put it in every Citie which we affirme not nor need not to carry the cause against you for if we can prove it in some Cities or in any Cities that the number of Converts did arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations then we prove the Scripture holds out a Presbyteriall Classicall Church and overthrow your grand principle about a particular Church And Reader observe the fallacie of these Apologists how in the manner of their expression and as they propound it though the thing may be true yet they alter quite the state of the Question For though in every Citie where the Apostles came you could not imagine the number of Converts should be so great nor we neither yet in some Cities you might have well imagined it as in Ierusalem and Rome But Brethren why will you who are Schollers and without question weighed well all your words and manner of expressions having so many heads in the framing this Apologie deale thus with the Reader in a Narration speake truly though you did not imagine the number of Converts were so many in every City yet did not you imagine the number might be so great in some Cities as in Ierusalem and if still you will not imagine it for the helping of your imagination consider whether you have not more reason if not infallible and necessary yet probable and rationall to imagine the Church of Hiâ—…rusalem consisting of so many thousands of people and having so many Ministers to preach unto them as 12. Apostles besides the seventy Disciples and they meeting in so many distinct houses and not having the power and command of any publicke large place or liberty through those times to fit it for such multitudes to heare the word joyne in prayer and Sacraments should have severall and sundry Congregations rather then to imagine all those should make but one standing Congregation to meet in one place and roome 2. It is stated otherwise carried higher then need be granted and that in all your expressions of it for the Scriptures may hold forth a combination of the Elders of many Churches for government and yet not be the Institution of Christ or his Apostles It may be allowed and agreeable to the word have a jus divinum permissivum upon generall rules of the word and according to the rules of the law of nature and of Prudence yea and may have some examples of it and yet not amount to a divine Institution many who hold the thing will not in those phrases owne it 2. These Elders of many Congregations may have a power of Government in common over all and yet not be the first seat of Church-power for it is not denied but some particular Congregations having a competent number of Presbyters both have and may exercise Church-power before any such combination is or can be 3. These Elders combined may have Church-power to rule these Congregations so combined and yet not have a compleate and entire seat of Church-power but a power liable to appeales unto Synods and generall Assemblies The question betweene you and us is whether Classes or Presbyteries have power in Ecclesiasticall matters as Ordination Excommunication c. within the number of Congregations so combined or may by warrant from the word exercise any power in Church matters but in their owne particular Congregations the question is not whether it be the Institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seat of Church power As you state it you strangely mistate the question to lay it downe in these words That the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first seat of Church-power over each Congregation so combined whereas the opinion of the Reformed Churches is quite contrary not holding Classes and Synods to be the first subject of Church-power from whence it is consequently derived and conferred upon particular Churches but that particular congregations having power in themselves and amongst themselves equall power doe in Classes and Synods conferre and execute in common their owne power even as those who are colleagues and equall members of some politicall societie 4. The power which particular officers and Presbyters of combined congregations may have over particular members of those Churches they teach not ordinarily doth not amount to the challenging and assuming an authority over those Churches they feed and teach not your expression is a mistake it is not an assuming a power and authority by some over other Churches but it is a power of the whole and of themselvs too even those particular Churches in their officers over particular members as in the Parliament no member hath power over another more then another over him but the whol hath power over all the particulars for the clearing of which the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland speake fully in their Reformation of Church government in Scotland cleared page 24 25. And for the close of this second head wherein you stand upon what you are not satisfied in but disallow if you would impartially consider that the Scriptures in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles doe as well hold out grounds yea and more indubitable as I shall make evident in a particular Tractate of the visible Church that the first particular Churches planted by the Apostles consisted of more Congregations and distinct meeting places then of one only Congregation you will acknowledge that where there are many Presbyters to feed and rule and many more Christians living in a vicinity then can meet in one place it is not the most safe and allowed way to retaine the government of each Congregation thus within themselves neither that it is an additament in the reformed Churches to practise so but rather an additament on their part who living in a City where the number of beleevers are so numerous as to make many meeting places there to make these places and persons such distinct Churches as to manage all things each one within themselves and not to grow into one for government And I am so farre versed in these controversies that I challenge you five to give me an example of any City where it is probable the multitude of beleevers were so numerous as to make many meeting places that ever they were governed and ruled but in common or ever called Churches but Church still called the Church of Corinth and the Church of Ierusalem I foresee only one instance that can be probably alledged that in Rom. 16. 1. of the Church which is at Cenchrea which Cenchrea was a part of Corinth and neare to Corinth yet named a Church as well as the Church of Corinth but the insufficiencie of that ground I shall at large shew in that Tractate of the visible Church which Primitive practise hath so farre wrought with some of the reformed Churches as those of Holland that in great Cities where the number of their people
HAving diligently perused this Antapologia I find it so full and just and necessary an examination and discovery of the Apologeticall Narration both in matters of fact and of opinion that because I dare not as too many have the faith of our Lord Iesus Christ the Lord of glory with respect of persons I approve it to be imprinted and commend it Reader to thy most serious consideration Ia. Cranford ANTAPOLOGIA Or A Full Answer to the Apologeticall Narration OF Mr Goodwin Mr Nye Mr Sympson Mr Burroughs Mr Bridge Members of the Assembly of Divines Wherein is handled many of the Controversies of these Times viz. 1. Of a particular visible Church 2. Of Classes and Synods 3. Of the Scriptures how farre a Rule for Church Government 4. Of Formes of Prayer 5. Of the Qualifications of Church members 6. Of SubmissioÌ„ Non-CoÌ„munioÌ„ 7. Of Excommunication 8. Of the Power of the Civill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticals 9. Of Separation and Schisme 10. Of Tolerations and particularly of the Toleration of Independencie 11. Of Suspension from the Lords Supper 12. Of Ordination of Ministers by the people 13. Of Church Covenant 14. Of Non-residencie of Church-members Humbly also submitted to the Honourable Houses of Parliament By THOMAS EDWARDS Minister of the Gospel Ephes. 4. 14. That we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the slâ—…ight of men and cunning craftinesse whereby they lie in wait to deceive Vers. 〈◊〉 But speaking the truth in love may grow up into him in all things which is the head even Christ. Matth. 24. 26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you Behold he is in the desart go not forth Behold he is in the secret chambers believe it not Augustinus Vincentio epist. 48. Non enim propter malos boni deserendi sed propter bonos mali tolerandi â—…ti sicut toleraverunt prophetae contra quos 〈◊〉 dicebant 〈◊〉 communionem sacramentorum illius populi relinquebant Bezae epist. prima D'Andreae Duditio lactabimusne libertatem conscientiis permittendam esse Minime ut haec quidem liberta intelligitur id est ut quo quisque modo volet Deum colat Est enim hoc mere diabolicum dogma Sinendum esse unumquemque ut si volet pereat Et illa est diabolica libertas quae Poloniam Transylvaniam hodiè tot pestibus implevit quas nullae alioqui sub sole regiones toleratent London Printed by G. M. for Ralph Smith at the Bible in Cornhill neer the Royall Exchange 1644. To the tender Consciensed scrupulous doubting Christian. DEare and beloved Christians for your salâ—…es in speciall who are apt to be troubled with many doubts and feares about the Constitution and Government of the visible Church and the way of Worship and Communion in it have I drawn up this present Answer as to undeceive you in the Apologists the Apologie and their Church-way so to satisfie you in your scruples and doubts about Presbyterie It was my love care and respect to tender consciences that more especially moved me at first now some seven yeares agoe to fall upon the more thorough studying and searching into the controversies of the Church c. And the grounds which now of late have afresh revived my thoughts and studies that way are 1. The recovering and reducing conscientious Christians who are not too far engaged 2. The setling some who are wavering and doubtfull 3. The keeping of others from falling Now the first borne of my latter thoughts and studies in this kind is this Antapologiâ—… which I here recommend to you for a true glasse to behold the faces of Presbyterie and Independencie in with the beauty order strength of the one and the deformity disorder and weaknesse of the other And good Reader I have some reason to beleeve and hope that if you will indeed reade and consider looke impartially and throughly into this glasse you may be either changed into the image of it or at least so stumbled at Independencie as to be kept from falling into it and willing in the meane time to waite upon God in that way of his an Assembly of so many learned and godly Divines to see what he will be pleased to speake by them I at first intended and accordingly provided materials for a large Epistle to this Book the more to make way for it in the hearts and consciences of the people as well knowing there are laid in before hand by many of the Independent party many prejudices both against my person and the Book to hinder if possible the fruit and benefit of it yea to keep people from so much as reading any part of it that so receiving and beleeving the Independent Grounds without hearing or examining the other side they may be still kept in ignorance and error I had many thoughts and purposes in my Epistle to have given the Reader an accompt of my especiall call to the making this Answer as also to have laid downe the Principles and Rules I more especially went by in the studying of these controversies and then to have Apologized for my selfe and Book by answering some objections and clearing aspersions cast abroad in this mistaking age and by representing to the Reader my many sufferings constant labours c. and so to have compared my grounds moving me to make this Antapologia with the Apologists grounds occasioning their Apologeticall Narration and my Principles with their three Principles expressed in their Apologie and my sufferings troubles patience and labours with their exile and patience c. and then left them to the Reader to judge in those matters between us but conceiving the danger of this way in comparing with the Apologists least I might become a foole in glorying and runne into the same fault I charge upon the Apologists and least it might be thought I sought to commend my Answer by such wayes rather then by the strength of the discourse it selfe I resolved to forbeare all those comparisons and vindications of my selfe and to refer all to God and that I may not hold the Reader too long in the portch I will only insist somewhat upon justifying and clearing the lawfulnesse of the way and manner of this Answer and the grounds I goe upon for matters of fact reported in it and this I must doe of necessitie for besides other grounds calling for it within these few dayes just before the Antapologie was comming forth a Pamphlet entituled The Anatomist Anatomized was printed rather to prepossesse the Reader against the Antapologie then to answer the Anatomie of Independencie as all may see and to be a shelter rather against this shower as the Anatomizer calls it ready to fall then to dry up the drops already fallen But 〈◊〉 shall by the helpe of God not only satisfie the Reader that this covering is too narrow and the stuffe too slight to keep out the shower from wetting but make an advantage of it even
