well that doe it For if the Temple made with hands defiled through idolatrie was odious unto God how much more will he loth our Spirituall Temples not made with hands if we suffer them to be polluted with filthy superstition But so absolutely we shall doe if we doe the thing which the Treat here contends for A good man saith Ambrose m Lib 5. Epist 30. will be earnest and Zealous against idolatry Another saith n Bradshavv on 2 Thes 2 p. 130. The better a man is the more carefull will he be to withdraw himselfe from it These witnesses are true Fourthly there are some to be found so sowred with modines and discontentment Treat as they become unsociable If they see nothing lamentable they are ready to lament If they reade any Bookes they are onely invectives specially against publicke Saâ—es and Governours Ansvv 1. As to be unsociable is inhumaine and brutish so to be carelesse with whome we joyne in communion is sinfull and vicious A traviler were better goe alone then have one in his company that should rob him and cut his throat 2. This is not an age which wants cause of just lamentation considering not onely the evils without but what perverse things are brought into the Churches of God whereby poore people are dayly deceived 3. That we should looke into publicke States and Governours there is reason for it and specially if the same be Ecclesiasticall for else how can we walke as men of knowledge and hold fast onely that which is good Lastly Treat some thinke to cover their owne both grosser and more proper and personall corruptions under a furious march not onely against the faylings but the persons also failing of infirmity in matter of Church-order and Ordinances Ansvv I suppose by Church-ordinances and Order he meanes the Ministerie Worship and Government under Antichrist Now that some of ignorance submit to these things there is nothing more certaine notwithstanding this gives not allowance to others others knowing better to doe so too If there failing be of infirmity there is the more hope of their reformation I meane when they shall heare the truth taught and see the Teachers walke closely in it In conclusion the Treat pleas the Rhetorician and makes a shew as if he could say more but he will spare his opposites Ansvv As for his minsing figure of extenuation to let much passe I like it not For he doth here no otherwise then if a Theese when he hath stript a man out of all that he hath would faine yet be counted mercifull in that he doth not murder him or bind him as some others have done Let any indifferent man read his writing and he will say the Treat hath not spared his opposites but short at them arrowes of bitter words and made them as odious and vile as a man can doe But blessed is he that is not offended at the truth for such things SECT 2. THE Objections undertaken to be answered by the Treatiser are as he layes them downe of two sorts Some of them are framed upon supposition that the Ministers in that Church are in themselves Lawfull and of God But yet not to be heard by reason of the abuses evils to be found in their administrations Others with-draw herein and those the more upon the contrarie supposition to wit that the very order and constitution of that Church and Ministery is papall and unlawfull Ansvv For the first I have nothing to say to it It beeing a point beside our present dispute Againe for my part I am of his minde in the thing that is to use his owne expression Supposing a Church and the Ministerie thereof essentially lawfull it cannot but be lawfull for the members of other Churches in generall union and association with it to communicate therewith in things lawfull and lawfully done seeing the end of union is communion God hath in vaine united persons and states together But he who would have us receave the weake in faith whom God hath receaved would not have us refuse the fallowship of Churches in that which is good for any weaknes in them of one sort or other And this we have so plainly and plentifully commended unto us both by the Prophets yea by Christ himselfe in the Iewish Church and Apostles and Apostolicall men in the first Christian Churches In which many errours and evils of all kindes were more then manifest and the same ofttimes both so farre spread and deeply rooted as the reforming of them was rather to be wished then hoped for as that no place is left for doubting in that case by any who desire to follow their holy steps in faith towards God and charitie towards men and effectuall desire of their owne edification What he here writes is surely true for the Scriptures approve not of rending away from true Churches for any corruption I use the word any because so long as we acknowledge the Church to be true whatsoever her sinnes are a separation from all communion with it is utterly unlawfull Our godly Predicessours had in them the zeale of God