is writen also in the holy Gospell that in an other Councell and consultation of the Iewes wherein they sought vniustly to condemne the iust when Iesus being asked whether he were Christ the sonne of God confessed him selfe to be so Caiphas the hye priest saide hee hath blasphemed what neede we witnesses any further behold now you haue heard his blasphemie Was this spéeche of Caiphas a prophecie or an errour Hart. What if it were an errour Rainoldes How sée you not then that Caiphas did not prophecie by priuilege of his office For so he should haue prophecied in this Councell too in which he sate as hye Priest hée spake as hye Priest and to him as hye Priest the Councell did assent in giuing sentence against Christ. But that amongst many mischiefes and falshoodes he spake the wordes of truth once in a sense not which he meant for he meant wickedly but which his spéeche yéelded there was a worke of God in it Who hauing sent his sonne a sauiour to the Iewes as he stirred them vp to know him and receiue him by Angels by wonders by voyces from heauen by wise men from the east a prophetisse in the temple Iohn Baptist in the wildernes by men women childreÌ„ all sortes of persons yea by the diuels them selues so he made the hye Priest to beare witnesse of him by giuing out an Oâ—â—cle vnder doutfull wordes to make the Iewes more vnexcusable that by his owne mouth the naughtie seruant might be iudged Wherefore not the ordinarie priuilege of office but an extraordinarie motion of God did guide the tongue of Caiphas to prophecie of Christ as he opened the mouth of the asse of Balaam to reproue her maister And you who would gather an ordinarie priuilege of the Popes office by that extraordinarie prophecying of Caiphas doo make a like reason as if you should conclude that the Popes horse can speake because that Balaams asse did Nay you might conclude this on greater reason For Balaams asse spake twise Caiphas prophecied but once Hart. Your similitude is odious I maruell why you vse such Rainoldes Because your reason is absurd I would faine haue you see it Hart. Absurd He that should call it absurd in our schooles would be thought him selfe absurd For it is grounded vpon a proportion betwixt the hie Priest and the Pope the Church of the Iewes and of the Christians Rainoldes Then by a reason of proportion belike the Pope condemneth Christ as Caiphas did and vexeth Christians as Annas Doo you allowe hereof in your schooles also Hart. Yet againe I see you will neuer leaue these odious comparisons The Pope to Caiphas and Annas Rainoldes You are a straunge man who go about to proue by the example of Caiphas that the Pope can not erre in office and are angrie with me for touching the weakenes of your reason therein Hart. Wel. I graunt that Caiphas had not that priuilege For it was not promised to the hie Priestes of the Iewish Church but till the comming of Christ at which time the Prophets shewed that it should faile them For Ieremie saith thereof In that day the heart of the king shall perish and the heart of the Princes and the Priestes shal be astonished And Ezekiel more plainely The law shall perish from the Priest counsell from the Elders But till that time they had it and did teach the truth according to the law and were to be obeied in all things which they taught Rainoldes Yea What say you then of Vrias who was hie Priest vnder king Achaz sixe hundred yeares before Christ He ceased to sacrifice on the altar of God appointed by the law and hauing made a new one like to the altar of Damascus he sacrificed vpon it Whereby he defiled himselfe and the land with rebellion against the Lord. Hart. I say that Vrias did erre in doing so But we may refute this reason of yours by denying that Vrias did succede Aaron and was of the tribe of Leui. Rainoldes In déede a Cardinall answereth that you may refute it so in one word And that is shewed plainelye enough as he saith by those wordes of scripture which are writen of Ieroboam He made Chapels in hie places and Priestes of the lowest of the people who were not of the sonnes of Leui. But this refutation is as fitte against our reason of Vrias as if a maÌ„ should say that Bishops in England are not Protestants because the Bishops of Fraunce are Papistes For the Priestes which Ieroboam made of the lowest of the people not of the sonnes of Leui were in the kingdome of Israel at Bethel and Dan and Vrias was Priest in the temple at Ierusalem in the kingdome of Iuda The thing is apparant by the very course and text of the scripture And they who would saue the Priesthood most gladly from the shamefull staine agree that he was hie Priest the successour of Aaron Hart. Let it be admitted that he was so The staine of his fault is not so foule as you make it For what did he els but that which we reade Pope Marcellinê° to haue done Who in the horrible persecution of Christians vnder Maximian and Diocletian took incense for feare and offered it to Idols Vrias did transgresse the law of God not wilfully but through the frailtie of the flesh not of his own accord but by the kings commaundement Wherfore it came rather of feare then of rashnes or ignorance that hee offended Rainoldes So did it in Peter that he denied Christ. And may you therefore say that Peter was priuileged not to denie Christ I maruell that you feele not the grossenes of your dealing You say that hie Priestes are priuileged by their office to perseuere in true doctrine It is shewed that they fall to manifest Idolatrie You graunt they do so but they do it for feare you say Where is the priuilege then For God to whom so euer he giueth any benefit as it were by priuilege hee giueth them a priuilege withall of speciall fauour to frée them from the lettes that might debarre them of the benefit Ezekias was sicke of a pestilent disease whereof he should haue died God did adde fifteene yeares to his life He tooke away his sickenes that he might enioy it S. Paule was in daunger to be lost with shipwracke and all the rest who sailed with him God did giue to him his owne life and theirs He kept them all from danger and brought them safe vnto the land Wherefore if God had giuen a priuilege of true doctrine to the hie Priestes hee woulde haue giuen them a priuilege of grace too that no deceit of fleshe should make them fall away from it But they might fall away from it by sundry meanes to errour yea to Idolatrie For if they might for feare why not for loue also as Salomon did If for loue
and loosing giuen Peter as though after Peter it were proper to the Pope Denys saith the contrarie that it is common to all Bishops Whereby you may perceiue beside that if the title which he giueth Peter did proue his supremacie though I haue shewed it doth not but if it did yet your commoÌ„ reason from Peters supremacie to the Popes is iointlesse For he who calleth Peter chiefe of the Apostles yet maketh Bishops equal and giueth Rome no greater priuilege then Antioche or Ierusalem But to knit vp that which brought vs vnto this of Denys you sée that your Rhemists tale of the assumption of the blessed virgin is contrarie to the scriptures Yet they doo beléeue it for the authoritie of Fathers That I might dout iustly whether you would beléeue the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of errour by the scriptures Hart. I cannot beléeue that the scriptures are against it For the Church doth holde it I meane the Catholike Church of Rome Rainoldes In that your Rhemists lauish too For though the lying Greekes as your Molanus calleth them doo vouch it very boldly yet the Latin writers do say it is vncertaine Yea the verie Martyrologe of the Roman Church affirmeth that the Church celebrateth the memory of S. Maries death but where it hath pleased God to hide her body the Churches sobrietie hath chosen rather to be ignorant therof religiously then to holde and teach some friuolous thing forged How much the more shamefull is the misdemeanor first of a Papist who saith that it is certaine she was assumpted by death not onely in soule but in body also then of the Pope who setting foorth his new Portesse saith that those things which are vncertaine are put out where this is left in which they can not denie themselues to be vncertaine But your Rhemists passe Who as though the Porâ—esse were not bolde enough in alleaging Damascene though it mende his tale with more then one lye they take that which their Portesse doth tell them lye and al and father it vpon S. Denys that it may haue the greater credit Hart. Our Rhemists will render good account I dout not of this which they haue writen when they shall heare what is said against it And that which you declared out of the holy scriptures concerning the time of S. Denys conuersion which is the greatest argument that you brought yet to disproue the storie auouched of his preseÌ„ce at the departure of our Lady I must referre to them For I my selfe know not indéede how to accord it But why do you presse that point about the Fathers touching their ouerseeing ether the wordes or meaning or consequent of the scriptures We are past the scriptures and proofes that the Fathers do gather out of them Rainoldes But if they may gather amisse out of the scriptures and ouershoote them selues in the word of God they may be deceiued in the word of man too and either not conceiue well or not remember well or not conclude well of it Which hapned to S. Ierom in that same point that I reproued a litle rather in Eusebius For he reckning Philo the Iew amongst the Christian ecclesiastical writers doth it he saith for this reason because Philo writing a booke touching the first Church planted by the Euangelist S. Mark in Alexandria hath praised the Christians reporting them to be not onely there but in many countries and calling their dwelling places Monasteries Whereby it is apparant that the Church of beleeuers in Christ at the first was such as moonkes endeuour and seeke to be now that nothing is any mans owne in proprietie none is rich amongst them none poore their patrimonies are distributed to the needy they giue them selues wholy to prayer and to singing of Psalmes and to learning and to continencie of life such as S. Luke also doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem And this booke of Philo touching the life of our men that is of men Apostolike is entitled of the contemplatiue life of men that pray because they did contemplate studie and meditate heauenly things and prayed to God alwayes Thus farre S. Ierom. Wherein that the pointes of contemplation and prayer being somewhat like in them whom Philo wrote off and in the Christian Church did make him to mistake the one for the other as likenes they say is the mother of error but that they were not Christians whom Philo meant in that booke it may appeere by foure circumstances of names of deedes of times and of places For they of whom Philo doth write were called Essees which was a sect of Iewes of whom some liued in action and some in contemplation The Christians were neuer knowne by name of Essees either contemplatiue or actiue Againe they in Philo did leaue their goods and substance to their sonnes or daughters or kinsemen or if they had no kinsemen to their friendes The Christians gaue them to the poore and such as stood in need of succour Moreouer the solemne day which they in Philo did meete together publikely to heare the word of God taught was the seuenth day of the weeke which was the Sabbat of the Iewes the saterday as we cal it The Christians were wont to meete on the first day of the weeke that is sonday the Lordes day as S. Iohn termeth it Finally they whom Philo discourseth of did liue in no towne or citie but without in gardens and solitarie places The Christians liued in cities Euen they who are namely mentioned by Ierom I meane the Christian Church placed by S. Marke in Alexandria were planted in the citie Alexandria it selfe whereas it is precisely noted by Philo that his Iewish moonkes did dwell about it and without it Wherefore it is manifest that Ierom did mistake or had forgot the wordes of Philo. Howbeit if he had both well conceiued and remembred them yet he thereof inferred amisse that the moonkes in his time were such as S. Luke doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem For the beleeuers at Ierusalem might keepe their owne if they listed as Peter saith to Ananias while it remained perteined it not to thee And when it was sold was it not in thine own power But Ierom saith that his moonks may not haue proprietie in any thing of their owne Beside the moonkes of Ierom did liue in continencie The beléeuers at Ierusalem had wiues vsed them for any thing that S. Luke sheweth Though by the way to note the difference betwéene the Iewish moonkes the Christian who els would be too like some of the Christian moonks in Ieroms time had wiues did beget childreÌ„ which I haue not read that anie of the Iewish did Last of all the moonkes whom Ierom doth meane as he must néedes by Philo were moonkes according to their
Grecians idols your pilgrimage to Saintes images where they are most famous as our Ladie of Lauretto like Diana of Ephesus with infinit such other fansies doo resemble liuely the Heathnish rites of Paganisme and grew by likelyhood from the Heathens But I because the temple of Salomon had images although not of men the Leuites had shauing although not of crownes the tabernacle had lightes although not in the day time much lesse at the beginning of Februarie more then other times did speake of your Popish rites herein as Iewish to make the best of them And for all the difference that you find betwixt them of waxe in yours and oyle in theirs and their perfume and your frankincense though frankincense was mingled with their perfume also and made an incense too without it but granting this difference betwixt them to the vttermost yet are yours Iewish in the kinde thereof because they are shadowes such as were the Iewish And it is likely that they who deuised them did fetch them out of Moses as they who defend them doo ground them vpon Moses For the fairest colour that eyther Bishop Durand or others set vpon them is that God ordeined them in Moses law As Pope Innocentius saith that the Catholike Church doth holde that Bishops ought to be anointed because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint Aaron and his sonnes and againe that temples and altars and chalices ought to be anointed because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint the tabernacle and arke and table with the vessels Hart. But Pope Innocentius addeth that the sacrament of vnction or anointing doth figure and worke an other thing in the new testament then it did in the old And thereof he concludeth that they lye who charge the Church with Iudaizing that is with doing as the Iewes did in that it celebrateth the sacrament of vnction Rainoldes Yet Pope Innocentius doth not bring that difference betwene the Iewes and you that your holy vnction is made of oyle and balme where theirs was made of oyle myrrhe with other spices He knew that the difference of this or that ingredient in the stuffe of it would not cléere your Church from Iudaizing in the kinde of the purgation that is the rite whereby you sanctifie Priests and altars No more then if you should sacrifice a dogge and say that you doo not therein as the Iewes did because they did sacrifice not dogges but shéepe oxen As for the difference by which the Pope seuereth your vnctiō from theirs that yours doth worke and figure an other thing then theirs did first it wrought as much in their altars as in yours for any thing that I know Secondly it figured in their Priests the giftes of the holy ghost which he saith it doth in yours Thirdly were it so that it had an other either worke or meaning with you then with them as after a sort it hath both in respect of him who ordered theirs and the cause why yet might the ceremonie be Iewish notwithstanding For I trust you will not maintaine but it were Iudaisme for your Church to sacrifice a lambe in burnt offering though you did it to signifie not Christ that was to come as the Iewes did but that Christ is come and hath by his passion both entred in himselfe and brought in others to his glorie At the least S. Peter did constraine the Gentiles to Iudaize as you terme it when they were induced by his example and autoritie to allow the Iewish rite in choise of meates Yet neither he nor they allowed it in that meaning which it was giuen to the Iewes in For it was giuen them to betoken that holines and traine them vp vnto it which Christ by his grace should bring to the faithfull And Peter knew that Christ had doon this in truth and taken away that figure yea the whole yoke of the law of Moses which point he taught the Gentiles also Wherefore although your Church doo kéepe the Iewish rites with an other meaning then God ordeined them for the Iewes as Pope Innocentius saith to salue that blister yet this of Peter sheweth that the thing is Iewish and you doo Iudaize who kéepe them Hart. S. Peter did not erre in faith but in behauiour when he withdrew him selfe from eating with the Gentiles For that was a defaute in conuersation not in doctrine as Tertullian saith Neither doth S. Austin thinke otherwise of it Rainoldes I graunt For he offended not in the truth of the gospel but in walking according to it that hauing liued before not as the Iewes but Gentile-like yet then hee left the Gentiles for feare of the Iewes and dissembled his iudgement touching that point of Christian doctrine But this doth so much more conuince both your Church of Iudaizing in her ceremonies and your doctrine of corrupting the gospell with that leauen For if S. Peter was to be condemned as causing them to Iudaize whom through infirmitie he drew by example to play the Iewes in one rite what may your Church be thought of which of setled iudgement doth moue and force Christians to play the Iewes in so many And he did acknowledge the truth of the doctrine by silence and submission when S. Paul reproued him But Pope Innocentius saith that they lye who touch your Church for it Wherefore the Pope or rather the Popes and Papists all who maintaine the doctrine of the Trent-Councell approuing both the rest of your Iewish rites and namely that of vnction confirmed out of Moses by Pope Innocentius they doo not offend as the true Apostle of Christ S. Peter did but as the false Apostles who troubled the Galatians and peruerted the gospell by mingling of the law with it Hart. Your wordes should haue some coolour of truth against the Church if we taught that men ought to be circumcised as did the false Apostles Rainoldes Why Shall no heretikes be counted false teachers in the Church of Christ vnlesse they teach in al point◠as did the false Prophets Hart. But as I haue shewed out of the Councell of Trent the ceremonies which we vse in the sacrifice of the Masse as namely mysticall blessinges lightes incense vestiments and many other such thinges came all not from the false but from the true Apostles And if there be any which they ordeined not that might be ordeined by our holy mother the Church As it was that some thinges should be pronounced in the Masse with a soft voice some thinges with a lowder For such is the nature of men that it can not bee lifted vp easily to the meditation of diuine thinges without outward helpes Which reason added by the Councel doth warrant all our rites both of the Churches ordinance and the Apostolike tradition against your cauils and surmises
the people may haue eyes and not reade them eares and not heare them In the which fact whither they shew them selues more disobedient to God or iniurious to the people it is hard to say sith God hath expresly commanded that all things must be doon to edifie that is to build vp and things not vnderstoode I trow build not vp no not the tower of Babylon But by this meanes the people can not heare the word of God publikely because he speaketh to them in an outlandish toong and a strange language Which thing the Lord laid on the Iewes for a punishment the Roman Church doth thrust it on Christians for a benefit Much lesse are they able priuately to reade it because they neither haue the scriptures translated into their mother toongs and many in the time of our predecessours were condemned as heretikes for reading part thereof which they had translated Wherefore sith the plentie of the word of God which it is a point of very heinous wickednes not to procure for Christians more heinous not to allow it them most heinous not to permit it them is not onely not permitted but hindered by the Church of Rome and hindered not onely by lawes but by fyer too I will not vse sharper wordes against her tyranny onely this I say that he must be impudent néedes who would deny that shée hath brought in a famin of the word The causes then of sicknesse are manifestly found in the Church of Rome both for the corruption and scarcitie of the foode of life Now such as the cause is such is the effect and out of bitter fountaines there issue bitter waters The lesse maruell is it that her effectes and functions bewray sore diseases such as must of likelihood procéede from such causes For a sound and whole Church the faculties and powers whereof are not impaired hath fower speciall functions as the scriptures shew namely to teach the faith to minister the sacraments to pray and practise discipline according to the word of God But neither is the faith of Christ purely taught nor sacraments rightly ministred nor prayers made religiously nor discipline duely practised by the Church of Rome The Church of Rome therefore is not whole and sound no more then was his daughter who said vnto Christ my daughter is at the point of death For to say a little of ech of these in order the summe of the doctrine of the Christian faith is the saluation of the faithfull by Iesus Christ the lambe of God Of the which saluation the beginning cometh from the grace of God the substance consisteth in the righteousnes of God the end is referred to the glory of God by the holy scriptures This holy religion which maketh God all in all for our saluation giuing the whole to him and taking it from men that we may trust not in flesh but in the Lord onely dooth sauour of Christian modestie too much it contenteth not the Roman pride and arrogancy And therefore as Prometheus in the Greeke fables is said to haue allotted part of a sacrifice to Iupiter part to him selfe euen so the Prometheus of the Popish Church in the Roman faith assigneth and referreth the beginning of our saluation in part to Gods grace in part to the power of nature the substance of our saluation in part to Gods righteousnes in part to mans merits the end of our saluation in part to Gods glory in part to the honour and woorship of creatures Neither is this doon by some one Prometheus or Epimetheus rather but by the whole company of the Epimetheans euen the Councell of Trent though closely sometimes to couer their deceit with darknes yet so that their expositours bring their hidden meanings out into the light For first and formost they will haue the naturall power and abilitie of their owne will free-will they terme it to be concurrent as they speake with the grace of God that is a party-worker with it as if God did onely reléeue the will béeing weake and raise it vp being faint not renue it being corrupted and repaire it being perished Besides they imagine that infidels and faithlesse men doo certaine workes they call them woorkes of preparation in which though being doon without faith they sinne not nay they procure the grace of God thereby So they bring to passe as much as lieth in them at least they indeuour what by the power of free-will what by their works of preparation that all be not attributed to the grace of God which grace is with them as Paul saith of himselfe but to the grace of God with them as those words of Paul are ill expressed in their translation that is some what to Gods grace and somewhat to their own merit at least as to a merit of meetenes and conueniency As for the righteousnes of God which is geuen vs in Christ while we are clensed from our sinnes and acquitted as righteous before Gods iudgement-seate by the sacrifice of Christ offered for the faithfull and the obedience of Christ imputed to the faithfull they contemne this righteousnes yea and condemne it as hereticall In the stéede whereof as of a vaine righteousnes or at least to it as to a righteousnes vnperfit they put the righteousnes of men consisting of their own woorks and merites of woorthines woorkes and merites wrought by the grace of Christ they will say I graunt yet of their own woorkes and merites of woorthines as the Schoolemen name them that is to say the woorthines whereof doth deserue and merit euerlasting life That so they may enioy it not of gift but of duetie by their own merit not by Christes as triumphers not as suters not as beggers but as conquerors after the glorious vant of the Louan-diuinitie To that which purpose they doo not extenuate onely the worthines of the merites of Christ in so much that they supply the weaknes thereof with their own merits other mens with due workes and vndue with Masses Trentals Pardons Pilgrimages with treasures of the church with praiers of the Saints finally wit satisfactions while they are aliue and after death with paines to be endured in Purgatory but also they extoll and lift vp to the sky the woorthines of their own merites professing most proudly that they are able to doo the law of God perfitly and truely to merit euerlasting life yea to doo more then they are bound by Gods law euen workes as they terme them of supererogation thereby to help foolish virgins with their oyle And hence it commeth too that they doo no lesse extenuate their own sinnes then they extoll their own vertues neither make they onely veniall sinnes of mortall and change the commandementes of God into counsels but also deny concupiscence to be sinne acquitting fleshly lustes wherewith we being pricked doo rebell against