and had not the truth constrained me my call to this worke beene strong and the cause of God and Reformation much in my eye I had out of my personall love and respect to some of the Apologists given over the worke I can and am ready to doe them any service of love even the meanest to wash their feet and should much rejoyce in their happy union and growing into one body with us in this Reformation And let not this Answer for the truth and plainnesse of it be branded for a bitter rayling malitious Answer but let this also be added to the former premises that the Apologists needed such an Answer as should not flatter nor extoll them but be free and plaine for the truth is the Apologists have been too much flattered both in their persons and Church-way and they are undone for want of being dealt with plainely and freely a candle hath been too much held to them and I hope this Answer may doe much good even to abate their swellings and confidence and if many of the Ministers would deale more plainely with them it would be better both for them and us I remember a passage of Calvin in an Epistle of his to Melancthon concerning Luther which may be applied to the Ministers in reference to the Apologists how that if there were that mind in all of us which ought to be some remedy might be found And certainly we transmit an unworthy example to posterity whilst we cast away all liberty rather then we will offend one man and will not his vehemencie the more rise and grow whilst all beare with him and suffer all things c. 4. Answ. The writing of Books against the errors and opinions though of good men is not speaking against good men or opposing godlinesse when the Apologists in their Apologie writ against Authoritative Presbyteriall Government and in page 〈◊〉 and 24 of theiâ—… Apologie doe professedly declare they judge the Calvinian Reformed Churches to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves and that the truth lyes in the â—…ddle way betwixt Authoritative Presbyteriall government c. did they speake against the Saints and all the godly Ministers in those Churches when Paul withstood Peter to the face because he was to be blamed for his withdrawing and separating did Paul speake against the Apostles of Christ or speake evill of the Saints no more doe I in writing this Booke Good Reader Not to deâ—…ine thee longer from enâ—…ing into the house it selfe lay all things together consider wisely of persons and things and have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ the Lord of glory with respect of persons Accept and take in good part what is now brought to thy hand as intended for thy spirituall good for the recovering or preserving thee from errors on the right hand and let love cover any mistakes or faults thou maist meet with in it I am but one against five as also in so many sheets there may well be Errata and all things not so strong in much writing a mans pen may slip and mistake and with long waking a watchfull man may winke now and then consider also this Answer hath been made in the midst of much preaching and many other businesses having been destitute also of some advantages and helps which at another time I might have had Thy good acceptance of it thy profiting by it and thy earnest prayers to God for me will encourage me to goe on in further writing to which I have so deeply engaged my selfe in this Book and God sparing me life and health I have taken up a fixed resolution never to give over writing till this Church be setled and these great schismes amongst us healed But if it should so happen that this Antapologia should profit nothing at all many Christians whom I intend it most unto yet I question not but it will profit some even as Augustine in his Epistle to Vincentius writes even them who have a care to reade it with the feare of God and without respect of persons Now the God of truth and peace reveale abundance of truth and peace and give us truth and peace always by all meanes He fulfill that promise in Ieremie to his people in this Kingdome to give them one heart and one way to feare him for the good of them and their children after them And so commending thee deare Christian to God and the word of his grace and this work of mine to his blessing I conclude this Epistle as Beza doth his to Duditius Farewell The Lord keep thee and all thine from all evill and especially from nooneday Devils which walke about in this place and in these times that is from the errors of Anabaptisme Brownisme Antinomianisme Toleration of Sects and schismes under pretence of libertie of conscience Amen Yours in Christ Tho. Edwards Errata Page 1. Marg for Mat. 1. reade Mat. 1â—… p. 12. l 6. adde and. p. 14. l. 22. for had r. have p. 36. l. â—…0 Tor wa r. is p. 41. l 15. for nor r. not p. 42. l. 29. for Pareusâ—… r. Pareushesessâ—… p. 43. l. 1â—… for satisfie r. satisfied p. 44 l. 24. for conceive r. conceived p. 46. l. 19. at the full point 6. following linâ—… though they be printed of the same character which the words of the Letter are yet they be the words of the Author of this Answer p. 47. l. 6. for remaine t remâ—…e p. 53. l. 14. adde after relâ—… short p. 57. l. 28. but must be transposed after there and dele the p. 64. l. â—…1 r. for which though comming it be which committed though it be p. 6â—… l. 15. 〈◊〉 censures adde the. p. 85. l. 15. for libâ—…tles r. Libertines p. 8â—… l. 30. for marks r. rules p. 94. l. 26. after others adde to all the Ordinances p. 101. l. 17. r. for leave to follow leave follovving the. p. 107. l. 9. r. for conceiving receiving p 124. l. 〈◊〉 for to r. of l 9. for reall r. evill p. 134. l. 16. for Offices upon mistaken partialitiâ—… r. offences upon mistakes and partialitie p. 1â—…5 l. 2. r for iudge it iudged p. 153. l. â—…4 for each r. the p. 154. l. 12. addd after be as p. 156. l. 2. at thus must be a full point and all the semicircles in this page must be put out p. 217. l. â—…7 for state parsâ—…te r. state part p. 28â—… l. 28 for pleasâ—… r. partakerâ—… p. 305. for sâ—… r. 〈◊〉 p. â—…71 l. 〈◊〉 adde for before 〈◊〉 full p. 285. l. 27. for diametrally r. diametrically p. 294. l. 2. for witnesses r witnessed p. 295. l. 〈◊〉 â—…adde after according to p. 2â—…6 l. 13. for should r. could p. 297. l. 36. for beate r. breake ANTAPOLOGIA OR A full Answer to a Booke Entituled An Apologeticall Narration c. AS the Assertors of truth through the subtilty and malice of Satan and his instruments causing prejudices and mistakes in the minds
by what I have answered already both of the weakenesse of that ground a sudden and unexpected noyse of confused exclamations and that in all reason you could not but expect exclamations that you were not enforced by that to make this Apologie and to anticipate the discovery of your selves Being schollers and understanding men you may blush to write that such poore things should inforce you against your resolutions but you were willing and desirous to make such an Anticipation and so you would make and find some ground for it judging a sorry excuse better then none at all but however you were not inforced to anticipate yet I must tell you this Aoplogie is an Anticipation with a witnesse such an Anticipation both for the unseasonablenesse of it and for the manner and way of it as I judge no story nor age can paralell it That you could not stay a little longer but in such a time when we need so much the assistance of our brethren of Scotland and the help of all other Reformed Churches in the face of the Parliament Assembly and Kingdome to put out such a peece and to doe such an act as this is beyond all example and I will but represent to your selves and the reader in a third person what you have done in making this Apologeticall Narration and then leave you to give sentence Suppose any other five Members of the Assembly men as considerable as your selves every way both for piety and learning nay any twenty Members of the Assembly had at the same time when you put forth this Apologeticall Narration only presented a bare Narration of a Government different both from the Government by Arch-bishops Bishops c. and from the Presbyteriall to both Houses of Parliament and that without reciting their doings and sufferings or pleading their great merits or without casting any aspertions on Presbyteriall government and the Reformed Churches and should have peremptorily concluded as you doe in two severall pages viz. 22 and 24. That we doe here publikely professe the true Government to stand and consist in the middle way betwixt that which is called Episcopall and Presbyteriall What would you five have thought of this and how think you would this have been taken by the Houses of Parliament and by the Assembly Whether would not you five and some others of you have cry'd out of this as a most strange fact and have strongly moov'd and aggravated it with all your might that this affront both to the Parliament and the Assembly so contrary to the nature and end of this meeting to pre-judge and pre-determine a Governement might be censured with a suspension from the Assembly at least if not an utter expulsion As for the discovering of your selves by this Apologeticall Narration which otherwise you should have left to time and experience This booke is not only a little discovery of your selves but a mighty discoverer of your wayes and spirits and shewes us what we may judge of you who will put out in publike a piece so fallacious and untrue as this will appeare to be But how ever this is the first discovery of your selves in this way with all your hands subscribed yet we have had a discovery of you for some yeeres past both in your practises of withdrawing from our Publike Assemblies and in gathering and constituting separated Churches preaching also often on the points concerning your Church-way as also writing Letters and other Manuscripts about â—…ose matters with other wayes wherein time and experiâ—…ce of 7 or 8 yeares last past hath been sufficient discoverers and sure judges of you and your actions And now we shall begin to make some appearance into publike light unto whose view and judgements should we that have hitherto laine under so darkâ—… a cloud of manifold mis-apprehensions at first present our selves but to the Supreame judicatory of this Kingdome which is and hath beene in all times the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse to appeare before much more to dare to appeale unto and yet withall the most sacred refuge ánd Asylum for mistaken and mis-judged innocence 'T is strange that having kept out of publike light as you say all this three yeares space you could not forbeare a little longer from telling fine stories of your selves and publishing your particular private opinions in print Especially considering there was an Assembly of Learned Divines of which you are Members to declare unto and with whom you might debate the points in difference where also you know you have all freedome and just respect And I must tell you 't is the judgement of some of your good friends that you were much mistaken in the time now and that you had been farre more excusable if you had put out this Apologeticall Narration a yeare or two agoe they interpreting it a violation of the Orâ—…nce by which you are Members a high affront and contempt to the Assembly in pre-judging of it and such a preingaging of your selves and party as you cannot retreat so easily and with that honour as you might before As also a ground of much disturbance and prejudice with the people against what shall be determined by the Assembly As to that you say we now begin to make some appearance into publike light In a sense'tis true for all the time that you have beene in your Church way both in Holland and England you have carried things closely and conceal'd all that you could possibly your opinions and practises with the grounds of them from your brethren the Ministers who studied and understood the points But for tender conscienced and weake Christians especially such whom you had any interest in any wayes and you had any probability to gaine to you you have not been wanting either in letters of Invitation or cominending some books of the Church-way to them as also by preaching and conference to draw them to you As for that quere Unto whose view and judgement should we at first present our selves but to the Supreame judicatory of this Kingdome I answer 1. To any rather then to the two Houses of Parliament to present before them such a darke covert doubtfull un-true Relation 2. In these points of difference about Church-government and worship you should have presented your selves rather to the Assembly than the Parliament and if you consult the Ordinance by vertue of which you are Members you will find it more conformable to have first propounded your doubts to the Assembly and if the Assembly could not have satisfied you then afterwards you had an allowance of giving in your Dissents with the grounds of them to both Houses As to that passage Your having hitherto laine under so darke a cloud of manifold misapprehensions which you make the ground of first presenting your selves to the Parliament by this Apologie How does this agree with what you write in page 24 And we found many of those mists that had gathered about us or were rather cast
