Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

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christian_n	church_n	communion_n	society_n	2,512	5	9.2730	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A74992	An ansvver to Mr. J.G. his XL. queries, touching the lawfulness, or unlawfulness of holding church-communion, between such who have been baptized after their beleeving, and others who have not otherwise been baptized, then in their infancie. As likewise touching infant, and after baptism. In which answer, the undueness of such mixt communion is declared, the unlawfulness of infant-baptism, and the necessity of after baptism is asserted. By W.A.	Allen, William, d. 1686.	1653 (1653)	Wing A1054A; Thomason E713_17; ESTC R207237	74,298	97

Church-members into Church-fellowship without baptism to be a reason unto us likewise to steer the ●ame course unlesse we will say those Gospell rules by which ●hey ordered themselves in those times were binding only to Christians of the first ag● of the Gospell but not to us now ●nd if so then farewell all Go●p●●● Obligations for if we may ●ake liberty to cast away one Law of Gospell Order and Worship then why not two and so three and in the end all ●o which indeed these l●sser beginnings do truly tend and I would to God it might be more considered and laid to heart Querist How can this ever be proved that there were no believers unbaptized in the Apostles daies Respon I know none that does affirm any such thing as that a be●ever was not at any time while he was a believer unbaptized ●ny doubtlesse men were believ●rs first and then were bapti●ed after they began to believe But if the Querist intends ●hus how will it be proved that no believer in Church-fel●owsh●p was unbaptiz d Th●n the answer is that it is proved by those and the like Scriptures lately quoted where it s said in ●ffect that all of all ●orts ●●●ks and d●gr●●s that were of the ●ody were baptized into that body and if ●ll were of the body by it then none were without it Querist Be it granted that th●re w●●● no believ●●● 〈…〉 the Apostles daies upon what ground n●●w●●● 〈…〉 practise ●ow queri●● be justified 〈◊〉 maintained 〈…〉 certainly know and can satisfie themselves 〈…〉 had been such believers in these times 〈…〉 unbaptized or un●●●● baptized ●y those ●●ly 〈…〉 have declined s●ch communion with them as that spe●●●●● Respon Believers now are doub●●● no 〈…〉 believers were then I do not mean 〈…〉 nu●●●● and if so then the same ground that did satisfi●●ap●●z●● believer then in not joyning in Church fellowship 〈…〉 unbaptized though they di● be●●eve 〈…〉 for they did believe before they were baptized and yet were not admitted into Church communion till after baptized as was proved above will serve to satisfie baptized believers now touching the lawfulnesse of the same practise which is the will and appointment of Jesus Christ that so it should be for in that we find such a thing practised with approbation of the Apostles we may well conclude it to proc●●d from their directions and instructions and consequently from the Lord himself as we are taught to infer 1 Cor. 14.37 II. Query Whether can it be pro●ed from the Scriptures or by any argument like to s●tisfie the conscience of any tender and consider●ng Christian that the Apostles or other Christians in their daies would have d●clined Church communion with such persons whom they judged true believers in Christ only because they had not been baptized after a profession of their believing Respon It does not only appear that the Apostles and other Christians would have declined church-Church-communion with believers because not baptized but it appears they did do it for it sufficiently appeares that men and women did believe before they were baptized Act. 2.41 8.12.37.38 18 8. with many other places And I hope it is proved to satisfaction in my answer to the first Query that believers were not admitted to Church fellowship then till after baptized their believing notwithstanding if so what is a not admitting lesse then a refusing to admit them to such communion The reason why the Querist seems to conceive that the Apostles and other Christians would not have declined church-Church-communion with believers only for their want of baptisme runs thus Querist Considering that the Apostle Paul expresly saith That in Jesus Christ i. e. under the Gospel or profession of Jesus Christ in the world neither circumcisi●n ava●●eth any thing not uncircumcision but saith which worketh by love Gal. 5.6 And again That circumcision is nothing nor uncircumcision is nothing but the ke●ping of the Commandements of God 1 Cor. 7.19 meaning that under the Gospel neither did the observation of any externall Rite or Ceremony Circumcision by a Syneedothe Specie being but for all kind of externall Rites or ceremonies avail or contribute any thing towards the commending of any person unto God nor yet the want of any such observation discommend any man unto God or prejudice his acceptation with him but that which was all in all unto men and which availed any thing in and under the Gospel that which being found in men rendred them accepted and approved of God and the want of it disapproved was such a kind of faith not such or such a kind of ceremony or such or such a kind of baptism which by the mediation or intervening of that heavenly affection of love uttereth and expresseth it selfe in keeping the Commandements of God Respon 1. What does the Querist mean