of your proofe touching visible Churches for they haue not onely internall communion with Christ but externall also in the order which hee hath set For which wee stand and for the want of which alone wee withdrawe our selues as wee doe in this case not daring to breake Christs order for mens disorder Reason 2 The summe of the second Argument is That because it is lawfull for some such as are not yet members of a true Church to pray therefore others of a Church may ioyne with them in prayer I doe first answer That men in a Church are bound to and from many things wherein men not in the Church may vse more libertie and vppon the same ground you might more soundly argue thus Because two or three persons excommunicated vppon false testimonie may pray together and therefore the brethren of the Church may forthwith pray with them Though prayer bee in it selfe a lawfull thing and they holie in theyr persons that perfourme it yet it is vnlawfully perfourmed out of the Church in which men ought to bee and therein to vse it So that although there bee neyther Vitium personae nec vitium rei Yet is there Vitium ordinis relationis and this externall religious order and relation is the Church-order and religious communion a worke doth presuppose religious vnion of persons Reason 3 Touching men ioyning in prayer before they enter couenant and so before they be in a Church whence you doe take your third Argument I doe answere First for that there is not the like reason of them and vs which are or take our selues to bee in the order of an established Church They then breake no order though wee should Secondly such persons are ioyned in will and purpose at the least the which is accepted as the deed 2. Corinth chap. 8. verse 12. though the outward ceremonie bee not as yet performed So is Abraham said to haue offered vp Isaack Hebrewes chapter 11. verse 17. and Priscilla and Aquila to haue laied downe their owne neckes for Paules life Rom. chapter 15. vers 3 4. Which notwithstanding they did onely in will and purpose Your axiom à velle ad esse non sequitur ratio hath his vse especially in rebus naturalibus But the vrging of it thus absolutely in matters of religion tends to depriue the Church of her greatest spirituall comfort Lastly consider the couenant in concrete and prayer is a part thereof And when men are so met with a purpose to vnite and do beginne prayer for the sanctification of it They are in the doore comming into the house and not without The Iewes were not to haue religious communion with persons vncircumcised and yet I doubt not but when a godlie Proselite was to be circumcised they might lawfully ioyne with him for the sanctification of the Ordinaunce I cease further to trouble you and doe heartily salute you in the Lord God wishing you from him all prosperitie and in him resting Leyden this second of the weeke Your louing friend IOHN ROBINSON SIr I did maruell indeed at your silence when an answer was promised do no lesse maruell at this your answer that being so deliberate it is no more sound and pertinent As for the state of the question it was set downe in your owne wordes thus in the thesis Whether there be visible communion out of a visible Church not to bee denyed or dissembled in this your answere as it is more than once when you would draw it to an hypothesis In the answer to the first Argument your denial is very strange the reasons of it as weake The Scripture doth euery where reason from that communion which we haue with Christ to that which we ought to haue one with another Our best Diuines doe put one in the definition of the other Sanctorum communio est actus officium singulorum membrorum inter se ez vnione formali cum Christo spiritu ipsius profluens the sence is acknowledged by all good writers The words are taken from reuerend Iunius The same sentence is elsewhere by him expressed so fitly for you if you doe not despise it that I hope it may something preuaile with you Ex illa autem societate saith hee communione quam Sancti cum Christo habent omnino sequitur altera haec consociatio atque communio qua membra inter se consociata coagmentata sunt nam idem qui nos adunauit sibi eo ipso quod diuersa membra adunat sibi eadem inter se adunauit quae cum it a sint facile Christianus quilibet nobis assensurus est si imperturbato animo ad haec legenda expendenda venerit non posse quenquam Christianum bona fide renunciare communioni alterius quem Christus aut adâ—unxit sibi aut se adiuncturum spem facit The place note well worth your serious reading Reason shewes the same truth For are you more holy than Christ that you should beate him from your communion whome Christ hath made a member of his body doth not our internall communion one with an other flow from that internall communion we haue