false as do not preserve all Christian Communion with the Saints nor joyn with them in all duties of worship so far as they are able shall not have the benefit of this indulgence And to the end that these words so far as they are able may not stand for a meer Cypher and signifie nothing let each man particularly declare in what ordinances he is able to joyn that so all total Separation may be prevented p. 70. Indep Though we shall not joyn with we will not condemn your Churches as false And this no rigid Separation p. 71. Presb. The condemning our Churches as false doth little extenuate the Separation For divers of the Brownists who have totally separated in former times have not condemned these Churches as false Though you do not pronounce an affirmative judgement against us your very separating is a tacit and practical condemning of our Churches if not as false yet as impure eousque as that in such Admistrations they cannot be by you as Members communicated with without sin Indep However though we cannot communicate with you as Members of your particular Congregations yet we will preserve all Christian Communion with you as Saints and Members of the Catholick Church Presb. This is as full a declining Communion with us as Churches as if we were false Churches p. 72. Indep If this be called Schism or the countenance of Schism it is more then we have yet learned either from the Scripture or any approved Author p. 73. Presb. It gives manifest countenance to perpetual Schâ—sm should this be allowed you Not that we think differences in Judgment in this or that point to be Schism or that every Inconformâ—ty unto every thing is Schism so as Communion be preserved Or that Separation from Idolotrous Communion ex se unlawful is Schism but 1. We find that you desire not onely that you may be free from communicating as Members in those Parishes where you dwell but also that you may have liberty to have Congregations of such persons who out of tenderness of Conscience cannot communicate with us but do voluntarily offer themselves to joyn in separate Congregations of another Communion Which Secession of our Members from us is a manifest rupture of our Societies into other and is therefore a Schism in the body And if the Apostle doth call those Divisions of the Church wherein Christians did not separate into diverse formed Congregations of several Communions in the Sacrament Schisms much more may such Separations as you desire be so called 2. We find it not alleaged as a Cause of your Separation either that our Churches are false or our Communion exâ—se unlawful but onely Scruple of Conscience that you cannot without sin as to you partake in all duties and enjoy all ordinances which is no Cause of separating nor doth it take off Causless Separation from being Schism which may arise from errours of Conscience as well as carnal and corrupt Reasons Therefore we conceive the Causes of Separation must be shewn to be such as ex Natura rei will bear it out which hath not yet been done nor we think can be 3. And now we desire you to shew out of Scripture and approved Authors what you have learned concerning Schism For the breaking off Members from their Churches which are lawfully constituted Churches and from Communion in Ordinances dispenfed according to Gods word without just and sufficient Cause ex natura rei to justifie such Secession and to joyn in other Congregations of separate Communion either because of Causless Scruple of their own Conscience or because of personal failings in the Officers or Members of the Congregation from which they separate hath been accounted Schism and the setting up Altare contra Altare And concurrently do approved Authors say and we likewise conceive that it is the Cause of the Separation which gives both name and thing to Schism For if the cause be unjust or insufficient according to the Rule of the Word of God let our Brethren tell us what such Separation is It is our â—arnest desire and Prayer that our Brethren might enjoy the Ordinances with the Peace of their Consciences and of the Church also or that they would rather deny themselves of their full liberty in every point then redeem it at the price of so much danger and disqâ—riet to the Churches of God p. 74 5 6 7. Indep The Ministers of the Parish Churches are not such as we can comfortably joyn with and sit down under Presh We do not believe that you mean that onely such should be allowed to gather into your Congregations who live under bad and unprofitable Ministers though that be the onely medium there used against our Reason Where the Ministry is without P. 84 85. just exception we refer it to your own Conscinces and to the practise of your Congregations to say how fit it is that the Members should ordinarily much less constantly seek the Ordinances elsewhere We long to know what Reformation of our Parishes will satisfie your Consciences or how this Kingdom may be made the Kingdom of the Lord and of his Christ better then by dividing it into several parts by the bounds of their dwellings that all who give up their Names to Christ may be taught and governed and have all the Ordinances administred among them suitable to their Conditions p. 102. Indep But it seems you would have us for ever to want the Lords Supper which is not to be endured p. 102. Presb. 