Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
christian_n	church_n	communion_n	separate_v	1,901	5	9.2917	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91884	A moderate answer to Mr. Prins full reply to certaine observations on his first twelve questions: vvherein all his reasons and objections are candidly examined and refuted. A short description of the congregationall way discovered. Some arguments for indulgence to tender consciences modestly propounded. By the same author.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?, attributed name.	1645 (1645)	Wing R1676; Thomason E26_20; ESTC R13022	43,033	54

members of Churches should be thus judged Saints because all the Ordinances that Christ hath left it s for to build up the Church they are to be administred in the Church now none have right to the Ordinances but Saints and therefore none may be admitted but such as can be judged so by the Saints Againe for the former which we say is consent or agreement whether by covenant or any other way we stand not on it we conceive first it ariseth from the nature of the thing the Church being a politick body wherein is rule and authority nothing but free consent or agreement to walk in such wayes can constitute it as in all other policies What makes England as a Common-wealth or as a Church to be such a policie but the consent of the people who have given up themselves to be governed by such Laws and Constitutions Secondly if this be not granted there can be no distinction of Churches in the world but all must be under one power for what makes England as a Church distinct from Scotland or Scotland from all Churches that they have no authoritative power over each other but onely this that the members of England or Scotland have not consented to walk under any other power but their own Surely the bounds of Seas or Rivers can no more distinguish Churches then a wall or a doore can if there be no other distinction and no other thing but consent can forme a Policie Besides Scripture is no way silent for the proof of this Not to urge many that place is famous and may serve for all in Act. 9. 26. Paul after he was converted it is said Assayed to joyne himselfe to the Disciples at Jerusalem and the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth to be glewed to them Now observe Paul was converted and a Saint yet not joyned to the Church he was in that place where they were he was joyned to them as they were Saints yet he was not joyned to them as a Church and this joyning was not Physicall but Morall Now this must be done by free consent and willing subjection to the Ordinances or no way For the ordinary Officers of the Church they are Pastors Teachers 1 Cor. 12. 28. Ephes 4. 11. Teaching-Elders and Ruling-Elders 1 Tim. 5. 17. Deacons Acts 6. 1 Tim. 3. Widows 1 Tim. 5. 9. Rom. 16. 1. That the Church hath power of choosing its own Officers is cleare from Acts 1. 21. Acts 6. 3. and Chap. 14. 23. That a Church is but one Congregation having power within it selfe to exercise all the Ordinances is apparent in the new Testament neither do we read of any other there First the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 used for the Church signifieth no other neither hath it any other signification in the new Testament when referred to any visible Company neither is it used by any profane Author for to note out a larger Society then could meet together in one place For the Church at Jerusalem it was but one Church Acts 2. 46. and 5. 12. and 6. 1. and 15. 25. and 21. 22. and 25. 22. so the Church of Antiochia was but one Church Acts 14. 27. they are said to gather the Church together now that could not be the Elders for for Elders onely the word Church is never used and the same persons that are called the Church vers 27. are in vers 28. called the Disciples and Chap. 15. 1. the Brethren so Acts 11. 26. the same persons are called the Church Disciples and Christians Besides the Church of Corinth was but one Church was but one particular Congregation 1 Cor. 5. 4. 1 Cor. 14. 25. 1 Cor. 11. 17. vers 23. In uno codem loco neither can the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ever be shewed to signifie any thing else besides one particular Assembly as learned Baines wel observes I shal conclude this with quoting of what that judicious Divine D. Ames saith in this particular Med. p. 190. Hine variae Congregationes fixae ejusdem Regionis ac Provinciae plurali numero semper appellantur Ecclesiae non una Ecclesia etiam in Judaea quae tota fuit antea una Ecclesia Nationalis Act. 2. 46. 15. 12. 14. 27. 1 Cor. 5. 4 11. 17. 23. 1 Thes 2. 14. Acts 14. 23. and 15. 41. Rom. 16. 4. 5. 16. 1 Cor. 16. 1. 1. 19. 2 Cor. 8. 1. 18. 19. Gal. 1. 2. 22. 1. Rev. Ecclesiae enim illae particulares quae in N. T. commemorantur convenice solent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 neque in toto N. T. legitue de institutione Ecclesiae amplioris a quo minores Congregationes penderent c. Thus you see a short description and discovery of what we hold about Church-government with some Scriptures in stead of others that move us to this way The Reasons and Grounds I doubt not but we shall see at large when that shall be made publike which our Brethren have urged in the Assembly and presented to the Parliament But to proceed For that part wherein he saith I should have proved that Christ hath set one immutable forme of government and have made it out by direct Scriptures besides what is laid down in the Observations which I doubt not to make good against his cavills I thought Master Prin had read learned Master Parker de Eccles Pol. Cartwright and the most of the Nonconformists who though Presbyteriall in their judgement yet have largely proved that to whom I shall refer him for larger satisfaction I know none that ever writ against the immutablenesse of a forme of Church-government in the new Testament but Episcopall and Pontificiall men as Hooker Bilson The judgement of the Church of Scotland is quite contrary For they assert their Presbytery to be Jure Divino and holds its Title onely from heaven it seems the Presbyterians differ as well as the Independants and they are also various in their judgements some think there is no forme of government others that there is But to the Arguments First Exod. 25. 