and love of his truth * Two things I would know of these meÌ„ 1. Whether they thinke not that the primitive Christians were as zealous and sincere as themselves 2. Whether they thinke not that the Churches from vvhome they separate have as fevv if not fevver corruptions then such Churches had in vvhich the Apostles and other godly people dayly communicated But how shewed they it Not by forsaking their Brethren for offences but in witnessing against them and seeking their reformation But now ah that I could not say it some men know not how their zeale like Iehues may be seene of men unlesse they make publick Schismes in Churches and this many times not for any sinne that they can justly prove the Church to be in but upon discontentment and because they cannot have their way and will But of this no more now For I purpose if God spare my life to set forth a Treatise touching this very point The Treatiser in pag. 23 Treat would have us consider distinctly of Religious actions according to the severall Rankes in which they may rightly orderly be sett And how we should conceive of them a little after he tels us thus Some such actions are Religious only as they are performed by Religious persons And of this sort is Hearing and so Reading of Gods Word The Scriptures teach and all confesse that Hearing of the Word of God goes before Faith for Faith comes by Hearing as by an outward meanes Hearing then beeing before Faith and Faith before all other acts of Religion inward or outward it must needs follow that Hearing is not simply or of it selfe a worke of Religion and so not of Religious Communion Answ That the Reader may the better perceive how greatly the Treat was deceived in this matter of Hearing as to thinke it not to be of Religious Communion
vnto by maister Robinson e Iustification of Separat pag 123 this thinge is absolutelie condemned We speakinge there of Antichristian Assemblies professe that the faythfull may not haue any spirituall coÌ„munion in their publick administrations And for proofe thereof these scriptures are alleaged f Reu 18. 3. 4. Hos 4. 14. 15. 1 Cor 10 14. 17 2 cro 6. 14. 15. Son 1. 6. 7. But sayth he in the same place this is no act of communion I answere our Christian predicessours so vnderstood it and so doe the faithfull generally to this day besides this new deuise wants as truth so common sence for it is as if one should affirme that he eates and drinkes but partaketh not in the things he useth g Hoccine credibile est aut memorabile Teren. And Act. 4. so 1 â— But it may be he thinkes the following lines will helpe him If hearing simplie were an act of communion then euery heretique or Atheist or whatsoeuer he were that should come into the church should haue communion which if it were true it were good that euery Church that will auoyd Communion with prophane men to meete in priuate and then shutt the doore when their own companie is mett together or else I cannot see * Nevv you may if you shutt â— et your eyes against the ligâ—â— a Regula 〈◊〉 est distinguere aliter omnia quae a so invicem Possum seperari how they can auoyd communion with wicked men Answ It is a certane rule as Logicians teach thinges are really to be distinguished which in themselues are to be separated each from other The ignorance of this distinction is a maine cause as I haue obserued of some mens erring in this point of hearing ffor they thinke as the Pistler here vnwiselie writes that if members of true Churches haue not communion with the vnbeleeuers which come vnto their meetings that then it will follow that they may be present in false Churches in time of publick exercise and yet haue no communion Melano l. 4. distinct Systemat theol 1. c 4 P. 58. To reply breifly for I purpose to speake more largely of this in an other place There is besides Church communion a communion in the ordinances of the Church as in the state it selfe ministerie worship Gouernment Howsoeuer therfore a man be no member actually of such or such a body And so in that respect to speake properly he hath no Church communion yet beeing there a worshipper he communicates in the actions don I say whether they are good or euill The christian Corinthians were separated formally from the Heathen-state and constituted in a true Church-state notwithstanding Paul sayth b 1 Cor. 10. that such among them as went vnto Idol Temples had there communion as how not Church communion but they communicated in the euils there practised They communicated as c Comment 1 Cor. 10. ver 18. pag. 640. Pareus layth with idols or as Ierome d on the same place phraseth it the participation of devils To be short according to Bezas e ciusdem cultus ac sacrificij sunt conscij siue in eodem sacri ficio consortes ac socij ac ejus quasivinculo in eadem religione copâ—â—lati interpretation they were guilty of the same seruise sacrifice or were companions and consorts therein and coupled themselues as it were in the same religion To apply this to our point in controuersie If an Heretick Atheist or whatsoeuer he be come to our Churches we acknowleidge he hath communion to weet in the ordinances how be it no Church communion that is no communion in or with the saints gathered into the faith and order of the Gospel so in gooing vnto vnlawfull Assemblies if a man be no member his communion there is not with the people in that state but in the humane inventions Beza Annoâ—â— in 1. Cor. 10. 