with Christ Whence then doth our externall flow but from that externall which wee haue with him or which is the same from visible discerning of that internall Your instances of Angells and Saints departed doe make directly against you for we doe not visibly and particularly discerne of them and their communion with Christ but in extraordinarie cases and at such times we may haue sensible communion with them When the heauenly company did celebrate the birth of our Sauiour saying Glorie bee to God on high c. I hope you will not say it had beene sinne for the Sheepheards to say Amen to it nor for the Disciples to haue giuen the like assent to any worship perfourmed by those which came out of their graues at the resurrection of Christ Your other instance of an innocent excommunicate hath no force at all for your selfe doe not say that it is not simply vnlawfull to haue any communion with him at all but onely for some time nor that co nomine because he is out of the Church but for order sake Now I do not speake of such a necessitie as bindeth semper ad semper neyther am I against the confederacie of circumstances but consider it simply scandall and contempt remoued it is lawfull to communicate with such a one As for that consequence of yours If one part of communion then to all It doth better serue the Anabaptist to exclude children from Baptisme than you to exclude Christians from priuate communion because you will not admit them to some part of the publique He that can spie schisme in admitting to one part before then to all might farre more easily see the same in excluding visible Christians from all if he were not some way blinded For is it not a monstrous breach of charitie to afford no more communion to
a true Christian than to a Turke Your reason which you giue of hauing communion with visible Churches because they haue externall communion with Christ in the order which hee hath set doeth not infringe but confirme my proofe for whence hath that order this force of drawing anie to communion because that is a signe of inward true communion Wheresoeuer then there is euident discerning of inward there outward is lawfull I am not ignorant of some circumstantiall expediences which tie those that liue in well ordered Assemblies more than other men but to omit that the question is generall not onely of such There is nothing simply vnlawfull to one in the nature of it at least to giue assent to that is lawfull for an other neyther can there bee any instance giuen of an action lawfull in one to performe which is vnlawfull for anie other to assent vnto That of excommunication I answered before Your first answere to the third Argument is besides the question which in your owne words is generall of any besides it is a very strange order that is broken by saying Amen to a godly mans prayer the Scripture knoweth no such I am sure In the second you mistake that reason from the will to the deed For howsoeuer before God in spirituall actions it so holdeth yet before men especially in priuiledges belonging to any outward societie it nothing auaileth to make profession of such a desire But if it doth as you say then doth it great wrong vnto all good Christians in denying them communion who professe they desire to ioyne in all the ordinances of God so farre as they can discerne them So whereas you say that such as intend a couenant are in the doore I hope all conuerted Christians are at the least in the doore of the true Church or if you make the doore so narrow I nothing doubt but ye may goe into the Porch and Court of the Lords house to take a godly man by the hand These things considered I am halfe perswaded that you will confesse your selfe to haue sinned in separating those whome God hath ioyned together in communion That is all visible Saints which God of his mercie graunt Your true friend William Ames CHAP. IX To the right Reuerend master Francis Iohnson our Pastor with the other Elders his Assistants Our ouerseers grace and peace be multiplied SEeing beloued that we are fallen into perillous daies some faining vnto themselues one religion and some another and because the right way is a strait way euery one whose way is strait doth thinke that they haue that right way And considering the many sorts of the separation at this day cursing or reiecting one another others thinking but basely one of another as to begin with our selues whom master Ainsworth and his followers hath left and reiected as false Christians master Robinson holding but key-cold brother-hood with vs and master Ainsworth and he and we iarring about ruling Elders those in Suffolke holding it vnlawfull to eat blood and to flie as we haue heard Iohn Wilkinson and his disciples will haue Apostles Thomas Leamar will haue no Churches with other