constrainedlie confessed faith BAR. This distinction of AVGSTINE will deceiue you for how should the vnlawfull vngodlie actions of anie past be iustified by his faith following Faith doth not iustifie but forsake transgression Againe how should they be said to haue Faith or to haue left their sinnes which still cōtinue in the same cōfusion disorder false ministrie false worshipp false gouernment SPER. They doe not so BAR. I will prooue all this in due order And first that you haue the same people their seede in the same confusion GREEN All the land is now of your Church SPER. It is not so BAR. All the Queenes naturall subiects that dwell in anie Parish are of your Church because euerie Parish is of your Church SPER. All the Queenes subiects that dwell in our parishes are not of our Church BAR. They are of the parish Therfore of the Church SPER. There dwell manie papists that are not of our Church BAR. Euen those papists are of your Church And thus I prooue it None but those of the Church may offer in the Church or haue anie communion vvith the Saints or haue anie interest in the ministrie But the papists communicate vvith your Church ◅aue interest in the ministrie in that they contribute togither vvith the parish vnto the ministrie Therfore the papists that dwell amonge you are of your Church SPER. Whie is it not lawfull for the Minister to be maintained with the goods of vnbeleeuers BAR. Vnbeleeuers haue nothing a doe neither are bound to the maintenance of the ministrie This contribution is called in the new Testament a dutie communion of the Saints an offering sweete odoure vnto God But vnbeleeuers may haue no spirituall communion with the Saints neither may offer with them in the Church neither haue interest or anie thinge to do with the ministrie Therfore may not be bounde nor receiued to contribute vnto the maintenance of the ministrie SPER. I denie that BAR. Whie it is prooued by all these reasons Further it is expresslie forbidden Leuit. 22. 25. that the Priest might not receiue anie maner of offering were it neuer so perfect at the hand of a stranger Therfore much lesse may the Minister of Christ. Mr. Sperin in reading the text would giue no iudgment of it vntill he had further considered therof BAR. I will prooue it by a necessarie reason vnto you None that was not a Iewe or come vnto the faith might enter into the Tēple much lesse contribute or offer in the Temple At this time M r. EGERTON entered whoe beinge set downe with them made acquainted with the present discourse they proceeded as followeth The place of Leuit. being read againe further enforced thus The oblations of the vvicked are an obhomination vnto the Lord. But the tithes contributions of the papists are oblations of the vvicked Therfore thei are an abhomination c. SPER. But may not the minister receiue anie gifts of vnbeleeuers BAR. Yea they may receiue or inherit ciuile things that are giuen by or belonged to vnbeleeuers SPER. It is w◅itten 1. Cor. 10. If the vnbeleeuers bidd you to a feast c. eate making no question GREEN We doubt not but all Christians may receiue in priuate or Ciuill respects the goods or beneuolence of vnbeleeuers But you must put difference betwene that contribution in cōmunion to with the Church and ciuile priuate ben◅volence SPER. The Apostle Gala. 6. vvilleth all that are taught in the vvord to communicate of their goods vnto them that teach them But the papists are taught by vs in the vvord Therfore they may contribute vnto vs in our ministrie GREEN This place is to be vnderstood of such as are receiued into taught in the Church not of all them that are without the Church heare the ministrie therof The Apostle gaue not this rule to them BAR. The recusant papists are not instructed of you th'other papists are both instructed and they their seede admitted vnto the sacraments But all contribute pay tythes so are all of your Church SPER. In my Parish I admitt no papists or open vnworthie vnto the Sacraments GREEN Your Parish hath as yet made no seperatiō from the papists or prophane of the lande Therfore you do not seperate the vnworthie SPER. They are now beleeuers that before were vnbeleeuers they now professe willinglie that before professed by constraint and If ther be anie wicked I put them from the Sacraments BAR. You so fix your eies vpon your owne assertions as that you giue no eare to other mens reasons How oft hath this bene denied disprooued vnto you you haue