Apostles had left to all churches the booke it self It is likely therefore that the ould Testament was brought in by the first Christians ' of the CircuÌ„cision who accepted of those bookes which they saw the Apostles honnor and make vse of and from them it came to the Gentill Christians and so by litle and litle was accepted of by all the Christian church with the same veneration that the Apostles and Iewish Christians gaue vnto it But how soeuer shall wee not thinke at least §. 3 That tradition for scripture is more vniuersall then traditioÌ„ for doctrine NEphew Surely vncle for my part I caÌ„not thinke but that the scripture hath a more vniuersall tradition theÌ„ anie point of Christian doctrine or at least then anie of those which are disputed betwixt vs and the Protestants seeing that all Christians doe agree in the acceptation of the scripture and farr fewer in diuers pointes of doctrine For such churches as are in communion with the church of Rome are no such extraordinarie part of christendome if they were compared to all the rest Vncle. For the Extent of the churches I cannot certainely tell you the truth because I feare manie are caled ChristiaÌ„s who haue litle ether in their beliefe or liues to verifie that name But you know in witnesses the qualitie is to be respected as well and more theÌ„ the quantitie So that such couÌ„tries in which Christianitie is vigorous are to be preferred before a greater Extent of such as are where litle remaines more then the name But to come neerer to your difficultie suppose that in a suite in law one side had seuen lawfull witnesses the other had as manie and twentie knights of the post knowne periured knaues or vnlawfull witnesses more would you cast the other side for this wicked rable Nephew No truly for seing the law doth inualidate their testimonie I should wrong the partie to make anie accompt of them and therefore I should judge the parties equall Vncle. Why then you see that who will challenge a more vniuersall Tradition for scripture then for doctrine must first be certaine that there is no lawfull exception against those Christians whom he calleth to witnesse to witt against the Armans NestoriaÌ„s Eutychians and the like Now the Catholike church accounteth these men wicked in the highest degree that is guiltie of Heresie and schisme And therefore the partie which esteemeth of their witnesse must by taking of them for honnest men beare him self for their fellow and account the Roman church wicked and not fitt for testimonie from whom neuerthelesse he hath receiued what soeuer he hath of Christ Besides the witnesse and testimonie which these men giue is only that they receiued scripture from that church which excluded them from communion at their beginnings and euer continued in opposition against them to witt the Catholike Wherefore it is euident that their testimonie addeth nothing to the testimonie of the Catholike church but only declareth what the testifieth nor consequently maketh anie traditioÌ„ more vniuersal Let vs therefore now see whether §. 4 The text of scripture can haue remained incorrupted or no. FOr hitherto we haue only compare the and 〈◊〉 of scripture in itselfe to tradition now we will come a litle closser and compared it as we haue it to the same doctrine deliuered once 〈…〉 tradition I meane that hitherto we haue spoken as if we had those verie bookes which the canonicall writer made with their owne hande and of what authoritie they would be But now we will considere their since we haue but copies of them of what authoritie these copies ought to be Can you resolue this question Nâ—phew I doubt not sir but for that end which wee seeke that is to make a iudge of controuersies euerie word euerie letter and euerie title must be admitted of absolute and vncontrolable certainâ—ie And so I heare the vulgar edition in latine is commaÌ„ded to be held amongst vs. For I easily see that if anie one sentence may be quarrelled euerie one will incurre the same hazard all being equaly deliuered and equaly warranted with reason and authoritie Vncle. You saie verie well for where there is no lesse theÌ„ the soules of the whole world at the stake I see not what aduantage can giue sufficient securitie if there remaine anie notable vncertaintie Our sauiour saith what can all the world auaile anie man if he loose his soule So that where the question is soule or no soule saluation or damnation nothing lesse then certaintie can serue to proceede vpon And therefore no doubt but if the Apostles had intended to leaue the holy writt for the decider of controuersies in Religion they would also haue prouided that infalible copies should haue beene kept and come downe to the church to the end of the world For such care wee see that priuat men haue of conseruing their bargaines and couuenants by making their Indentures vncounterfeitable and enrolling them in publicke offices were they are to remaine vncorrupted the like care hath common wealths to conserue their recordes specially their laws keeping the verie originalls or authenticall copies with verie great care But what neede wee tooke into the examples of â—â—â—en seeing all mightie God in his owne person hath giuen vs a paterne commanding the Deuteronomie to be kept in the Arke which he would haue to be the authenâ—icall copie to iudge betwixt him and his people and this with the greatest veneratioÌ„ that could be imagined or that euer was giuen to anie thing But this was impossible for the Apostles to doe otherwise surely the would haue done it if they had intended that Christs written law should haue beene our iudge by reason of the multitudes of nations and languages which hindered that not anie one booke could be conserued with such securitie and incorruptibilitie as would be requisite in that case both because of the language and of the mutabilitie of the world euer subiect to a thousand accidents whereby such bookes might fall into the hands of those who would not only neglect them but ether willfully corrupt or seeke vtterly to destroy that which was to be the rule and paterne of Christian faith And for that which you saie is commaÌ„ded vs you conceiue amisse For no wise man thinketh that the vulgar edition is so well corrected that much may not be mended How the vulgar edition is to be receiued but t' is that the church hath secured vs that there is nothing against Christian faith or behauiour contained in those bookes which haue so long passed for scripture and are so in deede for the substance of the bookes and therefore hath commanded vs not to refuse this râ—â—â— in anie controuersie on disputation And this wee and wee only caÌ„ doe for the churche's securitie â—â—seth out of this that she hath an other more forcible ground of hir faith to witt tradition by which being assured what the truth is she can confidently pronunce that in
to be suspected as not true to anie authoritie though he professe to acknowledge it Vncle. Softly cozen softly there 's nothing more frequteÌ„ amongst men then through passion and ouersight to forsake their owne principles and contradict in one matter what them selues confesse in an other And therefore although it be true by coÌ„sequeÌ„ce of reason that who soeuer doth rise against the church in this kinde may vpoÌ„ the same grounde and principle be false to anie other authoritie or gouerment yet vpon other reasons or by not seeing the consequence of his fact he may likewise be true and faithfull And therefore it were rashnesse to condemne for this reason alone those truths which such an one may perhapps mantaine in other matters Howsoeuer is not our coÌ„clusion manifest that there is no place for Ifs and And 's in our case where there can be no euidence brought against a pointe of doctrine which the highest Tribunall and Iudgment vpon earth hath alreadie decreed But suppose some one or few of these innouators had Euidence on their side yet the vulgar people whom they putt on to mutinie cannot haue it no nor anie certaintie that these their ring leaders haue Euidence being not able to compare vnderstandingly the worth of diuers men in a busines which surpasseth their capacitie And therefore this common people in such a case must neede 's proceede and doe whatsoeuer they doe vpon passioÌ„ surprise or interest And consequently those innouators who moued caried and pressed them therevnto cannot be excused from being culpable of temeritie obstinacie and Archi-Rebellion Yet as a Prince doth some times coÌ„descende to his Rebellious subiects that he may gaine time and so bring them to reason as Roboam's wiser Councell thought fitt to giue eare to the cryes of the communities for once that they might serue him euer after So I doubt not but the church both may and will relent some times a litle to establish hir Gouerment and good order more strongly an other time Nor is she to be reprehended if contrariewise she be rigorous vpoÌ„ occasions to witt when she see 's that relenting weaken's hir authoritie and doth rather increase then assuage the mutinie But what is now and then conuenient to be done that belong's to them who are in place to iudge And for vs to obey and sâ—ill suppose they doe the best Nephew Hitherto vncle me thinke's I am well satisfied but there 's a maine difficultie about the diuersitie of the rule of faith I pray tell mee doe you not thinke §. 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of extreme great necessitie FOr we professe you know that tradition or the receite of our doctrine from father to sonne is our cheefe authoritie and our prime motiue of faith All others will acknowledge no other rule then their owne interpretatioÌ„ of the scripture This in my minde is the most important question of all the controuersies in Religion and vpon the resolution of this pointe doth rely and depende all other disputs and difficulties of christian faith nay eueÌ„ our being truly and properly Christians or faithfull For if Christ was a lawmaker not euerie one who professeth his name but who obserueth his law is truly a Christian What it is to be a Christian And if Christ haue sett downe a certaine rule or manner and certaine Magistrats by whom we are to know this law whosoeuer doth not follow that rule and acknowledge those Magistrates cannot be said to obserue his law and consequeÌ„tly professe Christ's name wrongfully Vncle. Doe you thinke cozen that who doth not obserue Christ's law is no Christian what then shall become of sinners shall none of them be ChristiaÌ„s nor of the church of Christ you will make a church of only Elects or Predestinates as the Puritants doe Nephew It may be I goe to farr yet certainely who doth not keepe Christ's law or professe to keepe it is no Christian But then me thinke's I goe to farr on the other side for all those that professe Christ's name doe likewise professe to keepe his law how litle soeuer they doe Vncle. Why then cozen I will helpe you out and open the state of the question vnto you First you must know that this word Ecclesia in it's primitiue sense signifieth a meeting or coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of meÌ„ called out of a greater multitude What is a church as a Councell or Senate is And becaus the first ChristiaÌ„s were called in that manner by Christ and his Apostles Ioh. 15. Ego vos elegi de mundo therefore we properly and deseruedly call the multitude of ChristiaÌ„s a Church Now a multitude called to gether is not only and simply a multitude which may importe confusion but a multitude gathered together and vnited wherein consist's the vnitie of the church If you aske wherein this multitude we speake of is vnited t' is knowne that t' is to doe the will of the caller who being Iesus that is sauiour or Director to saluation their calling must be to walke the paths of saluatioÌ„ And sithence we haue no other Maister of our saluation but Iesus Christ t' is euident that the vnitie of his church must consiste in the obseruance of his law Secondly you are to note that there are two sortes of vnities the one of similitude the other of connection We saie all men are of one nature that 's an vnitie of similitude we saie likewise all the parts of a man though dislike in themselues make one man there 's an vnitie of connectioÌ„ Now if the church of Christ had beene to continue only for his owne or his Apostle's time the former vnitie would haue serued Nay euen now if all the Christians who liue at this day doe and performe the same things practize the same faith and good life and vse the same Sacraments This vnitie of similitude would suffice to make the church of Christ one for the present but could not make it subsiste and continue there being no connection amongst the parts and members of this multitude to make them sticke together Wherefore Christ hauing planted a multitude of faithfull which he intended should subsiste and continue for manie ages no doubt but he hath giuen them such an vnitie as is necessarie for coÌ„tinuance Thirdly therefore you must note that there are two sortes of multitudes in this world which subsiste and continue the one naturall as the parts of a liuing creature the other morall as the members of communities or commonwealths and both haue their proportionall vnities For the first we see that in plantes all the members haue a due connection to the roote from which being cutt of the part dyeth for want of continuitie In other liuing creatures we likewise finde at hart or some thing else that supplie's it's function by connectioÌ„ wherevnto euerie part receiueth life and subsistence and whose passage or communication with that hart being stopped and cutt off the part by litle and
