Conference an Explication of the manner of instructing Christians and that the Churches infallible Authority is necessary for the knowing and understanding the Scripture p. 73 Fourth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture p. 76 Fifth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's alledging here the Practice of the Greek Church and the like which is only to embroil the matter and not to resolve the Difficulty p. 78 Sixth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children p. 82 Seventh Reflexion on Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation that I appear'd embarrass'd in this part of the Dispute p. 86 Eighth Reflexion on another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference where is shewn the manner how all false Churches have been establisht p. 88 Ninth Reflexion on the Churches Visibility that Mr. Claude opposes not the Doctrin I have explain'd till he has first fram'd himself a false Idea of it p. 91 Tenth Reflexion on the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith that it acknowledges no Church but what is visible and that Mr. Claude satisfies not this Difficulty p. 95 Eleventh Reflexion on Mr. Claude's own acknowledgment of the Churches perpetual Visibility the surprizing Doctrin of this Minister p. 99. Twelfth Reflexion Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his Doctrin p. 104 Thirteenth and last Reflexion Mr. Claude's Doctrin shews the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion that there is no Salvation for them but in the Roman Church p. 107 A CONFERENCE WITH M r. CLAU DE Minister of CHARENTON Concerning the AUTHORITY of the CHURCH MADEMOISELLE de DURAS I. The Preparation to the Conference and particular Instruction being in some Doubt about her Religion caus'd me to be ask'd by several Persons of Quality Whether I were willing to Confer with Mr. Claude in her Presence I answer'd I should very readily do it if I saw that such a Conference were necessary for her Salvation She afterwards by the Duke of Richelieu invited me to be at Paris on Tuesday the last of February 1678. and to enter into Conference the next day with this Minister on the Subject she would speak to me about This was to intimate to me that she was willing to see me before the Conference Being with her on the Day appointed she acquainted me That the Point she desir'd to have clear'd with her Minister was that of the Churches Authority which seem'd to her to include the whole Controversy She appear'd to me not likely to come to a Resolution without this Conference so that I judg'd it absolutely necessary I told her she had indeed great Reason to lay her principal and whole Stress on this Article which in effect compreheâ—â—ded the Decision of all the rest as she herself had well observ'd and endeavour'd to make her yet fuller understand the Importance of this Article 'T is a thing said I to her ordinary enough with your Ministers to brag That they cannot be deny'd to believe the Fundamentals of the Faith They say that we believe all they believe but that they believe not all we believe Their Meaning by this is That they have kept all the Fundamentals of the Faith and rejected only what we have added to them They draw thence a great Advantage and pretend that their Doctrine is secure and indisputable Mademoiselle de Duras remembred very well she had often heard them use such Discourses I will make proceeded I but one Remark upon this which is that instead of granting them to believe all the Fundamentals of the Faith we shew that there is one Article of the Creed they believe not which is that of the Universal Church 'T is true they say with the Mouth I believe the Catholic or Universal Church as the Arians Macedonians and Socinians say with the Mouth I believe in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost But as there is reason to accuse them of not believing these Articles because they believe them not as they ought nor according to their true Sense so if we shew the Pretended Reformed that they believe not as they ought the Article of the Catholic Church we may truly say that in effect they reject so important â—an Article of the Creed Mademoiselle de Duras had read my Treatise of the Exposition and told me she remembred that she had seen something in it like to what I now said but I answer'd my Intention in that Treatise was to mention things very briefly and that 't was fit she should now see them a little more at large You must know then said I to her what is meant by this Expression The Catholic or Universal Church and upon this I began to lay for my Ground that in the Creed which was only a bare Declaration of the Faith this Term must be taken in its most proper and most natural Signification and such as is most used amongst Christians Now all Christians by the Name of the Church understand a Society making Profession to believe the Doctrine of JESVS CHRIST and govern it self by his Word If this Society makes this Profession 't is consequently visible That this was the proper and genuine Signification of the Word Church such as was known by every one and us'd in common Discourse I desired no other Witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves When they speak of their Ecclesiastical Prayers of the Churches Discipline of the Churches Faith of the Pastors and Doctors of the Church they mean not the Prayers of the Predestinate nor their Discipline nor their Faith but the Prayers Faith and Discipline of all the Faithful assembled in the exterior Society of GODs People When they say That a Man edifies the Church or that he scandalizes the Church that they receive one into the Church or exclude one out of the Church all this is undoubtedly understood of the exterior Society of GODs People Thus they explain it in the form of Baptism when they say that they are going to receive the Child into the Fellowship of the Christian Church and when for this cause they oblige the Godfathers and Godmothers to instruct the little one in the Doctrin received by GOD's People as it is say they summarily compris'd in the Confession of Faith which we all have And again when they ask of GOD in their Ecclesiastical Prayers to deliver all his Churches from the Throat of the ravening Wolves And yet more expresly in the Confession of Faith Article XXV when they say That the Order of the Church which was established by JESVS CHRIST must be sacred and therefore that the Church cannot subsist if there be not in it Pastors who may have the charge to Teach And in Article XXVI That none ought to drâ—â— aside but that all together ought to keep and maintain the Vnity of the Church submitting to the common Instruction And in fine in Article XXVII That we must
Submission of a divine Faith And well if it be so it remains only to choose between these Churches But then the Calvinistical Church is gone at the very first brush she degrades her self as I may say from the Title of the Church since she finds not in her self Authority enough to cause all those whom she begins to instruct to make an Act of a Christian and an Act of divine Faith not even on the Truth of the Scripture whence 't is suppos'd she ought to learn all the rest But Mr. Claude asks how one shall choose between these Churches Shall it be by Enthusiasm It would be by Enthusiasm as I have observ'd in the Conference if the true Church had not her particular Characters that distinguish her from others She has without going any farther or searching any deeper her Succession in which none can shew her by any positive Fact Interruption Innovation or Change This is what no false Church can so clearly glory of as the true because by glorying of it she would visibly condemn her self There will be then always in the Instruction which the true Church shall give her Children concerning her Condition something that no other Sect can or dare say 'T is by this we would convince if it were in question the Greeks the Ethiopians the Armenians and other Sects which seem in this respect more deceiving because of the apparence of Succession that they shew which also makes them way to attribute to themselves with a little more ground the Authority of the Church But as for the Calvinian Church there is an end of her because she has not so much as an apparent and tolerable Succession and that she dares not as we have now shewn by Mr. Claude's acknowledgment attribute to her self this Authority without which there can neither be any certain Instruction nor any assur'd Foundation of Divine Faith nor in fine any Church 'T would be then in vain for us to lose time here in disputing with the Egyptians and Greeks the Succession they brag of 'T would be no great Labor to shew them the exact Moment of their Innovation The Pretended Reformed know it as well as we and can themselves shew it them when they please So when they pross us to do it 't is not that they think to engage us in a thing impossible or even obscure and difficult but 't is in a word that in so bad a cause there is always something got by digressing and making the consequence of an Argument be lost Thus I had reason to tell Mademoiselle de Duras in one of the Instructions of this Book that if any one disgusted with the Calvinistical Church was tempted to embrace the Religion of the Cophti or of the Greeks 't would be then time to shew them in these Churches that inevitable Moment of their Novelty which they can no more deâ—y than can the other Sects but since the Calvinists with whom we have to do agree it and that none thinks of leaving them but to come to us when we oblige any one to leave them by shewing from their Ministers own Confession the enormous Absurdities of their Doctrin the work is perfected and all the rest on that occasion would be to no purpose And to the end the Method of the Conference and the State of the Question which is there treated may be throughly understood it did not aim directly to establish the Roman Church but only to shew that there is some-where or other a true Church to which we must submit without examining and besides that this cannot be the Calvinistical Church since she will her self have one examin after her which makes her acknowledge the Absurdities we have remark't and by this acknowledgment lose the Title of the Church This done there 's no more question to preach the Roman Church that is that Body of the Church of which Rome is the Head since to him that will choose between two Churches the excluding of the one is the establishing of the other without any need of disputing farther for this purpose Besides that the Roman Church so evidently beare these Characters of the true Church that there is scarce any man of good Sense even amongst our Reformed but agrees that if there be in the world an Authority to which we must submit 't is that of this Church But however when one sees the Absurdities one is forc'd to own in Calvinism for want of having acknowledg'd in the Churches Authority the true Principles of Christian Instruction one soon retires from a Church whose Method and Instruction is so manifestly defective and one is sufficiently sollicited by the Remains of Christianity which one feels within himself to return to the Church from whence he departed The Sixth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children VVE see in Mr. Claude's Discourses that press'd by this want of Authority which ruins all Instruction in his Church he affects to reduce our Dispute to the Instruction of Children and thinks he has found an Advantage by making this Instruction depend on Parents and Nurses who are better known at that Age than the Church and her Ministers By this means he thinks to conceal from us the Churches Authority in the first Exercises and first Acts of Faith we make before we have read the Holy Scripture But he ought first to consider that the Argument I made him regarded not only Children Children are not the only Christians that have not read the Scripture Mr. Claude is not ignorant that there were in the beginning of Christianity not only particular men but also whole Nation which according to the Report of St. Irenaeus had not the Holy Scripture and without reading it ceas'd not to be true Christians The Debate then between us is in general concerning all those that have not read the Holy Scripture of what Age soever they may be and what way soever they may have hapned not to have read it For 't is of those and if they will 't is of those whom St. Irenaeus mentions or of their like that I enquire concerning the Faith with which they believe the Scripture and prepare to read it as being inspir'd by GOD. If they have but an human Faith as Mr. Claude says they are not Christians and if they have a Divine Faith as must be acknowledg'd unless we will fall into an horrible Absurdity 't is then true that Divine Faith without ones having read the Scripture immediatly follows the Churches Doctrin and establishes her infallible Authority 'T is on this Authority that every Christian who takes the Scripture in hand begins by believing with a firm Faith that all he is going to read is Divine and he stays not his believing the truth of this Scripture till he has read it all he believes the first Chapter before he has read the second and he believes all before he has read the first Letter or so much
carefully discern which is the true Church and that it is the Company of the Faithful which agree to follow GODs Word and the pure Religion that depends on it Whence they conclude Article XXVIII That where GODs Word is not received nor any Profession made of subjecting themselves to it and where there is no use of the Sacraments one cannot to speak properly judge that there is a Church 'T is evident by all these Passages and by the common Practice of the Pretended Reformed that the proper natural and generally us'd Signification of the Word Church is to take it for the exterior Society of GODs People amongst whom thô there be found some Hypocrites and Reprobates their Malice say they cannot efface the Title of the Church Article XXVII That is The Hypocrites mix'd in the Exterior Society of GODs People cannot take from it the Title of the true Church provided it be always vested with these exterior Marks the making Profession of GODs Word and the Use of the Sacraments as is said in Article XXVIII This is the Acceptation of the Word Church when we speak simply naturally and properly without Contention or Dispute and if this be the ordinary manner of taking this Word we have reason to say that 't was in this Sense the Apostles made use of it in their Creed where they were to speak in the most ordinary and simple manner as being to inclose in few Words the Confession of the Fundamentals of the Faith In effect this Word Church has in the common Discourse of all Christians been taken to signify this exterior Society of GODs People When by this Word Church is intended the Society of the Predestinate 't is so express'd and they say the Church of the Predestinate When by this Word is meant the Assembly and Church of the First-born Heb. xii v. 23. which are written in Heaven 't is expresly nam'd as we see in St. Paul He takes here the Word Church in a less used Signification for the City of the Living GOD the Heavenly Jerusalem where is an innumerable company of Angels and Spirits of just Men made perfect that is for Heaven where the holy Souls are gathered together Wherefore he adds a word to mark out this Church that is the Church of the First-born who have preceded their Brethren in Glory But when we use the word Church simply without adding any thing the common Practice of all Christians not excepting the pretended Reformed themselves takes it for to signify the Assembly the Society the Communion of those that confess the true Doctrin of JESUS CHRIST And whence proceeds this Custom of all Christians but from the Holy Scripture where we see in effect the word Church commonly taken in this Sense so that this cannot be deny'd to be the ordinary and natural Signification of this Word The word Ecclesia which we render Church originally signifies an Assembly and was principally attributed to the Assemblies heretofore held by the People for the discussing of publick Affairs And this word is us'd in this Sense in the nineteenth Chapter of the Acts when the People of Ephesus were assembled in Fury against St. Paul Act. XIX v. 32. v. 39. v. 40. the Assembly Ecclesia was confus'd And again If ye enquire any thing concerning other Matters it shall be determin'd in a lawful Assembly Ecclesia And in fine When he had thus spoken he dismiss'd the Assembly Ecclesiam This was the use of the word Ecclesia Church amongst the Greeks and in Gentilism The Jews and Christians afterwards made use of it to signify the Assembly the Society the Community of GODs People which makes Profession to serve him There is none but knows that famous Version of the Seventy who translated the old Testament into Greek some Ages before the coming of JESUS CHRIST Of above fifty Passages where this Word