and in some other place to proue the office of Seniors speake they know not what and dally with the Scriptures euen as you do in like manner when you take vpon you the defense of so manifest a contradiction Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 114. Sect. 1. In the. 1. Corin. 12. S. Paule sayeth that God hath ordeyned in the Go rnours in the church Church first Apostles then Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the giftes of healing helpers gouernours diuersities of tongues here is not one worde of the office of Seniors neyther yet of their names for this worde gouernours teacheth vs that Christ hath ordeyned in his church some to beare rule gouerne but whether one in euery congregation or moe whether ministers of the worde or other whether Magistrates or Seniors it is not here expressed howsoeuer it is it maketh nothing for your purpose T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the place of the Corinths may be vnderstanded of ciuill 1. Co. 12. Magistrates of preaching ministers of gouernours of the (*) A manif st vntruthe for there is no such thing affir ed. whole Churche and not of euery particular Churche and finally any thing rather than that whereof it is in dee e vnderstanded I say first that he still stumbleth at one stone whiche is that he can not put a difference betweene the Churche and common wealth and so betweene the Churche offycers whiche he there speaketh of and the offycers of the common wealth those whiche are cclesiasticall and those whiche are ciuill Then that he meaneth not the minister whiche preacheth it may appeare for that he had noted them before in the worde teachers and last of all he can not meane gouernour of the whole Church onlesse he shoulde meane Pope if he will say he meaneth an Archbishop which gouerneth a whole Prouince besides that it is a bolde speeche without all warrant I haue shewed before that the worde of God alloweth of no suche office and therefore it remayneth that it muste be vnderstanded of this office of Elders Io. Whitgifte Héere haue you manyfestly fals yed my booke and greatly abused me For I haue not these wordes of gouernours of the whole Church and not of euery particular Churche neyther any thing sounding that way the Reader hath my wordes before his eyes let him consider whether you haue reported them truely or no. Surely if there were nothing else your ofte leasings might sufficiently conuince your doctrine of méere vanitie and forgerie But to returne to your Replie First I can not put any suche difference betwixte the Churche and a Christian common wealth the Church officers and christian Magistrates that they may not be comprehended vnder this worde vsed in this place by the Apostle For I vtterly renounce that distinction inuented by Papistes and maynteyned by you whiche is that Christian The Papists opinion of christian Magistrates Magistrates doe gouerne not in the respect they be Christians but in the respecte they be men and that they gouerne Christians not in that they be Christians but in that they be men Whiche is to giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in the Church of Christ than to the great Turke I am fully persuaded therefore that there is no suche distinction betwixte the Churche of Christ and a Christian common wealthe as you and the Papistes dreame of And therefore there is no cause why th Apostl maye not in this place vnder this worde Gouernours comprehende as well ciuill Magistrates as ecclesiasticall The whiche notwithstanding I doe not determinately affirme as likewise I haue not done in myne Answere for I would be glad to learne and to heare some reason to the contrarie Master Gualter seemeth to auour this opinion for expounding this place he sayth He comprehendeth seuenthly Gualter in Cor. 12. in this order gouernours vnder whome are conteyned ciuill persons whiche in worldly matters dyd ayde all men and had the hearing of causes if any fell out amongst the Christians And a little after There is no neede of suche publikely nowe a dayes seeing there are christian Magistrats by whose authoritie all these thinges may be better prouided for Moreouer the Apostle may meane in that place Bishops or Pastors of whome he made no mention before For you will not haue the office of a Pastor of a Doctor confounded wherefore you forget your selfe in saying that in this worde teachers he meaneth the minister that teacheth that is the Pastor for of him I am sure you meane Last of all I haue no where sayde that he meaneth one gouernour of the whole Church neyther haue I written one worde tending to that ende but this I say agayne whether the Apostle meaneth one ruler in euery congregation or mo is not héere determined and I sée no cause as I haue sayde whye in this place of th Apostle thys word Gouernours may not eyther signifie the Christian Magistrates o Ecclesiasticall as Archbishops Bishops or whatsoeuer other by lawfull authoritie are appoynted in the Churche neyther is there any reason to be shewed why he shoulde rather meane your Seniors than any other Magistrates Sure I am that there be learned men whiche thinke that the Apostle in this worde dothe comprehende Ecclesiae
poynte wherein the question especially lyeth whiche is whether this function be perpetuall and ought to remayne alwayes in the Churche And it is to be obserued by the waye that whereas there are dyuers sorts of aduersaries to this discipline o the Church M. Doctor is amongst the worste For there be that saye that thys order maye be vsed or not vsed nowe at the lybertie of the Churches But M. Doctor sayth that thys order is not for these times but onely for those tymes when there were no Christian Magistrates and so dothe flatly pynche at those Churches whiche hauing Christian Magistrates yet notwithstanding reteyne this order still Io. Whitgifte I say so still and I am able to defende my saying agaynst al that you haue shewed to the contrarie And yet do I not pinche at any Church that vseth it if there be any such so that they haue the consent of the ciuill Magistrate who may if he will depart from his right abridge himself of the authoritie cōmitted vnto him by God But he néede not so do except he list and whether it be wel done or no I will not determine this I am well assured of that in a Monarchie in a kingdome such as this Realme of England is it can not be practised without vntollerable contention extreme confusion except you could deuise to make euery seueral parish a kingdome within it selfe and exempt it from all ecclestastical ciuill iurisdiction of Prince Prelate whomsoeuer which vndoubtedly may séeme to be your séeking as will appeare hereafter Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. vlt. Pag. 140. Sect. 1. And to the ende that the vanitie of this distinction which is that there ought to be Seniors or Auncients in the times of persecution not of peace vnder tyrants not vnder christian Magistrates may appeare the cause why these Seniors or auncients were appoynted in the Church is to be considered which must needes be graunted to be for that the Pastor not beeing able to ouersee al himself to haue his eyes in euery corner of the church places where y e Churches abode might be helped of the Auncients Wherin the wonderful loue of God towardes his churche doth manifestly appeare that for the greater assurance of the saluation of his did not content himselfe to appoynt one onely ourseer of euery churche but many ouer euery churche And therefore seeing that the Pastor is nowe in the tyme of peace and vnder a christian Magistrate not able to ouersee al himselfe nor his eyes can not be in euery place of the parish present to beholde the behauiour of the people it followeth that as well nowe as in the tyme of persecution as wel vnder a christian Prince as vnder a tyrant the office of an Auncient or Senior is required Onlesse you will say that God hath lesse care of his church in the time of peace and vnder a godly magistrate than he hath in the time of persecution and vnder a tyrante Io. Whitgifte I say there may be Seniors in the time of persecution when there is no christian Magistrate not that there ought of necessitie to be God hath prouided the ciuill Magistrate and other gonernours to punishe and to correct vice and other disorders in the Church who hath his officers and deputies in euery place for that purpose neyther may the Pastor or any other to whome that charge is not committed by the ciuill magistrate vsurpe that office vnto them selues Wherefore that cause by you alleaged is no cause at all why there should be any suche Seniors where there are christian Magistrates neyther is that kinde of gouernment any parte of the Pastors charge The Pastor if he be a méete man is able to o al that that is required of a Pastor else might it be sayd which you before denied that God appoynted offices functiōs and gaue not sufficient gifts to execute do them Neyther can it be sayd that God hath esse care of his Church when he placeth ciuill and Christian Magistrates in the stead of Seniors than when he placeth Seniors and leaueth it destitute of Christian Mastrates For one of the most ingular benefites that God bestoweth on his Churche in this worlde is that he giueth vnto it christian Kings Princes from whose office and authoritie whosoeuer doth detract and withdrawe we any thing iniurieth the ordinance of God and sheweth him selfe vnthankfull for so great a benefite Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 140. Sect. 1. In deede if so be the Auncientes in the time of persecution vnder a tyrant had medled with any office of a magistrate or had supplied the roome of a godly magistrate in handling of any of those things whych belonged vnto him then there had bene some cause why a godly magistrate beeing i the churche the office of the Senior or at the least so muche as he exercised of the office of a magistrate should haue ceased But when as the auncient neyther dyd nor by any maner might meddle with those things which belonged vnto a magistrate no more vnder a tyrante than vnder a godly magistrate there is no reason why the magistrate entring into the churche the elder shoulde be therefore thrust out (*) Where finde you this in all the scriptures For the Elders office was to admonish seuerally those that did amisse to comforte those which he sawe weake and shaking and to haue neede of comforte to assist the Pastor in ecclesiasticall censures of reprehensions sharper or mylder as the faultes required also to assiste in the suspentions from the supper of the Lorde vntill some triall were had of the repentance of that partie which had confessed him self to haue offended or else if he remayned stubborne to assist him in the excommunication These were those things which the Elder dyd which for so muche as they may do as well vnder a christian magistrate as vnder a tyrant as well in the time of peace as in the time of persecution it followeth that as touching the office of Elders there is no distinctiō in the times of peace and persecution of a christian Prince and of a tyrant Io. Whitgifte I would gladly know by what place of scripture you can i stifie this office that you The office ascri ed to Seniors 〈◊〉 the gistrate o his authoriti in ecclesiasticall matters héere appoynt vnto Seniors In so weightie a matter in my iudgement you shoulde haue done well to haue vsed some authoritie of scripture or other auncient wryter The Admonition sayth that the office of Seniors was to gouerne the Church with the rest of the ministers to consult to admo sh to correct to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Which if it be true I pray you what authoritie remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall and Churche matters In d ede if you make such a distinction betwixt the Church
the cōmon wealth the ci ill Magistrate the ecclesiasticall as you do throughout your whole booke it is no mar ell though you thinke No more authoriti 〈◊〉 ed to a ch istian Magistrate tha t the Turke the office of Seniors to be perpetuall For you giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall gouernment thā you would do to the Turke if you were vnder him And therfore according to your platforme the gouernment of the Church is all one vnder a christian Magistrate and vnder the great Turke But to l aue the Admonition what haue you spoken of the office of Seniors which is not eyther proper to the Pastor or cōmon to all Christians or such as may be much better brought to passe by the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate than by the ignorance simplicitie and rudenesse of the most of your Seniors But first let vs heare more of your 〈◊〉 before we come to vtter the absurditie of your cause Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 140. in the midst But I will yet come nearer That without the which the principall offices of charitie cannot be exercised is necessarie and alwayes to be kept in the Churche but the office of Auncients Elders are such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised therfore it followeth that this office is necessarie That the principal offices of charitie cannot be exercised without this order of Auncients it may appeare for that he which hath faulted and amēdeth not after he be admonished once pri ately and then before one witnesse or two cānot further be proceeded against Math. 18. according to the commaundement of our sauiour Christ onlesse there be in the Church Auncients d Elders therfore this principal office of charitie which tendeth to the amendment of him which hath not pr̄ofited by those two former admonitions can not be exercised without them For it is commaunded of our sauiour Christ that in such a case when a brother doth not proffite by these two warnings it should be tolde the Church Now I would aske who be ment by the Church heere if he say by the Church are ment al y e people then I will aske how a man can conueniently complayn to all the whole congregation or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of this matter I do not denie but the people haue an interest in the excommunication as shal be noted hereafter bu the matter is not so farre come for he must first refuse to obey the admonition of the Church or euer they can proceede so farre Wel if it be not the people that be ment by the Church who is it I heare M. Doctor say it is the Pastor but if he will say so speake so straungely he must warrant it with some other places of scripture where the Church is takē for one which is as much to say as one man is many one member is a body one alone is a companie And besides this strangenesse of speech it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our sauiour Christ and destroyeth the soueraintie of the medicine which our sauiour Christ prepared for such a festred sore as would neyther be healed with priu te admonition neyther w t admonition before one or two witnesses For as y e fault groweth so our sauior Christ would haue the nūber of those before whō he shuld be checked rebuked likewise grow Therfore from a priuate admonition he riseth vnto the admonitian before two or three from thē to the church which if we should say it is but one then to a dangerouser wound should be layd an easier plaster therfore our sauiour doth not rise from two to one for that were not to rise but to fall nor to proceede but to go backwarde but to many Seeing then that the church here is neyther the whole congregation nor the pastor alone it followeth that by the churche here he meaneth the pastor with the Auncients or Elders Or else whom can he meane And as for this maner of speech wherin by the church is vnderstanded the chiefe gouernours and Elders of the church it is oftentimes vsed in the olde Testament from the which our sauiour borrowed this maner of speaking as in Exodus it is sayd that Moses wrought his miracles before y e 4. chap. people when mention is made before onely of the Elders of the people whome Moses had called togither And most manifestly in Iosue where it is sayd that he that killed a man at vnwates shall 0. chap. returne vnto the citie vntill he stand before the congregation to be iudged Where by the congregation he meaneth the gouernours of the congregation for it did not appertayne to all to iudge of this case Likewise in the Cronicles and diuers other places nd therefore I conclude that for so 1. li. 13. cha muche as those be necessarie and perpetuall which are spoken of in those words tell the Churche and that vnder those words are comprehended the Elders or Auncients that the Elders auncients be necessarie and perpetuall officers in the churche Io. Whitgifte Héere are many words without matter a great thing pretended to no purpose for the principal offices of charitie both hath bin may be wel exercised without your Seniors Dic ecclesiae interpreted the place Mat. 18. doth in no respect proue the contrarie For it only teacheth an order howe to procéede charitably in priuate offences not in publike as I haue shewed before Moreouer to tel the Church is eyther publikly to reproue those that haue bin priuately in that maner admonished wil not repent or else to complayne vnto such as haue authoritie in the Churche according to that which I sayde before of this place in my Answere to y e Admonition And héerein you ioyne with me in that you take the Church there for the chief gouernours of the Church though we differ in y e persōs Church for the gouernors of the church For you will haue it onely ment of the Pastor Seniors and I thinke it signifieth more generally any which are lawfully appoynted to gouerne the church But whether it be one or more that hath this authoritie committed vnto him it is more to tell him than it is to tell twentie besides because he béeing in authoritie doth beare the office of a publike Magistrate who hath power publikely to correct that whiche was priuately cōmitted and therfore he that telleth one suche may wel be sayd to tell the Church bicause he telleth such a one as hath authoritie in the Church and is a publike person So that he riseth from priuate admonition to open complaint from priuate witnesses to a publike Magistrate and therfore this is to rise not to fal to procede not to goe backwarde But admit that mo than one is vnderstanded by the name of the Church whiche I also confesse yet doth it
with you in like maner say where doth any man charge them with so saying yet doth the same necessarily follow vpō their reason They say not the gouernment of a fewe of the best but of a companie which signifieth many and why should not this argument be good if the gouernment of a fewe godly men be better than the gouernment of one bicause one is easier ouerthrowne by bribing than moe then is also the gouernment of many godly men better than the gouernment of a few bicause a few may sooner be corrupted than many and consequently by the same reason the moe that gouerne the better This reason you haue glaunced by and not touched and yet it enforceth a manyfest absurditie agaynst the Authors of the Admonition For it is too absurde to saye that a Popular estate is the best state neyther will any affirme it but those which woulde be Popular You are neuer able to shew eyther by Diuinitie or Philosophie that there are moe There are no more lawfull kinds of gouernmēt than three lawfull kindes of gouernment than thrée that is Democraticall Aristocratical and Monarchicall and of these bothe the Scripture and Philosophie alloweth of the Monarchie as simply the best The gouernment of this kingdome is a right and true Monarchie Neither do you The gouernment of thys realme a true Monarchie know what a Monarchie is when you call it a mixt estate for that is called a Monarchie where the chiefe care and gouernment of the common wealth is committed to one as it is in this kingdome in euery respect Chap. 2. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 1. It is sufficient nowe to admonish you that although it be graunted that the gouernment of 〈◊〉 be the best in the common wealth yet it can not be in the Church for the Prince may wel be Monarche immediatly betweene God and the common wealth but no man can be Monarch betweene God and his Church but Christ which is the onely head thereof Therfore the Monarchie ouer the whole Church and ouer euery particular Churche and ouer euery singular member in the Church is in Christ alone Io. Whitgifte If you meane of the vniversall Churche onely Christ is the head neyther hath he Christ the only head of hys vniuersall church any Uicegerent to supply that vniuersall care ouer the whole Churche But if you speake of particular Churches as the Churche of Englande the Churche of Denmarke c. then as the Prince is chiefe gouernour and head of the common wealthe The Prince head of a particular church vnder God so is he of the Churche likewise For it is certayne that the christian Magistrate vnder Christ hath as great authoritie as the Magistrate had vnder y e law But then the ciuill Magistrates had chiefe authoritie bothe in matters of the common wealth and of the Churche also as héereafter it shall more playnely appeare therefore the Magistrate ought to haue the same nowe in like maner T. C. doth but T. C. glaunceth at the magistrate glaunce at the Magistrate bicause he dare not speake playnly but suche licentious spéeches thoughe voyde of all reason and grounde may peraduenture sinke déeper into the heart of the subiects especially of the Papist who hathe already conceyued the same opinion of the ciuill Magistrate than will be rooted out in shorte time so carefull are these men in procuring to the Prince due obedience and so faythfull are they in maynteyning hir authoritie according to their othe and duetie Chap. 2. the. 22. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 114. Sect. 2. Pag. 132. Sect. 3. Both the names offices of Seniors were extinguished before Ambrose tyme as he himselfe dothe testifie writing vpon the fifth of the fyrst to Timothie In deede as Ambrose sayth writing vpon the fyfth of the fyrst to Timothie The Synagogue and after the Church had Seniors vvithout vvhose counsell nothing vvas done in the Churche but that was before hys time and before there was any christian Magistrates or any Churche established T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 2. Last of al (*) Vntrue for it is not alleaged for that 〈◊〉 to proue that there ought to be no Seniors in the church vnder a christian Prince he citeth Ambrose authoritie both in the. 114. and. 132. pages which sayth that the Synagogue or Church of the Iewes and after that the Church of the Christians had Seniors without whose counsel nothing was done in the Church whervpon he concludeth that for as much as they were not in Ambrose time therefore they were not vnder a christian Prince Io. Whitgifte This is most vntrue I alleage not Ambrose in eyther of those places to proue that Seniors ought not to be vnder a christian Prince as the Reader may vnderstande euidently by my words Only I confesse that there was Seniors and I alleage Ambrose partly for that purpose partly to shewe that both their names and offices were extinguished before his time no man liuing can gather any other sense out of my words Wherfore that conclusion vpon Ambrose wordes is yours it is not myne and I am sory that malice hath throwne you so déepe into y e pit of vntruth that you can not be gotten out of it No cloake or shadow can couer this deformitie of yours Chap. 2. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 2. And heere M. Doctor hathe in one sentence proclaymed bothe his great ignorance in the whole storie of the Church and withall cyther a maruelous abusion and 〈◊〉 him selfe to be mislead by some vnaduised prompter or subtile foxe that thought to deceyue him or else a notable cuill conscience whych wrastleth agaynst the truthe His ignorance dothe appeare partly in that he sayththat bicause there were no Seniors in Ambrose Church and in those Churches about him therefore there was none at all but most manifestly in that he sayth for so muche as there were no Seniors in Ambrose time therfore there was none vnder a christian Prince as though there were not many yeres before Ambrose time christian Emperours when as betweene the time of S. Ambrose beeing Bishop the time of Philip the sonne of Gordias the first christian Emperour there is more than 150. yeres and betwene the time of Constantine the Emperour and the time of Ambrose beeing Bishop there be aboue 80. yeres And if M. Doctor had euer read the Ecclesiasticall stories he mought haue (*) An vntruthe else name your stories found easily the Eldership moste florishing in Constantines time and other times when as the peace of the Christians was greatest Io. Whitgifte Except it were to set fóorth your owne knowledge to leaue a publike testimonie of your great humilitie and modestie you would not so immodestly accuse M. Doctor of ignorance though you had cōuinced him of it as you neyther haue done nor are able to do in that that he professeth Likewise except your selfe vsed prompters patched your
so notable a peece of vvork consisteth of tvvo false principles and rotten pillers vvhereof the one is that vvee must of necessitie haue the same kynde of gouernment that vvas in the Apostles tyme and is expressed in the scriptures and no other the other is that vve may not in any vvise or in any consideratiō reteyne in the Church any thing that hath bin abused vnder the Pope if these tvvo postes be vveake yea rotten as I haue proued them to be in this my Defense then must the building of necessitie fall Touching the first it is to be vnderstanded that there is a double gouernment of the Church the one spirituall the other externall Christ onlie and none other by the operation of his spirite and directiō of his vvord spiritually gouerneth his Church and reignyng in the conscienees of the faithfull guydeth their myndes in all matters of deuotion faith and holynesse and this is the spirituall kingdome of Christ so much spoken of in the scriptures and speciallie in the Prophets of this kynde of gouernment I meane not The externall gouernment hath both a substance and a matter about vvhich it is occupied and also a forme to atteyne the same consisting in certaine offices and functions and in the names and titles of them the substance and matter of gouernment must in deede be takē out of the vvord of God and cōsisteth in these pointes that the vvorde be trulie taught the sacramentes rightlie administred vertue furthered vice repressed and the Church kept in quietnes and order The offices in the Church vvhereby this gouernment is vvrought be not namely and particularelie expressed in the scriptures but in some pointes left to the discretion and libertie of the Church to be disposed according to the state of tymes places persons as I haue further declared in my Ansvvere and Defense follovving Of the secōd principle I haue also spoken at large there so that I shall not neede to trouble the Reader any further in these matters The proofes that T. C. vseth in this his Replie are grounded onlie vpō vntrue allegations and interpretations of the scriptures vaine and childishe reasons falsifying the authorities of Doctors other vvriters vntrulie ascribing that vnto them vvhich they vvrote not as shall be euidētlie declared in this Defense by the grace of God and surelie I haue not redde many bookes vvherein so many grosse vntruthes are to be found or vvherein there is so manye manifest argumentes vttered to proue the ignoraunce of the author and lacke of reading auncient and learned vvryters Touching his manner of vvriting I shal not neede to say much for any mā of iudgemēt that readeth his book may easilie perceiue vvith vvhat hautines of mynde vvhat contempt disdayne of others in vvhat sclaundrous and opprobrious manner it is vvritten hovve oft doth he repeate M. Doctor in contēpt either of the degree or of the person 370. times is the leaste vvhat other speaches of disdaine and reproche doth he vtter but I do nothing at all maruayle at it for I consider it hath bene the vsuall practise of sectaries and disquieters of Aug. lib. 1. contra Donatist the Church It is true that S. Augustine sayeth lib. 1. contra Donatist cap. 11. Nulli schismata facerent si fraterno odio non excaecarentur None would make schismes if they were not blinded with hatred of their brethren And againe An non est in schismate odium fraternum quis hoc dixerit cum origo pertinacia schismatis nulla sit alia nisi odium fraternum Is there not hatred of brethren in schismes who would saye so seeing that the beginning and continuaunce of schisme proceedeth from no other cause than from hatred of our brethren I must therefore saye vvith M. Zuinglius Scio quibus conuitijs quantis furoribus illorum Lib. de Baptis hic me exponam I knowe to what reproches and to howe greate rages of theirs I make my self subiect And I vvill conclude vvith him Quamuis miris conuitijs nos perstringere Eodem nouis quotidie clamoribus morderenō des a ̄t c. Although they maruelouselie slaūder vs and daylye with newe clamors reuile and backbite vs yet will I neuer leaue of the defense of the truth before their contumacie be made knowne to all men VVho so peruseth such learned authors as had greate experience of the lyke kynde of men he shall finde that their especiall grace both in speaking and vvriting hath bene in bitter inuectiues against other vvhom they haue enuyed and hated for some speciall causes M. Zuinglius in an Epistle that he vvriteth before his book de Baptismo speaking of the Anabaptistes sayeth thus Hyp critica illorum humilitas illis fatis nota perspecta est qui cum his aliquando sermones contulerunt quà m scilicet sit illorum oratio omni felle amarulentior Their hypocriticall humilitie is verie well knowne to those which haue had cōference with them how that their talk is more bitter than gaule And in his booke de Baptismo he earnestlie protesteth that he neuer found any thing in them quà m saturninam quandam melan holicam ingeniorum contumaciam c. and in his book against Baltasar he sayth that by dispraysing and reuyling others they seeke to wynne credite vnto them selues How this qualitie agreeth vvith some of our men and especiallie vvith the author of this Replie I am content that other men iudge If I my selfe haue in vvryting and in this Defense spoken something more sharpelie it must be imputed to myne infirmitie and yet am I therevnto greatelie prouoked but herein as in manye other matters I submit my selfe to the iudgement of those that haue authoritie to iudge and of those that be learned for I am content still to make this the foote of my song Errare possum haereticus esse nolo To those that be in authoritie I onlie speake as M. Zuinglius did to the magistrates in his time vpon the like occasion Quòd si hoc cuiuis hominū impunè facere licebit In Ecclesiast vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imò resistente etiam vniuersa totius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quà m fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it be lawful for euery man to publish abroade among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne heade before he hath consulted with the church nay against the authoritie of the whole church in short time we shall see moe errors in the church than there be faithfull men and Christians And againe Si enim boc permittamus vt capitosus quisque Lib. de Baptis malè feriatus bomo mox vt nouum aliquid insolens animo suo concepit c. If we suffer euery hedie and braynelesse fellowe so sone as he hath cōceyued any new thing in his mynd to publish
described 118 VVherein the Iewes had a more particular direction than we 117 Iewes had somthing common with the Gentils 321 ¶ Ignorātia Elenchi looke Argumentum ¶ Infirmities in all men 612 ¶ Imposition of handes diuersly taken 198 Imposition of handes 226 Imposition of handes in confirmation allowed by maister Caluin pag. 785 ¶ Inconstancie of T. C. and his com panions 431 ¶ Indifferent things loose the nature of indiffereneie being commaunded 92. 258 In what kind of indifferent thinges we ought to haue respecte to the weake 258 Auncient Fathers of things Indifferent 95. c. Councelles of thinges Indifferent pag. 97. 98 Scriptures of things Indifferent 98 Augustin of things Indiffer 99. c. Caluin of things Indifferēt 109. c. Late writers of things Indifferent pag. 126. c. The doctrine of things Indifferent pag. 278 ¶ Interrogatories to Infāts 6 7. c. Augustine of Interrogatories 608 ¶ The Introite 588 Celestinus his Introite 589 ¶ Iohn his apparell 270 Iohn setteth his name to the Apocalips 807 ¶ Ionathan the Calday paraphraste pag. 718 ¶ The Iudiciall law abrogated 121 The Iudicialles perteyned to the gouernement of the church 119 The Magistrate not bound to the Iu diciall law of Moses 121. c. Iustinian made Ecclesiasticall lawes pag. 699 K ¶ Difference betwixt a king and a Tyrant 377 Christ and his Gospel no enemies to Kingdomes 647 ¶ Kneeling at the cōmuniō 596. c Kneeling the meetest gesture 597 Kneeling at the name of Iesus 741 L ¶ Lawes made must not bee ouerthrowne without strong reasons pag. 686 Lawfull is ordinary in a Church esta blished 38 Difference betwixt the seueritie of the lavve and the lenitie of the Gospell 149 ¶ Lay men teachers in the Church pag. 209. 521 Lay men baptised 518. 519 ¶ Letters commendatorie 141 ¶ The Letany 489. 495. 496. ¶ Leo Archbishop 338 471 ¶ Leuites had to do in ciuill matters pag. 697 ¶ The true libertie of the Church pag. 195. Christian libertie 791 VVhat libertie cannot bee taken away 541 No mans libertie restrayned 542 ¶ Libell what it is 807 Libellers be vnderminers 559 Libelling no true way of reforming pag. 806 The Libellers compared to pharisies pag. 807 ¶ Licence to preach necessarie 255 ¶ Passing Logicke 383 M ¶ Macheuiles 8 0 ¶ Magistrates cuill spoken of by Anabaptists and why 37 Ciuill Magistrates may not take vppon them ecclesiasticall functions pag. 5 Ciuill Magistrate doth not simply differ from the ecclesiasticall by bearing rule 63 No Christian Magistrate in the Apostles time 180 The Magistrate head of the commō wealth but not of the church by T. C. 180 How the Church may be established without a Magistrate 182 The Magistrates authoritie abridged pag. 265. 266 The Magistrate may abridge externall libertie 541 The Papistes opinion of Christian Magistrates 631 No more graunted to the Christian Magistrate than to the Turke 635 The Ciuill Magistrate a better helpe than Seniors 640. 641 The Prince made subiect to Seniors pag. 646 The Magistrate may better reforme offenders than Seniors 643. The ouerthrowe of the Princes authoritie conteyned in the Reply page 646. The authoritie of the Ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters page 694. c. The Prince spoyled of his authoritie 694. The opinion of the Replyer concerning the Princes authoritie 695 VVhat authoritie Papistes gyue to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters 695. Princes haue exercised supreme authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matter page 698 6 9. A wise Prince will take the aduise of the learned in waighty affa es page 6 9. The ciuill Magistrate shut from the gouernment of the Church 78 ¶ Magnificat nunc dimittis 494. c. 496. ¶ Manichees appoynt the Lords day to be fasted 1 2. ¶ Matters cōcerning the solemnization of mariage 723 c. Toyes about mariage 794. ¶ M. Martyrs words peruerted 2 0. ¶ Massemongers may bee ministers page 143. c. ¶ Masters of Colledges their authoritie 397. ¶ Matthias elected extraordinarily page 154. ¶ Meletius Archbyshop of Egipte page 471. ¶ Mercie of God infinite 83. 624. ¶ Messalian heretikes 536. ¶ Metaphores of watchmē shepheardes 22 2 7. ¶ Metropolitane 297. c Metropolitan loke Archbishop ¶ Ministers that cannot preach 251. c. Causes of lacke of able Ministers page 252. Ministers knowne in time paste by apparell 261. c. Ministers hauing no pastorall charg page 216. c. Ministers diffamed not reformed by the Admonitors 36. Ministers reuyled by Anabaptistes and why 37. A man maye offer himselfe to the Ministerie 48. Ministers maye exercise some ciuill iurisdiction 64. 354. 749. c. Election of Ministers 132. c The tryall of Ministers in learning and conuersation 132. VVorthie Ministers in England 1 0 The Minister may be assured of his calling thoughe he be not chosen by the people 194. All Ministers gouerne but not alike page 314. Ministers subiect to Bishops 420 One Minister may not meddle in an other mans charge 803 A Minister may vse corporall punish ment 764 The Minister hindered by whom pag. 484 The Minister not the only mouth of the people 501. c. ¶ More sinceritie in the ministration of the Sacraments nowe than in the auncient Church 526 ¶ Misteries vvhat they be 515 ¶ The gouernment of this Realme Monarchicall 182. 650 A Monarchie and Tiranny confoun ded by T. C. 377 ¶ Modestie of the Replier 351 ¶ The moderators office 395 ¶ Moses wife did circumcise 515 ¶ Monuments of Idolatrie may bee vsed if they be profitable 256 ¶ Mourning apparell 730. 731 A lawfull vnlavvfull vse of mourning apparell 732 ¶ Musculus alleaged for Ierome 203 222. Musculus his reasons vppon the 20. of Mathew 69. c. Musculus his meaning peruerted 193 N ¶ Names of diuers kindes 64 Names common to ciuill and ecclesiasticall persons 64 Names proper to God may in some respect be attributed to other 300 A lawful name may remaine though it hath bene abused 302 How these wordes vos autem non sic may be referred to names 63 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not all one 71 ¶ Diuers significations of this word Necessarie 80 ¶ N ene Creede 589 ¶ Only 2. essentiall notes of the Church 81 ¶ Nouatus and his qualities and the cause of his heresie 74 Nouatus the first that forsooke his ministerie 74 The Nouatian heresie 360 O ¶ Offences giuen to the papistes thorough contention 143 ¶ The opponent should proue 712 ¶ Ordeining of Ministers pertaineth to Bishops 225 c. ¶ Orders of the Church depend not vpon euery mans misliking 86 Generall Orders not lightly to be altered 101 Decrees pertayninge to Order not only humane 107 Decent Orders Gods traditions 606 How the Lordes Order is kept 684 The Order which T. C. prescribeth is full of Inconueniences 173 ¶ The Ordinarie meanes too drawe men from vice 477 ¶ Origen a lay man when hee preached 209 ¶ A grosse Ouersight of T. C. 698
of the Lord should dwel vnder a Tabernacle and therfore desired maruellously that he might buyld the temple vnto the Lord. And seing that the Lord hath graunted vnto them which he denyed vnto his seruāt that they would not be narow and straight in themselues seeing the Lorde openeth the treasures of his goodnesse so largely vnto them That they would set before them the zeale of Zerubbabel who although he had after the returne out of captiuitie abolished idolatrie layde the foundations of the Temple and set vp an aultar vnto God wherevpon the morning and euening sacrifice was dayly made yet being admonished by the Prophete Aggey that God would not be pleased vnlesse the Temple also were fully buylded did all feare of the nations rounde about and other busynesse layde asyde cause it foorthwith and with al possible speede to be made an ende of Finally that it would please them to consider the examples of Iosias Ezechias and Iehoshaphat who are therfore to their euerlasting commendation pr ised of the holie Ghoste for that they made whole and thorough reformations where as the honour of other some albeit they were otherwyse good is stayned and caryeth the marke of their imperfection by this and like exception that although they did suche good things and such * That is they suffred manifest Idolatrie wher with you can by n means 〈◊〉 thi Chur he of Englande and therefore your application 〈◊〉 vnfie yet they left also suche and suche vndoone Io. Whitgifte And why is not hir Maiestie the head of this Churche also as wel as of this common wealth For I must giue thée to vnderstande good Reader that T. C. maketh T. C. ioyneth with the Papistes concerning the authoritie of the ciuil Magistrate in ecclesiastical matt rs the Churche and the cōmon wealth two such distinct and seuerall bodies as must of necessitie haue distinct and seuerall magistrates and gonernors and that the Ciuill magistrate hath not to medle in Ecclesiasticall matters excepte his aide be required by the Pastor and Seigniorie or suche lyke cases wherin he flatly ioyneth with the Papistes who say that the ciuil Magistrate hath only Potestatem facti and not Iuris that is authoritie to execute suche things as they decrée but not authoritie to make any lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters And least you should thinke that I faine this consider the whole scope of his booke and particularly his wordes before mencioned in this leafe where as he accuseth the gouernment of this Church nowe in practise of confusion bycause ciuill matters are handled by Ecclesiasticall persons and Ecclesiasticall Sect. 3. matters by those which be ciuill also that whiche he speaketh of this matter f 144. and Fo. 144. sect 2. 154. and especially that which the second Admonition hath fo 8. 9. 57. 60. I know not Fol. 154. sect 1. 2. 3. howe he coulde haue made a greater difference betwixt the Churche and the cōmon wealth in those places where the Princes be enimies vnto the Church In déed true it is that in the Apostles tyme Princes did not medle in causes Ecclesiastical except it were by persecuting c. For they were then infidels not Christians persecutors not professors And therfore if all ought of necessitie to be reduced to the forme of gouernment vsed in the Apostles time Christian Princes must be deliuered from that care and be content to forgoe that portion of their authoritie But hereof more in the due place this I only here note that you may the better consider the same in the pervsing of his booke The rest of that whiche is conteyned in this parte may haue some vse if it bée rightly applyed for godly princes haue to follow such godly examples and to be diligent in reforming such things as are to be reformed either in substaunce circumstances or persons T. C. Whiche I do not speake as though we had not already by hir Maiestie especially and afterward by their honours hands receiued a singular benefyte but that we hauing the whole myghte haue our hearts and mouthes filled with the praise of God and continue the possessiō of that which we haue which otherwise for our vnthankfull refusall shall be taken away Wherein as we haue especial regard that the name of God should be magnified not by vs alone but by our posteritie vnto the worlds end So it is not the smallest part of our care that hir Maiestie and your honours to whome we are so deepely bound and of whome we haue receiued so singular benefytes of peace and preaching of the Gospell mighte with your successions continue nnd flourish amongst vs for euer But the desire of reformation and feare of Gods heauie wrath to come vpon vs hath carried me further herein than I purposed I will therefore make an end of these points considering that the vntruth of these accusations of newnesse and straungenesse of disorder and confusion of beyng enimie to princes and common wealthes shall better appeare in the discourse of this Booke Io. Whitgifte These be smooth words to win credite by but they agrée not with the rest of your booke wherefore I doubt not but that they will be considered of accordingly I would to God that you did in déede acknowledge that singular benefyte that you haue receiued by hir Maiestie and their honours then truly would you haue shewed yourselfe more thankfull than you haue done neither woulde you haue mainteined libells whiche séeke vtterly to deface all that is done as will manifestly hereafter by further examination appeare Whatsoeuer accusations haue bin made of your doctrine if they be not iustifyed then let the authours of them suffer the shame Surely you haue as slenderly answered these accusations hitherto as may be The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 5. 6. 7. Amongst the offences taken by occasiō of those which preferre the doctrine this is the cheefest that comparison being made betwixt those excellent mē both in vertue and learning which suffered for the testimonie of the truth and betwene vs of the one side Also betwene the Archbyshops Byshops Deanes and Archdeacons which now are and vs on the other side it seemeth vnto many that it is not like to be good which was not found out by those excellent personages and which being now propounded by men of no great shew is eyther misliked or at the least by no open approbation allowed of those which carrie greater countenaunces and be in greater dignities Unto the first although answer is made more at large in this booke yet I will adde thus much that as for my part I coufesse my selfe to be a great deale inferioure vnto the least of them so the omitting of these necessarie things ought to be no more preiudice against them or against those that pret̄erre them than the omitting of the celebration of the feast of Tabernacles so many hundreth yeares by so many good high priests in the raignes of so many good kings was preiudiciall vnto the
