comprehends a certaine number of persons of one or divers places Here it is to be observed 1. That the Church may be denominated universall or particular either absolutely or respectively in relation to another bigger or lesse so Absolutely the universall Church comprehends in its selfe all the Churches of all times of all places of all forts of Persons Angels and men of all Estates or conditions and Covenants As that in the Covenant of integrity naturall or supernaturall as of Angels and men before their Fall and that in the state of sin under the Covenant of Grace and in the state of Glory And according to this consideration the Church of the Angels is one particular Church That of Mankind another The Triumphant and Militant two others and in a word all the parts thereof may be called particular Churches Respectively the Church of Mankind is an universall Church in respect of its parts as of that before and after the Fall the Triumphant and Militant so the Church after the Fall is universall in respect of that of the Old and New Testament which be its parts and the Christian in respect of its parts in Heaven and on Earth of the Primitive and that of subsequent times that which is in all the world in respect of its parts in divers Kingdomes Provinces c. But that which is most to the purpose in this our Discourse is the Catholick Christian Church here upon earth 6. Againe the Militant Church whether she be considered according to her universality and totality or particularity in her severall parts and Assemblies in respect of her internall and externall forme is either visible or invisible The invisible Church is that which cannot be seene but only is beleeved by Faith The visible is that which we see or behold where it is to be observed 1. That the word visible is not to be taken here strictly for the object of the sight alone or the word see or behold for the act thereof but in a more full signification for that which any waies is perceptible by the eye or any externall or internall Sense or by naturall Reason such as are the confession and profession of Christian vertues the exercise of their externall Acts whereof some be apprehended by the sight and Eye as the acts of Charity some by the hearing and Eare as the confession of Faith some by feeling as the assistance and attendance upon the Sicke some by the internall Senses some by Act of Reason only and the reason of this is because the word visible must signifie all that which is denyed by invisible now invisible signifies a negation of all that can be apprehended by any Sense or Act of Reason Ergo the word visible must signifie that which can be apprehended by any Sense or Act of Reason so that it belong to the Externall Form of the Church which represents the internall Forme thereof 2. Besides that it is here to be observed that the visible Church of it self is evermore visible and conspicuous but by Accident becomes sometimes invisible latent obscure and unseene and that 1. either because of the persecution Shee suffers by her enemies when Shee hides her selfe in the Wildernesse or 2. by reason of her slitting from one place to another as when Shee went from Hierusalem to Pella or 3. because of the weaknesse of the sight of the Seer as in Eli 1 King 9. verse 4. for want of sight as to those to whom as the Gospel so the Church professing the Gospell is hid and invisible 2 Cor. 2 3 4. 3. Finally It is not to be omitted that this is not a Division of the Churchinto two Species or two integrant parts or any waies into parts really but Accidentally distinguished For a Church altogether one in the same time and place and according to the same parts may be howsoever according to divers considerations and Formes which be the grounds of divers considerations it may be Visible and Invisible as the Church of Geneva which is visible in respect of her externall forme viz. Confession of the true Christian Faith the profession thereof and other christian vertues Item in respect of her Discipline c. And the same Church in respect of her internall Forme viz. Faith Hope Charity the Spirit of Christ c which be spirituall qualities altogether invisible in the sense before declared is altogether invisible 7. The Militant Church both in her totality and partiality may be divided into two integrant parts viz. into the Over-seers that preach teach rule c. and the Flock which is over-seene And they be the two principall parts concurring to its integrity without the which it cannot be a totall or whole visible Church and therefore a Church without Oversseers is not a whole visible Church I say a whole or totall Church for without Pastors it may be a totum essentiale i.e. essentially a Church for Pastors are not absolutely necessary for the essence but for the integrity of a Church Item I say without Over-seers 1. All Over-seers for it may be that a Church may subsist without Pastors alone or Doctoss alone or Rulers or Elders alone or Deacons alone but not without all 8. The Militant visible Church whether it be conceived in its universality and