beleeve as if you had and that you declined the rocks and shelves they ran upon But if you did discover those principles of the Brownists which were the causes of their divisions why doe you passe them over in silence In this Apologeticall Narration you make many a parenthesis and addition to what you are speaking of nothing so materiall nor proper to the points in hand for example In that passage immediately following these words you lanch out into the high praises of New-England in many lines as the laying downe those principles which are the causes of the Brownists divisions would have been So that I much wonder if you found them out that you past them over in silence for these might have been of great use to the Separatists themselves for the time to come and of great use to have preserved others from Brownisme who are inclining that way besides the benefit to your own party by looking upon them to prevent the like fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks in their way so that I know not how this omission of yours can be excused Besides how came it to passe that you who are the Authours of this Apologie and your Churches made no better an use of all your enquiry and discovery but in the time you were abroad to fall into the same fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks namely the same divisions and sins nay greater and worse then some of the Separatists Churches did as ever I heard For proofe whereof I have been informed both by word of mouth and Letters from good hands of these following particulars In Holland there were but two Churches of your way and communion one of which was at Rotterdam where Mr Bridge and Mr Sympson were members and afterwards Mr Burroughs which Church of Rotterdam like the old Separatists at Amsterdam split into two Mr Sympson at first and some others after him renting themselves from Mr Bridges Church to the great offence thereof Mr Sympson setting up a new-Church Mr White the Merchant and his wife only at first joyning with him Mr Sympsons Church being founded by a woman Mr Bridge himselfe heretofore telling me so and calling Mrs White the Foundresse of that Church And after this great rent and setting up a Church against a Church under Mr Bridges nose Mr Ward Mr Bridges colleague and old friend at Norwich was deposed from his Ministery and office for frivolous matters and some differences by Mr Bridges Church And here if I should but relate all the maine passages that fell out between these Ministers and their Churches after this Renting and Deposition within the space of a yeare following namely the Letters sent into England each for themselves and against each other all the stories told of one another and all the bitternesses and revilings between the Churches of Mr Bridge and Mr Sympsons with the desperate scandalls and reproaches cast out especially upon Mr Bridge the Readers eares would tingle and I should be too long especially because I must touch upon this string againe when I come to that story related in the Apologie page 16. The other Church was first at Viana then at Arnhim of which Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye were Teachers concerning which Church if I should but relate all the strange conceits and opinions held and practised in that Church besides some preach't even before Mr Goodwins and Mr Nye's comming back to England with all the differences and divisions that fell out I should make this answer too large I will for the present relate these few passages reserving the rest till I put out aâ—… Rejoinder upon their Reply to this Answer Anointing the sick with oyle was held in that Church of Arnhim as a standing ordinance for Church members for others had no right to that ordinance as laying on of hands was a standing ordinance for Church Officers There was a writing amongst them in many hands prooving it to be so and there were some cases propounded with what oyle the sicke members of the Church were to be anointed and there was a resolution of the case namely with Olive oyle A copy of this writing some Ministers of the Assembly have perused and one of them hath it amongst his papers in the Countrey Mr Goodwin did anoint a Gentlewoman whose name I conceale when she was sick and she recovered after it they say A Gentleman of note in that Church one of those two so much commended in the twentieth page of this book for wisedome and piety did propound in the Church that singing of Hymnes was an ordinance which is that any person of the Congregation exercising their own gifts should bring aâ—… Hymne and sing it in the Congregation all the rest being silent and giving audience now upon the propounding of this another Gentleman did oppose it as not judging it an ordinance to whom the former Gentleman replied that he destroyed in opposing this what he had built up whereupon words passing between them a difference grew between these two Gentlemen and this second Gentleman was complained of to the Church by the first and upon hearing the whole businesse and all words that past between them this second Gentleman was censured by the Church and Mr Nye charged sin upon him that was the phrase in many particulars and still at the end of every charge Mr Nye repeated This wis your sin After this censure so solemnly done the Gentleman censured brings in Accusations against Mr Nye in severall Artiles charging him with pride want of charity c in the manner of the censure And this being brought before the Church continued in debate about halfe a yeare three or foure dayes in a weeke and sometimes more before all the Congregation divers of the members having callings to follow they desired to have leave to be absent Mr Goodwin ofâ—… profest publikely upon these differences if this were their Church-fellowship he would lay downe his Eldership and nothing was more commonly spoke among the members then that certainely for matter of Discipline they were not in the right way for that there was no way of bringing things to an end At last after more then halfe a yeares debate not being able to bring these differences to an end and being to come into England they had their last meeting about it to agree not to publish it abroad when they came into England hoping that God would give some opportunity when they came into England to make an end of it which whether it be ended yet I doubt much because of some speeches reported to me spoken by one of these persons concerning the other two Now if this Church of Arnhim consisting of Ministers moderate and wise standing upon their credits and reputations and of prime Gentlemen and pick't Christians being in exile and leaving all for their consciences as they say doe yet run into such strange conceits and breake among themselves thus what can be expected of Independent Churches here that may consist of raw and fiery
not deale fairely in abridging the Scriptures and making your supreme rule so narrow as the Acts and Epistles and I might justly stand upon it to make you inlarge your rule to the books both of Old and new Testament yet well knowing the Acts of Apostles and Epistles will cast you I am well contented and most ready at that weapon alone to try it with you and care not in the present controversie of the Church-way as to let all other Authours so for the old Testament and that part of the New too the Gospells to stand by And if you can make good out of the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles by any Apostolike direction patterne or example of those Primitive Churches directed by the Apostles many things you practise and maintaine as Ordination of Ministers by the people alone as your Church-covenant as a few private Christians to gather and constitute a Church as persons to be members of such Congregations where they live constantly many miles distant from their Ministers and the meeting places with other such I will yeeld the cause and if I make not good from the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles things mainly opposed by you but affirmed by us As that of particular Churches to consist of more then can meet in one place to be edified in all parts of worship with other such then blame me So that I may say of your Church-way and the questions between us as Tertullian answered long since some hereticks That if they were to be determined by the Scriptures they would not subsist Now as to the ground of this principle within you yeur consciences were possest with that reverence and adoration of the fullnesse of the Scriptures that there is therein a compleate sufficiency as to make the man of God perfect so also to make the Churches of God perfect c. First I answer Your ground here alledged doth not prove your supreame rule without you namely the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles to be compleatly sufficient to make the Churches of God perfect because that speakes as of the whole Scriptures that there is in them a compleat sufficiencie and not as of a part now though the Scriptures may be and are so full and perfect yet every part may not you can in reason conceive that the whole may be compleatly sufficient to all ends and uses for which it was intended when a part or parts may not suffice And that Scripture which you allude unto for proofe 2 Tim. 3. v. 16 17. speakes of the whole Scripture and not of a part only the Papists would have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that text to signifie non totam sed omnem Scripturam and so would give that praise not to the whole body of the Scriptures but to particular parts of it Learned Chamier snewes the contrary how that the whole Scripture is here rather to be understood and he proves it by a threefold argument and in this great question between us and the Papists An Scriptura Christianum perfâ—…ctum reddat resolves the question to be understood of the whole canon in the Old and new Testament And so doth Dr Whitakers by which you may judge how unsufficient and short your first principle was being only a part of the Scriptures but not the whole and you may observe the fallaciousnesse of your reason propounded to argue from the whole to a part because the whole Scriptures have a compleat sufficiencie to make the Churches of God perfect therefore the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles have too Secondly I doe also adore the fullnesse of the Scriptures and God forbid that I should take from the Scriptures any thing God gives unto them or that which in the Scripture is attributed unto it but we must not give unto the Scriptures more then what God intended them for or what the Scripture affirmes of it selfe for that is to be wise above what is written and to adde unto the word and may be and hath been a ground of dangerous consequence in the Church of God and to cleare it from your own instances of exception Meere circumstances we except c. Now suppose some to speake as you doe and to be really acted also upon the same ground of the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures should yet affirme of the Scriptures without all exception of me 〈◊〉 circumstances and of the rules which the law of nature doth in common dictate and should say nothing must be practised no not in meere circumstances but by some direction from the word and as for the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate in them also the Scripture gives light how to doe them and thereupon should speake as you doe all along in this Section would not this prove inconvenient and trouble you in your Churches Nay suppose some should so extoll the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures that they should hold them so perfect and sufficient for all Christians as to be a perfect rule for all civill government and that Chrstian common-wealths ought to be governed by lawes only there recorded and by no other which opinion in substance Carolostadius held That in Courts of justice Judges should not proceed according to humane laws but according to the law of Moses and so for Military practises should hold all the way of Warre must be founded upon the Scriptures and thereupon should clamour against any other art and way of Warre then what was practised there What would you reply to these men or what strength were there in such principles would not you answer them in what sense the Scriptures were perfect and how they must understand it Men have often by giving more to the most excellent creatures and things then the Scriptures allow fallen into great errors and mistakes The Papists and Ubiquitaries speake highly of the body of Christ and 't is all in the way of magnifying it and Schuvenckfeldius did boast himselfe to be the Assertor of the glory of the flesh of Christ in Heaven which other Preachers neglected or else opposed and yet all these held great errors about the body and humane nature of Christ under the notion of advancing it So in the present controversie by giving to the Scriptures that which God hath not given to them both is and may be a ground of error And therefore I referre you for the true sense of that question concerning the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures to make the Churches of God perfect unto the answers our Protestant Divines give the Papists in that controversie about the perfection of the Scriptures And by the way let me commend to you and all the Ministers of the Church-way to study our Protestant writers as Whitakers Chamier c. against the Papists upon the Church and of the notes of the visible Church upon the controversie concerning the
matters of greatest moment and controversie we still choose to practise safely and so as we had reason to judge that all sorts or the most of all the Churches did acknowledge warrantable although they make additaments thereunto To this third great principle of yours I answer 1. To it generally as you lay it downe here generally and afterwards more particularly to the instances and particulars brought by you to make it good In this principle you labour to cast an odium upon all the reformed Churches who differ from you dealing by them in such a medium and way as the Protestants doe by the Papists wheras we alleadge against the Papists that the Protestant Religion is via tuta and what we practise they themselves cannot but allow only they hold and practise over and above as namely they adde to Christs Righteousnesse their own in the point of Justification to Christs intercession the intercession of the Virgin Mary and Saints to prayers unto God prayers to Angels and Saints to the Scriptures the traditions of the Church to our Sacraments confest by themselves five others c. So here you say that you chose to practise safely and so as you had reason to judge other Churches did acknowledge warrantable but they make additaments and this you weave in all along in the particular instances under this head and it lyes upon them to prove what they adde over and above Now besides the great dissimilitude and difference of additaments in the things themselves between the Protestants and Papists and you and the reformed Churches the Papists additaments being in matters of faith and substance of worship but the matters excepted against by you being about outward government and order and that not so much about the things themselves the officers parts of worship but about the different manner and way of them as you acknowledge in your eighth pages and so you had no such cause to insinuate such matters against the reformed Churches yet consider that what you doe hold forth and take as your medium you have no good ground for which will appeare in three particulars and so your Apologie held forth unto the world is neither true nor just 1. I will demonstrate that in many matters of greatest moment and controversie you did not still choose to practise safely and so as you had reason to judge that all sorts or most of the Churches did acknowledge warrantable 2. That the reformed Churches practised more safely then you and did not make additaments as you charge them 3. That you in many Church practises have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then in such circumstances wherein you tax the reformed Churches For the first of these three Take these three Instances for the present 1. It is a matter of great moment and controversie to forsake the publike Assemblies which you confesse are true Churches and the body of Christ and to set up separated assemblies without and against the leave of the Magistrate Ministers and Churches This is by the judgment of all the godly and learned Divines of note both in other Churches and in our own condemned as unlawfull by Calvin Beza Peter Martyr Zanchius Bullinger Iunius Pareus Morneus Arnesius Voetius c. with Whitakers Brightman Perkins Cartwright Parker Banes Hildersham Ball. c. I could fill a booke with the testimonies of these and many others and I doe challenge the Separatists of all sorts whether them of the head-forme the Anabaptists or of the middle-forme the old Brownists or the lowest-forme the Semi-Separatists to give me any precept or allowed example of such a practise out of the Primitive patterne shew it me and I will yeild the cause As for that place Rev. 18. 