present church as before they did Nephew Nay if you goe that waie to worke I feare you will fall short of your intent For the child belieue's father and mother the parishoner his Pastor without reflection of the present church T' is like therefore these Deuines rely vpoÌ„ the motiues which they mantaine what soeuer they did when they were yong Vncle. Not so nether for as the water of the new riuer which is brought to London come's to a particular house by a smale pipe yet t' is continuate to the whole bodie of the riuer so the instruction of faith though it come to a child by his parents and to a parishoner by his Pastor yet the dependence of the doctrine is from the whole church whose members and instruments these parents and Pastors are if they be in the church to which you know I tould you what is required And t' is the like when parents teach their children what is to be done or auoided according to the lawes of the couÌ„try for though the father speake yet t' is the common wealth which preuaileth and bindeth Nephew At least me thinke's vncle such great Doctors should not be ignorant of a point agreed vpon by the whole church and therefore since they disagree about the motiue of faith I doe not see how you can saie t' is generally agreed on in the Catholike church Vncle. Had this agreemeÌ„t beene made in a Generall Councell or in some vniuersall meeting of faithfull ChristiaÌ„s and so recorded I doubt not but these learned Clarkes would haue knowne it but it was not so agreed on Yet as by the vniuersall blessing of crescite multiplicamini Gen. 1. all men and beasts agreed vpon feeding and filling the world euerie one in his kinde by the directioÌ„ of their maker knocking at their stomackes when they were hungrie and at their pharisie when they were full to set on worke those instruments by which the se coÌ„mands of Almightie God were to be fullfilled Marc 16 Euen so by the like blessing of Euntes in mundam vniuersum praedicate omni creaturae the Apostles being dispersed into all natioÌ„s by the vertue of doeing miracles found credulitie or rather forced faith out of the flintie harts of the corrupted world and hauing setled Christs doctrine dying left in their successors soules and mindes this agreement To belieue what was deliuered from them and to trust those who had heard them speake and afterwards to trust those who had heard it from them who had their instruction from the Apostles and lastly to trust the publike consent which affirmed that they held their faith by entaile from them though manie ages after This agreement being written in harts and not in bookes t' is easie for learned men who seeke their learning in bookes and not in harts to mistake As in Philosophie whilest great Clarkes seeke nature not in it self but in other men's sayings they are deuided and few in the right the truth being but one Nephew You haue beene as good as you word For I see it importe's not that our Deuines be of different opinions in this point so that in their liues and practize they agree And truly I neuer heard of anie Catholike that ether doubted but that Christian doctrine was descended by Tradition or thought that what was so descended could be false nay I thinke euerie moderate and wise Protestant will make no question of that which he conceiues to haue descended from the Apostles by succession For Catholikes wee all rely vpon the censure of the present church nor can or â—are anie man appeale froÌ„ it and call him self a Catholike for we all account them infidels and publicans who are refractorie to this tenet Wherfore t' is euident that what soeuer the church speake's and deliuer's for Tradition is agreed vpon by all Catholikes to be certaine and vnrefusable and sithence all other motiues or rules of faith are not vniuersally receiued t' is euident likewise that this is the rule which can oblige vs to certaintiem matters of beliefe But I haue an other great difficultie to wit that I see our Catechists and preachers wheÌ„ they teach vs Christian doctrine tell vs this you are to belieue this you are to practize without expressing the differences which are betwixt the points of doctrine whereof perhapps some are but only the answeres of learned men some definitioÌ„s of the church and some matters of traditioÌ„ And the like I belieue of former ages Christian doctrine descending vnto vs in a heape or confusion and therefore t is hard to distinguish what is of Tradition what the generall consent of the church and what only learned men's opinions Why then may not some position of this last rancke passe for a tradition by the adoption of some ages in which it will be forgotten that euer it had it's beginning froÌ„ the wit and industrie of priuate men And to satisfie me in this point you must let me see how that The teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what is of necessitie to be belieued what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition VNcle If I should answere you that former ages haue beene more exact in distinguishing things certaine from vncertaine it would not be without ground as you may see by the framing of antient creedes aÌ„d other professions of faith as occasions required but this were to send you to antiquitie whereas in this discourse you know we both desire that common sense and reason without farther enquiry should be our iudge Wherefore the point you speake of which you feare might deceiue vs by the likenesse of tradition is ether true or false if true then I pray what incoÌ„uenience is there if it surprise vs in the qualitie of it's certaintie Nephew This I feare and thinke that it would breake the rule and certaintie of Tradition Where vpon relye's the whole building and frame of our faith according to your discourse For if once truth not deliuered by traditioÌ„ may passe for so deliuered what securitie can we haue that a falsitie may not likewise passe in the same maÌ„ner and so bring an errour amongst vs Vncle. I put you only that part of the question if the point were true which you draw into the contrarie if it were false wherefore if it doe not follow that an vntruth can deceiue vs in that kinde then there is no incoÌ„uenieÌ„ce in the consequeÌ„ce of the former part to wit that truth may be taken as deliuered by traditioÌ„ which truly is not so deliuered And the reason is cleare for seeing the truths of ReligioÌ„ are knowne for the framing of our liues conformably vnto them it importe's litle in respect of vertue vpon what grounds they are held in particular so they be vniuersally and coÌ„stantly held for an action done in consequence of such belieued truths is neuer the worse for the qualitie of the certaintie of it's obiect Yet for your farther satisfaction this I will adde
take much better I shall profit more and you will be in lesse danger to loosâ— your labour Vncle. Well cozen seing you are vnwilling of that discourse I will not trouble you therewith vpon condition that after twelftide you will not faille to come to me with preparation to receiue that doome which I shall laye vpon you for your christmasse trespasses In the interim I conceiue nothing more fitting then to informe you of the cheefest and most important affaire that you can haue vpon earth You know you haue beene borne and bred a catholike And you know it is their beliefe and tenent that all wee catholikes are obliged to venter life and fortunes for the profession of our faith Is it not then a great 〈◊〉 for a catholike gentleman to know full well how to gouerne his temporall estate till his grounds breede his catell sollicite his suits in law and menage all his terrestriall affaires and not knowe Why in such an occasion he ought to hazard yea and if neede be to loose and cast all awaye in the verie sight of his lamenting friends some vpbraiding and some condemning his action as foolish and indiscreete Nephew I pray vncle doe not laye so hard a censure vpoÌ„ me nor thinke me so ignorant of those things with out the knowledge where of I cannot be a catholike And you know wee cannot be admitted to the Sacraments nor can we be esteemed and reputed catholikes vnlesse we belieue that the reward we expect in heauen is farr beyond the pleasures of this world And truly considering what Christ Iesûs hath done and suffered for vs it were most base and vnworthie of a gratefull soule to feare to yeild vp life and goods when it is for his honnor and glorie Nor doe I thinke that more violent and efficacious reasons and motiues can be giuen to a noble haâ—t then these I coÌ„fesse if you would search into the metaphysicall grounds and principles of these truths I should perhaps light short of giuing a full accounte but my age and naturall vnstedfastnesse pleade my excuse as yet peraduenture when I grow elder I may proue more bookish and then turne the scripture and fathers and so become able to giue a more sollide accompte of our tenents but as yet this is not to be expected at my hands Vncle. Feare not cozen anie hard measure from me Who loue you so tenderly nether is that the point I entended to deliuer vnto you But sithence the greatter part of your kinred are of a different beliefe from you I desire to enable you to giue them satisfaction why you adhere so strongly to the Catholike partie as to hazard your owne and posteritie's wellfare for the maintenaÌ„ce of your faith and profession Nether am I ignoraÌ„t of your youthfull disposition and therefore Will I abstaine from misticall and sublime metaphysikes and only or at least cheefely make vse of what you know alreadie and what common sense and ordinarie naturall reason is able to performe wherefore to make the first breach I praye tell me cozeÌ„ what answere would you giue to a neere friend Whâ— should blame you for ruining your estate in the defence and maintenance of a position which is against the iudgment of your kinred friends countrie and state Nephew I would laye opeÌ„ vnto him how that our church and our doctrine hath beene euer preached and taught from Christ's time in all countries of the world what abuÌ„dance of holy martyres and learned men wee haue had how all christian nations haue beene conuerted by vs and such like motiues which are able to secure anie Wise man from doubting and must needes conuince the truth to be on our side our Aduersaries being but vpstarts of an hundreth yeares old Which if anie should coÌ„test and denye these things to be true I Would offer to produce men Who should proue and iustifie all I said against anie Doctor he should bring Vncle. Verie well bur if your friend reply that they willingly coÌ„fesse these things haue beene done by the common Ancestours of both Catholikes and ProtestaÌ„ts which were the true church but manie errours by litle and litle haue encroached and crept in amongst theÌ„ which wheÌ„ they were discouered those who now adhere to the RomaÌ„ church would not acknowledge but through obstinacie and desire of soueraigntie brake communion And farther that these diuisions are not truly diuisions in Religion but in opinion so that both sides remaine still parts of the true church though so much traÌ„sported by their first heates and passions as that causelesly they denye communion one to the other And saie's he if you looke in to the pointes of these diuisioÌ„s they are but such as be in the Roman church it selfe betwixt Thomists and Scotists Dominicans and Iesuits who proceede so farr as to charge one an other with Pelagianisme and Caluinisme which neuerthelesse doth not make different churches euen by the Catholikes owne confession And why then should the Protestants be of an other church then the Catholikes are of What would you answere to this Nephew I am not so ignoraÌ„t but I see well enough that all manner of differences ought not to make a breach in churches Wâ— diffâ—ces Reliâ— maâ— schâ— and yet that some may For I see men goe to law and haue quarells and both partyes not only tollerated in the in the common wealth but held good meÌ„bers of it And yet others I see punished for their quarells and contentions And if I doe not mistake the reason of this disparitie is that as long as these quarells are betwixt priuate meÌ„ so long they are suffered and borne withall but if once the common wealth take part with one side giuing iudgmeÌ„t in the cause disputed and thereby interesse it self in the busines if then the other side yeild not it is iustly accounted punishable and an euill member of the commonwealth And in deede thus to disagree vnder a head or rule which can bring the disagreers to agreement is rather to agree then disagree becaus they agree in a thing to wit in a mutually acknowledged head and coÌ„mon rule which is stroÌ„ger theÌ„ the causes of their disagreemeÌ„t and therefore their disageement is only for a time vntill that head and rule haue a conuenient and fitt opportunitie to reduce the disagreers to a full and totall agreement This dayly experience teacheth vs in our owne commonwealth which hauing once giuen a finall senteÌ„ce and determinate iudgment betwixt partye and partie the suite is ended and who should disobey would be punished for contempt So likewise in the church which is a spirituall common wealth such differences as be amongst those who referre them selues to hir iudgment and acknowledge hir decisiue authoritie are and may be tollerated to what termes soeuer the partyes growe amongst them selues But such differences as trench vpon hir authoritie and are betwixt those whereof the one partye will not acknowledge hir defining power nor stand to hir