1 pag. 137. that is the Idol Church wil-worship false ministerie and other such abominations And this common reason sheweth for he that is not a member of a Corporation may yet communicate in the administrations thereof howbeit true it is in or with the body he doth it not We need not therfore shut our doores against any person for there followes no daunger by their comming vnto vs â—for howsoeuer as I said they haue communion yet not with vs but rather in the thinges practised with vs. Now what can the Pistler hence conclude only thus vnlesse he be Graculus inter musas ‡ If I may doe a lawfull thinge then I may doe an vnlawfull thinge Jf a foreiner may pertake in the ciuil iustice of true magistrates then he may so doe in the sinfull administrations of Rebels and Traitors I wrong him not for his reasoning and this â— is all one in substance If it be lawfull to communicate in a true Church Omnia idem puluiâ— Lucian with Christs ministerie and worship then a man may lawfully communicate in a false Church with Antichrists ministerie and worship I could say more but I am loth to discouer his nakednes too farre But no maruaile when men leaue the way of truth if foolish and false thinges doe follow 2. But admit this hearing were not against any article of our Churches what is the note that the Reader must then obserue Surelie vnlesse the Epistoler would be noted for nonsence we must needs conceiue that he holds as the Papists f Bellarmâ—de c Rom. poâ—â— l. 4. 1. 4. Rhemist n Luk. 18. sect 4 doe to wit that the Church cannot erre and therefore we must beleeue as the Church beleeues But are you in good earnest wel we will so take it till we are better informed In the meane time take you notise what the Lord saith g Esa 8 20 To the Law and to the Testimony h Serm deâ—em 〈◊〉 if they speake not according to this word it is because there is no light in them Take notise also what Augustine k Iust mart cont tryphâ— sayth we ought to beleeue a Church but not in a Church because the Church is not God but the house of God To the like purpose others Neither Pastor Councell i B Bilson par 2. p. 266 or Angel ought in point of faith to be receiued I say not against but without or besides the scriptures These k are only safe l Hilar in psa 86. to be credited for humaine praâ—pts they want weight m Lactan l 3. c 17. they bind not n Id cont Faist l. 23. ego soli scripturae fido said Theodoret o Zâ—nch de Tripl Epis p 103. J giue trust to the scripture alone And some papists in words say no lesse as Thomas of Aquine p l 9 art vlt. Abbas q Deelect cap significasti pan◠〈…〉 Gerson r In locchi Pâ—pper Mechâ—inienâ— Picus Mirandula s Quaest â—an Pa suâ— con Occam t Dial. l. â— p. 1. c.
respect of fayth and doctrine If he grant this as needes he must vnlesse he haue their spirit whome the Apostle h 1 Pet. 2 10 termeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 prosumptuous and selfe-willed note then the consequence as his respects are foolish so the Church he pleads for hearing in is false in both his two respects The reason is because the Israelites when they worshipped at Dan and Bethel were not in respect of faith and doctrine to vse his termes more corrupt then the other now is And because he vndertakes nudo capite bare-faced and bouldlie to defend Antichrists cause we shall exspect in his next Pistle-making some thing from him which hitherto no man hath attempted that is to answere M r. Ainsworth i Iâ—roboamâ—â—â—pology in his Arrovv against idolatry and the non-conformists k Course of Conformity p. 161 162 who affirme that the Apostate Jewes could justifie their way and course of religion as well if not better then the other In short therefore if he can shew vs what essentiall truths his disordered Church retaineth or grosse errours reiecteth wherein we cannot manifest that the other went as farre For my part I will freelie confesse my errour in beeing a long time perswaded omnia similia that they are both alike one no better then the other 3. Are the Lords ordinances with the Pist only matter of order What is the Church of Christ his ministerie the right administrations of the Sacraments Censures no points of fayth oh fearefull saying Not only is there wrong here don to the scriptures but also to many worthy Christians For were this true they haue sunne in vaine their suffrings