THE SVMME OF THE CONFERENCE BETWENE IOHN RAINOLDES AND IOHN HART TOVCHING THE HEAD AND THE FAITH OF THE CHVRCH Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures the ministerie of the Church the function of Priesthood the sacrifice of the Masse with other controuersies of religion but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouerment opened in the branches of Christes supreme soueraintie of Peters pretended the Popes vsurped the Princes lawfull Supremacie Penned by Iohn Rainoldes according to the notes set downe in writing by them both perused by Iohn Hart and after things supplied altered as he thought good allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them Whereto is annexed a Treatise intitled SIX CONCLVSIONS TOVCHING THE HOLIE SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH writen by Iohn Rainoldes With a defense of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein 1. Ioh. 4.1 Deerely beloued beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they be of God for many false Prophets are gone out into the world Londini impensis Geor. Bishop 1584 TO THE RIGHT Honorable the Lord Robert Dudley Earle of Leicester one of her Maiesties priuie Councell and Chauncellour of the Vniuersitie of Oxford grace and peace be multiplied THe beginning of Schooles and Vniuersities right Honorable in the Church of God doth shew that they were planted to bee nurseries of Prophets who being instructed in the truth of his word might deliuer it to men and lighten as starres the darkenesse of the world with the beames of it But it hath come to passe by deuises of the dragon whose taile drew the third part of the starres of heauen cast them to the earth that they haue bene turned into seminaries of false Prophets to maintaine errours and the power of darkenesse against the light and truth of Christ. The primitiue Church had experience hereof in them of the Synagogue of Libertines and Cyrenians who disputed with Steuen A lesson for the faithfull in the ages to folow that they should not thinke it strange or be dismayed if Schooles Vniuersities of men professing wisedome were possessed of folie and sought to peruert the straight wayes of the Lord. The consideration whereof as it was needefull for our predecessours when Rabbines of the Iewes Philosophers of the HeatheÌ„s Sorbonists amoÌ„g Christians being seduced themselues seduced others so haue the Seminaries of our English students erected by the Pope of late at Rome and Rhemes made it needeful also for vs at this day The more how much the nerer their dealings do come to those of the Synagogue of Libertines Cyrenians For as they defended the Iewish opinions receiued by tradition from their Fathers so do the Seminaries the Popish superstitions As they did pretend the care of religion of Moses and God the law the Temple so do the Seminaries of the Catholike faith the Scriptures and the Church As the meanes they vsed were sclanders of Steuen that he spake blasphemous wordes against the holy place and the law so do the Seminaries charge vs with reuolting from the holy Church and corrupting the Scriptures I am not worthie to be compared with the least of the seruants of God who liued at that time in which he powred the giftes of his holy spirit from heauen so aboundantly Howbeit as it pleased him to rayse Steuen to dispute with some of the Iewish Synagogue so hath he vouchsafed me of this fauour that I should be called to conferre with certaine of the Popish Seminaries Of whom one contented to proceede farther therin then the rest by writing not by word onely hath giuen occasion ofthis which here I publish Wherein how indifferently he hath bene dealt with himselfe hath declared My conscience for mine owne part beareth me witnesse that I haue endeuored to defend the cause of the same truth with the same purpose by the same principles grouÌ„ds that SteueÌ„ did Wishing from my hart if so it please God that it may preuaile more with English Papists then Steuens speech did with the Iewish Priests But ready by his grace to endure their spite ifthey hate me for telling them the truth as the Iewes did him Now sith Luke who penned the story of Steuen sent it to Theophilus most noble Theophilus I haue bene the bolder to present my conference vnto you right Honorable aduanced in state to be of the most noble in minde a Theophilus and louer of the truth Your benefites both publikely to our Vniuersitie in maintenance of our priuileges priuately to me ward a member thereof haue bound me to offer this testificatâ—on of a thankefull minde And sith it hath bene I know a greefe vnto you that the Popish Synagogue hath drawne proselytes thence I thought it most meete that the labours spent with one so withdrawne and printed to reclaime them who are gon if may bee or at least to stay them who are not gon should bring him the salue whom the sore had touched neerest Which moueth me withall to beseech your Honour that as you haue begoon so you will go forward in being carefull for our nurserie that they who haue the charge of husbanding it may fense it and dresse it faithfully and wisely that neither the wild boare of the forest nor other vermin may anoy it that the fruites of the trees therof may serue for meate the leaues for medicine through waters running out of the sanctuarie and the tree of life may grow in the middest of it as in the garden of Eden planted by the Lord. So shall you leaue a most worthie monument of a noble Theophilus the reward whereof shall folow from God who will render to euery man according to his workes the remeÌ„brance shall rest in the Christian Church and common wealth ofEngland to your eternall praise throughout all posteritie The Lord of his mercie blesse you with continuall increase of the graces of his holy spirite specially of that which hath the promise of this life and of the life to come to your endlesse comfort through Iesu Christ the Lord of life At London the eighteenth of Iuly 1584. Your Honours in Christ at commaundement Iohn Rainoldes Iohn Hart to the indifferent Reader BEhold gentle Reader the conference which thou hast so long looked for betweene M. Rainoldes and me at length ended as also it had beene more then twelue monethes since had not my selfe hindred the coÌ„ming of it foorth when it was nigh readie to be deliuered to the Printer For it is now aboue two yeares ago that the right honorable Syr Francis Walsingham as he had shewed me great fauour from the time that I was apprehended in graunting me libertie of conference at home first in mine owne countrie and afterwarde in prison so when the sentence of death was past vpon me hee ceased not still to offer me the
no more to Popes then to other Bishops 2 The Pope may erre in doctrine 3 not only as a priuate man but as Pope 4 yea preach false doctrine also For 5 â—he may be a theefe a robber a woolfe 6 and erre not in person only but in office too as it is proued in euery part of his office 7 with aunswere to the replie made against the proofes for the defense of him therein 8 The succession of Popes hath bene preuailed against by the gates of hell 9 and when the gates of hell preuailed not against them their rocke did argue foundnesse of faith not the supremacie Pag. 277. The eighth Chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and Fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may bee iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 nether the ancient Bishops of Rome them selues 6 nor any other Fathers doo proue the Popes supremacy Pag. 452. The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller and ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 ofEphesus of Chalcedon ofConstantinople eftsoones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie Pag. 652. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiectes in thinges spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it Pag. 669. The first Chapter 1 The occasion of the conference the circumstances and poyntes to be debated on 2 The ground of the first poynt touching the head of the Church Wherein how that title belongeth vnto Christ how it is giuen to the Pope and so what is meant by the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES You haue heard maister Hart from the Right honorable M. Secretarie Walsyngham the cause why he hath sent for me to come vnto you to conferre with you concerning matters of religion for the better informing of your conscience and iudgement In the which respect you signified vnto him your selfe to bee willing to conferre with any man so that you might be charitably and Christianly dealt withall Hart. In deede I did signifie so much to M. Secretarie neither am I vnwilling to do that I haue promised Howbeit I wish rather that if a conference be purposed the learned men of our side whome we haue many beyond sea might be sent for hether of riper yeares and sounder iudgement As for mée the condition of conference with you is somewhat vn-euen For I lie in prison and am adiudged to dye the closenesse of the one terror of the other doth dull a mans spirits and make him very vnfitte for study I neither am of great yeares nor euer was of great reading and yet of that which I haue read I haue forgotten much by reason of my long restraint I am destitute of bookes we are not permitted to haue any at all sauing the Bible onely You of the other side may haue bookes at will and you come fresh from the vniuersitie whereby you are the readier to vse them and alleage them These are great disaduantages for me to enter into conference with you Neuerthelesse I am content as I haue said to do it so that my wantes may be supplied with furniture of bookes such as I shall desire Rainoldes The learned men of your side it lyeth not in me to procure hether I would to God none of them had euer come from Rome with traiterous intente nay more then intent to moue rebellion against our Soueraine and arme the subiectes against the Prince It had fared better both with you and others who came from him that sent them Your imprisonment and daunger which hath hereon ensued I can more easily pittie then relieue I wish you were at libertie so that her highnes were satisfied whome you haue offended The condition of conference the which is offred you is not so vn-euen in deede as in shew For although I come fresh from the vniuersitie yet I come from one of those vniuersities wherin your selues report that few of vs do study and those few that study study but a few questions of this time onely and that so lightly that we be afeard to reason with common Catholikes or if we do reason the common sort of Catholikes are able to answere all our arguments and to say also more for vs then wee can say for our selues You of the other side haue béene brought vp in one of those Seminaries wherein all trueth is studied the maisters teach all trueth the schollers learne all truth the course of diuinitie which our students nay our Doctors and Readers can not tel almost what it meaneth is read ouer in foure years with so great exactnes that if a man follow his study diligently he may become a learned Diuine and take degree Yea besides the Lectures of positiue Diuinitie of Hebrue of controuersies of Cases of conscience the Lecture of Scholasticall Diuinitie alone wherein the whole bodie of perfit Theologie doth consist doth teach within the same foure yeares all the poyntes of Catholike faith in such sort that thereby the hearers come to vnderstand not only what is in the scriptures about a matter of faith but also whatsoeuer is in all the Tomes of Councels wrytings of Fathers volumes of Ecclesiastical histories or in any other Author worthie the reading Wherefore sith you haue heard this course of diuinitie and haue béene admitted to take degree therein vpon the hearing of it you may not alleage vnripenes of yeares or reading or iudgement especially against me before whome in time so long in place so incomparable you tooke degrée in diuinitie if yet our degrées may goe for degrées the Pope hauing depriued vs of them But you haue no bookes sauing the Bible onely You are it is likely the redier in that booke chiefly sith at Rhemes beside your priuat studie of it you were exercised in it dayly by reading ouer certaine Chapters wherein the hard places were all expounded the doubtes noted the controuersies which arise betwixt you and vs resolued the arguments which our side can bring vnto the contrarie perspicuously and fully answered So that with this armour you are the more strongly prepared against me who can be content to deale with you in conference by that booke alone as by the booke of all trueth Notwithstanding though
body and he alone performeth the dutie of an head vnto it by giuing it power of life of feeling of mouing and him hath God appointed to be the head to the Church and by him all the body furnished and knit togither by iointes and bandes encreaseth with the encreasing of God Hart. We graunt that Christ is properly the head of the church the principall and quickning head But this head is imperiall so to terme him and inuisible The Pope is a visible and ministeriall head yet in truth a head also For of the head there are two dueties the one to bee the fountaine out of the which there floweth life into the rest of the body the other to direct by his rule and power the outward functions of the body The former duety doth agree to God alone and Christ. The later to the seruice and ministery of men too Rainoldes This your answere of two heades doth stand with more reason then his who said that Christ and Christes vicar Peter and Peters successor the Pope are all but one head of the church Howbeit so to make a twofold head as you do by the variety of two dueties it is not to diuide but to rent a sunder the dueties of the head and to make the Pope a head imperiall rather then a ministeriall For by rule and power to direct either the inward or outward functions of the bodie is the chiefe and proper function of the head agréeing to that head alone that giueth power of life and féeling and mouing to the body Wherefore sith Christ hauing bound him selfe by his promise to be with vs vntill the end of the world doth giue this power vnto his church by the effectuall working of his holy spirite which doth quicken both the whole and euery member of his body they who do diuide the preeminence of this duety betwéene him and the Pope allotting to him the inward to the Pope the outward functions to be directed deserue to be attainted of treason against the Lord. For séeing that to exercise this rule and dominion is a prerogatiue royall and proper to the king of kings to giue it either in whole or in part to any subiect can not be a lesser offence then hie treason Hart. If you account this to be treason against the Lord and do attaint vs of it You must attaint him selfe of it who by his word hath brought vs to it For S. Paule comparing the church vnto a body to shew the sundry giftes of Christians and in their sundry giftes their seuerall dueties by the similitude of members doth mention a head amongst them The eâ—e cannot say vnto the hand I haue no neede of thee nor the head to the feete I haue no neede of you Here the name of head must by al likelyhood bee meant of the Pastor in respect of the flock But it cannot be meant of Christ. For he may say to vs I haue no neede of you and so he willeth vs also when we shal haue done all things that are coÌ„manded vs to say we are vnprofitable seruants It must be meant therefore of Peter in respect of the rest of the Apostles and by consequent of the Pope in respect of all Bishops Rainoldes If Paule had so meant it either of Peter or of the Pope he had a tongue of the learned he could easily haue so expounded it But in the applying of his similitude to his purpose he sheweth that he meant by the name of head them who had the greatest graces of Gods spirite by feete hands and eies them who not so great though greater some then other Hart. Them who had the greatest Nay the name of head doth shew it must be one and that one visible head which wée call a ministeriall head vnder Christ proportionable to the body of Christ I meane the Church Of the which visible and ministeriall head those wordes of S. Paule may bee truely verified The head cannot say to the feete I haue no neede of you Rainoldes Indeede if the Pope be signified by the head those words will fitte him well For Cardinall Poole discoursing on the same reason of the Popes supremacie doth make as him the head so kings to be the féete And it is true the Pope can not say to kings I haue no neede of you It would bée hard going for him if they were not But if because Saint Paule doth in that similitude mention a head therefore there must be one visible head proportionable to the body of Christ that is the Church then because S. Paule doth mention the féete there must bee néedes also two visible féete by the like proportion Now I would gladly know of you Maister Hart which you will make the two féete of your church The Emperour I trow must be the right foote The left who The king of Spaine What shall the French king do then It is well that the king of Scots is no member of it nor the king of Denmarke Marry we had newes of the king of Swethland that Iesuits had conuerted him Shal he be the left foote Or shall the king of Poleland set in a foote for it Or is the king of Boheme nearer it There is a king of Bungo too who is reported to protect your religion in his countries and likewise the Great Turke other princes of Mahomets sect they may be féete in time also But how many féete may this body haue May it haue sixe seauen eight may it haue twentie visible féete and may it not haue ten not foure not two may it haue but one visible head Hart. Cardinall Pole compareth kinges vnto féete not as though they were the lowest partes of the church for hée counteth them as speciall members though not heads but because the church in the course of her growth was last of all increased with them as with féete and so did make an end of growing Rainoldes Then in Saint Paules time the church had no féete but a head without them And what doth he meane to saye that the head could not speake to the feete when it had no féete to speake too Hart. Yes it had féete then but of an other sort For they who were of lower degrees and meaner giftes in the church of Christ are resembled to féete in comparison of others who were in those respects as hands and eies aboue them Rainoldes And do you thinke the church had but two such féete Or had it many hundreds For christians were growne long before to thousands and it is not likely the most of them were eyes and hands Hart. It had no doubt many But you must not racke the members of similitudes beyond the principall pointes whereto they are applied and meant For els you might infer too that the church must haue but two eies and two hands because a mans body to which S. Paule resembleth the church hath no more Rainoldes As you say Yet
this is the mould of your owne reason wherein you cast the church to haue one visible head proportionable to the body A fansy more proportionable to the limmes of Popery then to Saint Paules doctrine touching the body of Christ. For his drift and purpose therein is to shew that as a mans body is made of sundry members which are not all as excellent one as an other the hand as the head the foote as the hand yet they are ioined togither to care one for an other all to maintaine the bodie so the bodie of Christ that is to say the church consisteth of sundry Christians as members some of greater gifts and callings then some the Apostles then that teachers the teachers then the helpers yet al ioyned together to loue and serue one an other and kéepe the church in vnitie wherby it is manifest first that in naming the head he considereth it not as a head properly but onely as a principall member For so he applieth it naming all Christians members and calling them the bodie of Christ he putteth Christ to be the head Next that by the name of head so considered hée meaneth no one man but all the Apostles as them who were indued with the chéefest gifts and placed in the highest function UUherefore if that word be strained to the vttermost as far as by the text it may the proofe that it yeldeth will argue a preeminence of the Apostles in generall ouer the inferiour members of the church but no power of Peter ouer the rest of the Apostles much lesse of the Pope ouer his fellow-bishops Hart. Yet this it doth proue that the name of head is not so giuen vnto Christ but that it may be giuen vnto a mortall man also Not as a head properly you say but as a principall member And what said I els For I graunted that Christ is properly the head of the church the Pope improperly Yet you reproued me for it Rainoldes I reproued you not because you gaue the title of head vnto the Pope for hee should be a pastour of the church of Rome and pastours for their giftes aboue the members of their churches ought to be like heads though many of them be tailes as the prophet calleth them but because you named him head of the whole church and that in such sort as it is due to none but Christ. For though you graunted Christ to be the quickening head that is to say the fountaine whence there floweth life into the rest of the bodie yet you gaue the Pope this soueraintie of headship that he should direct by his rule and power the outward functions of the bodie Wherein as of the one side you debase the worthinesse of his gifts who giueth vs Pastors and Teachers in that you doe appoint them to guide onely the outward functions of his bodie whereas he hath giuen them to the ful perfiting of his Saintes so of the other side you detract somewhat from the soueraintie of Christ when you giue his seruants dominion to guide his church by rule and power whereas they are ordeined to the worke of the ministery Wherfore howsoeuer you alay the title which you giue the Pope and say you call him head not properly but improperly a ministeriall head yet you doe imply that in this improperly which can agrée to none but him that properly is a head a head that doeth quicken guide and moue the bodie Euen as in your Canon lawe it is said of Peter The Lord did commit the charge of preaching the truth vnto him principally to the intent that from him as it were from a certaine head he might powre abroad his gifts as it were into all the bodie Hart. These wordes that you reproue in the Canon lawe are the wordes of a man of singular wit and iudgement famous both for holinesse and learning Saint Leo an auncient father who did flourish aboue a thousand yeares ago Rainoldes They aâ—e the wordes I grant of an auncient a wittie a learned holie man but a man and that is more a Bishop of Rome Now men euen the holiest while they liue in the flesh haue some contagion of the flesh and learning may puffe vp as it did the Corinthians and the best wittes are soonest tainted with ambition yea Iames and Iohn the sonnes of thunder desired superioritie and Rome a great Citie did nourish great statelinesse and that euen in the Bishops of that Citie before Leo. So they louing preeminence as Diotrephes did tooke all occasions to get it and sought some colours to mainteine it Wherefore as one in Tully said to Hortensius when he immoderately praysed eloquence that hee would haue lift her vp into heauen that himselfe might haue gone vp with her as hauing greatest right vnto her so many Bishops of Rome and Leo not the least of them did lift vp Saint Peter with prayses to the skye that themselues might rise vp with him as being forsooth his heires The Epistles and Sermons of Leo haue manifest markes of this affection as to giue a taste of them The Lord did take Peter into the feloship of the indiuisible vnitie and Wee acknowledge the most singular care of the most blessed Peter for vs all in this that God hath loosed the deceites of all slaunderers and My writings be strengthened by the merite and authoritie of my Lorde most blessed Peter the Apostle and Peter hauing confirmed the iudgement of his See in decision of faith hath not suffered any thing amisse to be seene about any of your persons who haue labored with vs for the Catholike faith and We beseech you and aduise you to keepe the thinges decreed of vs through the inspiration of God the Apostle most blessed Peter If any thing be well done or decreed of vs if any thing bee obtained of Gods mercy by daily praiers it is to be ascribed to S. Peters workes and merites whose power doth liue and authoritie excell in his owne See and He was so plentifully watred of the fountaine of all graces that whereas he receiued many things alone yet nothing passeth ouer to any man but by him To be short Leo by his exaÌ„ple his successors after him are so full of such spéeches that in the common phrase of themselues and their Secretaries all thinges pertaining to the Popes were growne to be S. Peters their prerogatiue S. Peters right their dignitie Saint Peters honour their statelinesse S. Peters reuerence subiection to them subiection to S. Peter A message from them an embassage from S. Peter Things done in their presence done in S. Peters presence Landes and possessions giuen them giuen to S. Peter And when they would haue kingdomes Princes must get them for S. Peter Their territories and Lordships S.
