Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
christian_n	church_n	communicate_v	communion_n	2,762	5	9.2903	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A26882	Catholick communion doubly defended by Dr. Owens, vindicator, and Richard Baxter and the state of that communion opened, and the questions discussed, whether there be any displeasure at sin, or repentance for it in Heaven : with a parallel of the case of using a faulty translation of Scripture, and a faulty lyturgy.	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.	1684 (1684)	Wing B1208; ESTC R11859	46,778	44

erroneous and uncharitable and sinful yet is not to Excommunicate that Congregation as no Church or no Christians But to say of any Congregation that they want any thing essential to Christianity or to make them capable to be loved as Christians or that their Worship of God is Idolatry or so bad as that God accepteth it not the evil of it being greater than the good as poyson in our food and on this reason to declare that no good Christian should Communicate with them this is to Excommunicate such Congregation as far as one Church may Excommunicate another which is but by such renouncing their Communion XXXVIII There is no History that I have seen or heard that tells us of any Churches on Earth that for many hundred years together did Worship God without a Lyturgy as faulty as ours To make them all Idolaters and such whose Worship God cursed and accepted not is to make them no true Churches and if Christ had no Church he was no Head and King of it and so no Christ. XXXIX The use of faulty Lyturgies is no worse than the use of faulty Translations of the Holy Scripture which yet Christ and his Apostles ordinarily used of which I shall say more anon XL. I have before proved how faulty the Priests Calling was in Christs time and the Temple and Synagogue Worship and the Pharisees long Lyturgies on pretence whereof they devoured Widows Houses and their corrupt Doctrine and how great the faults were in the Churches of Corinth Galatia Ephesus Sardis Laodicea Thyatira Pergamos and those that James wrote to from which none were commanded to depart And to Condemn Christ or his Apostles as favouring or using sinful Communion is worse in Christians than it was in the Pharisees These are the Principles and this is the Cause for which I write And I cannot defend it without opposing those that openly militate against it If the Woman of Tekoah could have told David that any one had held or hindered her Son from killing his Brother she would not have called him unpeaceable It was hard measure that the striving Israelite offered to Moses that said Who made thee a Prince and a Iudge over us Intendest thou to kill me as thou killedst the Aegyptian And all for saying Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow If we could as charitably judge of a godly man that differs from us as of our selves and most esteemed Partners how much sin should we avoid But Reader agree with me in this cause of Christian Love and Concord and then think of me and my Writings what thou seest meet The question is not which of us is the Wisest or hath done best but how we should all please the God of Love and Peace and avoid the Evils which have long threatned us and which with grief I must say our mistakes and miscarriages in Religion have brought upon us and are like to increase Many seem like a Ship of Passengers whose Pilot hath cast them by Errour on the Sands or Rocks and some that pity them as they are sinking tell them that their Pilots mistake hath endangered them and they must take better advice And instead of accepting help they revile the helpers as injurious unpeaceable dishonourers of their wise and faithful Pilot. And if far worse be not yet at hand Free-grace must wonderfully frustrate this prognostick SECT 3. IV. BUt somewhat Reverend Sir you oblige me to say about my supposed Doctrinal Errours which you have found in my praises of Dr. O. Had I dispraised him as much you might have found more I said that I doubt not but his Soul is now with Christ and though Heaven have no sorrow it hath great Repentance and that Dr. O. is now more against the receiving of this mistake than I am and by defending it you far more displease him than me Here my supposed Errours are three I. That I suppose him to know so much in Heaven This being but played with as in jeast I answer the more briefly to it in earnest 1. I am not of the Socinians mind that lay the Soul as in nuda potentia to sleep till the Resurrection Nor do I believe that Souls in Paradise with Christ are more ignorant than they were in the Body 2. And therefore I think the Doctor knoweth what he wrote and did on Earth and is not fallen into forgetfulness 3. And that he knoweth into whose hands he gave those Papers and what mind the men were of and how they were received while he lived if they have been so long extant as you seem to intimate and that they were justifyed then 4. And if the Saints shall judge the world and be like or equal to the Angels I do not think that the concerns of this life are any more below their regard nor more impertinent to them than to the Angels Nor that they live as unconcerned Strangers to Earth when a Sun-beam can reach so far The Souls under the Altar that cryed how long knew that their blood was unrevenged on Earth 5. Nor do I believe