his wicked differences The heresie of one Thomas Lemar described by master Padget with this title The Monster of Lemarisme THis Monster was set forth with seuen heads 1 Mahometisme in that Lemar denied the holy Trinitie and the eternall God-head of Christ 2 Iudaisme in affirming that Christ should come shortly in his owne person to raigne heere vpon earth 3 Papisme in holding that a meere creature is to bee worshipped 4 Lutheranisme in maintaining the doctrine of Consubstantiation 5 Anabaptisme in affirming that Christ tooke not his flesh of the virgin Marie 6 Libertinisme in holding that there is no visible Church now on earth 7 Brownisme in holding the doctrine of their separation Master Smith an Anabaptist of one sort and master Helwise of another and master Busher of another Iohn Hancock wil haue a separation by himselfe The ground of master Neuils errors was also separation though now hee bee further runne backward then euer he was forward to speake nothing of Pedder Henrie Martin with the rest of those Anabaptists These are motiues forwarding our meditations this way together with our mortalitie and the iustice of God punishing sin so that we dare not deferre to make knowne our repentance vnto you for the space of an houre longer we might note the hand of God against vs in our estates a iust punishment for sin by the law of God The thing then is this whereas some yeares since our minds were much affected and troubled with the horride estate of the Churches of our natiue countrey and whilest wee were thus musing many wayes and reading such bookes as came to our hands amongst other we light vpon some booke of this cause laying open more corruptions in all estates and that with more simplicitie and plainenesse as we thought so still the way was prepared vnto Separation and we pricked forward as with spurres and goads But then insisting further that the Church of England was a false Church and that knowne sin not purged out doth defile the whole Church as leauen doth the lumpe and we perceiuing so much sowre dowe we needed no eloquent Rhetoritian to perswade vs vnto separatiō For had those two things been true and a iealous eye and heart making them his obiect it would not make them go but run to separation and to be as the Hee-goats before the flocke so haue wee done vntill of late and perswaded as many to follow vs as we could if they looke or hope for saluation the Lord pardon vs for it But seeing that the discouerie of the Churches of England to bee false Churches is now by our selues discouered to be but a fiction we cannot perceiue but that our Separation in that behalfe is at an end for the cause being remoued the effects must needs vanish and so in those two respects it repenteth vs that we haue separated And sithence that repentance cannot be knowne to be sincere except it be shewed forth by action or speech or both therefore by this writing we do make it knowne by voice by our actions we shall make it knowne as God shall minister iust occasion Thus Reuerend and well beloued in treathing you to reade this vnto the Church or to deliuer the whole substance of it by speech that they may take knowledge of it lest we be blamed of many hereafter that we did not make our minds knowne vnto them we cease praying the Lord to shew vs all mercie to go with a steedie foot in the truth Amen The eighth of Iuly 1611. new stile By two of your feeble flocke fearefull any longer to go astray MAT. SAVNDERS CVTH HVTTEN CHAP. X. The testimonie of W. Simson against the Prophets in master Ainsworths Church BEloued and reuerend in the Lord the consideration of our estate doth so disquiet my conscience and trouble my mind that indeed
I can haue no resolution of peace in my thoughts thereabout The first maine cause of this griefe is our reiecting communion with all the reformed Churches on earth and all true Christians in the same euen those whom our selues do account true Churches we do yet forsake and separate from their communion this practise can haue no warrant frō Gods word And for the reproofe of our seueritie in this euill course consider how you called master Abram to repentance for ioyning to the Dutch Church of London and how neuer a word was spoken of those great scandals he fell into before vpon which he departed and left the Church Secondly as wee despise all other worship in true Churches so our own maner of exercise on the Lords day is with such confusion and contradicting one another so that euen our owne profession of separation is indeed quite ouerthrowne thereby for example Thomas Cocky in his prophesie witnessing against England saith their ministerie is Antichristian and being so they can beget no true faith and no true faith can haue no true saluation and so consequently in the Church of