is especiall occasion to moue men to prayer to vnitie and to the embracing of the substance of Religion which by all meanes is sought to be ouerthrowne Where preache you them euen where they doe least good and most harme in places where the Gospell hath bene alreadie planted yea and often times in secrete conuenticles and corners which the truth neuer séeketh but vpon extreme necessitie and before whom preache you not before such as haue authoritie to redresse but before the common people who although some of them be godly and sober yet for the most parte be greatly delighted with nouelties loue such scholemaisters as teach libertie and continually inueigh against superiors All this beyng true as you can not denie it to be true there is no cause why you shoulde be offended with the setting downe of the first article To preach the Gospell is a thing necessary vnto saluation to preach that circumcision and suche like ceremonies be not matters of saluation is a necessarie doctrine of the substance of Religiō Zuinglius and Oecolampadius and other differed frō Luther in some matters of substance and yet did they orderly and lawfully with the consent of their Magistrates procéed in these matters wherfore these examples helpe you nothing for the matters you contend for be not of y e same nature neither do you procéede in like maner The same answere may be made to all other like examples that you can vse in these matters But bicause I will not leane onely to mine owne iudgement in this case let it not gréeue you if I set downe M. Zuinglius opinion touching the same who in his booke called Ecclesiastes speaking against the Anabaptistes saith on this sort If they were sent of God endued with the spirit of God they woulde haue Zuingl in ecclesi construed in the best parte these externall things which be not as yet rightly reformed they woulde haue become all things to all men that they might haue wonne all to Christ. c. M. Caluine also in his booke against y e Anabaptists saith that whē vnder the colour of a Caluin aduersus Anabap. zeale of perfectiō we cā beare no imperfectiō either in the body or in the members of the Church it is the deuill which puffeth vs vp with pride and seduceth vs with hypocrisie to make vs forsake Christs flocke Whatsoeuer you alleage for the saluing of your contentious doctrine out of y e. 10. of T. C. vseth the same defense for his contentiō that the Anabaptists do Mathew verse 34. y e same do y e Anabaptists vse for their excuse also as Zuinglius testifieth in his Ecclesiastes his words be these Their doctrine bringeth forth nothing but contention tumults in the defense wherof they alleage that Christ said I came not to sende peace but the sword to whō we answere that this sword hath no place among the faithful Zuing. in ec for it diuideth the faithfull frō infidels but they make contentiō and brawling among the The sworde which Christ sendeth is not betwene the faithfull faithfull that for externall things Hetherto Zuinglius which is a sufficiēt answere to you also vsing y e same excuse mouing cōtentiōs in like maner matters The same sense haue the words of Christ. Luc. 12. ver 49. for the Gospel is a sword that deuideth the faithfull from infidels but not the faithfull among themselues It is the greatest offence to the simple and most worthy of Christian teares and weeping that men shoulde cloake and colour their arrogancie contention and errors with a false pretence of godly zeale for the purytie of fayth the sinceritie of the Gospell and the reformation Bucer in 4. Eph. of the Churche as Maister Bucer in 4. ad Ephe. saith that somedyd euen in his time What you thinke and teach of the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate will appeare hereafter more plainely in some other partes of your booke your additions to your protestation of allowing Magistrates and of your obedience to them may colour your abridging of their authoritie For if they commaunde you any thing wherein you intende not to obey you may say they commaunded not that in the Lorde and that it is against your conscience These exceptiōs or excuses be very general may with you who in all things pretende the worde of God and conscience strayghten the authoritie of the Magistrate to your owne purpose But hereof we shall something more playnely although not fully vnderstande your opinion hereafter The same Protestation that you make it may appeare that the Anabaptistes made also in the beginning as Zuinglius declareth in his Ecclesiastes I. VV. The seconde Article pag. 2. Sect. 2. Secondly they bitterly inueyed agaynst ministers and preachers of the Gospell saying that they were not ordinarily and lawfully Bul. fol. 1. 〈◊〉 18. 87. 102. 244. called to the ministerie bicause they were called by the Magistrate and not by the people that they preached not the Gospel truly that they were Scribes and Pharisies that they had not those thinges which Paule required in a minister 1. Tim. 3. That they did not themselues those things which they taughte vnto other that they had stipends and laboured not and therefore were ministers of the belly that they could not teache truly bicause they had great liuings and liued wealthily and pleasantly that they vsed not their authoritie in excommunication that they attributed to muche vnto the Magistrate T. C. pag. 3. 4. There was neuer Heretike so abhominable but that he had some truthe to cloke his falshode should his vntruthes and blasphemies driue vs from the possession of that whiche he holdeth truely no not the Diuell him selfe saying that God had giuen his Angels charge ouer his can thereby wring this sentence from vs why we should not bothe beleeue it and speake it beeing a necessarie truthe to beleeue and speake You may as well say we are Anabaptistes bycause we say there is but one God as they dyd one Christ as they dyd c. And heere I will giue the Reader a taste of your Logike that you make so muche of in your booke * This is your owne Logike these be arguments of your owne framing The Anabaptistes say that the Churches should choose their ministers and not the Magistrate and you say so therfore you are Anabaptistes or in the way to Anabaptisme The Anabaptistes complayned that the Christians vsed not their authoritie in excommunication and so do you complayne therefore you are Anabaptistes or in the way to them I will not lay to your charge that you haue not learned Aristotles Priorums which sayth it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as often as the meane in any syllogisme is consequent to bothe the extremes But haue you not learned that which Seton or any other halfepeny Logyke telleth you that you can not conclude affirmatiuely in the seconde figure And of thys sorte are
taketh away life nor fire that consumeth the body which I moue vnto but it is the sworde of correction and discipline which may by sundrie other meanes be drawne out than by shedding of bloud That sword of discipline I call for still and say wyth Zuinglius If it be permitted that euery In his Epistle before his booke called Ecclesiastes man may freely defend his errors and spread abrode in the Church false doctrine there wil be more contentions sectes and discorde among Christian Churches than euer there was among Infidels And again If euery man may without controlment preach among the people his own priuate phansie and opinion contrary to the determination and authority of the Church it will shortly come to passe that we shall haue more errors than Christians If I haue accused any man vniustly there is a lawe whervnto I am subiecte but your words are not of that weight neither your defense suche that therefore they please or satisfie wise men bicause you speake them If they can say no more for them selues than you haue sayd for thē then they must remayne still in the same suspicion If there be any iust cause why ye shoulde haue the good abearing agaynst any man if you will come foorthe and orderly require it I am sure you may haue it But oh the mildnesse the patience and the quietnesse of this spirite of yours To the godly Readers grace and peace from God c. TWo treatises ye haue heere ensuing beloued in Christ which ye muste reade without a 1. Thes. 5. 21 Iam. 1. 19. 20 Iam. ▪ 2. 1. parcialitie or blinde affection For otherwyse you shall neither see their meaning nor refrayne your selues from rashly condemning of them without iust cause For certayne men there are of great countenance whiche will not lightly like of them bicause they principally concerne their persons and vniust dealings ▪ whose credite is great and whose friends are many we meane the lordely Lords Archbishops Bishops Suffraganes Deanes Doctors Archdeacons Chauncellours and the rest of that proude generation whose kingdome muste downe holde they neuer so harde b cause their tyrannous Lordship can not stande b Math. 15. 23 Luc. 16. 15. with Christes kingdome And it is the speciall mischiefe of our Englishe Churche and the chiefe cause of backwardnesse and of all breache dissention For they whose authoritie is c Mat 20. 25. 26. Mat. 23. 8. 9 10. Mar. 10. 42. 43. Luc. 22. 15. c. forbidden by Christ wil haue their stroke without their felow seruants yea though vngratiously cruelly and Popelike they take vppon them to d Mat. 24 48 49. beate them and that for their own childish Articles beeing for the most part against the manyfest truthe of God First by experience their rigour hathe too playnely appeared euer since their wicked raigne and specially for the space of these fiue or sixe yeres last past togither Of the enormities whiche with suche rigour they maynteine these treatises do in parte make mention iustly crauing redrèsse thereof But the matters do require a larger discourse Onely the authors of these thoughte it their partes to admonishe you at this time of those inconueniences whiche men seeme not to thinke vpon and whiche without reformation can not but increase further dissention the one parte beeing proude pontificall and tyrannous and the worde of God for the other parte expresse and manifest as if it pleased the state to examine the matters it woulde be euident And woulde to God that free conference in these matters might be had For howsoeuer learned and many they seeme to be they should may in this realme find inowe to match them and shame them too if they holde on as they haue begonne And out of this realme they haue all the best reformed Churches throughout Christendome agaynst them But in a fewe wordes to say what we meane Either muste we haue a right e Math. 9. 37. 38. Ephe. 4. 11. 12. ministerie of God and a right f Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. gouernment of his Churche according to the Scriptures set vp both which we lacke or else there can be no right religion nor yet for contempt thereof can g Pro. 29. 18. Amos. 8. 11. 12. c. Ma. 21. 23. c. 1. Cor. 11. 30 Gods plagues be from vs any while differred And therefore though they linke in togither and sclaunderously charge poore men whome they haue made poore with grieuous faults calling them Puritans worse than the Donatists exasperating setting on such as be inauthoritie agaynst them hauing hitherto miserably handled thē with r uilings ▪ depriuations imprisonments banishments suche like extremities yet is these poore mens cause neuer the h Mat. 10. 16. 26. worse nor these chalengers the better nor God his i Esai 59. 1. hand the further of to linke in with his agaynst them nor you christian brethren must neuer the rather without examination k Exo. 23. 1. 2. Mat. 7. 1. 2. Iam 4. 11. 12 condemne them But thankfully take this taste whiche God by these treatises offereth you and weigh them by the worde of God and do your endeu ur euery man in his l 1. Cor. 5. 20 1. Cor. 7. 27 calling to promote his cause And let vs all with more m Psal. 50. 15. Mat. 7. 7. 1. Tim. 2. 1. 2 earnest prayer than we are wont earnestly commende it to God hys blessing and namely that it will please him by his spirite to lighten the heart of our most gracious Soueraigne and the rest in authoritie to the benefite of his small flocke and the ouerthrowe of their proude enimies that godlinesse may by them proceede in peace and God his glory through Iesus Christ be throughly aduaunced Whiche we call God to witnesse is our onely labour and suite And so presently we leaue you hartily beseeching God to graunt it Amen ¶ An answere to the Preface of the Admonition THese two treatises contayned in this Admonition as they be voyde of sound learning so are they full of blinde affection and stuffed with vncharitable and vnchristian Arrogancie and vnchristian speches of the Libellers termes and phrases Wherfore it is to be feared that they proceede not of loue but of hatred not of zeale but of malice not of humilitie but of arrogancie not of minds desirous to reforme but of stomackes seeking to deforme and confounde that which is in due forme and order by lawfull authoritie established For what charitable zealous and humble spirite would so spitefully and slaunderously speake of their brethren whose doctrine is pure whose zeale is feruent whose suffering for the Gospell hath beene in time of triall comparable with any mans that nowe liueth who haue also paynefully taught the worde of God in this Realme and do at this day and by whose ministerie the Gospell hathe taken roote and is come to that encrease that nowe God be thanked appeareth Surely
obedience but in respecte of the commaundement and worde of God therefore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions that which 1. Tim. 4. S. Paule sayd of meates and drinkes that they are sanctifyed vnto vs by the word of God the same is to be vnderstanded of all things else whatsoeuer we haue the vse of But the place of S. Paule in the. 14. to the Rom. is of all other most cleare where speaking of those things which are called indifferent in the ende he concludeth that whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne but faith is not but in respect of the word of God therfore whatsoeuer is not done by the word of God is sin And if any will saye that S. Paule meaneth there a full persuasion and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that that which he doth is well done I graunt it But from whence can that spring but from fayth and how can we persuade and assure ouresclues that we doe well but whereas we haue the worde o God for our warrant so that the Apostle by a metonunie Subjecti pro adiuncto doth giue to vnderstand from whence the assured persuasion doth spring wherevpon it falleth out that for as much as ma our actions euen ciuill and priuate we ought to follow the direction of the word of God in matters of the Churche which concerne all there may be nothing done but by the word of Go (a) Then haue you heth r to stri ed in vaine Not that we say as you charge vs in these wordes when you say that we say that (b) Holde you here no 〈◊〉 c. may be in the Church except the same be expressed in the word of God but that in making orders ceremonies of the Church it is not lawful to do what men list but they are bound to follow the generall rules of the scripture that are giuen to be the squire wherby those should be squared out Io. Whitgifte When I say that the scriptures containe all things necessary vnto saluation I doe Now scripture 〈◊〉 the direction of all things belonging to the life of man Page 15. not meane that it containeth those things onely neither doe I denie but that the worde of God so containeth generally the direction of all things pertayning to the Churche or that 〈◊〉 fall into any part of mans life that nothing ought to be done in the Churche or in the life of man contrarie to the word of God or not according to the true intent and meaning of the same Yet doe I denie that the scriptures doe expresse particularly euerie thing that is to be done in the Church which you your selfe afterward confesse or that it doth set downe any one certaine forme and kynd of gouernment of the Churche to be perpetuall for all times persons and places without alteration as I shall hereafter more particularly declare The place you do alleage out of the. 2. chap. of Salomons Prouerbes doth not proue your purpose for Salomon there teacheth the fruites and commoditie of wisedome and in the person of hir declareth what vnderstanding he shall haue in righteousnesse iudgement equitie and euery good pathe that harkeneth vnto wisedome obeyeth hir commaundements and giueth his hart to knowledge But what is this to proue that the scripture hath expressed euery particular ceremonie or kind of gouernment in the Church how followeth this reason if Princes and such as be in authoritie receiue the words of wisedome and hide hir commaundements within them c. they shall vnderstand Pro er 2. righteousnesse iudgement and equitie and euerie good pathe c. therfore the scriptures do expresse euerie ceremonie order discipline or kinde of gouernment that is to be vsed in the Church surely except you take héede you wil wander as farre out of the way in aleaging the scriptures as the authors of the Admonition did in quoting them I graunt you that Princes muste giue them selues to the vnderstanding of wysedome and especially of the wisedome of God contained in his word for so shall they vnderstande righteousnesse iudgement and equitie and euerye good pathe c. But what is this to our question Magistrates must be directed by the worde of God Ergo they must make no ciuill or ecclesiasticall lawe or order which is not expressed in the word of God I deny this argument Your other text is written in the. 1. Cor. 10. VVhither therfore we eate or drinke c. Whervpon you frame this argument whatsoeuer 1. Cor. 10. we do we must do it to the glory of God but no man can glorisie God in any thing but by obedience and there is no obedience but in respect of the commaundement and word of God Therfore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions to omit the vndigested forme of this argument wherin the conclusion agréeth not with the 〈◊〉 this text is as farre frō the purpose as is the other for what sequele is this we must do all to the glory of God we must obey the cōmandement wordes of God Ergo we must do nothing in our whole life but that which is particularly expressed in the worde of God Or therfore the scripture expresseth euery particular ceremonie or er or kind of gouernment to be vsed in the Church You may as well by this place conclude that euery ciuil actiō euery priuate actiō euery ciuil kind of gouernment is expressed in y ◠word For this rule of S. Paule is general and pertaineth to all Christians of what state conditiō or degrée so euer they be But the true meaning of S. Paule in y t place is that we seke y e glory of God in all things do nothing that is against his word and commādement He glori ieth God in meate drinke which acknowledgeth God to be the giuer of them and then is thankefull for them and vseth them moderately c. the like is to be said of all other actions That whiche Saincte Paule you say sayde of meates and drinkes that they are sanctified vnto vs by the worde of God c. It is true but to what purpose doe you alledge that 1. Tim. 4. place The woorde of God pronounceth all Gods creatures to bée good and the vse of them to bée lawful for al thyngs are cleane to those that bee cleane the same are to Tit. 1. 15. be desyred by vs of hym as the author and giuer of them and when we haue them wée must be thankefull for them But what is this to the proofe of any thing that wée haue nowe in controuersie But the place of Saincte Paule in the. 14. to the Romains you saye is of all other moste cleare c. Wherevpon you frame this argumente Paule speaking of things which are called indifferent sayeth that whatsoeuer is not of sayth is synne but faythe is not but in respecte of the woorde of God therefore
both in the Discourse of the whole booke and especially there where you go about to shew certaine reasons why there shoulde be other gouernment nowe than was in the tyme of the Apostles Io. Whitgifte You sette downe foure rules whiche you woulde haue all orders and ceremonies of The first rule of T. C. concerning ceremonies examined the Church framed by c. The first is 1. Cor. 10. that they offende not any especially the Churche of God whiche rule I thinke you take out of these wordes of that Chapter Tales estote vt nullum praebeatis offendiculum neque Iudaeis c. be suche as you giue no offence neither to the Iewes nor to the Grecians nor to the Churche of God But truly they make 1. Co. 10. ve 32. little or nothing for your purpose neither yet any other thing conteyned in that chapter For the Apostle there sheweth how one priuate man should behaue himself towardes an other yea and towardes the Church in things that may be done or not The orders of the Church depend not vpon euery mans liking or mislyking be done he prescribeth no generall rule for the Churche to make orders and appoynte Ceremonies by For what reason were it that the orders of the Churche shoulde so depende vppon one or two mennes lyking or misselyking that she should be compelled to alter the same so ofte as any shoulde therwith be offended Which must of necessitie come to passe if thys your rule were generall For what Churche is voide of some contentious persons quarellers whō no order no reason no reformatiō Musculus can please It is true that Musculus sayth There bee some whō no churche can please hauing alwayes some thing to reproue in other men and nothing in themselues The Anabaptistes the Libertines the Papistes and other vnquiet myndes and contentious persons are offended with such rites and Ceremonies as the reformed Churches vse neither is there as I suppose any reformed Church voyde of some of these kinde of persons shall they therfore by and by alter the forme and state S. Paule in this place would haue no iuste offence giuen to any either faithfull or infidell For Christians ought to be such at whose examples doctrine and lyfe no man mighte iustely take any offence True it is that in all orders and Ceremonies the Church must take héed that there be no iust offence giuen but she hath not to depend vpon euery priuate mans iudgement Whereas you say especially the Churche of God you adde to the wordes of the Apostle T. C. addeth to the texte to make it serue his turne for he sayth not especially and if you marke his meaning well you shall rather finde that he woulde haue especiall care taken that there be no offence giuen to such as are not yet come to the Churche whiche some vnderstand by the Iewes and Grecians least they shoulde still be withdrawne from the Churche when as there is no suche feare to be had of those that be alreadie membres of the same The seconde rule of T. C. allowed The iudgemēt of comelinesse and order resteth not in euery priuate person The thirde rule examined Your seconde rule 1. Cor 14. is a good and necessarie rule not onely alledged by me b t allowed and imbraced as moste conueniente but who shall iudge what is moste comely and the best order shall euery priuate man or rather such as haue the chiefe care and gouernment of the Churche This is a rule prescribed by the Apostle to the Church wherby she must direct hir orders and gouernment not to euery priuato person to picke a quarell to disquiet the Church The third 1. Cor. 14. that all be doone to edifying This sentence can not be applyed ge nerally to all things vsed in the Churche if we truly interprete the meaning of the Apostle but to the gifte of toungs to prayers and to prophecies whereof he hath made mētion before Neither can I perceiue that any learned Interpreter doth take it as a general rule for al rites and ceremonies but only for the exercises of Praying singing of Psalmes interpreting and Prophecying For of things vsed in the Church some pertaine to instruction and some to order and comelinesse For the firste he giueth thys rule Letal things be done to edifying For both the first and the second he giueth this Omnia decenter c. Let all things be done decently and in order Althoughe those ceremonies and rites whiche are appointed by the Churche for order and comlinesse do edifie In the treatise of appare tract 7. as Ceremonies that is not of themselues but per accidens accidentally as I haue in an other place declared It is sufficient if the Gouernours of the Church and suche as haue authoritie to ordeyne suche rites doe thynke them to be profitable in the respect of the tyme person and place neyther muste euerie priuate mannes iudgement in this case be respected as it is well sette downe by the Articles agréed vpon by the Dutche Churche in London allowed by M. Beza and by diuers other reformed Churches It is the thirde article Quid porrò ad aedificationem faciat c. Moreouer Theses Ecclesia Belgio-germanicae arti 3. what is profytable to edifye and what is not is not to be determined by the iudgemente of the common people nor of some on man nor yet by the issue of mens actions c. I can net vnderstande out of what parte of the. 14. to the Romaines youre laste The last rule pertaineth no more to ceremonies thā to other actions rule is taken except it be the sixt seuen or eyght verses out of the whiche I would gladly knowe howe you can deriue any rule to frame ceremonies by rather than all other actions of man whatsoeuer These be your rules to square by and truly we refuse them not thoughe some of them pertain nothing to your purpose The Dutch Churche and the other Churches in the. 11. of those articles before mentioned touching cōmaunding or forbidding indifferent things determin thus Qui propter aliam rationem c. They whiche for any other cause either cōmand or forbid at their pleasure the free vse of indifferēt things then for one Theses Eccles. Belg. art 11. of these three that is neither for edifying nor for policy nor ecclesiastical order especially those which do rashly iudge other mēs cōsciences in these matters offēd heynonsly against god against their neighbours Wherby they séeme to allow any order takē in indifferent things if it tend either to edifying or policie or ecclesiastical order But to return to your Reply y t which you speak of houre time day of prayer c. iustifie my saying for they be not expressed in the scripture as you also now affirm but left to the ordering not of euery priuate man but of the Churche or such as haue the chief care and gouernment of the
such words there do signify that God will gather the Gentiles and straungers into his Church and make no distinction betwixt them and the Iewes in the time of the Gospell but how you shoulde gather of that place that the people should be as learned as the Priests and Leuites I cannot coniecture Neither truly do I know to what purpose this texte is alleadged except it be alittle by the way to flatter the people and to claw them Chap. 6. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 21. Sect. 4. 5. Now if the Iewes had precepts of euery the least action which told them precisely how they should walke how is not their case in that poynt better than ours which bycause we haue in many things but generall rules are to seeke often times what is the will of God which we should followe But let vs examine their lawes and compare them with ours in the matters perteyning to the Church for whereas the question is of the gouernmente of the Churche it is very impertinent that you speake of the iudicialls as though you had not yet learned to distinguish betweene the Church and common welth To the ordering and gouerning of the Church they had only the morall and ceremoniall lawe we haue the same morall that they had what speciall direction therefore they inioy by the benefyte of that we haue Io. Whitgifte The Iewes as it is confessed by learned men had their lawes more particularly Why the Iewes had their ceremonies particularly prescribed prescribed vnto them and especially touching Ceremonies not onely bycause they were prone to Idolatrie but also oftentimes in subiection to Idolatrous princes where they had occasion offered vnto them to worship their false Gods Therefore a learned interpreter saith Fateor in multis ceremonijs diuinitùs mandatis fuisse occupatos ne alias appeterent I confesse that they were occupied in many ceremonies commaunded of Cal. in barmo in pentateuc God least they should desire other This then was one though not the only cause of their ceremoniall lawes and in this respecte their case was not better but indéede much more seruile and worse than ours who are deliuered from that yoke of ceremonies and bound only to two as Aug. Epist. 118. ad Ianuar. saithe most easily to be obserued Aug. epist. 118 and most excellent in signification that is the supper of the Lord and Baptisme So that you are much deceiued if you thinke vs to be in worse case than they were bycause we haue not so many particular rules for ceremonies as they had for we are deliuered from the bondage of Ceremonies as the Apostle declareth to the Galat. 5. Galat. 5. and therefore M. Caluine in his booke against the Anabap. answering this reason of theirs There is more perfection required in the Church of Christ than there was among Cal. adue ana the Iewes and therefore Christians may not vse the sword or be magistrates saith on thys sort Hoc quidem verum est quod ad Ceremonias attinet This is true as touching ceremonies meaning that we are not now bound to so many lawes of ceremonies but haue fréedome and libertie therein I speake of accidentall ceremonies as well as of Sacramentes You say that whereas the question is of the gouernment of the Church c. wherein antiquum obtines For our present question is whither all things to be vsed in the Church are prescribed in the scripture And that which I speake of the iudiciall lawe I speake it by occasion of the interpretation of these places of Deuteronomie Howbeit I sée no such distance betwixt the Church and the common wealth but the lawes of the one doth and oughte to perteine to the other excepte you will do as the Papistes did that is seclude the ciuill magistrate altogither from medling in any ecclesiasticall matter And I am well assured that not onely the ceremoniall and morall lawe but the iudiciall also perteyned to the gouernmente of the Churche of the The iudiciall law perteyned to the gouernment of the Church Israelites and that these preceptes of not adding too or taking from perteyned to that lawe also M. Musculus in his common places Cap. de legibus deuideth the iudiciall lawe into two partes into ecclesiasticall and ciuill his wordes be these VVherefore these preceptes may not vnfitly he meaneth iudiciall be deuided Muscul. into two kyndes whereof some are ecclesiasticall and other ciuill M. Beza in lyke Beza manner in his booke de haereticis a magist puniend saith that the iudiciall law doth partly consist in the externall manner of worshipping God partly in the ciuill affaires of this lyfe And M. Caluine in his Harmo vpon the fyue bookes of Moses expounding this Caluine verse in the. 23. of Exod. Thou shalt vtterly ouerthrow them and breake in peeces their images Calleth it a politike lawe and yet notwithstanding an apendix to the firste precepte and added to confirme that which he had spoken before against Idolatrie Therefore to the ordering and gouerning of the Churche the Iewes had not only the morall and ceremoniall but the iudiciall law also Chap. 6. the fourth Diuision T. C. Page 21. Sect. vlt. We haue no ceremonies but two the ceremonies or sacramentes of Baptisme and of the Lords supper and we haue as certayne a direction to celebrate them as they had to celebrate their ceremonies and fewer and lesse difficulties can rise of ours than of theirs and we haue more playne and expresse doctrine to decide our controuersies than they had for theirs What houre had they for their ordinarie and dayly sacrifices was it not left to the order of the Church what places were appoynted in their seuerall dwellings to heare the worde of God preached continually when they came not to Ierusalem the word was commaunded to be preached but no mention made what manner of place they should haue where was pulpits commaunded or chaires and yet they had both Where any forme of buriall in the law and yet it is a thing perteyning to the Chnrch that the dead be after a comely sort buried where any order or forme of mariage and yet it is knowne they had It was which is more in the discretion of that Church vpon occasion of dearth or warre plagues or any other common calamitie to proclayme a fast Io. Whitgifte We haue no ceremonies which he sacraments but two and in them and for al things How we haue but two Ceremonies perteyning to their substance we haue as certeyne direction as they had for any of theyr sacraments But yet is not euery circumstance to be vsed about the celebrating of them so particularly nor so certainely prescribed vnto vs as was to them in theyr ceremonies sacramentes and sacrifices for they had euery particular circumstance to be vsed about their sacrifices sacramentes and ceremonies set downe vnto them as it is euident Exod. 12. 25. 26. c. and in Leuiticus We
44. Sect. 2. Fyrst bicause in the Apostles tyme the Churche was vnder the crosse and therefore very fewe in comparison was there that embraced the Gospell and commonly they kept togither or at the least met oftentimes so that one of them was throughly knowne to another and they them selues could best iudge who among them was the fittest to teache and instructe hauing alwayes diuers fit for that function Nowe the Churche is in prosperitie and therefore the number that professeth great and dispersed into diuers places and in moste parishes not one fitte for the ministerie among them or knowne vnto them so that they should call they knowe not whome T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 4. You say it was in the Apostles times vnder the crosse and therfore fewe and so mighte easily knowe one an other who were fit for the ministerie But you forget your selfe maruellously For in the Apostles tymes the Churche I meane visible and sensible for else howe coulde it be persecuted was (1) It is not so much to haue the Gospell sowen in many places as to haue it generally receyued in a fewe sowen not onely throughout all Asia whiche is the greatest parte of the world but throughe a great parte of Affrica and no small portion of Europe and now it is shut in a smal corner of Europe beeing altogither banished out of Asia Affrica And therfore there are not the (2) There be many mo Christians in profession nowe thā were at that time For though the Gospell was then dispersed in many places yet was it professed but of fewe persons tithe nowe of thosethat professed the Gospell then and what a conclusion is this the Church were fewe in number because they were vnder the crosse For to let passe both other scriptures and stories ecclesiasticall haue you forgotten that which is sayde in the first of Exodus that the more the children of Israell were pressed and persecuted the more they multiplied Then you saye they kepte togither and met often and so knowing one another were best able to iudge one of another But heerein you speake as one that hath small experience of persecuted Churches for in the time of persecution the Christians that were in one great citie were fayne to gather them selues out of all the corners and from all the endes of the citie to one place beeing not able to deuide themselues into many parishes both for other considerations and because they were not able to maynteine many ministers and Elders and Deacons so that we reade that the Churche which was at Antioche wrote vnto the Churche at Ierusalem and that of Ierusalem vnto them of Antioche and S. Paule to the Churche at Rome at Ephesus and at Philippos c. Which speeches do declare that by al likelyhood in one great citie they had but (3) This proueth that there were but fewe Christians in those cities in respecte of the rest that were not Christians one congregation and therefore that muste needes be scattered heere and there and so could not haue the commoditie either of often meeting or of knowing one an other so wel as where suche a citie is deuided into many Churches Those that knowe the estate of Fraunce in the tyme of persecution do well vnderstande that euery Churche almost was gathered of townes whereof some were sixe miles some seauen some more from the place of meeting and keeping their congregations And therfore could not meete so often nor knowe one an other so well as we by the grace of God may do which meete oftener and in lesse number than they do Io. Whitgifte I remember my selfe very well and I also remember that no learned writer olde The multitude of Christians is nowe greater or newe denyeth this to be true that I haue sayde you onely saye that in the Apostles time the visible Church of Christ was sowne not onely throughout all Asia which is the greatest part of the world but a great part of Affrica and no smal portion of Europe you proue it not either by Scripture storie or anye good writer The Gospell I graunte was preached in all these partes of the world yet was it not generally receyued in any one part of the world no not in any citie not at Ierusalem where all the Apostles were not in any the least towne There were Christians at Ierusalem at Antioche at Ephesus at Rome c. But not the tenth part in any of these or other places in comparison to the Iewes and the Gentils that were there and not Christians In the Apostles time the visible Church of Christ at Rome was but an handful in cōparison to the times that followed when the whole citie was christened and professed Christ and had Christian Magistrats I speake not of the dispersing of the Gospell into diuers places which I know was in the Apostles time for that commaundement had they of Christ that they should goe into the whole world c. but I speake of the multitude of Christians Mar. 16 gathered togither in one place In the Apostles time as I sayd before no one country or kingdome no one citie no one towne did wholy professe Christ or for the most part now whole kingdomes whole countries whole nations professe him When Matthias was chosen the whole Church was gathered together in one place And so was it when the Deacons were chosen Which thing now is vnpossible bycause of the multitude so that thoughe the election mighte be by the whole Church in the Apostles time when it was together in one place yet can it not be so now séeing it is vnpossible for any one kingdome to conteine it It might wel be that the people in euery citie might méete in one place without confusion or tumult in the Apostles time when as scarce the. xx part of the citie were Christians but it cannot be so now when whole cities professe Christ. Wherfore I speake of the multitude of Comparison made in respect of the multitude in one place no dispersed Christians gathered togither in one place not of the multitude dispersed throughout the whole worlde though it is not to be imagined that the number of the Christians then dispersed through the whole world is comparable to the number of Christians which at this day be in Europe Now few Christians was there at Ierusalem not long before it was destroyed beyng aboue 40. yeares after Christ Doth not Eusebius Lib. 3. cap. 5. testifie that they all were receiued into a little towne called Pella and yet the Apostles had spent muche time and labour in preaching there but the number of such as did not professe Christ was infinite in that citie at that time if we beléeue histories and especially Iosephus de bello Iuda Lib. 7. cap. 17. wherfore your opinion of the multitude of Christians in the Apostles time in comparison to those that be now is but a very dreame It is a very good reason to say that
to him alone who knoweth those that be his If they communicate with vs in hearing the worde and receyuing the Sacramentes thoughe otherwyse they be drunkardes supersticious or infected with errours in doctrine c. yet must we count them in the Church vntil they be cut of from it by excommunication Wherefore whoremōgers Papistes Idolatrous and superstitious persons though they be knowne to be suche if they do cōmunicate with vs in the word and sacraments are to be counted in the Church vntill they be orderly secluded from the same And yet there may be Papistes Atheistes and suche lyke though they be not commonly knowne to be suche And you knowe well inough that they which in déede are Papistes in opinion yet if they be content to conforme them selues to the outwarde orders of the Churche would stande in their owne defense agaynst him that should accuse them They 〈◊〉 are in the Church and not of the Church are not hypocrite onely T. C. eueth place agaynst himselfe Neither is it true that onely hypocrites are suche as be in the Churche and are not of the Churche That chapter which you quote in your margent and almost the whole Epistle doth declare the contrarie For the incestuous Corinthian was in the Church vntill he was excommunicated And the Apostle there speaking of whoremongers Idolaters c ▪ sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur fuerit s ortator c. If any whiche is called Cor. 5. a brother be a fornicatour or couetous or an Idolater or a rayler or a drunkarde or an extortioner with suche one eate not By the name of brethren were those onely then called whiche did professe themselues to be Christians and were so accounted to be And master Caluine speaking agaynst the like errour of the Anabaptistes after that he had spoken of hypocrites in the Churche addeth and sayth Nonnunquà m etiam admixti Caluin aduers. Anabap. contemptores dei vitae dissolutae flagitiosae aut qui sibi cauebunt ne reprehendantur ab hominibus sed interim ostendunt se nullo dei timore nulla reuercntia tangi Oftentimes also there are mingled contemners of God men of dissolute and wicked life or suche as wil be sure to keepe them selues out of daunger of mens reprehension when as notwithstanding they shewe themselues not to be touched with any feare or reuerence of God If you meane that place 1. Cor. 5. where S. Paule sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur c. If any man which is called a brother c. and thinke that thereby they are secluded from the externall societie of the Churche you take the words of S. Paule amisse as the Anabaptistes did to whome obiecting that place M. Caluine answered in his booke written agaynst them in this maner Quòd autem vetat Paulus cum his cibum sumere Ibidem qui sunt vitae dissolutae id ad priuatam consuetudinem pertinet nō ad publicam cōmunionem VVheras Paule forbiddeth that we should eate with them which are of a dissolute life and behauiour that perteyneth onely to priuate familiaritie and not to the publike cōmunion Nowe if we ought to receyue the Communion with them we ought also to accompt them in the externall societie of the Churche But why do you thus séeke to shifte of those matters whiche you can not answere Is it not certayne that there is in the externall societie of the Churche a farre greater number of suche than there was in the Apostles time whiche if it be true as it can not be denied then do I still affirme that the election of the minister can not be safely committed to the people It is wel that you take vpō you to prescribe vnto the Magistrate how to deale with such as be not in the Church I pray you where finde you any such maner of dealing towards them appoynted vnto the ciuill Magistrate if you haue any scripture for it why do you not alleage it if you haue none what presumption is entred into you thus imperiously to prescribe lawes vnto Magistrates But what if there be playne scripture that they ought not to be admitted to the hearing of the worde if they be Math. 7. dogges and swine what say you to this Giue not that which is holy to dogges neither cast ye your pearles to swyne Your distinction betwixte the Churche and the common wealthe if it were in Neroes or Dioclesians time mighte be admitted withoute exception but in my opinion it is not so fytte in thys tyme and especially in this kingdome Maye he be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not in the Church of Christ if you had sayde that he maye be in the power and at the wyll and pleasure of a Christian Magistrate that is not in the Churche of Christe I coulde well haue lyked of it but it can not yet synke into my head that he should be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not also a member of the Churche of Christ concerning the outwarde societie M. Musculus in my iudgement speaketh truely agaynst this distinction of yours betwixte the Church and a Christian common wealth in his com pla it de magistra Let the Ethnikes and Infidels liuing not in the vnitie of truth but in the confusion Musculus of errors haue diuerse Magistrates and lawmakers some prophane and some holy bycause their lyfe is altogether prophane and their Religion nothing else but superstition Christian people are in euery respecte holy and consecrated vnto the name and glory of Christ not in temples onely and ecclesiasticall ceremonies but in all their lyfe in euerye place at all times in all things actions and studyes that according to the Admonition of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eateth or drinketh or whatsoeuer he doth he doth it to the glorie of God c. wherfore that distinction of ecclesiasticall and prophane lawes can haue no place in it bycause there is nothing in it that is prophane seyng that it is a holy people vnto the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie holy hys lawes holy c. be it therefore farre from the Church of Christ that it should be partly holy partly prophane c. But all this from the purpose and you make to many friuolous digressions from the matter which compelleth me also in following you to doe the lyke Chap. 6. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 2. Fiftly in the Apostles time there was no Churche established being In the Apostles time no church established and no christian Magistrate then no Christian Magistrates and therefore the state of the Church was popular nowe there is Christian Magistrates and a Church established and subiect to rulers c. T. C. Pag. 35. Sect. 1. If there be no churches established bycause there were no Christian Magistrates then the churches of the Apostles were not established