haue been invaine I meane our predicessors and others who haue suffered joyfullie the spoyling of their goods spilling of their blood c. I say for this which according to his writing is no point of faith and doctrine But we need not wonder that Gods house and his Ordinances are thus slighted of him doe not all adulterers after they haue sett their vncleane affections on strangers thinke meanlie of their own wiues disgrace them what they can so doe Idolaters c. Now I doe not know this gentleman excluded one man that hath affirmed that the whole outward worshipp of God to be no point of faith Cartwright speaking of this termes it the substance of the Gospel k T. C. l. 1 pag. 48 Pag. 26 And in the same answere to Whitgyfe he writes thus You say that in matters of faith and necessarie to saluation it holdeth which thinges you oppose afterwards and sett against matters of ceremonies orders discipline and Government as though matters of discipline and kind of government were not matters necessarie to saluation and of faith The case which you put whether the Bishop of Rome be head of the Church is a matter that concerneth the Government kind of Government of the Church aud the same is a matter that toucheth faith and that standeth vpon our saluation Excommunication and other censures of the Church which are fore-runners vnto excommunication are matters of discipline and the same are also of Faith and Saluation The sacraments of the Lord his Supper and of Baptisme are ceremonies and are matters of Faith and necessarie to salvation So Fenner l Difence of Eccles discipl pag. 33 certaine points of discipline are of necessitie to salvation in such absolute degree of necessitie as is of any ordinarie outward meanes Of which sore is the ministerie of the word and of the sacraments and of the censures of the Church Others of the Non-conformists I could alleidge which say the same as Parker m De pol. Eccles l. 1 c. 11 pa. 30 Traverse n Necessitie of discip p. 21. Vdal o Demonst discipl pref Baines p Dioces Trial. pa. 50. Bates q Pa. 60 Yea and Conformists too as Bilson r Perpet Govern ch 1 p. 3 Whitgyft s Treat 2 c. 1 divis 2. pa. 80 Sutclift t Câ—â—t Bez. c. 2 p. 32 Loe u Compl. of the Church p. 60 Adde to these Scultingius x Hierar Anacr l. 9. p. 1 the Papist Who cals Ecclesiasticall Politie the soule joynts and synews of the Church Besides howsoever the Pist puts out the whole externall worship of God from beeing points of faith yet the Reformed Churches in France y Art 25 and the Low cuntries z Art 30 doe put this in as an article of their faith To be short that which he cals order is in the Treatisers a Iustif separ p. 348 opinion absolutely necessarie to the Church an essentiall propertie And as D. Ames b De consc l. 4 c 24. p. 214 saith it cannot be a true Church that wants it For by this the parts and members thereof are knit together And this is true as in divinitie so in Philosophie For Forme according to Aristotle c 3 Phis 3 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the reason of the essence Another Euerie thing is senceable by matter and intelligible by forme d Averr in 1. de Calo. As thinges by the light are decerned so we vnderstand the matter by its forme e Boeth de vnit It is a knowne Tenent Forme guies to things being distinction and operation So Keckerman f Syst Theol. l. 1. c. 17. p. 161 Timpler g Metaph l. 3 c. 2. Prâ—bl 71 72. Câ—â—rlm h C. 6 pag. 35 Scallger i Ex. 6 S. 3. and others 4. Seeing he holds it vnlawfull to goe vnto any Church which is false in respect of order and doctrine it must needs follow that all Antichristian Assemblies are to be wholy left because they are false in both these respects And touching the Church of England here pleaded for what notorious errours and abuses she mainteaneth and practiseth may be seen in her Convocation-Canons visitations Articles the English masse booke their manner of making of Bishops Priests and Deacons To let passe the many scoores of heathenish Iewish and poopish superstitions which the Nonconformists * See Souldier of Barvvick Table haue in printed bookes branded her for And that the measure of her iniquitie Syons pleà may come to a speedie fulnes Admonitions to the Parliament Altar of Damascus and other of their bookes Let the Reader obserue the multitude of grosse errours which she hath added latelie to the former And these not onelie in printed bookes the high commission sermons in the court city vniversity cuntry averred but also allowed them by publick authority among sundry other Romish erronious positions these p Sec Chovvne Reeve Pocklinton Heylen B. VVhite B. Mountagùe Shelford Pâ—imerose Laurence Studly Coale from the Altar Bishcp VVren other Prelates their visitation Articles The Church of Rome is a true Church That she hath neuer erred in fundamentals no not in the worse times That personal succession of Bishops is requisite and essential to