England is taught no saluation a fearefull sentence in my iudgement Againe our beloued master de Cluse in his doctrine of prophesie laboured to proue separation from a true Church for any corruption obstinately flood in this doctrine was by another in prophesying then shewed to be absolutely contrary to that place of Reu. 2.24 which how vnsoundly it was concluded by our Teacher was then obserued by many Also it was since by another deliuered in the way of prophesie that euen amongst our selues did raigne many sins as namely fulnesse of bread pride and idlenesse fulnesse of bread in that many were not satisfied with neither spirituall nor temporall food pride in that many did striue to go aboue their calling idlenesse in that many were negligent in their calling If these things be so and be not redressed by the admonition of this prophesie wee must according to master de Cluse his doctrine make a new separation how oft do the Brethren except one against another for their doctrine whereby much heart-burning and strife is kindled betwixt them These things being well considered I entreate you well to mind whether this new way of prophesying on the Lords day can bee for the edification of the Church or not CHAP. XI Of the dissension betweene Iohn Iohnson the father and Francis the sonne and betwixt the brothers George and Francis IN the writings and dealings of George Iohnson there appeares more simplicitie plainnesse then in Francis whose politique shifts and courses are as the way of an Eagle in the ayre now such courses are much to be suspected whereas commonly plaine dealing and honest dealing are as louing companions that go hand in hand together To omit manifold instances of this crooked and vncertaine dealing of Francis Iohnson let this one authentique testimony thereof giuen both by the French and Dutch Ministers deputed of their Presbiteries to be considered indifferently Narrauit nobis Ioannes Iansonius Anglus se hominem septuagenarium ex Anglia in hanc vrbem difficili itinere venisse vt duos filios suos Franciscum Georgium Iansonios dissidentes quorum ille pastorem agit coetus Anglici qui degit apud nos hi◠ab eodem coetu excommunicatus est in gratiam reduceret quumque hoc negotium reconciliationis ageret incidisse se in controuersiam cum filio suo Francisco senioribus totoque caetu cui praeest ille cui componendae commodius remedium inuenire non potuisse dixit quam si se ad Belgicam Gallicam Ecclesias quae in hac vrbe sunt consilij auxilijque causâ conferret Quâ causâ petijt à nobis vt ipsi consilio ope nostra adesse vellemus summittens controuersiam totam iudicio arbitrario duarum praedictarum Ecclesiarum Nos vero honesti senis petitioni id concedendum putauimus vt à Francisco nonnullis senioribus coetus Anglicani supra dicti peteremus an etiam parati essent eandem controuersiam arbitrario earundem Ecclesiarum aut synedriorum vtriusque iudicio summittere cui quaestioni licet multis id conati sumus responsum Categoricum obtinere ab illis nequiuimus Quod cum videremus existimauimus nos nihil porro apud illos in hoc negotio effecturos Cuius rei testimonium petenti Ioanni Iansonio denegare noluimus Actum Amstelredami inter deputatos synedrij Ecclesiae vtriusque Belgicae Gallicae octauo Nouembris anni millesimi sexcentesimi secundi stilo nouo Ioannes à Vinea in Ecclesia Gallobelgica Minister Euangelij Petrus Plancius administer Euangelij Iacobus Arminius administer Euangelij in Ecclesia Belgica Simon Goulartius administer verbi in Ecclesia Gallobelgica Francis Iohnson excommunicateth his father and brother 1 TO curse any man rashly and vniustly is sinne but to curse parents is more vile 2 But in M. Iohnson the pure Separatist father of the Frāciscan order for him to curse his own father is yet more vile 3 When hee did this and drew his whole company to consent and approue thereof it was the more vile for poysoning others with his sin 4 This curse being not a common reproch or euil speech but the heauie curse of excommunication in giuing his father to the diuell is not this more fearefull 5 This censure giuen out vpon so sleight a cause yea so vniust a cause while the father sought peace betwixt his children was it not the more horrible for the son so to entertaine the father a stranger so to condemne him for contention that passed the seas only to make peace 6 This done so violently and cruelly that no aduice counsell no nor threats of the Dutch Church might restraine or stay the rage of Saint Francis 7 This done against such a father as had bin at so great cost in bringing vp his son to learning he to vse his Sophistrie euen against his Father how vile 8 Thus to iudge and condemne his father who also with so much labor cost and griefe had sued to sundry Iudges and nobles in England for releasing