totality or in its particularity in severall Congregations is either Reall or Representative The Reall Militant Church is any visible Church here upon Earth composed of all its reall Professors of the Gospel The Representative Church is an Assembly of certaine Persons or Church-Officers in an Ecclesiasticall Iudicatory chosen out of the whole Body of the Reall Church to represent it as it is such be the Sessions or Consistories the Synods Provinciall and Nationall As for the Reall visible Church some thinke that it is very probable that it is never altogether without Iustifying Faith but it is probable that where there be very small Congregations of seven or eight persons they may be all without Faith and especially where the Church is corrupt or where the Members are all vicious and dissolute Their conjecture will hold more probable in great Congregations in Provinciall and Nationall Churches But in a Representative Church composed of very few Church-Officers it is very probable that sometimes they may all be without Faith howsoever they represent a Church of Reall Beleevers for to represent Reall Beleevers it is not absolutely necessary that they that are to represent them be Beleevers or have the same essentiall and internall Forme with those whom they represent but that they have the externall confession and profession of their Faith whereby they represent them nor represent they their Faith but their profession of faith So the Image of Caesar represents really Caesar without any humane nature such as is in Caesar and so may men without Faith represent them that have Faith By the word Church we must understand the Militant Christian particular and reall Church consisting of one Congregation These
yet promiseth an Answer M.S. his first Answer is that the Five Ministers ayme at no separation but as their Brethren the Scots did from Prelaticall coaction A.S. If it be only from Prelaticall coaction wherefore separate they themselves from their Brethren the Scots their Sacramentall Communion and the Scots from theirs if they separate not themselves from us wherefore are they suitors for a Toleration or approbation of their Religion since ours is already tolerated and approved as appeareth in the French Italian and Spanish Churches in this Kingdome Neither are you compelled to be Actors in any thing against your Consciences as your Brethren were by Bishops M.S. He saith the Church from which the five Ministers would separate testifies a great desire to reforme Defects yet saith he those Defects are but pretended A.S. Our meaning is to reforme Defects if any there be such as we acknowledge to be in manners as amongst you also or in the administration of Discipline as may be amongst us all But as for any Defects in the principall parts of our Ecclesiasticall Discipline we see none as yet that we travell not to reforme but believe such as hee objects us in them to be rather pretended then Reall Neither can we or shall we judge them to be any other thing but pretended till he make it appeare that they are Reall Will He that we beleeve them to be Reall because that he only sayes so but it is not the first untruth has falne from his pen. M.S. He would have the Five Ministers quit the Assembly A.S. This M.S. supposes that this last Proposition crosseth my Supposition But they may stay in the Church to reforme Abuses if there be any really as it is pretended by the Independents and live out of the Assembly as many others who are no wayes their Inferiours Neither said I that I wished them to be out of the Assembly only I propounded a question whether in consequence of the publishing of their Apologie they should not resolve themselves to quit the Assembly Now courtcous and conscientious Reader be thou judge I pray thee whether this man hath answered any of my Questions yea or not which are all the main points here to be debated Quest I. Whether it had not been honester and fairer dealing to have added the Author and Licencer's Name to M.S. his Booke then to have omitted them I Affirme it 1. because it testifieth a greater sincerity especially in these Times 2. Because it makes it appear more probably to the world that it is not a Libel 3. And that it conteineth nothing against the Law 4. Because the Name of the Author giveth authority to the Book if he be either learned or honest and the omission thereof may cut off the Authority of it and bring discredit unto it especially when the Law for this effect ordaineth it to be added 5. Because when it is suppressed and the Book a Libell it giveth too much adoe to the Magistrate to find out the Author to censure and punish him condignly according to his demerits 6. Because the Holy Writers did so and if their Names be omitted in some Books we know not whether it was with their consent or whether they did not put to their names howbeit not in quality of Canonicall Scripture or peradventure it was because they were not the Authors but as it were Gods Secretaries or Scribes for the Holy Ghost dictated them what they had to write 7. Because it