great Nations have beene converted by men and women out of office As a great Nation of the Indians by Aedesius Frumentius The Country of Iberians by a captive woman And here by the way this may serve to his demaund Let them tell us where they have received their faith We answer the wind bloweth where it listoth Sure we are faith we had when we left our unsanctified standings there But if any should hence affirme that we had it by hearing false Ministers he should shew follie and rashnes Secret things a Deu. 29 29. belong to the Lord Quae supra nos nihil ad nos Augustine b Melius est dubitare de occultis quam litagare de incertis Lib 8 c. 5. de Trinit adviseth us well It is better to doubt of secret things then to strive for uncertainè things If the Pist had minded this I thinke he would not have written so peremptorie in a matter unknowne 4. Where reads he in Gods Booke that men are named visible saints and judged firt matter for Church estate they being in the mean while actually members of false Churches and practise dayly grosse idolatry I thinke with the Treatiser c Iustific Separ pag. 269. true visible Christians have Christ for their King visibly or in outward appearance so far forth as men can judge For by visible we mean that which may be seen of men opposed to invisible which only God seeth for Christ is not divided but looke to whom he is a Priest to save them and a Prophet to teach them to the same persons he is also a King to reigne over them That Christ then should be said to be a King unto any people continuing members of Antichrists Kingdome Or that such ought to be deemed visible saints and firt matter for a true Church which live under a false Ministerie Worship and Government For my part as yet I cannot see reason for it But thinke the word is against it * Rev. 14 45 Ephes 2 20. Deu. 33 3 Esa 4 34 Rom. 1 7. 1 Cor. 1 2 Philip. 1. 1 If a man should give up his name unto a Vsurper take his part obey his precepts joyne with him in rebellion and treason May he for all this be counted and that justly a visible good subject unto his King To me it is fide majus For his wordy and windy insultation That any man may blush for shame that shall deny this I passe it by wishing him hereafter to lay things downe according to allegata probata Let the Scripture speake d Sanctis Scripturis non loqueÌ„tibus quis loquitur Ambr. de vocat Gent. l 2 c. 3 Tom. 2. in the points between us For without it nothing is to be affirmed e Omne quod loquimur debemus affamare de Scripturis sanctis Hierom. in Ps 98 Tom. 8. and beyond it nothing to be concluded f Nihil ultra quam sacris literis proditum est definiendum Erasm in Hiliar Gods vvord alone is certaine other proofes uncertaine and false if they discent from it g Solum Dei verbum certum caetera falsa si dissentiaÌ„t Ferus in Epist ad Roma c. 3. p. 303. 5. Howsoever it is true as Polanus h Comment in Ezech. cap. 16 pag. 365. Deering i 23. Lecture on Epistle to the Hebr. Whitaker k Rom. Pont. Cont. 4 Quaest 5 pag. 681. and others say in a false Church by the preaching there some sometimes are brought to the faith yet with these I deny that this is an ordinarie worke but rather extraordinarie The reason is because their hearers generally by their Doctrines are kept in blindnes idolatry wilworship c. So that they fit not members to true Churches but unfit them rather For no sooner see they a man to set his face that way but they seeke immediately to keepe him from it nolens volens either by flatterie persecution or the like Lastly if there be any weaght of reason in his words they make then against himselfe and quite overthrow his owne cause And thus I prove it No man can lawfully heare false Ministers unlesse he know before hand that they have and doe ordinarily begit men to the faith But such fore-knowledge is not to be had Ergo c. The proposition is certaine by his owne grant For the maine ground whereon the whole weaght of his matter relyeth is this viz that some Antichristian Ministers ought to be heard because they have and doe ordinarily begit men to the Faith Now this must needs be understood of that which is visible for otherwise nâ—que Coelum neque terram attingit he speakes idly and from the point The Assumption cannot possiblie be denyed except men wil be senceles For who can say upon certaine knowledge that any false Minister in the world hath and doth ordinarily begit men to the faith Thus the man is snared in his owne words And may say with the Poet Heu patior telis vulnera facta meis Before I end this point I thinke iâ— good to present here unto the Readers view one observation or two from the Pist Argument 1. Howsoever he sayth but litle yet that which he sayth is so abstruse darke full of evasions and starting holes as a man cannot tell what to make of it He sends us to the effect of preaching But to what end is this What light What information can a man take hence considering that as God is the Authour of true faith so the time instruments meanes c. by which he exhibiteth it unto man is knowne only to himselfe and not to others of others Indeed here we may observe a cleare difference between truth falsehood Between Christs institutions and mans inventions Whatsoever God will have us to doe or not doe he layes downe the same openly precisely manifestly All the words l Pro. 8. 