is found to be made use of in their Translation there is not any one in which it is not taken for some visible Assembly and very few in which it is not taken for the exterior Society of GODs People In this sense also St. Stephen makes use of it when he says that Moses was in the Church in the Wilderness Acts VII v. 38. with the Angel which spake to him calling by this name Church according to the Usage receiv'd amongst the Jews the visible Society of GODs People The Christians took this word from the Jews and kept it in the same Sense using it to signify the Assembly of those that confess'd JESUS CHRIST and made Profession of his Doctrine This is what is simply call'd the Church or the Church of GOD and JESUS CHRIST And of above an hundred Passages where this word is made use of in the New Testament there are scarce two or three where this Signification is contested by the Ministers and even in the Places where they contest it 't is manifest they do it without reason For Example they will not have this place of St. Paul where he says Eph. V. v. 27. that JESVS CHRIST presented to himself a glorious Church not having Spot or Wrinkle or any such thing but that it is holy and without Blemish This Place I say they will not have it possible to be understood of the visible Church nor yet of the Church on Earth because the Church so consider'd is so far from being without Blemish that it stands in daily need of this Prayer Forgive us our Sins And I say on the contrary that to affirm this glorious and unspotted Church is not the visible Church is manifestly to contradict the Apostle For see v. 25 26. of what Church St. Paul speaks 'T is of that which JESVS CHRIST loved and gave himself for it that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of Water by the Word This Church washt in Water and purify'd by Baptism this Church sanctify'd by the word of Life whether by that of Preaching or by that which is made use of in the Sacraments this Church is without doubt the visible Church The holy Society of the Predestinate is not excluded from it GOD forbid They are the most noble part of it but they are compris'd in this whole They are there instructed by the Word they are there purify'd by Baptism and often also some of the Reprobate are employ'd in these Ministeries They must then be consider'd in this Passage not as making a Body apart but as making the fairest and most noble part of this exterior Society 'T is this Society which the Apostle calls the Church JESUS CHRIST without doubt loves it for he has given it Baptism he has shed his Blood to assemble it there is not any one either call'd justify'd or baptiz'd in this Church who is not called justify'd and baptiz'd in the Name and by the Merits of JESUS CHRIST This Church is glorious because she glorifies GOD because she declares to all the Earth the Glory of JESUS CHRISTs Gospel
should then have believ'd our Lord to be the true CHRIST have judg'd better than all the rest of the Synagogue together See then an indubitable Case in which one may without Presumption do what you think so presumptuous In effect proceeded he 't is no Presumption not to give to the Church what belongs only to GOD alone We cannot give him any thing greater than to believe him blind-fold as you would have us believe the Church But you know that St. Paul at least as much inspir'd as the Church forbears not to declare to the Corinthians That he will not have Dominion over their Faith 2. Cor. i. 23. The Church ought yet less to do it than he We must not then believe her simply on her Word we must examin after her and make use of our Reason as those of Beraea did who examin'd the Scriptures Acts xvii v. 11. to see whether the things were there as St. Paul had preacht them When Mr. Claude held his Peace Here said I are many things But we must first take in hand this indisputable Example you have propos'd to us Upon this I remonstrated to him That the Christian Church had great Priviledges above the Synagogue even considering the Synagogue in the time of its greatest Glory But not to mention this 't was a strange thing to compare the Synagogue falling at the very Moment when its Hardning and Reprobation was clearly markt by the Prophets with the Christian Church which was never to fall But in fine Sir reply'd he one might have then made to this private Person the same Argument you make to us To alledge the Prophets was to no purpose for 't was concerning the Application of these Prophecies to JESUS CHRIST that the Synagogue doubted Thus a private Person could no more believe in JESUS CHRIST without believing at the same time that he understood the Scripture better than all the Synagogue and this is the Argument you make to us There were but few People at the Conference and they were all Hugonots except the Mareschalless De Lorge I saw two of these Gentlemen look on one another at this place with Complacence I was toucht that a Reasoning so visibly ill should make such an Impression on these Spirits and I besought GOD to grant me the Grace that I might by something that should be clear destroy the odious Comparison which was made of his always well-beloved Church with the faithless Synagogue at that very Moment he had assign'd for her Divorce You say then Sir said I to Mr. Claude that the Argument I make may authorise the Error of those private Persons who condemn'd JESUS CHRIST on the Faith of the Synagogue and on the contrary condemn those of Presumption who believ'd JESUS CHRIST alone before the whole Synagogue Yes Sir said he the thing is so repeating his Discourse afresh Let us see then said I whether my Argument has this unhappy Consequence It consists Sir in saying That the Churches Authority being deny'd there is no longer any exterior Means which GOD can make use of to dissipate the Doubts of the Ignorant and inspire necessary Humility into the Faithful To the end such an Argument may be made concerning the time when JESUS CHRIST was condemn'd it must be said that there was not then any exterior Means any certain Authority to which one ought necessarily to submit Now Sir who can say this since JESUS CHRIST was upon the Earth that is the Truth it self which appear'd visibly in the midst of Men the Eternal Son of GOD to whom a Voice from on high bare Witness before all the People Matt. iii. v. 17. This is my well-beloved Son hear ye him who to confirm his Mission rais'd the Dead heal'd those that were born blind and wrought so many Miracles that the Jews themselves confess'd never any Man had done the like There was then Sir an exterior Means a visible Authority But 't was contested 'T is true but 't was infallible I do not pretend Sir that the Churches Authority should never be contested I hear you you Sir who contest it But I say it ought not to be so by Christians I say That she is Infallible I say That there never was any time when there was not on the Earth a visible and speaking Authority to which Men were oblig'd to submit Before JESUS CHRIST we had the Synagogue when the Synagogue was to fail JESUS CHRIST himself appear'd when JESUS CHRIST retir'd he left his Church to which he sent his Holy Spirit Bring again JESUS CHRIST teaching preaching working Miracles I have no longer need of the Church but also take from me the Church I must have JESUS CHRIST in Person speaking preaching deciding with Miracles and an infallible Authority But you have his Word Yes we have without doubt a Word Holy and Adorable but such an one as suffers it self to be explicated and manag'd how one will and makes no Reply to those that misunderstand it I say we must have an exterior Means of resolving Doubts and this Means must be certain And not to go over again the Reasons already alledg'd now there is nothing else requir'd but to answer your Objection concerning the Error of the Synagogue I aver you are so far from being able to say That there was not then a certain exterior Means or speaking Authority to which Men were oblig'd to submit their Judgments that you must avow there was one the highest and most infallible that ever was which is that of JESUS CHRIST and so that there was never any time when the Argument I use against the Protestants could less be made which is That they want an exterior infallible Means to determine Doubts about the Scriptures After I had said this I perceiv'd there was no Reply to be made me In effect There was not a Word said to me upon it thô I held my Peace to hear what Answer would be made I will not say that Mr. Claude stood silent 't is an Effect not much to be expected in Conferences of this nature He repeated something of what he had already said and insisted afresh on what the Apostle himself had declar'd That he had not Dominion over the Consciences I was glad that he return'd to this Passage which I had an intent of Explicating at first but was fain to go to what was most pressing which was the Example of the Synagogue This being done I only askt Mr. Claude whether the Apostles Meaning when he said to the Corinthians We have not Dominion over your Faith was that they must examin after him He saw well that it was not and confest it I concluded Nor does the Church Sir pretend to have Dominion over the Faith when she requires us to believe it in her Decisions because she gives not this Authority to her self no more than St. Paul did but to the Holy Ghost who inspires her You equal then said Mr. Claude to St. Paul Author of the
that one might dispute but I own what you say And well then answer'd I if it be so they are by the Grace of the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd in condition to make an Act of Faith when the Faith shall be preacht to them and I ask when the Scripture acknowledg'd by the whole Church for a Word inspir'd by GOD is shewn them Whether they are not in condition to make with the whole Church this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Mr. Claude would never acknowledge this but always answer'd That they had yet only an human Perswasion about the Scripture and that Divine Faith came not to them till they had read it If they have said I but an human Perswasion they have but a doubtful Perswasion and consequently doubt of that which is according to you the whole Foundation of the Faith In one word they are Infidels No said he they are barely ignorant and you must also say as much of the Faith one has in the Church For 't is not a matter of small difficulty to discern which is the true Church and before one is in a condition to know it of ones self one is ignorant of it or one has at most but a bare human Perswasion on the Faith of ones Parents Thus once again what you shall say upon the Church I will say to you upon the Scripture Let us see Sir answer'd I whether you will say it or whether you will have reason to say it You acknowledge then That a baptiz'd Christian who has neither read the holy Scripture nor heard it read is not in condition to make this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Behold a terrible Inconvenience that a Believer cannot make so essential an Act of Faith 'T is not so amongst us For the Believer who receives the Holy Scripture from the Hands of the Church makes with the whole Church this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that this Scripture is the Word of him in whom I believe And I say that he cannot make this Act of Faith but by the Faith he has already in the Authority of the Church which presents him the Scripture I must here proceeded I throughly explicate but simply nevertheless in what Order Christians are instructed concerning the Truth of the Scripture I speak not of Infidels I speak of baptiz'd Christians and I desire you to observe well this Distinction There are two things here to be consider'd The one is who it is that inspires us with the Act of Faith by which we believe the Holy Scripture as GODs Word and we say that 't is the Holy Ghost On this we are agreed The other thing to be consider'd is what exterior Means the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture and I say That 't is the Church That it is so we need only see the Apostles Creed that is the first Instruction which a Believer receives He has not read the Holy Scripture and already he believes in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost and the Universal Church There is no mention made to him of the Scripture but the believing the Universal Church is propos'd to him as soon as the believing in the Holy Ghost These two Articles enter together into his Heart the Holy Ghost and the Church because he who believes in the Holy Ghost necessarily also believes the Universal Church which the Holy Ghost directs I say then that the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of Baptiz'd Christians is to believe with the Father Son and Holy Ghost the Universal Church and that this is the exterior Means by which the Holy Ghost insinuates into Hearts the Belief of the Holy Scripture If this Means is not certain the Faith in the Scripture will consequently be doubtful But as the Catholic has always found this Means certain there is not any Moment in which he cannot say As I believe that GOD is I believe that GOD has spoken to men and that this Scripture is his Word And the Reason for which he can at first make this Act of Faith is because he never doubted of the Churches Authority and because this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost put in his Heart with the Faith in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST As to what you ask me how he believes the Church that is not precisely our Question 'T is sufficient that we see he always believes it since 't is the first thing the Holy Ghost puts in his Heart and the exterior Means by which he makes him believe the Holy Scripture The Scripture of which he never offers to doubt since he never doubted of the Church which presents it to him This Sir is our Doctrin and because 't is not yours you necessarily fall into the Inconvenience I have noted Because you believe not the Churches Authority as a thing which cannot fail we shew you a Point of time in which you cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and consequently in which you cease to be a Believer Mr. Claude told me here That the Child who recited the Creed spake like a Parrot without Understanding what he said and so we ought not to insist much upon that And besides that I affirm'd gratis That to believe the Universal Church was the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost put into the Heart of the Baptiz'd Christian to insinuate to him by that means Faith in the Holy Scripture In fine That I answer'd not what he askt me concerning the Church nor how we began to believe her for said he The Holy Ghost is the Principle and not the Motive of Believing That 't was requisite therefore I should explicate how we believ'd the Church and by what Motive and that from my manner of speaking it seem'd as if we believ'd her by Enthusiasm and without any Motive inducing us so to do To this I answered I pretended not That the Church was believ'd by Enthusiasm That for the acknowledging her there were divers Motives of Credibility which the Holy Ghost suggested to his Faithful as he pleas'd That he was not ignorant of them but they were not now in Question Our Business now is said I to know whether the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture is not the Churches Authority I speak not gratis when I say That this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of baptiz'd Christians for in the Creed there is mention'd to them the Universal Church and she is propos'd to their Belief without speaking to them of the Scripture 'T is to no purpose to say That Children repeat at first like Parrots both the Creed and the Name of the Universal Church Let us leave said I the Parrot that speaks only by