neuer as yet made anie seperatiō but still remaine in the stepps sinnes of your fore-fathers neither haue you anie power to seperate anie from amonge you SPER. I haue power and doe put the wicked from the Sacraments BAR. What your selfe alone SPER. Yea with the consent of the Church BAR. I shewed you the last day what kinde of instrument your suspention puttinge from the Sacraments is you your parish haue not the power to ◅xcommunicat anie SPER. This is not true we haue power do excommunicat BAR. It is thē by the power of the BB s. not by the power of Christ. SPER. It is not by the power of the Bishopps but by the power of Christ. BAR. That is not so you haue neither power from Christ nor from the Bishopps to excommunicat anie you haue leaue in your seruice-booke to suspend from your sacrament but not to excommunicat without the Bishop SPER. We do excommunicat without the Bishop BAR. Then your Church hath two maner of excommunications SPER. That followeth not the Bishopps excomunication is but an approbation of ours BAR. That is not so The Bishop hath power to excommunicate when whom he will of your Parish that without your priuitie or consent Moreouer the Bishopps do excōmunicate by a latine writt but if your excomunication be such then is it Amichristian if it be after another maner then haue you two sorts of excōmunications in your Church SPER. When anie deserueth to be excommunicated then I the Church-wardens present such to the Bishop he excōmunicateth them BAR. Then the Bishop excōmunicateth not you you are but as they that gi◅e euidence information to the Iudg The Bishop is the Iudg. GREEN The Bishop doth not excōmunicate vpon your information neither for anie sinne how heinous soeuer But only for not appeeringe at or disobeying their Courts Moreouer as the Ordinary doth excōmunicat so doth he absolue whom he list without the priuitie of your Congregacōn EGERT SPER. The Bishop his excōmunication is but a Ciuile discōmunion BAR. GREEN What will you make the excōmunication of your Church a Ciuile action we neuer heard of anie such excomunication vntill Cooper Gwalter published their conceites therof EGER. SPE May not the Ciuile magistrate approueth ' excōmunication of the
how can you be thought or dare you affirme to haue repeted this error in your entrance into your ministrie when you still pleade for iustifie that calling by the ciuile magistrate when you confesse it repugnant vnto condemned in the Testamet of CHRIST how can you be said to haue repented it when you still reteine it stand administer by yt and ioyne vnto such as still enter that way neither in deed haue you aâ—…ie other calling vnto your ministerie in your Church make it therfore either good or euill lawfull or vnlawfull by the word of God let vs bring it to the triall SPER. I stand not so much by their calling as by the calling of God by whom I am enabled to my ministrie BAR. This is Anabapâ—…isticall to iustifie open transgression by the inward conscience or gyftes might not anie thus vsurpe the ciuile magistrates office also by theiâ—… inward gyftes wisdome knowledg fitness c. but God hath ordeined a lawfull calling to euery lawfull office which may at no haÌ„d be seuered from the office which calling who so wanteth taketh honour to himself to administer c. breaketh the boundes of God vsurpeth You haue no giftes which you haue not receiued of God God knoweth his owne giftes which he hath gyuen to euery one best whom hâ—… seeth meete hath appointed to the ministerie vnto such he alwayes gyueth a lawfull calling vnto the ministerie wherfore you must eyther approue your calling by the word of God or els be held 〈◊〉 vsurper for all your giftes SPER. The BB s. tolerate manie thinges with vs. BAR. They allow nothing but their owne proceedings neither doth the land receiue or alow anie other SPER. I say not allow they may suffer that they allow not BAR. Here is good worke emongst you they tolerate with you you subscribe vnto them thus are you togeather in conspiracie against CHRIST SPER. Will you say that M r. EGERTON Mr. GARDINER are not true ministers of the Gospell because they haue no such calling as you require BAR. I require no other calling then CHRIST enioyneth which calling if they want as I am sure they do I dare affirme that they do not serue Christ in the ministrie of the Gospell all extraordinarie offices callings thervnto being now ceased SPER. All the Churches learned in EVROPE giue