when he says that under the Gospell the observation of any externall rite or ceremony avails a man nothing towards the commending of him to God nor does the want of it prejudice his accep●ation with him does he mean that it does not avail him in any sense as one would suppose that were minded to take him in the worst sense since his assertion is indefinite but surely this is not his meaning since this would render the Ordinances of the Gospell Baptisme and the Supper unprofitable and vaine and things but of like indifferency as were those meats of which the Apostle saith That if a man eat of them neither is he the better or if he eat not neither is he the worse 1 Cor. 8.8 But I presume rather that he meanes that they availe not comparatively or els in the businesse of justification our what then will it follow that because these externall rites baptism and the like do not avail unto mens Justification when they are observed that therefore they are not necessary unto Church-communion for did the externall Rite of Circumcision under the Law which is the thing by which the Querist calculates the validity of baptism under the Gospell availe any more to justification th●n baptism does now and yet how irrelative soever it was to justification yet it was so necessary as to Church-communion as that Church-communion wa● not to be had w●●hout it Gen. 17.4 Exod. 12.48 if so then how can the Querist estimate the usefulnesse and disusefulnesse of baptism as to Church-communion by Circumcision as he does and not conclude it necessary to Church-communion as well as Circumcision was But I demand how the Apostles or other Christians in their times would have known or have been able upon good ground to have concluded that such persons had truly believed in Christ unto justification and had been meet to be admitted to communion with them who should if any such had been have refused to obey Christ in submitting to baptism whereby they were to make proof that they did believe in him in good earnest Sure I am that a refusing of Johns baptism was taken for a declared rejecting the counsell

Such whose ground on which they stand is truth though they ought with all sweetness love and meekness to invite and perswade others to come over to them yet may by no means depart thence or remove their standing no though it were to gain others to them 1 Cor. 9.21 To them that are without Law as without Law being not without Law to God but under the Law to Christ that I might gain them that are without Law Ier. 15.19 Let them return to thee but return not thou unto them Phil. 3.15 16. If in any thing ye be otherwise minded God shal reveal even this unto you Nevertheless whereto we have already attained let us walk by the same rule let us minde the same thing 6. Though endless Genealogies and striving ●bout the Law and the eating of meats and hearbs are but such things and the truth concerning them but of that nature as that for the sake thereof peace must not be broken Tit. 3.9 1 Tim. 1.4 Rom. 14. yet first such points or questions as concern the fulfilling of any righteousness of which those that concern the essentials of Baptism are Mat. 3.15 are such as of which the Kingdom of God does consist and in the defence of which men serve Iesus Christ and are accepted with God and ought to be approved of men Rō 14.17 18. Secondly not onely Gospel Doctrines about matters of faith but also matters of Gospel order such as the Apostle cals Ordinances appointmen●s or traditions 1 Cor. 11.2 even these are truths to be contended for and not to be let go for peace sake And the Apostle thought this a sufficient answer to such as should contend against these viz. that they had no such custome neither the Churches of God ver 16. with ver 2 3 4 5. c. And if the Churches of God then had no such custom nei●her as to sprinkle or Baptise little children or to admit members to Church-communion without Baptism does not the Apostles saying here though produced upon another occasion evince their contention sinful and unreasonable likewise that shal plead for and practise such things as these contrary to the custom of the first Churches which in all laudable things were patterns to al succeeding Churches The Apostle having in 2 Thes 2. given notice of the Mystery of iniquity it● b●gining then to work ver 7. and the coming of the man of sin with all deceiveableness of unrighteousness ver 10. which we know in the Papal Apostacy hath fallen out as wel in matters of Gospel order as in points of faith he to prevent a defection in both exhorts them ver 15. to stand fast and to hold the Traditions which they had been taught yea and in chap. 3. v. 6. counts that a disorderly walking which was not after the Tradition which they had received from the Apostles And if it were the wisdom and duty of the Churches then to stand fast and to hold fast the Traditions which they had received from the Apostles as wel touching matters of Gospel Order as otherwise to prevent their falling into anti-Anti-christian pollutions then doubtless the way for men now to recover themselves and others from under those pollutions is by returning back to these Apostolical traditions and standing fast in them which doubtless is their duty what disturbance soever may follow thereupon ERRATA PAge 9. l. 15. r. those particular cases p. 25. l. 21. r. neither p. 44. l. 13 r. a p. 49. l. 25. r. supposing p. 52. l. 1 r. formally ib. l. 4. r. is p. 55. l. 16. r. such as have p. 55 l. 