Memory Let us come to the time when the Christian has the use of Reason and when he can make an Act of Faith By what shall he begin but by what he began to be instructed He believes then the Universal Church before he believes the Scripture In effect make I do not say a Child but any Man whosoever read the Canticle of Canticles in which there is not the least mention of GOD either good or bad In good earnest He believes this Book inspir'd by GOD only because of the Tradition First of the Synagogue and Secondly of the Christian Church that is in one word through the Authority of the Universal Church But let us keep to our Point Let us consider the Christian in the Moment when the Holy Scripture is propos'd to him as the Word of GOD. 'T is the Holy Ghost which makes him believe it we are agreed on that Point But we dispute about the exterior Means of which the Holy Ghost makes use I say That 't is the Church since 't is she in effect which proposes to him the Holy Scripture since he believ'd the Church before he heard of the Scripture since at his opening the Scripture he is in Condition to say I believe this Scripture as I believe that GOD is You say That he cannot make this Act of Faith He is then no Believer and his Baptism is of no use to him We must instruct him as an Infidel saying to him Here is the Scripture which I believe inspir'd by GOD read it Child examin it see whether it be the very Truth or a Fable The Church believes it inspir'd by GOD but the Church may be deceiv'd and thou art not in condition to make with her this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that he himself inspir'd this Scripture If this manner of Instructing strikes an Horror into Christians and leads manifestly to Impiety the Christian must be able at first to make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture propos'd to him by the Church he must consequently believe That the Church is not deceiv'd in giving him this Scripture A◠he receives from her the Scripture he receives from her the Interpretation of it and she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in obliging her Children to believe her Interpretations without examining than she does in obliging us to believe without examining the Scripture it self By this Argument Sir reply'd Mr. Claude you would make every one conclude in Favor of his Church The Greeks the Armenians the Ethiopians we our selves whom you believe to be in error we are nevertheless Baptiz'd we have by Baptism both the Holy Ghost and this Faith infus'd of which you have been speaking Every one of us has receiv'd the Holy Scripture from the Church in which he was baptiz'd every one believes his to be the true Church declar'd in the Creed and at the first he even knows not any other Now if as we have receiv'd without examining the Holy Scripture from the Hand of that Church in which we are we must also as you say receive blindfold all its Interpretations 't is an Argument to conclude That every one ought to continue as he is and that every Religion is good This was in truth the strongest Objection that could be made and thô the Solution of this Doubt appear'd clear to me I was in pain how I might render it clear to those who heard me I spake with trembling seeing it concern'd the Salvation of a Soul and I besought GOD who made me see the Truth so clearly That he would give me Words to express it fully and plainly For I had to do with a Man who heard patiently spake clearly and strongly and in fine pusht the Difficulties to the utmost points I told him I must first distinguish their Case from that of the Greeks Armenians and others he had nam'd who indeed err in taking a false Church for the true but believe at least as indubitable That the true Church wheresoever she is must be believ'd and that she never deceives her Children You are said I to him much farther off for I can lay to your Charge That you do not only like the Greeks and Ethiopians take a false Church for a true but what is undeniable and what you your self confess That you will not have us even believe the true After this Distinction which seem'd necessary to me let us come to your Difficulty Let us distinguish in the Belief of the Greeks and other false Churches what there is of Truth what they have in common with the true Universal Church in a word what comes from GOD from that which comes from human Prejudice GOD by his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of those who are baptiz'd in these Churches That there is a GOD and a JESUS CHRIST and an Holy Ghost Hitherto there is no Error all this is from GOD Is it not true He agreed it They believe also That there is an Universal Church Are they not right in this and is it not a Truth reveal'd by GOD that there is one indeed I expected his Acknowledgment and after he had given it I added That the Greeks and Ethiopians were dispos'd to believe without examining whatever the true Church propos'd to ' em This is what you approve not Sir in this you are separated from all other Christians who unanimously believe That there is a true Church which never deceives her Children I who believe this with them reckon this Belief amongst the things which come from GOD But see where the human Prejudices begin This Baptiz'd being seduc'd by his Parents and Pastors believes the Church in which he is to be the true and attributes in particular to this false Church all that GOD makes him believe in general of the true 'T is not the Holy Ghost that puts this in his Heart Is it not true 'T is without doubt true In this place he begins to believe amiss Here Error begins here the Divine Faith infus'd by the Holy Ghost begins to be lost Happy are those in whom the human Prejudices are joyn'd with the true Belief which the Holy Ghost puts in their Heart They are exempt from a great Temptation and the terrible Pain there is to distinguish that which is from GOD in the Faith of their Church from that which is from Men. But whatever Difficulty Men have to distinguish these things GOD knows them and distinguishes them and there will be an eternal Difference between that which his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of the Baptiz'd when he interiorly disposes them to believe the true Church and that which human Prejudices have added to it by fixing their Spirit to a false one How these Baptiz'd may afterwards disentangle these things and by what means they may get out of the Prepossession that has made them confound the Idea of the false Church in which they are with the Faith of the true Church
however it is and without disputing any farther since this is no place for it we have shewn that 't is a Doctrin acknowledg'd in the new Reformation That every particular Person ought to examin after the Church and consequently ought to believe That he may happen to understand the Scripture better than she and all her Assemblies Those that abhor this Presumption or that upon Examination find not in themselves this false Capacity have no more to do but to seek their Salvation in another Church than that in which so prodigious a Doctrin is profess'd The Third REFLECTION On another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference An Explication of the manner of Instructing Christians and That the Churches infallible â—â—thority is necessary for the knowing and understanding of Scripture THE second Absurdity I promis'd to make Mr. Claude and every good Protestant avow is That unless there be acknowledg'd in the Church an Authority after which there must be no more examining nor doubting there is a Necessity of setting a Point of time in which the Believer at the Age of Reason cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and in which consequently he must doubt whether it be true or false I assign'd for this Point of Doubt all the time in which a Christian for what cause soever has not read the Holy Scripture Mr. Claude here cries out against so detestable a Proposition and I persist to say That he not only own'd it in the Conference but also that in what manner soever he here endeavours to turn things he has not been able to do it so well but that he still confesses it in the Relation In truth this is one of the Places in which I least remember our exact Words But there is still enough to convince him since if this Relation becomes publick every one will see he here acknowledges in formal Terms That he who has not yet read the Holy Scripture believes it to be GODs Word with human Faith because his Father told him so which is the State of a Catechumen and when he has himself read this Book and felt the Efficacy of it he believes it to be GODs Word no longer with an human Faith because his Father told him so but with a divine Faith because he has himself immediatly felt its Divinity and this is the State of a Believer 'T is then true that he has acknowledg'd the Time I undertook to shew when a Baptiz'd Christian is not in a Condition to make an Act of Supernatural and Divine Faith upon the Holy Scripture since he believes it to be GODs Word only by an human Faith and divine Faith cannot come till after the reading of it In what manner soever he turns this human Faith 't is an horrible thing that a Baptiz'd Christian at the Age of Reason cannot make upon the Scripture an Act of that Faith by which we are Christians For thence it follows That a Christian at his first going to read the holy Scripture ought neither to be inclin'd of himself or induc'd by any other to say at opening it I believe as I believe that GOD is that the Scripture I am going to read is his Word On the contrary they must make him say I am going to examin whether henceforth during the rest of my life I ought to read this Scripture with such a Faith 'T is to overthrow the whole Order of Instruction 't is to lose the Fruit of Baptism 't is to reduce Baptiz'd Christians to instruct their Children as if they were not so and that they were yet to deliberate of what Religion they should be And what Mr. Claude says concerning the Scripture the same he must say on the Faith of the Trinity on that of the Incarnation on that of JESVS CHRISTs Mission and the Redemption of Mankind For that which forces Mr. Claude and every Protestant to say That the Believer who has not read the holy Scripture can believe it only with an human Faith to be inspir'd by GOD is That otherwise they must acknowledg an Act of Divine Faith on the Churches sole Authority Which would be to own this Authority as infallible and ruin the very Foundations of all the new Reformation But the same Argument returns upon all the Articles of our Faith and if the Faithful can believe with a divine Faith both the Trinity and the Incarnation and Mission of JESVS CHRIST on the sole Authority of the Church and before he has read the holy Scripture I shall always conclude with equal Certainty That the Churches Authority will be infallible By the Consequence then of Mr. Claude's and all the Protestants Principle we must in reducing the Christians who go to read the holy Scripture to a bare human Faith concerning this Scripture reduce them at the same time to the like on the most Essential Articles of our belief This was not the Method of our Forefathers they did not thus teach Christians to instruct their Children When they baptiz'd them in their Infancy they said in that young Age Credo I believe No matter thô our Reformers have chang'd this Form 't was us'd in the very first Ages and will be always holy and venerable maugre all they can do But this Form us'd towards Children shews us that when they shall have the use of Reason they must be immediatly taught to make an Act of Faith and time must not be lost in exciting them to it They will then be capable of it they may say the same Creed they should have said if they had been baptiz'd at the Age of Understanding and to reduce them to a Faith barely human is to take from them the Grace of their Baptism and justify the Practice as well as the Doctrin of the Anabaptists And I conjure the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion not to believe that I alledge here the Anabaptists by way of exaggeration or to render them odious these manners are not beseeming Christians I am ready to make good that the Doctrin taught here by Mr. Claude and which all Protestants must teach with him introduces Anabaptism For if the Acts of divine Faith must be held in suspense till such time as one has read the holy Scripture and be instructed by himself if all the Acts that precede this Instruction are not Acts of Christians since they have for their foundation only an human Faith for the same reason Bapâ—â—â— must be deferr'd till that time and we must not make Christians that at the Age of Reason are uncapable to produce Acts of their Religion The Fourth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture 'T IS in vain for Mr. Claude to answer us That he will make us the same Argument for the Church as we make him for the Scripture for to do this as we shew him a point of time which even at the use of Reason necessarily precedes
as open'd the Book He forms not then his Faith by the reading of the Scripture this Reading finds his Faith already form'd this Reading does but confirm to a Christian all he already believ'd and all he had already found in the Churches Belief He believ'd then before all things that the Church deceiv'd him not and by this he began to make the Acts of a Christian Children are not instructed in any other manner When they hear their Parents 't is the Church they hear for our Parents are our Teachers only as they are Children of the Church 'T is for this reason the Holy Ghost sends us to them Ask thy Father and he will shew thee thy Elders and they will tell thee St. Basil Ep. 29. so great a Divine justifies himself and at the same time confounds the Hereticks by alledging to them the Faith of his Mother and of his Grandmother St. Macrina and he herein imitates St. Paul who praises Timothy for having an unfeigned Faith 2 Tim. 1. 5. which dwelt first in his Grandmother Lois and his Mother Eunice The meaning is that true Doctrin ought always to descend from hand to hand and that there shall always be a true Church to which none can ever shew her beginning nor find in her State those Marks of Interruption and Novelty which all other Sects bear on their Front Christian Parents joyn'd to this Church joyn their Children to her and put them at the feet of her Ministers to be there instructed 'T is not to be imagin'd that Children in whom Reason begins to appear because they know not how to rank their Discourses are incapable of resenting the Impressions of Truth They are seen learn to speak in an Age yet more infirm in what manner they learn by what they make the Distinction between the Noun and the Verb the Substantive and the Adjective neither themselves know nor can we who have learnt by this Method well explicate so deep and hidden it is We learn almost in the same manner the Churches Language A secret Light guides us in both these States in the one 't is Reason in the other Faith Reason discovers it self by little and little and so does Faith infus'd by Baptism We must have Motives to fix us to the Churches Authority GOD knows them and we know them in general in what manner he ranks them how he makes these innocent Souls perceive them is the Secret of his Holy Spirit However 't is certain that this is done and by this he begins As this is the first Christian Act we make and as on this Foundation all is built so it subsists for ever The time will come when we shall know more distinctly why we believe and the Churches Authority will from day to day become stronger in our minds The Scripture it self will fortify the Chains which bind us to her but we must always have Recourse to the Original that is to believe on the Churches Authority What Age soever we are at 't is by this we begin to believe the Scripture we continue also on the same Foundation and St. Augustin was already perfect in the Ecclesiastical Science Cont. Ep. Fudam 5. when he said He would not believe the Gospel if the Authority of the Catholick Church did not oblige him to it I could were it in dispute shew the same Opinion in the other Fathers We must always re-ascend to the first Principle and this is the first Principle that fixes us to the Church Let them not reproach to us this Vicious Circle The Church makes us believe the Scripture the Scripture makes us believe the Church This on both sides is true in different Respects The Church and the Scripture are so made for one another and do so perfectly suit with one another that they support each other like Stones in an Arch which mutually keep up the Building All Nature is full of such Examples I bear the Staff on which I lean the Flesh binds and covers the Bones which sustain it and all things in the whole Universe mutually aid one another So it is with the Church and the Scripture There was but one Church such as JESVS CHRIST founded to which such a Scripture as we have could be address'd that is such an one as durst promise the Church in which this Scripture was made an eternal continuance If any one receives the Scripture by the Scripture I will prove to him the Church if he acknowledges the Church by the Church I will prove to him the Scripture but since we must begin on one side I have clearly enough shewn by Mr. Claude's Confession that if we begin not by the Church the Divinity of the Scripture and the Faith we ought to have in it is in Danger Wherefore the Holy Ghost begins our Instruction by fixing us to the Church I believe the Catholick Church Amongst our Adversaries one must examin before he believes and he must before all things examin the Scripture by which he examins all the rest 'T is not enough to have read some particular Verses some Chapters some Books till such time as one has read all conferr'd all examin'd all Faith continues in suspense since 't is by this Examen that 't is form'd Amongst the true Christians one believes at first Thy Faith hath saved thee saith JESVS CHRIST Thy Faith Tertul. de Praescrip 14. observes Tertullian in that divine work of Prescriptions and not thy being verst in the Scriptures There 's no need of passing through Opinions through Doubts through the Uncertainties of human Faith I never chang'd says St. Basil What I believ'd from my Infancy Ep. 79. has only been strengthned in my following years Without passing from one Opinion to another I have only perfected what was at first given me by my Parents As a Grain which is sown of little that it was becomes big but continues always the same in it self and without changing its Nature takes only Increase so is may Faith increas'd and this is not a Change in which one passes from worse to better but an Accomplishment of a Work already begun and the Confirmation of Faith by knowledge In this manner we pass not as amongst our Reformed from a State of doubt to a State of Certainty or as Mr. Claude loves better to speak from an human Faith to a divine Divine Faith is declar'd at first by the Churches first Instructions and this could never be did not her infallible Authority prevent all our Doubts and all Examination 'T is thus Cont. ep Man 4. as says St. Augustin 't is thus I say That those believe who not being able to arrive at Vnderstanding secure their Salvation by the simplicity of their Faith If we must always examin before we believe we must begin by examining whether there is a GOD and hearkning for some time with a kind of Suspension of Mind to the Arguments of the Wicked That is we must pass to the Belief