and of one soule They all are one body sanctified by one spirit through the Sacrament of one baptisme knit to Christ by one faith to themselues in one loue to serue togither one Lord in one hope and expectation of one eternall blisse and glory So that of this vnitie whereof Peters state and nature is capable apply which you list vnto the wordes of Leo either vnitie of will as you seeme to do or vnity of grace as others answere for it or vnitie of glory which Christ did pray for also and some will like that better none of these doe reach vnto that maiestie which Leos wordes aspire to by giuing him the felowship of the indiuisible vnitie Yet God forbid that any man should suspect of him that he meant vnitie either of nature with God or of person with Christ. He hath deserued better then to be thought so euill off But that which in trueth may be said for him is that his meaning was as other-where him selfe doth open it that Christ did impart his name of rocke and foundation of the church to Peter Now some mist of fansie daisled his eyes or els he would neuer haue saide thereupon that Christ receyued Peter into the felowship of the indiuisible vnitie and that in such preeminence as he receyued none but him chiefly sith hée imparted his greater names and titles of Iesus of Christ of the light of the world one of them to some the rest to all his seruants neither did he giue his name of rocke to Peter or of foundation to Peter onely as shall appeare after But if yet you see not that Leo did outreach in making Peter as it were a felow-head a partie-rocke and the halfe-foundation of the Church with Christ behold a farther felowship wherein he ioyneth Peter as mate and partner with God a felowship of power God hath giuen to Peter a great and a wonderfull felowship of his power and if he would haue any thing to be common vnto other princes with him he neuer gaue but by him whatsoeuer he gaue to others Out of all controuersie these wordes do lift vp Peter vnto the felowship of that glory of which God is so iealous that he hath protested he will not giue it to any other he hath giuen it to Christ who is one with himselfe God of God light of light if any man presume to ioyne a mortall creature whomsoeuer as companion vnto Christ in it he robbeth Christ of his honor of the onely mediator betwéene God and man And what doth he els who saith as Leo doth that S. Peters care shineth ouer Bishops in that their slaunderers are defaced that Peters merit and autoritie doth strengthen the writings of his seruant against heretikes that Peter doth not suffer their persons to be stained who labour for the catholike faith that the Popes decrees are made by the inspiration of God and S. Peter that it must be imputed vnto S. Peters workes and merits if any thing be gotten of God by dayly prayers that nothing passeth ouer vnto the chiefest of the Church no not vnto any man from God but by S. Peter Let euery Christian hart whome the zeale of God hath giuen any warmth vnto and his Spirit wisedome be iudge betwéene you and vs whether that to yeald such power such authoritie such souerainetie and rule of the Church of Christ to any Saint in heauen be not an empairing of the maiestie dominion and soueraine authoritie of the king of Saints the holy one of Israel It gréeueth me to speake so much against Leo whose learning I doe loue and reuerence his auncient yeares But the Auncient of dayes is more auncient then he must be had in greater reuerence who taught young Elihu to reproue his auncients euen holy Iob amongst them and to say of them I will not accept the person of any neither will I giue titles vnto man for I may not giue titles If I should doe it a litle he that made me would take mee away UUherefore I doe fréely without curtesie of titles and accepting of persons professe that I mislike those hawtie spéeches in Leo and I thinke that the mysterie of iniquitie so wrought through his ambitious aduancing Peter that of the egges which he cherished two of the most venemous cokcatrices were bred that euer poysoned the church of Christ the one the Popes supremacie vsurping Princely power ouer the church and common-weale with breach of faith to God and man the other the worshipping of Saintes wherin that honour is giuen to creatures which ought to be giuen to the Creator onely One example may shew them both euen Hildebrand called Gregorie the seuenth in his Popedome who depriuing Henrie the Emperour of his Empire and discharging his subiects of their othe of allegiance pronounced sentence with such an inuocation of Peter as a true Christian would trēble to haue heard vsed to any but to God Incline thine eares ô blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles heare me thy seruant whom thou hast brought vp from mine infancy and hast preserued to this day from the handes of the vnrighteous who hate and vexe me for my fayth in thee Thou canst beare me witnesse best and the holy mother of Christ and thy brother Paule partaker with thee of martyrdome that I haue vndertaken the gouernmēt of the Papacie vnwillingly Not that I thought it robbery to clime into thy See lawfully but I had rather liue in pilgrimage thē occupie thy roome for fame and glorie only I doe confesse and good cause why that the charge of the Christiā people was committed and the power of binding loosing granted vnto me not through my desertes but by thy grace Trusting therefore on this assuraunce for the honour and sauegard of thy holy church in the name of God almightie the father the sonne and the holy Ghost I throwe downe King Henry the sonne of Henry sometime Emperour who hath laide handes too boldly and rashly vpon thy church from his imperiall and kingly gouernment and I absolue al Christians subiect to the Empire frō that othe by the which they are wont to beare faith alleagiance vnto true Kings Doe you sée to what iniquitie their pride abusing Peters name and claiming al by him hath puffed them vp To what vsurping ouer Emperours To what dishonouring of the Almightie But of this we shall haue fitter occasion to conferre when we come to the question of the worship of Saintes For the other to returne to the point which we haue in hand the name of head in that sense as it is made a conduit of the giftes of God to powre them abroad into al the body is onely due and proper vnto the Mediatour betwéene God man the Apostle of our profession our Sauiour Iesus Christ. When the right of this title
sustenance of his houshold must be the Scripture onely Which the light of reason will induce you too if you beléeue the former pointes For the Philosopher teacheth that we are nourished by the same thinges of which we do consist Then if we are begotten of Gods worde as seede the word as it is milke to nourish vs when we are young so must it nourish vs when we are grown as strong meat But if it were so that S. Austin had not had this opinion touching strong meat yet must he néedes haue it in that whereof we reason for there he speaketh of milke And he sayth that the rule of faith is receiued of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church to note the churches practise which in catechizing of her young ones taught them summarily the pointes of beléefe and the precepts of life So that the simplest Christians who had not read them selues the plainer places of the scriptures to learne the rule of faith yet knewe it by the catechisme wherin through the ministery of the church they learned it Now S. Austins catechisme hath nothing but the doctrine which Christians may sucke out of plainer places of the scriptures His rule of faith therefore deliuered in the plainer places of the scriptures is the same that the authoritye of the church deliuered In déede your newe Doctors in their Popish catechismes haue precepts of the church beside the precepts of the scriptures your church which nameth her selfe though vntruely the mother of al churches hath more then two brests a third out of the which shee powreth poyson with her milke Whereby through good vsage hauing killed her owne children shee claimeth our churches children to be hers as did the woman before Salomon And the whore hath got her atturneies of her minions which do not onely raile at vs for not acknowledging her to be our mother but also belye vs that we scoffe at and curse the very title of Holy mother the church But they whom God hath blessed with the spirite of wisedome as he did Salomon will easily discern that we are so far off from scoffing at and cursing that we giue the name of mother to the church with reuerence and ioy Marry the church of Rome to be called our holy mother which neither is holy nor our mother that our soules detest and wish that her stepmotherhood may be farre from vs. As for the rule offaith to which she layeth claime by her aduocate your Doctor pleading the title out of Austin that wee as acknowledging her child to be our sister may take her for our mother if we folow Salomon and rippe vp the plea with such a sword as he did we shall find that the child is neither hers nor her husbandes but the holy scriptures For Austin in saying the rule of faith is learned of plainer places of the Scriptures and of the authoritie of the church named the Scriptures as the matter the church as the minister wherof the rule of faith is learned Your Doctor supposing as wel the carpenter as the timber to be the stuffe whereof the house must be builded doth laye his axe to both togither and squaring them alike doth make him beames and postes and iuises some of the timber some of the carpenter Euen so the holy scripture is not the whole matter of the rule of faith whereof the church ministers as workemen and builders should frame the house of God but in part the church in part the scripture is the matter Both which being molten as were the earerings of the Israelites wrought in fashion by your craftesman not yéelding vnto it of weakenes as did Aaron but séeking after it with greedines as the people who knewe not what was become of Moses they will make a rule of faith not of Christes but of the Popes faith And this if it be decked with deuises to the eie as that was with gold and set foorth by men whose tongues are their owne and voices sweete to sing the song These be thy Gods ô Israel which brought thee out of the land of Egipt it will moue manye to daunse for ioy about it in as holy sort as the golden calfe did moue the Israelites to doo Hart. It doth not become you to scorne in this sort so graue and learned men as M.D. Stapleton and others whom you touch much lesse the church of Rome and least of al the Popes Holines Whose predecessors gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britannes and restored it afterward in the daies of the English And do you thus reward them for it You will make some men perhaps if you vse it to giue their iudgement of you with what spirite you do it Rainoldes If you will speake of him who gaue vs our faith you shall do well to lift vp your eies from dust and rottennesse and cast them somewhat higher Else although I will not condemne your spirite therefore yet I shall feare you doo not that honour to Gods Spirite which would beseeme a child of God for who is their father But to accept them as the giuers of it whose ministery God vsed in it first as it is doubted of the one side whether the Britannes had their first faith from Eleutherius it is more likely no so of the other side it is confessed that all the English had it not from Austin sent by Gregory Then if it were so we had it first from them yet we receiued it not from the Popes predecessors For as you take the name of Pope for supreme head and supreme head for that power which you haue defined there was no Pope at all when we receiued the faith The bratte was not yet borne when Gregory the first much lesse when Eleutherius was Bishop of Rome as our cōnference will shew Thirdly if they who were the predecessours of the Pope though not as Pope gaue vs our first faith the successors can not complaine they gaue it fréely they haue béene paid swéetely for it Your men to set them vp compare them to Balaam and the church to his asse In deede we must graunt our church hath béene the asse but your Balaam hath not refused to accept a house full of siluer and gold nay hee hath béene glad to sue for it too Last of all if they had giuen it vs fréely and plaid a kind mothers part neuerthelesse of mother transgressing as she hath done our father saith vnto vs Contend with your mother contend that she is not my wife neither am I her husband to the intent she may remoue her fornications out of her sight and her adulteries from betweene her breastes S. Paule was brought vp at the feete of Gamaliel Gamaliel a great Pharise Neither was he onely the scholer but the sonne of
persecution though they repented after refused to communicate with them and thereupon did separate themselues from the societie of the Catholike church and assemblies of the faithfull as vncleane also for that they receiued into their felowship and communion vpon repentaunce such as had fallen Against these Nouatians the firebrands of schismes and dissensions in the Church S. Cyprian hath writen a notable treatise touching the vnitie of the church wherein he dooth instruct and exhort Christians to keepe the vnitie of spirit in the bond of peace and be at concord among them selues And to winne this of them by reasons and perswasions out of the holy scripture as among the rest hee bringeth sundrie figures wherein is represented the vnitie of the church as the arke of Noe the coate of Christ the house of Rahab the lambe of the Passouer so among the figures he placeth Peter first in that our Sauiour said to him Thou art Peter and on this stone wil I build my church To thee will I geue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen againe Feede my sheepe For albeit Christ saith he gaue equall power to all the Apostles after his resurrection and said As my father sent me so I send you receiue ye the holy Ghost whosoeuers sinnes ye remitte they are remitted to them whosoeuers sinnes y◠reteyne they are reteyned yet to declare vnitie he disposed by his authoritie the originall of that vnitie beginning of one No doubt the rest of the Apostles were the same that Peter was endued with like felowship both of honour and of power but the beginning doth come from vnitie that the church of Christ may be shewed to be one Now this place of Cyprian which by the former printes was thought to make rather for an equalitie of all the Apostles in power then a supremacie of one as it dooth in deede is farsed with such wordes in the Romane Cyprian that in shew it maketh for Peters supremacie and so for a supremacie in power like the Popes as you teach men to gather of it For wher it was in Cyprian that the rest of the Apostles were equall both in honor and power vnto Peter but the beginning doth come from vnitie the Romane Cyprian addeth these words and the primacy is geuen vnto Peter Where it was in Cyprian that Christ did dispose the originall of vnitie beginning from one the Romane Cyprian addeth he appointed one chaire And againe where Cyprian said that the church of Christ may be shewed to be one the Romane Cyprian addeth and the chaire to be one This was well to beginne with that vnto Peter the primacy is geuen that Christ appointed one chaire and as the church must be one so the chaire must be one Yet because one chaire in Cyprians language dooth make no more for the chaire of the bishoppe of Rome then of the bishop of Carthage the Cyprian of Anwerpe to helpe the matter forwarde doth bring in Peters chaire And where it was in Cyprian euen in the Romane print too Hee who withstandeth and resisteth the church doth he trust him selfe to be in the church the Anwerp Cyprian addeth Hee who forsaketh Peters chaire on which the church was founded dooth he trust himselfe to be in the church So whereas aforetime S. Cyprian shewed the vnitie of the church in an equalitie of Peter with the rest of the Apostles now by good handling hee sheweth Peters primacie and that by good expounding is the Popes supremacie For we must imagine that by Peters chaire is meant the Popes chaire which chaire be forsaketh who is not obedient and subiect to the Pope according to Gratian in the canon law The only difficultie and scruple that is lefte to breede a doubt thereof in suspicious heads is that clause of Cyprian that Christ gaue equall power to all the Apostles and the rest were the same that Peter was endued with like felowship both of honor and of power Which wordes if you could hansomly take away out of him in some new print and why not take away so few as well as adde so many then would this be a passing fine place for you to perswade men that the vnity of the church doth presuppose your one chaire to which all must be subiect who wil be of the church and that they by consequēt are no right Christians who stand against the Popes supremacie Hart. You are much to blame to lay vnto our charge the corrupting of Cyprian chiefly in those editions which are best and soundest the Romane of Manutius and Anwerp of Pameliu◠For Pius the fourth a Pope of worthy memory desirous that the Fathers should be set forth corrected most perfitly and cleansed from all spots sent to Venice for Manutius an excellent famous printer that he should come to Rome to doo it And to furnish him the better with all things necessarie thereto he put fower Cardinals very wise and vertuous in trust with the worke Now for the correcting and cleansing of Cyprian specially aboue the rest singular care was taken by Cardinall Borromaeus a copie was gotten of great antiquitie from Verona the exquisite diligence of learned men was vsed in it Wherefore I am perswaded that whatsoeuer they did adde vnto Ciprian they did not adde it rashly or of their owne head but with good aduise vpon the warrant of writen copies Which although they haue not declared in particular yet may we gather it by Pamelius a Canon of the Church of Bruges and Licentiat of diuinitie by whom the Anwerp-Cyprian was afterward set foorth For he doth note that al the words which you spoke of added by Manutius in the Romane-print he appoynted one chaire and the chaire to be one and the primacie is geuen vnto Peter are in a written copie of the Cambron-abbey which was the best of all the copies that he had Yea those of Peters primacie not onely in that copie but in an other too which Cardinall Hosius occupied As for the rest which were added by himselfe in the print at Anwerp he who forsaketh Peters chaire on which the church was founded doth hee trust himselfe to bee in the church hee noteth that they also are in the Cambron-copie and confirmed by Gratian who hath the same words and citeth them with Cyprians name Whereby you may perceiue that wee haue not corrupted those places of Cyprian either in the Roman-print or the Anwerpe we haue corrected rather that which was corrupt But I see the Poet hath said very truely Nothing is done so well but with euill speeches a man may depraue it Rainoldes And it is as truely said by the Orators Nothing is done so euil but with faire colours a man may defēd it The Pope sent for Manutius to print the Fathers corrected he appointed foure Cardinals to see the worke done Cardinall Borromaus had singular care of Cyprian
may séee by Eli. Rainoldes But this was verie rare extraordinarie Now the Law which God prescribed in Deuteronomie by his seruant Moses did touch the common state and ordinarie gouernment of the people of Israel For both it is generall without limitation of persons or times as to be kept still for the ending of their controuersies not onely in the dayes of Eli and it is written that when king Iosaphat restored the state decayed in Ierusalem hee set of the Leuites and the Priestes and of the chiefe of the families of Israell for the iudgements of the Lorde and for controuersies Which to haue béene done in respect of that law it appeareth by the wordes that he spake vnto them Whatsoeuer controuersie shall come vnto you from your brethren who dwell in their cities betweene blood and blood betweene law and precept statutes and iudgements doo ye admonish them that they offend not against the Lord. Wherefore séeing that the law in Deuteronomie was made to establish a highest court of iudgement in which all harder causes ecclesiasticall and ciuil should be determined without appeale farther the reason and the practise of the law do shew that in respect of the two kinds of causes there were ordained two sortes of men to heare them ecclesiasticall and ciuill the ciuill meant by the iudge the ecclesiasticall by the Priest Who because they were distinct as in office so in person too ordinarily it followeth thereof that the Priest was not meant by the iudge Hart. Yet the Glosse expounding that place of Deuteronomie doth say that by the iudge is meant the high Priest euen as I say Rainoldes But Lyra and Caietan as worthie men as they who compiled the Glosse if you will heare men doo say that by the iudge is meant the ciuill magistrate euen as I say Which sense of the place is so plaine certaine that Carolus Sigonius the Popes owne historian in a booke which lately he set foorth at Bononia with approbation of the Bishoppe and holy Inquisition and dedicated to Pope Gregory the thirtéenth affirmeth that the king is meant by the iudge in that place of Deuteronomie It may be M. Hart that sith you were beyond-sea they haue bethought them selues and seeing that your Glosse doth goe against the text they will no longer stand vnto it Indéede if the supremacie belong to the iudge the Prince hath greater right thereto then the Pope For it is certaine as I haue declared by circumstances of the scripture that the Priest was not meant by the iudge Hart. It skilleth not to my purpose whether he were or no. It sufficeth me that he who refuseth to obey the Priest must die by the law Which is enough to proue the soueraintie of one Priest Rainoldes Not so For the name of Priest in this law doth signifie the Priestes Which is cléere by reason that the punishment of the transgressor hath a relation to the law and the law doth will men to go to the Priests the Priestes it saith as of many not as of one the hie Priest Wherefore in giuing sentence of death against him who disobeieth the Priest it meaneth the Priestes according to a kind of spéech wherin the whole is noted by the part As afterward likewise entreating of the duetie and right of the Priestes it noteth them in generall by name of the Priest Hart. But here vpon mention of the Priest it foloweth who doth serue the Lord thy God By the which title the hie Priest may séeme to haue béene namely noted and seuered from the rest Rainoldes He might so were it not that the same title is also giuen afterward to Priestes generally yea where this matter is touched againe of purpose the Lord thy God hath chosen the Priestes the sonnes of Leui to serue him and to blesse in the name of the Lorde and by their word shall euery controuersie and euery plague be tried Hart. Yet you will graunt I trust that amongst the Priestes there was one chiefe yea euen in this matter of highest iudgement in doubtfull causes Which in the same place of Scripture that you brought to expound this is shewed by king Iosaphat saying vnto them to whom that iudgement was committed Amarias the Priest shall be the chiefe ouer you in matters of the Lord. Rainoldes This I will graunt you But you must graunt me also that looke what is giuen to him amongst the Priestes in matters of the Lord that is in ecclesiastical the same amongst the iudges is giuen to Zebadias in matters of the king that is in ciuil causes For Iosaphat doth say as well the one as the other So that to come now to the later point of your lame similitude if Christians must haue a soueraine Bishop ouer all because the Iewes had one chiefe Priest then Christians must haue a soueraine Prince ouer all because the Iewes had one chiefe iudge And as all harder causes at least of religion must be referred to the Pope so all of ciuill matters must be referred to the Emperour And as amongst the Iewes the Priest and iudge were resident in the place which the Lord had chosen so the Pope and the Emperour must both abide in Rome Which Pope Paule the third did feare that Emperour Charles the fifth would haue done But he sent for the French men to kéepe him out If Gregorie that now is Pope be better minded and will resigne his ciuill State vnto the Emperour with the Palace of Vaticane and Castell of Saint Angelo then may the reason which you ground vpon the law in Deuteronomie serue you with greater shew Howbeit euen in that case it would rather further the Emperour then the Pope because it mentioneth the iudge as one the Priestes as many Hart. It is not necessary for the gouernment of the common-wealth among Princes that any one of them be Prince ouer all But as the king of Iuda was in his owne kingdome so euery Prince is highest in his own dominion Rainoldes Neither it is necessarie for the administration of the Church amongst Bishops that any one of them be Bishop ouer all But as the hie Priest was chiefe ouer the Iewes so is euery Bishop ouer his owne charge Hart. Nay the case of the Church and common-wealth herein are vnlike and different Because that common-weales may be vpholden although they be gouerned not onely by diuerse kings and ciuill magistrates but also by diuerse ordinances and lawes But the Church as it hath one faith in all Christians so ought it to haue the same lawes and ordinances of religion in all countries Rainoldes This difference and vnlikenes betwéene the Church and common-wealth is lesser then you imagine if it bee marked well For iustice and right in giuing euery one his due should haue the same place in the common-wealth which faith and religion claimeth in the Church Now as in religion there are some things of substance