that Christ with whom they are and the Angels that here attended them are so strange to them as to tell them nothing of the Earth But lest you feign that I suppose them to have News-books Gazetts or Post-letters hence I only advise you that justly extol his Learning and Wisdom on Earth not to bring him too low in Heaven in comparison of us imprisoned Sinners nor make him an ignoramus And then we will but agree that if he know of our faults here he is against them but if he think you are all changed since he died there is mistake in Heaven It followeth not that Souls in Heaven know nothing by Angels because they know not all things Nor that of themselves they know not what a man here may know by common reason that the effects will be like the Cause and his many Friends that owned his mistake on Earth will some of them yet own them I can but be sorry for I am not so presumptuous as to think to change your Judgment if the contrary supposition be your best Weapon against the Popish Superstition of praying to Saints For all this I will hope that you do not pray to Dr. O. for so much as you believe he knoweth nor yet feign him stark ignorant for fear of praying to him Do you think he hath forgotten the ●ase of England Or will you pray to him to intercede for it II. My second supposed Errour is that the Saints in Heaven have any displeasure And this is said to be a Contradiction to the generally received Opinion of all that you have met with I doubt not but your Acquaintance is large but I perceive it is not with all sorts of men I am sorry they should generally deny so great and clear a truth 1. Let us examine the Controversy as of the Matter and 2. As of the Name Displeasure 1. Complacence is the first act of the

shew what the Church professeth to own if the Minister should blutter out any Errour or Undecency and yet not restrain Ministers from the due use of free speech XVIII It is a great sin out of a fond Conceit of the excellency of either way above it 's due value to think speak with unjust vilifying of the other way when God hath tied us to neither alone It is contrary to knowledge love peace and concord out of a self-conceitedness peevishness or false prejudice received from others to think and speak worse of other mens words in Prayer than they deserve and to frighten the ignorant from lawful Communion by calling that sin or false Worship that is not so XIX Not medling with Ministers Subscribing Declaring Swearing nor with the Discipline By-offices Baptizing as by our sort of Godfathers Covenanting without the Parents Crossing and undue application of words at Burial and such like I know nothing in the common Lords-day Worship spoken in the name of the Church which a godly Christian may not joyn in with the exercise of the Spirit of Prayer with faith and comfort if prejudice and false apprehensions of it affright him not or put not his Soul out of relish with it As on the other side prejudice distasteth many too much with the faulty methods and words of many mens extemporate Prayers XX. There are so few Churches on Earth that Worship God without all set Lyturgies or Forms as are next to none And there are very few in all the World so good as the English Lyturgy and that have so few faults Which Martyrs composed and joyfully used And it is unchristian to renounce Communion with any one Church for a reason that is common to all or almost all It being contrary to the Communion of Saints in one body and far worse than to slander any single man XXI It is great self-condemnation in them that cannot bear to be censured nor scarce be contradicted yet thus to censure almost all the Church XXII They that think that Conforming Ministers are guilty of great Sin must consider what diversity of Education Company and Interest may do even on men of Conscience and that we have all our sins And it 's sinful uncharitableness to think and speak worse of them than they deserve and to talk against all for the faults of some XXIII So great is Gods mercy to this Land in yet giving many Godly able Ministers to the publick Churches that it is sinful ingratitude to overlook or deny it though many others be never so bad XXIV The Religion that keepeth possession of the Parish Churches will be the National Religion Mourn therefore before God that ever any men professing Godliness should either labour to get all sound Protestants to desert the Parish Churches or that any such have been against the restoring of Nonconformists by that called a Comprehension which was but the withdrawing of such Impositions as these very men thought sinful and all this lest it should diminish the number and strength of the private Churches By this we see what we are doing against our selves if God save us not XXV They that say Conformists Convert no Souls take on them to know that of thousands which they know not and forget that before 1640. there were few but Conformists to Convert them in the land and that all the Westminster Assembly save eight were such And that the Parliament kept near 7000 in the Ministry that all Conformed on Aug. 24. 