not this Difficulty TO shew Vid. Sup. p. 2 3. seq that the Word Church signifies in the Creed a visible Church I laid for a Foundation that in a Confession of Faith such as this Creed was Words were us'd in their most natural and most simple Signification and I added that the word Church signify'd so naturally the visible Church that the Pretended Reformed Authors of the Chimera of an invisible Church in all their Confession of Faith never us'd the Word Church in this Sense but only to express the visible Church cloath'd with the Sacraments with the word and with all the publick Ministery See the Passages of the Confession of Faith I have related with the Consequences I have drawn from them I was not the first who made this Remark 't was a National Synod of the Pretended Reformed These Gentlemen who had so much preacht the invisible Church and who being press'd upon the Succession grounded on this foundation the invisible Succession of which they made use wondred they had not spoken one single word of it in their Confession of Faith where on the contrary the word Church is always taken for the Visible Church Surpriz'd with this Language so natural to Christians but so little conformable to the Principles of their Reformation they made this Decree in the Year 1603. Syn. de Gap sur la Conf. de Foy art 3. in the Synod of Gap in the Chapter which has for its Title On the Confession of Faith 'T is by this all the Synods begin and the first thing that is done in them is to review this Confession of Faith which gave occasion to the Printers to re-imprint it with this Title Syn. de Privas 1612. forbidden in the Synods The Confession of Faith of the Reformed Churches review'd and corrected in the National Synod But let us come to the Decree of Gap of which these are the words The Provinces shall be exhorted to consider in the Provincial Synods in what Terms the XXV Article of the Confession of Faith ought to be coucht forasmuch as being to express what we believe touching the Catholick Church of which mention is made in the Creed there is nothing in the said Confession that can be taken but for the militant and visible Church as also in the XXIX Article they shall see whether it be fit to adde the Word Pure to the Word the Church which is in the said Article and in general all shall come prepar'd on the matters of the Church We have related the Substance of this XXV Article You may in the same place see the XXVI Vid. Sup. p. 3. XXVII and XXVIII Articles And for the XXIX Article it says that the true Church ought to be govern'd according to the Policy which our Lord JESUS CHRIST has establisht that is that there be Pastors Overseers and Deacons to the end the pure Doctrin may have its Course and the Assemblies be kept in the Name of GOD. The Addition of the word pure Church which they deliberated to add to that of true is founded on a Doctrin of the Pretended Reformed which says that a true Church may not be pure because with the essential Truths it may have Errors mixt I say even gross and considerable Errors against the Faith And this is one of the Mysteries of the new Reformation which Mr. Claude will explain to us by and by but 't is not here in question What there is important is that these People who say they are sent of GOD to raise again the pure Doctrin of the Gospel being to explicate as themselves declare in their Confession of Faith the Church of which mention is made in the Creed spake nevertheless only of the militant and visible Church I could easily tell you the Reason 't is that this Church of which mention is made in the Creed is indeed the visible Church 't is that the word Church naturally imports this Visibility and the word Catholick is so far from derogating from it that it supposes it 't is that in a Confession of Faith one often happens to speak rather according to the natural Ideas the words bear with them than according to the Refinements and Interpretations one has invented to free himself out of some Difficulty Thus the invisible Church presented not it self at all to our Reformed when they fram'd their Confession of Faith the sense of the visible Church appear'd only in it there was nothing seen in this but natural till the Year 1603. In 1603 they awoke they began to find it strange that a Church which founded her Succession in the Idea of an invisible Church and of a Church of the Predestinate should not have said one word of it in her Confession of Faith but have left it for evident that the Natural Signification of the word Church always imported a visible Society so that to speak truly the Succession of the Church would no longer be shewn without shewing the Succession of her Visibility a thing utterly impossible for the new Reformation 'T was this inclin'd the whole Synod to desire the going again over this Article and to exhort the Provinces to come ready prepar'd upon the matters of the Church which had never been well understood amongst the new Reformed which are not yet understood and which will make all those Catholicks that can throughly understand them But the going over this Article again was a very nice Affair 'T was to awaken all understandings 't was too visibly to mark the Defect and give the Printers more occasion than ever to entitle it The Confession review'd and corrected Thus in the Synod of Rochel held in 1607 't was resolved not to add or diminish any thing in the XXV and XXIX Articles nor to meddle afresh with the matter of the Church By the decision of this Synod the visible Church alone appears in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith the invisible Church has no part in it and one draws from it Consequences as one can That Vid. Sup. p. 4. which I draw pinches them for if the Church appears only as visible in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith and if besides they assert this Confession of Faith as conformable in all points to the Scripture they must tell us that this manner of explicating the Church comes from the Scripture and that from the Scripture it has pass'd naturally into the ordinary Language of Christians into the Confessions of Faith and consequently into the Creed which is not only the best authoriz'd of all Confessions of Faith but also the most simple Mr. Claude answers us Man Anf. q. 1. that the Custom changes and that by Process of time Words often depart from their first and natural Signification and that besides thô it should be true as I have said that the word Church taken simply should signify the visible Church the word Vniversal would change this Signification But he shall not escape us by this
A CONFERENCE WITH M r. CLAUDE MINISTER OF CHARENTON CONCERNING The Authority of the CHURCH By JAMES BENIGNE BOSSUET Bishop of Meaux Councellor to the most Christian King and formerly Preceptor to the DAUPHIN First Almoner to the DAUPHINESS Faithfully done into English out of the French Original Publisht with Allowance LONDON Printed for Matthew Turner at the Lamb in High-Holbourn 1687. ADVERTISEMENT I Had no intent to publish either this Conference or the Instructions it was accompany'd with They both had for their Object the Conversion of a particular person and having wrought their Effect there was no obligation to make any farther noise about ' em But as I was not 〈◊〉 to publish the Recital of it so neither did I affectedly strive to keep conceal'd I gave a Copy to Mâ—demoiselle de Duras who requested it 〈…〉 but just 〈◊〉 I consented without difficulty to the communicating it to some Gentleâ—â—â— of the Pretended Reformed Religion that desir'd to see it because 't was thought it might be instrumental to their Conversion The same Motive 〈…〉 to impart it to some other of these Gentlemen either by my self or by the Interposition of Friends Thus it pass'd into several hand◠〈…〉 Copies taken than I knew of 〈◊〉 they were spread 〈◊〉 they were alter'd 〈…〉 the Relation I had made or turn'd it according to their 〈…〉 't was printed at Tholoze from a very corrupt 〈…〉 I can no longer forbear giving it to you as I had my self set it down with great Fidelity and Exactness At my coming forth from the Conference I related it entirely to the Duke and Dutchess of Richâ—lieu in the presence of the 〈◊〉 Tâ—stu The particular zeal they had for the Conversâ—â—â— of Mademoiselle de Duras made them desire me so to doâ— I had before 〈…〉 to them the precedent Conversations The next day I made the same Recital to some of my particular Friends amongst whom was the Bishop of Mirâ—poix I was full of the matter and related it naturally All those Gentlemen 〈◊〉 me to put it in writing whilst 't was fresh in my memory alledging several Reasons to perswade me that this Labor would not â—e 〈◊〉 I believâ—â— it 〈…〉 I was 〈◊〉 to write with the same swiftness which is usual when one 〈◊〉 dâ—wâ— facts that are present without troubling ones self about the Style and these Gentlemen observ'd in the written Narrative the same sinplicity they had discern'd in my recounting it by Word of Mouth Mademoiselle de Duras acknowledg'd my Report to be exactly true and I hope those that shall read it without 〈◊〉 will have the same Opinion of it Several Copies of my Relation being dispers'd as I have told you one 〈◊〉 into the hands of Mr. Claude as himself avâ—rs and he on his side together with an Answer to the Instructions I had particularly given Mademoiselle de Duras gave abroad a Relation of the Conference very different from this of mine To speak freely what I think his Relation is neither for his Credit nor minâ— We hold in it round about long Discourses languishing inâ—ipid and inconsequent enough 〈◊〉 Mr. Claude's Relation we often return back to what we had left without perceiving how we get 〈◊〉 again We did not act in that mannâ—r and our Dispute was consequential and close enough In this sort of Contests men naturally grow hot as in a kind of wrestling and so the sequel is more animated than the Beginnings Men try one another and if I so speak in the first Blows that are given when they have a little explain'd themselves when they think they have discover'd where each Party places the Difficulty and found as I may say one anothers weak sides all that follows is more lively and pressing Whether all this be as natural in Mr. Claude's Discourse as in mine the Reader shall be Judge As his is turn'd many will scarce believe but that it has been adjusted and trimm'd up on the perusal of mine But I will not stay upon these Reflexions 'T is with Discourses as with Pictures in which every one cannot discern what is Original and as I may say from the first hand Nor will I here make use of the odious Reproach of Insincerity One does not always so exactly remember either the things that were said or the Order in which they were deliver'd We often confound in our Minds our After-thoughts with what we indeed said in the Dispute and one is frequently found to have chang'd the Truth without any Design of lying What I shall say of Mr. Claude the same he may say of me Our Conversation was in private and neither of us can produce indifferent Witnesses thus every one will judge of the Truth of our Recitals according as himself is prepossess'd I pretend not to draw any Advantage from the Success of the Conference which was follow'd by the Conversion of Mademoiselle de Duras 't is a Work of GODs for which we ought to give him thanks 't is an Example for those that are well dispos'd but not an Argument for the Obstinate The Catholicks will look on this Change in one manner and the Pretended Reformed in another So that should Mr. Claude and I set our selves each of us to justify his Relation the Result would be only a Dispute with which the Publick has nothing to do And what great matter is it will the Reader say which the two had the better The Cause resides not in these two men who would appear extremely vain and so of little Credit if they would have every one whether Friends or Adversaries believe them equally 〈◊〉 their Word In these Altercations the best Course a prudent Reader can take is to search into the Bottom of the Matters and without regarding the personal Facts to consider the Doctrin laid down by each Party The Subject treated of in all this Relation is no less clear than important 'T is the Authority of the Church Our Adversaries make little account of this Dispute being always heard to say that we must come to the Bottom setting aside as an unnecessary Formality all the Arguments drawn from the Authority of the Church as if it were not an essential Part of the Bottom to examin by what Authority and what Means JESUS CHRIST would have Christians resolve themselves on the Disputes that should spring up in his Church Catholicks pretend that this Means is to hear the Church it self They pretend that a particular Member ought not to resolve but with the whole Body and that be hazards all when he resolves any other way They pretend that to know in what Church we ought to stay we need only know which it is that was never accus'd of being form'd by separating it self that was extant before all Separations from which all others have separated Without going forth of our House our very Parents will shew us this Church Deut. xxxii v. 7. Ask thy Father and he will shew thee thy Elders and they will
