Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

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christian_n	church_n	member_n	visible_a	6,329	5	9.5436	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A93883	An Ansvver to a libell intituled, A coole conference betweene the cleered Reformation and the apologeticall narration; brought together by a wel-willer to both; wherein are cleerely refuted what ever he bringeth against the Reformation cleared, most humbly submitted to the judgement of the honourable Houses of Parliament, the most learned and reverend divines of the assembly, and all the reformed churches. By Adam Steuart.	Steuart, Adam.	1644 (1644)	Wing S5489; Thomason E43_4; ESTC R11438	39,008	70

Anonymus Pamphleter peradventure some Anabaptist peradventure some Don̄a Catherina it may be of purpose put upon the Stage to make them ridiculous if they should acknowledge such inconsiderable persons as a considerable party Besides this I told them that I thought the Author of the Booke was a man very ill-bred and imprudent and that for many reasons and among the rest First because he being as it seemeth but a private man he will needs be begging of a quarrell with the Scotch Commissioners who never offended him nor for any thing that appeareth knew not whether hee was inverum natura or not Secondly and if he pretend that they offended some of his Sect viz. the five Authors of the Apologeticall Narration then seemes he yet unwiser then I tooke him to be esteeming so highly of himselfe as if he were abler to answer for them then they for themselves so judge not wise men much lesse this wise Parliament for then haply it had made choice of him to have beene a Member of the Assembly which yet it did not Thirdly they are of age very able men according to all wise mens judgment and therefore it seemeth more fit that they answer for themselves and so much rather because neither they depend of him nor he of them nor any of them one from another or all or any of them from any superiour Ecclesiasticall power but every one of them standeth for himselfe And finally if they had offended those five venerable persons or their Sect in apologizing for the Government of all the Orthodox Churches and namely that of Scotland whereof they be Commissioners howsoever no offence appeareth 1. yet offended they them not in particular 2. Neither tooke they them directly for parties 3. Or their Apologeticall Narration formally to refute no more then they five tooke the foure Commissioners for their formall party or the Discipline of the Orthodox Churches or that of Scotland formally to refute If this Anonymus Divine had imitated the prudence of either of them hee would have appeared wiser then now he doth neither should his Booke needed to have beene suppressed as it is in nature of an infamous Libell Hereupon I was desired to set upon the worke my selfe Whereunto I answered that hardly could I doe it not knowing who was the Author of it or of what Sect or Sex he might be They taking this my answer for a merriment which I gave them in good earnest replyed That it could not be a woman fince the Independents permit not them to write Bookes but this satisfied not at all for howsoever the Quinqu ' Ecclesian Ministers admit them not to judge of controversies in Doctrine or in Ecclesiasticall censures yet is it but a particular opinion of those five and of some others and however they admit them not to such acts yet may it be doubted whether they permit them not to write Bookes of Divinity Afterwards they would willingly have perswaded mee that it was no Anabaptist since he was an Independent and disclaimed them and spoke contemptuously of them But that proved no more satisfactory then the rest 1. For howsoever all Independenters be not Anabaptists yet all Anabaptists all Sectaries and Heretickes at this present about London pretend to bee Independents 2. That the Anabaptists here in London for the most part agree with them in all things save onely in delaying of Baptisme till the time that the parties to be baptized be of age sufficient to give an account of their faith and in re-baptizing such as are baptized in all other Churches save those of their owne Sect as I have heard of themselves 3. Sundry of the Independents also hold them for very good men as they declare to the people in their Sermons what ever they write to the contrary 4. Many of them also hold the Anabaptist errour very tolerable which is it may be the cause that so many daily fall away from Independency to Anabaptisme and that not without just cause for if the Independents stand to their owne principles and hold no men to bee Members of Christs Church or visible Christians till they be able to give account of their faith and of the motions of grace that they feele within themselves what need they to Christen those that are not visible Christians Wherefore delay they not Baptisme as the Anabaptists and that so much the more since they refuse it to some of the children of those of their owne Sect. However they esteeme their parents to bee very godly and that onely because they were not churched or received into Church Covenant with them before their death Some other reasons were alledged which here I omit To bee short I was entreated againe to answer the Booke which I promised to doe if the Author could bee discovered whereupon they did what they could so did I also but could not certainly discover him In fine I suffered my selfe for some particular reasons to be perswaded by them Onely before I enter the lists with him since the Author will needs march under a veyle and conceale himselfe I shall pray the Christian Reader and him both to excuse me if without any respect to his person I refute his Booke as it deserveth Whatever he be for feare lest good men bee deceived under pretext of his pretended piety with so many of his Abs and deare Brethren I pray them to observe in him or at least in his Booke his great weaknesse yea if I may by his permission say it his great wickednesse in these points following 1. He would make the world beleeve that the Scots Commissioners acknowledge some defects and errors in their Discipline p. 1. which against the knowne light of their conscience they will not reforme 2. Hee falsifieth the Covenant in adding some words to it which corrupt the sense p. 1.3 And that to extenuate his perjurie inferres cleering and expressing those equivocations and mentall reservations which before he concealed p. 4. he denieth that the Synod gave any thankes to the Scots Commissioners for their Reply to the Apologetical Narration or rather for the cleared Reformation p. 3. which I submit to the Synods judgement whether there be not an Act of theirs to the contrary of what he saith in this point He will perswade the Reader that the Synod only voyced them thanks for a two penny Booke which they gave them as if that grave Assembly had nothing else to doe I might note many more untruths if he had had any prudence he might have learned the contrary either in the City or at Westminster Hal but the Scripture must be true The labour of the foolish wearieth every one of them Ecclesiast 10.15 because he knoweth not how to goe to the City Prov. 12.13 The wicked is snared by the transgression of his mouth And this I pray the Reader to examine and not to suffer himselfe to be misse-led by any prejudicate opinion of his apparent pietie his smooth style with