vs consent and allow vs for Ministers BAR. But vntill you approue your selues such by the word of God yt will nothing auaile you SPER. Our giftes Doctrines approue our ministrie Did you euer heare M r. EGERTON M r. GARDINER BAR. You still oppose your giftes against God hold the faith in respect of mens persons The meÌ„ you speake of I neuer heard in their ministerie but I know them by their ministerie to be notable Sectories false Teachers SPER. They be men of singuler giftes how can you gyue out this of them know them not neither euer heard them teach BAR. I am taught to know the tree by the fruit a false Minister by his antichristian entrance office administration all which are notably found vppon them vppon you all neither will I say that the one of theÌ„ bought his Benefice or that the other hath bene conuinced of false Doctrines by his owne Auditorye sondry times SPER. The first hath repented that you haue the other but by hearesay they are knowne to be learned men such as teach sound Doctrines BAâ—… My hearesay hath better proofe then your know But how can theis or anie of you teach sound Doctrine sincerely in a false ministerie BALAAM the Pharises SataÌ„ himself had hath as great giftes learning as they or anie of you But if we would come euen to this preaching you boste of I suppose more corrupt Teachers cannot be found in anie age then these they teaching nothing almost truly much lesse sincerely SPER. I teach Christ Iesus very God very man him crucified that truly BAR. I will not presse you with anie Argumentes drawne from your false entrance administracoÌ„n all which vndoubtedly coÌ„uince that you cannot preach CHRIST soundly yet is there no heretike that holdeth not some trueth But this I affirme will approue that you deny the whole anointing of CHRIST in his three Offices of KING PRIEST PROPHET and therfore you deny CHRIST to be come in the flesh cannot preach him soundly I graunt indeed that you preach him crucified in your Sermons Church buffetâ—…d skourged crâ—…wned with thornâ—…s by â—…ayling blasphâ—…ming impriâ—…ning le is faithfull witnesses seruants dayly at all handâ—…s you preach him blindfoulded by drawing a vaile ouer his facâ—… that the pâ—…ople should not see to th'end of his ministerie not one of you either Priest or people as yet knowing what belongeth to a true professioÌ„ a true CoÌ„munion a true Office or a tâ—…ue entrance much lesse to true administration CHRIST crucified you all abhorr you caÌ„not abide his crosse you will not suffer or abide by anie trueth but dayly seeke new cauills distinctions and â—…uasions to hide anie trueth which bringeth dâ—…nger or to auoide the crosse of CHRIST therfore you shall not reigne with him It were an infinite thing to reckon vp the diuerfitie of opinions sectes errors that are found emongst you of the ministrie it being almost an vnpossible thing to finde two of you of one â—…udgment or anie one of you constant to your selues except it be in euill one preaching one Doctrine in one place another the quite contrary in another place yâ—…a some of your chief Teachers haue preached pâ—…linodaÌ„ concerning your ministerie Sacramentes of your Church But I would now know what office these men you speake of or your self do execute SPER. M r. EGERTON is a Doctor Mr. GARDINER my sâ—…lf are pastors BAR. Your Church of England hath no such office as the Teachers Office yt hath no other then Vniuersitie Doctors which are not in anie office or therby Ministers I wene also he hath a dumbe Minister one that cannot preach for his Pastor so that he is a hireling Curat no Christian Teacher As for M r. GARDINER your self you be parish Parsons therfore cannot be held christian Pastors SPER. I deny your Argument it followeth not because they are termed Parsons therfore they are not Pastors BAR. Both the name Office are diuerse therfore not the same SPER. The Parson is called in latine Rector Ecclesiae which name properly agreeth to the Pastor BAR. Your latine name is popish one of the names of blasphemie written vppon the heades of the Beast for CHRIST hath appointed many to the office of gouerning ouerseeing not the Pastor only And therfore this name is not proper to the Pastor SPER. The Pastor should gouerne the Church BAR. But the Pastor is not to gouerne yt alone there are others ioyned in Commission with him therfore he cannot in this maner