1. Why may not some expedient satisfie you in this to prevent so great an evil as Separation 2. We may not do evil for any good end If a man should be brought to such a Streight as that either he must want the Lords Supper or separate from the Congregation whereof he is a Member he may here want the Ordinance during this Errour of his Conscience with less danger than to purchase it by a sinful separation 3. This is a strange and dangerous way of arguing which may open a gap to as many Divisions and Subdivisions in the Church as the Errours are unto which the minds of men are subject And if this be allow'd we desire you to consider how long not our Churches onely but your own or any other Churches in the World shall be free from uncurable unquietness Indep It must be a prejudice to the Church we are in if we separate from her in the Lords Supper And yet you would have us live under their Government whom we prejudice which seems unreasonable to us p. 104 Presb. If your Errours cause prejudice against you is it unreasonable for you to be under the Government of that Church which is prejudiced by you may you with good reason Scandalize the Church by Separation and the Church have no reason to govern you then prejudicating or scandalizing Errours are a Supersedeas to all Government We do not then wonder that Errours and perverse opinions so much abound it may be
though they may take the Liberty of their own words 6. The sum is the Presbyterians hold the Church of Rome to be a false Church and say you may not gather a Church out of a true Church The Episcopal Divines say that the Church of Rome is truely a Church but not true as a Church should be but false and corrupt both in her Doctrine and Worship so as none can lawfully joyn with her And yet the Church of England is both truly a Church and a a true Church where the Word of God is truly taught whose Doctrine the very Non-Conformists approve of in whose worship many of them say we may joyn without sin where the Sacraments are also rightly administred And therefore without all further controversie they may hold that it is lawful to separate from the Church of Rome but sinful to separate from the Church of England and yet not be able to see what Answer you may give them 7. Besides lastly you may easily know that our eminent Fathers say that if we are in Schism from Rome the Papists themselves were guilty of it in Henry the 8th yea that we did not do not separate from the Church of Rome for we really were never of that Church We never did owe any Communion to to that Church That under the encouragement of own Government and by the authority thereof we onely reformed our selves without separating from Rome or any other Church And if so as in truth it is much good may your Consequence do you 8. But he also intimates a Reflection upon our Churches He doth not indeed speak out but he speaks as if our Parochial Assemblies were either no true Churches or such as we may lawfully Separate from Hear him p. 15. where he first coâ—cedes fairly We do believe saith he that from a Church a number of Christians that have consented to a Pastor that is able and faithful and regularly administers the Ordinances of Christ so as a People may communicate without sin and pressing forward towards perfection in order Christians may not separate without sin And this is that indeed saith he which some Presbyterians reflected upon our Brethren of the Congregational way for And these were those Parochial Churches which they contended for as true Churches And now the bottom is out and his Fallicy is apparent in his foisting I would use an easier word if I could his foisting in now and strange matter into the nature of a true Church and then fathering it upon the Presbyterians when 't is purely Independent Brownistical or his own For if there be any consequence in what he hath said 't is this A Church where the Pastor is duly qualified and the People consent to him and both press forward towards perfection in order you may not separate from But if the Pastor be not in all points well qualified or if the People do not approve of him or if they do noâ— press forward towards perfection in order one may separatâ— from such a Church and the laâ— Presbyterians said nothing to the contrary But suppose the Pastor be faulty in some particulars of his life if he regularly administers in his Office or suppose he be a good man and a diligent Minister and be set over a People by the Laws of our own Church but the People do not like him will you say this is no true Church for these Reasons If you are a Presbyterian you dare not May one separate from such a Church for these Reasons or for these Reasons may you betake your self to a Church of another Constitution was ever this the opinion of the Old Non-Conformists or late Presbyterians Say it not for shame But the weight is behind in the last condition Pressing forward towards Perfection in order These were the Parochial Churches where this excellency was found which the late Presbyterians conâ—ended for as true Churches Thus he would draw his Presbyterian Brethren to own that which is contrary to their express sense and words for they did ex professo dispute that order and discipline was not essential to a true Church and onely for the want of it none might separate In earnest Suppose a Church thinks her Order as to the Government is as