hindreth men from being deceived in their moneys for sundry times men because of specious Titles put before Books buy them and afterward find nothing worth their money 8. The adding of the name of the Author and of the Licencer with the Licence will hinder the common people to be deceived in reading of hereticall and unsound in stead of Orthodox and sound Books So that this being confidered this Author should have done better that he had added his name and the Licence to his Book Quest II. Whether Mr. Cranford might not justly Licence A.S. his Consid and Answer to the Libell c. I Susteine the first part of the Question and deny the second As for the first it is evident 1. Because it is conformed to Gods word as we shall see hereafter 2. Because that Answer is nothing else but an Apologie for the Discipline of the Reformed Churches 3. Because it containeth nothing contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England or any other true Reformed Churches only it hath some new Sectaries for Enemies 4. Because the Church of England evermore entertained Union with the Reformed Churches that were ruled by that Discipline and they refused not one another to the Communion of the Sacraments 5. Because that a Bishop and the rest of the Commissioners from England at the Synod of Dordrecht approved that Discipline in the name of the Church of England 6. Because in England it selfe it hath been evermore approved by the King and Parliament who granted the Exercise thereof unto the French Dutch Italian and Spanish Churches in this very City of London and sundry other parts of this Kingdome 7. At this present Episcopall Government being put down it standeth by Law approved both by State and Church as conforme unto Gods word 8. The Kings Majesty likewise by consent of Parliament Licenced it in Scotland The second part of the Question may be proved by the contrary Arguments 1. Because it maintaineth a Discipline that is not conforme to Gods word which hath not one word of particular Churches Independent one from another of particular Church-Covenants distinct from that of Grace of not Baptizing Christians Children of not admission of Faithfull men and women who are without Scandall unto the Lords Table c. 2. Because the Discipline it maintaineth is repugnant to all other Disciplines of all other reformed yea of all Christian Churches 3. It containeth many things contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England as they confesse themselves 4. Because the Church of England never entertained any Union or Communion with any Church ruled by that Discipline 5. No Commissioners from England ever approved it 6. It hath never been received in England by King or Parliament 7. It hath never been put up here nor standeth here Legally as the other And therefore the first Legally might have been Licenced and the other could not be Licenced QUEST 3. Whether any man may not state and determine Questions agitated in Synods before the Synods Determination M. S. BLames me mightily for stating some Questions now in agitation in the Synod To the contrary I conceive that herein I have done nothing amisse But for the better stating and determining of this Question we must observe 1. That there are two sorts of Questions some that are already determined in Gods Word and his Church also Others that are not 2. That there are some Determinations by publick Authority as Lawes Statutes Ecclesiasticall Canons c. and others particular proceeding
private writings are more effectuall and sufficient to perswade the world of their innocent then the Declaration of the Parliament A.S. For me I believe and take it for certain that the publike Declaration of Parliament is more authentique then the particular writings of them that are accused yea the very Election and Admission to the Synod by the Parliament suffice to justifie the Members from any publike accusation whatsoever in matter of Doctrine and Discipline For sure so Wise and Religious a Parliament would never admit into a Synod called together for the Reformation of Religion any Heretique or Schismatique stained and deformed with Errour Notwithstanding M.S. brings Reasons for himselfe 1. For that the Parliament being indulgent chose Episcopall men To which I answer That the Bishops at that time were Morally Orthodox being not then accused or condemned by any publike Authority As to that he addes that there are some Members of the Synod ejected out of the Assembly and cast into prison I answer That this was for Delinquencies of theirs that happened after their Election But for that the Independents were not so handled they were held as Innocent men 2. M.S. sayes that two worthy Parliament men of a County may not know at first all the Faults in every Towne c. A.S. To this I answer that no more is there any necessity that they should know every particular man in a County But it suffices that they know two Ministers that are Religious and of good report and it should be very strange if they should not know such a number But besides this I shall answer