4. you professe against that in your 6 t page of having any thoughts of our Churches or Ministers to be Antichristian and Babilonish I could alledge many Scriptures against this practise Iude v. 19 c. The Apostles who were sent by Christ into the world to make Disciples and to bring men from Judaisme and Heathenisme to beleeve in Christ and to plant Churches of such yet they never taught nor practised to gather and separate some Christians from the rest one part of the Church from the other to goe constitute a purer Church neither in Corinth Philippi c. Although there were many corruptions and many loose persons But Paul taught and practised to censure and cast out evill persons but in case those who had power neglected their duty he never taught the godly to separate from the Lords Supper celebrated in the publike Assemblies much lesse for a few to withdraw from their Pastours and other brethren and to set up new Churches of themselves You are Schollers and well read in the Scriptures shew me but any such direction from the Apostles and I am yours 2. It is a matter of moment and controversie the right making and calling of the Ministers of the Gospell now all the reformed Churches according to the examples of Scripture hold Ministers are not to be made by the people alone and that the people have not power of Ordination and Imposition of hands but the Presbyters and yet you have practised the being cal'd and made Ministers by the people without the Imposition of hands of the preaching Presbyters 3. It is a matter of great moment and controversie whether private Christians who were never trained up in Arts and learning nor intended the Ministery may in the publike Congregation Prophesie which Prophesying as it is not practised by the Reformed Churches so by most of them it is not counted warrantable and yet you allowed it in your Churches to which I might adde more instances but that the book would swell into too great a volume To the second head it is evident the râ—…formed Churchs practised more safely as in declining your way in the last mentioned Instances in not permitting such as are Lay-men to preach or prophesie in not forsaking true Churches or true Ministery for the mixture of wicked men but rather casting out such who after admonition continue impenitent so in other practises practising as the Apostles receiving men into their fellowship without any such curious inquirie and long detention sending men from one to another and requiring such preparatives and conditions to Church-fellowship as your Churches have done The wayes and practises the reformed Churches walked in were the good old way knowne and beaten for some score of yeares in which so many great lights and godly people have walkt and so more safe then bie and new wayes that a few men but of yesterday have taken up and have not yet well aired much lesse digested And in the name of other reformed Churches France Holland Scotland I deny the things you charge them with to be additaments or to be properly so called for if the particulars instanced in by you will be found to have a footing in the Scriptures and practised
in the Primitive Apostolicall Churches then they will be no additaments or if some of those things alleadged by you be of the nature of circumstances in the point of government and order or according to the rules of the law of nature and the rules of common prudence agreeable also to the generall rules of the word then they are not truly by you called additaments and super-additions for it is one thing to adde to the word of God and his worship and another thing from generall rules of the word and common principles of the light of nature and prudence considering the differences of times places persons dispensations of guifts to explicate and determine of many things in the administration of the visible Church Now of things of this kind something must be which the word of God presupposes or else you can have no setled government in the Church and you may as well stile set Catechismes confessions of Faith reading of Chapters translated by others singing of Psalmes between Chapters and after Sermons preaching constantly upon Texts of Scripture giving thanks after eating meat c. additaments as some of the things instanced in by you And let me hint this to you which I know you understand well enough but forget it often to paralell it with other passages that in your practise of the administration of the Sacraments and in other parts of worship you adde severall things besides what is recorded of Christ or the Apostles practise or given particularly in any precept which I speake not to blame such practises but to minde you such things are not fitly stiled additaments To the third that you have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then the reformed Churches being your selves guilty of what you accuse them this being the strongest plea and the only plea to speake of in all your book by way of Argument the rest being bare narrations I shall make good against you by particular instances the prooving of which practises of yours from Apostolicall directions must rest upon you who doe them and in so doing have departed from your selves and other reformed Churches amongst many particulars take these following To the Ministeriall preaching and dispensation of the word you subjoyned prophesying by the people 2. To the power of government by the Officers of the Church you have added the power of the people 3. In joyning in particular Congregations you did super-adde the Church-covenant 4. To the Pastour you super-adde the Teacher as a necessary distinct Officer from him and so necessary as in one of your Churches you had two Teachers and have been some yeares without a Pastour at all which is a sad condition for people to be without a Sheapheard 5. To the Deacon you added the Church-widdow as a distinct Officer and as necessary for the perpetuall government of the Church 6. To our Parochiall Assemblies in England which you call in the sixt page the true Churches and body of Christ and abhorre the thought of counting them Antichristian where you say you hold communion as with true Churches you have super-added and erected new-Churches 7. To our Ministery of the Parochiall Assemblies which is true also by your own confession and not Antichristian you have superinstituted and superinducted another Ministery any one of which particulars to be laid downe in the Primitive patterne I professedly deny and it rests upon you who allow what reformed Churches practise but in the particulars instanced and many more doe practise over and above what the reformed Churches doe to make evident and demonstrate upon cleare grounds especially when men set up a new way and leave the practise of all reformed Churches double light being required for separation in any kind whereas single light sufficeth for any man continuing in his standing And certainly of all other things in the matter of practise in the visible Church the medling with the keyes of the kingdome of God both in doctrine and discipline with the withdrawing and forsaking the true Churches of Christ and the Ministerie thereof wherein men have been converted and built up and have converted and built-up so many with the setting up of new Churches against the leave and will of the civill Magistrate without the consent of those Churches departed from and to the scandall and griefe of so many godly Ministers and Christians nay the scandall of all Reformed Churches and all this under pretence of spirituall power and liberty purchased for them by Christ had need have a cleare and full proofe and not be built only upon such weake and slight grounds as flattering similitudes witty allusions remote consequences strained and forced Interpretations from hard and much controverted Scriptures And now by what I have alreadie answered to this Principle in these three particulars let the indifferent Reader and your owne consciences be judge whether you or the Reformed Churches practise most safely and doe that which most Churches acknowledge warrantable and who is most guilty of making additaments when as you and all of your way allow that which they practise in the seven particulars instanced in but you practise many things which all Churches condemne excepting the Churches of the Independent way and if one thing be considered to what I have said that you put the weight and stampe of divine Institution and of necessitie upon your additaments making them parts of worship and essentiall as upon prophecying as upon the office of teachers distinct from Pastours c. but the Reformed Churches in what you call their additaments even in some of them instanced in by you put not so great an authoritie but only an allowance and lawfulnesse of set-formes of prayer prescribed not a necessity but a lawfulnesse of mixtures in Congregations so as not to leave the Church for that and in other practises you count additaments in matters circumstantiall of time place manner and way of doing things which upon good reasons may be changed so that here is a wide difference between that which you call their additaments and yours truly so called and let me adde this that the great pinch of a conscience and the poyson in Ecclesiasticall matters concerning outward Government and order wherein the Scripture hath not laid downe a particular rule for lyes in the stampe of putting a necessitie and a divine Institution upon them and unto such and of such is that Scripture spoken so frequently in the mouthes of men of your way In vaine doe you worship me teaching for doctrine the commandements of men For instance whereas one great controversie of these times is about the qualification of the Members of Churches and the promiscuous receiving and mixture of good and bad therein we chose the better part and to be sure received in none but such as all the Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull And yet in this we are able to make this true and just profession
also that the rules which we gave up our judgements unto to judge those we received in amongst us by were of that latitude as would take in any member of Christ the meanest in whom there may be supposed to be the least of Christ and indeed such and no other at all the godly in this kingdome carry in their bosomes to judge others by We tooke measure of no mans holinesse by his opinion whether concurring with us or adverse unto us And Churches made up of such we were sure no Protestant could but approve of as touching the members of it to be a true Church with which communion might be held And having answered generally I come now to the particulars brought to make this third principle good and shall shew how little there is in them to make good that they are brought for To your first instance of chusing the better part and to be sure receiving in none for members of Churches but such as all Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull 1. To speake nothing now of that how in Churches there may be a receiving to some of the ordinances and so to be under the care of the Ministers a receiving of others that is there may be members to a part and there are members as to all the ordinances and so according to the first there may be a promiscuous receiving and mixture for which I can give good reasons and instances as in children catechumenists but must not handle at large every point now which your Narration hints aâ—… 2. In your admission of members you chose not the better part nor the safer To goe on the hand of charitie and love is the better part and safer hand which charitie if you looke into the 1 Cor. 13. hopes the best thinkes no evill c. And a man had better receive some of whom there may be some doubt and feare then discourage and refuse any of Christ little ones which both your principle and practise hath done abundantly in New-England and in England But here in your Narration you deale fallaciously in stating the question For the question is not about receiving in none but such as all Churches in the world would acknowledge faithfull but about receiving in all and refusing none whom the Churches had no reason but to acknowledge faithfull For according to your words laid downe and as you would carry it to deceive the Reader with of receiving none but such as all Churches would acknowledge faithfull you might receive in but a few of high forme Christians whom also all the Churches in the world would not as some hold the ballance acknowledge to be faithfull and so you might receive in but a very few And it is evident by your practise that many whom all the Reformed Churches hold fit to be received having a competent knowledge of God Christ and themselves and live free from all scandalous and grosse sins and outwardly practise duties both to God and man even multitudes of these you will not admit nor doe not into your Churches And as to that just and true profession you are able to make That the rules you gave up your judgements unto to judge those you received in amongst you by were of that latitude to take in any member of Christ c. I must tell you this is like some of your just and true professions before namely unjust and untrue this is neither the first nor the last unjust and untrue profession in your Narration and I shall make it good both by your practises by some rules laid down by some