fessed enemies of CHRIST of his gospell such whom your self hath confessed to be Antichristian with whō you haue not ōly sit amongst the other Commissioners in Caiaphas house but also by an especiall ticket according to their Mandat◅ were sent out amongest the chosen bande of their guard to feight against the poore persecuted witnesses of Christ yea amongst the rest of your subornate witnesses to lay in wayte against the bloud of the Saints endeuoring by the deepe learning of Sa◅an to entangle them into the same counterfet walking with your self as also by your Sophisticall distinctiōs to obscure turne away the truth peruerting cōfounding al Gods ordinaces calling light darkenes darknes light labouring to perswade that one mā may execute both ciuile ecclesiastical offices at once Yea though he so do yet his ministrie in both of thē is lawfull Likewise that though one man executed sondry Offices of the Church at one tyme yet this his ministerie in them all is lawfull also Yea though the Bishop execute a strange tyrānicall ministerie neuer read nor heard of in the Testament of CHRIST vsurping authoritie ouer so manie Churches Pastors possessing the very Chaire of ANTICHRIST corrupting changing the whole ministerie and Ordinances of the Gospel c Yet are they to be esteemed true Ministers of CHRIST their ministeriall actions good Theis sondrye other enormous blasphemous Doctrines you strowed emongst vs and sought to confirme them by these such lyke poysoned distinctions Not simplie euell Not simply vnlawfull Good in parte Though it be vnlawfull to execute diuerse Offices yet are not his actions therein vnlawfull Though his Office he executeth in the Church be vnlawfull yet are his ministeriall actions lawfull Of the substance of the essen c. without which you cannot reason nor by the euident testimonie of Gods word approue your doings vnto all men Now let the christian or but indifferent Reader iudge of the leauen poyson of theis distinctions cauills of what spirit they proced and by whom they are vsed whither by you or by vs. As for the opinions name of Browne there is no cause you should vpbraid vs therwith he being a mā with whom we had neuer anie thing to doe neither may haue in this estate of his Apostacy He is now a member of your Church toward whom we thinke you walke not according to CHRISTS rule neither yet deale brotherly with him much lesse as beseemeth a guyde teacher of the Church thus to publish raile of your Brother Browne without and before christian admonition orderly censure But hauing thus behaued your self towards him that is so ◅ere vnto you we must not think it strange if you multiplie your reproches vppon vs that are deuided so far from you as Sion is from Babilon Cōcerning that Conference or rather that summe of our conference this we say We in all louing maner sent it vnto you to peruse correct or to shew your dislike wherein you iudged it faultye Yea we gaue you free lybertie if you disliked anie of those answers which you then made vnto our reasons to alter chaunge them as your self vppon better aduise should thinke meete so loath were we to gyue you the least cause of offence so desirous to haue the truth further brought to light which if you had performed with that faithfullnes and modestie that beseemed you we expected in so high causes then had you not gayned this iust blame publick infamie you now by these your dealings haue brought vppon your self But in steade of this loe you haue pronounced the whole wryting which we sent feyned Some things there vvanting vvhich vvere spoken Manie things there expressed vvhich vv◅re neuer spoken nor imagined by you And most things there spoken peruer◅ed by ◅s Finally you found it so full of partialitye so voide of vpright and true dealing and so far out of order as you haue neither leisure nor lust to deale vvith yt First we say there was no cause you should expect to haue euery thing wrytten that was then spoken both in regard of our fraile slippery memories as also that we signified vnto you our intent to be but to summe vp the discourse of such cheif pointes as were then handled willingly passing by other impertinent and lesse necessarie speaches But yet if you can call anie to remembrance which may anie way benefit you or preiudice vs if you shall signifie them vnto vs we will most willingly insert them For the order we will not greatly contend because it is of lytle moment vnto vs Yet is there cause we should aswell remember it as you because we were both alyke in