of that son as may appear by the generall copies of those humble petitions and supplications which Iohn Iohnson made for his sons Francis and George vnto the high Commissioners and to others Furthermore in that M. Iohnson did thus proceed to excōmunicat his father after he had before cōdemned his brother George this also doth aggrauate his offence for the reiection of his brother first might something haue softened his heart and the conscience thereof might haue staied him from greater crueltie towards his father Lastly in that M. Francis did continue persist obstinatly vnto the death of his father without reuocation of his error or recōciliation to his father sending his father downe to the graue with this curse vpon his backe rolling the stone of his censure vpon the graues mouth sealing it vp with his cōsent as it
THE PROPHANE SCHISME OF THE BROWNISTS OR SEPARATISTS WITH THE JMPIETIE DISSENSIONS LEVVD AND ABHOMINABLE Vices of that impure Sect. Discouered by CHRISTOPHER LAVVNE IOHN FOVVLER CLEMENT SANDERS ROBERT BVLVVARD Lately returned from the Companie of M. IOHNSON that wicked Brother into the bosome of the Church of ENGLAND their true Mother PSAL. 83.16 Fill their faces with shame that they may seeke thy name O Lord. ROM 16.17 Now I beseech yee brethren marke them diligently which cause diuision and offences contrarie to the doctrine which ye haue learned and auoid them M. D.C.XII THE PREFACE VNTO THE CHRISTIAN READER TOVCHING THE causes and the maner of our publishing this Treatise HE that hideth his sins shall not prosper but hee that confesseth and forsaketh them shall haue mercie Prou. 28.13 Our sin of separation whereby we haue reiected the communion of all true Churches being now made manifest vnto vs vpon such occasion as is hereafter declared in this Treatise and we desiring to receiue mercie from the Father of mercies haue therefore resolued and thought in our selues according to the counsell of the holy Ghost that we will not hide our iniquitie but confesse against our selues our wickednes vnto the Lord that the punishmeÌ„t of our sin may be forgiuen vs. Our owne ignorance and the deceit fulnes of others had drawne vs into the depth of this error and in the middest of this deepe Schisme when the Lord might iustly haue iudged and rebuked vs in wrath euen then were wee bold to iudge and condemne others that were better than our selues and farre excelling vs in all the gifts and graces of Gods Spirit wee condemned them and slandered our whole nation as a false Church false Christians a Synagogue of Satan and a people according to their publike profession in a damnable estate we exempted none neither the learnedest and godliest Ministers nor zealousest people but condemned all and auoided all in the seruice of God And therefore to publish our repentance for this scandalous Separation we hold it in the first place a iust and necessarie cause for the publishing of this Treatise He that is first in his owne cause is iust then commeth his neighbour and maketh enquirie of him Prou. 18.17 Master Iohnson and his confederates being parties accused by vs and being iudges also in their owne cause haue first condemned vs with their censure when we complained of their sinne they could find no way to cleare themselues but by accusing vs so that when wee renounced their Schisme they denounced their curse against vs and thus declared vs to be their enemies when wee told them the truth In this case the holy Ghost alloweth vs to make apologie for our selues in enquiring into and refuting those slanders which they lay vpon vs and make the ground of their sentence against vs. They haue condemned vs first in their owne Church Wee do now in the second place by a publike appeale bring the matter before the Churches of Christ to iudge thereof This is also another cause of our writing at this time When thou art conuerted strengthen thy brethren Luke 22.32 Being our selues deliuered from this snare of the Separation our desire is to stretch out a hand of helpe and comfort vnto those that yet lie in that ditch and wee are not without hope of some fruit of our endeuours this way but especially our hope is to stay and strengthen some weake Christians that are inclining and looking that way whom we admonish and desire them in the Lord that they would bee warned by our harmes and by our going astray to walke the more circumspectly in the middest of all offences and scandals wherewith they shall meete As for those that are alreadie separate and caught in the briars of that Schisme although we do assure our selues vpon good ground that sundrie of them do wish they had neuer met with the Separation and would also much reioyce if they were well quit and freed from the same yea and haue wished some of them that there