of your selves Mr Goodwins letter in answer to Mr Iohn Goodwin grants they require of men to admission into their Churches that they know what belongs to Church-fellowship and doe acknowledge the same and approve thereof with other things of that nature now whether this be a rule of that latitude that will take in any member of Christ the meanest in whom there may be supposed to be the least of Christ and indeed such and no other as all the godly in this kingdome carry in their bosomes to judge others by I appeale to your owne consciences That holy Martyr Bradford with many more not only the least but great starres in the firmament of the Church never knew nor dreamt of what belong'd to your Church-fellowship and I am confident that M. Goodwin M. Bridge my selfe with many others many yeares after wee were members of Christ and conversed together in Cambridge as Saints yet understood not what belonged to this Church-covenant and Church-fellowship and this is such a rule that multitudes of the godly in this kingdome carry not in their bosomes to judge others by nor would not themselves be judged by nor never heard of such things till your times And if your rules were of such a latitude as would take in any members of Christ the meanest whence came it to passe that in New-England so many men in whom the godly have presumed to be something of Christ and who are you to judge the contrarie have not yet been admitted and amongst many other instances that might be given in your owne Churches I will name one Mistris Symonds a modest humble woman many years well reputed of in England of godly Parents wife to a godly Minister who though her husband was received a member of M. Sympsons Church and then chosen the Pastour yet his wife could not be received into the Church along time and whether yet she be I know not I have been told also from one who lived in those parts that after M. Sympson upon rending from M. Bridge had set up a new Church one who was upon his tryall for admission into M. Sympsons Church was openly asked by a prime man who had a hand in that rent what his judgement was of the Brethrens libertie to prophecie and if the man had not been right in that point it might have hazarded his Membership And that the Reader may not be abused nor amused with such kind of passages but that it may appeare what ever here you say you have other rules and require other things of men to communion with you pray satisfie us What was the reason and what is the matter that when M. Iohn Goodwin fell to your principles and way so many godly persons of his owne Parish could not be received in by him as Church-members nor accounted so without yeelding to some rules and conditions which they being members of Christ and some of them nâ—…ne of the meanest could not condescend unto As to that you say You tooke measure of no mans holinesse by his opinion whether concurring with you or adverse unto you I appeale to your consciences if my selfe or some others whom you have accounted godly should have declared their opinions adverse to your Church-covenant and other of your Church principles and yet being in Holland should have desired for the time to have been
exception laid into all mens thoughts against your Congregationall way it 's both a just and strong Argument against it and that which many of your way when it hath been objected to them have confessed there is no remedy nor help in such cases but advice and counsell all must be left to Christ Christ will take care of his own way they had not found out this allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages which you have here propounded but I shall labour to make evident that all you bring by way of answer in declaration of your judgements and practise doth not satisfie this objection And first for your judgements in the principles you hold and lay downe I shall endeavour to prove that you have no Scripture grounds nor Primitive patterns for such principles and such a way in such cases Secondly Besides that these principles have no footing in Scripture and so they are no allowed remedy for miscarriages c. are not nor will not be a sufficient remedy for miscarriages nor reliefe for wrongfull sentences nor powerfull effectuall meanes to reduce a Church c. For the first I shall take it for granted you being wise men that in such a point as this being the maine point of difference betwen you and the Presbterians and at such a time as this you would bring the strongest Scriptures and grounds you had for your sacred principle and supreame law to be observed among all Churches namely of submission of Churchrs and for that other principle of pronouncing that heavy sentence of non-communion against a Church or Churches and if I can shew the invalidity and weaknesse of these brought by you a man may conclude ther 's no feare of what 's behind Now a man would wonder that wise men as you are should except against a government received so generally amongst the reformed Churchâ—…s and blessed so from Heaven in the effectualnesse of it for the space of so many yeares as a sufficient remedy not only to reduce men from heresies and schisme but to prevent Churches from falling into heresie schisme c. which is more and goe set up a new way so different and so distastfull to the reformed Churches and all upon pretences of no sound proofe in Scripture for such a government because there is not an Apostolicall direction either in example or precept for it and in the meane time to contend for such a government wherein yourselves cannot deny but hath fallen out strange miscarriages and you tell us an unhappy story for proofe and yet the way and course you have substituted for remedy hath neither example nor precept in the word of God to practise any title of all that you relate to us and besides that the course prescribed by you is not commanded in the word it is no whit so rationall nor conducible to the ends you appoint it for as we will shew presently Now for the Scriptures brought by you the first is 1 Cor. 10. 32. Give none offence neither to the Iewes nor to the Gentiles nor to the Church of God where first the Reader may observe you alter the text putting Churches of God instead of Church of God and then you adde they live amongst The alteration I suppose you make upon this ground for feare this text in the reading of it should hint that truth how the visible Church in Scripture is taken for more then one particular Congregation the addition they live amongst to make it a seeming ground for Churches in a vicinitie whereas the Apostle speakes of the Church of God generally all the Churches whether we live amongst them or farre from them and the scope of the Apostle in this place is upon the occasion of that particular offence which might arise to some Corinthians from eating meat sacrificed to Idols having been told that this is sacrificed to Idols to lay down a generall rule to all Christians against giving offence to any whether Jewes Gentiles or Christians under which three ranks all men then in those times were comprehended Now pray tell me how will you make this text to prove that Churches offending and distering among themselves must submit themselves to the most full and open triall and examination of other neighbour Churches offended and how will you from this place draw ouâ—… a power for neighbour Churches to send unto and require this of the Churches who have offended them This Scripture if all Interpreters understand it that I have consulted with layes downe a rule that every particular Christian and so all Christians must so walke as to become all things to all men to please all men in all things lawfull as the 33 verse interprets it and to give none offence But where doth this Scripture speake and how doth it affirme that if either Churches or particular Christians doe practise things that offend other Churches they who are offended have power and authority to send to them and to call them to the most full and open triall and examination and that such who are challenged to offend must submit to such a judiciall and open triall before all commers In this text there is no more said of the Church of God then of the Jews and Gentiles who must not be offended neither and will you allow Jewes and Gentiles offended by things done in your Churches to call your Churches to an account and you must submit This text reaches to Churches that live in other Countries and unto particular Christians though they be not members of any such instituted Church as you speake of so that by vertue of this text we ought to give them no offence but will you grant that Churches of other Countries and Kingdomes may call Churches in another Kingdome to an open triall and examination and send their messengers to question them and thereupon pronounce sentence of renouncing all Christian communion with them or that every particular man offended may call Churches to an account and they are bound to submit to hearing and tryall I will give you one instance I am much offended at the great rent and difference that was betwixt Mr Bridge and Mr Simpson and at Mr Simpsons setting up a new Church and at all that great bitternesse betwixt those Churches and I am much offended at the Church of Arnheim for letting passe that schisme and all those differences never questioning it especially questioning Mr Bridges Church Now have I a power by vertue of this precept to call both you and your Churches to an account and to require of you a most full and open tryall before all commers and are you bound to submit to it answer me this question in your Reply and you shall see what I will say to you in my Rejoinder For that other Scripture 1 Tim. 5. 22. Neither be partakers of othâ—… mens sinnes that is spoken to Timothy in regard of his authoritative power in the Church of God as the scope of the chapter and the immediate precedent words shew
which is not your case denying authoritative power but if you say this text is meant secondarily of all Churches and Christians though they have not authoritative power I grant it but then it is in wayes suitable which the word of God gives warrant and allowance for as in reproving mourning for the sin c. which must be shewne in some other Scriptures For else the Presbyterians may pretend by vertue of this text that they ought not to be partaker of other mens sins that they may censure depose excommunicate members of other Churches who are suffered to goe on in sin better then you can draw from this text that you may call not only particular members but whole Churches to an account examine them and pronounce that heavy sentence of non-communion against them But in a word bretheren let me tell you if such generall texts as these that may be applied to any course and way conceived by men in their own braines to hinder sin and reduce from offences will serve turne for Church government and for remedies to reduce Churches then we can give you besides your own two texts quoted here for your principle of submission of Churches and non-communion many other such and more probable too for the authoritative power of Presbyteries and Sinods as that in 1 Cor. 14. 22. And the spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets but we are not so hard put to it there being particular instances and examples if the nature of an Answer to such a Narration would permit me to insist at large that proove the points in difference namely of acts of power exercised by Churches in common as in elections determinations and impositions upon differences and controversies as Acts 15. 2. 4 6 7 13 22 23 24 28 29. Acts 16. 4 5. 2 Corinih 8. 18 19. But let the indifferent reader judge by this which hath been said whether the reformed Churches or the Independent practise most safely there being a ground as your selves confesse for the sentence of excommunication such a sentence you acknowledge in particular Churches and practise it and such a sentence hath been decreed and past upon members of Churches by those who were not members of those Churches as the Scriptures are cleare for it 1 Tim. 1. 19 20. But on the other hand it is not granted that the Scriptures give any ground of pronouncing the sentence of non-communion against whole Churches or doe allow any such practise of declarations and protestations unto all Churches against whole Churches this I utterly deny and your Scriptures prove them not and I wonder how you dare call it the command of Christ and the way of Christ as you doe in page 18 19. And brethren besides that the Scriptures give neither precept nor example for your way of non-communion consider whether the Scriptures give not grounds rather to the contrary namely against a particular Churches withdrawing and renouncing all Christian communion with whole Churches upon an errour and miscarriage for let me aske you may not such a Church or Churches be true Churches for all this continue in their offices upon mistaken partiality and notwithstanding all the light a particular Church can give them be unsatisfied now if a particular man may not separate nor withdraw Christian communion from a true Church though upon his counsell and advise she redresse not but 't is a schisme then for one Church upon counsell and advice given to more Churches though not taken to separate formally from many Churches by pronouncing that heavy sentence of withdrawing and renouncing all Christian communion cannot be justified Paul did not renounce nor cast-off Churches for many things amisse though upon his counsell they were not mended as appeares in the Church of Corinth that had been twice admonished 2 Cor. 13. 