tell thee According to this Rule whoever can shew a whole Church a whole Society of Pastors the Beginning of its Being and a Time whensoever during which it was not has convinc'd it of not being a Church truly Christian This is our Pretention and we pretend not that this Question is about a simple Formality We averr that it concerns a fundamental Article contain'd in these words of the Creed I believe the holy Catholick Church an Article besides of such importance that it carries with it the Decision of all the rest But as this Point is decisive so it is no less clear and it cannot be long spoken of but one side or other will shew their weakness Let us say better when a Catholick never so little instructed undertakes a Protestant upon this Point this Protestant how able and subtil soever will find himself reduc'd not always indeed to hold his Peace but what is no less strong than Silence to say nothing when he shall attempt to speak but visible Absurdities This is what here befell Mr. Claude thrô the sole Defect of his Cause for 't will appear that he defended it with all possible Skill and so subtilly that I fear'd for those who heard him for I know what St. Paul writes of such Discourses But in fine we must boldly say The Truth gain'd a manifest Victory What Mr. Claude avows ruins his Cause The Places where he stood without an Answer are indeed such as suffer none And to the end it may not be said I assert what I please or that I now desire what I ere while disclaim'd to be believ'd on my own word two things will shew whatever Opinion may be had of me that in this Point I must necessarily he believ'd The first is that relying on the force of Truth and his Promise who said Luk. xxi v. 15. that he will give us a Mouth and Wisdom which our Adversaries shall not be able to resist where-ever Mr. Claude shall say that he has not acknowledg'd what I make him acknowledge in the Recital of the Conference I engage my self in a second Conference to draw again from him the same Acknowledgment and where-ever he shall say that he was not without an Answer I will force him without any other Argument but those he has already heard to Answers so visibly absurd that any men of good Sense shall acknowledge he had far better have been silent than have made use of them And for fear it should be said for in an Affair that concerns the Conversion of Souls we must as much as may be prevent all Objection for fear then once again it should be said that Mr. Claude engag'd himself in these Inconveniences by ill management I on the contrary affirm that this Advantage is so inherent to our Cause that there is no Minister no Doctor no man living but must in the same manner sink under the like Arguments Those who will make trial of it shall see that this is no vain Promise If any one says I presume too much on my strength now that I examin my self in the presence of GOD if such a Presumption had made me speak I should disown all I had said Instead of promising my self any Advantage I should esteem my self already vanquisht by trusting only to my own Arm and my own Weapons and so far should I be from defying the strong as David that I should rank my self among those Ps 63. of whom the same David sings that the Arrows of Children have pierc'd them and their own Tongue too weak to defend them is in fine turn'd against themselves The Instruction I offer in general to the Pretended Reformed I particularly offer those of the Diocess of Meaux whom I am above all the rest oblig'd to bear in my Bowels Those that shall refuse this Christian Instruction no less peaceable fraternal and paternal than concluding and decisive I shall say to them in the words of St. Paul with sorrow and groaning there being no comfort in the loss of ones Children and Brethren Acts. xx v. 26. I am pure from the Blood of them all This is the first thing which will shew that I impute nothing to Mr. Claude which might give me any Advantage The second is that Mr. Claude himself in the midst of what he opposes against me and amongst all the Turns he gives our Dispute still acknowledges at last what was in contest between us or else shifts it off in such a manner as plainly shews he cannot entirely disown it But this will be better understood by those who after the Instructions and the Conference shall read the Reflexions I make on Mr. Claudes writing Some Attention is requisite to comprehend the whole sequel of these Instructions for whatever Easiness it has pleas'd GOD to let us find in a matter in which he shews the most ignorant as well as the most learned the plain way of Salvation yet would be not discharge any one of the Attention he is capable of and since the following Discourses had their Rise from the XIX and XX Articles of my Exposition the reading of these two Articles which will take up but half a quarter of an hour will facilitate the Vnderstanding of all this Work thô I moreover hope that it is of it self sufficiently intelligible Besides the Reading of them will not be unuseful to Catholicks who ordinarily too much neglect Books of Controversy Grounded on the Faith of the Church they are too careless in perusing such Works by which their Faith might be confirm'd and in which they might find means to reduce the Erring This was not the Vse in the first Ages of the Church the Treatises of Controversy written by the Fathers were sought after by all the Faithful Conversation being one of the Means propos'd to us by the Holy Ghost for the gaining of Vnbelievers every one endeavour'd to render his profitable and edifying by such Reading The Truth insinuated it self by so sweet a Means and Conversation won those whom a premeditated Dispute would perhaps but have made more averse But to the end the Works we make of Controversy may be read as those of the Fathers were let us endeavour as the Fathers did to fill them not only with exact and found Doctrine but also with Piety and Charity and let us as much as we can correct the Dryness not to say the Sourness which is too often found in such Books A TABLE OF THE ARTICLES CONFERENCE I. THE Preparation to the Conference and particular Instruction p. 1 II. The Conference p. 20 III. The Sequel of the Conference p. 49 REFLEXIONS THE first Reflexion on Mr. Claude's Answer to the Acts extracted from the Discipline of the Pretended Reformed p. 58 Second Reflexion on one of the Propositions acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference and on the Examen he prescribes after the Churches Judgment p. 64 Third Reflexion on another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the
which the Holy Ghost has put in their Hearts with the Creed is not now in debate and 't is sufficient that we have seen in all the Baptiz'd a Belief of the Church which comes to them from GOD distinguisht from the Thought which comes to them from Men. This being so I affirm That to this Belief of the Church which the Holy Ghost puts in our Hearts with the Creed is fixt a firm Faith That we must believe this Church as certainly as the Holy Ghost to whom the Creed it self immediately joins her and that this Faith in the Church is the Cause the Believer never doubts of the Scripture I stopt a moment to ask whether I were understood Mr. Claude answer'd That he understood me perfectly And if it be so said I to him you ought to see the Inconvenience into which your Belief casts you and you ought also to see That I am not in the same by mine You not only say That we must not believe a false Church but that we must not even believe the true one without examining what she says and in this you speak against all other Christians Mademoiselle de Duras interpos'd saying in this place This is what must be answer'd by Ay or No. I said it indeed answer'd Mr. Claude and I did not stick to say it at first So much the better reply'd I. We shall soon see which of us two has Reason and in the clear State things have been put in by our reciprocal Discourses the Truth will soon appear on one side or other From the time you lay it down for certain That the Church even the true one may deceive us the Faithful cannot believe on the Churches sole Faith That the Scripture is the Word of GOD. He may believe it with an human Faith answer'd Mr. Claude but not with a divine Faith But human Faith reply'd I is always defective and doubting He doubts then whether the Scripture be inspir'd by GOD or no. Mr. Claude here pray'd me to remember what he had already said That he was not in Doubt but in Ignorance As a Man said he not skill'd in Diamonds being shewn one and askt whether he believes it to be good or bad knows nothing of it neither is he in Doubt but in Ignorance In like manner when a Master teaches some Opinion in Philosophy the Scholar who understands not yet what he means has no formal Doubt but is in a bare Ignorance So is it with those to whom the Holy Scripture is the first time given And I said I affirm That he doubts and that he who is not skill'd in Diamonds doubts whether that which is presented to him be good or bad and that the Scholar with Reason doubts of all his Master in Philosophy tells him till he sees it clear because he believes not his Master Infallible and by the same Reason he who believes not the Church Infallible doubts of the Truth of GODs Word which she proposes to him This is call'd Ignorance and not Doubt still said Mr. Claude And I made this Argument To doubt is not to know whether a thing be or not The Christian of whom we speak knows not whether the Scripture be true or no He is then in Doubt Tell me what is it to doubt but not to know whether a thing be or no To this there was no Answer but that this Christian did not in any manner doubt of the Scripture but was only ignorant of it But said I he is not like an Infidel who perhaps never heard any mention of it He knows That the Gospel of St. Matthew and St. Paul's Epistles are read in the Church as GODs Word and that none of the Faithful doubt it Can he believe with them as certainly as he believes GOD is That this Word is inspir'd by GOD You have said That he cannot make this Act of Faith He that cannot make an Act of Faith on an Article propos'd to him makes at least as I may so say an Act of Doubt Mr. Claude still answer'd That he was in a pure Ignorance And well let us leave contesting about Words He does not Doubt if you please but he knows not whether this Scripture be a Truth or a Fable he knows not whether the Gospel be an History inspir'd by GOD or a Tale invented by Men. He cannot then make an Act of Divine Faith upon this Point nor say I believe as GOD is that the Gospel is also from GOD. Do you not acknowledg That he cannot make this Act and that he has nothing but an human Faith He again freely confess'd That he knew nothing else Well Sir 't is enough In fine then there is a Point of Time when every Baptiz'd Christian knows not whether the Gospel be not a Fable This is given him to examin See to what we must come when we are set to examin after the Church We might discourse without end But we have said all that can be said on both sides and we should do nothing but begin again 'T is for every one to examin in his Conscience how he can maintain That a Baptiz'd Christian ought to have been a Moment without knowing whether the Gospel be a Truth or a Fable and that amongst other Questions which one may make in ones Life this also must be given him to examin It appear'd to me by the Countenance of Mademoiselle de Dwas that she understood 〈◊〉 I notwithstanding expected a little And Mr. Claude rose up Mademoiselle de Duras rose with us and coming to us said I could wish That before you broke up something might be said concerning the Separation The thing is done answer'd I. As soon as 't is certain That one cannot examin after the Church without falling into an insupportable Pride noâ— without doubting of the Gospel there is nothing more to be 〈◊〉 Every one need only consider whether he will doubt one Moment of the Gospel and also whether he finds himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all the Synods in the World and than all the rest of the Universal Church But since Mademoiselle desires some particular Instruction concerning the Separation I beseech you Sir give me a Moment more I shall propose to you essential Facts on which â—f I be not deceiv'd you must soon agree I ask you Sir Whether the Arians separated from the Church and whether their Sect when it appear'd was not new They did not said he separate from the Church they corrupted it He set himself to represent with a great deal of Exaggeration â—ow they drew with them the whole Church 'T is not so Sir said I You know That St. Athanasius St. Basil St. Gregory Nazianzen and many other Holy Bishops held for the Truth and that a great Body of People follow'd them You know That all the West and Rome it self notwithstanding the Fall of Liberius was Orthodox But let us leave all this said I to him in what Number soever they separated
there was a Church before them from which they brake and against which they set up another Church No said he They corrupted it Ha Sir reply'd I What Difficulty is this Never any Hereticks separated but by corrupting some of the Churches Children and separating with them from the Church in which they had all been baptiz'd But in fine tell me Sir Was not the Sect of the Arians and that Church which is nam'd the Arian new If you mean Sir answered he That Arius was the first who spake against the Divinity of the Son of GOD 't is not true Origen before him and Justin Martyr said the same thing Ha Sir said I That a Martyr deny'd the Divinity of GGDs Son is what I shall never believe As to Origen you know that he is alledg'd both for and against it He is an ambiguous and suspected Author But Sir let us leave uncertain Facts And let us endeavour to find one about which both you and I may agree That Sect which after the Condemnation pronounc'd against Arius join'd with this excommunicated Priest and form'd a Church against the Church was it not new He could not but grant it To prove its Newness continu'd I was there any need of ascending up to the Apostles and could not one say to it Church separated from that other Church in which Arius was born and in which he receiv'd Baptism you were neither yesterday nor the day before One might said Mr. Claude May one not say as much of the Macedonian Church which deny'd the Divinity of the Holy Ghost of the Nestorians who divided JESUS CHRISTs Person of the Eutychians that confounded his two Natures and of the Pelagians who deny'd Original Sin and the Grace of JESUS CHRIST Might one not say to them without ascending up to the Apostles When you came into the World you found the Church baptizing Children unto Remission of Sins and praying for the Conversion of Sinners and Infidels What then all these Hereticks and all the rest whom you and we know oppugned was believ'd not only from the Apostles time but yesterday and the day before and at the time when these Heresiarchs came and they found the Church in this Belief But answer'd Mr. Claude There are two ways of establishing Error the one open and the other secret and insensible Stay Sir said I to him we ought to propose evident Facts which both Parties agree I do not agree this insensible way of establishing Error Ha Sir said he will you say That you shall find praying to Saints and Purgatory in the Apostles times No Sir answer'd I I will say nothing about them for you will not agree it and I will say such things as you may agree Deal in the same manner with me He that shall draw most solid Advantages from Facts granted by his Adversary will have a great Argument that the Truth is for him For 't is the Property of Truth to keep it self upon all sides and to condemn Error by Facts which Error it self acknowledges And since you mention Prayer to Saints you are sincere is it not true that Mr. Daillé grants us thirteen hundred Years Antiquity Thirteen hundred Years Sir answer'd he is not the whole time of the Church I agree it said I to him but in fine my Adversary grants me already thirteen hundred Years he gives me St. Gregory Nazianzen St. Basil St. Ambrose St. Hierom St. Chrysostom St. Augustin All these said Mr. Claude are but Men. Let them be Men as much as you please But in fine we have from our Adversaries Confession thirteen hundred Years for Invocation of Saints and Veneration of Relicks for these two things were joyn'd together as you know Mr. Daillé asserts And how much does Mr. Blondel grant for Prayer for the Dead 'T is true said Mr. Claude That this is the antientest Error of the Church Fourteen hundred Years Antiquity said I to him is what Mr. Blondel yields us I say not this to create a Prejudice for the Truth of our Doctrin that is not the matter in hand But I say it to shew That we are not without Defence upon these Examples of Errors insensibly spread since we already have by your Consent thirteen hundred and fourteen hundred Years Let us come then to evident Facts on which I may agree For as for you you agree That the Arians Nestorians Pelagians and in one word all Hereticks were establisht as I have said They found not any Church to which they united themselves They erected one which was separated from all the other Churches that then were This is certain Is it not manifest I expected Mr. Claude contradicted it not I thought not my self oblig'd to press him any farther upon a thing evident and already own'd Now said I to him how were the Orthodox Churches establisht When particular Persons and People for Example the Indians were converted found they not a Church already establisht to which they united themselves He acknowledg'd it Did you went I on find one in the whole World to which you join'd your selves Did you embrace the Greek the Armenian or the Ethiopian Church when you forsook the Roman Can we not mark you the precise Date of your Churches and say to all that Church to all that exterior Society in which you are Minister you were not yesterday But said Mr. Claude here were we not of this Church We went not out we were driven out of it We were Excommunicated in the Council of Trent Thus we went forth But we carried the Church with us What Discourse is this Sir said I to him If you had not been driven out would you have staid in it To what purpose then is that Command so often repeated amongst you Go forth of Babylon my People Tell me sincerely Would you have staid in the Church if she had not driven ye out No sure Sir said Mr. Claude To what purpose then answer'd I do you say here That you were driven out Because said he it is true And well Sir proceeded I it is true This is common to you be not displeas'd at what I am going to say this is common to you with all Hereticks The Church in which they receiv'd Baptism cast them forth Excommunicated them They would perhaps have willingly stay'd in it to corrupt and seduce but the Church cut them off And as to what you say That you were in this Church which cast you out and that you carry'd the Church with you what Heretick may not say as much 'T was not of Heathens that the Ancient Hereticks compos'd their Churches 't was of Christians bred in the Church You also have not form'd yours by amassing Mahometans I agree it But in this you do not outgo the Examples of the ancient Hereticks and they were all able to say as well as you That they were condemn'd by their Adversaries For they were not made to sit amongst the Judges when their Novelty was condemn'd But Sir reply'd Mr.