And it is absurde to say that the Ministers nowe with the helpe of the Magistate can laye surer foundations of the churche or builde more cunningly or substancially than the Apostles could which were the maister builders of the church of God and as for the consūmation of the body of the church and the beautie of it seyng it consisteth in Iesus Christ which is the head that is alwayes ioyned vnseparably in all times of the crosse and not the crosse wyth his body which is the church I can not see why the churches vnder persecution should not be established hauing both the foundation and the nethermost partes as also the toppe hyghest parte of the churche as well as those which haue a christian Magistrate If in deede the Magistrate whom God haue sanctified to be a ourse vnto his churche were also the head of the same then the churche coulde not be established without the Magistrate but we learne that althoughe the godly (a) The Magistrat is head of the common wealth and but a mēber of the Church by T. C. his iudgement Magistrate be the head of the common wealthe and a great ornament vnto the churche yet he is but a member of the same The churche may be established without the Magistrate and so that all the worlde and all the deuils of hell can not shake it but it can not be in quiet in peace and in outwarde suretie without a godly Magistrate And therefore the churche in that respect and suche lyke prayseth God and prayeth for the Magistrate by the which it enioyeth so singular benefites Therevpon you conclude that the churche was then popular whiche is as vntrue as the former parte For the churche is gouerned wyth that kynde of gouernment which the Philosophers that wryte of the beste common wealthes affirme to be the best For in respecte of Christe the head it is a Monarchie and in respecte of the auncientes and pastoures that gouerne in common and wyth like authoritie amongst them selues it is an Aristocratie or the rule of the beste menne ▪ and in respecte that the people are not secluded but haue theyr interest in Churche matters it is a Democratie or a popular estate An image whereof appeareth also is the pollicie of this realme for as in respecte of the Queene hir Maiestie it is a Monarchie so in respect of the most honourable Councell it is an Aristocratie and hauyng regarde to the Parliament whiche is assembled of all estates it is a Democratie But you shoulde haue shewed howe thys difference of hauing a Christian Magistrate and hauing none oughte to bryng in a diuersitie in the choyse of the Pastor by theyr churche it were not harde if one woulde spende his tyme so vnprofitably to fynde out an hundred differences betweene a persecuted Churche and that whiche is in peace but seeyng you can shewe me no reason why the Churche maye not choose her ministers as well vnder a godlie magistrate as vnder a tyrant I wyll be bold to shewe you howe that if it were lawefull to breake the order of God it were meeter in the tyme of persecution that the election shoulde be in some others discreate and learned persons handes to bee made without the consente of the churche than in that tyme when there is a godlie magistrate and that it is then most conuenient to be chosen by the churche Io. Whitgifte There was then no Churche established in any Ciuill gouernment bycause How the Church was not established in the Apostles time the Magistrates did then persecute and not defende the Churche The Churche in the Apostles tyme was established in doctrine moste perfectly in discipline gouernment and ceremonies as was conuenient for that tyme and as the Church maye be in tyme of persecution but the tyme was not yet come wherof the Prophete Esay 49. sayde Kings shall be thy nursing fathers and Princes shall be thy nursing mothers therfore it was not established in any ciuill gouernment neyther did it so publikcly and openly shewe it selfe The Gospell and the Church was in Queene Maries tyme here in Englande but it was persecuted not established not maynteyned not allowed of nor professed by the publike magistrate and the lawes of the lande and therefore of necessitie a greate difference betwixte the gouernmente of it then and the gouernmente of it nowe the outwarde shewe of it then and the outward shewe of it nowe the placing of Ministers then and the T. C. often offendeth in ignorance of the Eiench ▪ placyng of them nowe My meanyng and my woordes be playne you needed not to haue offended agayne as almoste contynually you doe in the ignorance of the Elench whylest you doo not reason nor answere ad idem If you speake of the Churche as it is a communion and societie of the faithfull and elect onely and of the gouernment thereof as it is onely spirituall then is it moste certaine that the Churche is as thoroughly established as perfectely gouerned as gloriously decked and beautified in the tyme of persecution as it is or can be vnder the ciuill Magistrate But if you speake of the externall societie of the Churche which comprehendeth bothe good and euill and of the outwarde gouernment of it then neyther it is nor can be in suche perfecte state nor so thoroughly established or outwardly adorned in the tyme of the Crosse as it is and may be vnder a Christian Prince The ignorance of thys distinction of the Church and of the gouernment thereof of the whiche I haue spoken more at large in an Tract 2. other place causeth you to fall into so many and so grosse erroures concernyng the same You saye that if the Ciuile Magistrate were the head of the Churche c. Christe The Prince head of the Church onely and properly is the head of the Churche for it is hys body but yet in the respecte of the externall societie of the same and the Supreme authoritie that is gyuen of GOD to the Prince ouer his people in all causes he maye bée also in that respecte called the head of the Churche c. Chrysostom in Epistol ad Philip. Homel 13. gyueth thys name to certaine women Chrysost. of whome he sayeth thus Videntur mibi istae mulieres caput fuisse Ecclesiae quae illic erat These women seeme to mee to haue bin the head of the Churche which was there And therfore a learned mā answering Hosius who reproued Vergerius for mouing y t king Iaco. Andraea ▪ of Polonia to take vopen hym to be the head of that Churche sayeth on thys sorte As the Churche of Christ in earth is but one bodie so hathe it but one head as the Apostle teacheth which is Iesus Christe who is always present with his Churche and gouerneth it with his holie spirite c. but bicause this Church being visible is not onely ruled by the worde but by the sworde of the magistrate also appointed
by God therefore wee saye there are so manie heades of Churches as there are gouernours of countreys So that you sée the magistrate to be the head and chief gouernour of a particular church in this respect that it is a visible societie and must haue besides the spirituall an externall gouernment also whereof bicause the ciuill Magistrate is the head and chief therefore it can not be therin established without the ciuil magistrate Your spare speches for the authoritie of the Magistrate in the gouernment of the Church I will note in a seuerall place by themselues and therfore doe I the lyghtlyer passe them ouer in this place In the meane tyme this is no good argument to saye that the Magistrate is but a member of the Churche therefore he is not the heade and chiefe gouernoure thereof in earth for the head though it be the chiefe yet is it a parte of the bodie But you still confounde the visible and inuisible Churche of Christe the spirituall and externall gouernment of the same which confusion maye make you seeme to say something to suche as doe not diligently consider it when in very déede you say nothing to the ouerthrowe of any thing that I haue answered The Churche may be established without the magistrate touching true faith and the spirituall gouernment of it by Christe in the hearte and conscience of man How y t church may be established without a Magistrate but not touching the visible societie and the externall gouernment Upon this confusion also is that grounded whiche followeth that the Churche in the respect of Christ the head is a Monarchie c. For when I sayde that the state of the Churche was popular in the Apostles tyme I spake of the outward forme shewe and gouernment of it which therefore I call popular bycause the Churche it selfe that is the whole multitude had interest almost in euery thing especially whylest the Churche yet remained at Ierusalem I knowe that all these thrée kyndes of gouernmentes maye bée mixte together after dyuers sortes but yet the state of gouernment is named according to that whiche moste ruleth and beareth the greatest sway as when matters are moste commonly gouerned by the consent of the more parte of the people the state is called popular when by diuers of the best and wysest it is called optimorum status when by one it is called a Monarchie as in thys Realme in the Courte of Parliamente althoughe all the states be represented yet bycause the iudgemente confirmation and determination resteth in the Prince therefore the state is neyther Aristocratie nor Democratie but a Monarchie Euen so in the Apostles time especiallye as I haue sayde whylest the Churche remayned at Hierusalem thoughe they myghte be counted Optimates yet bycause moste thyngs in gouernmente were doone by the consente of the people therefore the state for that tyme was popular You saye that I shoulde haue shewed howe thys difference of hauyng a Christian Magistrate and hauyng none oughte to bryng in a diuersitie in the choyse of the Pastor by the churches I haue shewed you before the reasons of it And nowe I adde this that for as muche as the Magistrate is the chiefe and principall Gouernoure of the Churches vnder Christe and oughte to haue a speciall care and regarde to and for the same It is not méete that anye thyng touching the gouernmente of the Churches or any publyke function perteyning therevnto shoulde bée otherwyse doone than he shall thynke conuenient and profitable for the present state of it And therefore well sayeth M. Musculus in his common places titu de verbi ministris Musculus It is not conueniente that those thinges whyche are publikely to bee doone or which concerne the people subiecte vnto them or to bee shorte are suche as concerne Religion and in that respecte perteyne vnto them excepte wee will saye with the fantasticall Anabaptistes that Christians may not bee Magistrates should be done without the consent and knowledge of the ciuile Magistrate And againe wherefore for the condition of tyme necessitie required that the Magistrates and Princes by the meanes of a fewe men which were of excellent iudgement and had a care that the Church of Christ should be prouided for might herevnto be induced that they might appoint faithfull and learned Pastours ouer their subiects And titulo de magistratibus speaking of the Ciuil magistrate he sayth Firste that he shoulde place ministers of Churches where they are wanting whether he chooseth them himselfe or confirmeth them whiche are chosen of others by his commaundement For it is not conuenient that any man should take vpon him anye publike offices in the Church without the authoritie of the publike magistrate But you will saye it was otherwise in the primitiue Churches in whiche the prelates of the Churches were chosen of the ministers and the people I answere Suche was then the state of the Churches that the ministers were not otherwise to be chosen bicause they had not a Christian magistrate if you call backe the manners of those tymes first call backe the conditions and state of them also The Prince hath to sée that all thyngs be doone in the Churche orderly and profitably and therfore hath he the altering and changing of suche elections Your offering of an hundreth differences betwene a persecuted Churche and that whiche is in peace shall goe with that bragge whiche you vsed Fol. 22. where you offered twentie to one c. But to what purpose make you this offer the more differences there are betwéene them the more is my cause iustifyed But you will be bolde to shewe meehow that if it were lawfull to breake the order of God c. and I will also be as bolde to answere your reasons seuerally Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 1. In the tyme of persecution a churche chooseth an vnlearned minister or one that is wicked in lyfe howesoeuer it be he is vnfit the Churches rounde aboute by their ministers or Elders admonishe this churche of her faulte and moue to correcte it the Churche will not by no meanes be admonished what can now the other churches doe in the tyme of persecution if they excommunicate the whole churche it is a harde matter and yet if they maye doe that there is all they can doe the euill is not remedied which may be easily taken away where there is a godly Magistrate and the Churche as is before sayd compelled to a better choyse So you see that there are * This is but one and yet none in deede for the case you put is verie vnlikely se the tyme you speake of inconueniences in the choosing of the Pastor and other the gouernours of the churche by the churche in the tyme of persecution which are not in the tyme of peace vnder a christian Magistrate Io. Whitgifte This is your only reason to proue that in a Churche persecuted it is méeter for the
Minister to be chosen without the consent of the Churche than in a Church béeing in prosperitie And surely it is euen lyke to your reasons in other matters for first that whiche you saye of the Churches rounde aboute for admonishing correcting or excommunicating that Churche that shall choose an vnméete minister is not to bée founde in all the Scripture either in commaundement or example and it is a méere deuise of your owne head Secondly it is moste vnlyke that the Church in the time of persecution should choose an vnméete or a wicked minister bycause those that be persecuted themselues be godly and well disposed and carefull to haue suche a one as they may safely committe themselues vnto For thoughe in the tyme of persecution there maye bée some hypocrites that will for a tyme ioyne themselues with the Godlie yet the moste parte doe of a conscience that whyche they doe else woulde they not endure persecution wherefore if euer the election of theyr minister may safely be committed vnto them it may then so be especially Lastely in the tyme of persecution they haue no Magistrate they be all equall neyther is one bounde to obey another by any ciuill lawe none hathe chiefe and speciall care ouer the rest as Magistrate to compell wherfore it can not be otherwyse then but that suche offices and functions should be chosen by a common consente neyther can there be therein in that tyme the halfe parte of inconuentences that are in the same in tyme of prosperitie as any man of any consideration may euidently perceyue Chap. 6. the seuenth Diuision T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 2. 3. Nowe I will shewe you * Where find you that I thinke so whiche thinke that the consent of the Churche in their minister can not stande with the time of a christian magistrate that it hath not onely stoode but hath bene confirmed in their tymes and by them In codice Iustiniani it is thus written following the doctrine of the holie Apostles (i) The words of this constitution are craftily suppressed c. we ordeyne that as often as it shall fall out that the ministers place shall be boyd in any citie that voyces be gyuen of the inhabiters of that citie that he of thrce which for their right faith holynesse of life and other good things are most approued should be chosen to the Bishoprike which is the most meete of them Also Carolus Magnus which was the first Germaine a He was Fran corum non Germanorum primus Imperator for Conradus his nephwe Otho did fyrst trāslate the empire from Fraunce to Germanie ▪ as some thynke Emperoure in 63. distinct sacrorum canonum saith being not ignorant of the holy Canons that the holy Church in y e name of God should vse hir honoure the freelyer we assent vnto y e ecclesiasticall order that the Byshops be chosen by election of the Cleargie and people according to the statutes of the canons of that diocesse In the. 63. distinction it appeareth that Ludouicus Carolus his sonne decreed that he shoulde be Byshop of Rome whome all the people of Rome should consent to choose Io. Whitgifte Where do I say that the consent of the Church in the choise of their minister cannot stande with the time of a Christian magistrate I haue said that howsoeuer in the Apostles time that kind of electing ministers was conueniente now in thys state of the Churche it were pernitious and hurtfull whiche to be moste true the differences of the times before by me alleadged do proue The ciuill magistrate may committe this election to such as he liketh best and may vse that maner and kind of choise which he thinketh to be most conuenient for that Church whereof The proofes of T. C. improue his purpose he hath the chiefe care next vnto God And these proofes that you here bring in to iustify your cause in my opinion do quite ouerthrow the same For it appeareth to haue bin in the power of Emperours and ciuill magistrates to appoynte the maner and forme of suche elections why else shoulde they haue néeded to make any lawes or constitutions for that matter It is true that Musculus Lo. com tit de magistra speaking of the ciuill Magistrate sayth Prudenter autem magna c. But he muste wisely and verie Muscul. warilye order the election of ministers seeking nothyng else but that the flock of the Lorde might be prouided for He shall choose not only suche men as are holie but such as are also able to teach He shal flee simonie more than a dog or snake But he shal vse that maner of election which may be most profitable for the Churches And for somuche as hee is not able of himselfe to doe all things which perteine herevnto he shall vse the helpe and aide of faithfull men and of those that feare God vppon whose shoulders he may laye the care or burthen whether they bee within the order of the ministerie of the woorde or of an other profession but notwithstanding in suche sorte that he him selfe doe know them whiche are chosen and if they seeme meete do by his authoritie and power confirme them But to come to your authorities The words that you do alleadge in codice Iustiniani T. C. subtilly concealeth the words of his author that make agaynst hym must somewhere else be sought for I thinke your authoure Illiricus is deceyued in quoting that place for surely I cannot vnderstand that they are to be founde in that booke But from what authoure soeuer they come you haue subtillie left out the words that expound his meaning and make directly against you Wherefore I will recite them worde for word as they are reported in Illiricus the authoure out of whome you haue borowed them Sequentes igitur doctrinam c. Folowing the doctrine of the holy Apostles in that that most pure and vncorrupt Priests ought to be chosen which are appoynted for that cause chiefly that by their prayers they might obtayne the fauoure of the most mercifull God towardes common wealthes we do decree by this present constitution that as often as it shall happen the roome of any priest to be voyde the inhabitants of the same citie shall giue their voyces of three which in true faith holynesse of life and in all other good things are approued and allowed of that of these he whiche shall be moste meete might be chosen Byshop The Emperoure saith that he followeth the doctrine of the Apostles in this that they prescribe what maner of men are to be chosen sci integerrimi incorruptissimi most pure and most vncorrupt not in the maner or kinde of electing as you would séeme to make the Reader beléeue in noting these words only folowing y e doctrine of the holy Apostles and leauing out that which foloweth declareth wherein he meant to folow their doctrine namely de eo quòd debeant eligi integerrimi in
dead with this condition if they be worthy and the people choose them the Byshop of the citie of Alexandria togither giuing his consent and appoynting him Io. Whitgifte The Councell in that epistle first declareth what was done with Arius then what became of Melitius how he was deposed from his Bishoprike and yet suffered to remayne in his owne citie but to haue no authoritie of choosing or ordeyning ministers either in the prouince or in any other citie After it sheweth that such as were ordeyned and made ministers or promoted by him shoulde kéepe their ministerie and honoure but not haue any authoritie in elections or in preferring of any to any degrée The. li. cap. 9. of ministerie wherevpon it by and by followeth qui verò Dei gratia c. but those that by the grace of God and your prayers haue not bin factious and scismaticall but kept themselues vndefyled in the Catholike and Apostolike Church it is meete that they should haue authoritie and power both to choose any man and to giue their names whiche are worthy to be of the Cleargy And to do all things according to the lawes and decrees of the Church Their meaning is euident that suche only of the Cleargy shoulde haue to do in electing or preferring any to the ministerie whiche haue not bin schismaticall and factious in the time of heresie for these words of the Councel are not spokē of the people but of the Cleargie as the circumstance of the place doth declare which thing Iacobus Grinaeus noteth in the margēt in these words Iura Clericorum qui ortbodoxi manserunt That which followeth and if it happen any to dye in the Church c. dothe argue that the people had a consent in those Churches according to the orders whereof the Councel would haue them to procéede but it maketh no new law for it neyther doth it decrée any thing as concerning it And it is euident that their order herein was not generall but particular to those Churches for it followeth after in the same epistle This order was peculiar to Egypt and Alexandria Haec propriè peculiariter ad Aegyptum atque sanctissimam Alexandrinam ecclesiam pertinent So that it is manifest that the meaning of the Councel was not to bind all Churches to this order But al this laboure of yours is lost for you go about to proue that which no man denieth Chap. 6. the twelfth Diuision T. C. Page 37. Sect. 4. Another of the famousest councels called the Councel of Constantinople which was gathered vnder Theodosius y e great as it is witnessed by the Tripartite story in an epistle which it wrote Lib. 9. cap. 19. to Damasus the Pope and Ambrose and others saith thus we haue ordeyned Nectarius the Byshop of Constantinople with the whole consent of the Councel in the sight of the Emperoure Theodosius beloued of God the whole citie togyther decreeing the same Likewise he saythe that Flanian was appoynted by that Synode byshop of Antioch the whole people appoynting him Io. Whitgifte The words in that epistle both as the Tripartite histo and as Theodoret himselfe reporteth them lib. 5. cap. 9. signify that the whole citie was well pleased that Nectarius was chosen to be their Byshop and consented vnto it But it dothe not therefore follow that the whole citie did choose him In Theodoret I find these words Reuerendissimum T e. li. 5. cap. 9 dei amantissimū Nectarium episcopū praeposuimus in generali nostro Cō ilio praesente amantissimo dei Imperatore Theodosio cum omnium clericorum ac totius ciuitatis approbatione VVe haue placed or ordeyned the most reuerend and louing Nectarius in our generall Councel both Theodosius the Emperoure most beloued of God being presente and also with the approbation of all the Cleargie and the whole citie They saye we haue placed or ordeyned Nectarius c. and they whiche say so were Byshops Moreouer Theodoret in the chapter that goeth before saith plainly that the Pastors and ministers did choose him Byshop But be it that the whole citie did giue their voyces that is no proofe that at all times it must of necessitie be so The same answer I make to your example of Flauianus Chap. 6. the xiij Diuision T. C. Page 37. Sect. 5. 6. 7. Likewise in the councell of Carthage where Augustine was holden about Anno Domin Needelesse proo fes 400. in the first Canon of the Councel it is sayd when he hath bin examined in all these and found fully instructed then let him be ordeyned Byshop by the common consent of the Clearks and the lay people and the Byshops of the prouince and especially either by the authoritie or presence of the Metropolitane And in the Toletane councell as it appeareth in the. 51. distinction it was thus ordeyned Let not him be counted a Priest of the Churche for so they speake whome neyther the Cleargie nor people of that citie where he is a Priest doth choose nor the consent of the Metropolitane and other Priests in that prouince had sought after Moreouer Concilium Gabilonense whiche was holden Anno domini 650. in the tenth Canon hath this If any Byshop after the death of his predecessor be chosen of any but of the Byshops in the same prouince ▪ and of the Cleargie and citizens let another be chosen and if it be otherwise let that ordinatiō be accompted of none effect Al which Councels proue manifestly that as the people in their elections had the ministers round about or Synods and councels directing them so there was none came to be ouer the people but by their voyces and consents Io. Whitgifte This which is affirmed of these Councels is confessed to be true but not to the purpose for the question is not whether the peoples consent were required at any time or no but whether it must be required at all times Chap. 6. the. xiiij Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 4. This alteration of gouernment and orders in the Church of Christ is well set out by Ambrose in the. 4. to the Ephe. vpon these wordes Et ipse dedit c. where he saith on this sort that the number of Christians Ambrose might encrease and be multiplyed in the beginning it vvas permitted to euery one to preach the gospell to baptise and to expound the scriptures but vvhen the Church vvas enlarged there vvere certayne parishes appoynted and gouernoures and other officers ordeyned in the Church c. Therfore the vvritings of the Apostles do not in all things agree vvith the orders that are novv in the Church Thus farre Ambrose T. C. Pag. 38. Sect. 1. Indeede if you put such darke colours vpon the Apostles Church as this is it is no maruell if it ought not to be a patrone to vs of framing and fashioning our Church after it But O Lorde who can paciently heare this horrible disorder ascribed to the Apostles Church whiche
a Pastor when there is any place void Afterward he is sent to the Senate from the which if he be doubted of he is sent agayne to the ministers to be examined and then if they find him meete he is confirmed of the Senate whiche standeth of some number of the people and by the moste parte of their voyces By these things it appeareth that this election of the Minister by the people is lawfull and Apost like and confe sed also by him that those that are otherwise bring with them subiection vnto the Church and seruitude and carya note and marke of corruption of Religion Laste of all that he go h about to defende the election vsed in the Churches where he was Minister by thys that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche Nowe what cause there may be that we should bring the Churche into bondage or take awaye the order whereby bothe the Minister maye be better assured of hys calling and the people maye the willyngiyer submitte them selues vnto theyr pastors and gouernours or what cause to departe from the Apostolyke forme of the choyse of the Pastor beyng lawfull I confesse I knowe not and woulde be gladde to learne To assigne the cause hereof vnto the Christian Magistrate and to saye that these things can not be hadde vnder hym as you vnder Maister Musculus name doe affyrme is o doe greate iniurie vnto the office of the Magistrate whyche abridgeth not the libertie of the Churche but defendeth it diminisheth not the Pastor his assurance of his calling but rather encreaseth it by establishyng the ordinarie callyngs onely whiche in the time of perse ution some tymes are not so ordinarie withdraweth not the obedience of the people from the Pastor bu vrgeth it where it is not and constrayneth it where it is not voluntarie And seeyng that also (*) Musculu 〈◊〉 ning 〈◊〉 Musculus sayth that these forced elections are remedyes for corruption of Religion and disordered states what greater dishonour can there be done vnto the holy institution of God in the ciuill gouernour than to saye that these forced elections wythout the consent of the people muste be where there is a Christian Magistrate as thoughe there coulde be no pure Religion vnder him when as in deede it maye be easily vnder hym pure whiche can hardly and with greate daunger be pure withoute hym And when as it is sayde that the Churches consente shoulde be hadde in the election of the Minister (a) Here you ar one 〈◊〉 from your Apostolica forme we doe not denie the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill Magistrate and the disanulling of them if the Churche in choosing and the Ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man so that yet he doe not take away the libertie from the Church of choosing a more conuenient man So that you see that by Musculus your witnesse reasons thys enforced election withoute the consente of the people is but corrupte and so oughte not to be in the Churche And that although it hath bene borne withall yet it must be spoken against and the lawfull forme of election laboured for of all those that loue the truth and the sinceritie therof Io. Whitgifte Turpe est doctori c. you haue before tolde vs what Iustinian sayth (a) Pag. 36. Sect. 2. in codice Also T. C. tripped in that wher he findeth fau with other of (b) Page 37. Sect. 3. an Epistle sent from the councell of Nice vnto the Churche of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention of the councell of (c) Page 37. Sect. 5. Carthage of (d) Ibidē sect ▪ 6 Toletane councell and afterwarde you tell vs what (e) Pag. 4 Sect. 2. Augustine (*) Pag. 72. Sect. 3. Gratiā say and wil that (f) Pag. 71. Sect. 6. the centuries should be seene c. yet you neither tell vs in what part of Iustinians Code in what booke of Chap. of Theodoret in what coūcel of Cartharge or of Toledo in what tome of Augustine or part of Gratiā in what centurie or booke of centuries which all require much more tyme to search out than this of Musculus especially your law which for any thing that I can perceiue asketh so long a searche in codice Iustiniani that I thinke it will neuer be founde there But it is no great marueile for you reporte them as the Author doth of whom you borowe them without any further searche or tryall But to put you out of doubt this place of Musculus is titulo de Magistratibus Musculus in déede confesseth that in the Apostles tyme ministers were choosen by the people and ordeyned and confirmed by the elders And after that he hath shewed this manner of election to haue béene vsed t Cyprians tyme he addeth and sayth Ad hunc itaque Tit. de ve b ▪ ministris modum eligebantur c. After thys manner in tymes paste were Ministers Byshoppes and Deacons elected the whyche forme also of electing Churches reteyned vnto the tyme of Christian Princes and Magistrates whose consent was required in the election of Byshoppes and that worthily for it is not meete that those things whiche are to be done publikely and concerne the people whiche be their subiectes and perteine vnto them in respect of Religion except we wil say with the Anabap. that Christians ought not to be Magistrates shoulde be done without their consent After this he declareth how the Bishop of Rome in the end spoyled the Magistrate and the people also of this libertie and when he hath spoken against the abuses of the Romane Church in that matter he maketh an obiection of such Churches as professe the Gospell saying but some peraduenture wi l obiect that those Churches whyche in our time will seme to haue reformed Religion receiue their ministers of the Magistrate not by any election of the people to this obiection he sayth that he is compelled to answere for their sakes who though they faithfully labour in the word of the Lord yet do they doubte whether their vocatiō be lawfull or no bicause they were not elected ordeined according to the Apostolicall forme And hauing confessed those points y t you here set downe he maketh this resolutiō Verū si consideres diuersū ecclesiae statū c. If thou shalt consider the diuers state of the Church thou must confesse that that which in it self is Apostolicall lawful vsuall conuenient for the libertie of the Churches primis quidē ecclesiae tēporibus prodesse potuisse nostris vero non ita might wel profit the Church in the beginning but not so in our time For thē there was not such a multitude of Christiās but that the minister without tumult might by cōmon consent be chosen which thing at this day were very hard to be done Moreouer thē the mindes of the faithfull were not so generally infected with cōmon errors nor so blinded
Churches consent shoulde be had in the election of T. C. vrgeth the Apostolicall forme and yet bringeth in that which is not Apostolicall the minister c. but how shall we know that you meane as you speake for you haue no warrant so to doe in any Apostolicall election or in any forme vsed in the Apostles time Wherefore either you must breake that rule which you would haue both to be perfit and perpetuall for all times and states or else doe you but dissemble with the Magistrate and minde nothing lesse than that you say you would do But as good neuer a whit as neuer a deale the better for the Magistrate muste The absurdities of the deuise of T. C. confyrme them or reiecte them if he be godly and take not from the Churche hir libertie in choosyng First what if the Magistrate be vngodly or who shall iudge whether he be so or no or howe shall the Magistrate knowe when the Churche in choosing and the Ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man who shall complayne to the Prince of his vnfitnesse if both the Ministers and people thinke him fitte or who shall iudge of hys fitnesse or what priuiledge shal the Magistrate haue hereby when he muste haue one of the peoples electing whether he will or no or else muste the Church the distitute Surely the Magistrate should haue a good office to be so troubled with suche elections in this Churche of Englande In good sadnesse tell me doe you not sée the absurdities of these youre fonde and troublesome deuises or are you so blynde that you perceyue not how farre you would swarue from the forme which you saye was vsed by the Apostles when you giue to the ciuill Magistrate the confirmation of ministers which they in their time kept to themselues Musculus hath in most playne manner taught the selfe same thing that I haue done as it may appeare to all those that will vnderstand but you of purpose woulde blind both your selfe and others That Byshops haue authoritie to admitte and ordeyne Ministers Chap. 7. the firste Diuision Admonition Nowe that authoritie is giuen into the handes of the Bishop alone who by his sole authoritie thrusteth vpon them suche as they many times as well for vnhonest life as also for lacke of learning may and do iustly dislike Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 46. Sect. 1. That Bishops haue authoritie to admitte Ministers which is heere denyed it is plaine by that which is written 1. Tim. 5. manus citò ne cui imponas Lay thy handes rashely on none These wordes Ambrose Chrysostome and all learned wryters for the moste part doe say to be an Admonition to Timothie that he oughte to be circumspecte in appoynting of Ministers And to Titus chap. 1. Paule saythe that he left him at Creta vt constituat oppidatim presbyteros that he shoulde appoynt Ministers in euery towne This Hierome and others doe expounde of the authoritie that Titus had in placing ministers in euery Church T. C. Pag. 39. Sect. 3. 4. Pag. 40. Sect. 1. 2. Nowe you woulde proue (*) A wilfull de prauing of the Answere that this election of Ministers by one man was in the Apostles tyme. But you haue forgotten your selfe whiche sayde a little before that this election by the Churche was not onely in the Apostles tymes but also in the time of Cyprian nowe you saye otherwyse And if the election of the minister by the Churche agree so well with the tyme of persecution and when there is no christian Magistrate howe commeth it to passe that in those dayes when persecution was so hotte and there were no suche Magistrates that Saint Paule woulde haue the election by one man and not by the Churche Besides that if (*) Who hath sayde so this be Saint Paule hys commaundement that the Byshop shoulde onely choose the Minister why doe you make it an indifferent thing and a thing in the power of the Churche to be varyed by tymes for this is a flat commaundement Thus you see you throw downe wyth one hande as fast as you build with the other But to answere directly to the place of the fifth of the first to Timothie I saye first that Saynt Paule writeth to Timothie and therefore instructeth him what he shoulde doe for his parte in the appoynting of the Minister If he had written to the whole churche of Ephesus he woulde lykewise haue instructed them howe they shoulde haue behaued themselues in that businesse If one doe write vnto his friende that hath interest in any election to take heede that he choose none but suche as are meete shall anye man conclude therevpon that none hathe to doe in that election but he to whome that letter is written Then I say further that Saynt Paule attributeth that vnto Timothie that was common to more with hym bycause he beyng the director and moderator of the election is sayde to doe that whiche many doe whyche thyng I haue proued by diuerse examples bothe oute of the Scripture and otherwise before And euen in thys imposition of handes it is manifestly to be shewed For that whereas Saynt Paule 2. Tim. 1. sayth in the seconde Epistle that Timothie was ordeyned by the putting on of hys handes vpon hym in the firste Epistle he sayth that he was ordeyned by the putting on of the handes of the 1. Tim. 4. eldership So that that whiche he in one place taketh to him selfe alone in the other he communicateth wyth moe Agayne it is a fault in you that you can not distinguishe or put difference betwene the election and imposition of handes Last of all I answere that althoughe thys mighte agree to Timothie alone as in deede it can not yet it followeth not that euery Byshop maye doe so For Timothie was an Euangelist which was aboue a Byshop as hereafter shall better appeare And it is an euill argument to saye the greater maye doe it therefore the lesse maye doe it The superiour therefore the inferiour If you were at any coste with producing your witnesses you shoulde not be so wyse to be so lauishe of them as to cite Ambrose and Chrysostome to proue a thing that none hath euer denyed for who denyeth that Sainte Paule doth not gyue warnyng to Timothie to be circumspecte if you meane to vse theyr testimonie to proue that he onely made the elections they saye neuer a word for you if there be any thing cite it To the place of Titus I answere as to that of Timothie for there is nothing there but agreeth also to this place And as for Hierome he hath nothing in that place as he hath in no other to (*) As if there were any 〈◊〉 thing affirmed proue that to the Byshop onely doth belong the right of the election of the Minister I haue shewed you reasons before why it can not be so taken of the sole election of the Byshop the Churche beyng shut