24. r. the time of his Baptism p. 57. l. 25. r. and p. 58. l. 24. r. of 59. l. 4. r. describe p. 59. l. 32. r. those p. 60. l. 6 r. words p. 61. l. 16. r. line p. 61. l. 26. r. of p. 61. l. 28. r. when p. 63. l. 3. r. 2 p. 64. l. 14. r. unreasonable p. 66. l. 1. r. much ib. l. 2. r. bapti ib. l. 14. r. meet p. 69. l. 26. r. about p. 72. l. 12. r. charging p. 72. l. 19. r. those p. 72. l. 19. r. practiseth An Answer to Mr. I. G. his XL. Queries touching Church-Communion between such as have been Baptised after they have Beleeved and others who have not otherwise been Baptised then in their Jnfancie As likewise touching Infant and after Baptism THe thoughts of the Worthy Author of the Book Intituled Philadelphia touching the subject matter of that Book being propounded Queri●-wise there is I suppose li●tle Question to be made but that it was with an expectation on his part to receive a return from the hand of some friend or other in order to a further Discovery of Truth in that particular Case of Conscience about which the Queries are imployed And therefore rather then ●he desire of this worthy friend should in this behalf be kept too long fasting I have resolved having first waited a while for some more able hand to have undertaken it through the assistance of God to offer my mite towards this service to which I adress my self as follows Querie I. Whether is there any Precept or example in the Gospel of any Baptized Person his disclaiming of Communion in Church-fellowship with those whom he Judges true Beleevers upon account onely of their not having been Baptized Respondant As for matter of Example for such a practise there is I suppose none in Scripture no more then there is of disclaiming communion with the Church of Rome as now it is or with the the Parochial Churches in England or elsewhere and yet it wil not follow that the one is any more unlawful then the other For Scripture examples are matters of Fact and therefore there having been no such corrupt practise crept into the world till after all the books of the holy Scriptures were finished as is the constituting of Churches without Baptism or upon Infant sprinkling in stead of Baptism which in true construction is not onely no Baptism at all but even worse then none as much as to commit an evil action is worse then to omit a good one there being I say no such corruption as this then on foot no more then there was the now Romish the National or Parochial Church-constitution then in being there could be no occasion for any truely Baptized person to disclaim communion either with the one or with the other and consequently no such matter of Fact to be Recorded of which to make an example But then it no more follows that it is unlawful to refuse communion with the one Church then it is with the other if there be no more ground in Scripture to constitute Churches without Baptism then there is for the Romish National and Parochial constitution The Querist then having himself disclaimed communion with the Church of Rome and the Parochiall Churches in England though he have no example in scripture so to do and yet hath done it because there is no example

audaciousnes in any man once to imagine If so then what is more plain then that the Commission of Christ to them was to teach and baptise first and to admit into Church fellowship thereupon and not otherwise as is visible in that prime example of theirs Acts 2.41.42 Then they that gladly received his Word were Baptized and the same day there was added unto them about three thousand souls And they continued stedfastly in the Apostles Doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in Prayers Where you see they were first taught by Preaching secondly did gladly receive the Word by which they were taught thirdly were baptized fourthly were added unto them viz. the Church ver 47. fifthly continued stedfastly in the Apstles Doctrine and fellowship c. Addition to the Church then and fellowship in it did follow baptism and not go before it according to the actuated commission of Christ Jesus And why should any servants of his then desire to vary from it unless they presume themselves wiser then he and hope to finde a greater good in their own way then in his 3. Baptism must needs precede the enjoyment of Church priviledge in Church fellowship in the Apostles dayes because it was then as it ought still to be a means of planting men into Christ or into the body of Christ the Church Hence they were said to be Baptized into Christ Galathians 3. vers 27. and to be baptized into his death Romans 6. v. 3. and to be planted together into the likeness of his death upon that accompt ver 5. of the same chapter And what does a planting and a planting together import but the first puting together of Christians in order to their growing together in Christ and yet all this is done by Baptism And may you not therefore as well suppose trees to grow together before they are planted together as to suppose Christians to grow together before they are planted together and yet planted together they are by Baptism not into this or that particular Church but into that one Church of Christ which is distributed into severall parts and particular Societies Hereupon it is that Baptism is called one of the Principles or begining Doctrines of Christ and likewise part of the Foundation Heb. 6.1 2. And what house stands without its Principles or is built without a foundation Nay the Apostle 1 Cor. 12 13. doth plainly