40. I said if this were granted the Gospel would be straiter then the Law Heb. 8. 5. Christ more unfaithfull then Moses and the Argument lies thus according to his own drawing if God set a pattern to Moses of every thing to be done in the Church from which he was not to vary upon any termes these being but carnall Ordinances comparatively Heb. 9. 10. then he hath prescribed a forme of government in the new Testament to all Churches Nations c. from which they may not vary but the former Ergo the Medium or ground of arguing between these two is from the care that God hath of the Church at all times being one and the same rather more in the new Testament God had shewed lesse care over his Churches now than then if he had not prescribed a set Government for them also besides their Ordinances had been more spirituall far then ours

Independent from the Apostles Laws And if he put it as an Argument it runs thus if the Primitive Churches were subject to the Apostles Laws Rules then are all Churches now subject to a Presbytery and Synods the consequence we desire you to prove To whom should the Church be subject but to these who gave them the minde of God immediatly And here let the Reader observe that in this Head Master Pryn brought in many Arguments by way of absurdity upon the holding of the Primitive Churches to be a pattern of all other which it seems he is ashamed to mention and seeth now because of what was retorted on him that even they themselves are absurd For that he saith of my retorted That the Scriptures were written in the infancie of the Church therefore better might be written now that is a blasphemous conclusion It s confessed Yet had it as good a consequence as yours that the Churches now had a more perfect constitution then the Churches in the Apostles times because they were the first and as you call them Infant churches Whereas you say that the Scripture was writ by the Ancient of dayes who hath neither infancie nor imperfection as the Church hath I Answer That the Scripture was writ to be a Rule to perfect the Churches and the reason of the imperfection of the Churches is because it comes not up to that Rule and these Churches how ever you deemed them Infant had more knowledge of that Rule then ever any yet have had they receiving it more immediatly from Gods mouth then any since and their Churches must needs be more exactly constituted then any since who lived under the Apostles direction and had all they had from them as from God To that I say that he would make a Nationall Church more perfect then a Congregationall he saith he doubts not to averre it since warranted by direct * Eph. 4. 11 12 13. 2 Cor. 13. 9. Heb 6. 1. 1 Pet. 9. 10. Phil. 3. 12. 2. Heb. 13. 21. James 1. 4. Scriptures to the which I shall refer the Reader but to look over and then let him learn hereafter to be taken with Master Pryns Marginall Quotations what shaddow there is of proof in these Scriptures but a cast of an eye will discern But yet I answer Imperfection in any thing ariseth more or lesse either from the defect of something essentiall or which is to the beauty and ornament and glory of a thing or both then is a thing more or lesse perfect when either its essentialls are more perfect or that which accidentally goes to the adorning of it What there is more of these two in a Nationall Church then in a Congregationall I know not unlesse the mixt multitude of beleevers and profane persons growing up together into a bitter bulk of sin should adde either to the essence or ornament of a Church if God had seen so much beauty in Nationall-churches above others he would not have destroyed the Jewish State or at least would have stablished the like in the Gospel and would have converted the heathen Empires and have took them in to be a Church to him It was the mixt multitude which came out of Egypt with the Israelites that brought them to so much wo indeed were a whole nation such as could be judged reall Saints it would be a lovely sight to behold so many Churches walking together in the unity of the faith but that never hath been yet we know not what may be we have little hopes of it untill the Jews be called if then And which is a more perfect State a company of visible Saints joyned together in love and walking in all the Ordinances of God according to their light or a whole nation wherein there is here and there a Saint walking with Whoremasters Drunkards and all sorts of ungodly ones without distinction and enjoying all these Ordinances that the most have no right unto The comparison between a grown experienced Christian and a babe in grace is no way proportionable to this thing Wherein lies the growth and perfection and experience in a Nationall-church that is not in a Congregationall Either it lies in the Presbytery and Nationall-assembly or in the distinct Parishes and the Members of them If in the Assembly that they are so experienced the people have little benefit by it unlesse to subject their necks to what they say and there is the same in many Congregationall-churches when met for advice if in the Parishes and the severall Congregations the same is in this way we speak of much more little is the edification the members have from the perfection of a Nationall-church seeing they cannot meet together or be present at the hearing of these experiences that others have the onely benefit the members have is from the enjoyment of the gifts