theyr reason is farre from good reason so are your similitudes farre from prouing the same the Logitians say Soluitur sunilitudo ostensa dissimilitudine First ther is great difference betwixte the office of an Apostle and the office of a Pastor as you must néedes confesse Then is there also difference in the number for the Apostles whiche were chosen of Christe to be witnesses of his Resurrection were twelue and therfore the number certain but the number of Preachers and Pastors is not limited but the mo the better Thirdly there was one chosen in the place of Iudas that the Scripture might be fulfilled as Peter saith Act. 1. but there is no such thing in the election of Pastors other ministers Moreouer it was the twelfth place in number that Mathias was chosen vnto and not any locall place such as pastors take charge of Wherfore except you can make a certayn number and no certain number a local prescript and definite cure and a generall charge without prescription of any certain place all one or at the least verie like this argument Mathias was chosen into the place of Iudas ergo no man muste bee admitted into the ministerie excepte he haue a Cure muste of necessitie be a very childishe and fonde argument And how ofte shall I tell you that to reason à facto ad ius of an example to make a generall rule is a very vnskilfull kinde of rasoning excepte there be some generall rule and commaundement according to that example But was not Paule added to the number of the Apostles though there were no Some admitted to the ministerie a place beeing not voyde place voyde Were not also Barnabas Act. 14. Epaphroditus Phil. 2. Andronicus and Iunia Rom. 16. called Apostles I might therefore as wel reason thus Paule Barnabas c. were called to be Apostles when there was no place voyde Ergo some maye be called to the preaching of the Gospell though they haue no certayne cure But let vs sée how you will iustifie this assertion that there are no ordinarie ministers ecclesiasticall which be not locall and tyed to one congregation c. For I vtterly denie it in that sense that you speake it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 42. Sect. 5. And that it may the better appeare that those functions doe onely remayne whiche are appoynted to one certayne place and that the Reader maye haue the clearer and playner vnderstanding of all this matter all the whole ecclesiasticall function maye be well deuided first into extraordinarie or those that endured for a time and into ordinarie whiche are perpetuall Of the firste sorte are the Apostles and Euangelistes whiche the Lorde vsed for a time as it were for chiefe Masons and principall buylders of his Churche as well to laye the foundations of Churches where none were as also to aduaunce them to suche forwardnesse and height vntill there might be gotten for the finishing of the buylding and house of the Churche fitte pastors Elders and Deacons And that beeing done they went from those places into others which thing may be perceyued by the continuall storie of the Actes of the Apostles and by diuers sentences which are founde in the Epistles of S. Paule And therfore also when the Churches haue bin by Antichrist euen rased from the foundations God hath stirred vp Euangelists euen immediatly by his spirite without any calling of men to restore his Churches agayne of whiche sorte was Master Wickli e in our Countrey M. Hus and Hierome of Prage in Bohemia Luther and Zuinglius in Germanie c. And after this sort God may at his good pleasure work when he purposeth to set in his Gospell in any nation where the whole face of the earth is couered with the darknesse of ignorance and want of the knowledge of God Io. Whitgifte Althoughe you can not warrant by the Scriptures this distinction of ordinarie and In what respect the Apostolical function was extraordinary extraordinarie ecclesiasticall functions yet I thinke the Apostolicall function was extraordinarie in respect that it had for the time certayne especiall properties as to beare witnesse of the resurrection of Christ and of his assention whiche they dyd sée with their eyes also to plant to found Churches Likewise to go throughout the whole worlde These I say were temporall and extraordinarie and so was the Apostleship in this respect but yet ordinarie in respect of their chiefe function which was to preache the Gospell and to gouerne the Churches whiche they had planted Likewise Euangelistes haue an ordinarie function neyther is there any cause why it should be called a temporall office but onely in respect of writing the Gospell for there is none that thinketh the office of preaching to be eyther extraordinarie or temporall But I pray you let me aske you one question why should not the office of Seniors be aswell extraordinarie and temporall as the office of an Apostle or an Euangelist for as you saye that the Apostleship and Euangelistship remayned vntil there might be gotten for the finishing of the buylding and house of the Churche fytte Pastors c. So say I that the office of Seniors and Elders might remayne in the Churche vntill there were christian Princes and Magistrates by whome the people of God might be kepte in peace and quietnesse and the Churches of Christ more perfectly gouerned And wel assured I am that there are as good reasons for this as there are for the other For as in the place of the Apostles Euangelistes c. are succéeded Bishops Pastors Doctors so I may say that in the place of Elders and Seniors are come Christian Princes and Magistrates As for this parte of the Apostles function to visite suche Churches as were before planted and to prouide that suche were placed in them as were vertuous and godly Pastors I knowe it remayneth still and is one of the chiefe partes of What part of the Apostles function remayneth the Bishops function as shall hereafter more at large appeare I graunte that Master Hus Hierome of Prage c. were stirred vp euen by God to preache his truthe and open the doore of his worde agayne yet were they called to some function of the Churche before althoughe that function were for the moste parte wicked and the Church almost wholly corrupted with superstition and errors But why you shoulde rather call them Euangelistes than Apostles Prophetes Pastors or Doctors I knowe not especially séeing some of them had ordinarie charges Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 1. Of this sorte of extraordinarie functions are the Prophets also which besides a singular dexteritie and readinesse of expounding the Scriptures had also the gifte of telling things to come whiche bicause it is not nowe ordinarily I thinke there is none will denie but it is an extraordinarie calling for the other two of the Apostles and Euangelistes it shall appeare more at large hereafter by occasion giuen
peeces their Images sayth t us we make it Calui not now any scruple of conscience to reteine still those Churches which were polluted with Idols and to put them to better vse bycause that whiche is added to the lawe propter consequentiam as they terme it doth not bynde vs. I graunt that all those things which doe tende to the planting of superstition ought to be taken awaye so that by precise vrging of that vvhich is of it selfe indifferent vve be not in to much rigour Superstitious The place is worth the noting it fully ouerthroweth your groundes agaynst the apparell Saint Augustine in that sermon quoted in your margent speaketh against such as professing Christianitie did notwithstanding resort to the temples of the Paganes at their solemnities and feasts thinking it sufficient if they did in heart detest the Idols though in bodie they were present in their temples and at their feasts much like vnto those that thinke it sufficient to serue God in heart though in bodie they be present at the Masse and Idolatrous seruice That this is the meanyng of Augustine in that place it may euidently appeare to all suche as will peruse it vpon this Augustine bringeth in these wordes If you aske howe the Paganes may be ouercome wonne and illuminated howe they maye be brought to saluation forsake all their solemnitie let goe Aug. serm 6. de verbis domi in Matth. theyr toyes and then if they agree not vnto the truth let them be ashamed of theyr fewnesse It was in Saint Augustines time as it is in some places at this day where in some one citie there be Churches both for the Gospell and for the masse also it is not méete that suche as professe the Gospell shoulde resort to the Masse for besydes that they offende God in beyng presente at Idolatrous seruice they also giue occasion to the Papistes to thinke better of theyr Masse bycause they sée it frequented of suche as seeme to professe the Gospell and thereby also persuade them selues of a greater multitude that embraceth their Religion wherefore one way to conuert them is to absteine from their Churches that they may vnderstand both our misliking of theyr seruice and their owne paucitie also And that this is ment of by Augustine in that place it may also appeare by these wordes in the same Sermon The Paganes saye in their heartes why forsake we our Gods seeing the Christians them selues worship them as well as we And agayne Beholde against what true God thou doest offende whyles thou fallest downe before false Gods S. Augustine speaketh not one worde in all that sermon of ceremonies or any thing else taken from the gentils and by Christians conuerted to other vses muche lesse of any suche matter as we haue newe in question And therfore you do but abuse the Reader by reciting certaine words of S. Augustine without the circumstances which open the true meaning of them I praise your wit for saying that such things may be conuerted to priuate vses for denie that as S. Augustine plainely doth and I shall be bound vnto you that your doctrine shall haue the fewer fautors by 3. parts for surely many that condemne your opinions in heart for hope of priuate commoditie that might come vnto them by the dissolution of colledges Churches c. doe séeme very wel to like of them Wherfore teach them if you be wise that such things may be conuerted to their priuate vses whatsoeuer Augustine saith to the contrarie Augustine saith also that they maye be conuerted in honorem Dei vnto the honour of God What say you to that as for your denying that that vse is in distinguishing eyther the ministers from other men c. bicause it is but your bare denyall against al the proofes alleaged I will with affirming the contrarie passe it ouer Chap. 5. the fourth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 58. Sect. 2. 3. Peter Martyr in the Epistle before mentioned touching this matter P. Martyr writeth on this sort But let vs consider your other argument that is to saye It is not lavvfull to vse these kinde of vestures bicause they vvere inuented by the Popes tyrannie In this poynt I doe not vvell perceiue hovve it may be affirmed for a suertie that vve can vse nothing that perteined to the Pope and is vsed in Temples of Idols conuer ted to the wor ship of God Poperie Truely vve must take good heede that vve bring not the Churche of Christ into suche bondage that it may not vse any thing that the Pope vsed It is very true that our forefathers toke the temples of Idols turned Reuenewes them into holy Churches vvhere Christ should be vvorshipped And they tooke also the salarie and reuenevves consecrated to the Idols of the gentils to their vvicked shevves and playes and to their holy votaries virgines and transposed it to finde the Ministers of the Church And yet all these things dyd not onely seruice vnto Antichrist but vnto the deuill yea the holy Ecclesiasticall Phrases of Poetes vvriters dyd not sticke to take the verses of Poetes vvhiche had bene dedicated to Muses and to other diuerse Gods and goddesses for to be played in playes and spoken in shevves to obteine the fauour of theyr Gods I say they did nothing sticke or feare to vse them vvhen it seemed to them conuenient imitating Paule the Apostle vvho stucke nothyng at all to rehearse for his purpose Menander Aratus and Epimenides and that he dyd in intreating the holy Scripture apply prophane vvordes to set forth Gods Religion VVe reade also hovve that vvine vvas consecrated Wine bread ▪ c. consecrated to Idols vnto Bacchus bread vnto Ceres vvater vnto Neptune oyle vnto Minerua letters vnto Mercurie song vnto the Muses and vnto Apollo and manie other things Tertullian rehearseth in his booke intituled de corona militis Christiani vvhere almost he entreateth thys selfe same argumente yet for all that vve sticke not to vse all these things freely asvvell in holye as in prophane vses although at one time or other before they had bene consecrated to Idols and to deuils Hetherto Peter Martyr T. C. Page 55. Sect. 5. To all these things that M. Martyr reckeneth vp of reuenewes and wages verses wyne breade oyle water which beyng consecrated vnto Idols are wel vsed Tertullian answereth in the same booke whereout a number of these are taken when he sayth that we oughte to admit a participation of those things which bryng eyther a necessitie or profit in the vse of them but we deny these things thus vsed are either necessarie or profitable And therefore in steade of temples tithes wine c. if you would haue matched the surplice well you shoulde haue sayde sensors tapers holy bread holy water and such like Io. Whitgifte Master Martyr vsed these examples to proue that the surplice and other apparell of Ministers nowe vsed for that is the matter he handleth
nothyng in it neyther for the temple nor for the vessels of the temple nor or the beautie of it but according to the forme that was enioyned him as appeareth in the first of the kings and the second of the Chronicles And in the restoring of that temple zechiell is witnes e how the ange l by the commaundement of God doth parte by parte appoint all to b done bothe in the temple and in the furniture therof Io. Whitgifte These two examples of the Tabernacle and of the temple tende to one ende and might more aptly haue bene alleaged in the title of Ceremonies than of the gouernment of the Church bicause whatsoeuer is here spoken of ither of them perteyneth to Ceremonies and to the worshipping of God and not to externall policie and gouernment of the church and therfore moste vnaptely alleadged agaynste Archebishops The Replier 〈◊〉 by his own wordes Pag. 22. sect 1. c. But what néede I labor much in this matter when you your self in the. 22. pag. of your booke offer for one thing that I shall bring lefte to the order of this Church to shewe me that the Israelites had twentie that were vndecided by the expresse woorde And it is certaine that both Dauid and Salomon appoynted orders the one about the Tabernacle the other about the Temple whyche wée reade not in Scripture they were commaunded to doe And Dauid appoynted degrées of officers in the Temple and Salomon workmen and ouerseers whereof we doe not reade that they had any speciall commaundement 1. Par. 24. Chap. 5. the seuenth Diuision T. C. Page 63. Sect. 4. Nowe if the holie Ghoste in figures and tropes doth so carefully and as a man may speake uriously comprehende all things in the truth it selfe howe muche more is it to be thoughte that he hath performed this If in the shadowes how much more in the body If he haue doone this in earthly things and whiche shall perishe howe is it to be thought that he hathe 〈◊〉 performed it in heauenly and those whyche abyde for euer And then tell me what are those tymes of which it was sayd the Mel ▪ sias when he commeth will tell vs all Is it a lyke thing that he which did not only appoynt the temple and the tabernacle but the ornaments of them would not only neglect the ornaments of the church but also that without the which as we are borne in hand it cannot long stand Shal we thinke that he which remembred the barres there hath forgotten the pillers here or he y t there remembred the pinnes did here forget the maister builders how he should there remember the besoms and here forget Archbishops if any had bene needful that he should there make mention of the snuffers to purge the lights and here passe by the lightes themselues And to conclude that he shuld make mention there of the moates and here say nothing of the beames there recken vp the gnattes here kepe silence of the camel es What is this else but that which Aristotle sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to looke to smal things and not to looke to great which if it can not fall into the Lorde l t it be a shame to say that the chief piller and vpholder of the Church is not expressed in the scripture nor can not be concluded of it Io Whitgifte You haue before confessed Pag. 15. that certaine things are left to the order of the Church T. C. reth by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bycause they are of that nature which are varied by times places persons other circumstāces 〈◊〉 which is sufficient to answere whatsoeuer you haue here spokē of the care ulnesse of the holy ghost in the truth it selfe aboue figures and tropes Although there is no doubte but the holy ghost was as carefull in the one as in the other and loued the one people as wel as the other and therefore it may be an argument à paribus but not minori as you seeme to make it I haue told you before also why god did more particularly prescribe euery ceremonie to the Israelites in the law than he hath done to his p ople in the Gospell God hath in his Gospell performed and fulfilled all the tropes and sig res of the law Iob 2 whatsoeuer Christ which is the Messias hath told vs all things that are necessary to saluation Iohn 20. and so is that place in the. 4. of Iohn to be vnderstanded We make not an Archbyshop necessary to saluation but profitable for the gouernment of the Church and therefore consonant to the word of God as shall be declared We know the Church of Christ is not builded vpon any man eyther as vpon foundation or pillers if we speake properly but vpon Christ himselfe and his worde which remaine vnmoueable we know also that the same Church may stand wit out the external help of man But yet hath God appointed functions in his Churche both ecclesiasticall and ciuill as meanes to kéepe it in externall peace di cipline and or er and though he hath not expressed the names yet hath he allowed the 〈◊〉 Among men the chiefe piller that vpholdeth the Churche is the Christian prince and magistrate and yet where haue you in the Gospell any such expresse mention made thereof as there is in the appointing of the tabernacle of Beesoms snuffers c. whiche e amples you vse in derision suche is your modestie and reuerence We knowe that all things nec ssary to saluation are much more plainly expressed in the Gospell than in the law We are also well assured that Christ in his word hath fully and playnly comprehended all things requisite to faith and good life but yet hath he committed certaine orders of ceremonies and kind of gouernmente to the disposition of his Churche the generall rules giuen in his worde being obserued and nothing being done contrary to his will and commaundement therein conteyned as haue proued before Chap. 1. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 63. Sect. 5. Moreouer (a) A 〈◊〉 ma or these ministeries without the which the Church is fully builded and broughte to perfec ion and complete vnitie are (b) An vntr minor not to be reteyned in the Church but without the ministeries of Archbyshop c. the Churche may be fully bu lded and brought to perfection therefore these ministeries are not to be reteyned Io. Whitgifte Your minor is vntrue For the Church in a kingdome where it hath an external gouernmēt where it includeth both good and bad where it is molested with contentious persons with schismes heresies c. cannot enioy complete vnitie nor be perfectly The maior tendeth to th shu ing out of the 〈◊〉 magistrate The Church must not only be brought to persection but also be preserued therem ▪ gouerned touching the externall forme and gouernment without such offices and gouernours Your maior also conteyneth daungerous doctrine including as well the christian magistrate
woulde haue them notwithstanding to absteyne from as from swines flesh Conies c. to the ende that he might haue them seuered as appeareth by S. Paule by a great and high wall from other Nations Eph. 2. And therefore it is verie vnlike that S. Peter woulde frame the ministerie of the Gospel which is no ceremonie but of the substance of the gospel by the example of the heathenish and ydolatrous functions If one had sayde that the Lorde had shapen this common wealth by the paterne of other common wealthes although it had bene most vntrue all other flourishing common wealthes of Athens Lacedemon and Rome borowing their good lawes of the Lordes common wealth yet had it beene more tollerable but to say he framed the ministerie of the Gospell by the Priesthoode of Idolatrie is to fet chastitie out of Sodome and to seeke for heauen in hell And if so be that the Lord had delighted in this Hierarchie he woulde rather haue taken of his owne than borowed of others of his owne Church than of the Synagog of Satan For vnder the law besydes the Leuites there were Priests and aboue them a high Priest Io. Whitgifte God gaue vnto the Israelites a king though other Nations had so in like maner The Israelites had some things like to the Gentiles And he ordeyned degrées of Priests among them to offer vnto him Sacrifices though the Gentiles had the like and what inconuenience could there come by placing Archbyshops which shoulde faythfully preache the worde of God and carefully gouerne the Church of Christ euen in those places where there were Archiflamines who did deface Christianitie and persecute the Christians For by these meanes there could no harme come vnto them as there might haue done to the Israelites by vsing of such things of the Gentiles as he forbad vnto them but the contrarie For this was a meanes to plucke them from all their superstition and Idolatrie Neither is this in any respect a framing of the ministerie of the Gospell by the examples of Idolatrous heathnish functions Except you will say also that bycause the Gentiles had Flamines and the Christians had Bishops therefore the Christian Bishops were framed according to the example of the Gentiles Flamines If you cannot say so truely in Bishops neyther can you iustly affirme it of Archbishops for the reason is all one Do you thinke this to be a good collection where in the Popes time there was a Massing priest now is there placed a Minister of the Gospell Ergo the ministerie of the Gospell is framed according to the example of Massing priests And yet thus do you conclude that bycause there are nowadays Archbishops where before there were Archiflamines therfore the ministerie of the Gospell is framed according to the heathnish and ydolatrous functions Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 68. Sect. 1. And to say that Peter appoynted Archbishops and Bishops * by the example of Idolaters No man hat sayde so Esay 2. is after a sort to make the law to come out of Egypt or Babilon and not out of Sion or Ierusalem as the Prophete sayth Io. Whitgifte Neyther Clement in that Epistle nor Polidore in that booke nor Gratian dist 80. sayth that Peter appoynted Archbyshops and byshops by the example of Idolaters but this onely they say that in those Cities where there were before Archiflamines there were placed Archbyshops and where th re were Flamines there byshops There is greate difference betwixt their kinde of speach and yours Howsoeuer the authors please you or displease you yet report their w rdes truly M. Foxe Tom. 1. Pag. 14. is of this iudgement that where before there were Archiflamines c. there were placed Patriarches c. His woordes be these Thus it is made playne how the M. Foxe tom 1. Pag. 14. byshop of the firste seate or firste byshop or Primate is none other but he which then was called Patriarche and belonged not onely to the Churche of Rome but to all such cities and places whereas before among the Gentiles were Primiflamines c. Dist. 80. cap. rbes loca in illis Hitherto M. Foxe Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 68. Sect. 1. 2. 3. You say after that Iames was an Archbyshop if he were he was the fyrst and placed ouer the Iewes And although S. Peter might to gayne the Gent es be c ntent to vse their dolatrous functions with a little chaunge of their names yet there is none so madde to thinke that he woulde translate any such function from the Gentiles to the Iewes which were neuer before accustomed with any such Flamines or Archiflamines And this I dare generally and at once say against Math. 5. 10. 9. you and your Element that the Lorde translated diuerse things out of the Lawe into the Gospell as the Presbetery or eldership excommunication and the office of Deacons as it is thought for that the Sadducees of whom so often mention is made in the gospell are thought to haue had that office to prouide for the poore for those that knowe the Hebrue tong do vnderstande that Tsadi im 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Tsidkah do not onely signifie Iustices and iuste menne but also almes and almesmen I say these and others more translated from the lawe vnto the gospell but neyther you nor your Clement shall euer be 〈◊〉 to hew that the Lord euer translated any thing from Gentelisme into the gospell Wee reade in the Actes that all the Gentiles were commaunded to conforme themselues vnto Act. 15. the Iewes in the ab ayning from bloud and strangled meate for a tyme but we can n er finde that the Iewes were commaunded to conforme themselues to the Gentiles in their 〈◊〉 the reason whereof is bycause the one was sometyme the lawe of God and therefore he that had conscience in it was to be borne with and the other came from menne and out of their forge which the L rd would neuer g ue so much honor vnto as to make other men by any meanes subiect vnto them Io. Whitgifte If you had not learned that poynt of Sophistrie which is called Petitio princip j whereof I haue so o tentimes told you without doubt you had lacked much matter and your booke would haue ben very thinne For all this adoe in this place is nothing but discanting vpon a false playne song The offices of an Archbishop and Byshop are no Idolatrous functions but Christian and méete both for Iewe and Gentile conuerted vnto Christ neyther are they translated from the Gentiles but grounded vpō the woorde of God practised in the Apostles time approued by the best councells as is declared in the answere to the Admonition and shall be more amplie hereafter occasion being offered Wherefore all this that you haue here sayde the ground being taken away serueth for no purpose Your coniecture of the Deaconship to be taken from the
to shewe that in citing him in this manner and forme that I doe I doe no otherwyse than other godly and learned men haue done You shal vnderstande ere I come to an ende that I haue not alleadged him for any néede Your argument to proue that Iames was no Archebishop bicause Eusebius and other doe call him Bishop and not Archebishop is of the same nature that your other arguments be that is ab authoritate negatiuè and therefore must be sent away with the same answere Whether the Apostles placed Iames and Simeon at Ierusalem or no is not the question But you are something deceyued in your quotation for you should in the place of the. 22. chapter of Eusebius haue noted the. 11. chapter The place of Ireneus thoughe it make not agaynst any thing that I haue spoken if it were as you doe alleage it yet muste I tell you that it is by you not truely vnderstoode For Ireneu dothe not saye that the Apostles dyd togither in euery place Irenaeu appoynte Bishops but he sayth Secundum successiones Episcoporum quibus illi eam quae in vnoqueque loco est ecclesiam tradiderunt According to the succession of Bishops to whome they committed the Churche that was in euery place Meaning that euery one of the Apostles dyd appoynt Bishops in those Churches whiche they had planted as S. Paule did at Ephesus and Creta And notwithstanding that in some Churches the Apostles togither dyd place Bishops yet that in other Churches whiche they planted Sometime one Apostle did appoynt Bishops Tertulli de praescript they dyd the same seuerally it is manyfest not onely by these examples of Timothie and Titus but of sundry other whereof we maye reade in ecclesiasticall histories and namely of * Policarpus made Bishop of Smirna by S. Iohn And you your selfe testifie the same of S. Iohn out of Eusebius euen in the nexte section Moreouer it can not be gathered eyther out of the wordes of Ireneus or any other ecclesiasticall historie that the Apostles dyd place Bishops any where but in the chiefe and principall Townes and Cities committing vnto them the gouernment of other Uillages and Townes and the appoynting of seuerall Pastors for them as it is also euident in the foresayde examples of Timothie and Titus and the wordes of Ireneus importe the same But if they had in euery Hamlet placed Pastors yet dothe it not followe but that there mighte be some one in a Dioces or Prouince by whome these Pastors shoulde be directed As Timothie at Ephesus Titus at Crete Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. vlt. And heere you put me in remembrance of an other argument agaynst the Archbishop which I will frame after this sorte (a) The maior false If there should be any Archbishop in any place the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the person or minister and his excellencie or in respect of the magnificence of the place but the most excellent ministers that euer were in the most famous places were no Archebishops but Bishops onely therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any Archebishop For if there were euer minister of a congregation worthy that was Iames. If there were euer any Citie that ought to haue this honor as that the minister of it shoulde haue a more honorable title than the ministers of other cities and townes that was Ierusalem where the sonne of God preached and from whence the Gospell issued out into all places And afterwarde that Ierusalem decayed and the Churche there Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bin since whiche also deserued great honour for that there the Disciples were first called Christians but neyther was that called the first and chiefest Churche neyther the ministers of it called the Arche or principall Bishops Io. Whitgifte It is a straunge matter that you should so grossely erre in making arguments séeing you haue taken vpon you so great skill in that Arte. But I will not be occupied in examining the forme of it Your maior is not true for suche offices maye be appoynted rather in the respecte of the time and of the persons that are to be gouerned Why these offices are appoynted than of the worthynesse of the minister or the dignitie of the plate and therefore your maior doth not conteyne a perfect and sufficient distribution Agayne the worthinesse of the person and the dignitie of the place be not at all the causes why suche offices shoulde be appoynted in the Churche but the suppression of sectes the peace of the Churche and the good gouernment of the same The worthinesse of the person may make him méete for suche an office and the place may be conuenient for suche officers to remayne in but neyther of them bothe can be a sufficient cause why suche offices should be appoynted I knowe the worthiest cities haue had the preheminence in suche matters but it was bicause they were the most méetest places for that purpose and the place dothe onely adde one péece of title to the office but it is not the cause of the office Lastly you haue not yet proued that there was no Archbishops in those places or that Iames had not that office Chap. 2. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Lin. 9. This is contrar to that whiche was immediatly affirmed before And Eusebius to declare that this order was firme and durable sheweth in the thirde booke 13. chapter that Sainct Iohn the Apostle whiche ouerliued the residue of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in euery Citie Io. Whitgifte This is no reason at all S. Iohn ordeyned Bishops in euery Churche therfore there was no one Bishop superiour vnto them to gouerne and directe them in matters of The office of an archbishop in S. Iohn discipline order a d doctrine if occasion serued I thinke that S. Iohn him selfe was directer and gouernour of them all and in effecte their Archebishop And that dothe manifestly appeare in that thirde booke and. 23. chapter of Eusebius For thus he sayth In those dayes Iohn the Apostle and Euangelist whome the Lorde loued lyued Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 2 ▪ as yet in Asia whiche did gouerne the Churches there after he was returned out of the Isle from banishement after the death of Domitian And a little after he saythe That he went beeing desired ad vicina Gentium loca vt partim constitueret Episcopos partim tota ecclesias componeret partim clerum ex his quos spiritus sanctus iudicasset sorte deligeret Vnto the places of the Gentiles adioyning partly that he mighte appoynte Bishops partly that he might establishe whole Churches partly that he mighte by lotte choose suche into the Cleargie as the holy Ghost shoulde assygne So that whether he had the name of Archbishop or no certayne it is that he had the gouernment and direction of the rest and that he appoynted Bishops and other Ministers Eusebius dothe
Bishop be ouer one diocesse one rchbishop ouer one Prouince Wherfore I conclude thus It is necessary y t among the cler ie some should be in authoritie ouer the rest and therfore there may be both Archbishops Bishops but I know you wil answer y t there may be gouernment without these degrées then say I vnto you againe stand not so much in your owne c ceyt this order is most auncient in the Church it is confirmed by the best and noblest Councels it is allowed by the best learned fathers it hath the pattern from the practise of the Apostles a l whiche hath bin shewed before it is most méet for this state and kingdome and therfore be no wilful in a new deuise the triall wherof was neuer as yet the maner wherof is vnknown to your selfe and the end no doubt mere confusion Your welfauoured and 〈◊〉 speeches together with your accustomed cōtempt I omit here as I doe in other places Chap. 3. the. 41. Diuision T. C. Pag. 83. Sect. 3. The moste therfore that he can conclude of this for the ministerie is that there must be minister that shall rule and people that shall be obedient and hereby he can 1. of proue that ther should be any degrees amongst the ministers and ecclesiasticall gouernours vnlesse he wyl say peraduenture that as there are vnder magistrates and a kyng aboue them all so there shoulde be vnder ministers and one minister aboue all * But he must remember that it is not necessary in a common Note this suspicious speache of the kinde of gouernment wealth that there should be one ouer all for that there are other good common wealthes wherin many haue lyke power and authoritie And further if bicause there is one kyng in a lande aboue all he wil conclude there should be one Archbishop ouer all I say as I haue sayd that it is not against any word of God which I know although it be inconuenient but that there may be one Cesar ouer all the worlde and yet I thinke M. Doctor wyll not say that there maye be one Archebishop ouer all the worlde Io. Whitgifte Why there ought to be superioritie among ministers as well as other The gouernmente of the churche in a Christi n cōmon wealth oughte to bee according to the forme ther in vsed Yes I wil cōclude that ther ought to be degrées of superioritie amōg y e ministers also bicause they labour of imperfections as wel as other mē do especally of pride arrogancie vainglorie which ingender schismes here 's es contentions as the examples of all times and ages euen from the Apostles to this time declare I am persuaded y t the externall gouernment of the church vnder a christiā Magistrate must be according to the kinde forme of the gouernment vsed in the cōmon wealth else how can you make the Prince supreme gouernour of all states causes ecclesiastical wil you so deuide the gouernment of y e Churche from the gouernment of the cōmon wealth that the one being a monarchie the other must be a Democratie or an Aristocratie this were to deuide one realme into two and to spoyls the Prince of the one halfe of hir iurisdiction and authoritie If you will therefore haue the Quéene of Englande rule as Monarche ouer all hir dominions then muste you also giue her leaue to vse one kinde and forme of gouernment in all and euery parte of the same and so to gouerne the Church in Ecclesiasticall affaires as she doth the common wealth in ciuile But you say that I must remember that it is not necessarie in a common welth that there T. C. speaketh suspiciously of gouernment should be one ouer all I say that you must remember that in this cōmon wealth it is necessarie y t one shuld be ouer al except you wil trāsform aswel y e state of y e kingdom as you would of y e church which is not vnlike to be your meaning for not long after you adde that the common wealth must be stamed a cording to y e church as the hangyngs to the house the gouernmēt therof w t her gouernment c. not contrary meaning y t the gouernmēt of the cōmon wealth ought not to be monarchical but either democratical or Aristocratical bicause as you say the gouernment of the Church ought to be such What this in time wil bréed in this common wealth especially when it cōmeth to the vnderstanding of the people who naturally are so desirous of innouations I referre it to the iudgement of those that can and ought best to consider it The vnlike linesse that is betwixt one Cesar being ouer all the world of one archbishop being ouer all the world I haue shewed before they be most vnlike yet this is but a friuolous vaine supposition M. Caluin in his Inst. cap. 8. sect 96. doth say that it is absurdissimum most absurd Chap. 3. the 42. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 71. Sect. 4. It is not to be denied but that ther is an equalitie of al ministers of Equalitie among ministers touching minist rie gods word quoad ministeriū touching the ministerie for they haue allike power to preach the word to minister the sacraments that is to say the word preached or the sacramēts ministred is as effectual in one in respect of the ministerie as it is in an other But quoad ordinem politiam touching order gouernment ther always hath bin must be degrees and superioritie among them For the churche of God is not a cōfused congregation but ruled directed aswel by discipline policie in matters of regimēt as by the word of God in matters of faith T. C. Pag. 84. Sect. 1. 2. Nowe M. Doctor cōmeth to his olde hole where he would fayn hide himself and with him all the ambition tyrannie excesse of authorttie which is ioyned with these functions of Archebishop and bishop as they are now vsed this his hole is that al the ministers are equall with bishops Archbishops as touching the ministerie o the word sacramentes but not as touching policie gouernment The Papists vse the very self same (a) This distinction is allowed of those that be sarre from Papistrie distinction for the maintenance of the Popes tyrannie and ambition and other their hierarchie M. Doctor hath put out the mark concealed the name of the Papists so with a little change of wordes as it were with certayn newe colours he would deceyue vs. For the Papistes saye that euery syr Iohn or hedge Prieste hathe as greate authoritie to sacrifyce and offer for the quycke and the deade and to minister the Sacramentes as the Pope of Rome hath but for gouernment and for order the Bishoppe is aboue a Prieste the Archebishoppe aboue a bishop and the Pope aboue them all But I haue (b) You haue no yet declared 〈◊〉
the whole scope of the Epistle and the playne and euidente wordes of the texte for what is this but to giue Timothie superioritie and gouernment ouer the other Ministers of Ephesus to saye vnto hym aduersus presbyterum Agaynst a Minister receyue no occusation c and as thys authoritie of Iudgement is not onely gyuen vnto Timothie but to all Byshops of like callyng so that also of teachyng that godlynesse is profitable to all thyngs c. perteyneth to all Ministers of the worde generally and not to Timothie alone This is onely the difference that the firste is common to Timothie wyth all other Byshops of like iurisdiction the other common to him with all other ministers of the worde You knowe that euery Pastor or other Minister of the worde hath not other Pastors and Ministers of the worde vnder hym that it maye be sayde vnto hym aduersus presbyteros c. as it is here sayde to Timothie for I haue proued before that presbyter dothe signifie the Ministers of the worde and Sacramentes and shall haue occasion to speake more of it hereafter You saye that there is an hundreth suche things in the Epistles of Timothie and Titus ▪ I thinke that there is not one hundreth seuerall preceptes in all the thrée Epistles These stoute and hyperbolicall bragges wyth so manyfest resisting of the playne sense and meanyng of the Scriptures argueth an euill conscience and a mynde so addicted to errour that it will not be reformed Manye things in these Epistles perteyne to all Christians many things be proper to Byshops suche as Timothie was and many common to all Ministers But this aduersus presbyteros ▪ c. muste néedes to proper be those that haue vnder them other Ministers committed to theyr gouernment which euery Pastor hath not Chap. 3. the. 58. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 3. And Epiphanius Lib. 3. Tom. 1. contra Haeresim Aerij proueth Timothie his superioritie Epiphanius ouer the rest by this selfe same place T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 3. As for Epiphanius * This is your practise to discredite the author that speaketh against you it is knowen of what authoritie he is in thys place when as by Aerius sides he goeth about to pricke at the Apostle ▪ whilest he goeth about to confute the Apostle which maketh a distinction and difference betwene those which the Apostle maketh one that is a Bishop and elder and to spare the credit of Epiphanius it were better lay that opinion vpon some Pseudepiphanius which we may doe not without great probabilitie seyng * Augustine sayth that the Ad quod vult deum true Epiphamus vttereth all after a storie fashion and doth not vse anye disputation or reasoning for the truth agaynst the falshood and this Epiphanius is very full of arguments and reasons the choise whereof M. Doctor hath taken Io. Whitgifte I haue not heard any probable reason alleaged of any why these bookes of Epiphanius The writings of Epiphanius contra 80. haereses not counterfeite should be suspected whether they be his or no seeyng they be both learned and very auncient mentioned also of sundry olde writers But to omitte all other proofes I wyll onely vse the iudgement at this tyme of the authors of the Centuries who are to be credited in suche matters bycause they haue diligently and carefully laboured in them their opinion of these bookes of Epiphanius Cent. 4 cap. 10. is thys Nunc de scriptis c. Nowe we wyll speake of hys bookes of the which that worke against Cent. 4. cap. 10. the foure score heresyes is most noble which booke he hymselfe in his Epistle to Acacius and Paulus Ministers And in his booke called Anacephaleosis calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Of the which writing Augustine in his booke ad quod-vult-deum maketh this mention Our Epiphanius Byshop of Cyrus sayth he which dyed not long since speaking of foure score heresies wrote also himselfe sixe Bookes making mention of all things after an Historicall maner disputing nothing either against the falsehood or with the truthe They be but short bookes and if they were all made in one yet were it not to be compared to ours or to diuerse other mens bookes in length Out of the which words it is euident that Augustine neither had nor at any time dyd see that worke which Epiphanius intituled Panarium for Epiphanius is very long in recountyng the historie as concerning the beginning the endeuour countrey of the heretikes the occasiō of the heresie the successe increase and suche lyke throughout euery heresie Then is he very long in confuting and condemning the heresies by true Scriptures and the interpretation of them wherfore it should seeme that Augustine had belyke onely the arguments prefixed before the Tomes of bookes of Epiphanius whiche he dothe therefore call shorte bookes or at the least had his booke called Anacephaleosis which is the summe of his worke called Panarium Cornarius that writeth Cornarius the Preface before this booke of Epiphanius is of the same iudgement and addeth these wordes VVherefore eyther Augustine dyd not see this worke of Epiphanius or the right worke of Augustine is not extant but loste or else Augustine dyd not in deede performe that whiche he promised I can reade of none that doubteth whether these bookes were Epiphanius his or no. And certaynely this kinde of answering is nexte the worst especially when it is vsed agaynst suche approued authors And bicause all men may vnderstande what Epiphanius wordes and reasons be Aerius here sie in denying the difference betwixt a Be shop priell ▪ Epi. li. 3. 〈◊〉 haeres 75 ▪ whiche in déede pinche you very néere for he calleth you heretikes I will declare them as I haue there founde them First he setteth downe the heresie of Aērius in these words His talke was more outrageous than becōmed a man and he sayd what is a Bishop to a Priest he nothing differeth from him for there is but one order and the same honor and dignitie The Bishop layeth on his handes and so dothe the Priest the Bishop ministreth baptisme and so dothe the priest the Bishop sayth diuine seruice and so doth the Priest the Bishop sitteth in his throne and so dothe the Priest In this he hathe deceyued many and they vse him for their captayne Then dothe he a little after confute this heresie with Aerius reasons on this sorte To saye that a Bishop and a Priest is equall howe can it be possible for the order of Bishops is the begetter of fathers for it ingendreth fathers to the Churche the order of Priests not beeing able to beget fathers dothe beget sonnes to the Churche by the sacrament of Baptisme but not fathers or teachers and howe is it possible for him to ordeyne a Priest not hauing imposition of hands to electe or to saye that he is equall with a Bishop but phantasticalnesse and emulation deceyued the