Claude we agree not this Novelty What is in the Scripture is not new Patience Sir I beseech you said I to him None of the Ancient Hereticks agreed the Novelty of their Doctrin they all alledg'd the Holy Scripture for themselves But there was one Novelty which they could not deny to wit That the Body of their Church was not yesterday and you granted it And well in fine said Mr. Claude if the Arians if the Nestorians if the Pelagians had been right at the Bottom they would not have been to blame in their Proceeding To blame or not said I to him is not Sir the Bottom of the Question But it still continues evident That you have the same Proceeding with them the same Conduct the same Defences in a word That in forming your Church you have done as all the Hereticks did and we do what all the Orthodox have done Every one may judg in his Conscience which he had rather resemble and I have no more to say Mr. Claude was not silent on this occasion but told me That this Argument was excellent in Favor of the Jews and Pagans and that they might maintain their Cause by the Reason I made use of Let us see said I to him Sir and remember that you promise us the same Argument The same answer'd he without doubt The Jews and Pagans upbraided the Christians with their newness you know it The Writings of Celsus and so many others are Proofs of it I agree it said I to him and is this all And 't was true proceeded he That Christianity was new if we regard it in the State immediately preceding What said I to him when JESUS CHRIST began to preach could they say to him as I do to you That in the Church he was born in there was yesterday no mention of him non his Coming What then was St. John Baptist Anna the Prophetess Simeon the Wise Men and the Priests consulted by Herod when they answer'd him That the Place of his Birth was Bethlehem Was there any one Moment when CHRIST was not expected in the Church where he was born and so well expected that the Jews expect him still 'T is very true Sir That there was a Necessity this Novelty should once be seen to happen and this Change by CHRIST expected at CHRISTs Coming But JESUS CHRIST is not therefore new Heb. xiii v. 8. He is the same yesterday to day and for ever 'T is true answer'd Mr. Claude but the Synagogue agreed not That JESUS was the CHRIST But reply'd I The Synagogue condemn'd not St. John Baptist but the Synagogue heard without contradicting them the Wise Men Simeon and Anna. JESUS CHRIST gather'd in the Synagogue the then true Church the Children of GOD which it contain'd The Synagogue at last condemn'd him But JESUS CHRIST had already founded his Church He gave it its last Form presently after his Death and the new People follow'd the old without any Interruption These are undeniable Truths And for what concerns Paganism 't is true the Pagans upbraided the Christians with their Newness But what did the Christians answer Did they not shew That the Jews always believ'd the same GOD which the Christians ador'd and expected the same CHRIST That the Jews believ'd all this yesterday and the day before and always without Interruption But Sir once again said Mr. Claude The Gentils agreed not all this What answer'd I was there amongst them any one so unreasonable as to say That there never were any Jews or that this People expected not a CHRIST and ador'd not one sole GOD Creator of Heaven and Earth Did not they shew the Pagans the manifest Beginning of their Opinions and the Date I do not say of the Authors of their Sentiments but of their Gods themselves and this by their own Histories by their own Authors and by their own Chronology Do you believe That a Pagan could have made a Christian confess That the Christian Religion was new or that there never was any Society which had the same Belief the Christians then had as I make you own That all the Hereticks which you and I acknowledg for such came in this manner and that you have done as they did See Sir how you prove That the Jews and Pagans might maintain their Cause by the same Argument I use None can ever do it nor can ever any one deny the evident Fact vvhich I affirm That vve do as all the Orthodox and you as all the Hereticks have done Here the Conversation ended It had lasted five Hours with a great Attention of the whole Assembly We heard one another peaceably We spake on both sides close enough and except the beginning vvhere Mr. Claude a little enlarg'd his Discourse in all the rest he came to the Matter and presented himself to the Difficulty vvithout Recoiling 'T is true he aim'd rather to entangle me in the Inconveniences in vvhich I engag'd him than to shevv hovv he could himself get out But in fine all this proceeded from the Cause and he assuredly said all that his could furnish him vvith upon the Point to vvhich vve had confin'd our selves For my part I car'd not to go from it since 't was that which Mademoiselle de Duras desir'd to have clear'd She appear'd to me toucht I nevertheless retir'd trembling and fearing lest my weakness might have put her Soul in danger and the Truth in doubt I Visited her the next day III. The Sequel of the Conference I was glad to see she perfectly understood all I had said This is what I had promis'd her I had represented to her That amidst the immense Difficulties which the Spirit of Cavilling and the Depth of the Christian Doctrin had caus'd to spring up a-amongst men GOD would have his Children provided of an easy Means to resolve themselves in what concern'd their Salvation that this Means was the Churches Authority that this means was easy to be establisht easy to be understood easy to be follow'd so easy said I and so clear that if you shall not understand what I shall say upon it I am contented you believe me to be in the wrong This in effect must be so when the matter is well handled But I durst not promise my self that I had treated it as I ought I knew with joy and thanksgiving that GOD had turn'd all to good The Arguments that ought to affect affected her She could not comprehend how an ignorant private Person could without an insupportable pride believe he might happen to understand the Scripture better than all the Universal Councels and all the rest of the Church She saw as well as I how weak the Example of the Synagogue was when it condemn'd JESUS CHRIST and how little reason there was to say That the particular persons who believ'd well wanted an Exterior Authority to resolve them when they had in the Person of JESUS CHRIST the greatest and most visible Authority that can be imagin'd I
pass'd again over the Doubt in which one must be touching the Scripture if one doubted of the Churches Authority She said she never so much as thought that a Christian might doubt one moment of the Scripture and besides she perfectly understood that Mr. Claude rejecting the Name of Doubt acknowledg'd the Thing in other terms Which serv'd only to make appear how hard this Matter was both to think and say since being forc't to own it he thought not fit to do it in simple Terms For in fine not to know whether a thing be or no if it be not to Doubt is nothing It appear'd then clearly That the two Propositions which were in debate were establisht And I shew'd Mademoiselle de Duras in few words That her Church by believing two such strange Things had chang'd the whole Order of instructing GODs Children practis'd at all times in the Christian Church For this purpose I needed only repeat to her what she had heard me say and what she had heard Mr. Claude grant GOD nevertheless put in my heart something more express and I said to her as follows The Order of instructing GODs Children is to teach them before all things the Apostles Creed I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost the holy Catholic Church the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins and the rest As much as the Faithful believes in GOD the Father and in his Son JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost so much does he believe the Universal Church where the Father where the Son where the Holy Ghost is ador'd As much I say as he believes the Father so much does he believe the Church which makes Profession to believe that GOD the Father of JESUS CHRIST has adopted Children whom he has united to his Son As much as he believes in the Son so much does he believe the Church which he has assembled by his Blood which he has establisht by his Doctrin which he has founded on the Rock and against which he has promis'd that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail As much as he believes in the Holy Ghost so much does he believe that Church to which the Holy Ghost was given for a Teacher And he that says I believe in GOD and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost Rom. X. v. 10. when he says I believe confesses With the heart he believeth unto Righteousness and with the mouth Confession is made unto Salvation as St. Paul says and he knows that the Faith he has is not a private Sentiment There is a Church a Society of Men which believes as he does 'T is the Universal Church which is neither here nor there neither at this time nor at another She is not confin'd to one only Country like the ancient Judaical Church nor is she to end as that was Dan. II. v. 44. C. 7. v. 14. and her Kingdom shall not pass to other People as 't is written in Daniel She is at all times and in all places and so dispers'd that whoever will come to her may She has no Interruption in her Succession for there is not any time when one cannot say I believe the Vniversal Church As there is not any time but one may say I believe in GOD the Father and in his Son and in the Holy Ghost This Church is Holy because all she teaches is holy because she teaches all the Doctrin which makes Saints that is all the Doctrin of JESUS CHRIST because she encloses all the Saints in her Unity And these Saints must not only be united in Spirit They are exteriorly united in the Communion of this Church and this is meant by the Communion of Saints In this Universal Church in this Communion of Saints is the Remission of Sins There is Baptism by which Sins are remitted there is the Ministery of the Keys by which whatsoever is remitted or retained on Earth Matt. xvi v. 19. John xx v. 23. is remitted or retained in Heaven Behold then in this Church an exterior Ministery which lasts as long as the Church that is to say always since this Church is believ'd at all times not as a thing which has been or must be but as a thing which actually is See then to what this Church is joyn'd and what is joyn'd to this Church She is joyn'd immediatly to the Holy Ghost which governs her I believe in the Holy Ghost the holy Catholic Church To this Church is joyn'd the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins the Resurrection of the Flesh eternal Life Out of this Church there is neither Communion of Saints nor Remission of Sins nor Resurrection to eternal Life Behold the Faith of the Church establisht in the Creed It makes no mention of the Scripture Is it because it despises it GOD forbid You shall receive the Scripture from the Hands of the Church and because you never doubted of the Church you shall never doubt of the Scripture which the Church has receiv'd from GOD from JESUS CHRIST and from the Apostles which she always keeps as coming from that Source which she puts into the Hands of all the Faithful Methought this Doctrin truly Holy and Apostolical wrought the Effect it ought to work But there is said I one Word more 'T is what I said to Mr. Claude and I reduce it now to this most plain Argument which every one may equally understand I mean the Learned as the Ignorant and the private Person as the Pastor The baptiz'd Christian before he reads the holy Scripture can either make this Act of Faith I believe that this Word is inspir'd by GOD as I believe that GOD is or he cannot If he cannot he then doubts of it he is reduc'd to examin whether the Gospel is not a Fable But if he can make it by what means shall he do it The Holy Ghost shall put it in his Heart This is no Answer for it is agreed That Faith in the Scripture comes from the Holy Ghost The Question is concerning the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses and there can be no other but the Churches Authority Thus every Christian receives from the Church without examining this Scripture as a Writing inspir'd by GOD. Let us go a little farther Does the Church only give us the Holy Scripture in Paper the Bark of the Word the Body of the Letter No without doubt she gives us the Spirit that is the Sense of the Scripture For to give us the Scripture without the Sense is to give us a Body without a Soul a Letter which kills The Scripture without its lawful Interpretation the Scripture destitute of its natural Sense is a Knife to cut our Throats The Arian cut his Throat by the Scripture misunderstood so did the Nestorian so did the Pelagian GOD forbid then That the Church should give us only the Scripture without giving us the Sense of it She receiv'd them both together When she
Reformation have not been able to change the necessary Condition of Humaniâ—â— which for the hindring Divisions and quieting Mens Minâ—â— requires a final Decision independent of all new Examination either General or Particular The Christian Church is not exempt from this Law and the more regular she is the more her Constitution dependâ— on an entire Submission of Mind the more need she has of such an Authority Wherefore from the very beginning of Christianity GOD himself has put into the Hearts of all true Christians That they must no longer search nor examin after the Church has determin'd This inviolable Tradition has wrought its Effect in our Reformed maugre their Principles Nor do I wonder at it Reâ— de 〈◊〉 S. 29. St. Basil very wisely and very truly said That Tradition made men speak more than they would and inspir'd into them things contrary to their Sentiments And if our Reformed will not ow to Tradition this last and final Resolution and this Submission so solemnly sworn 't is then Necessity and Experience that has forc't them to it 't is because there must an End be put to the Doubts and Examinations of private persons by an absolute Authority if they will have Peace and uphold Humility 't is that if they neither have nor exercise this Authority they must make a shew of having and exercising it and at least give the Idea of it 't is in a word because one may indeed discourse and answer Arguments by Words but the natural Ignorance Infirmity and Pride of Mans Mind requires other Remedies The Second REFLEXION On one of the Propositions acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference and on the Examen he prescribes after the Judgment of the Church I Pretended to shew is the Conference That by denying the Churches infallible Authority one falls into these two Inconveniences and I said not into one of the two but inevitably into both of them The first is That every particular person how ignorant soever he may be is oblig'd to believe That he may understand GODs Word better than the most universal Synods and all the rest of the Church together The second That there is a time when a Baptiz'd Christian is not in condition to make an Act of Faith upon the Holy Scripture but that whether he will or no he shall find himself oblig'd to doubt whether it be inspir'd by GOD. I have not seen any of the Pretended Reformed in whom these two