1662. XXVI In most Counties of England many hundred Persons to one must have Church Communion in the Parish Churches or have none at all And to renounce all Church Worship and Communion rather than joyn in the Parish Churches and with the Lyturgy and to persuade all to do so is almost to draw the Land to live like Atheists And is so pernicious to Souls that no good Christian should favour it And it is a-gross breach of the Covenant which renounceth Prophaneness Schism and all that is contrary to godliness XXVII So much are Papists angry at Protestant Ministers that keep them out of the Parish Churches reviling them as Trimmers supposing that Conventicles can do them less harm that all that love the Protestant Religion should do their best to encourage all such Orthodox Men and to strengthen the Protestant interest in the Parish Churches and not joyn against them with the Papists however it be with other intents and minds XXVIII So great is the peace and comfort of many Parishes where the publick Ministers and all the Religious People live together in Love and Amity that it loudly tells us how much better that is than to study to render each other odious or vile and excommunicable XXIX Such use of godly publick Ministers may well stand with the best improvement we can make of the private help of others XXX If we would win any that we think worst of yea or ease our selves it must be by love to them and not by condemning them on controvertible accounts or by causeless singularities XXXI It is lawful to have transient Communion with an occasional Assembly of Christians that are no fixed Church nor the Minister the fixed Pastor of any particular Church XXXII It is lawful to have transient Communion with a Church of Strangers or Neighbours without taking an account of the calling of their Pastors or of their Discipline XXXIII When we have right to Gods Ordinances if many intrude that have no right when we cannot hinder it we must not therefore forsake our right or Gods Worship XXXIV Though we must prefer better before worse that worse may be best to us at that time and place when we cannot have better without more hurt than benefit to the publick or our selves Among many Ministers weak and strong all cannot hear the best nor must renounce the weaker To live under the countenance of Government under an honest Minister of mean Parts in Peace and Concord though he use the Lyturgy is more to the common advantage of Religion and to the profit of most particular Souls than to hear an abler Man with the distraction of Disturbers and to be Fined and lie in Prison on no better a Cause XXXV It is not only the Law of Man that maketh the foresaid Parish Communion a Duty but it is Gods Law of Love Concord Peace and Universal Communion if there were no constraining Law of Man XXXVI They that constantly refuse Communion in the publick Churches while it is commanded and while many write to prove it sinful and many are in Prison and ruined for refusing it are justly to be interpreted to hold it to be unlawful unless they openly profess the contrary and give some better reason for their forbearance XXXVII To hold that any Congregations are such whose Worship is faulty but such as God forgiveth and accepteth but that it is unlawful for us to joyn with them lest it make us guilty of their sin this though it should be

despise them but to receive them to our Communion as Christ receiveth us Rom. 14 15. Approving all so far that serve God in that which his Kingdom doth consist in Rom. 14. 17 18. VI. All Christians must earnestly oppose Divisions and Sects and sidings with Strife and Envy as a sign of Carnal Men and must labour to be perfectly joined together in the same mind and judgment and to glorify God with one mind and mouth 1 Cor. 1. 10. 3. 3 c. And must not forsake the assembling of themselves Heb. 10. 25. VII It is by Love that the whole Body of Christ must edify itself and win and overcome their Adversaries even those that curse and hate and persecute them as God doth good to the just and unjust Love being the most powerful Conquerour of Hearts Eph. 4. 15 16. Matth. 5. 44 c. VIII No excellency of one Party above others nor no faultiness of any Christians must be pretended against any duty of Love and Communion But we must not sin for Communion with any IX Though we must not by profession word or subscription own the sin of any Church we must join in their Communion in the Worship of God with those whose Worship is mixt with sin in matter and manner so it be not sin that is by its evil predominant against the good of the duty to make the work rejected of God like Poyson in our food which makes the hurt greater than the good because else we must neither Worship God our selves nor join with any in the world All the works of sinful men being mixt with sin To deny this is virtually to separate from all the Christian world X. Therefore our bare presence is no signification that we approve all that is done in that Assembly The very nature of Christian Communion is a profession of the contrary we being bound by God to communicate in good and not to own the evil And if men command us to own all that they there do their command cannot bind us against Gods nor make our presence a profession that we obey them against God It being God that is the Master of us and our work And Christianity itself being a profession that we obey God before Man Else Man by commanding us to own some ill word or circumstance might drive us from all Christian Communion If Men should command us in our private Meetings to do it for an ill end or an ill Principle as in Obedience to Usurpers we must not therefore