iudgment such differences I saye make Aliens and deserue to be cutt of from communion Vncle. You haue discursed well but not home at least to the second part of the replye about the pointes them selues whether they be but matters of opinion or no what saye you to that Nephew That also is euident to me to witt that the pointes disputed betwixt Catholikes and Protestants are most materiall and substaÌ„tiall ones For suppose Christ's bodie be truly and really in the Blessed Sacrament and that t' is God him self which the Priest sheweth the people to adore it suerly can be no slight offence not to giue him due honnor nor contrariewise no smale crime to adore that for God which truly is not so If Christ haue left the authoritie of gouerment to Bishops of Absolution from sinnes to Priests it is no indifferent nor pettit busines to take theÌ„ out of the church If it be Idolatrie to hoÌ„nor images praye to Saincts and the like can we thinke it no great matter whether we doe so or no seing the scripture full of so manie plagues faling vpon rhe Iewes for Idolatrie Vncle. Why cozen may not a Protestant answere you likewise that if one of the opinions controuerted betwixt Thomists and Scotists be Pelagianisme the other Caluinisme can you thinke that such pointes are of smale importance Wherefore he will tell you that all such pointes are verie hard questions graue learned and vnpassionate men on both sides and therefore what so euer the truth be in it self yet so long as God Allmightie see 's our harts to be right towards him and that we desire to doe what his law teacheth vs so farr as we are able to know it all these and the like opinions are but only materiall errors and doe not hinder vs from being good Christians Nephew Truly Vncle you haue puzled me now for vnlesse such pointes and questions doe trench vpon the churche's authoritie why should not the church beare with such opinions but so seuerely cast them out of communion ad shutt heauen gates vpon the Authours and Beginners of them Certes vnlesse there be some necefsitie why certaine pointes are to be knowne by the whole church others not I confesse I cannot answere you but I come to learne and therefore when my owne discourse reacheth not I must craue your helping hand to direct me And I shall thinke the yeare well hanselled if you make me vnderstand what pointes are to be knowne of necessitie and why but first I pray tell me §. 2 Whence proceedeth and dependeth the necessitie of knowing pointes of Religion VNCLE To sett you in the waye you must first tell me what you thinke this word necessitie doth importe so farr as it concerne's our pourpose Nephew You know I am no great claâ—ke and therefore I cannot speake of necessitie nether as a Gramarian nor as a Logician but as farr as I vnderstand and intende by my question there is two sortes of necessities the one so absolute as that the thing we desire cannot without such a meanes be anie waies gotten or doÌ„ne the other in respect of such a meanes without the which our desire cannot bee well and conueniently obtained For we commonly saie that such or such a thing cannot be done or gotten when it is extreme hard and painefull to gett it And therefore some times we call that necessarie without which our desire cannot be fullfilled but with great labour and difficultie and some times that without which it cannot absolutely be compassed Vncle. Mary cozen you neede nether Gramarian nor Logician to helpe you The necessitie of knouing pointes of faith is to be compared to a church or coÌ„panie of belieuers and not to euerie particularman nor to mende what you haue said But since you are so skilfull and that you now see what is necessarie in generall to witt the know ledge of Christian doctrine and what it is to be necessarie I will trouble you with a farther demaÌ„de giuing you first this caueat That my intention is not to examine or declare what expresse and distinct knowledge or beliefe ought euerie particular and indiuiduall man to haue whithout which he cannot possibly be saued this being a thing depending of so manie secret and vnknowne circumstances as that it seemeth to be specialy reserued as only befitting God's infinite wisdome and deuine iustice though some times a prudent man may shrodly guesse and in a possible supposition of a particular man's dying without repentance in a positiue and wilfull contradicting beliefe to the doctrine of the Catholike church it would be no breach of charitie to conclude his daÌ„nation Yet at this present we will only speake of the necessitie of knowing and belieuing seuerall controuerted pointes of Christian doctrine in respect of a church or coÌ„panie of professed Christians in coÌ„mon and not as the knowledge thereof is necessarie to euerie particular man Now therefore tell me what is the end for which this knowledge of Christian doctrine is necessarie Nephew How be knowledge of Christian doctrine cometh to be nessarie to saluation That I suppose no man doubteh but t' is heauen or in more learned termes the sight or true and proper knowledge of Allmightie God who being the cause and Creator of All things he that clearely see 's and truâ—y know's him will see and know all other things in him which all together fall so farr short of giuing such content as is taken by seeing him that the sight of him is only accompted Blisse and the sight of all the rest is but a retenue and conuenience of that first and cheefe sight which of it self alone is our essentiall Happinesse Vncle. This I confesse cozen is both verie true and verie well said of you but yet I must haue an other answere for sure you haue ouer skipp't some thing What connection is there I pray betwixt the knowledge of Christian doctrine and seeing of Allmightie God Some thing I saie must of necessitie be betwixt them for which what soeuer it be the knowledge of Christian doctrine will be more immediately necessarie Which if you can tell me what it is we shall thereby more easily discouer and conceiue what and how farr this knowledge of Christian doctrine is necessarie for vs. Nephew Why vncle you know I haue beene taught no farther then to know what I ought to belieue and doe and that in belieuing and doeing so I shall come to heauen Vncle. And were you not taught that the commandements were resumed and coÌ„prehended in two to wit in the loue of God and of your neighour Nephew Yes that I was but what that appertaine's to your question that I vnderstand not vnlesse peraduenture your meaning be that the accomplishment of these two lawes is the immediate stepp to our Blisse Which as I see t' is verie likely yet doe I not fully conceiue why it should be so vnlesse heaueÌ„ goe by wishing whereas I haue still beene taught it goe's by
waywardnesse or carelessenesse they will not looke after it Suerly I cannot see but t' is only to the increase of their damnation Like vnto an ambitious man who whilest he is yet a farr of from the honnour which he aspire's vnto he can beare it patiently but if once he come to a faire possibilitie and haue it as it were in his hand ô Then if he misse it he is incapable of all comfort and consolation and thinke's him selfe the most vnhappy and vnfortunate man in the word So I conceiue that when a soule is out of hir bodie and come's to see how easily she might haue attained to that eternall Blisse and Happinesse where vnto she was ordained and that through hir owne neglect and carelessenesse she is now to be euerlastingly depriued thereof ô God! Vncle how infinitely will she be greeued how she will curse hir selfe and thereby increase hir paine and miserie Vncle. You saie well cozen Can you doubt therefore or can a Christian thinke but t' is a pointe of great necessitie to man Kynde If there be anie order established by Christ Iesus in his church to make men embrace accepte and poursue those facile meanes to saluation that they know and belieue it Can a man of common sense and iudgment immagine chat this is not a pointe of maine importance Or that who disagree's about this position doth only disagree in matter of opinion wherein each one may hold what he pleaseth and not in a matter substantially and fundamently necessarie to saluation Nephew I confesse Vncle when I coÌ„sidere the frailtie of man and see how easily and ordinarily he is withdrawne from willing and following the meanes of his beatitude by the least terrestriall sensuall and momeÌ„tarie pleasure it where madnesse in me to belieue that supposing there be anie such order established by Christ in his church to incite and prouoke men to accepte and practize these sauing meanes it were I saie madnesse not to thinke the knowledge and beliefe of such an order to be one of the most important and necessarie pointes of christian doctrine Vncle. Remember then cozen the three stepps or degrees we talked of before of knowing esteeming and poursuing anie good And you will finde that for the first it is necessarie the truth of Christian doctrine be conserued and often inculcated in to the harts and mindes of Christians for the second that those who are to doe this haue such qualities as wil giue them credit and make men belieue them and for the third that there be meanes taken so farr as human nature giueth leaue to cutt of all such impediments as hinder men from preferring eternall good before the temporall teÌ„ptations and sensuall pleasures of this life The first of these conditions requireth that there be men appointed to haue care of the people by instructing and often putting them in minde of Christian doctrine Which if Christ haue done t' is euideÌ„t that whosoeuer seeketh to change his order and appointment doth not quarell vpon a sliglt pointe but vpon a most waightie and necessarie one Nephew I see well that who seeketh to distroye such an order established by Christ playe's with his church as Esope's wolues played with the sheepe offering them prey vpon condition they would deliuer vp their doggs vnto them which being done they slew and preyed vpon the sheepe And me thinke's common sense telleth me there cannot be a pointe in all ChristiaÌ„ doctrine of greatter importance then this For when I considere why treason is the greattest offence that can be committed in a common wealth I see t' is because no law can subsiste and hold without guardes and lookers to it so that who striketh at these guardes in a common wealth of what nature so euer it be striketh at the verie essentiall forme of it at all the lawes and at all what so euer doth conserue the peace and libertie of the whole people and multitude where vpoÌ„ the common wealth doth subsiste Wherefore t' is euident by naturall reason that who seeketh to remoue and abolish those whom God hath plaâ—ed to guarde his church striketh at the totall ruine thereof Vncle. T' is true and therefore you maie inferre that questioÌ„s of the Pope's authoritie ouer Bishopps of Bishopps authoritie ouer Priests and of Priests authoritie