Propositions have not caus'd an horror and who has not told me he should be so far from ever believing them himself that he should detest those which did Let us see then how it continues fixt by the Conference that they are Consequences of the Pretended Reformeds Doctrin and such manifest Consequences that they are own'd by the Ministers And indeed not to depart from Mr. Claude's Relation he himself asserts in it That after all Ecclesiastical Assemblies every particular Person ought to 〈◊〉 whether they have well understood GODs Word or no When he had spoken of human Interests which often is he said 〈◊〉 the Truth in the most authentical and most universal Assemblies of the Church For to destroy this Answer and shew that 't was in the bottom nothing but a Civil I 〈◊〉 him whether all passing in Order and without the appearance of any human Interest in the Deliberation every private Person must not yet examin He acknowledg'd he must and 〈◊〉 it still in his own Relation maintaining That there is not any Absurdity nor any Pride in a private Persons 〈◊〉 that he may understand GODs Word better than all Ecclesiastical Assemblies what good Order soever is kept in them and of whatsoever Persons they 〈◊〉 be 〈…〉 This Proposition and Doctrin will appear 〈◊〉 to every docible Spirit But to the end the thing may be 〈…〉 let us make Application of this Doctrin in a particular Example The Calvinistical Church since these 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 years from her first beginning to be establisht has not held any Assembly more 〈…〉 more 〈◊〉 than the Synoâ— of Dâ—rt Besides all the Churches of the 〈…〉 all the rest of the same Belief that of England that of 〈◊〉 those of the 〈◊〉 those of 〈◊〉 those of Switzerland that of 〈◊〉 and the â—est of the German Language were there by their Deputies and receiv'd it and to the end nothing might be wanting to it if the 〈…〉 Churches of this Realm were hindred from 〈…〉 at it they adopted all its Doctrin in the National Synod of 〈◊〉 1631. where all the Articles of 〈…〉 and sworn to by the whole Synod and afterwards by all-the Provinces and all the particular Churches Since that time none of the Pretended Reformed 〈◊〉 this Synod The 〈◊〉 alone who were there 〈…〉 blame is Doctrin and relate the Cabals and the Share Policy and the Interests of the House of 〈◊〉 had in it All also have yielded and if there be any thing that can be said 〈◊〉 have been receiv'd with an unanimous Confeâ—â— by all the Churches of the Pretended Reformation 't is without doubt the 〈◊〉 of this Synod And nevertheless I will 〈…〉 Whether any private Person whatever of his Church may rely upon an Authority so great amongst them as this is without examining any farther if he be press'd to Answer positively Yea or No to so precise a Question and in a Fact so well circumstantiated he must say No and that in fine notwithstanding all this they were but men how able how illummated how holy soever they are imagin'd still subject to fail whose Sentiments if one should follow blindfold and without examining he would equal men to GOD. Thus according to the Maxims of the new Reformation every private Person even to the most ignorant women ought to believe that they can understand the holy Scripture better than an Assembly compos'd of whatever is greatest in that whole Church which he acknowledges to be the only one where GOD is purely serv'd and not only better than this Assembly but than all the rest of the Church and than all that he knows in the whole Universe This is what Mr. Claude has acknowledg'd to me This is in Substance what he still says in his own Relation and this is what every Minister whether he will or no shall own in a Conference in the presence of any one that shall desire it unless he obstinately resolves not to answer positively In which case he will be seen to shuffle and this Tergiversation will be stronger than an Acknowledgment since 't will not only shew that the Acknowledgment is inevitable but 't will also make appear that he is sensible of its pernicious Consequences And what I say of the Synod of Dort Mr. Claude and every other Minister will be forc'd to say of the Council of Nice of the Council of Constantinople of that of Ephesus of that of Chalcedon and the rest which they and we receive with common accord And when they shall say it
Mr. Claude shall publish his Relation 't will appear that the little he says naturally requires all that I recite So it is that the Pretended Reformed were averr'd in establishing their Church to have done contrary to what the Orthodox ever did and precisely what all 〈◊〉 have done and Mr. Claude press'd upon this matter cannot in all the History of Christianity shew one only Church truly Christian founded as the Churches of the new Reformation It may now be judg'd what likelihood there is that what all Hereticks have done contrary to the Practice of all the Orthodox can ever be authoriz'd by the Example of the Apostles when they separated from the Synagogue But since Mr. Claude places the strength of his Defence in this Example I desire him to add to the evident Facts I alledg'd to him 〈◊〉 this Subject these short Reflections that thô JESVS CHRIST authoriz'd of himself had no need of any Succession to make himself believ'd nevertheless to inculcate to us how necessary 't is for the true Religion to have a Succession always manifest he would at his coming into the World find there a Church actually subsisting in its whole State that he was born and liv'd in this Church actually subsisting that is in the Synagogue and would so form his Church in the midst of her that even the holy Apostles after his Asâ—â—â—sion and the Coming down of the Holy Ghost persisted publickly in the Service of the Temple which was than the most 〈◊〉 Mark of Communion that they were not indeed seen whatever might be ordain'd against them to have ever withdrawn from it as long as the Temple was in being and the Synagogue could keep either its exterior Form or even any appearance of its ancient State that GOD who would in fine have his Children entirely separated from the Jews had first extinguisht in this ungrateful People by a manifest Reprobation with the Sacrifice and Priesthood all the Marks of the Church so that 't is apparent the Synagogue with its Temple fell to ruin before the Children of GOD departed from it that he was then so far from leaving any hope to this People as he had done in the ancient Transmigration and Ruin of the first Temple that he had on the contrary given all the Marks of an implacable Anger that to the end such a Fall of his heretofore chosen People and the Divorce declar'd to the Synagogue formerly his Spouse might not give the least Pretext of suspecting any like Event in time to come he had caus'd this future Fall and Divorce to be foretold by all his Prophets as a singular Example of his wrath and had at the same time protested that no such thing should ever befal that Church with which he made an eternal Covenant that besides all this and thô the Reprobation of the Synagogue was clearly explicated in the Scripture and thô the Apostles without making any Innovation in the Doctrin did but follow him who had til their time been always without any Interruption expected nevertheless because there was in this Action some Rupture with the Synagogue heretofore the true Church to authorize them in it there was no less requir'd than JESVS CHRIST himself present on the earth with all the Authority of his eternal Father and in a word to dissent from the Sentiments of the Synagogue thô besides convinc'd by the Scriptures 't was necessary that JESVS CHRIST the Corner Stone in whom all was to be united should appear visibly on the earth with the incontestable Marks of his Mission I leave you now to consider whether an Example of this Nature can give any occasion of ever separating from the Church of JESVS CHRIST or of saying that this Church founded on the Rock must fall or that the Succession of which JESVS CHRIST is the Source could suffer any Interruption and whether all does not here rather cry out against such an Attempt The Ninth REFLECTION On the Visibility of the Church that Mr. Claude opposes not the Doctrin I have explain'd till he has first fram'd himself a false Idea of it HItherto we have seen what concerns the Conference and Mr. Claude's manner of relating it We must now consider what he opposes against the Instructions that preceded it He answers them largely in the writing Vid. Sup. Advert Ref. p. 57. we have already mention'd This writing has no Title and is made in the Form of a Letter To make our selves better understood let us give it a Name and call it Mr. Claude's Manuscript Answer As you have seen that the Conference was on my part preceded by two Instructions Vid. Sub. p. 2. the first of which establisht the perpetual Visibility of the Church Vid. Sup. p. 16. and the second clear'd some Objections taken from the Book of the Kings Mr. Claude has follow'd this Division He divides also his Answer into two parts the first is subdivided into four questions In the first he treats of the Universal Church which the Creed speaks of and blames me for not having comprehended in it with all the Blessed Spirits the Saints which shall be born even to the end of the World In the second he examins whether the Church can be defin'd by her exterior Communion as he supposes I have done He speaks in the third of the Churches perpetual Visibility and seeks in the fourth to what Church JESVS CHRISTs Promises belong whether to that I have setled or to that he has establisht He draws afterwards eleven Consequences from the Doctrin he has explicated and passes to the second Part the Objections taken from the Book of the Kings This is the Idea of his work 'T is in these four Questions and these eleven Consequences that he attack's with all his might the Doctrin I have taught concerning the perpetual Visibility of the Church but you are going to see that he could not do it till he had first fram'd himself a false Idea of it To shew that the Church spoken of in the Creed ought to be always visible I said that all Christians by the Name Church understood a Society Vid. Sup. p. 2. seq making Profession to believe the Doctrin of JESVS CHRIST â—nd given it self by his Word whence it follows that 't is visible and linkt by an exterior and sensible Communion Thus I at first laid down my Position being what I had to make good 'T was not my intention as Mr. Claude supposes neither was there any need to give a perfect Definition of the Church nor to prove her interior Union by the Holy Ghost by Faith by Charity for of this we are agreed The question then being only about the exterior Marks of this Union I had done all in shewing that these exterior Marks are inseparable from the Church and consequently that she is always visible In the mean time on my having said that by the word Church is understood a Society making Profession to believe the Doctrin
Subterfuge for we have still an Argument left to overturn the whole pretended Reformation See it taken from the very Principles laid by themselves The word Church ought to be taken in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith as it is naturally taken in a Fundamental Article of the Christian Religion else this Confession of Faith would not be conformable as it pretends to the Holy Scripture Now in this Confession of Faith the word Church is taken for a visible Society this Proposition is acknowledg'd in the Synod of Gap as we just now saw 'T is thus then that the word Church is naturally taken in Holy Scripture and in the Creed for a visible Church and the Term Catholick or Vniversal put in the Creed Man Ans q. 1. as Mr. Claude confesses to distinguish the whole Body of the Church truly Christian spread over the whole Earth from all false Churches and all particular Churches instead of rendring the Church invisible makes her so much the more visible as it more visibly separates her from all false Churches and puts in her Bosom all the particular Churches so visible and so remarkable by their common Profession of Faith and their common Government The Eleventh REFLEXION On Mr. Claude's own acknowledging the Churches perpetual Visibility the surprizing Doctrin of this Minister BUT without disputing any farther we need only 〈◊〉 to Mr. Claude and 〈◊〉 what he grants us in his Manuscript Answer concerning the Churches perpetual Visibility And would to GOD I could here transcribe all this Work There would be seen in it many things very favourable to our Doctrin which I cannot well make understood till it shall be publick But 't is not for me to publish it and I am contend to transcribe at length forasmuch as it is necessary the Passages you are going to see such as I found them in the Duke of Chevreuses Manuscript own'd as I have said by Mr. Claude himself Now if he 〈◊〉 found to speak of the Church after a manner new in the 〈…〉 this mâ—st not be wondred at for two Reasons The first because 't is true he has taught in a manner the same Doctrin in his other 〈◊〉 thâ— he has 〈◊〉 explicated it more fully and 〈◊〉 order thâ—â—â— over The second because he pretends to say nothing new a 〈◊〉 we ought to rejoyce at there being nothing more desirable 〈◊〉 to see the Number of the Principles and Articles on which we may agree increase Let us enter then with all our heart into this 〈◊〉 Design let us 〈◊〉 in what Mr. Claude agrees with us and let us reâ—â—â—â— his Doctrin in the 〈◊〉 Order thâ—â— he 〈◊〉 it in his third and fourth Question and afterwards in his eleven Consequences What I find at first is that 't is manifest that thâ— the 〈◊〉 Church be mixt with the 〈◊〉 ends and 〈◊〉 Confession 〈◊〉 ceases not to be visible in the mixture as the good 〈◊〉 with the Three in one and the 〈◊〉 Fields and as the good 〈◊〉 with the 〈◊〉 in one and the same 〈◊〉 This goes well let no proceed This Mixture hinders indeed the just Discernment of Persons but it hinders not the Discernment or Distinction of the Orders of Persons even with certainty We know not certainly who are in particular true Believers nor who are Hypocrites but we know certainly that there are true Believers as there are Hypocrites which is sufficient to make the Visibility of the true Church I hear this with joy assuredly we shall advance Mr. Claude gives it us already for manifest that there shall be always a visible Body of which one may say There are the true Believers I continue to read his Answer and I find that he blames me for imputing to the Pretended Reformed that they believe not the Body in which GOD has plac'd according to St. Paul some Apostles some Teachers some Pastors and the rest to be the Church of JESVS CHRIST How glad am I to be reprehended provided we advance It is then manifest that the Body of JESVS CHRIST which is his Church shall always be compos'd of Pastors of Teachers of Preachers and also of People it is then consequently always very visible and the Succession of the Pastors as well as that of the People ought to be manifest in it Mr. Claude confirms here his Discourse by a passage of Mr. Mestresat who determins that we must not seek the Church of GOD out of the Ministery and the Word So much the better and I am glad that Mr. Claude finds in his Church many Followers of this Doctrin I was afraid Vid. Sup. p. 5. that the Ministers would not find the visible Church in this Passage of St. Paul to the Ephesians where the Church is propos'd to us without Spot and without Blemish and I had set my self to prove that this Church describ'd by St. Paul was the visible Church because it was washt by Baptism and by the Wordâ— Mr. Claude enters at first into my Sentiment He says that in this passage we must understand indeed the Church which is already in Heaven but also the visible Church whichis on the earth as making together but one and the same Body and he cites here also Mr. Mestresat I receive this Doctrin and if any of our Reformed be it Mr. Claude himself ever objects to me that I must not so much rely on the Churches Visibility since there is at least a Part of this Church which is invisible that is to say that which is in Heaven I will answer that this ought not to trouble us since that in fine by this Doctrin of Mr. Mestresat and Mr. Claude being in communion with the visible Part of the Church I am sure to be so also with the invisible Part which is already in Heaven with JESVS CHRIST so that 't is very certain that all is reduc'd in fine to the Visibility Mr. Claude passes thence to the Objections that may be made and he decides at first that the Visibility of the Church is a Visibility of Ministery He must then at last as he acknowledges in the Church a perpetual Visibility come to shew us a Succession in the Ministery and in one word a Train of lawful Pastors He objects to himself that the Ministery is common to the Good and the Bad whence it seems one might conclude against his Doctrin that Good and Bad compose the Church And he Answers that if the use the Ministery is common to Good and Bad this is only by accident and thrô the Fraud of the Enemy that of right it belongs only to the true Believers and that the supernatural Destination is only for them All this is clear except this Expression the Ministery of right belongs only to the true Believers For as one might understand by this that none but true Believers are lawfull Pastors one might fall into the Inconvenience of being to examin every one in particular whether the Pastors are indeed true Believers