authorem vniuersorum Dominum Episcopum autem vt Sacerdotum Principem imagi em Dei ferentem Dei quidem per Principatum Christi verò per Sacerdotium Honor God as the author and Lorde of all thinges and a Bishop as the chiefe of Priestes bearing the Image of God of God bicause of his superioritie of Christ by reason of his Priesthoode And a little after Let laye men be subiecte to Deacons Deacons to Priests and Priestes to Bishops the Bishop to Christ. And agayne Let no man doe any thing vvhiche perteyneth to the Churche vvithout the consente of the Bishop And agayn He that attēpteth to do any thing vvithout the Bishop breaketh peace and confoundeth good order The like saying he hath in his Epistle ad Magnesianos These three Epistles doth Eusebius make mention of Lib. 3. cap. 35. 36. and Hiero. de viris illustribus T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. It is no maruell although you take vp the authors of the Admonition for wante of Logike for you vtter great skill your selfe in writing whiche keepe no order but confounde your Reader in that thing which euen the common Logike of the countrey which is reason might haue directed you in for what a confusion of times is this to beginne with Cyprian and then come to Ierome and Chrysostome and after to the Scripture and backe agayne to Ignatius that was before Cyprian which tymes are ill disposed of you and that in a matter wherin it stoode you vpon to haue obserued the order of the tymes Io. Whitgifte Be patient a whyle the matter is not great the Authors be knowne and the The order ob serued in placing the authorities in y e answere antiquitie of them my mynde is of the matter and there is reason why I should thus place them Cyprian telleth the necessitie of suche superioritie and so dothe Chrysostome Hierome the cause and the originall Paule Timothie and Titus be examples hereof Ignatius and the rest are brought in as witnesses of the continuance of such offices and superioritie in the Churche euen from the Apostles Now first to proue the name of these offices not to be Antichristian then to shew the necessitie of the offices thirdly the cause and last of all to declare the vse of the same to haue bene in the Churche euen from S. Paules time to this houre is to kéepe a better order than you shall be able to disorder with all the Logike Rhetorike and hote Eloquence you haue Chap. 3. the. 61. Diuision T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. But as for Ignatius place it is sufficiently answered before in that which was answered to Cyprian his place for when he sayeth the Bishop hath rule ouer all he meaneth no more all in the prouince than in all the world but meaneth that flocke and congregation whereof he is Bishop or minister And when be calleth him Prince of the priests although the title be to excessiue and big condemned by Cyprian and the councel of Carthage yet he meaneth no more the prince of all in the diocesse as we take it or of the prouince than he meaneth the Prince of all the priestes in the world but he meaneth those fellow ministers and elders that had the rule and gouernment of that particular Church and congregation whereof he is a Bishop as the great churches haue for the most part both Elders which gouerne only and ministers also to ayde one an other and the principalitie that he which they called the Byshop had ouer the rest hath bene before at large declared Io. Whitgifte You very lightly shake of Ignatius wordes but they haue more pyth in them if it please you better to consider of them For he maketh degrées of ministers and the Bishop to be the chiefe he placeth Deacons vnder Priests and Priests vnder Bishops so that he giueth to the Bishop superioritie and gouernment ouer both Priests and Deacons which is the grounde of this cause and it being graunted as it muste néedes neyther can this authoritie of Ignatius be auoyded Aerius Heresie falleth and so doth your whole assertion What is ment by Prince of Priests Ignatius himselfe declareth saying Obtinens principatum potestatem supra omnes hauing chieftie and power ouer all How this name may be wel vsed I haue shewed before where I haue also declared the meaning of Cyprians woordes vttered in the hereticall Councell of Carthage and therefore not coumpted in the number of those Councels Chap. 3. the. 62. Diuision T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 1. 2. But M. Doctor doth not remember that whylest he thus reasoneth for the authoritie of the Bishop he ouerthroweth his Archbyshop quite and cleane For Ignatius will haue none aboue the Bishop but Christ and he will haue an Archbishop I see a man cannot well serue two masters but eyther he must displease the one and please the other or by pleasing of one offend the other For M. Doctor would fayne please and vphold both and yet his proo es are such that euery proppe that he setteth vnder one is an axe to strike at the other Io. Whitgifte I remember it very well and I know that an Archbishop is a Bishop and that therfore there may be superioritie among Bishops and yet nothing detracted from the woordes of Ignatius I know likewise that as well the one as the other is cōdemned by you and I am well assured that the proofe of the one is the proofe of the other and therfore M. Doctor may well serue two masters but they be such as be not onely not contrary one to the other but so néerely linked and ioyned togither that what soeuer pleaseth the one doth also please the other M. Doctors proppes and proofes are such as M. T. C. is compelled to vse railing flouting in steade of answering which is a shift but how honest and Christian let the world iudge Chap. 3. the. 63. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 73. Sect. 1. Iustinus Martyr one of the most auncient writers of the Greekes Iustine Martyr in his second Apologie ad Antoninum Pium alloweth this superioritie calleth him that bare rule ouer the other ministers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 2. But that M. Doctor deliteth alwayes where he might fetch at the fountayne to be raking in ditches he needed not to haue gone to Iustine Martyr for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when as S. Paule calleth 1. Tim. 5 ▪ the ministers and Elders by this title And if this place of Iustine make for an Archbishop then in steade of an Archbishop in euery prouince we shall haue one in euery congregation For Iustine declareth there the leyturgie or manner of seruing God that was in euery church vsed of the Christians And I pray you let it be considered what is the office of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 see whether there be any resemblance in the world betweene him and an Archbishop For he placeth his office to be in
made 〈◊〉 Archbishop of Creta Erasmus saith Paulus Titū Archiepiscopū Eras. in arg epi. ad Titum Chryso cap. Tit. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And Lyra likevvise sayth Paulus instituit Titum Archiepiscopum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 authorities like you not Chrysostome sayth Paulus Tito mul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 commisit Novv hauing the gouernment of many Byshops 〈◊〉 may vve call him but an Archbyshop T. C. Pag 93. Sect. 2. For the 〈◊〉 ast reasons against the Archbyshop and Archdeacon although I be well acquayn 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that fauour this cause yet I did neuer heare them before in my life and I beleue ther 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is be his reasons whose they are supposed to be and which did set downe the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Byshop confuteth Notwithstanding the former of these two seemeth to haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be grounded of that place of Logike that sheweth that according as the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of any thing is excellent so are those things that are annexed and adioyned vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I would she simplest should vnderstande what is sayde or written I will willing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reasons the termes whereof are not easily perceyued but of those whyche be 〈◊〉 Io. Whitgifte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you may dilclaime what you lyste for you coulde neuer be brought before The inconstancie of the Replyer his companions 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 downe your reasons in writing and there is no holde at your worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euen at your pleasure and so wil diuerse of your com as 〈◊〉 hath taught But yet you thinke that this former reason hath a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. 〈◊〉 you answere not one word to my L. of Sarums solution which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be very fonde Chap. 4. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Sect. 3. And as for the answere which the Bishop maketh that in place of Apostles Prophets y e giftes of tongues of healing of gouernmēt are brought in vniuersities scholes Bishops Archbishops for scholes vniuersities I haue shewco they haue bin alwayes therfore cannot come in to supply the roome of the Apostles prophets And whether a man consider the schollers that learne or the scholemasters which teach or the orders appoynted for the gouernment of y e scholes they shal be founde to be rather ciuill than Ecclesiasticall and therfore can not come in steade of any Ecclesiasticall ministerie If the Bishop do meane that they come in place of the gift of the tongs and knowledge of the Gospell that was first giuen miraculously I graunt it and then it maketh nothing to this question Io. Whitgifte You haue not shewed that scholes vniuersities were alwayes in the Church of Christ nor you cannot shew that there were any vniuersities or scholes of Christians in the Apostles time I am not disposed to contrary any thing y t is alleaged for vniuersities or scholes neither would I haue you to denie this truth affirmed by my L. of Sarum for it is certeine that God worketh now in the Churche by meanes of vniuersities scholes that which he wrought in the Apostles time myraculously by his Apostles prophets And those gifts of tongs healing gouernment c. which he then inspired at once without teaching doth he now giue by little little vsing y e ministery of scholes vniuersities such like wherfore it is true that the Bishop hath said And wheras you say y e scholes whether a man consider y e schollers that learne or the scholemasters which teach or orders appointed for y e gouernment of y e scholes they shall be founde rather ciuill than Ecclesiasticall If you speake of scholes in a prophane or heathenishe common wealth it is true But if you speake of a Christian kingdome it is most vntrue For in a Christian cōmon wealth scholes are the first nurses that bring vp childrē in y e true knowledge of God of his word prepare many of thē to the ministerie both which are Ecclesiasticall Moreouer if you talke of vniuersities such especially as be in thys Realme of England then whether you consider either y e masters fellowes or schollers or rules or orders appointed for y e gouernment of them they be for y e most parte Ecclesiasticall and therfore those things make greatly for the purpose and you haue said nothing that can ouerthrow them Chap. 4. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Sect. 4. As for Bishops they can not come in place of Apostles or prophets for as much as they were when the Apostles Euangelists prophets were are one of those ministeries which S. Paule mentioneth in the. 4. to the Ephesians being the same that is the pastor Io. Whitgifte I tolde you before that y e part of the Apostles office which consisted in gouernment is now remaining in Archbishops and Bishops as to visite Churches to reforme disorders to suppresse contentions and such like which also they practised in the Apostles time in such places as were committed vnto them by the Apostles as it is euident in Timothie and Titus That Bishops do succeede the Apostles in this function of gouernment it may appeare Bishops succeed Apostles in gouernmēt Cyprian by sundry learned writers Cyprian Lib. 3. Epist. 9. writeth thus But Deacons must remember that the Lord hath chosen Apostles that is to say Bishops and chief gouernours but the Apostles after the Ascention of the Lord into heauen did appoint vnto themselues Deacons Ministers of their Bishopricke and of the Churche And Ambrose in 4. ad Ephe. Ambrose Zuinglius saith Apostoli Episcopi sunt Apostles are Byshops Zuinglius also in his Ecclesiastes saith that the Apostles when they left of goyng from place to place and remayned in one Churche were no more called Apostles but Byshops as Iames at Ierusalem and Iohn at Ephesus Wherby it may appeare that it séemeth straunge neither to the olde wryters nor to to the new to say that Byshops succéede the Apostles and come in place of the Chap. 4. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Page 93. Sect. vlt. There remayneth therfore the Archebishoppe whyche if he came in place of the Prophetes and Apostles as the Bishoppe sayth how commeth it to passe that the bishop sayth by and by out of the authoritie of Erasmus that Titus was an archebishoppe for at that tyme there was bothe Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes If it bee so therefore that the Archbyshoppe muste supplye the wante of Apostles c. howe commeth it to passe hee wayteth not his tyme whylest they were dead but commeth in lyke vnto one which is borne out of tyme and lyke the vntymely and hastye fruite whyche is seldome or neuer holesom And for one to come into the Apostles or Prophetes place requirerh the authoritie of hym whych ordeyned the Apostles c. whyche is the Lorde and his institution in his worde whiche is that whiche we desire to be shewed But hereof I haue spoken before at large Io. Whitgifte It is not vnknowne to suche as
and naught so do you as naughtily 〈◊〉 it Is there no way for the prodigall man to come to liberalitie but by 〈◊〉 no way for the glutton to come to temperance but by pyning himselfe no way for t e 〈◊〉 person to come to the true feare and loue of God but by des eration 〈◊〉 way to come rom poperie to the Gospell but by confusion and 〈◊〉 of all good ord r and gouernment Is this diuinitie In déede uch 〈◊〉 it is that Aristotle a prophane Philosopher doth teach in his Ethikes but not that Chris and his 〈◊〉 do teach in the Gospell The ordinarie meanes whereby a Christian man must come from vice to vert e The ordinarie meanes to draw men from 〈◊〉 from an e treme to a meane is the diligent reading and hearing o the word of God ioyned with earnest and heartie prayers The best way therefore to bring a dronken man to sobrietie is not to perswade him to a superstitious kind of abstinence or fasting but to lay before him out of the word of God the horriblenes of that sinne and the punishment due vnto the same The similitude of a croked sticke is a t to set foorth so croked a precept but not so apt to make manifest the way vnto vertue But I may not blame you for vsing and allowing those prophane rules whiche you so aptly follow and so commonly practise in all your doings Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 1. 2. This wisedome of not conforming it selfe vnto the ceremonies of the Idolaters in things indifferent hath the Church followed in times passed Tertullian sayth O sayth he better is the religion of the heathen for they vse no solemnitie of the Christians ▪ neyther the Lords day neyther the Pentecost and if they knew them they woulde Lib. de Ido latria haue nothing to do with them for they would be afrayd least they shoulde seeme Christians but we are not afraid to be called heathen Io. Whitgifte Tertullian in that place speaketh against such Christians as celebrated the feasts of the Gentiles togither with them remayning in their wicked abuse as it appeareth in the words that go before which are as followeth Nobis quibus sabbata extranea Lib. de Idolatria sunt neomenia feriae aliquādo a Deo dilectae Saturnalia lanuariae Brumae Matro ales frequentantur munera commeant strenae consonant lusus conuiuia constrepunt O melior fides nationum in suam sectam c. The feasts of Saturne of Ianus of Bacchus and of Iuno are frequented of vs vnto whome the sabbats new mones and holydays sometimes beloued of God are straunge gifts and presents are very ri e sportes and banquets keepe a sturre O better is the faith of the Gentiles in their sect c. Wherefore this saying of Tertullian may aptly be alledged against those that frequent the popish solemnities togither with them come to their Churches communicate with them in worshipping their idols and yet professe the knowledge of the Gospell but it can by no meanes be drawen vnto such as withdrawing themselues from suche kind of communicating with them do in their seuerall Churches vse those good things well which the Papists haue abused as the scripture the sacraments prayers and suche like Wherefore you do not well to alledge Tertullians words omitting the circumstances which declare his meaning A man being pr sent at Idolatrous seruice must néedes giue great suspition that he is an Idolater and therfore no man ought to be present at it which in heart condemneth it But as there is no honest and godly man which can call our seruice Idolatrous or Papisticall so is ther none that can suspect vs to be Idolaters or Papists The whole world knowing that both our practise and profession is to the contrary Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 3. Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 17. Constantine the Emperoure speaking of the keeping of the feast of Easter saythe that it is an vnworthy thing to haue any thing common with that most spitefull companie of the Iewes And a little a ter he saith that it is most absurd and against reason that the Iewes shou de vaunt and glory that the Christians could not keepe those things without their doc rine And in another Socrat. li. cap. 9. place it is sayd after this sort It is conuement so to order the matter that we haue nothing common with that nation Io. Whitgifte Constantine speaketh of the feast of Easter which he would not haue obserued according to the manner of the Iewes and yet you know that the Churches in Asia following the examples of Philip and Iohn the Apostles and of Polycarpus and many other godly men did celebrate that feast togyther with the Iewes as it is to be seene in the fifth booke o Eusebius eccle history Wherfore the matter was not of so great Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 23. 24. 25. 26. importance before it was for quietnesse sake determined by the Churche neyther doth Constantine in eyther of the places meane that we should haue nothing common with the Iewes but only that we should haue no suche thinges common with them as are repugnant to Christian libertie or to the truth of the Gospell or such as may cō rme them in their obstinacie and error For if his meaning had bin generally and simply then mighte he haue vtterly abrogated the feast of Easter being no commaundement sor it in the new testament As therefore Cōstantine thought that the Churche had not the feast of Easter common with the Iewes not bycause the thing it selfe was abrogated but the ay altered Euen so the Churche of Englande cannot be said to haue any thing common with the P pisticall Church though it reteine something vsed in the same bycause the manner is changed and certayne circumstances altered or whereas before it was in a straunge tongue nowe it is in a tongue knowne and whereas it was before abused and mixt with superstition now it is rightly vsed and purged from all corruption And therefore although the thing remaine yet bycause the circumstances be altered it is not the same no more than our Sabbat is the Iewes Sabbat and our Easter the Iewes Easter Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 4. 5. 6. The Councels although they did not obserue themselues always in making of decrees thys rule yet haue kept this consideration continually in making their lawes that they woulde haue the Christians differ from others in their ceremonies The Co ncell of Laodicea which was afterward confirmed by the sixt generall Councell decreed Tom. 1. con Lao. can 38 that the Christians should not take vnleauened bread of the Iewes or communicate with their 〈◊〉 Also it was decreed in another Councell that they shoulde not decke their houses with bay 2. To. Braccar can 7 leaues and greene boughes because the Paganes did vse so
confess cap. 5. sayth that deacons did oftentimes supply the office of the Pastors Beza in the administration of the sacraments and celebrating of Mariage And to proue this he quoteth 1. Cor. 1. verse 14. 15. c. and Iohn 4. verse 2. But the thing is manyfest and can not be denyed wherefore you are but disposed to play Iohannes ad oppositum ¶ Of matters touching the Communion Tract 15. Of the orders and ceremonies vsed in the celebration of the Communion Cap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition They had no introite for Celestinus a Pope brought it in about the yere 430. But we haue borrowed ap ce of one out of the Masse booke Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 94. Sect. 1. 2. What you vnderstande heere by the Introite certaynely I knowe The introite not The first thing that we say at the Communion is the Lordes prayer which Celestinus did not inuent but Christe Matth. 6. nor The Apostles began the Lordes supper with the Lordes prayer first vse in the celebration of the Lordes Supper but the Apostles as we reade in good Chronicles next vnto that is a very godly and necessary prayer worthy to be sayde in the celebration of suche a mysterie and therefore no matter at all who inuented it or broughte it in And yet Celestinus was a godly Bishop and the Churche of Rome at that tyme had the substance of the sacraments according to Gods word neither was there any superstitiō mixed with them notwithstanding I know not any Introite of Celestinus inuētion that Celestinus introite what it was we haue in our order of the Communion for the Introite that he appointed was one of the psalmes as Volateranus Gratianus and Polydorus Vergiliu do testify And we haue not any psalme in the celebratiō of the supper if we had it were not to be reproued This I am sure of that it is not euill bycause it is in the Masse booke except it be repugnāt to the word of God for the Lords prayer The epistle and Gospell some of the psalmes the Gospells and Epistles the Nicene creede c. be in the Masse booke and yet good so is there some other good prayers in it also Admonition The second ▪ They read no fragments of the Epistle and Gospell we vse both Ansvvere Pag. 94. Sect. vlt. Pag. 95. Sect. 1. And what fault can you find in that is not the whole scripture and euery peece of it profitable to edify can the scripture at any time in the open congregation be read out of season being in a knowen tongue but I thinke your quarell is at reading not against the Epistle and the Gospell Always in the Churche there hathe bin red the scriptures in the celebration of the mysteries and I am sure the Gospell was not wont to be read from the one ende to the other at one time Well Reading of scriptures at the communion Anno. 111. Alexander it is but your opinion withoute reason that the Epistle and Gospell oughte not to be read at that time for you bring no proofe and I thinke the contrary Fyrst bycause they be scripture and tend to edify secondly bycause it hathe bin the manner of long tyme euen since Alexanders time Anno. 111. Admonition The third The Nicene creede was not read in their communion we haue it in ours Ansvvere Pag. 95. Sect. 3. The Nicene Creede and euery parte of it is grounded vppon the The Nicene Creede worde of God it was collected by that famous Councell of Nice to confounde that detestable heresie of the Arrians and therefore meete to be reade in all Christian congregations neyther can any mislyke it but Arrians and suche lyke of the whiche secte you gyue iust suspitions that you bee fautors This Creede in thys forme was not framed in the Apostles tyme bycause the heresie of Arrius was not then hatched And therefore no good reason to say it was not read in the Apostles tyme at the communion Ergo it ought not to be read now But thys argumente is intollerable the Nicene Creede is read at the communion therefore the communion is not sincerely ministred All these three reasons be taken ab authoritate negatiuè and therefore of no force excepte wee wyll also graunte these to bee true and suche lyke scilicet Then they had no Christian Princes and therefore we maye haue no Christian Princes Then they had no ciuill or politike lawes Ergo we ought to haue none Then the Churche had no externall peace but was vnder persecution Ergo it should haue no peace now Then Christians had proprietie in nothing but all thinges were common Ergo no man may haue any thing of his owne but common to other we do not reade expressely that Children were then baptised therefore they ought not to be baptised now for so do the Anabaptists reason neyther do we reade that women did then receiue the supper therefore they ought not to do it now with infinite other as absurd as these T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 1. Unto the three next sections conteyned in the. 94. 95. and a peece of the. 96. pages touching that which is called the Introite and (*) You may aswell call chapters fragments for they are but peeces of the gospells and epistles and were first so deuided by men fragments of the Epistles and Gospels and the rehearsall of the Nicene creede I haue declared before the causes of our misliking neyther meane I to stand to refute the slanderous surmises which M. Doctor raiseth of the authors of the Admonition whereby he would bring them into the suspition of Arrianisme to whom all those that feare God beare witnesse that they are moste farre from He him selfe notwithstanding once agayne in the laste of these three sections 96. pag. doth laye the manyfeste foundations of that part of Anabaptisme which standeth in hauing all things common saying directly against S. Peter that in 5. Act. the time of the Apostles Christians hadde proprietie in nothing And further giuing great cause of triumph of the one syde to the Eatabaptists and such as denie the baptisme of yong infants in matching that with those things which the church may although not without incommoditie yet withoute impietie bee withoute and of the other syde vnto the Papistes whylest he sayeth that wee reade not of any women which receyued the Lordes supper in the Apostles tyme. For this is that they alleage to proue their vnwritten verities when as it is easyly answered bothe to the Papistes and M. Doctor that forsomuche as the Apostle dothe witnesse that the Churches of Corinthe consisting of men and women did receyue that therfore women also did receyue and were partakers of the Lordes table Thus it is manifest that M. Doctor onely to displease the authors of the Admonition sticketh not to (*) He pleasureth them in declaring the absurdities of their arguments pleasure three notable heretikes
that is to compell vsed agaynst suche as refuse to communicate I thinke in déede the especiall quarell is their owne bicause they haue separated them selues from the Churche and woulde not be constrayned to communicate with vs but they make their doctrine generall therby to cloke their intent Wherefore whether they do it to gratifie the Papists or no it may be doubted but certayne it is that the Papists could not haue had better Proctours Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 133 Lin. 37. As for the fee that M. Doctor saythe wee be worthy of for shewing our selues as he fayth so good patrons of the Pap stes he hathe giuen vs well to vnderstande what it shoulde be if he were the paymaster but as we serue the Lorde in this worke so we looke for rewarde at his hande not fearing but that the Lorde will in the ende giue suche blessing vnto our labours as we shall not neede greatly to eare at the handes of those whiche God hath placed in authoritie the rewarde which you do so often call for Io. Whitgifte Surely that ée you should looke for at my hands that it behoueth a Christiā man so giue vnto suche as continue in disturbing the Churche and yet peraduenture shoulde it not be by the twentie parte so sharpe as the fee that you woulde bestowe vpon me if it were in your power Howbeit I commit my selfe to him by whome hitherto I haue béene protected notwithstanding all the deuises and practises of slaunderous tongues and hatefull countenances and I nothing doubte but that in the ende God will turne all to his glory and profite of the Churche ¶ Of playne and simple ministring and receyuing of the Communion Chap. 3. Admonition The twelfth They ministred the Sacraments playnely we pompeously with singing pyping surplesse and cope wearing The thirtenth They simply as they h Co. 11 23 receyued it from the Lorde We sinfully mixed with mans inuentions and deuises Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 103. Sect. 2. 3. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. This is a very slender reason to proue that the sacrament of the Supper is not sincerely ministred bicause there is singing pyping surplesse and Cope when you shewe your reasons agaynst that pompe whiche is nowe vsed in the celebration of that Sacrament you shall heare what I haue to saye in defense of the same I thinke that there is nothing vsed in the administration thereof that dothe in any respecte contaminate it or make it impure As for pyping it is not prescribed to be vsed at the Communion by any rule that I knowe Synging I am sure you doe not disallowe beeing vsed Singing vsed in al reformed Churches in all reformed Churches and an arte allowed in Scriptures and vsed in praysing of God by Dauid Of Surplesse and Cope I haue spoken before wyl speake more hereafter as occasionis ministred There is no suche inuentions or deuises of man mixed wyth the Supper of the Lorde as can make it sinfull beeing all perteyning to edifying and to good decent order and nothing there appoynted to be done contrarie or not agreable to the Scriptures Caluine Caluine him selfe sayth in his Institutions Lib. 4. Cap. 10. That those thynges vvhiche be partes of decencie commended vnto vs by the Apostle though Decent orders be Gods traditions they be prescribed by man yet are they Gods traditions and not mans as kneeling at solemne prayer and suche like The Supper it selfe in all poynts of any moment is ministred nowe in this Churche of Englande euen as Christ deliuered it as the Apostles vsed and as the Primitiue Churche continued the same These be all the reasons you vse to proue that the Sacrament of the Supper is not rightly and sincerely ministred wherof some be impious some ridiculous and all of them vnworthy any confutation T. C. Pag. 133. Sect. 1. 2. Unto that whyche is conteyned in the two next sections in the. 103. and a peece of the. 104. pages I haue answered before partly particularly partly when I noted the general faults of the Seruice booke especially seeing that M. Doctor wyll not defende the pyping and Organes nor no other synging than is vsed in the re rmed Churches which is in the synging of two Psalmes one in the beginning and an other in the ending in a playne tune easy both to be song of those whych haue no arte in singing and vnderstanded of those whych bicause they can not reade can not sing with the rest of the Churche For that whiche is in the. 105. page and concerneth the surplesse I haue answered before Io. Whitgifte To the moste of it you haue not answered any where and the substance of it you The sacraments purely ministred haue left vntouched that is whether these things be of that weight or no that in any respect they can contaminate the sacramentes or make them impure as they b nowe vsed Neyther haue you proued or can proue that the sacraments are not ministred in this Church of Englande in all poyntes of any moment euen as Christ deliuered them the Apostles vsed them the primitiue Oecolamp in Epist. apud Gastium li. 2. de erro Catabaptist Churche continued them Touching singing piping as you cal it surplesse cope wearing I answere with Oecolampadius These things be free vnto Christians whiche holy or godly Bishops may eyther adde if it seeme vnto them conuenient and profitable for the people or take away if there be any abuse as the time requireth euen as they may also doe in other ceremonies VVe haue made no contention for externall things those things that be indifferent are not repugnant to the worde of God I haue hearde no reasons as yet to improue the manner of singing vsed in this The originall cause of the pryde of the Romishe churche Churche of England neyther do I say that I allow no other singing than is vsed in other reformed Churches For I woulde not haue any Churche to arrogate that perfection vnto it selfe that it should thinke all other Churches to be bounde vnto it it was the originall cause of the pryde of the Churche of Rome I haue onely sayde that other reformed Churches allow singing which is true ¶ Of matters touching Baptisme Tract 16. Of Interrogatories ministred to infants Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition And as for baptisme it was inough with them if they i Act. 8. 35. 36. 37. Act. 10. 47. had water and the partie to be baptised fayth and the Minister to preach the worde and minister the Sacramentes Nowe we must haue Surplesses deuised by Pope Adrian Interrogatories ministred to the Intant Godfathers and Godmothers brought in by Higinus holy fontes inuented by Pope Pius crossing and such like peeces of Poperie which the Church of God in the Apostles tyme neuer knew and therefore not to be vsed nay which we are sure of were and are mans deuises brought in long after the
not come to suche perfection in this lyfe as they doe desyre But howe doe these places proue that Godfathers are not able to perfourme that which they promise for the infant Truely these proofes are to farre fetched for my vnderstanding In the ninth to the Romaines the Apostle sayth That it is not in him that vvilleth nor in him that runneth but in God that shevveth mercie In the which wordes he sheweth that the cause of our election is not in our selues but in the mercie of God But what is this to the promise of Godfathers made at the baptising of Infantes If you woulde haue a man to promise nothing but that which is in his power to perfourme then must you simplie condemne all promises made by man for there is nothing in his power to perfourme no not mouing of his foote not comming to dinner or supper c. Therefore as all other promises bee made Conditionall promises with these secrete conditions if God will so muche as lyeth in mee to the vttermoste of my power if I lyue c. So is the promise in baptisme made by the Godfathers likewise Io. Whitgifte There is nothing answered to this Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 107. Sect. 2. and Pag. 193. Sect. 1. It is also manifest by these authorities that Godfathers or suretyes were required at the baptising of Infantes which Tertullian also signifyeth in his booke de Baptismo But you your selfe Of Godfathers confesse Godfathers to be of great antiqnitie in the Churche of Christ for you say that Higinus brought them in and Higinus was the ninth Bishop of Rome and liued Anno. 141 Touching the last which you Rhetorically say you will speake nothing of that is the euill choyse of witnesses I thinke in part it is true but you speake that without the booke and therefore without my compasse of defense For I meane not to take vpon me the defense of any abuse within the booke if there be any muche lesse without the booke T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 1. For Godfathers there is no controuersie betweene the Admonition and master Doctors booke which appeareth not onely in their corrections but plainly in the. 188. page where they declare that they rather condemne the abuse whilest it is vrged more than greater matters and which are in deede necessarie this being a thing arbitrarie and left to the discretion of the Church Godfathers allowed by T. C. and whylest there is so euill choyse for the most part of Godfathers which is expressedly mentioned of the Admonition and whilest it is vsed almost for nothing else but as a meane for one friende to gratifie an other without hauing any regarde to the solemne promise made before God and the congregation of seeing the childe brought vp in the nurture and feare of the Lorde For the thing it selfe considering that it is so generally receyued of all the Churches they doe not mislike of it Io. Whitgifte Peraduenture they are better aduised nowe than they were when they wrote the Admonition But it is good for the Reader to note that you make Godfathers a thing arbitrarie and left to the discretion of the Churche and yet was it inuented Godfathers allowed thogh brought in by Pope Higinus as the Authours of the Admonition say by Pope Higinus So that some thing belike of the Popes inuentions may remayne in the Churche thoughe the same bée not expressed in the worde of God Indéede this is the libertie that you chalenge to allowe what you list and disallowe at your pleasure all is perfect that you confirme of whome soeuer it was borrowed And why may not I say the same for interrogatories ministred to the Infant You adde this reason in the ende Considering it is so generally receyued of all Churches and yet page 18. you disallow Sainct Augustines The Replyer vnconstant Pag. 18. Sect. 7 rule tending to the same effect so that you may say and vnsay at your pleasure and no man say vnto you blacke is your eye or Domine cur ita facis Of Fontes and crossing in Baptisme Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 107. Sect. vlt. You may as well finde fault with Pulpit and Church as with Of fontes The Apostles baptised not in Basons the fontes and the reason is all one In the tyme of the Apostles they did not baptise in Basons as you doe nowe but in Riuers and other common waters neyther was there in the Apostles time any Churches for Christians or Pulpits to preache in and therefore you had best to plucke downe Churches and Pulpits and to baptise in common riuers and waters T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 2. As for Fontes I haue spoken of before both particularly and in generall But whereas M. Doctor sayth in the Ipostles tymes they baptised in no Basons but in ryuers and common waters I would know whether there was a riuer or common water in Cornelius and in the Iaylers houses where Paule and Peter baptised Io. Whitgifte And I woulde also gladly learne howe you can proue that they did baptise in Basons there I doe not say that they alwayes baptised in Riuers and common waters but that they did so and that most commonly which no man can denie But I require one sillable in Scripture to proue that they did baptise in Basons not that I The replyer put to the proofe of his ceremonies disallowe it if tyme and place doe require but bycause I woulde haue you to performe that in your Ceremonies which you require in ours that is to proue them directly by the worde of God Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 108. Sect. 1. Touching crossing in baptisme I will onely recite vnto you the Of crossing in baptisme ucer opinion of M. Bucer which is this Signam hoc non tam quod est vsus in Ecclesijs antiquissimi quam quòd est admodùm simplex presentis admonitionis crucis Christi adbiberi nec indecens nec inutile existimo si adhibeatur modò purè intellectum religiose excipiatur nulla nec superstitione adiuncta nec elements seruitute nec lenitate aut vulgari consuetudine I thinke it neyther vncomely nor vnprofitable to vse the signe of the Crosse not onely bicause the vse therof is very auncient but also because it hath an expresse signification of the passion of Christ so that it be purely vnderstoode and religiously receyued vvithout any superstition or seruitude of the element or leuitie or common custome T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 3. To proue crossing in Baptisme M. Bucers authoritie is brought I haue sayde before what iniurie it is to leaue the publike workes of Bucer and to flie vnto the Apochryphas wherein also they might driue vs to vse the like and to set downe likewise his wordes whiche we finde in his priuate letters But it is first of all to be obserued of the reader howe and
with what name those notes are called which are cyted of M. Doctor for the defense of these corruptions they are called by M. Doctors owne confession Censures which worde signifieth and implyeth as much as corrections and controlments of the booke of seruice and therefore we may take this for a generall rule throughout the whole booke of Seruice that in whatsoeuer things in controuersie M. Doctor doth not bring Bucers authoritie to confirme them that those things Bucer mislyked of as for example in priuate Baptisme and Communions ministerd in houses for interrogatories ministred to Infants and such lyke for so muche as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucers iudgement it may be thought that he mislyked of them and no doubt if eyther M. Bucers notes had not either condemned or misliked of diuerse things in the Seruice booke we shoulde haue had the notes printed and set forth to the full This I thought in a worde to admonish the reader of Io. Whitgifte To your first cauill I haue answered before where you made the same To your seconde of master Bucers Censures though the booke be not so intituled the M. Bucers Censures vppon the first booke in king Edwardes time answere is short and plaine it was his iudgement vppon the first Communion booke in the time of king Edwarde wherein he misliked some things but alloweth both priuate Baptisme and the Communion ministred to the sicke as I before declared and you might haue remembred if your memorie had not fayled you Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 4. Unto M. Bucers authoritie I could here oppose men of as great authoritie yea the authoritie of all the reformed Churches which shal also be done afterwarde And if there were nothing to oppose but the worde of God which will haue the Sacraments ministred simplie and in that sinceritie that they be left vnto vs it is enough to make all men to couer their faces and to be ashamed if that which thy shall speake be not agreeable to that simplicitie The reasons which M. Bucer bringeth I will answere wh ch in this matter of crossing are two first that it is auncient and so it is in deede For Tertullian maketh mention of this vsage Li. de resurrect carnis And if this be sufficient to proue the goodnesse of it then there is no cause why we shoulde mislyke of the other superstitions and corruptions which were likewise vsed in those tymes For the same Li. de corona militis Tertullian sheweth that they vsed also at baptisme to taste of milke and honie and not to washe all the weeke after they had ministred baptisme Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes without proofe Crossing in that maner and forme that we vse it verie well agréeth with the simplicitie of the worde of God If it doe not so shewe any worde agaynst it Your answere to that reason is very base for it is not onely auncient but it hath continued and béene generally receyued which you allowed before as a sufficient reason for Godfathers As for milke and honie the vse of them was neyther continued long nor yet generall and therefore the reason of them and of the other is not lyke Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 135 Sect. vlt. But here I will note the cause wherevppon I suppose this vse of crossing came vp in the Primitiue Churche whereby shall appeare howe there is no cause nowe why it it should be reteyned if there were any why it shoulde be vsed in the Primitiue Churche It is knowne to all that haue read the Ecclesiasticall stories that the Heathen did obiect to the Christians in tymes past in reproche that the God which they beleeued of was hanged vpon a Crosse. And they thought good to testifie that they were not ashamed therefore of the same God by the often vsing of the signe of the Crosse which carefulnesse and good mynde to keepe amongest them an open profession of Christ crucifyed although it be to be commended yet is not this meanes so for they might otherwise haue kept it and with lesse daunger than by this vse of crossing and if they thought the vse of the Crosse to be the best meanes yet they shoulde not haue beene so bolde as to haue brought it into the holy Sacrament of Baptisme and so mingle the ceremonies and inuentions of men with the Sacramentes and institution of God And as it was brought in vpon no good grounde so the Lord left a marke of his curse of it and whereby it might be perceyued to come out of the forge of mans brayne in that it beganne forthwith while it was yet in the swadling cloutes to be superstitiously abused For it appeareth by Tertullian also in the same booke de Corona militis that the Christians had such a superstition in it that they woulde doe nothing nor take nothing in hande vnlesse they had crossed them when they went out when they came in when they sat or lay downe and when they rose and as Superstition is alwayes strengthned and spreddeth it selfe with the time so it came from crossing of men vnto crossing of euerie thing that they vsed Wherevpon Chrysostome commendeth the crossing of the Cuppe before a man drinke Vpon the 1. Tim. 4. cap. and of the meate before it was eaten But if it were graunted that vppon this consideration which I haue before mencioned the auncient Christians did well yet it followeth not that wee shoulde so doe for we liue not amongest those Nations whiche doe cast vs in the teeth or reproche vs with the Crosse of Christ. If we liued amongst the Turkes it were an other matter and then there might peraduenture some question be whether we shoulde doe as they did and hauing the same sore vse the same playster But nowe we liue among the Papistes that doe not contemne the crosse of Christ but which esteeme more of the woodden crosse than of the true crosse of Christ which is his sufferings we ought nowe to doe cleane contrariewise to the olde Chrystians and abolishe all vse of these crosses for contrarie diseases must haue contrarie remedyes if therefore the olde Christians to delyuer the crosse of Christ from contempt did often vse the crosse the Christians nowe to take away the superstitious estimation of it ought to take away the vse of it Io. Whitgifte I thinke your supposition in parte to bée true I am also perswaded that the originall cause of vsing this signe was lawfull and good and yet the thing if selfe afterwardes abused and the cause of vsing is cleane altered and wholy conuerted to superstition but the abuse béeing taken away I sée no cause why it may not be vsed in Baptisme in that manner and forme as it is in this Churche of Englande that is In token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confesse the fayth of Christ crucified and manfully to fight vnder his banner agaynst sinne the worlde