and some of ceremonie so there are some pointes essentiall in iustice and some accidentall The essentiall pointes of iustice are the same in lawes of all common-wealthes For what is a law but a diuine ordinance commanding thinges honest and forbidding the contrarie The accidentall pointes doo and may vary according to circumstances of places times and persons So lawes of religion must be the same for substance in all Christian Churches in ceremonies they may differ as in the primitiue Church they did Wherefore the same faith and lawes of religion do no more inforce all churches to obey one Bishop then the same right and ordinances of iustice do require one Prince to rule all common-wealthes But what soeuer your fansie make you thinke of this point the place in Deuteronomie adiudging them to death who disobey the Priest can not helpe your fansie though it had béene meant of no other Priest but of the high Priest onely For Christ wheÌ„ he sent his Apostles to preach the Gospell said vnto them Whosoeuer shall not receaue you nor heare your wordes when yee depart out of that house or that city shake of the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall be easier for them of the land of Sodome and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement then for that citie Which wordes being spoken to all the Apostles not to Peter onely and therefore belonging to all their successors as well as to Peters doo shew that euery Bishop hath as great authoritie giuen him by Christ as the Priest had by that law in Deuteronomie In so much that Cyprian doth alleage it often by a better reason of proportioÌ„ then yours to proue the authoritie of Bishops each in seuerall ouer the flockes committed to them Hart. And what if a matter of religion be harder then Bishops each in seuerall be able to decide it What if they disagree and will not yéeld one to another Doth not wisedome shew that there must be a chiefe iudge to ende the controuersie to keepe the truth of faith and peace of the Church that it be not pestered with heresies and schismes Rainoldes The wisedome of God hath committed that chieftie of iudgement so to call it not to the soueraine power of one but to the common care of many For when there was a controuersie in the Church of Antioche about the obseruation of the law of Moses some Iewes teaching contrarie to that which Paule and Barnabas taught they ordeined that Paule and Barnabas and certaine other of them should go vp to Ierusalem to the Apostles and Elders about that question And so by their common agreement and decrée the controuersie was ended the truth of faith kept and peace maintained in the Church After which example the Bishops that succéeded them made the like assemblies on the like occasions and by common conference tooke order for such matters both of doctrine and discipline as concerned in common the state of their Churches So did the Apostles and Apostolike men prouide against schismes heresies Their wisedome reached not vnto your policie of one chiefe iudge Hart. The profit of Councels and Synods of Bishops is very great we graunt For many eyes see more then one But it wil be greater if they be all counsellors vnto one gouernor then if they gouerne eche his owne and all in common For reason doth teach vs that the regiment of one which wee call a monarchie is better and worthier then the regiment of many as the Philosophers shew who write of Common-weales Rainoldes Reason is a notable helpe of mans weakenes if it be obedient to faith as a handmaide not rule it as a maistresse And humane artes wherein the Philosophers haue séene many sparkles of the truth of God by the light of reason are profitable instruments to set forth the truth so farre as they haue peace not warre with Gods worde But if the Philosophers haue erred as naturall men who neither doo conceiue the things of the spirit of God nor can know them if reason haue her eyes as it were dazeled because the light shineth in darkenesse and the darkenesse did not comprehend it then is it to be feared least as the Serpent seduced Eue through his suttletie so he beguile you by reason and you forget that lesson of the holy Ghost beware least there be any man that spoyle you through philosophie Which I say not so much in respect of this point of the Church gouernment as of your whole doctrine a mightie ground whereof in your Schoolemen is philosophie and your Iesuites challenge doth offer to proue it by naturall and morall reason For here if I would iustifie the cause by Philosophers it is â—asily shewed that the Churches state is a most perfite monarchie wherein Christ is king his lawes are the scriptures his officers are the Bishops not ordained to bée assistantes vnto one deputie but to be deputies all them selues euen Pastors of his flock guides rulers of his Church Howbeit if it differ from the kingly states of worldly coÌ„mon-weales which philosophie writeth off as it doth in part Philosophers must not maruel sith Christ hath declared his kingdoÌ„e is not of this world Indéede the Apostles thought of such a kingdome but Christ saide it should not be so amongst them as with the Princes of the Gentiles Which sentence of Christ your Popes not vnderstanding and wéening the Apostles to be forbidden nothing but an heathnish tyrannie and liking well a monarchie because Philosophers prayse it they haue raised a visible monarchie of their owne in steede of Christes monarchie and haue chaunged his kingdome which is not of this world into a worldly kingdome the kingdome of the Romanes as a Iesuit calleth it Neither contenting them selues with such a kingdome as Princes of the Gentiles had they make them selues Princes ouer all the kingdomes and nations of the earth Which is a greater monarchie then Philosophers like off as I coulde proue out of them if the Popes cause were to be handled in their schooles But because I list not to trifle out the time with idle discourses about pointes of State as your Rabbines doo to proue that a monarchie is the best regiment therefore against such reasons I laye that exception which Tertullian did of olde against heretikes What hath Athens to do with Ierusalem the schoole of philosophy with the Church of Christ The duetie of Christians is to search and weigh in matters of faith not what reason but what religion not what the Philosophers but what the Prophets Apostles not what mans fansie but what the Spirit of God doth say And so the former parts of your maine argument for the Popes supremacie are too weake to proue it The last is weaker then they both For that there should be one chiefe and highest Pastor of the Church in earth it hath some
of Constantine as you would haue vs to imagin Their meaning was onely to shew that the Canons which are called the Canons of the sixth Councell were made by other Bishops in the time of Iustinian long after that Councell and therefore are falsly fathered vpon that Hart. But is not Honorius condemned by those Canons whosoeuer made them Rainoldes He is not as much as named in any of them saue onely in the first where they who named him haue named him so that both they haue seuered them selues from the sixth Councell by which he was condemned and haue encreased the credit of it For they recken him amongst the heads of the Monotheliâ—es and say of them all that the sixth Councell did condemne them iustly Hart. That Canon sauoureth of corruption which speaketh so of Pope Honorius Rainoldes So. What say you then to the sixth generall Councell it seâ—fe They doo speake of him a great deale more bittâ—rly reprouing his doctâ—ine as the doctrine of heretikes false wicked pestilent Nor thinking it enough to condemne his doctrine they curse his name and person also Hart. I say that the copies of the sixth general councel are corrupted Rainoldes The sixth generall Councell hath handled the cause of the Monothelite heretikes in eightene actions as they are termed In the first action the eight and the eleuenth the heretikes alleage in their owne defense that Pope Honorius taught as they doo In the twelfth and thirtenth his writinges are examined his heresie discouered himselfe condemned and cursed In the sixtenth seuententh and eightenth the sentence which was giuen against him and the curse are repeated often againe and againe with acclamation of the Councel Thinke you that the copies of the actions of the Councell are corrupted in all those places Hart. In all in which Honorius is condemned or cursed Rainoldes What and that those places are corrupted in all copies and that without difference all after one sort al with the same wordes Hart. All why not is that impossible Rainoldes Not impossible yet improbable But the seuenth generall Councell which you esâ—éeme so greatly for their defense of image-worship this seuenth doth make no better account of Honorius Hart. The seuenth generall Councell is corrupted too Rainoldes But in the eight general Councel there is rehersed a spéech of Adrian the Pope which he had vttered in a councell assembled by himselfe In that he affirmeth that the Bishops of the east did condemne Honorius with the consent of the Bishop of Rome Hart. The eight generall Councell is corrupted too Rainoldes But Leo the second who was Pope then when the sixth Councell was ended doth namely confirme this point with these wordes we accurse Honorius who hath not lightned this Apostolike Church with Apostolike doctrine but by wicked treacherie hath labored to subuert the vndefiled faith Hart. That epistle of Leo is corrupted too Rainoldes But many other learned both Gréeke and Latin autors Beda Psellus Vmbertus Balsamon Marianus Scotus Tharasius and the easterne bishops yea your owne Pontificall of the Popes liues make reporte of it Hart. What néedeth this adoo It is all answered by Father Robert in a word For either these autors are corrupted them selues or they were deceiued by the copies of the sixth councell being corrupted Rainoldes The saying of Tully I sée is verie true He that is once gone beyond the boundes of modestie must lustily be impudent Albertus Pighius an Archpapist intending to proue in his bookes of the holy princehood of the Church that in all causes of faith and religion the Pope is the soueraine iudge of all Christians whom they are bound to heare and folow because it was absurd he thought and very daungerous to attribute so great a power to one man vnles the man were such as might not erre in faith therefore he tooke vpon him to bring in this doctrine that the praier of Christ for Peters faith not to faile doth priuilege the Pope from falling into any heresie Whereupon as in generall he denied that the Pope may be an heretike though all Diuines and Canonistes by his confession graunt it so to clense Honorius thereof in particular hée said that the copies of the sixth Councell which made against him were corrupted This dealing of Pighius was greatly misliked by lerned men of his own side in so much that one of them reproued him for it in a publike assembly wisht him to recant it They alleaged against him that Honorius was condemned and pronounced an heretike by two generall Councels the sixth and the seuenth wherofthe authoritie ought to be held as sacred But Pighius was so farre from being moued therewith that he wrote a new treatise against those two Councels affirming them to be corrupted and in heat of zeale for the Popes quarell he called the sixth Councell a most cursed Councell Here the Councels case and perill that was like to fall on all autours if such hot heads might make such desperate answeres did stirre vp the spirite of Franciscus Torrensis to write against Pighius whom he hath confuted and proued that Honorius was in deede an heretike condemned by the Councell iustly Sith the which time though Hosius a Cardinall and Onuphrius a Fryer men of hard foreheads haue taken Pighius part yet neither haue they strengthned the reasons of Pighius shaken in péeces by Torrensis and other of your Doctors more ingenuous and sound namely Iouerius Canus Andradius and Alfonsus a Castro haue shewed their mislike of Pighius and Honorius both Yea â—ur countriman Harding who would not graunt so much of any other Pope yet graunted of Honorius that he may be iustly burdened with heresie and fell in deede into it But now behold a newe gamster a Iesuit Father Robert doth set vpon the matter fresh and teacheth in his solemne lectures at Rome that it is true the Pope may be an heretike marry it is probable and godly to be thought that he cannot be an heretike A straunge resolution and fitte for a Iesuit Yet to shew how probable he can make that seeme which he confesseth to be false by holding the contrarie therof to be true he saith somewhat for euery one of those Popes that are charged with heresie and for Pope Honorius he dealeth more impudently then Pighius himselfe For he toucheth not the credit of the sixth or seuenth Councell onely but all that come in his way Councels Popes Grâ—ekes Latins Historians Diuines either they are corrupted or abused by corruption Well may the opinion which Father Robert saith for be probable false both But this of Honorius by which he would confirme it is out of all doubt though false yet not probable Hart. It is probable enough as Father Robert handleth it For streames may be corrupted as easily as the fountaine
two conditions one that they bee lawfully ordayned least they bee theeues who enter in not by the doore an other that being lawfully ordained they keepe and holde vnitie least they become woolues of pastours Rainoldes Then is not trueth of doctrine knit necessarily to succession it selfe no not though it bee lawfull and Apostolike succession Hart. I graunt but with vnitie Rainoldes Then is there much vanitie in Stapletons discourses and in his vaunt more vanitie that in spite of heretikes a sure vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith is knit to the verie succession of the Apostles to the succession it selfe And you by retayning this vnitie with Stapleton haue razed to the grounde that prerogatiue of the Pope whereon you builded his supremacie For if vnitie with succession haue vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith all Pastors kéeping vnitie are as frée from errour in doctrine as the Pope is And so if not to erre in doctrine be a priuilege proofe of the supremacie all Pastours haue as high supremacie by this vnitie as the Pope hath The Pope I can tell you will not like this vnitie How much the more wisely me thought you dealt before when laying the foundation of the prerogatiue Papall you remoued this vnitie out of the chaire that His vnitie might sit in it For whereas S. Austin saith that God hath set the doctrine of truth in the chaire of vnitie meaning of all pastors and teachers of the Church which held the faith with â—oncord against the sect and schisme of Donatistes you applyed that saying to the chaire of the Pope displacing altogether both vnitie and other pastors Wherein though you forsooke the steps of D. Stapleton who proueth by that verie saying of S. Austin that all Priestes and Bishops whether they be pastours or hirelinges teach the truth yet you followed that which you had receiued of your Diuines at Rhemes For they do so apply it to the Popes prerogatiue Belike the great benefites flowing from the Pope to the Rhemish Seminarie did moue them to aduenture somewhat in his quarell more then D. Stapletons heart did â—erue him too Hart No more then in truth and conscience they might For though in déed that saying of S. Austin were meant of al Bishops that held the faith with concord which our Diuines of Rhemes I warrant you knew well enough yet they might apply it to the Pope as chiefely belonging vnto him the fountaine as it were of vnitie Rainoldes But they do apply it to the Pope as onely belonging vnto him For they alleage it to proue the prerogatiue and priuilege of the Pope that howsoeuer he doo in person yet he cannot erre in office Liberius say they in persecution might yeelde Marcellinus for feare might commit idolatrie Honorius might fall to heresie and more then all this some Iudas might creepe into the office and yet all this without preiudice of the office and seate in which saith S. Austin our Lord hath set the doctrine of truth If your Diuines of Rhemes knew that S. Austin wrote this of all Bishops that held the faith with concord their sinne is the greater For that which he made common to the vnitie of all they nippe it as proper to the singular seate of one And that which he spake in generall of wicked bishops who say good thinges and doo euill they abbridge it to Popes As who say that Popes onely could be wicked not other Bishops also Hart. If there were perhaps either a slippe ofmemory or other ouersight in citing of S. Austins wordes the matter is not great so long as the thing is true which they be cited for namely that the Pope may erre in person not in office as a priuate man not as Pope Rainoldes The matter is so great that the tracke thereof will find vs out that which by this distinction you séeke to steale away For you say that the Pope cannot erre in office though he may in person And why Because although his person be wicked yet in the seate hath God set the doctrine of truth as S. Austin saith But as S. Austin saith it all Bishops be they good or euill pastors or hirelinges doo sit in that seat So that none of them can erre in office neither by consequence of your reason Wherefore if the Pope cannot erre as Pope a Bishop cannot erre as Bishop But you will not say I thinke that a Bishop cannot erre as Bishop Therefore you must yéeld that the Pope may erre as Pope Hart. What if I said that a Bishop can not erre as Bishop I could maintaine it after a sort Rainoldes I doubt not of that But you should marre the Popes priuilege which if you doo Hart. Nay I say it not The fault of your argument is rather in the former part I meane in the ground thereofwhich you said as out of S. Austin that the office and seate wherein God hath set the doctrine of truth is common to al Bishops For though he may séeme to haue so thought in that epistle yet in the next before it he giueth that prerogatiue to the Sée of Rome Rainoldes Unlesse your Diuines of Rhemes doo abuse him For out of that epistle they teach vs this lesson God preserueth the truth of Christian religion in the Apostolike See of Rome which is in the new Law answerable to the chaire of Moses notwithstanding the Bishops of the same were neuer so wicked of life yea though some traitor as ill as Iudas were Bishop thereof it should not bee preiudiciall to the Church and innocent Christians for whom our Lord prouiding said Doo that which they say but doo not as they doo August Epist. 165. Now in the epistle alleaged and quoted for proofe of this lesson S. Austin saith the very same which in the other of wicked Bishops in generall though applying it in particular to the Bishops of Rome if any of them had béene wicked Your Diuines of Rhemes leaue out the generall wordes that simple men may thinke he meant a special priuilege of the Sée of Rome Whereto they note in the margent The See of Rome preserued in truth And vpon other like places The dignitie of the See of Rome And that which passeth all they say that in the newe law the See of Rome is answerable to the chaire of Moses the Apostolike See of Rome I was of opinion before I saw these gloses of theirs vpon the Testament that Stapleton had passed all the Popes retayners in abusing Scriptures and Fathers for the Papacy But now I perceiue and confesse that as Ierusalem did iustifie her sister Sodom so the Diuines of Rhemes haue iustified their brother Stapleton For Stapleton as he hath dealt with greater truth and honestie then they in many other pointes so hath he shewed in this of Scribes and Pharises sitting in Moses chaire both that the text is meant of wicked
lawfullie prouide for the maintenance of their state temporall For what saith S. Paul If any man haue not care of his owne and specially of his domesticals he hath denyed the faith and is worse then an infidell Wherefore you must consider that the Pope susteineth a double person as it were the one of a Prince the other of a Bishop As a Prince he gouerneth his temporall dominion as a Bishop his spirituall His spirituall charge is all the churche of Christ his temporall a part of it And so though both of them concerne after a sorte the state of the Church yet his affaires spirituall which stretch through all Christendoom doo differ from his temporall which touch the Church of Rome chieflie For example Leo the ninth a verie good Pope aboue fiue hundred yeares since when the Normans spoiled the land of the Church and he had cursed them for it but could not conquer them by curses he got of the Emperor a strong band of soldiours whom he lead in person himselfe against the varletes and met them in the field manfully At the same time Michael the Patriarke of Constantinople denyed the supremacie of the Church of Rome and claimed it to his own Sée Whereof when Pope Leo heard he sent thrée legats to Constantinople to root out that heresie Now the former of these thinges he did as Prince against the Normans who set vpon his temporall dominion with armes the later as Bishop against the Patriarke who taught heresie a point of his spirituall charge Affaires of this later sort let me name for difference sake the Church-affaires the former the affaires of state And so it shall appeere what iniurie you doo them whom spitefully you call Herodes For you say that the affaires which they are busied about are their affaires of state Whereas in verie truth the affaires of the Church doo busie them a great deale more to sée that the Catholike religion be taught that errors be suppressed to prouide dioceses of good and learned Bishops and parishes of able pastors to heare appeales determine causes receiue supplications excommunicate the wicked absolue the repentant to doo the whole function of supreme heades of the Church And may not these affaires so weightie in charge in number so manie bee a iust excuse for them if they preach not Or will you slaunder them that they omit that dutie for their state-affaires when they omit it for the Church Rainoldes I would to God you were able to proue that I slaunder them and speake more spitefullie then trulie ofthem Better had it béene and would be for poore Christians of whom they haue murdered more soules nay more thousands of soules in one countrie with their Herodian practises then Herode murdered bodies through his whole dominion And this haue they doon by that prophane policie wherewith I iustlie charged them euen by pretending the Churches state to plant their owne and vsing the shewes of gouernment spirituall to get them temporall aduancement For vnder the coolour of binding and loosing the credit of forgiuing sinnes the title of S. Peters keyes their ordering of the whole Church and highest power in al Church-causes they haue raised vp the tower of their Papacie with the spoiles of Christendom and haue deuoured men as breade and sold the poore for siluer that they might make themselues strong in power and rich in wealth The first and chiefest meanes whereby they finished this worke and hauing built the walles by climing vp aboue Bishops did lay the roofe of it by climing vp aboue Emperours was excommunication Which they not content to vse against their Souerains as a spirituall ceasure did racke it to a ciuill punishment remouing them not onelie from the communion of the faithfull but also from dominion and rule ouer their subiectes and putting them as from the Church so from the Empire too When Emperour Leo the third desirous to abolish the worship of Images which then was créeping in had caused them to be defaced and thereupon did punish some who withstood it Pope Gregorie the second did excommunicate him in that Papal sorte forbidding the Italians to pay him tribute or obey him Upon this sentence and inhibition of the Pope a great part of Italie rebelled against their Emperour resiant at Constantinople and laid violent handes vpon his Deputies Lieutenants of whom they slew two and put out the eyes of the third By reason of which vprore and tumults ensuing part of the countrie that rebelled was conquered by the king of Lombardie Rome and the dominion of the Roman Dukedome fell vnto the Pope So the Pope who till that time had béene a Bishop onely became a Prince by treason But the Emperour sent another Deputie into Italie to stay those attemptes Who entring into league with the king of Lombards they ioined hostes togither and besieged Rome The Pope perceiuing that the garrisons and munitions wherewith he had fensed and fortified the citie were not strong enough to make his partie good against them trusting on the king of Lombards deuotion he went out with a solemne procession vnto him and with many swéete wordes of Peter and Paul Princes of the Apostles who with their pretious bloud had consecrated the church of Rome and will the godly vertuous catholike king of Lombards hurt the citie of that church and draw on him the vengeance of Peter and Paul he did intreate the king to giue the siege ouer and make the Deputie and him friendes Afterwarde a Duke one of the kinges subiects entending to reuolt from him did ioine in league and fréendship with the Roman Prince Pope Gregory the third and on the affiance thereof he rebelled The king hauing recouered his Dukedom by armes pursued the Duke to Rome The Pope not willing to deliuer the rebell nor able to defend the citie against the king who thereupon besieged it dealt as his predecessour had doon by supplication But finding the matter to be past intreatie and hoping for no aide in Italie hee sent to Charles Martell the king of Frances hye steward desiring him to helpe the church against the Lombard Which Charles by an embassage did raised the siege Now when Charles dyed his sonne named Pipine sucâ—ceded him in office who because Chilperike that was king then did no part of the kingly duty but left the charge and burden thereof vnto him he tooke thereby occasion to make himselfe king Which to bring about with greater credit and autoritie the Popes aduise was asked Pope Zacharie made answere that he who did execute the dutie of the king ought to be king rather then he who did not execute it Whereupon the French men chose Pipine to be king the Pope released them of their oth to Chilperike About a two yeares after the king of Lombardy hauing woon Rauenna which citie was the seate of the Empire in Italy thought it méet that Rome and the Roman Dukedom
into paines of penance and penance into mines of siluer and golde they haue proclaimed Iubilees of pardons plenarie as they call them to all who came to Rome euery hundreth yeare and visited Churches there deuoutly these Iubilees they haue abridged from an hundred yeares to fiftie from fiftie to thirtie thrée from thirtie thrée to twentie fiue because all Christians came to not Rome for them they haue sent their pedlers abroad with pâ—ckes of pardons that all might buye them at their doores they haue reserued cases and crimes of greatest value as Simonie Sodomie offense of Church-liberty from which none might absolue but they and to absolue men vpon doing of penance they haue built at Rome a Papall exchange called the Penitentiarie where these absolutions are sold at certaine rates neither being satisfied by this exchaunge with the liuing they haue sold their wares vnto the dead also but the liuing must pay for them so many crownes so many soules to be forgiuen all their sinnes and rid out of the paines of purgatorie Thirdly by disposing of the Church-goods which they haue conueyed as the vniust but wise steward from the Lord to serue them selues they haue charged the liuinges of Churches and Churchmen with pensions tributes subsidies they haue exacted of them fifteenes tenthes fiftes thirdes moyities of their substance to the maintenance of warres which they haue waged with the Emperours they haue robbed benefices to enrich Abbeies by appropriations that afterwarde themselues might gleane the greater fruit of Abbeyes they haue made Prelates and such as would be Prelates to compound with them selues for palls for crosier-staues for miters for ringes for signing of billes and to compound with their seruants for writing perusing subscribing allowing conferring registring taxing receyuing keeping deliuering and for the coarde and lead wherewith their bulles are tyed and sealed they haue deuised new officers yea new heardes and companies of officers in their chauncery purposely to this intent that they might sell those roomes the which being sold for many thousand crownes they forced poore suters who came to Rome for grace or iustice to pay it by enhauncing the charges of their bulles the armie of their Registers Notaries Protonotaries Enditers Writers Abridgers Dataries Rescribendaries Accounters Soliciters Plummers Regarders Regentes Poursuiuants Clerkes of their Ceremonies Clerkes of their chamber Clerkes of their eschequer and infinite other peasantes they haue kept in wages with the price of Christians bloud they haue raised an yearely and ordinarie reuenue of first fruites of tithes of the goods of Abbats Bishops and Cardinals deceased which they haue seazed vpon as exectors and when they haue licensed them to make testaments yet haue they kept them selues a share as of euery Cardinall beside fiue hundred ducates which he payeth for his ring all his chappell-iewels ornaments and vessels whether of gold or siluer crosses candlestickes chalices Images and other such eschetes and in a word their ginnes hookes haue béene so many to get the goods of men out of al coastes into their coffers that a Roman Courtier saith the Popes eschequer is like vnto the Sea whereinto all riuers doo runne and yet it ouerfloweth not Fourthly by abusing of the Church-censures for what els should I call it when they haue vsed them as instruments of violence to compasse all that they did couet If any eyther Patrone or Bishop or Archbishop refused to commit the charge of English flockes to Roman pastors or rather woolues if any reproued the wicked sale and godlesse chaffer of their dispensations absolutions pardons if any would not yeelde to pay them such taxes as they required by their legats their marchants their collectors their nuntios spies poursuiuaÌ„ts straight as the person was so came a censure out against him either suspension from administring his office or interditement from vse of Church-seruice or excommunication from the felowship of Christians or citing him to Rome to chastise him by correption or denouncing him an heretike if he continued rebellious and then the secular power must burne him A practise so common that ordinarily the Auditour of the Popes Eschequer is autorized to excommunicate and execute other censures if the Courtisans who pay tribute for license to bee common whoores other farmers of holy rents kepe not touch in bringing in And because these censures haue not preuailed alwayes to atchieue their purposes therefore as they enlarged them against ciuill powers to purchase somewhat thence as from the king of England beside his Peter-pence a thousand markes yearely which yet was but a pety-larceny so they strengthned them against ecclesiasticall by the othe of fealty which they haue woon of Prelats to maintaine the Papacie and royalties of S. Peter Chiefly by winding in autoritie withal that they may depriue them and none may depriue Bishops but they That if Bishops will not agrée to them in all thinges when they are commanded in vertue of obedience yet for feare of léesing their liuinges and promotions yea their libertie yea their life if they be in the Popes subiection they may learne to serue their Lord. But the head of all whereby those wilde boares haue made the chiefest wast of the Lordes vineyarde is the fifth and last point their making and establishing of the Church-lawes For if they had doon and onely doon these vilanies they might séeme to haue doon them as men not as Popes and it might be hoped when one tyrant were gone the next would gouerne well But they haue confirmed the dooing of them by their lawes and procured those lawes to be receiued as canons rules of the Church-gouernment their Decretals their Clementines their Extrauagants in déed extrauagant their constitutions Apostolike and their vnruly rules of the Apostolike chauncerie The grosse intent and practise whereof is so palpable that Budaeus a learned lawier the French kinges secretarie making a complaint of the great disorder of the Popes and clergie doth lay the blame thereof vpon their lawes and iurisdiction It is growne saith he so much out of kinde from the auncient loue that where there was wont to be a motherly lappe of equitie and goodnes there seemeth now to be a shoppe of law-quarels and lewder meanes to gaine by Thence come those snares of processes and cautions of the Popes ordinances deuised to deceiue the houshold of the Lord. Thence come the punishments of sinne by the purse to the encrease of Prelates profits Thence the sacrilegious cursed sales of those things which cannot be brought into mens traffike without abomination I omit their dispensations which giue leaue for money to sinne without punishment and licence the breach of sacred lawes for filthie lucre So the holy canons and rules of church discipline made in better times to guide the life of cleâ—gie men are now become leaden rules such as Aristotle saith the rules of Lesbian building were For