the action had the Propositions before vs which you knowe were writtē as the matters fell out in handling But now touching your other chardges of adding peruerting falsefying c. Surely if theis things stoode thus great were our sinne toward God towards you Yea woe vnto our selues if we should walke vvith such festered consciences Hovv should vve thē appeare before God or men vvith comfort Though the measure of our gyfts be smale yet God accepteth the vvorke of his ovvne Spirit We need not neither euer did defend his most plaine pure truth against the most subtile malignant aduersaries vvith lyes falsefying sclaundering c. muchlesse in this actiō as you chardg vs. No God is vvitnesse vnto our consciences vvith vvhat care vprightnes vve haue set dovvne these things being guyltie to our selues of no such crimes as you accuse vs. Yea for our further clearing herein vve haue set dovvne no one poynt of importance vvhich vve tooke not in vvryting from your ovvne mouthes euen before your eyes read it in your presence and in the hearing of sondry honest vvitnesses vvhich Propositions vvitnesses still remaine to be produced in record of the truth against you or vs vvherein vve depart frō the same And surely much better had you prouided for your ovvne credit and much more impeached ours if you had set downe some perticulers vvherin vve had thus falsified peruerted before you had in this maner reproched vs especially being requested thervnto by vs vvho not trusting to much to our ovvne memories first sent our Copie vnto the vvitnesses then vnto you to correct or reproue vvhat you dislyked or thought amisse therein vve being alvvayes ready most desirous to alter it according to the truth But you as though there were no Iudge in heauē no witnesses in earth of the things that passed betwixt vs haue most boldlye without all feare shame or truth denied euē what your owne mouth vttered accusing vs as voide of all vprightnes true dealing full of partialitie c. and all to hide your owne corrupt estate the vanitie weaknes of your defenses from the eyes of the world Not being able nor daring to produce or alledge anie one pointe in perticuler
Prophets yet you will not say that they were not ordinary Magistrates GRE. Euery Prophet was not a Minister of the teÌ„ple in the priests office COOP. SPER. The Prophetts office vvas a ministeriall office BAR. None but Leuites might bâ—… Ministers of the Tabernacle buâ—… ther were manie Prophetts which were not of the tribe of Leui. But what is this to our purpose was not MOSES IOSEPH theis others ciuile Magistrates M r. COOPER will you confesse your error COOP. They were no ordinarie Magistrates BAR. Yt is euident they were ciuile Magistrats ordinary excellent magistrats according to the reuealed will of GOD. But you will yâ—…ild vnto no truth but cauil perueâ—…slie against the euident Scriptures Amongst mich coÌ„fused speach that passed betwixt M r. SPERIN me HENRY BARROVV after that our conference was broken vp in following his last assertion That he held not himself a Minister by tâ—…e Bishops Ordination vntill he had the â—…pprobation of the people He first coÌ„fessed the BB s. ordinatioÌ„ to be a ciuile constitution Then that the Bishops by the Princes Commandement may ordeyne Ministers by their sole authority Because Timoâ—…hi Tiâ—…us did ordenie Elders alone When it was alleadged that Timothi Titus did ordeine them according to the Apostles constitutions and as the Apostles themselues vsed to do which alwaies was by the free election of the flocke 1. Cor. 4. 17. Act. 1â—… 23. he said that Timothi Titus as also the Apostles wâ—…re Ministers alone without the peoples electioÌ„ And that the world 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 14. 23. had relation vnto the Apostles that liâ—…ed vp their hands before they laid them on and not vnto the people that lifted vp their â—…andes to signifie their approbation in the election He said that if â—…o bâ—… this Act. 14. were to be vnderstood of the peoples election yâ—…t theâ—… were no morâ—… places to proue that the 〈◊〉 ought to chuse their Ministers Being demaunded what he thought of Acts. 1. Acts. 6. of 1. Timoâ—… 3. Titus 1. he said that Acts. 6. was but of Deacons onlie and as for the other places they proued not that the people might chuse their Elders Being demauÌ„ded who then were to make choise probation of the Elders he said that Timothi Titus in those chapters Being asked who now was to succeed Timothi Tiâ—…us seing they had lest no heires apparaÌ„t behind them he said the BB s. were to chuse ordeine them who now being old and able to take no more paynes were to gouerne ouer manie Churches as they did Being asked of 1. Timoth. 