ouer the laietie are of no smale moment And that who goe's about to distroye this Hierarchie aymeth at no lesse then the vtter ouerthrow of Religion and ruine of the church planted by Christ Iesus with so much sweate and blood and espoused so dearely vnto him with his sacred promises These are the Angells to whoÌ„ God hath trusted and committed the charge of his flocke These are they by whose continuall succession we conuince the perpetuitie of the Catholike church These are the men who when anie new Blasphemie arriseth meete in Councells to giue testimonie to the doctrine of Christ euer dwelling in the harts of the faithfull and thereby crush the serpeni's head These are they who in their wisdomes may and ought enacte lawes and Canons to Christ's flocke and correct abuses creeping in both in discipline and moralitie leauing still vntouched Christ's sacred institutions And therefore who seeketh to extirpate or infringe this authoritie in the church setteth his axe at the roote of faith and vertue by which the church of Christ doth subsiste Nay euen in schismaticall churches the wiser and more learned sort of men haue euer detested and abhorred the confused Anarchie of braine-sicke Puritants And t' is said that wise state's men doe vehemently suspect and haue iust cause to suppresse all Anâ—y-Hierarchists Nephew Certainely no prudent and moderate man can doubt of the importance of this pointe And me thinke's vncle these zealous societies doe to the mainteners of this Hierarchie as Diogenes did to Plato scorning his vanitie with a farr greater pride for whilest they crye out against the pride of those who seeke these dignities established by Christ in his church they discouer a farr greater pride in them selues by endeauoring to distroy so sacred an institution that they them selues may vsurpe the power and place But to the second degree and condition of the diuision you made doe you thinke §. 4 That the administration of the sacraments by the Hierarchie is of such great necessitie VNCLE How saie you cozen what power preeminencie and qualities doe you thinke are necessarie for these guardes and teachers of Christ's law and doctrine to the end that the people may conceite such things as they tell them and thinke them to be of moment for surely the most part of men haue neede of all the helpes that may be to eleuate and raise their mindes to celestiall cogitations Nephew I see well enough that such men must needes haue credit with the people and ought not only to be accounted wise and good men but should be also esteemed wiser and better then the laietie for I haue heard the Prophet's curse cited sicut
populus sic Sacerdos But this me thinke's should not touch vpon anie necessarie pointe of faith seeing it depende's on their particular liues and imployments which are knowne by sense and experience and not by anie tradition from our forefathers Vncle. You are mistaken cozen for although t' is true that the clergie's euill liues may disgrace the motiues of reuerence bestowed vpon theÌ„ by Christ Iesus yet if their liues be but tollerable Christ may haue giuen them such eminent power and dignitie as that they will not want that reuerence and respect which is fitt and conformable to the function and profession wherevnto he hath caled them And certes not with out necessities if we considere the credulitie and obedience which are required at the people's hands Credulitie of things beyond and aboue nature nay beyond all the fables be it spoken with respect that euer man inuented ObedieÌ„ce of hazarding liues and fortunes nay of entirely ruining them selues and their posteritie in respect of this world in such cases as these instructors shall tell them that the law of God commande's it and require's it Wherefore as Kings and Magistrates finde by experience that Pompes and Ceremonies and the reseruing of certaine actions and creations to them selues doe breede in their subiects yea and in strangers too honour and respect and therefore are verie carefull how they imparte and communicate them still keeping to them selues alone some Regall priuileges and prerogatiues So likewise Christ Iesus not vnmindefull of his Ministers left them and to them only the churche's Pompes and solemnities but specially the Sacraments to giue them credit and authoritie thereby To Bishops the giuing of the Holy Ghost or Confirmation Which is a continuance of the Mission of the third person of the holy Trinitie in the first Christian Pentecoste and therefore who slight's Confirmation slight's that MissioÌ„ and the coÌ„secrating of Priests Why Priests are to be honnored To Priests the rest of the Sacraments except Baptisme which by reason of the people's necessitie could not conuenieÌ„tly be reserued to Priests only whereof there were to be but few But cheefely he gaue them charge of the Bloudilesse sacrifice of his owne bodie and the power of remitting sinnes whereon is prinpally grounded and subsiste's the reuerence due vnto the church of God The one being a priuilege beyond man's inueÌ„tion and such an one as if all the learned clarkes that euer liued since the begining of the world should haue studied to raise aduance and magnifie some one istate of men to the highest ptch of Reuerence and Eminencie that could be imagined they could neuer without speciall light froÌ„ heauë haue thouht of anie thing comparable to this And yet so adapted to the secrets of nature that who should diue in to hir mysteries would streight at the first proposing of it acknowledge it to be true because a thing so hidden in the depth of nature's bowels could not be inuented and applyed in this manner by anie but the Maister of nature it self The other being so mightie a power ouer man's nature and so extremely vsefull to mankinde for their helpe and directioÌ„ to eternall Blisse that nether in respect of the awe which it strike's in to their subiects nor in respect of the profit which being conuenienieÌ„tly vsed resulteth from it there is nothing in this world anie waye estimable in comparison thereof What thinke you then cozen who seeketh to take awaye the reall presence of Christ's bodie in the B Sacrament and the power of Absoluing sinnes doth he quarell vpon trifles Be not these pointes which we hold as true and as certaine and vpon the same groundes as we doe the Trinitie and Incarnation of maine consequence and importaÌ„ce And doth not he shake the fundameÌ„tal Basis and cheefe cornerstone of the churche's building who take's awaye this power and authoritie froÌ„ hir iudges and ministers whereby they were so reuerenced and honnored as that they were belieued and obeyed And finally be these questioÌ„s to be left indifferent to euerie idle braine and priuate phansie to thinke and practize what he please's Nephew I must needes confesse I neuer considered thus much before for truly I see that the Administration of the Sacraments are necessarie for this end thoe I haue heard the Sacraments are necessarie for manie other ends But now I easily conceiue that if the clergie be not of credit it cannot haue the effect which it was made and ordained for and if it hath not it's effect it causeth not the keeping of Christ's law and if Christ's law be not kept there is no saluation So that t' is euident the Clergie needeth the greattest proppes and meanes of credit and reuerence that can be had And surely what common wealth soeuer highly esteeme's of God's law and Christian doctrine would wish the Clergie these verie qualities if they had them not allreadie Wherefore I wonder not that the Puritants who mainely oppose Ecclesiasticall Hierarchie doe fo hate and deteste the doctrine of the B. Sacrament because they thinke all Poperie is built vpoÌ„ that great sacrifice And I remember when I was in France I perceiued that going to Masse was hâ—ld the cheefe distinctiue signe and action betwixt a Catholike and a Caluinist So that considering these supernaturall and neuer sufficieÌ„tly honnored qualities of Priests I cesily belieue the storie which is tould of S. Francis that he said if he should meete a Priest and an Angell he would first salute the Biest Vncle. You saie well and surely were all Priest's liues such as did not partly disgrace theses guiftes bestowed vpon them I doubt not but Kings would laye their crownes and scepters at their feete and weare their swords at their deuotion which antiquitie telleth vs haith bene done and practized Yea those Tribunall's and that temporall power and iurisdictioÌ„ concerning which the clergie doth nowe perhaps too much contende with the laietie were at the first forced vpoÌ„ holy Bishops against their wills ether by particular men's pretie and agreement or by the Emperour's commands The world then thinking him vnworthie to liue that would not condemne him selfe if the Bishop iudged against him And both antiently in S. Hugh of Lincolne and lately in S. Charles of Milan the Christian world hath seene how great a power the Reuerence of a Bishop hath euen in respect of Kings when his life corresponde's and seconde's his Dignitie Nephew But I pray vncle doe you thinke that the greatest necessitie 〈◊〉 the Sacraments doth consist in this that by the reseruation of their administration to the clergie the clergie's authoritie might be more exalted and fitter to serue the church I haue heard other reasons preferred before this and therefore me thinke's you should more insist vpon that necessitie which in it self is the greatest and most forcible then vpon a lesser Vncle. Why cozen I doe not intende to alledge all the reasons wherefore the SacrameÌ„ts are necessarie but only some forcible one whereby it may
litle fade's and dye's For the second subsisting and cōtinuing multitude we see in all communities or common wealths there is a head common Councell or highest authoritie wherevnto all the members repaire in necessitie and by their connection therewith they receiue securitie life and motion in that morall kinde of being euerie man doing his dutie according to the lawes of that communitie and the head or supreme authoritie prouiding for the obseruance of the lawes in generall and particularly for the direction of such cases as the lawes reach not vnto So that if you take awaie this head or common wisdome the multitude must of necessitie be short liued and quickly come to ruine Hence it is euident to common sense and naturall reason that the church of Christ being a multitude ordained to subsiste and continew must not only haue the vnitie of similitude and be one by the similitude of actions which Christ hath prescribed and all Christians practize but also by the vnitie of connection to some common head and supreme Councell whereby it may conserue it selfe and keepe it's subiects in the continuance of the law of Christ and in the practize of those actions which he hath commanded And here you may note that were this law naturall there needed no more to be of the church then to be a member of this communitie The Want of the true rule of faith exclude's from the church and he would be out of it who should not participate of the two vnities But our Christian law being aboue nature and cōsequētly not to be learned by man's iudgmēt but by authoritie that is by receiuing it from Christ those who doe not receiue it by that meanes and rule by which Christ hath ordained it shall be receiued are not truly of this communitie whatsoeuer be their materiall beliefe and opinion Wherefore you are to considere farther that this Receipte of Christ's law and doctrine may haue beene ordained by Christ himself to be effected two seuerall waies First by word of mouth that is that this law and doctrine should be vocally taught and deliuered from hand to hand from father to sonne to the world's end secondly by writing Now therefore if Christ haue ordained both these waies who should not accept of them both is not truly and properly a Christiā nor consequently of the Christian communitie If Christ haue only instituted tradition to be the meanes and rule of the receite of his law and doctrine and hath giuen scripture only for superabundant instruction and consolation then who should reiect tradition and flye to the scripture making it his only rule and meanes of receiuing Christ's law and doctrine were not truly and properly a Christian nor of the Christian communitie Lastly if Christ haue ordained scripture alone to be this rule and meanes then who cleaueth to Tradition is not truly a Christian The resolution of this question doth properly belong to the Gouernors of the church who if they haue the true rule their subiects are safe if not their subiects soules will be required at their hands by whom they perish But I will take an other time to giue