I know But let vs a little better cōsider your assertions and marke your drifte Page 34. you saye that there are no whoremongers nor Pag. 34. Sect. 1 drunkardes in the churche that are knowem bycause the churche doth excommunicate them wherby you seme to runne headlong into this heresye of the Anabaptistes that that is not the Churche of Christe in the whiche are knowen drunkardes and whoremongers no excommunication vsed against them The whiche heresye is well and learnedlye Caluine Bullinger confuted by M. Caluine in his booke against the Anabap. and by M. Bullinger likewyse Lib. 6. cap. 10. aduersus Anabap. Moreouer this your assertion séemeth to bring in rebaptisation For if whoremongers The assertion of the Replier tendeth to rebaptisation drunkardes and such lyke wycked persones by excommunication be so cut of from the Churche that their children may not be baptised then must it followe that their baptisme is cut of also which if it be true howe can they vpon repentance be admitted againe except they be rebaptised and what is this else but to make baptisme to be iterated as the Lorde ▪ supper is when as by the consent of all the Churches Baptisme once ministred remaineth per petuall there is but one baptisme wherewith it is sufficient once to be Christened séeing that baptisme once receyued doth endure for euer as a perpetuall signe of our adoption And how can you allowe the baptisme of heretikes to be good if you disallowe the baptising of their children that be excommunicated may an heretike excommunicated baptise and is that baptisme good and may not the children of hym that is excommunicated receyue the sacrament of baptisme can any faulte of the parentes hauing once receyued the scale of the couenant seclude their chyldren from rcceyuing the same seale you haue neyther example nor precept in scripture to iustifie your assertion with it is against the nature of the sacrament the practise of the Church and the whole consent of learned wryters some fewe excepted which erred in rebaptisation and yet you boldely here set it downe without any further proofe at all S. Augustine in his booke Contraepist Parme. reasoneth wholy to the contrary for there he proueth that heretikes whiche cut of them selues from the Churche do neyther Heretikes loose not their baptisme amittere baptismum nor ius dandi baptismum that is neither leese their baptisme nor authoritie to baptise and therevpon concludeth against rebaptisation whiche must néedes followe if eyther of the other be taken away The Donatistes them selues were at the length compelled to confesse that heretikes deuided from the churche did not amitte e bapt smum leese their baptisme And in the same booke August hath this generall sentence That the faulte of such heretikes is in cutting of them selues from the churche which may be corrected by returning againe to the churche non in sacramentis quae vbicunque sunt ipsa vera sunt not in the sacramentes which wheresoeuer they are are true This being so as it is then are you very nere to Donatisme nay farre beyonde it in The Replier nere to Donatis e. saying that the chyldren of the heretykes and suche as by excommunication are cut of from the Churche maye not be baptised Surelye if the Parentes beyng heretikes and cut of from the Churche do notwithstanding Retinere baptismum keepe styll their baptisme as Saint Augustine sayeth I sée not howe by any meanes you can iustifie the secluding of theyr chyldren from being baptysed or if otherwyse I can not sée howe a Papiste beyng conuerted can bee receyued into the Churche without he bée anewe baptysed or howe suche chyldren of knowen Papistes and excommunicate persones as haue bene baptised in this Churche of Englande or else ◠here from the beginning of the Gospell to this daye can be coumpted Christians vnlesse they be rebaptised And concernyng Papistes whome you haue denyed to bée in the Churche Pag. 34. Sect. vii and to whose chyldren also you here denye baptisme I wyll aske you but this one question what you thynke of all those whiche are not onelye chyldren to professed and knowen Papistes but baptised also in the Romishe Churche for if the chyldren of knowen Papistes may not be baptysed what shall wée saye of our selues and of our Parentes and predecessours who all or the moste of them were professed Papistes is not this the grounde of Rebaptisation and Anabaptisme But that the Reader maye the better vnderstande your erroure and the rather beléeue it to be an errour in dée I wyll set downe M. Beza his opinion of this matter from whome you are lothe I am sure to be thought to dissent In his booke of Epistles Epist. 10 answering this question whether the infantes of suche as are excommunicated Beza li. Epist. Epist. 10. may be baptised and in whose fayth when as they of whome they are begotten are not members of the Churche determineth thus God forbidde that we should iudge all one and a lyke of all suche as are not called the members of the Churche for there are foure kyndes of men farre differing among them selues One is of them whiche neyther by election neyther in them selues are by anye meanes the members of Christe whome we cal by the worde of God reprobate and the vessels of anger and appointed to destruction although many of them sometime in apparance that is in outwarde profession yea and a certayne semblance of faythe continuing for a tyme wherewith they mocke both them selues and other are reckened among the members of the Churche of whome Iohn sayeth if they had bene of vs they would haue taryed with vs. The seconde is of those whiche are chosen in Christe by eternall election and therefore are the members of Christe yet by purpose onelye not in deede in whiche sense Paule sayth that he was seuered from his mothers wombe when as notwithstanding hee was a long tyme the member of Sathan persecuting Christ and in an other place sayeth that grace was giuen vs in Christe before euerlasting tymes and agayne that God loued vs when we were his enemies In the thyrde kynde wee counte them that bothe by election and in deede are the sonnes of God bycause as the Apostle sayth they are ruled by the spirite of God Finally in the fourth place wee recken those who whereas they appertayne to the election of God and be engraffed in Christ yet bycause hauing fallen in some thing as men often doe they be an offence to the other members therefore least the wound should bee deadlye whiche Sathan and the fleshe hath gyuen them neede a more sharpe remedye and are therfore excommunicated or delyuered to Sathan not that they should peryshe for it is not possible that they should peryshe whiche are the members of Christe But that godlye sorowefulnesse may cause repentance eyther that their fleshe that is the olde man dying their spirite may be saued in the daye of the
Lorde These therefore be they whome we call excommunicated and who for two respectes are not members of the Churche one according to men bycause they are excluded from the holy felowship of the faythfull the other according to God bycause that saying of Christe is sure that that is bounde in heauen whiche is ryghtlye bounde of the Churche in the earth But it is an other thyng truelye to bee bounde in heauen than to bee cast out of that true kyngdome of heauen whiche neuer happeneth to anye of the electe For that saying of Christe standeth that those shall neuer bee caste out whome the Father hath giuen the Sonne and that of Lohn if they had bene of vs they woulde haue taried with vs and that of the Apostle the foundation of God standeth sure hauing this seale the Lorde knoweth who be is Therefore as touching Christe these are sayd not to be his nor members of the Churche not as the firste whiche are reprobate and damned but bycause for a tyme as concernyng the force and efficacie of the spirite they are without hym as beyng so engraffed in hym that they receyue not that lyuelye nouryshement of the spirite of Christe for a tyme that is tyll grace of repentaunce be gyuen them To conclude the difference betwixt these and the firste is such as is betweene a legge of woode ioyned cunninglye to a true bodye whiche notwithstanding is not a legge in deede neyther is truely called a parte of that man and betwyxt a true legge that yet for a tyme receyueth not nouryshement in suche sorte that vnles it be refreshed by the strengthe of some sharpe medicine it wyll necessaryly putrific and cleane peryshe VVherefore seeing these thinges be thus and charitie byddeth vs to hope well of all yea and also to take care for them whiche are helde as captiues in the snare of the Deuyll God forbydde that the Parentes beyng excommunicated wee should conclude that theyr posteritie belongeth not to the kyngdome of God Furthermore there is great difference betweene those whiche although they bee notorious offendours neuerthelesse departe not from the Churche and betweene those that are manifeste rennegates ioyning them selues with the enimies to oppresse the truthe of the Gospell Further it were vnreasonable to esteeme of Papistes muche lesse Christians excommunicated no otherwise than of Turkes for although it bee vnpossible to serue the Pope and Christ togyther yet it is certayne that Poperie is an erring of the Christian Churche VVherefore the Lorde hath in the middest of that goulfe of Papistrie preserued Baptisme that is the first entering into the Churche whereby it appeareth as also the thing it selfe proueth in vs that although Papisme be not the Churche yet the Churche hathe bene and is as it were drowned or couered in it whiche can not by anie meanes bee sayde of the Turkes whiche neuer gaue theyr names to Chryst. Lastly for so muche as the goodnesse of God is extended to a thousande generations that is as it were without ende it were harde if wee shoulde iudge of the children whether they belong to the couenant of God or no by the profession of their last Parentes Therefore of all these argumentes ioyned togither we conclude that the children of persons excommunicate abyding yet in the Churche of God can by no right bee debarred from Baptisme if in case a meete suretie bee had whiche will make promyse to the Church that they shall be vertuously brought vp which I thinke ought to be done of the Ministers them selues and other Godly men rather than theyr Baptisme shoulde anie longer be deferred Yet it shall not be amisse if the Minister before he baptise the infant taking hereof occasion earnestly exhort the father that is excommunicated being present to epentance before the assemblie whiche is oftentymes practised in oure Churches Hitherto Beza Chap. 4. the 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. 2. And in the. 193. page he asketh what if the Parentes of the childe be vnknowen if it be yet if godly men will present it to baptisme with promyse of seing it brought vp in the feare of the Lorde for so much as it is founde in a place where the churche is and therefore by likelyhoode to apperteyne to some that was of the churche I thynke it may be baptised if the churche thynke it good in this last case Io. Whitgifte And why should you but thinke so what reason is there why it should not be baptised But yet this answere of yours dothe nothing iustifie the Aomonition Whiche would The parentes to presente their chyldren if conuentently makyng an open confession of that faythe wherein he would haue his chylde baptised For this can not be done where the Parentes be vnknowen neither is in such case any other man able to testifie of what faythe or behauiour the parentes were Chap. 4. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. vlt. Then he goeth forth in the. III. Page to proue that the children of those which he hath reckened may be baptised and demaundeth whither a wicked father may haue a good childe a Papist or Heretike father a beleeuing chylde yes verily may they So may haue and hath the Turke and the Iewe and yet their children are not to be receyued vnlesse their fayth doth fitste appeare by confession But you say the Papiste an Heretike be Baptised and so are not the Iewes and Turkes Their baptisme beyng cut of from the Churche maketh them as much straungers vnto it as was Ismaell and Esau whiche albeit they were circumcised yet beyng caste out of the Churche they were no more to be accompted to be of the body of Gods people then those whiche neuer were in the Churche Now you see (*) It is poyson in deede and the same whi he I suspected the poyson as you terme it which lieth hidde vnder these wordes and if it be as you say poyson let vs haue some of your triacle In all the reste of that section there is nothing but that which he spake of before onely the Eldership is amed which commeth to be intreated of in the next section Io. Whitgifte If their baptisme be so cut of that it also taketh away the priuiledge from their children howe can they be admitted agayne into the Churche without rebaptisation S. Augustine in the place before recited sayeth that Heretikes though they be cut of from the Churche yet they do retayne their Baptisme whiche beyng true there is no reason to seclude their children frō it I cannot learne but that the Sonnes of Ismaell were circumcised for it is written of the Egyptians as P. Martyr doth note P. Martyr in 4. Rom. that they circumcided at 14. yeares of age bycause Ismael was then circumcised Which tyme of circumcision the Arabians obserued in lyke manner And therefore it is not vnlike but that the Posteritie of Ismael was circumcised And as for the Sonnes of Esau it is not like that they were debarred from circumcision
gubernatores tum ciuiles tum ecclesiastic s The gouernours of the Church as well ciuill as ecclesiasticall Howsoeuer it is the place béeing doubtful it can not esta blishe the office of your Seniors as perpetuall Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision Admonition In steade of these Seniors in r Rom. 1 8 euery Churche the Pope hath brought in and yet we maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer sundry churches yea ouer many shyres Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 115. Sect. vlt. You alleage in the margent these words in the. 12. to the Rom. He that exhorteth let hym vvayte on exhortation he that distribute h let him do it vvith simplicitie he that ruleth vvith diligence he that shevveth mercy vvith cherefulnesse To proue that in steade of these Seniors in euery Churche the Pope hath brought in and we yet maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches c. I know not how this geare hangeth togither or to what purpose you should alleage that place it neyther proueth that in euery Churche there was Elders neyther that in place of them the Pope hathe brought in the the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. The same answere may be made vnto that which he sayth of the place to the Romanes where Cap. 12. speaking of the offices of the Church after that he had set foorth the office of the pastor and of the Doctor he addeth those other two offices of the Church wherof one was occupied in the gouernment onely the other in prouiding for the poore and helping the sicke And if besides the manyfest words of the Apostle in both these places I should adde the sentences of the writers vpon those places as M. Caluine M. Beza M. Martyr M. Bucer c. It should easily appeare what iust cause M. Doctor hath to say that it is to dally with the scriptures to make them a nose of waxe in alleaging of these to proue the Elders that al men might vnderstande what terrible outc ies he maketh as in this place so almost in al other when there is cause that he should lay his hande vpon his mouth Io. Whitgifte The like answere do I make to that place also that I made to y e former M. Caluine Caluine sayth that these words of the Apostle Qui pr est in diligentia he that ruleth with diligence may generally be extended ad praefecturas omne genus to all kind of rule or gouernment And M. Martyr vpon the same words sayth that he doubteth not multas fuisse in Martyr Beza ecclesia praefecturas that there were many gouernments in the Church M. Beza likewyse although he sayth that the Apostle in this worde vnderstandeth presbyteros yet he addeth qui ipsi interdū doctrinae verbo praeerant which also sometime dyd preach the word M. Bucer sayth playnely Est praeterea qui praeest qui pascendi regendi ecclesiā mun accepit Bucer Furthermore he doth rule whiche hathe receyued the office of feeding and gouerning the Church Wherby he must néedes vnderstand the Pastor not any vnpreaching Senior But what kinde of argument call you this he that ruleth must do it with diligence Ergo there must be Seniors in euery parish You should rather conclude thus therefore those to whome God hath committed any office of gouernment muste doe the same diligently and carefully So that although these learned mē do vnderstād this place of Seniors yet do they The place Rom. 12. is generall think y t it may also be vnderstāded of other magistrates gouernours therfore vpō their interpretatiōs you can not conclude any certentie of your Seniors And M. Beza séemeth by y e name of Seniors to vnderstād the ministers of the word that is Bishops pastors and there is no doubt but that y e Apostle in this place doth admonish al to be diligēt in their office that haue any kind of gouernmēt cōmitted vnto thē Wherfore you may not restraine this to any one particular kind of gouernmēt which y ◠Apostle hath generally spoken of al for that were in déede to dally with the scriptures to abuse them as the Papists do yea to make thē a nose of waxe as I haue sayd before Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. This I am compelled to write not so muche to pro e that there were Seniors in euery Churche which is a thing confessed as to redeeme those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations for as for the proofe of Elders in euery congregation esides his confession I neede haue no more but his owne reason For he sayth that the office of these Elders in euery Church ▪ was in that tun wherin there were no christian Magistrates and when there was perfecution but in the Apostles times there was bothe persecution and no christiā Magistrates therfore in their time the office of these Elders was in euery congregation Io. Whitgifte If this be a good argument S. Paule ad Rom. 12. sayth he that uleth must doe it diligently Ergo euery particular congregation muste of necessitie be gouerned by Seniors Or this the Apostle 1. Cor. 12. sayth that God hath placed in his Churche gouernours Ergo euery parish must haue a Seigniorie Or this Paule and Barnabas in euery Churche ordeyned pastors therefore in euery Church there must be a company of Seniors to whome the whole gouernment of the parish is to be cōmitted If I say these be good sure argumēts then haue I corruptly interpreted those places But if these arguments be not sounde if they haue no sequele in them if they be agaynst the practise of the Church euer since it had christian Magistrates and long before especially for suche Elders as you meane if this kinde of gouernment in many reformed Churches be not thought conuenient if it spoyle the Christian Magistrate of the authoritie giuen vnto him by the worde of God and finally if it bring in confusion then haue I truely interpreted those places and according to my duetie and calling deliuered them from your corruptions But the truthe of this matter shall more euidently appeare in that whiche followeth That whiche I haue sayde of the béeing of Seniors in euery Churche I saye still neyther is that the questiō for I aske y ◠question of your Seniors not of Ministers whome I call Seniors neyther dyd I meane that in euery particular parish there was suche a Seigniorie but in euery chiefe Citie nor that it was at all tymes in persecution and where there was no Christian Magistrate but ometimes neyther that this kinde of gouernment muste be in suche times but that it may be And therefore you had done well if you had not béene so sparing of your proofes for all my graunte ¶ VVhether the gouernment by Seniors ought to be perpetuall Chap. 2. the first Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. I come therefore to the seconde
not followe that it shoulde be your Seigniorie whych you would haue in euery congregation to consiste of the Pastor and some other of his parishe but rather suche as Chrysostome calleth Prelates and Presidents which are Bishops Hom. 61. in Matth. such other chiefe gouernours But be it that this place admitted y e same sense that you would haue it to do yet do I answer you as M. Musculus answered y e Papists obiecting these words in effect to the same ende that you do that is to spoyle the Christian Magistrate of his authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters Obijciunt illud Christi dic Musc. tit de Magist. in lo. om ecclesiae Et si ecclesiam non audierit sit tibi velut Ethnicus Publicanus Respondeo Ecclesiae dei tum Magistratu pio ac fideli d stituebantur c. They obiect sayth he that place of Christ Dic ecclesiae tell the Churche and if he heare not the Church let him be to thee as an heathen and publicane I answere The Churches of God were then destitut of a godly and faythful Magistrate wherfore the iudgements betweene brethren brethren were exercised by Seniors in an ecclesiastical assembly as it was also vsual in christian Churches plāted by the Apostles But there is a far diuers cōdition of those Churches which by the benefite of God haue obteyned Princes and christian Magistrates who haue the chieftie power the making of lawes and gouernment not only in profane matters but also in diuine But that is a most pestilent errour whereby diuers men thinke no otherwise of the christian Magistrate than of a profane gouernment whose authoritie is to be acknowledged onely in profane matters And surely you do not one iote in this poynt differ from the opinion of the Papists Truthe it is that the place of Matthew may be vnderstanded of Seniors but it may as well be vnderstanded of any other that by the order of the church haue authoritie in the Church And séeing that it admitteth diuers interpretations as it dothe there can no suche platforme of necessitie be grounded vpon it Moreouer when Christe sayde Dic Ecclesiae there was no christian Churche establis ed but he speaketh according to the state of the Iewes Churche that then was vnder the Heathenish Magistrates as he also doth when he saythe If thy brother Matth. 5. trespasse agaynst thee c. leaue thine offering before the alter c. And to this doth M. Caluin agrée in his Harmonie expoūding y e same place And surely as of this place you may not conclude that in the Churche of Christ there ought to be suche offerings and alters so may you not on the other place conclude that there ought alwayes to be Seniors Naye muche lesse this than the other for this is doubtfull and the other is playne Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 141. Lin. 11. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. Furthermore S. Paule hauing entreated throughout y e whole first epistle to Timothie of y e orders which ought to be in y e church of God of the gouernmēt as himselfe witnesseth in the hird 1. Tim. 6. chapter of that Epistle when he saith he wrote that Epistle to teach Timothie how he should behaue himselfe in the house of God and hauing set foorth both Byshop Elder and Deacons as ministers and officers of the Church in the shutting vp of his Epistle he for the obseruation of all the orders of that Epistle adiureth Timothie with the inuocation of the name of God straightly chargeth him to obserue those things which he had prescribed in that epistle I charge thee saith he before God which quickn th all things and before Iesus Christ which witnessed vnder Pontius Pilate a good profession that thou keepe this commaundement without spot or blemish vntil the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ. The weight of which sentence for the obseruing of those things which are mentioned in this epistle that it may be the better vnderstanded I will note the words seuerally First therfore it is to be noted that he saith I denounceor I charge he doth not say I exhort or giue counsell leauing it to the libertie of Timothie Secondarily it is to be noted that he calleth (*) This cannot be true as shall be declared the whole Epistle a commaundemēt and therfore it is no permission so that it may be lawfull for the churches to leaue it or to keepe it Thirdly when he maketh mention of e liuing God of Christ which witnessed a good profession vnder Pontius Pilate he sheweth that the things conteyned in this Epistl are such as for the maintenance thereof we ought not to doubt to giue our liues and that they be not suche as we ought to keepe so that we haue them without strife without sweate or easely but such as for the keeping of them if we haue them and for the obteyning of them if we haue them not I will not say ur honours or our commodi ies and wealth but as I haue sayd our liues oughte not to be deare vnto vs. For therefore doth he make mention of the confession of Christ vnto death that he might shew vs an example and foorthwith speaketh of God whiche rayseth from the dead that by thys meanes he might comfort Timothie if he should be brought into any trouble for the de ense of any of these things Fourthly if we referre those words without spot or blemish vnto the commaundement as I for my part thinke they ought to be then there is a waight in these wordes not to be passed ouer whiche is that the Apostle will not only haue the rules here conteyned not troden vnder the feete or broken in peeces but he will not haue them so much as in any one smal point or specke neglected But I see how M. Doctor will wipe away all this and say that these thinges or some of them were to be obserued thus necessaryly and precisely vntill there were christian princes and peace in the church but the print is deeper than that it wil be so washed away and therfore it is to be obserued what he sayth in the latter end of the sentence where he chargeth Timothie and in him al that he should keepe all these things not vntill the time of peace or to the times of christian princes but euen vntil the comming or appearing of our sauioure Christ which is as long as the world lasteth And therefore I conclude that the Seigniors or Elders of the Church being a part of that order and gouernment of the Churche which S. Paule appointeth in this Epistle are necessary perpetuall and by no meanes to be chaunged Io. Whitgifte Al this is but to blind y e eies of the Reader being indéede without all pith gr ūd The office of Seniors not mentioned in the. 1. Tim. much lesse commanded For first wher hath the Apostle in al that Epistle spokē one
is collected into some one narow and certaine place To be shorte it can not be gouerned when it is ful of hypocrites Papists Atheis s and other wicked persons as when it hath verie fewe or none such as cōmonly it hath not in tyme of persecution when the gold is as it were by fyre tried from the drosse He that according to this diuersitie of the forme state time of the church doth not allow a diuersitie of gouernment doth confound and not edifie I praye you what Seniors could you haue in most parishes in England fit for that office But wise not wilful men haue to consider this God hath giuē the chief gouernment of his church to the christian magistrate who hath to consider what is most conuenient and we must therwith be content so that nothing be done against faithe and the commaundement of God TC Pag. 142. Sect. 1. Nowe I will come to M. Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth fourteene and a hundred and fiftene pages where he graunteth that there were elders in euery Churche in times past but saith that it ought not now so to be For saith he the times alter the gouernment and it cannot be gouerned in the time of prosperitie as in the time of persecution vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant Thus he sayth but sheweth no reason bringeth no proofe declareth not how nor why prosperitie will not beare the elders as well as persecution neyther why they may not be vnder a godlie prince as well as vnder a tyrant v lesse this be a reason that bycause the godlye prince doth nourish the church as a ciuile Magistrate therfore the Auncients may not nourishe it as ecclesiasticall ouerseers Io. Whitgifte My reason why it may not be gouerned vnder a Christian Prince as it maye The Church may no be gouerned vnder 〈◊〉 stian Prince as 〈◊〉 a tyrant vnder a tyrant is this God hath giuen the chiefe authoritie in the gouernmente of his church to the Christian magistrate which could not so be if your Seignorie might as wel retein their authoritie vnder a Christian Prince and in the time of peace as vnder a tyrant and in the tyme of persecution For tell me I pray you what authoritie ecclesiasticall remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate where this Seignorie is established But that the Reader may vnderstande this not to be my iudgement alone but the iudgement also of famous learned men the practise of w ll reformed churches I thought good in this place before I proceed any further to report the opinions of Musculus and Gualter touchyng this matter Musculus in his common places titulo de Magistratibus affirmeth that notwithstanding in the 〈◊〉 tyme the Musculus churches were ruled by Seniors yet they may not so be vnder christian rulers and Magistrates who haue authoritie not in ciuill matters only but in ecclesiastical also His wordes I haue recited before M. Gualter in his cōmentaries vpon 1. Cor. 5. Supra in the 4. diuision doth at large entreat of this matter whose wordes bicause they haue pith in them and proceede from him which is both learned and godlie and of great experience I will reher e them as I finde them There are also others which although they haue true christian princes and want no lawes wherby licentious maners are corrected yet they say they nede an ecclesiastical senate Gualter in 1. Cor. 5. which might punish euery man and haue authoritie also ouer Princes that it might seclude them fr the Lords supper if they haue giuē any publike offence not to admitte them againe vnto the felowship of the Church but vpon their allowāce after publike satisfactiō And if any man do contrary them in their opinion by and by they crie out vpon him as the enemie of all discipline as one vnwoorthy to haue any place in the Church as though there could no other forme of discipline be appointed but that whiche they haue inuented But they must pardone vs and let them not condemne vs rashly which do dissent from them not without good reason You sée therefore how your Seigniorie and kinde of gouernmente is liked euen of zelous and godly ministers of reformed churches Neyther do I remember that I euer read any authoure that dothe of necessitie require it scripture I know you haue none for it Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 142 Sect. 2. Nowe seing M. Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now as in the time of the Apostles as well vnder a Christian prince s vnder a Tyrant I will shewe him that although they be always necessary yet there is better cause why they should rather be now than in the Apostles times greater necessitie vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant First of all in the Apostles times it is knowne that the gifts of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge enduring of trauayle were poured foorth more plentifully then euer they were eyther before or shall be after By reason whereof the Pastors and ministers of the churches that were then were I speake generally and of the estate of the whole Church better furnished with the gifts needefull for their ministerie than are the ministers of these days Whervpon I conclude that if the ayd and assistance of the Pastor by the Elders was thoughte necessary by the Apostles in those times when the ministers were so wel and so richly replenished with such gifts much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the ministers of these days wherein their gifts of discretion knowledge and diligence are not so plentifull For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue whose hands so nimble to execute had neede for their ayde of other eyes and other handes then the ministers now whose eyes are dimmer and hands heauier than theirs were haue much more neede of this ayde than they had Io. Whitgifte This reason is answered two ways and that briefly The first is bycause there is not at this time in euery congregation so méete men for that office of Seniors as there was then for God hath not now so plentifully poured the giftes of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge c. vpon so many in euery congregation according to your owne confession as he did then and therefore nothing so easie to fiad in euery congregation meete men to gouerne ▪ a it was then Secondly the ciuill and Christian The ciuill ma gistrate a better help to the minister than the Seniors Magistrate hath that whole authoritts now that Seniors had thē and much more for he may punish with corporall punishment and so could not they he may compell and coustrayne and so could not they so that the Pastor may be much better ayded and assisted in doing his dutie and in suppressing vice by the authoritie of the Christian Magistrate than he eyther was then or could be now by the
person that is called to a lawful and a publike function as he did vpon Saule yet doth he not alway so God doth not of necessitie tye his graces to God bestoa weth his gifts by meanes offices for as he in the beginning of his churche miraculously bestowed his giftes so doth he now leaue the same by outwarde meanes in parte to be obteyned as by education learning instruction reading studying c. which meanes being neglected God doth of his iustice permitte euill Magistrates and officers which he also sometymes doth for the offences of the people as may be séene in the most parte of the kings of Iuda and of Ierusalem and almost in all christian princes and gouernours vnder the Popes tyrannie For I suppose you meane such giftes as be profitable for the Churche Surely if this were true that you here so boldly withoute proofe affirme then should it not much skill what kind of men wer chosen to be either Pastors or Magistrates for howsoeuer they were before furnished with gifts yet when they be once The absurditie of the R plye called God will miraculously poure vpon them gifts necessary though they be the rudest and ignorantest men in a whole countrey Is not this to boast of the spirit as the Anabaptists do but I thinke the Reader vnderstandeth that God now worketh by ord narie meanes not by miracles And though it be certaine that God dothe endue magistrates such as feare him with singular gifts yet doth he it by meanes as is said and it is not at all times so nor in all persons but whē where and in whome it pleaseth him Therefore to ground any generall doctrine vpon singular examples or to stablish an externall kind of gouernment vpon Gods inward and secret working to bind God vnto that of necessitie that he doth bestow of grace and mercy to make that common to al which he of his infinite wisedome bestoweth vpon some is not the part of a skilfull diuine But to let all this passe you do still petere principium and take that as graunted which you cannot proue that is that the office of Seniors is an office established in the Church by the commaundement of God and not to be altered whiche I for my part can neuer graunt vnto you except you haue more pithie reasons to proue it than any that you haue as yet vttered Chap. 2. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 26. Sect. 1. 2. It is true that we ought to be obedient vnto the ciuill magistrate which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vnto him and according to that callyng But it muste be remembred that 〈◊〉 magistrates must gouerns it according to the rules of God prescribed in his worde and that as they are nourises so they be seruantes vnto the churche and as they rule in the churche so they must remember to subiect themselues vnto the church to submit their scepters to throwe downe their crownes before the churche yea as the prophet speaketh to licke Esay 49. the dust of the feete of the churche Wherin I meane not that the church doth eyther wryng the scepters oute of princes handes or taketh theyr crownes from their heades or that it requyreth princes to licke the dust of her feete as the pope vnder this pretence hath done but I meane as the prophete meaneth that what soeuer magnificence or excellencie or pompe is eyther in them or in their estates and common wealthes whiche dothe not agree with the simplicitie and in the iudgement of the world poore and contemptible estate of the Church that that they will be content to lay downe And here commeth to my minde that wherewith the worlde is nowe dec iued and wherewith M. Doctor goeth about both to deceyue himselfe others too in that he thinketh that the Church must be framed according to the common wealth and the Church gouernment according to the uill gouernment (*) A dangerous doctrine which is as much to say as if a man should fashion his house according to his hangings when as indeede it is cleane contrary that as the hangings are made fit for the house so the common wealth must be made to agree with the Churche and the gouernmente thereof with hir gouernment For as the house is before the hangings and therefore the hangings which come after must be framed to the house which was before so the Churche being before there was y common wealth and the common wealth comming after must be fashioned and made suteable vnto the Church Otherwise God is made to giue place to men heauen to earth and religion is made as it were a rule of Lesbia to be applyed vnto any estate of common wealth whatsoeuer Seing (*) An obscu e and deformed argument that good men that is to say the Church are as it were the foundation of the world it is meete that the common wealth which is builded vpon that foundation should be framed according to the Churche and therefore those voyces ought not to be heard this order will not agree with our common wealth that law of God is not for our state this forme of gouernment wil not match with the pollicie of this realme Io. Whitgifte These words would be well considered for they conteine the ouerthrow of the The ouerthrow of the princes autho ritie conteined in the Reply princes authoritie both in ecclesiasticall and ciuil matters But I will only giue a breefe note of them in this place meaning to set foorth this matter more at large elsewhere When he saith that the ciuill magistrate must gouerne according to his calling and according to the rules of God prescribed in his word c. although the wordes be true et if you marke vpon what occasion they be spoken you shall perceiue the venome that lyeth hid vnder them for he doth thereby insinuate that the ciuill Magistrate may not intermedle with the office of the Senior that is with ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction for he taketh Seniors to be the officers appointed by God for that purpose which is to be reaue the ciuill Magistrate of his authoritie and to giue that to Seniors whiche the Pope vnder the like pretence doth arrogate vnto himselfe And therefore w ll and truly sayth M. Gualter in the place before recited Those men meaning suche as Gualter call for Seniors when they haue a Christian Magistrate do distinguish betweene the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in respect of the punishmente of sinnes and the discipline of manners But this distinction is taken out of the Popes shoppe and in the holy scriptures it is no where to be found For there is the same reason of the magistrate in the new Testament that was in times past in the old for so much as Christ hathe sayde that he came not to breake the law but to fulfill it But in times past the Iudges and kings had power to punish those that
especially séeing that Ambrose Hieronis auncient denieth the same to haue bin in his tyme. But if hauing one onely testimonie and that making nothing for your purpose but agaynst you rather bicause it establisheth Collegiate Churches which you would gladly throwe downe then M. Doctors knowledge in thys matter is more than you can with all your loftie spéeches immodest words obscure I haue alleaged so muche of Ambrose faythfully aud truely as proueth that which I alleage him for Neyther haue I left out one worde that maketh agaynst that my purpose for if you remember your selfe you can not but sée and vnderstande that I only alleage Ambrose to proue that there was sometime a Seigniorie but yet dissolued and abrogated before his time If that whiche followeth in Ambrose disproue this then in déede you may say that eyther I am abused or desire to abuse other But if it nothing derogate from my intent and purpose then why do you falsly charge me or why picke you a quarel agaynst me for omitting that which neyther doth me harme nor good Disproue any thing by any words of Ambrose that I haue alleaged Ambrose for if you can if you can not then temper your immoderate spéeches frame them according to the truthe If Ambrose so misliked y e abrogating of this Seigniorie why did he not labour to restore it agayne surely if it had bin a matter so necessarie he béeing so godly and zelous a Bishop would neuer haue suffered his Church to be spoyled of it but it is euident by his words that it had not bin in practise long time before Chap. 2. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. Now that I haue shewed the place I will say no more I will leaue it to M. Doctor to think of it in his chamber by himselfe and so will conclude this question that for so much as this order is such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised and that whyche is commaunded by the scriptures approued and receyued by all the Churches in the Apostles tymes and many hundred yeres after in the most florishing churches both in time of peace and in time of persecution and that there are greater causes why it shoulde be in the time of peace than in tyme of persecution why rather vnder a christian prince than vnder a tyrant why rather nowe than in the Apostles tymes that in consideration of these things the Eldership is necessarie and suche an order as the Churche ought not be without Io. Whitgifte It forceth not greatly whether you say any more of it or no for as it nothing hindreth my purpose so winneth it no credite vnto yours And for asmuch as the Church may muche better be gouerned and the principall offices of charitie much better exercised by the ciuil Magistrate than by these Seniors and séeing that this kinde of gouernment is neyther commaunded in the scriptures nor practised in the Church as a kinde of gouernment not to be altered séeing also that it bringeth in confusion derogateth from that authoritie that God hath giuen to the ciuil Magistrate howsoeuer it hath héeretofore bin vsed yet is there no cause why it should nowe or at any tyme vnder Christian Princes be of necessitie reteyned Chap. 2. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. And so also is answered the thirde question that for so muche as they were Churche officers a The place Heb. 13. is quoted only for the phrase for it pro ueth nothing in question and ouer the people in matters perteyning to God and such as watched ouer the soules of men a Heb. 13. that therfore although they were not Pastors to preache the word yet were they no lay men as they terme them but ecclesiasticall persons Io. Whitgifte M. Beza in an Epistle that is prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Beza Hel tia speaking of the Seigniorie sayth that there must be a great consideration had that Princes and noble men and suche as haue authoritie and preheminence in the Churche be chosen to be of the Seigniorie and will you make noble men and Princes ecclesiasticall persons and suche as must watche ouer the soules of men in déede those that be called Presbyteri in the Scriptures be Ecclesiasticall persons for they be ministers of the worde and Sacraments And M. Caluine Institut cap. 8. sect 52. Caluine sayth that all the Seniors were ministers of the worde His words be these Habebant ergo singulae Ciuitates Presbyterorū collegium qui pastores erant Doctores nam apud populū munus docendi exhortandi corrigendi quod Paulus Episcopis iniungit OMNES obibant for euery Citie had a Colledge of Seniors which were Pastors and teachers for they dyd all exercise among the people the offyce of teaching exhorting and correcting which Paule dothe inioyne to Bishops But howe can you make your Seniors ecclesiasticall séeing your Seigniorie must consist of noble men gentlemen marchauntmen husbandmen handycraftesmen as Taylors Shomakers Carpenters c. euen suche as the most part of the Parish will choose Chap. 2. the. 29. Diuision Admonition Then the sentence was tempred according (h) 1. Ti. 1. 20. to the notoriousnesse of the fact Nowe on the one 〈◊〉 eyther hatred agaynst some persons carrieth men headlong into rash and cruell iudgement or else fauour affection or money mitigateth the rigour of the same and all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment lefte of Christ (i) Mat. 18. 7. 1. Co. 12. 28 Rom. 12. 8. 1. Ti. 5. 17. Act. 15. 2. 4 6. 22. 23. to his Churche is committed into one mans hands whome alone it shall be more easie for the wicked by bribing to peruert than to ouerthrow the fayth pietie of a zelous and godly companie for suche maner of men in deede (k) Exod. 18. 21 Deut. 1. 13. should the Seniors be Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 130. Sect. vlt. Pag. 131. 132. Pag. 133. Lin. vlt. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. You say all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment left of Christ to his Church is committed vnto one mans hands and for the proofe of this you note in the margent the. 18. of Mat. the. 12. of the first to the Corin. the. 12. to the Rom. the. 5. of the first to Timoth. the. 15. of the Acts whiche places beeing examined let the discrete Reader iudge howe aptly they serue for your purpose In the. 18. of Math. Christ sayeth on this sort If thy brother trespasse agaynst thee go and tell him his fault betvveene him and thee alone c. In the which place it is by the consent of all interpreters manifest that Christe prescribeth a rule of correcting priuate and secrete sinnes and not of suche as be open and knowne to others For he would not haue pryuate and secrete sinnes blased abroad publikely reprehended before the partie offending be in this order