of their own Pastour and it may be he one that they never chose as Pastour to them but was imposed on them and the truth is this is but to circumscribe the Church in the Ministers for else there may be more understanding men and experienced Christians in a Congregationall-church then generally thorowout a nation the common people being most ignorant every where One thing he urgeth more in this That a Congregationall-church is forced to pray in the aid of other Churches for advice assistance c. which a Nationall-church need not Now here let all the world observe whether he or any of the Presbyterians have cause to call us Independent What more independent then a Nationall-church It s a Pope infallible needs no aid assistance of any Church in the world it hath a spirit of infallibility tied to its girdle We acknowledge we need help and assistance from other Churches they need none and here all you Presbyterians either renounce Master Pryns opinion and get some other Champion for you or else for ever cease to open your mouth to call any of the Congregationall way Independent In fine saith he He himself confesseth that the Apostles made new rules for Government and Discipline as occasion served and as God fitted occasions so he made known new rules successively by degrees not at once c. Therefore the Infant-Church in the Apostles dayes was not so compleat and perfect in all its parts as the multiplied and grown Churches afterwards A. How much he hath failed in the recitall of this let the Reader compare and judge I will not say wilfully as he saith of me for he hath left out that part which was the strength of all which if he had took in his Position had been overthrown which was that though the Apostles added by degrees according as occasion served new Rules and Offices for to what end should they adde untill there was occasion yet so as at length they discovered all the minde of God concerning his Churches Government and left it as a pattern to all the Churches As the Scriptures were not written all at once but

State free from the blood of Martyrs if this Principle be ingrafted to them and practised by them Ninthly this will be the greatest hindrance of knowledge and growth in Religion that can be for it puts out mens own eyes and judgment and ties them to see by others every man which hath not his conscience and judgment quite sold to the common opinions and lost in the common road will be affraid to read the Scriptures or search them throughly for if God should dart in any light from them or his own ingenuity thorough the strength of his reason should be forced to dissent from the multitude either he must stiffle in the birth his divine conception for so it may be for if he be known to be of such a judgment though in it self never so small he must loose all he hath and ipso facto be liable to the greatest censure or else he must dissemble his judgment and wound his conscience what a strait is this this will be only growth in religion to grow up more conformable to the opinion of the times he will be accounted the most knowing man who hath the language of the times most by heart no man durst set to himself a higher pitch in walking with God then the State hath set to him upon pain of the greatest hazard and wheras God reveals divers truths in divers ages times especially in matters of government and worship more and more as men come out of Antichristian darknesse yet none must be suffered and tolerated but that one it may it self be Antichristian at the least miserable cold and formall Tenthly if you will needs be punishing for smaller difference in judgment I desire you to shew your Commission and Warrant from the Lord Jesus and I am sure he never gave either patterne or precept for such a course he knowes his gifts he gives to men are different and that light he communicates is more and lesse and he beares with his Saints who are of different growth and stature and I thinke we ought to beare much more who are as infirme as any others he bore with his Disciple weaknesse when they believed not the resurrection and came with peace in his mouth to them how much more would he have borne if they had doubted only of matters of Discipline Rom. 15. 1. you which are strong ought to heare with the infirmities of the weak and not to please your selves as Christ pleased not himself I hope you will walk as Christ walked Christ told his Disciples Luk. 9. 54. that they knew not of what spirit they were of when they would have fire to come down from heaven to consume those that would not receive him there are many such spirits now a day but they know not what spirit they are of Object But it will be said and its the maine objection they have if we tolerate you we must likewise tolerate Papists c. Answ That doth not follow for their very principles opposeth the secular power they differ in fundamentalls and are properly another Religion and yet the State faith when they execute Jesuites and Fryers c. it is not for their conscience or religion only That we differ is but in a point not of absolute necessity to salvation though neerer the beauty and ornament of Religion and being a truth of Christ as is conceived it must be prized and we dare not discharge our conscience of it I shall say no more of this but let men take heed how they persecute the Saints and oppresse their Brethren lest Jesus Christ draw forth his Iron Scepter against them to vindicate the innocency of his people To my twelfth quaere saith he he only answers That I fall a jeering of my Brethren and that I put a nick name on them to make them odious not answering one sillable to the substance of the Question To what I should answer more then I did I am not yet informed for this was his Question whether it be not a proud insolent name we arrogate to be independent I answered that wee disclaime it and that in print and