1 2. and â—…t repented not and now Paul doth it the third time and yet refusing Pauls counsell and power being so infallible and authoritative deserved more the sentence of non-communion then the often rejecting the counsell and power of any particular Church can doe But I will answer you in your own language that your sacred and undoubted principles and supreame laws of submission of Churches and of the power of Churches offended to pronounce the heavy sentence of non-communion against the Churches offending and of Declarations and Protestations to all other Churches of Christ that they might doe the like with your own practise exprest in the 20 and 21. page are to me Apocriphâ—… and judge it to be an additament which therefore rests on you who allow the sentence of excommunication to make evident and demonstrate that of non-communion Protestations Declarations c. And thus it often falls out whilst men will oppose that which hath long been received in the Church of God upon pretence of the want of Scripture grounds and bring in new wayes they practise novelties upon lesse ground and foundation from Scriptures then they rejected the old as is to be seen in this instance 2. As these principles of yourâ—… have no footing in Scripture so it will appeare they are no sufficient remedies for miscarriages and evills which fall out in particular Churches by reason of their compleate and entire power within themselves first because there are more acts of power then your principle of submission of Churches and the instances you give upon it reach unto so that granting all you say of it yet it would but reach to that particular case or some such like cases but would be no way sufficient either for preventing or remedying other evills and mischiefs which dâ—…e and would arise upon a Congregationall government thus entire within it selfe So that here lies the fallacy in the question between you and the reformed Churches in point of government you speake to some points of government but not to all and instead of laying down principles that should answer all cases they only serve but to some and so your principles that should be simpliciter are only secundum quid For in the government of the Church there are many other acts of power as of making and ordaining Ministers of receiving in Members of agreeing upon a government doctrine and worship c. which this full compleat entire power of particular Congregations takes upon them to doe of which many great mischiefes doe arise and are like errours in the first concoction which your principle of submission of Churches reacheth not unto nor doth not help But secondly besides this the principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto the other Churches offended with that practise of Churches finally offended to denounce such a senâ—…ence of Non-communion doth not answer the case alleadged in heresies schisme or persons injured nor is not a sufficient remedie like that of combination of Elders and for the making good of that I shall examine the way and course prescribed by you in your principles here laid downe of Submission Non-communion Declarations and Protestations and
to their Ministers and Pastours with other such like 8. But in Ecclesiasticall matters and differences upon the Magistrates interposing his power what is it you will submit unto and what will you allow him to doe And what is that power you will give him in backing the sentence of Non-communion upon his judgement of the cause and how farre and in what will you obey him that so we may understand how this Civill power is intended by you for a remedie and helpe in Churches and betweene Churches For instance will you submit not to gather Churches nor set up Assemblies withoâ—…â—…is leave and upon complaints of the many mischiefes and differences occasioned thereupon will you upon his hearing both sides and judging that those who are gathered shall be dissolved dissolve them and not meet in those wayes any more Will you upon some members complaining to the Magistrate of some Minister or Ministers in their Church for preaching erroneous and unprofitable doctrine meere novelties subtilties and the Magistrate upon particular cognizance and examination of such causes judging that he shall preach no more will the Minister forbeare upon it or the Church to heare him in case the Minister would not yeeld will the Church now goe chuse a new and Orthodox Minister upon it or in case a member or more be unjustly excommunicated and they complaine to the Magistrate who calling the Church to account and hearing both sides shall judge on the Complaiants side and now order the Church to absolve him and order them to confesse their sinne publikely and appoint them to keepe a day of humiliation for it and order them to give him such a summe of mony for the wrong trouble and losse of his time in following the businesse against them will the Church now submit to doe all this yea or no What say you to these and the like cases Now I aske you this in the close because you pretend a great deale of submission to the Magistrate and to give him much power which though you did grant yet for the many reasons and grounds alreadie specified this would not countervaile the way of the Presbyterians in their spirituall censures by Presbyters and Synods whether you clearely and plainly allow this to the Magistrate because I finde in Manuscripts and heare that in Sermons by men of your Church-way the contrarie is publikely preacht and held as for example in that Treatise about a Church which goes under one of your names there is this passage with more to that purpose The Saints need not expect their power or leave for to gather together so as without it such a combination is unlawfull nor should they forbeare it out of conscience of the Magistrates prohibition indeed if the Magistrate should force or compell them to forbeare or persecute them they may forbeare actuall assembling Act. 8. 1. not because the Magistrate forbids it but in mercie to themselves And indeed about a Church Christian Magistrates have no more power then Heathen Magistrates had So that this is spoken by you where Magistrates are Christian and where Churches are already setled And adde to this that M. S. in his Reply in defence of your Apologie is against coercive and coactive power in matters of Religion and that you all hold a toleration and that the Magistrates ought not to hinder men or punish them for the matter of their consciences how then notwithstanding all your discourse of the power of the Magistrate which added to Non-communion will be an effectuall meanes to releeve persons injured to reduce Churches and persons going in schisme and errours shall persons injured be remedied or Churches and persons reduced For suppose the persons or Churches that now fall into such errours and schismes will pretend nay 't is so really that they in their conscience hold errours for truths and thereupon with-draw from such Churches to others nay suppose those who now receive these new truths should cast out of their fellowship and excommunicate some for holding otherwise as for instance a Church falling into Antinomianisme should censure some of their members that remain orthodox for legal Christians and for being enemies to free-grace and should judge themselves bound to doe so in these and such like cases what remedie is there for miscarrying Churches by all the power of the Magistrate you pretend to give to him But this is brought in here by you and given to him to put of that strong argument against your way and that you may have something for present to blind the eyes and stop the mouths of many that looke no further that it may serve your turne at such a straight whereas upon other principles you denie the Magistrate this when it shall come to be a matter of conscience And now by all the severall particulars under this fifth head the understanding Reader may observe that not only in many respects your non-Communion and Magistrates power are not a remedie comparable to the Presbyterian way not proper nor to the nature of the offences and things in question a way in stead of bringing things to an end redressing and mending matters amisse that will be but the beginning of more strife and making more differences and evils then either it sindes or can heale the mother and nurse of Confusions Disorders and endlesse contentions but also that all the power here pretended to be given to the Magistrate upon examination is no such matter nor will not amount to make good the ends propounded whereas the Presbyteriall Government here scandalized as either wholly inconsistent with this forme of Civill Government or else not giving it its due will be found by its principles not only to have powerfull spirituall remedies for all spirituall evils of the Church but will be found in many respects to make use of and to give honour and power to the Civill Magistrate as a nursing Father from first to last even in the ordinary way of the Order and Government of the Church beyond you besides what they give more in extraordinary cases in a Church miserably corrupted disordered c. Of which the Reader may read at large in Apollonius who was a great Presbyterian cap. 2. And so learned Zanchius in his Tractate de Magistratis shewes 't is in the power of the Magistrate not to suffer Heretickes nor erroneous persons to preach and he gives him coactive punitive power to cut them off Beza a great Presbyterian in his Epistles and other writings in matters of Religion doth not exclude the Magistrate but gives him that power in some things which you deny but besides that power they give the Magistrate they stand for as needfull in the Church Classes and Synods for the Government of it Zanchy shewes that discipline cannot take place where the Ministers never meet together the meâ—…ting of Ministers and Ecclesiasticall Synods we judge most necessary As no Politie Common-wealth or Kingdome can consist without their meetings Senates and Councels
so there is need of Synods for the governing of the Church and for the preventing of herâ—…fies In a word all things are loose in independent Government every one is left and may take liberty without controule to doe what is good in their owne eyes if they like not any Church whereof they are members they may goe to another nay a few in a Church disliking that Church may goe make a Church themselves and make Ministers and hold what they will as Mr Sympson did with some few more and since some have rent from Mr Sympsons Church as he from Mr Bridge The rules they goe by are loose nothing being fixed nor certaine among them and there can be no setlednesse of mind nor consistence of Principles in that way simple and well meaning people according to their Principles must be drawn till they come to that to hold that there are no true Churches nor Ministers at all yet upon the earth which principle begins to take and spread already amongst many Independents In a word that Liberty and loosenesse which is from first to last in Independent Government holding no authoritative Ecclesiasticall power out of the particular Congregation to remedie or prevent any matter and that which is in the particular Congregation being on many Grounds and Principles of theirs so slight and weake as the only subject of Excommunication being no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light c. as that two or three Saints or now of late six or seven may with-draw from Churches defective and impure and make Churches and chuse all officers c. with other like so that what need they care then for that Church of which they are members though cast out seeing they can make new and have all to their owne minde be chiefe there is a dangerous temptation even to sober men to make them presume to broach that practise that which else they would never have done But in the Order and Government of the Reformed Churches there is consistence unitie and strength as is evident by a hundred yeares visible experience of Gods blessing from heaven upon them there is also a certainty and fixednesse of rules agreed on both for particular congregations for Classes and Synods there is an awing and preserving of officers and people in their bounds and keeping them from running out to errours c. there being no man be he never so able or subtill that can escape calling to account and censure Magistrates and Ministers have their power in the Church without usurpation and confusion and to conclude in the words of the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were Magistrates and civill power acquainted with this order and government of the Church they would finde their authoritie increased their worke more easie and their places more comfortable thereby And now having given an answer to that part of your Apologie under that instance of the government and discipline of the Churches by speaking fully of those five heads unto which I referre all your discourse about the government and discipline of the Churches beginning in pag. 12. and ending in the 21. I will for a close speake something to some of your passages contained in this part of your Narration which could not so well be taken in nor so properly animadverted upon under those five heads without the Readers being much confounded and entangled 1. To that passage p. 14. We had for the most part of the time we were abroad three Elders at least in each congregation whom we were subject to I aske if the Churches were subject to the Elders you many times having but three and sometimes but two nay one Elder the government of your Churches then was either Monarchicall Government or Oligarchicall at best And if the Churches were subject to the Elders who were the Elders subject to the Elders then were under no subjection but if the Churches were subject to the Elders and not the Elders to the Churches riddle me what is the meaning of all those phrases the Church still did so and so not the Elders the Church at Roterdam deposed M. Ward and not M. Bridge and an Elder or two and so M. Nye and M. Goodwin the Ministers were sent by the Church and that Church which had offended confessed their sin and restored their Minister to his place againe which sure was not M. Bridge and a lay-Elder or two 2. To those passages of Churches offended calling to an account Churches offending proceeding to full and open tryals and examinations to Iudiciarie charges and deposition of witnesses openly before all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where Authority about them enjoyns it and of a particular Church being censurable by neighbour Churches about them I desire to put this disjunctive proposition Either this power of calling to an account examining deposing witnesses censuring them c. are acts of ruling and government and in the Churches challenged acts of subjection or they are not if you grant they be acts of rule and government then there is an authoritative power which Churches have out of their Churches and you grant it in such acts at least though not in that of excommunication But whether if it be so in these that of excommunication will not follow let it be considered for either the censure of excommunication is not founded upon the common grounds on which callings to account and some censures are or else there is some proper peculiar grounds in the nature of that ordinance or in the Scripture forbidding that though allowing others neither of which will be found to have a foundation in Scripture and if so why then doe you make all this adoe of entire full compleate power within your selves and are against the combination of Churches in Classes and Presbyteries to doe that constantly certainely and presently upon scandals that fall out in a Church which you doe at best but at uncertainties and after a long time when the remedy may come too late a yeare or two afterwards But if you answer these are no acts of government and rule in this Church or Churches but meerely acts of consultation advice perswasion and that when the Churches offended have heard all they only give their counsell and advice and commend it to them but it is in their liberty to doe or not to doe for though they submit to a hearing and open triall by vertue of the principle of submission yet they submitted not to stand to the determination and agreement of that Church or Churches I answer if you meane no more then the bare power of counsell and advice in all this and no power of Authoritative determination and decision this is no more nor you give no more to the Churches offended then to particular Christians who may counsell them in such cases And why then doe you hold out such words and your practise of a full and