are not so flatt and perfite in the Latin as you doo english them For vpon the name of Damasus it foloweth qui etsi quaedam de donis Constantini dicit tamen alij insignes ecclâ—siarum doctores Rainoldes But if you reade it so the clause ensuing is vnperfit and hath no sense at all A very manifest token that somewhat is a misse through either the writers or printers or correctours faute And that is qui mistaken as I gesse for neque and put out of his place where it ought to folow vpon the name of Damasus etsi quaedam de donis Constantini dicit tamen neque alij insignes ecclesiarum doctores But howsoeuer the words are to be amended the sense must néedes be as I saide touching Damasus For the sentence is plaine so farre that neither Ierom nor Damasus haue mentioned that donation of Constantine as plaine as that which foloweth that it is not mentioned by other famous Doctors neither And who can imagin that the Centurie-writers should say that Damasus wrote of it when it is so cléere that he wrote not that your Hieronymus Paulus Cusanus do bring his autoritie for a speciall reason against the donation The right therefore of it is not proued by Damasus Now is the possession proued any better out of Ammianus Hart. Ammianus Marcellinus an heathen doth closely signifie some such thing while he complaineth and grudgeth at the Popes wealth and power in the seuen and twentieth booke of his story Rainoldes Ammianus saith Genebrard doth closely signifie some such thing In déede some such thing but so farre from that thing that better nothing were said of it For thus saith Ammianus Marcellinus an heathen of Damasus suing to be Pope Damasus and Vrâ—icinus burning with immoderate ambition of getting the Bishopricke of Rome did fall to very sharpe bickrings through partes taken in so much that the matter grew betweene them to the shedding of blood and to man-slaughter Which tumult Viuentius who was the Lord Deputie being neither able to pacify nor to redresse was forced through their outrage to withdraw himselfe out of the citie into the suburbes and Damasus through the valiant behauiour of his faction got the conquest in the fray And it is certaine that in the Church of Sicininus where Christians make their assemblie there were found a hundred thirtie and seuen carkasses of men slaine in one day and the people furiously bent a great while was afterwarde hardly asswaged Neither do I deny considering the brauerie and pompe vsed in Rome but they who aspire thereto should striue with might maine to obteine it sith when they haue gotten it they shall bee at such ease enriched with the giftes and offerings of matrones and caried abroad in wagons and going in gay apparell and folowing so riotous fare that their bankets are more then princely who might in deed be happy if they would contemne the statelinesse of the citie which cloake they vse for their vices and would liue as certaine Bishops doo in prouinces whom great moderation in vse of meat and drinke and meanenesâ—e of apparell and modestie of countenance commend as pure and shamefast to God and to the godly Behold this is the wealth and power of the Pope which Ammianus Marcellinus complayneth off and grudgeth at Some such thing it is as Constantine donation but it is not it For the wealth is the pompe and brauery that they maintained by the offrings of matrones The power is a faction of cutters so desperate that when they slew aboue a hundred in a fray the Lord Deputie could not helpe it But the verie naming of the Lord Deputie sent thither by the Emperour should haue taught Genebrard that the Emperour kept the citie still as his owne and was the soueraine Lorde of it Wherefore that which he findeth in Ammianus Marcellinus touching the Popes wealth and power is in respect of wealth the donation of matrones in respect of power the donation of cutters but in respect of neither the donation of Constantine Hart. Nay in that I thinke you are deceiued greatly that you say the Emperour kept still the citie as his owne because he sent a Deputie thither For that Deputie or Lieutenant was there to kéepe the citie not for the Emperours vse but for his safegarde onely Rainoldes Not for his vse but for his safegard Hart. I least the Pope growing dayly mightier by reason of wealth and bordering vpon him should encroch on somewhat of his vpon occasion As Princes now adayes are wont to haue their Deputies and Lieutenants resident in cities néere their territories for their owne safegard and not to keepe the cities as theirs which are not theirs Rainoldes Embassadours or Agents perhaps they may haue in realmes or cities néere them But that the French king should haue a Lieutenant or Deputie in London or that the Quéene of Englands Deputy in Ireland should kéepe it not for her vse but for her safegard onely Princes now a dayes I hope vse not that sure the Emperours did not For they had their Lieutenants in the citie of Rome not as Agents but as Regents and their Lieutenants kept it both to their safegard and their vse as Symmachus a famous Lieutenant of the citie and the Emperours who deputed him doo manifestly shew Yea euen Ammianus him selfe to go no further doth import as much in the verie place alleaged by Genebrard where both the Lieutenant is called the ruler of the citie and his gouernment is namely noted So farre off was he from dreaming any such thing as you doo imagin of Constantines donation Hart. It is no great matter though Ammianus Marcellinus a heathen doo not proue it Rainoldes Not so great as that Gilbert Genebrard a Christian doth falsly charge a heathen with the proofe of it But will you go forward to the rest of his witnesses Hart. Iustinian the Emperour confirmed that donation a hundred yeares after and then Arithpert the king of the Lombards Pâ—pine Charles the great Lewes the godly and last of all Otho the great in a publike councell of Rauenna as the Centurie-writers also do report vsing these very wordes Centur. 10. chapt 10. pag. 538. in Leo the eighth and Iohn his successour perhaps out of that Authentike as they call it or constitution of Iustinian That the Church of Rome should enioy the prescription of a hundred yeares Rainoldes A proofe of some weight if all this be true that the Centurie-writers report yea and report it vsing these verie wordes that Iustinian the Emperour confirmed that donation a hundred yeares after and Arithpert Pipine Charles Lewes and Otho But what if these be not the verie wordes in which the Centurie-writers doo report it What if the Centurie-writers doo not report it at all As in déed they doo not For these are their wordes Pope Leo the eighth to shew his thankfullnes
of Rome auoucheth in his Nomocanon about the yeare eight hundred and sixtie Rainoldes Nay no more of Photius For it is not he as I haue shewed who saith it but Balsamon who commenteth on him And Balsamon is later by thrée hundred yeares Hart. Yet he was a Grecian too and an enimie of the Sée of Rome and therefore not likely to vouch it if it were not true Rainoldes But Genebrard hath graunted that to be false which he voucheth For he saith that Constantine did giue to Pope Syluester the prouinces and places and fortresses of al Italie or of the westerne countries and not the citie of Rome onely Neither doth he vouch this in respect of Rome but of Constantinople which being to enioy the priuileges of Rome by a law yâ— Photius rehearseth in his Nomocanon Now if you will know the priuileges of Rome saith Balsamon they are enrolled in the decree of Constantines donation made to Pope Syluester So that it was for loue to the Patriarkes Sée of Constantinople not to the Popes of Rome that hee auoucheth it that as Rome might therby claime al the West so Constantinople might get all the East Wherefore that circumstance that Balsamon was an enimie of the See of Rome doth nothing helpe the credit of Constantines donation Neither doth S. Isidore make much more for it as Nauclerus citeth him For as he citeth him he giueth him a touch withall to ouerthrow him There is saith Nauclerus no mention of Constantines donation in any autours but in the booke of decrees and the Archbishop of Florence Antoninus affirmeth in his chronicles that in ancient bookes of the Decreees it is not neither Which I greatly maruaile at sith Isidore reporteth plainely in his storie that Constantine did yeeld the citie of Rome vnto the Pope and all the imperiall ornaments that is to say the crowne the apparell and the white palfrey to ride vpon Nauclerus therefore citeth Isidore as saying it but so as though he thought all were not well in Isidore sith there is no mention of it in any autours of credit or antiquitie I shewed you before how the writings of the auncient Fathers haue beene corrupted to countenance the Popes power The storie of Isidore might be wrought in like sort to countenance the Popes pompe his triple crowne his robes imperiall his horses of estate Which to haue beene so it is the more likely because it is testified by men who had helpes to seâ—ch and sée such auncient euidences that in olde copies of Isidore that is not found And perhaps if that storie of Isidore were printed that we might haue the sight of it it were no hard matter to finde sâ—me tokens there of forgerie At the least it séemeth that Genebrard himselfe suspected some weakenes in that point of Isidore and therefore neither citeth him but as out of Nauclerus and addeth that he wrote at the time that Gregorie did speake much of the Churches landes For if I mistake not the policie of Genebrard he mentioneth the ample landes and possessions which the church had farre and wide through the west in the time of Gregorie to the intent that men might conceiue thereof that the citie of Rome was part of those lands sith Isidore who wrote at the same time reporteth that it was giuen to the Pope But this obseruation which he made to streÌ„ghthen his autours report doth most of all weaken it For neither doth Gregorie name the citie of Rome as part of those landes which in his epistles he sheweth that the church had through the west Hart. But he doth by your leaue For in the fifth booke and the twelfth epistle we make saith hee Montanus and Thomas free-men and citizens of Rome Whereby he declareth that Rome was of the Popes dominion and right as Genebrard concludeth of it Rainoldes Genebrard obiecteth ignorance of antiquitie to the Centurie-writers But in bringing this to conuince their ignorance hée bewrayeth his owne For Thomas and Montanus whom Gregorie made free-men and citizens of Rome were his slaues or bondmen Now amongst the Romans any man might lawfully make his bond men frée and whom he made free them he made citizens as by their auncient law so by Iustinians who liued before Gregories time and reuiued it Wherefore the enfranchising of Thomas and Montanus proueth not that Rome was of the Popes dominion more theâ— of any other Romans And so the circumstance of Gregories time and testimonie which Genebrard would strengthen his tale with doth weaken it For neither is the citie of Rome named by Gregorie amongst the Churches landes as I was about to say and at the verie time that Gregorie was Pope the Emperours held the citie gouerned it as they were wont by a Lord Deputie Then hetherto his witnesses of Constantines donation doo bring it small comfort Doo the rest say more for it Hart. Nicephorus saith in the seuenth booke the nine and fourtieth chapter Constantine did consecrate and giue vnto Christ the palace of Lateran Which thing S. Ierom also had touched before him in an epistle to Oceanus and experience proueth it euen till this day while that is the chiefe See of the Bishop of Rome Rainoldes I perceiue it was either a foxe or a ferne-bush that Genebrard espyed He thought he had séene the whole citie of Rome giuen by Constantine to the Pope and now hee hath found that Constantine did turne his palace into a church that the Pope might teach there and Christians come together to pray and serue God For this is all that Ierom and Nicephorus say Hart. But Nicephorus saith farther in the six and fortieth chapter that Constantine endowed all the churches of the world and Bishoprikes out of his treasurie according to the state and worthinesse of them Therefore he endowed much more the church of Rome then of Eugubium and so forth Rainoldes Nicephorus saith that Constantine did giue through all prouinces some part of the publike reuenues to the churches but not that he did giue according to the state and worthines of ech of them That Genebrard doth adde to kéepe his hands in vre Howbeit if Nicephorus had said that he endowed them according to their state and worthines and therefore more the Church of Rome then of Eugubium yet is not the donation proued by Nicephorus Hart. But reade him also in the eighth booke the third and fourth chapters in the tenth booke the fifth chapter Rainoldes And there shall you finde as much as in the former Hart. Iuo in his Pannomia about the yeare of Christ eleuen hundred and ten doth â—ite certaine thinges out of the charter of the priuilege of Constantines donation Gratian about the yeare eleuen hundred and fiftie Bartolomaeus Picernus and many mo doo bring foorth either all or partes of it Rainoldes Picernus What an autour is he to proue it A hungrie companion who liued
Iewes whereas the Roman Church was a church of the Gentiles Wherefore neither Gregorie did purpose to proue the supremacie of the Pope by Christes wordes to Peter neither did Christ meane the Church of Rome specially but generally the Catholike Church euen all the chosen when he said of his Church that the gates of hell should not preuaile against it And if as one appealed from king Philip to king Philip from Philip halfe asléepe to Philip wel awaked so I may appeale from Gregorie to Gregorie from Gregorie somewhat troubled to Gregorie aduised better himselfe will by and by giue iudgement of my side For in the same treatise he doth a litle after alleage the place rightly and expound it soundly of them alone and all them who are built on Christ firmely and faithfully and nothing shall remoue them from him Which to be the natural sense of Christes wordes it is apparant to the eye For the gates of hell preuaile against them who are adiudged to death eternal But hypocrites and euill seruants are adiudged to it The gates of hell therefore preuaile against such Now such haue béene and may be the members yea the heads of the Church of Rome Then our Sauiour meant not that priuilege to them Onely against the chosen and elect of God the gates of hell preuaile not For whom he hath predestinate them hath he also glorified Wherefore it is the Church of Gods elect and chosen to whom our Sauiour meant it And them he doth call in this place my Church as in an other afterward to like effect my sheepe So what he meant there by saying of his sheepe to them I giue eternal life and they shal neuer perish the same he meant here by saying of his Church against it the gates of hel shall not preuaile Which thing is so cléere out of all controuersie that to passe ouer Theophylact and Origen of whom the one writeth that euery man established in the faith of Christ is meant by the Church the gates of hell shal not preuaile against him the other that these gates preuaile against all who are not of the Church and he is neither the Church nor any part therof whom they preuaile against Lira the meanest of a great many doth thus expound the place that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against the Church by subuerting it from the true faith Whereby saith he it is plaine that the Church consisteth not of men in respect of honour or power ecclesiasticall or ciuill for many Princes and Popes haue beene found to haue reuolted from the faith but the Church consisteth of them in whom there is true knowlege and profession of the faith and truth Hart. Howsoeuer Gregorie did either mistake the words of the scripture or not apply them perhaps to the supremacie yet is the supremacie proued by that title which he giueth the Church of Rome For if the Church of Rome be the head of all Churches why not the Bishop of Rome the head of all Bishops Rainoldes What force this reason hath we shall see anone But first I must conclude that it is not proued by the holy scriptures neither by these which you haue alleaged out of the Fathers nor by any other that you can alleage And this hath heretofore bene the opinion of learned men amongst your selues as i◠appéereth by your Canus Who hauing examined the point with greater iudgement then Stapletons are wont doth graunt that it is not writen in the scriptures that the Pope succeedeth Peter in the supremacie But that which in Canus might perhaps haue séemed one Doctors priuate fansy doth séeme to bée now resolued on by more and is taught publikely For your Roman reader the Iesuit Father Robert in his lectures of the Pope which for their excellencie are set downe in writing and sent abroad as great iewels doth not onely teach the same but also proue it And whereas Canus thought that to conuey Peters right vnto the Pope the stories haue sufficient ground which say that Peter set his chaire at Rome and there died or if learned men shall not allow of that an other ground may be that the Church receiued it though not by scripture yet by tradition Father Robert putting the matter out of controuersie defineth that in déede it is a tradition not of Christ but of the Apostles and least we should doubt of which of the Apostles he nameth the man Peter euen a tradition of Peter Let me intreate you M. Hart if all that I haue said cannot preuaile with you yet to regard the doctrine the doctrine taught at Rome of your owne of the chiefest of your owne Doctors Renounce the vnlearned folies of your Stapleton brainsicke furies of your Rhemists who with desperate violence doo wrest the word of Christ to make it serue the pride of Antichrist Acknowlege that you haue not one text through all the scripture to proue the Popes supremacie that when you tell men of Thou art Peter and on this rocke I haue prayed for the Peter and Peter feede my sheepe you do presume of their simplicitie that in truth these places doo not import it but policie would haue somewhat saide eis not so many would beleeue it finally that the Papacie is a deuise of Popes and Papists for which sith the scriptures can be abused no longer because men haue espied the fraude therefore a new cloake is found for it now and hereafter it shall be counted a tradition of Peter The eighth chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may be iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 neither the auncient Bishops of Rome themselues 6 nor any other Fathers do proue the Popes supremacie HART You labour in vaine if you go about to perswade me that the Popes supremacie can not be proued by scripture And what iniurious dealing is this to bring our owne men Canus and Father Robert for the proofe thereof as though the greatest fauourers of vs were against vs. Rainoldes The scholer is not aboue his maister nor the seruant aboue his Lord. If Christ my Lord and maister were glad to labor in vaine why should I disdaine it Chiefly sith I may comfort my selfe as he did I haue laboured in vaine I haue spent my strength in vaine and for nothing but yet my duety is with the Lord and my worke with my God But what iniurious dealing is it if I indeuouring
If any man preach vnto you more then you haue receyued but beside that you haue receyued For if he should say that he should be preiudiciall to him selfe who desired to come to the Thessalonians that he might supply that which was wanting to their faith Now he that supplyeth addeth that which was wanting taketh not away that which was and so forth Whereby S. Austin sheweth that we may preach more then the scripture hath but not beside it that is to say against it Rainoldes He sheweth nothing lesse as any man that readeth his discourse may see For that which he speaketh of more and of wanting is not meant of scripture that is the worde writen but of the worde preached deliuered by mouth Wherein he declareth that the Apostles maner of instructing men was to feede them first with milke not with strong meat So that which was wanting to the Thessalonians was stronger doctrine of the faith that which they had was easier Wherof though in the one he taught them more then in the other yet no more in either then the scripture hath And thus S. Austins more to be no more then scripture himselfe maketh manifest by the example also which he giueth of it For the doctrine of the manhead of Christ he calleth milke of the Godhead strong meat Now they who are taught to know him to be God learne more then they had learned when they receaued him as man But they learne no more then the scripture hath which teacheth him both God and man Wherefore that S. Austin condemning all who preach ought beside the scriptures of the law the gospell meant that more then scriptures may be preached but nought against them it is not S Austins glose but your Louanists and in truth repugnant to S. Austins text For in the same place S. Austin making mention how the Donatists hated him for preaching of the truth and confuting their heresie as though saith he we had commanded the Prophets and Apostles who were so long before vs that they in their bookes should set downe no testimonies whereby the Donatists might be proued to be the church of Christ. Which words doo shew plainly that as by the scriptures of the law the gospel he signified the bookes of the Prophetes Apostles so by condemning all that is beside the scriptures he meant not all that is against but all that is not in the scriptures And that this was his meaning he sheweth yet more plainely by willing them to proue their doctrine by the testament which your Louan Doctors the greater shame for them to wrest S. Austins wordes against his sense doo note also For as amongst men the testament doth open the will of the testaâ—or so did S. Austin thinke that the controuersie betwixt the Donatists and the Church should be decided by the Scriptures which Christ hath left to Christians as his will and testament For Christ hath dealt with vs as an earthly Father is wont with his children who fearing least they should fall out after his decease doth set downe his will in writing vnder witnesses if there arise debate amongst the brethren they go to the testament He whose word must end our controuersie is Christ. Let his wil be sought in his testament saith Optatus Which reason of Optatus S. Austin vrging against the Donatists as he doth other often we are brethreÌ„ saith he to them why doo we striue Our father died not vntestate he made a testament so died Men do striue about the goods of the dead till the testament be brought foorth when that is brought they yeeld to haue it opened read The iudge doth hearken the counsellours be silent the cryer biddeth peace all the people is attentiue that the wordes of the dead man may be read heard He lyeth voide of life feeling in his graue and his words preuaile Christ doth sit in heauen and is his testament gainesaied Open it let vs reade we are brethren why do we striue Let our mindes be pacified Our father hath not left vs without a testament He that made the testament is liuing for euer He doth heare our words he doth know his owne word Let vs reade why doo we striue Were not this a séely spéech of S. Austin if hee had meant as you say that all the Lords will is not declared in his testament that thinges beside his owne worde may be proued by mens words Let him be accursed who preacheth any point of faith or life beside the scriptures True beside the scriptures that is against the scriptures say your Louan Doctours Sée what skil can doo If they were Doctours of the Arches we should haue ioly law For a coosining marchant might claime a thousand pound of a dead mans goods who had bequeathed him a legacy of tweÌ„tie grotes they might adiudge it him with good consciences as not against the testament though beside the testament Nay they might do this with so much better reason then they doo the other by how much the testament of God is more perfit theÌ„ any mans can be and that which Christ bequeathed the Pope is farre lesse in comparison of the supremacie then twentie grotes of a thousand poundes Wherfore say the Doctors of Louan what they liâ—t perhaps they speake for their fée S. Austin meant plainely that sith the Donatists claimed the inheritaunce of Christ to them selues they must proue their title by his will and testament Which if they could not doo or rather séeing that they could not he pronounceth of them they had no right vnto it And thereupon he commeth to the generall sentence of the heauenly iudge denouncing them accursed who in any point either of faith or life doo preach beside that which is deliuered in the scriptures of the law and the gospel Wherein if beside do signifie against then all in this respect is against a testament which is beside a testament Hart. S. Austin and Optatus against the Donatists doo speake reason that vnlesse they can proue their right by Christes testament they may not shut the Catholikes out from his inheritance and claime his goods vnto them selues For it is meete that the will of the testator should be kept But a learned lawier one Francis Baldwin who hath set foorth Optatus and writen notes vpon him doth shew that a testament may be either nuncupatiuum as he calleth it or scriptum either set down in writing or vttered by word of mouth What say you to testamentum nuncupatiuum Rainoldes I graunt that a testament may be made without writing so that it be done before a solemne number of witnesses But the testament of Christ is writen I hope and so doo both Optatus and Austin speake of it Wherefore your learned Lawier may kéepe that law in stâ—re vntill his client néede it Hart. As who say the testament of Christ might not be writen in part though