and to believe that they cease to be Pastors when they cease to be good People thô without Scandal this is the pernicious Doctrin of Wicleff which would put all the Church in Confusion Excepting this ill Sense which cannot be Mr. Claude's I grant him all he says for without doubt 't is not JESVS CHRISTs first Intent that there should be Ministers that are Deceivers this happens only thrô the Malice of the Enemy The Destinction of the Ministery is for true Believers JESVS CHRIST did not establish it to call into the Church Deceivers and Hypocrites who doubts it But nevertheless these Deceivers and these Hypocrites may be sufficiently of the Church to be lawful Pastors in it and the true Believers being to live to the end of the World under the Authority of this mixt Ministery he must then without examining whether the Ministers are good or evil shew us a Succession of them always manifest under which GOD has conserv'd his People The more I continue my Reading the more I find this Truth evidently declar'd For entring into the fourth Question I take good notice that Mr. Claude pretends there to shew that the Passages where JESVS CHRIST promises the Church to keep her always on the earth regard only the Society of true Believers but he forbears not always equally to own that this Church never ceases to be visible and that JESVS CHRIST has so promis'd I pretended to shew the visible Church in these words Vid. Sup. 7 8. seq Mat. xvi v. 18. Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it The Reasons I made use of to prove it may be seen Mr. Claude receives this Doctrin with its Proofs And he acknowledges that the Church which is spoken of in this Passage is in effect a confessing Church a Church which publishes the Faith a Church to which JESUS CHRIST has given an exterior Ministery a Church which uses the Ministery of the Keys and which binds and looses and which consequently has an Outside and a Visibility 'T is such a Church that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd to keep always on the earth Mr. Claude cannot suffer one to tell him that she ceases to be and thus she is always with all that Ministery which is essential to her which makes Mr. Claude conclude with me Vid. Sup. p. 9 10. c. that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without discontinuance till the General Resurrection and to grant without difficulty that this Promise of JESVS CHRIST I will be always with you respects the Perpetuity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery Mat. xxviii v. 9. 20. JESVS CHRIST promises says he to be with the Church to baptize with her and to TEACH WITH HER WITHOUT INTERRUPTION EVEN TO THE END OF THE WORLD There shall then always be Teachers with whom JESVS CHRIST shall teach and true Preaching shall never cease in his Church But shall this Ministery last for ever so pure that none but good People shall be admitted to it We have seen that Mr. Claude pretends it not In effect there is no Promise of this perpetual Purity the Promise is that whatsoever the Manners of these Ministers may be JESVS CHRIST will always act always baptize and ALWAYS TEACH with them and the Effect of this Ministery thô mixt shall be such that under its Authority the Church shall be always visible not indeed says Mr. Claude with a distinct view which goes so far as to say Such and such are 〈…〉 which it notwithstanding CERTAIN and which goes so 〈…〉 say The true 〈…〉 to 〈◊〉 IN THAT EXTERIOR PROFESSION Let us not call if they will by the Name of the Church all that exterior Profession let us abstain from this Name since Mr. Claude is against it and like true reasonable and peaceable Christians let us endeavour to agree on the thing This exterior Profession which may be always 〈◊〉 and as I may say pointed to with the Finger is mixt of Good and Evil the Ministery which governs it is also mixt Mr. Claude agrees all this it may nevertheless be said Under this Ministery and in this exterior Profession are the 〈◊〉 Believers This is what we just now heard from the same Ministers Mouth If then according to his Doctrin the Society of true Believers subsists for ever and continues always visible on the earth if it may always be shewn in an exterior Profession and is visible only there as Mr. Claude says it not only follows that true Believers shall always be upon the earth but that this Profession mixt of Good and Bad where there true Believers are found where they are pointed to where they are markt shall be there also this is what we agree on with Mr. Claude But since all these Passages are dispers'd up and down his Answer see here one in which he has taken care to collect all together 'T is after his fourth Question and in the seventh Consequence that this Minister endeavouring to explicate the XXXI Article of the Confession of Faith where it is said that in our days and before the Reformation the State of the Church was interrupted distinguishes the State of the Church interrupted for a time from the Church which is never interrupted according to his Principles and thâ—s he defines the Church The Church says he is the true Faithful who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of true Holiness under a Ministery which fâ—â—nishes her with the Alments necessary for the spiritual Life without depriving her of any of them We shall discover in its time the secret of these spiritual Aliments In the mean while 〈…〉 agree with Mr. Claude that the Church always subsist and always subsists visible since by his Definition she is nothing 〈◊〉 but the true Believers who MAKE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN TRUTH under the Ecclesiastical Ministery Behold an immoveable Foundation Let us see what we can build on it but before we build we are going to see the Objections fall The Twelfth REFLEXION Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his own Doctrin MR. Claude objects to me first Man Aus that I desire in vain to establish my Society compos'd of Good and Bad and its eternal Duration on these inviolable Promises of JESVS CHRIST Thou art Peter and I am always with you 'T is not says he of the Wicked that it can be said that Hall shall not prevail against them 'T is not with Wicked men and Hypocrites that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd always to be and these Promises respect none but true Believers Let us add according to Mr. Claude's Principles that if these Promises respect only true Believers they respect them at least in this Ministery and in this exterior Profession and the Objection will be at the same time resolv'd For in fine if the true Believers ought to be always shewn and always visible according to Mr. Claude in this
to the private Persons that were never vested with it And what is Mr. Claude's Meaning Is it that these private Persons become of right Ministers without any Bodies having ordain'd them or that without being Ministers they have Right of their sole Authority to set up Ministers in the Church Let them shew me it in the Scripture or let them for ever renounce the Pretence of having the Scripture alone for Guide I find in the Scripture that JESVS CHRIST said to his Apostles As my Father sent me I also send you I find in the Scripture that the Apostles thus send others and consecrate themselves Successors But that all their Successors being on a sudden faln and depriv'd of the right of their Ministery this Ministery should of right return to the Faithful to whom none had ever given it to dispose of at their Pleasure neither has the Scripture said nor following Ages imagin'd 'T is then a Monster the Birth of which was reserv'd for the time of the new Reformation The Ministery say they belongs of right to the Church It does without doubt belong to the Church as the Eyes do to the Body The Ministery is not for it self no more are the Eyes The Ministery is establisht to be the Light of the Church as the Eyes are the Light or as JESVS CHRIST calls them the Torch of the Body Does it follow that when the Body has lost its Eyes it can remake them of it self No without doubt it will have need of the Hand which made them at first and there will never be any thing but a new Creation which can repair the Work that the first Creation had form'd In this manner if the Catholick Church could as they would imagin in the new Reformation lose all on a sudden all its Ministers without their having given themselves Successors according to the Order of JESVS CHRIST JESVS CHRIST must come again on Earth to re-establish this sacred Order by a new Creation They will indeed find in the Bosom of the Roman Church these true Believers of which the Reformed Church was at first compos'd why will they not in the same manner detach the Pastors of this Reformed Church from the Pastors which were in Office in the Roman Church The Ministery is to be mixt as the People and is to have always good Pastors amongst the Bad as there are always true Believers amongst the false Christians Why then were they fain to say in the new Reformation and in the XXXI Article of their Confession of Faith that the State of the Church was interrupted Why were they fain to have recourse to these People extraordinarily rais'd to build anew the Church which was in ruin and desolation 'T is that they were fain to speak not according to what ought to be done in the Order establisht by JESVS CHRIST but according to what was done against all Order 'T is that the new Reformation was made of Pastors who in effect held nothing from the Pastors that were before and therefore they were necessitated even against their Wills to attribute to them thô without proof an extraordinary Vocation But in truth Reason requir'd something else and why then did they not speak according to Reason except it were once again that they were fain to accommodate not what was done to the Rule but the Rule to what was done But will they say if any Church for example the Greek Church shews us the Succession of her Pastors will you hold it for a true Church By no means if I can shew in it Marks of Innovation which it cannot deny as I should do without much trouble if it were in question But with our Reformed the Proof is made since themselves confess the Interruption we charge them with Mr. Claude palliates as well as he can this interrupted State of the Church so punctually acknowledg'd in her Confession of Faith We distinguish After the 4. q. 7. Conseq says he the Church from her State The Church are the true Believers who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of a real Sanctity under a Ministery which furnishes them with the Aliments necessary for the Spiritual Life without depriving them of any one Her natural and legitimate State is to be discharg'd as much as the Condition of militant can permit from the impure mixture of prophano Persons and Worldings not to be cover'd and as it were bury'd by this Chaff and these Tares whence a thousand Evils come upon her as to have a Ministery free from Errors from false Worships from superstitious Practices a Ministery possess'd by good People who keep at by good ways and serve themselves for good example 'T is this State of the Church which we say was interrupted Why does he load himself with so many Words and because they are pompous not observe that they are vain not to say deceitful and manifestly contrary to the Gospel For can one more clearly impose on People than by exaggerating as is here done this Ministery possest by good people who keep it by good ways and serve themselves for good Example Is it that the Authority of the Ecclesiastical Ministery dupends on the Discussion of the Life and good Example of those who are vested with it and that thô they should be as scandalous and perverse as the Scribes and Pharisees we must not still say not with JESVS CHRIST they sit in Moses Chair but what is much more august Matt. 23. v. 2. they are in the Chair of JESVS CHRIST and his Apostles Let us leave nevertheless these things and come to this interrupted State of the XXXI Article which Mr. Claude undertakes here to explicate to us This interrupted State of the Church is alledg'd here to found the necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Pretended Reformers for let us hear how this Article speaks It has been sometimes necessary and namely in our days in which the State of the Church was interrupted that GOD should raise up people after an extraordinary manner to set up the Church anew You see Gentlemen this interrupted State of the Church is alledg'd only to found the extraordinary Vocation of your Pretended Reformers But to found the Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation 't is not sufficient that the Ministery is impure it must have ceased When you came Gentlemen had this Ecclesiastical Ministery ceas'd By no means will Mr. Claude answer you for then the Church would have ceas'd since the Church according to him as you just now heard is nothing else but the true Believers who make Profession of the Truth UNDER A MINISTERY which furnishes her with necessary Aliments And he has already told us that the Church is never without the Ministery Wherefore in this place where he endeavours to give an Account of this interrupted State after he has by so many fine Words set forth the Impurity which he imagins in the Ministery before the Reformation The Church adds he ceas'd