they come to maturitie Yet as if in revenge you ding the words of Separation and Brownists against the Apologists as if you had forgotten or di● intend to misapply what you had said in the next line afore quoted out of Hierome Answ Te frustra Augurium vani docuere parentes Sir you are no good Diviner for it is not the Apologists but the Brownists whom they call the Separation as appeareth most expresly by their own words The Seperation may be well allowed to be called Brownists This therefore is but a meere calumny that ye pin upon them to the end that thereupon ye may bewaile and lament your condition and great oppression before the people which take your words upon credit but the more to blame a great deale you are that so ordinarily deceive their easie credulitie And truly if ye could quit this kinde of reasoning the rest of the matter you stuffe your Booke with would be found very weake And yet I must say of my selfe what elsewhere I have ever said that ye are really Separatists since ye separate your selves from the Sacramentall communion of all other Orthodox Churches esteeming them unworthy of your Communion So by this time any one may see they want not memory in what they say but you judgement to understand them or honestie at least to relate faithfully what they say Having so dealt with them for want of some other Encomiast he setteth forth the praises of his own vertues viz. his great patience and mercy towards them Were it not for patience nay that would hardly doe it were it not for reverence of you and your Nation a home answer would be shaped to such a mishapen misprision But to love is to live Answ 1. Your patience Sir is very weak yea scarcely in gradu continentiae since it can hardly so command your choler and desire of revenge against a pretended and so imaginarie an offence 2. So surely must be your other vertues and consequently your Reverence for there is a necessary connexion betwixt them all at least in gradu temperantiae under the which they cannot absolutely have the name of vertues 3. Reverence is a vertue whereby we give honour to vertuous persons and feare to offend them because of their vertues merits or dignitie If so I pray what Reverence is it so to calumniate them as you have done 4. Or if they be such as you have represented them to be then can they not be the object of Reverence and so this your Reverence is no reall vertue 5. As for the Reverence ye carry to our Nation I will but put you in minde of the good esteeme you have of it as being very windy and unluckie for English men Your words are Who can hinder the winds if they blow and bring black weather out of the North or West If it be such it cannot be thought worthy of any Reverence so this you say here cannot be said but in derision of it unlesse you be content to give a lye to your selfe But what ever be your judgement of your own Nation or of ours We thank God that they have such esteeme one of another that you cannot much further or hinder it As for my selfe what Erasmus Roterodamus saith of his Holland that I may apply to our Scotland Terra mihi semper celebranda veneranda ut cui vitae hujus initia debeam atque utinam illi nos tam possimus honestamento viciss●m esse quam illa nobis non est poenitenda Our Country Sir is an honour to us both I pray God none of us be a dishonour to our Countrey And as for you I may say that when your Countrey and the Church of God therein as many of your Countrey-men very good Christians and Patriots say had most need of you ye left it and neglected it and at this present when it standeth in no need at all of you ye returne againe unsent for to vexe the Church of God and to hinder Reformation in it 6. I answer in matters of so high importance so holy men as ye pretend to be should make no distinction of persons nor distinguish betwixt the Greek and the Schythian all should be to you one in Christ To love indeed is to live if your love be such as it should be but sometimes amantes sunt amentes and their love is rather a dreame then reall when they dote more upon their owne fancies more then upon truth Credimus an qui amant ●n qui sibi somnia fingunt He addeth that we must not set our houses on fire to rost our own egges Answ Who doth it now in matter of Religion but the Independenters Vestrorum causa malorum vos estis P. 8. § 1. We are glad that as ye disavow the rest so ye do this that ye intended not to touch the Church of Scotland in saying that ye had no Commonwealths to reare Only this we say that if ye say true that then it was impertinently put in And as ye say it might better bee understood of those of New England who had the Kings Patent for what they did in Policy as Gods Word for Church Government Onely here I observe that you acknowledge the King and his Patent onely in Policy and Gods Word onely in Church government Now I pray then what more give ye to the Civill Magistrate then other Reformed Churches in the point of Church Government And as for Policy no Reformed Churches ever medled with it that I know of P. 8. § 3. If ye thought it not a blessing of God or some good worthy of thanksgiving not to bee engaged by education or other wayes to any other of the Reformed Churches This discourse must be very impertinent in bringing this for a reason that your Discipline is good or better then that of all other Reformed Churches for afterwards yee bring your selves in as spectators of all Churches and Disciplines being of none your selves but in abstractione pracisionis Neither say the Commissioners absolutely that the Apologists were left to their owne private thoughts to bee moved by but ex hypothesi that they were not engaged to other Churches and truly no reasonable man can thinke but they were so since they say that in looking upon all Governments they were simple spectators so that this Doctor for this extravagant sense so repugnant to the text may be thought to have beene Graduate at Orleans And since this Well-willer his profession is to live to love the Commissioners I shall onely note by the way what a rare and curious expression he has found out to declare it by viz. that they are men of a better spirit then the venemous Spider of envy They are bound to thanke you Mr. Doctor of well-willing for this pretty complement ye passe upon them P. 9. § 3. As in all the rest of his Booke so here he goeth very cunningly to worke evermore omitting what is most materiall in the Commissioners Booke Hee