more fully in a particular Question 5. Consideration whether this your Apol. Narration wherein ye blame all Protestant Churches as not having the power of godlinesse and the Profession thereof with difference from all carnall and formall Christians advanced and held forth amongst them as amongst you be seasonable when the Church of God in this Kingdome stands in need of their Brotherly Assistance and particularly of that of the Scots against whom it is commonly thought to be particularly intended who at this very time so unseasonable according to their duty hazard their lives and estates for Gods Church all this Kingdome and you also Here note that M.S. answereth not to this principall Question or interrogative Preposition viz. if this Apologeticall Narration be seasonable when the Church of God in this Kingdome stands in need of the Brotherly assistance of Protestant Churches but only biteth at the Syncategorema or adjacent terme thereof viz. not having the power of godlinesse so that his silence seemeth cleerly to grant the principall Question which we willingly accept of As for the Syncategorema it cannot receive the sense that hee puts upon it for the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers speak here of themselves as contra-distinguished or opposed to all other Reformed Churches both abroad and within this Island as appeareth by the beginning of the 2. Sect. p. 4. where they say Wee were not engaged by education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches And afterwards we could not but suppose that they could not see into all things about Worship and Government their intentions being most spent as also of our Reformers in England upon the Reformation in Doctrine And afterward And we had with many others observed that although the exercise of that Government had been accompanied with more peace yet the practicall part the power of godlinesse and the profession thereof with difference from carnall and formall Christians had not been advanced and held forth among them as in this our own Island as themselves have generally acknowledged Here they oppose themselves and those of their own profession to all other Reformed Churches whatsoever yea to the first Reformers here in this Island if England whereof they speak be in this Island It is likewise false The words of the Apologie are 1. That they and many others had but observed touching the non-advance of the power of godlinesse c. They are verbatim as I have set them down Neither cited I those words all and among you as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers words since I put them in a different Character from theirs and yet the sense is most true as I have proved Neither said I that they say that other Churches had no power of godliness Neither by this phrase This our Island understand you or can they understand any Reformed Churches different in Government from themselves as this M.S. will perswade us unlesse he hold our Reformers of England to be out of this Island since they oppose themselves to all other Reformers and Reformed Churches both within and without this Island So if this speech be intended against all other Reformed Churches except their own it must be intended against that of Scotland unless ye deny good Sir that of Scotland to be a Reformed Church neither serveth it you a pin that they call them deare Brethren for that must either be by dissimulation or they conceive that men may be their deare Brethren without the force of Piety or they contradict themselves choose ye what please you Sir So this is not my ill eye as you say but your ill eye brought home to your own doore fie upon thee give glory to God and render thy selfe to truth for feare thou render thy selfe to worse It is likewise false that I said it is intended against Scotland only I said it is commonly thought to be particularly intended against the Scots which appeareth cleerly because sundry Independent Ministers and others travell to prove it by the confession of some Scots Ministers So judge I pray Christian Reader whether this man with this his power of piety or I whom he maketh so impious a Machivilian speak more like his Machiavilian I am assured what ever be thy power of Piety thou hast no practise of Piety here No truer is it that their Proposition is but Indefinite in a Contingent matter and therefore it may be construed of some Particulars only for as the rest of the Independents save ordinarily their absurd speeches with meere Possibilities so doth M.S. which here cannot hold for the Apologists say that they were not engaged by Education or any other wayes to any other of the Reformed Churches i.e. Nullo modo and Nulli Ecclesiae Reformatae so it is altogether Universall both in regard of the Subject or Matter and of the Manner and of such Churches they speake in all that Discourse in that Paragraph and it may appeare by this their proofe viz. as they themselves generally acknowledge 6. Consid Whether as it is observed by sundry men of learning and as ye have noted your selves ye should not have done better to have set down your Opinions by way of Theses and so manifested unto us wherein ye agree or disagree with us or from us the Brownists Anabaptists and those whom ye pretend to hold the same Tenets with you in Old and New England and the Netherlands then