write in any other sense but in the point of Ecclesiasticall government and power did we lay to your charge in our writing against Independencie that you challenged an exemption of all Churches from all subjection and dependance or rather that you should blow a trumpet of desiance against what ever power spirituall or civill did I or any others charge you with refusing all subjection to the civill Magistrate And for that other dependance of consultation and non-communion upon other Churches the power you give in that kind to Synods c. I acknowledged it in my eight reason and argued from thence to the power of excommunication why then doe you deale thus deceitfully and doubly pretending to abhorre and detest Independencie as it was objected and pleaded against you when as besides the very words and phrases found in so many printed books and notes you hold all that in the question which is the difference betwixt you and the Presbyterians as also in some of your books Independent and entire power are termini convertibiles as in the title of Sions Prerogative Royall which entire full compleate power in terminis and in so many sillables you owne more then once in this Apologie so that all your great words of abhorring and detesting the exemption of your Churches from all power spirituall or civill will not save you from Independencie justly affixed unto you As for civill power it is not the question in controversie neither was it affixt unto you and for spirituall power properly cal'd you deny it all along in many pages speaking against authoritative power often page 15 18 19. And to put you this Dilemma either you give authoritative power to other Churches or you doe not if you doe give it why doe you speake so against it in your Apologie but if you doe not give it why would you make your Reader beleeve you doe give spirituall power and are not against it is not this doubling and shuffling and troubling the waters that the Reader cannot tell where to find you nor what you hold too great an evidence of a weake and bad cause becomming not such men as you would be taken for truth is open and naked and doth not seeke out holes and subterfugies But brethren doe not deceive your selves nor your Reader any longer if you be not against spirituall power properly so called of any Classes or Synods in reference to particular Congregations what meane you by all you say from page 12 to the end of the 19 and of all that controversie and Tragedies made by you against the reformed Churches for giving a power to Classes and Synods and let me intreate you that the controversie may be brought to some end between you and us in your Reply set down particularly what you will allow to Classes Synods generall Assemblies and Councels in matter of government and whether that you will allow and give Authority and power yea or no and what you will not give nor allow them and then state the question so and I doe promise you in my Rejoynder to apply my selfe to give you satisfaction as if you except Excommunication Ordination or what else to show you the grounds for them and if we love truth and peace either you shall win me or I you 3. For the odious name of Brownisme together with all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them must needs be owned by us I answer Brownisme as you in these words expresse it hath not been fastned on you by any that I know but on the contrary you have been commonly contra-distinguish'd from them being called Independents Semi-separatists and in my reasons against Independent government I doe in many passages difference you from them and for all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them namely drawing such consequences and conclusions and going so farre as they I have often vindicated you but yet for all that you cannot justly free your selves from the odious name of Brownisme in most of the fundamentall principles and practises of your Churches no not with all your Artifices and specious pretences As the Brownists growing up and out of the Anabaptists did refine and qualifie Anabaptisine in many things in government prophecying c. So have you refined and qualified Brownisme from the grossenesse and rigidnesse of it as it was held by the first Fathers and Authours of it as I could show in many particulars you doe not goe so farre as they neither are you against some practises of other Churches upon those high termes but yet for substance from the first stone to the last in departing from our Assemblies and constituting new you agree with them as by a paralell betweene the way of your Communion and the Separatists lately printed doth appeare And in a word it is evident thus You agree with the way of New-England as is confest by some of yourselves and we may judge so by your high praise of them Now the Churches of New-England agree with them of M. Robinsons Church who are moderate and qualified Brownists Now that the Church-way of New-England is the same with them of M. Robinsons Church is proved thus The Church at New-Plymouth was the first companie that planted in those parts who comming from Leiden where they were members of M. Robinsons Church a moderate Brownist in his latter time practised the Church-opinions and wayes they formerly had in Holland and when they of New-England went over first through their conversing with them and nearenesse of scituation they tooke up and learned their way as appeares by these particulars First M. W. an eminent man of the Church of New-Plymouth told W. R. that the rest of the Churches of New-England at first came to them of Plymouth to crave their direction in Church-courses and made them their patterne Secondly M. Cotton in a letter to M. Skelton one of the first Ministers that went over thither writes thus to him in way of answer to this Position that M. Skelton held That our Congregations in England are none of them particular Reformed Churches but M. Lathrops and such as his This errour requires rather a Booke then a letter to answer it you went hence of another judgement and I am afraid your change hath sprung from New-Plymouth men whom though I much esteeme as godly loving Christians yet their grounds which for this Tenet they received from M. Robinson doe not satisfie me Thirdly There is great commendations given to the Church of Plymouth by M. Cotton after comming to New-England in his letter to M. Williams pag. 13. Fourthly All the Ministers and Elders of New-England doe affirme that all the Churches in New-England viz. in the Bay in the jurisdiction of Plymouth and at Connetâ—…acute are one and the same way in Church constitution government and discipline without any materiall difference Now what can be said more plaine Adde to all these that I had it from the mouth of a
godly Minister of the City conferring with one of your precious Ministers about these points before he went into Holland and telling him This is Brownisme and Browne held thus what are you a Brownist Your companion and fellow-labourer answered him thus The way was of God but the man was nought namely Browne As for those words whereby you would evade the naine of Brownisme That upon the very first declaring your judgements in the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church discipline and likewise since it hath been acknowledged you differ much from them 'T is not your saying so will cleare you unlesse you had named what that chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church-discipline is and how and in what words you declared your judgements and to whom for you might so expresse your selves as you doe in this Apologie too often whereby you might deceive the most of them to whom you declared your judgements yea many able Ministers and Scholars who are not versed in your distinctions and reservations and yet for all the declaring of your judgements differ very little from the Brownists except in different phrases and in not deducing such consequences Let me intreate you therefore to lie no longer hid under such generals but in your Reply declare particularly what you hold the chiefe point of all Church-discipline and wherein in that you differ from them But may I guesse at the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church-government and discipline wherein you declared your judgements by which you would distinguish your selves from the Brownists Is it not that you give the power and authoritie to the officers and not to the people onely I have heard that of late you have declared your selves thus and the late Epistle before M. Cottons booke written by two of you implies so much But be it so though I can out of a letter of M. Bridges and from notes and manuscripts show that seven yeares agoe the expressions of some of you were otherwise yet this will not free yoâ—… for M. Iohnson fell to this and yet was guiltie of Brownisme for all that But in this also your principles and your practises are incoherent and however in fine words and flattering similitudes you dilate upon it in your Epistle to M. Cottons late booke yet it comes much to one the substance of which Epistle I will answer in my Rejoynder to your Reply or in some thing by it selfe and will wipe off the paint and guilt and then the naked counter and rotten post will appeare As for your publick profession that you beleeve the truth to lie and consist in a middle way betwixt Brownisme and that which is the contention of these times the Authoritative Presbyteriall Government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it I answer then Actum est de Presbyterio de Synodo You have determined the cause alreadie the Assembly may rise when they please and need sit no longer for the truth lies and consists in Independencie but I suppose though heretofore and when you wrote this Apologie you did so publickly prefesso and beleeve the truth to lie in your way the middle way as you terme it yet by what hath past since your height and courage is somewhat abated and you are not now so peremptory and I find now you write in another stile which becomes you much better We humbly suppose we humbly conceive again in all humilitie But if you be high still I must tell you your confidence hath deceived you and your middle way as you fancie it though I must still charge upon you refined Brownisme will prove like other pretended truthes lying in middle wayes just as the Catholicke and Arminian moderatours Cassander the booke called Interim and that booke of late times cal'd media via betweene the Papists and Protestants and betweene the Calvinists and Arminians And as for the way of your expression of Presbyteriall government I cannot but except at it observing that all along obliquely and as farre as you may you still asperse that You can here expresse Brownisme simply without any additions to it but you cannot passe by Presbyteriall government without a lash at it which is the contention of these times as if you would insinuate the blame of all the contentions and stirre of these times to be Presbyteriall Government whereas the truth is the contention of these times is Episcopall and your Independent Government which have caused and doe continue all the contention and stirres in Church and Common-wealth they mutually strengthning each other against Presbyteriall government and â—…o 't is still to be observed that all along in this Apologie where you speake of Presbyteriall Government you state the questions about that in the highest and utmost latitude but of your owne Church and way in the lowest yea lower then you hold as for instance in 11 12. pag. about the qualification of Church-members to deceive the Reader with your pretended moderation and the more to possesse the Reader against the jus divinum of the Presbyteriall way as for example in this place Authoritative Presbyteriall government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it Now the substance and summe of Presbyteriall governement may be according to Apostolicall Primitive patternes and yet all the subordinations and proceedings of it as it is practised in the Church of Scotland fitted to that Nation and Kingdome may have no Scripture examples Presbyteriall government in some Reformed Churches as at Geneva hath not all the subordinations and proceedings as Scotland being no Kingdome nor Nation and Presbyteriall government in England might have one subordination more then Scotland and some different proceedings in the manner and forme of carrying matters according to particular circumstances and occasions of time and place The Ministers of the Church of Scotland who hold their Church Government to be laid downe in the word of God for the substance and essentials of it doe not as I suppose hold that all the subordinations and proceedings as practised in their kingdome have a particular rule either of precept or example I doubt not but they well understand no whole Nation was converted to the faith in the time that the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles were written nor the supreame Magistrate in any Kingdome or Nation and therefore in no one Church or Nation where Christians were converted and Churches planted there could not be that formall combination into Classes setled Synods or generall Assemblies neither could the supreame Magistrate or a Commissioner for him be a prime member in their chiefe Assemblies and so I might instance in other particulars but the Church of Scotland find Presbyteriall Government in subordinations and appeales that is Government exercised in Churches and Assemblies which consisted of more members then could meet in one place and they find Assemblies where upon cases of difference there were more members and officers then of one Church as the Acts of the Apostles showes fully