perfect as she can or need to have it And she desires that the Execution were better but cannot have it so Yea suppose a Church too careless in this matter whether it be well or no will you or any Presbyterian say it is therefore no true Church or we may therefore separate from it Was not this the Case of the Church of Corinth Doth the Apostle advise or allow any Separation in this case Though their Doctrine also was more corrupt then Arminianism that so much offends you and their Communion debauched even with Intemperance and Luxury Besides whatever unjust and unconscionable clamours we labour under we are ready to maintain that our Ministers generally are of holy and unblameable Lives and do faithfully and regularly administer both the Word and Sacraments and that our People generally do or very lately did submit to their Parochial Ministers and really own them as their Guides by their attendance upon the worship of God in our Temples and those few that did not I hope I have sufficiently proved that they ought to have done it And now I shall venture to appeal to the Conscience of my Reflecter himself whether so general and total a defection and decession from a true Church as he seemeth to acknowledge some of ours to be and if any sure they are such as they separate from would have been judged other then Schismatical by the Apostles themselves or by the Fathers or by the reformed Churches beyond Sea or by our own ancient Non-Conformists if no other Reason could be alledged for it but what he hath here urged As for the late Presbyterians indeed it is the very question what they thought of this point and whether it be lawful in their Judgment for such Reasons as he hath brought us to separate and to gather our People into new Churches will better appear from their own words for they can yet speak for themselves and you will find they do it fully in the following Dialogue What the Reflection means by P. 14. putting A Subjection in all the Ordinances of the Gospel to the Lord Jesus Christ into the definition of the Church I cannot certainly divine but if it signifie any thing more then the received Definitions of a true Church it signifies nothing but an Engine of Divisions The Presbyterians perhaps will have it in to serve his Ruling Elder The Independent to keep out all Forein Jurisdiction and keep himself exempt from all power without the bounds of a particular Church The Anabaptist for the necessity of Baptizing as necessary to a true Church And thus it becomes an Instrument fitted for the mutual damning one another Whereas if the difinition of Calvin and reformed Divines keep its
famous Case of the Recabites They â—bstained from Wine in obedience â—o their Fathers command after â—e was dead and all fear of his â—rath was gone Now what â—ould move or oblige them but Conscience Conscience I say â—ot that the matter was otherwise commanded by God or was for the publick good but â—n honour to their dead Parent which God commanâ—ed Thereâ—ore we find God approves accepts and rewards it Which vâ—ry thing proves it was ultimately and really an obedience to Gods own Will for God approves accepts and rewards nothing elsé But the foresaid Author pursues J. H. His second Principle his discourse to a Principle â—hat seems to me of more dangerous consequences to Government P. 112 c. That hâ—mane Powers may not lawfully cemmand or inforce any thinâ— against the Conscieâ—ces or perswasions of the Consciences of thâ— Subject even in civil concernâ— And for this instance he is venturous to say that a Tax may bâ— P. 118. laid upon the People yet if anâ— one resuses to pay it as one oâ— the Fifth Monarchy he observes may possibly in point of Conscience do though distress may bâ— taken for the publick good yet thâ— person may not lawfully be punished for not paying it Anâ— thus his matter runs smoothly but if we may have leave to make choice of an Instance â— think he will desire no furtheâ— answer in this particular E. G. The Law of God is the Rule of Conscience This Law is Negative as well as Affirmative and binds the Conscience equally in both respects So far we are agreed Nâ—w admit a man of the Fifth Monarchy or a number of such men shall think they are bound in Conscience by virtue of some plain Text in the Revelations to destroy the Wicked to set up the Government of Jesus Christ in his Saints and from that of the Psalmist in order to this great work to bind the Kings of the Earth in Chains and our Nobles in Fetters of Iron Seriously say what think you of this Case may not the Sword of the Magistrate be made a terrour to such evil Doers may not those bloody Consciences be restrained by commands and menaces may not these bloody hands be cut off and punished may not Conscientious Murther be revenged no little Artifices of mans wit no cunning Subterfugs of debaucheâ— Consciences can possibly race out that indeleble Law of Nature and the God of Nature he that shedeth mans blood by man shall his blood be shed And if the like colour from Conscience be put upon Theft Adultery or any of the sins against our Neighbour they may easily receive a like Answer You will say perhaps these are evil by virtue of Gods command before mans Law was made true so also 't is a good which God requires before the Tax be made that we should give to every one his due Tribute to whom Tribute Custom