9. of his mouth are plaine unto him that understandeth The spirit speaketh expresly m 1. Tim. 4 1. Non obscurè in voluiè Sed manifestè praecriptè praecise sayth Guiliaâ—dus n Comment on good the place VVhereunto accordeth Augustine o Divinitus visuÌ„ est ut sacra Oracula simplici pershicuo exararentur dictionu â—enere ne praetendere quisquam possit nihil a se in illis intelligs Ad vonsianum It was thought good unto Almighty God that the Scriptures should be penned in a simple and plaine kind of speach least any man should pretend that he could understand nothing in them Another p Sam Bachiler Serm. Campe Royall p. 36. Gods Oracles are plaine and labour with no ambiguities like those of Pyrrhus and Croesus whereof no certaine meaning could be gathered That the truth is simple and plaine Ethnickes by the light of nature could sufficiently see into such things One of them touching this matter saith thus q Veritatis sermo est simplex apertus nec varijs
indiget explicationibus ambagibus sed iniusta causa cum per se sit morbida necessario indiget astutis pharmacis Euripid. The truth is simple and plaine and needeth is not variety of windlaces and feâ—chings of matter about the bush But an evill cause in that it is sick and deseased hath need to have a cunning plaster set unto it Another r Aristo of them hath these words That phrase and forme of speaking hath truth in it which is common and used of all having in it nothing craftily devised neither cloking some other thing then is professed Contrariwise when Satan speaketh by his instruments he speaketh so ambiguously and clokedly as fitly that of Apollos Oracle may be applied to it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * Quod ambiguis ambagibus respoÌ„sa consulentibus daret For one knowes not how to take it nor which way to apply it Pertinently to this purpose writes Sibelius s Desacrific Abra. p. 56 57. Humaine Doctrines are various and ambiguous wrapped and foalded with abstruse labrynths of opinions whereby peoples minds are so troubled and tyred that they cannot plainly open themselves neither have any quietnes or come to their desired end But the Doctrine of God is right that is plaine and perspicuous not wrapped with un-even and crooked suttleries and delusions of Sophistrie neither leads us into by-pathes and errours but bringeth peace to the conscience ad removeth à ll scruples and doubts So he Sadeel t Opera Theol Pref. de Meth. Theol. disput Error 3. p. 8. writing of deceivers the sundry wayes they use to beguile the simple Notes them to be men affecting darke sayings and seeking by mists and fogges of strange unfamiliar arguments to blind their spirituall eyes and puzzle their understandings And this is no late devise For Augustine in his Booke of Heresies maketh mention of the Hereticks Marcitae so named of one Marcus And touching them thus I find it written v Obscurissime quibusdaÌ„ verborum tanquam misteriorum in volueris utentes loquebantur de Deo ut stupereÌ„t audientes homines potius quaÌ„ intelligerent They did speake darkly and used such a wrapping kind of words that the hearers were rather astonied with the strangnes of the words then edified with any understanding they had of the meaning thereof The thing being thus the Reader hence as by a light may gready helpe himselfe to discerne on whose side the truth is in the difference between us Our dispute is about Church-hearing We say that Christians are bound to performe this service unto God in true constituted Churches There we say must men heare the whole Counsell of God taught unto them either by lawfull Ministers or by Brethren out of office For confirmation hereof we can produce many divine precepts Also the Example and practice of our forefathers from the first age of the word hitherto Besides this is a Position so certaine and cleare as it is holden in all Schooles written continually in Bookes preached every day in Sermons taught in all Churches So that haec Momo ipsi satisfaciant no body can speake against it Danaeus in August haer Our Opposites howbeit they grant us this yet affirme that in false Churches Antichristian Ministers may be heard also * Pag. 3. And this is not only they say lawfull but in some cases necessary for all of all Sects and sorts of Christians having opportunity and occasion of so doing This indeed they say But how prove they it to be true Not by any law