Latin for the vulgar it is idiotae Which word if we should haue translated the idiot we should haue doon iniury to the common sort of rude vnlearned men whom it doth betoken as you must néedes acknowledge who translate it the vnlearned as wee doo the vulgar Rainoldes True But you may sée then how wise your Rhemists are who charge vs with notorious folly becauâ—e we giue the name of Priest to sacerdos and not to presbyter For as the name of idiot doth come from idiota but is taken for a foole so the name of Priest is deriued from presbyter but signifieth a sacrificer by custome of our English speech Wherefore if your reason doo proue that all Pastors of the Christian Church must be called Priestes and haue autoritie to sacrifice because they are presbyterâ— it will proue as well that all vnlearned Christians must be called idiotes and may be begged for fooles because they are idiotae Which if you dare not say of vnlearned Christians though in very truth you deale with them as idiotes when you make such reasons to approue your Masse Massing Priestes vnto them learne by discharging your selues in the one to cléere vs of notorious folly in the other For sith in translating thinges as you confesse the sense must bee kept and the sense of wordes is that which vsually men vnderstand by them and by the worde Priest men vnderstand sacerdos that is to say a man appointed to sacrifice it foloweth thereof that our translatours did their dutie in giuing the name of Priests to them onely to whom the Priestly function in scripture doth appropriate it As for your Rhemists who still doo translate sacerdos a Priest as graunting that we haue no other English woâ—d for it and yet translate presbyter by the same worde too they do ioyne together that which God hath seuered and the wordes which the holy Gost hath distinguished they wittingly confound Wherein they doo lewdly abuse the simple Christians who are vnskilful in the tongues to make them in loue with the whorish sacrifice of the idolatrous Masse and alienate their mindes from the true religion professed in the Church of England For the name of Priest as it hath relation to sacrifice is sacerdos which worde your Trent-fathers doo therefore vse in handling the sacrifice of the Masse Now because the name of sacerdos is not giuen to the Ministers of the gospell in the new testament your Rhemists make the name that is giuen them the same in English with sacerdos To the intent that the simple not seeing the sleight may conceiue thereby that ministers of the gospell are Priestes ordeined to sacrifice and so may loth our Ministers who neither doo sacrifice nor list to be called Priestes and may embrace your Priestes who professe them selues to be Priestes yea Masse priestes and are sent to sacrifice as it is shewed in your Apologie of the English Seminaries Hart. That learned Apology which D. Allen wrote in the defense of our Seminaries doth iustly blame your new pulpits the very chaires of the scorneful for calling vs by that terme merily or mockingly For the Church of God knoweth no other Priests neither hath Christ instituted any other order of Priests but of these whom contemptuously you doo call Masse-priests Rainoldes So D. Allen saith But he proueth neither Priestes nor Masse by scripture vnlesse the Masse be the chaire and the Priestes be the scornefull Hart. Though he alleage not the scripture there to proue them yet hath he done it other where as in his Latin treatise of the sacrifice of the Masse and in our Annotations on the testament in English wherein his hand was chiefest For Esay doth specially prophecy of the Priestes of the new testament as S. Ierom declareth vpon the same place in these words You shall be called the Priestes of God the Ministers of our God shall it be saide vnto you And as here the Ministers of God are called Priestes in that very terme which your selfe confesse hath a relation to sacrifice so that they did sacrifice you may perceiue too by the Actes of the Apostles where it is writen of Prophets and Doctors in the Church at Antioche that they were ministring to our Lord. For the Gréeke signifieth that they were sacrificing and so Erasmus translated Whereby it is meant that they did say Masse and the Gréeke Fathers hereof had their name Liturgie which Eraâ—mus translateth Masse saying Missa Chrysostomi Howbeit we translate it ministring and not sacrificing or saying Masse though wee might if we would as you doo boldly turne what text we list and flée from one language to another for the aduantage of our cause But we kéepe our text as the translatours of the scriptures should doo most religiously Rainoldes Your text then doth say that the Prophets Doctors at Antioche were ministring but you to proue the Masse doo reproue your text For if the Gréeke signifie that they were sacrificing and your text translated the Gréeke into Latin how did your text kéepe his text when he translated it not sacrificing but ministring Will you say that the autour of your old translation which onely is approued by your men as authenticall did not performe that dutie which the translators of the scriptures ought most religiously You doo so for aduantage But in this point you doo him iniurie For though the worde may by consequent import to sacrifice when sacrifice is a seruice pertaining vnto them whose ministerie it betokeneth as where it is spoken of Leuites and Priestes yet doth it properly signifie to minister either in publike function after the originall thereof or in any as magistrates are called the ministers of God and Angels are saide to be ministring spirits and the Gentiles are willed to minister vnto the Iewes in relieuing of their necessitie In so much that the learnedst of your owne translators Isidorus Clarius and Arias Montanus who both haue turned the new testament out of Gréeke into Latin the one approued by the Deputies of the Trent-councel the other by the Doctors of Louan doo both of them translate it in this very place of the Actes of the Apostles not sacrificing but ministring which their affection to the Masse would haue béene loth to doo vnlesse the truth had forced them to it How much the more shamefull is the demeanour of your Rhemists who where they carp vs as leauing the Greeke for the aduantage of our cause them selues for the aduantage of their owne cause doo clip the meaning of the Gréeke against I say not the iudgement of Grammarians euen such as seeke to helpe them most but against the common vse of it in scripture against their olde text against their new translations yea against their owne conscience as that which you alleaged out of the Prophet Esay where they haue Englished it
varietie Theirs in small number yours at times and places as many as the sand of the sea And what should I speake of the rest of the things in which you do not onely folow their ceremonies but also go beyond them Your consecrating of Bishops of churches of altars of patens of chalices and other instruments of your Priesthood by anointing them according to the order of Aaron and the tabernacle Your shauing as of Leuites your imagery as from Salomon your halowing of men belles ashes boughes bread the paschal Lambe the paschal taper agnus-deis and what not with exorcized water wherwith almost all thinges are purged by your law as by theirs with blood Your purifying as they called it or as you terme it reconciling of a churchyard or other sacred place if it be polluted In conclusion to passe ouer your festiual daies exceeding theirs in shadowes your mysticall deuises in sacraments to their paterne your pontificall robes in figures incomparable in number double vnto theirs and infinite solemnities of your hiest Priest who entreth once a yeare into the place most holy as did the hye Priest of the Iewes your dayly sacrifice of the Masse though inferiour to theirs in that it is no burnt offering wherein yet I maruaile you came no néerer them for as they kept fyer on the altar alwaies so doo you require it and what should you haue fyer vpon your altar as they had vnlesse you burne as they did but your dayly sacrifice of the Masse is celebrated in such Leuitical sort as if you contended to set forth a Iewish worship more liuely then the Leuiticall Priests could In attire like them in mysteries aboue them in orders more exquisite in cauteles more diligent in furniture aboundantly in lifting vp the whole host and not as they a part of it in ringing of the sacring bell to counteruaile their trumpets in washing often in blessing and crossing in censing often in soft spéech and whispering in kissing of the amice kissing of the fanel kissing of the stole kissing of the altar kissing of the booke kissing of the Priests hand and kissing of the pax in smiting and knocking in gesturing by rule and measure in bowing and ducking in spacing forward backward and turning round about and trauersing of the ground beside the swéete musicke of organs and so forth where it may be had as in the temple it might I dout not M. Hart but you are perswaded that this kind of seruice in your Church is Christian and such that if our selues were present at the doing the solemne doing of it specially atChristmas Easter and such other more festiual times the most of our stonie hartes would melt for ioy as your Bristow writeth But in verie truth it is more then Iewish and his conceit thereof is childish and carnal For although it might be delitefull to the flesh the eies with galant sightes the eares with pleasant soundes the nose with fragrant sauours the minde with shew of godlines to him that doth not vnderstand yet a spiritual man would be grieued at it as Paule was in Athenes and lament that the people should doâ—te vpon that by which they are not edified and wéepe ouer them as Christ ouer Ierusalem O if thou hadst knowne at least in this thy day those things which belong vnto thy peace but now are they hidden from thine eyes The Lord take away this vaile from your heart if it be his good pleasure that you may see at length what it is to worship him in spirit and truth and when you sée it doo it Hart. There is a vaile rather of presumption ouer your heart who coÌ„demne the Catholike ceremonies as Iewish then of ignorance ouer ours who embrace them as Christian. For the Councell of Trent which was gathered togither and guided by the holy Ghost hath accursed them who say that the receiued and approued rites of the Catholike Church vsed in the solemne ministring of sacraments may be despised And those of the blessed sacrifice of the Masse whereat your spite is greatest the holy Fathers of that Councell haue shewed to be grounded on the tradition of the Apostles not on the law of Moses For as much say they as the nature of men is such that it cannot be lifted vp easily to the meditation of diuine things without outward helpes therefore our holy mother the Church hath ordeined certaine rites to weete that some things should be pronounced in the Masse with a soft voice and some things with a lowder Moreouer she hath vsed ceremonies too as namely mystical blessings lightes incense vestiments and many other such things by the discipline and tradition of the Apostles to the ende that both the maiestie of so great a sacrifice might be set forth and the minds of the faithful might be raised vp by these visible signes of religion and godlines to the contemplation of most high things which doo lye hidden in this sacrifice These are the Councels words Whereby you may perceiue that the rites and ceremonies vsed at the Masse are not Iewish but Apostolike as if neede were it might be shewed in particulars of incense by S. Denys of lightes by S. Austin of the rest by other Fathers Rainoldes What of the vestiments too fanel amice albe stole and such trinkets Hart. I euen of them too as basely and scornfully as you speake of them Nor yet are these of ours like in all respectes to those which the Priestes did weare amongst the Iewes From whome in other pointes our ceremonies differ also As for example their incense was a perfume most pretious ours is simple frankincense Their lightes must be of pure oyle ours are of waxe and may bee of other stuffe indifferently Which sith it is likewise apparant in the rest as you must néedes confesse at least for sundrie of them you are to blame greatly to reproch the ceremonies of the Church as Iewish Rainoldes Nay you did mistake me if you thought I meant that they are all Iewish or Iewish absolutely For I must néedes confesse that some of them are Heathnish rather then Iewish As namely the shauing of your Priests crownes after the maner of Priestes of Isis in Egipt Your lighting of candels on Candlemas-day which came from the Februall ceremonies of the Romans Your painting or grauing of the images of men a thing that Christians tooke by custome of the Heathens Your censing of images and setting tapers before them as the Romans also did when they were Heathens To be short the whole substance of your image-worship your kyssing kneeling creeping to the image of the crosse like Sicilians to Hercules your images borne in procession like to the
and explane the scripture to the faithful people in their mother tongue In the Latin toong if they had willed them to to do it the order had agréed better with your doctrine the people would haue wondred at it Now the knowlege of it is like to breede contempt Beside there is danger least by hearing of it often times expounded men become to wise and smell out your abuses The lesse they doo know the fitter to be Papists For ignorance is the mother of Popish deuotion as knowlege is the nurse of Christian religion Hart. We acknowlege that ignorance is the mother of all errors neither do we séeke to noosell Christians in it but to weane them from it as those decrées of the Councell do sufficiently shew Rainoldes They shew sufficiently that you professe so but how well you séeke it the former decrées of the rites by which the people is nooseled in ignorance do more sufficiently shew Nether is it likely that all Pastours and Curates shall haue skil and leasure to expound the scripture to the people often It may be that the seruice read and heard in a knowen tongue would teach them more in a day then some of them will in a moonth Or if euerie Church had as good a Pastour as Paule wisheth Timothee to be that would diuide the word of truth a right yet they being vsed to heare the scripture read should vnderstand him better as the Iewes did Paule and be through Gods grace the readier to beleeue him And sith the Trent-fathers declare this expounding therefore to be néedefull least Christs sheepe be famished or the young children aske bread no man breake it to them it had béene their dutie withall to consider that God would haue the table of his children furnished with this bread plenteously and as Dauids table with a cup running ouer to kéepe them in good liking not onely that they be not famished At least howsoeuer they smooth their practise in this point it is sure that their reason is beside all reason when they say that because the nature of men doth neede outward helpes for raysing of it vp to think vpon the things of God therefore hath the Church ordeined those rites that some things in the Masse should be pronounced with a soft voice and some things with a lowder the one not to be heard the other not to be vnderstood And yet herein their dealing is the more plaine that they doo acknowlege the Church to haue ordained these rites For if they would haue hardned their faces and said that they receiued them from the Apostles by tradition they might as well haue said it and proued it as soundly as they doo of others lightes incense vestiments and all the rest of their beggerie Hart. Beggerie call you that which setteth foorth the blessed sacrifice of the Masse with so comely ceremonies to the consolation and instruction of the faithfull Rainoldes Nay the name of beggerie is to good for it For if S. Paule called the ceremonies of the Iewes weake and beggerly rudiments when they were matched with the gospel what name deserue yours ordeined not of God as theirs but of men Hart. You doo vs great iniurie to apply S. Paules words spoken of the Iewish ceremonies which should cease to ours which should continue Much more in that you say that God ordeined not ours as he did theirs For he ordeined theirs by Moses and ours by S. Paul Rainoldes By S. Paul Fye And who tolde you so Hart. S. Austin saith that all that order of doing which the whole Church obserueth through the world in consecrating offering and distributing of the Eucharist which order of dooing we doo call the Masse was ordeined by S. Paul Rainoldes Your Iesuit in déede maketh that note vpon S. Austin And if his meaning be thereby to proue onely so much of that order as the whole Church obserued through the world in S. Austins time then doth he disproue your ceremonies quite yea some what more then ceremonies For behold he mentioneth the distributing of the Eucharist that is of the bread and cuppe of thankes-giuing both the which you distribute not in any Masse in priuat Masses neither But if he meant as Bristow did and you would haue him that S. Paul ordeined al that order of dooing which your Church obserueth and calleth it the Masse your Councell doth disproue him For they confesse that the Church of Rome hath certaine rites neither ordeined by S. Paul nor obserued through the whole Church And S. Austin speaketh of nothing but that which the whole Church obserued as namely the receyuing of the Sacrament fasting which custome being kept alike of all Christians he gathereth on S. Pauls wordes to the Corinthians other thinges will I set in order when I come that he ordeined it Hart. It is true S. Austin doth speake of those rites which the whole Church obserued through the world without any change or diuersitie of maners But so much the more doth he proue the doctrine of the Councell of Trent For the rites which they say the Church hath receiued from the Apostles by tradition are namely mysticall blessinges lightes incense vestiments and many other such thinges And for these S. Austins witnesse is of force that S. Paul ordeinedal that order of dooing which we call the Masse For the proofe whereof you may sée a cléerer testimonie of his in an epistle to Paulinus quoted by Torrensis vpon the same place of S. Austins confession Rainoldes And in that also Torrensis doth 〈◊〉 you For S. Austin there writing to a Bishop who had inquired of him how those wordes differ one from an other in S. Paul supplications prayers intercessions and giuing of thankes doth tell him that he thinketh thereby is vnderstood that which all the church or in a maner all practiseth to weete that supplications are those which are made in celebrating of the sacramēts before that which is vpon the Lordes table beginne to bee blessed prayers when it is blessed and sanctified and prepared to be distributed and diuided intercessions when the people is blessed and offered to God by their Pastours as it were by aduocates which thinges being doon and the sacrament receyued the giuing of thankes doth knit vp all which S. Paul in those wordes remmbreth also last Now what is there here more for your Masse then for our Communion Or if our Communion which differeth from your Masse no lesse then light from darkenesse yet hath all these thinges which S. Austin toucheth as meant by S. Paul what face hath Torrensis who saith that S. Paul is auouched by S. Austin to haue ordeined all that order of dooing which you call the Masse Is this your Iesuites dealing with the auncient Fathers to make them fetch your Massing rites from the Apostles Hart Yet euen there S. Austin doth
saith and he saith truly for sundry pointes of that he learned as namely that the people did and must receiue the sacrament with the Priest and that vnder both kindes Which sheweth by the way that your priuate Masse and Communion vnder one kinde was against the tradition and order of the Apostles by the iudgement of the Church of Rome and Popes them selues aboue a thousand yeares after Christ. But the making of crosses on the sacrament still in an odde number was so farre from being a thing deliuered by the Apostles that the Church of Rome had then begoon it lately if yet the Church began it and not Pope Hildebrand were rather the father first inuentour of that mysterie For Bishop Amalarius who liued two hundred yeares or thereabout before Hildebrand and did both know and reuerence the order of the Church of Rome hauing said that it sufficeth to make a crosse once vpon the bread and wine because Christ was once crucified addeth that it is not amisse to make it twise because he was crucified for two kindes of people that is the Iewes and the Gentiles Whereto he noteth farther that the Priest made two crosses with the host neere vnto the chalice to signifie that Christ was taken down from the crosse being crucified for two peoples And this which he reporteth of two was the order of the Church of Rome before Hildebrand came who controlled it as appéereth by his scholer vpon this reason that Christ had no wound in his side but one and therefore but one crosse must be made beside the chalice Which reason is so good that it may séeme straunge why the reformers of your Masse-booke haue kept the former order against the rule of Pope Hildebrand vnlesse perhaps they thought that Hildebrand misliked it not so much for that reason as for the number of two which number the sooth-sayers and sorcerers holâ— to be naught But hereby them selues haue opened their iudgement that not all which Hildebrand is said to haue learned vnder ten of his predecessours was the tradition of the Apostles And it is worth the noting how these mysticall blessings which at Trent were fathered on the Apostolike tradition haue lately got that parentage by the helpe of such as was Hildebrands scholer wheÌ„ before they séeme not to haue béene accounted so For Amalarius whom I named a man that was likely for zeale to speake the best for skill to know the most that might be said of the seruice and ceremonies of the Church he had read so much and trauailed so farre euen to Rome and that in embassage from the Emperour to conferre with the Pope about them yet this Amalarius speaking of the signe of the crosse which they vsed to make in consecratioÌ„ leaueth it in dout whether Christ made any when he did blesse the bread or rather thinketh he made none because the crosse at that time was not yet set vp but now saith he wee know that it must be made for S. Austin saith so Where it is not probable that he would haue grounded it on mans autoritie if he could haue said that either Christ had vsed it or though Christ vsed it not yet the Apostles had ordeined it No more then that after the testimonie of S. Austin he would haue iudged it sufficient to crosse the bread and wine once if he had thought that so many crosses as you make were to be required by S. Austins iudgement Hart. Thus you reproue vs as varying from S. Austin because we make so many What may we say of you who make none at all Who nether vse it in consecration of the holy sacraments nor signe your forheads with it nor set it in your Churches nor allow it in the sanctifying of meates and other creatures Though all these things were doon by the ancient Fathers in remembrance of him who dyed for vs on the crosse yea though Christ himselfe haue commended to vs the signe thereof by miracles as the storie of Constantine the Emperour doth witnesse who saw it in the element with these wordes writen by it In this signe ouercome and was charged in a dream to make the forme and likenes of that which he had séene and vse it as a defense against his enimies assaultes which he did accordingly and mightily subdued them by it But nether the vision of Christ vnto Constantine nor that and other miracles which haue béene wrought by it nor the practise of the primitiue Church and ancient Fathers can preuaile with your men but that they must séeke to raze out from among Christians so worthy and notable a monument of Christes passion And yet you will beare the simple people in hand that you are of the same religion that they were when you plucke down that which they did set vp and do cleane contrarie vnto them Rainoldes The signe that appeered to Constantine in the element was a signe of the name of Christ not of his crosse howsoeuer the coiners and crosse-maintainers of your Church do falsly paint it out For as Eusebius writeth vnto whom Constantine did report the thing and shewed him that ensigne which he had caused to be made in the likenesse thereof it was the forme of a speare standing straight vpright with a crowne at the toppe of it as it were a horne which did crosse the middest of the speare a slope So that it represented two of the Greeke letters 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which being the first letters of the name of Christ the name of Christ was signified by that signe to Constantine Thus he describeth it who saw it Hart. But out of dout he calleth it the signe or the monument of the crosse q also Rainoldes But him selfe sheweth that he called it so because it resembled some what the signe of a crosse For nether was it like the crosse of Christ fully which had an other figure and where he describeth it he saith in plaine termes that it was a signe of the name of Christ. Nether were those words that you rehearsed writen by it In this signe ouercome as your Doctor saith belike because he read it coyned in the cruseado so or in the porâ—igue but By this ouercome as if God shewing him the name of Christ should haue said vnto him that there is giuen no other name vnder heauen wherby he must be saued In the which meaning it seemeth that Constantine did vnderstand it also because he vsed afterward to cary in his helmet not the signe of the crosse but those two letters by which the name of Christ was represented to him Howbeit if it were so that not the name onely of Christ but his crosse too were meant by that signe as the Bishops tooke it who therupon taught Constantine the mysterie of Christ crucified yet nether that vision nor