forbear all private Meetings nor will our bare meeting signify our Obedience to such Commands If the Pastor of a single Church or many Associate tell the people your meeting must be to own e. g. Anabaptistry Antinomianism Presbytery Erastianism Separation c. this binds them not either to own it or to withdraw without some greater reason He is no Master of their Faith XI Nor will the bare knowing beforehand that the Pastor will say or do somewhat unlawful make our presence guilty of approving it We know before-hand that we and all Men are sinners and shall sin in what we do And we may suppose Men will speak as they think And as we know not but any Man may speak amiss till we hear what he saith so when we know that the Pastors have tolerable Errours and will vent them it will not make us guilty of their sin nor bind us to depart We meet to own Christianity and not all that the Man will say or do known or unknown I know before that I shall have many faults in my own Prayer disorder dulness c. which I do not own though herein I am guilty XII Yet no Man should prefer worse before better if all things set together it be better indeed to the Person at that time XIII God hath by his Son Iesus and his Apostles instituted all that in Doctrine Discipline Worship and Conversation which is obligatory or necessary Universally to all the Church over and above what is required by the Law of Nature And no Man or Men have power to add any thing of universal obligation XIV God hath by Nature and Scripture obliged Men themselves to choose and determine divers subordinate expressions significations modes circumstances or accidents of this universal Religion which are not themselves meet for an universal and unchangeable obligation but local temporary and mutable Some of which every Man may choose for himself some the present Pastor must choose some the associated Pastors may choose and some the Magistrate may choose These must be added to the universal Duties so far is such addition from being sin I have often named many particulars As the Translation of the Scripture which to choose The version of the Psalms in rithme or metre the common use of new made Hymns the dividing the Scripture into Chapter and Verse the words of Sermons their method the particular Text to be chosen what Chapters to read at what hour to begin how long to Preach in what words to pray whether the same oft or changed whether fore-studied or not whether written or unwritten whether studied and written by our selves or by others where the place shall be where the Pulpit Font Table c. shall stand what Ornaments they shall have Linnen Silk silver Vessels or otherwise Whether we be bare-headed or covered at Prayer Sacrament c. Whether we shall kneel stand sit or be prostrate at Prayer c. what distinctive Garments Pastors shall use By what signs of consent and obligation Men vow and swear whether by putting the hand under the Thigh lifting it up subscribing laying it on the Book kissing the Book c. what Catechisms to use with many more such God hath commanded men to choose such things as these by the Rules of Edification Love Peace Concord Order Decency winning those without c. XV. These may be called Worship in a sense subservient to Gods Ordinances of Worship as we Worship Men by putting off the Hat kneeling bowing c But if any will not call it Worship they must not call it false Worship nor pretend that the Controversy is any more than about the bare name XVI They that feign such things as these to be sinful additions and an invading of Christs Office and denying his faithfulness c. condemn the Scripture that commandeth such determinations and contradict the Law of Nature and the practice of all Churches on Earth and would exterminate all Gods Worship which cannot be performed without some such determinations XVII As God hath not tied us to words in Prayer or Preaching though he have recorded many forms in Scripture but left all to choose what words time and circumstances make fit by Book or without so the conveniences and inconveniences both of set forms and of free speaking are on each part so great and undenyable that we have no cause to censure that Church which useth both that is which agreeth on a set form to

cannot have the best Translation is not to keep to the Rule but most grosly to violate it in the greatest Commands against many Scripture Admonitions which vehemently urge you to Love and Unity But good friend if really Christ and Scripture be your Guide I desire no more tell me and lay by partiality Did not Christ and his Apostles use both in the Synagogues Church Meetings and Writings a faulty Translation of the Old Testament and as bad as ours Deny it if you can for shame Though sometimes they varyed they mostly used the Septuagint according to which our faulty Translation of the Old Testament is made as it differs from the Hebrew Is this no Consutation of you Yea Christ and the Apostles used it the rather because it was in common use 2. And are you sure that among so many Greek differing Copies as we have of the New Testament that you use and follow none but the best I would add a similitude supposing that we had just possession of the Publick Church-place● Tythes they are taken from us we can blame them that did it and say over and over We had Possession and therefore it is unlawful to meet in worse Rooms