you a full resolution of this maine difficultie Three things are required to make a legitimate Christiā In the interim you may inferre out of this discourse to our present pourpose that three things are required to make one a legitimate Christian and such an one as euerie Christian ought to bee if he will be truly one of the communitie and church of Christ Though perhaps one may be in some sorte a Christiā and goe to heauen too by an exttaordinarie meanes without hauing all these three subsequent dispositions and qualities The first is that he belieue and practize the law of God which in respect of a particular man is but short and t' is in a word to loue God aboue all things The second is that he be vnited to the multitude of true Christians that is that he depende of the Gouerment left and instituted by Christ here vpon earth And for this pointe or qualitie as I doubt not but some one or few may be saued without it yea peraduenture with an opposition to it in fact through ignorance so his hart be true and without passion yet to thinke this a common ordinarie and high waie to saluation and that t' is as indifferent to liue from vnder this Gouerment setled by Christ as vnder it were ridiculous and absurde in common sense and reasō and in deede it were to annultate Christ's coming and make his law voide and fruitlesse And if you desire to conceiue the necessitie of this pointe more fully doe but reflect and considere the nature of all ciuill and politicall commonwealths wherein if anie member doe not liue vnder the Gouernors and depende of the Magistrats established by the highest power and authoritie thereof he cannot be truly and properly said to be a part and member of that communitie nor can he assuredly know ordinarily speaking nor constantly performe the law and orders of it The third pointe is that this communitie whereof euerie particular Christiā is to be a share and member hath the true rule and meanes to know and obserue the law of Christ And it is necessarie that this pointe be more exactly knowne by those who liue amongst diuersitie of opinions in this matter For where there appeares learned and morally good mē taking parts in this question a priuat man seeme's to haue iust reasō to doubt whether side he shall take for his guide and therefore this pointe well dicussed amōgst such giue 's a man full and generall satisfaction for his whole beliefe and practize And these two last pointes cleere one the other for that communitie which hath the true meanes of the receipte of Christ's law and doctrine that is the true rule of faith must of necessitie be it of and in which we are to seeke and shall finde Christ's law And contrariewise if we finde the true communitie we are sure it hath the true rule of knowing Christ's law and doctrine Hence it is that the Catholike church euer pressed hir Aduersaries with two speciall arguments 1. with the noueltie of their church shewing that none of them euer had a continuall visible succession 2. that they receiue not their opinions from their Ancestors and by them from Christ but that they were inuented at such a time against the receiued tenet of the church in that time that is traditiō for the church and noueltie of doctrine in hir Aduersaries And now I thinke you see the resolution of our first question Nephew I thinke I doe and t' is if I be not deceaued that such as professe to keepe the law of Christ though in effect they doe not performe it are to be accounted of the church and consequently sinners are not to be excluded so long as they submitte them selues to the churche's Gouerment established by Christ And on the other side though diuers
Reuerencing their reliques and pictures 3. In hoping good of them by praying vnto them For we naturally thinke the greatest goods to be in those who deserue honour and can-doe good to others and therefore we neuer make anie great conceite of those things whence we can nether expect anie good nor wherevnto we thinke no honour due Nephew I cannot but interrupt your discourse with admiration to see how men who suerly had not cast awaie all thoughts of vertue sithence they had so manie followers and were in so great esteeme should vnder slight pretences so weaken the maine strings by which pore men were drawne to heauen and that for a litle vanitie and desire to appeare more learned then others How true is it vncle that man hath no foe but him self For not all the Tortures and Tyranies not all the inundations of waters and rauagings of fires that can be immagined could euer haue donne so much harme to man kinde as the verie taking awaie of the esteeme and conceite which we Catholikes haue of the excellencie and greatnesse of Saincts and of the happy estate which they enioye and which is the end we all ayme at Vncle. Oh! cozen if Alexander Cesar or anie of your great glorie hunters had considered in their life time what now peraduenture to their great greefe they cannot be ignorant of the difference that there is euen in this worldly and vaine glorie betwixt Peeter the fisherman or Paul the tentmaker who neuer aymed at this honour but thought it worse then the dust which they shaked from their shooes and them selues who poursued it so keenely with perpetuall dāger of their liues wasting their estates and Coūtries and ruining their neighbours if this I saie they had then knowne would they not haue changed their mindes and followed other courses And doe they not now mauger them selues and teare their verie soules in pieces to see their owne follie and their no lesse witlesse then gracelesse ambition And doe you not then thinke that the holy church vseth in this a most efficacious meanes to bring men to a vertuous life being she doth by this doctrine of honoring and praying to Saincts so strongly commende vnto vs the glorie and Blisse after which we ought to thirst and hope if we be true Christians Nephew For the two first points I confesse you haue reason but for the third I feare you will not come so well of For the easier it is to obtaine anie good the more wee esteeme it ours and consequently the more hart we haue to goe about it And what waie can be thought more easie then to make a cōceite of Christ's goodnesse and thinke that without anie paines or deserts on our side he will giue vs that great reward according to his owne pleasure more or lesse purely and only out of his mercie and goodnesse whitout anie respect or regarde to our workes or liues in this world Whereas we Catholikes make the gates of heauen so narrow and the paths therevnto so rougged that we seeme rather to deterre then exhorte men to vertuous liues Vncle. If ether we or they could thinke to come to Blisse whithout good life I should not wōder at your propositiō for in that case it were the best and only course to haue a great confidēce in him whose guift it is But if Christ hath nether left anie such waie nor you or anie vnderstanding mā belieue that faith with a wicked and carelesse life will bring a mā to saluatiō Cā you thinke that such an exaggeration of faith and confidence and such a disesteeming of good workes can be a meanes to persuade and incite men to sticke closse and persiste in vertuous actions which by all our confessions are requisite and necessarie to saluation Surely the Catholike church taketh the securer waie And the reason is because workes in the waie of merite that is done for God's sake and with hope of heauen cannot be without faith but how easie it is for a man to persuade him selfe that he hath much faith without working we finde by dayly experience Hence it is that the Catholike church doth moue and persuade vs to labour for our eternall happinesse by proposing vnto v the examples of men The force of examples in man's life as we are who haue made this great conquest in the most exact and solemne act of canonization of Saincts And also of others who by professing of extraordinarie labours make it appeare that the waie is not so hard but that manie dayly treade the paths of it I meane in Religious professions in which all sortes of austerities are dayly practized before our eyes which ought not to be derided and scorned as manie doe For what power the examples and conuersatiō of good men haue euerie wise man know's And for examples we see that all the dangers of the sea and warrs that diuing into the bottome of the Ocean and deluing to the center of the earth hanging on ropes and scaffolds and what soeuer man hath inuented in this kinde doe not deterre men where there is ether profit or Admiration Let but one desperate beginner shew the waie and he will not want multitudes of followers so ether vanitie or gaine second his aduentures And if the force of Example be so great the losse of wanting it must needes be equiualent and consequently the wrong done to Christians by taking it awaie must be no lesse And therefore the question and cōtrouersie whether it should be maintened in the church or no is of no smale importance Nephew I perceiue well that you still continue according to your promis to shew the necessitie and importance of controuerted pointes of Religion by shewing their force and efficacitie of producing profitable and aduantageous effects for mankind's attaining and coming to eternall Blisse and I see that this is a verie connaturall and efficacious proofe But I feare all pointes of controuersies cannot be proued that waie For I pray how should anie man shew me §. 10 That the Sacraments of order and Matrimonie the Generalitie of Ceremonies or the opinion of miracles are necessarie VNcle You remember I proposed vnto you but now a diuision of some things which concerned the breeding others the conseruation of vertue and deuotion For although such things as augment vertue doe likewise of necessitie conserue it yet there may be some things which properly are to conserue it and not to augment it or at least of two things which doe both the one may conserue it because it breed's it the other may augment it because it cōserue's it Now therefore if we finde anie thing whose principall effect is only to hinder such contrarieties as would distroye pietie and deuotion such properly speaking doe not augment it of them selues but yet they may be truly said to conserue it Farther if you considere you shall finde that this hindering of cōtrarieties and opposites to vertue is performed two waies First by remouing all such
things as put men in feare of yeilding to the contrarie which is a kinde of strengthening of man's weaknesse against these cōtrarieties Secondly by diminishing and aswaging the force and violence of these contrarieties ether in them selues or in their action In the first manner doe contribute all kinde of Ceremonies and particularly those which are vsed in the instalements and Beginnings of offices and charges as the Sacraments of Order and Matrimonie And likewise the opinion of miracles For Ceremonies their nature in generall is to put in men's heads the conceite of a high and sublime thing whereby we proceede with greater caution and warinesse in the busines which we haue in hand And for miracles the beliefe and opinion of them once well grounded as it ought to be make's the people extremely apprehensiue of the presence of Almightie God and of his immediate gouerment of human affaires So that as to be ouer credulous of miracles is the signe of a light and imprudent man for according to reason the stranger the thing is the greater ought to be the proofe which should make vs belieue it so likewise not to thinke that some miracles in common haue beene and are now done in the Catholike church were to contradict the vniuersall and constant opinion of all good Christians and deserue's to be suspected of not belieuing the particular prouidence of Allmightie God which is the maine string where vpon all Christianitie and supernaturall Religion hāgeth and which all Maisters of pietie and deuotion haue euer souht to grounde strōgly in the harts and soules of men Nephew But I pray vncle how will this be true in Matrimonie for that concerne's me he vse whereof consist's in such a materiall and sensuall pleasure I haue often reflected why the Catholike church which make's so great esteeme of virginitie should place mariage amōgst the Sacraments and make such great Ceremonies in the administration of it Vncle. You speake like a youngster And I would to God your conceite and thought were not so deepely rooted in the harts of manie young men like your selfe The Apostle tell 's you that the right and lawfull vse of the bed is honorable Why t' is fitt that Matrimonie should be a Sacramēt Heb 13. 