that the Apostles did ordeine them Rainoldes That rule of S. Austin is probable not necessarie For though it be likely that there was no custome obserued by the Church through the whole world which it had not from the Apostles chiefly seeing Christians did vary then so much in rites of all sortes yet they might either haue taken vp or kept of that they had before some thing which the Apostles deliuered not vnto them But admit his rule as an vndouted principle to your most aduantage and yet are you no neerer the proofe of those ceremonies For how can you proue that incense lightes vestiments and the rest of your baggage were vsed at that time through the whole world Hart. Incense to haue béene vsed I haue proued by S. Denys Areopagita lightes by S. Austin Rainoldes But you haue not proued that they were vsed through the whole world either by S. Austin or by S. Denys Nay that Denys who so euer he were doth proue the contrarie For in his description of the Masse as you call it there are neither lightes nor vestiments nor crossinges nor all the other ceremonies whereby it is manifest that they were not vsed through the whole world when that Denys wrote As for incense howsoeuer it crept into that Church in the which he liued it appeereth by the writinges of Tertullian and Arnobius that the Church vsed it not in their dayes Neither is the censing which Denys speaketh of liker to yours then I shewed your blessinges are like to S. Austins For he hath it onely once aboute the Church But in your solemne Masse it is vsed often and to sundrie thinges to the crosse to relikes to images to candlestickes to the altar the lower part of it and the higher to the Priestes to the booke to the bread and wine thrise aboue the chalice and the host and thrise about them to the altar and the Priest againe and againe to the quire to the deacon to the subdeacon to the people and in Masses for the dead to the sacrament also at the time of the eleuation So that if the wordes of the Trent-councell be weighed with your practise you will léese the countenance of that which Denys sheweth to For with him it is incense in the singular number Your Masses and the Councell hauâ— incenses in the plurall By the which word if the Councell meant to note all the censinges that are vsed in Massing as they did of likelyhood then neither Denys maketh for your Massing-incense Though whatsoeuer he make he maketh nought for your reason because he proueth not that it was vsed through the whole world Now the lights which your Iesuite hath founde in S. Austin make lesse a greate deale for it For S. Austin calleth the lights which they vsed 1 lightes of the night because they did vse them in the night time when they met at prayers as Christians were wont But your Massing-lights are vsed in the day time when the sunne shineth a thing perhaps obserued through the whole world but of idolatrous Heathens not of the Church of Christ. Hart. Yes that Christian Churches had also lightes burning in the bright sunne-shine while the gospel was reading S. Ierom is a witnesse and before S. Ierom his Maister Nazianzen maketh mention of it and Athanasius before them both Wherefore out of dout it is an ancient custome and that very generall Rainoldes As you say if it be witnessed by these thrée Doctors S. Ierom of Europe Nazianzen of Asia Athanasius of Afrike But he who saith they witnesse it hath not read them I thinke Hart. But I thinke he hath or rather I am sure of it For D. Stapleton saith it in his comparison of the Catholike and Roman Churches Masse with the Lordes supper of the Protestants Wherin as he allegeth these Doctors for this point so he proueth all things which your Supper wanteth and our Masse hath to be Apostolike Rainoldes He proueth Nay he promiseth to proue them Apostolike For in verie truth he proueth not one not one of all those things wherein your Masse differeth from our Lords supper No more then he proueth this of lightes burning in the bright sunne-shine in the which he notably abuseth their names whom he doth cite to proue it For in Athanasius the tapers of the Church are mentioned onely but that they were lighted in the day-time while the gospell was reading there is no such word Nazianzene speaketh of lightes that were burning vpon Easter-euen but to lighten the night he saith not the day Hart. But speaketh he there of those night-lightes alone and of no other light Rainoldes He speaketh of an other light but spirituall For he saith that the most bright shining light foloweth the candle that did go before it Hart. Why that is it that sheweth the ceremonie which wée talke off For they were wont to carry candles before the gospell when they did reade it Rainoldes They were wont afterward But we speake of Nazianzene And he meant nothing lesse For by the light he signified Christ the light of the world and by the candle Iohn Baptist who went before Christ to prepare his wayes The light saith he shining most excellently bright foloweth the candle that did go before it and the word the voice and the bridegrome the bride man or frend who bringeth the bride to him Is this D. Stapletons proofe out of Nazianzene for burning tapers in the day time Hart. Of Nazianzene I know not But certainely S. Ierom is a witnesse of it against Vigilantiâ—s Rainoldes Yet these are S. Ieroms owne words in that treatise We doo light tapers not in the brightâ—day-time as thou doost vainely sclaunder vs but by this comfort to ease the darknes of the night Hart. But he addeth that Churches of the east had lightes burning in the day-time while the gospell was reading therby to shew their ioy Rainoldes But nether this vsage of the easterne Churches was the same that yours is For they did kéepe lightes while the gospel was reading and put them out after which rite you had also and some where haue perhaps yet But the generall rite which you haue gotten now of burning tapers still before the gospell and after that in S. Ieroms time not onely was vnborne in the weâ—â— but in the â—ast too Though if the east had vsed it yet nether were it proued so by your reason that the Apostles did ordeine it because it was not vsed in the westerne Churches therfore not through the whole world Howbeit I deny not but there is good reason why your Church should vse it For Tertullian saith let them light candels dayly who haue no light the testimonies of darkenes doo well beseeme them Hart. You may bring Tertullians werdes when you haue proued that we haue
and meaning of their whole sentences For the Councell of Afrike though bearing a while with the Popes claime till the Nicen canons whereby he claimed were serched yet at length condemned it as I haue shewed and of the foure generall Councels as the former two did enclose the Pope within his owne prouince or diocese at the most so did the two later of Ephâ—sus and Chalcedon confirming the decrées and canons of the former Hart. Nay doubtlesse at Chalcedon the Iudges hauing heard the former canons read sayd that they perceiued al primacie principall honour to be due to the Pope thereby Rainoldes But they added that the Patriarke of Constantinople ought to be vouchsafed of the same prerogatiues and primacie of honour As the Câ—uncell also it selfe allotted equall prerogatiues to them both ordeining therevpon that Constantinople should be magnified in ecclesiasticall matters as well as Rome and be next vnto it Wherein it is manifest that they meant preeminence of honour not of power For themselues decréed that the highest iudge of ecclesiasticall persons should be the Patriarke of the diocese or of Constantinople Wherby they gaue greater power to the Patriarke of Constantinople whom they authorised to deale in euery diocese then to the Roman Patriarke whom they tied to his own In so much that the Greekes say that all dioceses of the whole world were subiect to their Patriarke by the Councell of Chalcedon At least if the Councel haâ— an eye to power and not to honour only in willing them to be magnified yet that is a disproofe still of the Popes supremacie As you may learne by Gratian. Who séeking to proue it by the same canon renued in the Councell of Constantinople hath helped it with a negatiue and where the Councell sayd Let Constantinople be magnified as well as Rome he alleageth it let not Constantinople be magnified as well as Rome Hart. The Councell which that canon was renued in is vntruly called the sixth general Councel For they made no canons Rainoldes Yet a Councell made them in Constantinople with credit of a generall And the next generall Councell did confirme them Which thereby disproued the Popes supremacie too Yea againe the next defined of the Pope as of other Patriarkes and that vpon the ground of the famous Nicen. To be short the visible Monarchie of the Church was neuer allowed to him by any Councell generall or prouinciall vntil the East Churches were rent from the West and the Italian faction did beare the sway in Councels Hart. What meane you to say so wheras the Councell of Lateran vnder InnoceÌ„tius did approue it flatly the Patriarks of the Churches of Constantinople and Ierusalem being present Rainoldes Not the right Patriarkes I trow Though if they had bene yet might the Italians make decrées in Lateran at Rome without them But nether did that Councell approue the Popes Monarchie For the Popes Monarchie is a full and absolute soueraintie of power ouer the whole Church Wherevpon the principall proctours of it teach that not a generall Councell is aboue the Pope but the Pope aboue the CouÌ„cel For they sayth Father Robert who hold that the Councel is aboue the Pope do make him like a Duke of Venice aboue euery magistrate and senatour in seuerall not aboue the whole Senate But he is aboue the whole Church absolutely and aboue the generall Councell so that he acknowledgeth no iudge on earth aboue him Now the soueraintie of ordinarie power geuen to the Pope ouer all Churches by the Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius was but as it were a Dukedome of Venice ouer euery Church and Bishop in seuerall not ouer the whole Church A signorie of great state but not a Popes Monarchie His Monarchie was neyther allowed by that Councell nor by any other for many ages after nay it was condemned expresly by the Councell of Constance of Basil. The first that allowed it was the Councell of Lateran vnder Leo the tenth a thousand fyue hundred and syxtéene yeres after Christ. Hart. Nay the Councel of Florence had allowed it a fourescore yeres before the Greeke and Latin Bishops subscribing both thereto Rainoldes But in such sort that your Roman reader though making the most thereof for the Popes credit was fainâ— yet to say that the Councel of Florence did not define it so expressely In truth the Greeke Bishops answered of themselues for they might not treate thereof without consent they sayd of their whole Church but of themselues they answered that the Pope ought to haue the same prerogatiues that he had before the time of their dissension Which is a great presumption that when they subscribed to more then the same it was not of themselues Chiefly sith they came besides so constrainedly to that which they did and refused to obey the Pope when they had done it But Leo the tenth with his Italian faction in Lateran defined it From whom the Uniuersitie of Parise appealed straight to a Councell and condemned his Lateran doctrine and decrée as the Uniuersities of Lâ—uan of Coolein of Vienna and of Cracouia had done before also The consent therefore of Pastours and Doctours throughout all Christendome hath disallowed the Popes Monarchie And that which the Pastours and Doctors deliuered was the religion of their Churches Whereby you may sée the truth of that I sayd that except the crew of the Italian faction all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie Hart. Truly I must confesse I sée more probabilitie on your side then I did But in that you said that all Christian Churches haue condemned it and doe till this day you forgot your selfe who granted before that by the Trent-doctrine the Pope is aboue the Councell For the doctrine agreed on by the Councell of Trent which you call the of Trent-doctrine is held by Catholike Christians through the whole Church at this day Rainoldes I said that all Christian Churches haue condemned it and doe except the crew of the Italian faction Which spéeche agréeth well with that I said before of the Councell Trent For the Trent-doctrine of the Popes supremacie is that which the Italian faction at Trent did ouerbeaâ—e the rest in As Claudius Espencaeus a Diuine of Parise a Doctour of your own witnesseth saying that Ludouicus the Cardinall of Arle did complaine iustly at the Councell of Basil that looke what the Italian nation liketh of that is decreed in Councels this is that Helena which did preuaile of late at Trent Now that which the Cardinal Ludouicus spake of was that in Councels not only Bishops but Elders too should haue voices as of old time they had for if Bishops only haue voices sayth the Cardinall then shal that be done that shall seeme good to the Italian nation which alone
opinion and sound in points of faith yea so sound and right that they think no pestilent disease may attache her no contagion infect her no spot of vnfaithfulnes any way defile her Of the which assertion they alleage the Fathers to omitte the residue men of baser credit for principall patrones And therein Andradius dealeth somewhat wisely For he dooth heape together witnesses without testimonies the geuers of euidence without euidence Austins Ieroms Basils Athanases and Chrysostoms But Sanders much more gloriously For he hath laide on such a lâ—ade of testimonies that if the sayings should be numbred and not weighed we must léese our suite no remedy But all the Fathers whom this pety-lawier produceth as speakers for the Popes monarchie doo either deny that the Church of Rome did erre or that it may erre did erre as Irenaeus In the Church of Rome that doctrine hath beene kept still which was deliuered by the Apostles may erre as Cyprian that the Romanes are they whose faith is commended and praysed by the Apostle vnto whom vnfaithfulnes can not haue accesse The former who deny that the Church of Rome did erre speake not against vs. For we doo not say that it did erre in Irenaeus time but that it dooth erre now He denyeth that it did erre we say that it dooth erre doo we gainesay one another Ierusalem is called the citie of God by the Psalmist and he is said there to be serued Esay termeth it an harlot The temple of the Lord is named the house of God the house of prayer by Salomon by Christ it is reported to be a denne of theeues Dooth Esay speake against the Psalmist or Christ against Salomon No but the Psalmist sheweth what Ierusalem was in his time Esay what in his The faithfull citie is become an harlot it was a faithfull citie but it is become an harlot Salomon teacheth what the house of God ought to be Christ what it is made You haue made it a denne of theues it was not to Salomon but you haue made it So Rome was likewise sound in the time of the Fathers but the faithfull citie is become an harlot the soundnes it hath lost it hath got a leprousie it was the house of God it is a denne of théeues it held the faith of Christ but it is fallen from it It had kept the doctrine still which was deliuered by the Apostles vntill the time of Irenaeus but that it hath kept still vntil our time the doctrin which was deliuered by the Apostles doth it thereof folow Unlesse perhaps the Popes Courtiers will proue that the whoores the Courtisans which keepe their stewes are virgins because they were virgins when they were litle babes The former Fathers then who deny that the church of Rome did erre doo not gainsay vs. The later who deny that it may erre gainsay vs in deed but they gainesay the holy Ghost too By whose inspiration the blessed Apostle exhorting the Roman church not to lift vp it selfe against the Iewes Be not high minded saith he but feare For if God spared not the natural branches take heed least he also spare not thee Behold there fore the bountifulnes and seueritie of God seueritie toward theÌ„ which haue fallen but toward thee bountifulnes if thou continue in his bountifulnes or els thou shalt also be cut off The church of Rome therefore may be cut of if cut of then erre if erre then vnfaithfulnes may haue accesse vnto it What and was Cyprian of an other minde Pardon me O Cyprian I would beléeue thée gladly but that beléeuing thee I should not beléeue the word of God But whether we should rather beléeue God or man let the Papists iudge At least if they beléeue rather man then God let them beléeue the reason and iudgement of their owne men For Sotus Alfonsus Hosius Verratus the lightes of the Papists doo witnesse that any particular church may erre But that the church of Rome is a particular church the same Verratus affirmeth nor can the rest deny it Wherefore if Cyprian did thinke that the church of Rome can not erre in that he must him selfe be condemned of errour by the Papists iudgement And so whereas all the testimonies of the Fathers are of two sortes the one of them true but cleane beside the purpose the other to the purpose enough but vntrue it foloweth that the sicknes of the Church of Rome can finde no helpe in any medicines of the Fathers What haue we then to doo with them by whom olde Rome is praysed and reported to gather together Christians to peace and repaire their faith to minister reliefe vnto the brethren the Churches to be a schoole of the Apostles a mother-citie of godlinesse a sanctified Church and such like things a number We haue to doo with new Rome whom her owne stories actes and monuments doo conuince to be a nurse of wars a parent of vnfaithfulnesse a spoyler of the brethren a worshipper of idols a seate of couetousnesse a ladie of pride a cherisher inflamer of lustes of outrages of abominations whose most louing sonne complaineth of his mother that her old fame continueth but her goodnesse is gone that her Pastours are turned into the shape of woolues the neerer you come the filthier all thinges be that trifles are giuen gold is receyued and onely money raigneth there that the Church-goods are made to serue for scoffers the altars for wantons the temples for boyes abused by vnnaturall monsters that the lawes diuine and humane are denyed men and God deceiued holinesse put to flight godlinesse despised renounced and afflicted Yet that a holy life would leade from Rome see that ye flee Though al things els be lawful there yet good ye may not be And these may séeme I hope both weightie causes and iust why the reformed Churches to come to the last Conclusion in England Scotland Fraunce Germany other kingdomes commoÌ„ wealthes haue seuered them selues from the corruption of Rome Though if this were al that it were not lawful to lead a holy life at Rome that we might not be good as Mantuan affirmeth we would haue departed from the citie of Rome as Mantuan aduiseth vs but we would not haue gone froÌ„ the Church of Rome If onely smal infirmities had craâ—ed the health of Rome in pointes of faith such as certaine did in the time of the Fathers we would haue lamented but tolerated it taking compassion of men being vnwarily fallen into a faute we would haue born their burdens But sith in the felowship of the Church of Rome it was not lawful for vs either to serue God with a holy worship or to beléeue God with a holy faith as God hath commanded sith the Church of Rome being taken with contagious diseases a frensy did put her counsellers to
the fyer frends to the sword brethren to cruell death and stained the faith of Christ with reproches creatures with the Lordes honour Gods seruice with idolatrie we went away from Papists not willingly as from men not vnwillingly as from heretikes and reforming our Churches by the rule of Gods worde we seuered them from the contagion of the Church of Rome Wherin because nothing was doon by our brethren but that which the Apostle S. Paul a chosen instrument of the holy Ghost both did and taught to be doon as I haue proued in the Conclusion the Lord shal iudge beweene our Churches and Bristow who condemneth them of the same schisme of which the Donatists were guiltie and he will giue sentence in the last day that we haue beene seuered from the Church of Rome by the prescript of his word that is lawfully But some man will say you ought not to leaue the felowship of the Romans of them which are at Rome beloued of God Saints by calling whose faith is spoken of throughout the whole world But I answere that the Romans which now are there be not Romans they be carkases of Romans It is an other Milo his lustie armes are dead It is an other Hector how greatly chaunged from him But you ought to obey and not resist the Pope of Rome most good in grace most great in power the vicar of Christ the successour of Peter But that we must resist him if he command thinges vniust and pernicious yea that it is the dutie of Princes to resist him in vnlawfull thinges the Papists them selues teach But Christians ought to keepe vnitie of spirit in the bond of peace and the name of peace is sweeete the thing it selfe both pleasant and healthfull But through vnitie of spirit we ought to grow together into the vnitie of of faith and to be all of one minde but in the Lord. If peace should be made with the Pope and Papists it would be like the peace with Antonie and his adherents that is not a peace but an agreement of slauery to them nay of impietie Wherefore as Agamemnon in a Gréeke Poet did answere his brother Menelaus of whom he was requested to shew him selfe a brother by giuing his consent to a wicked act so doo I answere my brother requesting me to ioyne with him in felowship of the Church of Rome whose faith is vnholy whose seruice is vngodly My wittes I would enioy with thee But madde with thee I would not bee And here an ende of my preface Onely this remaineth that I desire hartily and beséech all Christians who shall take paines in reading hereof that they will reade weigh and interpret all thinges with a Christian minde lay aside the preiudice of their owne opinions examin the spirits whether they be of God or no séeke to finde the truth and loue it being found aduertise me if they thinke I haue missed in any thing beare with my briefenes because I was constrained to shut vp much in few wordes looke how faithfull and diligent I haue béene in opening and prouing the Conclusions whereof God is my witnes who will reuâ—ale the secretes of thoughtes so moderate and indifferent let them shew them selues in censuring and iudging of that which they shall reade as before the Lord who shal be iudge of iudges Finally let them folow the godly people of Beroea who when Paul preached receiued the word with al readines of mind and dayly serched the scriptures whether those things were so not the froward Luciferians of whom he confesseth who best knew the maners of his owne companions that they might be conuinced more easily then perswaded As for you my fathers and brethren welbeloued with remembrance of whom I haue consecrated my labour such as it is to the Church of God I pray you and beséech you by our Lord Iesus Christ who hath redéemed vs with his pretious blood and sanctified vs to him selfe that you will striue by all meanes to aduance the glory of God to cherish the séedes of godlinesse to helpe forward the Churches safetie to nourish fruitfull plantes to make the Uniuersities praise to be encreased I meane the prayse which is not of men but of God Confute you the ill spéeches of Bristow by your deedes and shew by your workes that the crimes wherewith hee chargeth vs are sclanders Bestow ye well the good oportunitie of time in studie of good artes by hearing reading disputing meditating speaking and writing Doo ye the worke of the Lord with ioynt desire and will and trauaile one body one spirit one hart one way Stirre vp exercise of learning decayed I had almost said but I hope better Destroy those wanton lusts that draw men from studie idlenes a swéete euill delicacie the baite of Venus the ryote of feasts the vanitie of apparell vnhonest pastimes vnseasonable drinkinges the plagues of stageplayers the sights and shewes of Theaters Last of all to conclude with the Apostles wordes whatsoeuer things are true what soeuer things are honest whatsoeuer things are iust whatsoeuer things are pure whatsoeuer things are woorthie loue whatsoeuer things are of good report if there be anie vertue and if there be any praise thinke ye on these things If there be any vertue and if there be any praise brethren thinke ye on these things The God of might and mercie lighten vs all with the grace of his holy spirit that the heads of Colleges may be present to gouerne and gouerne to benefit the companie committed to them as Samuel was wont that the members of Colleges may lerne vnder Samuel to prophecie by speaking of and setting foorth the praise of God as the prophets did that young men who studie the artes of humanitie may in other things be vnlike to Saul yet like to Saul among the prophets that Colleges themselues and all our companies may be assemblies not of prophets onely but of such as prophecie and folow the lessons of the prophets to the honor of God the comfort of the godly and our owne saluation through Iesu Christ our Lord. Fare ye well From Corpus Christi College The 2. of February 1580. Yours in Christ Iesus Iohn Rainoldes CONCLVSIONS HANDLED AT THE ACT IN S. MARIES CHVRCH THE XIII Oâ— IVLY 1579. 1 The holy scripture teacheth the Church all thinges necessarie to saluation WHen Moses went by Sinai mount toward the holy land FroÌ„ Gods owne mouth the law he wrote the Lord did guid his hand The Prophets next with sacred â—en did bolde that heauenly â—â—ce Whom the almightie from aboue indued with his grace The wisdome of his father high the sonne of virgin pure Anointed with the spirit of God mens sinfull soules to cure The word of the eternall Lord with flesh of man yclad Brought them the treasures rich of life of peace the tidings glad Th' Apostles with this
so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs which it hath not gotten froÌ„ the holy veines whence it is digged but from mens vessels wherein it is receiued and the corne that is sowen for the foode of the soule is winowed with the winde that bloweth from the holy Ghost by the husbandmen of heauen that it may be cleaner from the chaffe of errours The chéerefull vndertaking and faithfull performing of the which duetie the common wealth may chalenge at our hands of right specially for that it hath indowed and furnished this noble Vniuersitie and place of exercise of good learning with priuileges with houses with lands in ample sort to this intent chiefly that it might be a nurserie for Pastours of the Church For both it is méete that Pastours of the Church should be not onely able to edifie the faithfull with sound and wholesome doctrine but also to conuince them who gainesay it as S. Paul witnesseth and we shall be able to conuince gainesayers so much the more easily fitly and effectually if first we practise that in a warlike exercise which we may do after when we shall make warre with enemies in déede Now it there be any thing wherein it is very conuenient and behoofefull both for Christian souldiers to be well practised against the mischieuous attempts of their enemies and the golde of Christian truth to be throughly clensed from the drosse the wheate from the chaâ—â—e by the paines of husbandmen and workmen of the church doubtlesse thâ—s which I haue chosen to debate of is so profitable being knowen so perillous vnknowen that we haue great cause to bend all our wittes vnto the serch knowledge of it For there haue assailed the Church now this great while and scatteredly there range they of whom Christ hath warned vs to beware whom Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church I meane false teachers and false prophets who comming to vs in the clothing of sheepe yet being rauening woolues in their hearts and déedes naming them selues the Church as if they were the onely sheepe of Christ do teach damnable heresies and blaspheme the way of truth To spred the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithfull as Rabsakeh the Assyrian when he did sollicit Ierusalem to fall from God did vse the name of God against the people of God so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemie of the new Ierusalem doth vse the Churches name against the children of the Church He saith that Christians ought to beleeue the Catholike Church and that no Church is Catholike at all but the church of Rome and that we therefore who haue forsaken it haue fallen away from the communion of the catholike Church moreouer that there can not be any hope of saluation out of the Church and therefore that all who eyther leaue the Church of Rome or ioine them selues to any of our reformed Churches must needes be lost for euer This faire but false visard of the catholike Church doth leade many simple men out of the way who shunne the catholike faith while they are afraide least they should fal from the faith dare not ioyne them selues with the Church of Christ least they should be seuered from the coÌ„munion of the Church So that we may iustly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day that which a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of Iewry Ye thinke your selues to deale for the faith O ye Romans ye go against the faith ye do arme your selues with the name of the church ye fight against the church Wherfore being perswaded that the handling hereof would auaile much to ease the ignorance of the vnskilfull and quaile the stubbornnesse of our aduersaries and furder which is the chiefe point the saluation of the elect I for the duety or rather more then duty which I owe to the church of Christ resolued with my selfe hauing such opportunitie of disputation offered to treate of the state of the Catholike of the Roman and of our owne Church The rather for that the foundations of this woorke are already layed in our former disputation wherein it was shewed out of the word of truth that the scripture teacheth all things needefull to saluation that the church may erre while it is militant on the earth that the autoritie of the church is subiect to the scripture Which things being setled it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I haue purposed I meane to lay open the nature and condition of the catholike church the corruption of the Roman and the soundnes of ours But before I enter into the opening of these pointes which I will doo by Gods grace briefly as the time sincerely as the charge requireth first I must desire and craue of you all my hearers most earnestly not that you will giue mée an attentiue eare which of your owne accord ye doo but that with your eare you will bring a minde desirous to embrace the truth In Athenes there were iudges called Areopagites whose order was such as the Heathens write and commend them for it that they bid the pleader pleade without preambles and made him to be sworne that he should tell them no vntruth them selues did heare the cause with great silence while it was pleading and iudged of it with great vprightnes when they had heard it Such Areopagites would I haue you brethren in this our Christian Athenes shew your selues to me warde I wil declare the matter as a pleader ought simply and sincerely without preambles though vnbidden and without vntruthes though vnsworne Giue you as iudges should doo fauourable audience without a partiall preiudice of foreconceiued errors and sentence with the truth without corrupt affections according vnto right and reason And I would to God you would heare me in such sort as Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle whose words of the vnknowen God he beleeued perswaded by the light of truth though against that opinion which hée had foreconceiued God the father of lightes and autour of truth who gaue Paul a fiery tongue to lighten and kindle the mindes of his hearers who moued the hart of Denys to sée the light of godlines and to be set on fier with it vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue that it may serue to open the mysteries of his word and to soften your hartes that the séede of life may fall vpon a fruitfull ground Open our eyes O Lord and we shall sée giue vs fleshy heartes and we shall assent Let thy spirit leade vs into all truth and let thy word be a lanterne to our feete that wée may beléeue the things which thou teachest and doo the things which thou commaundest to the euerlasting glory of thy goodnes and our owne saluation Amen In the treatie of the matter that I set in hand with