of God taken out of the old or new Testament For that they cannot doe Not by any holy mans Example for they know there is none extant Not by any sound consequence rightly drawne from the Scripture for quid si Caelum ruat x Teren. in Heautont that is impossible VVhat doe they then as Ieremy y Ier. 2 13. sayth they forsake the fountaine of living waters and hew them out cesternes broken cèsternes that can hold no waters They devise certaine obstruse darke and ambiguous phrases and distinctions As of naturall hearing in a Church and of a hearing wherein there is Communion Of some Churches false in respect of order Others in respect of fayth and order of hearing false Ministers not quatenus as they are false Ministers or their Ministers but as men gyfeed and the Bishops Ministers of certaine effects which followes mens teaching c. Thus their proofes are only their bare and bould affirmation For leaving the Scriptures they use Paralogismes fond cavils and false arguments The which course not only shewes an il case but also manifesteth that the embracers thereof are either ignorant people who cannot judge of things that differ or some that have some mens persons in admiration Or such as are unwilling to suffer affliction with the people of God I could here mention some other devises in this kind as an implicit Church-covenant A true outward calling which some have to the Ministery from their Congregation but secret and unknowne either to the Minister or the people But I will at this time abstaine from such by-controversies and the rather because I shall have a firt occasion to speake hereafter of it Namely when the Vndertakers have finished their answer to my former Booke and Mr. Davenport published his many things that he hath to say against it For so much he insinuateth in his Treatise betweene him and Mr. Pagit * Pag. 282 283. 2. Observe againe to what grosse absurdities his argument leadeth For unles it be only wind and vanitie these sweet collections must needs follow 1. No Minister comming newly to his place is to be heard 2. Before any are inquirie must be made whether they ordinarily begit men to the faith 3. If after triall it be found that they doe not so then they must not be heard what true Doctrines soever they teach Is not this workman-like done say Reader hath not the Pist omne tulit punctum made the way cleare now for the hearing of false Ministers Truely I thinke except a man be partiall in the point And of his mind who said z Non persuade bis eâ—i imsi persuaseris Though you doe convince me yet I will not be convinced He must acknowledge that he hath made it doubt fuller then ever it was and such as were not well satisfied formerly in the thing have enought here from his owne pen to put them quite and wholy off SECTION 5. THe Pist having done with his Logick comes in the next place to charge his Opposites with contradiction absurdity and speaking little better then Blasphemy A great fault if true But how doth he prove it They say it is not the Word of God as it is preached in Antichristian Assemblies Answ The Publish had done well if he had published out assertion de manu in manum truely and faithfully But seeing he hath not done so I will here lay it downe
c. I see nothing in it wherefore he should desire the reader to take knowledge of it For as for riches credit of the World and outward peace here instanced as they are good things in themselves so they may be desired and in a right way and course Lawfully sought after For the other namelie Hearing of the Word obedience to the Magistrate c. In these things too we must keepe our selves within the limits and bounds which God hath set us For his phrase of streaning and gooing as neere the Winde as may be J hope he meant no streaning of a good conscience If he did not then his counsell is of no use at all except it could be proued that the Lord requires his people to heare in the way and manner hee pleads for a worke ab Asino lanam not possibly to be done As there are some scrupulous in things amisse touching outward Ordinances and yet faultie otherwayes So I beleeve there are many not scrupulous in things amisse touching outward ordinances and yet in their course of life base and scandalous enought But what of this must not Gods House and Ordinances be deare to our soules because some mens conversation is not according to their profession God forbid For in the holiest Society upon Earth it is possible that there should be wicked persons When there was but 4 in the World one was a Kaan when 8. onely in the Arke one was a Cham Among the 12. one a Iudas The purest Wheate hath some chaffe with it The fairest garden some weeds in it Therefore let no man forbeare to practice any knowne truth for other mens lewd lives onely let them be carefull to doe well themselves Mourne for such as doe otherwise and seeke by all due and lawfull