beyond all mē in saucinesse neither bring they any thing with thē from home but a vayne intollerable contempt of all good men neyther can they abide to be corrected by any admonition of others M. Caluine speaking of the gouernment of the Church Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 120. sayeth thus Scimus politiam pro varietate temporū recipere imo exigere varias mutationes VVe know that the pollicie of the Church doth receiue nay rather doth require diuerse alterations Caluine Beza M. Beza likewise Lib. confess Cap. 5. Sect. 17 is of the same minde touching the gouernmēt of the Churche There was another cause of the Ecclesiasticall assemblies that they might ordeyne canons of Ecclesiasticall discipline and that I may cōprehende many things in few wordes that they might appoynt ecclesiasticall policie for the diuerse circūstances of times places and persones For it is necessarie all thinges should be donne orderly in the house of God of the vvhich order there is one generall reason to be taken out of the worde of God but not one and the same forme agreable to all circūstances And Section 32. speaking of this Seigniorie he sheweth that it was necessarie in the Churche whilest there was no Christian magistrate For so he writeth But there Idem were Elders chosen by suffrages or at least by the approbation of the whole cōpanie as it is very euident out of Ambrose which complayneth that certayne men had transferred this authoritie to themselues and ut of Cyprian likewise by whom we may also vnderstand that the Bishop did rule ouer the colledge of Elders not that he should there reygne but that by their cōsent he might rule the Policie of the church especially for so much as at that time the Churches of Affrica were not helped of the Magistrate but were rather cruelly vexed of them And Sect. 35. speaking generally of the gouernment of the Churche he sayeth Neyther must we simply looke what was done of the Apostles in the Gouernment Idem of the church seyng there are most diuerse circumstances and therfore vvithout preposterous zeale all thinges canot in all places and times be called to one and the same forme but rather the end and inuariable purpose of them must be looked vnto and that manner and forme of doing things is to be chosen which doth directly tende therevnto This is the iudgement of these learned men neyther do I know any that thinketh the contrarie except such as make poste haste to that braunch of Anabaptisme Sixtly either we must admitte another forme now of gouerning the Church than 6. The iurisdietion of the christian magistrate implieth a chāge of the firste kinde of gouernment was in the Apostles time or els we must seclude the Christian magistrate from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters attribute no more to him therein than was attributed to Nero in the Apostles time for in those dayes there was no Christian Prince to gouerne the church But Christian Princes haue must haue y e chief care gouernment of the Church next vnder God Ergo the same forme of gouernment cannot be now nor ought to be that was in the Apostles time Thus it is euident that the grounde whereof T. C. hath buylded his whole booke is a false ground contrarie to the Scriptures the practise of the Church the opinions The grounde of the Replie of learned men and the lawfull and iust authoritie of christian Princes and therefore the building is ruinous and cannot stande ¶ Of certayne matters concerning discipline in the Churche Tract 18. Of Excommunication and in vvhom the execution thereof doth consist Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Let vs come now to the third part which concerneth ecclesiasticall discipline the officers that haue to deale in this charge are chiefly three Ministers Preachers or Pastours of wheme before Seniors or Elders and Deacons Concerning Seniors not only their office but their name also is out of this English Church vtterly remoued Their office was to (q) Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 1 28. gouerne the churche with the reste of the Ministers to consulte to admonish to correcte and to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 112. Sect. 3. What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiasticall discipline I thinke the only discipline that we haue in the whole new testamēt except you will make admonition exhortation a part of it is Excōmunication and the execution of that is only committed to the ministers of the worde Math. 16. Iohn 20. Examples hereof wee haue Onely 〈◊〉 misters may excōmunicate ▪ 1. Cor. 5. 1. Tim. 1. ad Titum 3. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 2. Now I returne back againe to excommunication which M. Doctor thinketh to be y e only discipline in the church but he should vnderstande that beside y ◠part of priuate discipline which is ordinarily daily to be exercised by euery one of y e pastors elders as admonition reprehension there are thre principal partes which are exercised of thē ioyntly together wherof the first is the election or choise the abdication or putting out of ecclesiastical officers The seconde is in excommunication of the stubborne or absolution of the repentant The thirde is the decision of all such matters as doe rise in the church either touching corrupt manners or peruerse doctrine Io. Whitgifte I speake of y e publike discipline of y e church not of priuate admonition reprehension which may be called by y e name of Discipline but neither are they properly nor vsually so called except you wil also say y e publike preaching reading of y e scriptures is discipline these be things annexed to discipline but vnproperly termed by y e name Wherin discipline cōsisteth of discipline Your partition of discipline into those three parts in my poore iudgemēt is very vnskilful for discipline cōsisteth in punishing correcting of vice neither yet is the deciding of controuersies in matters doubtfull properly called discipline for discipline is exercised in punishing correcting y e persons not decioing y e causes Wherfore I thinke you haue forgottē your self in steade of y e part haue deuided y e whole that is you haue made a diuision of gouernment wheras you tooke vpon you to deuide discipline which is but a part of ecclesiasticall pollicie or gouernment Reade the generall confession of y e Christian churches in Heluetia tell me what it differeth from any thing y e I haue said Call to your remēbrance that which your selfe Pag. 1. 4. li 9 haue spoken pag. 14. where you call other censures of the church but forerunners to excommunication but this is a contention only about words therfore inough is said of it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 3. As touching the
vnto the poore and these are the Deacons And as in the former part I shewed there were two kindes so in this latter part the same is to be noted that of those whose charge was ouer the poore some had charge ouer all the poore of the Church as those which are called Deacons some had charge ouer the poore straungers and those poore which were sicke onely and those S. Paule calleth in one place Diaconisses and in an other place widowes 16. Rom. For the Deacons did distribute vnto the necessities as wel of the poore strangers the sick poore 1. Tim. 5. as vnto the other poore of the Church And the widowes did imploy their labors to she washing of the feete of y e strangers attending vpon the poore which were sick had no friends to keepe thē Io. Whitgifte There is no great matter in all this sauing only that I would gladly learne where the office of widowes Diaconesses is restreyned to poore straungers onely and such as be sicke féeing that the other poore that be neyther straungers nor sicke may néede their helpe in sundrie things as well as they and séeing also that neyther in the. 16. to the Rom. nor in the. 1. Tim. 5. which you quoted in the margent there is any such restraynt made or to be gathered but the contrarie almost in expresse wordes Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Admonition Touching Deacons though their names be remayning yet is the office fouly peruerted and turned vpside downe for their dutie in the primitiue Church was to (s) Rom. 12. 8. gather the almes diligently and to distribute it faythfully also for the sicke and impotent persons to prouide painfully hauing euer a diligent care that the charitie of godly men were not wasted vpon loyterers (t) 2. Thes. 3. 10 and idle vagabonds Now it is the first step to the ministerie nay rather a mere order of Priesthoode Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 118. Sect. 2. In the whole 12. Chapter of the Epistle to the Romaines there is More perteyneth to the office of Deacons than prouision for the poore not one worde to proue the office of a Deacon to consist in gathering almes and distributing the same neyther yet doth he speake there of the office of a Deacon no more doth he in the thirde Chapter of the seconde Epistle to the Thessalo Lorde God what meane you thus to play with the Scriptures T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 2. First I will speake of the Deacons and whereas M. Doctor crieth out of daliying with the scriptures for alledging the. 8. verse of the twelfe vnto the Romaines to proue Deacons affirming that there is no worde of them Truly I can find no wordes to set forth this so grosse ignorance And had it not beene enough for master Doctor to haue vttered this ignorance but he must also with an outcrie proclaime it and as it were spread the banner of it What doe these wordes note he that distributeth in simplicitie but the office of the Deaconship for in that place S. Paule reekeneth vy all the ordinarie and perpetuall offices of the Church as the office of the Doctor of the Pastor of the Deacon of the elder and leaueth not out so much as the widow which he noteth in these wordes shewing mercie If the Authours of the Admonition do dally with the scriptures in this place surely Master Caluine Master Beza Master Bucer Peter Martyr c. doe dally with them And shall all these be esteemed to play with the Scriptures And Master Doctor onely to handle them seriously Io. Whitgifte I thinke rather this clause he that distributeth let him do it with simplicitie is Rom. 12. 8. spoken to such as be able to helpe the poore that they should do it willingly and simplie for Christes sake not for vaine glorie or any other like respect For the whole scope of that Chapter is to moue such as beléeue in Christ to good lyfe and conuersation neyther doth the Apostle speake of the Ministers of the Church onely but of all Christians of what vocation or calling so euer they be And therefore this sentence being generall and spoken to all of abilitie it may also include Deacons but I sée not how it can be particularly restreyned to them Origen vpon this place saith The Origen in 12. Rom. Apostle sayth that he which giueth and bestoweth any thing vpon the poore must do it in simplicitie of heart that is that he seeme not to benefite the poore and in heart seeke the prayse of men VVherefore it is not simplicitie if one thing seeme to be done outwardly and in heart another be sought for Chrysostome likewise expounding these wordes Chrysost. in 12. Rom. sayth It sufficeth not to giue but it must also be done bountifully c. So doth the Gréeke Scholiast Theodorete Theophilact Ambrose Hierome all these do vnderstand this place not of the Deacons who distribute other mens almes but of such as giue almes themselues and relieue the poore with theyr owne substance Master Bullinger also doth admit and well allowe this interpretation Wherfore you sée that I haue good grounde of my saying when I sayde that he did not speake there of the office of a Deacon You say that Paule reckeneth vp here all ordinarie and perpetuall offices of the Churche but you speake it onely you proue it not he speaketh here of prophecying and you denie the office of a Prophete to be perpetuall You say he speaketh here of Wydowes and I denie their office to be perpetuall Moreouer it is certaine that hee speaketh in this place of gyftes profitable to the Churche and some of them common as well to Ciuill as to Ecclesiasticall persons as all learned Fathers in theyr Commentaryes vppon this place doe confesse and so doeth Maister Bullinger in lyke manner and so I thinke muste all other doe that well consyder the drift of S. Paule in that Chapter and the profitable lessons the Apostle th re giueth to all and euerie sort of men Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 2. And as Master Doctors ignorance appeareth in this place so his minde not 〈◊〉 of the truth but seeking to cauill doth as manifestly shew it selfe For all men see that the Admonition alledgeth not the place to the Thessalonians to proue the office of Deacons but to shewe that ydle vagabonds might not haue any of that reliefe which belongeth vnto those which be poore in deede which thing appeareth both by the placing of the quotation ouer agaynst that allegation and by the letter which directeth therevnto Io. Whitgifte Bilike that place was onely quoted for the phrase else I sée not to what ende i serueth except it be to proue the office of a Deacon For to what purpose should they note it to proue that ydle vagabondes shoulde haue none of that reliefe séeing that is not denyed nor yet in question Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C.
beware of this doctrine the whiche vnlesse I proue to be the selfe same with the Papistes in substance let me susteine that punishement that is due vnto them whome I burden charge with forgetfulnes of dutie in this poynt Saunders in that trayterous booke of his wryteth thus That hath deceiued many Saunders the Rep er agree bicause they see kings to be Christians and to rule ouer Christians for they knowe not or at the least they will not knowe what difference there is whether thou rule ouer a Christian in that he is a Christian or in that he is a man For a king ruleth ouer Christian men but not Saunders bicause they bee Christians but bicause they bee men and bicause byshoppss be men in that respect he ruleth also ouer them c. And. T. C. in his Reply pag. 35. writeth on this Pag. 5. in the miast manner saying That the godlye Magistrate is the head of the common wealth but not of the churche meaning that particular churche conteyned in the common wealth whereof he is gouernour and in the same page he saith that the Christian Magistrate is but only a member of that particular churche And pag 145. he sayeth That the Prynce may well bee Pag. 〈◊〉 Sed 1. Monarche immediatly betwene God and the common wealth and not betwene God the church in that common wealth or any singular member in the church and in this place he would haue the ciuill Magistrate no more to intermedle with making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders than the ecclesiasticall minister should deale with ciuill diuers such nippes and pinches he hath at the ciuill Magistrate speaking no other wyse of hym than of a Turke or a Iewe and giuing him no more authoritie in the church of Christe and ouer Christians than if hee were the great Turke or wicked Nero. But I answere them bothe with the wordes of M. Musculus in his common places Titu de Magistratu Let Ethnickes and infidels whiche liue not in the vnitie of truthe but in the confusion of errour haue their diuers lawes Musculus and magistrates some prophane and some holy whose whole life is prophane whose religion is but ecclesiasticall superstition and in the temple only Christian people are altogether hely and dedicated to the name of Christe not in temples only and ecclesiasticall rites but in their whole life in euery place at al times in all things in al deedes and studies that according to the admonitiō of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eate or drinke or whatsoeuer he doth all may be done to the glory of God and Col. 3. whatsoeuer he doth in woorde or in deede hee doe it in the name of the Lorde c. VVherefore that distinction of Ecclesiasticall prophane lawes hath no place in it bicause there is nothing in it that is prophane seeing it is a people holy to the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie is holy his lawes are holy his sword is holy a reuenger of the wicked and vngodly whereby he serueth the Lorde being the chiefe lawmaker and iudge our members are the members of Christ and our bodies are the bodies of the holy ghost we are willed to glorifie God not in our spirit onely but in our bodie also 1. Cor. 6. Therefore this be sarre 〈◊〉 authoritie Pap t s giue to the 〈◊〉 in ec 〈◊〉 from the church of Christ that it should be partly holy and partly prophane holy before and prophane behinde lyke vnto an Idoll which sheweth beautifull before and behinde is full of filth and Spyders webbes Againe the Papistes giue to the Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters Potestatem facti and not iuris that is to sée those lawes executed and put in practise that the Pope and his Clergie shall make and to bée as it were their executioner but not to make any lawes or orders in Ecclesiastical matters for so writeth Saunders in his book before named Fol. 64. Although I doe not denye but that the knowledge of a Saunders facte that belongeth to the ecclesiasticall lawe may be committed to kings and Magistrates and before the ecclesiastical cause be determined the king may vse his authoritie to this end that there may be some quiet place prepared where the bishops shall cōsulte and that the bishops be called to the same place at a certein day and that in the meane time while the matter is in determining cōmon peace may be preserued euen among the priests them selues to conclude after the cause be determined and iudged by the priests the king may punishe him with the sworde which he carieth not in vaine or by some other corporall punishmēt which shal refuse to obey the sentence of the priests Therfore we do not deny but that kings haue something to do both before and at and after the iudgements of the bishops but in the office of iudging they haue no more to do than other priuate persons for they may well giue councell and declare what they thinke but they may not determine or define what Gods lawes or the ecclesiastical lawe doth require And doth not T. C. in this place affirme the Potestas facti not iuris ascribed to the magistrates same onely herein he séemeth something to differ y t if the ecclesiastical gouernours shall make any orders vnmeete the magistrate may driue them to better But what if they saye they be méete will stand to it as you do now in this fonde platforme will they not crye out vpon the magistrate saye that he is a persecutour a mainteiner of an vnlawfull authoritie of that which is against the glorie of God if he withstande thē as the authours of the seconde Admonition do in playne termes saying For though the orders be and ought to be drawen out of the booke of God yet it is her Maiestie that by her princely 2. Admonit pag. 60. authoritie should see euery of these thyngs put in practise and punyshe those that neglect them making lawes therefore for the churche may keepe those orders but neuer in peace except the comfortable and blessed assistance of the states and gouernours imcke in to see them in their countreis and vsed for otherwyse the church maye and must keepe Gods orders but alwaies in troubles and persecution which is like to light vpon vs except a reformation of religion or a direct prouiso for vs bee made for surely only this is God his order and ought to be vsed in his churche so that in conscience we are forced to speake for it and to vse it and in conscience and in reuerence of God we are forced to speake as we do of that reformation which we nowe vse not so much for ought else as to set out the deformities thereof that we might thinke vpon the amending of them M. Musculus in the booke and title before recited setteth out this Popish
Sozom. lib. 1. cap. 17 tom con to the Fathers of the Nicene Councell and to the Ecclesiasticall persons there gathered whiche he dothe also permitte the Byshops Elders and Deacons of Churches to do (*) A great ouersight eyther by correcting or adding or making newe if neede be And by the continuall practise of the Churche in the tyme of Christian Emperours whiche alwayes permitted vnto the ministers assembled in councels ▪ as well the determination of controuersies whiche rose as the making or the abolishing of needefull or hurtfull ceremonies as the ease requyred Also by the Emperours epistle in the first action of the councell of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperour it appeareth that it was the manner of the Emperours to confirme the ordināces which were made by the ministers and to see them kept Io. Whitgifte I learne in Eusebius Lib. 1. de vita Constan. that Constantinus is called as it were Euseb. lib. 1. de vita Const. Constantinus his rule in ecclesiasticall matters a generall Bishop appoynted of God that he also called Synodes and placed the moderator in them I learne in that seconde Booke that he made lawes and constitutions perteyning to holynesse towardes God and to the appoynting of meete thinges for the Churches of God that there shoulde be no Images worshipped none erected and set vp no enchauntmentes vsed or so thsayinges And I learne in that same Epistle Lib. 2. by you quoted that Constantinus prescribed to Eusebius what he shoulde do and what Epist. ad Eusel he should will others to do in buylding and repayring of Church ▪ s or enlarging of them neyther is there mention made of anyother Lawes or constitutions in that Epistle 〈◊〉 grosse ouersight of T. C. and surely I beleeue that those woordes whiche Constantinus speaketh to Eusebius of buylding or repayring or enlarging Churches buylded of stone you vnderstande of making restoring or enlarging of Ecclesiasticall orders and Lawes whiche if you do as your woordes playnely signifie then vnderstande you not the place abuse your Reader and caste away an argument For Constantinus woordes to Eusebius be thesc Howe hitherto by that wicked sentence and tyrannie persecuting Lib. 2. Eus. de vita Con lant Epist. ad Eus. the Ministers of our Sauiour the buyldinges of the Churches are decayed and weakened thorough negligence or soulde and made vyle for feare of imminent daunger I knowe and am fully perswaded but nowe libertie beyng restored and that Dragon thorough the prouidence of God and our ministerie banished from the gouernment of the common wealth I thinke Gods power is made manifest to all and that those whiche haue fallen into certayne sinnes eyther for feare or thorough vnbeleefe and nowe knowe the truthe Eusthius gouernour of me churches than one will returne agayne to the true and right waye of lyfe therefore admonishe all Churches whiche thou doest gouerne or any other Churches vnder the gouernment of other Bishops Priestes or Deacons that they be diligent aboute the buyldyng of theyr Churches and that they eyther repayre suche as stande still or enlarge them or if necessitie requyre buylde them newe and thou thy selfe or other for thee may requyre of the gouernours and Magistrates in the prouinces those thinges that be necessarie It is playne that Constantine in these woordes speaketh onely of materiall Churches and therefore you are greatly deceyued But if it were as you say do you not sée howe it maketh agaynst The place agaynst 〈◊〉 your selfe for what dothe more plainely appeare in that you saye he permitteth this vnto the Bishops c. than that the authoritie was in him and they were but his vicegerentes The continuall practise of Christian Churches in the tyme of Christian Magistrates Christian Princes haue exercised su authoritie in ecclesiastical cases Sozomenus lib. 1. cap. 17. before the vsurpation of the Bishop of Rome hath bene to giue to Christian Princes supreme authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall orders and lawes yea and that whiche is more in deciding of matters of religion euen in the chiefe and principall poyntes And that booke and chapter of Sozomene by you quoted declareth the same For the Bishops that came to the Councell of Nyce committed the hearing determining of theyr controuersies to the Emperour which argueth that it was then a common and vndoubted opinion receyued among them that the Emperour had authoritie to iudge in their causes and although the Emperour of modestie refused so to do saying that it was not meete for them so to vse themselues that they shoulde be iudged of other yet I am sure you will not make this a rule to exempt the Cleargie from the iurisdiction of the Ciuill Magistrate vnlesse you will take holde with the Pope and saie VVe muste iudge all and be iudged of none ▪ This modestie in Constantinus in refusing to heare the matters in controuersis among the Bishops excepted there is nothing in that firste booke and 17 ▪ chapter of Sozomene that can by any meanes serue your turne If you say that he woulde not determine any thing agaynst Arius heresie but A wise prince will take the aduise of the learned in discussing of weighty matters committed the same to the Synode and Councell of Nice I answere that therein be nothing at all abridged his authoritie ▪ but shewed his wisedome and godly care For it is the parte of a wise and godly Prince to haue such weightie matters of doctrine beyng in controuersie decreed and determined by suche as for their authoritie wisedome and learning are moste fitte to entreate of suche matters But alas how doth this argument follow Constantinus called the Councell of Nice to determine certayne matters of religion in controuersie therefore he had no authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall orders and lawes What Councell of Constantinople was that if you meane the. 5. beyng celebrated Iustinian made many Ecclesiasticall lawes Anno. 549. in the tyme of Iustinianus it is a very late testimonie for this cause the Bishops of Rome beyng then in great authoritie and yet manifest it is that no Emperour made mo Ecclesiasticall lawes bothe concerning matters of order and also of doctrine than did the Emperour Iustinianus as may be séene in the Code vnder these Titles De summa trinitate fide Catholica De sacrosanctis Ecclesijs de Episcopis Clericis de Haereticis Manichaeis Samaritanis ne sanctum Baptisma iteretur de statuis imaginibus and a number such like If you meane the sixth Councell of Constantinople as it lyke you do then are you without my compasse for that Councell was Anno. 681. and who will alleage Constantinus ▪ rogon ▪ gouerned the councell of Constantinople on 681. any authoritie of that corrupt tyme for any suche matter in controuersie and yet it is certayne that Constantinus the Emperoure did gouerne that Councell and that the Bishops on bothe sides did pleade before him at
as it was in the beginning of the reygnes of Ezechias and Iosias and as ▪ it hath oftentimes bene must all be committed to them then also No godly Princes hauing godly Bishops and ministers of the Churche will alter or chaunge determine or appoynt any thing in matters of religion without their aduise and counsayle But how if there be dissention among them shall not the Prince determine the controuersies as Constantinus Theodosius and other godly Emperours did wherefore the méetnesse of the Priests and Bishops doth not take away any authoritie from godly Princes in matters of the Church The. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 155. Lin. 5. And this is not M. Doctor (*) It is nothing els as will appeare to shake hands with the Papistes For the Papistes would exempt their Priestes from the subiection and from the punishment of the ciuill magistrate which we do not And y e Papists would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determine that that sorthwith shoulde be holden for good and the Prince shoulde be foorthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that be it good or euill without further inquitie but we saye (a) Why then more than at eiher timess or hawe proue you this ▪ that if there be no lawfull ministerie to set good orders as in ruinous decayes and ouerthrowes of religion that then the Prince ought to do it and if when there is a lawfull ministerie it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order that the Prince ought to stay that order and not to suffer it but to driue them to that whiche is lawfull and meete and if this be to shake handes with the papistes then M. Doctor is to blame whiche hath taught vs once or twise before that the appoynting of ceremonies of the churche belongeth vnto the churche And yet I knowe that there is one or two of the later writers that thinke otherwise but as I take no aduantage of their authoritie which thinke as I do so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise But for so muche as we haue M. Doctor yet of this iudgement that the churche ceremonies shoulde be ordeyned by the church I will trauayle no further in this matter considering that the practise of this churche commonly is to referre these matters vnto the Ecclesiasticall persons onely this is the difference that where it is done now of one or a fewe wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe Io. Whitgifte The papistes confese that the prince may punish priest 5 Harding Yes in good sooth is it for M. Harding agaynst the Apologie confesseth that the Ciuill Magistrate may punishe with corporall punishment any estate or degrée of persons offending eyther agaynst the first or second table And Saunders sayeth lib. 2. That Bishops in that they be men be subiect to ciuill Magistrates and therefore in that Saunders li 2. poynt the Papistes graunt as much as you Concerning the determination of matters in religion I know not wherein you differ from them for though the Prince mislike your determination yet can he not him selfe conclude any thing onely he may compell you to go to it agayne and The Replier giueth to the Prince no more than potestatem facti take better holde but if it shall please you to go forewarde in your determination or if you cannot agrée among your selues I see not what authoritie you haue giuen to the Ciuill Magistrate to determine the matter but for ought that I can espie if you and your Seniors be disposed to be peeuishe eyther muste the Prince haue no Religion or els that which you shall appoynt vnto him for potestatem facti you giue him that is you make him your executioner but potestatem iuris you do as fully remoue from him as the papists do for he hath not as you say any authoritie to make orders or lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters Saunders sayeth and so say all the Papistes that he hath authoritatem promouendi Saunders religionem authoritie to promote religion but not constituendi to appoynte and therefore vndoubtedly I perceyue not wherein you differ in this Article from the Papistes In the chiefe poynt I am sure that you agree fully and flatly with them and vse their argumentes and none other that is in this that you take from the eiuill Magistrate omnem potestatem iuris in matters and causes Ecclesiasticall And what Scripture haue you to proue that the ciuill Magistrates authoritie The Replier vttreth strāge doctrine with out proofe yet woulde haue all proued by scripture is not as ample and as large in matters of religion when there is a lawfull ministerie as when there is an vnlawfull ministerie In deede when he hath the one he may the more safely vse their aduise and followe theyr counsell which he neyther may nor ought to do when he hath the other but his authoritie is all one ouer them bothe and surely I marueyle that you will vtter suche straunge assertions so peremptorily without any kinde of proofe For you that woulde haue all thinges proued by the Scriptures haue not in this wayghtie cause vsed one texte of Scripture but onely one borrowed of the Papistes and making directly agaynst you When I say that the Churche hath authoritie to appoynt Ceremonies I speake generally of all states of the Churche as well vnder persecution as vnder a Christian Magistrate not secluding but including the Christian Magistrate as the chiefe and principall gouernour of the Churche committed to him nexte vnder God for I do not speake of a Christian Magistrate as you and the Papistes woulde haue me to witte as of Iulius Cesar Alexander or Nero but I speake of him as one appoynted by God to gouerne not only in the common wealth but in the Churche also Yea I will go further with you I make no difference betwixte No suche difference betweene a christian common wealth the Church as is pretended a Christian common wealth and the Churche of Christe wonder you as muche at it as you will I haue shewed my reasons before and you haue not as yet vsed any to the contrarie wherefore if you thinke no otherwise of this cause than I haue in these woordes taught you the ciuill Magistrate shall be much more beholden vnto you than he is Certaynely I knowe not of any of the late wryters one or two excepted that are of your iudgement in this cause and were it not that the same is learnedly and fully handled almoste of all the late wryters and namely of suche as haue in our tongue notably and learnedly defended this truth of the Princes authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters agaynst the English Louanistes who haue especially sought to impeach the same I woulde in more ample manner haue prosecuted this cause But for as much as their bookes are in euery mans handes it shall be sufficient to referre the Reader to my Lorde
daye you sayde it was a very simple Sermon that had not some goodnesse Page 123. Sect. 1. and edyfying and very slender meate whiche is not better beyng gyuen euerye daye than the best and deyntyest meate once onelye in a month c. And howe can hée bée taken so vnprouided that is able to preach so often or why should the woorde of God be more negligently handled by a minister preaching a funerall sermon vpon suddeyne warning than by the same minister preaching two sermons euery daye your memory waxeth feble towardes the ende of your booke else would you not haue so reasoned against your selfe But why may not he that preacheth a funerall sermon haue sufficient warning or if he haue not why may he not refuse to preache it There is no order or lawe that doth of necessitie binde him vnto it Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 162. Sect. 2. Moreouer considering that these funerall sermons are at the request of ryche men and those which are in authoritie and are very seldome at the buriall of the poore there is brought into the church contrary to the worde of God an acceptation of persones which ought not to bee For although the minister may giue to one more honour than to an other according as the calling or degree requireth yet in his ministerie and that which perteyueth vnto his office he ought to shew him selfe indifferent and therefore preache as well at the death of the poore as of the ryche and bicause he cannot well do both it is moste conuenient to leaue both Io. Whitgifte This is your thirde reason but it toucheth only the persone and not the cause for it reproueth the minister for not preaching as well at the buriall of the poore as of the ryche which if it be a faulte it is the fault of the man not of the thing and therfore no good reason to condemne funerall sermons But you saye he can not do both and therfore it is moste conuenient that he leaue both shall he at no tyme do good bicause he can not do it at all tymes bicause he is not able to preache euery daye shall he not therefore preache once in the wéeke or if he be not able to preache once in the wéeke shall hée not therefore being able preache once in a fortnight what kinde of reasoning call you this And yet if your reason for preaching twyse a day before mentioned be good and allowable I knowe not why y e minister may not be able to preach at the burial as well of the poore as of the ryche and yet there may be sometymes more occasion to preache at the buriall of the ryche than at the buriall of the poore neither is this that acceptatiō of persons which is in scripture prohibited for there be degrées of persons and seuerall dignities Howbeit funeral sermons be rather in the respect of the liuing than of the dead Chap. 6. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 162. Sect. 2. If so be that M. Doctor will saye that it is good that notable and famous men should haue their commendation to the ende that both the goodnes of God towardes them might be the better knowen and others the sooner drawen to followe their example I graunt it is so and the scripture doth both approue it and sheweth what meane is best to do that by For so we reade that Ieremy 2. Chro. 35. 2. sam 1. and. 3. the Prophete commēded that godly and zealous Prince Iosias in writing verses of his death He could haue as easely preached but this he thought the best waye So did also Dauid wryte verses at the death of Saule and Ionathan and Abner in which he commendeth their giftes and graces which the Lord had bestowed vpon them There were in deede of auncient tyme funerall orations as appeareth in Gregorie Nazianzene but they sauoured of the manner of Athens where he was brought by where also this custome of funerall orations was vsed as may be seene in the seconde booke of Thucidides story by an oration of Pericles And although this custome was not in Nazianzens time so corrupte as afterwardes yet the departing from the examples of the purer churches gaue occasion of further corruption which ensued And to say the truthe it was better vsed amongst the Athenians than amongst the Christians For there it was merely ciuill and the oration at the death of some notable personage made not by a minister but by an orator appointed therfore which I thinke may well be done Io. Whitgifte Ieremie lamented Iosias death and writte verses vpon it Dauid also writte verses at the death of Saule there were funerall orations in Nazianzens time and it is lawefull to haue orations at the death of noble personages c. therefore there may be no funerall sermons this argument hath neither necessary nor probable conclusion for they may both bée vsed and be so commonly at the buriall of notable personages M. Foxe reporting the vse of the The order of the Primitiue churche in funerals Primitiue churche in this matter sayth thus In funeralles priestes then flocked not together selling Trentalles and Diriges for sweping of purgatorie but onely a funerall concion was vsed with Psalmes of praises and songs of their worthy deedes and alleluia sounding M. Foxe par 1 Pag. 146. on highe which did shake the golden seelings of the temple as witnesseth Nazianzene Ambrose and Ierome c. Chap. 6. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 162. Sect. 2. And if M. Doctor will saye that there might be sermons although they be not mentioned neither in the olde Testament nor in the newe I haue answered before that seeing the holy Ghost doth describe so diligently the least circumstances of buriall he would not haue omitted that being the greatest And let it be obserued that this deuise of mans brayne bringeth foorth the same fruite that other do that is dryueth quite awaye a necessary dutie of the minister which is to comforte with the worde of God the parties which be greeued at the death of their friendes that considering the sore is particular he applye vnto it a particular playster which is very seldome or neuer doone and yet a necessary dutie as of a good Christian so especially of the minister whiche can best doe it and to whome it moste apperteyneth Io. Whitgifte No I saye not only that which you do not sufficiently improue but this also that if there were none such then yet may there be nowe being a matter perteyning to edifying and to the preaching of the Gospell of Christe And you can no more proue by this argument that there ought to be no funerall sermons than you can proue that there ought to be no women at the receiuing of the communion or no baptisme mininistred in churches with diuers such like things wherof there is no expresse mention that they were in the Apostles time An other of your weighty argumēts is this The minister