for God must have the best will this hold when you cannot keep possession Will you rather worship no where This is no better than if you would tell all men they should die rather than eat Brown Bread if force take all other from them because it is unjustly done and they had possession of better Good friends keep your possession for me but I own not the famishing of all that are dispos●e●sed If you do I do not Obj. But this case is unlike to that of Lyturgies Answ. 1. The Scripture is Gods own Word A mis-translation maketh that to be his word that is not which sure is a tenderer matter than in what words we speak our own minds to God ●ure a depravation of Scripture is more than a Ceremony Were Lyturgies such an alteration of Gods own words you would more plausibly accuse them One that said God said this or that which he said not was worse tha● one that spake his own words undecently to God To say this is Gods word which i● not is indeed adding to it but so it is not to speak words as our own How much the Septuagint differs from the Hebrew how many Verses it leaveth out how many additions and alterations it maketh is commonly known Christs and the Apostles use of this was no approbation of its faults much less their presence in the Synagogues when others read Moses and the Prophets in them And the Psalms in the Septuagint Translation were part of their Lyturgy For man to speak faultily is no wonder It hath a more plausible pretence for Separation to say that men corrupt the word of God And yet when it is but such an Effect of Humane Imperfection it is no just pretence But yet a word more Qu. 1. Do you think that the Pharisees and Scribes had so much of the gift of Extemporate Prayer that they could and did use to make long Prayers as if it were by the Spirit Extempore Say so and you will disgrace the Doctors Arguments that lay so much on this manner of praying No doubt but it was Forms and Lyturgies that they used yet when Christ condemneth them for praying in the streets to be seen and using long prayer for a pretence to devour Widdows houses Qu. 2. Did Christ speak one word against them as Forms or Lyturgies Did he want Zeal or Knowledge Q. 3. Had they not been good in themselves what cloak could they have made for so great evil Qu. 4. Did Christ or his Apostles ever forbear the Synagogues for the sake of these long Lyturgies Come friends there is no end nor much hope in disputing against fixed prejudice and wrong confident Conceits how clear soever the Light be against it Hold your Judgment and I shall hold mine till God irresistibly reconcile us and if you cannot forgive me I can forgive you but not own the guilt of your mistakes and the Effects I have too much already of my own I had rather you accused me than Conscience for wilful contracting any more The Lord save us from our Enemies but more especially from our Friends and all their Temptations and above all from our selves It amazeth me to hear wise and godly men say It is Popery that is coming in upon us Ergo Let us all forsake the Parish-Churches Quasi die The Enemy will take the City within these few years Ergo Let us all go out of it to day Like him that killed himself for fear of dying some years hence Dementation goeth before Perdition Who knoweth not that the Religion of the parish-Parish-Churches is like to be the National Religion And shall we persuade Protestants to leave them all Passion provoked by some mens badness hath too much conquered Love to Conformists in some mens minds so that they scruple not too uncharitable opinions and words of them This is contrary to Christian Love I doubt not but there are hundreds of godly Conformable Ministers in England On Aug. 24. 1662. Seven thousand or more did Conform that had been kept in in the Parliaments time were all those seven thousand tolerable the year before and ungodly the next year Many Conformists now in London were taken for very good men in 1659. At once the other extream most study to get them out and shall we also call all men on pain of hazarding their Souls to forsake them A very great Church-man above 40 years ago was heard say to his Brethren The Non-conformable Puritans are Snakes We have the Law against them and can tread them down when we will But it is the Conformable Puritan that is the Devil of England to be cast out And shall we second this and that as in opposition to it Grace is lost as far as Christian impartial Love is lost And they that lose Religion themselves which lyeth in Love are like to be no good Keepers of it in the Church If a good Man that we value become a danger to the truth we are angry if his Errour be but contradicted lest his Name be blemished But some dare say the Conformists are all false ready to betray the Church to Papists who nowdo far more to keep them out then we do This is against Iam. 3. 17. If there be any such Conformists high or low I am none of their Advocate God will find them out and judge them But I am confident that it is also Conformists by the advantage of their Possession that will do more to stop their desired success than Nonconformists can do I am sure Bishop Iewel Usher Morton Hall Downame Davenant c. were far from Popery And what man living hath written stronglier against it than Dr. Isaac Barrow against whose Book a Doctor hath newly dasht his Reputation as a bubble against a Rock And what the