1. Tim. 2. and that woemen are to be saued by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is bringing forth of Children God Almightie hath bestowed this procreation of children vpon his seruants as a cheefe temporall Blessing so we see in Abraham and in the good woman that entertained Elizeus and suerly it was the first Blessing that God bestowed vpon his creatures If you considere for what end God sanctifie's anie action you shall finde t' is only for man's vse And then reflect vpon the goods which follow the lawfull vse of this materiall action betwixt man and wife and you will not wonder that God hath placed a Sacrament in matrimonie I doe not doubt but the light of reason tell 's you that in respect of good oeconomie a man's hauing but one wife and his perpetuall cohabitation with hir is the best manner of secular liuing that can be both for temporalities sake and for hauing a quiet and contented life Which supposed Mariage must needes be a matter of great consideration For ether a man must liue without a woman which kinde of life is but for few or with this womā after he hath once taken hir And therefore t' is of great importance that this manner of life of it's owne nature be conuenient and gratfull Besides you know a man take's a great deale of naturall content in his wife generally speaking which some times drawe's him to strang inconueniences vnlesse his passions and affections be well moderated and setled for you know hee take's hir for his best friend his best seruant and his dearest partner in all his busineses supposing she be wise and prudent and consequently euer complying in reason with hir husband's humour Whereby you see that the making of a Marriage and the vsage of it when t' is made is the pinne whereon doth hang the cheefe content and sweetnesse of a maried man's life the good of his posteritie the maine successe and prosperitie of his temporall estate or fortunes And aboue all the breeding of his children and the instilling of pietie and vertue into their tender harts which may grow with their age and carie them to felicitie Iudge now cosen whether it was not conueniēt and fitting that in the law of grace this Action should be eleuated and rancked in the highest degree and order of those actions which God hath sanctified for the vse of man And ought we not to commende and preferre the wisdomes of our forefathers before all other nations for making so great esteeme of it and celebrating it with such great ceremonies Nephew Truly I am to thanke you for this good lesson because it may be of speciall vse for my selfe And I could wish it were giuen to all men before they marrie For my selfe I thanke God I am so well sped that I neede not wish to haue learned it sooner But I pray vncle lett me know the other part of your diuision that is which be those things you said were necessarie to breake the force of cōtrarieties and temptations against vertue and which might comfort and strengthē men in this distresse I doe imagine that you ayme at some things which you will hardly proue As for Example doe you thinke that for this end §. 11 Praying for the dead Extreme vnction and Confession are necessarie VNCLE Setting a side the temptations of sensuall pleasure which we suppose to be moderated by mariage there remaine's feare and grieefe Feare is cheefely of death and iudgment following Griefe is of losse which to rationall men is aboue all other things of friends of whom the cheefest is Allmightie God who is lost by sinne the next is of temporall friends who are principally lost by their death This last is taken awaie by the beliefe of their suruiuing and that once we shall enioye them againe Whence proceede's the desire of continuing amitie and communication with them HoW prayers for the dead doe appease the griefe of the liuing which being only to be had by the mediation of Almightie God it cannot be performed but by praying for them if we thinke they stand in neede And so a great part of this griefe is taken awaie amongst Catholikes by the diuersion of care to gett prayeres said for them and an other part turned to Almightie God by hoping good for them at his hands Whereas others giue their friends ouer in death with a farewell frost or else are plunged in vncurable sorrow for an vncurable losse for the beliefe of enioying them againe when there is no communication in the interim is but cold comfort and sinke's not deepely as things farre from vs doe generally litle moue vs. The feare of death is much moderated by the Sacrament of Extreme vnction
of such an Apostle so by litle and litle it grew froÌ„ one countrie to an other vntill it was spredd ouer the whole Christian world So that some countries had not the new Testament complete that is all the bookes of it for a long time Wherefore no wonder that some haue doubted of seuerall parts thereof being not able to auerre as not assured by reason of some accident that such bookes were truly the workes of such an Apostle or Disciple which not withstaÌ„ding Why the canon of scripture is cheefely to be had from Rome better intelligeÌ„ce being gotten might be afterwards receiued for scripture And here you may note by the way that the Roman church is that church to which in reason wee ought to giue most credit touching the canon of the scripture For Rome being at that time â—that is at least for the first 300 yeares to the Christian world or rather to all the Christians dispersed in diuers parts of the world as London is to England And that wee see the collection of things estimable dispersed in seuerall Prouinces of our Kingdome is sooner and better made in London then in anie other part of our Countrie it must needes follow that the collection of the Holy scripture or new Testament was more exactly faisable at Rome then at anie other place But this by the way For my ayme is to make you iudge whether anie one substantiall point The state of the questioÌ„ which the Apostles whith common conseÌ„t preached through the whole world compared to anie one booke of the new Testament which soeuer you thinke first or best receiued whether I say of these two haue descended vnto vs with more certaintie the one to be the Apostles doctrine the other to be such an Apostle's booke Nephew I should distinguish your question for ether it may be compared to that particular Prouince or church where the Apostle him selfe deliuered it both in word and writing or to the whole church And I confesse that in respect of the whole church that point of doctrine which is euerie where preached must needes haue more certaintie but where both are equaly deliuered by the same Apostle to the same church I should thinke the worke should haue more authoritie theÌ„ the word For t' is an easie matter to let slipp a word some times Whereas writing requireth a more setled consideration Vncle. If the question be but of a particular church or Prouince I doubt it will not be sufficient to giue vs a firme authoritie for ether one or the other vnlesse we add more circumstances then we haue declared And the reason is because one Prouince maye haue had Religion so ruinated in it by the incursion of infidells that recouering theÌ„ selues after a long time they may as well mistake one booke for an other as one doctrine for an other and so this point is not much to our pourpose Although euen in this case the doctrine taught by word of mouth hath these aduantages That it is deliuered to manie the booke to few or in some one place The doctrine heard and vnderstood by manie the booke only to such as can reade nor to all them nether but to such as are carefull The booke belonge's not much to the practize of the multitude the doctrine gouernes their whole liues The booke brought often times by some one maÌ„ as some messeÌ„ger if it be an Epistl or other wise sent from some other place or froÌ„ some one person as from Titus of Timotheus to whom it was first written and vpon whose authoritie only the whole veritie must originally rely But to returne to our case Doe you not see that the whole church trusteth some one particular man at the first vpon whom she buildeth hir beliefe tht this is such an Apostles worke that is scripture But for anie materiall point of doctrine she relyeth vpoÌ„ the vniuersall knowledge of theÌ„ who heard it preached in diuers parts of the world So that as I doe not intende to say the one is certaine the other not for a particular churche's authoritie may be certaine in some circonstances yet I must needes say that betwixt these two certainties there is such a differeÌ„ce that if the one were to bring in verdict vpon the other it would be much more forcible and euident to conclude that this booke is scripture because it is according and conformable to the doctrine taught and preached then that this doctrine is the Apostle's because it is conformable to this booke For if it be true that the whole church once relyed vpon some one particular church for this veritie it can neuer come to passe that the certaintie of this booke proue greater then was the authoritie of that particular church at that time And consequently the same comparison which is to be made betwixt the authoritie of this particular church and of the vniuersall church the same I say is to be made betwixt the certaintie of this booke 's being scripture and of this point of doctrine's being catholike and Apostolike And for the inconuenience you were jealous of it falleth out quitt contrarie For whether we considere the inspiration and assistance of the holy ghost or the industrie aed carefullnesse of man you shall euer finde that the end is more principally aymed at then the meanes to compasse the end and likewise amongst diuers meanes the most immediate to the end is still most aymed at wherefore in our case the end both of writing and speaking being the deliuerie of this doctrine for the good of the people no doubt I say but that both the AssistaÌ„ce of the holy ghost and the care of man tendeth more principally to the deliuerie of this doctrine then to other things that came in by chance in which only there might be a slipp as you immagine Wherefore sithence tradition containeth not all the words the Apostles spoke but meerely what belong's to ChristiaÌ„ doctrine which was principally deliuered and the cheefe errand of the Apostles and that in the scriptute manie things are written vpon occasion and as it were by the bye no doubt but in both these respects to wit of the assistance of the holy ghost and of the care of man the certaintie will be greater of the doctrine deliuered by word of mouth theÌ„ of the holy writt Besides the slipps you speake of are when things are only once deliuered or spoken without great premeditation whereas this doctrine was a thing perpetually beaten on so as there can be no feare of such slipping HoW the old Testament came to Christians hands For the ould TestameÌ„t as I confesse t' is possible that the Apostles might haue deliuered it in all Countries where they preached so likewise I thinke t' is euident that they neuer did it being that the church hath no such memorie And that the Canon hath beene doubted of by some and the Iewish Canon alleadged whereof there had beene no vse nor neede if the