to whom Custom And I am apt to think that what is given to King Charles by our selves in Parliament is as due to him as what was exacted by Caesars command was to Caesar I am afrâ—id I shall trouble that Ingenious Authâ—r otherwise I should mind him that by such Principles the Non-Conformists are not likâ—ly to carry it in point of Loyalty or tendency to Publick Good which draw both Râ—ligion and Justice and prâ—pâ—rly it self under such Authority of private Conscience as unhâ—ngâ—th Government And to say no worse leave all those precious things in an unestablished condition But I spare them for he many times seems to explain himself a great deal better then his Principle will bear him out And sometimes especially towards the latter end of his Book when he had better considered the Consequences of it he more then seems to suspect it and resolves all into the Prudence of the Governour no doubt finding his distinction of the Power of restraint and coustraint would not serve him in all emergencies Let him consider the Law of God obligeth us to do as well as to omit Accordingly Conscience ruled by its apprehensions of that Law obligeth us to both Or whether it do so or no it may be perswaded it doth and that 's all one And though Conscience err yet it is to us as God and by obeying it we obey God and it is above all humane Authority Therefore the Magistrate hath no power to enforce me not to do my apprehended duty or to punish me if I do it though it be to murther the innocent as in the Case before He abhors the consequence but whose are the premises After all this and supposing some of us to be really guilty either of ignorance scandal idleness or imprudence in the aforesaid particulars I cannot be so fond as to believe that this is the chief cause of the present Separation whatever is pretended my Reason is because it hath hitherto so happened as a demonstration to the contrary that where the Dissenters themselves acknowledge their Parish Ministers freest from snch exceptions and all other there is generally the greatest cause to bewail Separation Consequently I have no great No hopes yet do your duties encouragement without a miracle to beleive that if you should reform every thing that is really amiss in you or that they complain of while you are true to the duties of your places the Separation will much abate upon it However you have other sufficient Motives to quicken you other Persons to account with Therefore sâ—t the fear of God and the good of the Church before you and remove all appearances of evil from your selves and all occasions of evil speaking from the Dissenters And let nothing discourage you in your Studies and cares to amend what â—s amiss to persevere in well doing to fulfil your Ministry and to receive your Crown And if notwithstanding your uttermost endeavours to prevent it they will be offended and forsake your Churches bear it as your Cross Pray sor your Enemies with the patience of Christians and the courage of the men of God And however they treat you or the Church cease not to pity and pray for them as you are taught Pray for them though your Enemies Though they slander you and persecute you and for nothing else but the truth's sake as they Apostle That it may please thee to forgive our Enemies Persecutors and Slanderers and turn their Hearts Pray for them as Sheep that are gone astray that it may please thee to bring into the way of truth such as have erred and are deceived We beseech thee to hear as good Lord. Now my Brethren I humbly and earnestly beseech you to pardon my freedome with you Onely take it by the right handle and I know you cannot take it amiss Seeing 't is said I have dealt smartly with our Adversaries if I should not deal plainly with you I should neither follow my Example nor answer my Reprover But I have a word or two also ad populum for our Conforming
they are all but the mediums to liberty and exemptions from Government Indep But living in a Parish doth not make us Members of the Church Presb. We grant it a man must in order of Nature first be a Member of the Church visible and then living in a Parish and making profession of Christianity he may claim admission into the Society of Christians within those bounds and enjoy the Ordinances which are there dispensed Indep Where is your Christian Charity We would edifie our selves the best we can and though we differ but in very small matters you will not suffer us Presb. Can you not be edified without Scandalizing the Church of God we leave to all men to judge whose Charity is greatest their 's who labour to preserve union or theirs who resolve to separate and break it We think Charity binds Christians to prevent all unjust and needless Separation We wonder at your Charity that coming so near us in Doctrine and worship nothing should content you but a Separation p. 105 106. Indep We cannot in Conscience set down where we cannot enjoy all the Ordinances p. 122. Presb. 