being presupposed I put this Conclusion All Persons in a Church or the whole Collective Body thereof have not Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction 1. They have not the power to exercise it 1. Because we read no such thing in Scripture viz. that ever God committed the Government of the Church to every idle Fellow that is a member thereof 2. Because it is contrary to the generall Ordinance of God 1 Tim. 3. that all Church-Officers be examined and tryed before their Admission And to the practise of the Old Testament in the religion of the Levites that served five yeares in their Apprenticeship 3. Because every particular member of the Church hath not the Ability to Iudge or Rule because of his ignorance and want of learning for every one in the Church cannot be learned for some there be that needs are spirituall some that be carnall some Babes in Christ some men some have need of milke some of meat 1 Cor. 3.1 2 3. 4. Because of their imprudence for some of the vulgar are somewhat precipitate and rash in the examination of matters others very slow in their judgement some in their speech and some in all which is not convenient in so grave matters in Iudging the Iudgements of the Lord. 5. Because some are vicious and culpable of the faults or crimes that are to be Iudged and condemned in others and therefore are not fit Iudges to Iudge them 6. Many in the Congregation may be friends Kinsmen or allyed with the party that is to be Iudged and so partiall wherefore some of the Congregation at the least in that case are to be excluded and by Consequence the simple Title of Christianity and profession thereof or to be a member of the Church gives not all christians this right but some other thing 7. If every one of the Church may Iudge or exercise Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction then women also whom Saint Paul commands to hold their peace in the Church 1 Cor. 14.34 and to be subject in obedience without Iurisdiction 8. All distracted men and babes should have power to Iudge and so those that are without Iudgment shold Iudge since they are members of the Church It may be answered that they admit not babes but those only that are in age and apparently regenerated Inst But then every member of the Church hath power to Iudge but men distracted are in age Ergo they have power to Iudge It may be answered that they understand that those only that are in age and have the use of reason should be admitted Inst 1. But when hath a man the use of Reason how shal they define that It is commonly defined by Philosophers and others the age of seven yeares which will make no very able Ecelesiasticall Senator here the Scripture is desicient they will admit nothing in Discipline but that which is commanded by Christ 2. What if a man in his old age begin to dote they may answer that then he is excluded because reason failes him Inst Then he must be declared not sitting which may breed division Jnst Item a man may be in age and yet little skilled in Divinity for to Iudge in matter of Heresie and be more vitious then when he was a childe And if a man be Iudged by babes children fooles and doting old men it is to be feared especially if the Iudged be rich that the Iudgement be the cause rather of division then concord so this Discipline being established all Schismes may break forth controversies and contentions They may answer that they establish these that are really or apparently in judgement of charity Saints as it may be collected from the Rom. c. 1.2 1 Cor. 1. Eph. 1. Phil. in the beginning of the chapters Reply But every particular man in every particular Congregation of the Visible Church whereof we only dispute is not nor can in speaking morally as falleth out ordinarily be a Saint 1. Because the Church is compared to a Ground whereof one part is by the way side the other stony another thorny another good To a Ground wherin growes Wheat and Tares To a Draw-Net receiving good and bad fishes Mat. 13. to a Society of wise and foolish Virgins Mat. 25. And to a House wherein there are Vessels to honour and dishonour There must be Offences or slanders saies Christ Math. 18.7 2. Howbeit they were all Saints yet should it not follow thereupon that they are all learned prudent judicious and endowed with other gifts to judge either in matters of Doctrine in Creating of Ministers and in Excommunicating of Hereticks or of Discipline which sometime requires some knowledge of the Civill law as in Cases of Matrimonie c. As for the Passages of St. Paul 1. I deny that he calls all the Members of the Church Saints Formally but the whole Body of the Church is so called or denominated because of the holinesse which is really or apparently inherent in some Members or parts thereof which denominates the whole Body as when a man is said to see because of the sight which is not inherent in all the parts of his Body but only in his Eye or wise for his wisdome which is inherent in his Soule alone 2. If it were otherwise the Apostle should have written untruths in these Texts for Rom. 16.17 18. he sayes Now I beseech you Brethren marke them which cause divisions and offences c. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly and 1 Cor. 5. It is known that the Incestuous man was not excommunicated Some of them were also Schismaticks saying that they were of Christ of Paul of Apolloes And what the Galathians were the whole Epistle testifies so that according to our Brethrens grounds there was no visible Church here and nothing could have been judged 3. It is not sanctification or holinesse of life but Politicall or Ecclesiasticall prudence that furnisheth their Abilities for 1. Sanctification is Gratia gratum faciens one sort of Grace or gift of the Spirit that renders us gracious or makes us acceptable to God But the facultie of Ruling and exercising of Jurisdiction in the Church is Gratia gratis data given gratiously only but makes us not gracious or acceptable to God as the Gift of Prophecie of Tongues Intepretation c. 2. The first is given us principally for our own benefit the other principally for other mens benefit and therfore 3. the first is for to save a man himself the second to save others when peradventure he may be damned himselfe as we see in Judas who had the grace of Prophecie whereby he saved others but damned himselfe and did preach salvation to others beleeving but damnation to himselfe unbeleeving 4. The first makes one a good Christian the other a good Citizen in the exteriour Societie of the Church alone yea 5. I may boldly say that a man may be a good Preacher or Prophet or Ruler in the Church and an ill Christian if hee preach
the truth and with edification or rule well and beleeve not which may bee done by a very wicked man Mat. 7.19 20 21 22 23. and another may be a good man but an ill Preacher Prophet or Ruler if he have sanctifying grace and have not so great abilities to preach or to rule as an other who perchance is an Atheist or if he be somewhat negligent in the exercise of his charge The Apostle sayes not that all that were in their Churches were Saints either really or appearingly but to all the Saints 4. It is probable also and some of them grant it that all the Members of the Church in those texts of Scripture are called Saints or holy 1. because of the holiness of the Covenant 2. Or holy because of the holy Confession 3. Or holy Profession 4. Or of the holy Sacraments of the holy Covenant wherunto they were partakers or finally because of their externall Vocation to salvation But all this makes them not learned prudent judicious nor furnishes them with other abilities which are needfull for the exercise of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction 5. But put the case that we should grant them all this yet can they not escape thus saying that in so doing they admit not all those that are actually received in the Church as her Children and members to the exercise of Ecclesiastical Discipline but the lesser part for there are more ignorant then learned and ill men then good in the Church or at least that have not the gifts required therunto and so in rejecting they are forced to admit some Election and establish some representative Church by the admission of some and the exclusion of others so that in this point they differ not from us in not admitting a Representative Church but in admitting a greater and more Vast Representatative Church then we and the members thereof of lesse Abilities 6. Hence it follows that men have not right to exercise Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction in qualitie of Christians professing Christ since women and others have it not but in some other consideration which we desire to know viz. whether it be not for their Abilitie and so it is not to be found in all 7. This rejection of some yea of the greater part of the Church as women children old men ignorants Vitious men and others that have not the abilitie to judge as all unholy and prophane men and admission of others that are the lesser part as sanctified men in whom only consists the Church is capable to breed Divisions in their Church if the people have power to judge For accordingly they will judge in favour of themselves to be admitted and so procure a schisme and quarrell for the taking away whereof the Government accordingly is established let them take it into consideration how hard it is for any man yea for the most part of the Church to be declared ignorant imprudent young of an unripe judgement and doting c. and to the Church and see the lesse part which pretends to be the only Church declared apt and fit to their owne exclusion and what thereupon may ensue in a Democraticall Government upon such filthy and infamous aspersions in checking the greater part as prophane it may peradventure stirre up a bellum servile more dangerous to the Church then that amongst the Romans 8. The Doctrine that destroyes Gods holy Ordinance viz. the Distinction which he has put betwixt the Rulers of the Church and them that are ruled and are to obey cannot be admitted as our Brethren will confesse But the Doctrine that gives to every Member of the Church power and administration of Jurisdiction in ruling and governing the Church is such For God hath ordained some to rule and others to obey Rom. 12.8 1 Cor. 12. Eph. 4. 