disciples and the people vnderstand perfectly and fully comprehende all pointes of Christian doctrine to resolue all doubts and difficulties to make the apprehension of the doctrine sincke into the verie soules of the people and to setle a forme of Gouerment and Conuersatiō and to invre the first Christiās to the practize of this doctrine whereby it might subsist and continue as long as possibly it could For this I see is the dictamē of prudence and wisdome in such a case and the course all those who foūd new institutions Vncle. You saie well And surely such a time for a litle Prouince of about two or three dayes iournay's semidiameter was verie sufficient for the instructing of their disciples in all materiall pointes and setling of instructers to succeede them But in case immediately after the decease or departure of the Apostle there should arise according to our sauiours forewarning false Prophets or Rauenous wolues vnder pretence of sainctitie endeauoring to deuoure the flocke nay that euen some amongst them selues out of vanitie should beginne some new doctrine How controuersies were decided immediatly after the Apostles drawing disciples after them and so making them selues head of a partie and of a doctrine contrarie to that which the Apostle had taught vrging reasons out of nature and texts out of that Apostles owne writings by whom they were taught or out of his follow Apostles and strengthen his partie by the adherence of manie of the weaker sort what I saie would the Gouernors and teachers of the faithfull doe in this case How would they behaue thē selues to hinder the ruine of their weaker breetheren Nephew I doe imagine that meeting together they would examine this new Doctrine taking sor their rule that doctrine which the Apostle deliuered vnto them And knowing that he could nether contradict him self nor anie of his Breetheren being all inspired by the Holy Ghost they would conclude that the Innouators reasons were captious his texts wrong vnderstood if they were obscure or corrupted if they were plaine For nothing could be so euident vnto them as that which for three yeares together had beene perpetually beaten into them where in they had beene continually examined and cleered and which had beene so long the fundation of their new manner of life and practize so that this must needes be the most euident vnto them of all things and therefore they would surely forgoe all other rules to gouerne them selues by this as being most frie from errour Vncle. Your conclusion follow 's plainely For they hauing no other stay of their beliefe then that S. Paul for example had taught them so t is cleere that to them these two questions were but one whether the opiniō proposed was true and whether it was accordimg to what S. Paul had taught them And therefore to be against that which they had beene taught to them was to be false So that there nether was nor could be anie other question in the church at that time in matters of faith but whether the Apostles had taught such a doctrine or no For the Apostles hauing spēt so much time in teaching Christian doctrine in so litle a Prouince what they had not taught must needes be presumed not to be necessarie and consequently not deseruing to make a schisme and breach amongst Christiās and what they had taught to be without all controuersie true and certaine Wherefore if such an Innouator would not stand to this iudgment he was to be expelled the church as disagreeing from the Christians in the principall rule and soueragne Tribunal of Christianitie by which and only which they could at that time decerne and decide what was Christian doctrine what not Happie that age in which it was so easie to resolue anie difficultie arisning for it was no more then to meete together and aske one an other How haue you beene taught And all was ended and who should haue resisted this decision was to be cast out with common consent as a reprobate But tell me cosen how long doe you thinke this Happinesse cōtinued in the church Nephew For the time of the Apostles and of their disciples who are commonly caled Apostolicall men ther 's no question to be made no nor of the age of the disciples of these Apostolicall men To whom I see not why I may not add yet an other age for doubtlesse those Apostolicall men must needes haue beene of that reputation as that what soeuer was constantly remembred to haue beene their doctrine was likewise to be esteemed the doctrine of the Apostles their Masters supposing it was knowne to bee vniuersally and generally theirs and not the opinion of some one or two of them only Vncle. And will it be a stumbling blocke vnto you if we add yet an other descent to wit of the Grandchildren of these Apostolicall mē for the memorie of publicke and generally practized things is fresh from Grandfathers vnto their Grandchildren So that this degree or goldē age may well consist of fiue descents that is of some 200 yeares allowing 40. yeares to a descēt which is not much seing that witneses of 60. yeares are ordinarily found in euerie busines in the same Prouince and therefore where the question is of a publicke and vniuersall practize which concernes manie countries and nations who haue intercourse and communication together such witneses may be much more easily found But what shall we saie of the next ensuing age Nephew I conceiue that these descents you speake of may easily haue reached to Constātine's time when Christian Religiō being publicke the multitudes of fathers and writers would supplie the deiect of this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or self seeing into the well spring of Christianitie But whether you driue that waie or no I know not Vncle. It is not needfull for sithence the last age doth directly know what was the Apostles doctrine All such ages as can reach to knowe the doctrine and practize of that last age are able certainely to resolue though in a lower degree anie arising difficultie not because they cā immediately tell that such a pointe is contrarie to the doctrine of the Apostles but because they can tell that t' is against the doctrine of the fist descēt which doctrine they know to be the dokrine of the Apostles Wherefore vpon the like ground we may add fiue descēts more which according to our former computation will make vp 400. yeares und peraduenture by extēt may reach to fiue or 600 yeares after Christ that is to the second conuersion of nations I meane to the conuersion of those barberous people which ouerunne the Roman Empire and brought almost all the world backe vnto the formerly extirpated paganisme Nephew Why then wee neede no more for the Protestāts confesse that Poperie hath raigned since Phocas his time nay they sticke not to saie that Gregorie the Great was the last good and first bad Pope seeming to thinke that frō him beganne that which they
certainely knowne hitherto nor euer expressy belieued before Which how they may be reconciled amongst them selues or stand with this that tradition is our rule of faith I confesse I know not Vncle. Truly cozen your obiection is strong yet I hope to content you For the first part of it I see no great matter in the varietie of opinions amongst our Deuines for you see they seeke out the Decider of pointes of doctrine that is by whose mouth we are to know vpon occasions of dispute what and which be our pointes and articles of faith to wit whether the Pope or the Councell or both Which is not much materiall to our pourpose what euer the truth be supposing we acknowledge no articles of faith but such as haue descended vnto vs by tradition from Christ and his Apostles The second part of your obiection seeme's to be of greater force because some Deuines seeme to acknowledge an authoritie in the church which hath power not only to determine ether speculatiue or practicall points of doctrine new or ould in such manner as that the whole church is obliged to accepte or not oppose it's definition which euerie Catholike grante's and the reasons I tould you in our first conference doe euidently conuince But also that this authoritie can so determine euen a speculatiue pointe of doctrine which hitherto was euer vncertaine nor euer acknowledge as reueiled or esteemed as an article of faith that here after the vhole church shal be obliged to receiue acknowledge and belieue it as a reuealed and necessarie point of Christian doctrine and as an article of faith Which opinion you must knowe is but an opinion nor doe the authours of it oblige anie man to belieue it as certaine nor doe they condemne those who nether doe nor euer will acknowledge anie such positiō ād therefore this ought not to trouble you Nay contrariwise all Deuines will generally tell you that no new articles of faith can be made that there 's now no reuelations for new points of doctrine and that Christ Iesus was our only law maker in this kinde hauing suggested to his Apostles all that is necessarie of this nature and qualitie and the Apostles likewise taught their churches all that was necessarie to be knowne of this degree Wherefore you see all agree vpon tradition nor anie one ether denie it or doubt of it Whereas it appeare's by the diuersitie of their opinions that they doe not vniuersally and generally agree in anie other meanes or rule of faith though some admitte of another in waie of opinion Yet to giue you farther satisfaction in this busines I will teach you a point of philosophie which perhapps you neuer fully vnderstood I am sure you will not denie but t' is a differēt questiō to aske how an herbe or tree growe's and to aske how Aristole or Theophrastus saies it growe's for in the same growing there can be no varietie but in their opiniōs there may So in man t' is a differēt thing what he doth or is done in him and what he thinkes he doth or is done in him as in sicknesse disgestion and other naturall workes t' is euident yea and in voluntary actions too Which depende of corporall instruments as to goe runne turne our eyes speake cough spit or the like which we doe freely and voluntarily yet were we examined by what instruments and motiōs we doe thē peraduēture who seeme's to know most would be found short at least amongst manie there would be diuers opinions But doe you thinke the same happen's in our thoughts and iudgmēts which be purely spirituall Nephew I cannot tell yet me thinke's the soule should be so wel acquainted with hir owne actiōs as that she should not neede anie helpe to know them And all men agree that only man vpon earth can see his owne minde and therefore if it be not cleere to man what himself thinke's nothing is cleere Vncle. You are deceiued cosen for as long as we are in this world we cannot know anie thing of our owne thoughts and affections but as we reflect vpon the corporall motions which accompanie them and which because none feele but our selues none can knowe bur our selues though sometimes it happene's quite contrarie when these motiōs breake forth into outward apparence for thē others discrye our mindes and we our selues through the violēce of passiō are not so wel able ro iudge of them as others who see vs. But to speake of men free from passion and who vse to reflect much vpon their owne thoughts euen in them their internall actions proceede frō a principle directed by a superior guide then their owne reason as appeare's by this that they know nothing of their owne thoughts but by reflection and the reflection is a distinct act from the former vpon which the reflectiō is made so that nether the reflectiō it self is alwaise made by voluntarie designe nor anie act which is made without reflection Besides considere I pray how few know by what verue their vnderstandings are made certaine of those principles and positiōs which they cannot doubt of or by what vertue they adhere so strongly to the conclusion of a sylogisme not one of a thousand who doe these things euerie day Wherefore t' is euidēt that euen in our spirituall actions not all that we doe is done by our proper vnderstāding that is with knowing reflection and designe and therefore the same man may euē in these intellectuall acts doe one thing and thinke he doth an other and diuers men may agree in what they doe and yet disagree in their opinions of what it is they doe And now to close with your difficultie seeing faith is a persuasion or an agreeing in some points by reason af authoritie All the Doctors of the Catholike church may agree in beleeuing that is in acting and practizing their faith in the same manner and yet be deuided in their speculations by which they seeke to determine what it is they doe And it is their doeings which make's them Christians and not their sayings for they liue and beleeue as Christians but speake and deliuer their opinions as Doctors which be qualities farr different from being a Christian And doe you not see that these Doctors belieue after their speculations and framing of their opinions as they did before they thought of or studied this difficultie Nephew I doe not doubt but they doe for the faith of all Christians must needes be the same and consequently all must goe vpon the same motiue though one may vnderstand better and apprehende deeper that motiue then an other doth Vncle. You saie well Considere then that when these Doctors were yong men and had not yet studied Diuinitie and you shall finde that they had no other motiue of their belife but the authoritie of the present church and therefore how soeuer they discourse learnedly in their bookes the conclusion must be in their liues to rest vpon the authoritie of the