declare Baptism to be of so constant and universall a use as to the inchurching of persons of all sorts ranks and degrees that were incorporated at all in his time as that none came into the Church but through this door For he sayes they were all Baptized into one body i. e. Church body whether Jew● or Gentils bond or free And if any man can name any persons that were neither Jews nor Gentiles neither Bond nor Free then I will confess those possibly might be brought into the Church without Baptism But otherwise though they were Jews and had been formerly entred in their Church by circumcision yet when they became of the Gospel Church it was not without Baptism Or if Gentles a people sometimes a far off yet by Baptism upon their beleeving were brought into capacity of the same enjoyments with the Jews If free as Masters yet not admited without Baptism if bound as servants yet made equally capable of the same Church priviledges by Baptism For so he sayes again Gal. 3.27 28. As many of you as have been Baptized into Christ have put on Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentle bond nor free male nor female for ye are all one in Christ Jesus i. e. all having thus put on Christ are become all one in him Some indeed seem somewhat to doubt whether the Apostle speaks of water Baptism when he sayes That by one Spirit we are all Baptised into one body or whether he does not rather speak of the Baptism of the Spirit without water Though these indeed are the doubtfull thoughs of some contrary to the generally received opinion of men upon the place yet I must do my honored Querist that right as to quit him from fellowship in that opinion and to acknowledge that he not long since in a discourse upon the same words did teach the Auditory to understand by being Baptized by one Spirit into one Body and by being made to drink into one Spirit as is exprest in the latter part of the verse that the Communion which Beleevers have with the holy Spirit in the two Ordinances Baptism and the Supper of the Lord is intended by the Apostle and this he did without doubt to me according to the truth For what else can be intended by drinking into one Spirit but the Saints communion in Spirit in and by the Supper drinking by a Synecdoche being put both for eating and drinking If so why should we not as wel understand the fi●st Ordinance Baptism in its proper sence for water Baptism in the former part as the latter Ordinance the Supper in its proper sence in the latter part of the verse Neither can we reasonably unde●stand the same thing to be intended by being Baptised by one Spirit and by drinking into one Spirit which yet we must do if a being indued with the Spirit were all that is here meant for they are said to be Baptized into one body but to drink into one Spirit and surely Baptizing and drinking here are no more the same then the Body and the Spirit are the same into which they are said respectively to be Baptized and to drink But cleerly the Apostle seems hereby to intend to minde these Corinthians how that by means of the same spirit working upon all their hearts they became members of the same body through Baptism and that being of the Body they came to have communion in Spirit or with the Spirit in the supper And that which will yet further serve to evince that it is not a Baptism with the spirit but a Baptism with water that is here meant is this because the spirit is here set forth by the Apostle as the Agent or working cause and Baptism as the effect and it is ridiculous to make both cause and effect the same thing It is true indeed the scripture doth speak of a being Baptized with the spirit but when ever it does so it still declares either Jesus Christ or God the Father as the Agent Baptizing with the spirit but never as making the spirit both the subject matter wherewith and also the Agent whereby men are Baptized in the same Baptism See for this Mat. 3.11 Mark 1.8 Luke 3.16 Act. 1.4 5. with Luke 24.49 Acts 11.16 The premises therefore considered I hope it will sufficiently appear and that to the satisfaction of any indifferent man that in the primitive times none were admited to Church-communion without Baptism and if so have we in these dayes reason to do any other wise Ought not that which was a reason to them not to admit

it since we read of very foule evills in some of the primitive Churches themselves but doe not finde the sound party exhorted to separate from the corrupt but to proceed against them in a Church-way for their cure by admonition conviction and excommunication in case of obstinacy XVIII Querie answered What is said to the next precedent Querie will be a full and pertinent answer to this and therefore shall say no more to it XIX Querie answered To this I say that whatever else a company of true Believers have done yet if they have not done that which is necessary upon Scripture-account to render themselves a true Church according to Gospel order then it is not unreasonable for a Christian to deny them to be such a Church But yet for all that it does not follow that such a denyall renders them but as a rabble rout of the world because unbaptised Believers are a third thing neither prpoerly of the rabble rout of the world nor yet formerly of the Church as a man that having served an apprenticesh●p and is not yet made free of the Company of which his Master is neither servant nor freeman in the interim but have so far left the world as that they want nothing