might be a dissolution of their schismaticall bodie that so they might escape without excommunication yet are they in the meane time kept vnder in such bondage by the terror tyrannie subtiltie of their guides which they shew both in their doctrine and in their gouernment that they dare not easily whisper or muffe against the separatioÌ„ As for those whose feet are almost gone their steps wel neere slipt we desire theÌ„ to pause a while it is not so easie a matter to come out of that snare when they are fallen therein as it is to keepe out at first for the stay of such we haue thought it needfull to publish this Treatise for their further information touching the estate of Brownisme as also to warne all such as haue bin the occasion of those Heresies and Schismes to conforme themselues to the Church of God that these Caterpillers may no more rise out of them And although we be vnlearned men which haue composed this booke yet we hope it will not be disked therefore seeing we speake of nothing but which our owne knowledge and experience hath taught vs and the admonition may take better place because that the most which are taken in the net of Brownisme are men of our condition ¶ A Table of the principall matters contained in this Treatise The first Section Chapter 1. A Declaration of our procedings with Master Iohnson and the Elders in publique in their Meeting-house Folio 1 Chap. 2. A copie of Christopher Lawnes excommunication with an answer thereunto fol. 6 Chap. 3. A copie of Iohn Foâ—…er his excommunication with an answer thereunto fol. 12 The second Section Chapter 1. A True relation of the Schisme Dissensions Blasphemies Heresies and horrible crimes practised by the Brownists or Separators fol. 15 Chap. 2. The testimony of father Tolwine against theyr iniustice schisme and slaunder fol. 18 Chap. 3. The copie of Robert Bulwards suspension and excommunication with an answer thereunto fol. 20 Chap. 4. A relation of Studley his wickednesse translated out of the Dutch fol. 22 Chap. 5. A discouerie of some of the abhominations of the Brownists in Amsterdam fol. 26 Chap. 6. A comparison betweene two notable Separatists Daniel Sâ—…dley and Richard Mansfield fol. 32 Chap 7. The testimony of William Gilgate one of Maister Ainsâ—orth his company and one that had beene Minister in England fol. 41 Chap. 8. Letters that passed betwixt Maister Ames and Maister Robinson touching the bitternesse of the Separation fol. 47 Chap. 9. A relation of the heresie of Thomas Lemar fol. 55 Chap. 10. The testimonie of William Simpson against the Prophets in Maister Amsworth his Church fol. 58 Chap. 11. Of the dissension betweene Iohn Iohnson the father and Francis the sonne and betwixt the brothers George and Francis fol. 59 Chap. 12. A taste of their detestable slaunders and reproches concerning the Church of England fol. 66 Chap. 13. Concerning their mutuall reproches dissensions
to cut off my selfe from that their schisme wherein I haue stood with them And though I cannot but expect much reproach and many hard sentences which they of the Separation will for this cause passe vpon me yet my hope is that the Lord which of his mercie hath giuen mee leaue to see my error and his truth will now also strengthen me by his grace to beare the euill speeches which in this case they vse to poure out vpon those that leaue them Surely I am readie to halt and my sorrow is euer before me When I declare my paine and am sorrie for my sinne Then mine enemies are aliue and are mightie and they that hate me wrongfully are many They also that reward euill for good are mine aduersaries because I follow goodnesse Forsake me not O Lord be not thou farre from me my God Hast thee to helpe me O my Lord my saluation WILL. GILGATE About a moneth or six weekes after this when by the mercie of God he was something recouered of his sicknesse he then by his practise confirmed further that which he had written before both by embracing the communion of the Churches which he refused before in hearing the Word and praying with them c. As also by going vnto M. Ainsworths Church with which he had ioyned himselfe before and there openly in the middest of their Congregation renounced his fellowship with them testifying that they were in Schisme and for further proofe hereof did afterwards giue vnto Master Ainsworth diuers Arguments in writing to proue them to be in manifold Schisme and so finally left them quite CHAP. VIII Letters that passed betwixt M. Ames and M. Robinson touching the bitternesse of the Separation ONe point of Schisme which M. Gilgate obiected vnto M. Ainsworth was for their separation in priuate from those particular persons which might be discerned to be true visible Christians euen by their owne confession This point because it is further