meanes their Amendment And this is the burden and no other which the Lord layes upon them The last sort he divides into 5 rankes at which he either girds or right-out chargeth with Hypocrisie partialitie pride ignorance mallace and the like It is said of Tamberlane * Richard Knowles in the life of Baiazee that he raised warre against Baiazet the fourth King of the Turkes because he refused to receive certaine strange Garments which he sent unto him I beleeve had these men embraced the Treatisers opinion in this point of Hearing they should not have heard him speake so bitterly against them But to the particulars Some are carried with so excessive admiration of some former guides in their course Treat as they thinke is halfe Heresy to call into question any of their determinations or practises Answ Howsoever we must live by our owne faith notwithstanding we are not lightly to esteeme of the determinations and practises of our guides specially when we know they are no reeds but men stable and unchangeable in the truth He is a foolish traviler that will leave the way which he hath long kept unlesse he be sure he is out There is as Polanus h CoÌ„ment in Ezech. cap. 20. pag. 487. saith a laudable imitation of Elders That is so farre to follow them as they are followers of Christ 2. J know none more faulty this way then such as have learned of him to heare unlawfull Ministers For were not these men superstitiously addicted to his new devise they would beware how to reject as they doe the unanimous judgement and practice of all Learned Men and true Churches and follow the blinde trodd of his single opinion Such as lay downe rules to finde out the truth by write thus What the Fathers i Quid-quid omnes pariter uno codemque consensu c. Vincent Lirenens cont prophanos haeret c. 4. all with one consent have held and written is a necessary token to know the truth by Againe k D. Feild of the church l. 3. c. 43 p. 175 Whatsoever hath beene holden at all times and in all places by all Christians that hath not beene noted for novelty singularity and division is to be received as the undoubted truth of God If these Assertions be true the Treatisers then is untrue For not onely are all old Writers against it but the most Learned of later times Yea and let it be minded all Sects and sorts of people professing Christianitie abhorre it J except onely Familists For they and he â—â—dem in ludâ— docti are for the pleading and practice here much alike Some againe are much addicted to themselves as the former to others Treat Conceiving in effect though they will not professe it the same of their Heads which the Papists doe of their Head the Pope that they cannot erre or be deceived And this specially in such matters us for which they have suffered trouble and affliction formerly Answ 1. Wee are all more ready to blame faults in others then to see our owne and amend them Had not the Treatiser thought to well of himselfe I doubt whether he would so lightly have singled himselfe out and become as it were every mans opposite Humble minds are affraid to meddle with novelties but such as seeke humane praise imagine they cannot enought be observed unlesse out of the dreggs of Sophistry they raise some strange quiddities whereby to crosse truths generally received 2. That any man should love and like a thing because it leads to persecution That J cannot thinke But this J thinke There are some which doe professe practice many things and namelie this of Hearing on no better ground or reason but hereby to keep themselves out of troubles There is also a third sort who bend their force rather to the weakning of other men in their courses Treat then to the building up of themselves in their owne halfe imagining that they draw neere enought to God if they can withdraw enought from other men Answ I cannot devise for what end the Treat * Aliquid latet quod non patet should seeke thus to discover other mens nakednes except it be he thought that the more vile and contemptible he made his Opposites appeare in the Readers eye the easier he would be won to embrace this his opinion of Hearing Antichristian Ministers a prittie trick Much like that Lesson of the Cannon Lavv Si non caste tamen cause But such shifts profit not for a godly minde will search and looke into the cause it selfe and not on the persons either for or against it To oppose a bad course is meet and lawfull and should we be silent when we are called to testifie against it we should make our selves hereby open transgressours Touching the building up of our selves This as Iude †Ver. 20. teacheth must be in our most holy faith He that rayseth up a House with rotten stuffe * What is there else in Babilon will loose his cost and labour by it I know not what withdrawing he meanes from other men if he intend a withdravving from the Hearing of false Ministers then I answer they doe