Christ most holy Finally sith God hath called the holy church not out of this or that countrey not out of this or that people but out of all nations spred through the whole world for that cause the church is intitled Catholike that is vniuersall not Iewish not Roman not English not of one people or prouince but vniuersall and Catholike coÌ„pacted as it were into one body out of all sorts of estates sexes ages nations Iewes Heathens Greeks Barbarians bond and free men and wemen old and young rich and poore For both the old Church before the birth of Christ which saw the day of Christ to come and was saued did gather children of God vnto her selfe at first out of any people afterward when the grace of God shined chiefly among the people of Israel she did ioyne conuertes to Israel out of the rest and much more the new Church called since Christ was borne hath enlarged her tabernacle as Esay the Prophet speaketh to all nations beginning at Ierusalem Iudaea Samaria and going forward thence euen to the vttermost endes of the earth For God hath not called the circumcised Iewes alone to be his Church as the time was when the Apostles thought through a litle ouersight the Iewes in our dayes haue too presumptuously wéened but Christ being crucified hath broken the stoppe of the partition-wall and is become the chiefe stone of the corner on which a dooble wall ariseth and as Dauid prophecied the Egyptian the Babylonian the Tyrian the Aethiopian the Philistine are borne in Sion and as the Elders in whom is represented the company of the faithfull doo sing vnto Christ Thou hast redeemed vs to God by thy blood out of euery kinred and tounge and people and nation and hast made vs kings and priests to our God we shall raigne vpon the earth Wherefore sith the church which the holy scriptures doo commend vnto vs betokeneth the company and assembly of the faithfull whom God hath chosen Christ hath sanctified and called out of all nations to the inheritance of his owne kingdome the holy Ghost who spake by the Prophets and Apostles doth warrantise me to resolue on my Conclusion that the holy catholike church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods electâ—and chosen You maruell perhaps why I propose this article of the ChristiaÌ„ faith to be discussed by disputation as though either any man stood in dout of it or things not douted of were to be handled as doutfull But if you consider that the true meaning therof which I haue opened most agréeable to the scripture most comfortable to the faithfull is condemned and accursed by the standerd-bearers of the church of Rome you will cease to maruell For in the Councell of Constance in which they condemned Iohn Husse for an heretike they condemned these two sayings as hereticall to be burned with him that there is one holy vniuersall Church which is the whole company of them that are predestinate and that the Church as it is takeÌ„ in this sense for the company of them that are predestinate is the article of our faith Which sayings of his to be counted vngodly it séemed strange to me and so much the more because I perceiued that the Fathers whose words the Papistes will séeme to make great account of when they serue their purpose did vse the same squire to measure out the Catholike church by For Clemens Alexandrinus dooth expresly call it the company of the elect into which are gathered the faithfull and iust whom God did predestinate before the creation of the world Likewise Ambrose hauing said that the honour of God the father is in Christ and in the church defineth the church to be a people which God hath vouchsafed to adopt to him selfe Furthermore Gregorie the Bishop of Rome affirmeth that all the elect are contained within the compasse and circuite of the church all the reprobate are without it And Bernard declaring the church to be the company of all the elect which company was predestinate before the world began doth touch it as a mysterie which he had learned of Paul and saith that he will boldly vtter it As for Austin a man of sharpest iudgement of them all he neither acknowledgeth any city of God but this elect church in his most lerned worke touching the citie of God and in another touching the catechizing of the vnskilfull he saith that all the holy and sanctified men which are which haue been which shal be are citizens of this heauenly Ierusalem and in another touching baptisme against the Donatists against whom he vrgeth the Catholike church most he confesseth that those things in the song of songs the garden inclosed the fountaine sealed vp the lilie the sister the spouse of Iesus Christ are meant of the holy and righteous alone who are Iewes inwardly by circumcision of the hart of which holy men the number is certaine praedestinate before the foundation of the world Wherefore if the Prelates of the Romish Church had had any reuerence I say not of the scriptuâ—es ouer which they play the Lordes as they list but of the Fathers of whom as of orphans they beare men in hand that they haue vndertooke the wardship they would neuer haue wounded or rather burnt in Husses person Clemens Alexandrinus Ambrose Gregorie Bernard and Austin who taught the same point that is condemned in Husse namely that the holy vniuersall Church is the whole company of the elect of God But it is I sée an vndouted truth which a learned man liking the Popes religion but not the Popes presumption hath set downe in writing that amongst the Popes and men like to Popes it is a sure principle If wrong he to be doon it is to be doon when thou maist get a kingdome by it For they wrest the holy catholike Church taught vs in the Creede from the right meaning to the intent they may be kings hoyse vp the sayles of their owne ambition in as much as they apply it like vnskilfull men if they doo it ignorantly impious if wittingly they apply it I say not to the Catholike Church but to the militant nor to that as it is choseÌ„ but as it is visible mingled with hypocrites and vngodly persons The cause why they do so is that all Christians by reason they beleeue the holy Catholike Church may be induced to thinke that the visible Church must be held for Catholike and a visible monarchie must be in the visible Church and the Pope is Prince of the visible monarchie and all Christians must be subiect to him as Prince For this to be the marke whereat the Popes shoote it is as cléere as the light by the verie Extrauagants as they are termed of the Canon law in that royall decrée of Boniface the eighth beginning with these wordes One holy Catholike Church Where from one
indeede more sound then other some according as the word is more purely preaâ—â—ed and the spirit worketh more effectually but all of them sound But where the word of God either is not preached so that there groweth a famine or is preached corruptly mixt with mans word as it were with leauen or darnell or poyson as they who receiue no foode are like to dye through hunger such as eate bread made of corne and â—â—rnel doo fall into a light frenâ—â—â— so must we néedes iudge that churches whose foode is either none or naught are apt to diseases and neere to their deathe For Amos declareth that men are cast away through want of the word in that he telleth Israel that God will send a famine and a thirst of hearing the word of the Lord which when they shall seeke for to and fro and finde no where it shall come to passe that virgins and young men shall faint with thirst and fall and neuer rise againe Now that the corruption of the worde doth hurt too the Apostle noteth in aduertising Timothee that they who teach other doctrine and consent not to the wholesome wordes of Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines are sick and do dote about noysome folies which edifie not to godly faith in so muâ—h that their word doth fret as a kinde of canker which hauing taken hold of one part of the body doth eate out the next partes by litle litle vntill the whole body at last be cleane consumed Which if it come to passe as it must of necessitie vnlesse the better remedy be spéedily prouided for healing of the body that which was a body doth become a carkasse and is no longer a church it is left destitute of the spirit of God which is the soule thereof and of the soules instrument that is the word of God And this death is threatned by Christ to the Iewes in the old church refusing him their Messias therefore shal the kingdome of God be taken from you and geuen to a nation which shall bring foorth the fruites of it and in the new church to the EphesiaÌ„s hauing left their first loue I wil come against thee shortly wil remoue thy candlestick out of his place except thou amend Which two things foretold by our sauiour Christ were fulfilled in the destruction of the two churches of the church of the Iewes within a few yeares when the gospel was remoued from them to the Gentiles of the church of Ephesus many ages after when hauing béen sick first of sundrie heresies it died a while ago of the plague of Mahomet Thus I haue declared as briefly as I could how particular churches are called members of the catholike how they are ordeyned to learn and practise Goâ—s seruice how the good in them are intermingled with the bad the godly with hypocrites finally what their health is what their diseases be and when they must be counted sound when vnsound Which pointes being marked my paines wil be the lesser in opening the Conclusion the two stemmes whereof on what rootes they grow you perceiue already The church of Rome is not the catholike church it is no sound member of the catholike church The church of Rome is not the catholike church What can be more cléere For the catholike church is the church vniuersall the church of Rome is particular So that in my iudgement the Papistes speake monstrously when they call the Romane church the catholike church and make them all one Some will say perhaps that when they call it catholike they meane it to be sound and of a right beleefe such as doth hold the catholike faith as the ciuil law doth terme the right beléeuers catholike Christians and the church of Afrike is named catholike by Cyprian Yet that is false too For they geue the title of catholike church of Rome that they may put into the heads of the vnskilfull that that is the church out of which there is no saluation But out of the church of Rome there haue beene saued innumerable shall be out of the catholike church not one But let it be graunted that they meane by catholike a church holding the right faith I deny that the church of Rome doth hold the right faith and that is the other part of my Conclusion it is no â—ound member of the catholike church Now when I deny it to be a sound member of the catholike church I meane not that it languisheth of a litle sicknes or disease not dangerous which may seeme rather to haue abated somewhat of exquisite health then haue bereft her of all health For as Galen teacheth of the health of the body that it hath a reasonable bredth as you would say and certaine degrees as it were of perfitnes that they who are able to go about their businesse and doo affaires of life are to be counted whole though they enioy not a most perfit health so in the health of churches I déeme there are certaine degrées of sinceritie that they who doo the functions of spirituall life reasonably well are to be counted â—ound although they attaine not to a most absolute soundnesse And for that cause as we iudge our owne churches to be sound although there remaine some distemper in them by the relikes of those diseases wherewith the contagion of the church of Rome had cast them downe so that they could not yet be recouered fully in like sort we iudge of the churches of Germanie which are troubled with the errour of consubstantiation as it were with the grudging of a litle ague if other wise they holde Christian faith and loue soundly and sincerely But the church of Rome is not distempered with a litle ague such as hindereth not the functions of life greatly but is sicke of a canker or rather of a leprosy or rather of a pestilence in so much that she is past hope of recouery vnlesse our Sauiour Christ the heauenly physician doo giue her wholesome medicins to purge her of pernicious humours And therefore I pronounce that the church of Rome is no sound member of the catholike church Which I will proue by two reasons the one of the causes the other of the effectes whereof from the one diseases doo arise in the other they shew them selues by them both they are surely proued I would to God I might discourse hereof at large according as the weightines of the thinges requireth But we must be content to doo as time wil license vs. You wil pardon me therefore I trust if I runne them ouer somewhat hastily and as they say touch and go I will hold out my finger toward the well head gesse you the lion by his pawes Concerning the causes which doo bréed diseases and sicknesse in the church it is as I haue touched already cléere and certaine that they are either the want of food of Gods word
fitter to subuert then to finde the trueth in the pleas of lawiers who bring in sleights of falshode and fraud against innocencie stop vp the waies of iudgement beate down the simplicitie of trueth in dilatory shifts and other such instruments of making gaine by suites which came from the lawes but from the lawes of Iustinian as Bernard saith not of the Lord. These are the lawes then which the Pope vseth and vseth to what end which is the last point He vseth them not to furder the saluation of Gods people but to satisfie if yet a horseleach might be satisfyed his owne and his Courtiers vnsatiable couetousnesse ambition and lust For what hath the outragious tyranny of the beast respected els but that in the Church-offices Church-censures and Church-causes Why hath he withdrawen suites from other places to the Court of Rome Why hath he reserued cases to him selfe Why hath he dispensed with lawes at his pleasure why hath he made and vnmade them He hath taken into his own hands the elections of Bishops from them whom they belonged to The Christian ministers magistrates and people he hath robbed and spoyled of their due and right He hath committed the féeding and guiding of the flock of Christ to brute and beastly creatures He hath let and set the charge or the commoditie rather of churches as he would himselfe and to whom he would by presentations preuentions prouisions reseruations translatiōs permutations aduousons commendaes He hath ordeined Pastors without a roome of Pastorship Ministers without a functiō benefices without cure sacrileges without punishment The goods of the church that is the liuing of the Pastors and maintenance of the poore he hath impaired with pensions embesilled with first fruites made away with appropriations seazed on with sundry wrongs and spent them wastfully with lustes to the common out-cries of men reprouing him for pride for riot for extortion and for simony He hath not permitted the causes of the church to be debated and decided there where they arose as equitie as reason as peace as the iudgement of Councels and Fathers would he should haue doon but he hath remoued them thence to be heard and determined at Rome what by reseruing of cases to him selfe what by fetching matters with the fishers signet what by exempting men from their Ordinaries what by allowing appeales from all coastes to the Lord Apostolike The censures of the church in excommunication ordeined to cut the wicked off as rotten members from the company of Christians he hath vsed and exercised not against the wicked of whom a sinke hath flowed of old time to Rome and ouerfloweth it still not against theeues of whom a Pope witnesseth Rome is made a denne not against murderers for whom there is a sanctuary in the very houses of Cardinals at Rome not against adulterers whose offense was punished with death by the old Romans now they are toyed with not against whoores which set themselues to open sale vnder the Pope who playeth the baude and gaineth by it not against whooremongers whom he preferreth somewhere before maried persons and leacherie before chastitie which the Canonist noteth as a woonderfull case but he hath exercised it against Emperours Princes States and nations that would not serue him at a beck against any magistrate that did but lay hands vpon a clergy-man against any Christian that denied his parish-priest a little tithe against whole assemblies and companies of the faithfull who worshipped as Paul the God of their fathers after that way which Papistes call heresie beleuing all things which are writen in the law and the Prophets Whom he with most vilanous cruelty and treachery as if they had béen shéepe appointed to the slaughter hath ridde away by torments by fire by sword not himselfe for he came not into the iudgement hall least he should be defiled but he hath deliuered them to Pilate to be crucified and when the streames of water did flow with blood at Paris old men and maidens and babes being murdered without all respect of sex or age or state he sang a song of ioy for the French mariage and celebrated with bonfyres and processions at Rome a most outragious act of more then Scythian barbarousnes What should I recken vp his tyrannical lawes wherewith he hath oppressed the Church intolerably Of single life imposed on ministers of the word of auricular confession of the choise of meates apparell and daies of the new and strange canonizing of Saints of pilgrimages to holy land of the vowes of Moonkes and Nunnes of the state and rites of mariage of innumerable ceremonies partly vnfruitfull partly foolish partly impious whereof some sprang from heathens some from the Iewes and some from heretikes What should I say of his wicked dispensations if yet they deserue the name of dispensations and not as Bernard rather doth call them dissipations wherwith there is nothing so holy and religious which he hath not polluted nothing so profane which he hath not permitted that a brother may mary his own brothers wife an vncle his sisters daughter that Church-offices and liuings may be geuen to boyes to Simoniacall marchantes to vnlerned persons and such as are vnfitte for them that one man may haue a pluralitie of benefices that he who hath the benefice néede not attend the office the steward not prouide meate for Gods houshold the seruant and minister not doo the worke of God the angel and messenger not shew the wil of God the shepheard and pastour not féede the flock committed to him that subiects may be discharged of their oth and fealtie licensed to withdraw allegiance from their Prince yea take armes against him yea lay violent hands on the anointed of the Lord that promise may be broken with God and with men that abominations most horrible may be committed that all things diuine and humane may be peruerted right and wrong heauen and earth lawfull and vnlawfull may be confounded together And can it be douted but that this so monstrous so pestilent so misshapen foulnesse and corruption of lawes and of discipline was instituted and inducted by this king of Rome not to set forward the saluation of the Church but to fill his gréedy appetite of gold and lust of dominion Doo not his own Fryers witnesse that all things Priestes Churches altars sacraments crownes in Peters fold Fire incense praiers heauen and God are set out to be sold Doo not his Courtiers allow of their iudgement who say that the pompe of the church would be abated which he sought to increase with anoyance of religion Doo not q Cardinals acknowledge that Christians are wyped of their goods and substance by first
Beth-auen the hie places of Auen are the sinne of Israel Therefore go ye not vp to Beth-auen sayth the Lord. Thus we are expresly commaunded by God to depart and separate our selues from those Churches wherein the right wayes either of his knowledge or of his worship are peruerted Much more from those Churches wherein they are peruerted both But they are both peruerted in the Church of Rome most notoriously as I haue declared It remaineth then that the reformed Churches haue seuered themselues from the Church of Rome most lawfully iustly And therefore our English Papists and the Louanists deale shall I say of ignoraunce or of malice but of whether soeuer they deale very lâ—wdâ—ly who to make vs odious for seuering our selues from the Church of Rome as if we had played the schismatikes therein doe report of vs that we rent our selues from the Catholike Church as the Donatistes did Truly or falsly let the faithful iudge Chiefly sith it is manifest that the Donatists found not any fault with Catholikes either for the seruice wherewith they worshipped God or for the doctrine of God which they preached but wée haue conuicted the Romanists of impietie both for their idolatrous prophaning of his seruice and for their vngodly corrupting of his doctrine and these men who blame vs doe themselues teach that no man ought to ioyne and communicate with that Church whose seruice is idolatrous whose doctrine is vngodly in so much that the Louanists reproue that worthily the Catholike Bishops of Afrike yea S. Austin too for saying that the Prophets Elias and Elisaeus resorted to the Church and seruice of the Israelites when it was stayned with idolaâ—trie and an English Papist condemneth though vniustly them who heare our sermons because it is horrible sinne to giue patient hearing to blasphemies such as he sayth we preach Wherefore if the Romish doctours themselues should sit in iudgement vpon vs for triall of the schisme and Donatisme so to terme it whereof they indite vs no doubt vnlesse their mindes were ouercast in like sort as were the eyes of Elymas they would acquite vs of it and pronounce of Christians as Pilate did of Christ I finde no fault in him For what haue we done in forsaking their synagogue that may deserue the check of a seuere Censour much lesse the condemnation of an indifferent iudge Saue in this perhaps that as mad Fimbria complained of Scaeuola we receaued not the whole weapoÌ„ into our body The Ministers of Christ were bound to preach the word of God they preached it To reproue the peoples sinnes they reproued theÌ„ To suffer afflictions eueÌ„ vnto the shedding of their blood they suffered The people of Christ were bound to heare the pastours voice they heard it To worship God serue him only they did it To professe their faith before men they professed it If against the will of Princes and Magistrates as it fell out in Fraunce they ought to obey rather God then men as the Apostles told the rulers of Israel If by the commandement of Princes and Magistrates which befell to England through Gods most gratious goodnesse and we beséech him it may for euer they were to obey their Princes in the Lord as the Priests and Prophets and people of the Iewes did obey Iosias Wherefore séeing all the reformed Churches not to rehearse them in particular following the same rule which England did Fraunce haue seuered themselues from the church of Rome in such sort as they ought by the law of God they are not seditious because they haue done but they were sacrilegious vnlesse they had done so nether haue we dealt as schismatikes in forsaking but others deale as heretikes in following the whoore whose hearts I would to God that might pearce into which our Sauiour sayth to his touching Babylon Go out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that ye receue not of her plagues And thus haue I declared to you reuerend Syr my iudgemeÌ„t of the Conclusions which you proposed In opening whereof although I haue bene longer partly being moued with the weightinesse of the pointes and partly presuming of the pacience of the hearers then in this place is vsuall yet haue I purposely omitted many things which aduersaries may obiect because I thought they might be produced and answered in the disputation it selfe more conueniently Psal. 51.18 Be fauourable O God to Sion for thy good pleasure build the walles of Ierusalem Iohn Rainoldes to the Christian Reader IT is now fiue yeares almost gentle reader since being occasioned by order of our Vniuersitie to handle and defend these Conclusions in disputation I was moued to make them coÌ„mon vnto many that through the instruction and consolation of the scripture the church might reape some fruite of them Howbeit as Apelles was wont to set forth his pictures at his stall that if any fault were found he might amend it before they were deliuered to such as they were drawen for the like haue I done with mine though not like his by keping theÌ„ in Latin at home as it were that if any thing were iustly blamed in them it might be corrected before I sent them abroad to English men In the which respect though I could hardly resist the importunate desire of sundry frendes of whom some had translated them requesting that I would translate them my selfe or suffer theirs to be printed yet I resisted it hope they tooke it in good part But now being otherwise enforced to publish my conference with M. Hart I haue coÌ„descended vnto their request to do them into English publish them withall The rather because I haue proued herein that the faith professed by the Church of Rome is not the Catholike faith The contrary whereof was the last point that M. Hart auouched So that seeing he brake off conference thereon and would not put the faith of his church to that triall to which he had put the Pope the head of it the godly who will wish that also had bene handled to the confusion of all Poperie may for want of larger repast take this sclenderer as better halfe a loafe men say then no bread And I am the bolder to set it before them because Doctor Stapleton Licentiate Martin who as euill physicians to get themselues worke doo praise vnholesome baggage aboue holesome foode haue discoÌ„mended it Chiefly sith their dealing therein hath bene such that they haue shewed greater stomake theÌ„ wisedome as physicians of no value For of foure pointes that I find reproued by the former of them in the last editioÌ„ of his doctrinall principles one is that I distinguish the militant and visible church from the Catholike after a new sort vnskilfully and fondly The distinction therof I grounded on the scripture fond and new it may be to others not