discussed in diuers Arguments and Writings betwixt Master Ames and Master Robinson wee haue thought it meet to publish them as they came vnto our hands because they serue much for the declaration and manifestation of their Schisme herein G. M. and P. SIr I doe not desire to multiplie many Letters noâ— many words in this one Letter I will passe by therefore your censure Your manner of separation also I omit whether it be like or dislike to that of the first reformed Churches for you haue yrons ynow in the fire about that question Neither will I trouble you about my associates here whom you deeme euill of though they be vnknowne vnto you Onely that one point which containeth indeed the very bitternesse of Separation I would desire you againe to consider of as you doe me viz. Whether there be not a visible Communion euen out of a visible Church These reasons seeme to euince it 1 Whomsoeuer I can rightly discerne to haue communion with Iesus Christ with him may I haue visible communion the reason is because that from visible descrying of that inward communion doth necessarily follow externall communion Neither can other sufficient reason be giuen why we should communicate with visible Churches but only because wee visibly discerne that they haue communion with Christ Now quatenus ipsum de omni conuertuntur But we may discerne euen by your confession of some out of a visible Church that they haue communion with Christ Ergo 2 That which is lawfull for them to doe which are no members of a visible Church that is lawfull for others to ioyne with them in for that which is no sinne in the principall is none in the accessorie Cateris paribus And it cannot be simply vnlawfull to ioyne in any action that is lawfull Quatenus talis but it is lawfull for Christians conuerted euen before they ioyne in any Church perhaps wanting knowledge of the true Constitution perhaps oportunitie to worship God Therefore 3 It is necessarie that before the couenant making which you hold to be the forme of a Church they that are to make it should ioyne together in prayer for direction assistance and blessing yet they are not a Church vntill after Therefore it is not only lawfull but necessarie also that there be a communion out of a visible Church You may easily conceiue the forme and force of this Argument If you answere that they are a Church in desire that is to forsake your position for desire to be doth imply that as yet they are not A velle ad esse non sequitur ratio I will not be further tedious vnto you Fare you well Feb. 25. Your louing friend WILLIAM AMES Mercie and peace be with you Amen SIr because I doe vnderstand by many that you maruell I answer not your reasons hauing had your writing so long in mine hands I thought good to returne you a briefe answere Your reasons to prooue visible communion out of a visible Church follow Though that be not the question betweene you and mee But whether we which are or deeme our selues to be of a visible Church may lawfully communicate with such as be of no Church Reason 1 I deny that externall communion doth necessarily flowe from the discerning of inward communion with Christ which is your first reason for then I haue externall communion with the Angells and faithfull departed this life Externall communion is a matter of externall relation and order vnder which men out of the Church are not Acts 2.41,47 The order set by Christ and his Apostles is that such as receiue the word and are to be saued ioyne themselues foorthwith vnto the Church and a large remnant it is of the confusions which Antichrist hath brought into the worlde that men fearing God should remaine out of the true Church For the further cleering of these things If an innocent person in mine absence be excommunicated from the Church vpon the testimony of two or three yet will I for order sake and so am bound forbeare communion with him till I haue manifested his innocencie to the Church On the other side Though I know some great wickednesse by a brother which he denies and I can not prooue I must still for order sake keepe communion with him in the Church till God discouer him It is euident therfore that in cases I am both to forbeare communion with a godly man till we be orderly ioyned together and to keep communion with a wicked man till we be orderly dis-ioyned Adde vnto these things that vpon this ground I may also lawfully admit one out of the Church to the Lords Supper to the choise of Officers censuring of offendors And all other exercises of externall communion if by the iudgement of Charitie I deeme him holie in his person And how can I denie him one part of externall communion to whom I affoord an other but I make a schisme in the communion of Saints and this also may serue for answere to the latter part