1 Thess 5.12 1 Tim. 5.17 Heb. 13.17 Obey them that rule over you and submit your selves unto them Now then if some be Rulers and others to obey we cannot all be Rulers as it appeares 1. Cor. 12.28 29. And God hath set some in the Church Apostles and Governments c. Are all Apostles c Where he sayes that one gift is not given to every Member of the Church Note that he speaks here of those gifts or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that are called gratia gratis data not for our own but for other mens use Ergo this order cannot be admitted 9. No confused Discipline or government of Gods Church can be ordained by God for God is not the God of Confusion 1. Cor. 14.33 But that wherein every one of the people hath Jurisdiction or juridicall power is a confused Discipline or government Ergo It cannot be ordained by God The Major will be granted since it is Gods word The Minor is evident For I put the case that in a Church composed of some 20000 persons there be some point of Doctrine to be decided what disorder and confusion should it not breed if every one of that huge multitude yea every illiterate and idle fellow should come and propound his idle thoughts By what wisdome of man could this many-headed beast be reduced to order It may be answered that they should be wise But we reply they are not nor can that be hoped or expected in this life nay doe any beleeve it either Donatists or Anabaptists and howbeit they were all wise to salvation yet followes it not that they should all be wise for Government and Examination of all Church Officers 10. The exercise of the Discipline of the Church is morally possible for God will not that his Church be governed by an order that is impossible But this Democraticall and Plebeian exercise of Discipline is not morally possible for if there were 20. or 30. points to be judged by such a huge multitude certainly they could not easily discusse and judge every point For if every one of 20000 should give his advise and peradventure be interrupted by some and then begin his discourse againe which ordinarily falls out amongst rude people when should the Examen and discussion of the businesse be ended Grant to every one of them but halfe an houre whereas I warrant you some should take halfe a day or halfe a yeare and say little to the purpose and yet make 〈…〉 of one businesse onely employing 12. hours a day counting the Lords day also should amount to two yeares and foure moneths or thereabouts so that here there is too much delay for a businesse should scarce ever be judged or ended what should become of all other businesse What if in this one question there should fall out 20. or 30. Incidents whereof every one should take up as much time as the principall Question which quicke witted men may easily procure when then should a Question be ended It may be answered that there may be some order taken for deliberating and consulting which may hinder this as at Rome where there were 1000. Senators and in Paris where at the Parliament there are 200. Senators
written to all Yet was it not written to all in the same fashion but to every one according to his Vocation as the Kings Edicts viz. To some meerly to be obeyed by them To others that have Jurisdiction as to inferiour Judicatories to obey them and to cause them to be obeyed by others Ob. They prove it from this Chapter v. 3. because S. Paul and Barnabas being come back from Jerusalem to Antioch they gathered the multitude and delivered the Epistle written from the Apostles c. A. I answer 1. That the text sayes not that they delivered the Epistle to the Multitude but when they had gathered the Multitude they delivered the Epist Ob. But it is said v. 31. when the Multitude had read the Epistle they rejoyced A. I answer it is not said that the Multitude had read the Epistle but that the Apostles delivered it which when they had read This they may signifie some other then the Multitude 1. Because it is not the custome in any Assembly that all the Multitude read Epistles 2. Neither is it possible without very great confusion Ob. But how could the People then rejoyce for the consolation A. 1. Because the Letter was read in their presence by the Church-Officers A. 2. But put the case that the Letter was read by the People it could not be till after it had been read in the Representative Church or by the Elders and after that it had been published A. 3. Howbeit it had been received and read by the People or to the People yet was not that an Act of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction but of obedience