3. vers 10. who was to chuse and make probatioÌ„ there he confessed that the Church being asked whether that rule of probation belonged not also were spoken of Elders in like maner he said no. but onlie of Deacons being asked if the woâ—…d hosâ—…utos in the 8. verse had not relation vnto the â—…ame chusers and gaue not now rules vnto them concerning Deacons also And how he could by that chapter make anie distinction or shew whie the former rules â—…oÌ„cerning the chusing of Elders should not aswell belong vnto the Church as theis concerning Deacons or whie if the former belonged vnto Timothi theis also should not belong vnto Timothiâ—… he answeared still that the Church was to chuse Deacons but not Elders In furder discourse of theis rules for the gifts maners rules of the conuersatioÌ„ life of theis Elders which were such as could be knowne vnto examined by none but by the church where they liued which shewed that theis rules of their Election were giuen â—…nto the Church wherin Timothie was rather to help instruct the Church then anie way to plucke away the power authoritie interest of the church he answeared that Timothi could onlie best try the gifts learning of theis Ministers and therfore the choise approbation were giuen to him onlie Being demâ—…unded whether ther were not manie rules concerning sondrie christian vertues of manners conuersation towards all men of the gouerning of themselues of their wiues children families which belonged were Common to the teaching and gouerninge Elders which the Church wheâ—… they liâ—…ed could only best iudge He said that 1. Timothi 3. Titus 1. were onlie wriâ—…ten vnderstood of Pâ—…stors Teachers because yt is ther said a Bâ—…hop must bâ—… didacticos which is onlie peâ—…ulier vnto the Pastor Teacher Neither would he yeild though yt were shewed him that the name care of Elders were common vnto all aswell the gouerning as teaching Elders that most of the rules accorded vnto them indifferently Acts â—…0 Furder that he could shew no â—…ther rules iâ—… the Testament of CHRIST for the election of the gouerning Elders then there Wherupon he fell into this grosse opinioÌ„ also That those Elders Deâ—…cons were one office Not vnderstaÌ„ding Ro. 12. 8. 1. Tim. 5. 17. Phil. 1. 1. Retorning againe vnto the BB s. being demauÌ„ded by what warraÌ„t they may vsurpe this inordinate power ouer all the churches In processe of speach he was driueÌ„ to acknowledge yt onlie to be by the Princes authoritie not by the Testament of CHRIST so held them to be meerly ciuile Being demaunded what theÌ„â—…e thought of their ministerie SacrameÌ„ts which they deliuered he awhile denying that they medled with the Sacraments or ministrie in th' end being pressed because they in all the Parishes of their diocesses did might at their pleasure preach and deliuer the Sacraments whether the Church Parson would or no yea they will make the Parson follow them with the Cupp booke yea the B. will scilence suspend or remoue what Minister or Parson he list Here M â— SPERIN said that the Bishop did not neither should administer anie Sacraments in his Pâ—…rish Thus vvith one breath he affirming and denying grauâ—…ting and retracting I â—…old him that I vvould not from hencefourth 〈◊〉 more reason or Confâ—…r vvith him vntill he brought a better Conscience vvith him To coÌ„clude seing he neither vnderstood the Scriptures wherof he so bouldlie affirmed or denied seing he vnderstood not the verie first Doctrines beginnings of CHRIST as the Doctrines of laying on of hands of Election ordination c. neither yet knewe so mich as the offices that belonged to the Church of CHRIST he was altogeather vnworthie vnfit to be a teacher or exercise anie gouernment in the Church of CHRIST Saying that God would er long shew who were fitt Ministers to drawe neere vnto him He said vnto me that I medled which more then I needed and that I did but take a wolf by the eares I said that he abused and vnderstood not that Prouerbe also that I did not immiscere alienae liti That yt was a matter of mine owne saluation that I stood for in refusing all subiection or CoÌ„munion with ANTICHRIST his detestable enormities that euerie true Christian ought to