but an orderly induction to be of the Church Nor can it be concluded that because such have diligently enquired after the minde of God and have sought direction from him hereabout that therefore the way they are in must needes be right any more then that those that practise contrary to them in this particular upon like diligent search and seeking of God must needs upon that account not be in the wrong for they cannot both be in the right and yet both search and seek for the rule remains the same and will not bow at any mans intreaty and that 's it by which the one and the other must be tryed XX. Querie answered To this I answer 1. I have already said and now say it againe that a man may not depart from much lesse bid defiance to a Church because that Church cannot say Amen to every notion or conceit of his Nay I will say more he may not though that Church does not agree with every sober and savory apprehension of his supposing them still to be a Church duly so called from their due constitution 2. Though there is no example in Scripture of any mans being baptised after the profession of his faith who had been baptised before in his infancy because when the Scriptures were written there was no such thing as the baptizing of Infants practised by which to give opportunity of such an example yet if Infant-Baptisme cannot be proved to be that Baptisme which Christ requires his Disciples to submit to and consequently is none of his Baptisme but the Baptisme of Man then Infant-Baptisme and no Baptisme are of one and the same consideration and if so then there is example and precept enough in Scripture for such Believers to be once baptised who never have been baptised before and therefore the case is not so plain as the Querist supposes that there is no precept or example which warranteth the practise of the Children of after-Baptisme as he calls them But the Querist hath given himself an Answer to this Querie by the matter of his 7. and 8. Queries to which I referre him for further resolution in this XXI Querie answered Answer 1. If by Christians the Querist meanes no more then true Believers in Christ Jesus then I know none that so magnifie the Ceremony or externall Rite of Baptisme as to judge none Christians without it nay the truth is it is because we judge the Querist and others true Believers that we do perswade them to be baptised But if by Christians he meanes such as according to the Word have put on Christ then we must say that those that by being baptised into Christ have not put on Christ are not yet such Christians as they ought to be Gal. 3.27 And yet it does not follow that they who so say do stumble at the same stone of danger and perill of soul at which the Jews stumbled if they were Jews when they urged and pr●ctised circumcision as necessary for justification Gal. 5.2 because they urged and practised that for necessary which was now abolished we that which is commanded and remaines in force we urge Baptisme to be necessary as a precept of Christ and necessary as a means of salvation they perhaps judged Circumc●sion as other works of the Law meritorious according to the Querists owne declared judg-ment upon another occasion And therefore I doubt the Querist does not deale so kindely with the Ordinance of Baptisme nor the Baptists themselves as he should doe in that he puts the one but much what in the same capacity with Circumcision as it was at that time when Paul said of it If ye be circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing and in that he yokes the Baptists who onely urge Baptisme as one of the precepts of Christ and a meanes of salvation as the Scriptures themselv●s doe with those that urged the abrogated Ceremony of Circum●●sion as necessary unto Justification as the Querist himselfe supposes Truly I doubt the comparison in both respects is odious with God whatever it is with Men. XXII Querie answered That which will be very well worth our noting here in the first place is how the truth which we plead hath gained a faire and ample acknowledgement even from the Querist himselfe in this Querie though he oppose it in others For he does not only demand whether there be any precept or example in Scripture for the baptising of any person after many yeares profession of the Gospell but also whether there be any precept or example in Scripture for the baptising of any person at any other time SAVE AT OR ABOUT their first entrance upon a profession of Christ And not onely so neither but farther demands Whether there be any competent ground either in Reason or Religion why either such a thing should have beene practised by Christians in the Apostles dayes or why it ought to be practised by any in these dayes By which I am sure he sayes as much to the condemnation of Infant-Baptisme as lightly can be spoken in so few words and in substance as much as ever any man did say in opposition to that practise For if there be neither precept nor example in Scripture for the baptising of any person at any other time SAVE at or about the time of their first entrance upon the profession of Christ nor yet competent ground in Reason or Religion why it should otherwise be practised then certainly there is neither precept or example in Scripture for the baptising of Infants nor yet any competent ground why such a thing should be practised and the reason is because Infants in their infancy can make no profession of Christ nor doe they in their infancy make any entrance upon a