of an inferiour Ecclesiasticall Judicatorie to a Superiour A. 4. It might have been read to all the People yea to Children and women that were to obey And yet it follows not presently that they had Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction A. 5. It might have been read to all or by all Tanque subjecto Denominationis Et ut quod But not tanquam subjecto ut quo as when the whole Kingdome is that which is named rich or potent howbeit their Riches and Power be not in every man but in a few So a man is said to be judged by the Kingdome who is only judged by the Kings Counsell or by the Parliament or Representative Kingdome and neverthelesse what the Parliament does is said to be done by the Reall Kingdome or it may belong to the whole Body but not wholly but to every part according to the exigence thereof Ob. They say that 1 Cor. 5. and 2 Cor. 2. The Apostle commands all the People to Excommunicate the incestuous man when they were gathered together and after his repentance to receive him to the peace of the Church againe A. We deny that the Apostle gives any such Power to the People or promiscuous multitude by that passage but only to Church-Officers that represents the Church Inst But they prove it on this manner They among whom the Fornicator was that were puffed up when they should have sorrowed and from out of the midst of whom he was to be put who had done that thing Item They who had to purge out the old leaven that were not to company with Fornicators Covetous men Drunkards c. received Power to judge and to Excommunicate that incestuous man But the Fornicator was not amongst the Elders alone neither were they alone puffed up c. E. He was not to be judged by them alone but by the Church with them though governed by them A. 1. This Argument failes mightily in forme 1. Because it containes two or three Conclusions viz. 1. He was not to be judged by them alone 2. Hee was to be judged by the Church with them 3. He was to be judged by the Church governed by them 2. This Syllogisme is either Categoricall and so failes because of the Assumption Negative in the first Figure or Conditionall because of the Major Relative and so it failes because it destroyes the Antecedent in the Assumption A. 2. It failes in Matter For the first Proposition being taken Universally is false because the Fornicator was among Women and Youths c. who were puffed up c. and yet our Brethren grant that they had not power to Voyce or to Excommunicate 2. Because 2. Cor. 2. v. 6. This punishment is said to be inflicted by many and not by all for many are opposite to all as ye may see in Arist. 1. Top. c. 1. sect 7. 3. Because in the Text there is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Beza observes which is more then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as others observes it is only the greater part in number as in that passage of Arist 1 Top. 1. sect 7. but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as those that are greater in dignitie which are but few viz. the Church-Officers that rule the Church as Beza observes upon this place A. 3. That howbeit this be said and written to them all Yet is it not said to them all alwayes but according as they were capable to obey Now some were capable to obey by Judiciall Power as the Representative Church in Excommunicating him and so binding themselves and others by Authority to quit his company Others only as private Persons or Christians in obeying the Sentence of the Representative Church And so this was said and commanded to private Christians But they Reply As it was not enjoyn'd the Levites and Elders alone in Israel to purge out of their Houses the materiall Leaven but it belonged to the People also so is it in the Spirituall Leaven A. This we grant that it was the duty of every Israelite by obedience as he was a Private person to put away the Materiall Leaven out of his own house And so it is every private Christians duty to put away the Spirituall Leaven But neither among the Israelites had every private or particular man a publick Authority and Jurisdiction to put it away out of his own and all other Houses nor among Christians to put away Spirituall Leaven Every particular man in his own house may command but not in another mans without publick Authority They bring another Text. 1. Tim. 5.20 Those who sin rebuke publikely that others also may feare But what inferre ye from hence E. Every one of the People have Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction to rebuke publickly A. Wee deny the Consequence 1. For this is said to Timothy who was a Pastor and an Evangelist and not to every one of the People 2. Because every one of the People hath not the gift to robuke publikely at least pertinently or 3. If some of them meddle with this charge I thinke they will deserve more to be rebuked themselves then he who is rebuked by them 4. If this belong to every one of the People E. That which is said Cap. 4. v. 11. These things command and teach v. 12. Let no man despise thy youth v. 14. Neglect not the