and doe pursue the designe of increasing your partie and spreading your way as the onely way of God else why have you preached and done so much for it neither can I beleeve you are so low spirited and so terrene as to look out after no other inrerest but a poore subsistance in this Kingdome what have you not the designe and interest of setting up Christs Kingdome and pure Ordinances in the midst of us I professe for my selfe and brethren that we have greater interests and designes in our seeking Reformation then a subsistance in our owne land though it might be never so full and plentifull namely the glory of God the advancement of the Kingdome of Christ the opportunities of doing more service And as for a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest I appeale to the Conscience of the Reader whether that be likely have you contented your selves with a poore and mean condition hitherto have you lived in a poore rank preaching in poore and meane Congregations or have you not ruffled it bearing a higher saile and carrying a greater port then most of the Godly Ministers in Citie or Countrey have not some of you the prime Lectures of the Citie and other good places of advantage and profit besides what some of you have from your owne Churches could not you have been contented to have added more places and can any who know you in what height you live and what Grandees of the times you are and how much you appeare in publike in the chiefe places of resort and have insinuated into so many great men beleeve that you would live contented with a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest let them beleeve you who will for my part I am not satisfied in the truth of it but doe suspect that if the Parliament should make an offer to you to this purpose you would refuse it You say you pursue no other Interest or designe but a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest in your owne land well you five shall have your Church-way and enjoy Congregations in such a remote corner of the Kingdome provided you shall not have above fiftie pounds a yeare nor above fiftie persons to each Church you shall adde none from any other Congregations of the Kingdome nor admit any of other Congregations to come to heare you nor never preach in any of our Churches any of your Church-Principles nor speake of them in private to any but your owne members would this satisfie you in your Reply give a positive and cleare answer As for that you say where we have and may doe further service I answer before you fell into this new Church way you did God service but since you have done more dis-service then ever service and if God be pleased to bring you backe into the fellowship of this Church and to joyne in this Reformation to grow up into one body you may doe him further service otherwise in the way of a Toleration which you aime at you will doe more hurt then you can doe good in this Kingdom yea though you had the tongues and parts of Angels As for those words a subsistance in the land which is our birth-right as we are men and the enjoyment of the Ordinances of Christ our portion as we are Christians I answer a subsistance in the land according to the Lawes established is your birth-right but not otherwise besides the deniall of a Toleration of your Churches doth not deny you a subsistance in the land but you may subsist if you please though no Toleration But supposing you may not have what you please if thereupon you will remove to other Kingdomes that is your fault and not the States when a Father or Master lets their children and servants have what is good and fitting but denies to let them doe what they list and refuses to grant what would hurt them if the children and servants will goe away and put themselves upon inconveniences to have their mindes and wils else-where it is not the parents and masters fault but the children and servants if men will punish themselves with Exile because they cannot have their wils they can blame none but themselves And as for the enjoyment of the Ordinances of Christ which you say are your portion as you are Christians then they are your portion not as Church members but as Christians and why then doe you keep away many good Christians from them for want of being Church members after your way but let me tell you though the ordinances of Christ be the portion of Christians yet not in what way and dresse so ever they will have them for so the Papists may plead to enjoy them in their way and the Anabaptists in their way but they are the portion of Christians so as to enjoy them according to the word of God in the publike Assemblies and not in a schismaticall way and so may you enjoy among us publike ordinances in the publike Assemblies but to forsake the publike Assemblies and draw away others with you and to set up a wall of separation between you and the reformed Churches this is not your portion as you are Christians but it is against Christianity and is your sinne and schisme As for that allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse you need not doubt that so farre as will stand with peaceablenesse that is so as not to urge subscriptions upon you to all the points of government and order not to cast you out from preaching amongst us though you may be of a different judgement in some lesser matters especially so long as you keep your judgements to your selves and preach not contrary to what is established to make factions and parties But if you meane by the allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences that you and others may have free leave to set up separated Congregations and goe and receive in to your Churches whom you please and governe Independently in a different forme of government from the government established I must tell you this ought not to be granted as being inconsistent with peace and truth and would be a perpetuall root and source of many bitter divisions errours and mischiefes in this Kingdome As for your last words of all not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to sot your seet on earth that seemes strange to me doe none of the English Ministers who live in other parts of the world as in Holland New-England and other places enjoy safety health and livelihood are these things confined and tied only to England did not most of you enjoy all these abroad livelihood is confessed in your Apologie a full and liberall maintenance annually safety you went over for and found and as for health some of your way have commended Arnheim you lived at to be like Hartford and Bury in Suffolke and one of you Roterdam to be as good if not better then London which places for health
matters of difference in the Assembly whereby it might be brought to an Uniformitie you endeavour by this Apologie a Toleration and sue for an exemption of Conjunction and Uniformitie in Church Government which is strange you should desire especially having coveâ—…anted to the contrary which breach of covenant is aggravated also that you do not onely do it your selves but you labour to bring the Houses into it by moving them to grant you a Toleration Now if a simple and single untruth need repentance what repentâ—…nce ought there to be for such a compounded aggravated evill as yours â—…s And as I have represented it to your own consciences that you may smite upon the thigh so I turne you over to your Churches whereof you are Ministers that they deale with you for your great sin and either bring you to Conâ—…ion and Repentance or else proceed to censure did I know where your Churches dwelt and where they meet I might then come and complain to them of your great sin but in stead of comming I send them this Answer and hereby give them notice and 〈◊〉 ready to satisfie any that shall desire further proofe and in stead of declaring by letters the offence I doe by printing declare it and require of the Churches especially Mr Sympsons Church as they will not be guilty of suffering known sinne in the Church as they would not suffer sinne to lye upon a brother and as they would vindicate the glory and honour of Christ that they call Mr Sympson to an account and admonish him and bring him to publike repentance for his publike sin or else upon impenitencie and obstinacie that they cast him out of the Church and I beleeve the sin he is charged with will fall under the subject of that dreadfull sentence according to what sins your selves judge that sentence is to be put in execution for Apol. pag. 9. But if Mr Sympsons Church neglect and will not question this sin then I desire the rest of the Churches of that Communion to send to the Churches of the Apologists and to charge them with their countenancing of sin and if the Churches will still beare and wink at sin and continue impenitent that then the rest of the Churches namely Mr Lockiers Mr Carters Dr Holmes c. doe pronounce the heavy sentence of Non-communion against the Apologists Churches and further to dèclare and protest this with the causes thereof to all other Churches of Christ that they may doe the like to send also to New-England and give notice to all the Churches of the Separation that they may Non-communion the Apologists Churches But if the particular Churches of the Apologists and all the Churches of their owne Communion will all hold to favour sin neither question the Apologists nor their Churches then we shall have a cleare instance of the partialitie of those Churches and of their allowing of sin among themselves and of the insuâ—…ticiencie of those Remedies of Submission Non-Communion Declaration and Protestation FINIS * Calv. epist. 65. Melanct. Verum si in nobis omnibus esset is animus qul esse debet aliquod forsan remedium posset inveniti Et certè foedum exemplum transmiâ—…imus ad posterot c. August Vincentio Epist. 48. Nunc vero etiam si tibi nihil profit non puto nihil ijs profuturam qui eam legere cum Deitimore sine personarum acceptione curaverint a Beza Epist. 1. And 1. Duditio Dominus te totamque familiam ob omni malo ac praesertim a Daemoniss meridianis istie obambulantibus custodiat * Mat. 1. v. 18 19. Acts 7. from v. 2. to v. 57. Acts 22. v. 1. to v 2â—… Acts cap 24. Acts cap. 26. a Justin. Mart. 2. Apolog. pro Christianis Tertul. Apol. Athenag Apol. vel legatio pro Christianis Athanas. Apol. Arnobij Apol. Eulog Apologâ—…t Sanctorum Martyr b Zuinglij Apol qua ad crimina respondet Apologet. contra Episcop Constant. Bucer Apolog. contra Brentium Dannaei Apolog. pro Helvet Ecclesijs Apolog Dan. pro adoratione Melancthonis Apol. August consess Apolog. pro Luthero Gualtb Apol pro Zuinglio Beza Apolog. Jevelli Apolog. Eccl. Anglicanae Mort. Apol. Cathol c Scâ—…venfeld Apol. contra Fabium Apol ad Regeâ—… Hung. de mediatione Stancari Apolog. Vorstij Theses Apolog. Exeg Apol. Oratio Apolog. Bertij Apolog. Apolog. Remonstrantium Apolog. Schast Francae D. P. Dirick Pâ—…ps Apol Apolog. Episcop Francisc. de S tâ— Cl. d Apologie of the Brownists Robins Apolog. Justif. of Separat e Apolog. for Ch. Cove Apol. Reply Davenport * Page 4. 11 19 12 24. Apolog. Apolog. M S. to A. S. cap. 5. pag. 83. Apolog. Dissert de Guber Eccl. pag. 620. Quinam bujuâ—… criminis rei judicentur me quidem latet neque in qirere ad nos attinet Hoc scio noâ—… convenire in eos qui intra sententiae nostrae terminos se continent Apolog. To his loving friends Mr Henry King Mr Tost Mr Smith Mr Raner Mr Mapp Apolog. Apol. Iusta necessaria per Joh. Robins cap. 6. De conjugio per pastores Ecclesiae celebrato Reformat of Ch. Govern in Scotland pag. 4 5 18 19. Reformat of Ch. Govern in Scotland pag. 10. Reformat of Ch. Govern pag. 18. 'T is laid for a common ground by the Divines in all the â—…eformed Churches that where a whole Nation is converted to the Christian faith every particular Church is not to be left to it selfe as if it were alone in a Nation but that Christ hath provided a way and there is a necessity of a common Nationall government to preserve all the Churchâ—… in unitie and peace Apolog. Page 9. Meâ—…ch Adam vita Whitak pag. 177. Mr Raâ—…b Narration of Ch. courses p. 1. The rest of the Churches in New-England came at first to them in Plimouth to crave their direction in Ch. courses and made them their patterne Apolog. Letter Mr Cottons letter examined and answered pag. 44. Mr Cotton himselfe and other most eminent Ministers in Nâ—…w-England had freely confessed that notwithstanding their former profession of Ministerie in old England yet in New-England till they received a particular calling from a particular Church that they were but private Christians Apolog. Robin p. 10 11. c. 12. de Eccl. Angl. * Robins Apol. cap. 12. p 78. Propria inquâ—… peculiaria in quibus verbi auditionem simpliciter noâ—… annumero â—…pote inqua non intercedit inter docentem discentem communio spiritualiâ—… sive Eccl. sive personalis nisi ex unione prae via Ecclesiastica aut personall Robins Catechis Quest. May all the faithfull partake in the Sacraments Ans. No except they be also added to some particular Congregation Apolog. Letter out of Holland De Ecclesijs reformatis quid aliud dicam eas pro veris genuinis c. Ecclesijs bahemus cum eisdem in sacris Dei communionem prositemur quantum in nobis est colimus conciones publicas ab illarum pastoribus habitas ex