shyne day to fit on And one should tell you that in the next sessions following they would decree it had beene a verie fowle day aÌ„d would commande vnder paine of death euerie man to belieue and professe foe Which though I thinke you will saie it were impossible they should make anie such decree yet would I know how you would goe about to proue it Would your not considere what force of feares of hopes were necessarie to induce one of these men to tell such a notorious lye whereby he were to hazard his conscience and reputation for euer and then increase and augment the difficultie by the multitude And farther would you not vrge that there were no such hopes or feares as were able to quell anie one or at least a were necessarie to ouerswaye them all considering that the same hopes or feares could not falle vpon such varietie of estates and humours as all these men were of And knowing certainely anie of these three you would assuredly pronunce the supposed assertion to be false For saie you such a force is necessarie to breake reason in this Congregation but such a force at this present cannot be had and therefore reason at this present cannot be broken in them In which discourse a Mathematician will tell you his demonstrations hang vpoÌ„ the verie same gimalls Wherefore as men cannot ordinarily demonstrate that one bodie cannot bee in two places nor two in one yet are we certaine there is a naturall demoÌ„stration for it and we are by nature assured of it So no doubt but there is a demonstration to him that liueth in London that there is a LondoÌ„ bridge and he is naturally certaine of it though he cannot frame the demonstration by articles and sylogismes as a true philosopher can doe for surely a philosopher if he will take paines may finde a demonstration for both Nephew I hartily thaÌ„ke you for this discourse both for the present subiect wherein you haue contented me beyond my expection as also because me thinke's I conceiue by it that there may be certaine knowledge not only in mathematikes but in all other sciences sithence there is so cleere and efficacious meanes of proceeding euen in morall matters which seeme the most mutable aÌ„d vncertaine of all and where I thought scarcely anie reason was to be expected Vncle. O! coseÌ„ though he was a great man that said Ars longa vita breuis yet he must giue me leaue to be his interpreter for t' is not the length of art but our not taking the right waie which make's it long otherwise art would be but a conuenient solace to our liues Would you thinke that a priuat man following the warres without helpe of others writings by his owne industrie should surpasse the greatest clarkes that haue pored double his time vpon bookes and Monsieur des Cartes this our age hath shewed in a french gentleman yet not only liuing but yong Nephew Me thinke's vncle it were a good worke and necessarie for the Christian world if your self or some other would take the paines to set downe the principles of our faith in forme of demonstration For that I conceiue would take awaie all controuersies and make all ChristiaÌ„s of one beliefe and Religion Vncle. You are a yong maÌ„ and conceiue's not the daiâ—tinesse of the pallates of this age they would not taste such rugged and bitter stuffe nay they caÌ„not disgest anie thing which is not sugered with quaint and pleasont iests Who would reade such a worke Who would haue the patience to studie it to comprehend it and make it his owne This verie discourse which hath passed betwixt you and me is so thornie and full of so manie chained consequences that were it publike few would carrie it away Let vs therefore coÌ„tent our selues to make it knowne to our owne acquaintance to whom vpon occasioÌ„ you may deliuer it by the waie of familiar discourse wherein peraduenture it will sauour better and profit more Nephew I pray leaue me not thus giue me at least some speciall light to answere such obiections as without doubt will be proposed when I shall deliuer your discourse to those who are better red then my self Wherefore least I should disgrace your learned lessons I pray tell me how §. 13 Some cheefe and short obiections may be solued VNcle I can not giue you a better rule theÌ„ to sticke to the churche's authoritie for Tradition and not to be easily beaten of by great names and words for if you considere that a Tradition or a point of faith deliuered by tradition is a point vniuersally preached and deliuered by the Apostles and imprinted in the harts of the Christian world And by an vniuersall beliefe and practise continued vnto our days whereof our warrant is no other then that we finde the present church in quiet possession of it and whereof no begining is knowne if this I saie you considere and sticke well to this appreheÌ„sioÌ„ you neede not feare anie obiection which can be made against you For you rely vpon the testimonie of the whole ChristiaÌ„ church you rely vpon the force of nature borne to continue froÌ„ father to child you rely vpon the promises of Iesus Christ of continuing his church vnto the end of the world And vpon the efficacitie of the Holy Ghost sent to performe it by whom Christ's law was written in Christians harts and so to be continued to the day of doome So that you see no human authoritie by which our Estates and liues are gouerned No proofes of courts or law which neuerthelesse are admitted as Iuges of those affaires which too manie God knowe's esteeme more weightie and important then Religion No consent of historie And in fine if what we haue said be true no demonstration better nor greater nor peraduenture equall On the other side you shall finde all obiectioÌ„s fall of their owne weaknesse As some doe obiect the Millenarie errour for a tradition whereof there is no certaintie nor consent of those who write of it whether it haue beene publickly preached by the Apostles or no And euen thence it is excluded from the nature of such tradition as we rely vpon Others finding diuers fathers agreeing in one opinion vrge them presently for or against tradition As if fathers in their dayes were not priuat Doctors and might not be mistaken in some points as well as the Doctors of the present church T' is true we reuerence the fathers in manie titles aboue anie liuing Doctors yet euerie Catholike knowe's that diuers fathers haue some times light into the same error Wherefore you must note cosen that the fathers speake some times as witneses of what the church held in their days and some times as Doctors and so t' is often hard to distinguish how they deliuer their opinions because some times they presse scripture or raison as Doctors and some times to confirme a knowne truth So that who seeke's Tradition in the fathers and
to conuince it by their testimonie take's a hard taske vpon him if he goe rigorously to worke and haue a conning Criticke to his Aduersarie How so euer t' is not a thing fitting for ordinarie and vnlearned people but only for such as haue time at will and great reading and vnderstanding Nephew You haue manie Aduersaries in this opinion for generally men seeke tradition out of the fathers and thinke they haue found it when in euerie age they finde seuerall fathers of the same opinion Vncle. I intende not to detract from their labours who haue taken paines in this kinde for they are profitable and necessarie for the church of God and excellent testimonies of Tradition but I nether thinke it to be the bodie of Tradition but only an effect and consequent of it nor that the multitude of Christians whose faith is to be regulated by Tradition neede to haue recourse to those learned workes Wherefore although diuers fathers in the same or different ages be found to contradict some point whereof the present church is in quiet and immemorable possession their authorities ought not to preuaile nor are they sufficiēt to proue there was not euen in their days a contrarie Tradion For our faith being in some sort naturally grafted in the harts of Christians learned men may now and then mistake some points of it as well as the causes and effects of their owne nature it self according as I tould you but now And as in other points so euen in this to wit in the resolution of faith wherein as our Doctors seeme to differ now a days so might the fathers also And in particular S. Cypriā seeme's to thinke that the resolution of faith was to be made into scripture and not into Tradition though in deede he opposed not scripture to Tradition but to custome wich is a farr different thing the one relying vpon the doctrine of the Apostles the other vpon the authoritie of priuat Doctors And supposing he was mistaken it were no more thē what wee now see to consiste with the vnitie of the Church There is one obiection and but only one of moment and t' is that S. Augustin and Innocentius with their Councells held that the communion of Children Was necessarie for their saluatiō and their words seeme to be apparent But who looketh into other passages of the same Authors will finde that their words are metaphoricall and that their meaning is that the effect of sacramentall Communion to witt an incorporation into Christ's misticall bodie which is done by Baptisme is of necessitie for Children's saluation I remember not at this present anie other obiection of monent which may not be easily solued out of these principles Nephew I will suggest you one or two if you please The one of Communion vnder both kindes wherein our Aduersaries saie we leaue a knowne and practised tradition for manie ages The other concerning the bookes of scripture where they saie we accept of a new scripture or rule of faith without tradition Vncle. I did thinke cosen you could answere these your selfe For the first there is two parts of it The one that the B. Sacrament was giuen vnder both kindes ordinarily the other that some times it was giuen in one kynd only And Catholikes being in possessiō of both parts by tradition those that will proue that Catholikes goe against Tradition must proue that it was neuer administred vnder one kinde only which our Aduersaries nether goe about nor cā performe but ply only that part which is granted them to witt that ordinarily it was administred vnder both kindes For the second t' is not sufficient to shew that some haue doubted of this or that part of the Canon vnlesse they can proue that those who did not doubt were not a sufficient partie to make a Tradition frō the Apostles time And so you see it fall's into the question we mentioned before that some fathers or Doctors being of a contrarie minde breake not the force of tradition Nephew I am loath to leaue you vncle because me thinke's I am not sufficiently armed to answere all obiections And yet what soeuer I call to minde falle's into some of these conditions you require Vncle. Let me see how skillfull you are I will try how you can answere me to §. 14 The examples of Tradition which seeme to haue failed FIrst therefore betwixt Adā's being cast out of Paradise and the Deluge there are accoūted about two thousand yeares which according to the long liues men enioyed at that time made not fully three descēts and yet in Noy's time the forgetting of God's law was so great that a generall floud was necessarie for the clēsing of the world Sem was Noy's sonne and before his death both the Diuisions of Nations happened because of their pride against God And as most Historians thinke the selecting of Abram's familie into God's seruice the rest of the world hauing abādoned it Likewise what is become of all antien Religions the most part of them deliuered by Tradition they are all gone and rooted out So that plaine experience is against those fine discourses you approued so higly What answere would you make to this Nephew Marry I would deny it to be true I meane I would saie that God's law was not forgotten but neglected before the floud And the like at the building of Babell And for Abraham's time we know that Abimelech and Pharao and Melchisedech and others as Iob when soeuer he liued obserued God's law As for heathen Religions they were written in bookes for anie thing I know and therefore preiudice tradition no more then a written law and consequently belong not to this cōtrouersie And thus I thinke I should quitte my self wel enough Vncle. Soone enough at least but let vs see if it be with as good speede as much haste For suppose they should reply that the neglect of God's law must of necessitie breede obliuion and therefore that ether God's law was forgottē or shortly would haue beene if the punishement of the Deluge had not preuēted it And for the men you cite of Abraham's time they were but few and though in that time God's law had yet some litle force looke but into Mose's time and you shall see all ouerrūne with Idolatrie For Heathen Religions t' is said of the Druides that their Ceremonies were not written but deliuered by memorie in verse from the Elder to the yonger and so conserued And the Histories of the welch ād Irish seeme to haue beene conserued in the like manner by the Bardes which how full of fables they were euerie man knowe's So that these things seeme sufficient to discredit Tradition Nephew I must intreat your helping hand to fasten me vpō this shaking flore otherwise I perceiue I am to weake to stand of my self Vncle. T' is not the flore you stand vpon but the want of confidence which make's you so vnsteadfast For tell me I pray if you remember whereon rely's