therefore his Quaere could be nothing but a jeare To which he answers first That this title was at first assumed approved of by your selves and is still owned by many you should have named the persons that assumed it as for our parts as many as I know abhor the name as it s fathered on us Indeed we are independent in this regard that we will not subject our judgements and cause to the juridicall power either of Master Pryn or any others though we will lie down at the foot of Christ in whatever he shall command us out of his Word and the truth is the Presbytery is the onely independent in the world and may most properly be called so for you neither depend on the Scriptures for it for you affirme not jure divino neither hath it dependence on others for you say in your third Reply pag. 13. that it needs not the aid and assistance of other Churches for as the ever honoured Lord Brookes said in his booke against Bishops I know no reason why one Congregation should be accounted more independent in respect of a whole Nation then Geneva in respect of France and France in respect of all Europs cominent Therefore you are best to take up that title on your selves as most suiting with your principles As for our part we are accomptable for our actions to every neighbour Church that shall in the name of Christ require it and we stand not independent from but hold communion with all other Churches both in Ordinances and asking counsell mutually though we thinke no Church hath a power of jurisdiction to command or impose any thing on us To which you answer That if we are accountable for our actions to every particular neighbour Church then why not much more to a Parliament or Synod To which I answer We shall be as ready to give an account to the Parliament and Synod of any action we do with the reason of it as well nay rather then to any other as for the way of doing of it we are accountable by way of information and satisfaction and in some cases unto the Magistrate by way of just appeal as in case an obstinate offender shall be excommunicated and he be unruly he or we may appeal to the Magistrate for redresse we that if the Magistrate judge him justly excommunicated he may be restrained from disturbing of us he that if the Magistrate judge the sentence unjust may be publikely cleared and vindicated But for any authorative power of jurisdiction that Synods or any have to make Canons and impose on us which we are bound to follow we humbly conceive it not be the minde of Christ and we shall desire Master Pryn to shew us his Rule in Scripture To the second he answers That if you stand not independant from other Churches but hold communion with them

Then first why do you separate from them as no true Christians Answ I answer in generall We separate from none we know to be true Churches but if you mean by your true Church the whole bulk of the nation whom you call a Church we must needs separate from it for we acknowledge no such Church Yet Secondly Though we acknowledge not England as a nation to be a true Church yet we acknowledge many true Churches in England with whom yet we cannot communicate in Church Ordinances because of many personall defilements among them or yet purged out and if they would give us leave in our communion with them to professe against these corruptions which we think defile them we should not scruple communion with them You know that one may be a reall man yee so corrupted with diseases and sores that it may be dangerous to come nigh him or eat or drink with him Glad should we be to joyn with them if they were so reformed and that mixture taken away that as nigh as could be none but such as had a right to Christ might partake of the Ordinances untill then you must excuse us if though we think many to be true Churches we cannot actually communicate with them You tell us saith he that neither I nor any Synods nor this Synod is infallible c. Therefore men are not bound to obey their decrees on penalty of sin To which he answers onely by way of Querie May not you and your Independent Ministers erre as well others O yes surely therefore they arrogate not such a power to make Laws for others as for that of the Major Votes it s answered before How ever slight Master Pryn makes of this reason yet untill he hath answered he must give us leave to beleeve it For if Synods have power to binde the conscience it is either because they can enjoyn nothing but truth for truth onely binds the conscience and so are infallible or else because of their own power and authority I know no other ground for it Is this good Logick or Divinity saith he Good Ministers may and do erre in some points of Divinity therefore we will beleeve them in none In that you say true there is neither Logick nor Divinity but the Consequence as I draw it is this Ministers may erre therefore none are absolutely bound to beleeve every thing they say as Scripture and so to sin if they obey not for it s a certain truth not probable that binds the conscience Certain I say either as I apprehend it or in regard of it self if I am bound to beleeve what ever they say that are in authority who may erre then my conscience is subject to errour as well as truth for that which is commanded may be errour yea if I think it errour yet I must obey it and this holds in every thing as well as any thing for in all things that is commanded they who command are to go by their own ●…dgements of the truth of the thing that they enjoyn and their judgements may erre yet I am bound to obey and sin if I do not Nay suppose what they command to be a truth yet I think it an errour and so it is to me my conscience so judging yet I am bound to obey else I sin The Lord learn you and those in authority more tendernesse to Saints consciences that you may not put such a yoke upon our necks that neither we nor our fathers were able to bear FINIS