1. Have you all the Ordinances in your own Churches 2. Do you not hold ruling Elders to be an Ordinance have you these Or be your Churches without some one ordinance and not ours 3. To determine Controversies of Faith cases of conscience judicially is an Ordinance If you must be of no Church but where that is exercised and the liberty of opinions restrained your Churches would be soon destroyed And you would find it we believe difficult to gather more Indep This would prove the best means of Uniformity and Conjunction to allow us distinct Churches according to our own Principles Presb. This is a Riddle we wonder how disjunction can be the only way of Conjunction and Multiformity of Uniformity and Separation of Communion and different Principles and Practises of Conformity What Churches under Heaven may we not hold Conjunction Uniformity and Communion with upon such terms p. 123. Indep But tender Consciences ought to be relieved Presb. We desire to know whether every Persons bare â—lleadging tenderness of Conscience shall be sufficient to warrant his deserting our Congregations p. 49. 2. We much doubt whether such tenderness as ariseth out of an opâ—nion oui potest subesse falsum when the Conscience is so tender that it may also be an erring Conscience can be a sufficient ground to justifie such material Separation as our Brethren plead for For though it may bind to forbear or suspend the Act of Communion in that particulur wherein men conceive they cannot hold Communion without sin yet it doth noâ— bind to follow such a positiv prescript as possibly may be diverse from the Will and Counseâ— of God Of which kind wâ— conceive this of gathering separated Churches out of other truâ— Churches to be one p. 51. Indep In case the Lords Supper be not administred in parity a â—emoval is allowed ordinarily Now we would only gather our selves into other Churches for â—urer enjoyment as to our Conâ—ciencis of all ordinances p. 50 51. Presb. We conceive the ground of your Separation from â—ne Church and gathering oâ—hers to this end that you may â—e preserved from sinning â—gainst your Conscieâ—ces and â—or the purer enjoyment of Orâ—inances may to men of other â—udgments be a ground to crave â—oleration for separating from Churches which are pure and â—athering impure and corrupt Churches out of them p. 50. It was never the meaning of â—he Assemblies to leave the Judgâ—ent of pure or impure Ordinances to this Case unto the alone discretion of a particular Person But before any leave 〈◊〉 Parochial Congregation ordinarily he ought to declare the Cause of his grievance that if it may be his removal may be prevented Except he think fit to change his dwelling in which Case his removal is without offence Indep VVhy may it not be as lawful to go to a separate Congregation for relief as to remove our dwelling to another Parish Presb. It is one thing to remove to a Congregation which is under the same Rule another to a Congregation of a dâ—fferent constitution from the Rule In the one a maâ— retains his Membership in the other he renounceth it p. 52. Indep If the purest Churches in the VVorld unto our Judgement in all other respects should impose as a condition in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper any one thing that such tender Consciences cannot Joyn in as suppose kneeling if they remove from these Churches and have liberty from the State to gather into other Churches to enjoy this and other Ordinances â—here is no Separation Presb. 1. If a Church require that which is evil of any Member he must forbear to do it yet without Separation and waite on Gods Providence in the dispensation of that Church till all remedies have been tryed 2. He that is in this kind oppressed may be relieved by Appeal or change his dwelling 3. They who thought kneeling in the Act of Communion to be unlawful either in England or Scotland did separate or renounce Membership but did some of them with Zeal and Learâ—ing defend our Churches against those of the Separation Indep But we hope you will not question us if we have liberty from the State to gather into other Churches Presb. The Nature of Separation is not to be measured by civil Acts or State but by the Word of God what notion you have of it we know not but surely to leave all ordinary Communion in any Church with dâ—slike when opposition or offence offers it self is to separate from such a Church in the Scripture since such a Separation was not in the Apostles times unless it were used by false Teachers all who professed Christianity held Communion together notwithstanding differences of Judgment or Corruptions in practise p. 55. Indep Our Churches cannot be thought to be guilty of a plain and total Separation unless we did wholly in all things differ by setting up altogether differing Rules of Constitution VVorship and Government Presb. Of this Assertion we expect some proof We read not the like in any Author antient or modern Under this pretense Novatians Donatists all that ever were thought to separate may shelter themselves who themselves boasting of their Separation the most rigid Separatists hold the same Rule of worship and government for substance with you We desire you to consider if every small and circumstantial difference amongst those who agree in most things and those most substantial shall be a sufficient ground to gather Churches out of Churches into a separate and distinct Communion how the Churches of God shall ever be kept free from Rents and Divisions and how the Peace thereof is possible to be preserved Indep But as we hold your Churches to be true Churches so we are ready to hold occasional Communion with them Presb. 1. You have estranged your selves from us hitherto and we have reason to question in what