made with scraping the sée vpon the ground as it is vsed by them in derision so is it of it selfe ridiculeus and not worthie to be answered besides it is vntrue for it hindereth no more the worde béeing read than hawking and spitting bindereth the same being preached But Lorde how sparing are you of time that will not spare so much as may serue a man to bow his knée in Well it is but a pretence to helpe out with a merie argument for I dare say neyther they nor you are so vndiscrete as to vse it in good sadnesse Their second reason hash some more grauitie in it though not much more weight and your addition that it may breede a daungerous opinion of the inequalitie eyther of the Sanne of God with the other persons or of the Gospell with other Scriptures is but supposed and a man may suppose the Moone to be made of gréene chéese That gesture at the name of Iesus hath hitherto continued in the Church many hundred yeares and yet neuer any was heard tell of that fell into eyther of these opinions by the meanes thereof One reason that moued Christians in the beginning the rather to bow at the Why Christians bowed at the name of Iesus name of Iesus than at any other name of God was bicause this name was most hated and most contemned of the wicked Iewes and other persecutors of such as professed the name of Iesus for the other names of God they had in reuerence but this they could not abide wherefore the Christians to signifie their fayth in Iesus and theyr obedience vnto him and to confute by open gesture the wicked opinion of the Iewes and other infidels vsed to doe bodily reuerence at all tymes when they heard the name of Iesus but especially when the Gospell was read which conteyned that glad tydings of saluation which is procured vnto man by Christ Iesus wherevpon also he is called Iesus that is a Sauior Neyther can it be agaynst christianitie to shewe bodily reuerence when he is named by whom not onely all the spirituall enimies of mankinde are subdued but also the faythfull be made partakers of the kingdome of heauen Wherefore as I binde no man of necessitie to this reuerence at the name of Iesus so do I not iudge any man that hauing knowledge vseth the same for I will not holster and defende superstitious ignorance It must néedes be malicious dealing to charge the common order and booke of publike prayer with particular faults of priuate men and places If you knowe where these abuses be and will complaine of them either to the Archbishop or Bishop I dare say they will reforme them There is better reason why one Pastor may haue two benefices than one Curate serue in two cures for ministring of the Sacraments and reading publike prayers dayly doth require more bodily attendance than the preaching of the worde A man may better in one day preach at two Churches than he can at them both minister the Sacraments and celebrate publike prayers That Pastor that hath two benefices and two good Curates at them both may with much more facilitie do his dutie both towardes his Churches particularly and the whole Church generally Of Cathedrall Churches c. Tract 22. Admonition As for Organs and curi ns singing though they be proper to popish dennes I meane to Cathedrall Churches yet some others also must haue them The Queenes Chappell and these Churches must be paterns and presidents to the people of all superstitions Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 206. Sect. 1. Here it pleaseth you to call Cathedrall Churches Popish dennes As hap is your wordes are no slaunder But this bragge I will make of Cathedrall Churches and such as be nowe in them I will offer vnto you a dozen Cathedrall Churches in England which I my selfe do know the worst whereof in learning shall encounter with al Papistes Puritanes Anabaptists and what other sectes soeuer in Englande for the defense of religion now professed eyther by worde or wryting Without arrogancie be it spoken I thinke there was neuer time wherein these Churches were better furnished with wise learned and godly men than they be at this day I speake not this boastingly but to Gods glorie the honour of the Prince the comfort of the godly and the shame of slaunderous Papistes and disdainfull Schismatikes Your slaunderous speech of the Queenes Maiesties Chappell which you also say to be a patterne and president to the people of all superstitions is rather seuerely to be punished than with words to be confuted T. C. Page 163. tovvardes the ende Pag 164. Sect. 1. As for the speach of the cathedrall Churches either it is nothing or else it is false For if he say that there is eyther in all those cathedrall Churches one or in euerie of those 12. churches one which is able to confute Papists c. What great thing sayth he which sayth no more of all these Churches than is to be founde in one poore house of the vniuersitie whose rentes are scarce 300. pounde by yeare Yea what hath he sayde of them which was not to be founde in them euen in Queene Maries tyme when there was yet some one almost in euery Church which for feare dissembling was able notwithstanding to confute the Papists Anabaptists Puritanes And if he meane that in those twelue houses the worst of the Prebendaries are able to defende the truth agaynst all Papists c. all men do knowe the vntruth of it so that although this sentence be very doubtfully put forth yet howe so euer it be taken it is as M. Doctor hath rightly termed it a meere bragge And yet I doubt not and a well assured that there be diuerse godly learned men which haue liuings in those places but for all that they ceasse not therefore to be dennes of loyterers and idle persons whilst there are nourished there some which serue for no profitable vse in the Church theyr offices being such as bring no commoditie but rather hurt of which number certame are which the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the colour of their Prebendes there absent themselues from them and that which they spoyle and rauen in other places there they spend and make good cheere with and therfore not without good cause called dennes Finally there being nothing there which might not be much better applyed and to the greater commoditie of the Church whilst they might be turned into Colledges where yong men might be brought vp in good learning and made fit for the serutce of the Church and common wealth the vniuersities being not able to receyue that number of schollers wherwith there neede may be supplyed And where M. D. sayth that that which is spoken of the Queenes maiesties chappell is worthie rather to be punished than confuted if so be that these be abuses the example of them in hir matesties
deede to be iudged not to iudge he came to worke the worke of our redemption not to decide controuersies touching landes and possessions But will you therfore take from Christian men authoritie to iudge for this exāple of Christ can no more be applied to Bishops than it may be to kings bicause the doings of Christ is a patterne for all Christians and yet Christians may iudge matters and decide controuersies amongst their brethren Looke 1. Cor. 6. The Anabaptists vse this text for one Argument of the Anabaptistes confuted of their reasons to condemne magistratie among Christians therfore a very learned and late writer in his exposition of this place writeth thus Hinc colligitur quantopere insaniant qui ex hoc loco magistratum inter Christianos damnant nam Christus non argumentatur à re ipsa tanquà m profana sit sed à vocatione sua quòd missus sit in alium finem tametsi res erat per se satis sancta pia Hereof may it be gathered hovv greatly they dote vvhich condemne magistrates amongst Christians by this place for Christe doth not reason of the thing it selfe as though it vvere profane but of his ovvne vocation bicause he vvas sent to an other ende although the thing of it selfe is holy and good T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 4. vlt. And as for the other place of Luke touching our sauiour Christes refusall to deuide the inheritaunce 12. Luke betwene the brethren it is moste aptly alleaged to this purpose For although our sauiour Christ doth not there take away from men authoritie to iudge yet he sheweth thereby sufficiently that it belongeth not vnto the ministers of the worde to entermeddle in y e iudgement of ciuil causes For our sauiour Christ framed that answere hauing respect to the boundes of his calling For as he beyng minister of the Gospell did all those things which were perteyning to his ministerie so by refusing this office of iudgement in ciuill causes he gaue to vnderstand that it did not appertayne vnto the compasse of that office which he exercised which was y e ministerie And therefore it is altogether out of season that M. Doctor here alleageth that y e Anabaptistes vse this reason to proue that Christians may not haue magistrates For howe doth this follow that bycause this place of S. Luke proueth not that we ought to haue no Christian magistrates that therfore it proueth not that the minister should be no magistrate as if there could be no ciuill magistrates onlesse ministers of the worde were And the place which he alleageth out of the learned man doth not only not make any thing for him but doth quite ouerthrow his cause For he sayth that our sauiour Christ did not refuse this as a thing in it selfe vnlawfull but bycause it did not agree with his vocation Now the vocation of our sauiour Christ was to be a minister of the Gospell therefore it doth not agree with the vocation of a minister of the gospell to iudge or to intermedle in ciuill gouernment And if M. Doctor had bene so studious of M. Caluins workes as by his often 4. Lib. Inscit 11. cap. allegation of him he would make the world beleue he might haue redde in him this sentence cited for this purpose to proue that the ministers haue not to do in ciuill thinges Io. Whitgifte Neyther do you héere replie to my Answere for I tolde you that Christ came to be iudged not to iudge in matters of lands and possessions I tolde you likewise that this example of Christ perteyneth no more to Bishops than it dothe to Kings and therefore can no fitlyer be by you applied agaynst Bishops than by the Anabaptistes agaynst Christian Magistrates To all this in effect you haue sayde nothing Your owne collection is soone answered Fyrst no man giueth to Bishops authoritie to iudge in matters of inheritance for suche controuersies are to be decided by lawe whiche hath other Iudges appoynted for it Secondly Christ spake this to declare that his kingdome was not of this worlde but of the worlde to come not earthly but heauenly not temporall but eternall and therefore he spake it touching his owne person onely and not as a rule perteyning to other Christians as the Anabaptists feyne Thirdly the authoritie in ciuill matters that is committed to ministers in Ciuill offices in our ministers tende to y e gouernment of the church this Churche is committed vnto them by the Prince for the better gouernment of the Churche and the fuller satisfying of their duetie consisting for the moste parte onely in punishing and correcting sinne And lastly it is not made a thing incident to the ministerie or as parte of that office but it is added as profitable conuenient and necessarie for the present state of the Churche and fuller accomplishing of the ministers duetie I haue tolde you in my Answere to the Admonition that this example of Christ dothe no more perteyne vnto Bishops than to other Christians whiche béeing true and vnconfuted by you then dothe it followe that the Anabaptistes maye aswell alleage it agaynst other Christians as you maye doe agaynst Bishops or Ministers The learned mans interpretation dothe well agrée with my cause for Christ refused it bicause he came to be iudged and to suffer death for the redemption of the world which is the vocation that this learned man speaketh of and is onely proper to Christ. I denie not but that M. Caluine may apply this texte to that purpose but M. Caluine dothe expounde him selfe writing vpon this same place when he saythe that euery man must respect his owne vocation quid illi sit aptum and what is meete for it Nowe the ciuill authoritie that Ecclesiasticall persons haue in this Churche is meete for theer vocation And therefore M. Caluine speaketh nothing agaynst it In the same booke chapter he alleageth these words of Bernarde ▪ whiche he writeth to Pope Eugenius of this matter Ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra c. VVherefore your power is in offences not in possessions And this conclusion he bringeth in vpon the wordes of S. Luke chapter 12. I would not as I sayde before haue Bishops Iudges in controuersies of enheritance Wherein the Bishops authoritie consisteth I doe not affirme that they may in the right of their ministerie chalenge any ciuill authoritie as the Bishop of Rome dothe But forasmuche as the authoritie is in Criminibus in offences as Bernarde sayth therfore if it please the Prince to giue it them they may lawfully execute so muche authoritie ciuill as shall further and helpe them in suppressing sinne And this is agaynst nothing that M. Caluine hathe sayde For M. Caluine and other learned wryters of this age doe vse this place of S. Luke and suche like agaynst the vsurpation of Romishe Bishops chalenging suche authoritie in ciuill matters as due vnto them Iure diuino and so
abused both by them and you The Apostle vseth the same maner of spéeche speaking of the obedience of wiues towards their husbands Vxores subditae estote proprijs viris sicuti decet in Domino VViues be subiect vnto your owne Col. 3. husbands as it behoueth you in the Lord. And yet you will not say that the gouernment of the husbande ouer his wife is onely spirituall And therefore howsoeuer you ally out the matter with saying that S. Paule heere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ascribeth this vnto the ecclesiasticall gouernours yet it will not serue your turne for he ascribeth it also to those that be ciuill The ecclesiasticall gouernours haue all their whole care set vpon that onely whych perteyneth to the lyfe to come True it is and to the same ende ten eth the ciuill gouernment which they doe exercise as I haue tolde you before Chap. 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 230. Sect. 4. In the. 1. Tim. 5. verse 2. he willeth Timothie to exhorte the elder vvomen as mothers the yonger as sisters whervpon you conclude thus Elder women must be exhorted as mothers the yonger as systers with al purenesse Ergo the gouernmēt of y e church must be spirituall T. C. Pag. 167. Lin. 5. And to this ende also is alleaged by the Admonition the place of Tim. wherein the Apostle teacheth 1. Tim. 5. part of the ecclesiasticall discipline whych the minister may vse to consist in reprehensions and rebukes which must be tempered according as the estate and age of euery one doth require Their meaning is not as M. Doctor doth vntruely surmise to shut out the ciuil Magistrate or to debarre him of punishing the wicked but that it apperteyneth not vnto the ministers to deale that wayes whose correction of faults lyeth partly in reprehensions and admonitions which he speaketh of there partly in excommunication whereof is spoken before Io. Whitgifte But how ap ly this place is alleaged to this end euery child may vnderstand For what a collection call you this S. Paule willeth Tim to exhorte the elder women as mothers the yonger as sisters therfore the regiment of the Church is only spiritual an ecclesiasticall person may not intermeddle with any kind of ciuil affayres one Christian man must exhort an other reproue an other also as occasion requireth therefore he may not execute any ciuil office the reason is al one Your defense of this place is very slender and you might with as muche credite to them haue passed it ouer as you haue done diuers other Chap. 1. the. 10. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 230. Sect. 2. In the place to the Ephes. the Apostle sayth that God hathe appoynted Christ to be the head of the Churche vvhiche is his body euen the fulnesse of him that filleth all in all things Here we learne that Christ Spirituall go uernment taketh not away ciuill Magistracie is the head of the Churche but howe proues this that the gouernment of the Churche is onely spirituall Will you heereby take away ciuill Magistrates and other gouernoures that God hathe placed in his Churche It is subtilly done of you to quote the places onely and not to apply them nor to conclude of them for surely if you had layde downe the words and applyed them to your purpose not wyse and learned onely but very children woulde haue laughed you to scorne T. C. Pag. 167. Lin. 12. Further touching the place of the Ephes. for so muche as our sauiour Christ as he is head of his Church is the spirituall gouernour thereof it is meete that their gouernment which are appoynted vnderneath him as he is head should be likewise spirituall as his is For as for the cyuil 1. Cor. 11. Magistrate although he be appoynted of Chryst as he is God in whyche respecte there is none aboue Christ yet he is not appoynted of hym in respect that he is head of the Churche in regarde whereof God is aboue Christ and as the Apostle sayth the head of him Io. Whitgifte Christ is the head of the Churche and spiritually gouerneth the same in the conscience The gouernment of the Church is not only spiritual but bicause it hath also an outwarde and visible forme therefore it requireth an outwarde and visible gouernment whiche Christ dothe execute aswell by the ciuill Magistrate as he dothe by the ecclesiasticall minister and therefore the gouernment of the Churche in the respect of the externall and visible forme of it is not onely spirituall Christ gouerneth by him selfe spiritually onely and by his ministers bothe spiritually and externally and therefore your reason is nothing But why doe you not answere in this place to that which I charge them with touching the ciuill T. C. content to passe y the ab dging of ciuill autho Magistrate In the former place where I spake no suche thing you sayde that I vntruely surmised that they shut out the ciuill Magistrate from punishing the wycked But héere when I charge them that by their application of this place they take away ciuill Magistrates and other gouernours that God hath placed in his Churche you answere not one worde In déede bothe you and they by your false interpretations of this and such lyke places doe altogither seclude the ciuill Magistrate from any gouernment of the Churche and in effect say with the Papistes that he dothe gouerne as he is man and not as he is a Christian and that he gouerneth men in that they be men and not in that they be Christian men which may well be spoken of the Turke hauing Christians subiect vnder him but it is wickednesse to thinke it of a Christian Magistrate and it dothe not muche differ from the opinion of the Anabaptistes Chap. 1. the. 11. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 230. Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 231. Sect. 1. In the. 10. Hebr. verse 30. it is thus written For vve knovve hym that hath sayde vengeance belongeth vnto me I vvill recompence sayth the Lorde And agayne The Lorde shall iudge his people Uengeance belongeth to God and he shall iudge his people Ergo the gouernment of the Church must be spirituall Fonde arguments and to no purpose I am ashamed of these reasons and so will you be likewise if you be not past shame If you meane that the gouernment of the Church is spirituall bicause God by his spirite gyftes and ministerie of hys worde dothe gouerne it you saye truely although these places be vnaptly alleaged but if you meane that therefore there neede no ciuill Magistrates no ciuill and politike lawes no externall discipline no outwarde ceremonies and orders you are greatly deceyued and ioyne with the Anabaptistes whose errour in that poynt is sufficiently by dyuers learned men confuted And therefore I will not as yet intermeddle therewith vntill I vnderstande further of your meaning Io. Whitgifte This is lefte vnanswered ¶ The reasons which T. C. vseth
their ministerie and those thyngs whych the worde of God doth necessarily put vpon them least the strength of theyr mynde and of theyr body beeyng distracted vnto many things they shoulde be the lesse able to accomplishe their ministerie vnto the full Which may also partly appeare by that whych I haue alleaged out of Cyprian whyche wyll not permit them so much as to be executors of a Testament And in the. 80. Canon of those which are ascribed vnto the Apostles it is enioyned that they should not entangle themselues with worldly offices but attende vpon their ecclesiasticall affayres Io. Whitgifte If you compare the state of the Churche before the time of Christian Kings with the state of it vnder Christian Kings you make an vnequall comparison For howe coulde ecclesiasticall persons enioy any ciuill function when there was no ciuil Magistrate christian to commit the same vnto them How could by this meanes the gouernment of the Church be thought to be helped by the Ciuill Magistrate when as it had no greater enimies than ciuill Magistrates who sought by all meanes to suppresse and destroy it but nowe to your reasons To yprians authoritie I haue answered before The Canons of the Apostles haue nowe béene alleaged by you at the least 4. or 5. times and yet is not their credite and authoritie so firme But that Canon meaneth onely suche worldely causes as be impedimentes to their vocation and I haue tolde you often that ciuill functions be necessarie helpes to the dooing and ful accomplishing of their ecclesiasticall office I haue expressed in my Answere to the Admonition what worldly affayres a minister of the word may not intangle him selfe with Chap. seconde the. 8. diuision T. C. Pag. 168. Sect. vlt. Further in the * councell of Calcedon it was decreed that none of the clearkes cleargie Tom. 1. can 3. as it termeth them should receyue any charge of those which are vnder age vnlesse they were such as the lawes dyd necessarily cast vpon him which it calleth inexcusable charges meaning by all likelihoode the wardship of his brothers children or some such thing Where is also declared the cause of that decree to haue bin for that there were certayne ministers which were Stewards to noble men And 〈◊〉 the. 7. canon of the same councell it is decreed that none of the cleargy shoulde eyther goe to warfare as souldiours or captaynes or should receyue any secular honors and if they dyd they should be excommunicated or accursed Io. Whitgifte The words of the thirde Canon be these Relation is made vnto this holy Synode Con. Calced can 3. that certayn amongst the cleargie for filthie lucers sake hyer other mens possessions take vpon them the causes of secular businesse and through slouthfulnesse separate themselues frō diuine functions and runne to the houses of secular persons for couetousnesse take vpon thē the gouernment of their substance therfore this holy vniuersall great Synode hath decreed that none of these hereafter that is Bishop or Clearke or Monke shall hyer possessions or intermeddle with secular possessions except those that by lawe are dryuen to take the tuition and care of suche as be vnder age or those to whome the Bishop of the Citie hathe committed the gouernment of ecclesiasticall things and of Orphanes and widowes which are without succour or of such persons which neede the helpe of the Church for the feare of God c. This Canon conteyneth nothing contrarie to my assertion the words of the Canon be playne I shall not néede to vse any exposition of it Onely I would haue the Reader marke the weight of your argument which is this The Councell of Chalcedon sayeth that Clerkes may not for filthy lucres sake hyre other mennes possessions or take vpon them for couetousnesse sake the gouernment of other mennes possessions c. therefore there may be no ciuill office committed vnto them I will aske no better cōmentaries to the Canon of the Apostles before alledged or any other suche like than this very Canon of the Councell of Chalcedon To what purpose do you alledge the. 7. Canon of that Councell did you euer heare me say that I would haue a minister to be a Souldier or a captaine in warre or enioy any such secular honor or offices wherefore you lacke probation when you are constrayned to vse this ¶ The reasons vsed in the Answere iustified Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Lin. 4. Sect. 1. 2. Now I come to M. Doctors arguments which he bringeth to establish this disorder And first he sayth ministers of the worde may not occupie themselues in worldly businesse as to be marchants husbandmen craftes men and such like but they may exercise ciuil offices Wher first of all I perceyue M. Doctor is of this mynde that the order of God is not to be broken for small gayne or when a man must take great toyle of the bodie to breake it but if it may be broken with getting of honor and doing of those things which may be done without toyle and with great commendation then it is lawfull to breake it In deede so the Poet but in the person of an vniust and ambitious man sayde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is If a man muste do vniustiy he must do it to beare rule Secondarily I do see that M. Doctor will not be shackled and hindred from his ministerie by a payre of yron fetters but if he can get a payre of golden fetters he is contented to be hampered and entangled from doing the office of ministerie committed vnto him For vnlesse these should be the causes which should moue him to take the one and refuse the other verily I see none Io. Whitgifte This is to deride not to answere M Bucer writing vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. Bucer rehearsing such worldly businesse as withdrawe the minister from his function and therefore be not meete for him to exercise sayth thus Such businesse as warfare market affayres marchandise hucksters craft the ouersight of Innes Tauerns and bathes to exercise vnliberall craftes as to digge mettals and stones to burne lyme to carie sande to be schauengers and such like You haue not yet proued that Gods order is broken if the ciuill offices which I speake of be committed to Ecclesiasticall persons Your iesting tauntes I leaue to those that professe that cunning Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 2. For whereas he sayth it is a helpe and maynteyneth religion in deede that is the reason of the Lib. 4. cap. 11. Papistes which M. Caluin confuteth in his institution And although it be good and necessary to punish vice and iniquitie by corporall punishmentes and by ciuill corrections yet it doth no more followe that that should be done by the ministers than it followeth that for that preachyng and ministring the Sacramentes and excommunication are good and necessarie therfore the same is fitte to be executed
by the ciuill magistrate I graunt the ministers haue also to punish vice for as the ciuill magistrates punishe lighter faultes with some penaltie of monie or losse of member so the church and the minister especially with the church hath to punishe faultes by reprehensions and rebukes And as the ciuill magistrate punisheth greater faultes by death so the minister with other which haue interest hath with y e sworde of excommunication power to kill those which be rebellious and to cut them from the churche as the other doth from the common wealth And if it be a helpe to the ministers office that he shoulde meddle with ciuill punishments why should it not be a help vnto the Magistrates office that he should excommunicate and do other thinges perteyning to the Ecclesiasticall discipline Io. Whitgifte In what woordes doth M. Caluine confute it or by what reason you cut of the matter very shorte in that booke and chapt of his Instit. which you haue quoted in the margent there is no such reason either alleaged or confuted Only in the. 9. Section he speaketh agaynst the temporall dominion of the Popish Bishops whiche deriue their excessiue power not from the ciuill Magistrate but fcō the Pope cloking it with this pretence that it is an ornament and beutie to the kingdome of Christ which is far from any thing alleaged by me why it is conuenient that our Bishops haue ciuill authoritie committed vnto them I would gladly heare a reason either of the Scripture or any other authenticall It is not so lawfull for the Prince to preach c. as for a minister to vse corporall punishment wryter why it should be as lawfull for a ciuill Magistrate to preache minister the Sacraments and excōmunicate as for the Ecclesiasticall minister to vse corporall punishment it was lawfull for Samuell to kill Agag being the office of Saule but it was not lawfull for Saule to offer vp sacrifices that being the office of Samuell The office and function of a mynister is not in his owne power to commit to whom he list but the office of the ciuill Magistrate may be cōmitted to whom soeuer it shal 1. Sam. 15. please him best to like of and to thinke most fitte for gouernment 1. Sam. 3. True it is that excōmunication is an Ecclesiastical censure which the mynister Excommunication not the only punishment vsed in the Church Gualter may exercise if the state of the Church will beare it for reprehension is a discipline lawfull for euery Christian to vse but it is not the onely censure for the ciuill magistrate may appoynt other as shall be to the state of the Church moste conuenient You know what M. Gualter sayeth 1. Cor. 5. As the Romaine Bishops vpon this place and such like haue grounded their excommunication which is the most effectuall instrument of their tyrannie whereby they haue cruelly vexed not onely priuate men but also Kinges and Emperours and haue bene the causes of ciuill warres and sedition euen so the Anabaptists whilest they perswade themselues that there can be no discipline without excōmunication they trouble the churches euery where and make thēselues laughing stockes to all the world c. Let euery church follovve that kinde of discipline vvhich is most meete for the countrie vvherein they liue and vvhich may be moste commodious in respect of time and place and let no man here rashly prescribe vnto an other or seeke to binde all men to one and the same forme Of old time there hath bene other kinde of punishments than either reprehensiōs or excōmunication as it may appeare euen in that Canon attributed to the Apostles which you haue before rehearsed where the punishment appoynted is depriuation as it is also in the most of the other Canons and in diuerse other councels You say that if it be a helpe to the ministers office that he should meddle with the ciuill punishmēts why should it not be a helpe to the magistrates office that he should excommunicate c. The answere is soone made The Magistrate may do that by corporall punishment that the minister can not do by Ecclesiasticall discipline neither is there any man so desperate whom the magistrate by his authoritie may not brydle but such is y e time now that fewe regarde the greatest censures of the Church Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 2. And whereas M. Doctor sayeth they may not be husband men craftes men c. and yet may haue ciuill offices I thinke far otherwise that although neyther be lawfull yet the one were more tollerable than the other For seing after the ministerie of the worde there is no calling vnder the sunne weightier which requireth greater exercise of the minde than the office-of the magistrate it is agaynst all reason to lay this heauie burthen vpon a man that is already loden and hath as much as he is able to beare It were more equall if they will needes adde vnto the weight of this burthen to laye some lighter charge of exercising a handy crafte than to breake his backe with the charge of a ciuill Magistrate Io. Whitgifte These wdrldly affayres of husbandrie occupations c. must néedes withdrawe him from his booke so make him more vnapt to do his dutie and they be not at all incident to his office nor méete for his calling but the Ciuill offices that I speake of be both méete for his calling perteyning to discipline and helpes to his office function as I haue sayde wherefore they be so farre from breaking his backe that they make the rest of his burthen a great deale the easier Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 3. And whereas in the pollicie of M. Doctor it seemeth a furtherance to the Gospell to ioyne these togither which was also the pollicie of the Idolaters as I haue before declared in the wisedome of God it hath seemed farre otherwise which I doubt not did therfore separate the ministerie from this pompe which is commendable in the ciuill magistrate least the efficacie and power of the simplicitie of the worde of God and of the ministerie should be obscured whilest men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto the gospell due vnto the worde and to the spirite of God to these glorious shewes And least whilest the Minister haue the word in one hande and the swordem the other men should not be able to iudge so well in their consciences ▪ of the mightie operation of the worde of God in them For they might doubte with themselues whether these are and outwarde shewe of the minister caried some stroke with them in beleuing the worde Io. Whitgifte One of your reasons conteyned in this place in effect is this If ministers shoulde enioy ciuill functions men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto these shewes but that ought they not to do therefore c. I denie your Maior as a fonde and vaine imagination
the selfe same had not the correction of the booke which were the first penners of it and therefore how they will like of this correction it may be doubted But although the wordes in the texte be altered yet the quotations in the margent remayne still Belike they are to be applied as it pleaseth the platformers All this is added in the seuenth reason But some will say that the baptisme of Fol. 4. women is not cōmaunded by law if it be not why do you suffer it wherfore are the childrē so baptized accordingly cōmon experience teacheth that it is vsed almost in all places fewe speake against it this I am sure of that when it was put in the booke that was the meaning of the most part that were thē present and so it was to be vnderstāded as cōmon practise without cōtrolement doth plainely declare All these be but cōiectures Diuers things be suffered in many places vsed without cōtrolment which notwithstanding by no lawe be cōmaunded What the meaning was of those that penned the booke I know not neither as I thinke do you And surely for cōmon practise I can say litle but for mine own experiēce this I dare affirme that I haue not knowne one childe so baptised in places where I haue had to do no not since the beginning of the Q. Maiesties reigne I speake not of the thing it self but only of your coniectures I Baptizing by women not collected out of the booke thinke if the circūstances of the booke be well considered it will appeare that the meaning is that priuate baptisme is rather to be ministred by some minister which in y e time of necessity may soonest be come by thā by any womā But in this poynt I submit my iudgemēt to such as better know the meaning of y e bok being pēners therof thā I do In the same leafe ninth reason speaking of certeyne things vsed about mariage they adde these words VVith diuers other heathenishe toyes in sundry coūtries Toyes about mariage as carying of wheat sheafs on their heads casting of corne with a nūber of such like wherby they make rather a maygame of mariage thā a holy institutiō of God These be but toyes in deede vsed I know not where not conteyned in any part of the boke of cōmon prayers therfore without my cōpasse of defense They lacke matter whē they stuffe theyr booke with such vaine friuolous trifles In the. 10. reason to these wordes as for confirmation is added which the Fol. 5. Papists and our men say was in times past Apostolicall grounding their opinion perhaps vpon some dreame of Hierome And in the same place these wordes be left out VVe speake not of other toyes vsed in it how far it differeth is degenerated from the first institution they thēselues that are learned can witnesse And in the place hereof this is inserted as though baptisme were not already perfect but needed cōfirmation or as though the Bishop could giue the holy Ghost You your selfe in effect haue confessed in your first edition that confirmation of children is very auncient that it hath bene wel instituted for there you say that now it differeth is degenerate Confirmation of children allowed at the last frō the first institution But vpon better aduisemēt you haue left out these wordes in your second Edition as you haue also left out these with other toyes vsed in it wherby you confesse contrary to your former sentence that the confirmation of Children now vsed is without any toyes Howsosoeuer it pleaseth you to accompt Hieromes iudgemēt touching the antiquitie of confirmation a dreame yet his dreame may be of as much credite with wise men as your bare deniall of the same The wordes The ende of confirmation that you haue added in the second place might wel haue bene spared for you know that confirmation now vsed in this Churche is not to make baptisme perfect but partly to trie how the godfathers Godmothers haue performed y t which was enioyned thē whē the children were baptised partly that the childrē thēselues now being at the yeares of discretiō hauing learned what their Godfathers Godmothers promised for thē in baptisme may with their owne mouth with their owne consent openly before the church ratifie confirme the same also promise that by the grace of God they will euermore endeuour themselues faithfully to obserue keepe such things as they by their own mouth confessiō haue assented vnto And this reason is alledged among other euē in the booke of cōmon prayers And that it is not to make baptisme perfect y e boke of cōmon prayers it self declareth in these words And that no mā shal think any detrimēt shal come to Childrē by deferring of their cōfirmatiō he shal know for truth that it is certaine by Gods word that childrē being baptised haue all things necessary for their saluatiō be vndoubtedly saued You adde as though the Bishop could giue the holy Ghost the Bishop may vse the ceremonie vsed by the Apostles that is imposition of handes may safely say this godly prayer conteyned in the booke Defend O Lorde this childe with the heauenly grace that he may continue thine for euer and dayly encrease in thy holy spirit more and more vntill he come vnto thy euerlasting kingdome Amē And other such godly prayers there cōteiued Of any other kind of giuing y e holy ghost there is no mētion in that boke therfore these additions might very well haue bene leftout of your libel To the end of the eleuenth reason these wordes be added and open our eyes that we may see what that good and acceptable will of God is and be more earnest to prouoke his glory to the which I onely answere Amen In the ende of the. 12. there is something left out which they haue placed in the. 13. reason but it is answered before There is nothing added or altered worth the noting onely in the Fol. 6. fiftenth reason where they sayd before that we honored Bishops by the titles of kings nowe they haue recanted that and condemned themselues of an vntruth for they haue left out that title Fol. 7. In the seuenth leaf and 19. reason these words be left out banners and belles which argueth that they were before vntruly sayd to be vsed in gang weeke But to lye is a small matter with these men For Lordes grace of Yorke there is the Archbishop of Yorke The cause of Fol. 8. this alteration I know not When you say that you striue for true Religiō gouernment of the Church c. Fol. 9. You say that you do that which is to be wished you should do But your doings tēde to y e defacing of true Religion ouerthrow of the right gouernment of the Church although you be not the head of Antichrist yet are you his
tayle for the tayle of the beast as learned Tayle of Antichrist what it is mē say be false Prophets Hypocrites such as stirre vp Schismes factions among true Christians and by pretence of zeale by cloaked and coloured meanes seeke to draw into the church Antichrist backward as Cacus did the oxen into his denne Io. Whitgifte To these things y e Replier hath giuen his consent as it should séeme by his silence ¶ Articles collected out of the former Admonition and vntruly sayd of the fautors of that Admonition to be falsified To the end of the second Admonition there is ioyned A reprofe of certaine Articles collected as it is thought by the Bishops for so they say out of a litle booke entituled An Admonition to the Parliament c. But as I thinke it may rather be termed a recantation or if you will a reformatiō or mitigatiō of certen articles in that first admonition rashly setdowne without learning or discretion printed 1. Fol. 3. lib. 1. pag. 2. First they hold affirme that we in England are not yet Scarce the face of a Church come to the outward face of a church agreable to Gods worde Here you finde fault that this worde scarce is left out Indeede this word scarce was written in the margent of diuers copies of the first Admonition whether it were so in all or no I know not no more do I whether any such collectiō as you pretend was made But what neede you so muche sticke in wordes when the thing is manifest for in effect they denie as much as that proposition importeth they wholy condēne the mynisterie the ceremonies the gouernment of this church They say the sacraments be full of corruptions in theyr second Admonition Fol 42. they say that the sacraments are wickedly māgled prophaned they vtterly condēne our order māner of common prayer yea in effect our doctrine also for in their secōd Admonitiō Fol. 7 they say that although some truth be taught by some preachers yet no preacher may without daūger of the lawes vtter all truth comprised in the booke of God What can be spoken more slenderly of the doctrine preached in this church A mā may truly speake as much of the Romishe churche for some truthe is taught by some Papists yea some truth is taught by some Iewe Turke When therfore you say that in this church neither the worde is truly preached nor the sacramēts sincerely ministred nor yet Ecclesiasticall discipline which thre in the first Admonition Fol. 3. is sayde to be the outwarde markes whereby a true Christian church is knowne and also condemne our mynisterie as Popish and vnlawfull with the whole gouernment of Vix ▪ signifieth somtime non our Church as you do in playne termes may it not be truely sayde that you affirme vs in England as yet not to be come to the outward face of a church agreable to Gods worde Furthermore what doth this word scarce helpe the matter doth it not importe as much it is a rule in Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that vvhich is scarce done is not done T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 3. 4. 5. As for Answere to the Articles collected out of the Admonition it is made in the Replie vnto M. Doctors booke where I haue shewed how the Admonition is misconstrued and taken otherwise than eytherit meameth or speaketh wherevnto I will referre the Reader And albeit I haue shewed how vntrue it is that the Admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England yet I can not passe by the secrete Philosophie whereby M. Doctor woulde proue that the Authors of the Admonition affirme it For sayth he by y e rule of Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that which is scarse done is not done I say this is secrete for it was neuer taught neyther in Academia nor in stoa nor Lyceo I haue redde Quod fere fit non fit that which is almost done is not done But I neuer remember any such rule as M. Doctor speaketh of And besides that in our tongue those things which are sayd to be scarce are notwithstanding oftentimes supposed to be As when a man sayth that there is scarce a man aliue c. the scripture also vseth that phrase of speach of things which are as when it sayth the iust man shall scarce be saued it doth not meane that iust men shall not be saued The rest of that I haue answered Io. Whitgifte I proue by their owne manifest woordes that they in déede affirme that we in England are not yet come to the outwarde face of a Church agreable to Gods worde all whiche proofes you omit and let passe cauilling onely at this woorde scarce which is a manifest What y ◠word vix importeth argument of a wrangler And yet is not this manner of speaking Quod vix sit non sit so straunge Philosophie as you would gladly haue it for this woorde vix eyther signifieth with violence great difficultie to do a thing or else it is referred to the time or else it signifieth non as in Ouide vix Priamus tanti that is non tanti Priamus as Donatus doth expoūd it I thinke you will not haue it to be taken in the first significatiō by the Authors of y e Admonitiō for then there is no sense in their wordes if it be taken in either of the latter significations as it must of necessitie be then the Philosophie is not secrete ▪ but open and knowne to euery yong Grammarian In our English phrase it is commonly taken for non as when we say a thing is Vix in english commonly taken for non scarce done we signifie that is not yet done Likewise when a man sayth that he is scarce well he meaneth that he is not well He hath scarce made an end of his sermon ▪ y t is he hath not made an end of his sermon It is scarce ix of y e clocke that is it is not yet ix of the clocke Euen so we are scarce come to the outward forme of a church rightly reformed c. that is we are not yet come c. Euery child y t cā speake knoweth this to be so When the scripture saith that a iust man shall scarce be saued this woorde vix is taken in y e first significatiō that is with great difficultie in this signification it is oftētimes taken in the scripture but so can it not be in their manner of speach Ansvvere to certayne Articles c. 2. They will haue the mynisters to be called allowed and placed by the people You say that this Article is falsified yet their wordes in that place of their Admonition be these Then election was made by the cōmon consent of the whole Churche And a litle after Then no mynister was placed in any congregation without the consent of the people Wherfore the collection is very true and they belike ashamed of their